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All Roads Lead to Polygon: Episode 15 - Security 🔒
Recorded: June 23, 2023 Duration: 3:04:54Space Recording
Full Transcription
Good morning,
powerful purple people.
Hope everyone's doing well this morning.
Excited for another great topic.
We're going to be talking security today.
Something we don't always want to have to think about, but it's really important in this industry.
Because every time we let our guard down, there's another hack or some crazy thing goes down.
So we're going to be talking a lot about different strategies here today to keep yourself safe.
We'll start us off with some music.
This is a cool song.
I'd heard it before.
But then this week, I don't know why.
I heard it again and it spoke to me.
And I've listened to it several times this week.
So I like this one.
Here you go, guys.
Welcome.
It was just two lovelies.
Sitting in the car.
Lashin' in the blond.
And then the blonde, falling for each other
Pink and orange skies, but less you for child
There's no Donald Glover, this girl from my mother
Like where you at tonight, got no alibi
I was all alone with the love of my life
She's got glitter for skin, my radiant baby in the night
I don't need no light to see you shine
She's got glitter for skin, my radiant baby in the night
She's got glitter for skin, my radiant baby in the night
Beat up on the dash, driving nowhere fast, burning through the sun
Radio on blast, make the moment last, she got solar power
Minutes feel like hours, she knew she was the baddest
Can you even imagine falling like I did for the love of my life
She's got glow on her face, her glorious look in her eyes
My angel of light, I was all alone with the love of my life
She's got glitter for skin, my radiant baby in the night
I don't need no light to see you shine
Oh, my jour, she's got glitter for skin, my radiant baby in the night
Oh, my God, my смерть of my heart
Share it in your groups and get the word out.
We appreciate it a lot.
Thanks, guys.
Got you some Foo Fighters.
I'm waiting here for you
You'll never go
To the night
I'll throw myself into the room
Out of the red
Out of the ketchup
Come down
And waste away with me
Tell me
So I hope
You wanted it to be
I'll throw my head
Out of the ketchup
And I wonder
When I think it was on with you
If anything could ever be this good forever
If anything could ever be this good again
The only thing I'll ever ask is you
You've got a promise not to stop when I say
When she says
Breathe out
So I can breathe you in
Hold you in
And now
I know
I know you've always been here
How do you get
How do you get
How do you get
The same
And I wonder
When I feel alone with you
Everything could ever feel this good forever
And if anything could ever be this good again
The only thing I'll ever ask is you
You've got a promise not to stop when I say
You and she say
You've got a promise not to stop when I say
You're the only thing she does
I wonder if everything can ever feel this way forever.
Everything can ever be this good again.
I don't think I'll ever ask you to.
I promise not to stop when I stay away.
I don't think I'll ever ask you to.
I don't think I'll ever ask you to.
I hope everyone's also getting their feet warmed up for their walk of the week.
If you don't walk or go to the gym all week, I hope at least on all roads lead to polygon spaces, you guys get up and get some walking time in.
All right.
So today we're talking security.
I'm a little bummed out.
I don't have my co-host Aztec today, but we've got some other co-hosts and speakers who will help keep this fun and exciting for you guys.
I think we've got Jack on, yeah?
Yeah, that's right.
I'm in.
Hello.
Jack the Ripper.
Or maybe we'll think of another one for you.
But that's a hell of a dark spot.
And I see we have Michael as a speaker.
I'm sure he'll keep things nice and exciting with us today.
What's up, everyone?
Let's go.
How you doing, DapRadar?
And I don't know who's hosting from the Polygon account or if they'll be speaking or not.
But if they want to jump in at any time, they can say hello.
I think they might just be hosting for the Algo, but we'll see.
Okay.
Darren is also here hosting from the Quickswap account.
Everybody loves Darren, the panda, the unofficial mascot of Polygon and Quickswap at this point.
The pan dragon.
I mean, I think at this point, the dragon is the unofficial mascot and we're actually all pandas.
We're pandas and dragons are the mascots.
Yeah, yeah.
Or everyone gets a black eye and then we're pandas either way.
A black guy?
A black eye.
I knew I was just messing with you.
Cool.
Everyone gets a black eye.
What a way to start, guys.
We've got Jack the Ripper and everyone's getting black eyes.
Yeah.
Great.
Okay.
So, Darren, do you have anything to say about our speakers?
Or do we?
Oh, wow.
Everybody.
I don't know if I got glitched or what, but it only showed like three speakers and now it shows like 12.
So, I don't know if they all joined at once or I was just Twitter spaced out.
We need a phrase for that.
What is it?
We need something that's like called, oh, you got spaced or you got Twitter spaced.
You know, it's just like to acknowledge that Twitter space just never works.
What about spacexed because obviously Elon and then also like, you know, xed is like crossed out.
You got spacexed out.
Yeah.
Well, we'll keep working on it.
We'll find one.
I think we're starting out with Michael today.
I think he has a couple of calls.
So, he needed to go on a bit early.
So, cool.
Michael.
Hey, what's up?
What's up, man?
How are you doing?
Happy Friday.
Yeah, guys.
Happy Friday, guys.
Thank you very much, sir, for bringing me onto the stage.
And I have some interesting things to share for today's session, especially because it's about security.
And security sounds so boring, but actually, and I want to bring a spin to this to make it more exciting for everyone.
So, I want to talk today about, and not just me talking, but a discussion with you guys, right?
I want to talk about how to bring the next billion users onto the space, onto, well, the crypto space or Web3 space.
And I believe that in order to do that, we need to talk about getting rid of private keys, okay?
And of these seed phrases and all this crap because people are too afraid and they constantly lose them and, you know, that's pretty bad.
Only good thing about losing private keys or seed phrases is that this money is locked up and can't move anymore.
But everything else is bad about it, okay?
And also, not having to pay gas fees.
And both of those can be achieved by a new development called account abstraction, which is also has security aspects to it.
But if I would talk about the security aspects, it would be way more boring than if I tell you that this is actually going to bring the next one billion people to Web3.
That's why this has been on it.
And then I would like to also talk about if you should still use Ledger or not.
And basically, should you actually use any hardware wallet that requires you to write down your private keys?
I think, well, I'm not telling you what I think.
We're going to have a discussion, okay?
So should you use any private wallet that requires you to write down your private keys?
Is that a good idea or not?
If you connect to what I said before, you might know the answer.
And also, the last thing I want to say, what the hell is happening with Polygon, man?
Like, guys are launching crazy stuff all the time.
Now I'm hearing about Polygon 2.0.
Maybe we can also chat about what that is about.
How does this sound, these three things?
Sounds great, man.
All right.
So let's start with account abstraction.
Who has any idea what this is?
I do.
Let's go.
Can you, like, give a summary?
Yeah, sorry.
Maybe I'll just introduce myself really quick for context.
My name is Jeff Krantz.
I'm the founder of a company called Fire.
Fire is a Chrome extension that shows you a preview of what you're about to sign before you sign the transaction.
Today, we're protecting about 100,000 wallets and over a billion dollars in assets.
Today, you use Fire with MetaMask or Coinbase, whatever wallet you're comfortable with.
But we're actually currently working on upgrading Fire to be an account abstracted wallet.
So that's why I thought it'd be relevant to jump in here.
And why that's really important is our mission is to make Web3 safer by making it simple.
Like, exactly like you were saying, Michael.
We need to get rid of seed phrases.
We need to get rid of gas.
We need to make onboarding into a wallet so much easier.
And at Fire, we see it, you know, really fitting well into our product because we want to make Web3 simple.
And when a user has to write down their seed phrase and go KYC to get some gas money to even be able to mint a free NFT, it's just untenable.
So we're really excited about account abstraction from that perspective.
Like, can you explain it non-technical?
How does it work and make it better than is today?
Yep, exactly.
So I think the quickest way to put it in my favorite kind of summary is at least on EVM chains, we're accomplishing account abstraction via ERC 4337.
And what that means is basically we're using smart contracts as the wallet instead of, you know, your seed phrase.
So your funds are stored on a smart contract instead of on your 12 words.
This is kind of like a really dumbed down version of the explanation, but I think it works really well.
And so the way the analogy I kind of use here is you could think of your 12 word seed phrase as your wallet with or your billfold with actual bills inside of it.
If you lose that wallet, your money's gone, right?
Versus with account abstraction, you can think of your smart contract wallet more like an account where, you know, even if you lose your debit card,
you could go get a new debit card and still have access to your account, right?
And then what's really powerful about it is because it's a smart contract, we as developers can write smart contract code to make the wallet more secure.
So an example of this might be, you know, something we're excited about is my friend lost his board ape to a phishing scam when it was worth about a half a million bucks.
We're excited about this idea of what if we could write smart contract code that said something like,
don't transfer my board ape for the next six months under any circumstances, or don't transfer my board ape unless, you know,
three of my hardware wallets sign a transaction saying transfer my board ape, right?
So these are some of the things that we're excited about with account abstraction.
Very nice.
Actually, and I want to give, it's a good explanation, I think.
It's still very high level, which is good.
So nobody could, you know, it feels like it's too technical.
But I want to also add something to this so that it makes it even more, I guess, interesting.
You know that there are these externally owned accounts.
I mean, you guys, basically that's what you have when you have your normal wallets, like MetaMask,
GoodTrust wallet, or God knows which one.
But then there are also contract accounts, like smart contracts, right?
And the big massive difference between those two is that the externally owned accounts, well, your wallets,
they can initiate transactions.
Whereas a smart contract cannot initiate any transaction whatsoever unless you tell them to do that.
Now, that's an important distinction.
And that's why also you might have noticed that it's quite a pain in the ass to have like a automatically paid monthly subscription that you pay in crypto.
So that's almost impossible to do without using complex technology because a smart contract can just not trigger anything unless it is triggered by your wallet.
Now, with account abstraction and with other things, you can actually have automations in there as well.
When you can allow things to happen automatically, which is not yet there, but it's coming.
It's a different EIP, I believe.
I'm not sure exactly which one, but this is coming to the space.
And basically, we are rebuilding what we can already do now with Paytel and all this crap, but obviously in a decentralized universe, right?
So we kind of left behind a few convenience features in the space.
And not just security is an issue because you have to write down your seed phrase, but also convenience is not given.
So you have to now, as a space, we need to come up with convenience while not compromising on security, which is obviously very challenging, but it is possible.
And that's what we are here for, right?
So I wanted to bring this notion in there because with account abstraction and future EIPs of that, you will be able to also automate things.
And you will be able to, let's say, you can be a consumer of a game.
You can play a game or you can use a deck or whatever, and they can subsidize your gas fees by having the same technology that I mentioned before.
It can be done through a smart contract that says, okay, we're going to take that cost and we're going to pay it for that.
It can be just for a couple of transactions or it can be forever or it can be whatever, right?
So that can be developed, but the important is if you want people to start using your product or if you want to have a better experience, you don't want to pay gas fees.
Like, what the hell, right?
Like, you don't care about that.
You just want to have the experience and that's it.
And this, if you think about it, this will make these two things, right?
These three things, actually.
No private keys that you have to store, and I will talk about this as well later.
No gas fees and automating payments.
Holy shit, right?
I think this opens up a lot of use cases and also makes it way more convenient for people to use.
Now, having said that, who else want to chime in?
Who got triggered by what I just said and wants to add something?
Let's go.
I would say that some of those things you mentioned, like a smart contract being able to sign on your behalf,
I mean, these are, you know, obviously right away some red flags start popping up.
Could this open up more attack vectors?
I'm sure it can.
And there's lots of things that we do that open up attack vectors, but in the end are net positive.
And then the industry just strengthens up its kind of security around those things.
And then they get battle tested, and then they're better.
So, like an example is when Vitalik wanted to make, you know, Turing complete, like smart contract EVM,
a lot of Bitcoiners said, that's crazy.
It'll open up a ton of attack vectors.
It's going to get hacked.
Stuff's going to get broken.
Way too much stuff's going to happen.
And Bitcoiners came to the conclusion that when it comes to their money, they don't want to open up attack vectors,
which I think is a reasonable argument.
And I think maybe they went the right way, even though Ethereum actually made a lot of sense.
The smart contracts made a lot of sense.
And they were right.
It did open up lots of, you know, attack vectors.
But we figured things out over time.
Like, there's tons and tons and tons of hacks and breaks and problems with, like, a Turing complete smart contract language.
But it also opened up a world of, you know, things that you could do now.
And then we just get kind of used to those attack vectors, and we battle hard and over them.
So, I think some of these things you mentioned sound like, yeah, these are going to open up some risks.
And, you know, maybe it's not good for us to tell people, hey, it's okay, you could trust a third-party service to manage your private key or, you know, a hash of your private key or a piece of a hash of a private key or whatever.
But I do think that having that flexibility is good for the industry, for us to try new things.
And I think there are people who don't want to do the whole write your seed phrase down.
So, I think it's worth exploring, at least.
Yeah, and I mean, I think you're completely correct.
I mean, we saw already a massive amount of hacks and people, you know, losing their stuff.
But that's just because the technology is, yeah, well, it makes it too easy, okay, to make these mistakes.
And, yeah, that's why we're talking about these developments.
Because with the current state of affairs, we're not going to adopt, you know, my father or my mother into the system.
And I see your hand up, by the way.
But imagine one other thing that even if you can put your funds into a smart contract, it's not really giving it to a third party.
I'm not sure if you meant that or not, but I just want to tackle that.
Because it's actually you can deploy your own such smart contract that is battle-tested already.
And you deploy that and you put your funds in your own version of the same code, right?
It's just yours.
And instead of having it in your wallet, you have it in your smart contract.
And then it's way more safe.
And actually, it's kind of a new narrative that's coming out.
You can see that on YouTube as well everywhere.
People explaining how you can actually keep your funds, not even in a hardware wallet, but in a smart contract.
And that's quite interesting.
It's less convenient, I would say, at least right now.
But it's very secure, right?
So you might have seen that already with Gnostic Safe, for example.
And, yeah, and that's where it's going.
Yeah.
So let's have – what was your name?
Six, four, five, seven.
Yeah, this is Jeff.
I thought I'd just throw one more quick thing on the topic of, like, giving your – you know, giving access to a third party or whatever.
One more thing to mention on account abstraction that's really cool is you can actually change the signer over time.
And what gets me excited about this from a UX perspective is, you know, maybe a brand-new user who just wants to mint a free NFT,
maybe it's okay for them to use a, you know, centralized signing service because they're just going to be claiming free NFTs for a little bit.
And then maybe when they've got some value in their account, you know, $10, $50, whatever it means to them,
what they can actually do with the smart contract is cut off that signer that's a centralized signer
and maybe move, you know, to their own signer or some sort of, like, MPC solution where it requires multiple signers,
maybe one of them they control.
And then when their balance, you know, increases even more, you know, whatever it is to them, $1,000, something like that, over that,
maybe they go out and they buy a hardware wallet at that point.
I just think that's a really interesting way to kind of do a soft onboarding process for users
and allow them to kind of upgrade their security over time as it becomes necessary.
That is so cool.
I really like that.
That concept of not, and you don't have to start a new account, you just upgrade your current account
to have a better security model.
I mean, I always encourage people to do that with their security kind of schema in general with crypto,
but this sounds like a more convenient way to do it than what I tell people, which is like, you know,
you start, say, with a ledger and then over time you do much more advanced things, but you got to start
a new, you know, wallet each time you do that.
This is kind of cool.
You can keep your wallet and just upgrade to a more advanced signature scheme.
Yeah, so I want to...
And that's with account abstractions, 64570.
Yeah, exactly.
So that's account abstraction.
Really what account abstraction is, is abstracting the account away from the signer.
So that's exactly what it's doing is, you know, even though you change the signer, your account
doesn't change, your wallet doesn't change.
You don't need to transfer all of your funds over and, you know, maybe unwind all your DeFi
positions and then transfer the ETH and then wind them back up in a new account.
You just swap out the signer and you've got the same account and you're more secure.
So it's kind of like how when you, like, if you have a vesting smart contract and you
change the beneficiary.
Yeah, exactly.
And then there's a lot more complex things you could do.
You could add multiple signers that have different amounts of spending limits.
You know, maybe someone can spend $10 in your account a month, something like that.
Or maybe it's a game.
You want to be able to, you know, buy an item from the merchant or whatever, and you don't
want to have to pop out to your wallet in the game, maybe you can just debit right from
you because their keys are set up to be able to spend a little bit of money from your account
on some basis.
So I think really that's the most exciting part about account abstraction for me.
And it always tends to kind of get lost in the conversation somehow, but thought it was
important to add that in.
We've got a bunch of hands up.
So guys, if you want to raise your hand, that works.
But also if you want to just jump in, if you feel like you fit into what whatever was being
said, just feel free to jump in.
So any of you guys, hands up.
Go ahead, jump in.
Yeah, Rocky.
