2024 End of Year Review | Press Play #77

Recorded: Dec. 11, 2024 Duration: 1:05:29

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To be continued...
Two or three months already.
Hey, everyone.
Gabi here, co-founder of YDG, still on a high from the Game Awards.
Aren't we all, aren't we?
Thanks, Luke?
It's not real.
It's been quite a journey.
It's been quite a journey.
I might nod you.
God, I feel like I feel like I haven't spoken to you.
I'm going to talk to you next year.
How are you,
I don't think,
I'm going to talk to you.
I'm going to talk to you.
I'm going to talk to you.
I'm going to talk to you.
Dean from Hany Foreman,�...
And I'm going to talk to you, gee, how are you, going to talk to you...
Do you guys feel like 90% of the games that we've been talking about
the last two years have been dead?
I'll start with you, Gabby, because obviously you've been here
probably, between all of us, the longest
in terms of actually being a champion in Web3Gamer from the beginning.
Wow, you just called me a boomer.
Is that so true?
I didn't call you a boomer, I just called you experience.
So we'll go with that.
Well, I haven't really counted how many games there are
and how many games are remaining.
It's true that gaming, in general, has not really popped off,
not in the same way memes have
and not in the same way that AI events have.
Personally, my conviction remains as strong as it has been since 2018.
If you're here last cycle, you know that there's always a narrative rotation
and gaming will get its turn.
We're waiting for a kind of catalyst whether, you know,
which game it'll be that people will look up to as leading the space
as Axie did last time.
And I have no doubt it will happen.
Which game?
I don't know.
We have our bets.
We'll see which one it'll be.
Yeah, just to give it a bit more context as well
in terms of the report and where that number is coming from.
So, apparently, Chainplay analyzed more than 3,200 gaming projects
to assess their current status.
And a project was classified as dead
if it had fewer than 100 users engage with it daily
or if it only saw a decline of over 90%.
I guess if you say decline of over 90% from all-time highs,
then a lot of projects are dead.
But, Coop, I see your hand is already up.
I wanted to kind of hear from you as well.
Obviously, you guys on the L1 side and what you guys see as well.
Curious, do you buy into this?
Do you think it's normal because gaming in general
tends to see numbers like this as well?
What do you think?
Yeah, I believe that.
And, yeah, games are hard.
What's the stat?
Like 80% or 90% of every game in the world just doesn't make it.
So, that feels probably true.
And, you know, we're in this niche
where everyone's still experimenting
and trying to figure things out.
It doesn't worry me a whole lot.
But, yeah, I could see that being true.
Yeah, I think it is a reflection of the kind of the wider space.
And we need to kind of, I think if you zoom out
and you look at gaming and the number of layoffs
and everything that's been happening
just in the kind of wider gaming scope,
it does feel right.
I guess, especially in a sector that's this new.
But, Luke, here's an interesting one for you as well.
So, in terms of, I guess, being a project,
funding has decreased apparently 13% from last year, 2023.
And it is apparently a decline of 84% compared to 2022.
Do you think money is drying up?
Do you think investors are getting more strict?
Do you think it's a combination of the two?
Are there other factors?
What do you think on the medieval empire side?
So, I mean, we still have a couple of days left in December.
And now, since the Bitcoin dominance goes down,
it goes into altcoins again.
And I think a lot of people would shift their focus
to micro caps or low market cap again.
And they will also invest in games again.
Because now is the time for us that have waited for three years,
two years, or how long we've been here for it to go up.
Because we also launched in the beginning of the bear market, basically.
So, I think, especially January to March 2021,
the numbers will go up again.
Because in the bear market, no one wanted to invest in the game.
Like, it was hard work.
I think now you can just, like, post on Twitter,
hey, I'm raising money for a game, and show some gameplay.
And then people directly jump into it again.
I see lots of TGEs happening again.
So, I think we will get back to it.
So, right now, I think a lot of money just flows into the bigger ones,
like IMAX, for example, or AVAX.
But soon after that, that will go to new games again,
or to projects that want to take the bull market.
So, I think it will increase again.
And 90% of those guys we will never see again in three years,
as you said.
Because the problem is some of them didn't even reach 100 players.
So, I'm not sure if they're also in the statistics,
but some of them never even made a game, right?
A lot of people raised a lot of money,
but I never saw a game from them.
So, I'm not sure if they're on your list as well,
but that will happen this year again.
So, this year, we have more competition, I think.
Or next year, we will have more competition,
because there are actually games that are out.
And I think a lot of money will flow into those,
instead of, like, investing in something new.
So, yeah, wisely said.
And with more competition, I guess there's an inclination
to want to be different and to do things in your way.
So, who better to speak to about this than you, Syngin?
How has the experiment gone with Meiji,
in terms of what you guys did as a meme coin,
and the fair launch, and all that stuff?
Because I think you're probably one of the first
to actually be a game or a studio building a game
and then want to go this route
because you're building something that's a bit more unique.
So, I'm curious, like, what your learnings have been,
what the experience is like,
and if you think you'll see more projects doing similar stuff.
I think everyone is still, like, experimenting.
I think the biggest experiments are on that kind of speculation side.
