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Alkanes | The Ordinal Show
Recorded: April 23, 2025 Duration: 2:08:43Space Recording
Short Summary
The Ordinal Show featured Taga, a key figure in the Bitcoin ecosystem, discussing the launch of innovative projects like the OYL wallet and the Alkanes protocol. The conversation highlighted the importance of partnerships, fundraising efforts, and the potential for growth and yield opportunities within the evolving landscape of Bitcoin.
Full Transcription
Thank you. I'm running down the road
Trying to loosen my load
I've got seven women on my mind
The four that won't hold me
Do the war and stone me once
She's a friend of mine
Take it easy
Take it easy
Don't let the sound of your own wheels Take it easy. Take it easy.
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.
Light the love while you still can.
Don't even try to understand.
Just find a place to make your stand, take it easy
I'm standing on a corner in Minnesota, Arizona
Such a fine sight to see
It's a girl, my lord, in a flatbed form
So I'm down to take a look at me
Come on, baby.
Don't say, baby.
I've got to know if your sweet love is going to save me.
We may lose and we may win.
Though we will never be here again.
So open up, I'm climbing in So take it easy Music I'm gonna roll, I'm gonna loosen my load, got a world of trouble on my mind.
Looking for a lover who won't blow my cover, she's so hard to find.
Take it easy, take it easy.
Don't let the sound of your own needles make you crazy.
Let the sound of your own deals make you crazy.
Come on, baby.
Don't say, baby.
I've got to know that your sweet love is going to save me.
All right.
Welcome to the Ordinal Show.
It's going to be Yon and myself co-hosting this evening.
Trevor unfortunately had a conflict, so we may turn this into a nutrition and fitness
show by the end of it, but who knows.
Today we do have a very special guest, so we've got a lot to cover.
This is going to be sort of a, you know, interview focused show.
We're not just going to go around the horn shooting the shit and talking about super DJ and stuff.
I want to have a little bit more of a serious conversation here.
And Taga absolutely deserves it.
He's been just grinding, working on some really, really badass stuff over the past couple of years here.
Obviously, you know, just longtime builder in this ecosystem on Bitcoin.
Taga, I believe this is your first time on the show.
Am I correct?
No, Taga, please.
You came up last week, but you were rugging last week.
So we were hoping it would
be fixed rip all right all right we're gonna work up man i he he rocked right like i i see him as a
listener right now he's we're gonna get him back we're gonna get him back we're gonna the interview
must go on we did have him on the show for monday He was rugging, though. So we will see.
Man, I didn't know that there is somebody in the world that has worse internet than me.
You know, I thought I am the worst.
I am.
Yeah.
OK, what about now?
Yeah, we're in a great.
We're in Georgia.
We're in Georgia with with some of the team here.
And it's like a Cole's family's vacation home.
And so it's the Wi-Fi, if you leave a certain area, it goes out.
So I'm going to sit here.
I'm not going to move.
All right.
Well, Taga, we're super glad to have you here.
I know you briefly came on on Monday, and we decided to just kind of bring you back on Wednesday
and do a full-blown interview here.
So without further ado, man, we're really glad to have you on the Ordnall Show and super
excited for this conversation.
I know there's a bunch of, you know, Alkane's DGens and Alkane's curious people who are
very excited for this conversation.
So let's dig into it.
Are you ready?
Awesome.
Let's do it.
Awesome.
Awesome. Let's do it. Awesome. Awesome. So I wanted to structure this interview as a linear sort of going through the different things you've been
building that led up to Alkanes to hopefully contextualize this for the listeners here. So
to start off, OYL Dynamics, this is a company that you co-founded and have been building on for multiple years
here in the Bitcoin ecosystem, raised money a couple of years ago, and your first product
was the OYL wallet.
Can you talk a little bit about the genesis of this company and that first product, OYL
wallet, which is obviously the prominent wallet for Alkanes now?
Yeah, definitely.
So, I mean, it really kind of goes back, you know, before oil.
So a lot of the team, especially my two co-founders, are folks that I've been building in the space with for, you know, the past five or so years.
Really started my career consulting product management and kind of the fintech and crypto space.
And I joined a DeFi fund in San Francisco called Framework Ventures on the lab side of their business to, as an entrepreneur in residence, to build a regulated DeFi insurance product for institutional investors.
Am I still rugged? Am I still here?
Dude, you're going great.
I think we're soft. Just don't move. Don't go to another room.
Yeah, the phone's on the table.
And the fund at the time had done really well investing in all the different primitives,
early Ethereum, and a lot of their institutional investors were asking, how do we get risk adjusted?
How do we get risk adjusted exposure to these like crazy defi yields that are happening right now?
So I got paired up with the CTO framework at the time, which is, which is Flex, who's both kind both the creator of Alkanes, Protorunes, and a lot of the open source stuff that we have been building over the past two years.
with the co-founders of Bybit to build out BitDAO and their product lab and do some of their early
venture and build out that ecosystem, which eventually kind of turned into Mantle, their
layer two. So built that kind of entire team, did investing through the DAO, investing through the
venture fund, and worked on a bunch of different projects kind of all across the stack. And, you know, with a lot of pain,
convinced them to go down the optimism Eigenlayer route,
which kind of has turned into Mantle,
which is, you know, one of the more successful Ethereum Layer 2s.
Kind of as that was happening, I saw the writing on the wall
and really wanted to focus a lot of the efforts and what we built to kind of solve a lot of the problems in crypto.
Right. There's all these problems around fractionalization, kind of liquidity, how DAOs work and really kind of looked at a lot of different ideas.
My other co-founder, Cole, I hired him from OpenSea to work on the product lab over at Bybit.
So we've worked on many, many projects together.
So kind of over that year between like mid-2021 to early 2022, we kind of were thinking about a lot of things that we should go and build together.
Everywhere from kind of the hardware stack to, you know, integrated browsers for crypto.
And then I saw ordinals happen in January, started seeing it happening in January.
And I got that, you know, feeling that every entrepreneur just like really waits to feel
where you feel an obvious pull where you want to throw your hat over the wall.
And ordinals to me, you know, this is things were being traded in, you know, Google Sheets, and it was still very, very early.
And just had that feeling that this is going to be much larger.
And it represents what I've seen in Ethereum and other ecosystems where it starts with you have issuance of assets and then a culture is built around it.
And that culture creates a need for scale.
And so seeing all the theory that's been around in Bitcoin for many, many years and seeing builders
like the folks at Xverse, the folks from Stacks, even folks from VSV, really start to figure out,
okay, how do we now and go build infrastructure and ecosystem around
this and what it's going to turn into? And so oil started as the vision for oil was, okay,
we have seen all of the different primitives and infrastructure that you need to build a close
source and open economy on something like Ethereum. We should go and build some of that
infrastructure to meet this use case and meet some of the consumer demand.
So that's really kind of how it started.
So we went out and we really pitched the company like this.
And we had a very, very difficult time raising.
And so we kind of had to distill it down to we're building a wallet with good UX, right?
Something that both people on the Bitcoin side and Ethereum side understood.
Because we're telling them there's going to be fungibles.
There's going to be trading. There's going to to be trading there's going to be tokens there's going to be amms there's going to be
they're like what the are you talking about and so we kind of had to really like bring it down to
like okay like it's an emerging ecosystem it needs a wallet with good ux so that was kind of the pitch
but so um the first two products really at simultaneously we're building we're both
sandro which is the infrastructure business
where we have like really great data product, RPC product.
You can interact with, you know, Ornald Runes, BRC20s,
and then MetaShrew.
And MetaShrew is a WASM runtime
that is essentially allows you to build your own index
or own meta protocol.
It's a framework to build meta protocols.
And when we saw BRC20 happen,
it was obvious that this was going to take off.
But even Domo is stating that,
hey, listen, this is an experiment
and it's probably not the best design.
There will be likely better designs.
So I got with Domo and said,
hey, what does BRC20 need to actually grow and become better?
He's like, well, it needs an open source indexer to start.
And so Domo and I started Layer 1 Foundation together.
And the point of that foundation was to support Layer 1 building and meta protocols and programmability on Layer 1.
Now it's kind of like more fully go down the route of mostly BRC20.
But if you go to the website,
it's very clear that it's just about meta protocols itself.
So we went to go build the tools for people building
these new meta protocols or extensions,
or upgrading their meta protocols for
the programmable meta protocol era.
And so we've done tons of research over the past two years.
How do you solve that specific problem?
How do you create infrastructure that's open, composable, that's really easy to make updates,
that can be distributed, that can meet the demand of the world for smart contracts on Bitcoin?
And how things have played out, BRC20 kind of got fractionalized.
Unisat kind of took it.
Unisat was trying to own it.
They built Fractal. They kind of had different ideas of what brc20 should be best in slot one wanted to they wanted to build more of like an evm more ethereum
environment with their programmability module and so you know they really wanted to use their
own infrastructure to go and do that and so we went down to kind of the wallet side and we
And so we went down to kind of the wallet side and we did more kind of open source research.
And so Flex, our CTO, he built Protoruns.
So Protoruns is here's an example of how you can use MetaShrew to build a programmable
runes meta protocol on standard.
And think of this like a framework where you can build interoperable meta protocols that use the Rune standard.
And so it could be a standalone app like an AMM that maybe doesn't connect to another app.
It could be anything else, but you actually can get horizontal scale.
Taga, I think you're rugged.
If you can hear me, maybe drop down, come back.
Rip.
Well, look, I have a ton of questions.
We got into a lot there.
We'll have him back in a second, guys.
Please be patient.
Hold tight with us.
Lots and lots and lots to dig into here.
Yeah, I'm curious, Jan. I think, like, I definitely want to learn more about the just kind of, like, nature of Meta Shrew and their approach versus what BRC 2.0 is doing.
I'm pretty sure there's probably something interesting there.
But, yeah, Tagit, you back?
I'm back.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Please continue.
You're doing great. Like walking us through basically BRC20 and the Layer 1 Foundation.
And then, you know, you kind of made some different design decisions.
You're doing MetaStru and then ultimately did Proto Runes.
And then you were kind of starting to dig into Proto Runes a bit.
Yeah, so Proto Runes, think of it like it's a framework to build meta protocols on the
rune standard.
Those meta protocols can be interoperable, but anyone can go build that, use MetaStru to do it. And we open sourced all of it like it's a framework to build meta protocols on the rune standard. Those meta protocols can be interoperable, but anyone can go build that, use MetaShrie
to do it.
And we open sourced all of it.
So we open sourced MetaShrie OPC layer.
We open sourced proto runes in hopes that someone would take it and go build something.
Then we kind of realized, you know what, like everyone's going their own direction.
that everyone's going their own direction.
We've done all this research and built this.
We've done all this research and built this.
We may as well build what we think is the best design
of a smart contract protocol on the RUNE standard.
And so that's kind of how Alkanes came about.
And so what you really need for a smart contract,
like protocol, something that can have deep liquidity pools,
there's not fractionalized liquidity.
Taga?
Unfortunately, you're wrong, man.
I think we should all work on some application to get Taga some elite Wi-Fi.
I'm down to throw a little BTC into a fund to get Taga a some elite i'm down to put i'm down to throw a little uh btc into a fund to get
tagger a little wi-fi tagger i would recommend yeah let's try getting tagger on cellular maybe
on i think like what do you usually do when you have an issue yeah i i use 5g man because
the wi-fi for some reason even though it's stable on my computer,
on my phone for Twitter spaces, sometimes it just wrecks.
And so I just use 5G.
And it is usually okay.
I mean, from time to time, it can get fucked too.
But, you know, it is what it is.
Yeah, 5G is the way to go, in my opinion. I've used 5G for every space I've ever been in.
Never had problems.
So I think Tgan needs to connect his
service provider maybe call verizon or whoever you're with and just tell them hey man
fix up dude tag has got like i think it sounded like he was at his like co-founders
family's like home in rural georgia is what it kind of sounded like they got to get some
starlink out there we gotta we gotta get a little Starlink going. I don't think the 5G works super well in the rural stuff.
It's usually for like urban.
Yeah, let me see.
Let me see.
Yeah, I think potentially hopping on a computer potentially would help.
Yeah, I don't know.
We'll get them back up here, guys.
Appreciate y'all's patience.
