All right, nice we ended that
Echo, all right. We fixed the echo
We ended that all that Twitter music. Welcome
Welcome to the a chain RFP proponents series. This is a IP 378 from arbitrum and
Verizon labs off chain labs
We're gonna be speaking with the brands with the companies themselves hearing more about these proposals
It is a chaining day every day until Valentine's Day
So if you're tuning in if you haven't yet, you have just one day left to get your votes in
Please do like retweet share the room. Let your group chats know we're gonna play a little bit of music get the stage set up
Thanks for joining us this morning and hope you guys enjoy our vibe
All right, all right, I love it I love the vibes I love the song good narrative for today
The ape chain is definitely here to make us stronger
Welcome. Welcome. Thank you again for joining us just to get it out of the way real quick and let everybody know
This is an informal discussion among the highly motivated and active members of the eight point community
I'm lost here behind the hodler collective account
We do also have all city here joining us to co-host and everything we discuss is our personal opinion not representative of the point
Foundation so we can't answer questions on their behalf and we're not here to advocate for any of the proposals
just sharing information with the community and with that we do have the teams from
Horizon and off-chain labs to present the proposal to build a chain on
Arbitrum, and we will start the conversation with them just getting a brief introduction
We'll move into some questions from us and then we'll open up the stage for the community to come up and ask some questions as well
You guys do I mean we're down to the last
Just over just under 48 hours here
I mean if we count Valentine's Day if balance if you guys are off on Valentine's Day
If you guys are off tomorrow you guys got you know today left
So make sure you guys have had a chance to read these proposals. You can listen back to some of the discussions
drop questions in the comment box if you've got them and
Please do like retweet and share the room as we're having the discussion a lot going on in our community
in the whole ecosystem out here, so
Can't wait to get into these discussions without without waiting any further though all city. Are you here with me?
I see it looks like you're unmuted. I don't know if we're bugged, but are you here with me?
I'm here. I'm excited. Can't wait to chat with Spencer and Steven welcome welcome
Hey, thanks. Great to be here. Yeah great to be here
Yeah, please good. Good morning Spencer. Good morning Steven Spencer, so you're here with Horizon Labs
Yep, I am I am I'm of the VP of ecosystem at Horizon Labs
Perfect perfect and and Steven you're here with with off chain labs, right? That's that's sort of maybe a new one for some of the people
Yes, hey, I'm here with off chain labs and off chain labs
Contributes and is the additional builders of the arbitrary technology and also prison which is the leading consensus client for aetherium
But obviously today I'm here to talk about arbitrary
Love it. Love it. Well. I can't wait to get into the discussions again
We do want to help make sure that people are finding the discussion finding the room
So do be sharing it for us and before we get too much into the nitty-gritty
I mean there's a lot of technical implications for building the chain. There's
Different different business development discussions partnerships
There's a lot of fun discussions to have but before we get into all that please if you guys would just give us an introduction to
Let the community know who you are for those of us who don't know and then if you don't mind
Please do get into to your ideas here for building the Ape chain and what you guys are presenting here with AIP
Spencer if you want to just kick it off and get started we do just have an hour here today
We're not doing the two-hour Jam, so we want to get straight into it
And I'm gonna pass it over to Steven shortly and I won't take a bunch of time
But I would just say, you know, we've obviously been really excited about
Working with the community about talking to all sorts of people
And one of the things that I would say is, you know, if we haven't had a chance to talk to you yet
My door is always open. Please get in my DMS, you know
And and reach out to me and happy to set up a chat today tomorrow even after the vote
But you know if you're on the fence at all or if you're a fan and want to know how to help either way
You know, we are really really excited about
Building an Ape chain that is going to be one one of the premiere gaming chains
If not the premiere gaming chain in web 3
He rugged right not me did I didn't write did I
All right. Perfect. Well, it's not it's not it's not a coin stage. It's not a calm stage
It's not a community stage without a little breath
Damn Steven rugged at the same time. What was this like a
Planned planned malfeasance what's going on here?
Stevens come back. That's a joke
Spencer it looks like did you get a fix looks like you're muted now. Can you unmute?
So there's a weird glitch here where I can hear you super well, and I just can't hear Spencer when he talks
So if I'm being redundant anything you said just let me let me know. I try to be joining
I've never I've had many issues with Twitter spaces before but never a selective
Uh-huh. Um, you know couldn't hear any one person. So apologies for being redundant. I'm Steven
I'm co-founder and CEO of off-chain labs
And as I mentioned here, I'm talking today about our role building the Arboretum technology and in particular why we think the Arboretum technology stack
particular Arboretum orbit is a really good match for
Ape chain and the future of the eight coin Dow as it embarks in its new adventure. So the first thing I'll say is
Have been building in the space for over a decade
But I'm not have not been a long time member of the eight chain of the eight point community
And that's why for us when we were considering how do we best contribute it was important for us to partner with a team like horizon
that has been an early member of the community and knows about the community and its growth and and what the community wants because
Ultimately, I have ideas about technology. We have directions. We have input we have advice but ultimately
Doesn't matter if Arboretum wins or any of the other, you know competitors in this proposal when ultimately the
division of the community is what matters and
Assuming that we and that's why it's important for us to have horizon
but also is important for us to have the entire community input and you know, one thing which I'll just lead off with I'll
Get into the specifics here is
Everything that we put in our proposal layered layer 3 versus layer 2
every parameter of the chain
using eight coin as gas. These are all our recommendations and what we think is
the best choice for the eight coin community
But ultimately these are all decisions that will be made by the eight coin community and it's not necessarily one where you know
where you can't make decisions later on so for example if
We we propose building a layer 3 as this as the solution if some of the community don't like that the community is totally
We think this should be a layer 2 and that's the community's decision because ultimately it's not my vision that matters
But it's the community's vision and we're just here to provide the infrastructure technology to make a chain
You know the leading and a leading force in gaming
So with that, let me get into a little bit of the proposal and the recommendations that we are making
But I just wanted to give that input that heads up and by the way
Even if arbitrary wins this and I hope arbitrary wins this
You know, it's not like in my opinion a winner takes all I'd like to still get in a room with every other person
That submitted the polygon team the a team optimism zk sink and understand their ideas and make sure that we're representing the community
So we have a vision. We believe that the arbitrary technology is the best technology today that will enable a chain to reach its full potential
but every voice in this community matters and you know, we're going to
hopefully reach out to everyone and make sure particularly early community members like a team and machi that their voices are are heard also and that we
You know are representing not only our will but the will of the community and helping it implement its vision via our technology. So
We're pitching a chain together with Horizon Labs to get some, you know, interesting early things out of the way
this will be a zero cost for the a chain foundation for at least three years and the idea is the arbitrary foundation has
The rass of block explorers Security Council costs. So a rass is like basically the role of as a service provider
They're the ones that run the infrastructure run the sequencer, etc
a block of explorers and of course critical infrastructure that you need to
Utilize a chain and security council is something that the arbitrum Dow has which is a group of independent individual community members
That helps secure the chain in case of any
incident and they get paid for that role and the arbitrum foundation has
Agreed to pay their their you know, they're their portion their salaries. I'll say for lack of a better word as well
So the idea is to get it stood up in a way that's on par with you know
The best chains in the arbitrum ecosystem today and do it at a place where there's no onboarding costs for the ed community
Now why three years the idea is the arbitrary technology if the exchange succeeds and I believe the eight chain will succeed
It will be self sustainable and it will make it will be making money just like our region one is just like our region
Nova is but of course, there's a bootstrapping period you're not necessarily, you know
Doing a ton of transactions on day one
There are startup costs that he has three years should be more than enough time to get this chain on its foot on its feet
and then afterwards will be self sustainable and
Just making money for the AP chain the AP chain and the AP coin community
in terms of the particular vision of this chain
You know, we're super excited about an optimistic about the future of the ecosystem
Of course has embraced gaming as its core long-term strategy and has a rapidly maturing ecosystem today with games like rec league
Dookie Dash serum City legends of the Mara another side, of course
I always hate when I started sort of listings off on the fly because I'm for sure gonna miss miss one
But you know, those are the ones that that obviously come to mind today and I apologies if I missed any
But the idea is really the macro here that there's a global gaming
Ecosystem being built you go labs is a powerhouse. They're a coin community is a leading brand there and this chain can be
Absolutely pivotal and the success of not only
Yugas effort but gaming as a whole and make a coin and a coin down a chain a key player in gaming
The community obviously so what's missing today, so, you know, why why don't we just launch a study theory?
