give us a minute while we set the room here
If you're down there, accept the invite, my friend.
Hey MC, what's up, how you doing this morning?
Just me flying solo up here.
Can I get some thumbs up in the audience if you guys could hear me?
Oh, you were talking to me and you said AM.
Yeah, no, I'm just, uh, just hanging out for a second.
Hope everyone's having an amazing Friday or very early Saturday morning.
If you're hanging out with us from Singapore 2 AM, um, we're going to be
talking all about L ones today.
We've got a Nibiru who just hopped up Nibiru chain, who is the reason
that we're all here today.
So give him a like, give him a follow.
We will start getting into it.
Um, it, you know, I've done a couple of shows in the last week on L ones
and this cycle, you know, it's, it's been hard to pin a true narrative down in this
cycle, but you know, obviously we've been talking a lot about, a lot more about
meme coins than we probably all would, would like, but it isn't, we are having
Uh, but what, what I'm kind of seeing, you know, in our, in some of our data
at lunar crush as well is every time there's a little break in memes, there's
a, there's a nice push in L ones.
Um, and so I think that there's going to be a lot that we can talk about today
with what, what is this kind of next narrative and, you know, even for maybe
some people in the audience, what's the difference between an L one and an L two?
Um, so really excited to get this started.
Nibiru, Nibiru chain, who's behind the handle there?
Um, glad to be here today.
Um, could you please grant unique in Jonathan speaking?
Hey guys, thanks for having us.
You have myself and then you also have a unique here.
I think he's still a listener.
All right, let's, let's kick this thing off.
Um, super excited today to talk about L ones.
I'm your host, Joe Bazzani, CEO, co-founder of lunar crush.
Thanks Mario for having me in the host today.
Really excited to have the beer chain and have this, this great group
of speakers up here to talk about L ones.
And maybe, you know, Jonathan are unique.
If you guys want to kick us off a little bit, what are you
seeing in the L one space right now?
Like, you know, we talk about it in crypto all the time, like base layer.
We talk about L two, you know, UTXO blockchains, public blockchains.
There's a lot of nomenclature that we use, but maybe you can
give us a little spin on, you know, what's the difference between
like an L one and L two, because that's kind of what we're
talking about in this cycle.
So I guess we'll, the classic example is the ethL twos.
So focusing on those, put simply, you basically can do a bit of a
trade-off in decentralization to get a lot of benefits in terms
of the throughput and performance.
So that helps any theorems case address a lot of the issues with not
being able to settle as many transactions.
And then also with having a lot lower gas.
So it's essentially there's a strategy to scale the L one.
Can you guys talk a little bit about the, the den Kuhn update that
Um, cause I think some people were, I think a little confused, you
know, it was probably the largest update in the last year, but some
people were thinking, Oh, like a theorem gas fees are now going
Um, but I don't think that's the case.
I think it was more about the L twos and the gas fees there.
Uh, but maybe you can give us just a quick insight into like, what was
that update and what did it change?
So I don't know the specifics on the update, but you are correct.
I didn't see much of a change in the L one fees, but across like, you
know, base optimism, arbitrum, everything like that, you did see the
gas fees decrease like 99% or even further.
So sometimes it was a cent or even lower than one cent per transaction.
And what do you guys think?
I mean, you know, Jonathan, you hop into or any of the speakers, what, what
do you think the strategy is there to, to spend a lot of time and effort
from the Ethereum side on providing an update that doesn't actually
impact the fee side for them, but impacts the fee side for maybe, you
know, what could be considered competing chains.
I think usually people kind of, if you want to say like culturally
associate the ethal twos as almost like part of Ethereum though.
So I don't know if I look at it as a them as competitors, but yeah, I
think that's mostly the, the argument is it's maybe a move in this
direction of depending more on L twos and maybe bringing more TVL
and usage over to L twos from L one.
Does anyone else have a take on that?
Is it, is it a rising tide is lifting all boats and more usage on the L twos.
It's also providing usage on, you know, the, the kind of like settlement
I'll have something to say in a bit guys.
Just give me a few minutes.
No, no one's got a competing view case on that one.
No, look, look, a bit worth him is trying to, she was trying to scale his
business through layer two.
Anyway, uh, essentially anyone that's built on top of Ethereum and it's a
good way to go because it's essentially B2B in, in, uh, crypto if they
utilize and all their layer twos.
So there's not much really to say there, but I think might've been a
bit of a waste of effort.
They should have concentrated on the main gas fees that's affecting
everyone, but you can't get everything in this life.
Yeah, I would think that they would want to focus, you know, they could
make a huge dent in having, you know, the, the gas fees on Ethereum go
down, but at the same time, I think there is some competitive landscape
there of higher gas fees might be good, right?
Obviously it's good for, you know, people that are staking and it, you
know, it has so much adoption already that that's maybe the angle they're
thinking of, you know, Hey, we, we have lock-in and you know, people
can pull even more value out of the L1s and the L2s that they're
building, you know, that that's part of it.
Um, so we should, we shall see.
