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🚨 ARE COMMUNITY NOTES FAIR? Trump Camp Believes They’re Being Targeted
Recorded: June 5, 2023 Duration: 2:39:55Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion primarily revolves around the concept of community notes on Twitter, highlighting concerns about potential manipulation and bias in the system. Participants debate the effectiveness of community notes as a tool for fact-checking and providing context, with some arguing for its abolition due to its susceptibility to being weaponized by specific groups. Others suggest improvements for transparency and accountability, while acknowledging the challenges of balancing free speech with the need to combat misinformation. The conversation also touches on the broader implications of decentralization and the role of social media platforms in moderating content.
Full Transcription
No, I feel everyone's shadow band.
I was just checking Kalisi, she's shadow band,
and now Nick seems to be shadowbound.
I can't find him when I look for him.
Sully, I've sent you an invite.
Let's get those invites out.
Sully, can you expect the invite?
Hey, bro.
Hey, there we go.
Hey, guys.
Max, I never knew you're a trouble.
First, hold on.
Can you hear me, guys?
Can anyone hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you fine.
Cool.
I never knew Max is a troublemaker.
I've seen some shit around Twitter.
You got a nice group of haters.
Yeah, did you know that about Max?
Oh yeah, I mean, hey, but Max does, look, you know, no matter, you can like Trump, you can like DeSantis, but what I like about Max is he attacks this Rebecca Jones chick, unemployed criminal, as he says.
Oh, she's so weird.
Yeah, I know who you're talking about.
She's so, you know how we're always very nice to people
when they come on and stuff like this?
She, I don't know why she immediately leaked my number.
Like we had no issues, nothing at all.
She just decided, I don't know if you guys saw it.
She tweeted out my number.
I'm like, what's the point.
I don't know what we did.
We were just chatting, everything's fine,
and then decided to leak it.
Like, people think that's a bad thing.
It's going to harm me.
Yeah.
That's her, Mario, that's her thing.
That's just what she does.
Oh, she's been doing that kind of years.
Oh, really?
Just for the audience members, I don't know who Rebecca Jones is.
She is the...
Hell, she's been going after DeSantis for years now,
and then, what was it, a few months ago, Max,
where she had come out and said that her son was kidnapped by Ron DeSantis.
By Ron DeSantis?
It turns out that actually...
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Turns out what actually happened was her son threatened to shoot up the school multiple times,
that it's to multiple people, and then the son got arrested, not by DeSantis, but by the local sheriff's office.
Yeah, there were a few days.
There were like two days where she was just getting, she got like, that was her biggest tweet in years.
She got like 30 something thousand retweets.
And it was like, oh my God, Ron DeSantis kidnapped a child.
Turns out, yeah, he threatened to shoot at the school.
Did he lies about this kind of hell?
I mean, it's DeSantis.
Like the governor's not going to sue for defamation.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, but she did get community noted on that topic.
Yeah, which was quite an accomplishment.
Really surprising.
Hold on that.
It was quite an accomplishment that she got community noted because she has blocked so many people that I was surprised that it was able to get through.
But very grateful that it did.
Thank you, community.
That was, um, you know, if you go ahead, bro.
If you ever want to read something interesting, and this actually applies to a lot of people, guys.
So here's a little bit of a tip for the audience here.
If you ever want to read the most interesting replies on a big thread, check the hidden replies section.
Yeah.
Because her hidden replies are just, I mean, people making really good points attacking her.
And I don't know.
That reminds you, wasn't there a lady, a girl, a lady, not girl, a lady who, she's a podcast,
I forgot her name, and she, she claimed that Joe Biden raped her.
And then she and her and the Krasenstein's had a lot of back and forth against each other.
Do you know what I'm referring to?
I forgot her name.
And now she's in.
Yes, isn't she in Russia?
Yeah, she defected to Russia a week ago.
This is mental.
Don't get me started on her
I thought that was an interesting thing
She was already
She was already
Being accused of being a Russian ass
Yeah I remember the question Stein said that
And I'm like okay guys like
Let's just let's just stop these little
games and then and then um well she didn't write medium posts in 2019 so a year or two before
she came out with her allegation that she had apparently suppressed for decades and only recovered
in march of 2020 but she didn't write these bizarre posts where she was talking about how all the
women in the world love to look at Putin with a shirt off I mean she was getting she had very weirdly
That's fine. You got Putin fans everywhere. I think that makes you a Russian asset.
But let's...
No, no, she's not an asset, but she had...
Let's get to the topic. Jenna, it's a pleasure to see you again. It's been a while. How are you?
Good. Thanks so much for having me.
I want to apologize for the shenanigans that Suleiman was doing under Twitter.
I don't know what you guys went back and forth.
But he does this sometimes.
He always causes me issues.
The best thing to do is ignore him.
And if he continues, just block him.
What you talking about?
I was nice to Jenner.
I didn't even reply.
I let her have the last word because I thought Mario's going to cry.
Okay, I'm glad.
What was the discussion about Sully?
Maybe you could use that as an intro for the topic.
I let Jenna go because, you know, my introduction is going to be biased.
And I will do it.
Just to give a bit of balance, I'll let Jenna go first.
No, that's okay.
And, you know, I appreciate the back and forth.
What I...
and this actually ties right into the whole community notes conversation,
is that when things kind of devolve and then you get into,
you know,
some of the more personal attacks back and forth or,
or, you know,
things, I don't actually think that's ever helpful to any discussion.
And so, you know,
overall,
what I will say about my,
my interaction and our conversation about the community notes is that
my position on community notes and what I had initially suggested,
was that community notes aren't just to call out something that is factually false, but also,
so there's kind of a both and, community notes can also provide more context. And what I saw on
some of the community notes on some of the team Trump tweets as well as Stephen Chang and, you know,
some others is that they were just,
providing more context like to say okay this is the time that this photo was taken for example so
in the context of the tweet and we've all seen this in different photos right i mean there's
literally there's literally been hollywood movies about this where you see an event or a photo or
you know something from just one perspective and you're not seeing the fuller context and so um so then where um
As Suleiman was saying, you know, well, it has to be the standard of unequivocably false in order to get a community note.
I don't actually think that that's the standard.
I don't think that Elon Musk has ever proffered community notes as a standard of falsity-like.
I would, for example, in the context of litigation, something like defamation, where it has to be
provably false, not an opinion, or more context. The value to me of community notes and where I think
our interaction got a little bit sideways where, you know, he then accused me of shifting my position,
which isn't sure if you look at my tweet, it says, you know, you call out, don't either don't lie or
don't put out things that are falsely framed, which that can be perspective.
What I think the value of community notes is, overall, especially when dealing with this new kind of Trump war room style of trying to do these sort of gotcha moments of the DeSantis campaign that I think are very disingenuous, they're being falsely framed.
where the community notes can add more context and can say here is, or even what they did to Vivek Ramoswami, which is saying, okay, he said that DeSantis signed a hate speech bill.
Well, the more context was look at this, look at the actual bill.
Here is the bill.
I don't think that that was saying that what Vivek said,
suggested in his tweet was factually false as much as I interpreted it to be he's suggesting
as an opinion and he's characterizing it as hate speech, which isn't how I read the bill.
And so community notes was very valuable to point that out and to disagree with his characterization.
And so for people who are saying that community notes is only valuable...
when it's a provably factually false,
unequivocably false statement,
I think is actually going against the value of community notes
to provide more context.
I mean,
and listen,
you know,
without going into all this,
I've been community noted when,
and I disagreed fully with the community note that was regarding,
the very, you know, open public censure that I got in the state of Colorado.
And when I pushed back on some of the headlines that were suggesting that I agreed that,
you know, it was an intentionally false statement and I was lying, well, that's not true.
And community notes then, of course, went and grabbed all of the mainstream media headlines.
It was like, oh, that's not true of what Jenna was saying.
Yeah.
Fine, whatever. I don't care that I got community noted. The point is that people can add more context. And what I actually found helpful about that community note on my own tweet that I disagreed with was that people actually linked to the source itself instead of all of the mainstream media's interpretation of all of this stuff. So I find community notes helpful even when I disagree with the
context that they provide.
So overall, that's my commentary on community emails.
Before you jump in, Nick, just two things.
First, guys, stop pinning tweets that are community noted
because it just completely dominates my screen,
and I can't scroll up or down anymore.
It starts taking me ages scroll up and down.
So stop pinning tweets with community notes.
Also, it's ironic someone sent me, Rob, who's in the audience,
he sent me a screenshot.
There's their community, I'll tweet about it in a bit,
their community noting.
our existing Twitter space
about community notes.
That's the dissentist people.
That's the dissent.
Guys,
we let you on the stage.
Don't be community notes.
I don't.
I ain't gonna attack your girl, Jenna.
I ain't gonna attack your girl, Jenna. I ain't gonna attack your girl.
But why is he being politicized, man.
I'd love a bit of an overview. Why are you being putting?
Cause over.
So basically, for me, I won't get, my own position is I'm totally against community notes in total.
Oh my God, this is another stupid position you have, isn't it?
It's not a stupid position, actually a logical position.
I'm going to block you in just a minute, Salami.
I'm going to block you since you're that crazy of an opinion.
This is so much.
It's not.
So contrary.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no.
So there's actually reasons for it.
And there's a variety of reasons for it.
So first of all, it is that you essentially,
it can be used,
it can be taken over and appropriated.
And it does seem like,
and obviously we're going to get into this,
it does seem like,
And, oh yeah, okay, so sorry, the CEO Rumble might turn up as well.
But basically, it does seem like it has been appropriated by some, by,
it can be appropriate by one political ideology,
and it does seem like it may have been done by the dissenters camp.
And so when you've got something like community notes that can be controlled by one political ideology,
and then they're able to community note their opponents,
whoever they may be, people when they say community notes,
automatically assume that the person's line.
That's the first problem.
Okay.
The second problem is when information isn't in the mainstream media,
you are basically attacking independent journalists.
So, for example, Dr. Darnish and Mario basically released,
as a team, released a story which the mainstream media didn't have,
and it got community noted.
Now, Mario didn't care, but let's say he was a reputable independent journalist.
People would assume he's reporting...
People, no, you know what I mean?
Like, you, what?
People will assume that this guy can't be trusted.
Michael Tracy's on stage, he's been community noted,
he's an independent journalist.
This impact-
Yeah, but so what's about, okay,
okay, Suli, Suli, okay, it's very easy to criticize community notes.
Before going on the, Michael, no, not yet, bro,
because I know what happens when you start addressing something.
Give us a few minutes, please.
And I'll give you the mic, bro.
I'm community noting you right now.
Sully, Sully, oh, no, Michael.
Sully, you always tend to take these extreme positions.
What do you say?
She's saying that she not only wants a community note based on fact, but even opinion.
So now community notes is that it's basically people debating with you in opinion and you're not able to come up.
So, okay, so we fight censorship all the time.
So what do you do to fight misinformation and disinformation?
What do you do to fight misinformation and disinformation?
Well, okay, and to respond to that, though, this I think is the point of the community note
is that people who have really high profile accounts that are putting out their opinion
if it says, you know, people added more context they thought would be helpful.
Now, if people assume that if you get community noted, then now you've been proven a liar
or you made a factually false statement, well, then, you know, that's just their stupidity of looking at
and believing community notes like they believe fact checkers, right? Like we all saw in old Twitter
when somebody was fact checked, it almost actually verified even more the original person's tweet
because they thought fact checking was so stupid. And what I see the difference with community
notes is that it's a way for people who wouldn't get as high profile of a
commentary on someone like the Vak Ramoswamy or the Trump campaign or, you know, if there is one
against the governor of understanding, like, fine. I think it's actually helpful because it's more
speech and it gives people more context and more information. And if it's the community has a
different opinion and they're saying, hey, this is more context. I think is helpful. People are
still free to think for themselves. And I am so for...
everybody getting more speech, even if people don't like it.
And if you're crying over being community noted,
then maybe you shouldn't be speaking in a public forum to begin with.
Yeah, but my question,
let's see what,
silly,
but what is your solution?
I don't get it.
I don't get it.
What is your fucking solution?
Like,
you don't,
you're against censorship,
great respect.
Your people love you
because you're trying to become president
or something.
So then community knows is a solution.
Someone comes up with a solution
and saying there's a problem with the solution.
Instead of trying to find ways,
fix the solution,
like, no,
no, I'm against the solution.
So what is your,
your solution genius?
Yeah,
I've explained it.
so for me,
it's very simple.
There is no community note.
You essentially,
you let Twitter be a,
town hall as per what most claimed,
although he is a Descanter's boy
so we can see what's happening.
But essentially,
you basically make sure that,
let's say you write something,
you wrote something,
you had a much bigger profile than me.
I didn't go on like a community know
and respond to you with that when you were only able to retire
I wrote a thread against you,
smash you,
I must...
What is your solution?
Nothing at all to point out,
nothing at all to point.
So nothing to point out
misinformation and disinformation
in a platform where...
If you believe something
is misinformation and disinformation,
you have a right to reply,
you have a right to counter that person.
But how would you...
But how would you expect,
how would you expect the average Joe
to be able to verify everything?
This is a problem.
It's not...
Like, things can go...
This is where...
You're literally saying...
No, but you think about what you're saying,
you're saying...
I'm going to get the average O, and he is going to be smart enough to realize that the community note is something that is biased, maybe because it's pro DeSantis.
Hold on, you keep saying it's pro DeSantis.
I don't get it.
Trump people could use community notes as well to start doing the same thing to Descenta.
No, no, no.
Mario, one example?
Except we don't lie, so there's nothing to affect it.
I mean, no, you guys basically control community notes.
No, Desantis has been noted.
But how do you even get people?
DeSantis has been noted.
I could give an example of that quickly.
Casey DeSantis.
All we have evidence of is operatives from the DeSantis camp tagging a note group to go.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Guys, DeSantis has been community noted right when he started his campaign.
There was the whole claim.
What is the name?
Let me ask you, Chief, what's the name?
Because the chief just mentioned my important.
Chief, what is the name of that, um, uh, that thread that they always tagged to basically get someone community noted?
It's called at noted.
The funny thing is I just want to ask, it's called what, sorry?
At note needed.
Oh, no.
Jenna, you know, because I know you've tagged at no needed before.
You know, in terms of at no needed, is it, um, from your...
I mean, is there something that is passed around between the dissentist people?
It's something known between the high-level people within Descentus campaign.
I'm not a Descentus campaign person.
So I don't know what's passed in between them.
I have only seen at Note Needed tagged because I don't actually know how to start a community note myself.
And so when there's something, like, for example, I've seen a bunch of people who've commented on things like Vick's
initial tweet saying hate speech.
And a bunch of people were like, hey,
a community, you know, it's needed,
and it's needed, and it's needed.
I don't know how these things actually start and are generated.
I have...
voted on some community notes when I've seen them and when I've been invited to. And that's been
from all kinds of different people, you know, not just the DeSantis camp. It's not like, I think that
there's this perception out there that just because the Trump war room is getting a ton of community
notes, that that's somehow being controlled by DeSantis operatives. I think that the point here is that
enough people of a wide...
viewpoints are looking at this and saying,
wait a minute, Trump,
worm, that's actually not
accurate or maybe there's context that you need to know and frankly i think that's a good thing and
and as a pro first amendment which also advocate which also includes freedom of association the
whole point is that a community note can say hey the community thinks that this also would be
helpful information people are free to disagree or not so it's not this thing that this is controlled
by the disfantist campaign
So do you think it's problematic for a campaign to, in public, be tagging people a note needed that members of their own campaign are a part of, and that note citing another pack of that campaign as a source?
But the tweet was about that campaign.
The PAC's work.
The PAC is...
is involved in campaigning and it was a tweet about what was happening at that event.
And so then they, the PAC posted pictures of what had actually happened.
And then that was community noted.
But the whole point isn't that the PAC was tweeted.
The whole point is that it was a claim about the PAC's activities at the event,
and the PAC said, here's what actually happened at these tables.
It was a tweet about DeSantis's table not having much, you know, many people going to it,
and Trump's tables or area having more.
But in reality, the picture about the DeSantis table was from before the event started.
The picture about the Trump area was after.
No, no, you're missing the point.
You're missing the point.
What chief is saying is,
You guys, dissenters as people, fact, you can't call it fact check because you guys now admit it's not even based on fact, it's based on opinion.
That's what the label says.
The label says providing more context.
Like, what's the problem with providing more context?
Why are you?
No, no, I'll explain it.
Well, no, no, I'll explain it.
But it's context based on your perspective because what the tweet actually said was that that table was unmanned for a large portion of time.
So the way you can provide more context or prove that is wrong is maybe show a video throughout the whole day or the whole day to prove it's wrong.
That's just your perspective.
And what you did was weaponized community notes because you're controlling it to basically community note that post.
So what would have actually happened was if you wanted to prove it's wrong, you would have been able to do so, but you knew you couldn't.
No, no, no, that's not what happened.
That's not what happened.
Can I respond?
Can I respond to him?
Yeah, Chief, let Ben respond just because, Chief, you're on the same boat as Salaman.
Go ahead, Ben.
The claim was that this table was unmanned and people weren't going to it.
And then it showed a contrasting image of Trump area with people on it and being man.
