We got a Marco in a trap here, too. What's up cosmos Haas what's going on, man? I think the first time we're meeting
Met in person. I'm pretty sure I've seen you at a couple of the events that I was at but like we just crossed didn't cross paths
Yeah, I just don't think we've ever been on a spaces together either
Maybe one, but it was like real quick
I think you might have popped in one time or vice versa like on a random space
But yeah, I do love hopping in on random spaces. That's that's a passion of mine
Especially cosmos ones. I have a tough time hopping on others
Because they're never talking about anything it's important, but I guess like if you're just trying to chill enough fun
I mean, that's cool, too. Yeah, I get on those Bruce and Sethi spaces sometime cuz they're so batty
Yeah, there's get out of a crazy rabbit hole. Yeah
How's it going? How's the how's the dog go?
It's good. We just we just started our walk. It's it's white in Berlin. So
It's all covered in snow. And so he's enjoying it. He's ready. Fettie sent me some pictures. It looks gorgeous. Yeah
It definitely looks a lot better when it's covered in snow than rainy and cloudy
For about are you Marco? I'm Berlin, Germany
Yeah, we got I got some snow where I'm at to do where you up a
Little bit north of Pittsburgh. Oh nice. Mm-hmm. Cool. We got it. Somebody from strange. Love it lives in Pittsburgh. Love that town
Nice. Yeah, it's real chill. It's real affordable
Where I'm at though, like we honestly don't get snow anymore man
Like when I was a lot younger we would get we would get a ton of snow now
Like I don't even even just the snow we just got like I don't even have to bust out the shovel
Usually it if it does snow the next couple of days
It's followed by 40s and or like upper 40s low 50s and just rains. It's
Yeah, so yeah, I know like I agree with Marco
I don't really I'm not a big fan of the snow
But I would take it over just like rain all the time cuz we get a shitload around here
Yeah, just rain so much. We don't know what rain is like out in California. We haven't seen that in a while
You know, but it's good. They have though your shit
That was you know, it actually cleans up the air like I know you guys and Cali like you
I know all over our weather 70s every day every day. It's like, okay. Well, your air sucks
Looks like parts every area. Yeah, I'm down in Orange County
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're big big storm coming through this weekend
Yeah, when we get it we get it other than that. It's just like oh no 70 degrees and warm
Or for me, it's I need the season the seasons are like it makes life so much better. I
Agree, I like to have in the seasons like the fall is the buffs
I don't know how your fall is there but like I live like in the mountains that gets real chill here
Like all the trees are different and perfect. Well, there's no
Yeah for sure I hear you on the seasons I've heard arguments from anybody living in a place with four seasons
Think about how awesome it is. And then they all like go and like live there for a little while and like
It's definitely something you have to like grow up in it's I think it's like adapting to it this harder than if you grow
Up in it because then it's also like Christmas time
It's cold like you get the hot chocolate and that type of stuff and it's like the people with seasons are like not used to warm Christmas
And so it just I think it just matter where you grew up
Although although here man like where I'm at
Yeah, I mean the last few years. I think like this year. I play I was playing basketball outside and a couple years
Yeah, like it's just not how it used to be man. It's yeah
It's just not how I used to be it used to always snow and be cold now like where I'm at
We're lucky to get snow and until like right now
Like this is like I think a couple days ago was like the first time I'd actually like snow snow and it was only a few
Inches like it wasn't much at all. So
Anyway, yeah, just let everybody know we're just kind of giving everybody a minute to kind of trickle in
And then we'll we'll get going here talking about, you know public goods
With our amazing panel of people here
But yeah, if you could give it a like in a at a repost to kind of get it out there
That way we get some people trickling in. Yeah, cuz then we'll do it. I was gonna say it was my apologies
I didn't realize I was supposed to schedule it
So I just honestly scheduled a few hours ago
So probably a lot of people aren't even aware that we're doing this
But I feel like well, I mean, this is a banger list of cosmos public good folks
I'm the only one up here on me and scrap without without a bad kid. So I mean, I'm gonna have to change it over
I mean, you got you got to you're the cosmos hoss like I I've got my med lead
But you know, it's my bad kids worth that. I hear ya. I got um, I someone made me a cool little
Mashup, they used AI and made me like a bad kid with my it's pretty cool. Like I might even use that at some point
All right, cool. Well, maybe maybe we should just go ahead and get started some background on all of this is
You know, I come from the door hack scene and we just you know recently launched a really cool initiative
To quadratically fund and grant out for the projects building public goods
In the that benefit the the atom economic zone cosmos, right?
And we have a lot of cool projects that have applied
And and generally speaking I think public goods is I don't know if people really understand what public goods are
Other than in the context of like the real world where they're managed by like the city and state out there, right?
So as it kind of applies to
Cosmos and blockchain in general
You know, I've invited some incredible people up here
Including Jack from from strange a lot of Barry
From skip Marco and his dog from binary. We have of course Haas to talk about just public goods
No, I was gonna say that's a good way of putting that because I do think you know people don't realize like when you say
That how that correlates in this space that there needs to there, you know
People need to build products and have things that I guess necessarily aren't
Monetarily involved but they still need to do it to make the overall ecosystem
Thrive and be you know the best version of itself
so there has to be people you know, whether that's just like products to make the you end user have a better experience because you
Know I I could say for myself there's a tremendous amount of better experiences over the last couple years compared to when I first entered
I think when I first entered cosmos was rate one like osmosis launch
So, you know, I'm kind of been there on a long enough now
But yeah, it's got so much better because when it when it first happened, I was like, holy shit
It was still better than other ecosystems in my opinion, but still like even now still there's such a huge learning curve to come in
Here so we need people that like on the forefront just making it better for all of us
So that's kind of what public goods are in this space, especially in cosmos
Good. Yeah, I'll also take on that and just for everybody up here
If you just want to like jump in with your opinions
I don't want to have to call on people but but I will if I have to
Opinions on you know public goods in the space in general
Yeah, I think this is like a really honestly hard subject of conversation
What one person defines as a public good or think should be a public good might be someone else's business model
There's kind of this like
weird kind of like institutional memory of public goods that's been built in crypto as a result of like
You know 2019 to 2022 or whatever where basically, you know, you had the EF you had the ICF you had these other
Foundations that had started protocols that managed to earn
Basically billions of dollars just by like sitting on their token
And selling it at the right time and into various other tokens or stables or cash or whatever
And while that was happening
It was really easy for them to also just kind of throw money around, right?