Okay. Okay. That's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah. Computer, phone, and then cellular versus Wi-Fi.
Those are like the permutations to mess around with if it rugs again. Yeah. So, okay. Please
continue. The proto-runes kind of evolved into alkanes as you took this open source thing
nobody was really building with it or like going in different directions and you're like screw it
we put it out there and like we're gonna prove you know what what can be done here and then that
obviously results in alkanes basically right yeah so it results in alkanes i think like you know we
had been working on this ordinal collection air Airheads as both a way to kind of build community around all the tools we're building and get people to understand us and kind of make, get some attention.
And we really hadn't announced that we were doing Alkanes yet until after the Mint.
And I mean, everyone here kind of knows how that Mint went.
I wish it would have gone better.
But, you know, things are kind of picking up now, which is good as people are seeing the things
that we've built and getting more used to what we're doing.
We're like, hey, we're building this meta protocol and it's called Alkanes.
We had already basically built it and we were doing end to end testing.
So we didn't want to announce it until we had tested it end to end.
And that just happened to be a couple of weeks after the air had
mint. And so we released Alkanes on block 880,000. And that was the night of the 19th,
so right on inauguration. And we didn't want people to have a land grab and start to build a minting tool and see a bunch of meme coins pop up
and then you have to trade them on a PSPT marketplace or someone has to add PSPTs to
their marketplace and it feels the same as BRC20 or RUNES without highlighting the programmability
aspect.
So, we kind of made the decision to just release docs and developer documentation and not really market it.
And so we had been over the past three months,
we'd just been cultivating a small big developer ecosystem and working on a,
working on a product that we're going to release on our end on Alkanes,
ensuring that, you know, the alkanes index is making
sure there's no bugs, ensuring that our RPC and our product can meet scale or any demand
or scale.
And everything that you see today that's released is community effort.
So the community figured out how to build
a free mint contract.
And so it's a smart contract that people are using
to mint these that's, you know, works similarly how,
you know, what works with ruins or BRC20
just directly within the protocol.
And someone created methane
and then someone created mint alkanes.
And, you know, a And a lot of Asia folks really
took it and ran with it. Moffitt built a minting product, he built PSPTs. So every asset, every
product, every tool that is live outside of the open source stuff, the indexer, our RPC product
in the wallet has come 100% from the community.
And so it's been amazing to kind of see both from the AirHood community side and Alcane's
developer community is very, very small, but very, very interesting.
People are very interested in helping each other and figure out how things work.
And now we're kind of getting to a point where there's a lot of excitement around what's
happening and people are starting to understand some of the differences. So our approach, because of how much demand, how much
interest there is, and how much great developer interest there is, we've kind of made a full pivot
from being a provider to some of these meta protocols and then having a wallet that can
ideally be a good experience for them and kind of this new era to focusing on products on the Alkane's meta protocol and ensuring
that people can distribute the data, get the index and have a good experience on the developer
side.
Okay.
And pretty much have you studied the like counterparty kind of history in the early
days at all?
You know, I wasn't necessarily there for those days, but you studied the counterparty kind of history in the early days at all?
You know, I wasn't necessarily there for those days, but, you know, counterparty obviously is one of those precursors that really kind of took off.
And I think one of the problems with something like a counterparty is when you have an additional gas token.
So for us, like it's extremely important that there's already enough friction on Bitcoin itself.
I think it's really important that the assets that are the most valuable are those that are built on a layer one system, and then they have the time and room to grow, and the culture develops
there on L1. Then that enables scale and enables a necessity for scale and enough interest
for those assets to move to different layers, whether it's a meta protocol or a layer two or
some of a lot of the other stuff that people are building today.
Yeah, I asked just because basically about exactly a decade ago, those guys were creating
what I would consider to be like the first Bitcoin meta protocol, basically.
And they had a dream of doing smart contracts on it, right?
Like that was like the end game.
And there was just a bunch of like controversy,
bunch of like, you know, quote unquote Bitcoin maxis back then,
like really, really didn't like all this stuff happening.
The tokens and NFTs on Bitcoin, they didn't like it.
And there was just a huge, like,
we don't like programmability. We don't like smart contracts. Vitalik leaves because of that,
goes and starts Ethereum. Counterparty devs are just kind of getting bullied. And that project
just kind of stops developing the smart contract. But that was always the plan. And then fast forward
eight or so years here to two years ago, Casey comes out with, you know, Ord and Ordinal's meta protocol for basically tracking Satoshi's and, you know, inscription ownership.
And then, you know, here we are.
You basically completed the natural progression of this, I think, which is like, okay, let's do the indexer.
Let's do the meta protocol.
But instead of having it being a specific set of tools that the indexer is doing,
let's just make it Turing complete.
Let's make it general purpose.
People can code whatever the hell they want.
This is kind of what happened with Bitcoin to Ethereum.
Sounds like you've completed the full circle here.
And, you know, I don't consider this an L2.
I don't consider this, you know, an L1.5.
I do, you know, you're building a meta protocol just like ordinals, just like or, just like
runes.
But the compute is capable of doing general purpose smart contracting.
And that's basically where we're at right now, right?
Like people are excited about the possibility of smart contracts and what that unlocks.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think, you know you know
to bring it back to an original point of why we started oil in the first place like this is why
we started it and this has been our sole focus for two years which is like how do we build you
need the wallet you need the wall to be open source you need you know you need really great
data you need a meta protocol you need tools that allow you to compile contracts you need to be able
to see the data from within those.
You need tools like Hard Hat.
You need primitives like an AMM.
They need to be open source and composable, and people need to have access to that data.
And so that's the infrastructure that we've really been building, and it's been kind of our sole focus and now that's coming to maturity and alkanes is not just like okay like you know
how can we how can we can how can we compete in the market it is we've been building this for
for for you guys and i think too like i've been thinking a lot about you know why we came why we
came to the conclusion of using metasharu to build youu to build on runes is what we've built would
not have been possible without everything that you've said, and especially what Casey's
built with both ordinals and runes.
The outkings of MetaProtocol kind of takes concepts from both of those.
One, contracts are deployed to the witness envelope, similar to an inscription in ordinal,
but they're a g-zipped wasm file and
so that way you get really really compact smart contracts and they're written in rust
so it actually you know fits bitcoin's design and then the asset you know lives on a utxo
utilizes the runestone message so every you know alkane transaction it has a you know a valid
your rune runestone transaction.
We pack what's called a proto stone and use kind of a different tag.
So it doesn't break Bitcoin consensus and it also doesn't break runes itself and makes it interoperable with runes.
So when we saw things happening with BRC20 and when runes happened and we were adding infrastructure for runes, for the wallet and for other builders, we were like, holy shit, like this is the best design for an asset on Bitcoin.
Like it's obvious, like very, very elegant.
And, you know, became obvious that, you know, this is where we can actually play because to your point, like let's make it general purpose. Let's shift the kind of developer focus
to the person who built the meta protocol
to let's make it open,
and it's now to the individual developers
and what they can actually go and do with it.
And if it's not open source,
it's going to be very difficult to grow.
And so now we have kind of all the templates.
Like for other wallets that want to integrate it,
we're very helpful.
We have the SDK that's open source to kind of deal with these assets. For those that have integrated runes, you know, it's fairly trivial in terms of figuring
it out with a couple of differences. So I think that's super critical for kind of the
growth and also for like additional experimentation and kind of the growth of like this new era of DeFi
and smart contracts on Bitcoin.
Okay, so we're gonna have to double click a little bit
on the maybe technical aspect of just like,
I don't wanna dive fully into the proto runes
versus runes versus like,
like I wanna understand in a second
how that actually works and like the specific differences. But before we do that, I want to understand, just break down at a high level what's actually
happening here. So I'm going to try my best to explain this. Feel free to interrupt me,
correct me if I'm wrong. Hopefully this is a useful exercise for the listeners who are like,
you know, hearing words like programmability and metaprotocol, but like don't really have
a mental model. So as you mentioned, basically people can
take these smart contracts. You can write a smart contract. It's basically just a bunch of code
that you're storing in the witness data. So essentially you're storing it in the Bitcoin
blockchain. That just like an inscription is stored there forever. And then you have this indexer like, you know, BORD, but obviously the Alkanes version.
And basically that is looking, watching the Bitcoin blockchain as transactions are coming into the Bitcoin blockchain.
And if one of them has a op return message in it for the Alkanes, you know, meta protocol that is basically saying,
hey, I want to interact with this smart contract.
I want to call this function and I want to pass this data into the function.
Very similar to how it would be on Ethereum or something.
Then we're in this indexer going to basically process that, compute it.
Okay.
And then we are going to basically change state.
And as long as all of the indexers kind of run that continuously forever, you end up
with tracking the state of these smart contracts over time and who owns what in a very programmable
fashion.
Is that at a super high level, correct?
Yeah.
I mean, that's really close.
I would say one core difference at the very end is you get finality through Bitcoin consensus.
And so the indexer is open source.
So as somebody builds a transaction with the PSPT with the right protostone, runestone, protostone message to interact with a smart contract or deploy a smart contract that lives on chain forever so it uses the bitcoin da
so even if someone's indexed down or it doesn't work correctly you always have that source of
truth so it's you know it's source anchored to bitcoin in terms of in terms of what should
happen to state right and this is the idea with ord and Ordnoles and Ruins too. Like there's an open
source indexer. Anybody can at any time go run that and compare the results. This was
the issue that I had with BRC 20, which was like, hey, I want to know what the hell the
balance is, but I can't go prove this for myself. I'm having to call an API that Unisac controls.
Right. And I think that's gotten much better more recently, but it was a legitimate issue that I had,
you know, maybe a year or two years ago.
Okay.
Yeah, and things have to be open source, right?
I mean, the reason for that was like,
Unisat wanted to own the protocol,
so they very actively didn't open source it, right?
And very close to the indexer wars,
like New Year's before the happening where they're like,
hey, we're gonna make an upgrade, and no other indexer had time to make it and they're
we're going to do this and and so you know something l1f is like doma and i are both
trying to get this thing open source as soon as possible um but i i think with things like brc20s
or runes you people people can could more easily build moats around them because you build a PSPT
marketplace and you hide your PSPTs behind an API, right? And then you're actually building a moat of
liquidity and it fractionalizes it versus an open shared space with an open source indexer and smart
contract platform where anyone can both see smart contracts have been deployed or utilize them, right? Like now a, uh, AMM gets launched. Um, a wallet could, without asking the developer
of that AMM without asking for permission, build a router and just route liquidity directly
to it. And it's completely trustless and on chain. Um, and then you have, you know, liquidity
that grows and it's not fractionalized kind of across these players.
But that's why open source will win.
It's because people will always get to the point where they're like, hey, like, I kind
of got some motion here.
I want to build a moat around this business.
And it's very difficult not to go and do that.
So I think that that's one of kind of the critical things that we saw as like the index
rewards and kind of meta protocols have played out over the past two years.
Could not agree more. And to me, it's like this is just very foundational equation of any blockchain or really anything.
to be open and decentralized and, you know, open source.
And like everybody should be able to interact with that and have somewhat of a fair, fair
opportunity of interacting with that protocol.
Right.
And I would argue that like, you know, or Casey specifically on that issue nailed that.
And, you know, maybe there is some better way to do NFTs on Bitcoin than ordinals.
But whoever tried to do that or
tries to do that, you know, kind of makes it too corporate and not open source. And then it
ultimately fails or something like this. Right. And it's like super critical. And I think a huge
lesson from Casey is like, you got it. You got to make the actual protocol itself open source and
fair. And then the apps on top, the tokens on top, those can have these centralized things,
whatever. Right. But everybody needs to have equal access on top, those can have these centralized things, whatever, right?
But everybody needs to have equal access.
Otherwise, it's like as a developer, why am I going to go build here if it feels like, you know, why would I go build for BRC20 if like Unisat has like this huge...
If it's like I'm just watching Unisat like build on it and I have to do something.
Or even like even Casey, right?
Like Casey is, you know, this is, he's got certain beliefs
and why he's designed the protocols, how he's built them.
And they're incredible and they're amazing.
But I think like having something that's open and generalized,
then it kind of gives people, developers more to go and do.