I'm obviously the community is exhausted from paying high gas costs and
And other sort of UX issues and that's where I think they are twos in general arbitrary technology in particular can really help
Ease those limitations and let and let the AP coin gaming ecosystem take off
There's already clear evidence today that external team is you know
I mentioned you got and their ecosystem
But external teams have a strong desire to take part of the ecosystem leveraging the network and the brand value
Of a coin that comes at doing so forgotten ruins is a good example with battle for goblin
Down even though the proposal is not successful. But the idea is there's clearly a lot of interest
In this community not only from internal players today, but as a core tenet of gaming that has the ability to extract external
Players as well and we've seen that happen already and I'm sure we'll see more than that once we have a dedicated chain
Be it an arbitrary technology or any of the other
wonderful proposals for this chain
So what specifically about arbitrary technology do I think stands out from the others and why I think that this will super charge
A coined out in their ability to launch a chain launch a chain quickly launch a chain
That's decentralized and ultimately launch a chain that has the best user experience for this vertical and gaming and by the way
I'm focusing on gaming today because I think that's the natural place to start considering, you know, the already
Deep ties that the ecosystem has to gaming but I view that as a starting point
I think that there are certainly opportunities for the community to branch out past that
So what are some of these key features of arbitrary that none of the others have or certainly none of the others have all
These together at number one is speed arbitrary is the fastest
of all the other chains there be considered here with 250 millisecond block times and
actually can be lowered to 100 milliseconds if
If the community desires and this is necessary for an optimal gaming experience
the first thing you want a game to be is fun and
If you have to click a button and then a spinner shows up and sort of half the time is you're just waiting for some
Something to happen whether that's you know, two seconds or 15 seconds. It's not going to be fun
You really want in order to onboard the masses you want to onboard those that like blockchain and that don't like blockchain ideas
you want to abstract the blockchain part into the background and
Key to that is giving a web to speed experience the idea that you have
250 millisecond block time which kind of feels like when you press enter on the internet and you get a response security
Arbitrum has the only optimistic roll-up with fraud proofs that help it inherits the ethereum security and the idea is to on day one
to already set the chain up with a
with a security proofs and everything that works for it to
To really leverage the the the barber trim security advantage costs of data availability keeps costs low. We have
The idea is that if you look at roll ups the largest cost is they are posting fees to ethereum and the idea is that
We can keep play of fees low
Using a data availability committee just like arbitrary Nova if you look at arbitrary Nova its fees are generally sub sent for many applications
And again, that's it necessary for gaming as well because speed is important
But also cost important if you're having fun playing a game, but your wallets being drained in the background
that's not a lot of fun for most people and
As part of the DAC, by the way, we've also extended an olive branch to other ecosystem partners
So we have initial participation from a mayor zero
Magic evening and dear wives that already signed on this proposal to be part of the data availability
Committee securing the chain and securing the chains data
But again, I'd love to have others represented there as well
Even others that are currently conflicted in other proposals
The idea here is to extend an olive branch reach across the aisle grow the ecosystem and once Wednesday comes and we're past
This vote we're all friends again. And my hope is that you'll see others from competing
Proposals today represented on this ecosystem as well so that we all
Can can help build a chain together and get past the you know, initial competition and that's true of arbitrary loses as well
My hope is that we still have some role we can help and if there is a role we can help we absolutely
Will do that. I spoke a lot about you guys game is and I'm gonna wrap up here in a sec
But I spoke a lot about you guys and a coin already equines already gaming system
I think our Richard also has a lot to add there based on his technical advantages and also with ecosystem advantages
Arbitrary home to some of the best gaming ecosystems today. So again, I'm gonna do that thing where I name a few
So apologies to anyone I leave out, but I think it's worth just showing the breadth of what they are
We have of course treasure Dow as an arbitrary native game ecosystem. That's been there from day one
Hytopia just came over from Polygon Zai games is doing fantastic things on Arbitrum with their own chain as well
pixel vaults reboot proof of play which is one of the
Leading fully on chain games and a fantastic gaming experience ZTX which recently did recently launched etc, etc, etc
Again, I'm sorry for everyone. I left out because it's a big community
but those are some of the names that come to mind the idea is that
You want to be part of a larger gaming ecosystem and eight coin now in the Arbitrum proposal and a chain has the has the ability
To not be on an island and not be sort of the biggest fish in a small pond
Be a big fish in a big pond and there are many benefits there to being co-located with other users
by the same technology stack as all these other games and users are there and liquidities there in the
ecosystem and the idea of being able to bridge across them, of course, we're partnering with layer zero in this proposal to help with
with the initial bridging and
I think there it would basically
Ape chain would join but also enhance and be a leader from day one in already lively gaming
Ecosystem and have a front seat at that table with all these with all these other with all these other other
Gaming powerhouses all building an Arbitrum just to wrap up with two more points
Ape is currently, you know this
Place at the in our proposal, which I think is unique
The Ape token is the centerpiece and the idea is that it's not only the governance token of the chain
But it's also the fee token of the chain
The idea is a you use aid for gas and for governance and I think that's important because
Arbitrum technology uniquely enables on-chain self-executing governance
That's how the Dow works today the Arbitrum Dow uses the Arbitrum token for governance and everything happens on chain
So I don't have keys the Arbitrum foundation doesn't have keys the Dow
Actually votes and those things happen and that's you know technology that I don't believe any other chain has a Dow that really execute
On chain, but you can plug in the Ape coin token here and your existing snapshot your existing procedures will just govern this chain
So you want to make a technical update to the chain?
