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10N giveaway - Evm Finance
Recorded: Nov. 15, 2023 Duration: 1:01:01Space Recording
Full Transcription
Alex, can you hear me well?
I can hear you, Max.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
I have some weird things going on from IA and I see you dropping, coming back, but I guess
as long as you're here, it doesn't matter.
So just a quick little intro, guys, today we have a very interesting space, it's going
to be with Quantify Crypto with my friend Alex, I'm not sure, is EVM Finance is still part
of the picture?
Yes, yes it is, but we do everything to Quantify Crypto's Twitter account, so yeah, I'm here
on their account.
Make sure to all follow Quantify Crypto Twitter account as well as, let me just pin up the
link to the space really quick so everyone can retweet it, like it, tag all the friends,
do all the right things.
And yeah, we already have 20 people listening to us live, so thanks everyone for tuning
in, excited for the space, going to discuss a lot, a lot of different topics.
Me and Alex, we actually met in real life at a NIR event, so definitely curious to see
how have things progressed since then.
And yeah, since we have a lot of people already, let's jump into it.
I mean, first of all, how have you been, man?
How is everything going?
How is everything with you?
Just tell us.
Yeah, man, it's been good.
I'm back in New York.
It's been a few months since the NIR conference, but I haven't been to too many events, but yeah,
just continuing to build and develop stuff and just getting going with life.
What about you, man?
What have you been up to?
Well, you see, just doing all the things NIR.
We've had a lot of interesting stuff happening in the ecosystem.
I'm not sure if you've been following NIR specifically, but there was NDC, right?
So there has been like elections and participated in those, keep doing my spaces, you know, now
also helping NDC figure out their stuff with social media and a lot of interesting developments
going on in general.
But yeah, let's jump into it.
And for our listeners here, maybe before we talk about Evium Finance and Quantify Crypto
and all the other interesting things, if you could give a little bit of your personal background
or maybe professional background in that sense, like what has your journey in crypto been?
How did you get involved with this?
And what brought you where you are right now?
Yeah, so I got into crypto in like eight years ago in like 2016.
My dad and I, we were both being traders and we decided to start Quantify Crypto together
to basically bring a mix of features together on a single website.
Kind of like basically at the time we started, this was like early 2018.
And so there weren't really super advanced research tools out there.
And we kind of wanted to like make something that combined features from TradingView and CoinMarketCap
to kind of have a good trader experience.
And at the time we started, DeFi wasn't really a thing.
And so we later down the line when DeFi summer started kicking off,
we began to integrate DeFi Featureshot Ethereum in 2020.
And then in 2021, we launched EDM Finance Domain and really went more heavy on doing a multi-chain DeFi.
And that's kind of like how we got to like going in here or how I got going in here
was because they have some interesting DeFi ecosystem things.
And yeah, I knew Cameron from going down to Miami.
And so he invited me and I'm happy that I got the opportunity to go there and connect with you.
And yeah, it brings us to today.
And what do you think about the state of DeFi across the blockchain ecosystem in general
and specifically in Nier as of today?
As of today, I think DeFi in general kind of lacks.
I think it's too decentralized.
And when I say that, I mean like each different ecosystem is kind of in its own silo
and there's very little interoperability between them.
I know there's a lot of bridges, but most of them get hacked and stuff.
I know Nier's Rainbow Bridge has not ever had a security incident, which is good.
But I think, yeah, the state of DeFi is that there's really lots of like Uniswap V2 clones on every chain.
And what's it called?
The SushiSwap MasterChef like token minkers stuff is like pretty repetitive and boring.
And so we're trying to like, I don't know, I want to see like something new.
But I think DeFi is kind of stagnated and there's not really much innovation.
And yeah.
But for the state of it on Nier, I'd say I like what the Rainbow Bridge offers in its ability to make smart contracts that utilize state data from another chain.
I think it's a very underutilized and under talked about thing.
But in the future, I think moving to a world where there's like multi-chain contracts and the DeFi is like applications are built with the idea that they will be used by contracts and stuff on other chains is where I see it heading.
And I think Nier is like positioned well to capitalize on that paradigm that will be in the future.
Speaking of that, actually, have you seen that DabDab.net?
DabDab?
No, I have not.
So I think you basically just described exactly that.
So it's built on like Nier, not near social, like on Boss, right?
So it's like one of the gateaways on Boss.
And basically, you can interact with DeFi on Arbitrum, Avalanche, Base, Binance and like 10 other chains just from that one interface through Nier, through like through Boss, I'm guessing.
I'm not, you know, that technical to describe it the right way.
But I think from what you said, that's basically exactly what it is, sort of connecting all the DeFi from everywhere in one place.
Yeah, what is this called?
It's called DabDab.net.
D-A-P-D-A-P.net.
