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Astroport Community Call with Entangle
Recorded: Oct. 17, 2023 Duration: 0:44:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
Do you hear me, Tristan?
We hear you laughing.
Oh, okay, okay.
Sorry.
Perfect.
That was good.
All right, I think we can start without the moderator.
All right, I think we can start without the moderator, maybe he joins a little bit later on.
Yeah, first of all, thanks for joining the community call.
Let's start and let's introduce both projects to both communities.
Yeah, let's start with Entangle 5 and Slava.
So, yeah, can you explain what Entangle is and just introduce yourselves.
Yeah, sure thing.
Before I explain Entangle and introduce myself, I'd like to give the word to Tristan, the CMO of Entangle.
Yeah, sure thing.
Maybe just a quick introduction.
So, my name is Tristan.
I'm the CMO.
And luckily, I'm joined to you by Slava as well, who's a co-founder and our CIO, who's our big brain, which we'll be talking on a lot of the complex topics today.
Yeah, and it's such a big pleasure to be here, and thank you so much, Astroport, for hosting this AMA.
I think it's going to be a great hour.
Yeah, so just to give a background about Entangle.
Entangle is an omni-chain liquidity layer that streamlines DeFi by connecting previously disconnected ecosystems.
We essentially aim to address the challenges of siloed inefficient liquidity, cost efficiency, and scalability currently affecting both users and protocols alike.
So, to do this, we have built our unique modular Oracle infrastructure and our native DAP Liquid Vaults, which each complement each other.
The Entangle Oracle infrastructure is cost-efficient and on-chain transparent, which can be utilized by any protocols across both EVM and non-EVM blockchains.
To really describe it at a very high level, it consists of a decentralized network of Entangle keepers and smart contracts powering the on-chain verifiable Oracle secured on the Entangle blockchain.
The use cases we offer include smart contract automation, cross-chain messaging, and price feeds, where I think our uniqueness lies in it being cost-efficient and modular.
So, modularity in this context means full customization for builders, meaning protocols can launch their own price feeds permissionlessly or set their own custom security parameters, which no one currently else offers in the DeFi space.
So, if we look in the context of the product utilizing cross-chain messaging, protocols can now scale cross-chain cost-efficiently through our Oracle infrastructure.
This could, for example, be a lending and borrowing protocol, scaling cross-chain, or someone building a token bridge.
Another key feature is any protocol, of course, being able to launch their custom price feeds permissionlessly of any asset, no matter if it's a Web2, real-world assets, or a Web3 DeFi asset.
Maybe much greater possibilities within DeFi.
But just coming back to the context and purposes of this EMA, which is hosted by Astroport, this leads to our native DAP, LiquidVaults.
With LiquidVaults, we utilize liquid stake derivatives, aka LSDs, to optimize already existing liquidity of yield-bearing assets, such as LP tokens.
So, essentially, Entangle is creating a refinancing market of LP tokens through LiquidVaults by introducing further utility of these, for example, to lending and borrowing protocols or derivatives protocols.
Just to take in context of TratFi, if you have, like, a very, very good bond, you are able to collateralize it for further capital efficiency.
But currently, this is just impossible in DeFi.
And this is precisely what we aim to solve with LiquidVaults.
So, this gives benefits of capital efficiency for the end users, as well as capital retention for DEXs, such as Astroport, and expanded products offerings for secondary protocols.
One such example is already live on the mantle testnet, where, through LiquidVaults, users are able to collateralize LP tokens of a DEX on a lending and borrowing protocol to achieve capital efficiency.
So, the DEX here is FusionX, and the lending and borrowing protocol is vendor finance.
So, I encourage everyone, please, to check it out on the testnet and see the possibilities.
Regarding where we are roadmap-wise and development-wise, we are currently live on testnet V3, where we have integrated eight EVM blockchains, with Say and MultiverseX being our first non-EVM integrations.
In the next many weeks, we are integrating more and more lending and borrowing, DEXs, the AdRubis protocols, and further expanding the capabilities of our Oracle infrastructure.
In the last few weeks, we have opened up access for community validators, where quickly all 100 slots were filled.