Like you could uniswap was like originally funded as a public good. They were like there was really no notion of
A venture ecosystem people didn't really know how you'd make money off of any of this stuff long term and there wasn't
There wasn't like an alternative
Just an institution like the EF or the ICF funding someone to do some work with no expectation of their time
And that was just like how things got done and there was enough money, you know
To go around in the last couple years to make that happen
But like two huge things have changed, right?
Like one is now there's all this venture money like flying around and so
Teams have if they can like figure out how to attach a business model to something or how to attach a token to something
Then they can like go after that money and that might be more attractive because they can get more of it. It's flashier
Um, but then it obviously comes with strings attached
uh, and then the second major thing that's happened is like
We've gone through like a pretty brutal bear market
We're like a bit coming out the other side of it. I would say now and when that happens
There's also just like way less money to go around
And so you have this like double whammy of now people have an alternative
Finding funding for projects and so they're like incentivized to try to attach business models to things that maybe shouldn't have them
That maybe should be public goods and it's also much harder to get public goods funding
um, and I think this is just
Especially hard in cosmos because there's not like one clear center of what cosmos is
There's no like equivalent to the yeah, the icf tries to be that but I think it's like a totally different thing
Yeah, I think one thing I would just like add on to that is Barry's talking about how
Public goods are something with like no concept of return
Where we're just trying to kind of like pave the market
And make something that just works and people can use it
And I think a great example of that is IBC
You know bridges and the rest of crypto are this for-profit thing
And I think we see the issues with that model in a lot of ways
and the one of the core theses of cosmos has always been that in order for this internet of blockchains to work we need the
Communication protocol to be this standard this interoperability standard and
You know instead of as I see people on twitter constantly say routing everything through adam and charging adam fees on everything and mandating that
what we've done is create an ecosystem that sort of
Agrees to use this common communication protocol in organizes around that
That's very different from the way all the other bridges work and I think many bridges are behind IBC and catching up
In a lot of ways and you know
I think IBC continues to lead but it is at its core of public good and that's fundamentally different from the way the rest of
taking a few things out of like
stuff both jack and barry said like
I like the analogy of like early 2019. It was just like we were just building like
I mean even before that in 2017 era like the ico world was a bit more decentralized than today
It's as though like IBC is really the only like cyberpunk bridge out there because it hasn't raised vc money itself
it's not monetizing the usage in any way and
we kind of see that that like we've kind of left this cyberpunk world of like we're building for a better future and
With venture money, which isn't a bad thing because it's like we all do need to survive
This is like a good way to survive. We can't
for ever just be stuck in the world of
We're gonna build and then like hopefully something will come like
It is what brought crypto to this stage today. We also have to realize like of where we came from
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I mean it's also hard because like
Yeah in the only like system that has worked for funding public goods outside of crypto
Really? I guess maybe there's two like one is
Authoritarian control of like government and the economy where you say, okay
How are we gonna fund public goods? We're basically gonna like build a large military and then we're going to use that to like
basically plunder the citizens that live in our country and
force them to give us whatever resources they have and then we can use that to build bridges and roads and
Build our army bigger and go and conquer other things and it's like they're not really public goods because it's like
The population is not fully free, but that's like one way it's been done, right?
And the other way is like some form of democratic like tax and government
Redistribution, but in that case it's you can't like opt in
To funding or not funding public goods like in the u.s
We have the irs, you know, you have to pay your taxes
There's no two ways about it and you can try to figure out how to get around it. But
Anybody who has ever tried that or knows anybody who has knows they always catch up to you
um, and so we don't really have like cryptos challenging because
What's really nice about crypto is that like these communities are opt-in, right? Like especially in cosmos
It's like you decide what chains you remember you decide
What communities you want to be a part of you vote with your feet the tokens you hold with the governance
Processes that you get involved in all that stuff. And I think that's actually like that's why I love crypto so much
Um, and it's it's why I love cosmos in particular so much
But it's also like specifically the thing that makes public goods funding hard
Right because it's like the opposite of that
System where you're automatically opted in to having to pay for these things and it just gives back right away
So maybe it's a question. I yeah, go ahead check
I think that there's one model that people kind of forget about even in this space
which is linux and a lot of the
Open source public goods that power the web2 world
And you know the two sort of like state models that you mentioned like those are definitely first and foremost in our mind
And I think that if you look deeply at linux and in all of these other ones
What it shows is a very mixed
And it is sort of a third model where a bunch of organizations that are non-governmental
Voluntarily fund public goods for their own reasons
And I think that you know, just even saying that sentence you can see the issues there
voluntarily for their own reasons
And I think the key is like getting a bunch of different organizations aligned around a single particular software implementation
Yeah different crypto implementations in um
I'm blanking. What's that tool lib crypto or it's like a c crypto library. They've got like everything implemented
They use it for all the pki for like web2 stuff
This is the state of play and like none of those models are necessarily easy to put together or easy to execute on
But I think that going back to that ibc example, like why is ibc open source?
Open sourcing ibc and making it a public good
Undercuts all of the other bridging providers and provides a free to use unbiased standard
Is shown to be extremely strong in the market, you know, even
Things like layer zero which have raised hundreds of millions of dollars and are paying for tons of fake volume
Can't post numbers that are as high as what ibc does entirely on organic growth
and that is fundamentally that that strength that
You know the volume that comes from it's unbiased sort of public goods nature
But that's also its greatest strength and you know
This is why what you guys are building at dora and a lot of the efforts that this community and other communities are making around
Standardizing public goods funding and ensuring it's impactful are extremely important
These are things that save untold amounts of money in the long term, you know, we don't have all these bridge hacks
We don't have 20 different teams building bridges between cosmos chains. We don't have the massive amount of wasted vc money in time
For engineers that's required to build and maintain all those other implementations. We have a single implementation
Provides stable trade routes which provides more
More ability to grow economically as a
As an ecosystem and I think that people do want to look at public goods a lot as a cost
Where in reality it helps save cost in the long term and it's this sort of like prisoner's dilemma in a way
Yeah, correct me, you know
If i'm wrong that i'm trying to think of it for anyone listening out there if they're like, man
i'm really confused on what they're talking about more so think of like ibc
as like a decentralized postal service and people
Sadly, the people that are kind of
Doing the postal service really are getting paid but they're like doing it for the betterment of the overall like
Humans or the ecosystem or whatever you call it
The only issue when it comes to something like that playing like devil's advocate
Is it's it's expensive. I don't want to I don't know all the numbers, but it's not it's not free to run the infrastructure
So we're trying to find ways
To at least for those people that are doing this for the betterment of
Cosmos or if you want to call it the humanity or whatever
Where they're not just like paying out of pocket in like forever like perpetuity or whatnot. So
Is that a good way of maybe?