And then that's how it like gets more robust, gets more secure,
more interesting things are built, more cultures built. And gets more robust it's more secure more interesting things
are built more culture is built and so i think it's just super critical for that to happen
yeah yeah look so there are different devs different builders different projects launching
on this meta protocol um i think one of the things that i keep hearing about which people
keep asking me about is like diesel and methane and butane.
And I don't know why there's a fixation on the fuel tokens, but clearly that's like a meta going on.
You got to break down for me.
Like, are these Proro runes?
What are these?
Explain, like, are they meme coins?
Like, what the hell is going on?
The DGens all are asking me and I'm like, I have no idea, guys.
They're all alkanes
um but they also are proto runes right like any alkanes is a protocol built on proto runes someone could build another proto rune smart con smart contract protocol that's a fork one-to-one
that you would have to do like an atomic swap between them or a single app that uses a ton
of compute that maybe they want their own kind of instance
or something um so what these assets are like i'll take the the other ones besides diesel diesel is
different um the the suite of of chemicals and science on chain uh these all are derived someone
someone built a free mint smart contract.
So the free mint smart contract, now anyone can call that contract and build and create an asset that's a free mint.
They decide what the pre-mine is.
Very similar to how just runes works generally, enshrined in the protocol.
But this is something that it's a module, but it's interoperable with any alkane asset
or any alkane debt.
So methane was the very first community asset.
So people from the community built the Freemant contract, deployed methane, and then people
started minting it.
And so what's kind of come out of that i think i think because alkanes
is like alkanes is a hydrocarbon that creates petrochemicals and oil and diesel it just kind
of like people kind of like took that and ran with it and then they're like let's put the whole so
there was someone made a joke like uh i think asia was really minting it and they didn't understand
they thought it was like one mint alkanes was like alkanes and they were controlling it they
didn't understand that anyone could deploy it.
And so they're like, these guys are going to mint the entire periodic table.
So that's just kind of how that played out.
I mean, these assets could turn into protocols where a protocol could say,
this has a use in an AMM or a lending protocol, or they could be used in a rewards contract.
in an AMM or a lending protocol, or they could be used in a rewards contract.
Let's say you provide liquidity to a methane BUSD pool, and someone wants to say, I will
give you methane, I will build a rewards contract that will autonomously give you methane based
off how much of your prorational ownership of that LP pool.
So there's a lot of stuff that can happen kind of going forward, but this is like very
primitive use case of smart contracts, right?
It doesn't look different than runes, but it is different because it's its own smart contract that someone has built.
Okay, are these meme coins?
Like is methane a fart coin kind of joke or like you got to really break down from here?
Is this a utility token that somebody in Asia is building a project for?
Like literally what is the token?
No, I think it's just the first meme coin.
It's the first free mint like bear asset that got launched.
So Ordi vibes?
Yeah, so kind of Ordi vibes.
I think that's kind of where they're running with it.
And it's like before there was like anywhere to trade it, like through PSPTs or anything,
there was just like crazy like Google Sheets in Asia trading them OTC deals, people selling
them OTC over WeChat.
And they're like, you know, really kind of anticipating, you know, an AMM.
an amm um so that's those those are those assets and those are most of the assets that you're
So that's those those are those assets.
And those are most of the assets that you're seeing.
seeing diesel is um so also the way to think about an alkane like an alkanes an asset it's
also a smart contract so it's more similar to like an erc 20 right um and okay but but you say it's
similar to an erc 20 but are these the account model like brc20 or are they living in txos like rooms utxo um yeah it just just in
the sense that so diesel has an example diesel is an asset and diesel is also a smart contract
so the smart contract for diesel um we like almost like at the midnight hour we're like well
we kind of want to show the difference of of how you can create a really simple smart contract
difference of how you can create a really simple smart contract that shows kind of the difference
of what you can go and do, but at the same time, mirrors Bitcoin culture and has a different
issuance than maybe a free mint or something else.
And so the diesel smart contract allows one person to mint the mint diesel every block and it mirrors one-to-one the coinbase
so right now every block you can someone can mint 3.125 bitcoin and then at the next halving it will
half and the next halving it will half so the last diesel can be minted in you know 115 years in
2140 alongside the coinbase alongside bitcoin um wait so like how are people minting it today
is there a website like how does somebody do this yeah so it's actually crazy because i'm like about
about a month or so in i was like is anybody even minting this thing and i'm gonna figure this out
and so i like uh got in claude and i said claude, clone the oil SDK, which allows you to kind of call smart contracts and construct, you know, like transactions.
And in the docs, it kind of shows you how to mint stuff.
And Diesel's two zeros, the first asset that went live.
So I'm going to figure out how to go mint this. So I got in my terminal just on my MacBook Air and connect to Sandtru, I get the data,
got the SDK, and I start making commands to Mint Diesel.
And I wrote a little script that said every 20, 30 minutes or whatever, like try a mint
and let that go for 10 hours.
And I come back and I only won one.
I'm like, what?
So I found that there are a ton
of people that were minting this already they figured out how to kind of do something similar
to myself and so there's there's kind of like two two different ways people have been minting them
right and the reason why minting platforms don't have them is because like pretty bad experience
to click mint and then you lose the mint um and so people are competing and you know paying doing basically having rbf wars
to pay a higher fee for a higher chance for their transaction to be included first into a block
and so that competition started heating up quite a bit and then rebar shield came live with their
product and they have a product that allows you to essentially send transactions, private transactions, direct to Amp Pool.
And so then there was a group that figured out, well, we can actually go direct to Amp Pool
and have private transactions to hide our effective fee rate.
And so now there's, you know, that kind of goes back and forth.
But, you know, recently this past week, people have been paying upwards of 10,000 SAP or
V-byte at the chance to mint 3.125 diesel the most
someone's paid is 3 million sats which is like insane that's a thousand let's see essentially
like you're paying a thousand dollars for one diesel wait wait why did someone pay 3 million
sats i don't know if they fat fingered it or if they were just trying to test the limits
it's like that's
a 1.5 billion dollar market cap yeah because bro like i remember the the dog the dog transaction
was like 1.5 i think million and that was like that cost us like an arm that was like 150 000
yeah yes someone paid over three grand to mint three point to try to mint three well i hope they want it i hope they want it
yeah if you look at um the the uh the if you look at the bitcoin blocks recently you'll see that the um range of transactions of bees and per block have like an insanely high uh peak where like a
good 60 of the block is like normal transaction fees and then you
have an incredibly high ramp up for like the top 10 with these insanely high alkanes competitive
mint fees it's been very it's been hilarious yeah it's it's it's pretty crazy and so like we we we
pre-mine so basically it started at happening last having uh diesel and then we pre-mine. So basically it started at Havning, last Havning, uh, diesel.
And then we pre-mine to block 880,000.
So we have around 28% because we realized we're like, okay, like this is
going to get really competitive.
Likely it will be like one person initially that's trying to get everything.
And then it will become so competitive.
Either you have to pay a ton and build infrastructure or you have to be a miner.
Either you have to pay a ton and build infrastructure or you have to be a
miner.
So we kind of pre-mined so that we could give diesel away to, you know, our kind of XP holders, well-pass holders.
We're going to do retroactive grant funding to people building on alkanes and ensure that there's kind of enough liquidity in the AMM when that goes live.
goes live and you know make sure that the community has you know is able to actually have it um and to
kind of battle some of these kind of smarter and more sophisticated players so is it fair to say
that this is like an ecosystem utility token or would you push back and would you push back on
that the the diesel diesel asset it just does what the smart contract says. That's it.
It's not a protocol token.
It's not required for gas.
For us, it was, you know, we want to show the capabilities of this.
And, you know, possibly in the future, secondary markets can be built on top of it, right?
Miners may actually want to go and order transactions to get diesel
and um you could build like staking primitives on top of that to kind of reward people almost like mining pools do today um so you know that's that's kind of the possibilities of where it could
go um but it's you know it's it doesn't do anything other than what the smart contract says. Okay, so I'm going to ask it slightly more directly,
just because I know this is a question that people want me to ask.
So with BRC20, there was this token SASS that had a similar sort of like very long
mint out situation over the course of the summer of 2023 and early fall.
And that token, you know, everybody said, oh, this is just a silly meme coin.
And then this like, you know, huge company comes along and adds utility to it.
And, you know, makes it a utility token for their decks and stuff like that.
I mean, are you thinking about that at all?
Or can you not speak of that?
I mean, I think like it's probably obvious that Unisat minted a ton of that, you know, which kind of had incentive.
Wait, Unisat mint?
I'm just kidding.
Keep going.
Yeah. I mean, for us, I've minted maybe 100 myself. I think that's total with the whole team.
But we want people to compete and people to get it and love it. But yeah, there's no plans to
make any utility. It may be just something that we gift people and we use our supply to incentivize people to provide liquidity to the pool, which would help people building things like stable coins, people building things like Bitcoin derivatives.
So there's more liquidity in the system for people to trade other assets that are created.
Am I correct in understanding that the purpose of Alkanes is largely to be like a top of funnel to your other infrastructure products like oil or Sandshrew?
Yeah, I would say probably more on the Sandshrew side.
Everything's open source, but we have all the orchestration
going to run a hosted service.
And we've given away Santru for free without limits
for like a year.
Yeah, well, yeah, because like if, I mean,
if Alkanes continues to take off,
you see skyrocketing demand for a performing API or PC
to deliver that data.
You do strategic partnerships as it gets listed on major sexes or you help OKX build that.
I don't know how you, I don't know what you plan.
I was kind of just curious about like, I think a lot of people are assuming that you're trying
to make money off the specific Alkane protocol when it doesn't appear to be the case.
That's more of a top of the line.
Yeah, I mean, for us, it's like the services.
We've tried to make money off of the Sandtruth services,
but there's been plenty of better services, right,
that focus more time on it.
So now our focus is purely on Alkane's
and building products for Alkane's.
So from a company perspective, we haven't announced anything that we're building
on it yet and we haven't even launched anything on it yet.
But we are, we are, we have been building an AMM for the past couple months.
And so that is going to be kind of the core product on the, on the company side.
And then plus, you you know the data services so but for us it's like you know we have like a free key for for hobbyists free key for
for developers to go figure it out and get things going and then you know kind of a very typical
product and we can also do like hosted services for large players bigger wallets exchanges people
that are building really great dApps and you of working with them. But for us, we just want to see more DeFi happening, more assets, more wealth creation.
And the AMM, I think, is the kind of core focus for us on the product side.
Okay.
Okay, so just I'm trying to create the mental model here. So there are these methane and butane and probably many other elements that are all purely community, basically non utility tokens, people just messing your like official protocol token or something like this, but it is by the team.
So I'm trying to create the mental model here.
It's sort of like, you know, Domo deployed already.
And because, you know, Domo is considered the creator of BRC20, there's some kind of coolness to that.
It's similar to Casey and Uncommon Goods or something like this.
And it's kind of this non-utility token that exists out there.
Is it a meme coin?
Is it a culture coin? Is it a culture coin?
Something in this realm?
It's Bitcoin, the game on Bitcoin.
So I heard this on the show on Monday.
You do consider it to be like a game token then?
Yeah, I mean, it's the same game as Bitcoin.
It's just, you know, it can involve miners.
It involves people. Like, think about Bitcoin when it's it's it's you know it can involve miners it involves people like
think about bitcoin when it started bitcoin anyone can mine it and you know and then it's like okay
now i need asics and then it's like okay now i need to build extreme infrastructure go to go play
this game and so it's it's kind of like front running that it's like speed running it's not
running not front running sorry speed running kind of that a similar kind of trajectory and we just
wanted we wanted to show,
you can build a distribution that is like Bitcoin.
You can build any type of distribution
of an asset that you want.
You can build it as a utility token.
It can be a governance token.
It can get fees from a protocol.
It can be a fun meme coin that then can be used
in an AMM or used in a lending protocol
or be something that people are like, this community is really strong. We're going to incentivize that being added as something that
we use in lending or the first reward contract for providing liquidity to something. But yeah,
I hope that makes sense. Yeah, it does. So, okay, so you mentioned you pre-mined it.
Have you like published like more specifics on exactly,
like you mentioned a bunch of different things,
but is there like a pie chart of where I can see
what that's going to basically?
Like it sounds like you're going to fund developers
building in the ecosystem, various other things like this.