You want to make a parameter change to the chain you want to change the fee tokens of the chain
you can do that all via the governance system and it's not just like sort of like
You know a ruse and something that someone is really turning a key in the background
you're really putting the Ape coin down in the driver seat and
The idea is to the Ape coin Dow and the in for a chain is the same as the Arbitrum foundation for Arbitrum one
Really giving over the best technology technology was that was developed for the leading out to ecosystem
But putting eight coin Dow and its token holders and his community in the driver's seat to decide everything
And that's that's back to my initial point, which is we're putting recommendations here
but the recommendations are building infrastructure that you fully control you being the community and
You have control to change whatever you'd like as part of that and that's critical and to the technology that we've that we've built
and then the last point I'll make is
What you do with the chain so what are those decisions we mentioned that like you can make decisions
But are you can make a ton of different decisions and change things to customize this chain and the on the one side of the of
The spectrum you can do nothing and just launch a coin a chain as the same as say
Arbitrum Nova same parameters everything else
We just have a branding difference
But you can also do things that go deep into the tech and change it and customize it for your community for example
Royalty enforcement if you think it's important to enforce that on chain
That's something you can choose to hard-code in not only not at the application level
But at the chain level other protocol level if you want to do things like sharing royalties creator royalties
This is something which Rari chain is doing and they launched maybe two weeks ago on Arbitrum orbit
I know you know a few creators have already gotten over a hundred if like
Really really, you know incredible things you can do to experiment with the technology and you have full control of the technology
And again, it's you being the community you want to enforce creator royalties on chain
You create or we can work with you to create the technical the code, but we can't put it on chain
It's going to be the eight coin Dow that votes and governs itself and is able to do that
And of course the fee token part is important because it's not just the governance. It's actually creating
You know creating more demand and more utility for the ape token to be the centerpiece of this ecosystem it governs it it controls its
Future but it also controls its presence
Which is the fees and the gas being paid in the present are paid and the Arbitrum Nova technology is uniquely suited for that
because if you have a roll-up technology that's putting all the
Gas on chain you can collect fees in a in a token
But it doesn't really help because you constantly need to pay a ton of beef and Arbitrum Nova
You're not paying a ton of beef. You're paying a fixed amount of beef
say per per block and therefore it makes a lot more sense to
Use a grape coin as the gas feed or not constantly selling it for ease and I lied
I have one last point which is um, just wanted to reiterate where I started from the beginning
I've said a lot about the technology and technology is a key element to the proposal in particular because the technology drives the control
it drives the gas token and it really puts a point out in a in a position to both succeed and control this chain and
control its future and decide its future but also to
You know profit off of it and see financial upside from the chain
But we're also happy to work with the community and we are of course working with horizon lab
Who's leading the growth efforts of the ecosystem because I'm not here pretending to be a long-term aid community per aid community member
I'm not I mean, I'm very excited about the aid community. I have
Want to be a member of the community long term and that's why we're doing this
But I don't have as much industry knowledge as a team like horizon and even other community members
And I think in order to ensure that this chain has a long-standing vision
That aligns not with what I think but with the community wants and whether the ape coin dad wants
And with a partner like horizon and with others as well with the technology that puts the community in the driver's seat to make sure
That this chain is not representing off-chain labs as well
It's not represented representing Stevens will but it's representing the true will of the community as
Evidence by how the community votes and the community will be able to vote on any aspect of the chain with that
Let me pass off to I mean, actually, let me just I don't know if Spencer has anything to add to that
I've been speaking for a while. So with that I I yield
That I would add to that and can everybody hear me by the way because I know i've been having weird issues with twitter
So the only thing that I would add to that is that you know
When we talk about the community as well, I do want to make really clear
That's not just horizon labs as well, right horizon labs is part of the community
You know, I believe that we are well positioned to
Collaborate with the community to talk to the community and to work with them and you know
Everybody knows that I have been very gung-ho about going out there and making sure that we are getting that input
And I think that that also goes back to what steven was saying before which is that yeah
We are hoping that you know those who?
You know don't make it through this proposal process assuming that we are the ones that do
You know that they are coming to the table and that everybody is ready to collaborate and ready to build this together
Um, that's going to be the most important thing going forward
But beyond that steven, I think you did a great job of covering the introductions
Perfect perfect. Um, well, yeah, thank you guys for the great overview the great introduction to your proposals. I mean I think
I mean you covered everything. I mean you covered half of everything in the entire
You know blockchain ecosystem there and in elaborating on the implications for building the blockchain and it's
It's important because these are the things that we're now considering
Uh, and we we got so deep into the technical there
I do think it would be maybe interesting to talk about the this aspect of branding
It does come up a lot in our community
the ape coin community was
Uh granted the trademark to use the the board ape yacht club logo as part of our a point logo on the a point token
And so this question of you know, where is ape coin in this entire ecosystem does tend to come up
and in particular with this proposal one of the things that
Came up during the discussions was this idea that we might have or end up with more than one ape chain and in doing so
Potentially creating difficulty for our partners our ecosystem partners in deciding or
To really support a chain. Um, so maybe just diving a little bit into this idea of branding
Is your proposal suggesting that it would be the exclusive ape chain of the ape coin ecosystem?
Yeah, it's it's a good question and you know, ultimately look the community has a right to deploy multiple networks if it wants to
Um, our recommendation is that there be one
Right that this be the exclusive one
Um, you know again if the community decides to that's one thing
But it would obviously increase the complexity for developers. It would confuse users. It would confuse partners
Um, you know, this is also we talk about this as being a gaming focus chain, but it's also a permissionless chain
You know, we do expect that defy projects would start up there. I know that that's been a focus of
You know some of the other teams particularly the optimism and a team proposal as well
But you know, there's a place for all that here too
uh, but ultimately yeah, I think that
Goals should be one ape chain to unite everybody
All right, good fair uh, I'll just add to that briefly
Go ahead one thing which is like I think if we the best way to get to two or three ape chains is to get there
From a position of strength. So let's saturate the first ape chain. Now, let's build a cluster
We have a concept called a chain cluster or some people call it super chain where you have multiple chains that work together
but I think that should be from a position of technology and strength and an ecosystem adoption like let's get to the point where we
Need to but not get to the point where we as a community can agree and therefore we just have different things because
Different people's will I think we need to get together and I can tell you that like, you know
If arbitrary loses this I I don't have an interest in confusing the community and building and building a chain
That's using the arbitrary technology. I think the community needs one chain
And that's what we propose
I'm going to try to try to breeze through as many of these of these topics these questions as we can since we are
You know sort of in this hour long time frame here
And I want to give the co-host here an opportunity to jump into some topics too
But one of the things you guys brought up and one of the things that's sort of relevant as well in this branding or this partnership
Development discussion is the sort of sub organizations that would be established
As a result of this proposal your proposal
So there's the one there's the security council and the members that you've suggested there
uh along with the the various roles and
Expectations compensations for those folks and then this idea of a data availability committee the DAC
We love our our acronyms here in the DAO
So I have the DAO with a chain and a DAC the DAO with a DAC
And then within this DAC various organizations that are able to you know act as contributors or partners
In in assuring the safety of the transactions of the chain, and I I do see one of the partners you guys have already
Uh indicated would be magic eden. So clearly some alignment with the immediate ecosystem there
But can you just can you can you just elaborate a little bit more on sort of the implications of these these sub organizations?