Recapping it for those out there
Yeah, I think that's definitely one way to look at it
I think funny enough relay operators actually have a way easier time getting paid than protocol developers
Which is even further downstream
Yeah, you know the people who are consuming the service are not the ones paying for it and that leads to market dislocations
100 percent and I say we have a bunch of new people in here. We have a lot of new friends as well
Dare you'll yield both mckayle
And tudos day. Yeah, I don't know shout out a dare
We'll shout out some people. I
Make sure to follow the people up here, you know, give me some really good insights
Um, and then trev while I have that topic in mind not to cut you off, but like
All right. Let's just use like osmosis for an example. Some people I see out there
Me personally, I I know that you talk time. So not not that
Osmosis can't handle this or IBC transfers can't handle this
I just know like i'm not gonna get mess around at that particular time just because of whatever i'm one i'm busy
But too i'm just like oh, I don't there's no rush for me
But you know you get people that are complaining like when celestia launches and then like IBC so congested and sometimes there's failed
Transactions and you know, you hear you see a lot of fud like how do we get that better?
Like I don't I don't do a lot of recon on relayers
Like how many relayers are from one chain to the other?
Can there be like in an infinite amount of relayers like say from like celestia to osmosis like how does that technically work?
Yeah, I think that the biggest
Problem with this discussion is that it's a deeply technical answer and a lot of people will sort of like lose
The ability to kind of follow the conversation what I would say is that IBC
Is something that consumes
The application framework, which is the cosmos sdk it consumes tenderment, which is the consensus protocol
It has to do with infrastructure running hundreds of different validators running infrastructure
Differences between the two different chains that are that the assets are moving between
And when you start thinking about the number of different parties and pieces of software in that system
The numbers get really large really quickly
And I think when people see that they're like oh
degraded performance in one
There's a lot of complex reasons for that now the relayers frankly are not the issue the relay software is great between
Relay and hermes like those are two excellent implementations that do a great job
Following the protocol and moving those packets back and forth
Issues running rpc nodes for some chains, you know bara chain just had some issues with that and
You know the cosmos notes themselves are not necessarily meant to serve data for a ton of front ends
They're meant to be able to serve data for smaller applications
And I think that you know what we're seeing bara chain and other folks is they're doing secondary indexes to serve front ends that help
The system be more robust that's one layer of issues
Another layer of issues is something that skip has worked a ton on and i'd love to hear bari chat about this a little bit
And marco has as well mempool prioritization
And a better fee model for cosmos chains that allows
Those high traffic situations to be navigated a little bit better by market participants
ie those who are willing to pay for faster transactions during those time periods can
Another issue is there are performance issues at the lower level of the stack particularly around the p2p network that
manifest during those times of high traffic
And it's a compounding of issues that all of those different layers that people lay on the feet of relayers and blame on them
And that's just not it's not a correct reading of the situation
Oh, let's see in the context of public goods, um, like
What have you is there a solution here and and should people be working on it?
Marco jack yeah, you know, i'm interested to hear what bari and marco say, but I have some very sort of like
You know paying for things like rpc's for individual chains like individual chains
I think paying for really performant versions of their own rpc's
And offering those broadly
Is the public good and you know, that's something that those chains can do sadly most chains choose not to do this
They choose to push this off onto the community
And ask validators to post rpc's and and they don't want to run that because it's a big cost and it's an administrative burden
Um, that's one thing, you know relayer operators directly do have some costs and that is also a public good that could be funded
Um things like the min pool work does have some public goods funding could probably use some more and other
Pathways towards implementation and the same with the p2p issues that we're seeing
Like that's something where there's effectively one team that works on comet bft
And they receive x amount of funding from the icf and no one else really puts money towards it
Folks like bari and marco put put their team's time towards it
But it's often just working with that one team to try to get the issue resolved
more parallel teams working on different approaches to it as another potential way, but
Public goods funding can help at every layer of that stack and it's going to be
A lot of different approaches that we're going to have to figure out from a public goods funding angle
Before we find what works and I think this is another issue with public goods, which is that
Because the public goods that we're building in blockchain are these large complex systems
What's needed to fix them is often complex often expensive and often error prone
ie it's hard to know before digging deeply into an issue exactly which approach is going to work best out in the market
In the long term and you need to fund a few different approaches
And there's a lot of dead money in that funding and people hate that like people hate that
To to quickly start out just want to give a shout out to the relayers like on average
Majority of the chains like the average IVC packet time is under 30 seconds with actually
Quite a high percentile being under 20 seconds. So
For something that doesn't receive like public good funding in most scenarios then
I think that's like a super
Super high achievement. So shout out there, but definitely agree with jack like if we if we look at the stack like
Like we it is quite performance and it could be and you are free to like build a protocol in any way you see fit
but with any piece of software that is
Normal web 2 it would be a new piece of software. But in web 3 it's an archaic piece of software because it was
originally written around
Like at this core level we are kind of burdened with this like tech debt
that is kind of living on and
There are more teams than you might think that who are willing to provide public good funding to help accelerate a lot of these areas
And I think it's becoming more and more prevalent. I think this new generation of
cosmos teams it's becoming more and more prevalent. It's becoming something that
They did talk about more and more with the core teams
I mean, I think Sam from skip and like Barry and mag have also been championing that narrative
Throughout the cosmos and we're definitely starting to see that
Not only at the core layer, but also
People are coming in and treating the chain as a as a business
I know it's not cyberpunk to say that but they're treating it as a business and
They're making sure that everything is ready for the mainstream or ready for mainnet and I think
This this new generation is definitely changing the game
And I think the old generation is also taking notes and also starting to pick up there
But it is definitely exciting to see
Yeah, and I suppose that's a good it's a good time to mention that up in that comments here. That's it's posted
You know where at door hacks we're doing on
We're funding public goods via quadratic funding and voting
For supporting the the hub. Um, so if you're interested go check it out apply your bills and you can see the bills are already there
Um, but yeah, let's just jump back in
Hey, I kind of have like maybe
I don't know if these are like nihilistic takes about public goods
I generate a very simple philosophy about things which is like usually if you're making something useful
People will pay you for it
problem with a lot of public goods is that
At least specifically in cosmos is that it's often not clear who's making them
When it is clear there is this like long historical precedent of people not paying for them
Even though it's clearly extraordinarily useful, too
So to give an example like the cosmos sdk my understanding is that and marco you tell me this this is wrong
Voluntarily go to binary who builds the cosmos sdk and say hey, man
We literally couldn't exist without the things that you guys have done
And the work you're doing to maintain it and we want to make sure that that's true in five years
As is as it is true today because we have a long time horizon here
So we want to make sure you have a sustainable business model. Like let us pay you
I'm assuming that doesn't happen. I I wish it did
Yeah, and like, you know that should happen. So I guess like the thing that we're championing is like
Chains should pay for the things that you're using. I feel similarly about IBC which is like, you know, strange love has built
IBC middleware that now gets used in a ton of different places. We use it really extensively in the skip api
People change should pay for those things. They're improving the experience on those chains and
Um, they have to pay for them, of course, and that's kind of like the problem. It's this like tragedy of the commons thing where
So many people are using them. They're like, well, you know, the hub isn't paying for packet forward middleware
So why should osmosis pay for packet forward middleware or you know
maybe the hub can is sort of indirectly through these various funding bodies and
So maybe we can get osmosis too and then it's like, okay. Well, what about neutron?