And so, we launched our, you know, gaming meme coin
from a studio side, I think, really at the right time.
I think there are things that are kind of working against us,
being on Zy, and we didn't have a solution
that got funds directly to the Zy.
It's, I guess, technically, it's a layer three.
So, people are coming in from, like, ETH bridging to ARB,
then getting into Zy.
So, there are some learnings there.
We have some solutions now on the Zy blockchain
for, you know, directly getting into,
onto that layer from, like, whatever chain
they're in the works or at least from ETH side.
Was it a success?
I think it was.
But, you know, we kept our expectations pretty reasonable.
And I think the biggest thing with all the meme coins
is that, you know, you want to create this illusion
that it's a fair launch when the reality is it's really not.
And so, we didn't do a particularly complete, fair launch.
I mean, we held some for promotion.
On the side of that was that, you know, as a gaming studio,
us being around so long for us, you know, not just being docs,
but having a real reputation that's online that, you know,
are the people that got involved early, you know,
they knew we were not going to rug.
So, they gave us some leeway in terms of the structure for it.
We did have technical difficulties.
We kind of dropped the ball on how much marketing
that needed to be done.
I actually had a kind of dispute with my marketing team
because they wanted something more unique.
And I was like, listen, fuckers, like,
we've already launched this meme coin.
Do you guys understand that we just got to post
like a motherfucker?
And this is, like, probably about two weeks,
three weeks before the AI agents start going fucking bonkers, right?
And now, like, how can you really compete against an AI agent
who's, like, trading on your behalf and posting and replying
and stuff like that?
So, you know, it kind of, like, made us reset and regroup,
but also, again, that, like, is an actual Web3 game suitable
for the hyper-speculative narrative?
And if you're going to compete in that arena,
how much of expectations, you know, can you actually match
or even, say, to be competitive towards what's out there?
And, you know, I'm really close to Michael O'Connor,
and that guy, he just got fucking wrecked with, you know,
his Limbo agent and the coin and stuff like that.
You know, again, they're another gaming studio.
They have a lot of tech behind it.
They're building their AI agent, you know, with Unreal Engine.
There's a long way to go.
But I think going back to the 90% thing, you know,
in terms of, you know, playing the speculation game,
we're, like, the most, like, risk-on asset in the crypto space, right?
Whether it's Layer 1s or DeFi plays or altcoins that have a very simple narrative.
And I think, you know, for moving towards 2025,
I just want to say I think that the games that are not necessarily
speculative first, but ROI first in terms of gaming assets and the NFTs
and really, you know, creating this open economy that actually works,
that's where we're going to see the real breakout.
You know, a lot of people that don't want to hear that
because it seems so far away.
But again, you know, Sparkball or Wildcard or us
who have been building for four, five, six, seven years,
you know, this is probably the year that we're all going to start to release.
So, you know, I think 2025 will be very, very interesting
interesting in the sense that maybe we don't have to play
the speculative game as hard and compete in that arena.
Great insights from the great Sinjin, as always.
Yeah, I think it was definitely a bold move.
I don't think there's a right or wrong way,
especially when there's no, like, playbook.
So playing it by ear kind of makes sense in a position
that you guys obviously were in.
But my favorite topic to see on the timeline, Mr. Connor,
DEX only launch, no central exchange.
How's that been like?
I know you guys are happy whenever you see projects
do the same thing as well.
I do get a little bit critical sometimes
when projects try to kind of just blindly follow that.
I think we talked about this back in, I think, September
when we were saying not everyone has the full capability
of doing a DEX only launch,
especially if they don't understand everything around that.
But coming to you guys, your experience,
the things you've been seeing over the past couple of,
I guess, months, especially since you're TGE,
what do you think the space is headed towards?
Is it more DEX only stuff?
Will the exchanges start getting a bit more friendly
as the bull market kind of goes into full swing
and all of a sudden gaming tokens are getting picked up?
So going central exchange is no longer a bad idea.
What do you think the next couple of months
are going to look like?
Yeah, what a year.
It's been a crazy one.
I think that we'll see,
well, we've seen retail come back,
you know, as Bitcoin has been pushing the all-time high
and pushed through it, obviously, now 100K.
And so now when, you know, tokens are getting launched on,
they're, you know, securing big exchange listings,
you're seeing a lot of good price action
and that's great to see, honestly.
So I think there is marginal buyers on exchanges now,
whereas in the middle of the year,
if you launched on an exchange, it was pretty dark
and no one was really buying your tokens.
And which, so that's great.
I do think that exchanges follow the narratives quite heavily.
So meme coins were really hot about, you know,
five to two months ago.
And so all the meme coins were getting listed.
Now AI is extremely hot
and I think we'll see AI coins getting listed.
And perhaps next year, if gaming gets a run,
then we'll see gaming coins get listed.
So yeah, that's my take on the topic.
Wasn't everyone all about Telegram just two months ago, right?
And now no one talks about it.
Gabby, that's insane
because literally my next point was going to be,
it's been such a crazy year
that we completely forgot about this whole Telegram phase
because apparently Telegram now currently hosts
21% of Web3 gaming launches in 2024.
So out of all the currently, you know, live games in Web3,
21% of them live on Telegram.
That feels like a live.
