All right. Can you hear me, okay?
I can hear you. Yeah, hi. We're just waiting a few minutes to get everyone on the Twitter spaces and then we can get started.
I've been heard from you in a while how you been. It has been a while, but no, it's been good.
and busy with archaed, that's for sure.
Oh man, we know. We know what that's like. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure you guys do better than most.
We're just waiting for Eric to hop on in to have a few more listeners and then we can get started. Thank you so much for being here.
What's up guys long time no talk
Eric, are you mad? Been a while for sure. How's the upgrade going today?
That's right. It's wonderful as always, as they always go. I found a cool error message that was like only two GitHub issues have ever existed for it, so that was just great.
Yeah, but we're on mine now, so I think it's all good now. Good job, guys. All is good. I was up and running now we have to get the storage providers locked in loaded and then we have a dashboard before watching hopefully come more over the next day.
Very, very cool. I've been talking to a couple more dApps on the archway front that uh
seem to need to use you guys for a lot of things. So it's gonna be fun seeing what kind of use cases we can make together.
That's for sure. We're just super excited to have the product out in ramen and be the I guess the storage hub. Everything's a hub on the set. I guess we're storage hub. You guys are smart contract hub.
is all the rage right now. Everyone wants to be up.
Okay, so I think you can go ahead and get started. So thank you everyone who's tuning in. I'll be your host, Valeria. And today we have Marston, which is the CTO of Jackal Labs and Patrick, the CEO of Jackal Labs, along with
Eric, our tokenomics lead at FireLabs, and Crypto-Kem aka Max, who is leading our BD efforts. So if you guys want to go ahead and give a round of introductions, we'd love to go ahead and listen to you. So, Marcin, do you want to take the lead on that?
Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having us. So as you said, my name's Marston. I'm the CTO of Jackal Labs. We're working on the Jackal Protocol building decentralized storage in the cosmos.
Patrick, do you want to take it away? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Patrick. I'm the CEO of Jocolabs and what I do at is more often
operations focused and trying to keep everyone on pace to produce the best block game possible. So that's kind of what I do and pass it on to CryptoCat.
Yeah, like you mentioned, Valeria, I'm part of the business development team over at Fy Labs, one of the core contributors to Archway. I work with Kyle, who I'm not sure if he's on the call, but we're kind of leading the BD efforts over there.
Yeah, and also be on with the jackal guys. I've had a good relationship with them for a long time now. I've started over kind of the secret network and it's cool to see that we're partnering up with them now here at
And while crypto can is leading business, I am following business of in a two and most tokenomics up over at by labs and a lot of apps involved there, but really really soaked to see the ways we can collaborate can be a fun conversation.
Definitely. So to give some context, Jackal Labs is going to be one of our Genesis validators once the archery protocol is live. But then we are also looking to explore cloud
collaborations in Jackal Protocol. So do you guys want to talk a little bit about what you guys are doing at Jackal Labs, the initiatives that are that you guys are taking on and kind of like where you're at with Jackal Protocol?
Yeah, absolutely. This is perfect. So what we do at Jackalops, Jackalops is an R&D property where we go co-paint and we hope Jackal Particle would be one of those. So the other thing that Jackalops to earn revenue is we also are validator on multiple chains. So we validate on
Archway agendas, Akash, Secret Network, and Evmos are the four that we validated on. What we're looking to do to have compliance with the archway team specifically, and then the actual protocol, is we're looking to provide data storage using blockchain technology.
and distributed peer-to-peer networks so you can have a place to store your data that isn't a Amazon or a Google Cloud. And for this use case, what you can do is we can build outposts on different blockchains, including our swaying where people can have access to the ability to store.
larger files because right now you can only fit about one kilobyte of data on chain which is probably the same size as a tweet. So what we're doing is looking to provide really scalable storage for really large data sets kind of similar to a file coin or an ARI, but we're since
our Cosmos L1 blockchain and we have modular blockchains and we have the ability to be a little bit faster with group estate and we can also provide a really scalable, fast and a hot storage experience that you're used to with a Google Drive or an Amazon S3.
Awesome, that's great to hear. What are some of the possible integrations that the archery protocol could explore with Jackal Protocol? Eric, do you want to take this one? Yeah, so one of the core issues with public blockchains is that
If they're going to be used like a database and they're database that everyone has access to and if you want any kind of proprietary modeling, any kind of private data, you need to have a data storage center that has private access control pretty much exactly what Jack will is building. I actually got to speak to them for a podcast that will be releasing here
pretty quickly. We go into some good depth about it. But anyone else who's trying to tackle the storage problem in crypto is not making hot storage. Basically, it's good if you want to lock something away for years. But if you want to have access to it and actually be able to use it, especially regularly, it either doesn't work or it's incredibly expensive. And what they're offering is
really better pricing than what's available on Amazon Web Services, but also just for better services, whereas decentralized where you have like, approval privacy, not like something some equi or equifax breach that's going to give you your data stolen. And so ways that it can work right now is, well, one call I had again today is somebody that's going
me doing 3D printing models where the 3D design is going to be an NFT and the designs for that need to be private. So they'll have NFTs on our way that have the design for the mesh stored privately on jackal.
and then be used for real world business so available in like at CNN as well just like and that's just one of the apps that we've been talking to that's going to utilize Jack while building on archway and you get the best of both worlds private storage for cheaper as well as the monetary, like monetary, composability that's offered at archway.