Okay, sure. And then it's like there there's so many people out here, but like
What we think is that it just starts with a few people doing it. So what we're trying to do is like
Find teams of people who are starting kind of on the edges and doing this work. There's a couple of people
Uh who for example are going around?
Adding, you know various pieces of IBC middleware to certain chains or upgrading certain chains from one version of the house SDK to another
Who they don't have a company behind them. They're just like solo devs. They're just out there
they're they're doing it because they're trying to learn and what we're doing is we're
Just giving grants to those people we're finding them. We're being like, hey, like if you keep doing this
we're just going to throw you a little bit of money like not a ton because we don't have a ton to spend on this
but just to try to like start to create this precedent that when
Um people contribute public goods. We should financially reward them in some way because we're
If they I think if we force people to pay for these things, I think that they would
Um, but like I don't think we want to live in the world where people are forced to but the people who can afford to pay
For them absolutely should you know, like we've raised some dc money
We can afford to pay for some of this stuff. And so we try to like find opportunities to fund it
Um, that's true of other teams. Maybe it's not true of everyone
So like we kind of have to be creative about how we apply that
I mean in the real world, you know, you're you get taxed right the government taxes you and they maintain
You know public goods, right?
It operates a little differently here and there's a lot of friction and there's not a lot of
There's really just so many problems with how we're doing public goods right now and it's completely underserved, right?
So, you know everything that we've talked about so far like what really is the path forward here? Like how do we you guys see?
Um public goods moving forward in in cosmos and blockchain in general
Ideally, what do you think it should look like?
You know, I think that Barry
Had this idea first, but it's effectively the way the linux foundation does it
We've been talking about this for a while
You know cosmos public goods should be funded by the people who use it like that sounds obvious but
You know the best way to do that is to have a foundation where people buy memberships if they use the different software
So for chains that use the cosmos tk and ibc and tenderment
They would pay a membership fee and in return for that they would get preferential support from the core teams
Uh and the ability to propose features for the roadmap
Would from its members elect a board that would then be responsible for working with the implementation teams
Um that to me seems like the best way to solve the issue that we have here in cosmos
Yeah, I think just to make that like specific kind of what I would advocate for
Um is I think the latest version of the sck
partition like a continuous payment out of your inflationary budget to a
Non-validator to like just some address. Um, I think mark are you telling me if it's wrong? I think it's called payment streams or something like that
What I think should happen is like I think we should
Uh put out a version of the sdk that like has this set up
So it pays a really small percentage of inflation to binary for maintaining
The cloudless sdk to strange love for building out
ibc things to all of the other teams that the icf funds and
We should just try to get chains to adopt that version
Like for any particular chain, it's not going to be a ton of money
But across all of them it's really going to add up
And all we need is like a couple of the like chains that are viewed as thought leaders to opt into that thing
And then we can kind of get everyone to do it
Like I think there will be like this waterfall thing where the first couple will be really hard and then after that
It'll just be like oh if you're like a serious team
You raise you have a lot of money and you raise venture money, you know, like you're
You're you're not like bootstrapping cash strapped whatever from the day
From before you launch your token to the day you do it
Then like you obviously are going to use this version of the cloudless sdk
That solves our like collective funding problem. You're going to give it back a little bit
And you can you know decide okay, you know here are the teams that we want to pay because here's the software that we use
Maybe it's different, you know, this can be up to chains on chain by chain basis
um, so I don't think it's
You know necessarily going to be one size fits all but I think that would go so far and I think it's
Like technically it's totally feasible and I also think socially like it'd be easier
Um than maybe maybe we think
No, I was gonna say I agree with that
Outlook and I do think that I mean the reason why we're like developing this
Um is basically the reason why we developed it is basically for something like this. It's also
We want to avoid the situation of people moving money out of a community pool, but then into a vesting account and then it's kind of like
Governance obscured from the community. What are the payouts and everything like this, but I think like this is
The the first step and then it's like how it's implemented
either a foundation because I do think the the part that always uh,
I always try and like figure out is
I don't know. It's better to do it all together instead of one by one and it's like if there was a way to do it
Through a foundation. It's through an address and then it's like people sit on a committee like what jack was saying doesn't have to be
official or anything like that, but it's always better if we're able to do it as
Towards the ecosystem instead of like oh
It's on every team to make go make proposals and and fight for each of their own proposals because then
we're kind of fragmenting um
a public good funding for protocol development
And it could get weird because then people were like, oh we're funding
Strange love and binary. Why do we have to fund IBC and stuff like that and then it could get
Ugly where it's like protocol teams have to decide which teams they're going for and which teams they aren't and stuff like that
So just something to think through
Yeah, and I think one other thing there is like
It risks this situation where we lose the benefits of the public goods
So back to the bridge analogy, there's like 20 or 30 different evm teams making bridges
There's hacks all the time think about the amount of like loss that is involved in that ecosystem not having
A solid bridging implementation that just works. That's a single one that everyone can
Go around there's not only the cost of like running all of those teams
But there's the cost of the confusion that ensues in developers and the lost opportunities that they have in that ecosystem
from not having solid bridging
if we end up in a situation where we don't
Shepherd these commons. Well, then we'll go right back into this situation where we got multiple implementations things become fragmented. It's bad
and we lose the benefits of the public goods that we wanted in the first place whereas
The communities that can come together
And fund these types of things can can find these areas where public good funding makes an outsized difference
And I think a lot of it is around standards and interoperability. And if you look in
The government and in private industry other examples like linux
Where public goods funding is successful and makes a huge difference and is long lasting
it's around these standards and
That help open up a ton of opportunities for other market participants and lower costs significantly
And I think that the communities that figure that out
Are going to be the ones that are more successful in the long term and it's going to you know
It's a bit of a snowball effect and I think that you know, this is a critical time
And i've been saying this for two years now
I'm sure i've been on a ton of space and i've said this but this is a critical time for cosmos to figure it
You know because if we do better at this we reduce the loss to
competing implementations multiple teams and we increase the benefit of the standards that we already have
Um by pushing them out more broadly and speeding adoption of new versions and things like that
So yeah, I I think it's really important and it's a competitive advantage
Kind of a quick question. Um, it's it's a bit off off the vegan path of what we were just discussing
When when going to the public good funding and let's say you're starting a project
At which point should a public good public good funded project think of spinning it into a business and or should they ever?