Those are clicker.
Gamified experience.
Use it gracefully.
But yeah, it feels like this was years ago,
but it's literally only been, what,
like three, four, maybe even five months maximum
when Hamster Combat first came out,
did their thing and everyone started copying them.
Gaspar, I see your hand is up.
So I'll actually hand it over to you.
Do you miss that?
Do you feel like it was yesterday?
Does it feel like a lifetime ago?
So Telegram games feel like an absolute yonks ago
and we just don't see it on the timeline anymore.
And I thought the same as everyone else chuckling on stage,
that Telegram games must be dead.
But out of the, I think it was about 80 people
did my poll in the end.
I did a poll of, are Telegrams dead?
Because I don't see them on the timeline.
Yes, they're dead.
No, they're not dead.
And no, I never played them.
And 40% of people said they're not dead.
They're still playing them.
And the majority seem to think that Twitter timelines
kind of forgotten about them
because Twitter has the worst ADHD ever.
But there is still quite a lot of people going out
and playing them.
So I don't think they're as dead as the timeline lets on.
I think what we're having is that we're very ruled
by what's on the Twitter timeline.
And I think there is kind of a different gaming narrative
happening kind of outside of Twitter
with the games themselves.
But that's all I wanted to jump in on the Telegram.
I know you're doing your round robin of the guests,
so I'll let you get back to that
before I jump in with my question for the year.
Yeah, but do you know anybody actually playing them?
So I still play a couple,
but they're not the clicker ones.
They're ones that actually have to have more of a game to them.
We're seeing more games coming into them.
I know one of the games I'm a big fan of for mobile,
Rumble Arcade,
they were able to port their games straight into a Telegram game.
And that's got a lot more depth
and a lot more actual playability to it than just a clicker.
It's like a full game kind of thing.
And we're seeing there's a lot more of those come out.
I haven't seen, like,
there's still some terrible clicker ones coming through,
but there's definitely a lot more that are trying to do a game
within the Telegram app looking to try and recreate
what Asia has on their kind of one-for-all app,
which has their games on it.
We're trying to see more games, trying to pivot into it.
I don't know if it'll ever happen
because Telegram is just not the same kind of app,
but there's definitely ones that are games now
rather than just clickers.
Yeah, I mean, not everything is a clicker, right?
I think that is probably what died out, if anything,
which is, I guess, good for the space
because Hamster Combat,
I think a couple of other quote-unquote games
were the talk of town.
And then when everyone got, like, airdrop $2,
they kind of just gave up on that meta.
But I think the space is now kind of there
in terms of, like, teams that want to build mobile experiences,
that maybe struggle with distribution,
that want to kind of get into Telegram as an app
to then just be in front of millions of users.
I think there's definitely an argument there.
I know a couple of games, like, Elder Glade
is essentially kind of like a Candy Crush Match 3 style game
that I know Mustafa plays all the time on the toilet
or, you know, waiting for something in a car or whatever.
So there's definitely games that are there.
But as, I don't want to call it a genre,
but as a subsection, as a subsector of Web3 gaming,
it definitely feels like it has died out
in terms of hype and noise,
but it doesn't seem like it has died out
in terms of development.
I recall actually in Dubai a couple of months ago
when Binance Blockchain Week was happening,
right after that, I think there was, like,
a ton event with, like, hackathons
and, you know, seminars on how to build
and so on and so forth.
Gabby, I see your hand is up.
Yeah, I do think there are some people
that are innovating in Telegram.
I do think that the kind of earlier rush
of clickers is probably gone.
Katizen made an absolute killing revenue-wise
that nobody was really able to replicate.
So hats off to GZ and his team
for really being able to capitalize on that.
There are some teams that are doing interesting stuff.
The Goat Gaming guys are doing some interesting things.
Sonza is a new game studio
that's doing something interesting as well.
The D-Labs guys have basically pivoted
to what they call mid-core Telegram games,
which I think is very interesting.
So there's definitely still innovation there,
but I think a lot of the easy pickings are gone
and people have to really find, like,
genuine products now.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think it's like anything, right?
In the beginning, there's the first movers,
the ones that kind of benefit the most
from being new and innovative,
and then things kind of tend to correct themselves.
And, you know, if you've built the tools
and if the attention and interest is there,
then others might kind of come in
and build on top of that.
It's definitely, it's very,
it emulates what happened with Goat Gaming, right?
Because in the beginning, it was just Axie
and everyone was trying to copy Axie,
but then Axie kind of paved the way
for other studios to build other experiences
that were unlike Axie in terms of the play style.
But if Axie doesn't happen,
then the question becomes,
do any of these other games follow suit
or do they even come to life?
Coop, from, I guess, L1 Avalanche perspective,
you guys obviously focus a little bit more
on the, I'd say, more quality,
like AAA style, you know, games,
MapleStory and maybe less of a AAA,
actually maybe more of a AAA
in terms of marketing spend.
But what are you seeing
looking at kind of the end of the year
going into next year?
Obviously off the grid happened not too long ago,
that's October,
but, you know, there were 12 months in the year.
And then there's like 12 months coming up
very shortly as well.
So are you seeing similar trends?
Is it more of the same stuff?