Yeah, 100% and just to kind of build on that a little bit Eric specifically is the ability to have paywalls in front of data or permissions in front of data is not something that we're able to do completely permissionously on chain right now. And what we're looking to build is something where you can have
really large data set store on chain, whether it be a 3D printed model or whether it be a really valuable data set or deliverable from a professional service. But what you can do is you can have everything controlled in a smart contract, whether that's on archway or elsewhere, and really have awesome
in front of your data, which is really cool, and that kind of bleeds into the idea of data.dows with multi-sake contracts and other things where you can have data marketplaces on our way through NFT marketplaces very similar to what you're talking about with the 3D printing. But I think it would also be a little bit interesting to see how integrated
which is really interesting that's going to be coming to Cosmos and this is what we would be leveraging to kind of have an output on our trade for them to be able to use the protocol. So, Marc, Marc, and if you can talk about interchained accounts a little bit and
how you can do all that good stuff. I think that would be really interesting. Yeah, for sure. So that's kind of one of the best parts about Cosmos is that everything's connected through IBC. And the Jackal Protocol is Cosmolism-enabled blockchain, which gives us the ability to deploy a smart
contract over on the jackal protocol which then can communicate with a smart contract over on archway so you can interact with the smart contract on archway that lets you basically control your own jackal account. It lets you post files, it lets you sign those deals
and it lets you create those file tree entries that allow us to keep your data private and all that good stuff all while fully going IBC instead of needing to interact directly with the jackal protocol which is really really just fantastic. So this would be kind of that
of privacy as a service that we've talked about quite a bit in this space, right? Yeah, for sure, especially because all of the jackal data is encrypted on your machine before it ever leaves. We wouldn't be dealing with any information leaking over the IBC
channel because as I say it goes straight to our storage providers, they make it post to the jackal protocol. Then from there, essentially you go through that archway to jackal account bridge and you sign that contract with the storage provider and your file is there.
being stored for however long you decide. I think something that would be really helpful to our listeners right now would actually be kind of like a layout of what the current privacy landscape looks like in Cosmos, as well as like the data encryption landscape. So if you guys want to give some context, that would be really great.
Yeah, for sure. So there's a few that are being developed, I think, the number is one, but the only blockchain right now with programmable privacy, and this is something that's important if you want the ability to, let's say, have social interactions with
Data on chain for example, where you need the ability to have things private but also the option to share something with someone else. You need something about programmable privacy. Right now the only block chain with programmable privacy would be secret network and they have general privacy.
across the board. Jockel doesn't have general privacy. We have a few things that are public, which we had to sacrifice for a little bit of a speed boost and additionally the ability for us to be a little bit more efficient and resilient for our specific use case. So we
you specific privacy where tokens are public, how much data someone has purchased to store as public, but the data itself, what data you own, the names of the data, we can call them files for a little bit easier. So for example,
When someone looks at the on-chain data, they won't be able to read every single file that you have, for example. And if you pretty much everything other than how much storage you purchased is private and also how many tokens you have is private.
From data encryption side, there's no other similar use case to us currently in the cause most. There's some people who
take data and they post it to AR weave from from blockages. I know that but Marc said you don't know anything on the dating encryption side if there's anything in the Cosmos ecosystem other than us.
As far as encryption goes, I don't believe so I know so for secret they're using what's called a TEU or a trusted execution environment, which is basically at the hardware level. All of your data goes in and out in an encrypted state and then the actual blockchain itself and all the value
validators are using their hardware to make sure that there's no data leaking out. That's not supposed to be leaking out. That obviously comes with some challenges as it needs very specific hardware, which isn't always the easiest to find. And then as far as
Alternative encryption models. I mean there's homomorphic encryption if we look at something like Dero, but they are a little bit different where they don't have full programmable privacy That is still not something that homomorphic encryption has overcome yet. You can still do a lot
with private balances and potential specific use cases like private ride shares like Ubers that's all really cool stuff that can be done with homomorphics if you're looking at something like jack will we just use
traditional AES encryption, which is industry standard for all of our files. And then as far as other computation, there's not much else. So smart contracts that are fully encrypted are not very big right now.
because they come with a lot of trade-offs, but I know there is work being done to make homomorphic a little more popular and usable. And just to kind of learn on that, the reason why we can't be fully homomorphic is we need the ability for if I store a file in Jaqueline I want to share my files
with with Marston for example, I wouldn't be able to do that unless I have a certain degree of programmable privacy and we do a little bit of a reencryption scheme as well to make sure that you and your down members can have your own Google Cloud type environment on jaco and be able to spare your data between each other.
Awesome. And then wait Eric did you want to say something? I was just gonna talk about how you can have the most private of meme chats but in general I'm a huge fan of projects that are going to market
market with a product rather than just making more magic internet things that are pretend good in and of themselves. So I was hoping you guys would talk about the actual business model of what you guys are selling.