And you know, we don't have to go, you know too too much into it
but just just a little bit and and
As it relates to sort of the branding and the partnership the development of this chain more so than the technical implications
Yeah, so so just very briefly and i'll try not to get too technical
Um, the two structures here are the DAC or the data availability committee and the security council
Data availability committee is when you have transactions, there's data associated with them that needs to be put somewhere
You can put that data on ethereum, but it's expensive
Arbitrum has something called any trust technology that uses a data availability committee
And the tldr is it's a lot cheaper for users and gets you to the price point which works for gaming chains
Um, it also is an opportunity
And it has a trust model where there can be many members on the committee and everything works if you trust two of them
So what you want to do is you want to get different members throughout the ecosystem that you trust will not collude together
Or not all of them will collude together basically and that's why having a diverse set of members on the DAC
I think is very important as you want there to be from a security perspective, but it's also an ability to give people
Um a part of the chain and feel part of it and have I think it's it's really a uniting factor
So we have some really strong
Initial members that have committed to be on the data availability committee
I for example think that yuga if they would accept would be a great member of the data availability committee as well
And I think potentially some of these others proposing today might be interesting members of the DAC too
And that's a discussion for the community
Afterwards and then the second one is of course the security council and the security council
So remember the the dao is going to control everything
All the on-chain tactical decisions will be directly in control of the dao assuming that the ape coin is the is chosen as the governance token
but then there's a question of like let's say there's like some critical event and
You can't go to the dao and say hey
I just found this bug and if you like and you don't expect this to happen
But you always want an affordance of what if I just found this bug that you can exploit like a million dollars
You put that on the dao forum and say hey dao
That's not good because then you give the bad guys the heads up of the bug and before the dao can do anything
It's it's exploited. So in particular
Unusual not expected to arise situations
You want there to be a set of users that can act quickly and do something to the chain in private
Um, but you obviously that's all this is significant power and therefore, you know the arbitral community
There are 12 members from throughout the community, you know distributed throughout the world
Um strong community members and you need nine of them to do anything
Quickly and we envision something similar with uh, the ape coin dao to have different community members who are very trustworthy
Trustworthy stewards of the chain distributed independent of each other and to have the ability to do this
You know in the entirety of the artwork room technology's lifetime. The security council has never done an emergency action
It's never done an immediate action
So this is not something which we expect to use but it's a nice safety net to have there and that's sort of what these two
Committees are but as a high level there are also opportunities to bring in both individuals in the security council and teams and other projects
associated with the community in the DAC to have a part of this chain and really
Be part of its security and part of its, you know central to its story and I think a united factor
Okay. Yeah, I mean I think it's uh, it's interesting the the the ability to sort of have this the set of avengers to secure
our chain where we've potentially got you know a brand like magic eden or yuga labs or an off chain lab sort of coming together and
Providing relevant, you know domain expertise to
Not only secure our chain, but also sort of strengthen our brand
Um, and and with that I I do want to turn it over to to all city and to urban
I know the other half of this discussion, you know
We've we've already gotten into the weeds quite a bit on the technical terms is this idea of partnerships developing the ecosystem building on the chain
Getting people excited to build on the chain
Um, and I do want to turn it over to all cities our governance working group stewarties
It's done a great job in our ecosystem of bringing different partnerships into the ecosystem. It's one of the judges now for the open campus
Uh forbs activation. So I mean we're talking about partnerships and brand activations
Couldn't have asked for a better co-host here in our ecosystem
But I do also, um, I want to save some time too after that to just to touch on the implications of a coin
As a gas token you guys were one of the the proposals that did suggest that we make that
Improvement or or we make that functionality for a chain and
As well as this idea of having an omni chain
Ape coin and sort of upgrading the contract so a couple more technical things
but first all city if you don't mind, would you would you please just
Uh break us into a little bit more of this ecosystem development discussion
Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, yeah, so I had a chance to speak with benzer a couple times and he's doing a really good job
I think uh him and isaac just reaching out to the community. So definitely I I feel that you know, all proponents
Within this rfp race have really come through and and shined in their own ways horizon and um and uh
Arbitrum here in a variety, but you know, I don't want to queue up too much time
But I really do appreciate that in in the effort that's going into that ecosystem growth
Yeah, you know lost just touched on there and I think it's so important
I appreciate stephen's honesty coming in saying that look i'm not part of the ape community, you know
It's something that i've wanted to experience, but you know, we're here now
Um, so yeah, so rather than just posing more questions
I mean i'm definitely interested to hear more about the creator the on-chain creator royalties, which I think is very interesting
Uh, and as las mentioned the gas token, um that stephen was talking about but yeah, just more
Just more to keep it moving for the sake of time
I just kind of wanted to give a little bit of kudos there
So great job in terms of your outreach and uh, really looking forward to see sort of like how this all finishes up
And uh, whoever comes out on top, um, just what they do moving forward. Yeah
Love it. All right. Um, I think I might have switched my audio there a little bit. Um, but urban
You joined us up on stage as well. Urban is one of our community members who's got um, some some relevant experience in our ecosystem
urban i'll maybe let you do your own introduction, but we did invite you up here to to ask some questions and I know that
you've also sort of brought up the relevance of
Building a chain where people are using it as opposed to sort of creating
A ghost town in the middle of you know
the the ether space so urban if you don't mind just maybe like a light introduction for yourself and if you wanted to
Pose any questions here for the team. Appreciate you joining us today
Yeah, happy to join you guys, uh great to have you here
uh, yeah, i've been in space for about a decade at a bitcoin step early on let blockchain strategy at goldman sachs and then
I've also been an advisor within salon ecosystem presently particularly in letterplex. So i've been doing
a whole bunch of engineering and also
investment across different ecosystems, but um
I think uh arbitrum's, you know proposal is very exciting. Uh, because one
I would say that you guys have um
The technology but also a bit of the research behind it and I feel like most of the other
Uh ecosystems or technology they're particularly focused in that approach approach has not
Well proven or that can be perhaps backed by um research or just more
More heavy engineering. So, um, but to follow up on your comment, I think
Yeah, one of the things that is is very concerning is that not only that people are focused on attack
But that are not thinking around the use case in particular, right?
Like what would make people come to ape chain versus ronin for example, right?
Or even the mythical games chain that is coming out
Or even perhaps immutable x and so I would like to take it this route, you know after after we address some of all cities
And happy to continue the discussion as well
Yeah, so I think it's going to be a couple of parts to that one is I think that
There's a key differentiator with ape chain, which is the ape brand
Like we're losing spence again here unless it's me
Yeah, yeah, I think we got a little rug
No, yeah irvin, I think that that was what we wanted to to get into so
I don't know steven if you wanted to provide some perspective while we get spencer reset
Yeah, sure, uh, let me um, yeah, I guess I guess start there and I mean the the idea is
This is something actually we deal with a lot generally in the arbitral ecosystem, which is um,
There are a bunch of really really good
Gaming uh chains and gaming uh platforms in the arvish ecosystem
And so so how do you differentiate yourself and like how do we think about that?
You know, this is that good for the ecosystem is a bad for the ecosystem
And you know, I think the way that I think about it is um
Via its connection to yuga via the interest that it's already and its community by the way, that's another really important one
Um, you know, uh, which should be underscored and should not be underestimated ape coins community
It has a really big sway and a really um, I think uh important position
Uh in the gaming ecosystem, that's not to say
That uh, there won't be others in the ecosystem
That's not to say that every game will join but it is to say that it has a solid foundations again from its ip
From its connection to existing gaming teams and just from its extremely strong community and those that are committed to it to it
And its success ape coin has a solid solid footing today
Um as as a as a gaming as a gaming ecosystem and the ability to join as a gaming powerhouse
I think that actually having uh, no no chain in any vertical will take all for it for this
I think there will always be a lot and therefore joining the arvish ecosystem where you're co-located with others
Has a particular benefits, right? So users are there already that's one liquidity is there already?