So I'd love to jump in.
So first, hey, everyone.
Happy Friday.
And I can totally relate to what you said here about account abstraction.
Basically, you know, it's a funny name for a relatively simple concept like verification
layer before each transaction that allows you to implement limits, implement social recovery,
pay gas in any tokens and more.
But I want to take and to tap into what Michael mentioned, that if you want to bring the next
billion users, so account abstraction is like it's just one thing on our way, which will
improve user experience and security.
But what's happening into the protocols that you're interacting with, right?
These protocols, which are based on smart contracts, are basically not protected at all.
And we see each and every day and we are at Hexagate, like this is what we're doing.
We are helping protocols to protect their communities, to protect their users, to protect themselves
against fund loss, which is caused by cyber exports.
And this cyber and financial experts, of course, they can target any smart contract.
And no matter if you have like the best wallet out there, which is going to be based on account
obstruction, your funds are associated or locked in a smart contract or a protocol, which is now hacked.
So what will happen?
And this is what we're doing at Hexagate.
And I'd love to discuss here in this space about how protocols should get more protection
beyond just getting an audit.
Audit is a good thing, but it's only something that you do in a specific point of time.
You have a bunch of people that go through your code that try to find vulnerabilities or bugs,
but it is not like a bulletproof kind of concept.
And you need to add on top of that a way to actually detect and protect against experts.
So I'd love to hear from the people here in the space, what do you do today to make sure
that your smart contracts are protected?
As a user, what do you do to make sure that the protocol that you're interacting with
is taking the best practices into making sure that your funds are protected?
So I'd love to open the discussion for this topic.
I would also like to add a bit about the security and account obstruction.
Firstly, I agree with all said so far.
And about the audits also, so let's firstly put that the security is not a state, it's
a process.
So you can't say that I am secure because I did this.
You're secure because you have the correct process onboarded and you have the security
pipeline.
And this is like, you always do what it comes to the security.
And about the account obstruction is 100% as one of the best ways to onboard new people.
And we need to onboard new people.
It will most likely bring up with some new attack surfaces.
But as I also said about like the Turing completeness of the solidity.
Yes, we have some hacks, but we got to manage that.
And that's not a reason for not doing it.
Yeah.
And one more thing that I want to add about the account obstruction and that I like is
that it actually addresses some of the physical security issues, actually, which were quite
a consideration when we had all this cold wallet storage thing that the only way to really
own your money was having a ledger or a MetaMask or any kind of other cold storage wallets.
And the example given before, let's say that you cannot transfer your board-date NFTs for
half a year, that goes in a very good complement to the physical security also.
Yeah, and I think I also have something to add.
Can everyone hear me okay?
Yep.
Nice.
Yeah.
GM, everyone.
I'm Marcus, or ParityBit, from Wittnet, Multichain Oracle, also live on Polygon.
Just, yeah, I find account abstraction very interesting.
I think it's still important to think about the decentralization aspect and the permissionless
aspect.
So, are people self-custody, right?
Or do they use a third party for that?
If there is a master key that is still used, that still needs to be managed.
And like was mentioned before on the security concerns that have been explored by the Bitcoin
community, BIP44, which is like the wallet layout that has like the different paths and
everything, which I also believe Ethereum uses, but is managed by the wallet software that
we could just have, or we need more education, better UX, obviously.
Then I just wanted to add the point about education around self-custody and what it means to be
fully decentralized and permissionless without having a third party manage your keys for
you, right?
Sure, it could be managed through a smart contract or through some UX or something like that.
That's the point I wanted to add.
Hey, I have a question about that.
Can you, do you have best practices we can share with the audience that they can use?
Sure.
With the account abstraction, BIP44 outlines like the change address and also like the
coin path, which Ethereum uses, like a lot of different coins use that BIP there.
And there's the idea of a change address and sending coins to a change address.
Now, this is specific with Bitcoin, since they have like a UTXO structure for tracking transactions
versus like a nonce or something like that, that Ethereum uses.
So typically in Ethereum, everyone uses the same account, right?
For everything.
Where with the wallet abstraction, you're generating a new address for every transaction.
So sure, you could still track it, but it could be a little bit more difficult or it adds some
privacy.
And when we're thinking about like adding privacy, like I know, like maybe as you mentioned,
EIP4337, the account abstraction has the thing in there about adding more privacy.
Oh, wow, I didn't know that.
That's really cool.
That's like Bitcoin, kind of like UTXO style, where every transaction you use a new address
typically.
No, I'm not sure if EIP4337 actually does that with the account abstraction, but I do remember
reading something about them adding in like added privacy.
But still, ultimately, you would have like a master key, right, that you're signing or
that is permitted to submit transactions to that contract, right?
Hi, guys.
If I can chip in here, I'm Dominic, co-founder of Lossless.
Thank you very much for having us here.
What does Lossless do?
Yeah, thank you for the question.
So, Lossless is a security company where we focus on building security and monitoring
tools for businesses out there and for the general retail traders.
We are working with a network of white hat hackers where we help to recover stolen funds.
We have recovered in total close to $20 million of stolen assets.
And that's our manual labor part of the business.
But through our technology, what we do is we are currently expanding a new monitoring system,
which can be applied for businesses and retail users to their daily activity in crypto,
which helps to protect their assets and to educate them as well so that they understand how to manage their assets.
We do not have central entities here as we have in traditional finance where banks are managing it for us.
Here we have to educate it.
Here we have to learn it by ourselves.
And with our system, what we do, we are constantly monitoring what people are doing with their money.
For example, revoking old allowances and approvals with dApps that we forgot in the past.
We are monitoring third-party applications and protocols with whom they are interacting.
And we are notifying them if that protocol is risky, if some contract parameters are changing,
if somebody changes the ownership, and so on.
If I can expand on what Domenico has just said, this is from the official Lossless account.
So we're both here together.
If we want to expand, we have the Lossless protocol and also the Aegis tool.
Lossless protocol is the main protocol that we help other projects.
So either by wrapping or either by meeting the token with us, which also allows for a bunch of features,
even with the feature of literally reversing a transaction in case a hack is reported.
And then we have the different tools that we go through and we verify the hack.
And then we do the reversal of the transaction.
But with Aegis, and I wanted to also touch on how do we reach...
How are you reversing transactions?
Can you expand on that?
And does this have something to do with what your friend said about the 20 million in recovered funds?
Yes, so this is some, like, I don't want to go into, like, the technical bits.
Yes, but we do have the different committees.
We have, like, the system is built around watchers.
It's built around the projects having the LRC20 token.
Basically, once you wrap the token, it's an LERC20 standard.
And then that gives you the ability in case of a hack to reverse the tokens.
And the funds that...
So we have the case in the Harmony hack of the AEG token.
So some of those tokens were saved and those were given back to the project once the hack was reported.
And we did manage to save those funds.
If I want to...
If you'd allow me to go to the...
How do we reach to a billion users?
One of the main things when it comes to reaching a billion users is how do people have convenience?
One of them is getting rid of, like, phrases.
So you don't have to write down the phrase.
You don't have to remember where you put it.
You don't have to use other tools for it.
The other one is security.
And that's not only for the end user.
So for the normal person that is just trying to do normal things on DeFi, is just trying to move NFTs around.
But this is also for the projects.
So you not only need the normal people, let's say, to be able to use tools without worrying about their accounts getting hacked, their funds getting stolen.
You also need to make security very easy for projects as well.
The more projects you have, the more needs you address to everyone.
Because everyone has different needs.
Not every project is able to address every need.
You have projects that do loans.
You have projects that do just NFTs.
Our tools are geared towards as many projects as we can.
And the main objective is detect the hack.
In some cases, we have backtested a few hacks.
We were able to detect the potential of the hack before it happened.
Let's say, in some cases, 20 minutes before it happened.
In some cases, five minutes.
But those are, let's say, a very important time.
Every second, I think, matters when it comes to you getting hacked.
And especially for retail users, we do have a feature called Anik Button, which is coming up.
What that allows is you'll notice that you'll get a notification by our tool.
Hey, this contract, this wallet is trying to get funds from your account.
What you do is you just press the button and everything goes into another wallet safely without you having to go through different amounts of approvals, right?
So you don't have to click approve.
You don't have to click on pay the fee on all of those things.
You just click the panic button and everything is in this new safe space.
I want to go back, if we can, to earlier you were saying reversing transactions.
I don't know if that, like, triggered anyone else.
But, yeah, so I don't understand how does that work.
So you said you did that with Harmony.
What about with Ethereum?
Is that possible with Ethereum?
Yes.
Is this like having admin keys?
Yeah, so, okay.
Devin, you're going to take over here.
Okay, thank you.
Yeah, so to chip in here, yeah, it's possible to do with any ERC-20 token.
You just need to wrap it with our technology.
To give an example, what we are building with another company, TrustSwap, they have these contracts, vesting, locking, and staking pools.
Whereas people will deposit their assets into those contracts to keep their assets locked to generate some revenue.
And once those users deposit their assets into those contracts, they automatically wrap with lossless technology.
And if, in worst case scenario, trust swap can report that hack transaction onto lossless platform.
And then those funds are frozen in the hacker's wallet for 24 hours.
And within that period, security committee reviews the whole case and they vote on chain if they think this is a hack or not.
And if the majority of the votes are to work, yes, then the funds are returned.
So, and if, you know, the funds are not stolen and then the lock period ends, users withdraw their funds from those contracts and they are unwrapped and they have their original ETH, BNB, MATIC tokens, and so on.
Interesting. So, like, you know, a lot of these things we're talking about, what comes to my mind is that one of the cool things about crypto is that we, while we have these kind of core values, like immutable transactions, which are, you're kind of breaking here, or, you know, not your keys, not your coins, which in some ways account abstraction breaks.
Being kind of against the big banks and governments institutions, which kind of Michael Saylor and BlackRock and Fidelity kind of break.
What's really cool is that in crypto, it's all layers and it's programmable money.
So while we, at the core level, like, let's, let's go to the Michael Saylor and the institutions and banks and governments one.
So, you know, you have some people who are like, hey, fuck these guys. Let's not play ball with them. Let's not talk to the regulators. Let's not go lobby. Let's not, let's not play that game.
Let's just ignore them and build on our own. I think, in my opinion, it's okay to be nuanced. We don't have to say, oh, we will not talk to these people.
So it's because at our base layer, we still have the possibility of self-custody. Bitcoin doesn't care if, you know, BlackRock is investing in it.
It doesn't even know. The blocks just keep chugging along every 10 minutes, right? Same with Ethereum every 13 seconds.
So I think it's interesting that with programmable money, you have this flexibility. So like some people don't like that, you know, in the, in the traditional world, you can't, or you can reverse transactions, right?
But in crypto, you can't, they don't like that. But what they don't realize is you could build that on top, right? If you really wanted, you could build these kinds of things on top.
But if you want, if you, you know, people don't like the, the private key writing down stuff, it's too complicated for a lot of people, but it's okay because you can build the layer on top.
So that's something really cool about programmable money.
And if I could just chime in here, once again, I'm ParityBet from Widnet Oracle and just kind of from Oracle perspective.
By the way, I like, I like Widnet. I like your guys' Oracles.
Yeah, thanks. Thanks, man. Really appreciate that.
Yeah. And being completely permissionless and decentralized, we get some customers that that is not their main concern, right?
And especially customers coming from the Web2 world, they just want to offload that security and that risk to a third party and have like a contract to where they could sue them or get reparations if something goes wrong, like reversible transactions.
And they're not that familiar or not that fluent in what an immutable blockchain actually is and how things can not be reversed or maybe they can't, right?
So some people care about permissionless protocols, decentralization, managing it themselves.
Others would prefer to offload that to someone that they trust, right?
So you were talking about different layers here.
And I think one of those is a layer of trust.
Not only in the data, but who's managing these things for you, right?
Like, for example, if you sign up for some staking pool, right, you have some layer of trust within that staking pool.
While also you can still manage your own keys.
So like there's certain layers here, I think you're, you were right on about.
So to play devil's advocate now with myself.
So there I was kind of agreeing with you guys and, and, uh, you know, saying that, okay, maybe it's okay that we open up our mind to some of these things.
Even the ledger thing is something that I, I think maybe, maybe was, I'm not sure if it was foolish of them or if it was, uh, a good idea to release it the way they do.
I think maybe they should have had like a deeper discussion with the community before releasing as it is like something that will trigger a lot of people and is quite concerning.
They also should have done a better job of explaining to people that this was a possibility in the first place, because most of us didn't think that it was at all possible to export your private key in any way.
We thought it was magically locked away in this, you know, this, this secure element, this chip that could never be seen by even us.
Um, this, this, you know, black box, but, um, anyways, to, uh, to play devil's advocate here, we do need to, against myself, we do need to, uh, keep these things in mind.
So like, sometimes I hear people say things like decentralization, isn't that important.
Some people don't care about it.
Yeah, but it's up to us to educate people as to why they should care about that.
Why they, it's like privacy, right?
The world's level of privacy has dropped to, it's very bad, right?
But we need to keep this at people's, the forefront of people's minds.
We need to keep self custody at the forefront of their minds.
We need to continue to discuss immutability and, uh, and censorship resistance because these kinds of tools we're talking about could create, you know, avenues for censorship.
And while it's nice to say that, well, at least the option is always there if we're just using these as layers, the reality is if you get like, say, something that catches wind, like say, let's say Facebook builds a system on top of this and say, you know, half of the world's population is using this Facebook wallet for all of their funds.
Then you leave the ability open that either government or hackers or whatever it is, some dystopian nightmare, uh, comes along and, you know, does the things that we're warning everyone about.
So while it is a good point, um, flexibility, I think we do need to keep in mind the issues that can come with this and educate people because most people just don't even know why it matters.
They don't know why self custody is so important.
They don't know that, you know, gold was confiscated in the United States.
They don't know that half of people's money was taken in Cyprus and Greece and all of these historical things that happened in the world.
And, uh, I, I think the main point, like I always liked the saying, show me the incentive.
I'll show you the outcome.
And if we can design the incentives to where people, it's better to collaborate instead of try to exploit, um, within security models.
Um, if we give too much trust over to, like you said, uh, monolithic company that acquires a lot of stake in a wallet, um, or something like that, um, they obviously have an incentive to do something right.
Uh, to, to do, um, maybe something nefarious.
Uh, well, I mean, I would even argue that like Facebook or these people, typically you wouldn't have an, their incentive is like to give a great experience to users.
Like, uh, I'm, I'm a capitalist.
I think generally companies do, uh, what's best for the user because if they, uh, didn't, the user would leave or use someone else.
But, but, but then you have like, what I always worry about is crony capitalism, which is government getting involved.
You never know when the government might twist their arm, right?
Because it's in their best interest.
So the incentives aren't fully aligned now.
Yeah, that's a great point.
And I think how we design incentives, like we can programmatically do this through solidity, for example, uh, to design incentives, um, around security and how can we protect the security of the user through the incentives that are out there, right?
If there's the incentive for someone to be hacked, uh, okay, do we spawn off different platforms that prevent hacks or reimburse people for hacks?
Or do we, like, make it to where, um, maybe something else?
So we are, we're talking here, um, yeah, sorry.
So I just want to chime in because, um, I'm hearing here a lot about self custody and how users, um, should protect themselves.
Um, but what do you think about how protocols should protect themselves and by that protecting the users?
Uh, like we're seeing, um, I heard here in Loslas, which are doing great job and like Hexagate is also in the, like, uh, targeting the same things.
And we, we put a lot of effort into identifying and attack infrastructure, uh, when it is being built before the hack is actually happening.
We are leveraging machine learning algorithms, we're indexing all blockchains from the Genesis blocks, uh, block and in real time.
And we, and we are able to basically detect hacks between hours, even days before they happen.
Uh, of course, some hacks, uh, we only had like a few minutes to do that.
Um, but still we don't see many protocols, um, understand and, uh, adopt such, such solutions that eventually will help them protect their ecosystem.
So I'm really curious to hear, you know, from, uh, the protocols here, what are their, their thoughts around that?
What are they going to do in order to make sure that their users are actually protected apart from, of course, of course, a gut obstruction, which is not in the, uh, uh, in where like protocols are, like, what they need to, to care about for their users.
Yeah, uh, definitely I can, I can speak a little bit.
Um, I do agree with, uh, exactly here that, uh, you, you know, the protocols themselves need to do a lot more and take code security a lot more seriously than they are doing, uh, right now.
And especially with, uh, our latest tool, uh, not latest tool, but, you know, I just, it's which, uh, the tool that we are focusing the most right now, it's our hack mitigation tool and how hack detection.
Um, what we're trying to do is we're trying to build basically the best tool that we can in order to help, uh, protocols themselves, themselves to protect, to protect the platform, to protect, uh, themselves.
And therefore, you know, the user never gets hacked.