Yeah, well, so when you look at blockchains they kind of have this flywheel model where you have kind of four different things that need to go into a blockchain for you to get that escape velocity and create a motor round if you want to look at the protocol as a business, right? So the Jacob protocol we have
people who purchase the jacquitokin for access to storage. You have developers, so third party developers that want to come build. You have validators and storage providers which are really important for the splice will to go. And then you have users that use the product which then creates a community and then starts to fly over again.
So when you look at the jocke protocol, how does the jocke protocol increase revenue? We are similar to traditional blockchains, for example, where you saw block space. And that's how that's one stream of revenue. Other things that jocke protocol does is we have a name service called RNS that's built into the block.
The reason why we want RNS is so you can share files to human readable names rather than wallet addresses which can get pretty lame and that's kind of why. Name services are pretty big. The other thing that Jocco does which is unique is the Jocco protocol earns revenue by selling unique amount of terabyte
So essentially the more data, the more files that you just store on the network, that is a big portion of our flywheel and that's how the storage routers get paid. So they get paid based on how much, what percentage of the network data that's encrypted is stored on their machine. If that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes perfect sense. You have an actual real-world product that is better than the competition what currently exists. And you can sell it to real users. It's everything that was promised.
Yeah, it's crazy, right? Yeah, it's one of those concepts that I feel is just becoming a
You know, front of mind for a lot of people is what's the what's the model behind the token? It seems like that's kind of been overlooked in the past cycles, but it's nice to see that there's more protocols like tackle that are building real world products that you know have use cases that can generate real value.
On top of that as well, a big thing that we've been seeing with file marketplaces like Filecoin is you're kind of paying in the price of the token, which makes it really, really variable what you're
actually going to pay at the end of the day. So if I wanted to store one terabyte of data, I could be spending like four file coin, for example, I don't know what the price is. But you know, in two months, because that's a speculative token, you could be, you know,
using that for Filecoin to store two terabytes if you waited a little while because the price of the Filecoin token is fluctuating and the storage providers themselves are asking for different amounts of Filecoin in exchange for storing your files. What we do instead is we take
$8 a month US for a terabyte. So if you want two terabytes, that's $16 a month. And currently we're using an Oracle system in the future that's flipping to a liquidity pool to get an accurate on-chain price. But essentially
what that lets us do is through the protocol, one jackal token might pay for X amount of storage today, but X amount of storage tomorrow. But at the end of the day, if you buy your jackal tokens to pay for that storage, when you want to pay for that storage, you will always be spending the
same amount of real world money rather than a speculative asset like Jackal. In the future we will also be taking like Adam Tokens as well as USDC which lets us not only have a
marketplace model, I guess, where you can kind of arbitrage your way through random tokens and then pay for storage. But on top of that, you will always know you're paying a dollar a month per terabyte instead of some random value just because that's what the tokens worth today. Yeah, it's pretty important for that. And that's gonna have
The storage writers and validators are based off block rewards. It's a multi-sided market, but all the sides of the market actually go to the protocol layer. The price of storage relative to Jack or relative to Adam or even the archway token is
and on the thing we could take in theory. That is all managed by the Dow, so you could essentially go any, you could say, "I'm going to make a proposal to increase or decrease the price of storage relative to the current economic needs of the protocol as well." So it's a little bit more resilient from the other models which are just strictly marketplaces.
I'd love to hear a little bit more from Eric and CryptoCom specifically about Archway and all the things that are going on there because I'd love to learn more. We've been kind of in the trenches here building Jackal with our heads down. So we'd love to hear a little bit more about your protocol other than what we know already about GOTS modules and stuff.
That's obviously one of, I would say, the big selling point is that we have these different, I guess, mechanisms to take the value that's being created, or I guess a crew at the layer one and actually disturbing it down to the layer two where it's being created, which is the DAP level. So, I mean, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,#
of really what we're trying to do here is just align the incentives so that there is, you know, just as much as the validator is incentivized by security, developers should be incentivized to stick around the protocol, maintain their applications. And so we're basically trying to design a model that does both.
So that's where beyond just like a split of a gas fee on which we've seen on some other protocols, we've added these, you know, other mechanisms like like taking a portion of inflation and giving that to some of the developers based on their their contract or their apps, you know, contribution to the network. And then we also have the this the fee
premium, which creates what we will think is like a market, like a more of a really a market for using contracts. You can charge a fee, a smart contract premium on top of the minimum guess necessary, and the 100% of that fee goes to the actual bet. And they can allocate that fee in any manner they'd like, whether
that's like a feed grant to make users have a seamless first use of a protocol without having to go get a network gas like arch token from a different decks. But yeah, I mean outside of just the incentives and trying to align those, I think what Eric's done with the token design is quite
interesting. I'll let him kind of speak to that, but I think looking at the inflation miles we've used in the cosmos in the past, I think there is some room for improvement. I think Eric has kind of nailed it with what he's done, especially with his counterinflationary mechanism. I'll let him speak more of that.