Um distribute, you know, just when you're distributing tech and the users are there and they can find that discoverability becomes very important and easy
technical upgrades changes that you can make
Two two ways number one changes that are ecosystem wide that benefit everyone are just going to happen
So if one gaming chain, you know, if you're in an ecosystem where gaming is sort of an afterthought
You're the only one doing gaming. It might not be a focus but in the arvish ecosystem. It's one of the I would say
Um two top focuses today with defi and gaming
Are the two top ecosystem focuses today if you had to go to three, it's probably a real world assets as well
But it's going to get a lot of benefit from the being a part of a larger ecosystem
It's a strong position is going to help it and the last thing is
I view the the flexibility and the ability to add stuff like creator royalties as a key differentiator here
So it's not going to be sufficient in my opinion
It wouldn't make sense for ape coin to just launch a vanilla chain where it doesn't do anything
But it should also think about hey
how do we leverage the technology to do things that speak to our brand and do things different and differentiate ourselves and that's where
You can tap into offchains research team tap into the arbuchan foundation's research efforts and tap into your community's desires
You say hey, we want to do this
Can this be done and we say yes
This can be done on the arbuchan mortgage stack and hey, you know
We can help you get there and I think so differentiating yourself is important
but the ape coin community has already shown its ability to differentiate yourself and establish itself as a key player and to turn some of
those community and ecosystem differences and
Into and those ideas into technology that actually gives people creator royalties as an example
But again, there are probably many many other examples as well
I think is going to be a big differentiator and that's something which the arbuchan technology uniquely enables you to do if you go to
These other proposals you're not going to be able to change
The technology in these ways that really you know, give it your own brand and give it your own feeling
All right. Well note this up if we ever ask steven a question in the future he's going to go technical
See I didn't want to take that one with spencer drop
Can you guys can you guys hear me now or have I is it just keep continuously going me? Okay
I just switched computers so i'm hopeful that we won't continue to have those issues
Um the non-technical answer
In addition to what steven was saying that I think is is really important is yet the brand is going to be very important here
Board apes have the opportunity to be kind of the mario brothers or the halo or whatever you have you of this world
And I think that that's something that's been missing from web3 gaming to this point
Obviously having great games on day one is going to help
Obviously doing everything that can be done to incentivize and grow the community and get everybody involved
It's going to help a lot as well
And then you know ease of access is going to help
having best in class on ramps and off ramps and wallets and wallet abstraction and just
Everything that can be done to make it easy for people to get in and play really great games here
Um, those are going to be the big things
Yeah, I mean i'll say the urgent yeah, I want you guys to have an opportunity here. So please either you
Yeah, no just to kind of build off of that and I just dropped up in the birds us there linked to the eight chain voting
If you like what you're hearing definitely go check that out. You can check out all four proponents
But yeah, no spencer. I love it. And uh again that outreach that you're doing is fantastic
So, you know, what are some examples of you know, how do you foresee sort of this ecosystem growth, right?
So we know that you're doing all this outreach
Love the fact that that you guys mentioned that you're going to be reaching out to the other proponents. I think that's really really important
Um, everybody's, you know, really putting in so much effort here and bringing a lot to the table
So what are some examples of just sort of uh, how you sort of foresee?
This growth this ecosystem growth moving forward and some of the some of the uh, just some of the things that you've got in store potentially
Yeah, um, and it's a great question
So it's going to be a multi-step process
The first part of it is going to be about ease of access to ape and working with the partners at layer zero
Making sure that ape is available not just on ethereum but in other ecosystems on arbitrum for example, obviously as well
On eon on our side on you know as many others as makes sense
Um, you know making sure that those things are in there making sure that we're talking to the community
About setting up things like cross-chain voting if there's a desire for that so that people can move their a point onto a chain
And still be able to vote in the a point down
Um, all those things are going to be the first step
You know at the same time as we kind of get ready for that initial launch
Yes, um making sure that the initial games and and sort of triple-a games and big things are launched in there and building the excitement
Around it and also making sure that all the infrastructure is there particularly the infrastructure for developers
Um, you know, whether that be the analytics tools the telemetry tools the developer tools sdk's and cetera
Um are all really really solid and in place
And then you know as we get ready to really bring the community on board making sure that there are really strong community programs
Um, you know working very closely with the thank ape folks working very closely
With any other sort of incentive and and onboarding folks as well that we can bring in there is going to be hyper important
You know ultimately I think in some ways the easy thing will be getting
Some of those triple-a and important titles in
Uh, the hard thing is going and the thing that really has to happen is making sure that this is you know
A chain by apes for apes and made by apes, right?
Um in that it's not a top-down development. So there's going to be a lot of concentration on working with the community
Setting up working committees as need be
Being in touch with everybody
Um, you know and sort of bringing more of that ape ip
And other games that are aligned, you know and other projects that are aligned on board with that
And that's going to be the the very sort of high level version of the approach
No, I think that was a great response
And and I think for everybody here to to really recognize this is going to be the importance of attracting
Developers to the chain to build on top of the chain to really make a coin a destination. So I thought that was a good answer
All right, uh, well we're we're coming up here on the the last 10 minutes or so
So if anybody from the audience wants to request up or drop some comments in the bottom
We can get you up here address the comments questions for you
In the meantime, I mean one of the bigger implications of the proposal is this idea of ape coin as the gas token
It was it's quoted as the custom gas token. That doesn't mean we're creating a new token, but
That ape coin would be the custom token rather so
Again, we have like 10 or so minutes here. So if we could just maybe get like a short summary, uh
This is on the table and why this is a good idea. What might be the challenges and you know, why why us when?
Rari, you know all these other communities that have launched chains are kind of just using ethereum
Yeah, i'll start here and i'll try to be brief and try not to be too technical
but the answer is that I think it makes a ton of sense for uh, the ape
The censor of this chain both from a governance perspective but also from an economic value perspective
and the ape coin now, um, you know should
Be in the driver's seat here and from a technical technical perspective the antitrust technology enables you to do this in a way
That doesn't create a ton of cell pressure for the token
And it just makes I think um a ton of sense if you look at the arbitrum community arbitrum ecosystem
It's a roll up. So it has it doesn't make technical sense to not use eath and also
I think that just makes sense for that community and that community is
Right. The arbitrum community is really an extension of eath and it's just uh scaling eath
Um, and that's what it is. And therefore it makes sense to use eath. It's not trying to sort of uh, you know
brand chain whereas the you know
The it always was a scaling technology from day one its purpose from day one was to scale the eath whereas ape coin
Dow is an existing brand that has its own brand and has its own ip
and I think it makes a lot of sense for
It to uh use its token as the lifeblood of this ecosystem to give it
Both governance and also all the gas in that token and the technology enables that enables that it makes that it makes that possible
Let me let me pass the spencer if there are other considerations that we should mention
Particularly on this. Yeah, and because I know the question is not just
You know using ape as gas versus using eath as gas
I know that some of the other proposals for example talk about launching a new token and things along those lines
Um, you know what I would say is that ultimately this is a chain for the ape coin
Dow and so I think it needs to be centered around ape coin
Um, I think that that's really important. Um, you know, whatever else happens on chain will happen on chain
Um, but you know, I think that has to be the starting focus point
All right, um, well, I mean again if anybody's listening in and you've got more questions
Definitely feel free to jump up and ask them or throw them in the comment box
We've also got a forum. We've got a whole forum for these discussions
If you go to ape coin calm
You can click discussions up at the top find the forum all of these proposals are live
You can submit your own proposals
You only need one a point. You don't need a board if you don't need a mutiny
If you just need the one a point to be a part of the community
And we do have papo speaking of the community. She is one of our elected marketing communication stewards
As I mentioned at the beginning we are just here representing our personal opinions and not here on behalf of the foundation
But papo, please i'd love to hear
You know any questions comments concerns that that you might have regarding the whole ape chain discussion and particularly as it relates to the proposal here from
the horizon labs and blockchain lab seams
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, i'm very excited for
All this happened is very excited and also i've been looking for how you
Will be engaging with the acorn community also for the marketing standpoint
We do want to see if anywhere we could be a collaboration together to promote a chain because I think it's important
Improduce aging to the acorn down ecosystem as a sampti is a really good way to
We need to find a way to encouraging
Our acorn user to onboard to the asian person who are using the aip
When gaming it's a big part of our aip
Ecosystems too. So i'm very excited to see how we can onboard more gaming aip to our aging ecosystem. Yeah, we're looking for it
Love it. Love it. Love to hear it
And uh, it looks like we got our our favorite spork cat fork man up here evil plan is regular over on our apom stage
So i'm just kidding. Love to see you here
Uh, there's somebody with some experience in the ecosystem as well
So curious what you're thinking happy to hear some questions thoughts questions concerns, whatever you got evil
Thanks for having me up. Uh, yeah, just kind of a general question. I'm just kind of wondering um,
This is really arbitrary. I'm like, how are you guys thinking about both?
