all right all right we're here I think I only messed up one of my one of my
sound options all right there we go now we don't have any echoes we're here we
got urban we got machi we got arbitrary we got the a team we got optimism we got
zk sink it's a chaining day every day until Valentine's Day yesterday the boat
ended the community decided that was the issue the community decided we are
building an ape chain the vote is in the decision is made today we are going
to discuss with the four proponents the different benefits the implications of
building the a chain before we get into this discussion though we're gonna set
the stage up we're gonna get all the expected people up here we're just gonna
listen to a little bit of music so please like retweet share the room if
you've got questions please do drop them in the bottom and if you want to
join us you can definitely do that
oh that felt that felt good that felt good and yeah you might have seen I do
have the peace sign emoji but nothing is broken everything is fine we kept that
little relic from Twitter past welcome everybody we got papal we got Linstro up
here helping us to co-host the stage they are a recently elected marketing
and communication stewards for the working group so shout out to them for
being here and shout out to urban as well we called on him to join us as one
of our more technical members of the community who might be capable of
helping to lead our discussion a bit it is titled as a debate but we do not want
people to debate personalities we do not want people to debate each other we want
to hear different ideas about the topics the concepts there are plenty of
complex ideas there are plenty of different terms that are gonna get
thrown around during the conversation and thankfully papal did put together a
graphic to help us to understand some of those things so we're just gonna get
that pinned up at the top and you guys can check that out as we are diving in
and again if you guys hear anything that's confusing or interesting please
do feel free to drop the questions the comments in the bottom right and I did
invite Maeve up here they are one of our partners over at ape comms and they do
host the puke cast stage they've been hosting Luke on over the past couple of
days so check them out if you guys haven't but without any further ado I do
want to hear from our co-hosts and let you know that this is just an informal
discussion among the highly motivated and active members of our community and
everything that we discussed is our personal opinion and not representative
of the eight point foundation so we're not here to answer questions on their
behalf we cannot answer questions on their behalf and we're not here to
advocate for any of these proposals just here to share the information with the
community and you guys haven't tell Valentine's Day to get that vote in I
mean it's ending on the 14th so we may as well have fun with it don't forget
get your chocolates get your flowers and get your vote in before well before
Valentine's Day well before February 14th it's coming up Lindstro just so
everybody knows I do not dislike I don't hate the aquamarine backgrounds I love
y'all welcome happy to be co-hosting here beside you GM GM GM you're in the
future I think too so I don't know how to address that but thanks for being
here with us GM GM super excited let's get it
short and sweet short and sweet keeping it sweet papal good morning how are
you doing today awesome I'm very excited to speak and yeah learning that one love
it love it well thank you for being here with us as well
Ervin my my merch hat brother how are you doing this morning here excited to
be in this historical moment I think I'm dialing in from Hong Kong so we're
looking forward to what the different teams have to share with us
there we go there's my me button well love it and appreciate you taking time
out to out of your schedule to join us I know traveling as well so Ervin will be
here with us for about the first hour and then he's got to pop out so we'll
give him some priority on asking some of these questions during the first half
and we will invite people from the audience up during
I'm talking to myself and you guys didn't even say anything come on come on
Lin show come on Papa you got you you put out for a little bit yeah I thought
it was just me I thought it's just me lost you you rock man the Spain ever
night I'm literally I was literally over here a few seconds now I was I was
talking to myself that's what was very lost we live a good morning long at
least like you didn't rock twice today that's what this is all those times this
is definitely one of those this is definitely one of those times all right
machi good morning how we doing today you were here bright and early with us
Tuesday you're back with us again are you ready are you feeling fresh yo hell
yeah and and I see the CEO Pauling on that mark game motherfucking liar talk
his shit about me I see him showed up yo come on come on you can't start the
stage like that we got to debate the ideas come on come on yo damn me a hot
fuck it listen I don't vote for it for Pam AIP cuz they didn't pay me they're
fucking AIP sucked that's why all right all right machi come on come on we got
we got to talk about the ideas give me fire you're gonna come on we're gonna
we're gonna we're gonna lose it up here all right
Steven good morning GM GM hey great to be here excited to talk about the
horizon arbitrary proposal and great to be here with all of you love it
appreciate it and look I'm gonna tell you right now I'm only taking partial
responsibility for this title I don't think this should be titled as a debate
