Hey there, how's it going? I'll go in good, good, good. You're telling me how's it going on your end? Yeah, I don't know, I'll thank you.
So I think we should start where the people will join in. So most likely from the US. Right. So hey everyone. Today we have Rn Mattmillon as our guest. He's a tower of such product manager and solidarity developer who has been building and working
to form of DAO since 2016. Any founded DAO Hub in 2021, I had helped launch Genesis DAO currently one of the largest DAO by Turkish size and developed activity and also co-founded the NOSA's Guild.
where it's focused on enabling a more accessible and composable Dao ecosystem, why others are the extended and tools. I'm your host, Nishikuman, founder and CEO of DaoStrup. DaoStrup is one terminal for users to discover, invest and participate in DaoStrup and you can visit our profile
the viewers of follow along with following RNNOS's skill. So starting out of the back RNN, can you talk to us about the beginning of NOSN's skill and how it came to fruition and what was the motivation behind it? Yeah, sir, I mean you touched on a brief thing.
the intro there. We essentially were, we were going to say we, I mean, no, so we were in the process of let me just spin out or create the noces down and transition the treasury that was held by
We had a very nice, a whole bunch of needs that were not quite fulfilled and not quite fulfilled in a way that we were happy with by the existing doubt, totally at the time.
And so no skill was kind of spun up as a team to, to kind of ideas on design architect and engineer solutions to solve for those needs. The first of
those was a module to the notice save that we had the time called the DAO module that we now call the reality module that essentially allowed us to plug snapshot into a notice if snapshot is an
and the way that gave us trustless execution on chain from the results of off-chain vote. And yeah, this is kind of a neighbor.
the nostrils off right now that meant not unreasonably restricting participation in governance because of really high gas costs, not unreasonably restricting. It's future abilities to change how it
and covering a lot of data, it's governance mechanisms. And yeah, from their notice skill has just been on this mission to essentially solve for governance problems mainly for the notice style, but
But in a way that is generalizable, so that any other on-chain organization can kind of make use of these tools to event through several iterations of this reality module and they're kind of surrounding tooling for it in terms of that.
the plugins for snap shots to make it confusing and relatively easy, but then also have things like our roles module, which gives you the ability to really find great access control on top of a safe delay module.
which lets you set up a verifiable delays between when an account triggers something to be executed and can actually be executed. Various iterations of bridge modules to allow for an address on one network to control a safe on another network.
And then a whole bunch of other supporting tooling for doing things like distributing tokens to all of their GNO holders when projects like ChaosWap and Safe spun out from NoSus and then just generally kind of more
to support the broader Dow ecosystem, things like a fork of the OZ governor contracts that uses this kind of zodiac pattern of plugging modules into a safe. So treating kind of governor
as a module to the safe in a way that makes it tooling compatible with all of the existing governance. Yeah, I guess that's a good backstory on why we created Noces Guild and some of the things that are done since.
it makes a lot of sense and I will definitely love to come back to Zoriac after some time. So, R&N and all these zeros can you check some light and evolution
of NOSS-GEL hotel now. So it has been like four to five years, right? So can you, can you pinpoint the evolutionary process from an insider's perspective?
Yeah, it hasn't been quite that long yet. And I guess it's really developed as a team in between kind of late 2020 and early 2021. So not quite that long yet. As a team,
And obviously we've grown and matured quite a bit in that time. And really, I don't know, take on a pretty broad set of different challenges. Again, everything from very direct needs driven development for the NOSA style to
And to implementing kind of novel solutions to problem faced by other team working for the nurse's tower working kind of on behalf of the nurse's tower, things like helping to enable non-custodial treasury management for
cup hacky or doing things like helping to facilitate the token drops for Chaos Warp and the safe and then also kind of broader Dow Ecosystem tooling and just kind
of unchain organization, totally, where, yeah, just broadly interested in and applying ourselves to whatever seemed like the most interesting problems for unchain organizations.
So in your view, what makes a Dow successful and how does NOSA star embody these qualities?
Oh, that's an interesting question. Yeah, yeah. Why do we need to say in, we can definitely talk about the kind of specifics of no-sister's case. I think the broad question is pretty, pretty tough to answer, you know, concretely.