incentivizing and supporting and or supporting
That would be considering building on an ape chain assuming that it you know, assuming that your proposal passed and then
Secondly, how are you thinking about or what's your perspective on migrating potentially existing ip's like for example, you know
Something like pirate nation or or some other, uh, you know reasonable ip
Are are you considering that I guess?
Is he speaking and I just can't hear no
He might be speaking but we yeah, I don't think anybody can hear i'm evil
Well stephen do you want to take us on chain for their response?
Let me give you a very technical answer. No, i'm just kidding
It's a it's a good it's a great question. And I think um, you know part from part of being uh,
part of being part of a larger ecosystem is important and um
It definitely uh, I think will lead to users building this ecosystem. I don't think um
As part of the sort of built into this proposal incentives, you know, monetary incentives from the arbitrary foundation
That is not something that's built into this proposal if that's your question
Um, maybe i'm sure spencer could speak more to the growth plans
But uh, maybe if there's I don't know did I answer your question or maybe you can clarify here and if can you guys hear me now?
I'm sure I don't know why twitter has just been my worst enemy the last two days, but uh, that's okay
Yeah, so a couple of answers here
It's almost better when you pull rugs because now we know there's a couple answers and we just don't have them so
Let's get spencer back up let's get spencer back up
Yeah, like in the meantime. Thank you. Uh, thank you steven for joining us and thank you to the community for tuning in
We are gonna wrap it up here at the top of the hour if you guys want to join us up on stage
Though we still got time and we're struggling with spencer. But if you've got a technical question, we you know, we got steven here
You know curious about this idea of the omni chain a point contract to upgrade and maybe we can get into that
If we if we I guess if we have to is sort of the right language now because I don't see spencer
He's completely rugged out of existence
I'm into that. You have to send me a message so I can sort of uh, you know
Say what he's gonna what he was gonna say if that's helpful. That is very helpful
Basically, uh a few things number one is the arbitrant gaming system is largely collaborative collaborative
We have for example, if you look at the dow, they were just a gaming step effort underway
I think it's like 200 million arb. I think don't quote me on that but take a look and
Interoperability as well as champion throughout the ecosystem
So how do you go back and forth between these platforms and these games and these gaming steps, you know
So not one community is going to go to the dow itself but all gaming sort of bands together and says hey
We are arbitrant gaming and we and you know
Obviously a chain would be able to go as part of that and say we're an arbitrary gaming chain
You know, so there's there's no built-in, uh, you know and part of this part of this proposal
But it would be eligible to participate in ecosystem efforts and go to the dow
Just like and together with the other gaming ecosystems
So treasured dow for example does a great job here where it has an ecosystem, but also works with others to
To to to do that, um, you know, we expect our rich room gaming teams to find
Do to be excited to find ways to collaborate with the acos with the ape ecosystem and phyllis facilitate intros
Interoperability opportunities and joint funding opportunities
Um, also he said, um, we want to see additional um ip that pre-exists on there. For example
Um, we have the layer zero integration that makes it easy for you to take pre-existing assets and bridge them to the chain
So that is part of the growth strategy. Absolutely without naming any particular teams, but to start trying to
Open up and get some teams that exist today in other environments to make them go omnichain and come and join and deploy
Um, I think in terms of incentives we plan to make sure we're working with the community
Thank ape the arbitrary foundation as well as all its partners. And of course, like I mentioned directly is the arbitrary dow
Joining in any opportunities there together as one joint gaming ecosystem go take a look at the arbitrary dow forums
You'll see this is happening literally live now for gaming and something that in future iterations
If a chain is becomes becomes part of your arbitrary community
They can absolutely be a part just to clarify as a quick follow-up
So, I mean if i'm understanding what you're saying correctly, um, there's no specific
Incentives or aloe that you're you're planning to provide for companies looking at targeting a a coin chain specifically
But rather just as part of the overall kind of arbitrum, uh, I guess efforts in general
And I mean is this more like a sort of like if we build it they will come kind of perspective
No, it basically so it it speaks to how funding works in the arbitrary ecosystem more
I mean, yes to most of it, but no to the last part
So what I mean is the arbitrage foundation is its goal is to give you the the startup funds to
Not have to think about funds and to get up and running in the ecosystem
But then all large term grants and grants this is true for treasure and for xai and anyone else in the ecosystem today
They go to the dow and they go jointly to the dow and the dow has, you know
Roughly three and a point five billion arp tokens, uh in its treasury and they go to the dow for those larger grants
So this happens with defi too. There were two rounds of these steps. I think about 100 million arb
There's a big gaming one going on now. So the idea is like this is like it's not if you build it and will come because uh,
You know, there's so yes, there is no as part of this. It's just a startup funds
there is no incentive fund that's a proposed that's going to be there guaranteed but
It will be a part of the arbitrary ecosystem efforts and everyone else in the arbitrary ecosystem, you know does the same process
And if you look at history
Hundreds of millions of orbs have been deployed or currently being deployed
Many to gaming some to defi as well, of course, it's other efforts. So, um, it just plugs into that that ecosystem, but
It exists today, you know, it's happened for many teams and it's it's ongoing now
So you don't have to like sort of say like oh this is something that may come to fruition
The way that the ecosystem operates and you can go take a look at that and a name chain would absolutely
Be eligible to be part of future rounds. So there's no absolute guarantee, but but it's an existing process that's been working
Yeah, and that's something that will will obviously be helping to shepherd through
But just to be like super crystal clear you guys are not earmarking anything specifically
It's just like it like it may be i'm just like want to be very clear on this point
Uh, the only funds that are earmarked are the are the funds for the uh, the ras the um,
The uh, the block of spore and the security council. So those three years of funding for the shape, correct?
Boom super clear. He I mean it's right in the name evil plan. So he's gotta have an evil line of it
It wasn't i'm just kidding. I'm just
It was fine. It's all good. I mean we try to be
Up front and forward. I think it's you know, we're excited about it
But absolutely that those are those are the facts valid valid perfect. And yeah, I mean the fact I mean there's so many proposals here
So we definitely you know
Some of this might seem redundant or feel redundant for anybody that's listening or anybody that's speaking and there's always somebody new that's listening in
And people are hearing and always learning new things about the same things we've been discussing for weeks now. Ervin, please. What do you got?