But remember, like, um, for everyone that's in that, an investor, right?
Everyone sees the Ethereum chain as being, you know, this environment
where only people with money go there and, and there's not as many
They want to maintain that type of, uh, ethos where everyone just goes
to Ethereum, they've got a bunch of money.
They know that the only ones are going to invest there.
And make sense in a way, if you can afford it, go on the firm.
If you can't, you've got BSE, you've got a polygon, you've got all these other
chains, you know, they can go to, uh, arbitrary.
Question, I guess, for the other speakers, why, why do you guys think given the
trade-offs that you get or advantages you get from using that L2s, they
haven't like absorbed more of the L1 usage and liquidity.
Because they're decently large compared to certain Alta ones, but compared
to the Ethereum L1, they're still like a lot smaller.
I think it has something to do partially with the first move advantage
and the credibility of a project like Ethereum being so long already around
and then coming new players in into the space that are building on Ethereum.
Maybe even create something better than Ethereum on Ethereum, but there's just
not the same trust factor that people have that they're associating already
Trust, you know, even though we're, we're building everything and, you know,
we talk about decentralization, we talk about everything being trustless.
Trust actually has, I think, a huge impact on where people transact, you know, even
thinking about DEXs that are out there.
And, you know, I think it's a, it's a UX issue in Web3 around wallets, right?
Like it's very difficult to, you know, take, you know, it's basically like
connecting your bank account up to every single DAP that I want to interact with.
And then like, sure, there's, sure you could have a wallet that has, you know,
just a little bit of gas in it on whatever chain that you're, you're, you're
on, but then it's no, I got to bridge over to this one to use this DAP bridge
over to this one to use that DAP.
It's like, I think that there's a, like, you know, you don't even want to
connect up your wallet to anything unless you trust it a ton.
And so I think it's like the, that first mover advantage is a huge, has a
huge impact on just TBL over on Ethereum.
You know, it's, it kind of seems like in crypto, if you just, whoever kind of
like survives the longest, like every day that they survive, they get like
a little bit more trust and it just kind of compounds and just kind of builds on
it, but that being said, it doesn't mean that there's not disruption that can
happen. You know, there was like a, you know, there was a big launch of NFTs
over on Polygon, you know, on the last cycle.
And they had deals with Reddit and Starbucks and some other people.
And so it's, I think that there's potential for community to grow on other
ones, and it's a lot of excitement at the beginning of these things, but
then it's, you know, can you keep the TVL?
Can you keep the utility?
You know, are there enough people staking and mining to where there's enough
So it's, it's tough, but, you know, like the question back to you guys a little
bit as well is, you know, it seems like in this cycle already, you know, here
we are a decade, over a decade into Bitcoin, you know, coming up on
potentially a decade into Ethereum.
And, you know, everyone's looking for the next kind of killer app in crypto
to take us to this kind of like 1 billion users.
And here we are, you know, we're still like launching L1, L2 building
Is it just, are we just that early still in the industry here?
And like, is Ethereum not good enough?
And I'd love to hear your guys take on that.
Yes, definitely we're early because I remember scalability is an issue.
Essentially, if everyone was to come into crypto right now from the retail
world, we would be screwed.
We can't, we can't handle it.
So no matter what anyone says, it's not possible to, to, to go this quick.
So we've got, well, I think next few cycles, that's when we're going to
see a bit of stretchy, sort of like how Coinbase with a little bit of
push, it just went down, right?
You can imagine how other networks will feel, especially when they're
new at the scene, but not as scalable as web two products.
Then yes, Ethereum may be good in some instances, but if we got everyone
to come into the market, right, this instance, I don't think we're ready.
If anyone can prove me wrong, go ahead.
Yeah, there's a bit of that, um, you know, blockchains are sort of cities
and allergies that people use where, you know, I think there's an emphasis
on community building, right?
So, uh, each blockchain in itself might eventually gravitate towards different
industries or use cases that emulate things in web two, and then, you
know, it's just, it's kind of how like DAOs have a distinct, uh, cultural
So, uh, you know, Avalanche tends to be a bit more institutional.
They seem to be going after the KKR or JP Morgan's of the worlds.
Um, but they, you know, they're also making a push in meme coins as well,
which is what's topical now, but, uh, Solana has made a push in gaming.
They, they originally had much more DeFi exposure with, with the prior
PDF and, um, and Alameda.
But, um, I think as a layer one, it's almost like people might, there will
organically have an industry that'll come to be a focus within your, within
your version, within your ecosystem.
And that'll come from the first couple that a couple of projects
So for example, we have coded estates.
We have a couple of native dApps built ourselves that are a perps,
Sam, Emma's body, I'm stable coin.
That sets the infra very nicely for traditional defy, right?
Uh, coded estate is on chain property.
They, they essentially take property.
They represent an NFT fractionalize it.
And then you can trade spot for that.
And they're trying to work on this ability to do perps, which is
enabled by an oracle module on our chain.
So when we have coded estate on our chain discussions with ecosystem
projects, similar to themselves.
So other RWAs become much more easier.
