Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
Advanced DeFi Use Cases 101: The Aggregated Ep. 154
Recorded: March 20, 2026 Duration: 1:44:00Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Music Music Music
Music
Music
Music
Music
Music
Music
Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music The Thank you. so Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video. Thank you. Music
Music Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go to the next episode of the video. Thank you. I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video.
I'm going to go to the next video. I'm going to go to the next video. Thank you. good morning everyone hey hey good morning. Good morning. Good morning.
Yeah, or good afternoon or good evening or good night, I guess, depending on where you are in the world, right?
Yep, yep.
What time is it for you, Renat?
It's 11.09 a.m.
You just doxed yourself, man man now I know where you're at yeah the time zone is is uh well I could be in some places how is the weather in
uh and am I allowed to actually can I dox you? It's public where you live.
Well, right now, yeah, I'm doing this call.
I'm in Puerto Rico.
Yeah.
How's the weather?
Weather is amazing. It's been a very cold winter, meaning like 80, 70 degrees range. But yeah, it's all good you said 87 no no i 70 to 80 fahrenheit
okay yeah yeah puerto rico has i swear the best weather i need to get i'm i need to get back
there i'm supposed to be there in like a week, but I'm debating going or not.
Yeah, 78 Fahrenheit is like peak Scottish summer.
All right, so let's get going, guys.
We're not going to get into the DeFi.
Let's go.
So introductions first, maybe, or no?
Just straight into DeFi.
Sure. Renat, why don't you tell us who you are?
Well, I've been in the Ethereum space since 2016, working on building.
16 working on building.
What is now like contributed to what is now is DeFi
and RWAs started with a project that we build
with the hackathon for the devs who flew
to DevCon in Shanghai for them to use it and hedge against
risks you deposit one eat into smart contract if your flight is delayed a consult you get
like seven each compensation and for the next year in devcon incun, we added a license. So for Cancun DEFCON, those who bought the production,
they 0.03 out of every ETH went to the government of Malta
as a premium tax for regulating the sale of the regulated
financial product by smart contract.
And since then, I have contributed.
We did both myself as an individually
and as a product dev DAO, we were responsible for seven
separate projects at MakerDAO.
During single collateral die, multi-collateral die era, we did research on
great delegation markets for Aave. And in general, the topic for the LP tokens as collateral is dear
to me because during the single collateral to multi-colonial diet transitioning uh we had
maker high hopes on adding collaterals that don't correlate with eth or bitcoin
and we there were a number of uh interim risk teams uh i was one of the interim running one
of the interim risk teams to help uh get uh good collateralsals listed so that every time it would go up
or go down we wouldn't have everyone rushing into either buy and re uh buy uh die and repay the loan
uh we had a huge like peg problem at the time so uh that those collaterals
problem at the time. So those collaterals, I was giving us it's like invoices from US
trucking companies and had to calculate stability field on the value, debt ceiling,
liquidation penalty. And that kind of sent me down this rabbit hole of risk of bad debt.
I would say that's my specialty with the team and research that
we've done over the years on how to list, how to manage the risk of bad debt caused
by a specific collateral to CDP style stablecoin like MakerDAo Dai, or to a money market like Aave, where there
is a common pool out of which you borrow, whether by minking or by withdrawing, borrowing
assets from like an Aave style pool.
But the risk of a debt is pretty much the same, and the risk is shared. The more collaterals you can use, the more distinct risks of bed debt
caused by those specific collaterals being accrued by the system, so that managing that
exposure, that's my, I would say my specialty.
That's it. Who may be next?
Yeah, we're not is one of the smartest risk and DeFi people I know in the,
in the industry by far.
All right.
Noia AI.
Yeah. Hey, guys.
My name is Omar.
I'm the founder of Noya.
We're building agents for DeFi and prediction markets.
Really glad to be here.
Thank you for hosting the AMA, guys.
And hopefully we're TG-ing very soon and partnering up with QuickSwap after TG.
So pleasure to be here, guys.
All right. the cookies quick swap after TG so pleasure to be here guys all right uh Anados
GM rock Jim guys it's great to be here and the marketing manager at Anados so we're a small but dedicated and decentralized team from europe
mainly greece and we're building this super app for over three years now i'm not trying to reinvent
the banking but actually replace it in the long run so we're building this on xrpl ledger and
it's great for our purpose we have a goal to go multi-chain later on since we want to launch this new bank thing.
So the wallet is live, you can test it out.
It's great.
And our name Anadis comes from the Greek word
for a path off word,
which actually captures our mission perfectly.
As we strive to move finance from this back,
intermediate driven systems towards
clarity accountability and trust through blockchain code suppose that so in short we're building this
super app a new gateway to financial freedom out of this legacy banking and clunky web to finance
and we're here to build connections share expertise please follow us visit our website
there's a lot of education going on
and yeah thanks for the invite good to have you and protifier
the legendary protifier i don't think the profile can't stalk it uh we've got the big man up all right sounds good darren you
want to introduce yourself i wasn't planning on it um yeah darren um head of ecosystem at quick
swap which basically just means that i pretend to be a panda um Seems to be going okay They let me have access to the Twitter account
Yeah
That'll do
Nicole
I'm Nicole
Nerdgirl007
I don't know
I don't pretend to be anything
Just me.
Okay.
We definitely need to work on the intros.
All right, guys. I'm Rock Zacharias.
I'm the CEO of Lunar Digital Assets, a venture studio that incubated Polygon and QuickSwap and many others.
I'm also a co-founder of Litecoin Virtual Machine,
which is the only Litecoin layer 2,
and it's endorsed by Charlie Lee and the Litecoin Foundation.
We just announced yesterday that Charlie Lee actually has joined as an advisor.
So pretty excited about that to have
the creator of Litecoin on the team. Pretty exciting. Yeah, I'm co-founder of QuickSwap.
I'm a mentor for Tim Draper's Bitcoin Fi Accelerator, and I'm head of Global Leadership Council for Michael Turpin's BitAngels.
I also advise the Polygon executives after we've merged the grants and investment program
into Polygon's other structures now that the landscape has changed a lot in the industry, mainly regulatory.
All right, Nicole, you want to take us away and get us started?
and get us started.
Yeah, yeah, I can do that.
Yeah, yeah, I can do that.
All right.
So, yeah, so I want to ask,
like, what are the most underrated DeFi use cases
people still aren't using?
I think, not being biased here,
but merging DeFi and prediction markets is really cool.
What we're building right now is like delta neutral vaults on top of prediction markets
and then tokenizing them, looping them, getting yield from trading fees.
As you can see, like the volume of prediction markets is up only.
And we feel like this yield can be used in DeFi.
And yeah, I feel like merging DeFi prediction and prediction markets is pretty
interesting and looking forward
for this category to grow even more
that's a good one
it's a really good one
would anyone
here consider prediction
markets DeFi
yeah it's I would say it's
DeFi but as far as use cases I would say it's DeFi, but as far as use cases, I would say there are probably
three distinct design spaces that I would say that we could classify all the use case problem, at least in those three major markets, one would be the leverage,
right? Which is if you have an asset that has some value, DeFi, the number one kind
of major use case that has emerged in Ethereum was leverage.