We, as well, have also just opened up our Oracle infrastructure for public testing, where currently we are onboarding protocols and doing a lot of heavy testing.
Regarding audits and mainnet-wise, we are slated for audits in November, where we aim to go mainnet by the third week of January.
I think that was pretty much a high level of entangle.
I hope it can be well understood by everyone.
All right.
Hello.
Yeah.
Did you hear me?
Yeah.
You got a little word.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we did.
Thank you so much for the introduction.
I can introduce myself.
I'm Andre, core contributor to AstroPort.
I think I'll pass the word to Stefan to introduce himself and also introduce AstroPort.
All right.
Hi, everyone.
I'm Stefan.
Similar to Andre, I am a core contributor to AstroPort.
I'll just quickly about what AstroPort is.
AstroPort started initially on Terra1 as the main AMM slash decentralized exchange on that network.
In the last, I would say, year and a half, AstroPort kind of rebranded a bit.
It became a decentralized exchange on multiple chains.
Right now, AstroPort is on Terra2, Neutron, say, and Injective.
Everyone who uses these chains can go to AstroPort to create new pools with any new tokens they want
and then add liquidity and start trading.
It is pretty much similar to many other decentralized exchanges, but it does have its own, I guess, unique features.
One of them being the fact that AstroPort governance can propose and implement several pool types.
Right now, AstroPort has three pool types, at least on Terra.
So on Terra, there is concentrated liquidity, which kind of concentrates user funds around the latest price in that pool,
making it way more capital efficient than the pools that came before it.
There is stable swap that is very similar to what you can find on Ethereum,
where you can trade assets that have pretty much the same price compared to each other.
And then there is the kind of first ever pool that was implemented by other decentralized exchanges on Ethereum.
That is constant product, which can be used for any tokens, whether they are volatile or not.
Constant product being way less efficient than the latest pool type that AstroPort has,
that being concentrated liquidity.
I guess that's a quick introduction.
Thanks, Stefan.
I guess I would start by asking questions myself before even the public.
I, obviously, we've been in dots with Entangle.
And from where I saw and understood, for now, you guys will basically try to connect chains that weren't connected before.
From what I saw, you guys initially started with mostly EVMs.
How do we see, like, the same primitive slash synergies or from what you're building?
How do you see that coming to Cosmos?
Or can we even, like, connect the EVMs to Cosmos themselves?
Yeah, I think that would be my question.
Yeah, sure thing.
That's a great question.
Yeah, so first things first, we are going to expand into Cosmos with IBC connectivity as well
to enable cross-chain messaging between EVM chains or Cosmos-based chains, like, say,
or as well as non-Cosmos, non-EVM blockchains such as MultiverseX.
Maybe Slava or the Entangle main profile can answer this question.
Oh, you didn't hear me?
I did, Sandro.
Slava was speaking.
Can you hear me?
Him?
Him?
I mean, sorry.
Can you hear me now?
I can hear you.
Yeah, perfect.
Okay.
I can hear you now.
All right.
Go ahead, Slava.
Sorry.
Yeah, thank you.
So that's a great question about how we can further connect and expand the Cosmos ecosystem,
essentially, because what's important for the adoption of Cosmos is essentially that there
is more widespread adoption of access to users, because currently we're all bound by the Kepler
wallet, which I'm sure all of us use for Cosmos connectivity.
Please feel free to correct me.
And it can rather be a daunting process, right?
And while Cosmos blockchains do tend to offer more exotic products on more exotic yields,
I think we all saw that with FMOS back in the day when their Rekt drop.
And I think specifically for Cosmos, in order to further grow it, we'd really need to think
about how we can bring utility to Cosmos-based assets outside of Cosmos, as the user-friendliness
of the Kepler wallet and in general with the Cosmos ecosystem is always going to be a hurdle,
we like it or not.
So there, I think it's very important when we are building an Oracle infrastructure that
can connect Cosmos-based chains with EVM chains or other more exotic non-EVM blockchains such
as MultiverseX to expand the utilities of LSDs of Cosmos-based chains such as StakedAtom, for example.