Like I was thinking about some teams that have done that and they're like kind of yeah, it's kind of gray area, right?
Well, I mean this was uniswap, you know, like
Uniswap was funded initially with a grant from the e.m. There was like
Nobody knew if it could be a business
Nobody had done anything like it before they were just kind of like oh, this seems pretty cool
um, let's let's try to make this thing happen and
I don't think anybody in ethereum is upset that uniswap is a business
Oh my god, you know, we spent forty thousand forty thousand dollars on this and now they're making money. What the hell like it
You know, I mean I'm gonna sound like a broken record saying this but like it grew the pie, right?
Like uniswap is now the most used application on ethereum and like it's good that they have a self-sustaining business model
With most things like if you can find a way to turn it into a business
And you can align incentives between
Your users and the thing that you're building and you can monetize it directly
Then you're much more likely to survive for five or ten years
You're much more likely to get to a scale where you can have ten thousand or a hundred thousand or a million users then
Ten hundred and that's really what matters is kind of building things for long term. So like
The thing that's tricky is like you don't want these like public goods funds to be just like
Plundered by people who are just trying to build businesses
But the end of the day like
Like everyone's trying to get their bag like everybody every which way is just trying to get their bag
Maybe now maybe in the future
But like we shouldn't be upset or surprised or try to prevent people from doing that and say hey
Like this has to be a non-profit if you're going to take this money and be cool with that like
It's not enforceable and it's not fair
And it's not good for us in the long term, so I kind of think like look if you have a business model
You're going after public goods funding. That's probably the wrong thing for you
You should try to first go after venture funding
But if you can't get venture funding then like maybe you go to the public goods people and you're like look hey, you know
We tried to raise money for this thing. This is how we think we could turn into a business. Nobody believes us
Would you still fund us anyways and like help us get to a point where maybe we can prove them wrong?
You got to look at it and you gotta say well
Maybe i'm not going to get a percentage of this but it's going to be good for the ecosystem in the long term
And we want to do it anymore. So I don't think these things are mutually exclusive and I think it's like
Yeah, I think it's important for us to recognize that
Yeah, I definitely agree I think it's like people shouldn't shy away from it and I think the Uniswap example is
Really like the prime example, of course, it was a different time back then but there's still millions of ideas out there
and I think people should
really see it as like, okay, I want to build something that will better the ecosystem and
really at the end of the day, it's like if you're not having fun doing it then you're doing it to
Only build your bag then it's kind of like on top of like maybe your full-time job and everything
Then it's maybe a bit much, but it's like if you're passionate about something and I think it's a good way to
possibly find product market fit and like
A way to extend your way to find your go-to market and everything like that
and I don't think I mean the door hacks people can speak but
I don't think you guys would be upset if like if you guys publicly funded something
And then a year or two down the road it became successful business
Building the global hacker movement and expanding that you know and building frontier tech
You know funding frontier tech accelerating the growth of frontier tech
Because we believe that you know, we we just we need to you know
We need to build what's next and part of it is doing hackathons part of it is doing grants part of it is investing
And doing spaces like this. Um
So, um, I just want to say thank you everybody for for continuing to listen
Um to all these insights, you know
You know public goods, you know, they're called public goods for a reason. They benefit everybody
Um, oh shoot. It looks like we got some people get rubbed
I'm here. So hear me. I can hear yeah. I'm here. I got you. It looks like we lost Gary though
Uh, let me see if he's in here. Oh, yeah, he is
That's very but uh, I guess I kind of segment it kind of kind of moves into the topic of you know
Long-term sustainability of this stuff, right? You know
How do we do it, you know, we've talked a little bit about it, but but it's really really challenging to
You know do something for the public not know if you're going to get paid or get paid very little
Uh, and then, you know, keep it sustainable, right? Uh, including upkeep including updates. So
So you guys with a lot of that as well
You know one thing like i'll bring in another historical analogy, which is like roads or railroads
Initially a lot of roads were built out as toll roads
And then over time the government sort of took all that over and they offer roses public good
And just like think about the amount of surplus that that public good adds
And if you know IVC is another thing like this blockchains are another thing like this
One other way to look at venture funding is that it is kind of public goods funding in a way
That you know, especially these huge blockchain treasuries like look at avalanche
Avalanche the foundation provides a lot of stuff for free
That people can use in order to try to bootstrap an ecosystem
And you know, those are two different ways to do it coming at it from sort of different angles
But this idea that public goods provides surplus
for a broader community that helps them
Take care of that need in an entirety
And move on to other problems like you can see how much economic activity that unleashes. So
The communities that are most effective at providing and funding public goods
Over a longer time frame are likely to be successful. However
They're open to competition from folks who are more profit motivated and like that
Over time kind of plays out and determines that the markets that we end up existing in
So so what's really the the incentive to build a public good then if you know, let's say you're let's say you're building the next, you know
Protocol something like idc but but different right and you know what you want to do
And you got to talk about it with you know
A grant committee or a foundation and you have to pitch the idea that we're building this thing
It takes a you know, six twelve months eighteen months, whatever to build this thing out
And now everybody knows about what you're doing. You got to go to an on-chain boat or something
to to to to talk about it and then get funding from like a community pool like
You know now other people are working on it as well, right?