Have you formally kind of published stuff like that yet or is it still in the works so we have a we have if you go to the alkanes.build
docs and learn there's like what is diesel it kind of explains the kind of our motivations and
what it is and also has a link to the actual code the smart contract um we we haven't published like
a pie chart um uh yet and exactly where that's going to go um we're going to start distributing
that to you know xp holders whale pass holders and retroactive grant funding to people that have
built useful useful products for tools on top of it um but we'll we'll share more in terms of like
a pie chart and and what we're going to do with that.
Okay, cool.
And like, yeah, I guess I'm...
Okay, so is there going to be an official token protocol ever?
Protocol token?
Or are you just BTC and then everything else is considered kind of like this ulterior app type thing or something like this?
Yeah, so there's never going to be a protocol token.
Diesel is, you know, it hasn't been sold to VCs.
So no one has claimed to it.
You know, purely we're going to, you know,
use it to kind of grow the ecosystem and support builders and support kind of early folks
and community members.
Did you have like a Bitcoin hag or something i i forget about this you know do you
remember what i'm talking about like you're talking about sub frost oh yeah sorry there's a lot of new
words that i have to yeah who is who is the person coming up with all the words on the team is that
you talking about it's it's it's it's it's mostly coal it's it's mostly coal and judo honestly like uh oil we came up with oil
we got together and we're like we have to do something with ordinals and we came with oil
if it was our first idea and then uh we were trying to figure out a name for there's actually
some lore here maybe i shouldn't share it but um because it's kind of embarrassing for the for the
other person but um we came up with a different name and we kind of were talking about it on on like spaces as like here's a possible idea of
what alkanes became and then someone else took that took that name uh so we were thinking of a
name for for alkanes and wait are you talking about the programmable runes proto runes thing
I mean we are put or something we are proto we Or something different. We are proto-runes. We are also our program, Bloorunes.
That's also us.
Right, but is that what you're referring to?
Or like, I missed stuff.
Is that what you're referring to or something different?
No, something different.
There was a different name.
Oh, interesting.
And so then we were trying to come up with names.
And a lot of it was, you know, oil, petrochemical,
other kind of names.
And then Flex came up with alkanes.
And initially, Cole and I were- Hey, T kind of names. And then Flex came up with alkanes and initially Cole and I were-
Hey, Taga.
Yeah.
Are we going to be able to wrap,
you know, tokens like BRC?
You got to be called on, Count.
I did see you down there
and we're going to be wrapping up
the interview in a second
and I will definitely leave it open for AMA
so that people can come up
here and ask, but do you want to just go through the main interview first? And then I promise we'll
get to you literally probably in like five minutes here. So appreciate your patience, bro. Keep going,
Tyga. Yes. I mean, so, so, so the flex came up with the name Alkanes and he was like really
gung ho on it. Both Cole and I were like, I don't know i don't know like i don't it might be too nerdy
it might like it doesn't really make sense and went through a bunch of names and then it just
kind of grew on us and we're like no it has to be this um but yeah there's a there's a slew of other
names for for fun stuff that's possible and other people that are thinking about building building
other tools that we are happy to give away um but yeah, so I mean, I think it turned out really well
because as we dive into it,
it's like alkanes are hydrocarbons
that make up, you know, petrochemicals.
And so this full like oil,
if Bitcoin is now oil, it can be productive.
It can be used in kind of an industrial revolution,
but it's kind of the digital revolution of Bitcoin itself.
It's kind of where a lot of these things have flown out of okay and then how do i check the market caps and prices like i have
no i i was trying to like figure out how much you know methane or diesel or these tokens are worth
i have no no clue it was not easy to find yeah the best place honestly is probably id club because
they're there i think they're the only PSPG market right now.
And so I think they have.
Can you tell me what the username of that is so I can pin it above for people?
Yeah, it is.
Moffat is also in the space.
It's ID Club underscore Ord.
ID Club underscore Ord.
ID Club underscore.
Okay.
I see it.
Just follow them.
We're going to pin.
I'm just going to pin a random tweet from them so that they,
so that the listeners can check it out.
But yeah,
so if I,
okay, I'm going to go check this out.
So if I go to ID club.io,
can you guys hear me still?
Yep.
Okay,
sweet.
I have the browser open and inside of Twitter.
Okay. So resources, metagraph.dev,
and that's like a graph and block explorer,
and it shows you all the tokens.
You can see your balances.
It also has stuff where you can run traces,
so you can actually, if you're trying to mint diesel
or you did a transaction, you can run a trace
to get more metadata on that transaction,
see if it was reverted or if it was successful.
Other metadata, if you deploy a token,
you'll be able to see what ID it's at.
You can also simulate transactions.
So without actually deploying a smart contract,
you can simulate what that transaction will do
in a real environment,
and they're building really cool tools there as well. Very cool. a smart contract, you can simulate what that transaction will do in a real environment.
And they're building really cool tools there as well.
Very cool.
So just for the listeners to hear the top tokens right now, it looks like number one is diesel.
So diesel is $28.8 million market cap.
And then number two is methane, which is $12.3 million market cap.
Number three is butane, which is seven. So it is a big drop off there that it's $770K.
Yeah, and it looks like there's a bunch of tokens between $100K,
you know, $1 million that are all kind of fighting, I guess, to be prominent.
But yeah, butane, doge, cheeky bee, pepe, fartane, hexane, bitcat.
Why is there a bitcat on every protocol?
I'm going to have to do that with no animals.
For the first 300 tokens, there was maybe one animal.
And now, yeah, Cheeky B, I completely missed that today.
I'm seeing it on the timeline.
People are like, did you mint this?
I was like, completely minted out today.
But that one's really fun.
Builds on the pup's lore. So is that a little puppeteer uh piece of art it's uh it's it's the guy who did the gizmo
art he he okay so yeah i i mispronounced his name so i apologize but yeah the the puppets artist um
very cool yeah so he very actually did launch it himself it was yes oh he launched it ah interesting yeah
okay okay so i think we just covered hopefully some stuff for the deejins there i'm gonna let
them uh come and just uh send a bunch of questions your way in a second but i want to just lastly
here talk very briefly about the ordinal's collections. So you have these two Ordinals collections.
One is called Airhead.
The other is called Airhead Well Passed.
So Airhead is like a 10K PFP.
I would call it a 10K PFP, but it actually...
It's more of a collection.
It more looks like...
It's like, to describe it to the listeners, like you're collecting an action figure kind of thing that I guess can also be
used as a PFB of sorts. So that's the one big collection. And then there's Airhead Whale Pass,
which is like this much smaller collection of just a few hundred basically tickets. Do these
provide utility into the Alkanes ecosystem at all? Why are people holding them? Is it purely
just for the art? What does the Whale Pass get you? Explain the sort of narrative behind them. Yeah. So, I mean, the Ares collection,
we did it in collaboration with Arthur Hayes. And Arthur Hayes was the first investor
and his only kind of ordinal type investment that he's made. And he pitched to us, he's like,
I want to launch an ordinal. And so we kind of went back and forth with a bunch of ideas over
the first year. And Cole kind of like came up with three concepts for him. And Airhead was the one
that like he loved the most and we had the most fun like laughing about. But it kind of mirrors a
lot of like these concepts of, you know, cultural relevance today, putting, you know, obesity on chain,
inflation in this world where we're basically getting beat down by inflation unabated,
and you can actually put inflation on chain. And so it was kind of meant to be more of like
a collection in our collection. And we started, you know, we started to Twitter and started
talking about it. And it got, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of interest.
Like people were really excited about kind of the content, the 3D art.
We built, you know, all these tools, AI tools and tools to actually go and play with the art and build 3D models and build videos.
And so it kind of like naturally progressed to,
we kind of had this idea to do XP for people to get a whitelist.
And that XP system has kind of turned into more of something
that we've adopted for Alkanes itself.
So how XP works is there's three ways that you can get XP
in the wallet by bringing eligible assets.
And so there's a list of BRC20s,
a list of runes, a list of ordinals, collections, and XP calculates the floor price of those
collections or assets and then gives you a multiplier. So runes have the highest multiplier,
well um whale passes they get you um 400 uh 420 690 xp instantly and you're able to claim a free
airhead um and then it also has the whale pass has a virtual balance that ticks up every block
so it's a little bit kind of like a minor um and the whale pass also allows you to earn xp if you
have assets that aren't in oil wallet so you can send your whale pass to a vault or an expert's
wallet or any wallet that you want and then send it back to your oil wallet it will count the assets
ordinal's ruins that are eligible in the other wallet and give you xp um and um airheads, if you hold airheads in the oil wallet, you get accumulated daily
rewards based off of your tier. So in airheads, there's tiers from extra small to bedridden.
So the bedridden ones are the most rare, the fattest. And so people have been accumulating
that in the oil wallet. So a lot of that is, you know, we're going to kind of announce that season one of that
will end.
We'll probably add more eligible assets, especially those that are, you know, kind of alkanes
related.
And then season two will be kind of outside of the wallet and be more focused on activity
on alkanes itself.
So you know, whale passes get you a lot of xp get
you an airhead and they have kind of this fun uh uh like virtual balance kind of like almost minor
thing um so i mean that's there's only 555 total of the whale passes and so you know i think a good
amount of diesel is going to go go to kind of those early supporters
okay so basically to summarize xp is this like point system that you get by holding the ordinals
and you're airdropping diesel to the ordinal soldiers via the xp basically correct yeah i
mean you you also get it by holding other brc20s runes and and other assets and um whale pass just allows you
to use other wallets and gives you more xp and has the virtual balance so there's you know xp
plus whale passes are kind of two different things we can go look at and um yeah so we'll we're
going to share more you're probably this week on exactly how you can go and do that and more about how that will
transition to season two okay very cool so what usually will happen here is like if diesel goes
up you know 2x for example probably these collections will go up as well because they're
almost like proxies to get diesel airdrops so it's an interesting dynamic there um definitely
cool that you had arthur hayes uhes as a collaborator on that. That's
pretty cool.
And the other thing really is just like, it's been useful to build a community that now
is, whether they love it or they hate it, they have a path to get to know us better,
get to know the products that we're building, how they work together. And a lot of the Alkanes
developers and ecosystem kind of came out of the attraction to
to airheads um and so that's kind of how like that kind of like slow burn culture has been
built over the past you know six four four to six months um and now you know i i think it's it's it's
very different collection um and um it's uh yeah it's it's, it's really, it's, it's really fun.
Cole is a Cole, Cole who kind of did all the creative direction.
He's one of the co-founders.
He's a, you know, Rhode Island school of design grad.
Um, so our art school kid, you know, very kind of classically trained in art and, uh,
has done a lot of really cool stuff.
Awesome. And I got to meet Cole on Monday on the show and, uh of really cool stuff. Awesome.
And I got to meet Cole on Monday on the show
and definitely a cool guy.
Glad to have gotten to meet him.
So my final question,
and then I'm going to send this over to Jan
if he has any questions.
And then, guys, I see y'all raising your hands
and anybody can come up and ask questions in a second.
But my final question is,
okay, proto runes are
different than the alkanes tokens what is the top proto rune right now and are proto runes basically
a fork of runes essentially that you think is better than runes is that basically the situation
so so the only proto runes are alkanes right now because alkanes is the only proto-runes are alkanes right now
because alkanes is the only proto-rune metaprotocol.
Okay, okay.
So I see it.
I see.
It's like every circle or every square is a rectangle,
but not every rectangle is...
Proto-runes is just...
Think of it as a framework
to build programmable rune metaprotocols.
And so if you're a developer,
you'll see in the index and all code, like reference to proto runes.
But someone could build another proto rune meta protocol
that may be for just some fun little app that just does one
thing and creates assets or does something.
And that would be interoperable with Alkanes.
But yeah, I mean, know the cool another cool thing about alkanes is
you um can build like many token standards quote unquote you know similar to ethereum's got erc20
it's got 721 other nft standards so it's so one cool thing that that people are building in the
eco right now is they've built an NFT standard and they're working on that.
It's called the orbitals.
And so you can do things like generative art.
You can, a marketplace can do something that's more similar to like an OpenSea where you
can actually have on-chain bids, auctions, and kind of like that type of programmability
that's trustless.
But if somebody were to come up with a second NFT standard or a second new way to do tokens, those would be interoperable by default.