Yeah, I mean uh, steven has a technical question but
I was just reviewing the forums and also some of the latest updates with the other
You know l2 infrastructure providers and as the case I noticed that there's a trend for some of them
Essentially supporting different types of vms. So I see that there's one with
Some other people are talking about solano vvm
Is there a roadmap for this kind of support for for arbitrum or where does arbitrum stand in that context for multi-vm support?
Yes, i'm glad you asked this question
Arbitrum is the furthest along when it comes to like multiple dm support
There's something called arbitrum stylus, which is not something that we're proposing in the forum, but exists today on testnet
With fraud proofs for it as well
And what it is is it gives you the ability to write code in other languages using the web assembly virtual machine
So the same machine that's used by your browser all over the internet and you can write code in rust
Similar to solana and near for example you can write code in c and c plus plus you can build bring in existing other libraries
And what differentiates this from anything that i've seen in any other ecosystem
There are ecosystems that talk about. Hey, let's get move support. Let's get rust support, but they're always like separate zones
You don't have like your solidity and your evm talking to these in, you know, it's sort of like a bridging experience
In arbitrum stylus, it's a direct experience. So you can have a single application for example that uses
Solidity it has, you know one expensive function
So it calls that out to rust and you can basically mix and match these vms and not only that
When you're talking to a contract in arbitrum stylus, you don't even know what language is written in. It's all abstracted away
Besides for the language benefits and the library benefits it actually so it has a bunch of benefits one is people you can you know
Reach out to gaming teams that write in c and c plus plus their gaming engine say hey
You can just bring that on chain
You can bring your knowledge on chain like your people already know what to do here
but not only that you have your all your libraries you've developed this for the past decade and you can just use that on arbitrum and
You're not in like a second class citizen
Look, it's a first class citizen
It looks all the same and not only that it turns out to be a scaling solution too because it turns out these other languages
And they're optimized compilers are more performant than the vms
So by using stylus, you'll get like a roughly it depends on the workload, but on the order of a 10x
So an order of magnitude benefit and computational costs
100x with two order of magnitude benefit for a memory cost and
This is not something which is an adult for and we're trying to get people to to fund and propose to something which is literally
Been in development. It's released the code is public
It's on test net today with the fraud proof. So arbitrum doesn't only have it's not only the only one that has fraud proofs
For all these other languages as well
Working today on test net my expectation is it will be ready for me that this year is currently undergoing audit and security diligence
But again, you can use it. You can try it
And the cool thing is the arbitrum chain the public chains will be able to vote for themselves
Hey, do we want to upgrade arbitrum one or arbitrum?
Nova to use stylus, but the eight coin now, this is a great example. We'll be able to vote
We think about this. We want our chains to be stylus enabled
It will take its vote and if its vote goes through then boom
It can use the same code as the arbitrum dow to take a stylus on chains
So I would say and you know very confidently. Arbitrum is the furthest along for multiple of the uh, vms
I don't think other chains have any near-term path to do this, but an arbitrum chain chains
I'm fully confident because the code is written and exists
It's just going through security diligence will have a path in 2024 to have multiple vms operating seamlessly
Fraud-proven secured by ethereum in a single chain and that doesn't include a say like move today
But you can easily add other languages to it
The first languages are rust c and c++ and you can go ahead and expand it from from there and you know as the community wants
That's uh, definitely really exciting to hear and I actually
Do agree with you on that aspect. I've looked into what you guys are doing with stylus and slightly presentation
and I think this is particularly important just to reiterate your point is because
You know, there's different libraries or different even standards, right that have been written that could be reused
All across so i'm definitely all for that
uh a quick follow-up question on that topic
um, so I I talked about this also early on in the forums and in spaces because
I think it's important in terms of like the future and how
Developers get on board is that you want to make sure that they use languages or tools that they're most comfortable with right?
But I think there's a bit of misconception from the folks in the communities
They kind of thought that you know, like a layer two, um should be just plain regular
ethereum vanilla vm with solidity
Right and so just to to clarify in that aspect
You're saying that with arbitral and we could just expand the the vm or essentially a vote to have um,
stylus we support to correct
uh, and also wanted to get your take on that on also kind of like changing the vm a little bit to
Kind of fit some of the business cases or needs
First of all, we call this evm plus because everything I mentioned is supplemental to the evm
So if i'm wrong and no one finds is interesting the evm is not going anywhere arbitrant has best in class
evm compatibility evm equivalent same, you know under the hood and and and over the hood same as
As ethereum and that's not going anywhere. So this is all now evm plus
So you have the evm as the base and these are additional things you can use
And in the evm so you can and other other things you could do like to say you're you're just a deck
You know, you're a dex today say you're uniswap today
you can go ahead and just
Take your application rewrite it and just get better scalability if you want or you can leave it and same for same for everyone else
so, um evm is not going anywhere as number one, but in terms of like the sort of uh
Moral or uh, I don't know if that's not the right word
But the question here of like should uh an evm should uh there too even you know
Is it like blasphemous for a layer two to use another language?
Actually, I don't think it's blasphemous for ethereum to depart from the evm or supplement the evm if it made sense
And in fact, i'm not alone in that view because if you go back in history a little bit a couple years
There was a project called ewasm, which was basically exactly stylus
Uh not in its implementation but in its goal
Which was let's add wasm web assembly the thing that stylus has alongside the uh, the evm alongside solidity
And let's get both on chain because you know
Ethereum is not the evm ethereum is its community and by the way
I don't think that there's anyone in the world today that wouldn't you know
I don't think there's anyone in the world today that would say it created exactly as it was so
The idea the reason why the evm is important is because it has years of dominance and has years of activity and built-up activity
Has community behind it as code behind it and that's important and we should cater to that and shouldn't go anywhere
but there's nothing like you know, um, you know, it's sack you know, there's nothing like super like, uh,
Um sacrificial or that's not the right word. I don't know what word it was before but there's nothing like super like
You know religious about the evm that like oh, how dare we move from the evm?
The evm is important because of its adoption and we should keep it because of that and stylus does keep it
But if we can add to the evm if we can get wasm and and and other languages like rust and c and c++ and move
Like there's no purity test here that like we have to be evm
We want to give people the best user experience and if we can do that on ethereum, I think it would be wonderful
You know ewasm project it was before maybe earlier than its time wasm wasn't as developed then it didn't succeed for technical reasons
But like the community didn't have an out a backlash and say hey, no, we need to uh, we need to only be evm
There's nothing in my opinion. That's like
Critical that like evm, you know must be the only thing
I think that that's there are some evm purists that say that but I personally don't understand it
And if you look at others in evm community that supported ewasm like I don't think they understand it either
So, um, I think expanding past evm is a great opportunity for arbitrum for ape chain and for ethereum
Hey stephen, I got a quick question for you. What would you say to the to the average sort of everyday user?
Um who may be concerned or hears that there could be security concerns with the layer 3
I don't believe it's true. I
even on this channel where we had some expressing those those those questions and concerns and I think that a lot of that is uh
Fud and you know, it's like if you're like, uh
Don't want to back this proposal and you want to find something different and something that sort of sounds not exciting
They'll point to that like I'd be happy to engage technically on those points. I don't see that. Um as as a concern
I think um, if you're a layer 3 you go ahead and you get your security from arbitrum one
Which gets a security, you know from ethereum and I think it's a pretty good security security point to be
Um, but that being said like I said, I started earlier on if the community doesn't want to be a layer 3
It's not my place to force it there at the arbitrum expansion pack
Which gives a path for the community to be a layer 2 and I I would say that this is totally in the hands of the community
There are many benefits of being a layer 3 much lower on warning costs much lower cost supposed to ethereum
Particularly when transaction volume is not that high which could happen in the early days
So I think that there are significant benefits of layer 3 other than sort of a stigma that some have created
I don't think there's an issue
It's not my place to tell you the stigma is wrong if the stigma is one that the community has that by all means
Then you shouldn't be a layer 3
The only thing i'll say is this is reminiscent of you know conversations
Five or six years ago when we said and we were the only ones at this point saying this
We're building a layer 2 and like investors like what are you guys doing a layer 2?