So, you know building public goods, you know, like how do you like what's the right way to go about doing it? I suppose
Yeah, sure. I was gonna say i'm just using myself for an example and i'm sure there's others out there
There's a lot of awesome people that just like give like their life. They sacrifice their life for cosmos
on like just the media side slash just
content education, whatever whatever, you know, they're they're doing
You know people like oh, you know
You should you know ask for this or ask for that and i'm just like the type of person that really doesn't like to ask
And um, i'm sure there's others out there like I want to build something and it's like, you know
You just build it. But yeah, it's not really sustainable
My thing and you know the cosmos as a whole is for the most part
I don't know how many hours I put in a week, but it's mainly just cosmos stuff
And um, you know you get to a point
It's like is this just a really fun hobby or is this sustainable, you know
Like more more so on like the content slash hanging out doing spaces and all this other stuff or is it like
Not that I want to turn it into like a business
But just to be sustainable because I would much rather be doing this the rest of my life
And adding value as I can and helping out cosmos as a whole forever
Or it's like do I have to still have this nine to five job that I absolutely just not want to do the rest of my life
So it's it's it is like a catch 22 and i'm sure there's people out there that are like, you know
Some coders or wherever they're like cosmos is lacking this let me build it
But it's going to take me six months and it's like well
You know for six months now, I need I need some money to pay my bills or like what am I doing?
And you know, it's it's probably troubling
As a whole, you know, luckily for me due to like my experience and my age and my financial
Wherewithal that I was able to kind of just like treat this as a hobby
I'm, just like a growth hack for for two years
Even though it wasn't intended. I was just having a really good time and I was like cosmos is the shit
And then I just wanted to give back, right?
But I still have a job and I don't want to have that job because I want to
I want to get better at everything that i'm doing in a space whether it's on spaces or content or
Going and helping at different crypto events to help out teams and cosmos and things like that
But it's just like it is it's it's challenging man
Like because you don't want to come off as like you're turning some sort of public good
And you you can only you only want to do it for money, right?
It's like i've hosted so many spaces for free and um, it's so cool when a team's like hey
What's your address and they just like drop me money?
I I always felt intimidated to be like i'm only going to do it, you know, I never will be like that
I'm just not that's not my style now. Am I going to turn money down?
No, because I I need that
Like I said, my goal is to like build out a team and just be better at what i'm doing
But obviously that stuff costs money and stuff. So it it's I totally get like the whole public goods
And how it is very challenging so to speak
Yeah, you know, there's not like really an answer here. I think that it is a lot of
You know give and take your point around sustainability. I think is really important
Companies and projects that end up relying too much on fallen tourism
End up failing because there's no economic activity to sustain the volunteers
And you can see a host of different open source projects where this has happened
I think one that i've been thinking about a little bit recently that's not
Falling into this repair, but it's kind of stagnated for a long period of time is is urban
It's a really great community. They've built a lot of really cool things, but it's been built on volunteerism
And they basically don't really pay the people who work on the protocol
Um, they've been able to get a tremendous amount done, but in order to take the next step
They're going to have to be more conscious around what gets funding and how that funding gets spent
That like this is the sort of key thing for communities like if you lean too far too quickly into
You don't end up building the install base or the community that you need
But if you don't lean into monetization at all, you never get to the point where you can monetize
It's a bit of a push and pull and it's something that every project and every individual needs to kind of decide for themselves
That was well said by the way
Not that your other points might haven't been well said but that was really good. I totally agree 100 percent
I do. I do think like you guys both hit on a lot of good points like
It is very much like a passion project like it is
if you're trying to build your bag that like
Like there are people like applying for public good funding that just want to build their bag and it's like they may get funding but then it's like
It's very far and few between that like are able to accomplish that
I think a lot more people are here because they're like passionate because they're having fun
And I mean that's why like me
I like stayed in this stayed in cosmos
I had the opportunity to go to many other ecosystems, but cosmos was always like home for me
And it was always just like the opportunity to be able to like work on it and never wanted to give it up
And I think it's like we're all there, but it is it is taxing like uh
I mean like berry and the skit team are like fairly new to cosmos, but they're like fairly experienced as though they've been here
Since ever and it's like I just get messages like oh like berry and magra like sunday evening
Like just on a call with someone trying to help debug their chain stuff like that
And that's not like oh, they may not be getting paid for that. They're just doing that because they enjoy it
Or they just have like sock foam syndrome for the war room
But yeah, it is it is very much like a passion project like
And so it's like if I think at the end of it
It's like if you're if it's what makes you happy then you should go for it
And I think if it's if it's if you're struggling at it
And it's like maybe it was happy at the beginning and it was
Any kind of lose that passion midway here because you realize how much it is like
Like everyone's are here to like talk to you and like figure out how to like make it work because it's like
You do have passion and I think
It is taxing like it is a lot of work
It is like you are applying for grants from governments
Every couple of months to be able to survive and the governments are like these chains
Yeah, oh berry, you got something
I guess you know what marco says makes me think of another thing which is that
You know these public goods provide this fantastic surplus and I think almost in every case that we've talked about today
There's ways that you can as an entrepreneur who has built out those public goods have a unique view into how that surplus
And the new markets that it creates for example with roads
When cars came around there was a lot of people who created shops to go sell to those cars
App chain land, for example, like marco works closely with the
big problem with app chains is
And serving that in a performant way. So marco has worked on a company where they help solve that problem for users
And his unique insight in building out the public goods helps him provide the best product out there on the market
It's the same thing with skip and it's the same thing with strange love
Um, so yeah, just one last comment there
Thanks for that check, uh, you know
In regards to specifically cosmonauts like you know outside of the people in this room
Um, there's a lot of people working on on public goods right now. Um, are there any other
Promising public goods projects based projects that that you see getting worked on out there
Uh, or anything that you're really really excited about
Yeah, that's the question
And in cosmos for the wider wider blockchain space
But in regards to public goods a lot of these, you know things like open source tooling and and things like ipc can benefit everybody in concept
But if you know anything in cosmos that that'd be cool, too
I feel like i'm two two heads down right now
Rewriting a bunch of code. I need I need to go up and breathe. I think the
I mean, I think there is so much
Once we start once you stop being able to track it, you know that it's working and I think right now
From what I know at least you guys are kind of like the first
Uh funding program that is like poised poised themselves as public good funding
Um and like going hard at it. I think in the past there's maybe been a few teams
I think that accelerator dal is something similar but in a different, uh aspect and so
Uh, so I think it's like you guys are really getting the ball rolling and getting the conversation started in cosmos
That may have not had may have not happened in the past
And so I mean I would pose the question back to you ask the question back to you
Like is there anything that you've seen comes through so far that you're excited about maybe can't share maybe it's too early
Yeah, I mean I i'll speak i'll speak uh
I mean I kind of I see kind of door hacks as a public good
You know, we kind of we kind of work in the middle and and our whole thing is
Uh, you know supporting all of the incredible