but we are gonna have a debate it's fine it is what it is be accountable for this
discussion be accountable for what you say up here don't blame me if something
crazy happens I'm not the only moderator up here so please let's just a
bit let's debate the ideas we've got plenty of things going on this is a
serious discussion for the a point communities the scariest discussion for
our entire ecosystem there are a lot of different implications there are a lot
of different concepts we're gonna discuss and we do want to hear people's
different ideas on these perspectives on these concepts as they are being
proposed to us mark thank you for joining us here good morning GM thanks
for having me super pumped to be here I'm really excited to talk about this
with everyone so I'm happy we got to get everyone together have a good
discussion about things it'll be fun thanks no problem no problem thank you
for being here with us and we've got Spencer as well Spencer and Steven both
here representing the Arbitrum horizon proposal good morning Spencer good
morning sir I'm excited to be here and talk about things from the horizon lab
side and you know yeah let's let's get to it love it love it all right I got a
I got a quick question here can you am I echoing right now can you hear can you
hear me twice no crystal clear all right perfect perfect playing with the sound
board over here making sure I can hear you and you don't hear me twice all
right well like we said we've already had our building a chain decision made
the community voted firmly in favor with 31 million votes cast that we will
build this a chain and we do have all of the authors here with us so I want to
give you guys just a brief opportunity to give an introduction to yourselves
into your proposal during the one-on-one discussions it's it's like a 30 minute
introduction it's a longer pitch but since we've got you all here just being
mindful of everybody's time we will keep the timer just a five minutes and if you
guys could just give an introduction to yourselves for anybody who may not be
familiar but also just a light introduction to your idea some of the
concepts that you are proposing for our community in your a chain proposals and
Mark let's start with you please sure hey everyone Mark Boran I'm the CEO at
Polygon Labs before joining as CEO I was the chief legal officer over here been
in the space for the last seven years mostly in a legal capacity and now pumped
to be working with builders more directly across the ecosystem so that's
that's been a lot of fun so for those of you who don't know Polygon Labs is
developer of various polygon protocols and development kits including the chain
development kit and what the polygon labs proposal says is basically
welcoming welcoming an ape chain that is built using the polygon CDK to become
part of the entire polygon ecosystem and what that means is really becoming part
of a community of all other builders in this space and that's not just a
community built around a kind of like off-chain ecosystem which I think is
really important as well but also an on-chain community a community that is
combined together with what we'll be releasing in a couple weeks called the
AG layer which really brings all of these chains together to allow for
cross-chain composability and as part of this proposal what we have put in there
is a few things that are very important so first is that we will have a RAS
provider we refer to them as implementation providers who will be
actually doing the creation and maintenance of the chain this is a very
experienced RAS provider named Gateway and they would be the ones actually
handling all of this on a big basis to ensure that the technology gets up and
running and is actually maintained on top of that what we have is an entire
ecosystem of partners that we like to connect with others and what that really
looks like is that we have somebody on our enablement team who becomes focused
on in this case what would be the ape queen community and ape chain
specifically and what that team member would be doing is looking at how it is
that it brings the most value to a chain and so that might be through kind
of unique ideas whether it could be potential connections to info providers
could be connections to others in the ecosystem it's really a role that says I
want to make a chain as successful as possible polygon labs wants to help do
that and so we're going to be there to support that on top of that what we said
is that there will be three million dollars available to the community that
can be used really for development purposes in any way whatsoever and so
presumably that will be used for purposes of growing the ecosystem mostly
in terms of incentivizing builders around the ecosystem and then lastly
what we have is a set of infrastructure that is really like part of this so one
of the things that one of the builders on polygon CDK is OKX and one of the
things that they agree to do is make OKLink a block explorer available to
CDK builders and therefore that is a block build explorer that is available
to the ape chain from an infra perspective and so that is something that
kind of lets you get up and running you've got kind of wallets and RBC
providers that are all kind of available from the Ethereum ecosystem that will be
usable as well and so when you put that all together what you have is basically
an entire chain that gets spun up, sovereignty for the ecosystem, growth
within already a big ecosystem and capital to help make that happen and
that really ends up kind of summing up the polygon and gateway proposal. Love it.