No, he didn't.
He didn't say that.
Read the tweet.
Can you pin the...
Put it up on the Jumbotron so everyone can see it?
Let me dig into one thing.
Because you said people shouldn't put anything on the Jumbotron.
What about the fact that account just, like, didn't lie about...
Yeah, but people would lie.
Let's not, Max.
Let me respond to Suleiman.
Suleman.
Can you...
What, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Max, you said it's a lie.
Please tell me within that tweet the exact verb, the exact word...
Can you pin the tweet, silly?
Can you...
Can someone pin the tweet?
Yeah,
Suleiman.
I won't remove it this, I'm promised, but...
Hold on, okay.
So Suleiman's going to pin it,
and everyone's going to see,
this claim about this table,
about this area,
was a claim about what's been...
what was happening during the event.
But in reality,
that table was only, you know...
Hold on, that's not the right one you tweeted, is it?
Could you tweet the actual tweet, not your tweet about it?
I've got it.
So look, one second, I'm going to read it.
It's a tale, one second, a tale of two pictures.
no staffers or supporters at the dissenters
no staffers or supporters at the dissenters booth
for much of the day
now you need to prove it's a lie but demonstrating that much of the day is wrong
if he said for the entire day then you're you're automatically
the context that was added was to say that
hold on hold on are you being are you being a smart assully
or are you being serious what you're just saying now
I'm being serious.
So you genuinely don't think that this tweet is implying that the DeSantis one is empty
and the Trump one is full and misleading by putting ones at different times?
It said much of the day.
So essentially, it's saying for the whole thing.
There are pictures.
There are pictures.
Salaman.
Salaman, listen, I was supposed to get an opportunity to respond, Salaiman.
Here's the deal.
What is that tweet show?
It shows an empty table and says it was empty and unmanned for much of the day, right?
But this was a campaign event.
During the actual event, it was not unmanned or empty.
Okay?
So you're, wait, no, no, no.
You don't have to prove a negative.
The claim is that during much of the day, which everyone would...
Salaiman, let me finish, please.
Mario, can I finish it?
I don't know what to do the guy, bro.
I can't mute him, but go ahead.
Suleiman, listen.
Anyone who looks at that tweet would think much of the day, the day being the event, because the event was what the whole tweet was about, they would think it meant during this event, it was unmanned and no one was there.
Why would anybody care about whether it was unmanned before the event or after the event or in the middle of the night?
That doesn't even make sense.
Everyone took that tweet to mean during the event, during much of this event this day, this table was unmanned and people weren't coming to it.
In reality, that picture was taken from before the event had commenced.
And so readers added context, stating, and if you could actually pin that back on top so people can see it who are listening,
What actually happened was that it was unmanned before the event had begun, okay?
That was misleading to make it seem as if it was unmanned and empty
and no one was going to it during the event.
And so, and so leaders added content.
Let's see.
Okay, Ben, listen.
let me now come back on that
because your point is like
doesn't make sense whatsoever
and Ben you shouldn't get upset
when people interrupt you
especially
so they just make your point bro
no I'm gonna make my point
whilst I make that point as well
so you interrupted chief
and we allowed it
so now coming back to the specific point
what you said right
you are not understanding
if he said on the tweet
and of course he tried to show
that when it comes to DeSantis
this
they this this they
they were they it was unmanned whereas for Trump it wasn't there was a lot of people there
of course he's showing that but for you to prove that it's wrong you have to show that what
he said was wrong that it was unmanned for most of the day you were on you use community notes
you weaponized it but you were not able to show that that tweet was false so now then when you
were only able to show it but when you were only able to show that what are you talking about
When you were unable to show it was false, then you backtracked and said we're given context.
But even the context, for example, the evidence that you're given, that's not the context.
So you give evidence from a specific point in time.
You need to show evidence from a specific point in time.
This is insane.
This whole thing is what's the Bible verse?
We're squinting at in that.
and swallowing a camel.
Hold on before.
What is ridiculous?
Justin, can you actually even make an argument?
Sully, Sully, I don't know if you remember you're a co-host.
And the way you're dominating the mic doesn't give the speakers enough chance to speak at all.
Yeah, you're really coming.
Yeah, you're dominating it like crazy and it's making the space.
Put me down to speaker because I've looked into this and you've got barely all the other people.
Okay, bro.
Look, Tramster.
Can you stop for a second?
No, no, man, no.
Like, you guys, I just want to try to understand the point here because it just, unless I'm missing something.
So what you're saying, Suli, and I just want to really understand it because I'm new to this.
I'm the person observing it from the outside.
So you've got two pictures here.
Do we know for a fact that the Santa's photo was taken before the event, Sully?
That is what the contention of the dissenters camp, and I take that contention because it's not a major issue within it.
I don't know.
I need to know what facts we know.
Is the photo taken before the event?
We know, yes, because you can see in the reflection of the non-cropped photo, you can see that the hall is empty.
It was before the event.
Okay, and this is, we're all fine with that one, yeah, correct, sirly?
You're good with that?
Yeah, I'm not bothered with that.
Okay.
And then the Trump one is taking while the event is ongoing, okay?
Do you agree that this is, and by the way, Chris, I'm glad you're here because I want
to ask you whether in general community knows it is a good solution because Sully loves to
shit on it, but he doesn't give a better solution.
So we'll get to that in a bit.
I did give a good solution.
I said you didn't give a better solution.
I did.
I said an open...
You know, I know what he said.
You don't need to repeat it, bro.
We'll get to that in a bit.
Let's get back to the photos.
Chris will probably say something similar because he's smart.
Okay, good, good.
All right, so let's get back to the photos.
One of them is before the event started.
One of them is after the event started.
We're good so far, Sully?
Okay.
Yeah.
And based on this photo, when someone sees it and sees the tweet, would you agree that the tweet implies the impression they get from it is that no one was at the Santis and people were at the Trump rally?
So far, we're good?
And that's the intention of the tweet.
We're good so far, yes?
Yeah.
Would you agree, I'm not saying community notes is the solution.
Would you agree that this is misleading?
No, that's the point I'm trying to make.
Because what you need to do is, because their argument was this, that the majority of the day, that the dissenter stand was unmanned.
So that picture could have been taken from before the day.
But they're implying, but silly, silly, I'll tell you what I mean.
If someone takes a photo of our space when it first start and there's 100 listeners.
And then I take a photo of some random space that has 500 listeners.
And then they say, hey, Mario only has 100 listeners and these guys have 500 listeners.
We're destroying Mario space.
Yeah. So thank you for using that example. Oh, brilliant. So if someone did that, and then they wrote, for most of Mario's space, which was six, eight hours long, for most of Mario Space, he had the smallest stream, right? Now, to disprove that, I wouldn't show, cry and get a community note. What you do is show an image for the whole day and show, actually, for this whole day, do you agree with this, Mario? For the whole day, actually, Mario Space was 10 times bigger than everybody else. Is that how you'd refute it? Yes or not?
So what you're just trying to understand what you're trying to do?
You agree with me?
I don't understand.
No, no.
I'm not going to give you yes or no for fuck sake.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Ask me a question.
Let me answer.
I don't understand your question.
That's why I can't give you yes or no.
Fuck.
Fuck.
Okay.
Yeah.
Do you agree that in odd, if someone said that Mario Spice had less people, the way to refute that is you show chart.
Okay.
So now we're talking, hold on.
Now we're talking about the solution on how to, like the community knows, what solution to address that misrepresentation.
Is that what we've moved on to?
But Suleiman.
Tullyman, they offer the evidence.
Guys, okay, I'm glad you ready.
Two seconds, Justin, two sex.
So what you're trying to talk about now,
Suli, is the solution.
Before getting to that, do you agree?
No, it's not the solution, Mario.
It's how you prove that what the original,
that the original post is misleading.
That's actually the evidence,
not saying the evidence is trust.
You prove it, you prove it by showing it's cropped
and it shows it's only been around for four minutes.
That's how you prove this photo,
these numbers are wrong.
Hey, it's cropped.
Without cropped, you'll see this one's only four minutes.
The other one's three hours.
That's why the numbers are different.
In this case, it's the same thing.
It's cropped.
You see this one, the event just started.
This one, the event hasn't started.
This one, the event started.
So the way I see this, I'll tell you how I see this,
let other speakers jump in.
But the way I see,
because you're a smart guy,
and I'm just really struggling to understand
how you're constructing this in your mind.
I'm sure there's a way.
I'm genuinely not understanding it.
No, I'm explaining it, but you obviously...
All I'm telling you is,
what we're seeing how,
we can't disagree that this is misleading.
We can't disagree that this is not showing
dissenters having less people than the Trump.
I'm talking about this particular tweet.
And, and...
Mario.
Yes.
Those that...
Right, looking at that tweet, right?
Do you know or don't, do those pictures tell you or not
whether that stand was empty for most of the day,
which is what the tweet says?
But that's the whole thing.
The tweet made a subjective assertion
with false photographic evidence.
We've proved the photographic evidence false.
Yeah, the photos, really, the photos,
yeah, the photos,
but the photos, you know, the photo is not fake,
but the photos being used in a misleading way.
That's what I'm trying to say.
The photo arrangement is fake.
Yeah.
The arrangement is, it's the same in my space.
It's the same thing again.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Let me just finish off, Ben, because I'll then go quiet for a long time.
What I'm saying is that if people take a screenshot of our space after four minutes or one minute
and another space after four hours, they're using this as quote-unquote evidence.
They're making you look like evidence, but it's misleading.
It's like they're saying this guy didn't.
I'm surprised you're not understanding, Mario.
If someone takes an image of our space after four minutes, right?
That neither confirms or denies whether this space had more viewers afterwards or not.
Yeah, but it was your assertion, Suleiman, that...
Let me walk through this real quick.
The tweet makes a subjective assertion in the tweet itself, in the text,
but it provides manipulative photographic evidence.
And somehow it's now on us to come up with photographic evidence...
Yeah, yeah, because your team...
Your team is trying to community notes.
To do what?
You guys have got the power...
Everyone has, hold on, hold on.
Everyone, I don't know where you're getting this facts from.
I don't know why you're getting those facts from Soleiman.
If we're seeing more, more communists.
We're going to come to Mario.
Rather than saying that, why don't you listen and learn to the evidence that Chief's going to give,
the information I'm going to stay, stuff for what Michael's going to stay,
and then maybe you'll understand why we're saying this is being cooperative.
Hold on.
Let me drill this down for you because I think the broader points being missed, okay?
So you guys are having a debate over whether or not a particular tweet was misleading.
Okay.
There are going to be a million different debates over the course of a political campaign as to whether a certain piece of information or political material or propaganda is misleading.
That's the nature of a political campaign. It's subjective contested claims as to the veracity of political assertions.
Why is that getting now resolved in the format of gamified algorithmic jostling in the manner of community notes?
It used to be that you would have a debate over whether the tweet was misleading or not just through the ordinary structures of debate on Twitter, which were tweets.
I mean, Twitter was founded based on tweets, like when a bird Twitter's.
It emits a lot of tweets.
That was like the building block of Twitter,
but now we have this separate thing called community notes.
So Twitter's now community not Twitter,
and tweets are no longer the main building block
of how to conduct a discussion or debate.
And actually, Jenna before gave another great example of the...
fundamental untenability of community notes as a system and why should you just be ditched wholesale.
It's irreparable. I think I agree with Silliman 100% should be gotten rid of yesterday.
So Jenna was saying, oh, she disagreed with a note about the bill that DeSantis signed in April when he went to Israel and...
for some reason ceremonially decided to sign a bill pertaining to criminal procedure in
Florida while he was in Israel.
That was my first tip away that he was 100% running for president.
But anyway, she says she doesn't agree that it was a hate speech bill.
I don't know, what text you read, Jenna, but I sure read that text.
and it expressly expands the range of...
That's false, so I can prove it.
I can prove it.
I'll cite to the case.
It expands the range of offenses that are classified as hate crimes under Florida law,
and the sponsor of the bill celebrated it as...
No, it doesn't.
Then you take it up with the sponsor of the bill himself, who touted the bill as expanding
the...
The whole point here...
That would be subject to criminal...
Anyway, that's not the point, but that's not the point, right?
Hold on, hold on, no, Jenna.
Jenna, no, hold on, let me finish.
I'll let you go.
Hold on, Jenna.
Let me finish the point.
I'll let you go.
Give me 30 seconds, okay?
Oh, my God.
The point is, we can have a debate back and forth as to our interpretations of the bill.
But if it's going to be litigated through community notes,
then it's going to get reduced into this algorithmic gaming exercise rather than an actual debate.
So the irony of community notes is that it actually stifles debate.
It doesn't produce more speech.
It curtails speech by supplanting tweets.
which had been, again, the DNA of Twitter from 2006 to 2022
with this weird secondary process that has these opacities
and is obviously subject to manipulation,
and nobody even knows what the criteria are
for when something gets a community note,
you could just community note and opinion that you disagree with.
I mean, was that really the initial purpose?
Anyway, go ahead, Jennifer.
No, the, okay, I find this really ironic
that you are saying that Twitter should be reduced to tweets
while you are being platformed on Twitter spaces.
when you then are dominating the microphone and using this context to put out your own opinion, right?
I mean, Twitter has multiple avenues for people to have a dialogue and go back and forth.
And all of you guys speaking as a lawyer, all of you guys are using this term,
litigated and proof and all of this stuff without realizing that this is the court of public opinion and there are not
parameters on speech the same way that you would prove or disprove in a court of law what yeah i know
i know where twitter space is not a court order okay so wait so and and so when
We're all talking about the usefulness of community notes or not.
The way that I say it's not curtailing free speech.
It's not suggesting that, you know, this has been proven, disproven, whatever.
Community notes is the same thing as spaces where people get to suggest their opinions just like
Twitter and people who have more followers, maybe they're gaming the system because they are more influential with their platform.
That's just the nature of speech that some people get listened to more than others.
And community notes as a system to provide more context is not in any way...
trying to censor the original tweet.
It's simply a method that people can say,
here is more context,
and then the reader can decide for themselves
if the community note makes sense or if it doesn't.
And everybody has the same access to community.
I don't find any of them.
Sorry, Jenna, finish your point,
and then I know you want to ask Chris questions, Sully.
Jenna, finish your point?
Sorry to meet you.
No, that's fine.
I was just saying, I don't find any of this persuasive that it's being weaponized
or that DeSantis is using this over and above anybody else.
Because if DeSantis posts something that the Trump campaign wants to dispute
and they want to start a community notes, well, the community notes people are going to all
have to do up or down vote it.
That's just the way that the system works.
So Chris, let me ask a question, Sully Sully.
Let me ask a question to Chris.
Let's go.
So I want to move on from this tweet.
I think the argument, so Sully's argument.
context because Chris, you might not know this, but Chris, your post was commuter, so you wrote a post about your concerns of the way community notes can be used.
And in the greatest of ironies, your post got community noted.
It was beautiful.
Yeah, so, I mean, it wasn't beautiful.
It was horrendous.
But Mario, I'll never like that.
Yeah, so I'm going to ask a good question and a broad question moving away from the notes.
So the argument that, um,
The argument that you should be making silly, instead of trying to debate these fucking photos and crop and proving, disproving, which is just such a silly argument, is community notes as a solution.
I'm not surprised if one side is going to dominate community notes more than another.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the DeSantis team has got more influence on it or the Trump team or any other team or the Republicans more than Democrats.
This is going to happen. This is part of decentralization.
I look at community notes as decentralizing trust.
And when there's, there's no such thing as perfect decentralization.
I learned this from crypto.
So we will see flaws.
And we're going to also, another flaw in community notes is the fact that they rely on, like,
for example, when I tweeted something from anonymous sources that I've verified the sources,
community notes can't go out and verify the same sources that I've got access to.
They can only rely on what's out there already in the media.
And they've community noted my tweet.
So I know community notes are going to be biased.
I know it's going to be abused.
And I know it's flawed in the fact that's getting its information from mainstream media.
in many cases. So my question to you is, despite these flaws, which will be addressed and it will
never be perfect, isn't it, in my opinion, it's foolish to already discount community notes
as a failure, because conceptually makes a lot of sense. And obviously you're an expert in
fighting censorship, you're leading the way in doing that. So I'd love to get your thoughts on this
point, Chris.
Yeah, you bet. So I didn't say that it's a failure at all. All I kind of pointed out was that Community Notes is going to be gamed and hijacked. At least I think it will be and eventually will be over a long period of time.
And the reason why I say that is just based on the history of what I've seen on the internet, you have platforms like Wikipedia, which have been gamed over a long period of time.
It took a lot of time to really game it really in a really good way.
But it got gamed.
A lot of money, a lot of groups.
They were able to game Wikipedia.
Yeah.
When you look at Community Notes versus Wikipedia, sure, it's better.
It definitely has some interesting aspects to it that make it better.
It also has aspects to it that make it worse.
It's less transparent.
You don't know exactly, the public doesn't know exactly who's actually making those calls.
So it kind of counterweights both different ways.
And, you know, in the last, being in this space that I've been in for quite some time,
It's been very obvious to me that truths are different to different people.
What your truth is is going to be different to somebody else's truth.