I guess comparable to what makes any other organizations successful. I think it really is dependent on what the mission of the organization is and how well the organization kind of fulfills that mission. In a lot of cases, that's
driving value to, to, you know, from stakeholders in the organizations, but in other, other cases, the success of the organization might be mentioned in things like how much public good impact it's having or how much funding it's
it's managing to route through to charities their support or how many people it's able to employ consistently and steadily or any number of other kind of success metrics that
that it kind of defined by the organization itself or by the kind of mission of the organization. So these are really hard questions to answer broadly, maybe for Dow specifically, it's probably how well they are fulfilling their mission while also maintaining
kind of core values that they can make an organization a Dow or Dow like. I think the big thing there is obviously the trustless or kind of trust minimized and well distributed control over
the organization. And so like that caveat makes fulfilling, in some cases, makes it challenging to or adds an additional challenging to fulfill other missions, but it's kind of
the, I don't know, in service of an end goal of making the, the organization kind of as a whole more resilient, more capture resistant. And I think, you know, in the case of most, most hours, the goal there is to
create a mechanism that helps it to not deviate from its mission in a way that's not valuable in line with whoever that stateholders are. And in the case of no system,
I think, you know, that's just an interesting one. You know, it noticed I was just started out as an organization focused on prediction markets, hoping to bring prediction markets into the world and spend several years building a whole bunch of different
technology to enable them and kind of attempts at various different styles of prediction markets, but along the way also ended up building quite a bit of core infrastructure for the Ethereum ecosystem.
then it up becoming very successful in and of itself and eventually no, it's just going to make the call to focus primarily on that infrastructure rather than it's original mission so it's going to deviate it somewhat from it.
It's original mission, but I think it is still very much successful in that it's building products that many, many, many people use and trust and kind of spin the art teams that are building products that many, many people use and trust.
and continuing to foster a really cooperative collaborative and interesting ecosystem of people, of tools, of organizations.
within this kind of broader, necessary system. Cool. So now I'm going back to your baby with just no source gale, but you've got to find it. So Zoriak, if you go to your website, Zoriak is one in which catches our eye.
The Canadian delus oil thinks about Zodiac and the idea and vision behind it. Why did you came up with an in Zodiac? You'll be very honest.
This is a parallel that are a connection that folks make every now and again. It's not an old time to why we ended up going with Zodiac's our name. But yeah, I guess for backstory
there when we were thinking about the notice of style, how to build it. Again, we ended up coming up with this idea of a module that plugs into the notice of safe. We built this down module and then we essentially
actually in that process realized that there was a pattern for on chain organization building that enabled some really nice qualities, in particular, can have enabled this flexible, composable
pattern or a way of constructing organizations that made it much easier to have the organization change shape over time, which I think is a really important quality when we think about
you can have what organizations in the real world actually look like, what the pathways that they typically take are. So I think a good practical example might help to illustrate what this pattern is and why we think it's useful for you.
If you think about a project starting up, you might have a small handful of founders or call contributors. You've got a team of three folks that spin up some project. They needed to have some on-chain
representation right away and so they create a safe multi-seag, make it a two out of three safe multi-seag, but they control whatever assets they have on chain and they have governance rights over whatever on chain system they've deployed. They spin on this project and
And then over time it came to following at some point they decided we want to start giving our community, the people that we're using this, some measure of control over it. And so they decided it will spin up an off-chain vote in snapshot so that we
We can make proposals, vote on it, and choose whether or not to execute it as the multi-six on us. This is a neat first step to give you the community some voice, if not actual control over the organization.
Next step might be to say, okay, at some point we, we as the founders have realized that there's the community has really good ideas, seems to have a good grasp of what's important for the organization. We trust that they'll make the right decisions.
Let's enable this reality module to actually more concretely give the community whose main proposals and voting on snapshot a kind of more permissionless way of execution.
computing on chain transactions without having to go through the multi-seag signers. So we plug this reality module in another community can kind of autonomously make transactions from the proposals on snapshot in parallel
the multi-six writers still have in the lateral control. So you come up with these two mechanisms now that have the ability to make transactions or just kind of trigger the save to make transactions. Over time, it may be valuable for the human
to now restrict the capabilities of the multi-seq harder for security reasons that no longer make sense for two out of three people to be able to make decisions for this entire ecosystem. So maybe they can install a transaction guard that limits
the scope of what those multi-six owners are allowed to do. Maybe they retain veto rights over the proposals coming through from snapshot, but they don't have the ability to execute arbitrary transactions. So this would be a nice mitigation of that.
that power, I can have limitation of that power that the multi-six signers had to start with. And then eventually, perhaps the multi-six signers get removed altogether. So you had this reality module plugged into the safe, any kind of no more multi-six signers.
This is kind of a, I guess a good illustration of one possible progressive decentralization journey, kind of starting at small team, small kind of family team and progressing into something much more like a...
for Dal-like entity. There's obviously many, many different possible combinations of modules and that part can look very, very different, but this seems to be a fairly common pattern.
that's been enabled. I think the other thing that's really important about this pattern is enabling kind of potability between frameworks. So traditionally if you were to say, spin up a mollock down and then you're going
organization that crews their treasury and has control over hand forward different on chain systems and has external references kind of different websites and whatnot pointing back to your Molyc Dows address as the economic hold kind of on chain representation of your organization.