Thank you Mark and I appreciate you for giving us the overview and spot-on on
the timing I mean I didn't even need the timer there for you. I want to
apologize real quick as well to Michael and we got Omar up here as well they're
here representing for the ZK sync proposal they are our fourth
proponent up here. Michael, Omar we got the penguin up here with us now as well
if one of you guys wants to give us the pitch but both of you guys please feel
free just give us your introduction and Michael we can start with you and if you
want to throw it over to Omar that would be great.
I'm still here. Am I still here? I'm definitely still here. Yep you're here.
All right all right well we got Omar. Omar you must be here you just came up
with us so welcome up thanks for coming to represent for ZK if you don't mind
give us an introduction for yourself and a little bit about the ideas that
you're presenting here through your proposal for a chain. Yeah sure thanks
everyone for having us here is Omar I'm the head of this development for Matter
Labs. Matter Labs is the engineering and dev company behind ZK sync we're one of
the key companies that is building the technology and the network and the
ecosystem. There's a couple of other key developer companies as well that are
working on ZK sync such as land a class and moonsong labs and a couple other key
ones that will start contributing as well. Yeah so we are essentially the
newest commerce to the L2 space we launched a less than a year ago however
we've already shown quite a lot in terms of the ecosystem growth as well as just
the overall performance of our technology. If you go to grow the pi.xyz
or L2 fees right now you can see very clearly that we're pretty much at the
point of like having the most performant tech so in terms of lowest fees
but at the same time also having the highest throughput in terms of
essentially doing more than a million transactions a day between two to four
hundred thousand daily active wallets as well so two key features that are going
to be needed for a high performance mainstream gaming chain you know high
throughput and extremely low fees we plan on getting those fees down very
soon probably by like this spring down to like one cent maybe even lower than
one cent is what you can start booting up as part of a chain so our proposal
is really multifaceted here right so it's very similar to how a lot of the
other teams have proposed right we have native account abstraction so you can
start thinking of building different ways of customer onboarding and UX we
will have extremely cheap fees we will have all the different technology options
such as different data ability layers like Celestia, EigenDA you know so you
can essentially chop up a chain and build it the way you want to build it
right you can bring in different info providers you can bring in different
types of wallets you can even make you have your choice of whether you want a
coin as a gas token or maybe even have USDC or some stable coin as the native
gas token right and then we also have the ability where you can enable whether
it's EOAs like MetaMask wallets or even smart contract wallets you can enable
them to pay in any type of token or just make them go gasless so that's a
unique feature there as well and then the other piece about the technology is
that similar to what marks about the CDK we also have a native interoperability
and messaging layer built into our ZK tech so the A chain I mean you can think
of it as an ecosystem right of chains you can have essentially your own layer
two and then maybe build very app-specific layer threes on top but
each of those chains would be fully interconnected to the rest of the
ZK sink you system which right now already includes kronos which is
crypto comm so they're building their own layer to chain recently you know you
can see we also have plenty world starting to build up and then also
recently started announcing some of the gaming partnerships that we've got I
think a week and a half ago we announced eye candy which is largest double-a game
developer in Southeast Asia and Australia so there have already started
working on their own testnet and over the next couple weeks we're going to be
announcing a large number of gaming chains that are coming to fruition and
so from an ecosystem standpoint the A chain would be coming in and be fully
connected to this entire network of gaming systems but then also various
different financial ecosystems that are building and other general ecosystems
are coming and building using ZK stack I'll see if Michael is back on he can
kind of go more into so Michael I guess he's not here right now he's just
stepped away for a minute so my background is very corporate right I
spent 10 years at UI mostly working in finance services and then moved over to
crypto and matter labs about a year and a half ago so I come from that world
and fully understanding enterprise with understanding how to build out different
businesses and different verticals and then Michael is a former VP at
Activision Blizzard where he led a large number of their game go-to-market
activities and so he's been him along with rich or heavy media entertainers
now here right now we've been essentially building large
distribution partnerships that we would bring to our key partners such as the A
chain and help them essentially collaborate with mainstream AA AAA
gaming studios but then also various aspects of the creative world like in
Hollywood in California etc so I'll pause right there because I said quite a