DabDab.
I'm not sure if they're actually...
Oh, probably you need to put Alpha.D-A-P-D-A-P.net.
Let me see if I can find the...
There's been a tweet from Ilya, I think, about it.
Oh, yeah.
I'm on there now.
Oh, they do have a Twitter, actually.
It says, your universal entry point to L2s.
Are you able to see, like, the website?
Yeah, I'm able to see this.
What do you think?
I think it's okay.
I'm connecting my wallet to it.
Well, I'm not sure if the...
Like, the website doesn't look that impressive, but I think the idea of, like, connecting all the DeFi together is right around there.
Okay, so, actually found a tweet from Ilya, where he says,
chain abstraction is inevitable.
Users and businesses don't care what chain our app's running on.
You can see a glimpse of it over at DabDab.net, where boss-powered apps aggregation from various L2 and L1s.
Account aggregation is the next step for boss.
What do you think about that, Alex?
I think...
About that statement.
Okay, there was a lot there, so let's unpackage it by bit.
I think chain abstraction is definitely something that's very much on the horizon.
And I think the most important thing in chain abstraction is having a reliable way to read the state of another blockchain in a decentralized way.
And I think the Rainbow Bridge does a very good job of that.
And other chains will need to copy some kind of solution like that for themselves to be able to access Ethereum state.
Because right now, you need to access...
Not right now, but really forever.
You need to access the state of another chain in order to have a secure bridge.
And in order to abstract chains properly, you need to have good bridging.
And so, yeah, that's really what I see, is that there's a good opportunity for...
Like, the bridging is done well, and so that will lead to other good things.
You know, I've heard before people say that any blockchain, or any, maybe more specific,
maybe like any Ethereum-based blockchain, like EVM, can be a smart contract on NIR.
And as someone more technical, could you tell me if that's true, and, like, what does it really mean?
I think we need someone from the audience to answer that.
Someone from the audience to answer that?
Yeah, I...
Yeah, I don't know about making an entire EVM chain as a single...
I mean, I could, in theory, see how that would work.
That...
But...
I don't know.
That's...
I feel like I'm going into theory there.
I mean, we can leave out that one.
You know, another thing I want to ask you, since we're speaking on DeFi, like, to me,
it's been a feeling in a way that, in the beginning, there was sort of this idea, like,
decentralized finance, give access to, like, financial services to people who may not have
access to banking, and on top of that, make those financial services better than the bankers,
more decentralized, like, self-custody, super-fast transaction, all that stuff.
But then, in the end of the day, it sort of turned into most of the DeFi protocols just
being, you know, poinsies, in a way.
Like, users just fighting for rewards against each other.
And we haven't really seen, I think, any major, like, solutions that would actually solve
that, like, problem and give, like, better version of finance to the world.
What do you think about that in general?
Are we just not there yet?
Or what's the situation with this?
I think the user experience isn't there yet.
And I think there needs to be some kind of way for people to interact with DeFi, where
the wallet is custodied by a qualified custodian, because people, they don't want to deal with
the complicated technical things, like remembering a seed phrase.
They just want to go to an app, have it work correctly.
And so, for everyday people to use these services, they need to, yeah, like, it's really all
about key management, and people don't want to do that themselves.
And so, there needs to be a way for them to be able to use the services with someone else
posting their keys for them.
And, yeah, I'd say that's the biggest issue.
It's because people don't like hurdles and barriers to entry.
And right now, with DeFi, there are too many hurdles for people to jump over to actually
use any of the products.
And that's the biggest hindrance to their adoption, I'd say.
Interesting.
And can you talk a little bit more about what you do in Quantify Crypto or EVM Finance?
How are those two related?
Is it like one is a parent entity, another is a project?
Or what's the relationship?
Yeah.
So, Quantify Crypto is our, like, parent entity.
And it was our first project, which I mentioned, we started in, like, 2018, early.
And EVM Finance is our newer, like, public alpha.
And it's really designed to be a DeFi across multiple chains.
And, yeah, like, basically, it's like a block explorer that you can trade on Uniswap and also
do lending and borrowing on Aave.
We're in the process of adding a lot more chains right now, which is, like, the main thing for
us is, like, creating systems to handle non-EVM chains and EVM chains side by side.
So, like, one of the things is we have the Aurora instance of Nier supported in our staging
environment.
And so we're getting ready to add, like, other non-EVM layer ones into that format as well.
Can you tell us which ones are coming on?
I'd say we're definitely adding, we're going to be adding, for one, Nier, two would be Bitcoin.
Also, we're looking at Solana and Tron and Ripple.
That's some of the others.
And which one of those do you think, like, are coming into this new cycle that we have
right now, I'm guessing?
Which one of them have the best DeFi ecosystems?