That's so beautiful. Thanks, man Patrick you mentioned earlier that you guys have two forms of revenue one you guys are selling this space and then two you guys are selling block space That is something that most L1's have not truly acknowledged a little optimized for and we've in Web 3 we've really gotten away from sales like we abstract
the way business in general, which is why I mock a lot of what's currently going on. You guys have an actual product and you sell that, that's great. L ones are not properly selling their block space. Ethereum is the only one that does with EIP 1559 and you'll see when we drop our eGone paper that's a very heavy influence.
We are the first time based blockchain in the Cosmos ecosystem. So in addition to all the really cool devs that is well, well beyond in every category, anyone else who's trying to like front run us and do
types of like dev rebates and stuff. We are really leading the pack in quite a few ways. It's going to flow nicely. But yeah, having lower inflation, countering it with deflation, and then I tease on Twitter a while ago, well, we will over time set up smart targets. So, well,
A lot of people get really precise with tokenomics pre-launch. It's really employed to kind of get E-Felse appeal. And I'm much more a fan of leaving what is arbitrary, arbitrary, and focusing on what the goal is, but with counterinflationary models and parameters that can be customizable for any targets.
things like a smart target of say like 2.5% net inflation and then based on the utility it can adjust prices of gas or the entire price of gas formula it can adjust the actual static inflation and whatnot to try to reach a set net inflation in the way that the Fed can only dream of. So there's a lot that we can
can do from the new parameters that set up from the new way the entire blockchain set up. No more like, oh, go to governance and change how many expected blocks we have in a year, because that's going to change inflation. No, it's all built in, all the timings built in, the Dow controls everything, but it will be turning over a lot of cool new leaves.
No, that is really cool. It's kind of ironic to think that you can build anything perfect there at time too and have an ability to have flexibility in your economic model and also pull your levers on the fly relative to how it's built, also relative to government. It's really cool. I think we're a visual animal now.
because multi-sided markets are complicated right and pretty much every L1 blockchain is a multi-sided market where you have production capital from validators, our case is storage providers and validators, teaming capital from devs and you guys have that part of the flywheel pretty much down
pack where you have incentive for more human capital to come in and then you have utility going to the end users and end users building a community. It's pretty fascinating how these things work and it's great that you guys are kind of thought leaders in that space on how to really focus on the economics of the protocol
and really enticed developers to come build. It's super important. We're excited to build some of our own things on our space, including our little outposts and things on those lines. You guys have a lot of great ideas. I'm excited to see what you build. But yeah, you're spot on. We're seeing as people start to
better understand to economics as people are starting to be like, oh, maybe Max Scops actually a bad thing. And it's not the realizations that happen nearly as fast as I would hope, but it gives me more time to build stuff, I guess. But it's most important that we build things that are flexible because migrations are really
difficult. So it's always a lot easier to start something new and not reward past people than it is to just migrate. Oh, now we have more information. It's like migrate. And if you set something up in the beginning, that works good enough there, but is set to thrive where migrations are
necessary, but gradual changes are. We have predefined dependencies and all the different parameters that have been placed and gets a guy by bus or something. They know when to change different parameters under what situations and what not based on pricing and flow, based on volume.
It's easy to change to get to where it should be because no solution should be permanent. You never know what the future is going to have in store and it should constantly be changing. And it needs to be built to be set up that way.
I mean 100% right 100% no it's really exciting to hear what you guys are building and I'm not worth it to be all-editing as jacolads and excited to have cool integrations which are good protocols as well because it's the optune thesis right it's confluence and integration
and that's kind of how we build awesome, awesome ecosystems in general. For us to have, just get 1% better day over day, have really cool applications come online like Joggle, like Archway, Cash for example, and just really have use cases. No, I'm super excited.
100%. So when can we get a full Google suite of jackal products?
So this morning we did our upgrade so we upgraded the blockchain to have the file tree module and a storage module and Notification module or comodule for all things that we need to stress to start to provide the the dashboard Step two, and this is kind of where we are right now
We're online all of our stored providers that participated on our testnet. So now it's getting places for data to be stored that's encrypted. And then after that, when everything's up and stable, then the dashboard launches. So that we're looking hopefully within the next two days unless something absolutely
and seeing how it does with blockchain technology. But it's looking pretty good so far. We're really excited to be offering this product, hopefully within the next two days. Awesome. And I guess just, so we've talked about this quite a bit in the sense that you guys have real world
But have you guys had any success pitching this to you know traditional kind of Web 2 type businesses? Are they taking to this idea? Do they understand it? Just interested to kind of hear your guys's overall feedback and if you were able to Find any partnerships about side of the Web 3 space
Yeah. So this is something I'd be working on a ton on screw this testnet period to try to kick the tires and see what's possible with integrations with different companies. We've spoken with you know, Sepality's law firms airports. Oh god, it's a crazy thing to try to figure out where it's the best use case for a product like this in the web too world.