It was not Uniswap,
it was like the DAI MakerDAO minking, right?
That achieved a good scale, right?
The Aave compound.
around. So this leverage is one. The second distinct design space, probably the payments,
So this leverage is one.
right? And everything that surrounds the transfer of value, medium of exchange, there's hundreds of tokens that are now suitable for that.
Stablecoins are one of them, right? And then the third probably would be,
bucket would be the investment products that either were hard to discover, acquire, of all sorts.
Hundreds and thousands of asset classes can be made possible to access.
And I would say the prediction markets as an example would be one of such use cases in that bucket, right?
It's a way to monetize the skill, right?
Like basically, what's the difference between like betting and prediction markets?
It's probably some advocates would say it's a game of skill right
and so anyway they that's what i how i think that these are like three major buckets uh leverage
payments and uh while you transfer uh and uh and then the uh asset classes of all sorts from meme coins to prediction markets to
rwas all sorts of use cases uh under the bucket so that's my answer yeah i was just about to say exactly what ronat just said on like everything is defy when you think about it
like even doge was like the first real financialized sort of meme that people could speculate on um
memes weren't like a financial asset until yeah doge popped up the other meme coins um i don't
think there's many things that we can't turn into DeFi at this point. It's more about finding the things that actually make sense to financialize and then play with.
I feel like a good angle would be as well, you can consider some markets and prediction markets to be similar to options.
similar to options where like when you're betting on the price of a single mark of a market and you
can consider like the the payoff that you'd get is very it's very similar it's very similar to
options and i feel like it would be a good like an interesting uh angle to look at prediction markets
for some uh for some products as as options to uh like betting whether bitcoin would go up or down
but at a certain time.
It's a very similar contract to an option as well.
Yeah, I agree.
It could be described as like long out of the money put option, for example.
Yeah, 100%.
We also had VL Labs come up on the stage if you want to do a short intro.
Hello everybody, can you hear me alright?
Yep.
Yep.
Awesome, awesome.
Yeah, so hi, I'm Cletus, COO behind VL Labs.
We're a cross-chain interoperability protocol building on 140 different blockchains
so what that means for those you guys in the crowd who may not be experts in DeFi or in blockchain is
we're that connective tissue between blockchains think of us as a road or an airport that's deployed on every single blockchain
that people can use, either companies, dApps, or users themselves to build smart contracts
that send messages from chain to chain, where you could build a bridge, you could onboard RWAs and
send those between multiple chains, stablecoin transfers, any sort of cross-chain communication that you can think of,
VLabs is your home for that.
But to answer your question about, say, the most slept on part about DeFi and all that,
I'd like to keep it simple where stable coins themselves and earning a yield on stable
coins, I think that's really going to change the industry with your lending apps that are already
even out there, like Aave or any other one that you may know of. And the important thing is that a lot of this liquidity,
it may be on Ethereum or it may be on Arbitrum or some of these other larger chains. But when
that liquidity is locked on a specific chain, it needs to transfer from one chain to another. Maybe
there's a better yield on a smaller chain
and so one of the things that people often don't think about is how can you more easily move your funds from one chain to another and be able to earn a yield on that and so
to kind of tie it all together that's one of the things that viaabs is trying to solve.
One of the things I'd say,
I don't know if it's a DeFi element that's slept on
and it gets lots of attention,
but I am curious, kind of actually
going back to the last
question I had about whether
prediction markets are DeFi.
Is Bitcoin DeFi?
I consider Bitcoin DeFi.
It's the ultimate money medium of exchange and store of value.
It's a savings account. it's a bank in your pocket
i mean i think that's the most bitcoin i think is arguably the most powerful piece of defy
yep it's uh and now with the probably i would add to that the the first attempts to make the
the first attempts to make the, if you guys like remember when the first attempts to simplify
usage in day-to-day lightning, right, like eight, seven years ago, it's still ongoing,
but it's so primitive, so ossified, IDBitcoin itself, that it has some limitations
that it's quite tricky to make it usable or catch up
with the Turing complete, like the programmability of any arbitrary logic you can express and uh in the form of uh
smart contracts and uh solidity viper rust and so on right in damu but uh it's catching up the
gap was closing and now we're seeing uh the results of that work making the bitcoin uh usable in uh the same type of leverage
use cases right the uh escalator right uh as the medium of uh exchange uh payments right uh and uh
payments right and in all sorts of assets that it can help back and that can derive from it
the gap is closing and are we there are a few projects that like ptvm and a lot of others
that the babylon working on on one particular, actually, integration of Bitcoin with Aave before.
So it's quite exciting times to see Bitcoin to become like first class citizen in use cases that we all knew for years.
Right. But it wasn't the gap was too big.
And now it's closer.
Yeah. The gap was too big, and I was closing. I've researched them before,
and I feel like these solutions are still primitive
because of the peg, right?
Because when you want to withdraw out of this L2,
you would need either to have sufficient bonds,
or you'd need to have OP-CAT enabled
so that you can have a a zk proof verified on chain
right so so so i feel like still the trust assumptions are pretty pretty uh like you need
to have uh trust the the bridge you need to trust the amount of bitcoin in the bond and it can't
exceed uh you know the bitcoins can't exceed the amounts of bitcoins in the bond so so i think
still early up until like they doCAT or something like that,
then I feel like Bitcoin L2s would be somehow similar in a trustless manner to Ethereum.
Explain about these bonds more.
Yeah, so as I understood how this works is that you have certain amounts of Bitcoin that you, like, optimistically, you know,
prove pegging, going out from the L2 to going into the L2, right?
So once you go out, you need to, like, you need to prove,
you need to prove that this amount is, this transaction is valid right and if you don't have as many bitcoins in collateral
as as in the l2 then you know the trust assumptions are weak right so so so so it's very limited
as far as i've researched it before it's very limited you need to have like a set amount of
bitcoins to secure a smaller amount amount in there too this is how i
understood if someone else knows something else i mean it makes sense right you would have to have
i mean shouldn't it be one-to-one yeah exactly exactly but this is for the user, not for the people, not for the verifiers.
Right?
So the people who are verifying going out from the L2, they'd stake a bond.
And this amount needs to be lower, so it needs to be higher than the amount on the L2 itself.
Which channel are you talking about?
Are you talking about BitVM in general in its current state i think i think i researched i researched last time
what's its name um starts with a c citron or something like that yeah i forgot the exact name
of the l2 yeah there's so many different flavors on Bitcoin. There's, I mean, there's over 100, you know, L2s built on Bitcoin.
Probably only, you know, five or 10 of those are, you know, legit, I would say.
But eventually they'll solve it, right?
I think for me as a Bitcoiner, the more ideal scenario is take our time,
do it right,
and mess with the L1 as little as possible.
I don't want a bunch of changes to the L1.
I worry that I'm an osophist.