I'd say, of what I just listed, I don't think any of the ones I listed have necessarily the
best ecosystems.
I think...
It doesn't have to be from what you listed, just in general, which blockchains.
I think, I think, gosh, I think, I mean, it's kind of hard to say the best.
Give us your top three.
I'd say, I'd say Avalanche has what I think is the best, I think, see, there's a lot of
trade-offs in these.
I think, I think Avalanche is, like, has the best set of trade-offs, but it doesn't necessarily
have the adoption.
Honestly, I'm kind of a pessimist about all this stuff, but I think...
Can you expand on that?
What does it mean?
You're a pessimist about DeFi?
I mean, I think, so, I'd say Ethereum has the best security guarantees, but also their
fees are extremely high.
And you kind of have this, like, steep set of trade-offs where you can have lower fees,
but that has very not good security trade-offs.
So, like, I like the security of Ethereum, but I don't like the fees, and so I tend to
think it's not great for DeFi because the fees are too high that, like, people can't
really use it.
Something like Arbitrum has much lower fees, but its security is not nearly as secure
as Ethereum Layer 1.
So, that's why I say Avalanche, I think, is the best because it has the, like, on the
curve of, like, compromises of, like, you know, trading off security, like, a little
bit of security for a lot of scalability.
Like, Avalanche doesn't have, isn't a singular smart contract where its failure would break
the whole blockchain, but it's also lower fees because, like, Optimism, Arbitrum, and
Polygon all have, like, smart contracts on Ethereum that are upgradable.
And if there were to be a problem in that upgradable contract on Ethereum, that entire
blockchain would break.
And so, like, if your entire blockchain will break because a single, because it relies on
a smart contract on another chain working properly, your chain could blow up because
of something that's outside of your control.
And I can't really, like, endorse a network like that very strongly.
And so, yeah, I'd say that, like, DeFi in a lot of places right now is very not secure.
I'd say, um, I'm sorry, I have to, um, also feel like, uh, you know, the security point
with a lot of DeFi, um, sort of the weakest point of security is the project itself because
there are so many and, uh, it's so easy, I guess, like, there are a lot of small teams
that just launch their own, like, yield farm or their own, like, something else.
And, uh, I think we haven't heard that many, uh, times of, like, the whole chains being exploited,
but there have been many, many, many stories of the protocols rugging themselves.
Yeah.
So, like, how do we make sure that we can trust the people behind those projects?
Well, um, I'll just say, Optimism has had a chain failure one time.
It had an inflation bug on the token that was the gaspain token, which was at the time
just a lack user.
And so, if the bug would have been exploited, they would have infinite minted on that side
chain, which would have been bad.
Which is why I say that, like, any time you're going into the realm of trading off, you know,
trying to make things more scalable, there's, like, a cost to that.
Um, I'm sorry, can you repeat your question?
I'm, like, not sure what my answer is.
Um, yeah, uh, I was just talking about how, uh, as you said, like, each, uh, chain sort
of has different trade, uh, trade-offs and, uh, for, uh, sometimes the secure, some chains
have, like, lower security than the other.
So there are, like, risks involved in using DeFi and it might not be very safe.
But I was also added that a lot of times, uh, at least the way I feel, the biggest risk
is not even the chain that the project is running on, but the project itself, since
we've seen so many different DeFi protocols, uh, rug and, uh, exit scam and, or just like,
you know, not have, uh, user frenzy tokenomics, I guess, and where everything goes to zero and
it happened again and again and again during the, well, when the DeFi was all around.
So, like, how do you think we can, uh, sort of safeguard ourselves from those risks and
make sure that we know that, like, if we use a DeFi protocol, it's actually safe to use
at least to some extent.
I'd say the biggest thing would be, uh, using code that has been extensively audited.
And so making sure that, like, you go up to a DeFi protocol that generally you don't want
to use something that's, like, built from scratch and is on its, like, first iteration
and it hasn't been copied.
Like, Uniswap V2 has been copied so many times, but that's kind of a good thing because, you
know, it's been copied so many times and it's never been broken except for, like, you know,
there's a bakery swap or whatever that was designed to rug, uh, and so it rugged.
But it wasn't because Uniswap V2 was bad, it's because that one fork decided it was going
to be built to rug.
So I'd say using, like, more or less standard implementations is the best.
Um, and, uh, try to avoid, like, reinventing the wheel whenever possible.
Um, because I know, like, it'd be possible to deploy Uniswap V3 on Aurora L2.
I'm not sure if Nier contracts can call something on Aurora or not.
I probably should know that.
Um, but yeah, I'd say the biggest, the biggest thing is, like, the rainbow bridge, honestly.
Like, Nier has a very good bridge that's very secure because of the way it can read and
access dates from other chains.