Even with like Facebook, for example, that came up, like a user doesn't really need to think more than about his password.
So it's like, if I have my password and I don't share my password with anyone, you know, and password can be password literally.
So it's, it's more simple than, you know, keeping safe the, the passphrase.
And now with like password managers, for example, it's, you don't even have to think about that.
You don't even have to remember.
So we're, we're literally giving away all of the responsibility of keeping our passwords, uh, secure.
We're giving away the, uh, let's say the responsibility of keeping our account secure to all of these, these, uh, third parties.
And I think protocols like us, like Exegate, uh, have, let's say the responsibility or have the opportunity to, uh, give all of these protocols tools to keep themselves safe and to also, uh, guarantee, uh, safety for the users as well.
Because it has to come from the protocol first, and then the user is, let's say, a second layer of security.
Uh, the protocol definitely needs to do, uh, their part when it comes to keeping the platform safe.
Yeah, because users, users aren't security experts, right?
User, and we cannot expect a user to have like a, you know, a degree in, in security and ops set.
So it's really important for us to make as much as we can to fix this kind of stuff.
I mean, I, I, I like what someone, um, who was it?
Fire.
What, what, what was that project that said you guys make a extension that shows you what you're signing before you sign it?
I am, I get such anxiety.
My heart rate goes up every time I sign a transaction and I don't understand what the code is saying.
So that, it sounds like that's what you guys are solving.
Who was that?
Yeah.
Fire or something earlier in the call?
Fire or something earlier in the call?
Fire or something earlier in the call?
Fire or something earlier in the call?
So what, what, what, so, just like looking at the cloud, like, could?
Yeah, it's like, I think the one Rocky is mentioning, so, uh, so there are tools that, like,
Hexagate also built this tool for, for the benefit of the ecosystem.
And, like, it's an extension that, uh, because we believe in a, in a holistic approach.
Like, you can't only, uh, work with protocols and help them be secure.
You need to work with the entire ecosystem.
And our mission is to make, uh, Web3 safe and secure for everyone.
Um, so alongside working with protocols and building their sec ops, um, and allowing them
to monitor and protect their smart contract.
You also have an extension that you can download for free, by the way.
Um, just like, click on our, uh, website browser extension and provide you a way to get, uh,
exactly what Rocky mentioned.
Like, you can see all the transaction before they are being signed.
What is the risk with each and every transaction for simulation, transaction trace, balance change.
Um, if you are interacting with, uh, a site, which is malicious, like adapt, which is malicious,
or you're assigning, uh, a malicious transaction or, uh, a signature that might, uh, put your funds in harm.
Um, so, um, so yeah, okay.
I, I, I totally agree here.
I think that users should not care about security.
It's the communities and the protocols that should bake in security for them.
It should be in the, uh, responsibility of wallets, of protocols.
Uh, hopefully we'll see it soon with, uh, the, the browsers themselves.
And, uh, and yeah, I can, I can totally relate to that.
You may have, uh, maybe misquoted a little bit, me, uh, which I'm not, you said that users
shouldn't care about security.
I think you, we both mean the same thing that you shouldn't have to care about security.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It's like today when you are, um, like interacting with like your Gmail, uh, you know that you
need to protect your password.
But apart from this, you know that everything is taken care of by the actual experts that
are getting paid for protecting you to make sure that everything is secured.
And I think same thing should happen, uh, in crypto.
Users should only care about, um, protecting their keys, um, to do it in, of course, in a
right manner.
And they should have all the available tools that will help them to see that with each
and every on-chain interaction that they are doing, that they are secure.
So I hope this makes sense now.
Yeah, I agree.
Um, but also I think maybe through education, right?
That, um, there is still some level of trust that the user puts in.
Say they download a wallet app.
They're not going to review the code themselves, an average user.
So they need to put some level of trust into that or the protocol.
Um, so to have, uh, a layer of verification or, or something else, um, I'm not sure what
that looks like, but I think is important because sure, uh, it should be up to the wallets or
the wallet provider or the smart contract provider, the protocol to leave the user's, uh, apprehension
about the level of risk or security.
Um, but there's some level of trust there still.
It's not completely trustless unless the user reviews the code themselves.
But I have to add something.
Hey, Michael here again, that radar, right?
So fine.
I didn't show anything so far, right?
And I, it's not going to happen, but it's, but let me tell you something.
Okay.
Because I think that just trust and everything is not gonna, it's not enough.
I think we need one more layer, which is, uh, simply information, visibility.
Okay.
So for example, okay.
Um, and, and this is where I kind of talk a little bit about that radar because it's
exactly fitting the, what we're talking about right now.
So, um, if you're going to use a wallet, okay.
And you interact with whatever web three smart contracts, um, then you would like to know,
is it really the smart contract that I'm trying to interact with or not?
Is it the right one?
So even if, you know, like in, in the web two world, you said, yeah, somebody has to be
trusted, but we don't, we don't want trust.
Okay.
We want information we want, right.
We want validation from the community.
So for example, uh, we have integrated, uh, not we, but, uh, uh, but, uh, that provides
a lot of data about the whole industry.
All right.
Like we know basically every DAP on the, on every, on 50 blockchains, um, and block fence
has, for example, integrated our, our API.
So for example, what is the benefit for the user?
They go and interact with something with a smart contract and they can see immediately
see what is the, the logo and the title and the, the, the statistics of that, um, of
that DAP, decentralized app that they are interacting with.
And remember, uh, a DAP can have multiple smart contracts.
So it's not as easy as just saying, okay, this one smart contract is this DAP.
It can be 10, 20, uh, cross chains and everything.
So what I'm adding to the discussion or to the, to the, you know, what I'm adding to
the table is basically saying, also please use data, okay.
And, and integrate data in a nice user-friendly way into the, into the wallets that we are
using so that we can actually see, uh, what we're interacting with because it's quite
easy to scan people otherwise, uh, to go to the wrong page or, or interact with a, with
an old version or, or a different deprecated version and stuff like that.
Um, because there is no central party who says this is the, the right app.
That this is the wrong app.
Instead, it's a community driven effort and this data has to be available to everyone,
which is exactly what we're offering.
Um, so I hope that helps as well.
And, uh, if you, by the way, if you want this data, you can, we offer it.
Yeah.
It's, it's there.
It's quite important.
And I, and we're working with more and more wallets to integrate it, uh, to make a user's
life better.
DAPradar.com.
Yes.
Sorry for shilling a little bit.
Okay.
But.
Great.
Uh, yeah.
I, I, I, we, we love DAPradar.
And making data more available.
I think that's important.
Something that I would also mention is in that effort, having public Git hubs where there
is maybe a license, uh, GNU or just open source to where there's also like continuous integration.
So people can have kind of a reputation of who is building the project.
How can we track this?
What is, um, maybe like a reputation score of the GitHub and open source and like tracking
the deployment to verify, okay, this by code actually matches what's on GitHub and X amount
of people have contributed to it.
So it must be safe, right?
Like if I don't initially trust the protocol, can I trust the code?
Um, and I think just that data availability layer, uh, that you were mentioning.
Exactly.
And by the way, I forgot to say before I pinned the tweet, um, where it shows a quick video
on how BlockFence is actually detecting which DAP is it.
Cause just by looking at the smart contract wouldn't happen.
So you can see how it works in their use case.
If you have any similar use case, I'd love to help you integrate, uh, because we want to
help everyone.
So yeah, so I'm quite excited about that.
By the way, quick question.
Did we already talk about, uh, ledger versus non-ledger or stuff?
I mean, I was, I wanted to, I do want to touch on that.
Yeah.
Would you, what do you, uh, you want to open that up?
Yeah, I want to open it up.
Pause everyone real quick.
Uh, this just in Bitcoin 31 K happy 31 K day.
Let's go.
It feels so good.
It feels so good.
Lost enough, lost enough money.
It was, uh, uh, I'm happy to gain some.
This is the ultimate, this is the ultimate industry of delayed gratification.
If you could survive a multi-year bear market and still be here, you know, like every Friday,
for example, hosting these spaces and having fun with, with all of us and talking about
this stuff, talking about security and, and all this while the market's been, you know,
a bloodbath for years, most people can't stomach, you know, when they're, when their favorite
GameStop or whatever stock goes down for, you know, a week or a month, they're out, right?
They give up.
So kudos to everybody here.
Who's, uh, still here in the heart of the bear market.
Yeah, man.
For sure.
You're basically, you know, these babies that get two marsh, get one marshmallow and they
have to wait for the second one.
And if they wait for the second one, they, uh, yeah.
So you, all, all of you guys here are, are a baby that waits for the second marshmallow.
Okay.
You guys, you guys are all, you guys are all marshmallow babies.
It kind of reminds me of, um, like the Lindy effect.
It's like the phenomenon where like the future life expectancy of a protocol or a technology
or idea is proportional to their current age.
So like the longer you've been around, the better your chances of weathering the bear market.
Yep.
Eight, eight years here for me of a lot of ups and a lot of downs.
Uh, Jack, are you going to say something?
Yeah, sure.
So I just wanted to touch on something you said earlier about, um, you mentioned, you
know, like the, the risk with larger institutions, even if that helps to safeguard security in
some ways that, you know, eventually like they might get to a size where the government
feels that they can lean on them to do this or that, you know, uh, for example, to expose
user data or to, um, you know, actually confiscate funds in some cases.
Well, obviously Twitter before Elon took it over, wasn't exactly a financial institution,
but it was a very, very large, uh, platform and that essentially was happening.
You know, some of the stuff that, you know, Matt Saiby and others have exposed through the
Twitter files is like that exact kind of co-mingling of, you know, government and corporate
interest.
That was really, uh, it was really lucky actually that it was kind of rescued by Elon
and we're all kind of uniquely, uh, blessed by him taking over.
And I think it's just, it serves as a real kind of warning to us in this industry about
like, whilst, yes, we do want to onboard the next billion users to Web3 and whilst most of
us in the space who've been around for a while know that that isn't going to happen with the
current setup, I think there needs to be at the heart of this industry still a big drive
for things like not your keys, not your coins, self-custody, seed phrases, hardware wallets.
Like it's, it's a difficult topic because we know that like all those things, like even
if you're a veteran user and you've used those things for five, six, seven, eight years, um,
everybody that uses them knows they're a pain in the ass.
So it's like, it's just one of those things where it takes you five minutes longer, but
it, you know, it makes it basically, you know, unreachable from a hacking point of view.
And so that I would just say like, as a note of caution, whilst all these new developments
are brilliant and they're going to reduce friction and increase adoption.
And that's what we all want.
Um, I think like at the heart of this industry still at the, it may be at the protocol level
or at the hardcore community level, there still needs to be that like really big self-custody
ethos.
And if that means you have to write down seed phrases and hide them at your grandma's
house or whatever, then so be it.
Yeah, I agree.
We got to keep these things at the forefront of our mind.
It's right.
I can't like stress enough because you just look at how in history, like let's, let's use
another example.
Uh, when our country where, or when my country, you are, if you're here in the United States
was founded, we had a constitution a bit later, we had a bill of rights and these amendments
that were supposed to be really important.
And, uh, over time, these things kind of get, you know, people start to forget about
the reason we had these things in the first place.
You know, I, I, we, we, when we fought the Brits, you Jack, you, you, you bastard.
No, I'm just kidding.
Uh, it was, you personally, uh, it's your ancestors, man.
I want, I want reparation for my tea tax, man.
No, I'm just kidding.
Uh, we had the, uh, we had this 3% tea tax.
It wasn't even, we had, there was no income tax.
It was a 3% tea tax we were fighting over and we went to war over it.
And then over time, they slowly introduced income tax and they said, don't worry, it'll
only be on the rich people.
It'll be only one or 2%.
And now, you know, fast forward, you know, 150, 200 years later from when they first introduced
income tax, uh, and I'm at 53% tax bracket.
So it's like the, the slow boiling frog.
Um, if like right now it starts with that accounting abstraction and people start to become okay
with, uh, you know, not necessarily needing, uh, uh, you know, to hold their own keys.
Maybe it's ledger doing this thing where it's, well, you have three, uh, separate like kind
of shards that are all individually hashed and they're held by three different companies,
but then people get used to that.
And then they're like, well, you know, maybe it's okay if, uh, you know, just one, two companies
hold it and then it's okay if just one company holds it and then it's okay if the government
holds it, et cetera.
So yeah.
And just to be careful and keep the ethos.
So we don't slowly slip into the things we built this to counter.
That's exactly my point.
And just, you know, one of the huge benefits of, of, uh, specifically Bitcoin, but you know,
basically a lot of cryptocurrencies that are kind of like super secure and have been around
a while is that if you have the seed phrase and if you have the fortitude to memorize it,
um, you can, you know, uh, walk away from a conflict zone.
Let's say, you know, you might, you might live, let's say you was living in Ukraine and you
decided to flee, you could walk away from that conflict zone with, with, with basically no
worldly possessions, but you know, but you've got your seed phrase and, you know, maybe a
few notes like the, the actual, uh, wallet address and stuff, but like nothing that anybody
basically could find and take away from you and, and get your funds.
And you could, you could go across the border with that.
I mean, to wherever you are, as long as you can get your hands on a laptop, you can basically
get all your funds back and that is like, uh, such a benefit, especially with the world
at the moment is kind of dangerous.
Let's say, and it's, it's trending towards instability over recent years with the pandemic
and then the things that came after.
And I just think that is such a valuable part of this technology and we should try our best
to stick to that, even if it means some awkwardness.
Yeah, I agree.
This is so powerful.
I also like exactly this aspect, but I wanted to actually talk about, uh, how you can actually
not need, uh, you can make it happen.
You don't need private keys or speed phrases or, I mean, you do need, but you don't need
to remember them.
Uh, you don't need to write them down, nothing like that, because I think it's, it's a massive
pain in the butt to do it.
You always have a weird feeling, even if you put it in a password manager, even if you, I
mean, you might've seen last pass got hacked, right?
I mean, sure, they hopefully encrypted the fields that you, but they didn't encrypt all
the fields.
You get the idea.
Don't pass for, like key, uh, key, private keys are a pain in the ass.
And I wanted to just, uh, to open the discussion if, if that's okay right now, by the way, uh,
about, um, do we really need these, uh, keys, right?
Do we need, do we need to write them down?
Is there not a better option for that?
Is there like, what is the upgrade from this?
Because it's a pain in the butt.
There has to be a better way, right?
Because like, if you remember the keys and everything, like what if something happens
to you, you meet an accident, like how do you pass on that particular information to
your, like the next, next family member and stuff like you're like, all your wealth is
lost.
If you are lost, if you lose your memory, right?
Yeah.
And like, exactly.
So, so it's basically super cool that you can leave the country and cross the border and
your money is with you, but it's, but it's also super not cool if you die in the process
and then nobody has access.
Okay.
So I agree a hundred percent.
So I found something interesting.
You might have already heard it on YouTube or wherever you are reading your news, but
uh, it's a new concept for, for, for dealing with, with hardware, hardware wallets.
It's called, um, the Tangent Wallet.
Who has heard about it?
Not I.
Okay, cool.
So then I can share new things and make you happy.
So, um, here's the thing, right?
Uh, you know, near field communication, you have this on your credit card when you tap
and, you know, it communicates with the thing it can do.
It can also communicate with your phone and iPhone and Android.
They have this NFC reader, near field communication reader.
And what Tangent Wallet is basically doing is saying, okay, you get a three cards.
Those are just plastic cards, like basically like your credit card, but they're just nicely
printed on and nothing else.
And there is a chip inside and there's nothing inside whatsoever, but there is an app you
install on your phone.
Then when you create your wallet, basically you tap the card on the back of your phone.
And in that moment, and you are, and you put a password as well.
You put a password as well.
Okay.
Now in that moment, your phone writes the, generates the, the key, uh, the, the, the seed
phrase, but also puts your password in there as well as one of the, as one of the, the,
the, the elements.
And then it stores it onto the card, like a two factor, basically.
Exactly.
So, so, so, so Tangent has never seen your seed phrase because it's basically just generated
directly and it's put into the card and you can do that three times.
So you have three cards.
Okay.
So you can give one card to your lawyer or to your, you know, somebody that takes care
of your will and if you pass away, whatever, right, somebody can take the card and
use it.
You can, uh, the other two, you can keep safe, but even if somebody finds the card and they
don't have the password, which you can put in a password manager if you want, they can
still come to anything.
So for me, that's quite interesting because now, instead of having one point of failure,
which is the seed phrase, you have another thing to protect you, which is the password,
which you can store somewhere, or you can remember even password.
You can remember seed phrase.
I'm not sure.
Most people can't remember more than three, three or four words.
So then, you know, it's pretty bad.
So, um, so I wanted to, I really liked this idea.
I ordered one.
It's like, by the way, I'm not affiliated or anything like this.