Yeah, I would definitely say that you bring a good point, which is currently Cosmos lacks
activity.
And there is also like, there's always like a problem of chicken and an egg, right?
You need more users to attract more projects, more devs, but you also need more devs and
more projects to attract more users.
So it's always not an easy problem to solve.
And this is my own opinion, not Astroport's views, but I would say that the biggest hurdle
we have in Cosmos are, I mean, the biggest friction in apps and protocols, I feel like it's always
going to be the wallet first, right?
And unfortunately, MetaMask can't be used.
Now, with Leap having the MetaMask snap, that's good, but it's still not exactly 100% as connect
MetaMask and start using things, right?
So I think that's always going to be like some friction.
I think there are some people already trying to solve that problem and improving upon that,
even with Web2 solutions to auth, right?
For example, in Cosmoverse, Sunny, his talk was great showcasing that.
Because even on the Ethereum side, like if we talk about MetaMask, we are only talking about
existing crypto users.
But if we really want widespread adoption, we need like our partners, our parents, like everyone
to basically use it.
And if we want everyone to use it, they need the easiest experience.
And as right now, it's still not an easy way for normies to get into.
So yeah, I think you touch on a good point there.
Yeah, great points as well, Andrei.
I also think from a protocol perspective, it's very important that we create an Oracle infrastructure,
which lets essentially dApps on Cosmos-based chains and EVM chains talk to each other in
a seamless way.
So what could that, for example, mean that a user could be interacting with MetaMask from
an EVM blockchain and interact with a protocol on Cosmos while they don't directly know it
just because it's supported by a robust, efficient Oracle infrastructure, which allows the relay
of messaging back and across.
And if we can put more of the tech stuff in the back mind of a user so they don't really
interact with it, I think in this way we can greater expand the Cosmos ecosystem, the
user base directly or indirectly, but most importantly expand the very scarce liquidity, which is
on Cosmos or if we talk about, say, compared to traditional EVM blockchains.
Yeah, I agree 100%.
I think it's currently our jobs as devs to basically abstract away all the technical part.
And even, like, the vision would be to even, like, for users to not even think about chains
themselves.
They wouldn't even, like, know what they're using.
If you could get to that, which it is a big challenge, but if you can get to that, then
perfect.
As a current, like, IP, like, HTTP protocol, they currently, like, no user of the web understands
that they, well, I mean, they don't know what you're using unless you actually know.
And that would be a good point to get to.
So, and touching a little bit on that, I can, I think, speak a little bit more on the
Astroport side.
Astroport has been somewhat a long-living project.
And that means a lot of the things that we carry today are somewhat decisions made a long
time ago, or even the tech wasn't available to us at that time.
So, one thing that we've been focusing on a lot, being basically an AMM, is, and being,
like, a DeFi primitive, similar to how Oracle's are.
What you want is to actually have the best, like, developer experience for people to basically
build upon on top of what you already have.
So, a lot of our efforts and focus has been around that.
It's trying to improve a lot on how our protocol is built, so that any project that wants to
use Astroport, it's a lot easier to be done.
And, from what I understood, Entangle actually can help leverage LP tokens.
So, there's some synergy there with Astroport, if I'm not mistaken.
Right?
Yes, that's correct.
And it's a good analysis.
So, I think both communities will be very excited about this collaboration and how it's
going to look like in the near future.
So, far, our community has been very excited with the latest testnet integration on Mantle
as well, where users can participate, like Slava said earlier, in lending and borrowing
on vendor finance, and then take the basis of an LP token on FusionX for Liquid Vaults.
And through our collaboration with Astroport, Entangle seeks to expand the utility of these
liquidity provider tokens using our Liquid Vaults on SAI.
So, our goal is not to just enhance the capital efficiency of Astroport users and their LPs,
but it's also to increase the capital retention for Astroport itself.
So, most importantly, we aim to optimize the scarce liquidity available currently on SAI.
So, users can now stake the LP via Entangle for equivalent composable LSD, which they can
then utilize for further DeFi partnerships with lending and borrowing protocols on SAI, such
as CryptoNight.