Obviously, they hold all the risk when they want to integrate next-gen technology. And we have to be conscious of that. But conversations have been going really well. And for use cases in the early days, it's probably going to be stuff that is open data or things that it just needs to be stored
somewhere. But as we continue to gain traction, as we continue to make sure that the protocol is secure and safe and we have a track record associated with that, I could see us starting to have use cases which are more private for peer-to-peer transfer of information with really high privacy and security postures and all that good stuff.
So I can't really speak on exactly who we've been talking to because it's really fast and fresh. But you should just keep your eye out for what's coming in the next few months because that's kind of where our focus is. For a protocol like this, you need unique amount of terabytes on the network.
And users are awesome users have are great to come and use a draw box like product and that's kind of the MVP that we've created. But most users only have like one to two terabytes of storage available and this is beautiful for them to increase their cybersecurity and digital privacy posture. But if you're going
for a protocol like this, you kind of have to take a model similar to a file, quinter, and AR, or we even have to go find organizations and institutions that have really large data sets, whether that's Internet Archive or things like those lines of Wikipedia, for example, and really large data sets that throw on the chain.
That's amazing because yeah it seems like with most products it's really hard to convince a Web2 company that your product is one superior but actually can function as they intend for the cost. I think some people might see how much
they're saving and think they must be missing something. But that's kind of the beauty of decentralization is you can kind of strip out a lot of the overhead that isn't necessary that's going into some of these other products. Yeah, you're one of them. It's a crack and that might actually be playing against this a little bit.
which is a little bit ironic, but it should be more expensive because it's more secure. And that's fair. But we've also seen a lot of people coming to us and saying they want to build a white labeling solution on Jockel where they give, they understand the Web 3 experience, they want to provide a dashboard to a Web 2 company, for example.
That's kind of more used to using them some powder squards and having a little bit of morph and into a dash bar but they don't have to use coin base to get Adam and transfer Adam to osmosis and swap Adam for jackele on osmosis than transfer that to jackele then pay for storage and jackele and for us
the on board, the traditional markets, you have to create a better user experience and that's not just for us, that's everyone across the board in month three where you're trying to create a better and better onboarding experience for people who don't get it. So what we're looking at and there's a lot of people that are interested in doing this where they wait label Jackville. So
their end users can get the increase in security policy, privacy policy, reducing attack factors like using their passers-by phone numbers and they can manage that from a multi-signature hardware wallet. And then they can provide a secure backup for traditional enterprises where they just send the data over
They'll kind of abide by the laws in the specific geographical region as the white labeler of the product and then they stored on Jacko. So there's all kinds of different use cases and there's all kinds of different ways that we can onboard these larger providers into the space. And luckily since Jacko's only eight don't
$1.00 a month for Terabyte. These white labelers also have the ability to mark it up quite a bit all the way up to $28 a month for Terabyte and even more because we don't have egress charges or any fees like that. So we're excited to see all the businesses that can be built around a product like this, whether it's data marketplaces or
professional service deliverables or you can just predict your backups and archives of data. There's all kinds of different things that people can build and we're excited to kind of see where that takes us. But from the protocol in general when you look at us, okay, what is
What's better about Jackal than a Google Drive or an Amazon? It really comes down to
less attack actors, more resilience. You have the ability for you to have a verifiability of the data, data integrity, uptime, all those good things where you can, all the reasons why the financial
is that on crypto rails is better. We also believe that the data transfer and the ability for you to have data storage on crypto rails is kind of very similar ideologies that come together for a product like this. Yeah, I mean,
Everyone's talking about decentralizing finance, but we need decentralized data at least as much and we don't have nearly as many players in that game. You really skipped over egress charges. Can you walk through what exactly those are and why it's beneficial not have them?
Yeah, 100%. So, data egress charges is when you have like an S3 environment in your company where you pay for how much for the parking space for your data. First of all, I was usually like $28 or $26 a month for terabyte. And then after that, you also have to pay every time you upload or down.
load data as well. And these are referred to as egress charges where sometimes 50% of the budget of the data storage is actually this concept of uploading and downloading data. And we wrote a blog on this actually and it's on the Djok a protocol website and you'll get a read and there's some pretty interesting horse
stories associated with this were NASA had an issue with AWS where they didn't budget for 50% other budget to be eaten by just purely by egress, which is it's not the best, but what we're since we have everything on chain and data is not actually technically being transferred. It's just the permissions that
The set data is just being managed by the protocol and the blockchain itself. This gives us the ability to have very, very efficient transfer of information where you're not actually moving the data you're just changing who has access to set data and that can also be revoked at any time. So you can have really granular permissions and you can control
who has access to what information at what time, which is great for all kinds of use cases, whether it's China custody for court use or whether it's just you managing who has access to what information inside of an organization or if you just have you're an individual and you have the best of me and you've ever seen and you just want to maintain a really awesome community posture around that.
100% no that's that's fascinating after talking to the other day I looked more into egress charges on like that alone is a huge killer use case but you guys are really offering a better
project for way less money. That alone is really cool. I'm really excited to see just a centralization win and start putting on the people out of business.
But no, they have went over you guys for the last year. But I know you guys a little bit more about your guys' backstory than a lot of our listeners here. Why don't you walk through to them why you decided to pursue this and what use case you were initially trying to self-work?