And it's going to create the debate that you're seeing on this spaces right now where everyone has a different opinion.
So is it truth is different to different people or truth is, there's only one truth, but there's different interpretations or opinions of it?
Well, that's your opinion just on that alone.
And you're, that's, that's subjective to who you're asking that to.
So there's, the way, the way we see it, like the whole COVID situation, there's a lot of things that changed.
The truth was different one moment and it changed the next moment based on more information.
and things kind of evolve.
If you look at like world conflicts,
and there's a lot of facts from one side,
but another side will tell you a different fact.
So it's really in the eye of the beholder of what that truth is,
and that's the way we look at it.
When it comes to, like, community note...
True. There's totally different things, though, Chris.
You're mixing science and truth.
I think you're trying to complain...
You're bringing out a philosophical idea when you're talking about facts.
I think we're following you, but you might want to use your verbiage a little bit different.
Sure.
Okay, so when it comes to, like, fact-checking information and putting labels on information...
That's where we we stepped back and we didn't take that approach.
Back, you know, in 2000, when COVID happened, the fact checking started happening on YouTube and it started happening on Facebook.
All the companies took different approaches.
They brought in third parties that they thought were better.
It got gamed.
Community Notes is now like the new medium here for Twitter.
But the problem I have with community notes is that,
It's like forcible intrusion on my tweet that for me, when I make an opinion, that community note is going to look like an authority above me that makes me look worse and it makes my opinion look like it's wrong.
and I don't agree with that.
I think like there's been lots of methods in the past for the last 20 years
I've had a counter how to counter people's opinions.
For one, you can ratio someone on Twitter.
That's been a great way to kind of expose how bad a tweet is.
And that's what I've, you know, I've been seeing for a very long time.
But like, nevertheless, the major question.
Isn't that equally embarrassing and shouldn't that be banned?
When you're a ratio, that batters down someone's reputation.
Should we allow that?
Yes, but I'm not forcibly intruding on your...
I'm not forcibly intruding on the same.
Isn't the ratio that's used to batter down someone's reputation,
the same type of ratio that is used to promote a community note on that tweet?
Chris's point is actually really good because, and I say that it's someone who's not on
Sully's or Chris's side about like, or not to say their side of the same,
but about their sort of opposition to community notes in certain ways.
But he makes a good point, which is the community notes when they get published,
are quite large and the text is quite large.
It's almost like it brings that.
tweet, sorry, that note, if that note had been a tweet, it would have been pretty far down
it'd have to scroll. Instead, it's right next to and right under and quite large on the tweet.
It would be completely reasonable for someone like me who loves community notes to say that
maybe the note should be a little smaller, or maybe there should be an indicator instead of a massive
what do you call, instead of, you know, a massive excerpt of the community note.
Because arguably, we all use Twitter so that when we post things,
it's our post that's seen most prominently.
But when there's a community note attached to it,
now it's almost like your speech has had something appended to it
that you didn't want to and made as high profile as yours
without you really having a choice.
So if some people wanted to say, or if Chris wanted to say that community notes should be a little smaller,
At a minimum, maybe he'd want even more than that, but if he said they should just be a bit smaller,
I don't think there would be a good, you know, a good argument against making them a little smaller.
Yeah.
But no one, Chris, let me, let me ask you, Chris,
because your tweet from a few days ago was that community notes on Twitter is a really bad idea.
It's a fancy word for fact checking.
We'll eventually be game to hijack and carve more harm than good.
But so there was a viral tweet that was going around the other day, just for example,
about somebody posted a picture and said MH370, the Malaysian Airlines flight that disappeared.
Yeah.
in the Indian Ocean years and years ago was found.
And they posted these pictures of a plane underwater.
What it actually was, was an artificial reef.
And so it had been community noted telling people that.
So are you saying that community notes should be totally abolished,
or does it need to be just totally reworked?
Because I know what Sleighman's answer is,
you should be believing that MH370 was found under the water.
So what do you think?
Thank you.
I'm of the belief adults can make up their own minds and they should choose what they want to see and what they want to hear.
And I think we're smart enough to make up our own decisions and do our own research.
I think the idea of trying to fact check misinformation is the wrong approach.
I think there's media companies that can go do that for us.
There's a lot of media companies that try to do that all the time.
Exactly. If they're very bad, then a lot of other places will be very bad.
But I think the best solution is to like, is definitely not to impose anything on someone's tweet.
I think that's wrong. I think that's a, that is not free speech in any sense of the meaning to alter my tweet to make it look different than other people's tweets that the community notes believes is right.
Chris, what I had to change about this yesterday, I think that's some of misconception people have, right?
Censorship doesn't have to be direct suppression of speech in order to qualify as something under the umbrella of censorship, right?
If you forcibly alter a speech, which without the consent of the speaker, then you are imposing a variation of censorship upon them.
So the analogy that I use that I use...
mentioned to you, and you seem to think that this was pretty accurate as to your own view,
is that let's say somebody prints a leaflet, a physical leaflet, that's a political kind of
manifesto and distributes it around town. And the quote-unquote community, which by way is a creepy
or well in type turn, I mean, who's the community? It's so, you know, non-specific. But let's say
the community decides to plaster a big red sticker on every copy of the leaflet.
with the words, this leaflet is wrong, fascist, racist,
you know, anti-vax, whatever, pro-Trump.
And everybody concludes, therefore, that the leaflet
conveys certain a certain kind of speech that was not actually intended by the initial speaker in fact there was an external imposition on the speaker's speech and that i think is the way to think of this
i mean i for one net did not consent to community notes slapping links to defense dot gov and cnn on my tweets so i have i i have with against my will
had my speech be a vehicle for the promotion of defense department press releases.
That literally happened.
And that's been the same with every community note that I've, at least I've experienced.
So I don't know. I think if the defense department gets to use my speech to promote their own propaganda,
I think that's, it's warranted to wonder whether that's actually a contaminant speech.
Before going to Max, you go ahead.
Your text can be restated again in another tweet.
And similarly, you can also have a community note applied to the Department of Defense's tweets.
So it's not really accurate to say that, you know, it's analogous to your flyer suddenly having something appended on it.
Each time, you can't be a tweet.
Just like it changes the character of the leaflet if there's a sticker on it.
If my tweet is dominated by a link to the Pentagon and a fact check on behalf of the Pentagon,
that's what they see my tweet.
It changed the entire character of the speech conveyed.
You have a right to post your tweet, and other people have an opportunity to say what they think of it.
But your tweet hasn't been removed.
No, they're taking the opportunity to alter the message you can say by the speech.
They can reply to it.
I welcome that, but not change what I've said.
How was the community note any different than a reply, though?
I mean, it's-
What's your question?
Hold on, guys, guys.
What's your question, Bonchie?
You got to unmute you, bro.
Yeah, sorry.
No, no, Chief, your next, hold on, Chief.
Your next promise.
Go ahead, Bonchy.
Yeah, I think there's a fundamental
what a community note is.
I mean, some people are saying it's one thing,
and I think, free that all it is
is people getting together and voting for
what is ultimately a reply to your tweet.
It's no different than a reply.
It doesn't.
any extra weight by being put underneath.
So why not use a reply?
Why weaponize a bunchie?
Why not use a reply?
If you want to, if you want to stay,
that somebody says something in Africa.
Look, I mean, I think the idea that it's being...
Replies are currently attached to my tweet.
The community order is.
A super reply.
I mean, can you block replies? Is that what you're saying?
How can you say that if a reply is the same?
If the replies don't get permanently attached to your tweet without any recourse,
and a community note does just that.
You have no recourse to get rid of that.
High ranking replies go to the top of the list of reply.
It's quite similar.
It's not.
I find it hilarious.
I'll tell you what.
I find hilarious.
I'll tell you what I find hilarious.
Conservatives, this is specifically DeSantis Campia,
who essentially cried and wailed about the previous Twitter regime
and how they, as there was a trust and safety board,
and they were deciding what was appropriate,
what was misinformation, what was disinformation,
and they cried and cried and cried.
And now the fact that they've got the power,
which is what I always said that once they took the power,
things would be different.
Now they want people to post.
Are we like,
are we like emailing the staff at Twitter?
You guys are literally,
I like, hold on.
I just like how just,
just,
Chief,
you're going to go,
stop waving,
bro,
I promise you're going to go next.
But silly,
I like how you're just politicizing.
It's immediate.
Just want to Sanchez's people are crying.
Everyone on Twitter is complaining. Everyone, let me... Bro, bro.
Once you go to Chief, you'll see...
We're gonna go to Chief because you keep using him as a reference.
Like, he's the... He's got the facts to basically.
I didn't ask you a question. I didn't ask you the question to explain.
But I'd be saying that everyone is complain...
Okay, go ahead, bro. Please go on.
No, because you said it's been politicized.
I said you're gonna explain to you.
All right, but it has been politicized.
If you look on this board, on this exact panel,
the only people who are spot on community notes on this panel are all dissenters of people,
this because they control it.
That's the reason they're defending it.
You don't see one.
Okay, I want to, I want to, I'm going to ask Chief on the evidence that they control it.
Before he takes the mic, because he's been dying to tell us the evidence he has.
Silly, everyone is complaining when you're referring to the, I've got two points to make.
Actually, I'll make three, because one refers to Chris.
Chris, you did mention about how we should trust people's ability
to determine what's true or not.
But the thing is, like, we've seen throughout history
that humans are pretty shit at determining truth.
And not only because we're just not capable of doing it,
but like when you look at tweets, everyone's just scrolling through tweets,
People are not going to have time to go there and check these photos are fake.
I'm talking about that plane, that crash, and they apparently, quote, unquote, found.
So I don't think, I'm just saying we're giving humans too much credit for it.
But the thing is, the thing is that same flaw, though, is going to apply to community notes because it's humans that are community noting and it's in a,
decentralized way. But I think when we have the likelihood of multiple people coming together
and spending time for the purpose of community noting is less likely to get it wrong than a
random person going through a tweet. So I think it's like a step in the right direction. And remember,
guys, and let's call this my second point, Twitter's advertising revenue. I don't know if this
leak is evidence is true or not, but Twitter's advertising revenue dropped drastically because
advertisers are not happy.
with this new censorship-free regime at Twitter.
So you can't expect Twitter to just be a free-for-all.
There should be some level of censorship if Twitter is to survive.
And then, you know, obviously the new CEO could be an example of that,
and we've seen what happened in Turkey.
You know, we've taken a step in the right direction.
I think comparing community notes to the old Twitter regime
is just going too extreme.
But let's see what chief, what information you have
because Suli keeps referring to you.
There's a lot of it.
Okay.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
the Janet person would still be here because I had some questions with her.
So there's, but there's a funny, uh, thing with the Santa's people.
And, um, they made this little private, uh, there's a private group called Noon Needed.
And this group kind of started.
i're a reason why i made the threat about this and why this whole issue is a big issue now so for
the reason why i'm talking about this is because there is a disant there's a group of writers
it's not a group i'm not let's finish and chief can i i know you're gonna you're gonna
say a lot yeah i would i would okay silly yes chief just quick i'm gonna interrupt with a question
so i apologize and i might be taking these two few steps forward so if i am you can
continue saying what you're saying but just quickly um
You know how you're saying Descentus people?
I know you're probably gonna get to it,
but let me ask you from now.
You're not saying the census people controlled it.
Sorry for my ignorance, but anyone could use community notes.
And I think you'd agree there's a lot more Trump supporters
and the Santa-
Okay, correct me, that's what I'm saying, correct me.
Okay, so two people are saying 100% and you're saying it's wrong.
So, Chief, please give me the facts.
You're a really nice guy, and you're always objective,
unlike my co-hoes.
Can't anyone use community notice?
That's number one.
And number two is if anyone could use it,
and I'm sure there's more Trump supporters
than the Santa supporters based on the numbers,
and especially on Twitter,
you guys, or a chief Trumpster,
I'm guessing you're a Trump supporter,
you guys fucking dominate the narrative.
then how can't we just see now a shift?
So right now it's leaning more in support of the scientists.
You guys are all going crazy about it.
A lot of you support, Trump supporters will go use community notes
and then it will balance it out.
Technically speaking, if it's really decentralized,
it will then balance out itself.
Chief, I know I've made a lot of, Chief,
I know I've made a lot of points.
Please go ahead.
Yeah, so this is very simple, actually.
I'm saying, well, my point is, is that anybody, any group, left wing, right wing, sender, a corporation, a government, can weaponize community notes as they see fit?
I'm calling out in a clear example of where a dissantis operatives ping a group of accounts in this private little thing, which you can search up.
It's not a group.
Twitter account.
You can,
okay,
before Ben and Ross again.
Chief,
yeah,
let's let you,
Ben,
like,
I let you take notes
of the things
that he says
that you disagree with
and then we can go to you
before because you're pretty vocal
and you know a lot about this as well.
So go ahead,
Chief.
Okay.
Yeah. So the issue when the account called No Need, it says we're run by a group of volunteers, a group. It says we. So they're plural. It's run by a group. So you can say it's a singular account, but who's they run by? A group of volunteers. That's why I say a group. And of that group of volunteers, there are the Santa's writers on there, including one that popped up.
yesterday in a space and to add additional context to it when the desantis people when i say
operatives christina fashaw tagged this group three times how did she know to tag this group is
private account that's run by a group of writers how did you know a tag that and how can she's
followed
and how she how she find that group first of all how did she get into that group and how can we look through all the tweets in that note needed they're all tweets that are critical of the santhus from the left and from the right i'm not saying that um this issue is not going to be trump people can do this anybody can use this anybody the right the left the center a corporation a lobby group can imagine if a johnson and johnson weaponize the community notes to shut down studies that they agree with
So this issue is an impact the election of 2024.
And I'm calling on Ben and anybody here
to condemn a campaign that tags a group of writers to go and write notes and say the note is,
they don't agree with.
And this,
the reason why there's this whole issue,
because they put a note on my tweet,
which was removed promptly because it was argumentative.
And even on that note on the Trump debacle,
my issue is not even that the table thing is right or wrong.
The issue was a campaign tagged that note group to make that specific note on that tweet.
And they referred to a PAC,
as the source you want to say a third party source go for it but to use your own opposition
as a source is great is terrible can imagine if a johnson johnson used the johnson johnson
study that they use to debunk a study that a third party did on a drug
So I want everybody to clearly, first of all, for Ben to admit that there is coordination with the Santhas people into tagging that group.
And for all those tags, there were corresponding notes.
And also for him to say, without a shout out, that any person, including Trump people, including the Santhus people, including Biden people, could go and use the notes in a malicious way or a coordinated way.
That's a bad thing.
So why am I answer his question?
Specifically, Ben, not anyone else.
Ben?
What a deep point,
and this is what you're going to understand what chief is saying.
He's asked Ben a question.
I don't know if you heard him.
Yeah, yeah, but Ben,
before Ben answers,
what you need to realize,
what chief's saying is salient,
although you're enjoying it right now
because you have some level of control over it,
if it gets corrupted by the liberals,
then you will be the first one's crying.
So essentially,
this is why it can be weaponized,
and you need to understand it from a holistic point of view
rather than from a specifically
minutia point of view
that you're winning the war right now.
Ben, go ahead.
If you, yeah, I'll also really quickly, if you point to me a group of Trump people who are in a private group and they're tagging to, if they have a Trump note needed and they have a bunch of Trump supporters doing it from a campaign that's coordinating this, I'll call that out. So I'll like to answer the question then.
Okay. So first I'll start by saying, since you brought up this note needed account, that first, I can tell you for sure that.
It's not all about Desantis and Trump, or even all about politics.
It's a Twitter account, which apparently multiple people have access to.
In the same way that Mario, I got an invite to this space today from Rick,
on Mario's team, who uses Mario's account with Mario's authority to help manage inviting people to spaces.
Okay? So is Mario also a group account? I don't know. I'll let him answer that.
And Mario, by the way, I'm not trying to call you out. I'm saying that there are many Twitter accounts that are run by multiple people.
Every Twitter account that's extremely high profile, especially, say, in politics, like, I don't know, the war room for Trump or the war room for DeSantis, is there only one single person running that account?
And apparently, there's no rule against a single Twitter account being run by multiple people.
If there is, then Team Trump has to go, Donald Trump's Twitter account has to go every single person who uses a Twitter account for a company or for anything else where more than one person runs the Twitter account.
If we're going to follow Chief Trump's concerns to the logical end point, those accounts have to go away.
So that's my first point.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Let me pause right there.
That's not the point I'm saying.
You're missing.
That's not me.
That was just one point.
That wasn't his point.
Let him respond to that because you miscontrol his point.
Go ahead, Chief.
Yeah, the point, there are a, there are a, I might say that most people can use one account.
That's not my contention.
The contention is that there are a group of writers in there.
And a lot of them have been biased towards Asantis.
And this has specifically been, or there are a group of accounts on there that are,
are manipulating a Twitter feature community notes
at the direction of a campaign.
So I'm not saying you're not allowed to have
five people run one account if you're a corporation
or 10 people or whatever.
That's not my point.
The point is that this group of writers,
which some are DeSantis people,
were pinged by a campaign operation
to flag a tweet that they agree with.