Is everyone trying to make a shooter
and copy off the grid?
Did everyone give up on shooters
because they can't beat it?
Like what does it look like for you right now?
There's still a big mix.
I think there is a sense
that shooters are just very difficult.
I mean, Fortnite coming out
with a first-person shooter
is also just worrying anyone
working on a shooter right now.
Like, how are you going to beat Fortnite?
It's just a huge task.
And yeah, so there's a fair amount
of conversation around that.
I think when I was thinking about this call,
there's a big part of me
that was honestly just like frustrated
with how slow our progress can be.
And even when I think the industry
has made a lot of strides,
especially around like quality of gameplay,
it feels like, you know,
there's still just a lot of headwinds
and more than there are, you know,
positive movements
because the games themselves
have gotten a lot better.
It doesn't seem like we've really cracked
any sort of code around player base,
at least outside of Southeast Asia.
And, you know, that's really what I want to see.
Like in 2025, we have some,
we have more great games coming
and they really need to focus
on actually achieving a player base.
And I'm just a little bit wary
of how much focus there is
on just the token being a success.
And I just don't,
I love the token aspects of these games.
It's obviously a crucial part
of like why we're doing this.
But if we aren't getting larger player bases,
then, you know,
I don't think that the normal world
is ever going to really like
look at this as a place to build.
And that's what I care about.
It's like I care about two,
three years from now
that we have 10x more builders,
10x more game devs.
And I just don't see them caring
about the space
if it's largely about the token.
And that's kind of where my head is at
is a little bit more
on the frustration side,
even though we've seen a lot of,
you know, improvement around gameplay.
Yeah, definitely fair points there.
And to your point about Fortnite
worrying others,
Overwatch 2 hit its lowest player count
following the release of Marvel Rivals.
So something like a first-person shooter
on Fortnite definitely would make
even the Call of Duties of the world
worry about player count.
Mr. Sinjin, I see your hand is up.
Yeah, no, I agree with Koop's points
entirely.
I think one part of it is like,
so you're a game designer
and the reality is
if you're building anything like a,
like let's just use that term,
triple-I game,
like an indie game
in the sense that,
you know,
you're not putting a 40 or 100
or 200 million dollar budget behind it,
but you're trying to get down
to the real concept
of what is Web 3.
and then,
you know,
the prototype really is
and the pioneer is Axie,
definitely.
And then from Axie,
you get like the real terminology
of GameFi
and then you had all these clones
that basically just took
exactly what Axie's,
you know,
model was,
and they played it off like
that was just a game of Ponzi's,
Who's going to get in first
and who's going to strike the most
before the token runs down,
And then we went through
that cycle
for probably about like
four to five months
before it was like
totally burned out
there hasn't been anyone
who's cracked a formula yet
and you wonder why
and I would say that
even when Axie
had first presented their deal
and there's a lot of,
you know,
you know,
interviews about this,
no one gave them
the time of the day,
you know,
and it was pretty much
the best performing,
you know,
investment for a lot of firms
who really didn't think
it was going to go anywhere
because it was kind of like
they had a good network
so they raised
and I think they raised
like less than a million,
you know,
and I think,
you know,
another big part of that was
Axie was so successful
it created the rise
of all these mega guilds,
So normally guilds
were really started
within games
and kind of went social
and then went for,
you know,
kind of creating
some kind of financial
structure from it.
You know,
obviously I think YGG
was very much
a part of,
you know,
even the development
of structures
you know,
the scholarships
that didn't really come
from Sky Mavis first,
And that really
kickstarted all that
and so you have this
huge impact
from what Axie did
and then the question is
was anyone really
trying to solve it
and I remember meeting
a whole bunch of VCs
who were talking
to me about gaming
because their,
their skill in gaming
was that they've been
in gaming
since they've been
a little kid
so therefore
they should fucking
know what they're
talking about.
I'm like,
you fuck nuts
have no idea
what you're talking about
because they would
present another game
that was exactly
like Axie
but they had five
more SYNCs.
I'm like,
you know these SYNCs
are not scalable
and they're not actually
in the gameplay loop
and they're like,
what do you mean?
Of course it's
in the gameplay loop.
it's optional
and it actually
pretty much increases
the rate of supply
and they're like,
you know,
we disagree
and 10 other VCs
all disagree
and I would say
like all those
game token funds
that were like token only
they're all fucking gone.
Like you don't hear
about these guys
leading projects anymore
because they're just
fucking dead
because they invested
expecting to,
you know,
just fucking,
you know,
pump and dump
and go on the next one
until it all ran out
and then they were
just really exposed.
So until someone
makes another formula,
everyone is just
trying to figure out,
you know,
maybe what is
the next thing.
But going back to it
is that if you were
a mobile game developer
post 2012,
you have only developed games
within a very,
very established ecosystem
and distribution model,
and the monetization model
that works with,
you know,
Web 2 games
post 2012,
you know,
it's so fucking known.
Like you can A,
B test it in a certain market,
you'll know exactly
how it's going to do
to the next market,
so on and so forth,
But there are very few
game developers
who have been in that
transitional period
you know,
where free-to-play
didn't exist
and then existed afterwards
you know,
free-to-play in PC games
and so on and so forth,
So when someone asks me
who's not from the industry,
what are the top games?