Yeah, well 100% and then I think after that we should talk about data downloads and some pretty interesting cases on the actual week protocol by using tech like this. But our box storage, so myself and Maris then we used to work for a intelligence
company where we would be doing digital forensics and investigations for law firms, corporations, governments, all that good stuff. What we wanted to do is this is something called Keaksake, which was an e-discovery tool
for court use. What is e-discovery? E-discovery is when you have digital evidence, it's how you manage the capture of that evidence and who has access to it in a clean forensic environment all the way to the court.
Right now there's kind of a crisis associated with that where evidence can be tampered with and there's not really good controls over digital evidence and people are taking screenshots and bringing them to court and thinking that's forensically sound and all that stuff.
What we wanted to do is we were like, okay, what is the best technology for managing who has access to what at what time and we're like it's blockchain. You can really granularly see who has access to what
but things whether that's tokens, whether that's NFTs or an RKs, whether that's files. So we built KeepSake and then we realized we can't really store the evidence in a Google Cloud or an Azure environment.
Surely because the fact that just by nature, third party has access to that data and you don't really maintain control over that data once you kind of give it to a third party. So we're like, okay, is it possible to have a scalable cloud environment while still maintaining ownership of your data, plus having a clean forensic
with a really high security and privacy posture. So that's kind of what became Jackal. And from there, we started to realize that this kind of transcends the use case of just digital evidence for court. And it's actually a really more ethical way for people to have data
storage while still maintaining complete ownership just like you own your NFTs and crypto you can also own your files and we think that's an important primitive in its own right. So that's kind of why we built Jockel and why we took this security posture position which is not really something that you've seen so far with
When you store on file coin there is no privacy.
we wanted something that was faster, more secure, and have full privacy. And that's kind of how we got to this point. One year later, we're watching, we're upgrading our blockchain today, and just trying to see if we can just produce the best product possible.
Yeah, you had to build up the infrastructure for use case and that same infrastructure that unlocks a ton of use cases. So I'm excited to see not only that come to fruition, but also whatever, whatever else builds on Jackal and speaking of tell me about some data that was man. Yeah, so this is a pretty uh,
This is a pretty interesting use case. So data dials is a concept that is interesting where right now in the age of AI data sets and what I mean by data sets, it's information that is
really, really valuable to whether it's AI or whether it's to companies. So let's take a use case. So myself, Marston and Eric and CryptoCAM, we spin up a data doubt and say, "We're gonna go around and we're gonna capture every single song
ever written, download it, and then store it into our data set. Someone might find that data set valuable, whether it's an AI company that wants to train its AI against every song ever created, or whether it's, let's say like a
I want to say almost like a record label that says that we want to access this data set to see which songs melody provides the most value or tempo provides the most value when we go to radio or something like that. So what we can do is we can take that data as this now. We can create a multi-signature wallet.
that governs who has access to that information, which is protected through a paywall from your privacy posture on Jackal. So on our way we have this data dial, we carry it on this data, we store it on Jackal, and then we actually guard it with a paywall to say, "Okay, if you want this data come and pay us
X amount of arch tokens or X amount of add-on or X amount of jackal and then we will give you access and you can fire away. So I think this is a really interesting new stage that data is more expensive than gold. That's why hacks happen all the time. That's why all these different things happen. That's why I
of marketplaces like Ocean Protocol are really important. But for everything to be on chain and you to create an organization completely permissionlessly in the decentralized environment and come together and create a full-on business around just curating and selling data sets, some lots and other business model for the Cosmos. And we're excited to offer that to the community.
That's so sick good. That's absolutely fantastic.
Yeah, it's a very time time. It's a I heard a quote the other day is the internet is a new America is a new frontier. So we're excited to see all the different companies that spring up in the ecosystem and just can provide value and we think that's one of the cool ways that you can.
So we're just at 40 past. Should we start asking questions, taking questions from the audience? Yeah, I'm gonna understand. Awesome. So if anyone would like to request to speak, go for it.
Until then Patrick, you have any specific data, Dows and Mind?
There's a few. I just kind of want to learn a little bit more about what data is valuable and what data is easily accessible. So imagine a situation where you can go around Web3 and collect every NFT, JPEG, just right click Save every
to ever throw that in the other data set and have that. I think people would pay to have access to that and train things against it. I think it would be really interesting. Other things, some a little bit harder would be, I want to run around and I want to figure out the price of SaaS companies.
How much does it cost to use Salesforce versus how much does it cost to use HubSpot and created that a set around something like that and you can govern access to that for businesses that want to make informed decisions on pricing, for example. There's all kinds of different use cases, but I'm somebody just came up to speak to let you go.
Ruben, you're on. So I have a million questions. Uh, men half of them are like, well, the ocean type questions, but I'll start with a simple one. Um, what about mastodon or to get a little spice here? Uh, pirate bay. Have you, have you thought about like the data heavy intensive environments?
where is a large group of people who sort of care about decentralization care about sovereignty have dated heavy applications, but are still using kind of piecemeal infrastructure that you might be able to sort of productize? Yeah, 100%. The beauty of our job.