I ordered one.
It's a pre, it's a pre order.
I really liked the idea because I don't have to write down any seed phrase whatsoever,
which I think is interesting.
But how does it solve my, like, problem of me dying and, like, passing on information
to the next kid?
What did you say, sir?
I mean, like, but how does it solve the problem of me dying and, like, how do I pass on the
information to my, like, the next family member?
Your mic sucked, brother.
Yeah, but I understand, I understand the question.
So this is how it solves the issue.
So you, you have one of these three cards.
You give one of the cards to, uh, to a notary or to a lawyer, you know, when you, you, then
we have to, you have a will and you have somebody taking care of the will to be executed once
you die, right?
So instead of giving them text, you give them the card and the password.
If you want, you can give them the password through a different means.
There are software tools for passing on all your passwords to your, uh, you know, from
one password, for example, or last pass, you can pass it on to someone else.
You could, they have, they have features for this.
So in the, in combination, both of those, you, your, your, your follow-up, your children
can have access to your, to your fund.
So that's totally possible.
And the other two cards, you can keep them.
You can put one in the bank, okay, we don't like banks, but in a vault and the other one
you take with you on your trips, because without the card, you can't do anything.
Again, even if the card gets found, you'd still need the, the person still needs the
password in order to do any transaction.
So when you do a transaction, I didn't say that, but obviously you tap the card on the
back of the phone, you put the password, boom, transaction goes through.
Okay.
So I really liked this idea, but let's start dissecting it to find any issues with it.
But I think it's the future.
Is there a protection from trying passwords too many times?
Because I don't know about you guys, but I've lost my wallet many times in my life.
And if I had a card in it that had a bunch of crypto on it, and then someone just had
to like run it through some brute force password program, and that wouldn't be a good thing
for me.
Yeah, it has, basically, I read the documentation and it says that if you, the more often you
try, the longer you have to wait until you can try again.
And at some point it will take months and years until you can try again.
So yeah, it has that.
I mean, I invited them here today, but Zengo don't actually have a seed phrase for their
wallet.
But they use MPC, which basically means that, I mean, they've got three-factor authentication.
It goes to your email address that you need to attribute to your account.
It's like a 3D face lock that I think they encrypt in store.
And then, like, you get a recovery file.
So they literally don't have any seed phrase.
I mean, that deal a lot with the community.
And, like, I mean, the amount of people that have just given their seed phrase to a random
guy that DMed them on Telegram is just unfathomable.
Yeah.
So, Michael, what's this card called?
I mean, it looks fascinating.
I'll, like, try it out.
I'll order this one to try it out.
Like, what's the name of the company or the card?
It's called Tangem, T-A-N-G-A-M, Tangem, with an M at the end.
But basically, it doesn't really, like, I mean, this one is cool because I also ordered
But actually, it's not so much about this particular thing.
It's just actually about, let's talk about hardware wallets that do not need us to write
down a seed phrase.
And we mentioned two of them already in this call, which I think that's the future, right?
Who cares about seed phrases, okay?
We want to get rid of them.
And that's one solution on how to do that.
But there are for sure others out there, maybe coming more and more.
And, like, the ledger thing, you know, and all this stuff of we can change the software
to get your key out and shit like this wouldn't even work because there is no seed phrase that
these apps can access, right?
Like, and I like this idea and where this is going.
And also, I like this kind of two-factor, if you will, like the password part.
Because without that, it's just seed phrase or no seed phrase.
Like, you lose it and you're gone, right?
Like, I want to have the security of, okay, I lose it.
But then if you don't know my password, you still, you can't steal my money, right?
I like this feeling of there's a second thing I have just in another place, basically.
And people are used to passwords, right?
So it's not super alien to them.
So if you give them, like, a card and you tell them, hey, you have a password, they totally
get it, right?
Because it's a password.
Like, it's easy, okay?
So they don't have to deal with the words and all this stuff.
And I can imagine my wife would be way more happy with this kind of thing than when I
put her ledger in front and I said, hey, you have to write 12 words and I have to explain
that if she loses that, all her money is gone.
Like, nobody wants to hear that.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, so let's get away from seed phrases.
I completely, completely agree with you.
Yeah.
I mean, we have to.
We need to figure out a way, you know, to get away from the seed phrases.
And the second important thing is, like, how do I pass this information, like, securely,
you know, to my relatives, to my friends, like, if something happens to me.
But I don't want to share that information until something happens to me, you know?
I mean, like, that in particular information.
I mean, like, the way Nomini works in banks, right?
I mean, they can only access my account when something happens to me, right?
So, I mean, something of that sort, but in a decent life manner.
Maybe banks will get reduced to just that because they're not better.
They can't do anything anymore.
Just that.
I mean, I've seen a protocol that you have to basically sign the transaction.
But if you don't do any transactions on the account for maybe six months, then it automatically
transfers all your assets to, like, a designated wallet.
I mean, I like that idea.
But as far as seed phrases go, I definitely think we need to move away from that.
I mean, even MetaMask had to change it from calling it a seed phrase to a secret recovery
phrase because people just kept giving them away.
They were just, like, throwing their seed phrase out like candy to whoever asked them
on Telegram.
So, I mean, even that.
But, yeah, I mean, even the security measures that people need to take to just protect their
seed phrase.
Obviously, you get most of the people that will just screenshot it and put it on the
cloud.
But I remember on a call once, I mean, I'm not going to get any details, but Rock explained
his just a few ways that he's managed to try to keep seed phrases safe before.
And if you were not crypto native, you would just think he was nuts.
There was, like, there was, like, a hammer involved.
You know, it's so random and funny, and maybe it's because I'm prompted by what we're discussing
here already.
But I was just typing to one of the Doge Foundation developers.
He actually just posted about, like, how to do safe transactions in Doge without using
a ledger.
And I was just typing to him exactly what you just brought up as I was typing it, kind
of random.
But, and I don't even talk about this to many people, so it's not like every day I'm
talking about this.
But, so, I can't talk about my full, like, security scheme, but I can talk about some
elements of it.
And I do think it is important not to have all of your assets on just ledger or just
treasure or any one scheme or all on one centralized exchange, right?
So, you should have your assets spread out.
I mean, I must have my assets on, I don't know, 30 wallets plus, maybe 40 spread out
around the world, different countries.
So, one way to have some protection is, like, geographic distribution.
Another thing you can do is, this is an interesting one, and it's not that hard.
It is a little bit technical, but, and it does require some stuff.
So, you can take an old laptop of yours and, or buy a new laptop and then remove the, never
connect it to the internet and remove the, the Wi-Fi card and remove any, if you want to
get really serious about it, you could remove, like, any Bluetooth or any other, like, components
that could communicate with the internet.
Then you, you can, I'll give you the example for Bitcoin.
So, you could download Electrum wallet and you can install, you install, you put that onto
a flash drive because you can't download anything on that computer.
Remember, it's, it's offline.
So, you put that Electrum wallet onto a flash drive, take the flash drive, put it onto that
offline computer.
We call it air-gapped, meaning it never touches the internet.
It never will touch the internet and it cannot touch the internet.
So, now you, you install that Electrum Bitcoin wallet and you create your, your key there and
you can save that key onto an encrypted hard drive.
There's some really advanced ones you could buy, like, from Amazon that are, are very,
you know, powerful and have, like, double encryption and things.
Anyways, that's, let's, I'm going to get, there's, there's so many layers to this.
I'm just going to give the basic layer.
So, you download Electrum, put it on a flash drive, put it on the air-gapped computer, you
install it, save the private key, and now you can install Electrum on your online hot
computer and on that computer, you can, you can, you take, you can generate a, I think it's a
master public key from the offline computer.
You put it in the flash drive, you take that to the online computer and there you can write
a transaction.
You cannot sign a transaction.
You can write it, but the private keys are not on that computer.
They're on the air-gapped computer.
So, with the offline computer, you create the transaction, you say, if you ever want
to send money, you say, oh, I want to send $100 to, you know, so-and-so, you generate
the unsigned transaction, you take that transaction to the hot computer, or I'm sorry, on the hot
computer, you generate the unsigned transaction, then you take it to the cold computer, and then
you sign it, and then you put it back on the flash drive, take it to the hot computer, and
then you broadcast it.
So, you're only broadcasting a signature for that transaction, not the actual private
key.
It's very similar to what a ledger does, but you're doing it yourself with multiple devices.
That was probably pretty confusing, but...
Also, just a note on the end of that.
If you use an old computer, that you mentioned at the start, you have to make sure you wipe
it to factory settings before you do anything else, because obviously, like, that would severely
fuck it up if you've been, you know, watching dodgy stuff on there, and then...
And if you want to be, like, really safe, too, like, the reason he mentioned the hammer
is because, like, with some of my deepest cold storage, which, you know, I won't touch
for many years, like, there is, on a computer, if you have passphrases and things that you
generated on that computer, there is, there are ways that people with very powerful equipment,
government agencies, not that I'm trying to dodge government agencies, but government
agencies, hackers, anyone, can read stuff that was on your computer, even if you delete
So, you got to be considerate of that, and so, for me, the answer is, if I make something
and put it into deep, cold storage, then I destroy the computer afterwards, so that there's
no chance anyone can read that, that hard drive.
I destroy the hard drive afterwards.
So, now, I don't want to, like, get everyone all, you know, worried about, man, is this what
I got to do to store my, you know, $1,000 of Bitcoin?
No, that's not, you don't need to go this far.
This is if you're really serious about, you know, putting stuff into very deep, cold storage
that you're not, you don't plan on touching for a long time, you know, retirement money.
And, I mean, another, another aspect is just don't, like, you should have some stuff put
away like that, or in some, whatever your method is, or whatever you think is how far
you want to go, but you should have some stuff put away that is not at your home.
You should not keep your stuff at your home, particularly if you're someone like me or
many people on this call that are, you know, known and doxxed, and the world knows who you
are, there's always a chance that someone could come to your house and put a gun to
your head and ask for your crypto.
So, you, I don't keep my crypto at my house.
Yeah, so it's one of those things, right, where, when you, so, like, this is, like, the
equivalent in the old days of having a really big safe, and the problem with that is, the
bigger you're safe, the more likely the weak point in the safe is you, and so you have
to, like, take precautions in that regard, like, this is where geographical dispersion becomes
important, I think.
Yeah, and I also wanted to touch, like, all of those steps, you tell that to 99% of the
people that you meet outside, and they're like, I just keep some money in my home, and
I just put the rest in the bank, and I go to sleep, sound and safe, right?
So, we, even, it doesn't matter what we think about banks, but even in crypto, we need to
get to a point where you feel safe holding funds in the same way that people usually feel
safe just holding them at the bank.
It's worse now.
It used to be better.
Now it's like, oh, I have it at the bank.
It's less safe than holding it in a random crypto project.
So, I think following the steps, and especially people being informed on how to protect themselves,
that's going to be key.
But it definitely needs to have a lot less steps.
Because it needs to be more intuitive, and, you know, it shouldn't require to put more
effort into trying to keep your funds safe rather than, you know, not moving them at
all.
So, yeah.
I've got this idea that I'm sure people are thinking of this, and it kind of goes with this
account abstraction or this ledger thing.
But what would be really cool is if you can have, like, some kind of, the way I imagine
it would be some kind of, like, encrypted shards, basically, like Ledger is kind of talking
about, where you can choose, and no central service knows, so you make the choice, and
nobody knows who your five, say, multi-sigs are, your multi-signatories.
So, you can, say, take, tell, and if you had different companies supporting this, like,
let's say Facebook supported this, and Twitter supported this, and Bank of America supported
this, maybe the U.S.
government supported this, whoever, whoever you want your trusted parties to be, and they
each hold, like, a piece of your multi-sig, but they don't know who the other parties are.
So, it's, like, encrypted in a way that nobody knows who the other parties are.
You just go through your Bank of America app, or your Twitter app, or, you know, whatever
you send.
You could have one that's, like, by the U.S. post office, and you send a freaking letter
to them, and tell them to sign the key, whatever.
It could be anything you can imagine.
It could be your mom's Facebook account, or your brother's Twitter account, or it could
be a hardware wallet.
It could be your brother's hardware wallet, or your hardware wallet, or your, you know, whatever.
So, you have all these different parties that can sign on your behalf, and you create this,
like, social wallet.
And it could be, say, a five out of seven.
Or maybe if nobody knows who the other party is, maybe it could even be just, like, a three
out of seven multi-sig.
And if you put any of those pieces together, but you've got to go to your friends to request
those pieces, then you can do the transaction.
And the cool thing about that, too, is you can tell these people, maybe, like, hey, they
would obviously know they're one of your pieces.
But you tell them, look, when I die, here's my will, go talk to my family members, talk
to our close friends.
And I'm sure, you know, once I'm dead, you'll figure out, like, who the other people are.
You know, post on Facebook, and everybody can figure it out together.
And then unlock my funds or something.
I think that's interesting.
I think the problem with that, again, is, like, the fact that people can collude and,
you know, take out your funds and rug you.
I know that then the problem to the solution is sort of, like, how do you incentivize a group
of people to keep your wallet secure?
And it turns into that sort of game theory problem.
And I think the answer to that...
Well, if you really were worried, if you didn't have, say, three or five people that you can
trust in the world, then, like I said, you could make it, let's say, let's say you don't
trust your brother or mom or something.
That's unfortunate.
I'm sorry for you.
But if you don't, I mean, I don't trust all my family members, that's for sure.
But if you, say, had three family members, and then you had Facebook or the U.S. government
as shards or whatever, whoever it is you can trust, or maybe there's some service who does
this, you know, some will service or whatever.
I mean, I'm sure if we can build this kind of system, you could get creative with it.
And you can make it a six out of seven multi-sig if you wanted.
There's other things you could do with it, too.
Something I didn't mention earlier to kind of expand on just the tool set we have here
that we could use to accomplish our mission here, which is making stuff easier and making
it so you can't lose your keys and making it so if you die, you have a, you know, solution.
But another thing you could do is, and I think Darren might have mentioned this with one of
these projects, but I think he did, but it's a decaying multi-sig.
So you could have something that starts as a six out of seven multi-sig, and then every
six months, if there's no transactions, it drops from a six out of seven to a five out
of seven, then a four out of seven, then a three out of seven.
And that way, over time, if you lost some of the keys or if you're dead, eventually it'll
decay to where, you know, the group can get the funds or something.
Got it, got it.
One thing I would like, I had an idea about this actually, where like there's already on-chain
arbitration protocols, so you don't even need the U.S. government or Facebook or whatever
to be, you know, part of that arbitration, and instead it could be just like these arbitration
protocols where you could put them in charge of handling your funds, and when you need to
withdraw your funds, you present your case to the council and be like, this is my funds,
this is who it's registered under, and now I need to withdraw it.
And then it's basically like a jury is held, and it's decided, and then your funds can be
withdrawn.
Can I say something?
Like, I was listening to you for a while, like, okay, all these ideas and how you can make
it happen, but I don't trust anyone, okay?
Like, I'm trying to understand, like, I mean, sure, you might trust your family members,
I don't, I mean, they're nice people, but still, and I really still, like, it comes back
to this idea of having these cards that I mentioned in the beginning, okay, I'm not trying to be
boring or anything, but imagine, okay, if you don't have the password, even if you have
the card, they can't do anything.
So, I don't, I don't see a better solution right now, because it solves all these issues.
I mean, I'm just trying to be, I'm just trying to summarize everything.
The problem is people don't trust themselves either.
So, if you don't trust anyone and you don't trust yourself, how do I, how do I, how do
this work?
No, I mean, you know, I understand, but, like, I don't like this idea of, you know, three or
four people can collude or, or automatically money will move away somewhere.
And then, listen, I'm a developer, okay, I'm an engineer, I automate things.
I swear to God, it not always works as intended, especially when you say, when you do something
today, and then in 10 years, you expect it to be perfect.
It's not, it's because the world has changed, it's way different and stuff.
So, I think, you know, it would be better to not automate who can, you know, take your
money, okay?
So, I think certain amount of, of, of trust in, in not particular, you know, uh, you know,
family members or friends, but in, uh, you know, in, in, in, in today's time, we have
banks and notaries.
But does that answer it?
So, like, what if you die?
Someone had, you're saying you're, the will guy would have it, but, and you said, but he
needs your password.
So, how does he get your password?
So, yeah, so that's the, that's basically the last layer of, of society that, that is still
here in my, at least in my framing, because otherwise I don't have an answer for you.
So, here's how I think about it.
So, the, the, the last layer of society would be some, some, um, some body of the state or
something, or, or somebody that has, has, that knows that you die, right?
Because they have to know that you die, because otherwise you still have to pay taxes on shit.
You know how it is, right?
Uh, so somebody needs to know that you die.
Those people will have the authority or can then hand over to the, to the next person
who is in your family or who you have appointed.