And I don't name them
the games that
have raised the most money.
I name them the games
of the developers
and the game designers
who have been around
for those transactional,
transitional periods
because at the end of the day,
if you ask any of these games,
what are you solving in Web 2?
Whether it's like
distribution
or cost per acquisition
or opening new markets,
it's not 93 that have failed
that can't answer that.
It's literally 99,
So until that really happens,
you know,
you know,
I think it's just,
it's just,
we really haven't started
with what Web 3 really can be
because you think about
these shitty numbers
that people talk about
and they're like,
we raised like 40 million.
you know,
we have like maybe
200 million in revenue this,
200K in revenue this month.
A fucking video game
needs to make
100 million a year.
Seriously.
You know,
that is the,
like the minimum bar
you should be looking for
and that's not based
on speculation
but on actual revenue.
So until we get there,
I think is the ball still open
and just one last point,
I did play Marvel Rivals.
I had such expectations for it
and it's so fucking unbalanced
and they released
all 33 characters at once
and it's total fucking mess.
you know,
even these guys,
and I know why
because they had to release it
before Christmas
and Chinese New Year's,
that is a fucking train wreck
of a game.
Jesus Christ.
that's the end of the rant.
I saw a post
saying that
maybe Marvel Rivals
was intended to be the game
where every,
almost every character
feels like it's broken.
So the competitive players
would get really pissed off
but the casuals
would enjoy the game
and I think maybe
that's what they're trying
to go after
because it genuinely feels like
I see a new post every day
that's like,
Iron Fist is broken,
Scarlet Witch is broken,
Jed is broken,
Captain America is broken.
It seems like every character
is broken.
they're all fucking broken.
the game is fun
and Overwatch 2
is down in numbers
so it seems like it worked.
your hand was up
for quite some time there.
super good points
by Sinjin
and I do agree
that most people
who have made money
especially like
in the last
maybe 8 to 10 years
know how to make money
within kind of
a very confined
business model
especially in free-to-play
even those that
made a lot of money
they kind of had
a formula set for them,
And that formula
was created by people
for example
Gabe Laydon
who kind of helped
create the formula
for flooding
the market
with user acquisition
and then turning
that into revenue
like he's been quiet
about what he's doing
but I actually have
faith and very high
expectations
about what he's doing
with Digidae Gaku
and so I don't think
the playbook
for Web3 Gaming
has been created
yet, right?
I do think
starting to get there
people are definitely
experimenting
there are some
that have even
gotten to
more than
10 million dollars
of revenue
such as Katizen
the one thing
that I am really
watching out for
these games
ready to do
user acquisition
on the Web2 side
converting
those players
quote-unquote
Web3 players
or those that
care more about
the ownership
aspects of the game
so that's what
I'm looking for
we've seen
flashes of user
acquisition
here and there
definitely
off the grid
has spent
a lot of money
but it seems like
the player base
has dropped off
once the money
has been spent
once we see
games that
are not afraid
10-20 million dollars
those players
are sticking
owning assets
trading them
that's who
like the next
winner start to be
so I'm just going to
see your hand
as backup
you might want to
have something
to follow up there
so I'll go to you
yeah I wanted to
give a concrete
example of
what Gabby
was speaking about
so I was there
at the beginning
of the online
and social casino
and you know
real money gambling
in general industry
the biggest
thing that you
could say about
with online
poker was that
when online
poker players
first started
fucking difficult
to get money
like because
credit cards
wouldn't allow
it you know
you had to use
prepaid credit cards
and even like
these things like
virtual credit cards
they were developed
specifically
workaround
for the online
gambling industry
but for poker
specifically
when poker players
started playing
the live poker
players were like
these fucking kids
are playing like
they don't know
shit about poker
how can you really
play the game
when it's just
like just screens
and players there
but what ended up
happening was that
online poker
had a really cool
innovation
is that you can
multi-table
meaning that you
could play
multiple poker
tables at once
and there's a
saying in poker
that you don't
really understand
the game of poker
until you play
10,000 hands
so normally
in a live setting
you would literally
have to play
like five or six
years to get
to 10,000 hands
but a multiplayer
multi-table
like poker player
who was playing
they could get
to 10,000 hands
within like
two three years
and then they
would have
all the data
and so there
was this real
10x difference
in terms of
playing live
to online
and that might
seem like
okay obviously
it's live
to online
so there's
difference
but in the
with like
web 3 gaming
we're going
to compare
a web 2 game
to a web 3 game
and then the
base game
is fundamentally
like a first
person shooter
so that's
fucking competitive
even use the
marvel rivals
this net east
and they spend
like fucking
millions of dollars
fucking the best
ip in the world
great fucking
and for what
it's doing
fucking optimized
it is to even
run on any
and you see
polish it is
I mean like
off the grid
really from a
game developers
point of view
still had one
year of like
polish left to do
just to optimize
where it runs
like consistently
like net east
they have that
understanding
they're like
competing
at that level
of just web 2
now for web 3
what is that
10x factor
that makes
such a big
difference
for instance
like again
going back
to online
some players
were playing
tables at a
worldwide
liquidity
a massive
like live
game tournament
which is 10
post 2002
if you look
at the world
series of
world series
like fucking
like 20,000
players playing
three weeks
definitely
will happen
shouldn't
metrics of
like what
gaming is
it should
literally be
and I would
really good