Uh chains developers and communities out there
Um, but but realistically, um, anything anybody that's working on stuff like open source tooling
Uh, like like abstract is pretty neat. So I see abstract down there
Modular smart contract frameworks, um, there's a lot of other projects that are building
I'm not going to say companies but built but building applications or frameworks or anything kind of in that realm that will benefit
Everybody regardless of if they're a business or not
I kind of see public goods as like a rising tide lifts all ships IBC helps everybody
It's a project that helps everybody and brings everybody up
You know for me, that's a public good even if they're making money somewhere. So
Um, I have a looser definition of public goods, I suppose
Yeah, I um, I guess just to revisit the
I think outside of crypto there's a lot of
Funding but at least development that takes place like in the broader open source software community
Um, there's a bunch of like linux is a great example that that jack pointed out before
But there's a bunch of other ones as well that have like pretty huge organic communities now
Um, it's actually kind of like crazy, especially
When you go deep into these things like I spent a long time
In the nyx community, which is this like super obscure uh package manager based around functional programming and like
There are people who their like whole lives are just dedicated to that package manager. Um, and making it better and improving it and
In these in these like non-crypto
One there's like one model that has really really worked which is
Build some open source project to solve its own problem
Like google with kubernetes or facebook with react. These are like the famous ones
What happens is like they build it. It improves their own dev staff. They open source it and
Other people look at it and over the next few years it gets a ton of usage and for the first like
Uh few years it's basically entirely maintained by
A team inside of these huge companies that they're not doing it for public goods reasons. They're doing it because
They're thinking on like super long 10 20 year time horizons where they're thinking. Okay, you know
If we build this software system and over time we like build a real community around it
It'll decrease the cost of ownership of it for us
And it'll make our own software that much better and that much more efficient to run and build
That's why they open source it and that's why like in the first few years where they're basically funding the development and learning the development
It's kind of like a loss leader for them
Projects that don't have that really really struggle. There's very few of them
Linux would be about the only prominent example there
Linux is the only prominent example and then nix is the only other one that I know of and
It's struggling in a bunch of different ways and it's been around for 20 years and like, you know, it has it has a dedicated community
But like only say like a hundred thousand users crypto has kind of gotten around this because we have tokens
Which is great like tokens create this like new additional funding mechanism
Apart from just let's let's have giant corp pay for it for the first few years
but I think I think like part of that too is
Teams that really succeed in crypto tokens that really succeed projects that start to have scale
Really do also need to think about like, you know, long time horizons and building things that are public goods
Because it benefits them on those long time horizons not because they're selfless in any way
It's just actually aligned with their incentives and because it's a marketing expense for them
It's like it is such a good recruiting tactic for facebook that they built react and everybody knows react now
And and like of the front end developers
I know they love it too and they're so impressed that facebook has built it and like
when your company or your project or your token or ecosystem succeeds at that scale and like
That that is a great way to like hire really great engineers at scale is to build go to open source software
I mean like barry mark will tell you the same thing hiring folks to work on cosmos open source is great
Yeah, all the code that you write is completely free and open and uh, come check it out
Come help a lot of people out people love doing that. It's great
No, man cosmos allows, you know all of us whether you're like, you know, whatever sort of
Niche that you're in in cosmos to be a part of this amazing thing, right?
Like it's it's pretty cool to think about it and you can put you get some money your place
Um, I mean i'm a prime example of it. I
It was at the center in 22. It was like
It was actually kind of right after the the usd crash. I think no, that was actually yeah a month after anyways
I was up on stage talking. I was a moderator and I just was like
This is crazy that i'm doing any of this right now
But it's it's a true testament of cosmos like I think you can actually be a part of it and um
You know, the only problems it has to be honest with you is good problems to have
it's just the best ecosystem out there when it comes to
Interoperability and truly becoming a part of something because we said it earlier
But it's just so easy to go and explore and go do things
You know, we do need to work maybe a little bit more on
Marketing, but I think it's it's already getting there and like some of these teams
It's like we had this mantra
If you build it they'll come and you know people didn't see it a few years ago
But it's starting to flourish and um, it's you know, it's there whatever random people
Are basically that never talked about cosmos like just like say influencers people on on youtube
They never said one word about anything Ibc related and now it's like they're all they're all in, you know
I've been getting so many dms from people that have way more followers than me
They're asking me random questions about cosmos and that's all I know. It's like all right
We're on the map now people actually know what we're doing here
And um, you know, it's gonna be nice one day when people can go for their first entry point
They just randomly search something on youtube and instead of it like my experience was all you know
Obviously it was just like bitcoin and ethereum bitcoin and ethereum
Maybe you had some cardano or something at the time like three years ago
Whatever it was now, it's just like randomly adam comes up or osmosis comes up or just like anything, you know
It's I think we're kind of at that stage and it's just exciting man
It's truly exciting and these conversations are great because I think we brought up
A lot of points just um, you know a lot of good topics too
And it's just like there isn't technically no right answer, I guess, but we do need to find some sort of
Middle ground where it is sustainable. So it's just always a question that we pose without being like authoritative
You know like it's some sort of authority or so. So it's going to be interesting
Yeah, a hundred percent and thank you everybody for for definitely tuning in
Um and and and our incredible panelists up here as well
Uh, and again, you know at door hatch, you know, we launched the uh atom echoes atom echoes
atom economic zone quadratic funding
Uh round that's now open for projects to submit
So if you're building public goods that benefit cosmos definitely go and check out the pin post up here
And it looks like we have landslide. I was just about to say if anybody has questions they can request them
We'll you know, we can invite people out
Is this Nathan from where it's like? Hey dude, shout out man. Hey guys, uh, hey man, hey public funding. Um
Jack Jack, you know, I was going to give jack the his flowers from from from public funding on from strange love and IBC
um, and and I think uh skip is doing
Is is basically public goods across the med space?
We used to do a lot of movie stuff we do a lot more ux stuff now believe it or not. Um
From our perspective. It's like, you know, we built skip because we really believed in the app chain thesis
And we were pretty new to crypto at the time
But when we were trying to think about things from first principles, we were like, all right in 10 years
There's basically just going to be app chains and rollups and the rollups are going to be kind of app specific
We wanted to build an infrastructure company to support them
And we got started with me but we you know learned pretty quickly like actually user and token onboarding
It's a huge huge problem and moving tokens throughout cosmos. So we build
the main thing that we build right now is
swap and transfer aggregator that's used in kepler and leap and
Osmosis and all these other front ends that now kind of let you move tokens from different chains or swap tokens between two different chains. That's
Kind of all silently powered by skip in the background
Um, that actually, you know, I know we're running up on time here
Um, and I know we're talking public goods here
We have you know people on here that are building public goods and people in the audience listening that may
You know may be thinking about it or maybe building them as well
Uh, i'm gonna i'm gonna pick on you marco marco. You're you're you're a binary you guys are
You know, why why do what you guys do, you know?