And this is how we do it today, right?
In society.
So, that's the last layer.
I don't know how to remove it because I would have to trust, you know, a community of, of
people that I don't know.
So, I rather trust the government.
I know I shouldn't say that, but only in this particular case to know that, yes, I truly
died and then this should happen next.
And there are some humans who will execute it because that's their, their job.
Okay.
Uh, yeah.
I don't know what else to, to answer to this because, uh, yeah, but that's, that's what
I would do.
Yeah.
Right now.
I mean, to me, you just, the way you're saying it is you have two elements.
It's two factor.
You need a card and a password.
Yeah.
And you're, for those parties, you're going to have to trust someone.
Whereas what I was saying is it leaves like a social recovery type thing is it leaves
unlimited two factor.
It can be three factor, five factor, 10 factor.
Um, and you can choose how many of the factors you need, which is really interesting.
Uh, but I look, we're going to have lots of different, uh, different, uh, things in
the, in the future.
So it's fun that we're, at least people like, if I give the, if I give one card to a notary
and, and the passwords, uh, to the state or something that they know that they have to
hand it over, then they don't know each other.
Right.
Like nobody knows which notary I gave it to.
Like they, they cannot collude.
It's impossible.
I mean, it's not impossible, but it's low, low probability, but I have to say also, honestly,
that it's not perfect.
I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, but, but I don't want to trust, uh, people that
I've never seen before.
And that people that don't have any authority in society, because society is still a very
strong thing.
Okay.
A community is also a small society of people that believe in the same thing, but I want
to trust people that have been appointed.
They have taken some exam.
They have given a vow or whatever.
And, and I'm okay with that.
Okay.
Because if that breaks down, then we have, I don't know, anarchy or so.
All right.
So that's, you know, if you have anarchy, then not even crypto will save you because then
there is, you know, we have other issues.
But the problem is that I think that that has already broken down throughout society
many, many times that we trust people that have degrees or certifications or government
fancy titles.
And we trust these people and then we get, we get rugged, man.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Yeah.
We still have to work on this one.
I think the biggest problem is like, if you have self custody, it's like, you can't really
reveal your wealth.
Otherwise, you're in danger of, you know, getting, getting it stolen.
And that's, that's, that's one of the biggest benefit with the banks of that.
You do, you don't have to worry about your money getting stolen.
And I think, except, you know, through these big ass scams that banks do, which I guess
if, if a bank goes down, that is them stealing your money.
But I mean, I don't, yeah, I think at this point more than ever, it's impossible for us.
It's really, we can't say, yeah, the bank's not going to steal your money because it's just
happened too many times in history.
And banks go under, like you said, right, they go bankrupt or they mismanage funds or
they take risky plays or, or they just buy U.S. treasury bonds and, and the United States
increases interest rates so that the, the, the mark to market on the bonds is, you know,
not worth as much and they go under.
And so there's, there's just all these, these risks.
So hopefully we'll be able to solve these problems.
But yeah, I think what I'm, I think I, I definitely lean towards, you know, that don't
trust Verify and code is law over trust some big institution.
Yeah.
That would be amazing.
Yeah.
I just wanted to add some, some thoughts about that.
So when we are talking about crypto, right.
When we are talking about the, all pros of decentralization, yeah.
In the scope of security, we have to also, you know, remember and be careful not to be
returned back to the, to web two approach.
Right.
So, and, uh, on the one hand we have like, uh, decentralization, uh, private keys.
Yeah.
But on the other hand, we see the like dilemma, right.
So we see the problem that sometimes we need to, to wrap up our decentralization or
private keys to like, to the previous approach to, to web two, right.
With, with, with logins, with email.
So, yeah, I think we have to, to remember always about the balance, you know, about the,
the security glitches, something like that.
Yeah.
But it's funny because we, we have basically created what we have today, like a state and
society and a certain amount of job, a certain type of jobs that, that, that have authority
over things like your ID and, uh, your birth certificate and all this crazy shit, because
we didn't know what else to do.
Like, this is how we, I mean, I don't think it's collusion, you know, we didn't, this is
not like, uh, yeah, this is what just happened historically because we needed a solution for
the problem of who can actually say that you are the one that you say you are, right.
And stuff like this.
So we didn't have technology back then to figure it out.
So, you know, we created authorities, humans, uh, that take care, they get, they get the
authority to say you are this guy, but now we have technology.
Can we reinvent this and make it better?
I hope so.
But, uh, right now, uh, I don't think we're there yet, but that would be amazing.
Yeah.
So we had all these things, you know, there's been a lot of things in history where we needed
government to do the things.
And then over time we use technology, uh, to do the things to, to find solutions.
So, um, I, one example is, uh, gold.
The government was never, by the way, supposed to make money.
It's in the constitution that they're not allowed to make money.
The only money that they were allowed to make is coinage, meaning they can, they can stamp
a coin and say, this is one ounce of gold.
And the U S government certifies that this is real gold.
And it is, uh, and it is exactly one ounce.
And there's, you know, that way you're not having to weigh every time you used gold.
That's all they were supposed to do.
Uh, now they went way past that issuing dollars to the federal reserve, which is not technically
a government agency, whatever.
Or, okay, that's another story, but then now we have Bitcoin, uh, which, so we don't
need coinage, uh, we have private money.
So I think, yeah, the government and banks and lots of institutions over time do great
things that at the time are very necessary.
Like fiat currency actually really lubricated the economy, uh, in, in, in a lot of ways and
really helped us get to where we are.
But now we found a better way, I hope, and I hope we can find some better ways.
So we don't have to trust people with our inheritance that are going to go through these
like fights afterwards.
And we don't have to trust that, um, you know, the bank is not going to lose our money or
it's not going to take a risky investment on, uh, some like mortgage backed securities
or whatever.
Uh, the, that's the great thing about technology.
We find we're always finding new solutions to problems.
I wonder, I wonder what happens to the, the, the notion of state and government.
If we have a lot of power distributed amongst ourselves by having self custody, you know,
and community driven decision-making and stuff, social recovery, what is, what is the, the,
the role of the state in that future?
Because currently it's basically taking care of us, you know, in the sense that it has
rules, everyone has to abide.
So, um, I think I, I kind of get what you're saying there, Michael.
And, um, a little while ago, I read a book called the sovereign individual, which many
probably on this space I've heard of, or may have read.
And, um, one of the things that stuck out to me.
You still have, you know, police and military, does it still make sense?
Because there is no state, right?
Like we don't need them, right?
Because we can take care of our own stuff, but then who protects us?
I mean, it's a bit crazy question, but you know what I mean?
I think we might, you might be glitched.
Jack was answering you, but I think you can't hear him.
Was that Michael speaking, by the way?
Yeah, it was, Brock.
I think Michael kind of glitches in and out.
I don't know.
Can you hear me or what's going on?
I can hear you, Jack.
Michael can't hear you.
Um, but go ahead, Jack.
I'll let Michael know when you're done.
Yeah.
So I was, I was just going to say basically that, um, so I read this book, Sovereign Individual,
and I would recommend it to anybody on this podcast.
It's a really great book.
It was written, it's a little dated.
It was written in the nineties.
So, you know, a lot of the stuff that we take for granted now hadn't happened yet.
People were still concerned about the Y2K bug and all that kind of stuff.
So just read it with that understanding.
But one of the things that it talks about is that like, as, uh, the internet and, you
know, like the, the powers that that like affords all of us progresses, the ability to become
more and more sovereign becomes, uh, like more and more entrenched in society to the point
where eventually when you have a sovereign currency and when you have control over like
the ability to project yourself, not literally, but like, you know, like your presence through
social media or through online platforms to anywhere in the world, you know, you could
have citizenship in other countries.
Now recently we heard there's various Pacific Island nations offering digital nomad citizenship.
Rock me and you talked about that recently.
So it's like, you can basically live anywhere.
You have control over your own money and you know, you've got the ability to project your
presence anywhere in the world.
And so what happens is over time government realized that they're, they used to have a
monopoly on the state and the state is kind of like a service provider for all of your
basic safeguarding and infrastructural needs.
But if you have the, you know, if the average person over time gains the ability to choose
which state they want to be a part of instead of just having, you know, they're born in one
state and they die in that same state, then the government has to become a better, more
competitive service provider.
So they can do this in two ways.
Essentially they can entrap people and they'll try to do that and fail like the U S does with
its tax at the moment, you know, where they say like, even if you leave, even if you, you
know, you, you know, you go somewhere else, you don't live in the U S you still have to pay
tax in the U S that's like entrapment, um, or the better way that they can do it, which
is the way that they will all eventually come to is that they just have to be a better service
provider and to retain their users and their tax base, they need to become better and more
relevant in the 21st century.
And it was a really inspirational book.
I would recommend it to anybody on this, uh, spaces.
Yeah, it's a great book.
It's kind of crazy that it was written so early and it really kind of foretold a lot
of the things that the internet would bring.
And it feels like they're talking about cryptocurrency, you know, it's very prescient.
It's really strange.
Actually, when I read it, I, I thought it was much more relevant, much more, uh, recent.
And then they started talking about Y2K and I was like, Oh my God, this was, this is the
nineties and they saw all this, but yeah, it does.
It sounds exactly like they're talking about cryptocurrency, like that book could have come
straight out of, you know, something that safer Dean Animus might write, um, whether
it's the Bitcoin standard and the fiat standard and all that.
It's just like very, very similar trope to, to those books.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Um, and another point on security as well, we've talked a lot about security in terms
of theft, you know, and people conspire into steal funds or not trusting people.
Another element of security is the longterm risks that you take by holding a currency.
And so one thing that Bitcoin and cryptocurrency is really good at is predicting those longterm
risks.
So like with, you know, with Bitcoin, it's defined at the protocol level.
Everybody knows what it is.
It's only 21 million coins.
Um, you know, they're going to be minted on a particular schedule that's, that you can
track out, you know, a hundred years in the future.
Um, and that's really, really good because it mitigates the risk of theft through inflation,
which is a significant thing.
Like many developed nations at the moment are suffering double digit inflation and they
have done for a while.
Some nations, the unlucky ones are suffering triple digit inflation.
And it's just worth remembering that like not all theft is obvious theft.
It can be, you know, the more pernicious form of theft is the one that slowly steals from
you over the course of 20 years.
And, you know, you don't end up with any life savings.
So that's something we all need to consider as well.
Um, yeah, I think if you had your money and, um, I believe it was Lebanon, I think it's
like over the last five years, you've lost like 99% of your, your assets.
It was Lebanon or might be Argentina.
I don't remember.
But, uh, and if you, you know, you were in the U S for the last, uh, 90 years, you've
lost 99%.
So, you know, you, you, you've in 90 years, you basically have lost, if your family was
wealthy, uh, you know, generations ago, your, your, your wealth is gone.
Uh, if you didn't like find ways to like fight inflation.
So that's a problem.
That's a problem.
I think, uh, I think we should all be worried about that.
It's like, you know, if they just slowly take 2% of your, your money every year.
And, and by the way, even when they say inflation is 2%, if you use their own calculations from
the, the, the eighties, I think it is, uh, there's many estimates that inflation is actually
like 10 to 15%.
If you use their own calculations, the government's old calculations for CPI or whatever they called
it back then.
But now they just keep changing the calculation.
They keep manipulating the calculation.
So they could, uh, let me try to think of an example.
They could, uh, for example, let's say, um, uh, let's say there is inflation and let's say
it's 10%, but the basket that they're using for that inflation, it includes, let's say like,
uh, stuff like a calculator or, um, or, um, uh, I don't know, an accountant or, or whatever,
any things that they used to use that we've brought the cost close to zero through technology.
Now they can say, oh, well, there was deflation and they, they, they just literally cherry pick
a bunch of areas and say, oh, look, the cost of this used to be, you know, uh, a few hundred
dollars a month, but now that's almost free because you just do it on your smartphone.
Um, you know, for example, one, one, uh, that I saw that, uh, an example, someone mentioned that
they were using is, uh, let's say people used to go to, uh, concerts and you would go to say five
concerts a year.
Uh, and so they would allocate, you know, whatever, $1,500 for concerts.
Now they just say, oh no, no, we're, we're now people just do YouTube concerts or like virtual
conferences or, uh, concerts.
So instead of allocating that money to that, now we just say concerts only cost the amount
of a, a YouTube subscription or whatever.
So that this is, I mean, these are literally the kind of things they put into these baskets
to cheat the numbers, to make inflation not look so bad.
So I think like what you're getting out there is the hedonic adjustment, which is something
that they do to kind of massage the figures.
It's like the best example is, okay.
So, um, you know, people used to eat steak, sirloin steak, like a prime cup, and now they
eat ground beef.
Um, there's two reasons that could have happened.
It could be change in tastes, change in appetite, uh, which is, you know, possible, or it could
be that the, you know, the steak is now unaffordable and so less people are pursuing it, but that
doesn't mean that it should be weighted less than the inflation basket because the fact that
people are substituting a more expensive product from a, for a less expensive product is evidence
of inflation.
Um, so it should still be included.
And, you know, the other one that is using it as evidence of inflation, yeah, they use
it to hide inflation.
Yeah.
Which is kind of, you know, warped.
And then another way to look at it is like, so, okay.
So, you know, they may, they may include, for example, housing in the inflation basket.
Right.
But if, if the economy is really bad and, you know, housing is kind of unaffordable,
well, less people are going to buy houses.
But if you're not moving, inflation for you may be higher because in your, your personal
world, you know, you've not benefited from the fact that house prices have fell over the
last six months because people can't afford the new mortgage rates, right?
Since the, the Fed and the Bank of England and stuff put all the base rates up.
So, so if you've not moved that, that, that hasn't benefited you.
So like the, the core inflation might be something like, you know, 10% or 5%, but your personal
inflation might be 12% or 13% because you don't benefit from that reduced cost.
So it's like, yeah, it's, it's an important one to look at.
And the headline figure really doesn't mean much.
Um, if you look at it, I think the best way to, if you know anything about statistics,
you know, that they can be cherry picked very easily in almost any field.
If you, if you know how to cherry pick and lawyer the data and, and, you know, like twist
it and put a spin on it, you can twist anything.
And I can assure you the government's very good at that.
One chart that's really eyeopening about this is if you look at, um, it's basically
there's a chart that Forbes published a little while ago, which is the disconnect between
productivity and workers' compensations.
So this is like, it runs from 1948, this chart until 2014 on, on average, I think there's
something that differ, but around that.
And what you see is, you know, around the time they introduced fiat currency, they, they
just diverge completely.
And that's because, you know, like every year that that salary gets watered down a little
bit, this is kind of a similar reason why, you know, people used to be able to survive
in a one, one income household and now it's, you know, barely getting back on two incomes.
So basically it shows like it, so basically it shows that wage growth was increasing with
the same level of productivity.
So wage growth used to track productivity from 1948, which is the start of this chart
all the way up until basically like the seventies, wage growth tracks productivity almost exactly.
And then as you get the gold window closing, the U S coming off the gold standard, it diverges.
It's almost the right angle.
And this is like the, this idea that like it has got significantly more difficult.
Now there's other things that have happened as a result, you know, U S GDP, for example,
and like just in general, economic growth has been higher because the economy has been running
hot, but the benefits of that hasn't trickled down to the average person.
And one thing I would say is when you look at all this stuff, it's really difficult to
explain some of the things that have happened in the global economy over the last 50 years,
unless you realize that the money is broken.
And then as soon as you realize that the money's broken, that the problem is the money.
It's not the problem.
Isn't, you know, trade deficits.
The problem isn't worker productivity or anything else.
The product is that the actual thing that we use it to value the productivity of that labor
is broken, then you realize, okay, like that's where the issue is.
And you track it all the way back.
And yeah, it's, it's a really interesting one to look at.
And it also means, you know, the reason why this affects the poorest people in society
more than the more wealthy is because, you know, poor people intergenerationally don't
hold any assets.
And so you get, you feel the full force of the inflation, whereas middle-class people
and people that are more well-off, their families will hold assets.
And so they'll be, they'll be carried up along with the inflation.
Whereas the average person that isn't holding any assets, they just get dragged along by the
force of inflation, which is, you know, much worse.
So yeah, it's, it's an interesting topic.
And while, while we're talking about security, I thought I'd bring it up because, you know,
the one thing that is for certain is that if you're on a fiat currency, the security of
your money is going to zero in the longterm because somebody is definitely stealing X percent
per year.
That's a good way of looking at it.
So we're sitting here worried about, you know, hacks because that's more scary because
a hack, you lose everything all at once.
It's much more clear, but in, in fiat currency, uh, you're basically being hacked slowly for
2% a year.
And, and for the last couple of years, it's been more like to 80%, depending on your country.
Think about how brutally, uh, the, the Venezuelan people were hacked when Maduro took over and
hyperinflated the currency.