And you wouldn't have to bridge or wrap or do anything to utilize them.
Okay. Okay, very cool.
And I know we spoke very briefly before just about this idea of bringing the OG runes into the Alkane's DEXs.
Yeah.
Is that, what's like the situation there what's the status on that just another question people are super curious yeah i mean i
think like my general generally i've been thinking about this a lot and what what what i've kind of
come up with and this realization is like it seems like runes have won right like you look at all the developers that
are working on runes working on different different layers for them different apps different different
ways to trade them um it has kind of has kind of the west and now you have you know the fastest
growing and first smart contract meta protocol it's built on runes and it has interest from the east and interest from the west um and so like og runes i think people can take a deep breath
because i think ruins you could you could just leave this leave leave bitcoin for the next couple
years and look back at your dog and it's going to be very valuable no matter where it's traded
um because they're kind of the first and they they're the first they can build culture around this kind of new way to to trade and do do programmability
on bitcoin um so i'll just say that first and so i think like og runes are super critical to us
and it's it's easy to feel left out because it's like oh man like odin fun and funky bit and all
this stuff like there's all these new tokens there you know og runes versus you know whatever runes and it's kind of feeling left out and so i think like that's you know it's
super critical for us and everything i mean the great thing is everything on alkanes is open
source anyone who just go build anything and so we've been kind of like talking with different
folks like you know leafo is like building tools for alkanes he built you know or the ordinal swap
product it'd be so sick if he built a product where you can just do a trustless pspt from
you know from og dog to the you know alkanes dog and that can be then used to get rewards and to
be in an amm and to be in a pool and to to do stuff with and then people could more easily reward them
or like even someone like experts it's trusted that's built a bunch of these like really great in an amm and to be in a pool and to to do stuff with and then people could more easily reward them
or like even someone like experts it's trusted that's built a bunch of these like really great swap products across different layers like could do something like that um but i think the more
people that are looking at it to develop the more you know the more the more the more stuff's
possible um so you know definitely very interested in helping and supporting that and anyone who's interested in doing more stuff there, you know, supporting them
on the developer side.
Okay. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. So definitely, definitely sounds like some sort of, whether
you call it bridging or whatever you want to call it, getting the OG runes into the
world of the Alkanes tokens and being able to, you know, interoperate
into those smart contracts for DEXs and whatever else, whatever else people basically end up
building is definitely, you guys see some value in that, which is definitely cool to
hear.
Jan, did you have any questions, anything that like we talked about that didn't make
sense that you want to ask about?
Really anything, man, wanted to hand it over to you.
really anything man wanted to hand it over to you yeah thanks thanks leo um daga i
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks, Leo.
yeah i actually would love to double click on this uh you know how to potentially bring the og
runes or the runes to uh alkanes is it like my question comes from the angle of like is it
of like, is it simpler just because proto runes and alkanes are built on the top of runes?
Or is it just because it's a different meta protocol at the end of the day, you need a
different indexer, then it's basically just another type of bridge that has to be done.
Or let's say even a Bitcoin transaction that needs to bring those or wrap
those assets so can you like explain that you know just uh for people who are less technical
you know like me to understand what it what is actually going to be happening on the background
yeah i mean the great the great news is that you know uh alkanes and runes they both use valid rune
so messages right and so it's it And so it's much simpler for people
to build infrastructure to do stuff with either
or make them interoperable.
But for both BRC20 and BRC20 2.0, runes and alkanes,
no matter what, you have to bring that
into some programmable instance,
whether you send it to OdinFun or you send it to a layer two.
But the great news is that with
runes and alkanes, you can trustlessly do that. It's just a PSPT. And ensuring that you have the
right support on the indexer side. So you don't lose access to your asset or have to trust somebody.
You can just kind of bring those back and forth in a way that is trustless.
There's also, I mean, we built within proto runes, there's something called a proto burn.
And we've kind of mostly abandoned that.
But there is a possibility where you could build something where you can do a one way like burn from rune to a proto rune or rune to an alkane.
And then it maintains the supply.
But we've mostly abandoned that because I think it doesn't really make sense. Like if you can just go back and forth, like somebody may, you know, move some of their dog over because someone's saying, if you have dog Alkane and pull this, then I'm going to reward you with this token.
And then once that's done, you're like, I'm going to go bring that back to OG Rune and put that in my vault.
And I think that's probably better.
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Maybe another question and then let's go to Decentralized because I know he has his hand up for a while now. But one question from my side is, obviously you said that the Chinese market likes it, right?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay.
So, you know.
Oh, no. did you get right
uh this is the classic talk about you're back john you're back oh yeah great i see i wrecked
from time to time too so uh you know you're not the only one t Taga. Awesome. I was asking about the China market, right?
Because I saw some sentiment on X recently that people even say,
hey, like Alkanes are taking off in China or in the Asian community
because people kind of look at it as like, quote, unquote,
maybe replacement for BRC20. Is that true? Is that not true? I mean, you guys, you know, you mentioned
you work with some mining pools that are also on the Asia side. So like, can you talk about that a
little bit? Like, you know, who is leading the effort in Asia? Like who is coming in? Like you
guys must have some sort of like, you know, insights into that.
So I would love to, I'd love to learn about that.
I mean, honestly, it came as a complete surprise for us.
And for whatever reason, when, when methane launched, Asia just ran with it.
And we were like, what is happening?
We distributed in the WeChat groups, talking about how to get it sharing more about what
alkanes is and then you know i think moffett who's in in his founder of id club he built you know
minting service and psbt trading because there was so much demand to trade these things uh on the
asia side um that you know he's kind of captured a good amount of that um so a lot of it like and then we just had in our like dev discord
just like huge like in pouring of of folks from the asia side you're kind of asking questions um
and it's just been this complete kind of organic thing and i think when when i look at you know
maybe some of the reasons why like i think there was a lot of folks from the atomicals, um, kind of eco that became interested because like Unisat, you know,
decommissioned atomicals and it didn't really turn out the way people wanted. Um, and so the timing
of that, I think was just like really, um, you know, unique. And, um, I think too, I think like, because of the, you know, fracture of BRC20 from runes,
they kind of, you know, a lot of kind of the Asian community felt, you know,
kind of went down the BRC20 side and kind of missed out on some of the rune stuff.
And now it's kind of like, as a lot of the stuff that's played out is like BRC20,
like went to fractal and it's doing a bunch of different stuff and don't know kind of like a as a lot of the stuff that's played out is like brc20 like went to fractal and it's doing a bunch of different stuff and don't know kind of where things are at and then just like
seeing you know understanding more about alkanes you know and understanding that this is a lot of
kind of what a lot of people have promised from like kind of the atomicals or others
on kind of programmability it's something that that's real and actually happening and so um
that's real and actually happening.
And so, you know, as far as I can tell,
that's kind of the reason.
Makes sense.
Sorry, Decentralize, just one more follow-up on this.
So, you know, you guys, I mean,
you mentioned it at the beginning.
So you guys were involved in the L1F Foundation with Domo.
Obviously, Domo Creator, BRC20s,
kind of put together the alliance between you guys and
unisat and probably best in slot and you know people kind of developing the brc20 protocol but
you know let's be real right like you know we have not really heard much about brc20s and
you know i'm not a hater of brc20s like you know we support brc20s and i support any kind of
innovation you know that people want to use on bitcoin so you know we support brc 20s and i support any kind of innovation you know that people want
to use on bitcoin so you know like i'm not here coming from an angle that like you know i hate
brc 20s but like just very practically speaking like we have not heard too much we have been
hearing like for the past like one year or maybe even one and a half years that there is going to
be brc 2.0 but but nothing really materialized. And so my question again is like,
you know, you guys came from that ecosystem.
Are you guys giving up on that right now
and going to be 100% focusing on alkanes?
Because maybe, again, we discussed some of the problems
with the centralized indexers and stuff like that.
So can you just like, you know,
like tell us like, you know,
how you guys looking at it, you know,
from like maybe a, you know how you guys looking at it you know from like a maybe a you know support
perspective like are you going to be like 100% focused on alkanes are you still going to be
doing brc20s or like what's the situation there yeah yeah I mean if you go look at the l1f website
it says advancing the development of meta protocols on bitcoin Lara foundation is a non-profit
organization supporting to build brc20 token standard and other meta protocols built on Bitcoin. So when I started it with Domo,
initially it was supposed to be for all meta protocols and tools and to develop meta protocols.
And so we came at it from, we were building MetaShrew and our infrastructure for meta
program builders.
So we wanted to support it and we wanted to support more MetaProtocols and more exploration.
I think the biggest problem with L1F is the fact that Domo is a part of it. It just, ipso facto, people are like, this is just BRC20. And it went down that path.
it went down that path right um and so uh when we saw uh when when we saw you know fractionalized
to unisat and and invest in slot with two different approaches and going to different layers
and when runes launched we kind of went down the path like runes is actually much better standard
to build on and so we haven't really been part of any of those discussions for probably a year. And L1F should probably either change its website or be decommissioned. But yeah, I mean, where all the infrastructure that we built can be used to build like if he were to rebuild BRC20 today,
he would use MetaShrew and use our tools to do that.
But it's just, you know, sometimes the way the market goes,
it makes that kind of incapable of happening.
Makes sense. Thanks. Decentralize, go ahead.
Sorry to keep you waiting.
Wait, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
I feel bad because we skipped the D-Gentral.
You're good. Go ahead.
D-Gentralized was the last person.
So I guess Count left.
Oh, really? I don't see any other hands, though.
People gave up, bro.
Yeah, Count was here, but BitSavage, I believe, was first.
So I just want to make sure we're running the order,
and then we'll go to D-Gentralized next.
Bit, what's up, bro?
You got a question for Taga?
Dope, dope.
Yeah, I got two questions. One question for taco dope dope yeah i got two questions um one
question for tag is about the rpc um i know it's i don't know how it's exactly funded right now
so i want to know will they be like open calls for like public donations or how is the funding
going to expand for like millions of people to use it. That's the first part. Is there a second question?
The second question is
when is Dog coming to Outgames?
Yeah.
First question, I can actually answer
that second one
hopefully soon.
First answer,
we've been basically funding
it since we started giving free access to people.
In fact, like apps like Liquidium and Odin Fund use it via LaserEyes.
Like if you develop with LaserEyes, you get a free Sandtrue key.
But now it's rate limited.
So, you know, we're continuing to kind of fund it on the hosted side as kind of more apps are using it.
You know, that allows us to continue to kind of build better infrastructure and keep that as a public good.
We haven't necessarily thought about taking donations, but I think, you know, ideally there's kind of more people that come together
on kind of the more infrastructure side that are kind of building this out that are supportive,
whether it's they're, you know, paying for, you know, dedicated service and we help them
do that and go run that, or there's kind of more smaller apps that are using it and getting
it for, you know, really cost-effective way versus running their own infrastructure.
Awesome. We're going to let the one and only DeGentralized speak on the Wordmove show.
Welcome, DeGentralized.
Wow, thanks, guys. So first off, I just wanted to, now that you guys have sufficiently pumped my bags by being incorrect about the founder of CheekyB will correct you politely uh it wasn't uh the puppet master it was actually lukey and the only reason
okay yeah yeah just make sure people know because he's gonna tweet about it in like an hour i didn't
launch this though you know how it goes uh so it was lukey but lukey didn't make the art the art
was made by 92 on easter and it's like an easter chicken and it has a dick for a nose and then so last night
someone said in a group chat we should launch this chicken on solana and lukey was like no we're not
launching that shit on solana you might as well just launch it on alkanes so he just front ran
them real quick and put it on alkanes as a free impairment so that there wasn't some solana shit
coin with the chicken basically and so that's what it and then my second thing is if we're ready for it can we open up the mev debate a little bit because i for one i'm stoked i am
so ready for mev i think everyone crying when i'm a little and i think y'all
need to just accept the fact that we're gonna this mempool up and then you're
gonna have to fix it end of story private man pulls to the moon baby yeah I mean rebar and I'm I'm all for it man I'm all fucking
for it guys like we have been at zero zero sats per vbyte for fucking three months now let's do
some earned decentralized like go the ahead let's do some earned marketing I mean the reality is
like you want on-chain metrics you want fees you want fees to go up you want people to arbitrage
so there's there's better pricing. You want people to
build tools like Rebar. Rebar has been working on this product. And I think most of the Rebar
private transactions are all Alkane's transactions right now. But those are great tools and they're
building more stuff in the future. And that's going to be a really great market that kind of
forms. But you need real transactions
and wealth creation and and and stuff to actually happen right um but I think it's it's it's it's
something that is you know it was is going to happen either way and it's kind of necessary
for growth and it's also necessary for scale um maybe it opens up the block wars conversation again and then i just said this
like two hours ago i'm tackling i am tackling right now tag i have been tackling all day long
once i realized what was about to happen you were about to force the block size debate within 12
months and i'm here for it yeah why does mev force the box size debate decentralized well tag could
tell you but my basic bitch
opinion is when everyone's fighting in the mempool and sniping each other and it just gets expensive
to do everything it's gonna 5 000 transactions is nothing right so we're gonna be sniping the
out of each other every two seconds for obscene amounts of money every block well i think what
charlie just pointed out is that similar to how like Mev has evolved on other chains,
eventually you just like have these whitelisted nodes that the services like whatever,
PumpFun and Moonshot and Slingshot, they all just whitelist the nodes and then there is no Mev, right?