And so that's a very strong fundamental building block that's very needed.
And I think it's, um, something other networks should really copy and copy more.
And that, like, at the end of the day, like, you'll, we'll need to move to this multi-chain
world where you'll, like, hey, I need to write a smart contract that uses, that can access
state from another blockchain.
And that's going to be the way things are done.
And so to avoid rugs and scans, like, just know code of what you're operating with, which
is, like, that's why the barrier to entry is high.
It's because, like, most people won't go through the code of whatever app they want to
use themselves.
And so that kind of opens them up to risk because it's, like, if you're not going to,
like, read all of the code yourself, at the end of the day, you're trusting someone else.
And, yeah, at the end of the day, if you're not going to audit the code yourself, you're
trusting someone else.
And if you're doing that, there's always the opportunity for them to screw you over.
So...
And can you expand a little bit more about this thing you said that differentiates Rainbow
Bridge from all the other bridges and why specifically it makes it so much more secure
while we see, like, a lot of other bridges being hacked?
Yeah, so it's really a way to read the state from another blockchain.
So with the way bridges are built, you need to know, hey, has these tokens on whatever other
blockchain, have they been transferred successfully, is the main thing you want to ask.
And these other bridges, they rely on some kind of centralized service to determine if a
token transfers havoc on another chain.
And that's really where the security vulnerability comes in, is because sometimes it's possible
to fake a signature that, like, fake an event signature that a token has been transferred
when it hasn't been transferred.
And that can cause an unlock on another side of the bridge, which would result in a token
loss.
And so I think that happened on...
I think it was the Nomad Bridge that allowed, like, a malleable signature for unlocking.
But when you can build a bridge by having direct access to the state of both blockchains,
and you don't need to rely on a centralized oracle for the bridge, then it doesn't have the opportunity
to be the world of...
I'm sure I'm having some science issues.
Thank you for that great in-depth explanation.
It's really been very informative, to be honest, because I think we haven't had people specifically
with, like, deep knowledge about DeFi here for a while.
So, you know, it was great to see somebody really knowing all these details and digesting
it for us.
So I hope the community really appreciates it.
Oh, I'm glad to bring the knowledge, yeah.
Okay, let's bring the knowledge.
And let me just remind everyone, we have around 30 people with us right now listening to all
this great knowledge for free, by the way.
And not only for free, but Chill and Chill is actually a learn and earn platform.
So as every other day, today we also have a giveaway, which means don't forget to like,
repost, tell your friends, tag them, make sure they come.
And today we have 10-year giveaway, so we're going to have two winners.
And as well, I think, and then we're going to open it up for people from the community
to ask questions.
I see a lot, a lot of requests.
A lot of people want to dive deeper into this topic of DeFi.
But I also had another question myself.
So I wanted to ask, you know, in this current state of DeFi, at least it seems to me like
DeFi right now is not really serving sort of the people who it was intended to serve,
but it's rather something that exists only inside the blockchain community, inside crypto
community.
The only people who use it are people who already use, like, basically, DGENs and other
people who already use crypto.
And, you know, like, to phrase this question very specifically, is what purpose do you think
DeFi in its current state serves right now?
And for who?
Right now, in its current state, there are the main use of DeFi is to hedge your price
risk on the chain without depending on a centralized counterparty, which basically means shorting
the market at the top in the bear market.
And you don't have to depend on a counterparty failing potentially and liquidating you.
So, for example, like, let's say you wanted to short Bitcoin was up at 60,000.
If you were doing that on FTX, you probably had a good trade, but they rugged, took your
money.
And so if you can short the market using a DeFi protocol, you don't need to worry about
the exchange you're on rugged.
And I'd say that's like the biggest thing of what DeFi serves is it helps people who are
self-custodying have access to services that you would typically need to depend on an exchange
to get in the past.
Now, that's a very, like, niche thing and most people don't do that because they don't
self-custody.
So, yeah, I'd say it serves a niche, really.
So, you think, like, sort of the main purpose is to, like, be able to short, be able to hedge
against, like, to bet against the market in a decentralized way?
Yeah, pretty much.
And, like, I say that as in, like, a, I think there could be other use cases, but, like,
the most useful thing I've ever done with a DeFi app was I was able to short in a decentralized
way just to, like, hedge my price risk.
And it doesn't sound sexy.
It sounds very boring.
But this is stuff that, like, people in traditional finance have a lot of experience with.
And so, it's, like, it doesn't sound like a great world-changing thing.
I didn't think it was very world-changing.
But, you know, it's simple and it works the way it's supposed to.
And that's really, you know, the building block is we have something simple that works the
way it's supposed to and that allows other things to be built up.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You know, like, I personally think that for DeFi to really work, we need to bring, you
know, services that are already being used in traditional finance and they're being used
because they actually make sense to use and bring them on DeFi so that people can use DeFi
for something that makes sense, not just, like, to try to gamble their money away.