It's it's, um, I think when you think of like some of the cities within
the United States, like, uh, how does Boston become more asset management
based New York's more fashion capital.
It's where finance sits, San Francisco's where tech, I think, you know,
a couple of just major institutions just go eventually just move there and
eventually they all move together and it's easier to all be together in a hub.
And that's how, how I sort of think of the layer ones where, you know,
eventually we'll just gravitate towards different communities together.
And I forgot who was mentioning it earlier, right?
We don't have the, the throughput to support everything in the world.
If you believe in the blockchain.
Vision utopia for, you know, healthcare, real estate, basically any vertical,
you can think emulated web two brought over to web three.
Um, I think in the short term, you'll have that focused on, focus on organically
building a community in a niche, but at the same time being nimble enough to
pivot to any sort of the market narratives and trends.
So that's why you see everyone also being nimble enough to
pivot to the meme coin trends.
Um, but you want to be general purpose enough because if you, if you look
at some of the prior, you know, sweet started gaming focused, I think
Aptos originally wanted to be a, I think they wanted to be a bit more vertically
focused, but I think Andreessen convinced them to, to be more general purpose.
If you look at, say they were, you know, originally DeFi focused and now
they're more general purpose, they, they onboarded gaming and some other projects.
So you can already see that, that trend at the beginning.
And I think this sort of happens as when layer ones go into the
fundraising discussions for VCs, the continuous question you always get
is like, how are you differentiated?
And sometimes the inclination is just like, okay, you know, we're
differentiated because we focus on a different go to market and
Um, but over time you sort of realize if you, if you, if you make your
vertical too tiny at the beginning, you're just eating into your own tan.
So that doesn't make a ton of sense.
The, the strategic way that, you know, when you think of each individual
layer one perspective, it's like, okay, I'm not going to verticalize myself.
So I'm going to be all become general purpose.
Then from the outsider's perspective, everyone looks the same.
Um, so then there's a lack of differentiation.
So it's, it's, it's interesting how it happened, but it also sort of makes sense.
So the only thing I want to really, we're talking about layer ones, um,
my, like, you know, uh, Joe made a good point about, you know, why focus on
And this is an important question for everyone.
And, you know, I see what they're trying to do is just to streamline, you know,
the network and then how they interact with other, you know, layer twos.
But the biggest thing that is, is it called Denkin?
I forgot what it's called.
Um, but I think their focus may focus and it's not going to be just a theorem.
Everyone's going to, any layer one is going to focus mostly on the, on the
scalability side, because remember how slow things are at the moment.
And you saw the cycle that when, when they hit its peak, these were going to $300,
$400, $500 because of, not because you know, because the, not because of the
technology that we're using essentially that the network wasn't ready for,
So now what they're saying is we are ready as a layer one and we
should be able to handle it.
So I think what they, this layer, this, this upgrade is going to kind of help
in essence for an ETH trade, like myself, I use the platform quite a lot.
So they're going to have, they're going to have edge.
I think this time around, if there's no floors, obviously we haven't seen
any high volume of need because it's been for long, I'll take in most of the
hit, but we shall see future is near.
But yeah, I mean, Jonathan, to actually kind of continue your thought
process, cause I think it's really, it's really interesting to think about the
building blocks of an ecosystem and where you need to start.
And I think it might be, you know, confusing to a lot of people to think,
you know, Hey, why would you, you know, everything's about trading at
And DeFi, but if you don't have those building blocks and liquidity and
lending and borrowing happening and, and market volume and transactions,
people aren't going to just come built, right?
You need to kind of drive that, that narrative at the beginning.
And then like you're saying, it's like, maybe you kind of pick a vertical, but
you know, it sounds like the, the, you know, the more agnostic take on
something is better because like you're saying like, Hey, we're going to be
this region and we're going to be a little bit, maybe we have more trading
apps being built because we've got higher throughput here or we're a little
bit faster and maybe someone else is, you know, building something a little bit
slower, so maybe you could just talk a little bit about like, what are like
the stages and building blocks that are ultra important to get something
Yeah, it's interesting that we bring this up because, um, a lot of times
people focused on, I think TVL or dApps integrated right off the get go.
But you have to think about layer ones from this bull markets generation is very
different from layer ones from the prior generation, right?
So the slauna avalanches and years of the world, they launched last bull cycle.
They've had like a number of years to build up ecosystem projects.
They have the number of years that community built.
But when you think of the life cycle of the layer one, it's
generally starts with marketing, right?
So I think one example I like to use is how we're approaching regional
expansion in APAC right now, right?
So, um, we want to originally get PR and deep dive research in each of the
local languages, then you kind of want to interact with KOLs and influencers to
maybe amplify that marketing impact in that local region, and then that inbound
allows you to get more, that marketing presence allows you to have more
inbounds from, uh, from ecosystem project.
I want to build on you, which then makes those discussions more easier.