So my biggest concern there is that
if you start messing with the L1, the more you
mess with it, the more you'll mess with it. The more you set, like you move the Overton window
towards it's okay to mess with the L1. And I don't think it should be okay to mess with the L1
because then in the future, you have the potential for people to try to change the things that really matter,
the inflation rate or the maximum amount of Bitcoin or these things.
And I think it's just, I don't trust humans.
That's the biggest problem.
That's the problem with governments too, is we need governments.
As a libertarian, I'll still make the argument we
need governments, but the problem is, is governments get larger and larger and more ability to change
things, change our lives. Then we just get used to it. And then they get doing more and more.
And now they want to know like what color underwear you're wearing. Every day it gets more invasive.
And so in Bitcoin, I think we should try to keep it as much to trusting math and code as possible and avoid trusting developers. The core devs of Bitcoin, I think, are pretty solid people, but
do I want them to be making my life decisions for me? No, I would
rather actually, they just block most decisions. I think that's actually a more valuable thing,
is that we don't change it too much. We leave it reliable. We know what the rules are. And we force
everybody who wants to use it to build pieces on top of it that don't require
l1 changes and there's there's a ton of them like for with quantum for example we're uh talking with
and kind of working with david chom on uh some quantum stuff um for bitcoin and you know one
of his big things is that the solution he's built doesn't require any forks.
So you can get quantum resistance without forking the L1
because that's going to be the biggest thing we kind of run up against
with quantum for Bitcoin is are people willing to actually fork the L1
and make big changes?
And if they are, which I think a lot of people are willing
to fork for that, I think we've all known for a long time. And I don't like forks, but for quantum,
I've always known, you know, this is probably going to have to happen at some point.
But then it's, what is the fork? What's the best option? There's all kinds of options being
presented. And so now you might get, you know, a big argument and you already are, it's already a
big, pretty big argument in Bitcoin of how, how do we get quantum resistance? What's the right
solution? And then you get, you know, that comes with a bunch of issues. Anyone have thoughts on I just agree 100%. Hopefully they'll solve quantum resistance without the hard fork.
That's the biggest thing currently.
Yeah, huge implications if it succeeds because of the looming problem. And probably one of the reasons we have, until there is a solution that there is a consensus around that it's going to work, we're going to adopt it, right? There will be uncertainty for players to commit for new longer term use case.
I mean, longer term is fine, right?
But the short to mid term, meaning like several years time frame, right?
It's kind of a big concern for a lot of people.
It seems like.
Is it correct, Rog?
What do you think?
Yeah, I think there's a lot of debate about, you know,
how much of an issue it actually is or, you know,
when it'll become an issue.
There's some people, I meanom for example is very concerned about it um and made me more concerned about it because i i wasn't very
concerned about it either you know richard our chief of staff had brought it up on some
i remember you know on a on multiple meetings and one of the times I was like, all right, quantum is not an issue.
Let's stop talking about it. We're wasting time.
It's not going to happen for another five or ten years or whatever.
People just keep bringing it up, and it's kind of annoying.
when people are like, Bitcoin's going to die, Bitcoin's going to die.
People are like, Bitcoin's going to die, Bitcoin's going to die.
And then I talked to Chom shortly after that,
and he gave me a bunch of reasons of why we should be concerned with it now.
And so I had to go back and eat my words and tell Richard,
okay, maybe you were right.
Maybe I was brushing you off too much on this one.
I guess the reason for
I guess the reason for...
the reason that
one of the reasons CHOM
thinks that we should be worried
is just that the government
has so
are usually so much further ahead
than they let us know on these kind of things
and so yeah while the commercial entities
you know might be still
five years away it's very possible governments are two or three years ahead of them.
Right. And when Biden's administration came and put out a warning that or not a warning, it was like kind of a guidance that said, or even I think maybe a requirement that banks and any departments that had to do with defense, etc.
Had to start adding quantum resistance soon. I'm almost saying he thinks the reason they're saying that is because they know that they have, you know, some quantum or they know that China or someone or North Korea or whatever are getting close.
So it's time to start upgrading all the systems.
I mean, but even if they upgrade the system, is anyone talking now?
Hello?
No, just you.
Yeah, I see you run out and mute.
I wasn't sure if I could just get near.
I mean, even if they upgrade the system, what about all the legacy?
I mean, even not Bitcoin.
It's like Bitcoin, Doge, all the other assets
that are just sitting there waiting to be claimed.
There's a guy in the UK that threw out a laptop
and then it had apparently like 300 million
worth of BTC on it
so he literally like
I think he sued the local council
to get access to the
the like
dump where the laptop
was located and then he searched that for months
so I mean
there's 300 million just sitting right there
yeah so that's one of the issues is if you don't block out these old funds,
then Satoshi's funds, as well as any lost funds,
all become potentially, you know, attackable by the quantum.
attackable by the quantum.
Because one of the
things is
we think that
I mean, the main way
that you would upgrade,
you would have to have
people voluntarily opt
into like, or they would have to move
their coins from an old wallet,
a legacy wallet, to a new quantum resistant
wallet. This isn't for
sure,
but it seems likely that's,
you know,
that may be needed.
So what the other option is,
if you don't want to have that because you don't want those dead coins to like all of a sudden flood the market is you might have to block any wallets that
haven't moved in a long time or you make, or you make those coins the way Chom is doing it is you might have to block any wallets that haven't moved in a long time or you make or
you make those coins uh the way chom is doing it is you you make those coins just uh have a
they have a market determined lesser value over time until q day where they now go to they're
worth zero those coins that haven't been moved to another wallet. So there's a bunch of different ways you could do it.
But yeah.
There is a company that I have no affiliation with this company at all, but the BTQ Technologies,
I just did a quick search on them.
They released a test that apparently was today that does this very thing that you're talking about,
where it's quantum resistant.
And what you do is you would send your tokens, your Bitcoin, to another address.
And that address itself is quantum resistant.
So it's not a hard fork in any way.
It's more of just a migration of your account, of your wallet address. And
at that point, then you're protected. And I hope Bitcoin too, and the way that I see
it, that would probably be the most seamless way of doing so, as opposed to trying to get
through a hard fork on the network, because you're going to run into many roadblocks if you try to do that or yeah
who's doing that sorry to stop you in your thoughts it's a ETQ technologies
this is what I'm seeing right now it's a protocol called VIP 360. Oh, yeah, yeah.
So interestingly, I was part of a group of people that put together a meeting for a lot of the people that are involved in that to discuss how to deal with this. So I got Chom and David Chom and the 360 guys and the quantum Bitcoin guys
over being incubated by DNA fund, as well as Tachi and some others together for a meeting in Vegas
where they were discussing.
It sounds like it's been moving forward more.
I haven't been involved in the talks lately, but interesting.
I mean, that solution that you're talking about right there
is what CHOM is building.
So I didn't know that 360, though, would take that path.
Interesting.
I got to get caught up on what's been going on with all this.
Yeah, this is my first time hearing about it,
but it seems to be the most efficient path forward
as a Bitcoin holder,
where you just send your Bitcoin to another address,
and there you go.