But that being said, it was your example, right?
Like, if you were short on FTX, the FTX could collapse, but, or rugged.
But don't we see, like, DeFi protocols rugging all the time as well?
And is it risk any different if you trade on a DeFi platform versus a centralized exchange?
I mean, I really just stick to Uniswap and Aave.
Their code bases have been public a long time.
They're audited, they're safe, and I really don't, I don't mess with new protocols that
haven't been around for more than a year.
Like, if it's been around for less than a year, I think that there's a chance it could
rug and I don't touch it.
So, that's where I personally do.
That makes sense.
So, what do you think are, like, some innovations that you would like to see in DeFi to make
it even better than it is now?
Um, just, like, scale the blockchains itself, because right now, the fees are too high, and
there needs to be scalability along with good security for it.
Makes sense.
Yes, good, simple answer.
All right, let's bring some people from our community to ask questions, because I see we
have, uh, truly a lot, a lot of people.
Uh, honestly, right now we have, like, 20 requests or so, so we'll just bring a couple
and, uh, see if they have any DeFi-related questions.
I know a lot of our listeners do a lot of DeFi on a lot of different chains.
So, let me pass the mic to Spark and hear what Spark has to say.
Um, firstly, thank you, Wax.
Um, okay, my, my concern is, um, in the aspects where you mentioned that, uh, that people need
to know the codes before they actually participate and not just leave the codes to be handled by
other individuals.
So, um, you know, not everyone is actually, um, technically inclined.
So, um, in such aspects, how do you think they go about this?
Because we have to wait for the technical people to put together these codes and then we, we, we, we, we, we believe in what they build and go into it.
So, um, so since not everyone is technically inclined, so how, what do you suggest that people do?
Um, I'd say, um, the answer I gave to the previous question where I don't really touch something unless it's been around for more than a year.
I'd say, uh, if you're not technical, the best alternative to, uh, actually going into reading is just see, uh, other people deposit into whatever protocol it is, uh, make sure that a substantial amount of money sits in that protocol for, uh, maybe if you don't want to wait a year, maybe six months.
But if something can hold a substantial amount of money for six months or more and no one hacks it, it's generally safer, uh, things that are less than a year old are typically not super tested.
There could be some backdoor and, and when I say feed being around for like six months to a year, I mean, like if something's been around for six months, no one puts money into it.
And then month seven, they start pumping in a lot of money.
You should wait six months till after there's like a significant amount of funds in there.
Um, I know it's like, there's audit reports you can read, but if you don't want to get into the technical stuff, just be like, you know, the more money it's held for a long period of time without getting hacked is generally better.
And if it hasn't held a lot of money for a long period of time, then it's probably, you're not, not probably not safe, but it hasn't held a lot of money for a long time.
It's not battle tested and you can't be a hundred percent about it.
Um, I mean, um, that's, that's really good.
And I think what you said really, um, makes sense.
Uh, so I, I don't have any question for now, but I believe maybe in the course of, um, the, um, the discussion, I should be able to maybe have some, they actually had orders, but I forgot to write it down.
So I basically, um, can't remember them and concerning the refinance, which, um, I heard you mention, I think, um, it's really cool.
The transaction is really fast and I, I really, um, trust what they're building to a nest and because, um, I've been using it for quite some time now and I can see it's really decent.
So, um, thanks a lot.
Thanks, Wax.
And, uh, Alex, what is like, uh, the main thing that you do sort of on blockchain?
Are you more of a trader, developer, everything together?
Uh, what's your main trade?
I'm mainly developer.
I do quite a bit of trading in the past, uh, but more recently I've focused on the yield farming things and not really doing as much trading.
Um, also the market's kind of dead.
So I kind of like just want to step away and enjoy things while we're in this like little lull.
Well, let's talk about this a little bit because we have been in a dead market for a long time, but it's sort of been, uh, changing.
Over this past month.
So what do you think, uh, is going on?
Uh, you know, SPF, uh, got, got, um, got charged with fraud and it's good to, to know that like, if someone does a giant multi-billion dollar scam,
um, they'll be held accountable and not just be able to like, you know, rug that big and get away with it.
I think it's, I think FTX has damaged the reputation of the industry as a whole and that everyday people who are just onlookers, they are like, see, I told you that Bitcoin thing was a Ponzi scheme.
Um, look at this SPF scumbag, he stole all the money, Bitcoin's a scam, him getting charged and now like going away is something the industry needed to like wash away the stench.
So now that he's like confirmed to have been like a criminal, he's a convicted felon on seven counts of felonies facing a hundred years in prison.
Like the industry can start to recover some of his reputation, uh, uh, uh, the industry can recover its reputation.