So that's the downside because when you encrypt a file it bloats a little bit. But the speeds are pretty damn close to what you're seeing. I'm excited, I'd love for you to try it out. The dashboard as soon as it launches within the next few days, just try out speeds. But I was excited that 100% is definitely definitely a great use case for something like that.
beautiful thing about Jackal for a resiliency factor, not condoning any pirating of anything, but in theory, if you wanted to store let's say a piece of software on Jackal and how it happens is you
And then you post it to the system. When you post it to the system, it actually gets split into three files and stored on three different machines that are in our distributed peer-to-peer network of storage providers. In the event that one of those storage providers goes down or in the event that for whatever
reason that file has to come offline of that storage provider, actually the contract breaks and then another storage provider steps in and copies it from the other two. So it's kind of like playing Vachemol from a resiliency side of things unless you are doing something completely vulgar and then none of the storage providers want to store your file.
and you're publicly sharing what that file is, then they can say, "Okay, I don't want that CID on my system," but unless you share what that CID, unless you kind of turn your infrastructure off and then post-host it publicly, and everyone knows what that file is and they don't want to store it, then that's up to the storage providers.
That's awesome. Yeah, I think that the there's a push pull between the benefits of aggregate transparency and personal privacy, right? So I think crossing that casings always been really hard. Yeah, it's interesting for sure, but at the end of the day, it's up to the end user and what they want for
their operational security and privacy posture to be. If you purposely make your file public and everyone knows what the file is, then you kind of lost that whole security side of things. If you want to really maintain a high security posture around whatever you're storing, whether that's your private keys or whether that's personal information.
Awesome. Thanks for coming up. Do we have any more questions? I mean, I can fill the space with questions. Okay, so hypothetical. I've been looking into
What appear to peer up work might look like in this environment, right? After you sort of get through the rigs of various countries and labor laws and securities laws and all the rest of it. And one of the challenges with doing something like that is figuring out what verifiable
proofs look like interpretation or licenses. Dave says that he's a plumber. He says that he's not just a plumber, but a master plumber, which for example in Australia. I'm in California, but I came living in Australia for a little while. They have this organization called the Master Plumber Association where he used to pay a fee.
You prove that you can plumb and great now you're a plumber. You have a master plumber's association, right? So in theory, I could use, I could say, hey, I'm Dave the plumber. I am a plumber. I'm a master plumber. And I'm going to make that at a station and tie that to my DID.
But you don't have to trust me because this organization over there, the master plumbers DID, they have confirmed that I am. Or they have denied that I am. Maybe use that sort of trust graph type of infrastructure. It occurred to me that to the extent that you can make all this stuff digital, it might allow for
things like code academy or top-tile or hacker rank or all those sort of automated systems where you go up and you jump through some hoops and if you get a if you jump through the hoops you get a cookie and go well yeah well you know they've got a CS degree and we can we can prove that because they jump through some hoops that are only a person that can do the
things can jump through, etc. In theory, could I use something like Archway to create a DAP that was stored on jackals for verse that I could then allow create an API for third parties that allows not
not only Dave using the app to declare that he's a developer, but through the API, the third party's to verify that, yeah, in fact, Dave is a master plumber. And you sort of jackal is the distributed storage. Our choice is the sort of underlying machinery.
still having sort of zepier adjacent type interoperability with the existing sort of ritual active infrastructure if that makes sense. I can ask from our side in theory 100%. It depends on what you want to store in jacquil for something like if it's just like
The Plumber Association just verifying that this person does have that credential and It depends whether or not you actually want to share the credential with the user if you want to share the credential directly with the user where they can go and look at it Then you'd probably need jackele but if you just want to show the proof that the Plumber's Association has approved
You could probably do that just purely with an ID platform or a name service platform where you have something like that, but Kind of take that a little bit a step further if you have like a fiber like marketplace I'm not as familiar with the we work so you're gonna have to forget me on that but What you could do is you could fear you create a
professional services marketplace on archway where I'm a web designer and I want to design a website and then I use the paywall of the the the file stored on jackal and have that delivered once the work is done the only hard part
is how do you manage refunds and stuff like that. So it would probably have to be upvoted and downvoted based on a star system maybe. Make sure that all that would work unless you want to have a down manage kind of complaint that this person has to deliver.
The least worse way I could think of doing it is like creating a product of all the transactions and then just like leaving like this open space for Okay, how are we gonna prove stuff right like Five stars might work for Uber drivers probably not gonna work for New York surgeons, right? Yeah, it's gonna be a bit of nightmare
but like, you know, open-grab inputs, yeah. >> The database insurance will be coming into the scene as well. That can help with this kind of thing. >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's a big deal. If you can bring insurance to zero-sum asset
classes, and more parity, it sounds like a challenge. That is pretty crazy. That is pretty crazy for the insurance. I've heard really cool insurance protocols as well in the space where you can, if you have an Oracle for weather data, for example, you can give things that are zero sum like
crop insurance basically or tornado insurance. The tornado touches down within a square kilometer of your building and you get paid out automatically. It's a reasonably cool thing from the Ethereum space but nothing in cause most yet. Do they offer a tornado cash insurance? No, I don't think that works unfortunately. You have to take that up with the SEC.