example from
because like
panelists on
like gamified
and stuff
like that
talking about
like look
white paper
like it's
not going
to appeal
understand their
marketing
ever going
to invest
that this
is a good
like number
one you guys
are fucked
number two
that white
paper as a
is the exact
same format
everyone's
educational
the point
they know
exactly the
player base
they want
they know
and they're
something
last point
I want to
this is an
education
onboarding
right now
running a
300 person
like Axie
learn about
interesting
the first
something
the interest
was there
innovative
developer in
this field
right the
only thing
we should
is presenting
a solution
that people
are willing
through 17
even with
core user
something that
actually works
the rest of
the stuff
like abstraction
of wallets
know social
on and so
what deposits
that's going
to be the
easiest shit
like I think
right now
like we just
need to focus
on educating
that player
base getting
into that
level where
this is really
what web 3
yeah no it's
insane you
mentioned that
last point
and Magic
Eden's airdrop
that happened
yesterday a lot
of people were
complaining about
how hard it
was to get
it but you
know I think
if you zoom
out and you
take a look
I feel like
we can be
super entitled
in this space
in the sense
that like you
know $300
or even $50
is a lot of
money for
someone out
there and
if you told
them that
they had to
five steps
and download
they probably
wouldn't be
complaining
about it as
really is
one of these
things where
wherever there's
friction that's
probably where the
you know most
value is in
terms of being
early and then
once kind of
people figure out
how to do it
it then becomes
more about
optimizing
onboarding and
so on and so
haven't spoken
to you boys
in a while
so I'll come
to you with
an interesting
trivia question
I'll start
with you Luke
in terms of
just taking a
look kind of
a step back
broader gaming
horizon not
for the year
which of the
three do you
think has
the highest
spend as a
segment right
as a percentage
across the
platforms is it
PC games is it
console games or
is it mobile
games yeah
mobile games I
think 70%
mobile games
is usually so
let me let me
again let me
rephrase it so
mobile games yes
highest spend as
a total but I
mean as a paying
segment like
within mobile
within PC
within console
which of the
three do you
think actually
has a higher
spend segment
I think big
spenders yeah
I think lots
transactions most
likely from
mobile but do
NFTs count in
that as well
like this news
will report
broader gaming
like broader
gaming then it's
it's most likely
interesting Connor
any thoughts
before I go to
this just web
three games or
is this games in
general no no
just video games
full stop and
the the question
is who has
the which the
platforms as the
largest paying
segment within it
so not the
largest spend
largest spend is
mobile yes everyone
knows that so in
terms of largest
spend mobile is
number one console
number two PC is
number three but
within each segment
which do you think
has the largest
like spender and
and I'll give you
even more of a
definition it's a
big spender is
someone that spends
over $25 or more
every month okay so
so which one of
those has the the
most biggest
spenders is that
what you're saying
I'll go PC yes
PC interesting
Sinjin any thoughts
yeah I just want to
jump in fucking
console absolutely
like battle
passes and fucking
FIFA and shit like
that and my son
stealing my credit
card and my wife's
credit card to do
all that shit I
can't see it not
being a fucking
console man yeah
so console out of
all players that
play on console 29
percent are
considered high
spenders so they
spend over $25 a
month second is
actually PC 22
percent mobile is
only 16 percent so
yes those micro
transactions do stack
up to make mobile
the largest segment
in terms of revenue
but on average if
you're a console game
you're probably getting
more paying players
within that segment so
I think that's
interesting because
we're starting to see
more where three games
actually make it to
console obviously off
the grid was the
first but I know
moon ray and a couple
of others it could be
a new you know kind
of paved way to
towards making more
revenue without having
to like tap into the
larger let's say app
store dynamic I think
you know PlayStation
store is still pretty
competitive but there's
probably less games and
less noise in general
I have a bias against
mobile games because I
always get distracted
and whenever I see
notifications on you
know Instagram or
Twitter or WhatsApp I
just can't get myself to
play a mobile game for
more than like five
minutes I do recognize
that a lot of people do
that but I can't find
myself doing that and I
can definitely you know
confirm what Sinjin just
said like just the amount
of money I spent on FIFA
alone I probably don't
want to know
what's up or is that a
an old hand oh is it to
me sorry you cut out for
a little bit yeah I saw
your hand up so I don't
know if it was yeah yeah
just just really quick
like I think I'm really
like not not just a
boomer like I'm a
grandpa right like I'm
almost 50 years so like
I'm a fucking fossil and
so like in some ways
though like just to say
this why I we why did
we make a PC game first
when obviously consoles
there and it you know
has so much more built
in distribution mobile's
there it has a huge user
base the dev cost
relatively is quite a bit
lower than doing a PC
game especially the
turnaround it's because
like you know if we're
talking about decentralized
and we're talking about
like kind of creating a
new model I think PC has
the least amount of like
barriers in the sense
that like yes there's
steam and there's epic
but you know if you have
the right marketing if
you have you know like
the marketing channels
you're confident of it
you know PC is definitely
the way to go and I
think that's you know the
entire thing is like we
talk about like distribution
and and getting into
console or into mobile but
what's the kind of trade
off there right you know
I think if we want to
kind of really do that 10x
I think we kind of have to
tough it out and kind of
see you know what it is
without these restrictions
initially that's just I
just want to throw that