Um, uh, but more specifically just talking about, uh, the market, uh, because, you know, you say it's dead, but we're currently at, uh, Bitcoin 37,000.
And if you look over like the Bitcoin year chart, it's only going up and up and up and already doubled.
Um, and you know, even if you compared like previous market, 40,000 was already like more near the top, if anything, uh, do you think we're entering possibly the beginning of the new bull market or is it just, uh, bear market traps and things like that?
I'd say, I'd say we're in like a, I don't even want to try to speculate on where we are, but I I'd say we're in the pre bull market.
Like, I'd say the bear market era, like I'd say the bear markets happened.
I'm not certain that we're all the way through it.
I'd say we're at least more than halfway through it.
I'd say there's the potential for another correction before a big run, but we might not get a correction before a big run.
And so I really don't know, but yeah, I I'd say, I'd say we're definitely more than halfway through the bear market.
I can say that with confidence, but yeah, we, I I'd say we've made it through the worst of the bear market and there's the potential for another wipeout.
But I wouldn't necessarily say like, I don't know, I I I'd say there's like a more than, I don't know, I'd say between like a 30 to 60% chance of another leg down, maybe one more leg down before a bull market.
But, but yeah.
And as a former trader, would you give our audience any tips maybe on how to stay safe in these conditions?
How to, you know, make sure they come out on top and the end of the day?
What do you think, Camille, you know, some of the biggest mistakes that people do?
The hardest thing to do is buy the bottom and sell the top.
So when everything is going to shit, it's the time of maximum opportunity to buy, but it's also psychologically the hardest time to buy.
Um, and at the same time, you know, when the market's at the top is really when you want to sell, but psychologically it's hard when everything's going to the moon to want to sell.
So I'd say like, you know, Bitcoin, people say it could hit a hundred thousand, Bitcoin gets to a hundred thousand, you sell it.
And you just say, all right, you know, I bought it at 30, whatever thousand, I'm going to sell it at a hundred K and then I'm going to walk away and that's my profit.
And you just have to be able to, you know, whenever you get a trade into a trade and you buy something, you just have to know at what point am I going to sell it and walk away.
And if you never walk away, that's, that's how you get burned.
Um, and, uh, what do you think about, uh, maybe not, uh, DeFi tokens, but something so fundamental, like Bitcoin, for example, is this something that might be worth just, uh, holding forever, no matter what the cycle are as, uh, like a long-term thing?
Um, I think, um, I think, um, I think you, you shouldn't want to hold something like Bitcoin forever because at the end of the day, um, it, yeah, I wouldn't want to hold Bitcoin forever.
I, I, I want to buy in with the thought of having a designated exit and exiting at the exit time because you can look back and say, oh, I was buying it to hold it forever.
So like, let's say you bought Bitcoin at like, you know, a thousand dollars in 2017 and you have the option to sell it at 70 K, you should take the option to sell it at 70 K and not wait for it to go to like 15.
Um, like it's, uh, I, I, I, I'd say no matter what Bitcoin goes to, it'll drop 70% eventually.
And so you should sell it before it drops 70%.
Uh, so like, you know, when you buy it, just say, all right, I'm buying it now.
And if it hits a hundred thousand, I'll sell, like just have, have an exit plan always.
And you shouldn't go into any kind of investment without like an exit plan.
So you say every time that, uh, we're buying something or holding something, we should know in advance, like at the time when we enter the position, so to say, we should already have a selling point in mind.
Yep.
Yep.
But before you buy it, you should have your selling point in mind.
Um, cause you know, like right now, like you buy Bitcoin now, sell it at a hundred K that's like three X, right?
But you know, it's possible you buy it now goes to a hundred K and then it could go back down to like 60 something.
And if you had, all right, I'm getting in now with my plan to get out of a hundred and then it goes back to 60.
Then you'd be like, wow, you know, I bought in, got out when I planned to get out.
And that was a good decision.
And every time you make a trade and you can look back and be like, that was a good decision.
You got in when you wanted to, got out when you planned, then you're safe.
But if you just say, oh, there's this new shit coin and I'm going to buy it just to play around.
And you don't know when you're going to sell it.
Well, then that's a problem because then you're just going to hold it.
You're going to want to ride it forever, but eventually the train is going to end and you're going to be stuck holding the bag.
And so if you don't have an exit plan in mind, when you're buying, you're just going to end up being a bag holder.
And maybe you want to be a bag holder and there's nothing wrong with that per se, but I, I like to be a cycle holder and I don't want to hold forever through a bear market.
That makes a lot of sense.
Bear markets take a lot of time.
And considering that if you don't have like a specific exit point, uh, you would probably only reference you have is like sell on emotions.