It's now quantum resistant
the problem is what happens to
the people
who don't send
what happens to dead coins
do they just get
are they vulnerable or are they excluded
yeah it would be a big
surprise for everybody if Satoshi's wallet came online and then one about
transferred to to a quantum resistant wallet and uh yeah that'd be a pretty big day for everybody
wouldn't it but the question is what happens to the the coins if they do not move are they
excluded now and they go their value goes to zero?
Or are they just flooded onto the market because the quantum computers just scoop up all those and sell them?
Are they vulnerable?
That's the hardest question to deal with.
That's what everyone's trying to figure out is how do we deal with those, those coins?
I mean,
the reality is as well is obviously you talked about Q&A and like the, the sort of time-based proposal that David had,
but if China is making a quantum computer,
they're not going to tell anyone until like they've already got Satoshi's tokens.
Yeah, I mean, and that was that was Chom's point, right, is that the governments are not going to tell anyone but the when you know
biden's admin says hey uh everybody should upgrade to quantum resistance you know it's
his thing is they probably know something that we don't know and the reason he knows a lot about
this and because i was like skeptical and so he went on this like I think this might
have been when I was Cindy and I were at his house and uh he made us um a beef wellington for lunch
that was nice and we had some some non-alcoholic beers because he doesn't drink beer but um we
were at David Chom's house and he um I think this was when he was telling me about this stuff and saying how, because he used to host the biggest cryptography conference in the world that was not government.
So the government had their own conference thing they would host.
And then he hosted this other conference that was just like, you know, cypherpunk type of people.
And he said that the government people would sometimes come to his conference and he'd be trying to talk to them about like, look, this is like what we're trying to do.
And often he would tell them something and they would just be like, oh, yeah, we've been doing that for a while.
Tell them something and they would just be like, oh, yeah, we've been doing that for a while.
You're a little late on that one.
You're a little late on that one.
So like not always, he said, but like sometimes there would be, you know, things where the government was just way ahead of them on.
Yeah, crazy stuff.
How is that going to work now as the government, you know, is going deep on AI?
Which I think is really smart. They're using it now in the military pretty heavily. They're starting to use a
bunch of these companies, Anthropik, et cetera.
All right. We're so in the weeds. Let me just bring it back to the topic, to DeFi, because we got into Bitcoin and then quantum and now AI.
So let me just like, I want to take it back to something we were talking about prediction markets as DeFi and like prediction markets as collateral.
Like that sounds crazy. Is that going too far into degeneracy
um well what what we're doing is there are some prediction markets that are
permissionless and their architecture is similar to like a uni uni v3 or uni v2 pools
and what we're doing is that we're just like LPing across these different markets,
getting the fees, tokenizing the vault, and that would be used in DeFi.
So we're not taking a directional bet for us, but there are some vaults
which are taking some directional bets, which are used as collateral.
And yeah, so for sure, there is some form of degeneracy there.
Sure. The main problem with those big markets, I mean these markets are huge right and
even the ones that are more institutional these days like Polymarket or Calchi,
days like Polymarket or Calci, both of these two combined, it's tens of billions in dollars
in volume in 2025. But one of the main issues that I'm seeing with them is still the centralization
behind it, where if you were to have a bet saying, I don't know, did Trump say X, Y, Z on a podcast?
Or did this sports team get above this certain stat?
If it's anything ambiguous or anything, especially on the political side, somebody needs to go in and approve that, that that specific thing did happen.
And if there is any, I'd say, contention that maybe something didn't happen, now you have a whole bunch of people that are betting tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes millions of dollars on this,
that will be, for lack of better terms,
shit out of luck, SOL, because their bet isn't,
it's not being approved or it should have been approved.
So you do have that centralization aspect in there
that I don't know how the best way to get around that
when you tie it to real world events.
Does anybody have any comments on that?
I mean, it could just be like an AI
that doesn't have any sort of bias eventually.
I mean, I've already seen people actually make ai agents that watch the news and
then bet in real time based on like the markets that you just talked about um so things like if
trump says a certain thing they're literally watching the like an interview with Trump and if he says that they'll just bet on it immediately yeah I mean
I think AI will be the best
way to go about that because
you can have them
without bias or without
and they can obviously finalize the markets
faster
and eventually And eventually
I am always saying this
But eventually
They'll be just way better than humans at it
I mean there's always going to be an edge case though
Like even I think recently
I think it was Morocco
It could potentially be Cameroon in the AFCON final.
That was in January.
But yesterday, I think UEFA came back and actually voided the win
and gave Morocco a 3-0 win after they lost the game on the day uh because during
the game like the whole team walked off for 17 minutes that actually counts as a forfeit but
they didn't count it as a forfeit at the time it got sort of re-looked and then uh like sky bet
paid out everyone at bet on both sides um yesterday and that game finished in January.
So you're always going to get something like that. That just isn't, it probably needs some sort of intervention.
Did Renat drop to listener?
Did I have a question specifically for him?
You know what?
I don't see him at all.
Oh, I see him as listener.
Here, I just sent him an invite to speak.
Well, yeah, I think to touch on what Rock said earlier,
like, is this DeFi, is that DeFi?
I mean, I think you can, like,
I don't think necessarily Bitcoin is DeFi in itself
because it's more just peer-to-peer permissionless
payments effectively. But you can do DeFi with Bitcoin. I think that is the case with
everything. Predictions, markets, random assets, and anything you can think of.
random assets, and anything you can think of.
So we, I forgot where I was going with that.
But yeah, I mean, especially on the predictions markets,
like looping strategies, taking collateral out
through Gondor, Morpho, or different places
is definitely massively degenerate.
But people will always find a way
to do stuff like that. I really
like the way that Gondor
let you take
collateral out on the
current polymarket positions that you've
got. If you've got a really long-term position
that's doing well, you want
to maybe access some of the
we'll call them winnings so far,
instead of waiting months for the market to finalize,
that is like a really, really good use case for DeFi.
Obviously, the downside to that is then you get into looping
and you can get really high leverage
on what are typically relatively safe-ish predictions.
Can you explain that a little bit more?
This is my first time hearing about that.
So are you saying that if you take out
a prediction market position
that you could then take out collateral
against that position and move that elsewhere?
Yep.
So it's powered by...
Yes.
Okay, that's interesting.
That's a terrible idea, yeah.
So, yeah, it was through Gondor originally.
I think a couple other people were doing it.
I think Noya actually also helps you loop
through predictions markets if...
Not yet, not yet, but hopefully very very soon
we're building
agents that you can tell them
hey loop this market
or borrow against it and then it does this
on your behalf so this is a
work in progress
yeah
so Gondor will let you do that
through Morpho so you can
take the current size of your polymarket position,
take obviously collateral against that.
And then if you wanted to, you could loop that back in,
sort of get yourself leveraged up or just sort of free up capital
if you have a long-term position.
I can try to find that tweet in and pin it.
Yeah, that's really interesting. In prediction markets in general, although the first thing I
said about it was that it's hard for accountability. That was only one specific sector of it and mainly just the political type sector of it.