For for me and like everyone on the team
It's like we all just have a passion for building and it's like being working on the cosmos SDK enables us to like really take ideas to
To their full potential and I think it's like that is like the most exciting thing that we can do
Of course, it's like at the same time. It's like we could go build a chain
Um, and we're like build out more products and stuff
But at the same time it's like we are having fun. And I think if we're having fun doing what we're doing
That's that's the most that's the thing that matters and if something changes
Then it's like oh we want to go build go have fun
Like maybe build some products using the cosmos SDK and stuff like that
Then it's going to be like a different world
but it's I think it's like we're just having fun and what we're doing and it's like the people around us from
The skip team to strange love team to IBC to comment like
Everyone's just like super fun to work with and it's not only that it's fun. It's challenging
It's there's new problems arising every day. You discover new pieces of code
um, and you just keep going and I mean i've been doing it for five years now and
uh, I don't know if it's burnout or if it's just like passion, but
Like I wouldn't trade it for anything
Yeah, I I totally agree with marco on that I think you know one thing for me I like to think about north stars
Jack, why are you still here?
I'm still here. Um, you know i'm about to answer that I I like to think about sort of north stars and
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you can you hear me
Can no one hear me? I can hear I can hear you. Okay. Great. Good. Awesome
I like to think about north stars and like the reason why i'm very you and then you go next like
Marco, I think like why do I mean marco marco? Can you?
You might you might be rubbed. Yeah, everybody else can hear jack marco. I don't know if we can pause next
The reason why i'm in crypto is to build a new financial system. That's more inclusive
Centralized parties and more able to serve the needs of this sort of internet native generation that we have now
And that's why I started working in this industry is why I bought bitcoin back in 2013 for the first time
It's why I started working in block stack. It's why I started working in cosmos
With all the money and all the scams and all the marketing it's really easy to forget why we're here
and you know when you see things like
The bitcoin ETF getting approved and all this regulatory progress that we've made it is
A decade plus of people working very hard for very little money
slim hope of future return
In service of this idea of non-governmental money
Removing the ability for the leviathan to to also control our monetary supply and like
That's what that's why i'm here. That's why i've gotten stoked about it
You know, I also love it the same way marco does too. I really enjoy the work
I really enjoy the people I work with I think it's fun and
It's rewarding building software that people use
Marco can you did you hear that?
Okay, so you're back up and you're back up and running. I agree
There we go couldn't have said it better myself jack, you know, I I kind of went to the same bucket
Uh, I think we could all be making a lot more money doing something else
But rather be, you know doing something that I love chasing something that I believe in right?
So I think that's what makes this entire
Industry really compelling and that's why
You know, it's and we can make a lot of money doing it
And we can make a lot of money from jack
As a byproduct, of course
But yeah, I think we're you know, we're we're pushing up here on time a little bit
But we can go ahead and get like final remarks from everybody and then we can kind of kind of tie up the space
No, I think that's the common denominator with everyone that came up to speak that it's such a passion
It's so much fun whether you're coding like I don't code I know basic code
But whether you're coding or you're you're helping as a moderator or whatever your niche is. It's like this space is amazing because
Everyone has some sort of skill sets that can enter into this space and I always just you know
Just promote people to come explore because like I feel like regardless of your geographical region or what your financial
Wherewithal is or whatever it is
Like you can really cement your place in this space and I think um, you know
I don't know if this has ever been done like before where you can actually be a part of something greater than yourself
Right and like that's what we're all doing
And um, yeah to jack's point
I mean if it all goes to where it's supposed to go anyways, like we're probably gonna make a lot of money anyhow. So
Um, yeah, I just have nothing but so much fun in this space
I have so much aberration for people that are just building the tolling out and making this all fit this whole thing
You know like ubiquitous and like it just reminds me of like the early 90s when or even hell like back in like 2000
When everyone was like oh the internet's a scam and it's for weirdos and all this other stuff
And we're kind of just like reliving the same thing like history repeating itself except for
This is just way more powerful and it's given rights to so many people and people tell me their stories and
You know from all over the world and how crypto is basically empowering them to just to be a better person to have rights
To have monetary rights or whatever rights, you know, and like that's what it's all about like to me
Crypto is like the ultimate sign of freedom. That's what I think was intended, you know
And I just like have nothing but respect for people
That are doing what they're doing in this space. So just shout out to everyone really not to be corny or anything. But yeah
I don't think we do a good enough job of patting each other on the back here and like
You know, i'm gonna call out marco and berry buff for this marco on christmas sent me a nice gratitude text
Which I really really appreciated. Thank you marco and berry has done the same to me on other occasions
Go text the folks that make the software that you love and tell them. Thank you
Barry as so sweet. I mean, I don't really know if I can follow up with that. Um, yeah, I mean
I used to work at a hedge fund and like the mission of a hedge fund for anybody who hasn't worked at a hedge fund is
Like it literally doesn't matter how you make money. It's just make money plus also we want returns that are uncorrelated
So like the fund that I worked at did all sorts of stuff like they obviously invested in things
They built wind farms. They built solar plants. They had all sorts of weird
other side shit that they did
um, but when you ask them about it's like, oh wait, are we building wind farms because like
Uh green energy in the world and the guys who were doing it looked at you and they're like, oh no
It's just like the cash flow is uncorrelated with the our other businesses
Realization for me that like no one actually cared about anything except for making money and they were good at it. Um
And I think the thing that's like really exciting about crypto is that
As jack said like there's still a bunch of opportunities to make money
But like we're actually trying to do something new. We're trying to do something different. We're trying to build systems that can be
Decentralized first and functional second so that they remain decentralized
Um, and that's where a lot of the problems in the industry come from but it's also like that commitment to that ideal
That makes it so fun and like attracts so many good people
Um, so that's that's what I love it
I I got a job guys, but this is an absolute yeah
Cosmos hos. Thank you guys very much. I really appreciate it. Let's let mark. I'll get to sleep because I know it's late for that
Yeah, thanks everybody for listening
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Is that what it technically it technically closes on the 19th, um, that may get extended but don't quote me on that
Um as of right now, it's the 19th. Okay, so get it get them in. Yeah for sure
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Appreciate you all. Have a wonderful day. Everybody
Talk to you all. Good night