And by doing so, this allows users to supercharge their yield and create more options for their
yield-bearing assets.
And so, and this is all done with a few easy steps.
So, for example, a user could provide liquidity to Astroport and then receives an LP token
in return.
A user would then stake that LP token via Entangle and obtain an LSD, a Liquid Vault, for example,
with a one-to-one return.
And now the user can utilize this Liquid Vault for further capital efficiency.
So, they can now take this LSD and deposit it as collateral at a lending and borrowing
protocol to borrow other assets and achieve capital efficiency.
Or you could also stake them on a derivatives protocol and supercharge your yields in multiple
ways.
Yeah, I think one thing that we need more of is actions or things to do in the cosmos.
Like, currently, there are a couple of projects that are actually building and they're interesting.
But it's still, like, there is a question of what really is out there for users to do and
use.
And that's what we basically need to improve on.
So, like, if we want activity and then for, yeah, for activity to pick up, basically.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
And I think maybe one of the issues that Cosmos has had some delays as well is since a lot
of us are building our own infrastructure.
And obviously, to build this infrastructure, it takes a lot of time since we're not only
building native applications.
We're also having to facilitate, like, essentially the backend software which is running all of
this, so I think it will be interesting to see if maybe people can even somehow optimize
this process.
And I think it's really why a lot of protocols are attracted to Layer 2s, for example, since
they have a large ecosystem growth fund and they have an easy plug-and-play solution.
But the barriers are also there since they're more of a one-size-fits-all and they can't have
as much customizability, which is why we've actually gone for a Cosmos SDK implementation.
So there's definitely some advantages, but also small disadvantages with the time it
does take to build out the infrastructure and your native applications with it.
I also think what's most important, I'm not so sure it's especially important for Cosmos,
but just in general for the DeFi space, is the fact that we build real sustainable products,
which actually makes sense, let's take the lessons learned from TradFi and actually apply
them to DeFi to create something which is backed by real revenue and not inflationary tokenomics
giving a 500% APR or whatever crazy thing.
I think this will really allow the sustainment of users and communities within Cosmos because
it will see things make sense, the liquidity is utilized.
It's not just another protocol launching and doing an inflationary APR and then just closing
down because in the end it wasn't sustainable and they had to close shop because they didn't
raise hundreds of millions.
Yeah, yeah, totally agree.
I think there was a good point around, so in Cosmoverse, the Stargaze talk,
I liked a description of what they mentioned Stargaze was.
They mentioned it was like four or five startups into one because you basically have to build
the front-end slash product application.
You have to build like the indexing service, the API.
Then you have to build the chain itself.
So basically, to your point, there's some couple of challenges that whenever you're building
in Cosmos, you basically have to build a lot of stuff.
Mainly, it's also because it is highly customizable.
So it's hard to have general purpose tools that help you with that.
But also because there's less devs, right?
So if there's less devs working in the space, then there's less people facing the problems
and then less or even people willing to solve those problems for other devs.
So tooling is something that should and can improve a lot compared to, for example, on
Ethereum slash EVM or L2s.
So yeah, there is a challenge currently.
And also, obviously, like, for example, if you look at Arbitron, like the grants they're
giving, they're insane.
So they can attract a lot of devs there.
But at the same time, as you mentioned already, there are a couple of trade-offs.
I like Cosmos, like the Cosmos SDK, it is much, much far superior to what EVMs can give
you, but as I've been saying, like, sometimes the better tech doesn't always win.
Linux is the better tech and Windows 1, in a sense.
Obviously, a lot of servers and most of that stuff is Linux.
But for the customers themselves, at least from where I'm from, Windows was still the
most popular, and we could say that Linux is the better tech.
So yeah, we need to really find a way to not be the better tech, but lose, kind of.
Or we don't even have to think as a zero-sum game.
Maybe there's opportunities for everyone to basically win.
But yeah.
Yeah, I totally agree on you on that.
I think also, like, because of a lot of Cosmos apps, or dApps, sorry, are so into the tech
and the deep ends of it, they also sometimes just forget about creating a simple front-end
user interface that isn't confusing.