And then it kickstarts this fly wheel of you have more discussions that allows
you to announce more marketing partnerships, which then allow you to
increase your own market cap, which then makes, you know, that the
So initially at the beginning, I think, you know, some, sometimes people
look at polygon in his earlier days, and they were just announcing a bunch
of different projects or some of layer ones kind of just announce a bunch
of names, but you know, they're not focused on, maybe not necessarily
the highest quality projects.
And I think that's totally okay, at least for a layer one at the beginning,
cause you're building that community presence, that marketing, and it's
not until later on that you start to notice TVL starts to build up and
then TVL becomes, uh, typically fragment not, not fragmented, but
actually largely between five to six different protocols.
So if you look at Ethereum, the TVL is mostly on five to six different protocols.
So then you kind of have to pick up your highlight ecosystem projects
later down the road, figure out how to support them.
Um, and those will be the main sort of use cases at the end of the day.
But I don't know if that answers the original question, but that's, uh,
how we sort of look at like the, the layer one development lifecycle for reference,
but yeah, no, I think we're getting down the path here for sure.
So, uh, so what I want to do after this conversation is like, uh, development
on L one, L two L L X blockchain is at the end, um, always, always needs to
rely on, on a couple of things and basically on one.
So the success of every L1 blockchain is at the end driven by, uh, the amount
of projects that are developing.
The projects are attracting users and users are executing transactions because
this whole ecosystem, as we all know, uh, needs to, uh, attract, uh,
transactions, users projects, which are generating, uh, volumes and those
volumes are then being, um, a reward or the fees are being a reward for
that, uh, for the validators and for, for the people that are basically building
the blockchain to be decentralized at the end.
And when I saw development of like many, many different blockchains, the
trend that I'm seeing right now is, uh, the trend that has been also
mentioned today, so, uh, they were focusing on specific areas on
specific problems of the market.
And the second, uh, is that they were trying to, uh, focus on being, um, within
this modular blockchain development trends to be one of the pieces of the
puzzles, like to focus on speed, to focus on security, to focus on different things.
And I believe that the next interesting thing we're going to see, we will
see different blockchains combined together that are going to bring, uh,
and that are going to bring, um, solutions, uh, for different, for
various of different industries and the virus of different problems.
Like, of course, DeFi and entertainment and the major players in, in, in, in
that area, because entertainment is always bringing users like web free
gaming, uh, and, and, uh, and this kind of thing like meme coins as well.
Uh, and, uh, DeFi, because it's, uh, about money and about profitability at
the end, but I believe we will see much more.
I saw already, uh, one of the big four companies as we're speaking and what
they were trying to build and combine a couple of blockchains together to
solve different problems.
And they were focusing on the energy sector and, uh, replacing of the
energy between different energy operators.
And this was at the big four company that was working on that.
So I believe that in the future, we'll see this kind of, uh, approach.
And that might be interesting for, uh, for all of us, um, to approach also
this kind of companies to, to work with the institutional great, uh, businesses
because they can provide a lot of traction and a lot of volumes as well.
Uh, because they are, you know, providing solutions for traditional market where
we have majority of users and majority of clients at the end, after all.
So, so, um, that's, that's, that's my view that the next couple of years.
But Paul, like when you, when you say, when you say it's all about the
users and the apps, I would say like, well, what's your favorite, like
Cardano wallet and what's your favorite polka dot DAP?
Like, and that's, I just named $40 billion in market cap.
But, but I think are going to be for us.
Like, uh, Ethereum, uh, the trust that you're in blockchain, for example,
as for now is because they are the longer they are on the market, the
blockchain that is, uh, for the longest time on the market.
So there was a big trust about the security because never, they never have
been hugged, there was like big confidence.
That's why they usually serve as a security provider for L2s because
Sorry, I have been disconnected for a second.
Yeah, I got, I got, uh, so by my wife, she was calling to me right now.
So it got me off for a sec.
So, so, um, but I believe that there are a lot of problems as we all know,
the prices, the gas prices and fees on, on Ethereum are insane.
I was just paying like 50 bucks to send some couple of, of, of, uh, tokens
from, from, uh, one wallet to another.
Um, uh, but, but, uh, but I believe that like different problems are going
to be solved in the future by those modular blockchains and modular
approach in, in that space.
And I see this like very often right now, uh, that, that, uh, different
organizations are trying to do something like that and go into that direction.
I believe that that's going to be, um, a future and we will have, for example,
for a storage layer, we will have a blockchain that will focus only
solely on the storage, like five quid or something, and we will have different
solutions like that for different problems.
And then we will combine different ones together to, to, you know, solve, uh,
a very specific problems and, and we will not only rely on one ultimate
solution that will solve everything.
this does transition well into, I think you guys were kind of getting at this,
but there's a lot of info that's built out right now and then
getting to actual uses, right?
So I think what had happened during the bear market was no one wanted
to invest in actual consumer products.
So all the VCs just dump their money into and for projects.
And then, you know, there's a bit of this, what, what gets us to onboarding
the next generation of users that will actually want to use the product.
And I think there's a, there's, there's the classic innovations that people
always go through, which is the throughput innovations, like the TPS numbers,
the finality, the way the consensus is designed.