bit no that's perfect that's that's perfect this today is definitely your
your day to come up and share and it looks like we might have lost Michael so
if Michael's in the crowd please do just request up I was trying to look through
and find you but there are a lot of faces you know you're right back up here
with us and again Omar thanks video of you will get more into some of the
questions on the different concepts here after we hear from some of our other
guests I do want to hear from Steven Steven you had a partner here with you
earlier as well but it looks like it'll just be you holding it down so don't
mind introducing yourself and the ideas behind the Arbitrum proposal for us
hey everyone great to be here I'm Steven I'm co-founder and CEO of off chain
labs off chain labs is one of the core contributors and the original
contributor of the Arbitrum technology and we do a lot of the technical work
and in our proposal we're also joined by Horizon Labs I know Spencer was up here
maybe he's not here anymore who is you know because very honestly
like we build excellent technology but we're not you know I haven't been a
long-term member of the community I'm excited to become an engaged member but
we really thought it was important to have to complement the technology with
a partner that's deeply involved from day one that knows what the community
wants because ultimately our proposal is all about giving the community
everything that they want and giving them the technical infrastructure that
they need to to support and build a chain into the
most spectacular chain that it can be so if I were going to
break it down you know we really want this chain to be a
home base for the on-chain gaming ecosystem that we're already seeing
emerging in the ape ecosystem so for example Otherside, Rec League, Yuki Dash,
Serum City, Legends of the Mara etc etc you know this will be ape chain in our
vision will be a home base to establish the
connective tissue that unites all these projects at the protocol level
one key feature of our proposal is ape as a gas token
that's something which the Arbitrum Orbit stack supports already today
and our any trust technology is uniquely positioned to enable this because the
any trust technology has a data availability committee it puts a lot of
the data off chain the idea is that the fees in ETH are low
because if the fees in ETH are high it doesn't really make sense to use a
different fee token because you're constantly selling to pay
data fees to ETH but the any trust technology enables you to actually use
ape as a gas token in a way that makes sense and doesn't create that
oh sorry can you hear me yeah yeah uh what i was saying was that uh using
ape as a gas token uniquely makes sense when using uh any
trust or an alternative data availability which is what we propose
because if you don't you're kind of just creating cell pressure and constantly
needing to sell the ETH to pay the L1 gas cost so the any trust proposal
enables using ape as a gas token which is already supported by the Arbitrum
technology um the reason i think i think the core pillars
that we view for this chain to succeed are number one is speed
Arbitrum has the fastest in market block times with about 250 milliseconds
can even come down to around 100 milliseconds if you want to
parameterize it that way it's faster than any of the other chains
um that are being considered which is necessary for an optimal gaming
experience you don't want uh you know you press the button and a
spinner comes up and it slows down gameplay you want fast
you know internet response times and the Arbitrum orbit stack can give you
that security Arbitrum has fully built out fraud
proofs it has uh the mechanisms in place today
the inherent ethereum security and i think that's critical particularly for
the amount of value already in the community and the amount of
value i should say the amount of value that will grow um you want to make sure
that the chain actually has top notch security
rooted in ethereum and arbitrum can offer that um cost that's another really
really important one because a game can be fun
but if your wallet's getting drained that's not going to be fun for anyone
and therefore keeping the cost of the chain low is important arbitrum any
trust technology keeps the chain on this is not theoretical by the way you can
look at arbitrum nova which is already running this today
and see the uber low fees of arbitrum nova and the last one is and this is
really important which goes back to the first thing i said it's the flexibility
and autonomy ultimately um this is not my chain it's not my
vision it's not the arbitrum team's vision it's not the horizon's vision we
want to put the eight eight coin dao in the driver's seat here and
that's why not only will the uh eight coin be the fee token
it will also be the governance token and basically just go right in and expand
the governance capabilities of a coin and they're going to choose
all critical features of the chain so that so for example the parameterization
of the underlying infrastructure um how fast the block times are what the l2
gas fees are everything i said is just suggestions but ultimately it's going to
be in full control of the eight coin dao to go ahead and uh
choose what it wants for its chain and how and what its vision is because
that's the most important thing here um i would say also again just on the
previous point which is you know we're not proposing something
like hey this is what we're going to do this is what it will look like you can
look at arbitrum nova today and not only can you look at the