And then say, I don't know, a year down the road, you just said, hey, Mollick, no longer does what we want it to do. We'd like to migrate over to Arrogant. And you have this humongous switching cost where you've got to migrate all of the assets that you controlled or that you're Mollick down controls if you're going to migrate.
update all of the systems that your moly dhal was an owner of, I had a role in, and then you've got to update all of the kind of external references back to that moly dhal which organizations on chain entity and update those to your Irogon Dhal.
in most cases, you probably don't control those external references. And then lastly, you kind of have to maintain control of that mollus down contract indefinitely in case it, you know, at some point in the future has some assets access and to lead transfer to it or something like that. So this is kind of indefinite.
amount of time you still have to maintain at least a watch on it and the ability to fall back to still controlling it if necessary. I say yeah, this kind of humongous switching cost is resolved just by having some separation between
essentially the thing that is the account on chain and the mechanisms that control it. So rather than bundling the account into the system of contracts that also control it in a way that's not really severable or portable, Zodiac basically
We have an account that is your organization's on chain avatar. It's the place that you store assets, place at you. The account that you use to control other systems and it's the account that you reference externally.
make that a separate account using something like the SAFE and then plug other mechanisms like any of the existing DAL Frameworks in as modules to that SAFE to control it. That way when you want to switch from Molyc DAL to Arrogondale for example, then it's just kind of one proposed
or to add the new module and disable the old module, and migration is complete without any of the headaches of ongoing maintenance and without any of the risk and headache of transferring and updating and all this kind of stuff.
So, it's moving on to my next question. So how does modulality of tools help in building better and robust ecosystem within DAO? Yeah, I think there's a couple of pieces there. I mean one is obviously there.
flexibility that we've just talked about, the ability to enable organizations to adapt, to change, to grow over time in a way that is not as easily possible without that kind of modularity.
Another is I think that the size and scope of what each of the individual tools do, because each of the individual tools are very focused. They can kind of do one job, do one job really well, and be small.
relatively easily auditable components that you can kind of trust to do that job really well. And then also it makes it much easier for third parties, for if they can have anyone to come along in
build components just to add the functionality that they want without having to kind of re-engineer the entire rest of the stack. And so we've observed this already time and time again with this kind of Zoli-Akpad and its organizational
coming in and just building additional modules or additional guards to solve for small needs or to implement their flavor of a module that exists. So we have various different implementations of the bridge module that functions
function with different bridge mechanisms because teams have come in and said, hey, we like the idea of this bridge mechanism, this bridge module, but we would prefer to use some other bridge to pass data between two different networks. So we really like this idea of this reality.
module, but there's this other article that we'd like to trust for it. So like the UMA team built the OSNAP module, which is functionally very similar to the reality module, but it just uses the UMA Oracle system instead.
which is really, really cool to see this kind of diversity of implementations of the same kind of ideas. I think that ability for folks to come in and rebuild discrete components of the system with slightly different implementations
or to build very small novel components that can then be plugged in to create complex combinations is a really, really great feature of this modular approach to organizational tooling.
So come to my next question. The vision of open interlinked organization with its perspective or react which you guys are building. Why let essential and what benefits can our builders and members to write for me.
So, could you please the last part there? I didn't catch it properly. So, my question is, you have a particular vision of building an open
an interlinked organizational tooling system, right? So why is it essential and what benefits can thou build those and numbers derive from it?
Yeah, so I mean, I think it's really essential. I maybe backing up a little bit. I think one of the things that has been proven to be really valuable in the Ethereum and kind of brought a Web 3 ecosystem.
at a whole bunch of different levels. This is going to plurality of implementation, especially choice when you're wanting to do any one particular thing. And so this kind of small
modular, relatively discrete components that you can kind of chain together again, mix and match in arbitrarily complex ways. I think it's an ecosystem of these things.
particular in ecosystem that has redundancy or has choice in any given option allows for much more robust design choices essentially allows organizations to
Builds, again, arbitrarily complex setups from many different potential pieces. And ultimately, craft setups that better match their actual needs.
This is kind of a really vital piece to the Dow Eucharist system. I guess like flourishing in the way that I think a lot of us would like to see it flourish. This kind of commissionless
modularity is a huge enabler of many, many different types of organizations, assuming they're kind of formed that will enable them to
operators they intend to and operate kind of efficiently and grow and change over time. Great. So, I wanted to mention and then the new vision you also talk about the partnerships I can with the
So one of the neglected pieces in Web 3, a lot of folks don't really know about. So can you dive deep into how can partnerships play an important role in building ecosystems and creating a better future for the house?