And as you say, emotions are like counterintuitive when the formula comes in and the emotion is to a cold forever.
That's probably the best place to sell.
And the other way around when everything looks set and desperate is probably a really good time to buy.
Yeah.
But you, you said it very well, um, right there is that it's very easy to make emotional decisions.
And so having a, a planned exit really helps when you're in your emotions and you're like, all right, so what am I supposed to be doing right now?
Having the plan is always like good to ground you whenever like you'd be instead getting emotional.
You know, I'd like to hear your opinion, uh, on something else as well.
You know, I've been actually, you know, sort of preparing myself mentally for the, like, I personally think we already are in the bull run because again, if you look at like a one year Bitcoin chart, it starts at 16 and it's at 40 now.
And it's just up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up every month over a month for like 12 months already.
Uh, but, uh, we probably have, you know, as well, much more to go.
We still are like far from previous cycle highs, but, uh, another interesting piece of data, you know, that I've been looking at is it seems like, uh, the timing from like, uh, lowest point to highest point or from, uh, like having to go market because been very consistent over the past couple of cycles, uh, to the point.
Where, uh, I think, uh, just looking at this tweet, it was like from the, like in the last bull market, the number of weeks and number of days, like, obviously from like the bottom to top.
It's been exactly the same as in the cycle after it, as well as like, if you look at the half things, like the time from like half thing to the top has been very like exactly, or like almost exactly the same, like over the past three cycles.
Uh, what do you think about that?
Like, uh, timing, like, like planning your strategy based on day, uh, on times rather than, uh, like specific numbers, especially considering that, like, it does sound kind of like unreasonable, but at the same time.
It has been happening pretty consistently, almost like to a point where it doesn't make any sense.
Uh, so, so what's your question, um, with that, like.
Like, what do you think about that?
Is there a good strategy to, uh, sort of, uh, make your plan based on, uh, on those dates?
Yeah.
So, so I guess that's kind of what my plan, um, I guess I was trying to explain is that like when you go in with an exit plan.
Like, look for where the local tops are.
So I would say, like, I, I, I would say whatever crypto you're buying plan to get out in like two years from now.
Like the, you know, winter of 2025 is going to be where the next bear market is going to start, which is like two years from now.
Like, like, like two years ago, the winter of 21 was like the top and it was downhill from there.
And, you know, 2022 was just pretty much the whole year was downhill this year.
Like you say, like you say, is slightly up.
I kind of use a sideways year.
It's a slightly up sideways year.
That's like what it was always going to be.
And so, like, there was always going to be a crash after winter of 2022.
That was like expected.
And, um, uh, the way it happened wasn't necessarily a thing, but yes, I'd say, I'd say going for the, like, like basically look at the cycle chart and basically know that in two years from now, no matter what, like you're probably going to be making like in two years from now, everything's going to be on the moon.
And you're going to feel so rich and you're going to want to keep riding that wave and you're going to want to not sell and you're going to be like, why would I sell it now?
It's going up so much.
I want to keep riding the wave, but you'll just have to sell.
And so I'd say go with the plan of like two years from now, we'll be the top and I'm going to sell then.
And don't get into the trap of like, I'm just going to hodl forever and just keep riding to the moon.
You'll miss the top.
You'll look back and be like, I should have sold the top and yeah.
So like two years from now, we'll be a top and that's really all there is to it.
Top might come sooner, but that's my plan.
That's pretty straightforward.
And if that's something that is given that like late fall 2025, we will be on the bull market, right?
So it's something that's pretty much given that over like the next, well, we don't know maybe the short term, right?
But that the next two years, right?
We probably will be just going up, up, up, up, up.
What do you think is the best way to play it from a perspective of like, you know, we have different assets here.
We have like Bitcoin that's obviously not going anywhere, but at the same time, it's not going that much up, even if it does.
Right.
And then like smaller tokens that obviously can like outperform Bitcoin, but also much higher risk.
But given that we do know that bull market is coming based on those sort of cyclical timings, what do you think is like the right way to position oneself within all this variety of options?
I'd say the next, I want to say you should be accumulating from now until June of next year.
And after that, you just kind of want to hold whatever you've got and then prepare to exit at the top.
But everything is so highly correlated that like saying, oh, what to do for Bitcoin versus the altcoins, like it's pretty much the same.
Yeah, I really don't want to like.
I understand, like there is nothing like these questions cannot be answered that specifically.
It's all like a game of probabilities, but no, still, I think it's nice to hear an opinion of someone as knowledgeable as you.
So people can make their own opinions based on that at the end of the day.
Yeah, happy to.
Thanks.
But I saw Spark also set his hand up and we have also Farrakh on the stage.
So for the last five minutes, let's hear what the community also wanted to know.
Spark, please go ahead and then we'll bring Farrakh as well.