Let's say in general for prediction markets, for all things that can be verifiable, it's a huge win for the space and a huge win to overall increase that accountability.
base and huge win to overall increase that accountability. So the politics side, probably
not a little bit harder, but for everything else, it does increase the accountability of people
and of outcomes. Because if someone is betting on a certain outcome, so it's something simple,
like will the Fed raise interest rates or something like that? It's probably because there's insiders that are in there that know those answers.
Or what are the exact chances of a company announcing something by a certain time?
Or will this actually go live?
actually go live or something like that.
Something like that.
More likely than not, if there's a prediction market for it
and there's a huge amount of volume for it,
unless there's a crazy event that changes things,
it could be correct.
And people bet on that.
And yeah, I mean, you're able to,
as someone from either inside or outside of a company or just a normal user, you can make money on things that you previously were, if you're always right about something, congratulations.
There you go. go hey guys thank you thank you very much for the ama i'm gonna need to bounce but uh thank you very much very much for hosting and uh talk to you soon guys i. I have to leave. Thanks for coming, Noya.
So I got a question about prediction markets for you guys.
What do you think is more important?
Because there's a lot of people who want prediction markets to start having more regulations, more protections for bettors,
you know, like things like no inside trading or, you know, you shouldn't be able to bet on a market that you are, you know, too close to that has information that the public doesn't have.
So it's not technically insider trading because insider trading pertains, the laws that exist
now only pertain to equities.
And they're kind of specific.
So for inside trading, you would have to be, for example, inside the company. So if you were outside of a
company and you knew something about the company that the public didn't know, I think in that case,
you don't get in trouble for outside or inside, outside. Yeah, maybe they should call that outside
trade. No, you wouldn't get in trouble for inside training. And so that carries over into prediction markets where there's no laws yet that, let's say, you're on a sports team.
And you're going into the Super Bowl.
And you're the quarterback.
And you know that you hurt your ankle training.
But no one else knows.
Or maybe just the coach knows, maybe your athletic trainer knows. If they went and bet
that you're going to lose the Super Bowl, should that be against the law?
So first, why don't I let you guys answer that and then I'll throw a little wrench in
that might make us think a little deeper about the question. I mean, I think the trick is when
you're the president, you just tell your son and then he does it.
Well, yeah, that's the current meta. Yeah. That's definitely the current meta.
No, I shouldn't say that.
That's not, I shouldn't be accusing people,
but I've always thought about that.
Like, you know, when politicians go into an office,
often they have to like,
they have to divulge their investments
or they have to put it into a trust or they have to like, they have to divulge their investments or they have
to put it into a trust or they have to put it into like things like, uh, just, you know,
S and P 500 that they don't, there's no like specifics pieces that they can tweak or mess
with or get an advantage.
Um, and I've always thought, you know, if, if you put, if you put all your companies
under control of your sons or under a trust,
can you imagine stepping away from all of your investments for four years and just not even
being allowed to talk to the people about it? And I've always just thought they'd probably just go
to the beach and go out in the water and the only place safe, go out into the water and,
okay, what's going on with my investments, kid? All right. Here's what you need to do,
you know? Cause anywhere else you are in the world is like, there's just hundreds of devices
everywhere. And, uh, anyways, I've always, I always just wonder these politicians,
they're definitely doing some crooked stuff.
So what do you guys think?
Should there be rules around insider trading?
Should we be banning anyone who has information, special information, from making bets?
Like costume bets?
Do they?
Yeah.
Are they a prediction market?
Yes.
Okay.
How do they enforce that?
So they're requiring KYC.
I see.
And then they'll just investigate you if they think you have insider information.
That seems like, like for an individual platform, like even for government, that would be a hard thing to do.
But for an individual platform to have to take on that burden sounds a little intense.
Yeah, I mean, I think that they have probably killed their business model in a lot of ways for doing that.
Like, handed a lot of business to platforms that allow people to, you know, to just, like, to go ahead and make those bets with their information.
But, you know.
Anybody else have an opinion?
Should we, okay, I'll just throw in my wrench now.
So the way I think about prediction markets is
I don't look at them,
the value in prediction markets is not gambling
and like getting on there and trying to make some money.
I think the value in prediction markets
lies in creating ultimate truth-telling machines.
And so that's what I think they are.
That's what they should be.
And I think if you have too many rules,
the truth-telling machine starts to break.
It starts to get less efficient.
So you actually want people to use any form of
information they have because it shifts the market and it gets us, you know, access to
predicting things. These things can be used in so many ways to predict, you know, weather events,
wars, political outcomes,
and all kinds of important decisions in the world.
And when you start combining that with AI in the future,
I mean, we're just going to have a very efficient world,
efficient markets.
And I think we shouldn't hamper that.
We should stay away from regulating these too much,
at least until we understand the implications of these.
Because I think there's going to be a lot of things that will come out of prediction markets in the future that we haven't predicted yet.
Pun.
What do you guys think? Well, I think that that specific angle is a very prediction market purist standpoint,
where that would be arguing that the entire point is for,
that entire idea is a feature and not a bug in prediction markets,
where the point is for people with better info to be more accurate.
And therefore, if somebody is more accurate,
that they will then change the prediction market so that you go and you look at it.
And chances are, whatever the prediction market says is what's going to happen.
I mean, at that point, you can pretty much know something.
Not guaranteed, but you can know something's going to happen before it happens.
On the sports side... Wait, wait, wait, wait, pause. That statement you just made is pretty cool.
So if you think about it, that actually sounds even cooler than what I said, the ultimate truth
telling machine. You're saying the ultimate future telling machine. We this, we can now,
we're in a world of where technology,
imagine if it develops further and further and AI gets involved.
Could prediction markets be like these,
like literally we could read the future
because they're going to get more and more complicated.
They're going to get more and more efficient.
They're going to get more layers of complexity. And as all of this happens, eventually, will you be able to go to the prediction market?
You won't even need individual markets. Imagine if you could just go to the prediction market
and just ask a question in real time and a bunch of AI are feeding in their bet on it in real time.
If it's super efficient and cheap as it gets better and better and more layers of complexity that you could
just ask a question and it predicts the future for you in real time,
like a Google search or something.
My brain's going haywire right now.
That'd be insane.
I would definitely use it to help create my March madness bracket so I don't
get knocked out in the first round.
Well,
there might not even be March madness anymore because it'll just be too easy.
Like you'll just, it'll be like,
these things will predict with like certainty.
I mean, and by the way, as you add layers of complexity,
I would make the argument that you could actually predict
everything that could happen in the world
with like potentially theoretically a hundred percent certainty.
I don't think we'll ever get there, but we'll, we'll approach that, right?
Look at weather predicting, you know, the hardware and software, it just keeps getting
better, right?
And eventually we'll be able to predict weather events, you know, a year out, years out.
The reason that I'm saying that i think you could potentially um
get to 100 certainty of all outcomes of all events this is like super just theoretical not
not actually practical in the short term but we'll approach this we'll approach 100 accuracy over
the next you know 20 or thousands of years or whatever is because if you if you knew for example the
like every atom in the world like there's an argument that we don't really have free will
that everything i think is it called determinism um maybe but i believe so yeah is that basically
everything is predetermined by the structure of like the atoms the spin on the atoms and
they're just there's it's not a chance thing this is not an rng you know random number generator
thing this is just everything is just that the atoms are colliding in the way that they would
because they're governed by physics and so if you the more you know about systems the smaller you
get to the you know atomic or subatomic level, the more you can predict things.