But most people don't do that.
We're going to do the same thing here, right?
I mean, Charlie, am I wrong that like rebar has the private transactions now yep they
do uh they do that's all i'll say yeah so like if i'm building a deck i'm gonna submit this stuff
to antpool's private transaction you might but most people aren't just like on most people i mean
i disagree i think those people aren't gonna want to do that too right those people aren't gonna
want to use the product that doesn't have the protection.
People are still getting sandwiched tagged while we're talking right now.
I mean, apps could do it too, right?
They could have a little slider where you could say, add Rebar Shield.
Add Rebar Shield to all my transactions.
That's fair.
Yeah, I think I don't want to show Rebar Shield.
I'm not affiliated. I just talk to them a lot.
I would be looking at that product
as you're trying to skate where the puck is going.
Like if the shit takes off,
that's where you want to be.
And I think this leads into a bigger discussion.
Charlie, I have a question.
Go ahead.
Yeah, sorry, disheartening.
Charlie, I have a question
because, you know, it's interesting.
You guys mentioned this like,
you know, block size and stuff.
So, Charlie, we were at Upnext together like 10 days ago or whatever.
So it's not that, you know, it's not that long time ago.
I was actually surprised because I thought, like,
this topic of, like, block size is kind of like a forbidden topic
in the Bitcoin community.
But at Upnext, you actually had Jason Loop talking about,
like, you know, obviously block size, why some of the proposals in the past failed,
and maybe there is going to be another conversation about it in the future. And maybe there is
going to be a different way we approach it. So I just have a question, like, Charlie,
like, like, why is why is that that, like, you know, people are so okay to still talk
about it? Even I want to keep this focused on the...
Charlie, why are you a big blocker and what?
No, I'm just kidding.
Thanks, Leo.
I do want to...
I mean, do you want a fat block or do you want a skinny block?
Do you want a fat or a skinny or a normal?
I want a big fat block that are full of transactions.
And this is why I want Taga to deliver whatever is needed for the people to go mint their tokens.
I want more transactions on Bitcoin.
So in 30 seconds, basically, the longer that we go without increasing density of transactions
or the economic density of transactions, the more that transactions take off on Bitcoin,
the more pressure there's going to be to increase block size.
This probably will happen for the foreseeable inevitable future, decades even.
This will probably be a lifelong debate.
We had a debate eight years ago.
So things like if we don't get certain soft works like CTV or CAD or
checks and sac or things like that, We choose not to scale that way.
The big blockers will get louder.
And by the way, you can actually, with Alkanes, you can build a ZK
verifier and a bridge to a layer two.
Yeah.
And yeah.
So yeah, the more transactions that go on, the, the, the, the pressure will be as
people try to use Bitcoin to be like, oh shit.
I know fees are really, we're down to zero like two weeks ago,
but they have an incredibly reflexive upside and people underestimate how
expensive Bitcoin can get overnight.
And while my timing has been wrong on predicting,
I'm very confident that like you saw this May of 23,
Bitcoin went from like very modest transactions to the brc20
boom like my thought is and i i do you know shill a bit of the a narrative here which is like what
if may 25 is an echo of that because um the deejons the chinese deejons they want their tokens
and they will they will bid up to the absolute peak marginal uh buyer of block space yeah and
and and it's beyond mints right like it's a mints right now but then when an amm happens and there's
transactions in an amm and people are there's transactions to stake your lp to earn rewards
and more tokens are being emitted it's it's a much higher possible like fee environment
um so I got I got like a framing question, I guess.
So Udi's project from my understanding
is kind of geared on,
let's eventually get to the system
where we can say,
hey, we made the best L2 based on CAD,
based on whatever, right?
You guys, are you guys ever thinking about like,
we're going to eventually end up on L2
or are you guys here to build L1 tech?
Yeah, I mean, I'll kind of tell,
talk about kind of like our thesis
and it kind of goes
back to why we started the you know oil in the first place and it's really kind of looking back
at history like ethereum um ethereum the ethereum like had necessity to scale because of of the
congestion but it also the the the scaling products that came out were because of the culture
and the tools that were built on L1. So you have ICOs happen on Ethereum and there's utility
tokens which they promise utility, but no one had built the smart contract service area
to do that utility. It wasn't the tools weren't mature yet. People are promising you're going to be able to wrap your CryptoKitty and lend it on Maker
and earn yield, et cetera.
But none of that was real yet.
And then you had at the same time, Ethereum Foundation is saying, we're doing all this
research for scaling and it may be plasma, it may be sharding, it may be roll ups, it
may be optimistic roll ups, it may be whatever.
And it's all theory.
And then people started building on L1, the assets that people wanted. People built Uniswap, Aave,
Maker, Metamask, Infira, The Graph, et cetera. And then the first person who really won on the L2
side was a catcher MIT, which is Matic. And they said, you know what? We actually have the assets
people want and the applications on EVM.
Let's fork EVM one-to-one and build a centralized bridge and then incentivize
Aave, et cetera, to come over.
And then they started kind of that journey.
And then optimistic roll-ups became more mature.
Optimism's out, arbitrage's out.
And now we're kind of like at kind of the ZK layer.
So for us, like my thesis is it happens similarly.
Like the culture happens on chain.
The assets people actually want happen on chain.
Fees happen.
The tools that make it more efficient happen
until it gets a point of combustion.
And then there's actually like things you can move
to other layers.
And there's things that you can go into.
If you're just to say, like if OpCat went live today,
it would be like a couple of runes go over,
a couple of things go over, but you still have to to create that culture of things that you can go and trade.
And so I think it has to happen on L1 first, and that's been our sole focus.
I don't know.
I think I look at Uniswap, and Uniswap has an Unichain, and there's like $10 million of volume on there.
I'm like, I don't want to fucking go down that route you know like um i would rather have like oil swap be on udi's chain and that's the you know superlative decks on udi chain like that's that's kind of you know
um that's kind of how i think about it
cool that's all my questions okay so look bottom line bottom line decentralizes once again trying
to come on the ordinal show starting in the big block debates and i mean the reality here is like
we kind of tested the super high mempool with runes and like i didn't see everybody screaming
for big blocks like i think over time sustained extreme levels of activity which i think
if we build a you know hundreds of billions of dollar token economy on top of bitcoin eventually
trillions we will get there um but i don't think degenitalized we're having some huge you know
block size debate uh next month man but um i do think next year year one year okay okay okay i
mean look if we look let's see how you, let's see how big we can go.
I mean, I mean, I'm here for it, man.
Because if we, if we get to the point where we have like within a year discussions about block sizes, that means that, you know, the activity is crazy on Bitcoin.
So, you know, let's, let's, let's get the activity first and then let's see what happens.
I'm here for it. And look gonna get mev like for people who are saying oh mev on bitcoin is
bad your point's kind of irrelevant like there's literally no way that we don't eventually get mev
whether it comes next month next year in five years honestly it's almost irrelevant on the
scale of bitcoin it's a century- technology. Bitcoin has to answer these questions
eventually. My thought is, let's just do it. Let's do it. Let's get over it. Let's rip the
bandaid off. Let's maybe not let Bitcoin go to a quadrillion dollar asset and then try to figure
out the MEV thing. Maybe we figure it out a little bit earlier. And I think there are tons of
solutions and stuff. I'm not personally really not super worried about it from the user experience perspective.
Like Rebar Shield is a perfect example
of how if I run a deck,
I just plug the transactions
into Rebar Shield, problem solved.
It's really not rocket science.
But yeah, we'll have to answer these questions
and go through this decentralized.
You're right.
I think we had a...
Can I give you some credit?
You guys say you never have Alpha around here lately.
They're wrong, okay?
You guys pumped Cheeky B by shouting it out.
It is the second group now.
Man, I just fucking checked.
Man, I just checked the fucking art of this thing.
You guys had some issues.
It's a dick for a nose.
That's thousand percent.
I'm dead.
Yeah, I don't know.
Is 92 down there?
I think he is.
He might be here.
He's the artist, though.
That's all.
So make fun of him, not me.
I didn't draw it.
Okay.
Well, anybody else, guys, we've got Tagga here with us.
If you're listening, we've got about 244 people here listening.
Please feel free to come up. We're in the AMA section of this interview.
So please feel free, guys. This is your chance.
I don't want to hear people complaining. Tagga wasn't transparent about this.
No, you've got to come up and ask a question.
I know a question everyone wants to ask.
I got one more.
Guys, ask. Grill him. Grill him.
Go ahead. I've been talking too much.
Let him go.
What I know, most people want to know what's happening with the rest of the supply for
airheads.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a difficult question to answer because there's already a price.
I think it will just kind of depend on what the demand looks like.
We obviously don't want to do too late.
We don't want to do too early.
We're talking with a couple of the platforms right now that are interested in doing something um you know we're
we're listening so if there's any any good or bright ideas we're definitely thinking through this
actively dope dope okay so uh idm'd you this question earlier but i'm just going to read
it out again so uh when are we going to get some new assets like cheeky b getting experience inside oil wallet
yeah i think your answer was um maybe yeah pretty that's not gonna answer pretty pretty soon so i
mean we're gonna do the first uh diesel drip and explain more about what XP is, because I think more people that are new
need to know that first.
And then we're gonna kind of slowly put
some of the first assets that have the most kind of volume
and community exuberance.
And yeah, so we'll start doing that soon.
I think we're mostly kind of excited for the season two,
which is like outside of the wallet.
We obviously want more people to be able to participate
with other wallets as well.
So, yeah, very soon.
Tegan, can you say after well balance and XP,
is that going to be one to one, 10 to one, 100 to one?
What are we looking at?
For diesel?
I mean, whale pass have a V balance, and whale passes also earn you XP.
So you're going to get more diesel with a whale pass than you are just withโฆ
Let's say I just started today, and I have zero XP, which is kind of true.
How do I maximize my XP gain
over the next three weeks? What's the strat?
Yeah, I mean, I think
Well Pass gets you a free airhead. You start
earning daily rewards on your airhead.
So you got
Well Pass. So the Well Pass
balance, if there's 30,000
points on there, does that mean you get 30,000
diesel? Is that 1 to 1? Or is that
10 to 1? What's the ratio uh i wouldn't worry about that 30 000 would be a lot there's only 1.5
4 2 million diesel so 30 000 would be like more than the total circulating supply right now but
um yeah well we'll we'll let you know come on right. We need the alpha right now. I just gave you...
When's Stimmy, Taga?
When's Stimmy?
Very soon.
Very, very soon.
Okay.
So it's 10 to 1 or 100 to 1.
Whale passes will eat first.
Okay, so Whale Pass is most likely 10 to 1.
XP is 100 to 1.
You heard it first.
I like that math.
It's good math.
Simple math. This is, you know, the Ordinal Show. We like to do math on the Ordinal Show, guys. You heard it first. I like that math. It's good math. Simple math.
This is, you know, the Ordinal Show. We like to do math on the Ordinal Show, guys. You know how it goes around here.
I need an Excel spreadsheet
and chat GPT to do math, but...