All right.
Thanks a lot.
And firstly, I just want to like chip in something to what you said concerning the bull run.
So I know that the bull run can actually start before the Bitcoin hyven.
I think if there's to be like a bull run, a certain bull run, it should be like after the hyven, not before the hyven.
And at the moment, just like you said, I think we are at the pre-bull run stage, I guess.
I don't really know.
So, and just like you said, we should, I'm making emphasis on actually taking profits.
I think a trade is not profitable until you've actually taken profits from it.
So that's just the little I just wanted putting in before I head out to work.
Yes, definitely.
Taking profits is, I think, the part where everybody struggles the most.
And Alex, I'd actually like to ask you as well.
Like, what do you think is the best strategy around there?
Well, you know, exit at the top is, of course, a good advice.
Do you think it's smart to like DCA out of your bags?
Or is there, you know, maybe like any other good frameworks how to do it in like the most safe way?
Yeah, I think DCAing out is always good.
And it prevents you from wanting to time it because saying, oh, I'm going to sell all of it now, you then like leave yourself the, oh, I sold everything, but it's going back up.
And I want to get back in saying that, like, I'm going to, after a certain date, just begin DCAing out is more advisable than trying to time all of it at an exit in one specific time.
Makes sense.
That's what I would expect.
And so let's go to Faruk and hear what Faruk has to say.
Yeah.
Hello, GM, GN, wherever the listeners are from.
Hello, Axe.
And Isaac, it's great, great AME, great space going on.
However, I would just like to say, you know, you are talking about holding Bitcoin, which you said is not really necessary to hold it for long.
But I mean, Bitcoin is king.
So I wouldn't mind holding my Bitcoin forever, you know, because it determines wherever the market goes.
And also, I have a question for your platform, does Quantify Crypto?
Because I went through, I was going through your platform, and I realized that as a trading platform, a DeFi platform, which assists people to, in making decisions, critical decisions for trading.
So, like, does the platform have any, like, educational materials in which users can use to, you know, guide, as a guide to trade on your platform?
So, you can't actually trade directly from Quantify Crypto.
Our DeFi platform lets you trade directly.
There are some research reports and tutorial stuff in there as well.
It might not be super up to date, but we do have a substantial amount of tutorial educational content.
So, if you go under the resources tab at the top, that's got the most stuff.
I can drop a link here for you.
Okay, that's great.
That's amazing.
I really appreciate it.
Here, if you want to, can you pin this last?
Where is it, in the comments?
Yeah, how do I drop a comment in here?
Just press the comment button.
Yeah, it's, like, under the post, or you can just do it in the space.
There's, like, the bottom right.
And I can pin it.
Oh, fine.
Okay.
Yeah, all right.
There.
Okay, yeah, I just commented on the post.
Perfect.
Got it.
I'll see you.
I'll turn it up.
Thank you for the question.
And, Alex, before we go, you know, we've been talking for an hour, so it's probably a good time to get to the closing point.
But I wanted to ask you, what do you think about this whole Bitcoin ETF thing?
And if it does get approved, what does it mean for the market?
And I would say, if it gets approved, it means that people who don't, it just makes it easier for normies to buy Bitcoin from their stock account.
Basically, the current system where the closest thing you could buy to an ETF was the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust.
And they did some, like, you know, not great lending decisions where they rehypothecated the funds illegally and blew all the money.
And, yeah, so I'd say the ETF has a stricter regulatory guideline that it has to follow than what Grayscale had to follow.
So that makes it better.
There's more, it's more highly regulated and they can't rehypothecate funds the way that, like, Grayscale has rehypothecated funds.
Well, they can still rehypothecate them.
It's just more illegal for them to rehypothecate funds that are part of an ETF.
That makes sense.
Well, what can I say?
Thank you so much for your time.
This has been a very interesting, very educational space.
And I think our community really loved it as well.
And, yeah, good luck with everything.
And Quantify Crypto and EVM Finance.
Oh, by the way, are you planning to come to any events in the United States this year?
Maybe East Denver?
Any plans for that?
I'll be at East Denver.
I'll be around the city sometimes, too.
I've been getting back into going out and stuff again.
Yeah, let's catch up over there.
I'm actually, you know, I've got a job as a, like a, like a fun job as a snowboard instructor in Vail.
So, for the three winter months, I'm actually going to be living in Denver.
And, yeah, and obviously I'll go to East Denver since I'm already there.
So, hopefully we'll get to catch up over there, man.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love that.
But, yeah, I'm going to let you go for today.
Thanks so much for coming and bringing all this value.
And everybody follow Quantify Crypto.
I will see you for another space very, very soon.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me, Max.
You have a good rest of your day, man.
Goodbye, everyone.
See you soon.
Bye-bye.