And I think, I mean, those are all great.
I mean, from the user perspective, I don't know if they actually noticed
the difference, to be honest, but I think there's, there's two things
that are kind of less emphasized by other folks and that's maybe the
developer toolkit that's provided out there.
So when developers come into a new layer one ecosystem, they start to think,
is there an indexing solution?
Is there an Oracle module that I can leverage to actually build my thing?
And a lot of times, I mean, people like to talk about modular and you'll
have a third party application that'll come build it, but that also adds
a layer of complexity sometimes where, you know, you have to, let's say
you're working with a third party Oracle module, you have to go find
that third party Oracle modules BD team, introduce them to the new team,
then get all the technical developers to work together.
It's a bit easier if it's kind of like, okay, this is our native Oracle solution.
It's already embedded into the layer one.
It's all in the same GitHub.
It's also simple to use and easy to package, right?
We've had projects come to us that said they were in other layer ones
and they didn't have those existing solutions.
And those teams had to either find a third party or build it themselves,
but we already had it natively built.
I think another thing that we point to is the ease of developer onboarding
in the form of like developer docs and tutorials.
So I think Tara did this very well in the past.
This is something that we focus on.
So there's the developer onboarding.
That's one thing to focus on.
And then also making it super simple from the user to be able to
and I think this is where the concept of this super app, super chain sort of comes in.
And if you think about how technology has evolved in web two, I think if you
look at the internet, right, there used to be a ton of different websites
for let's say like pet stores, for example.
Eventually a lot of things started as single applications uses, but then
they eventually merged to the large fan company or you take a look at WeChat.
You can do multiple different use cases, but in one interface, right?
And crypto sort of lacks that right now, where we have a ton of excited
builders that are out there and it's great for innovation, but over time
it needs to be synthesized from the user experience, right?
So that was sort of the idea behind the native apps that we had built in the
stack, which was a purpose AMM, a spot AMM and stable coin.
And that sort of replicated the trading experience.
You can get on Binance where you could trade perp spot and stable coin.
There was a large problem that you look at.
If you try to look at C5 versus DeFi trading volume for perps, for example.
And a lot of that sits within C5 on actual centralized exchanges and
people just haven't really moved to DeFi.
And there's some technical limitations to that, like actual throughput, but
a lot of that is really just the user experience and you're not getting
that same trading experience all at once.
So if the classic example, and I think we had talked about this in the past,
but if you try to replicate that experience in Ethereum, I have to the
trading experience of Binance, for example, I have to bridge through
Arbitrum to get the GMX, the other GLP token, the Uniswap ecosystem.
There's the curve ecosystem because it's underlying a gas token, right?
So there's already at least like four or five different interfaces
that you have to interact with.
So the idea is eventually, as I tried to allude to in the prior monologue
that I went on was you kind of want to pinpoint eventually the key third
party applications that you'll put together that will make it very
seamless in the user experience from the user experience and together
you have the user experience, you have the developer experience,
it just, the idea is almost like this app-like thing where it's like taking
complexity to simplicity.
So I don't know, that's a bit off topic, but kind of the vision there of
Nibiru as well that we wanted to outline.
You need to get a comment.
Yeah, you reminded me of some stuff like both from Powell and Jonathan
in kind of the broader response to why is there a proliferation of chains
anyway, like just in general.
And it seems like one aspect of this comes from just really all
blockchains, as far as I'm aware, kind of run on venture capital to start,
And so the allure or draw of building a chain versus a DAP is much higher,
I think, especially if I'm looking in the case of almost in like
If I wanted to find like a rock star engineer or like a 10 or 100X
engineer, odds are they're probably building a competitor or like
working on some chain right now, which is different than in like the
If someone said they were going to make, you know, work on something
on mobile, you probably would assume they're making like an app or
some sort of product, not that they're going to make a new phone to
compete against Apple or, you know, Samsung and Google and stuff,
So right now, I think Web3 is still at an early enough phase that
like, you know, teams are still duking it out over who gets to
be the phone, who gets to be the OS.
So you're not seeing as much of like, that initial draw for people.
Basically, it's because like, you know, it would be hard to
compel, to convince someone that Uniswap will be bigger in
usage than like ETH or Aave will be bigger than ETH itself,
So I think a lot of teams end up wanting to build the infra
layer or base layer because it's like more enticing, but you
actually do need teams to build apps too, right?
Rather so, I don't know, different take, but I think that's
part of the reasoning behind it.
No, I think that's really fair.
And, you know, I do want to move in these last 15 minutes
because, you know, I know I want you guys to get your
pitch in here and I know for the crowd where this is a very
industry in crowd conversation, but I think it's a really
important one and, you know, coming from you guys who are
actually building out some new infrastructure here.
I've also, you know, you guys have mentioned VC probably more
times, you know, than I've heard on any of these spaces.