Puppet's doing
math on the Ordinal Show. That's the
Alpha, guys. Taga, are you guys throwing a big
ass party in Vegas? And if not, why the fuck
not? I I mean we've
been so busy building building this stuff uh we will be there in Vegas maybe if we maybe
if we sell the rest of the airheads we'll throw something massive just tell Arthur's pull out
brother he's got the money he doesn't need to sell the airheads it's fine he caught the macro trade
he's got he's swimming in cash see he's good bro just hit him up that's why
he hasn't called you in a month he's letting you grind because he's i'll do i'll do him for you
if you need it as he's skiing and at the club man yeah see ping him say hey uh the people are
demanding a vegas trip uh party and you have to be there and uh et cetera et cetera well because
yeah he can come to the us now he got he got um he got off dude he can come he should be there
yeah he's got full he's got full range.
I'm sure he hasn't been
to Vegas in a while.
Okay, guys.
I will make the ask.
That's for sure.
That's all we want.
Just one question.
If he says no,
then that's all right.
Just let him know
he loses five respect points
from everybody.
Yeah, at least five.
But decentralized,
you need to pull up
in a room okay
in the in the what is it called why are you worried about my safety what is that
oh chicky b it's not my thing i don't i have like twenty dollars worth of it from the mint that's
it no you know what i'm saying like you like the art so much that you need to no i don't i don't
you need to do a costume party, man.
It's horrible art.
I would never in my life be dressed as Chicky Bean.
But also, they lied to me.
I was like, oh, you guys aren't doing anything?
They were like, no, we're not.
I was like, all right, I'm going to bed.
20 minutes later, they deploy this thing.
Yeah, you guys need to have one of those string costume beaks,
but it's like a little rubber dick that's the mad the new billy
glasses we need to actually talk about something serious on the show for a second i see a lot of
people laughing but this is not a joke so there is someone on stage right now who has done something
very very unethical and arguably criminal degentralized has posted a troll tweet on the Twitter app.
And I think we need to kick him out of the ordinal's ecosystem for this
egregious violation.
Hey, Tega, tell them about XP.
Leo, this, we can't do day six of this, Leo, please.
Yo, I'm not doing day six.
Y'all are the ones keep this going.
So I figured this stuff was over.
And then y'all keep doing this stuff.
You guys keep keeping this stuff coming back.
I mean, I agree, guys.
Let's put it to rest.
Let's put it to rest.
Wait, wait. Are you making fun of my tweet
from i'm making fun of your tweet that somehow caused a bunch of drama dude yes oh oh that one
yeah i do that all the time though every day remember i bought a taproot wizard last month
which i didn't buy uh i dumped five rude taproot wizards which i never bought i i mean this is
if you guys don't know how to use twitter i i hit my 15 year. You're not allowed to be fun.
You're not allowed to be funny.
I'm sorry.
I apologize.
I am dead inside.
I am dead inside.
You know, until Taga makes me a multi-billionaire or someone around this bitch, I'm dead inside.
All right.
All right.
Can we get back to an XP?
We've got Taga.
We've got Taga up here.
I'm sorry.
He's just trying to derail the space again.
If anybody wants to come up and ask tag a question or basically,
yeah,
he's here guys.
This is your opportunity.
So it's like,
if you hold an airhead,
get a daily.
If you move it,
it gets deleted.
If you buy a well pass,
you get the bonus.
If you sell it,
it transfers with the well pass. Yeah bonus if you sell it it transfers with the well pass
yeah if you sell it the the bonus transfers with the well pass well pass you can actually send to let's say you got a vault or a multi-sig or a different wallet that's not oil and you send it
back it counts the eligible assets in that wallet for your xp calculation and it has a b balance
wallet for your xp calculation um and it has a v balance um and so the whale pass both gets you a
lot of xp and a free airhead um which allows you to get daily xp and then what if we have no money
saga what if we're all poor because leo rugged us because jan rugged us because casey rugged us
because everyone rugged us what do we do how do we how do we win in this situation we have no money
to buy anything left.
Hey, Decentralize, can you tell me how I rugged you?
So on your Xverse thing in the app, in that wallet you own,
you didn't make the prices go up.
They went down.
I think that's a you problem.
No market making, no automatic volume, none of it.
Can we talk about how funny it was when jan had a very very minor
incident i've had probably like 12 incidents in my uh career as an nft uh crypto influencer
jan had a very minor incident last summer where somebody found his name was an advisor on the
decentralized i i just i like i sat on that space and watched john answer those questions as if he
had committed this egregious act i could i was literally on mute just laughing for an hour
straight i found that incredibly entertaining i'm glad i'm glad i got that off my chest though
um hopefully people aren't pissed at me for uh you've been picking fights a lot of buff people
above people lately um jan what are you been to these days 127 sorry what are you best these days
sorry man not much man like i i really lost motivation after meeting your co-founder i was
like it i i you know that guy puts on three plates and he just he just like lifts it like
it's a nothing and i'm like
you zach like i i don't have motivation to lift anymore um guys we're transitioning to our
new questions part of the the show no please please tag us save us tag how do we get the
experience if we're poor you can you put all my worthless assets on a list to give me experience
for please the the worthless assets are on the list.
The problem is that it has a multiplier based on the price.
Yeah, change the multipliers.
Invert them.
A thousand X multiplier.
Nah, it's too late.
Leo, I got a question.
So, dog, RuneStone is supposed to have a few airdrops.
Would you make an Alcane one of those airdrops from Roonstone?
Why do you think he said three airdrops?
Because he knows we're about to have 75 protocols.
He's just leaving it open.
So, look, there is no information about the second and third airdrop
other than what I've shared publicly.
So, there's no specific anything.
But it's also not happening right away.
So, you know, the market comes back. And there's a good moment for that airdrop.
It will happen somewhere and it will be very epic and it will go to Roomsdale holders.
He said a billion dollar dog, he'll do it.
That's what he said.
That is not what I said.
I swear you said that.
You said that.
I'm not making that up.
Find where I said that.
I said...
On Spaces, live. Is it recorded? It could be if you watch yourself. you said that i'm not making that up fine find where i said that i said on spaces live is it
recorded it could be if you watch yourself i might find it look billion dollar dog is definitely an
exciting moment that would be worth celebrating i agree um but you know not not promising it would
be exactly that moment the entire point of timing any nft mint airdrop anything is like you want
to time the market right it's very important i want you guys to make a lot of money um we
got zach coming up here sure zach has some uh questions for taga uh zach welcome to the ordinal
show uh how are you doing today six of the drama spaces so i'm here no i'm just i'm just kidding um uh tag i i had a couple
questions um number one when when amms uh like i saw subfrost uh which we'd be looking at and
when are we getting amms yeah amm is so we have, this is the alpha. We haven't really shared this, but we have,
the contracts are all built.
We've been testing them in OILnet,
which is our shared reg test for developers.
And we're moving that to Cignet.
We've got a full front end, a lot of other plans
with kind of other partners at the same time.
Gonna open up testing to
developers and then well pass holders first um and once we kind of go through the initial testing
and make sure it's safe and secure and we're we're gonna drop it we're we're racing for sure sweet
okay so that sounds can i have a little question to that uh I have some
FUD from some friends down below uh you know when actual programmability and not this uh
when soon programmability type going on when is the uh the wasm code gonna matter yeah I mean
programmability is happening now so all the assets you've seen being minted they're using is a free
mint smart contract to do that. It's not something
that was built within the protocol. Diesel is a smart contract that has deterministic rules.
The programmability smart contracts that we think of are like the AMM is going to be AMM plus
subfrost plus stable coins plus a couple other things. That's going to be amm plus sub frost plus stable coins plus a couple other things that's going to
be like the real like demonstration of programmability and that will also give you know
developers a lot more kind of things to look at to go and build things like lending etc so there's
no reflect token there's no staking token there's no none of that yet yeah so sub process is staking
token um I think somebody was building
like some ohm fork thing on there i don't know where they're at oh yeah can we just start with
the fee can we just start with something simple like a reflect token because because i mean like
that's the basic of ohm like you can't build ohm without the reflect token so on and so forth right
like you need you need all that and it's just like little pieces so like is there like i actually
actually it's funny
because i actually talked to i talked to zeus two weeks ago from home okay shared alkanes and he's
like he said if if alkanes was was available when he built ohm he would have built it on alkanes
and not zeus that's a name i haven't heard in a long time but but you've got the hairs on my arm standing up and excitement.
I need something to loop a number of times to achieve retirement again sometime.
Okay, Taga.
When you make the analogy of the diesel contract being a free contract,
would an appropriate comparison
and feel free to clarify or disagree would an appropriate comparison be like the pump fund
contract being like its own thing which helps spawn out tokens yeah so i mean so there's there's a
concept of like a factory contract and so that's what the freeman contract is deploy a factory
and then you don't have to redeploy that contract you can just you can just contract. And so that's what the Freemant contract is. Deploy a factory,
and then you don't have to redeploy that contract. You can just, you can just reuse it. And so it's much cheaper. So that's similar to work in an AMM. You have a factory contract that spawns LP pools,
and those are bonding curve that have, you know, the like uni V2 math um so there are people building launch pads right now um like pump fun type stuff
um but those are our you know standalone deterministic smart contracts that just just
run the code great because i where are all these smart contracts at github yeah so if you look if
you look at the if you look at the diesel like on alkanesane's build on learn, there's a GitHub link to the smart contract.
If you look also in Alkane's RS,
the Freeman contract is there as well.
Okay.
So, I mean, you know, we'll release
the smart contract for the AMM.
Any audits yet?
At some point.
No, we've had a ton of
peer review
from all the developers and also other meta
protocols have been building the space
and also some bounties.
But what about the Certik audit though?
That's the real one. That's the big boy.
We need the Certik.
No, no.
Certik will hack you. They'll get it wrong in the first place and then they'll figure it out later You don't need that. Certic.
Certic will hack you.
They'll get it wrong in the first place and then they'll figure it out later and then they'll just try to
hack it if it was wrong.
Well,
that agreed.
I have another
question.
Am I understanding it right that we're going to
be able to
in some way
wrap
existing runes and then trade them
on AMMs?
Yeah.
My pops and my gizmos and my dogs.
There's a couple ways you can do that.
Someone could build
a PSPT product
where you can swap them back and forth.
Someone could build a subfrost. Someone could build a, like Subfrost,
someone could like take the Subfrost contracts
and make it enable more assets than just Bitcoin,
uses like a Frost, a kind of multi-sig,
coordinated multi-sig that uses the WASM runtime
and they could add other assets and you could do that.
So, you know, people should jump in
and start building this stuff.
We can't, I can't.
Okay.
What's your take on toxicity in the space?
Oh God, shut up.
I'm just kidding.
Shut the fuck up, dude.
Tag it, don't answer that.
Let's have a real question.
I have another real question.
Alpkins is the happiest place on Bitcoin.
It's the balloon ride out.
I have another pragmatic question.
The last drop right at NOM is what I hear.
Are there any splitting tools?
Say I buy some packs of something on ID Club and then like he combines them into like one big pack
now like does anybody know if like is there a splitting tool to like split them back up for sale
or do i like just send them to myself over and over again or yeah anybody actually with with
without games you don't really need to pre-split um it just will put it on either
the same out point or a different out point um if you if you have the protostone you know correctly
packed when you're transferring them um so oh that would just went way over my head i'm sorry uh
i did so the problem is giving people lots of 25 mil right so they're all and that's what he's
talking about so he has to
split them out manually by like a rune by sending it to himself correct well yeah like right like
if I buy like let's say I buy four packs of 25 mil uh on ID club I think unless maybe I'm wrong
does it like pack them into a new pack of 100 mil yeah I mean or is it SPT's you still kind
of run into a similar problem but but in the AMM, you actually
won't run into that problem.
You'll just be able to trade it.
How many...
How many...