I know I'm getting into woo-woo here, but I mean, so prediction markets are way high level right now,
but they're going to get more and more data, more and more info, more and more.
And you'll be able to predict things with larger events with more and more certainty over time.
I think there was
a Tom Cruise movie about this.
Oh, yeah.
Minority Report.
Think about it as well.
Exactly, yeah.
I've seen a tweet
about, I mean, because AI
will eventually have probably access to
the cameras, maybe satellites
it'll be able to know if like
the polymarket for will there be a nuclear
detonation, they can just scan North
Korea, check what they're usually up to and then
vote that way
there
like there was a guy that posted
that he lives
I think it's Whiteman Air Force Base where they keep the B2s and he said there was a guy that posted like that he lives you know i think it's whiteman air force
base where they keep the b2s and he said there was a lot of activity like a couple of days before
they uh attacked iran and it's like he sort of knows something say that again where was their
activities he lives near the air force base where the united states keeps the b2 bombers whoa and then he said a couple days
before the uh like the actual that happened uh like there was a lot of activity had them flying
over his house like and it's like okay wow this guy somewhat knows like something's going on like
two days before it actually happened so yeah so now imagine if that guy either had
a neural link in his brain that could upload like that he allowed he you know opted in
or maybe not but let's hope he opted in to the prediction markets and all his data was being fed
in or his his his neural link data was from his brain was being fed into an AI,
and that AI was now betting on the prediction markets with this
because it wouldn't just be one AI.
It would be potentially thousands or billions of people
with the Neuralink or similar,
and they would all be talking together going,
oh, look, he saw some action happening over here.
This guy saw something
happening over on this side. They triangulate. Oh yeah. Okay. There's an attack about to happen
in Iran. We're going to make some bets on it. We're going to create the market and then we're
going to bet on the market. And then even if it wasn't a Neuralink, maybe it's a bunch of optimist
robots, you know, or your freaking, your fridge cam or all your device cameras or the drones, the thousands of millions of drones flying around
delivering Amazon and Uber Eats packages
that are also ingesting all kinds of data
and feeding that into predictions.
I mean, do you see what I'm saying?
Where the complexity of these things in our world
is just going to get just crazy over the next tens of years.
I would, you know, we normally would be saying over the next hundreds of years, you know, we'll get Star Trek, but now we're
saying, you know, over the next tens of years, the, you know, it's funny. Who was it that said,
um, that we had like not had a lot of technological movement, uh, for a while and then used the phrase, was it Andreessen Horowitz who said,
you know, in some period of time, we got like, you know, the like nuclear bomb or I don't know,
he named some technologies and then said like in our, now in this current era, we got 142 characters
and he was just talking about Twitter. But now i feel like all of a sudden we're going
into this for some reason massive technology jump and not just from ai but crypto ai
um drones the internet is just seems to be hitting like
it's major inflection point now because all these other pieces are coming online
that play together crypto also is you know a big part of this it seems throughout human history
that the massive innovation comes and step functions yeah so the first real innovation is fire. Sure. And not to go through a full history lesson, because I don't know every single major innovation here.
But, I mean, you have farming, which is another thousands of years afterwards.
Agriculture.
The domestication of animals.
Sure.
Okay.
Fast forward a lot more forward in time.
Printing press. Now flight, the internet.
It seems like the intervals of these step functions are increasing.
So the frequency is increasing.
To daily?
It's happening almost daily at this point.
The internet back in the late, mid-1900s,
and really computers, and now AI,
as of what was the first chat GPT model released to the public?
Less than five years ago?
Was it five years ago or so now?
Sure, they had models before that, but it's come a long way in five years.
And the next major hurdle now, like stuff that I'm seeing is people are integrating
AI with what you're saying, Rock, is all of this information from all around the world,
either taking flight data.
There's someone who posted something on X, and there's a few people doing this,
where it's essentially like a Google Earth,
and they track all of the commercial flights in real time throughout the planet.
But not only that, they're also tracking shipping.
They're tracking, they're tapping into cameras
for traffic lights.
And you can now bet and watch traffic
through these APIs if you can get into an API
that does a traffic camera.
Like you can basically be,
as a normal person that's on the internet right now, you can
use these tools and see what's going on in the world in almost real time. Has anyone else seen
something like this? No, I haven't seen that. Yeah, it's crazy. But it's kind of like it parlays into what you're saying
is that
the technological advancement
of people,
it's rapidly increasing.
And I'd say that right now
is one of the tips of the sphere
when it comes to
prediction and surveillance.
Yeah,
it sucks, but I, I think surveillance,
unless something changes, um, surveillance seems like it's just going to get way, way worse over
time. I mean, but you know, I think we don't, we can't always see the future very well.
We need the prediction markets for that.
So like with privacy, for example, it seems like it's getting worse and worse on our phones and all these things.
But then you have, you know, people push back or good companies start, you know, building privacy into their structure
or people start...
A lot of the time it takes bad things to happen
for civilization to push back and then ask for things, right?
So as we get a bunch of invasive privacy things
and you have like right now in the UK,
arresting people,
like trying to see all of their messages
and then arresting them
for saying things the government doesn't like.
I mean, that's just insane
that that's happening right now.
But I suspect you'll get a pushback
because that's going too far.
The government pushed too hard
and now people will push back
and the pendulum will push back and
the pendulum will hopefully swing and we'll start building in more and more cryptography into our
messaging and these things or moving to like more open source ones where they can't inject back
doors. But the surveillance one, I just can't think of a world where it doesn't get worse because you're just going to have drones all over the place delivering food
and delivering Amazon packages.
And there's more.
It's cheaper and cheaper to put cameras on buildings, right?
It used to cost a lot of money to do that.
You could buy like a $20 ring- style camera connected to your
Wi-Fi and just like glue it to
with some like
foam or whatever to the side of your building and you're
good to go
you put a little solar panel on a camera
and it'll just run
forever
so it does seem like surveillance
is only going to get worse and worse
I think what will probably happen is, say, a balkanization, if that's even allowed to happen,
where certain towns or you might even get splinter groups that say,
splinter groups that say, hey, well, this certain area
in this state is, we're going to
ban this sort of technology. So if you live in this
town, you're not allowed to have these X amount of
like, you can't have ring cameras, you can't have this, you can't have that in the name of privacy.
Now, that's kind of a shot in the dark, just brainstorming
here, but that could be something that we a shot in the dark just brainstorming here but that could be something
that we might see in the next if it gets bad enough maybe maybe i i would think just brainstorming
with you here i would think maybe it would happen more at the like the software level
where you still have the cameras but they start start having, you know, their access limited or
the data not shared, you know, you build in, you know, like some kind of cryptography or
something into these that protects what's being streamed, which I think is possible.
streamed, which I think is possible.