I mean, if you compare most of the EVM dApps front-end, it's just simple to use.
It doesn't require half a brain.
And you just click, and that's it.
Whereas with Cosmos, dApps, it's just often a pain.
It's just so tiring to figure out how everything works.
And I guess that's because often developers are more spending time with the actual back-end
stuff and the blockchain work rather than the front-end and the design, because they always
want to create the best stuff.
But I also think that we see that with Tezos.
I'm not sure how familiar we are with Tezos, but excellent technology.
But I mean, try to look at the dApps and generally using the Temple wallet.
Like, it's like rocket science.
And if you even go deeper than that and try to use the Tezos Explorer, I'm sure your head
will explode.
And I think what Tezos has shown that it doesn't matter the best tech you build, because Tezos
is also superior to EVM in many ways.
But if you can't really make it usable, like, outside of the top 0.001 DeFi DJ community, then
no one is ever going to use it.
Not even banks.
If DeFi DJs can't use it, why would Web2 banks start using that tech, which allegedly it's
originally built for anyway, right, blockchain, is really to bring transparency to the current
unavailable and often unfair banking industry, right?
Yeah, 100%.
Like, if you want more users, you need to make it super easy for users to use it.
And also clear why they should use it.
Like, this is my own opinion, but I think a lot of users in DeFi are basically chasing
APIs, right?
They want somewhere to put their money and earn money, basically.
That's a part of the users.
And there's also another part that's basically chasing the 10x, 100x opportunity to get rich.
I think that's also true.
I'm not saying anything that's new here.
But we need to find more the real use cases.
Because even when I talk to normies, and by normies, I mean just people outside of the
industry, they always ask, what really good problem are we solving, right?
And the biggest thing I can say is just more on the financial aspect.
But other than that, which is already good enough, because you need transparency.
Like, we've seen how the, with Robin Hoods of this world, what that can do to retail.
But I think we need to really find the way, the things that, so one thing that I like to
think about is whenever the web was built, the first websites that were built were basically
the yellow pages on the website.
Like, people were, like, they were building websites basically as they were newspapers or
magazines, right?
So they basically were transporting what they already had seen to the web until they realized
that the web has stayed and you can start clicking on stuff, right?
And that's when web 2.0 actually appeared.
It's when you enabled the new features that weren't possible previously with the previous
stack, which was newspapers.
Like, you can't click on an ad on a newspaper.
It's just physical.
It's just there.
So I think we need to try as best as possible to realize exactly the new possible things we
can do that weren't previously possible in the web 2.0.
And once we realize that, that's when we actually take off, right?
That's how web 2.0 took off.
So I like to think about that.
Obviously, I don't have the answer.
If I had, we were working on that project most likely because it would be hopefully a
success.
But that's what we need to really try to get to.
Once we have that killer product, as, for example, social networks also were, then I think
we take off.
Yeah, great points.
Actually finding a real use case within DeFi.
I think this is really where we're super confident about what we're building at Entangle, a fully
modular and customizable Oracle infrastructure, which can connect to any EVM, non-EVM, or Cosmos-based
chains.
Now, as I mentioned before, we do offer smart contract automation, cross-chain messaging,
and price feeds, which can be customized to tailor to any demand.
But what I think is really important, especially with Cosmos, as we see that often DeFi, as I
mentioned, is there when there's high yields, but when there isn't high yields, then it slowly
dissipates.
And I think a really good example of that had been Evmos, which gained a huge user traction
when they gave out free tokens for the first two months, but then slowly it died out, even
though their tech is very impressive with how they managed to build their own version of
Ethermint, essentially a combination of EVM and Cosmos.
And where Entangle actually comes in and bringing more use cases than just DeFi is we can allow
any protocols or any banks or any Web2 entities to mint and allow the utility of real-world assets
credits through our oral infrastructure.
So this could be, for example, companies minting their tokens on-chain, backed by a token deposit
in the real world.
Or this could be further extrapolated to, for example, carbon emissions credits, which is
going to be a huge, huge thing in the next years as the world is slowly understanding the
climate impact and the ways to solve it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A good use case indeed is the possibility of programming incentives of user actions you
want people to take.