No one wants to be a layer 2 you got to be a layer 1 you got to compete with ethereum
You got to and we're like no we like ethereum we want to build on top of it
It makes a lot of sense to have a layer 2
And that was actually a conversation that had six years ago people thought layer 2s couldn't succeed. They were sort of you know
Cannibalizing themselves by being secondary to another brand and none of that turned you know played out
We're seeing layer 3 is not only the arbitrary ecosystem. We're seeing interest in the say the base ecosystem
I think that the community is ahead of its time
But I think in three years from now
It will be a naturalized thing where everyone accepts as it's a part of the community
But again if we're too early and the community this community doesn't want it. That's all that matters
So I can talk from today to tomorrow why I don't perceive to be there to be a security issue
I only perceive there to be benefits
But ultimately i'm not the decision maker and the community is and if that's an issue
It's not you don't have to throw out the whole proposal for that. You can say let's go with arbitrum and let's you know
You know with the arbitrant technology staff. It's not critical to to the proposal
To be a layer 3, but I think it's the right choice
Appreciate the versatility awesome
Evil, but just a quick question on kind of when when you were touching on evm support earlier
And I totally apologize if you covered this earlier. I kind of jumped in a little bit late. Um, i'm wondering about
Support for specific op codes that are coming out of a theory and like so for example
I'm thinking specifically about something like prev randau which came out of the merge, right?
And so, you know some in some instances this has been kind of
Semi-no opt out where it's been like block difficulty instead of you know, instead of like the actual prev randau
Enter precede and i'm just kind of wondering like how are you thinking about support for?
More implementation specific op codes that ethereum that the evm may introduce as time moves forward and kind of where are you at?
with your support currently
Yeah, I think that there's like, uh, sometimes, you know lagging factor here because yeah, and this is something actually
We're going to see it a few weeks the ip 4844. So, um, ethereum is going to introduce it
I think you'll probably have in this case at least a couple of days till arbitrum introduces it
Other ecosystems will do it immediately
And that's that's and that's the difference in in the way that it's governed
No one in the arbitrum ecosystem has the ability to do things immediately. It all has to be
Our goal my goal at off-chain labs is to create the technology that we need to
Remain in full parity with the evm. There will be some
If you go if you query for the block number at arbitrum, you'll get the evm block number with the ethereum block number
We think that's the right choice. But like it's a little bit beyond beyond the scope here
So there will be some some differences potentially but like I think we're we're and that will be true for any layer, too
Um, but ultimately our goal is to retain full parity of the evm and everything we do on top of it
To really just be supplemental to it
Eip4a4 is a good example, you know, we have the prism team in house
We have support ready option amicable that it's going to take the community, you know
So probably a couple more days to get that ready
My guess is there will be a proposal that goes out soon and you know in a month's time
We can be ready for the community to adopt it. I think that's a good safety net
So I can't comment on what the arbitrum dow will choose to implement the niche chain
I also can't comment in what ape chain will choose to implement the niche chain
but I can comment in comment on is
What we at offchain labs will do and we will create the technical affordances to remain
With full parity as possible with evm and its decisions it makes and also supplement on top of that but not in conflicts
So those code that that will be available. There may sometimes be a lagging effect
Particularly because of governance delays sometimes because of development delays. Um, but ultimately our goal is is full parity
Love it. Love it. Well, you get these these technical guys in the room and we're going to build the whole chain up here today
Who knows what's going to happen?
But appreciate everybody's time. I want to respect everybody's time
We did just kind of plan for the one hour session. We've gone a little bit over that today
So appreciate you guys for spending the time here to go into detail more about your proposal
Is there anything we missed anything that wasn't covered that you want to touch on before we wrap it up steven or spencer?
So we're really excited, you know, please remember to go vote hopefully for us, but just in general
Um, you know voting ends tomorrow as everybody knows and you know, my dms are always open if you have any other questions
likewise, thank you everyone for uh
bearing with my technical, uh
explanations today and um
Super excited for this to come live be it um, arbitrary technology be elsewhere again
I'm hopeful for arbitrary technology. I think it's the best decision for the community
But ultimately it's the community's choice and the community will decide what's his best decision. So yeah, go ahead and vote for
Whichever one you think is the best option and we're excited to see the community moving forward in any direction that it chooses
Thank you. Happy valentine's day again. Thanks everyone for joining us
And yeah before we go as well. I mean we do have our marketing communication steward pop will up here
You got a governance working group steward
I'll city up here and thank you as well irvin from the community here for spending some time with us and taking time
In coordinating some of these questions and the agenda in general
But uh pop will anything else but anything from you before we go anything you're you're thinking anything you wanted to leave us with
I'm all cool. I'm losing a lot today. Yeah, let's go great. Go be together
Yeah, we're gonna have to listen back to this one not on 1.5
But on like 0.5 and you have to listen back at half speed all city anything from you before we go
No, I think it's good. Always fun catching up with spencer
And I thought steven did a really good job sort of breaking down some of that that technical stuff jokes aside
I think he did a very good job
Um, and it was pretty digestible overall so good to face just appreciate it
Love it. Love it. Ervin. How about how about for you? And thanks again for for joining us and all the questions
Nothing happy valentine's i'm gonna gift a few people some ape coin I guess
Send it send it. We love to hear it steven. I forgot one more question. This is the hardball question
When are we going to see a real ape profile picture? Sorry small guys
Oh, no, you're gonna be in trouble here. Oh, yeah, I went there
um, that's a great question, um, but I will
um, if we win everything was all cool when we were talking about the
decentralized governance and
I've already promised everybody that i'm going to work on you too. So
Okay, i'll tell you this so if arvish from wins this I definitely will have to add an ape to the rotation
That's all we could ask for that's that's fair enough. That's fair enough. Thank you again. Thanks for for joining us
We got to play a little bit here. We are still a culture down. This is a big shift for us
I mean up until this point
We really have been just a social dal with a lot of community members a lot of
Active community members a lot of participation a lot of contributors
Other dals looking in seeing this community are definitely envious
This does not exist in every other doubt the treasury aspect doesn't exist the amount of people that are interested that are
Available that are capable of participating in contributing. It does not
Exist so i'm looking forward to seeing how this evolves i'm looking forward to this progression into a
More of a protocol dal in us as a community having a little bit more
Uh to talk about than than just about each other. We love each other, but but let's let's build some stuff
Let's build some cool stuff. Let's let's keep it moving. We're gonna play some music. Thanks again. Everybody for joining us
You got until tomorrow. You got until wednesday 6 p.m. PST to get your vote in so just under uh, just under
What 30 hours an hour so get your votes and don't wait it's valentine's day tomorrow if you're waiting on
Your significant other if you haven't got your flowers or your chocolates, at least you're definitely in trouble
You're not going to be able to sneak out today. It's already too late. So i'm sorry. We tried to warn you