And in some of these instances,
they use a opposition source
as the evidence. So that's the issue here. And if you look actually on my...
What's your evidence on this? Where's your proof?
I can ping it to the Jumatron. That's good.
I would love that.
There was one tweet by Never Back Down, which is a DeSantis affiliated pack, where
that a tweet by them was used as the source
in the community note that was written
to say, no, this picture arrangement was misleading.
And Chief Trump is citing that
as proof of a opposition campaign
being used as a source.
But he doesn't actually really say it's false.
He's just concerned
that Never Backdown's Twitter accounts post
was used as the source.
Now, if you want to make a rule that a tweet...
that a Twitter account cannot be used as a source if it is of a certain disposition.
Well, that's a separate argument than saying that the information is false.
But I want to just quickly address everything what Chief Trump said.
You already made your point.
You already made your points.
I want to finish answering them as you'd like me to.
Wait, but that you...
True, and I'm trying to go point by point here to be constructive about this.
My content is not that the tweet itself is true or false.
My attention is we're having an operation that uses their own, like one of their own arms as a source.
And I think that's not correct.
If you want to get a third party, a person that's not affiliated with the DeSantis team to as a source, that's one thing.
But you cited your own opposition side, which should not happen.
If there's a, if there's a, if you just had just tweet that Trump notes on something,
and the note refers to the Trump Act, that's not, that shouldn't be okay.
Trust in the fact.
If somebody makes a tweet that says that, um, I was, that I shoplifted from, um, a convenience store.
Okay.
And I have at a certain time on a certain date.
And I have a picture of myself.
with my family at dinner at that exact time and place.
Does that mean that I can't be cited,
even though no one else would have the picture of me
with my family at that restaurant at that time and place?
Are you saying that if the person who has proof
of the false nature of a claim is that person
and no one else has that proof,
that the person with the proof can't provide it?
What are you saying?
First point, by definition, that would happen because the notes require a lot of, a lot of consensus.
Second point, it is apples to oranges.
We're talking about a campaign in a whole operation, not individual person.
It's not an apple to oranges because the analogy is that the source should not come from the person about whom it's being said.
That's your position.
And that position doesn't make sense.
Because you have-
Nobody would want to be told that they can't be the source of a fact about themselves.
This is Apple's Orange's again because this is a campaign.
This is a not just some random Bob from, you know, from Detroit or whatever or from some small town.
This is a campaign with multiple people.
This is a campaign that is millions of dollars.
This is, you can call it a corporation.
This is a large entity that has.
has a lot of backing, has a lot of influence,
and that's not the same as a random person off the street.
Are you saying that if somebody says that Donald Trump was,
punched a woman in the face at a restaurant,
and his campaign has proof, actual true proof,
that he didn't punch a woman at,
at that time and place, and he was actually somewhere else that time in place,
that Donald Trump's campaign can't post that proof and that can't be cited in a community note,
that would be so unfair to Donald Trump.
If he cannot have his campaign provide information that is true,
That would not be fair to him.
Can we talk about this?
Chief, let me, let me shift.
The audience is so weak.
Let me shift just a little bit, guys, here, because, you know, we're talking about this, this tweet about the tables at the, you know, event or whatever and whether or not the Santasas people were actually there.
But let's move past that a little bit.
Well, there's all the other stuff from Trump said that we were supposed to comment on that we didn't actually get to.
We're only talking about this because people are...
I do want to bring this next tweet up real quick here.
So Trump War Room tweeted on May 30th of this year, said,
DeSanctimonious is now making a show of promising to fire FBI director Christopher Ray,
but DeSantis voted for Ray's confirmation in 2017,
praising him as talented, capable, and highly respected.
Now, what is the problem with this?
It got community noted.
The FBI director is voted on to be confirmed by the Senate, not the House, which Ronda
Santos was a member of.
He was a congressman.
He was not a senator.
So at that point, you know, and I'll ask you this, Chief, why should that not be community
noted?
Because that's just, that's completely untrue.
You're cutting out with it for me. Can you say one more than time? I'm sorry about that.
Hey, Nick, were there not enough opportunities to refute Trump prior to October of 2022?
I mean, I don't think we were lacking for means by which to tell the public when Trump said something that was considered misleading.
I mean, you guys act like all of a sudden this mystical technology arrived and finally misinformation or whatever is.
under control on the internet. I don't know. I never really had a problem getting word out or having word given to me that people think that Trump said something that was misleading. Like all of a sudden now that's like this supremely necessary thing. I don't get it.
But okay, but Chief, this is this is blatantly false. This is blatantly false. Okay. Either somebody didn't do any sort of research at all or they lied.
Those are the only two options here.
So why should this not be corrected in something like a community note?
I think the bigger point here
is that this whole controversy started
because there's this tool
available and some people use
it and other people refuse to use it
or don't know how to use it or don't want to use it
and they got pissy because
they realized other people were using it better than
they were. This is the same as refusing
to vote early by mail and then being shocked
when the mail ballots are overwhelmingly
for your opponent. That's all
this is. It's just disingenuous concern
trolling from a Nick Fuente's friend.
So if
Politicians, Nick, have always told falsehoods.
But the expectation was never that you had to actually improve on the receipt to correct the...
One second, one second, guys.
Who did that noise that?
So we don't have that on here.
That's like childish.
Michael, what you said?
Oh, I was going to say that, Nick, I mean...
Sorry, I was going to ask Max.
What did you mean by Nick Fuentes?
I missed your point.
What did you say?
He's saying because I'm a friend of him
that that's supposed to
This is the problem, Max.
He always does this.
He always has to go low below.
Oh, yeah.
It's a very...
So, Max, can you not talk about the point rather than get personal, like you normally do?
The point is here that, yes, at least now finally, Max has admitted that they have been able to figure out how to control community notes.
And the reason why...
There's no control, sir, man.
I'm not saying the people are voting.
I appreciate you finally admitting it that you guys manage to figure it out.
And maybe, as you're saying, Trump people are not smart enough to figure it out and you're able to control it.
So at least you admit that.
Right.
Not what you're silly, silly.
Can you not just put words in people's mouth as a host
And then you know, let them...
Yeah, can you...
You can't just put people, words in people's mouth
And then they're responding saying,
That's not what I said,
And you keep shutting them down
When they're saying, that's not what I said.
It's not nice to do at all.
I'm literally not using the Mue button at all.
Yeah, but you didn't let him speak, bro.
He's trying to speak.
And as a host, as a host, people don't give you this.
People give you the mic more than a speaker just because you're the host.
Like, look, everyone's quiet now because I'm speaking as a host.
So that's, you got to keep that in mind, especially at a time.
I can't drop you down, bro.
I'm not able to moderate.
I've been awake for way too long.
But I'm just, I'm just giving you thoughts.
Max is saying something.
I didn't say that.
and let him correct himself
well he's saying he didn't say that
so let's see maybe he wants to change what he said so max
give us clarification what he said
I didn't even hear what he said
yeah don't lie at this time Max don't lie at this time
right yeah so here's the thing
they're jealous that this tool exists
and that for some reason they're not using it.
And then part of the reason is that the candidate that they support
is more inclined to post things on the war room
that are easily,
provably untrue, whereas the Santus doesn't do that,
except this one time when it added more context to say,
oh, they raise the most money, but only with this context.
And Ben talked about that earlier.
And that's what's really going on.
They're just mad that they're getting fact checked.
There's no principle here.
So, so Max just demonstrated that...
Max, Max, level of...
It's not just some neutral...
Max, Max, I didn't...
I did, so you can still use the muto about it.
It's all of your paranoid.
No, no, I don't want to use my power.
It's a fair unfair debate.
It's mano or mano.
Right.
Listen, Max, Max, Max, let me just ask Max some of my chief.
So, Max, you said...
Right? Before Mario said, I put words in your mouth because he always says that even though it's inaccurate.
So, Max, you said somebody's jealous.
Who's? Okay. So Max, when you said so much jealous, who did you mean by who's jealous?
They're jealous if they don't have the capability.
Because they're dealing.
No, no, if they're going against a candidate who doesn't deal with the who.
Who did you mean is jealous? One word answer, please.
They're jealous.
Who is they? Chief Trumpster.
No, I'm not actually...
No, he doesn't have to mean...
He doesn't want to miss Sully.
He doesn't want to miss gender, I guess.
No, no, you know what it is?
Because you said that word.
You said, oh, I'll put words in his mouth.
Again, Max, Max, if you said something,
I don't know what you said, because I just jumped...
This is the problem, Marry,
whenever you do this, that people start using that.
No, I just, even if...
They're jealous that...
They're jealous that's...
That's Sanchez fans are supporting someone
who's running a campaign
who doesn't, that doesn't rely
on, like, the majority of the attacks on the other side
being complete bullshit.
So, Max,
You said this was your argument before
and let me reiterate.
Max, what you could do,
just, yeah, Silly, make the clarification,
but Max, what you do,
if you said something and then you want to change,
you say, look, I said that, but I change it.
Like, Descarriage, just changed what he said.
It's fine.
Go ahead, Sully.
Yeah, bro.
Be courageous.
So my point is,
you said...
The Trump, essentially alluded to that the Trump people,
I used that they, let's use the word,
they are jealous, brackets Trump people,
that you've been able to use the system well
and being able to use it.
And whereas they're too dumb to be able to figure out to use it.
And so really jealous, but you're able to use it.
So yeah, I mean, no one's,
I'm not even disagree with you there,
that you guys were smart enough.
And that was the problem with the system
that someone who's smart enough
is able to use it, game it and control it.
And that's what Chris was talking about earlier.
And you guys have controlled it, fine,
but later someone else may control it.
Yeah, okay.
But, you know, man, let me ask you this.
I'm going to go back to this point
before we get off of it.
Because the Trump war room was community noted for the fact that they said that Ron DeSantis voted to confirm Christopher Ray as director of the FBI, which is blatantly false.
You don't think that should have been community noted?
I've just told you Nick, I've told you from the beginning.
You understand this people are okay with them because you guys have a power of...
I answer the specific, silly.
You didn't answer the specific questions.
I'm talking about the specific tweet.
I'm saying this should be zero community notes.
There should be zero.
A person should be able to...
So if now you realize Nick that that...
Trump's people are lying, you know what you do, you respond to it.
It is not like dissenters people haven't got big profiles.
So the way, so the way democracy works, democracy is a form of decentralization.
The way democracy works.
This is not decentralized, Mario, because when it comes to community notes,
when it comes to community notes, you've got to apply for it.
Not everybody exists.
Yeah, this is so, so let me explain to you.
On top of that, if you've been banned, Mario, let me finish the point because you keep thinking you're using this.
On top of that, when you've been banned, or you've had a suspension, you're not allowed to join community notice for six months.
So a lot of Trump people who maybe were against the vaccine spoke out about January, Jan 6th are not eligible for six months to apply.
So essentially, it's not decentralized.
It's about who can get any.
I don't, so let me, let me.
Are you always disconcerted about the false statements of Donald Trump?
So just two seconds.
Sully.
decentralization is not binary.
You put everything into a black and white basket.
It's not binary.
There's different levels, different layers to decentralization.
The U.S. political system is decentralized.
Would you say it's completely decentralized?
Of course knows.
There's a lot of centralizations that we always argue against.
There's chiefs rumpster.
Stop waving chief.
Jesus.
So what I'm saying is that community knows is decentralized.
I'm not going to say most people can apply.
Now you said people that were banned, suspended can't.
What percentage of accounts, because we know them,
because obviously all these influences
that are come on our spaces,
we know them because we're very involved.
What percentage of accounts on Twitter
have been suspended?
Let's talk about Trump accounts.
I'm sure you don't have the numbers,
but I'm making a point by asking that question.
You don't know.
It's very likely a very, very, very small percentage.
Now, between me and you, we think,
we might think it's a lot because we deal with those people.
We see so many people suspended, many people
that have been on our stage.
Yes, because these are the people that come on our stage.
But the millions and millions of people
that use Twitter that support Trump
99.999 whatever with percent of them is not suspended.
So I think your, your concerns are valid.
Your point is valid though.
The point is valid that you pointed out is like,
maybe Twitter, maybe, sorry, community knows,
has been weaponized by the scientists people.
Maybe, even Max is not the C,
Max is not the CFO or COO.
He's one of their, he's one of their guys.
He doesn't, yeah, he might be.
Yeah, okay, he might admit that...
I'm a guy with opinions.
Can I ask you a question?
They can ask you a question for...
You're the weapon.
Michael, just hold on, just because there's a few hands up, Michael.
Okay, so, soon, the point, Michael...
Michael, I just told you there's hands up.
You're like, yep, and then you go ahead.
Thank you, George, bro.
So, Sully, I love Michael.
I swear to God, I'm starting to have a very soft spot for Michael.
I know, I just about myself.
No, I know.
I'm not affected by anyone more than you when I'm scolded.
So you're the best scolding it.
No, bro.
So Sully, your point, though, even though I think you're making a lot of bad points here,
there's some valid points you're making.
I'm making zero bad points, bro.
The problem is a point, please, let me finish the point.
You're not understanding because you're very simple-minded.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Let me just have one point.
Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, please just tell me this.
Have you always been bit deeply troubled by the false statements of Donald Trump?
Or is that a phenomenon that happens to have just come about within the last couple months?
And also, isn't this, are you acknowledging?
No, no, no, no, no, no, you guys, I'm not going to hold on.
No, no, no, no, no.
I don't care about Nick's opinions in this case because we're trying to talk about it.
No, I don't, no, okay, look.
I don't know if you hear about speaking.
So, silly, the point you're saying that makes sense
instead of caring about Nick, yeah?
I don't know why you're fucking obsessed with personal attacks.
Now you're attacking Nick's ideology,
trying to paint him as bias,
just so you can attack all his points,
just by putting him in a bias basket.
And personal attacks on me, I'm used to them.
I admit, I admit. I mean that.
No shit, you're doing it, bro.
The point I'm making, the good point you're making,
the only fucking good point is that, yes,
anything that's decentralized is going to be weaponized.
I'm not surprised if this has been weaponized by the Santos people.
Maybe it isn't.
Maybe the Trump camp is saying more false things.
I know some of you are saying that.
Maybe that's the case.
But I wouldn't be surprised if it's weaponized.
Let me finish my fucking point.
I haven't stopped talking.
I never said this is the case.
I said this is the case. I said this is one argument being made.
Okay, fuck.
So the thing I'm saying, I'm not surprised.
But the solution is not abolishing it.
An experiment has only existed for a few months rather than continue proving it.
Because in my opinion, this seems to be a pretty balanced place, far from perfect.
And obviously I've been the victim of it a couple of times.
But it's been a balanced place, a balanced middle between censorship by a very few executives.
within the company, and we saw what they did a few years ago, that's very centralized,
and a place, a quote-unquote town hall that's completely decentralized,
which I can guarantee you will end Twitter.
Twitter will not exist if it's completely decentralized.
And we're seeing an example of it here live.
We're seeing how the financial strain is going through from advertisers.
So I'm just saying when you become binary silly, you say things that sound great for the audience, but they're not
that they cannot be achieved.
But let's see, and I'm not sure if you've been waving a lot, but I'm not going to go to you.
I'll go to other speakers.
I haven't spoken yet.
It's been achieved by the Rumble CEO.
He's on the platform, so it can be achieved.
I don't know.
That's a fair point.
And I don't want to, yeah, go ahead, Ben.
Go ahead.
Then I'll respond to the Rumble point because we've discussed it before.
Go ahead, Ben.
Thank you.
Okay, last four to five seconds a minute and then I'm out.
Okay, so Chief Trumpster says that this is being weaponized by the DeSantis campaign,
but he doesn't actually describe how anything that he claims that the quote-unquote DeSantis camp is doing,
which, by the way, I don't work for the campaign indirectly or directly or paid by them in any way,
neither does Max, okay?
Saying that tagging notes needed or note needed is weaponization.
That's not weaponization.
That's literally people who happen to support DeSantis.
and people who have other concerns about tweets unrelated to DeSantis, tagging note needed, and then...
People can see if you're a friend of notes needed that they are simply saying you can vote on this tweet.
Anybody with community notes can choose to go to, you know, Trump tweets, DeSantis tweets all day long and type up pending notes.
So note needed as an account isn't something you need to worry about.
You can just go to DeSantis' tweets as a community notes member and post pending tweets that we voted on.
Secondly, Chief Trump claims that it's.
full of defamperous people.
Here's the problem.
Here's the problem.
Chief Trump,
you can become a community.
Wait, let me just finish.
Right.
Where Chief, just let Ben finish.
Anybody who want to join community notes can join community notes.
If your claim is that people aren't getting in, you need to show some proof that you've applied
and let us know when and how long it's been.
Because right now, it sounds like a lot of people who could join community notes just aren't joining.
And that's really strange to me.
Last point, and then I'm really, really done.
Okay.
And this is really?
No, no, seriously.
And it's just four quick points.
Okay.
Community notes is the result of divergent...
Oh, perfect point, bro.
Sully, Sully, in order for a community note to be posted,
people who have voted in an opposite way on other tweets...
need to have voted in the same way on that tweet.
Okay, so it requires, requires divergent voters
to have voted in the same way on that tweet.