Like if we think about government, like when governments, they come up with policy or politics,
all that is, is that is basically creating incentives for the outcomes they want.
Obviously, sometimes they don't go the objective they wanted, but that actually, I think is one
of our greatest strengths in our industry is that we really understand game theory, aligning
incentives and really thinking through it to make sure you get at least the goal that you
want.
If it is the best outcome, then that's obviously sometimes subjective.
But yeah, I agree, like blockchains are very good at basically kind of forcing is a bad
word, but like forcing users to do something through incentives, which is interesting as well.
Yeah, some really great points.
I think maybe a good elevator pitch or comparison I've heard Cosmos to is imagine layer twos as
a one size fits all website builder.
So like a Wix or a square space is really good if you're a beginner and allows you to get
things up and running very fast, but it doesn't allow for much customizability where if you're
a large institution or a large company that needs their own custom website, you would typically
hire your own in-house developers, which could be a connotation to Cosmos itself.
So layer twos, they might be great early on and for people who want to do a simple plug
and play solution.
But if you really want to build something that's customizable and flexible for your crypto
products, then I think we're going to see a lot more tailor-made solutions by Teams-owned
in-house developers.
Yeah, a clear example of that is DYDX, right?
They basically built directly on L1, then they actually moved to an L2.
And then as you reach a sufficient, like meaningful size, then now you basically outgrow the limitations
you had.
And now that's why they're kind of building the app chain.
And I think that that is a very natural way of evolving a protocol and moving towards it.
It is the most sensible one, at least.
Obviously, most of the, sometimes you already know right out of the gate that you need to
build something highly customizable right away, especially if your product requires that.
But yeah, I think DYDX is a very good example of that.
And it is something that makes me very bullish on the Cosmos stack itself.
And also, it is very bullish because it will be a huge app in the space where it will bring
credibility to Cosmos.
And also, they will most likely and certainly work out some of the UX problems of bringing
users in.
So, we'll all gain from it.
So, yeah, I'm excited for that as well, matching your analogy.
Yeah, I think DYDX is really a green light for what's possible with customizable solutions
on Cosmos.
And it's something we're keeping a close eye on ourselves.
Yeah, what I see they have a real advantage is that they already have the users, right?
And I think that's also, like, we can talk tech all day long, but you need the users.
And so, they have a huge advantage on that, obviously.
And yeah, we need to basically, I think, yeah, we just need more users for the apps to be used.
Because I think technology is much more, it's much better and available already.
But yeah, there's always things to do and evolve and improve.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
We might just have to jump soon as we have some team discussions in a few minutes.
Is there any maybe community questions that we could answer?
Yeah, I think that would be great to open the floor for someone to, if they want to ask
any questions, to jump in.
I guess I need Sandro to help with that, giving the permission.
I haven't seen anyone.
Do they have any questions?
Okay.
Yeah, if anyone has a question, just request for speaker, and you get an invite, and you're
on stage then, and can I ask for whatever you want?
Do you have any questions, Stefan?
I asked mine earlier.
No, we don't have additional questions from the audience, it seems.
So if anybody has a question, now it's a chance to raise your hand.
Otherwise, I would say we can wrap this up.
And yeah, thanks a lot, guys, for joining this community call.
Yeah, thank you, everyone.
Thank you to your community of Astroport and Entangle, which are attending here.
I see a few familiar faces.
As well, thank you so much, Astroport team, Stefan and Andre.
It's been a genuine pleasure being here and discussing Cosmos and Entangle and Astroport
and our upcoming collaboration with you.
Thank you so much, and hopefully, yeah, hopefully it's a very good collaboration.
We've been working very hard to improve upon how other protocols can work with us.
That's super important if you want to be like a liquidity layer, similar to how you
guys are so kind of are.
So yeah, hopefully it will be a pleasure to work with.
Yeah, looking forward to it.
And thank you again to everyone who's come out.
It's been a pleasure.
We'll see you on the next one.
Thanks, everyone.
Thanks a lot for joining.
Have a great day, everyone.
We'll see you on the next one.