technology today you look you can look at the gaming ecosystem today arbitrant
nova is the leading l2 gaming ecosystem and it's increasingly the choice of
others that are coming from other ecosystems we're constantly seeing
others uh big names coming from other ecosystems
because they see the value proposition of nova again the low cost the fast speed
and just to name a few of the key pillars of the arbitrant gaming
ecosystem today some are arbitrant natives some have jumped from other
ecosystems we have treasure dao hytopia xi games pixel vaults reboot proof of
play ztac ztx ape chain would be entering not as a
new player and with a new ecosystem with untried technology but a
player that's entering an ecosystem that exists and emerges and it would be a
cornerstone and a key pillar of an already thriving gaming ecosystem
again we're partnering with horizon who's going to lead growth efforts here
to make sure that the community's interest is well represented
in the even in the recommendations that we give they're a long time
ecosystem partner and on on board to drive growth and the last point that i
wanted to mention is um arbitrant foundation will be
providing uh three million dollars of funding for the chain
which will provide a rass or roll up as a service provider to run the technical
infrastructure uh to run a blocking spore also paying
members of the security council and you're going to get basically all of
that uh at no cost to the ape coined out and the idea is
that this will be a sustainable profitable chain you know set up to
bootstrap with a nice nice amount of funding for three years for all of its
cost covered and then it will be self-sufficient and
we will help uh together with horizon grow this ecosystem
and again it has the key features of really really fast really really cheap
which are critical for you to have a gaming experience
and to get together with arbitrant's leading technology and leading gaming
ecosystem i think we together as a community can
make ape chain a really smashing success on the arbitrant
technology stack all right thank you stephen and i see we
got spencer up here with us now spencer did you want to give us a
introduction for yourself and if you wanted to follow up on some of the ideas
and your proposal just keeping it under five minutes here and
then we're going to jump into the questions
yeah absolutely and i can try to keep it you forgot uh
the ap 377 motherfucker i didn't forget you no they're gonna get you last but
not leave don't worry you're gonna be quick i promise you'll
have plenty of time um so
you know i so in terms of um our involvement i think that stephen did a
really good job of kind of getting through a lot of the really important
really exciting things about this proposal you know what's
important on our side and the reasons that we're here and i'm here are one to
make sure that we're enabling a very collaborative
ape chain that we're making a very accessible
ape chain um that we're keeping the focus you know on gaming as a primary
chain while bringing in obviously everything else that needs to come around
that um you know those are some of the
things that we bring to the table one of the things that's really important to us
is making sure uh you know our proposal is only one that really
directly approaches this is making sure that
ape becomes a omnichain token you know a cross-chain token
um through you know layer zero is a member of the dac
on that front uh making sure that ape is getting more accessible
that it is accessible not just on ape chain but in other ecosystems
bringing use cases bringing utility um bringing additional builders into it
that is one thing that i would add that i think is really really highly important
to this uh the other thing is that you know we
have a strong focus in our proposal and talk about
making sure that there's accessibility um you know
ape chain is a going to be a chain that not only should be accessible and
attractive to this community but it should help be one of the things that
brings in new people ape is such a powerful brand in terms
of getting people interested in web three
it is such an amazing entry point uh you know and so any chain here also needs
to make sure that it's you know serving the purposes of
one you know being very directly tied into the
existing community being able to be easily used
and also being able to be very easily used
by people who are coming to it new um it's also one of the reasons that we
really like the arbitrum technology the fact that it allows for things like
account abstraction very easily um the fact that there is obviously the
liquidity in the broader ecosystem you know those are all things that are
really exciting to us um and ones that we want to push
forward so that's what i you know that's what i'll
say and uh you know machi i'm giving you plenty of time
so you know uh i think steven thank you for kind of
giving the general run down there yes yes machi you went first you were last
on this part but definitely not least come on you know i wasn't going to
forget about you please for anybody that doesn't know
anybody that doesn't know give us an introduction for yourself but also give
us an introduction to your ideas and some of the implications for your
proposal and we're going to keep this part under five minutes so we can
all right well i'm here because i'm one of you apes
i'm definitely part of the ft community the crypto community the defi community
and um i have love for for our ecosystem
and our community and you've heard all the all the pitches just now