Shut up,
Stephen! Doesn't it run into the
scenario of people just like,
at least for right now, trading on
ID Club, people just creating
bigger and bigger packs and then
like and then like they're just gonna be listing these mondo mondo packs yeah how do we split them
back up they need to make that easy fast otherwise people will brick every floor impossible yeah i
mean you you want to be careful because it's different than a rune where a rune if you if
you send it without a runestone it will just go to out point zero whereas with a with an alkane you you need you need to pack
with a proto stone when you send it um which means you can't use unisat it means yeah that's the
other thing the whole remember the whole like cenotaph creation thing the runes protocol yes
this basically if you i i want to be very yeah we're very cautious you want to be really careful
as during this early early stage uh that you don't burn all your shit and uh so be very cautious
uh i do think katagra though with alkanes because it is programmable on the indexer side
you can kind of do whatever you want you can like throw those into some other smart contract or something
so like that does kind of solve that issue long term it does uh how heavy are the transactions
like we know cat transactions are insanely heavy right like so how are you guys like getting 5 000
transactions a block right now average or what's that look like for you guys uh I don't I don't
know the exact numbers but
there are you know the transactions are very very compact and deploying are also compact too because
it's a gzip to awesome file and it uses rust and like the the metadata for these assets are really
small right it's like two two zero two two twenty four um so you get a lot more efficiencies than like than using cat um and you don't have the you know
some of the other issues you don't have a social consensus argument for seven years either okay uh
last question last question I swear um what's up with the ID system why is there like a whole bunch
of missing numbers on the yeah so um the somebody created the first freement contract and it it got hacked oh and so the
fair so the first uh and it was mostly just tokens we just like we're deploying as like
tests to mainnet and somebody found out the reserve number of that contract and that's how
methane actually was first minted and then um and then they built a frequent contract um that did the kind of
whole community audited and we helped he'll help them build and that's the one that everyone's
using so like assets like 2.2 to 2.15 I think those all got those all got borked those all
got bricked so they're never going to come into supply oh they're never gonna count right right so what's number one token first token uh so two zero is
diesel yep two one was alka but that's one of the ones that got bricked um there's no tokens
that are gonna like come out of nowhere in a week talking about we had just activated uh okay it's
not like uh it's not like smart contract uh approval right like where you like yeah it's
it would be impossible okay cool methane is the first like i just want to make sure that 12 doesn't show up in a week and
we're like well that's now the one right right right okay yeah methane i mean methane was was
was deployed on this bricked contract and uh then then uh mint alkan airdropped it to the people that minted it.
And then they redeployed it.
Okay.
Oh, interesting.
I didn't know this.
That's kind of cool.
That's weird.
That's probably a reason why Asia got really excited about it and minted it day one.
It's because a lot of them tried to mint the first one.
Then they were really upset.
They were saying that we're going to kill everyone's mother and um they tried to pull uh rock toshi huh um okay so my last question is so if the two is is oil is the one runes like is the unspoken one runes and then
three would be whoever forks uh your guys are or alkanes i mean so two is alkanes three would be
whoever makes the next meta protocol and one would be runes or no
actually actually like two zeros is for tokens like deploying uh kind of other oh great there's
like three n four n five n six n so they're they're for kind of different okay okay okay
protocol yeah makes sense so there's no like uh like you can't number runes into your guys's
it's like because one of the things that i think
we're running into the problem of is like coin market cap everything's just listed there and
that's what people are used to right but then we have these idiots in our space that are like let's
not list prc20 on the data pages let's not list runes on the data pages because we we are like
you guys just need to stop this bro i want a website i want to see all the market caps next
to each other i want to be able to buy the goddamn thing from a fucking single
click, and we need to just move on with this shit, all right?
Because, like, I thought we were getting to that with your numbers.
We're too early. No, we're not.
I'm fucking getting old here.
We're too early.
Hey, gentlemen, if you missed the spreadsheet trading phase,
the Asians got that phase.
You can get the shit
patched together phase, which is also
still pretty early.
It's like February 20th. No, it's more like March 23 in Ordinals cycle right now.
You can get the productive assets,
and then you can stake the assets that you got now.
So when can we get Jack Lewd on Alkanes?
That's the question.
You're going to get a vibe-coded Ordinals wallet next phase
for about a month or two.
And then, I don't know, next.
Dude, vibe-coding was not a thing in uh
first first year of ordinal so uh bullish that is true that is true i actually i i this is perfect
because i vibe coded over a weekend an ai agent using the oil sdkkane's index, and a framework called Dream Maker or something.
And I made a bootleg browser version of it where I could turn the agent on and off.
And it started deploying tokens, it started minting all the tokens that were out there,
finding them, it's balance aware, everything.
So because we built the full stack and it's open, it's the first thing on Bitcoin where
you can actually have a true agent that holds its own balance and is aware of it and can deploy contracts and do stuff.
Is there any like integrations you can do with like an Oracle or something to get like EVM integration going quickly?
Or what's your guys' take on EVM integration?
Because this is what everyone's going to want.
They want to still have an argument about do we use this or do we send all everybody to solana
and call it bitcoin uh what do you mean by evm like how do you how do we bridge them back into
alkanes versus like just buy bitcoin and buy into everything like they need to be able to
take and wrap their solana's coin on alkanes at some point right yeah i mean like a lot of
the stable coins that are
building on it you'll be able to send stable coins from like arbitrum and then then then like those
that that works better on like the but there's not like pegging availability yet until like chain link
comes in or what yeah i mean someone can go build that chain link actually uh one of the early first
like five members of chain link is a whale pass holder and has an airhead honorary.
And so they're kind of just like, whenever you're ready, let's do it.
Okay, cool. Perfect.
Lord, what's up?
BJBJ.
Yeah, these puppets asked every question I had on alkanes, but Jesus Christ.
But I was actually wondering about Orbinots specifically the project if you've heard of it and just orbitals in general if you
could like tldr beyond that shit yeah so tldr is like you someone you can build other token standards
in alkanes and then they're programmable with every other token or app and so uh somebody's been working on nft standard called orbitals it's it's still super
early um i think the order knots are guys that have been in the like alkanes airheads community
for a while and so they are kind of wanting to launch the first one but i think uh so you can
do generative art you can do you can build themative art, you can build them into smart contracts,
you can build a smart contract from a marketplace perspective
where you can do bids, auctions,
things that you can do on like OpenSea or Blur.
So that's what's kind of really cool about orbitals
is kind of what they're calling it.
But it's still pretty early
if there's people interested in doing that or launching collections. Like i think there's you know that would kind of push a lot of
the people that are building the standard could you uh could you like bridge uh so you had like
generative art uh collection on orbitals that was like sitting there uh could you bridge that
to orbitals at all or would you have to like just redo it yeah i mean you you probably have you
probably have to redo it i mean you could also be like you hold the ordinal and then you can mint the
new generative version of it or the a more expressive version of it we're thinking about
doing that um with airheads where like you actually have like a generative thing that
based up the balances of your alkanes it gets skinnier fatter and it's all on chain so
we're thinking about doing stuff like that but i think like ordinals is sick airheads is always
going to live on ordinals but it just gives kind of a lot of tools for new new projects to both
grow and continue and also you've seen new experimentation on the kind of the art side
seeing new experimentation on the kind of the art side so excited to see people do more
so excited to see people do more
but that's all these puppets asked all my other questions but ggs
uh congrats on china uh cheeky beat of the moon
awesome hell yeah tag i appreciate you hanging out with us tonight man you answered a ton of
questions and i feel like i personally just much better understand this ecosystem.
And hopefully people listening also understand it.
Jan, I hope the same experience for you.
Because quite frankly, I wasn't super knowledgeable coming into this.
I did a little bit of research last night.
So I wasn't just totally talking out of my ass.
But you explained it well, man.
And yeah, very much looking forward to having you back on in like a couple of months or
something after some of this has gotten out of the spreadsheet and vibe code phase for
the apps and stuff and tokens.
And maybe it's a little bit more mature on that side.
And we can maybe talk more about the kind of actually building around it type stuff
rather than just the technical kind of implementation of the actual protocol.
So this has been dope.
Appreciate you, dude.
Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.
It was fun. I got one more question.
Tega, what's up with the honeypots? Is that
going to happen over here, too? Do I got to worry? Do we need
honeypot checkers in the whole nine yards? Or, like,
where are we going to end up here? Yeah, I mean,
I'm sure people will start to
build a bunch of that stuff around it
as it gets more mature.
Can I DM you for a refund
if I get rugged on the first tomb fork on
Alcance? Yeah, I'll give you for a refund if i get rugged on the first tomb fork on alkanes yeah
i'll give you a full refund awesome thanks can we get spf out of jail to use uh we need him to make
a like three hypothicated ponzi scheme to really send us to the moon that would like me that's no
one yeah i'll dm him let's let's get him a let's get him an m3 laptop in jail let's see what he can do i hear doug kwan looks he's looking for a new uh you know stable coin protocol to home amazing guys
had to ruin your space leo sorry no good stuff good stuff um yeah guys look uh we can quickly
do a segment just talking about runes i I think Bitcoin has been ripping. Runes have been ripping.
We've got a nice little, you know, rise to 100K Bitcoin potentially happening here.
I think the general sentiment is that, you know, there was some rough months there, basically, of everything trending down.
And the general sentiment is that we bottomed and we're coming up again.
You know, TBD, if Trump destroys that with some tariffing or something. But it seems like we're going to go to all time ice for Bitcoin.
That's the general feel. And I think a lot of people are feeling good about altcoins.
The altcoin market has taken a beating for like five months. And yeah, basically, like hopefully,
you know, ruins ordinals, you know, with Bitcoin going up, even if you like check Magic Eden,
and the price hasn't changed. Well, technically, the US dollar price has Bitcoin going up, even if you like check magic Eden and the price hasn't changed, well, technically the U.S. dollar price has been going up because Bitcoin's been doing pretty well.
And we've also seen runes outperforming Bitcoin quite a bit, actually.
Many of the top runes are up, you know, 30, 40, 50, 60 percent in the past week.
And yeah, I don't know if anybody has thoughts on this, but Bitcoin looks like it's got a little momentum
that's pulling the entire market with it.
I don't have too many insights on why Bitcoin's going up.
Other than maybe the tariff stuff,
people are a little less freaked out about that,
but definitely gonna be very beneficial
to our ecosystem if Bitcoin hits an all-time high again
and we're already starting to see that.
So good times ahead, hopefully, guys. I'm excited for exciting ordinals, mints,
and basically just lots of excitement and newcomers to the space again. It's been a year of,
you know, it's been an interesting year, right? I'm ready to grow this space, you know, 10X,
really, really do what we all came here to do
and build an economy on top of Bitcoin.
Taggit here is doing his part.
Jan's doing his part.
Decentralized, I guess, is doing his part.
Shin and Charlie are doing their parts.
Like, you know, the people who are here right now are the real deal.
Like the people who showed up for the past year you don't really
have to question like their loyalty to the space at this point it's like if you showed up for the
past year you're probably believing in this stuff for the long term and i'm super excited to see what
we can do together it's been a pretty brutal year and i'm just super super pumped hopefully y'all
don't show up to the ordinal show on monday and we're back to like 70k or something um but yeah look bitcoin's bitcoin's going up again the good time let the
good times roll um anybody have any final thoughts or things to discuss before we wrap this yeah i
yeah i appreciate you saying i'm loyal to the space but in reality i was dropped on my head as
a child and in that flash of me being dropped on
my head i saw a picture of a bitcoin and so i forever imprinted upon it and uh i'm actually
just uh deranged and obsessed with bitcoin which is uh why i'm still here and i'll ride the to zero
if it kills me and i just want to add uh just a quick note to relate to all the toxicity jokes uh if we weren't
toxic we would be using atomicals right now instead of alkanes if you don't get the joke
i don't know what to tell you i'm sorry but i'm not sorry
awesome well guys i think that's our show yon do you have any final words for our listeners before we hop off all right
on that note yon do you want to say anything quickly yeah i was just saying that to your
point that the runes are up 30 you know and stuff like it's not enough guys okay let's do better
i agree let's turn the percents into x's and then we can celebrate yon do you have any
final nutrition or fitness tips for our listeners today?
No, not really. Just stay healthy, guys, and go to the gym today. That's what you should do.
All right. Go to the gym, guys. We will see you all on Monday. Everybody have a great rest of
your week and weekend. And yeah, hopefully, you know, maybe with a little luck, Bitcoin might
actually be at all time highs on Monday. I'm not saying it will, but the trajectory is pretty good.
So we'll see what happens, guys. I'll see y'all in a few days. Peace. Thanks, Taga. Bye.
With the husband song. Okay, just kidding.