Second, go to the community notes.
Okay, it shows the open source formula used for it,
and you can download data and run all the analytics you want
on how community notes is done.
It's designed to work even if it's,
attempting, even if people are attempting to weaponize it. So what you're saying is wrong and
anybody listening on this space, you can apply to community notes now and anybody who's concerned
about how it's working, you can go to the community notes help page. It's a very, very, very long
page and you can download yourself the analytics data and run the analytics yourself. And if you're
going to say community notes is being weaponized, you have got to prove it.
Enough saying, but Ben, Ben, I do want to say it.
No, let me go to Chief.
Let me go to, Ben's talk for like 20 minutes.
Let's go to Chief.
Chief, you had a response, and then I've got a response to it as well as well.
Chief, go ahead, on mute.
Yeah, so.
Quick point just to reiterate, if I'm a friend of somebody doesn't dispute the point being made.
That's for Max.
But going to Ben specifically.
First point, I never said that community notes are only for, only certain people can apply for that.
I never made that claim.
You put that from nowhere.
I never made that claim.
To further emphasize on the community notes, I applied in, like, April.
And I've been waiting for months about this.
And I've actually DM people about this.
Can you send us a screenshot just so you know, to run on the Jumbotron?
Yeah.
I don't know you change the profile to the Santa's profile, you might get in-chief.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I...
Reply, please.
So Ben's a trip at first.
The second point, right?
I'll try to finish before Ben interrupted again.
He's attributing things that I never really claimed.
And he didn't really dismiss...
I see weaponizing.
So is he conceding that the Santhus operatives
are pinging a private group of the Santhus writers?
And are you admitting that this is coronation to manipulate a
Twitter feature, community notes.
I've tagged notes
and so can view.
I've tagged notes needed and so can you.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, but who controls notes needed?
Is it DeSantis people?
Yes or no?
Yeah, we need to proof on that.
That's a big claim that's being made that it's a group and a hashtag being controlled.
Like who?
Yeah, do you have a cheap way.
Why don't you prove that it's a Santa supporter?
Maybe it's a Trump supporter who made it.
Why don't you prove it?
Wait, it also doesn't matter.
This is just another example of having a meltdown over doing normal things like meeting with people or talking.
This is fun because I'm talking to Ben addressing his points and other people keep interrupting that.
To Ben specifically, I want you to concede that the Santhas people
are tagging this note needed account, which are a private group of note contributors,
which some are pro DeSantis, and that there are posts on there that have been submitted
that go against, that go that I guess cover for DeSantis from the left and the right.
I want you to concede that point just for the audience to hear.
I can't concede who else is tagging things.
It's a currently locked account.
If you lock your account, I wouldn't be able to know who followed you or tags it.
You can tag it anyway.
Anybody can create a Twitter account and then lock it and have people tag it.
I can't speak to who else is using it.
Why would it?
It's basically been a...
I can tell you for sure that the note needed account is not just about DeSantis.
And anybody can do the same thing.
You can have people tag Chief Trumpster on anything community notes that they won't
posted.
And then you can use it to say, hey, everybody, vote on this.
You can do the same thing right now.
But it doesn't work like that, does it, Ben, because essentially what happens is when,
let's say you, for example, go on Chief Trumpter's page and you want a community know something,
you will community note it.
And for...
Average person to check that committee note, they need to go through the community note section and scroll through it and no one's ever going to know.
That's not true. You can click on a tweet and see the pending tweets. You don't have to scroll through the community notes pending tweets.
Anytime you want to see if there's a note on something that you can vote on, just go to the tweet. And if you're in community notes, it'll say there are pending tweets.
If you're in community notes, Ben, you're not listening. Try and listen, bro.
I know you need to have...
It's on every tweet.
You don't need to go to the community notes panel.
You don't need to go to the community notes panel.
You don't talk to once.
Let somebody speak.
Like, you speak...
You literally speak for half an hour.
Don't let anybody interrupt.
And then as soon as someone talks, you...
That's exactly you.
This is what I have to deal with every day, bro.
Just FYI.
But continue.
That's not me.
Exactly.
That's you.
What you're talking about.
It's like I've got two Mario's on stage.
It's like I've got two Mario's on stage.
Right, so...
So look, the point is this, when someone creates a community note, you have to be part of the community notes.
And then what they do is, they then send it to their own people.
So let's say, for example, a dissentist person will create a community note.
And then they'll send it to their own people to upvoting.
That community note then becomes live because they basically game the...
No, no.
Now you need...
It needs votes from opponents.
Now you need Trump's people or a huge number of them to...
find out that this has happened and to base
and they need to organize essentially is what
because Max is right. This is the problem
they're failing because they need to organize Max is right
their team was more smarter.
They control the power.
Yeah.
So Trump's people do need to basically
consolidate power and fight back because
No, they need to join the media notes
and co-pending notes.
And they also need to
need to support a candidate who doesn't post
things.
No, no.
All Trump people need to do,
all Trump people need to do
I respond to join community notes and if they join community notes they can write a pending note on any note and then they can tell their friends.
We're talking about people who are not part of community notes. Why are you changing the narrative? I'm talking about people who are not part of the notes.
You won't be able to vote on it unless they were part of it whereas you guys can create one and send it up.
No, you misunderstand. Sully, Mario, I've got to explain to Sallie how this works.
The community notes voting page on any tweet is accessible by anyone.
I'm going to put on the Jumbotron a perfect example of this from today right now.
I'm going to my bookmarks to find it.
Where am I got it on?
I'm putting on the Jumbo.
I see it on the page.
You've got to scroll through.
It just has many posts.
I just put it on Jumbotron.
Post it.
Post it.
Post it.
Corey DeAngelis, who is posting about education.
He posted earlier today on Twitter.
The link to vote anyone who on Twitter can see it.
Anyone on Twitter can see Cori DiAngeles link to go vote on this Randy Weingarten education-related tweet.
Anyone can do that.
He posted that on a public tweet.
Anyone can click the link and do it.
So it's no different.
If you want people to vote on something, after you make a pending community note, all you do is you click to send, you click to copy the link.
and then anyone in the world can vote on it.
But there's a second key point.
No, no, no.
No, no, no.
Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, no, no.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
It's Ben.
Oh, thanks with that, guys.
Ben, um, listen, when you copy the link, what do you do with the link?
What do you mean when a person copies the link?
Anybody can, right?
Just I'm saying, look, rather than do your half an hour speech, let's have a conversation, right?
So when you...
He posted it like Corey did.
Oh, bro.
Oh, I give up, man.
Mario take over, man.
Can you make your point?
Can you make your point, Suli?
I'm listening.
Well, he literally, I was to talk for like half an hour of time.
Listen, Ben, right?
Try and have a conversation.
Hey, can I ask a question here?
Let me ask a question.
Well, before you ask a question here,
this is a great time to finally be able to speak
and tell everybody to put their fucking comments.
Tell me in the comments how fucking annoying Sully is.
Tell me how biased and annoying Suleiman is today.
In the comments, tell me how I'm back in trouble against all these Desantis operatives.
right on the bottom
Now you know who you
Wait
Can I say something
There's a
No you cannot say anything
Because I'm not done
Ask some questions
Do something
You know
Tell me what you think
Is sewing man wrong
Is he full of shit
Or is he right?
Do you have bar-ish?
Yeah, Shelley's wrong.
Sully's wrong as hell.
Just look at the notes.
Bro, right in the comments, I'm taking on all these DeSantis operations.
Chief, Kenashua,
Chief, before we go to, before we big, before we go to Millie and Caroline,
I'm not mentioning Justin, but Justin afterwards.
This is exhausting.
Yeah, I know, man.
Justin's got to get in.
Yeah, yeah.
Can I, can I, can I, Justin, do you mind if I ask Chief a quick question?
I'll give you the mic.
I don't know you to speak already.
Chief, there's a simple question.
I know you have, I know you have probably a million things you want to respond to Chief,
but the one thing I want to ask you is,
and I'm not saying that this proves all your points,
but is there proof that the scientists people,
not indicate that it's a possibility,
but actual proof,
That there's people that support DeSantis dominate community notes, Chief?
The point is enough of them are in that note needed that they flag things and they put it there
and that a campaign operative knows to tab a specific account and they found that account out of
nowhere.
It's a random private account run by a group of writers.
Some of the writers are pro-Dissantis by definition.
And we saw one of them pop up in that space yesterday, talking about that.
And they went on another space with some other writers or DeSantis people and complaining about that there also.
So to answer the question, they are indeed weaponizing it because I think that Ben made a mis-
So my point, moving away from Ben, there's no...
Hold on, hold on, Ben.
I don't want to get back to that debate.
So just your only question, Chief, is would it be fair to say there's indicators that show that Descentus people are likely...
have more influence than Trump supporters in community notes,
but there's no proof to show that they definitely have more influence or even control.
Is that a fair statement?
Again, it doesn't disprove anything.
Just curious to see where we stand, Chief?
Right now, I believe that from...
And I understand it's very hard to have proof on this point.
You don't have access to Twitter's backhand.
I think there are more, as right now, the more...
Maybe we should have access, and that's an important point you made, Mario.
Maybe we should access to every single person.
You really have...
You really... I don't know how...
I don't know how you said you ran businesses before.
I've no fucking idea how you did them.
But moving away to...
So, Judge...
No, no, listen.
What do you talk about, Mario?
Listen...
Because I'll give you an example.
You know, yesterday we had somebody from Community Notes, one of DeSantis operatives, from Community Notes.
He came up on my stage and he literally partook in extreme real defamation.
Now, why that's important is these are the type of people in Community Notes.
So I think there needs to be transparency as well.
I'm against Computing Notes in total.
But if you're going to have it, there needs to be transparency about who's in there and who's controlled.
controlling the narrative about what's truth and what's falsehood.
Are you in there, Sally?
Are you a community note writer, Sally?
Justin, Ben, Matt, let's go to Justin.
Justin, I'd love to get your thoughts because,
and try to be objective on your thoughts here because...
you know, is getting pretty argumentative.
Sure.
Where do you stand on this?
Sully made the point that somehow this is just akin to everything that happened before Elon took over
and that this was the same thing that happened in COVID beforehand.
Remember, in COVID beforehand, when they took down accounts,
when they noted accounts, it was government entities working in tandem with leftists within the Twitter sphere who were tagging you up.
These are other users tagging other users.
But beyond that point, let me ask you a question.
Because if this was a completely unfair battlefield, if this was like weaponized to the nth degree, you should be able to show the inverse.
That is, you should be able to demonstrate amply that there are multiple notes on DeSantis accounts that have not made it to the forefront.
And I don't think you can because we have shown again and again, it's not about the community going and tackling a Trump account or a pro-Trump account.
It's about the community tackling a lie, right?
Something that is completely false and wrong.
So if you could amply show me, if you could say, hey, here are 10 different tweets that should have been noted and they weren't.
And therefore, there's complete bias towards DeSantis.
I will concede your point here.
But other than that, I don't think you have the evidence.
And here's a question.
Your argument is so weak, bro.
Guys, this is the...
Ben, Ben, Ben.
Desantis has gotten community noted.
You can't say he hasn't.
Right.
Listen.
Listen.
Yeah, your argument is so weak.
Let me go come back on Justin.
Because Justin's argument is this.
And let me just spend to the people.
How weak Justin's argument is.
This is what he uses all the time.
His argument is the only reason why he had a problem in the prior regime for censorship is because the government was doing it.
But if it's not the government, he's cool with it.
That, oh, he has no issue with it.
How is community notes censorship?
This is just stupid.
You said that previously you had a problem because the government was noting it.
And now you don't have a problem.
Yes, because that's against my First Amendment right.
Yeah.
So you don't mind censorship or people noting people.
You're just issued someone.
This isn't censorship.
So the censorship would be pulling your tweet down and pulling your account down.
No, no.
It is a form of censorship.
I forcefully discredit them.
Okay.
Over this three hours, I have heard only one example of,
of a tweet that someone asserted should not have been community noted and that the community
was taken down.
Okay.
Okay, that's all I've heard.
Like one example.
We just,
whenever these situations happened,
you give extreme examples.
Let me go to Chris.
Chris is the CEO of Rumble.
He only provided an opinion
and then it got community noted.
So these are just large examples
to show what's happening.
Chris, let me go to you
because you're on stage
and if you can give us
kind of what happened with yours
because I was going to go to you about this before.
So you explain what happened in your tweet
and how it got community noted
and what your thoughts are on it.
So my tweet was very simple. I felt that community notes is going to eventually get
gamed the same way that Wikipedia gets gamed. It'll be hijacked and gamed by groups,
people that put a lot of money into it over a long period of time.
Ironically, that was community noted to defend the position of community notes.
The way I, you know, forcible intrusion onto my tweet,
which makes it look different than everyone else's tweet where community notes thinks they're correct.
and projecting an opinion on my tweet for an opinion that I had is actually a form of censorship.
It is no sense.
That's not free speech in any sense.
I need to have...
Hillary Clinton could say, for example, I believe Donald Trump is a Russian asset.
That's her opinion.
That would be community noted, right?
Right.
And so it's like it's, it is, is her opinion.
And I can see an absolute valid, completely defensible community note on that.
opinion of hers, right?
Well, to Chris's point,
what is this company?
Hold on,
Michael, Michael, Michael, hold on.
Go ahead, Chris.
I'm just going to let Chris respond.
Let Chris finish his,
what happened now?
I know Ben and Justin,
just let him finish his point
and then you guys can jump in.
Go ahead, Chris.
Yeah, when it comes to the,
when it comes to the political stuff,
like, I don't want to get involved in that.
I'm not going to look at specific tweets
with one president or candidate or whatnot.
Well, played, Chris.
I will tell, I will tell,
I will tell you that like any forcible intrusion on my tweet in a way that makes it look different than everybody else is, is inappropriate.
In my, in every sense of free speech, that is not free speech.
and that's the principle that I stick to.
And that's, that's, that's where,
that's everything that we put forward on Rumble.
Let me ask you a question, Chris.
Can I ask you Chris a quick question, guys?
Because I see Ben and Michael and a few others unmooting.
So Chris, I think you've articulated the point pretty well.
And your concerns with it.
But do you see, I don't know sure you saw the report that came out a few days ago,
I think in last 24 to 48 hours about the amount of, um,
How much Twitter is actually struggling from advertiser revenue since, you know, beginning the fight against censorship?
You've seen those numbers, Chris?
Yes, I have.
And this is something that you're touching on that's actually like the right question.
They are, if those reports are accurate, then that, you know, then there might need to be changes on the platform in order to.
to make that work for them.
Yeah, because I...
But that's the bigger question.
Exactly.
Chris, what...
You said they might be changes,
but changes from what...
I guess one of the big issues here is that a lot of people who seem to have concerns
about community notes,
you know, you said they need to be changes.
But right now, based on all of the information,
the lengthy documentation about community notes that exists,
what in it do you think is substandard,
or what in the documentation have you seen...
that you have actual concerns with what modification to the current formula
or what in the data that you've analyzed suggests a particular problem to make.
Go ahead, Chris. Go ahead, Chris.
Yeah, so when it comes to, when it comes to community notes, like there's, you've had Wikipedia, which is consensus-based. Community notes is also consensus-based that has like, it's slightly better than what Wikipedia has done. You have to have someone that you disagree with and it has to have a certain ratio, etc. in order to appear. Which makes it better than Wikipedia on that front. But on the transparency front, Wikipedia is far better than...
than community notes.
So it is,
you can kind of say it's like,
it's on an even playing field as Wikipedia,
just because of the lack of transparency,
but the better algorithm in terms of consensus.
But at the end of the day, these forms will get gamed and hijacked by people with a lot of money that have a lot of interests by interest groups, and they'll eventually get gamed and hijacked, in my opinion.
Hold on, Mike.
Go ahead, Nick.
Just to be clear, did you say community notes is a step below Wikipedia?
You're muted, Chris, yeah.
Oh, sorry. I believe it's a step above when it comes to consensus. It's a step below when it comes to transparency.
We don't know who's actually part of it and who's doing it. Whereas on on Wikipedia, you can actually see how they reach consensus.
The public can see how you reach consensus on Wikipedia. On Twitter, I cannot see how they reach consensus to put a note on my tweet.
Which is a point. Hold on. Guys, guys, guys, guys.
Excellent point. Which is a point you made as well, sully.
Okay.
And it's a valid, and it's a valid point.
So Chris, I think that...
These are valid points Chris is making.
Yeah, yeah.
I actually agree with it.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, I should probably call host to you, Chris.
Let me...
Hold on.
Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben.
We'll get to you, man.
Because I know Millie and Caroline's berating very patiently.
They haven't even interrupted ones.
So, Chris, what would you...
Knowing what you know and putting the businessman hat on...
what would you do in Elon's shoes?
And I know it's a very tough position to be in
and you don't have access to the information that Elon has.
But from what we have,
and I'm kind of kind of give a bit of overview for the audience,
Elon took over Twitter.
Twitter is highly censored platform,
similar to other social media platforms.
begins to unbinding counts like crazy.
I think Justin, you're one of them.
Chief, I think you're another.
Michael, I'm sure you're another.
And, you know, address, I'm surprised you didn't.