It wasn't a hack like the bolivars in the bank account didn't disappear, but the purchasing
powers of the bolivars on the street definitely did disappear.
And so it's basically a hack.
Like you have to look at it like that.
Sometimes you get these big monetary shocks, you know, by my Germany is another one.
I've just finished reading, uh, when money dies, that was a really good one, uh, about
the by my Republic.
And this is like a really important thing to wrap your head around.
Like all fiat currencies are trending towards zero, absolute zero.
Some, some get there really quick.
So some will go, you know, from, from, you know, purchasing parity with gold to like literally
zero in two months because they're run by people that don't know how to slowly manage
an economy and other ones will trend more regularly to zero.
But the bottom line is they're all going to zero.
And so like, you know, safeguarding your money one-on-one is you need to, you need to have
scarce assets.
You know, what's cool is, um, about, uh, like inflation and gold.
Just, I thought of this random, uh, fun fact, but, uh, if you go back to like, uh, the Roman
empire and you look at what it, uh, so, uh, uh, uh, a fancy, like, uh, was it togas?
The, the, the things they would wear, uh, cost about, uh, about an ounce of gold and, uh,
like for a nice one, uh, and now like a nice suit costs about the same.
So like gold has basically just held, uh, you know, for a long time as opposed to, you
know, if you, uh, use the amount of money to buy a fancy suit in, uh, you know, in 1900,
uh, to now, uh, it would be like a hundred times the price.
So kind of an interesting thing to think about.
I see we have Michael in the audience, by the way, from, uh, Decentral conferences.
How you doing, man?
Hey, Hey, I've, uh, I've actually switched away from Decentral and now I'm working on Termina.
Okay.
I didn't know.
What's this?
Uh, decentralized trust structures on the blockchain.
So I'll kind of like think of it as, uh, just bringing trust structures from the traditional
side over to the blockchain side.
Is Decentral still around going on or?
Decentral still, Decentral still going on.
I just, uh, stepped down to switch over on a new focus.
Oh, I didn't know you were stepping down.
Wow.
Yeah.
I decided to switch over to build remote.
So the past like month I've been heads down, just nonstop building.
Cool.
Um, do you want to mention what that is?
Does it, how it might pertain to security?
Yeah.
So if you look at like, um, well, there's two types of, uh, ways that can kind of pertain
to security.
One would be the compliance layer.
So like traditional finance structures, like traditional finance companies can't get into
the blockchain too much.
So that's why they file ETFs.
So if you look at like BlackRock, Vanguard, like all of those, all of those ETFs are statutory
trust structures, um, which actually allows you to have shares within a trust.
Um, so what we're doing is we're trying to bridge that layer and also, um, bridge it over
to the blockchain side.
So it allows Dallas to have competitive advantage against others as well.
So having a trust, but basically right now you have a trust, you have it in a certain
state and that state allows you to be a grantor.
You have a trust manager or trustee and then a beneficiary on the blockchain.
It's similar.
It's basically Alice allows Bob to send to Charlie, uh, to Charlie.
Um, and it also has benefits to it as well.
So where you can have a trust manager, manage your trust accounts, manage your assets, or
you can have a revocable and irrevocable, but there's standards now that allow this to
happen.
So that's why we're kind of like in self mode a little bit.
Um, we haven't fully publicly announced that like what we're, what we're kind of like
having for it.
Uh, but trust structures opened up a whole new door for the next layer of like DeFi to
kind of actually be facilitated and into a compliance layer that allows traditional companies to
now come into crypto.
So basically trust on the blockchain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not like, so the trust has two words, right?
Like two meanings.
One is that, you know, it's a, it's a policy.
One's like a trust structure with like the traditional policies.
The other one is like, I trust you, but in kind of terms, like one of them is going to
be on paper.
One of them has, you know, uh, has it to where it's a legal structure.
And while the other one is going to be, you know, I trust you to, you know, I'll send
money to you or things like that.
Like I trust you as a friend, you know.
Speaking of, I'll see you at your bachelor party next month.
11th and 12th, 11th and 12th.
And your wedding and your wedding.
I should turn and the wedding.
Cool.
All right.
Um, did anyone else, any speakers, uh, have anything else they wanted to talk about with
security?
Do we have any more topics we wanted to discuss?
Yes.
I wanted to say something about security real quick.
Yeah.
And then also if anyone in the audience wants to jump up and speak, uh, please request.
We'll try to get some audience members up today.
Uh, and, uh, yeah.
And we want to just tell everyone in the audience how much we appreciate all you guys.
Elon Musk vs. Mark Zuckerberg.
That's the topic.
Yeah.
What's that?
Oh, the, the, the, well, I was just going to get everybody's opinions on who's going to
win, but yeah, they're going to do, they're going to fight, right?
This is like a UFC match.
No, they're not.
Dana White.
The rumor mill is swirling, but I've heard that Dana White has confirmed that they are
interested.
That's insane.
I saw some tweet.
I thought it was a joke.
I wonder what Mark's getting.
Anyway, let's let Michael wrap up on security before we go into that rabbit hole.
Yeah.
So like right now, one of the biggest things for Dallas is mostly going to be the security
side.
Um, if you look at like what they have as a current standard right now is like a one token,
one vote type of portion, or they have like sub governance levels for their security.
But we've seen over time that, uh, Dallas aren't autonomized.
So I call them dues because the autonomacy layer of it relies on heavy, heavy security
that allows it to fully interact with each other.
Right.
To have a compliance, uh, compliancy through the DAO members.
I think that with creating a separate structure for them, you're able to have the compliance
also be routed into traditional standards.
So for example, like the security is very, very important in the traditional finance side.
Like you have to have the compliance managers.
You have to have multiple protocols that are going in place in case of anything that's
happening.
You have to have security, um, insurance for the security and things like that.
In a DAO, if something happens to where one member goes rogue and it causes a, uh, a coup,
uh, in a DAO, you see DAOs split.
So like, it's still very primitive for like DAOs right now to, to look into the security
side of it, but they need to be, you know, they need to be secure with their assets.
And that's only one layer of it.
The governance has to also be another security layer that they have to focus on as well.
Um, and separate those two powers.
So separating the governance of security from the governance of the funds as well.
Um, if you look at like the U S system, you know, the, uh, the, uh, the, the, the treasury
is separated from the government and it's separated from each category.
So they have to have a hierarchy structure of security, um, instead of having a full
generalized fund, because like right now, a lot of them do have sub wallets that are
not pulled back to the main wallet and they just require separate trusts.
Uh, like basically, Hey, this is the marketing department.
This is the VD department.
This is the separate department, but all of them aren't utilized in that way.
They're utilizing the full general fund, which is mixture of assets, right?
Everyone's mixed in one generalized fund that then delegates down to the others.
Um, what you need to do is set a hierarchy structure that allows them to say, Hey, marketing
manager submitted a proposal, CMO can approve, but a CMO, if he wants to submit a transaction
on the marketing side, wouldn't have to have an approval of the, of the marketing manager
or the consensus.
Cause then it leads to slower decisions.
And that's why I think that DALs aren't fully utilized to that next level of hierarchy yet,
because they need the security side of it to have, uh, to be able to delegate codes.
Interesting, uh, D thought, D dot five, uh, you've got your hand up.
Hey, yeah, absolutely.
Um, by the way, I just have to say, this has been a great, uh, space so far.
I've really enjoyed listening to, um, our conversations about like the various different,
just aspects of wallet security.
And there's, there's, there's so many things that I think have been brought up so far that,
um, I think sometimes some of us don't even think about and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's
really great to have spaces like these that just seem, feel very organic just to have
these sort of like discussions.
Um, yeah.
So one of the things, uh, I mean, like that I wanted to also, I wanted to mention, um,
from the DeFi side is, uh, so for us, you know, like our, our sort of focus on security
is, uh, more on like the smart contracts, smart contract security side.
And, um, and yeah.
And I think that like, this is a really important angle as well.
Um, in addition to all the other, I would say angles of security, I think that are also
very valuable.
Um, but yeah, I just wanted to say that like, in terms of like smart contract security,
we're, uh, it's so important, I think for like users, especially for users that are
dabbling in like DeFi protocols and liquidity pools and just like, you know, various different
forms of sort of like yield farming.
Um, there, a lot of them are just like constantly engaging at various different smart contracts.
And most of the time, you know, we don't, we have no idea what's safe, what is not.
We sort of try to like do a little bit of our, you know, our own research on, uh, on
whether a project looks legit, but I'd say half the time, a lot of people are really just
taking, uh, just risks, right.
Just, uh, and, and sort of kind of like, um, sometimes hoping for the best.
Um, so I would say like, it's really important.
It's, it's really valuable to have tools that I would say help users and just make it easier
for them to sort of identify, uh, if a token or a smart contract is risky or not.
And I think that, you know, that's sort of something that we are, uh, have been focusing
on from, from the DeFi side with our crypto, uh, crypto antivirus that we sort of like recently
launched in the last, uh, I'd say like few months.
We did like, um, a partnership, a really big announcement campaign in partnership with, uh,
phantom and arbitrum and, uh, gnosis and, uh, yeah.
And the, so the crypto antivirus suite that we have sort of been building out is, uh, it's
essentially like a suite of tools, right?
And so it's like the shield, the scanner and the rec database and, uh, and the way the shield
works, it's essentially when you connect your wallet and you can connect as many wallets
as you like, uh, we support a lot of different wallets.
Um, but, uh, when you connect your wallet, it'll scan through all of your wallet, but
more specifically, it's scanning through like the smart contract codes that you, smart contracts
like that you have ever approved.
And some of these things that you'll notice that you've may have deposited or invested
in something that you completely forgot about.
I think we all do this.
And then when we connect to like a portfolio dashboard, we discover things that, you know, we've invested
in maybe years ago that have appreciated and boomed, um, you know, fingers crossed.
But, um, but yeah, so, so that's the way it works.
It'll scan through and it'll look for any sort of vulnerabilities that are detected in the
code.
It sends an alert signal.
So it notifies the user right away what the, what the issue is, what the threat is, and
then a user can simply revoke from that contract.
So essentially disconnecting the tokens, the access that that contract has to their tokens.
So it's, uh, it's, uh, in their wallet.
Um, but I think a common question that comes up is how do we identify what is a risk and,
and what is a threat and what is not?
And I think that's an important question.
Um, so I would say like, you know, we often take into account a lot of different data.
So we take a look at, is there a governance, is there a multi-sig, uh, um, available, uh,
is the, are the contracts verified?
You know, has this project been around for a long time?
Um, so there's a lot of data, a lot of this data that's taken into consideration before
something, uh, before a threat, uh, before something is considered in flagged as a threat.
Um, because unlimited minting might not be considered an issue on one project, but, or on an, but
in another contract, it may, it would be, you know, if the, if there's proxy issues in unverified
contracts.
So, yeah, so that's something I just wanted to mention.
And then the scanner we have is also a much more advanced version of that.
Um, you know, I'd say there's a lot of smart contract scanning tools and services that are
out there.
And, uh, what we've noticed is, um, a lot of them primarily focus on tokens and NFTs, because
I think that's probably the most that's commonly used.
Um, but, uh, it's really important because I think a lot of people were, a lot of us are,
are, are often, you know, when we're sort of like exploring staking contracts and, you
know, liquidity pools, and there's all sorts of different contracts, you know, that are
out there right now.
Um, so it's, and of course, safety and security is, is an issue everywhere, right?
In, in all, in all smart contracts.
So, so that's one thing that we definitely, uh, have been making an effort to do is, uh,
for the scanner, it scans all smart contract types.
So not just tokens and NFTs, but liquidity pools, staking, uh, vaults.
I mean, you name it, all sorts of different contract types.
So that's why if you're curious about investigating the security and you just want to do like a
quick audit, a fast audit, you can definitely use a scanner and it'll do that for you.
It's very fast, but it does go in depth.
So it's not like a basic, a scanner.
It is an advanced scanner, um, for sure.
Cause it'll do like a stand static and dynamic, uh, approach and analysis, uh, for even a
developer, uh, side.
So, yeah, I just sort of wanted to mention that.
And, um, and if anybody, I don't know if, if, if people here do research on different
hacks or these kinds of things, uh, we have a rec database that's available.
So DeFi is actually the creator of the, the largest database in the world for crypto scams
and, uh, hacking exploits.
So a lot of media often will use it whenever they're doing, writing an article on like a
crypto scam, because there's, they'll just be able to find a lot of data there.
So, yeah, I just wanted to share that.
I don't know if anybody wanted to add anything to smart contract security.
I got a question.
Do you guys actually, for the asset management side, do you guys do it to where there's
restrictions for us, uh, for certain contracts as well?
If you, if you, let's say for example, like instead of revoking and, you know, like there
was an exploit on, you know, a certain protocol, does it have the function to revoke all of
them, um, autonomously, or is it going to be like, they have to like get a notification and
then manually, uh, revoke it?
Uh, let's say also, yeah, that's just information.
Yeah.
I think on our side, you can, you can open, uh, the wallet and you can just.
Uh, attach your wallet and you will see the whole list of, uh, approvals related to this
wallet on multiple chains.
So yeah, it's, it's pretty easy for you just to see, uh, all what you need on one page.
So like, so you just get to see it.
So like, let's say for example, one of the protocols that we interacted with is now, you
know, something happened to it where the smart contract was, uh, you know, altered and stuff
like that.
Um, would it be, do you guys have a portion to where it's like, we can allow revoke access?
Uh, cause like I'm looking at it from the compliance side of like having like some of the financial
institutions kind of like be able to have revoke access, uh, distributed.
So where there's going to be a hack or anything that the entire system is still going to be
able to revoke that portion until, you know, once again, you mean like notification system
or something like that, right?
So when, when, when it would virgo, uh, yeah.
So we have this feature in, by the way, we have this feature in development right now.
We're going to, um, uh, allow users to, to subscribe their wallets for the notifications.
And the, one of the notifications will be like, uh, the, the, some, some sort of hacks,
uh, related to the approvals related to this wallet.
Yeah.
This is the, this is what we, this is what we want to also to do, to deliver soon.
I think maybe, maybe in the scope of one or two months.
We also have, um, so for, uh, just sort of like a comparison, there's some like revoking
tools that are out there where you have to pick, uh, you have to select the chain that
you're sort of want to see the contracts, you know, smart contract threats for.
Um, and so for, for, for the shield, uh, you don't need to do that.
It'll actually just show you the smart contracts for all 15 chains that it supports.
If you have approved any smart contracts on any of the 15 chains that we support.
Um, but also we have where you can revoke all, uh, contracts at once.
And we also, you have the, you have the option to revoke all or revoke individual contracts.
Um, that's perfect.
I was looking for the revoke all portion and, uh, individual ones as well.
Um, both of them are going to be useful just for like the client side, whenever we kind
of like onboard compliance partners, uh, to the stress structure.
So I'll, I'll definitely follow up.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that's like, um, that, that's a really, that's a really good question.
And that's, that's, that's come up before.
Um, and, uh, and for people who want to understand that deeper.
So like, say for example, you're, uh, you know, you're, you're going, you're dabbling
in a protocol, a DeFi, a different protocol.
There's like deposit, you know, deposit contracts, staking contract, uh, liquidity pool contract,
maybe a swap, um, or a token specific token contract.
And so say now you've, you have maybe, uh, six contracts, right.
That you have approved of those six, maybe three of them are, have been flagged as it's
detected some high risk vulnerabilities.
So on the DeFi shield, it'll show you all three that have been flagged of the three.
Perhaps you want to revoke just one.
Maybe you don't think the other two are an issue.
So that's where you have the option to revoke individual contracts.
But of course, no problem.
It's definitely easier to be able to revoke all and, uh, um, you know, which is recommended
for, for, for better, greater safety.
Yeah, I actually, um, use the DeFi to just scan a wallet that I had, um, just, I usually,
I used it like during 2021 for like NFT mints and just general sketchy stuff.
Uh, like just, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I scanned that wallet and basically just, uh, ghosted
it, just dusted the wallet.
There was, there was so much stuff in there that was just like, never use this wallet ever
again, please.
So I just, just basically got rid of it.
I think that's what DeFi said.
That's what D.Fi said.
Well, they didn't tell me, but, uh, yeah.
I mean, it basically had like this, this contract, uh, it actually goes into detail of why it
doesn't like the contract.
So it'll say that like this, this gives access to this, or, um, I mean, if you, if you've
got, um, like a token, it'll say this has a blacklist function.
This one's a honeypot.
This one, um, has like infinitely mintable tokens.
And I mean, some of them obviously, um, like circle, uh, uh, put, um, USDC into the scanner
and I didn't actually see the infinite mintable, um, USDC as an issue because obviously it's,
it's like regulated and it's through a multi-sig or something.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I put a couple of sketchy tokens in there and I actually, it gave
me a few issues.