Yeah, I've been in the context of the Zodiac, I think, the neat quality or kind of more than neat qualities is that actually kind of explicit partnerships are not at all required. It's definitely a permissionless
system to come in and build your own thing that conforms to the standard. I think probably the more important thing than partnerships there are standards is having common interfaces that modules or components in
know, given system can conform to and knowing that the function as expected with or without the blessing of anyone else. Anyone can come along and create a module that conforms to the, the, the, the, the extended and it will plug in.
and function as implemented without having to go and seek explicit approval from anyone. This is a really important key judge for allowing organizations to operate efficiently based on their own
terms. That said, it's also this ecosystem of building small modular components, definitely encourages cross-collaboration where, again, you might be building something that can reimplements an existing
using a different mechanism or building something that could chain together or work in parallel with some other mechanism. It's definitely beneficial to collaborate with the authors of and users of the
the various other components that you see your thing interacting with. And so I think it's nice because partnerships can definitely be beneficial, but are not at all required for participating in this kind of ecosystem.
So one of the most prominent features of Zodiac is pattern spilt. So can you shed some light on it?
patterns and how how do at me as a person who is not too much into WebTekhan understand what's going on. But it becomes bit of complex if we farm not our WebTekhan person to look at.
Yeah, so we have, we've been working on this kind of library of different patterns, essentially to help address some of that learning curve issue when folks are thinking about how to solve
various problems, how to design their organization. So we've been cataloging the various different patterns that people use to solve for problems that might come up. So things like, you know,
So AA Delay function is a common patent for ensuring that folks have enough time to respond to a proposal before it's actually executed. Or the kind of rage quit/exit function is a way for folks to
to kind of leave with their share of an organization. You can have at any time, and the combination of the two creates this nice structure where if a change is made,
or a proposal seeks to make a change that you disagree with and you have the ability to exit prior to it or to rage quit prior to it's that proposal going through. And so yeah, just kind of cataloging these various different patterns
that are solutions to kind of common problems and then describing the ways that you can implement in using various different tools is a big part of what we've been working on before Zodiac.
on the kind of non-technical site, you know, just in terms of helping to catalog and propagate information to make it easier for people kind of designing, building and using this ecosystem of tooling.
So we are coming to our last question guys. So if you have anyone of you have any question these two days to hand over here so I can bring you on board and you can ask your question to
and directly and also give us a follow at our stuff access it and give RN and also still to follow. So RN my last question to you is can you see thoughts on future of tooling and
Yeah. I mean, I hope that we'll see the kind of continuation and expansion of this idea of
standardized modularity, standardized interfaces for the modular components of organizations and then see an expansion of the amount of tools, the amount of options that folks have to, I guess,
that they're disposed of when they're designing and implementing on chain organizations. More specifically, I guess there's two things that I'd really love to see be implemented and get more widely used, I think one is
private voting, a secret voting, like I very much love to see tools for enabling essentially a secret ballot, a voting process as well. I can, as a voter, cast my votes.
But I don't have any way to prove how I voted to anyone else. And I think this is really important for essentially collusion resistant voting, for voting that's not susceptible to, to bribery and other forms of coercion.
will enable a whole different class of doubts to exist. And then the other type of tooling that I'd really love to see for the developers is essentially
give a kind of desired outcome from uncoordinated input as opposed to requiring kind of an explicit vote to make something happen. And that's a really kind of hand-wavy way of describing what I'm talking about.
So, you know, a practical example there is quadratic funding for allocating capital to any of those systems, public goods. This is a mechanism where your desired outcome is
There's a well allocated pool of capital to the projects that your ecosystem value is that your community can have to arrive value from.
And the mechanism by which you get to kind of this well allocated pull of capital is from the uncoordinated contributions of individuals to the projects that they value. So you have all of these kind of small discrete inputs. People
making contributions to the project that they value and then the mechanism quadratic funding is over there kind of spit out an allocation based on that without having to have a
more grants committee or something like this, decide how funds are allocated without having to have a explicit vote on whether or not to give each project some amount of funding.
a flight, the second of strategy just applied to all kinds of different problems. Like how do we identify a desired outcome and then build a mechanism that that outcome is the emergent result of just uncorordinated inputs into some system?
I will do it in 30 seconds or before
Yeah, so I don't I don't see any hands. So I was it was our pleasure hosting you on our Twitter space today. We very much loved about learning more about so the act.
and patterns which was actually vexing me a lot. Not able to understand a lot of things. But yeah, it was a great session hosting you and I will love to do it again sometime really soon.
Yeah absolutely, this is a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on board. Thanks, Tansar. To folks in India, goodnight. To folks in US, have a very lovely afternoon. Yeah, bye bye.