And I actually think that people don't realize, you know, I was
at the Andreessen party last night up at the, up in Los
Angeles with Chris Dixon giving away his book and it's all
these, you know, all these infrastructure plays and like
they, like, you know, I don't think people realize that like
the top 15 BCs over the last 20 years have like the majority
of the returns that are out there and then everyone else is
just kind of like follow on money or playing around with
scraps. And the reason being is that they, you know, we are
still early and that is the groundswell that needs to be
built out before the rest of the stuff is there. So I think you
guys are on to it. And you're obviously in the in the mix of
it. I also saw that you guys have a great roster of backers
as well. So it's a great, great thing to see. But yeah, if you
guys want to just give two minutes straight up, like what is
an Abira chain? What's the differentiator? And then, you
know, for the speakers, take a listen, and then we can kind of
help you with some quality questions and learn a little bit
Sure, yeah, I mean, I had gone a bit over this, but let's see if
we can do it real quick. New layer one, we launched March 12. But
historically, project launched or started in January 2022, when
they were building, we had done a rolling raise from January to
September 2022. That was with tribe Republic NGC and hashkey, we
had done at 100 mil vowel, we had done two private test nets.
And then we did a four stage incentivized test net from March
to October 12, 2023. We did our private TGE and main net on
November 8, 2023, before waiting out the holiday period, after
which we did our token sale on coin list. So we raised 6
million through coin lists, selling 8% of token supply on
February 1. And then after which we have, of course, that our
main net token launch on which you can find us available on
Bybit, Kucoin, Gate, MEXI, among other exchanges. But that's
been the historical timeline. If we think about what it is,
it's a throughput optimized chain that, you know, it's a
lot of classical innovation. So you have a 40,000 TPS 1.4 second
block times done with 100 non collocated validators. You have
incident finality, parallelized execution, initially cause and
loss of smart contracts. But EVM will be on the roadmap for
2024. You have the comprehensive developer suite that I sort of
mentioned earlier. So this is the native Oracle solution
indexing solution, smart contract royalties, appealing to
developer simplicity and onboarding. And then you have
the native dApps. So the purpose AMM, which is next gen in its
own right. Spot EMM, Staplecoin together that makes you could
call that a super app in itself. But that acts as an
initial magnet that will draw folks to the ecosystem. And
this is sort of getting at the problem of how people build a lot
of layer one, then you can't really think of a dApp associated
with that, that this will be a highlight dApp to sort of draw
people in, but it's not necessarily the main focus, we
still want to promote an open ended ecosystem. So it's just
a kickstart to the flywheel because it's in development. But
this appeals to user simplicity and onboarding. So together,
complexity to simplicity, that's the vision. Team, three
co-founders, you have Younique, who came from used to work at
Psalm there, alongside Saki. You have Jimeno, who used to work as
the director of engineering at Tendermint. You have Kevin who
water the grad came from, he worked in Silicon Valley at
Google and Headspace as an engineer. He had myself that
comes from a tradified background. I used to work in
JP Morgan, investment banking, Credit Swiss, and GIC, the
Singapore sovereign wealth fund. We have a number of folks
that mostly we have, we have, I think around four to five folks
now from Ava Labs. That makes up growth, marketing. We have our
APAC lead from there. We have a designer there. We have an MIT
grad in ecosystem. He came from Ontology Network. We have someone
who came from Protocol Labs, the team that did Filecoin. And
then we have a couple devs that did, worked at Tendermint and
Siemens. Data scientist who had worked at a family office that
traded on Bitmax and Binance as a designated market maker, and
worked in tradify as well, I think at B&B Parabong. So it's
a team, I think we're around 20 folks, 20 to 25. Yeah, I think
that covers me and stuff, right? Yeah.
So you seem to have a lot of the infrastructure set up with
the backers, market making, exchanges, you've got the
throughput kind of narrative that you're working on. So where
you guys focus, you're going to have your town hall meeting on
Monday next week, like what's the focus going into literally
A lot of it's been the almost like, you could call like
developer relations. So a lot of the projects that are, when we
just launched, there was kind of like a pipeline of the
younger early Nibiru projects. And so right now, it's a
mixture of like assisting them, finalizing the stuff to put our
own depth on the chain. And then I think he mentioned, but then
like two of the main features this year is like to do full EVM
bytecode compatibility and like add it as a dual via like another
execution environment in addition to Wasm. So that's one
of the like, next features in the pipeline. So it's that and
parallel transaction execution are like the two, if you want
to call them like infra level features, but a lot of it right
now has been helping projects like, you know, prediction
market, he mentioned coded estate, they're doing rentals of
real estate, buying and selling, and then also speculating on
real estate markets themselves, just directly with perps. Yeah,
a lot of developer support, basically.
Yeah, we could talk about the the what about the shared
liquidity AMM model team that we were working with? Oh, sure.
That's, yeah, that's pretty exciting.