And then start addressing the whole shadow band.
He's being a community.
Okay, and start addressing the whole shadow binding aspect of it,
trying to bring transparency as much as possible.
But at the same time, taking that massive hit from advertisers
and what Sully loves to call the establishment,
but essentially it just advertisers.
So being in that position, what choices do you think Elon has?
You're asking the greatest question, and I think that's the real question.
I don't know what his financial position is.
I don't know how deep he's willing to go.
I know what I would do.
and we're doing that on Rumble.
And we wouldn't waver on allowing fact-checking coming on to Rumble.
We just, that's a hard line.
I rather take five years, build a parallel economy.
And the way I look at it is advertisers are not going to be able to sustain what they're doing.
You're seeing what's happening with Target.
You're seeing what's happening with,
Bud Light, eventually advertisers are going to have to move and not get involved into this
political stuff and they're going to end up moving.
And I'm of the kind of person that would want to wait that out and build something sustainable
rather than cave to the mob of advertisers.
And we've done that.
We've shut.
What does this conversation show us?
It shows us that community spaces is a terrain for political conflict, right?
Because there are competing interests who are trying to exert their will through the medium of community.
It's not just this benign community intervention, right?
to neutrally provide context because they're so benevolent and they want to make sure everybody's informed.
No, it's kind of a brute force contest of competing political interest.
Now, is that what community notes, quote-unquote, was purported to be from the outset?
I don't think so, but that's what it inevitably has turned into.
And in terms of Ben's question, it's like what modifications about you want to improve the system.
I argue that the system is fundamentally flawed to just be thrown out...
completely because I'm never going to endorse the idea that I have to...
She said real quick, Michael. I want to go back.
Yeah, yeah. I'm never going to have to endorse the idea that I have to...
contain the political opinions of somebody else on my post.
Like, they're free to put their own posts out,
but my post should be like the purview of me only,
rather than others' opinions getting smuggled in
because of algorithmic mobbics.
Michael, another thing, let me ask you another question, Mike.
No, before I asked the question,
sorry, sir, sir, Chris hasn't finished his statement,
and then Michael just jumped in.
And then also, Millie and Caroline just been waiting,
and haven't even jumped in once.
So I just want to give them the mic afterwards.
But Chris, just the question to you is going back to put it, you know, you gave an example
of what you're doing at Rumble.
And obviously the position, you know, the, what percentage of your revenues from advertisers
Chris, if you know what I'm asking?
So it's where we're obviously publicly traded. You can kind of see that, but the majority of revenues is coming from advertising. And obviously, you know, we're trying to build something on the revenue side that is more sustainable outside of like the typical advertisers that Twitter's chasing. So that's kind of been our approach.
and obviously you're gonna in order to grow that it's gonna take some time and I think we've done like a pretty tremendous job at Rumble in growing that and I look forward to kind of building out that economy where advertisers are not susceptible
we're not susceptible to advertisers and so what was the percentage if you don't want to share that's fine as well I know you're publicly traded so I can find it myself but is it possible I could
Yeah, I don't want to quote anything because I don't have it up the top.
But do you know the Rumble's revenue in, let's say this year or last year?
Yeah, it's all there.
I don't have the, like, off the top of my head, I can't.
Okay, sure.
So the point I wanted to make is, and obviously numbers would have made that point as well,
but the point I want to make is like Twitter is in a very different position.
So I want to kind of link it, because when he asks you what choices does Elon have,
and you kind of hinted it, I don't know how much money he has.
I think what you're hinting at is like putting more money into Twitter and becoming less and less dependent on advertisers.
which I don't know how feasible that is.
Now, I need to crunch some numbers and do some math.
But I think at least in the short term,
appeasing advertisers to a certain level
and then being patient with the rest of them to hopefully they come back,
while still gradually fighting for free speech and fighting censorship,
seems to be the best path forward,
because we know what his values are.
And I just, since we know his values,
Shouldn't we just test these experiments and understand that we're in a position that it will take us a decade or so to hopefully get to that goal of, I'm not say completely free censorship, but as little censorship as possible?
And then if that's the case, and I think all of you will say, yes, let's give it time and let's work towards that goal and gradually get there.
Then my next question will be like, isn't community notes one way to get there?
I understand the issues with it.
Like it's kind of an intrusion on your timeline.
But at the same time, it's an intrusion by the community that actually sees your tweets, and they're getting the opportunity to offer clarity to it.
Even if it might be biased or so, isn't that how decentralization works?
And decentralization is a process.
Nothing is decentralized from the get-go.
It becomes decentralized over time.
I know I've kind of made a lot of points together, Chris, but I hope you understand where I'm heading to.
I'm trying to kind of put myself in Elon's position as much as I can.
Yeah, there's different approaches that you can take.
And, you know, whatever approach that he takes and he communicates to the platform,
you know, it's his platform.
You can do whatever he chooses to do.
But, you know,
For me personally, and just like as a company, Rumble, the idea of appending notifications or, you know, notes or whatever you want to call it onto content is going to cause the polarization that you're seeing in this spaces chat.
And I don't think that's a, I think there's got to be better ways, but like that's not the way to do it because it's forcible intrusion on a tweet. And that's not the solution that's going to keep everyone happy. It's actually going to cause more polarization. And it's going to cause it. It's going to bring the issues that we already, we already face during COVID.
it. So that's just a stance
that I've taken. It's a hard
stance that I've taken for many, many years.
It's never changed. I'm opposed
to any of these types of fact-checking
because I don't think
you'll never appease everybody on it.
In fact, you're going to polarize a lot of people
And you're going to have a lot of people disagree.
So if it's to appease advertisers to get revenue,
then he communicates that.
That's his choice.
But, you know,
it's not something that I would advocate for as the CEO of Rumble.
Fair point.
Millie, I'd love to get,
and Caroline,
would love to get your thoughts on the discussion so far.
Because I kind of,
like,
the good points I'm seeing is that community notes is or will be weaponized.
I'm sure it is already in different ways.
Some people...
I'm not going to name who, but some people are saying the solution is to abolish community,
you know, so I think it's just too foolish, such an early stage, instead of working on it.
And then others are pointing out, you know, Chris kind of pointed out different flaws within the concept itself
and how it's being implemented as well.
Where do you stand on all this, Millie?
Yeah, so I think that it's a flawed model because basically community notes from what it sounds like,
it's done by the mob.
Right. So what you're essentially doing is you're allowing for mob rule and then you're actually giving the mob a false sense of authority by then being able to, you know, be underneath somebody's tweet and your average Twitter user is going to see that and think that it's coming from Twitter.
and that therefore it must be true and have authority in that.
On that point, sorry, on that point on the mob rule,
I'm interrupting just to ask you a question so you continue.
So I don't think it's too rude.
On the concept of mob rule, so mobs are kind of created behind a certain ideology.
And if you have social media platforms that allow information to spread so quickly,
you know, in our finance spaces when the banks were collapsing,
we're talking about the risks of that.
and the risk of fear around the bank leading to the destruction of a bank.
And I witnessed that when we were covering FTX as well back end of last year in the crypto space.
And any fear around an exchange will just lead to a run on those exchanges as well.
So my question to you is, when you have platforms like Twitter
and other social media platforms,
that will allow a handful of people that have the most reach
to essentially control the narrative.
And then let's say they all collude together
and come up with one story or one,
and essentially the algorithm really,
kind of if you come up with really sexy false stories,
it will get engagement, either people saying it's fake
and correcting you or people loving it
and sharing it and liking it.
So kind of the algorithms in general on social media platforms,
which is based on human psychology,
is attracted to dramatic stories even if they're untrue.
So doesn't that, aren't social media platforms in general kind of mob rule?
It's like ideologies could spread so fast and that's a similar problem to community notes.
Like mob rule is essentially decentralization.
It's essentially allowing us as a community to censor ourselves.
I'd love to get your thoughts.
I'm not sure if you know where I'm coming from, Millie,
but I'm just saying that the mob rule is inherit in social media platforms.
I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, you're now giving the mob rule a false sense of authority.
So when somebody is just tweeting and you have something going viral, it's not necessarily giving a false sense of authority or that it's been fact checked or verified.
And then that leaves it up to the viewer to then go and look into it themselves.
But to have a community note, it gives it a false sense of this has been verified or fact checked or that we're calling something out as being misinformation.
information when come to find out it's all being just it's being voted on via mob rule and mobs have been
known to commit many injustices and get many things wrong i i could only imagine if during the
salem witch trial days they had something like social media i'm sure women like
me would have been voted as witches and that would have been in the...
I was going to use that as an example.
I wanted to use that as an example, by the way, the witch hunts.
But I wanted to use that same example for the opposite argument.
I was going to use it as an example like how false information, false narratives could spread so quickly.
So, but then you use it in an interesting, you used the same argument that I wanted to use, but to make the same point, which kind of goes back is like...
Community notes and social media are kind of the same thing.
It's like a smaller version of social media.
Silly, do you know where we're heading with this?
You see how we're conflating both?
No, no.
It's going to say both sides have opinions,
and it's just groups of people with opinions
trying to push and exert their opinions
on other groups of people with opinions.
So there's no point in trying to do any of that.
Isn't that democracy?
I think you have to discuss.
describe yeah and democracy that's how it should be just in that's our argument it should be democracy
where we all just say what we're gonna say we can refute each other on a fair so so sorry when he say
what okay so silly when you say hold on democracy democracy could be weaponized as well sully so when you
saying no no it can it can but what i'm so marie that's not the point i'm making what i agree you can
but what i'm saying is i was using it from the way justin's perspective and for he was trying
to say it because he was using democracy incorrect by i didn't want to be pedantic like you and say look you used it
What it is is you've got a fair platform.
You can say what you want, Justin.
I can refute you.
I can say what I want.
You can refute me.
No problem.
When you start bringing community notes into it,
you want to use a weaponized system
because you're not strong enough to come after me.
So when you say weaponized, okay, no, no, when you say weaponized system.
So can anyone, let me dig into this.
I know you discussed it earlier,
but let's play your game.
Can anyone access community notes?
Unless you've been banned before suspended before which is a reason.
Yeah.
Anybody can rate a community.
Everybody can rate a community.
No, that's...
Okay.
Can you see like Ben's example on the top?
His example he put up was a note by someone called Corey and he put a Twitter link on there for to be able to rate it and then people are able to rate it.
Yeah, if someone like Corey does that, you can't.
But not everybody does that.
So essentially what really happens is, you know,
that link that Corey guy did?
Descenters people send it to their own people and get a huge amount.
So they're gaming.
So essentially if this is, if this is, if this is, if this is, to improve.
I don't get, yeah, Ben, but I don't clearly about this street to be honest.
But what I care about is conceptually, if this particular floor is fixed solely.
So then community knows becomes more democratized, more decentralized, the ability for anyone to participate.
Would theoretically, would you then be happy with the concept?
So Mario, even if they did that, even if they were transparent and showed us all the people who are on community note,
and they showed us who the up voters and the down voters, completely transparency.
Even then, Ben, I'm talking.
So even then, I would be against community notes because I don't think you need it.
People should be able to basically say what they want and get to be like to.
Ignore people.
So, but would you think Twitter needs it considering, do you think Twitter needs it considering the pressure they're facing financially?
No, they don't because look, when you've got a scenario, look at the previous system, it was used.
And we know what will happen.
If I was Trump, I would not come back on this platform because you know that dissentist people have control of community.
They're going to community knows.
Stop saying, you know, can we stop saying?
What does that mean?
That's so ridiculous.
Yeah, I know.
He just makes it.
He says it effective.
I just explained it just then.
If Trump comes, you guys are going to community notes.
But then, but can't Trump supporters?
No, no, here's the deal.
Stully, there's one solution to this whole thing.
It's to find someone who's old enough to vote to run the Trump Warroom Twitter account.
Because obviously they're not.
Okay.
So, so silly.
That's ridiculous.
So soon as an example, just yesterday, Mario, we had someone from the dissenters camp who is in community notes and was actually being defamatory on stage.
and he was going to get sued and then he basically ran off and hid his profile.
The point is when you're making it.
He made a defamatory statement on the...
And he made a defamatory statement on the stage on,
that's an example of the type of...
So silly, silly, silly.
But could you be surprised?
Would you...
The other day, John Cardillo that posted a picture of a Trump rally.
He did this maliciously.
This was a total lie.
Okay, posted a picture of Trump around and said half the room is, is empty.
Now, again, this is something, a picture that was taken before the rally was even close to starting, and that got community noted as well.
So, you know, the point kind of is, like, does this not seem to be going both sides?
It's definitely no going both sides.
Hold on. Has DeSantis ever been community noted?
Yes, in fact, when community wants it on to Ben.
On the first day of his campaign,
Yeah, because we keep our notes clean about how much money he raised.
And then there was another word.
All he does it lie.
Hold on, hold on.
Okay, let's not talk, let's not, let's not talk about who's.
The only reason why he's not getting community noted is because you control it.
Hold on, didn't he?
Hold on, he's only been community noted once in total.
Is that true, Justin?
No, no, no, no.
Oh, Ben, go ahead.
That should be pretty easy.
Why don't you guys do right to make the next hour?
and go through all his tweets and start community noting the things that you think are wrong.
Okay?
And this should be pretty simple.
Yeah, so, so, so so people can't Trump supporters.
What Justin said is completely right.
I agree with Justin.
This is a message to all Trump people.
What is stopping Trump supporters?
Right?
This is all this is a message from.
Hold on Nick.
Ask your question, Nick.
Justin's right.
No, let me finish my point, please.
Justin is right.
You're pulling your, you're pulling your band, but yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, this is a message.
But I want to know, what is stopping from supporters from rating communities?
I was going to ask the same question.
I was listening going to answer that.
Yeah, go ahead.
So, yeah, silly.
Like I said, look at my feed, bro.
You know that I'm not a DeSantis supporter.
Yeah, and I think, I think.
So, no, no, hold on.
you are yeah no which is because because he doesn't he doesn't because he's he's he's he's he's got
courage to not just stick by the you know doing what you do so he's saying what's
either popular or if he's a Trump supporter that means always protecting Trump in this
case I'm getting I'm getting a lot of hate for this from the dissentless people like
this isn't a
Yeah, exactly, from the Descentus people.
But let's answer the question that Nick asked.
Why do you think Trump people, so they answer?
It's a good question.
You don't think Trump people could do exactly what, quote-unquote,
desantis people are doing?
Is that just controlling it and then balancing it out again?
I'm going to answer the two aspects of the question.
So the first, I was going to answer that anyway.
So the first aspect of the question is this is actually a good point to all the Trump
spotters.
All of you should go and join community notes.
You should build a system like these guys have done and take control of community
notes like they have and then weaponize it against them and then they'll be on the other
side of the argument.
The second point is this.
The reason they're not able to do that is because they're not doing point number one.
If they did point number one, because what's actually happened is someone from Desantis's
campus, creating a community note, and then that link that Ben's put on the top, they're sending
it to the own people and they're all upboating it. Then that's queues the results.
I'll tell you the secret. I got the behind the scenes.
One person, one Trump supporter to submit a community note and anybody, even if they are a contributor
or not, can still rate that.
Community.
No, but then you need to...
Nick, you need to...
No, no, but then how do they know to rate it?
What will happen is,
because that community note won't go live.
You need to then send that community note
as a link to all your people.
So, yes, Trump people.
Create what these guys have done.
Create a system what these guys have done.
get control of
community notes
take it over
and then you've got the power
I agree
there's only one problem
there's one problem
one problem in your theory
sully
one big problem
we don't lie
it's gonna be hard
to community note us
uh go ahead
let's get
yeah let's let's let's get
chief to jump in
and then let's have
all sorts crush sully
I don't think he will today
but let's see
chief go ahead man
non contributors votes don't count
oh nice
so hold on chief
What? What did you say?
No, no, don't fall for his prey.
Don't fall for...
No, no, no.
You fell for his trap.
Great.
No, no, no.
I don't know what you're saying.
I can't hear him.
He's breaking up.
All right.
No, no, no.
Ben, just, just chief jumping.
Yeah.
Because it's...
I'm trying to clarify my point.
Nobody here is saying that Trump supporters can't do the same thing.
No one is saying that Trump voters can't be community notes.
Nobody's saying that...
Trump voters are being like, you know, are unable to apply and there are certain rules that apply for other people.
We're not saying that.
What we're saying is that as we see it right now, the Sanders operatives are pinging writers in a group note noted.
So can't, so can't, Chief, can't Trump supporters do the same thing, pinging each other like this?
Yes, but here's a thing.
When, when, yes, you can.
So the issue is, when I was referring to,
when people coordinate with other accounts
to go and manipulate a Twitter feature,
that is a issue with TOS.
You're not supposed to be coordinating with other accounts
to go and manipulate a Twitter feature.
Wait, wait, wait, what's that?
You're not supposed to be doing what?
You're not supposed to be coordinating.
If you look at the thread that I put to the JumboTron
at some point, there is, you can read the actual
TOS for this using multiple accounts to interact or coordinate with other people to manipulate account, tweets, or other Twitter features.
Community Notes is a Twitter feature.
So when you have a campaign that's openly coordinating with a group of writers when some of them are Protisantis.