and let's give them all props that they have real tech
it's like uh it's strong tech the the top four in
our entire industry these are the top four players and that's why they all
they all came to us because we're important
ape coin dal the yuga universe the apes um we're the cool people we're the
culture of this industry and they are they're all here to
pitch us uh we almost got fucked because polygon
almost snuck their proposal in early on but we checked that shit and
put it back down it was a poor written proposal
offer no grant um and now that you guys can all see everybody's offering us a
grant because you know we're worth something
and like i said before too is like apes have some self-respect
don't be giving away our fucking chain for nothing right and and like i said
before polygon gave four million to the youths not even d god's their main
collection their secondary collection they gave them four million us
but they're only offering us three to be abundantly clear that's a lie
now let's continue then i guess frick the god's a liar
all right um then then it doesn't matter the point is they're offering us three
million or before they they want us to pay three million and um
again our chain is definitely um very valuable and so again
all the four techs you've heard them lightning fast one of them is the
fastest chain out there no one's ever seen
that fast before arbitrary was the fastest in the world i'm sure
salina would say hell no and you know when i look at the technology i i'm
like the rest of you i can only understand so much
all these guys are the big words big numbers so
i put together 14 devs all top people with their own protocols some on these
chains that that they're all pitching they've all
they're all builders all devs and they've checked the tech in and out
and um there is no clear winner in the tech in my opinion
uh from from their assessment but definitely
our you know i would say uh current partner or our first leading choice
optimism has offered like 60 million us
in a grant um so so that's that's a big difference from what everybody else is
offering i think that's that's the main difference other than that
again i want to give them all props that all four of them have great tech
and we can go into details of why i feel like
eight why is it zk might not be the way to go because it's not completely evm
compatible right now or maybe it is by now who knows but
it must be in recent because as you can see the zk
technology put riders their tv is a lot lower than the current
optimistic guys like arbitrum and optimism the other part of that would
be when i look at the layer three or what what any trust that arbitrum is
offering us i don't want to be like a database you
know like it feels like it's almost that's not decentralized enough they
said of course it's decent there's seven people on the
that availability community i'm like um i look at who's on its horizon
it's always people with with with um you know incentives involved
so i guess what aip 377 is providing is and what we were doing with or without
this rfp we're already doing an rfp for our dao we were already checking all
the different like we're at you actually i get a team with
with aip 377 where the other ones don't have any teams
they're all conflicted they all like have their own chains they gotta run
but aip 377 the the devs and the team that we put together
would only be dedicated to eight eight point dao
and and whichever one of these four service fred we ended up using
would be this would be the second part of it and as you can see the whole eight
coin does want a chain and and i guess we would be the right
choice because we would pick the right technology out of these
a right partner of these four optimism arbitrum
polygon or um zk sync yeah that's that's that's aip 377
all right all right well the debate the debate is not
taking any time to get underway the the conversations
are ripe and ready we've also got profits up here on stage with us local
legend ape coin dao community uh enthusiast i mean bringing
us to the streets of miami shout out the profits for that and i'm
bringing ape coin all over the world lost all over the fucking world
that's the least oh by the way thank you lindstrom for helping us with
oh she kept it short and sweet for them all right all right she hit me right
where she know it hurts okay all right all right um well we do
want now yeah lost amazing space keep it up
excited to hear everybody uh go about what they're you know what
they're building all the candidates good luck
let's see some let's see some fireship bills for
for ape coin ladies and gentlemen
that's it that's it we want to see some cool products we want to see
the incentives we want to see the implications for our community um
like i said we do have irvin here for now it's about
20 minutes so i do want to give him a chance to to lead us in a little bit
into some of these more technical discussions we want to
talk about partnerships we want to talk about the ecosystem but there is
tech underlying this we are at the the white paper stage
at the stage where we are early somehow still
two years into the game with ape coin now looking at day one
of the community having decided to build an ape chain
and um so we did again we hosted stages with the a team
previously this week if you guys come out they recorded here on the ape
point twitter account they were very transparent about what
they were building and uh with an emphasis on this idea for
native yield but also in building partnerships
and these different industry connections and machi in particular