Cool. So they're still thinking of the name, but I think they're
addressing a pretty cool problem. So basically, there's
this project working on so just just as a, well, maybe some
background info first is IBC or inter blockchain
compatibility is often brought up as a compared with like
bridging protocols, but it's actually general message
passing. So you can exit you can sign and then execute
transactions on another IBC compatible chain, right, that
implements a like client. And so it's not just removing tokens
around and like the Cosmos ecosystem, but you can do
pretty cool stuff with it. So what why preface that is
oftentimes with, well, even on the topic of like a
proliferation of chains, like we mentioned before, you're
separating the liquidity, like even in the case of the L2s,
if they have better, you know, performance, it's still the
fact that like curve on. Arbitrum doesn't talk to like a
curve on polygon, right? So they the amms basically, like maybe
just focusing on spot amms still end up as this kind of zero
sum product. So what this team is working on is essentially you
put a shared state that one of the chains kind of holds that
is access a summing up the amms. So what does this mean
is instead of doing an aggregator, what you do is have
let's say I have a DEX on three or four different genes, but I
have pairs that hold the same asset. There's no reason to say
they couldn't cooperate and kind of sum all their reserves
together and let you swap with low liquidity. Because you can
say, I don't know, let's say it's like eating the dollar,
it's like as long as I have the ETH somewhere and can access
it programmatically and keep track of that shared state.
There's no reason I can't combine the liquidity of the amms.
And in effect, letting them operate in a non competitive
way, such that you can offer a better UX. So essentially, it
will take longer to execute the transaction, but you'll get a
way better price. And what that allows you to do is actually
build something where, you know, two different l ones, two
different l twos, what have you can actually kind of work
together rather than just separating their user base and
So I think I'm getting I think I'm getting it now. Are you
guys like, you know, did you and this might be like a very
pointed question, but you've got this tenderment team. And,
you know, are you guys basically bringing to life that that the
Terra promise and the IBC, you know, infrastructure that was
out there, it like obviously, you've probably made major
improvements on what was going on over there. But like, is
that kind of the narrative and the promise there of, you know,
we're going to get atomic swaps, and everything's going to
work together. And people are going to kind of live on their
I don't know about them all being app chains. But I think I
think like, the majority of what you said, like, that's
definitely part of the goal. I mean, it should be, it
should come into play at some point, especially on stacks,
like, let's say, in particular, it's like the avalanche stack
and the IBC stack are both based on like horizontal scaling. So
eventually, you have to come out with models that make sense
where I can use multiple chains, but it feels like one
chain. Right. So like we talked about account abstraction a lot,
you almost want like chain abstraction. Basically, I don't
know if that's a term yet, but
just made it up right now. No, it's I'm extremely bullish on
that. Any other speakers got questions, these guys, this is
really I know we're getting a little into the weeds here, but
I think it's really quality conversation.
It is funny, I guess. One thing to point out is when we
talk to some ecosystem projects, a lot of times they say
is it's just they don't get the support from a lot of the
layer ones that they're talking to. And I don't know if it's
because these layer ones expand so large that they outsource all
the helping to just BD folks. And then BD folks haven't ever
done a fundraise themselves. So it's harder for them to help
comment with that or help understand how to manage
influencers or, you know, they're obviously not builders
themselves. So they can't comment to the same level you
can when he helps on a call with them and can actually
brainstorm what idea they should go towards. But
I don't know if there's a point here on is overfunding on
layer ones, meaning projects are getting less support than
they they would have liked. And then just just food for
thought there. But no, you're absolutely 100% spot on and
for anyone that has a project and has partnered with an L1
and, you know, they're out there, it's like your funding,
you know, and I know you guys have a grants program as well.
You know, these are all startups, right? And they're
whether it's web three, whether it has some aspects of web
two in it, you know, projects and founders, when they're, you
know, L1 shopping, for lack of a better term, you know,
they're looking for some sort of support there. Right. And,
you know, especially for people that might be a little bit, you
know, less technical, or haven't launched something before, it's
like, hey, if you want to go, if you're super savvy, it's like,
if you want to go launch something on Ethereum, and
you're just doing your own thing, and like, you're gonna
go fundraise, and you've got this thing, you're building
ecosystem fine. But if you're new to the industry, you know,
you're, you're probably better off on your first project,
looking for people like you guys, that are going to support
them, help them fundraise, help them connect them to maybe the
people that back you, and help them build out their vision,
which could pivot 25 times on the way to finding success,
because that's what startups do. And so it's, you know, I,
like, I'm, you know, I'm cheerleading you guys to stay
focused on those developers and those teams of people, because
I think a lot of times people, these ones will get a project
on, they'll announce it, hey, we're all awesome. And then
hey, good luck, guys, we'll see you later. And that doesn't
work. And then these grants end up just getting sold into
your, you know, you give them a 50k grant, they sell all your
token. And then the next thing you know, like they're done
building, and what do you do next? And so it's, it's really
good to hear your your thought process right there, because it's
I could, I can tell you're thinking about, from a growth
perspective with KOLs influencers, creators,
developers and grants, which I think is hugely important.
Yeah, and I think it also trickles into community
building and just support, right. So if you have a culture of
helping people out all the time, it's easier for us than
make introductions with other projects and have them help each
other out, because we help them out so much, for example. And,
you know, when you think of building a layer one, it goes
back to building a city and building an ethos almost, right.