So if someone, if someone were to say to you, hey, can you retweet my tweet? That's not allowed?
You're not supposed to do that.
Regardless of a community note, if I went out to 10 friends and say, hey, I just posted this great article.
I feel pretty good about it.
Would you mind retweeting it?
Is that not allowed?
Is that on Twitter or not?
On Twitter.
We all do this.
What are you talking about?
Well, here's the thing.
Here's my answer.
First, you're not supposed to do that.
That's not per T.
So if you're not supposed to do that, that's not per T.
But, Ben, before you answer, I'm trying to talk a different point.
I let you talk forever.
So, the response is very simple.
If it breaks TOS, it breaks TOS.
Regardless of who it doesn't.
Excuse me.
That's not what the TOS says.
It says you can't use multiple accounts.
It doesn't say you can't talk to multiple accounts.
That's.
See, here's the thing.
It's before it Ben interrupts again.
And this only finish my point.
Yeah.
So if Trump people, if a Trump campaign operative, like, let's say the Trump speech writer or something tags a Trump-note-needed Twitter account.
There's run by multiple, you know, users, multiple writers.
And some of them are pro-Trump people.
And they say, at Trump-note-needed, this is bad.
Or note this.
And then they say in their little private group of writers to...
view and vote that is when that is violating the t-l s and i would report that account as well and i would
call thank you i would call on ben to condemn anyone left right center that is coordinating to
manipulate a twitter uh feature called me notes i would call on him to condemn that and anyone who
does that because i i don't see anyone let me go to ben let me go to ben ben do you condemn it yes or no
yes or no only
Yes for no, only.
Anybody can ask people to retweet things, to like things.
You never get straightforward answers from detenters, people.
Trump people are always straightforward.
Yes for now.
Alls, all source.
I know you're putting him in a spot and Ben, just say yes.
It's not a bad thing to say.
Allsos, Chief, Chief, let me move away from you and Ben, if you're mine, Chief.
Yeah, go ahead.
Finish it off.
Go ahead, man, go ahead.
Sorry, Chief, leave that, you smashed him already.
Let Oscar score.
I want me to say yes, that's all I want me here.
He's not going to say he's a politician.
Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, yeah, of course, silly, silly,
because you always, when I tell you say yes or no, you always do that, don't you?
Also, go ahead, bro.
I always answer it.
I always answer.
Yeah, with a fucking essay, bro, with a poem.
Yeah, go ahead, Alsace.
And no, I just, you know, I did want to speak in defensive community.
It's not, look, I think we could all acknowledge that it can be manipulated for any,
just like any forum or any tool that might be existed that has good cause.
They can be manipulated, but, you know, I think community notes is a great thing.
First of all, the speed of it compared to normal, clinical fat trackers, regardless
of your opinions of them, right?
The community notes is a lot faster.
Yeah.
And that's kind of the beauty of Twitter.
It pulls a lot of resources.
And this is coming from somebody that my tweets have been used in community notes as a justification to highlight misinformation.
He's proven why.
He's proven what?
I'm sorry?
I was joking.
I just said you just proved why I shouldn't be trusted.
But I was joking.
Yeah, that's fine.
You and I can go back.
Just, just, you know, please continue.
Also, also continue.
Yeah.
so I just think it's a good tool because, you know, I, you know, recently I encountered it.
And I was very fortunate that people used the information I provided for their community.
Osos.
Osos.
Osos.
What do you think of Sleman's reckless comment of like, yeah, we should just remove it completely?
Yeah.
I mean, the CEO of Rumble agreed with me, bro.
The CEO of Rumble agreed based on his values.
But then when I pressed him on, and I'm sure he'd agree now,
when I press him, it was like, if you were in Elon's shoes,
what do you say?
I don't know how much Elon has.
Why did he say that?
That's because Twitter will not be able to financially get through.
Because so the issue they're saying is that just it's being weaponized.
It's the same issue with anything that's decentralized.
It's the issue with democracy.
It's just being weaponized.
Rumble can be weaponized.
Literally anything can be weaponized.
Any opinion can be weaponized.
Everything can be weaponized in the 21st century.
And it's also media.
No, no, but look, look, look, look, you know, when it comes to Twitter,
it's a written medium generally.
Obviously, it's pictures as well.
But what happens a lot of times in the right thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But when you're writing things,
a large part of what you're writing,
especially when, for example,
your journalist,
or whether it may be,
you rely on your credibility.
Now, if you get community noted,
your credibility gets shot,
no matter what you say.
Like, even when you've had people stayed,
I think, I think this is,
sorry,
let me correct on this one.
Let me correct you on this one.
It is, I think, for now,
but as people start to learn
that community notes is not like,
that 100% accurate fact checker that's always objective.
They're like, oh, it's actually context, it could be weaponized,
it's giving a, it's giving a, it's giving it will,
as it matures, it will no longer be that impact.
Like for me, when I did the tweet, no one,
I never had anyone sit there shitting on me
because I was community noted when we did that,
the leak from the sources.
You did actually.
Lots of people took the piss out of you.
Mario,
I don't know.
I don't know.
Also,
continue making your point.
Go ahead,
make your point.
this is a perfect example.
So when you posted,
Mario,
people were saying
you're not a credible person
and then a lot of us
have to prove the credibility.
Danish had to go,
We hold out to.
So that was an example of how committing those cameras.
No, bro, you look at a handful of haters.
If I may, if I may, as somebody who tries to do more,
and I think, you know, I try to be a little bit more.
At least I'm not in this basis, but my tweets more factual.
it's okay to make mistakes.
Just own it if you make mistakes.
I've made mistakes and I've owned it.
But, Suleiman, what I would say to you,
an example of community notes,
which would be perfect.
Like, let's say, you know,
somebody tweets something,
I'm just going to use it in a recent example.
Somebody, there was a video that was went out in Spanish
that was completely deliberately mistranslated.
right to english audience completely just not even
nearly what the person that the tweet said that was quoted
the translation was a blatant false not said community notes went out and said
you corrected it's like this is the issue let me let me make that issue silly
the issues that you're mentioning are accurate but what i'm trying to say is that the
problem of
false information being spread and going viral.
And there's an account I've always used,
Ian knows what I'm talking about.
There's a guy, the one that posted that double ganger,
like pretended that there was a clone of Zelensky, et cetera,
but it was just his bodyguard.
That was just one example.
They started also posting photos showing,
like pretending that the Ukraine were essentially
what they're implying with those fake photos
that the Ukraine war is all fake.
There's actually no war at all in Ukraine.
It's all being faked to get money sent there or something.
Something stupid like this.
information like this to spread and it could be a lot more sinister, it could be just a bank is bankrupt and the bank is not bankrupt.
For information like this to spread and community you're not to be there to give clarity,
that could be significantly more damaging than the concerns you're addressing.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
Danish, you've listened to.
Fuck, Danish, we both, I don't understand where, why is he being so stubborn about this?
I understand his concerns, but I made a very clear statement.
I agreed, Donish.
I fucking agreed with his concerns.
But I made a point that the damage of missing disinformation is significantly more than his concerns.
What he's concerned about Donish.
And he still disagrees.
Well, by the way, how's my audio?
Good, good.
Yeah.
So I think what Suleiman is saying is not completely untrue.
Agree.
And I think that, so a good example was when we...
when we found, when we were the people that broke the news around the debt ceiling,
and we had confirmed with a million sources, just because mainstream media did not confirm it,
doesn't mean it's not true. A good example of this, just want to kind of give that as a,
so if you have specific sources outside of mainstream media, so let's say,
five years ago before the Epstein stuff
was confirmed by mainstream media,
a bunch of people had a bunch of direct sources
and they'd been talking about it and talking about it.
And I wonder if community notes,
if it existed then,
then would community notes say that that was a lie?
And would people believe
that the people that are breaking this news
are lying. And you know that I try to sort of told the line on this, but community notes only make sense when somebody can actually point to sources that are available to everybody. And that's not always true. So community notes is actually the wrong mechanism for information that is not widely accepted. That's the issue.
That is the number one issue.
If you have direct sources,
I agree, I agree, Donish, but what's the solution?
Like, this is where we agree, and I think these are fair points.
Okay, we don't disagree there.
And we're mentioning flaws within community rules.
Great.
And probably the Twitter employees are like, yeah, no fucking shit, guys.
We know all this.
We're trying to fix it behind the scenes.
But my question then to you, Donish, is what is the solution?
Because Tully is like abolish it.
I don't think abolishing is the solution.
I think we, I think one thing that Suleiman said that is very true is that there should be transparency.
So the people that are standing, if people are putting their community noting,
it should be completely clear about who has access to community notes and who doesn't.
Also, I mean, to be fair, the algorithm is open source.
So there is transparency there.
But, you know, ultimately that's the step that you start with,
which is that they're a community note community.
needs to be transparent. I don't think that it should be gamified. I think people who do this,
like note needed, they should be blocked. That group should be blocked and everybody should be suspended.
That is, in my opinion, very clearly weaponized. I agree. I think so this is this is how you make
arguments and plausible arguments. Like look at look at, look at Sully Sili you know, you've got
concerns with the Fed yes, Sali for the Federal Reserve?
Mario, the problem is, if that was me making the exact same statement, you would have been crying.
No, you're not. I'll tell you, bro, you said abolish.
I made the exact same statement.
Yeah, you made that. I agree with some of the same as you made. I've said it before.
But what I disagree with and where you just go way off, like you have concerns with the CIA, yes?
It's not.
No, it's not way off.
This is what you don't understand Mario,
because you guys,
I don't know how to explain this.
Please let me finish because you're always...
Go ahead, bro.
Yeah, of course.
You're not speaking at all, bro.
This is space.
I apologize.
Go ahead.
No, no, but then...
Because you interrupt,
then it makes it look like I'm shouting.
So, look...
You've got an issue where you're thinking very short term, oh, guess what?
Desantis have taken control of community notes.
It's a problem.
For me, that's an issue right now.
But later, maybe a liberals might take away.
I said the same thing, bro.
I don't know how you're saying.
I'm short term.
I'll let you make finish your point.
Hold on.
I'll let you finish your point.
But just stop, don't know.
Just stop putting words.
I said exactly what you just said.
So you're saying like, I don't, I'm making a point that I didn't make, and you're saying, I'm wrong.
I made the exact point as you.
Like, now Descentus weaponizing it later.
Someone else could be, someone else could be weaponizing it.
So I agree with you there.
Continue.
Yeah.
So what does that mean?
That means that you're actually conceding that this can be weaponized.
And I agree with that.
So it will be weaponized in the future because we've got even more complex systems that have been weaponized.
It's inevitable.
It will inevitably be weaponized.
That's the whole point.
Do you believe, Sully, do you believe in a democracy?
So my point is this, Mario, I'm not, like, I want to answer this point first before you change, like, to some...
No, my point is like, I'll finish, I'll ask the whole question as you can.
Do you believe in the democracy?
You'll probably say, yes, my question is like, okay, democracy could be weaponized and are being weaponized.
Go ahead.
Right, okay.
So, my point is, when you know this is going to happen and some evil can come from it, we know, for example, when we had community checkers before, the whole COVID thing was weaponized.
And so a big thing like that happens again, and it's weaponized again.
I can't hear anything.
Oh Caroline, yeah, it's...
I can't, I'll...
Yeah, I'll fix it.
You lost that on hearing what I've got up there,
but it's all right in the video.
Yeah, go ahead.
So, so, my point is...
When you know that this can be weaponized and used for evil, for example, if we have another event like COVID again, you should stop.
It should not be there in the first place because for my issue with this, you need to protect society.
Can I push back?
Can I push back?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Go adunish.
Go ahead.
The most perist system in the world and it would still not be tenable to a thing.
Michael, let me just push back on some of the moment a little bit.
To other people's posts.
Yeah.
I mean, so it could be as a beautiful, clear window, but I don't see how that could inspire willingness, at least for me, to accept that I have to have other people's political opinion slapped onto my post, and I don't control the speech that I'm projecting out onto the platform.
Go ahead, Donish.
Well, first of all, there are ways to get around this.
And they've tried one way.
I think it needs to be made better.
One way that they've done this is that people that tend to disagree on that point,
they can look through your past posts and see what your view usually is.
And if you are against that person like DeSantis or Trump,
and in that situation, you do the opposite.
That actually gets upweighted.
So that's how they're doing it in the open source.
That's not how they're doing it, Dr. Janish, because I was looking at it.
But that, I mean, I read through the way that they explained it on their website.
I mean.
Yeah, yeah, I read that.
And what they were saying was they don't look at your profile, but what they do is they look at your activity.
Yeah, that's it.
They look at your passive votes.
So let me give you examples.
Yeah, yeah.
But look in this scenario.
So you had Republicans.
Here you've got DeSantis people and you've got Trump's people.
Their pass votes might have been the same because they were all pass voting against liberals, for example, or transgender issues or whatever it may be.
So now when they all are...
plus vote in the same issue,
they're going to be,
to get it,
so then their up vote is going to have
more of an impact.
So even that system
can be actually used against you.
But they can put stops against that.
So let me walk through.
Again, the idea here is,
do we agree,
that there needs to be some source of truth. Sure. I think there should be. I think that people can't just be right. You will never get advertisers.
If people can just post whatever vile shit they want all the time. It's just not a realistic world that we are living in.
We have to be thoughtful about the business of this. Elon is trying to build. And by the way, capitalism is the only way to solve these problems, in my opinion.
And so, you know, the point that, hold on, I just want to get to the main point, which is there is a solution to this.
If people try to quote unquote weaponize, you can figure out algorithmic ways of identifying that weaponization and then beat that.
And so again, this is one.
If something can be weaponized, doesn't make it bad.
It just means that it needs to be constantly improved and built upon.
But, Millie, go ahead.
Yeah, so just an idea that might help would be to add the ability for the people in general, not the community note people, but just the people on Twitter, to vote as to the accuracy of a community note.
And then if that votes, you know, the majority of the people say that that is an inaccurate community note, then that person that did the community vote authored it.
That person could get, you know, basically...
they could have that permission taken away.
They're no longer able to be part of community notes
if they get too many community notes wrong or inaccurate.
So I guess that would be a way of allowing for a little bit more checks and balance.
But then I also think that if you're the person who's behind a community note, it needs to be
publicly available information that this is the account that authored the community note so people could go see for themselves.
And then also they should be required to have resources and references of sites and information to back up their claim.
So it's not just some random thing of a community note that says,
The community notes said that this is incorrect, and we don't have any resource material to go look at.
We don't know who we do.
Millie, one pushback to that last comment.
Wouldn't that automatically skew the verification to people that could just say,
hey, the mainstream media says that this is not true.
COVID, example.
Example with the death ceiling.
Millie, don't you think that automatically skews towards what the – it's essentially
fact checkers on CNN then, right?
Right, right. No, and I hear you.
I don't like the community notes feature.
I'm just trying to throw out other ideas that might make it work.
But I think that the only way you could potentially
is if you allowed for the people to vote on whether or not it's accurate, right?
Because then if you had the COVID one,
and it said vaccines are safe and effective and there's nothing to worry about
the people that are, you know, paying attention to that tweet
could vote that this is inaccurate or this is not...
But what about something like, so I'm sorry, I just want to push back a little bit on.
And that person that authored the community note would lose their ability to continue doing community notes.
But that can be totally skewed though.
That can be totally skewed by like the average person.
Like you, a political candidate could go and say, hey, go and say the vaccines aren't, which by the way, it depends on when and what, right?
There's all these contacts that's missing.
That's what the community notes are supposed to fix.
Let me ask a question.
But it doesn't.
Oftentimes it's extremely general and it doesn't provide resource material articles.
And oftentimes it's biased articles.
So there goes the flaw in this entire thing and why I said that community notes is inherently flawed and there's no real point because there's always going to be a bias.
And then you're always going to have mob rule.
deciding on a community note and the mob gets it wrong.
But this is, but the question,
Millie,
but the question I have in that,
like I was going to ask that question to Sully,
is that Suli,
let me ask you a question.
Can you name me five countries?
Actually, let me reduce it to one.
Can you name me one country that's a free for all?
There's no decentralized system.
There's more centralized than anyone making their own choice
and running around freely that is operating and is functioning.
So look, Mario, the most free country is the United States and the UK.
And that's why we're fighting for these rights because we love them.
No, but I'm saying in the US...
The reason why the United States is the most free.
It's not because of democracy.
It's because we're a republic.
And it's because we respect the rights of the individual.
It's not because we allow mob rule.
That's not why we're a free country in America.
So...
We have to respect the individual right of that person to have free speech
and freedom of expression on Twitter.
Any other person can go tweet their own expression and ideas on their own Twitter account.
I agree with that point, but I'm just saying how is that being done?
How we allow people to have free speech?
How are we building the legal system?
How are we building the medical system?
We created democracy is what allows it all to function.
What allows people to have a free speech and operate?
Allow someone to pick up your rubbish.
allows hospitals to exist, allows businesses, allows regulators to make sure businesses operate
and don't engage in fraud or monopolistic behavior, allows the country to operate.
And democracy seems to have worked well.
You know, most people would prefer living in the US and in China, at least a whole different
debate, Michael, don't start.