Um, so that, um, USDC has, by the way, it has real quick.
USDC not only is infinitely mintable, but it also, um, has essentially admin keys, right?
So they can actually, if you move money in USDC on Ethereum, I, I'm, I'm pretty sure they
can freeze it, reverse it, whatever they want.
Right.
Well, both of them have it.
USDT and USDC has routers.
So whenever you're sending transactions, it goes through the routers and then the routers
can have it, whether it's flag flagged as a blacklisted address, and then it stops it
in the router.
Can it reverse?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It can reverse it as well.
It's kind of crazy that, you know, I'm not even a hundred percent sure on that.
I was pretty sure, but, uh, I didn't know about USDT also.
So it's like crazy that we're using these things and storing so much value in these things that
we don't even understand, uh, some of the implications.
Yeah, for sure.
And stable coins, you know, everybody should remember this, like the only reason you should
be using stable coins, two reasons is one, uh, if you temporarily need to hold funds between
DeFi transactions or between buying another coin, not to store value longterm.
Or if you feel that the opportunity costs for not holding them for a period of time is greater.
So for example, if the market is like incredibly unstable for a period of time, but do remember
like stable coins are essentially like reward free risk.
So, you know, that's something to consider and, um, on what you were saying before, um, Darren
with regarding to the wallet use for the DJ and stuff, I think this is like an interesting
point that we should talk about is like the security layer system that a lot of people
use, which is like, they'll have, uh, they'll have several wallets, right?
So your, your first layer of wallet is like your, well, basically like a kind of, uh, DJ
wallet, which you can use to connect to whatever you want, basically.
And you don't store any funds in there for any length of time.
The only reason you would use it is to connect to a website or whatever.
So you should explain like what, what you mean when you say these are so like in, in
MetaMask.
Right.
Yeah.
So, okay.
Yeah.
So, well, not just MetaMask, but yeah.
So for example, you would have, um, uh, let's say a layer one hot wallet, right?
So that hot wallet, um, you won't ever store funds in for a long period of time.
You'd only move stuff in there to do something specific and you would change that wallet.
Let's say every few months to stop like permissions and stuff building up.
That's like layer one layer two might be like a transfer hot wallet.
So this is for moving, you know, more significant amounts of funds.
You don't really connect that to any, any, uh, NFT mints or anything like that, or anything
sketchy, any DeFi protocols.
You just use it to move funds around to make it a little easier.
Then you would have, you know, a centralized exchange wallet for on and off Ram.
And then you would have, and that again, you wouldn't store any funds in there.
That's just for, uh, transferring in and out into Fiat.
And then you would have cold storage split into, you know, multiple brands.
So you'd have, you know, 50% Ledger, 50% Trezor or, you know, 30, 30, 30 with cold card
or whatever.
Um, and then if you do that, you kind of like, you, you set yourself up in a situation where
if you are going to get hacked, you know, like the, the most obvious thing is the thing
that has the least value.
And so if you get compromised, you may get notified earlier than, you know, like them
getting into your, the stuff that you actually want to keep because, you know, you may get
drained for your, uh, hot wallet and then you can go back and review where you, where
you lost your security and then reinstate everything.
That's kind of a system that a lot of people use, which is like, it's like layered approach.
It's just worth mentioning because we all like to do things like NFT mints or experiment
with new DeFi protocols.
But when you do that, you're, you should basically use a burner wallet because you don't really
know like this, you can have an educated guess about the security and you can review the
audits and stuff if you go deep, but a lot of people don't think like that.
They just think, you know, let's click and mint these NFTs quickly before they sell out.
So if you're going to do that, just make sure you use a fresh wallet.
Um, and then if something goes wrong, you've only lost those mint funds rather than like,
you know, a lot.
Yeah.
It's worth considering.
Yeah.
You could quickly just scan the contract on D.5 apparently.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Cool.
So, uh, do we have anyone from the audience, uh, that has any questions today?
We went pretty deep on, on security and like a bunch of different aspects.
Um, this is a dense topic, uh, but an important one that, that everybody needs to do their
homework on any, uh, if any audience members want to request, come up and ask questions.
If anybody else has any comments, if, if anyone didn't understand a lot of this and want some
clarification, uh, feel free.
Now's your chance to come up while we're waiting on that.
Um, and we, maybe we'll stop a little early today, but in, unless we have, uh, some community
members who want to speak, or even if you just want to say hi, by the way, guys, uh,
give a, send flowers to someone, uh, or, uh, say something about Polygon.
This is all roads lead to Polygon.
And we didn't talk about Polygon too much today.
Uh, but if anyone has anything they want to say there, uh, or if you just want to drop
a heart in the audience, uh, I'm going to do some shout outs for some community members.
So in the audience we've got, uh, and I'm following people by the way, as I shout you
out and I, I recommend the audience, follow the speakers, follow each other.
Uh, if you see someone in the audience that looks like, uh, they might have some interest
to you, you want to follow them, give them a follow.
We've got Makita, we've got DJ, DG pals, and we've got a Doge chain report.
We've got Lisa Marie.
We've got Milton DeSalza.
We've got El Dutorino.
So, Hey El Dutorino, I see your, uh, your new profile pic.
Finally, it finally caught up, uh, the caveman.
That's pretty, that's pretty bad-ass man.
Uh, real Doge punk shout out.
Um, we got Chad Carter.
We got Patrick.
We got the crypto Canuck.
We've got DeFi addict, rainbow, Enrique, Roberto, PRDT, Graham, King Papa, Dev Omega,
Poppin' Doge, uh, Hello Javin.
We've got Mark Ocasio, German Bombshell, JCrypto, Planet IX, TH Ross, Katz the Timeless, Kika,
and Mark, Donobah, Collective Finance, Atling Koolha, Dimitri Vikt, Merge Z, NFTs.
We've got ETH, ETH, daily dot ETH, subscribe to the podcast, it says.
We've got Lixani Pittman, I'm following you back.
We've got Merge, uh, Z, oh, I said that one.
Alex with, uh, some cat ears.
Hey, real quick, um, if anybody has an opinion on Mark Zuckerberg v. Elon Musk, feel free to raise your hand.
I mean, Elon's a big dude, right?
I definitely would like to see some neat versus rock first.
Well, there's a, if anybody's been following the Ben ETH, uh, PSYOP saga, there's a, apparently a kind of Ben ETH, uh, V, uh, I can't remember who it is now, but basically two D-Gens that might be fighting in Vegas.
So, yeah.
That would be great.
Seems like it's the, the Royal Rumble season.
But, uh, yeah.
Elon is big.
I love this concept of famous people fighting each other for our entertainment.
I think it's what we all really want to see deep down.
It's not, it's not building rockets.
It's just a bunch of people.
I've got a Roman Coliseum all over again.
Yeah, for sure, man.
I mean, like, it's more, it's obviously, like, better when they don't know how to fight as well.
Like, I've heard Zuck's been training Jiu-Jitsu quite a lot, though, so maybe he'd kick Elon's ass.
But, uh, I don't know, man.
It seems like a crazy thing for either of them to do.
Like, it's not going to be, one of them is, right now, who knows who's the better fighter.
But when one of them walks out, it's going to be, you know, either Elon kicked Zuckerberg's ass, which I'd be rooting for.
Or Zuckerberg kicks Elon's ass.
And then we're all kind of sad.
So, I don't know.
There's, what's, it's kind of a weird ROI, uh, stunt.
I guess it's just fun.
And hopefully, like, if they both walk away from it and just say, hey, this was fun, you kicked my ass, whatever, I guess it's cool.
Elon always goes for the most entertaining outcome, right?
That's what he tends to do.
True.
You know, and it's pretty privileged for us to be on a timeline where we've got the billionaires fighting for our entertainment.
You know, in the Roman Coliseum, the emperors and the senators never got in there and got their hands dirty, you know?
Yeah, it would be pretty fun to watch.
Elon's a pretty big dude, though, right?
And Zuckerberg seems pretty scrawny.
Yeah, Zuck's got a jujitsu.
He might be okay against Elon.
I think it's going to be pretty entertaining.
But I got to hop it out.
I want to do a quick shout out real quick.
I recently interviewed him.
You guys want to watch it?
Just follow me.
It's on my profile.
Rock also commented on it as well.
It really dives pretty deep into, like, the early side of his childhood and everything.
And it kind of gives you a vision to kind of, like, see how, you know, how everyone is growing up and how everyone sees the world besides just, you know, the product that everyone has produced and committed to the ecosystem.
Yeah, it was a good interview, man.
It was cool to see a lot.
It was different than most of the interviews we've seen of Sandeep.
So, yeah.
How can we find that?
I think we could just click your profile here and they'll be able to find it on your Twitter.
Yeah, yeah.
Let me see if I can share it on here, too, before I hop off.
Yeah.
And d.fi is raising the hand.
I'm not a co-host, so I can't see if people are requesting to speak at all.
We have, I think we have ParityBit.
Were they on?
No, they were already on.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
But, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I know.
I just wanted to also mention, I almost forgot, since we're, like, on the security topic, I wanted to mention, so, DeFi, we're actually going to be hosting a security event in October around ETH Milan.
And so, it's going to be October 4th.
So, I just wanted to share this with everybody, since there's a lot of people here in the security space.
Yeah.
So, it's going to be a really big DeFi and Web3 security event.
It's going to be October 4th.
And we're going to be inviting a lot of our partners, of course, in the security space or their security teams as speakers.
But I think it's going to be a really great event.
I'd love to invite everybody out to come join us and also to join us at ETH Milan.
And, yeah, I think it'll be great.
We'd love to be able to showcase various different security projects and various different topics that are also touching the space.
Everything from chain, wallet security, and even ones that I may not even be completely aware about.
We just chatted with Lossless not that long ago, and I thought they had a really, really interesting security approach.
So, yeah.
So, we're really excited to showcase a few projects there and topics.
How can people find out more about this event?
Great question.
So, we haven't launched our website to this yet.
It's going to be coming out, I'd say, in the next couple weeks.
So, keep your eye out on our Twitter.
We'll be posting it on our Twitter, also on Telegram.
And so, yeah.
Keep an eye out for that.
We'll be doing a lot of marketing for it.
It's going to be October 4th.
Yeah, October 4th in the line.
Are you in the All Roads Lead to Polygon, the builder group?
I am.
Cool.
Yeah, share it there for all of us.
All right.
Sounds good.
All right.
Great.
All right.
We've got a quiet audience today.
Nobody requested to come up and ask questions.
I mean, I guess everybody got all they wanted about security.
And more.
We probably should touch on the POS upgrade at some point.
Sorry, I lost you.
What was that?
We should probably touch on the POS upgrade to Validium.
Did I just butcher that name?
Um, yeah.
Does anyone, uh, so I think the idea here is, uh, yeah, it's pretty cool.
So POS will be, be upgrading, uh, and we'll, I guess from my understanding, and I still need
to dive more, more deeply into this, but, uh, we'll, we'll, the idea with like Polygon 2.0
and, and this upgrade and all this is, um, what we've been envisioning for a long time with super nets, which is that, um, all Polygon chains will be fully interoperable.
And I think by, by using rollups, it, um, it becomes a lot more achievable because of the
way the interoperability works between rollups.
I still don't quite understand it, but from, from what I understand, because all the rollups
will, will roll up to Ethereum, um, different rollups on, on Polygon, uh, and actually with
other rollups, uh, I think even possibly optimistic rollups, but I'm not sure can now, um, have
like a new, um, a new dimension of, of interoperability where I hope the ultimate goal, what it sounds
like, and I, I still, like I said, need to dive deeper into it, but it sounds like you may
have actual composability between these chains so that you can build, you know, for example,
like a liquidity management tool on one chain, that's using the liquidity on say quick swap
on POS or on ZKVM, or you can build convex on one chain and it uses the liquidity of curve,
uh, on, on another chain.
So that's my understanding.
Does anyone else have, uh, thoughts or opinions on this?
I'm not entirely sure about the composability, but from the actual security standpoint, it's
actually more secure than, um, the POS chain, but less secure than CKEVM.
So, I mean, I, I wasn't initially sure what the goal was, but I think, um, it's actually
more scalable than, than the CKEVM chain.
I mean, I, obviously the downside to most side chains is that they don't actually post
back, um, state changes or like transaction data to Ethereum.
Um, which, which usually means you're relying on poly, which, yeah, it means you're relying
on Polygon to provide you with like the, the transaction data information and not Ethereum.
Uh, so Validium, uh, basically is, it's going to be doing the computations off chain and then
post Validium proofs, um, containing that result, like back to Ethereum, but it doesn't actually
contain the transaction data, um, where CKEVM will actually contain the transaction data.
Um, so they basically have a verifier, a smart contract on, on Ethereum, um, which the Validium
submit, submits the proofs to.
Um, so obviously in Polygon's case, the, the validity proofs are like zero knowledge proofs
that contain the, the result of the transactions, but not the actual transaction data itself.
Um, so obviously it's better than POS because it's, it's more scalable because, uh, it like,
uh, reduces the amount of like data that Ethereum has to process, even though it's
dampened to Ethereum.
So, I mean, it's, it's going to be much more scalable than, than ZKEVM even, even as an
example, because it has less data pair transaction.
Um, but it, and, and also it is still more secure than POS because it's still actually
stamping these, uh, validate proofs to Ethereum.
Um, so yeah, I mean, it, it, so what does that mean for, I mean, the security thing is,
is it important and that's our topic today, but to me, what's most important is the interoperability
and, uh, and the composability.
So I'm wondering how that will all work together.
I'm assuming it has to work within the super nets or Polygon 2.0 framework, right?
Because it's the main Polygon chain.
And so it would be silly if it didn't.
Um, but like, this is what I'm, I'm hearing is, I mean, that's the ultimate goal is the
composability.
So, uh, but I still don't have a clear answer or, you know, understanding on will these things
be composable?
So, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure on that.
Um, it's just, obviously I think that the main goal is that one chain will be better suited
for scalability, which will be the, the Vildium and then one chain will be, uh, ZKVM, which
is, is obviously more suited to security, which will be like, uh, maybe like, uh, industrial
level stuff that, um, they want the actual security of, of Ethereum.
Um, from what I've been hearing and I've been listening to a bunch of interviews, it sounds
like there will be composability, maybe not right away, but that's the ultimate goal.
Yeah.
I mean, the, um, the posts and stuff, they, they, they have been putting out mention, um,
mention that.
Yeah.
They definitely hinting at it.
Um, does anyone else have any insights on this?
Any, any tech nerds who are smarter than me and, uh, Darren here?
We're the cute ones.
Maybe you are.
I'm just a panda.
Who did that?
That was good.
Patrick was waiting on that.
Yeah, that was me guys.
I was just, Rock was saying like 10 minutes ago, he wants, he wants to end the spaces.
But I'm like, no, you're not going to end it for like another 30 minutes, man.
I, I look forward to the Fridays for this.
So please don't.
It's not a real Friday unless Rock shows up late to the Doge Chain spaces.
Yeah, I know the last few weeks I've been late to the Doge Chain one because we were going
so long on this one.
We actually have a couple of speaker requests up there.
So hopefully there's more than us.
Let's bring them up.
Yeah.
Let's bring them up.
Let's bring them up.
Let's bring them up.
Let's bring them up.
Lisa Marie, come say hi.
We've got, yeah, Crypto Connect, if you want to say hi.
Rainbow, anyone, come up and say hi, guys.
This is all about the community.
It's the whole reason we host these spaces is for the community.
So we'd love to have any of you guys, even if you don't have to say anything profound,
just a hello or whatever.
You're welcome to come up.
Hello?
You just said hi.
That's a bit of profound.
Oh, was that Patrick?
I thought that was someone else.
It was me.
I've added Arian to the speaker panel and Abo, that may have butchered that name.
Yeah.
Just feel free to chip in.
I met Patrick yesterday with your friends over at I heard something about it.
Yeah, man.
I look forward to hearing more about it, how it was.
Yeah.
I have nothing profound to say, but I just wanted to say hi, because, you know, I love
being here every Friday with you guys.
Aww.
Aww.
Perfect.
Cheers, Lisa.
We've got Awal Abad Jihad on stage.
Hello.
You're muted if you're speaking.
We've also got Planet IX.
I think they were doing a giveaway today.
Thanks, Planet IX.
Yeah, we've got a giveaway pinned at the top there.
Yeah, Planet IX is pretty, like, interesting.
I'd like to hear more about them, actually.
Planet, you want to tell us anything about Planet IX?
Yeah, they're still running that huge airdrop.
I think that's like $2 million worth of an airdrop.
You can check that out on their site.
Okay, Awal, you're unmuted.
What's up?
How you doing?
We can't hear you, if you're speaking, or I might be bugged.
No, I can't hear anything.
Come on, guys.
Don't be afraid.