out there yeah no that's
fair there's always a
trade-off but I did I did
have a follow-up question
that could be interesting
I'll push it over to you
Coop actually first in terms
of again this is broader
gaming right not not web3
only but in terms of the
geographic distribution of
gamers that try new games
so this is you know around
the world gamers trying new
titles that come out can
you I'll give you okay I'll
give you I'll give you five
chances can you give me any
of the top five countries
that you think are at the
top of that list just one
you can you just have to
know people that try new
games well maybe the
Philippines I hear that a lot
about them and being new to
well technology in general
yeah you're you're close
but they're top um well I
think I had six with Asia
still maybe Vietnam okay
that's a good shout it's
uh it's it's right in the
end of there five actually
uh Gabby do you have one
for me top five I already
told you it's not the
Philippines Thailand you
said yep that's number
three interesting right the
stats are pretty I mean I
I couldn't have guessed uh
any of these top five if
you asked me to be completely
honest Connor you want to go
for it one country in the
top five France yeah good
luck bro um not even close
like like maybe top 30 or
40 or something Luke you got
going for me I think uh
Nigeria um I think a lot of
mobile uh friendly games that
are coming out people don't
know there a lot I would have
would have also gone gone with
more Thailand or something like
yeah Nigeria is not on that
list it is I'm trying to look
nope not not even lower uh
Connor beat you France is
actually higher um but it might
be I mean yeah there's the
difference between like
Nigerian gamers playing the
same games that they know and
love versus like trying out
new games right um give me
one uh I'm gonna throw one
out I just want to know where
it stands Sweden Sweden is
like in the low I'd say 30s
oh interesting yeah so I'll
give you wait did I miss
anyone no I got everyone
right okay Gaspo actually
yeah Gaspo give me one UK
UK is um right above France so
it's UK Argentina and then
France that's still like low
20s Connor your hand is up
are you trying again what's
that uh what about China
ah he googled it look at him
he went to go I just like
most people yeah yeah I mean
you'd be right because number
one is China number two is
India is it the amount of
people or pair like 10 people
out of 100 it is it is the
highest receptiveness to new
gaming projects by a demographic
so could be also attributed to
the fact that it's a lot of
people but if you hear the
following ones I don't think
it's only uh population it might
be a percentage because number
one is China number two is India
those are obvious but the number
three is Thailand number four is
Egypt interestingly enough
there's only 120 million of us
out there um Saudi Arabia and
number five so that's 30 million
people Vietnam is number six
actually um and then number seven
which is you know surprising to me
is the UAE which uh you're
currently in Luke so a lot of us in
Dubai apparently trying out new
games uh Philippines is right
after Brazil Singapore Indonesia
Taiwan Mexico South Africa and the
list goes on and on and on um the
reason I bring this up is 2025
games that are coming out
obviously all the games in web 3
are new games um should they do a
better job at targeting these
regions I feel like everyone and
anyone that builds a game tends to
I I still remember this I'll never
forget this I was in a Wolves
Dow space gamified um someone said
tier one countries tier one players
versus tier three players and I
think that's such a dead like you
know framework and structure to look
at gaming these days because tier
one which you might consider as like
let's say big spenders right let's
say the US's of the world or the
Japan's or whatever it is they
probably don't even care about your
game realistically speaking like
they're not even looking at it
they're at the bottom you know
percentile in terms of interest in
new games versus all these
countries that are actually like
fully receptive to new games like
you should be focusing on China I
can't I can't name any game in web
three besides the Chinese games
where the Chinese studios that
focus on China I can't name half of
the top games right now that have
any focus on India I think maybe
more recently something like a
pixels or whatever could be looking
at something like that but besides
that like I don't know any games
that focus on Egypt like I can
guarantee you I've never seen a
web 3 game look at Saudi or the
UAE oh we do that I'm interested to
hear your thoughts we do that
Saudi Arabia UAE Turkey Middle East
Luke here you're out here you're
enjoying our golden coffee yes but we
also have an actor that is famous in
especially those areas like Engin
out on Tuesday time is if he goes
here on the street like there will be
100 people directly around them so
that's why we said we focus on that
target group and they are big
Spaniards like if you look at I mean
UAE of course but also Turkey Middle
East they they spend a lot of money
preach I think there's there's a
number somewhere I can't think of
right now but something like 80 or 85
percent of the Saudi population
considers themselves gamers so that's
that's an interesting number to look
at I'm curious to hear in terms of I
guess next steps looking forward we
reflected on the bat on you know the
past I don't want to do too much
award stuff because I feel like we
did that before I don't want to drown
this and the nostalgia because we're
already talking about next year
Gabby but yeah looking forward in
terms of what should wet three games
be doing whether that's you know
demographic focus whether that's
experimenting with stuff like AI
whatever it is what do you guys think
I want maybe one key I guess takeaway
or lesson or you know I guess wish list
item from each of you guys I'll start
with use engine because your hand is
open yeah I just want to say that I
would focus on the Middle East but my
game's not harem or it's very harem so
yeah like I don't think they
appreciate the sweet figures of my
NFTs I don't want to get anyone in
trouble for playing my game from the