But most people would like to live in a democracy, democratic countries.
People usually migrate into democratic countries.
So democracy works. Is it perfect?
Far from it.
All we do in this space is fucking complain about the different flaws within democracy.
And probably the democratic system we built allows us to do that.
So the point I'm making, the way I'm linking it to this silly, is that
you know, there is no complete decentralization.
So what you're saying is that Twitter should be completely decentralized.
Anyone could post whatever they want.
There should be no accountability.
And people should themselves determine what's true or not.
And we know how the algorithm is built.
So there's two ways of...
We're not a democracy in America.
We are a republic.
So that's the way our country was structured.
We don't have mob rule in America.
We allow for the individual to be protected.
As a republic, it goes back to my point.
I don't want to discuss the political system here in the U.S.,
but as a republic, there's elected representatives that make decisions on behalf of the people.
Okay. So what I'm saying is that it's not we don't make the decision.
Like we don't it's not like every single thing around around the US is voted by all the citizens of the country.
And same for other democratic countries.
Is that we've built out that system.
The point I'm trying to say is that community knows is that.
And then if you go to China, it's a lot more centralized power centralized within the Chinese Communist Party.
Twitter, the old Twitter is like China.
the new Twitter is somewhere similar to a democracy, similar to the US.
So before we had power of censorship within the offices, the closed offices with no visibility of Twitter headquarters.
And this is the same applies to other social media platforms now.
What we have now is people trying to replace...
That's true because one thing would agree, whether it's for advertisers or just in general for the better of the platform, better of humanity, some sort of system to fight misinformation, disinformation is needed.
What type of system should it be?
Well, we've moved to a much better system than before and much more democratic system than before, but it's not perfect.
And I think what we're doing here is highlighting the imperfections, but I don't think we should just jump to immediately abolishing.
Community notes like this is for guys well the reason why you listen guys another thing is I've never been community noted before so if after I get
That's because no one gives a shit about your content bro. His community notes has only forgot that that gets traction bro and none of your content gets traction
Don't be don't be don't be then tell your boys not the community not me all right what is true and what isn't
is because what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. talked about today with Elon Musk was the conflict in how Fox News and some of these big mainstream media networks, some of their biggest advertisers are pharmaceutical companies.
And then he was talking about how he had experienced how these big news companies were self-censoring stories pertaining to vaccines and other pharmaceutical products.
Exactly, Millie, Millie, let me ask a question.
Because their biggest advertisers would get upset with them.
So if Elon's doing the same thing and he's saying, well, my biggest advertisers want me to do these community notes, how is that in different?
They want them.
No, it's not exactly.
Excellent.
What I mean, excellent tone?
You are so fucking annoying.
Man, what do you mean, excellent point?
Do you just say?
So, number one, advertisers is not asking for community notes.
Advertisers are asking for complete censorship.
Pfizer's not like, hey, can you put community notes and let people decide what's true and what's not?
No, Pfizer's like, hey, block this content.
That's number one.
And that's what they've been doing the whole time.
Number two is like, exactly.
Have you got evidence of that?
Okay, you laughed.
I'm not going to ask you a question.
So my second point is, you're genuinely saying, you're genuinely saying, you're genuinely saying, you're genuinely saying that Twitter should say fuck you to investors.
How about this, Suli?
Perfect.
You go raise a few billion dollars so Elon could do that.
How does that sound?
When you do that, then come and tell us this is a solution.
Mario, you're missing the point.
You're missing the point.
This is what Millie is saying.
Don't put Millie.
Don't throw Millie under the bus.
Own up to your fucking words.
I was helping it out.
Okay, this is what I'm saying, right?
If your argument is that, look, we need to count out the investors or the advertiser,
whatever, maybe that's fine.
If Musk wants to do that, that's not a problem.
Don't lie to us and tell us this is all about free speech or this is all about everyone
being on an equal platform.
He did say, he did say it is about free speech, but at the same time, it is a, it is a, it is a,
no, this is what he does, Darnish.
I told them at the beginning of the space.
He's always binary.
Everything's black and white for him.
Sully, it's both.
He's trying to achieve free speech.
He's trying to achieve free speech.
By running a fucking business, not a charity.
But that's the point.
But that's a point.
You own?
No, no, but that's the point.
No, no.
Silemon, let me walk you through another approach to this, which is maybe, just maybe, he thinks that the best way to get to the truth is through discourse.
That's what the goal of community notes is, is that.
It's not discourse. Darnish, darnish.
If it's getting to the truth, I agree, the way to get to the truth is through discourse.
It should be an open platform.
Let's say you write something now.
I'm able to refue it.
If I write something, you're able to refute it.
But if you then go to community notes and weaponize it because your crew's got it,
and then you basically put a community note on my thing because you're not brave enough
Okay, I'm going to push back for a second, Silemon.
Sorry, I do want to push back because I want to give an example of something that came out that we found was really low quality evidence.
And I was able to have an educated conversation with Sileman in the background and explain to him about that.
And by the way, in the end, we didn't even agree.
But I wanted to give this as an example of what-
Bro, you're going to get refuted now.
Don't be bringing that up because I'm going to refute you so bad, bro.
Okay, okay, okay.
It was an article about COVID and its relation to a specific adverse event.
Oh, the blindness one?
Yeah.
The blind...
Oh, yeah, man.
You guys busted my balls.
It's like I'm the battlefield.
And then Suli and Dhanes just went off at each other.
That's before you were hosting the finance basis.
So Sully suddenly believes he's a professor, reads a report and makes a tweet.
He's a doctor now.
I'm going to do what my job is to read academic papers.
What are you talking about?
Okay, so makes it to me.
Let me give context for the audience.
Why are you triggering him, bro?
I was about to do it the right way.
So Sully does a tweet.
about COVID causing blindness. Now, obviously he wants engagement and look, the tweet is still on my
profile. I left it so he did an okay job. But then so silly on one line, it just made it sound
that everyone that took the vaccine is going to go blind. It's just a matter of time. And then
Dynus on the other hand, what it... That is big. I didn't say that. No, no, no, no, no,
listen. So I reviewed it. I looked at the...
He's a doctor. Danish is a doctor.
And I don't care if Dan She was a doctor.
I read the paper.
No, no, you have a complete right to review the article,
understand the article.
But the point that I was making was the actual opposite,
which was in the background,
I reached out to Shilliman, like a community note style,
and I said, hey, here's the full story.
And Solomon was like, oh, okay.
And then Solomon, you know, was willing to change the way it was written.
That's not true, bro.
You came back on me.
This is exactly true, Donish.
This is, it's not true.
You community noted him and saved me getting canceled with misinformation.
Right, listen.
Because the data says different than what is the purpose.
He didn't tell people the story.
So I wrote this article.
Don't worry about your fans,
just talk the truth, bro.
Don't worry about your fans so much right now.
No, I am.
I'm telling the truth.
Correct me if any of this that happened.
I wrote an article.
Mario had a panic attack because Dr. Darnish and a few other doctors were like,
oh my God, like, do not go against COVID, whatever it may be, right?
Mario has to have a panic attack.
You misunderstood the primary outcomes.
And that's happening.
No, no, I'll let you come back on it, Danish.
So Mario's like having a panic attack and was coming back to me.
Like, oh, this is what they're saying.
Then I kept smashing them, smashing them, smashing them.
But he did smash anyone.
It didn't smash anyone, bro.
I did, bro.
Did the portion, except for when you added an extra...
Can you know what you acknowledge?
I don't want to worry too much about this specific.
Well, the point that I was trying to make is that before somebody with a giant voice makes big comments,
it would be helpful for community notes to provide them with context and maybe they can correct their understanding of something.
So, actually, let me...
Let me...
I jump in for a second.
Yeah, go ahead, Caroline.
Go ahead, Caroline.
Yeah, go ahead, Caroline.
Thank you.
So the thing is, that is probably in theory, a good point.
In practice, that's not usually how it works out.
Now, if you reach out to someone via DM, that's
That's a different story.
But there's actually been a study on this very thing, looking at the impact of community notes on basically how people respond to being community noted.
And it is kind of the opposite of...
Can you share the study?
I've never heard of a study on community notes.
So that would be super helpful.
Sure.
There's a bunch.
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
No, it would be helpful.
Yeah.
Who did the...
Sorry, who did...
Before you continue the point,
I'm curious, who did those studies?
If you don't mind me sharing,
and I'll let you continue making your point.
This one, I think it might have been David Rand and that MIT group.
But I can find it and link it in the comments if that's okay.
But basically what they found was that...
people responded by getting defensive,
by actually engaging with lower quality information,
and retweeting more divisive,
what they called toxic content.
probably again because they felt like they were being attacked somewhat. And while I'm talking,
let me just address a couple of other things really quickly. I think the idea of community
notes is, you know, it's a nice idea, but I do think it's a relatively flawed concept. I don't think
it's biased. I think it's biased.
I think it's very vulnerable and susceptible to manipulation,
but anyone can manipulate it.
So I don't think it's that it's biased to one side or the other,
but I think it's highly susceptible to being manipulated.
And I agree with what Chris was saying about,
you know, it's also very susceptible to being gained by groups
who coordinate and decide to target specific users and specific topics.
And now, some of the other...
research looking at community notes has found things like in terms of of the selection,
you know, what gets, what tweets get selected to be fact checked or noted.
And one of the findings in a couple of studies is that it's actually contextual factors.
So things like the partisanship of the users that are more predictive of,
the judgments of whether a tweet is misleading and whether, you know, whether it needs a note,
that's more predictive of it than the actual content of the tweet itself.
So I think the selection process is really...
What to focus on here you know which tweets get selected and then also the selection process of the source material
Which also is often partisan and so we just kind of end up bouncing back and forth between
You know somebody sees a tweet and says oh well that needs context and but their selection of that tweet is driven on
often by partisan factors, and then their selection of the source material that they use is also driven by partisan factors.
So then somebody else is going to want to come behind them and provide context to their community note.
And, you know, it's kind of a never-ending.
But am I the only one here who honestly thinks that the problem with Twitter is not community notes, it's just misinformation?
Right.
I think
I think
I mean
we're really going to have an argument
I know, I know, I know.
It's like, it's like no one, no one does, also, it's like, Sully, and I'm going to, it's
silly fake news, that's silly doesn't give a fuck when people tweet shit that's completely
false.
They might harm people's reputation.
Hold on, where is Krasstine?
Where's Krassy?
Oh, he's gone.
But, okay, someone, whoever's beating up their mic, ease up on it.
So, so now, Sully, never do a space on all the false things being spread.
How about all the tweets about the Ukraine war that have never existed or these shootings that are
being faked or that the earth is flat.
Mario, you made it.
You made a salient point
So look
I mean you never made a salient point
You made a point
So look
You know when
You gave the example
The Creston scenes
So you know
A good way of dealing with that is
They can refute them
They can do a thread against them
They had access
Oh, what is the...
Okay, okay, okay, let's say, let's say, let's say, no, no, hold on.
Let's say, no, let's say, I don't know who said that.
Also, oh, yeah, I'll give you a mic in a second, AllSource.
Well, I say AllSource, someone does a whole thread on AllSource.
Allsauce.
Allsor's accounts gets barely any fucking engagement.
Barely anyone sees his tweets.
How can he refute this?
How can anyone see...
So let's say the thread, the thread gets,
the whole source gets five minutes.
Are you just...
Are you just...
Are you...
Wow.
Wow.
I mean, Caput Barter-Barris.
let's say the threat against all sorts gets 5 million impressions and then all sorts responds with 600 impressions
me and sully representing most of them what so so how can all source respond to these this information bro
no but that's the point if all source write something well enough or here
well enough.
Let's say he has
300 followers.
What I mean well enough?
What a stupid argument.
Let's see the example.
Look at the example.
You wrote a thread
previously which was full of misinformation
which was about 350.
What thread?
Yeah, I'm going to explain it.
You wrote a thread full of misinformation.
You had about 350,000 followers.
I think at that time I had about
You're talking about Andrew Tate?
Yeah, I refuse a day.
Yeah, this is one example.
But, Silly, do you really expect someone?
Silly, Silly, Sully, Sully, do you expect?
Do you expect...
Silly, Silly, Sully, that's a stupid argument.
You're saying...
People get bullied online all the time.
This is so stupid, man.
Yeah, like, this is ridiculous.
You're saying someone like you...
Like, you just had one because all your fucking followers were just Tate lovers.
That was it.
And...
And if you had, and if you had, okay, okay, let's say, okay, you got, it worked with Tate, okay, it worked with Tate because no one else was supporting Tate.
It worked for whatever reason it worked because you, you know, your, your content was not that great back then.
I'm not taking this as a jab.
I genuinely mean it.
But forget it.
Okay, bro, you're proud of you.
I'm proud of you.
Back to the point, someone with 200 followers are going to refute a thread with false information by someone that has 5 million followers?
I did that.
I did that.
There's anomalies.
What do you mean
Medi Hassan?
This is an anomaly.
In general,
that's not going to be the case.
What if someone...
I'm an anomaly.
Yes, you are an anomaly.
Bro,
you became a fucking co-hast of my show.
I don't know how the hell you did it.
Yes, you're an anomaly.
Going back to the point,
let's say someone's not even on Twitter.
Let's go with Hunter Biden.
Because,
Because he's not even on Twitter.
I know that because I remember he came on my show.
He came on my show.
Everyone went crazy and deleted it within like minutes.
And right after the space he deleted this account, literally within minutes.
But my point is, look, look, I'm going to wrap the space.
I'm going to do our normal subscriber-only spaces.
Because I'm really pissed off at your, a lot of the points you made today, Sully.
Like that was just fucking ridiculous.
Like these...
You make some good points, but then you just make it no final comment.
No, no, you don't deserve the final comment.
I'm going to give, I'm going to give, let me give someone with logic.
Also, go ahead, give us.
Can I provide a logical argument against community notes really quick?
Is that okay?
Yes, go.
So, so...
So, so...
Solly, let her speak.
The problem is to Millie.
Listen, man.
Just because she's a woman, bro, stop it.
Go ahead, Millie.
Obviously, like...
Don't make the joke.
Don't make a joke.
I'm just joking.
Don't do that.
What the hell's wrong with you?
That was a joke.
Yeah, exactly.
So Sully has a goal to get cancelled.
Go add, Millie.
Oh, for fuck, shut the hell.
Okay, so...
The problem with community notes is that you're essentially elevating a comment.
And in that, there's a natural bias because there's other comments that are not being elevated to essentially put a community note on somebody else's tweet.
Right.
So in logic, this is what leads to what's called an infinite regress.
So there's always going to be another community note to try to challenge or fact-checked the previous community note.
So in order for it to actually be fair, you would have to allow infinite community notes to be able to refute each consecutive community note that might have inherent bias in it.
Therefore...
it's what's called an infinite regress.
And I think that's why some people are arguing
that this community notes idea is inherently flawed.
Yeah, and I think the flaws in community notes
I think most of us agree on them.
It's just whether the solutions to abolish them or not abolish them.
Let me wrap up the space.
Let me co-hoast Suleiman so he gets a, he's doing a tally.
So whenever I remove Sleman from...
I want you to know, let's second, Mario, Mario.
What you gotta know is I just got dropped there.
Because I'm fighting for the truth.
Because I'm fighting against censorship.
You're asking to be dropped again.
You're asking to be dropped again.
I'll get censored.
This is what we're dealing with.
I didn't, I didn't.
Go, go, go.
You have a thing against women.
No, no.
It's not because it's not because I'm trying to get you enough to cancel yourself.
Yeah, it's not because of that.
Nick, Nick, Nick, not all of us would be vanilla like you,
pretending to play in all sides, bro.
My God.
We say what we believe.
I'm gonna do it. Look, I'm gonna do this is a shit.
Look, guys, this is a recorded space.
Yeah, this is a recorded space.
I'll do the, I'm gonna go just for the audience.
We'll do the unrecorded spaces for subscribers.
Just, do you want to get removed?
This won't count on your tally, bro.
Exactly.
So I'll do the unrecorded.
Bro.
Guys, just pay Mario a dollar.
That's it.
Because it goes to...
You can listen to Swayman say all the most sexist...
It goes to...
It goes to charity.
I might that charity could be for human rights
based on all the shit you're doing.
I could do it into a fund.
That's fun...
The fund to financially back to layman.
No, bro.
Women's right.
I don't think we need it for women's right.
We need it more for Selimand getting cancelled.
See what I mean.
See what I mean.
This sexist panel is all about women's rights.
Bro, if I were a movie, you'll lose your tally.
Sully, last morning, bro.
There are more men on this panel than there are women.
What are you talking about Soleimai?
That is a man.
That is a man.
That is the amount of the number of people on the panel.
We're talking about these guys.
You just almost canceled yourself.
You're welcome.
Oh my God.
He almost just canceled yourself again.
I have to have a talk with him.
He gets too excited.
He's been getting excited.
It's been going on for like two weeks,
which is good because we're seeing the real silly
and he's such a passionate speaker.
But he just gets too excited.
He forgets that he's on recorded spaces
and he's under a microscope.
There's like a whole group of people.
Let's go into the unrecorded space, everyone.
I'm going to kick it off now.
We'll see you all there.