Okay, we've got yabtech.hub.
You want to say hello?
They're just up here taking strange shots today.
We lost a wall jihad.
They panicked.
Maybe they're scared for you guys.
We don't bite.
Let's add to the workout, and everyone has to do, like, 50 push-ups if we don't say anything.
Are you walking?
I did that on a...
Are you walking, Rob?
No, I stopped.
My leg was kind of hurting, honestly.
Last week, though, I did the half marathon on spaces.
That was fun.
How far was it?
It's like 13 point something miles.
Nice.
Good one.
I was walking most of the time, but I'll still count it.
I'm going to start using the Peloton next Friday, so you're encouraging me to do that instead of sitting down during meets.
Yeah, absolutely.
If you can use the Peloton for, you know, the hours that we're on the spaces, you're going to have some beast legs.
I'm still scared to go for a walk, just because, I mean, if Rock rugs, he just gets back up.
If I rug, then everyone gets sad.
I'm basically just hiding the house.
You know, I will say Twitter's been much more reliable lately.
We haven't been seeing as many glitches and bugs.
I mean, Aztec, he got, like, many rugs still.
Yeah, he seems to get rugs a lot.
I would think I would, because I'm leaving my house and going into normal world and then coming back to Wi-Fi.
I would think I would have it more, but I've been not too bad.
I think Aztec just uses that to make people follow him.
Yeah, follow me or I get rugged.
Yab.tech, you unmute there.
He panicked again.
This is your time to shine, Yab.
Yab, Yab, Yab, Yab.
Yab, Yab.
He laughed.
He's gone.
We're just shaming people into leaving now.
I guess so.
All right, guys.
We're going to call it.
If we have no one else who wants to come up, no questions.
I have one more question.
Sorry.
Yeah.
For D. Scott Fi.
I don't know if I missed this, but do you guys have, like, an actual, like, launch date yet for the IDO?
So, yeah, I think I can answer.
Or maybe, Sonali, do you want to cover these questions?
It's fine.
Yeah.
Yeah, actually, sorry.
I didn't hear the question.
I think Twitter might be glitchy for me on my side.
Can you repeat what the question was?
Lisa asked when the IDO date is for your project.
Oh, for our project.
Yeah, I believe we're looking at September, October right now.
Awesome.
Thanks.
For our IDO.
Yeah.
So we're actually in the process of starting to set up a lot of the marketing channels.
And we're connecting with a few, like, influencers and various different marketing partners at the moment to start preparations for it.
Planet IX, are you there?
What was that?
Planet IX, are you there?
Because I'm still interested if he or she can tell us more about Planet IX.
They've spoken a couple times before about the project.
But, yeah, if you guys are there, you're muted.
We can't hear you.
Man, we're, like, we're batting, like, zero right now.
We've got the DeFi addict.
Every person who's come up.
We've got the DeFi addict.
He's a DC ambassador.
If he doesn't chat, he's getting just removed, doesn't he?
Hey, guys.
I've got a little question.
For all the companies that presented themselves here, can they follow me on Twitter?
Because there were some interesting products that I would like to look more into about security and all of that.
Yeah, you know, you could follow them as well when they're speaking, too.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
I was driving, so I couldn't.
Let's give the DeFi addict, Coon, it's pronounced, a follow here.
Let's pad his followers, guys.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I was driving, so I couldn't tap the button at that moment.
Bro, what is your profile picture?
I know it's a drug tusky, but what is that, man?
It's like a guy with a Doge face tattoo.
And his hat says, Dope Boy.
Dope Boy, it's my coolest one.
And he's got a bong, a marijuana leaf on his shirt.
Sorry, that didn't sound cool.
He's got a pot leaf.
Does that sound cool?
Weed?
Yeah, weed.
Am I getting too old?
And he's got some confetti in.
It's not a bong, too, so.
What's that?
It does look like a bong.
It's definitely a bong.
Yeah, join drug huskies on Doge Chain.
Get all into Doge Chain spaces in about 10 minutes.
Nice shout-out, nice shout-out.
Yeah, I'll be here.
I don't think Rocket's going to make it.
I know you are.
Oh, I'm going to make it.
Wouldn't miss it.
What is this one?
Is it the main client week?
Is that what it is?
Yeah, I think this week we're going to be talking about how the Dow will be investing in different projects now.
Do you fancy buying some Quik?
Quik can campaign for the Dow.
So any project will be able to campaign for the Doge Chain Dow, which is like, I think it's like $40 million.
So projects and whatever, meme coins, tokens, projects on Doge Chain, which is a Polygon Supernets chain, can campaign to get the Dow to vote to invest in different projects.
And so I think the first round of voting is going to start soon.
It should be pretty cool.
It's the first of its kind.
No other chain has this, where the tokens are owned by the community and the community gets to vote on what.
You know, like if you go to like Polygon or like Ethereum Foundation, et cetera, you know, they choose like where to allocate grants and things.
But Doge Chain is going to be doing it a little differently, where you'll be able to go through like a campaigning and voting process, starting with socials on like Twitter and then going to an official vote on chain.
And then you'll be able to vote how the chain gives.
It won't be grants.
It'll be investments.
So instead of just giving money away, they also can give grants.
But I think what is more interesting is investing in these projects.
And then the Dow will own the tokens or the NFTs or whatever.
But they invest in these projects and potentially buy them on the open market.
Pretty cool concept.
We've never seen this in any way.
The closest thing I can think of to this is like how the VE model and DC Doge Chain does use a VE model.
It's the only chain that uses VE model.
But like so you lock up your votes, similar to Curve and Convex.
So like you lock up your tokens and the longer you lock them, it has a multiplier.
So if you lock for four years, you get eight times the voting power.
And then you can use that voting power like with, you know, Curve.
You can vote where the Curve, their emissions go.
So what pools should the emissions go to?
And so that's an economic value of voting.
And now Doge Chain has similar.
There's an economic value to voting and locking your tokens because you get to vote on how to invest that money for the Dow.
So very interesting.
I suspect it could come and turn into like a situation like Convex where you have, I don't know, bribing and things where projects are telling people,
hey, vote for the Dow to invest in our project and, you know, we'll pay you for that.
I mean, which is a very controversial issue, the bribing thing, because like bribing has a bad connotation.
But if you're – it kind of makes sense, I feel like, on chain.
It's a little different and it's like transparent and you know what's happening.
But, yeah, anyways, interesting stuff.
All right, guys.
If we don't have anyone else.
We do have a couple more.
We'll go ahead.
Hold on.
Hold on.
I have to give a quick shout out to QuickSwap Perps.
I love it.
And here – say something to the DeFi Addict.
Welcome to the Binance band.
I just seen that they banned Belgium.
So, as a Canadian, I want to shout out to DeFi Addict and tell them –
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
They asked, they ordered Binance.
Don't just ordering something.
It's like – we are too polite.
We are just going to ask if it is – maybe couldn't be – could it be possible to – if we want to shut it down.
Listen, listen, you can leave Binance alone.
If you're going to leverage trade, go on QuickPerps.
Okay, that's what the shout out – this plug is all about in the first place.
And you want to talk about polite.
Us Canadians are very polite.
Smoke a joint.
Have a beer.
Relax.
Got to get back to work.
Peace out, guys.
Thanks, Crypto Canuck.
Appreciate the QuickPerps shout out.
I guess we might as well quickly – I'll just give everyone an update on QuickPerps on ZKVM.
It is currently either the first or second largest app on ZKVM.
Let me refresh DeFiLama.
It keeps going back and forth.
So it's been going back and forth.
It's either QuickSwap V3 or QuickPerps.
Okay, right now it's V3 at 9 million.
And QuickPerps at just under 9 million.
And so those are the two largest applications on ZKVM, Polygon ZKVM.
And then the third largest is CoconutSwap at 4.3 million.
And then the fourth largest is Gamma, which is QuickSwap's V3 liquidity management protocol at 4.3 million.
So the total TBL of the chain now with Polygon ZKVM is about 30 million.
So there's about 30 million on Polygon ZKVM.
And QuickSwap has like 18 million of that.
So kind of fun.
QuickPerps is really – it's cool.
It's growing.
It's getting tons of volume, a lot of users.
It's really cool to see it growing.
I said before I thought QuickPerps could be the catalyst that really pushes Polygon ZKVM to adoption.
And it is actually shaping up to be that way.
It's very similar to how GMX was the thing that propelled Arbitrum to greatness.
That and the airdrop allure.
But, yeah, QuickPerps is definitely growing Polygon ZKVM really fast.
It's growing exponentially.
So what that is, for those who don't know, is it's basically GMX for Polygon.
And it's on Polygon ZKVM.
And so you can do 50X leverage.
And you can put your assets.
So like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Matic, USDC, USDT, or DAI, all are – if you deposit any of those, it goes into a basket, kind of like an ETF.
And so if you put $100 into it, it splits it up between all of those in a weighted way.
So it's like $32 of 32% Ethereum, 20% Bitcoin, et cetera, 10% Matic.
And then half is in like stable coins like USDC.
So if you put any asset there, you're kind of nicely diversified between all those assets, you know, weighted.
And then you're earning – right now it's about 27% interest.
So kind of nice if you have Bitcoin, Ethereum, Matic, and you want to put them in there and earn 27% interest on them.
Not bad.
Pretty cool.
It's a lot higher than GMX.
So if you're on GMX, come try it out.
It's a great way to try Polygon ZKVM.
And I guess another fun thing is it could result in an airdrop because there's lots of rumors circulating about Polygon doing an airdrop.
I'm almost sure they're going to do an airdrop.
I cannot fully confirm that, but I am almost sure Polygon ZKVM, there will be an airdrop.
And we don't know the details of that, but they're going to release details, I think, on July 10th about, like, tokenomics.
And I'm assuming they're going to talk about this airdrop.
Whether that's in Matic tokens or a new token, nobody knows.
But they are going to do something.
I can all but guarantee it.
Not financial advice, though.
Or they are migrating to a new token and then everyone gets their airdrop or something for the ZKVM part.
I'm just not sure.
I've heard rumors of this also, actually.
Yeah.
I don't know if you heard that.
But, yeah, I've been hearing rumors about that.
That's a more, like, low-key rumor.
I don't...
There are many possibilities.
But anyway, just try out the ZKVM just to be sure.
So whatever application you use, it could be QuickSwap, it could be CoconutSwap or any of the other applications there.
I would get some transactions going because you don't know yet what the airdrop qualifications will be.
There's a bunch of PDFs and guides and threads going around for, like, you know, for both ZKVM, for ZKSync, et cetera.
Because, you know, all these airdrop...
It's airdrop season now.
Airdrops are back in.
Like, it's, like, back in 2017.
And then in 2019 and 20, like, airdrops were out and now they're back in.
So it's kind of funny to see now they're being done at a huge level.
But, yeah, come do some volume.
Try some stuff.
Trade, swap, make referral codes, whatever you want to do.
And then, you know, you're going to be getting, like, that 27% or you might, you know, get that airdrop on top of that, too.
So, kind of cool.
All right, guys.
Hold on.
Can I...
I've been with GMX just under a year now.
So as soon as I...
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So since I...
Yeah, I've got to...
I just got to say it.
Since you guys did that and I've seen that you did kind of their total, like, their model.
Because I made a ton of ETH that way.
So, guys, provide liquidity.
Do it because you're...
In the long term, you're going to love it.
And especially the fees, I've noticed the fees have come down.
So, just...
It's a lot of...
Oh, the gas fees?
Yeah, the gas fees.
It's a lot of...
Dude, they're coming down like crazy on Polygon ZKVM.
Oh, I noticed.
When I first...
When you first did it, I added some.
And then I noticed a week later, I added more.
I was like, holy shit.
The gas fees went totally down.
Dude, they're going to...
They're come down.
So, like, a complex transaction used to be, like, $10 to $20 on Polygon ZKVM when it first launched.
Or when we first launched Quick Burps.
Because of the way it...
So, for those who don't know, the way it works is the transactions are batched and stamped to Ethereum.
And so, the more...
If there's not a lot of transactions, they still have to pay the Ethereum gas cost, let's say, for one transaction.
But if you do 10 transactions, now you get 10 transactions into the same batching cost.
Or 100 transactions into the same batching cost.
It's not exactly linear like that.
But it's like something like that.
So, the more transactions that are done, it's the opposite of other chains.
Other chains get...
This is the beauty of ZKVM.
Is other chains...
The more transactions you do, the costs go up.
And it gets slower.
It gets bogged down, right?
Crypto Kitty's clogged Ethereum and basically brought it to a halt almost.
Ordinals has made Bitcoin fees go up.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Throughout the history of blockchain.
But now we have a very interesting blockchain technology that actually the cost of transactions go down the more people do transactions.
The only other network I know like that is Lightning Network on the layer 2 of Bitcoin.
So, this is like a layer 2 potential thing.
But yeah, so the cost was like $10 to $20 a transaction.
I've seen transactions now as cheap as sub-10 cents.
So, the transaction cost, that's just in like a month.
I mean, the costs are dropping so fast.
And what I'm told, they could drop by another 100X or 1,000X.
Meaning you could get transactions down to like a thousandth of a penny.
Yeah, it's a no-brainer, man.
Like, if you're a liquidity provider, come over here, guys.
If you haven't yet...
I'm not telling you to switch.
If you're in GMX and you got liquidity there and you got GLP there, guys, take half of that and bring it to QLP.
Trust me, you're going to love it.
And it's so freaking early, too.
Anyway, I got to go.
Love you guys.
I appreciate that, man.
Nice little shill there.
That wasn't set up.
I had no idea he was going to do that.
But we appreciate that.
Yeah, if you're going to come try ZKVM, you might as well try Quick Purps.
And like, look, GMX.
And by the way, this is a fork of GMX.
So we have made a bunch of, you know, changes to like the front end and make it better UX.
But for the most part, it is GMX.
So you know it's safe.
It's battle-tested like GMX.
And if you look at GMX, the APR right now is 12 point...
No, no.
Hold on.
GLP's, APR...
Where am I?
Okay.
Something's wrong with it.
Oh, wow.
Oh, wait.
No, that's...
Wait.
Am I looking at the right thing?
It sounds like a crappy UI.
You should definitely just use Quick Purp.
I don't know if I'm looking at the right thing.
I was seeing 10%.
Now I'm seeing like 40-something percent.
But I'm not sure what's going on.
Anyways, in general, our APRs have been like double theirs, triple theirs on almost all days.
So GMX, by the way, I'm not dissing them.
They're a great product.
That's why we forked it.
GMX, I think, is like the best product market fit in the industry right now outside of Uniswap B3.
This really is like...
This is the first model that's really been able to activate like derivatives on chain.
GMX has been really great.
I mean, there's...
We talked to so many institutions that love the GMX model.
And tons of institutions.
I think Fireblocks is going live, which is like institutional custody on chain.
I think that's either live or going live in the next days.
And then you're going to see a ton of institutional money coming to ZKABM.
That's one of the things they've been waiting for is Fireblocks.
But anyways, great talking, everyone.
Thanks for the shout out.
I mean, chat.
Chat, he came up and he didn't have the chance to speak yet.
Yeah.
Hey.
Hello, chat.
Thanks, Patrick.
Hey.
All right.
Sorry to hold everybody up.
I just want to make a call back to what you were talking about earlier on the security aspect of things.
And then just talking about the inflation and that side of stuff of being continually rugged by your governments, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And just a shout out to the book you mentioned, you know, The Fourth Turning.
Just a reminder for folks, you know, definitely check that book out.
It's awesome.
Another one's The Sovereign Identity is really good as well.
And so I just want to remind people about the book you mentioned.
Nice.
Thanks, Chad.
I haven't read The Fourth Turning, but I know a lot of people in the circles I run in love that book.
It's on my list.
I think I downloaded it for Audible already, but I haven't started it.
But Sovereign Individual that Jack mentioned earlier is a great one.
And, of course, the kind of the Bible of, like, Bitcoin is the Bitcoin Standard by Siphonina Moose, which is really, like, required reading if you're in crypto.
Look, even if you're not a huge Bitcoiner, guys, you should understand the values of Bitcoin because that's what fueled all of this that we're building.
All of DeFi, et cetera, it all comes from the ideas of Satoshi Nakamoto.
You know, I don't want to be, like, a religious sell-it here.
But it really does matter.
And the Bitcoin Standard, I think for the first, like, five chapters, it doesn't even talk about Bitcoin.
It talks about, like, the history of money, which is really important to understand.
Anyways, okay, guys, we've got to run.
Next Spaces has already started.
I'll see you guys there if anyone wants to join the Doge Chain Spaces.
Cheers, everyone.
And remember, all roads lead to Polygon.
Happy Friday, guys.
Thanks a lot.
Thank you, man.
Happy Friday.
See you in those same spaces.
See you, guys.