So I probably overemphasize on this, I don't know if it's the
right way to do it. But when you're selecting the
contributors internally, you know, we tend to look for young
hungry folks that love layer ones have already got trained in
another place, you kind of just let them loose and they can run
self autonomously. You kind of look for similar traits and
founders that can already think of the idea is you could just
give them high level thinking and they could sort of walk it
through you. There's just like there's a way too many
advisors in this space that do the same stuff over and over
again, which is here, I can make you introductions to
market makers, I can do tokenomics, I can do exchange
introductions, and the charge exorbitant fees for almost doing
what's a repetitive process, right. So this is why you're
seeing some accelerators all spin out. But then even these
accelerators, they're taking, they're asking for the typical
structure, like I'll take a 7% stake in your company for a 500k
check, right. So it's just, it seems like there's, there's a bit
of a way to go for for just educating builders on how to do
things normally, I guess. And if you can build, there's an
opportunity here for you can set the culture internally. For
builders that just have the right resources. Building a
layer one is more like a marathon and not necessarily a
sprint. So that culture will continue over time.
Can you clarify what you mean when you say builders doing
things normally, in that last sentence?
I mean, so obviously, there's a lot about bringing developers on,
you know, what is your you know, for if there are developers or
founders in the audience, listening and saying, Oh, I'm
thinking about, you know, building on the bureau chain,
like what's your pitch to them?
Oh, well, part of it is just from his last answer, right. So we
offer that support, right. So there's not just in terms of like
the grants, but actually, like, having people into assist in
terms of design, or if it is raising like, you know, it's
almost operating like a full blown accelerator for people
that kind of join the ecosystem. And that's something
we've gotten, you know, a lot of good feedback on and are
constantly working on. In terms of the actual, you know, tech
and product itself, I mean, yeah, it's having the tooling,
right? Like, we've got SDKs and all of the kind of popular
web3 languages between like TypeScript, Go, Rust, Python,
even, and then yeah, can support with like the wallet
integrations, there's a native Oracle that's really flexible
in terms of, like adding support, you know, it's almost
on like an as need basis. So projects that they needed, like
CKPs, we integrated with reclaim. And so then now that's like, I
think it's supported as well, right. So we actually do listen
to a lot of what do projects need that want to build and
then prioritize those in the actual roadmap, as best we can.
There's a throughput, which I guess doesn't affect the
builders directly as much, but more so, you like to make them
more comfortable that there's longevity. And then the other
aspect is also like baking in value accrual ties. So one of
those are one of the first ones that's already on the chain is
like the dev gas module, where fees that are spent on your
smart contracts, instead of them going all to the network, we
have it set that half go to the deployer or registered
address for that contract. So you can have, like, you can
kind of scale with your usage, like if you made an NFT
marketplace, that for some reason was, you know, had a ton
of mints going on. And you can have a lot of that value flow
back to you instead of just going to the stakers. Yeah.
Can you actually explain that a little bit further? Like, is
there some of that gas fee that ends up coming back to you as
Exactly. That's the whole point. So it would be like if,
you know, the example we say, sometimes, yeah, it's like if
you were on Uniswap, and when you spent ETH, like if half the
ETH just went to the Uniswap Labs team, right?
Interesting. Are there any other chains that are doing that?
I know Archway has a module that does this. And I believe
Phantom made a gas monetization. It doesn't work exactly the
same, where it's at like the base layer, but I'm pretty sure
Phantom has a similar idea feature called gas monetization.
Cool, but you guys are building some, you're building it out of
the box for these developers.
Yeah, or it's already on the mainnet. People can do this
Amazing. And then as we wrap up, you know, if there's any
retail folks out there that are like, Hey, I love what these
guys are doing, I want to grab some maybe and then maybe like
stake, you know, on like, on your DAP, like, how do they get they
get started? And like, how do they find you guys?
Gotcha. So if they've already got need be from somewhere. Well,
it's only on centralized exchanges right now. But be that
isn't a so that if they have it from somewhere, yeah, there's
staking, pretty soon we'll have like, prediction markets on
border provider that's going to do like liquid staking soon as
well. And then we'll also obviously be making like DEX
pools on it. But yeah, we have a we had our recently like an
ecosystem announcement that shows I think it was like two, two
or three dozen of the projects coming up. But generally, I
guess if you if you follow the Twitter account, you'll see
all sorts of DAP launching.
Amazing, you guys. Well, I love it. I'm, I'm bullish on
what you guys are building. You sound like you're veterans in
the space, but also veterans to startup and veterans to
understanding ecosystem. And that's really refreshing to
hear. So really cool stuff. Everyone in the audience, like
you said, give the new bureau account, give these guys a
follow. Really appreciate you guys and all the speakers for
being here today. Check them out app dot new bureau dot
fi. That's where I'm at right now looking at it's
pretty cool UI, great UX, everything looks really good.
So really appreciate you guys being here. Thanks everyone in
the audience for being a part of it. And then until next time,
next roundtable. Thanks for being here. Thanks, guys.
Thanks for having us. See you guys.