Like, I think Apple showed that big companies are willing to stand on the side of privacy
when the government was trying to get Apple to turn over records.
And Apple said, we don't do that.
And they fought pretty hard on that.
And they fought pretty hard on that.
And I think they won.
So is it possible that, you know,
all ring cameras in the future, you know,
have no backdoor and are safe to use
and only you can see what's on them?
I'm not saying it will happen,
but it could happen certainly as we have technologies.
And the main thing with privacy
is that people have to demand it.
If the consumer demanded it, we would have tons of privacy. But with privacy is that people have to demand it if the consumer demanded it we would have tons of privacy but the thing is most people don't demand
it until they actually really need it and by then it's too late and then they're like oh shit we
really should have cared about privacy right it's like when the government does some crazy thing or
violates your rights then you're like oh shit privacy really matters and then you go tell all
these people and they're like ah you know i'm, I'm not doing nothing wrong. It's, I don't care that much.
And they go, oh, whoa, that's interesting. But then they don't ever do anything about it.
That's where we stand with privacy. It's like, everybody's like, yeah, I know it matters, but
I'd rather use my Facebook and Google. You know, they're pretty cool. i that's me in a lot of ways you know the convenience of
all these platforms and all i have to do is give up some of my data and i get like free amazing
platforms gmail and google sheets i use google sheets all fucking day long you know i love it
but all everything i put in there i mean google, Google knows everything I eat. It knows all my
blood work. It knows like everything, every memory I have with Cindy, because I have a document where
we write down our special memories and journal what we do on trips and stuff. So it knows
everything about me, right? But it is sure convenient to have those Google sheets.
On an individual level, yeah.
I share just about everything with bouncing around
to the different AIs that I use.
Started with ChatGPT, and then that kind of sucked.
So then I went to Gemini,
and now I just recently discovered Claude,
which is now the best thing since sliced bread.
But on a company level,
what a lot of these companies, including large companies or
even small companies, startups like that of VIA Labs, is having privacy is important to
not release your company secrets. So if there's an infrastructure company, and I'm not talking in blockchain, like pure infrastructure, like transmission lines, building substations, maybe they're on a federal building group and they're building out a gas fire power plant somewhere for military use cases. You wouldn't want that to be accessible to the public.
And to tie it back into blockchain,
some blockchains are now starting to solve this
through ZK proofs or through SNARKs and other means.
One of the blockchains or just one of the individuals
who's really trying to push this is Charles Hoskinson.
So he's doing a great job with the blockchain called Midnight that's going to be releasing here soon.
And what his his main, I'd say, shtick about it is he calls it rational privacy, where they're they're trying to build Mid in a way where you can disclose data if you want to.
So all the data can be private and then you selectively disclose it to certain people,
whether it's a medical provider.
The tax man. The tax man.
The tax man, sure.
The government if they subpoena you or something.
But my question, so yeah,
I think some version of this
is going to be what most things collapse into.
Now, what version of that will matter a lot?
Because the biggest thing that
matters is who can selectively disclose if it is only the user then that's pretty cool um if it
but if it is like the validators the chain itself or the government just has a back door um that we
just have to trust that they would only use when they, you know, when it's something really important like terrorism or a subpoena, which we all know that they, that, that is a total bullshit, you know, line when the government tells you that, you know, see the Patriot Act, which was meant to like, just stop terrorists. And then, you know, Congress admitted
later that it was completely being used to spy on American citizens that were not doing anything
with terrorism. Like they knew for sure they weren't, it was like, you know, money laundering
or drugs or tax evasion or something. Right. But they, they said it would be only for terrorism
that we would only spy on you guys if you were, if, if, if someone was a suspected terrorist. So anyways, um, yeah, if it's,
so do you know,
is midnight only the user can expose the data or could the validators or
someone else?
That's a really good question. I believe it's only the user. Um,
I would need to talk to my developers about it. Um,
it's one of the blockchains
that we're integrating with.
So she's right there,
but it should be on the user side of things.
And is it privacy by default
or is it selective privacy?
Because that's another question
is selective privacy,
from my understanding
and maybe others know better,
but I think selective
privacy leaves a bunch of vulnerabilities, you know, like, especially if not enough people are
using it in some systems, depends on the system, but in some systems, you know, you really only
have privacy if like, whatever, some X, some N number is like, you know, 70% of people are using the privacy feature, then those people are relatively safe.
But if only 10 or 20% are using the privacy feature, then all the people who aren't expose the people who are.
So there's that.
The way that it works is that it's divided into two separate camps.
And so one of those, you can decide to be fully public if you want to be, or you can
decide to run on a privacy layer.
And what they call it is shielded versus unshielded tokens, just for normal tokens, where shielded
tokens, it's completely locked down privacy transactions.
Then unshielded is normal how you'd see it on Ethereum,
where you can look it up on a block explorer
and see the fact of all of the elements inside that transaction.
So it's divided into you can decide what you want to do,
but you can't make your unshielded token and then decide, hey, yeah, by the way, I want to make this shielded now.
It's just one or the other.
Interesting. Can you jump back and forth?
I don't know. At this point in time? I don't know.
At this point in time, I don't know, but that is a good question.
That's interesting, because if you can't jump back and forth,
it's almost like two chains, but just under one validator set or something.
It's kind of interesting.
I guess maybe you could fix that by kind of unifying the liquidity through like basically an interchain bridge, I guess.
I don't know if that's the right word,
but like a bridge that would bridge.
Like you could have like third parties that would,
you know, you would hand them your private assets
and they would hand you un-private or vice versa,
even if the two things couldn't talk to each other.
Anyways, weird.
I don't know enough about it,
but yeah, I'm glad that people are looking at privacy stuff.
Aztec, you know, our normal co-host of the show,
has been saying for a long time that privacy is going to come
and that not only will the government and institutions allow it,
but they will require it or they'll request it because, you know,
the big institutions are not going to just put all their data on chain unless
they have some level of privacy because then they'll get front run or,
you know, there's, there's a lot of reasons that, you know,
institutions and individuals, everyone like like this is why there's
you know a lot of these um kind of tax shelters exist because the politicians like don't want to
close the loopholes because the politicians are using it too and they're like wait yeah we need
protections too so the same thing with privacy you you know, there's, you know, as much as some people want
to invade our privacy, they also want privacy for themselves. So there's this weird relationship
where, you know, the politicians are like, well, I kind of need privacy. This actually happened,
a perfect example of this is this happened with Signal. Signal had a backdoor that I think the FBI or one of the intelligence agencies of the United States was using.