Okay, okay, so this is interesting. So sometimes you'll find a transaction among parties where some of the data is there's like an aggregate benefit in having that on chain, right? So like, did the person turn up in Mogulon or did they not Mogulon?
That's an important thing that you want to have in a distributed environment. We've tried to create like a history of record for this lawnmower who may be trying to sell their lawnmowering services on the interwebs. However, the specific geographic location of that lawn being mowed, you may not want that in a public environment.
So could I sort of isolate the elements of a particular transaction, use that on the Jackals for infrastructure while sort of keeping, I want to sort of like isolate the variables. So here's a set that we want public, here's a set that we want private. Is there a repo that I can creep around on to see?
the possibilities are around there. Yeah, 100%. We're completely open source. You could either go to our discord or I can see if I can DM it to you directly right now. But from Jockel's perspective, the instance that you would want to use Jockel
is if the file is too big to fit on chain or if you want programmable privacy around the data itself. So if you want the ability to share data where it's only two users in the entire world with the private key to an access it, that's the use case there or if a file is too big. That is just
the gas fees would be so ridiculously expensive it doesn't make sense to store it on chain but you still want like a permissionless environment and decentralized environment to store that file that can interact with on chain data or smart contracts or all that could stuff if that makes sense. So basically like if I'm Disney
And I'm trying to re-implement, you know, copyright protection, or if I'm trying to start a military coup, yeah? Yeah, exactly. Sweet. Yeah, since I can, I'll DM a tea right now here. Here's a repo.
Just came from the job account. Do you know geopolitical information? Not geopolitical advice. Well, believe or not, there's quite an interest for a use case like this from the military industrial complex for peer-to-peer transfer information. Because right now, and you want security,
transfer data, you actually put a server on a plane. And that's not really secure because you can't trust the middleware between the two parties, if that makes sense, or the service providers. So the cool thing about Jockel is the data doesn't actually move, but the permissions are managed by blockchain secured by consensus of who has access to what data in
that can be remote. So it's beautiful in that sense. We have peer-to-peer transfer of information where permissions just change on-chain and another part of the key is access. You guys are solving a real problem there. One of the challenges that I'm not working on this anymore, but
about six months I was working on a protocol using procedurally generated multi-phasic multi-band audio stagonography which is a fancy way of saying what a marks to take a piece of audio and put a fancy signature on it on the client side so that artists for example could say hey here's my song
And you know, it's my song because it's got this fancy signature that machines can hear but humans can't hear but the machines can't hear it well enough to be able to figure out how to remove it Which is really important because you want to like by you know the analog loop or somebody puts a microphone up to a speaker It's a problem right because you lose any you lose
anything that can't be transferred over the physical vibrations of the air. But did you get the permissions and access controls down to the micro level so you can secure the provenance? That's a big deal. I can see a lot of government departments
using this to combat deepfakes where they can say, "Hey, look, this is insert political figure saying these things." And we don't want to release that into the wild necessarily, but we do want the history of record of it happening at this place, at this time, in this, you know, in this environment that's accessible
And that way if somebody creates a deepfake, you know, of a modification of that, the deepfake won't have the signature or won't have the provenance pass, but the original sort of authentic source well. Do you know what I'm saying? And the current infrastructure doesn't deal with that. Yeah, so each file will store it on jargon.
has its own content identifier. So we indexed by content not by location. So if you upload the same file to the protocol multiple times, it would have the same content identifier. But if you, it's still an encrypted, you don't really know what it is or who has access to it or any of those.
things, but it still has the same CID, so the chain knows what files what. In the event that you wanted to change the file or fake the file, what would happen is as soon as you change a single parameter or single pixel in that file, it actually comes up with a new CID. And all from permission standpoint,
the signatures. Yeah, yeah, so it's called the file tree module where each user kind of has this ability. It's that's three buckets storage basically. So you have these files and you can have managed permissions of each file.
So you can have an entire file tree where you can have a multisaber over the root folder and you can actually control who has access to what files within that root folder. And then if you go down the tree, each file that is now added to a new folder down the tree, enhance the permissions of
the previous file unless you want to change them manually, which we're cost a little bit of gas. That's awesome. Broughter, boil the ocean type question, unless other folks want to come up and don't go ahead. Yeah, I was just going to say we're just about at that
time that I'm going to go and end the Twitter spaces. So, Marston Patrick, thank you so much for joining Max, Eric as well. And Rubin, you asked fantastic questions, so thank you so much for coming up and volunteer your time. Yeah, Rubin, just come to our discord if you want to talk to us.
Yeah, appreciate you coming up and I'm sharing those thoughts that those are.
was really interesting things I wasn't fully aware of either so I'll put more into that watermarking of music that's really cool yeah absolutely and jackal congress on the big day you guys awesome yeah thanks for asking thanks for having more of us thanks everyone