clerics and so yeah I just want to
throw that out there for us moving
forward we're just about to sign an
MOU with to do a national launch in
Thailand whole thing a full-on national
launch in Thailand and the basis of it
is absolutely web to gamers where we are
going to take the time to really educate
them into what the you know the nature
of web 3 is and what that is for our
game and I think you know Coop mentioned
this about it as well and I think where
the narrative really changed was that yes
building in the communities is fantastic
and you know we're able to you know
release a game that's fairly balanced
because we did a year and a half of you
know public testing on and stuff like
this but in terms of like really getting
the user base and really finding out
what the marketing channels should be
you know we need to kind of focus on
what kind of web to you know marketing
channels we can kind of co-op into you
know what we want to really do and I
think that's definitely going to be the
future for people who have the budget
for it you know keeping in mind that you
know how much you spend in your game dev
like outside mobile I mean you're going
to spend at least that much for you know
marketing and you know I think if you get
the players and they're getting a real
ROI on stuff and the economy works the
rest will pretty much fall into place at
least that's the thesis
okay so Meiji Thailand new focus I like
it I'll ask each of you in a quick
fire round as well name one game that
you're excited about for next year
that's not yours Sinjin just the game
yeah did you die got who you know I know
Gabe you know we're friends and so he's
been cooking like a motherfucker you know
like it's like a 150 fucking artists or
some shit like that working on his game
and it's fucking slick as shit and he
knows what he's doing so I'm looking
forward to you know Gabe shit posting
again and just fucking making everyone
feel bad it's it's my daily joy
yeah new Super Bowl ad Gabby you're up
next something for games to reflect on
and do next year and your favorite game
next year is going to be all about
publishing like what is the publishing
playbook that is going to first kind of
crack the user base in terms of
acquisition retention monetization
as for favorite game because DG was
already mentioned I'm gonna go with
what Azra games is cooking they've also
been cooking really hard
yeah it's a sleeper not many people know
about Azra and what they're doing but
could be interesting to see I think
they're building multiple games right
it's not just one
that's right yeah I got the thumbs up
okay Coop you're up next and you can't
stay off the grid that would be
cheating they already won four awards
and they were game of the year so you
got to be a bit more creative sir
wow he ran away just because he can't
stay off the grid
Coop fell off the space I'll go to you
Luke and you can't see medieval
empire I think that was ragging on
purpose so game I look most forward to
next year's Avalon I think once it
launches because they have fucking
knights that have big swords and I'm a
big fan of that if you guys know or if
you haven't seen it on my timeline but
yeah looking forward to those guys and
what I wish for web 3 gaming especially
more features in the games that comes
with time I mean most of them focus on
their core game loop and now it's time
to ship all those features starts
already playing for example immortal
rising which is really nice and they
every week they have a new update which
I'm playing so there are lots of cool
games coming out and now it's time to
work on the retention I would say
beautifully said Connor had to jump off
because he has a call but I can pretty
much tell you that he would have said
I'm looking forward to more games doing
decks only launches and his favorite
game is rocket league because that's all
he wanted to say medieval empires he
told me that before he left yeah to be
fair he probably would have done that
for you Luke yeah I do I do agree
guess what what about you good sir I'm
just excited for more games to play and
keep trying them out I've got a couple
of a couple of new ones already on the
list and they just keep getting bigger
so I'm excited for that more than
anything the definition of just the
chill guy what about something that
games should be doing next year to get
more attention to success don't do
stupid stuff don't promise that you're
going to be the first this when that's
already happened don't promise that
you're triple a but you've only raised
ten pounds or ten dollars go for hype
but try and do hype that you're going to
be able to deliver on because there's
loads of games delivering at this point
that you'll just get outpaced really
quickly by people doing it with more
substance beautiful I just ripped this
last snippet off from everyone and use
it as a as a post stamp it on
everyone's forehead and say this is
what you need to keep an eye out for
next year and make sure you do before
2025 this is essentially four minutes
now going over time so thank you guys
so much for sticking around obviously
all the guests I know some of you had
to hop off but thank you also for
everyone listening in it's been a
pleasure as always I think we've got
what like two more weeks in the year
I don't know how many more press
plays maybe we'll do one right before
Christmas and then call it a day but
this is episode number 77 which is
crazy just thinking about when we
first started this if you just joined
in and you missed it don't worry it's
recorded you can listen back to it
also if you enjoy listening to these
things on your favorite podcast
platforms that's the word I was
looking for press plays on Spotify
Apple I think Amazon's got one and
then there's like Google there's a
bunch of random shit but anyways you
can listen to this back again thank
you guys so much this has been a
pleasure as always I don't do these
often but it's always fun when I do so
thank you for making my life a lot
easier and making George envious of the
energy in these spaces where he's not
around but yeah that's about it until
next time thank you everyone and
goodbye bye-bye have a great new
year's everyone thanks Omar thanks
extra hot on maybe