And they actually came out and said, hey, we had a backdoor, but we're closing it because we need our own agents to feel safe using this.
like our own agents to feel safe using this and they didn't feel safe because they knew there
And they didn't feel safe because they knew there were backdoors.
were back doors. So they like apparently patched and closed all these back doors that, that there
was. I mean, do you even trust them though? Like, oh, we closed, we were spying on you,
we were spying on you, but we're going to close that. Don't worry. You can be safe now.
spying on you but we're gonna close that don't worry you can be safe now um
hey let me bring it back to defy one more time because we're we're at like you know we're coming
up on the two hour we're at one and a half hours we're coming up on two hours i don't know when
we're not we'll have to leave so let me just bring it back one more time with the question
specifically for we're not and then i'll let you you take it however you want. So let me just bring it back one more time with the question specifically for Renat, and then I'll let you take it however you want to. But let me just ask, Renat, specifically
for you, do you have an idea of why people aren't doing liquidity providing token lending at scale?
well there are two different use cases the lending of lp tokens right and the using them
as collateral to borrow right you can have one but not the other you can have in for example in
for example in in in nave for a while usdt was lendable you could lend it you can borrow it
but can you use it escalator to borrow usdc no uh that was for a while no not anymore but
basically for the lp tokens as uh as lend uh lendable, borrowable,
let's set them aside for that use case,
but for using them as collateral,
the biggest bottlenecks is the dynamic nature
of those pools, valuing them,
the underlying risk of that associated
with each component
of the LP position in quick swap, for example,
these are, for example, two tokens, like in a typical, like the Uniswap inspired design, right?
But in balancer, like in some other newer versions
of AMMs, DEXs, there could be like eight, for example, in Balancer, you can use, I think,
in Balancer 3, you can use up to eight different tokens in one pool that have their weights, and they rebalance through the mechanism of basically that keeps the ratio
to the it kind of optimistically goes through the bison cells to hit the
the determined in advance ratio so when all of this dynamism is uh considered right
and on top of that the each of these individual tokens introduce their own risk that they might
be also like breached and it's just creates such a complex uh matrix of risks that one needs to consider.
Oh, and one more thing is that many positions since Uniswap v3 design, LP positions are NFT tokens, right?
to combine this together, it creates a quite complex space of risks that you need to all
like account for and then reason about them and then come up with parameters. So the sheer of that risk matrix makes it hard to use them as collateral.
I mean, that's, I would say, the typical problems that we've seen,
why it's not as large as the potential, right?
These are the bottlenecks.
Yeah, it's interesting,
because whenever you speak to, like, DeFi people,
they're always like, this is a really good use case. But no one seems to have, like,
actually tried to give a good go and then have that.
I would say a lot of attempts were performed when you succeeded,
meaning it exists, right?
There are ways to do that.
It's been proven that it's possible, right?
But to scale it, these are the bottlenecks that, in my opinion,
the reasons why didn't the scale, right?
Why not?
Is it because there is no demand or use case around it?
No, it's because of, it's just a hard problem.
So it's not that easy.
Hey guys, I need to drop,
but thank you so much for having me.
Brock or not, Darren, the rest of the crew.
I appreciate you guys so much, especially on such short notice.
Excellent. Thanks, everyone. Bye.
All right. See you, Viet.
I actually was going to suggest that we wrap it here, but Calci just jumped on right now. But it looks like Via and Renat and Protify are leaving, so we're pretty slim on the panel.
But if Calci wants to explain what Calci is before we drop off real quick. We could do that.
Hey, hello everyone.
This is Prateek from CalciX.
So we are
building next generation
GK-based
club-based decks.
Rock and LDA is helping us a lot.
So thank you, Ross, for having us here.
Yeah, I think, by the way, I'll preface what you're going to say with,
I think this is one of the most powerful pieces of the future of DeFi.
So when we're talking about advanced DeFi,
this is actually the first thing that comes to my mind, what you guys are doing.
And the reason is because you're basically taking something that's already proven in the industry that we know works very well and has lots of revenue and is actually proven to be sustainable, which is DEXs.
And you're doing it in a much more modern and efficient and decentralized way but yeah go ahead
yeah thank you so much rock uh yeah yeah yeah you are right we are trying to fill the gap uh
for the traders uh we are trying to uh bring best of the vote of the world like uh what success give
and what current dex is give so we are trying to fulfill uh what amms are like what what ams don't
have today so we all know that success are known for very very very uh good user interface uh
success are known for very low latencies like uh binance offers five to six ms of latency and amms
offers 5 to 6 MS of latency.
And AMMs offer self-custody and all those things.
But we are trying to bridge the gap between the success indexes.
So we are coming up with a hybrid solution
where we are going to build a CLOB.
We have already built a ZK-based CLOB exchange
where we say that we are going to give 9 ms of latency self-custodial
uh your your uh your and and and most important thing is uh what amm's face is the attacks of mev
mev attacks so your orders are private nobody can see see that see that and everything is uh
zk based so you if you want to check the proofs you can check the proofs as well so every
uh every order every deposit every withdrawal is safe via zk zk proofs
yeah basically making ultimately scalable super fast super cheap
with privacy features uh composable that you could build in you could attach other things and
have integrations like we did on quick swap i mean that we have easily over a thousand uh
integrations uh QuickSwap.
And so, yeah, this is the future.
I mean, there's a bunch of people who've done similar things,
but most of them have centralized elements.
And this is truly decentralized, which is really cool.
Yeah, you are right. Like, so technically, like, it's called we are trying to bring a
burner phone's privacy to trading and keeping your strategy and order
flow shielded from the exposure of public.
Yeah.
And one more thing to add to it, Rog, like we are not just building a DEX,
we are building
an infrastructure layer.
So like we are building a Rails where next thousand exchanges will be launched.
So like we are making it so easy to launch an exchange like any AMMs, any company who
wants to launch their DEX, ZK enabled cloud based DEX, they can come to us.
We have a white table solution.
So even they don't need
an expert technical team, they can
just come to us and they can launch their own exchange.
So technically, we are building an infrastructure layer where
next 1,000 exchanges will be launched.
Yeah, that's a
smart way to go is building the infra
and letting people white label and build on top of you.
And you guys are in touch with a bunch of non-crypto casinos
and big Southeast Asia of networks and stuff.
So I think it's a genius way to get distribution
because it's hard when you're a new project,
even if your technology is really good,
it's hard to get, you know, acquire users
and pull them away from, you know,
the existing things like, you know,
Uniswap and et cetera, Hyperliquid.
So you have to hack and find a way to acquire your first million users
and having distribution where you have a bunch of people selling your product,
but you're just building the technology underneath and you take a cut.
Makes a lot of sense.
It's a proven method yep yep you are you are right rock i mean we have already partnered with more than
20 exchanges who will be like using calci x uh calci x layer or like they are going to launch
their own white label dexes on on day one of our mainnet launch and definitely like this infra
layer is meant to support fast scalable and trust like uh trustless systems we are uh like the that's
building like that's like we are going to enable the markets to operate with the speed that traders
expect and trying to uh trying to give the uh super cool cool UX that centralized exchanges like Binance provide today.
Awesome.
All right.
Well, guys, I do need to run.
Did anyone have anything else they wanted to talk about before we hop off all right i think we can uh we can call it there thanks everyone we got into the weeds so much
thank you rock for having us here thank you so much thank you everyone yeah i wish you came a
little earlier because we could have uh we could have dug a little more you could have participated in all the discussions but all good next time
yeah sure sure yeah cool thank you thank you everyone thank you guys see you guys
see you darren see you nicole see you guys later bye-bye bye-bye.
