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Ava Operators Panel
Recorded: Aug. 15, 2024 Duration: 1:03:03Space Recording
Full Transcription
All right.
Let's make sure this thing actually works.
Should be good.
There we go.
Awesome.
It is my job to get some really cool people up here on the stage.
Just making sure we can get them up here and get things, get the ball rolling.
All right.
Here's what we're going to do.
While I struggle to add our speakers, let me hit play on something short.
Here we go.
Here we go.
Just when you think that you've got to go
Just when you get home
Oh, here it goes, here it goes, here it goes, girl
Oh, here it goes, girl
I should've known, should've known, should've known again
But here it goes, girl
Oh, here it goes, girl
Starts out easy, something simple, something sleazy, something inching, pass the edge of reserve
Now through the lines of the cheap donation blinds
Your car is pulling off of the curb
Oh, here it goes, here it goes, here it goes, girl
Oh, here it goes, girl
I should've known, should've known, should've known again
But here it goes, girl
I should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've known, should've
I guess there's gotta be
a break in the monotony
for Jesus when it rains
how it falls
I know you close
the second side
so for us
and you need me
yeah you need me
here it goes
here it goes
here it goes again
oh here it goes again
I should've known
should've known
should've known again
but here it goes again
oh here it goes
oh here it goes again
oh here it goes again
I should've known
I should've known
oh here it goes again
oh here it goes again
oh here it goes again
I should've known
I should've known again
oh here it goes again
oh here it goes again
all right we're getting some of these speakers up here make sure that we can have this
on conversation about eva operators um i know that sometimes we do have uh x act up just a
little bit not not too much but chris i see you in the listener section i don't see you
up here quite yet i did send you that invitation so um i'm gonna try to do that again make sure i can
get you up here but clem i see that you're up here i see you as a speaker i wanna uh yeah hello hello
ah there you are all right good you can see me this is good this is good because i'm getting
messages in the background saying hey uh action are you in this space like yes i am here i'm glad
you can see me
ah hey
chris there you are
good good good let's see if we can hear you mind hitting that unmute button saying hello
hey action can we meet you again test test test oh you sound good likewise sir like wise um
today we got a pretty fun conversation lined up um i know that if you're in here you probably
already know about eva protocol but we're gonna go a little bit deeper today um i know that last time
and i think last time we talked this was back on july yeah i was the 17th of july if i'm not mistaken
and we talked about that mainnet launch and what was going on with with eva protocol today we're
going to change the topic just a little bit and we want to talk to people that are actually
operators on eva protocol to make sure that we kind of get that real world feel of what it's like
to actually build in this space and chris i appreciate you joining us uh if you don't mind
give us a little bit say hello let us know what you do over there
sounds amazing action uh yes first of all hello everyone uh chris well uh actually i'll take the
lead for this space this time um kudos to our head of a marketing stand put together this amazing
eigenlayer operator round table for us to discuss uh eigenlayer tokens and the potential token incentives
from the avs's um i'm chris lee your host from ava protocol action is the host actually i'm the co-host
um and i'm excited to have you all here as we explore the fascinating world of token incentives
for eigenlayer operators and avs's i see people are rolling in um action could you make sure our speakers
are promoted here i am absolutely yeah no i'm bringing people up right now and sending those
invites so um i'll definitely get them up here yeah i'm uh just going over our speakers amazing
lineup today um but i'll mention them a little later uh we've got a clemen o from the nethermine
cyborg sophia from kelp that's kelp doll kelp doll and jonathan risman uh jonathan risman from p2p
he can't come so pending uh vincent ferretti from validation cloud and yenshu yadev from lugan nodes
so all of the operators are pretty big operators in the eigenlayer ecosystem system space so if for the
listeners if you are still thinking about staking or restaking your eth uh choose one of these
operators based on their personality
wait wait so it's a it's a personality contest
exactly no pressure guys no pressure but you gotta make sure you show up pretty good today clem you ready
yeah gotta show up today gotta gotta win over some restakers and delegators tonight i guess
i mean this is it's every day one three let's be honest if if you don't know that that's how
this works this is how it works i mean it doesn't matter if you're talking about validators on any
chain it's like who do i like most i mean they're charging me a higher fee it's okay i like them
enough to go with them um so i i definitely see this happening time and time again this phase
um people people talk about how it's important for companies to be doing good things and you know
the operators to be reliable i just want the operators to be good people man like ultimately
i think you're dead on chris like it's ultimately to me most important that i am working with good
people i don't mind paying a little extra if i know i'm supporting somebody that's good um that's
not only good but like doing good in the space so uh yeah clem the the no no stress but uh big
pressure okay yeah absolutely we'll try and perform tonight
thank you ah cyborgs cyborgs here all right we're getting our speakers
coming up now this is so crazy um x does this thing sometimes where he's just didn't show people for a
little while i think yanshu from luke and those pinged earlier i did i did invite yanshu as well yeah
awesome
and we've got
cyborg yep cyborg is here as well
hey guys how's it going
good good good uh we just got started um so waiting for the last speaker i think that's
vincent from validation cloud and
so it's hello it's vincent hey guys excited to be here i hope i'm audible
hey yanshu
chris i don't see vincent quite yet uh it could be just the refresh thing on the on my device
here but um as soon as i see them i will absolutely get them up here
all right how about we uh get started the listeners are waiting um we'll just well let
let me start with the intro and then we'll uh the first the part part for part one is speaker
introduction so we'll ask each speaker to give us a quick intro
of both themselves and their companies
so i'll start uh with an intro this is chris lee your host from ava protocol
uh our objective today is to share some thoughts on the eigen token and avs tokens incentives and
maybe some interesting insights since some of our operators are very close to the eigenlayer team
for evil protocol avs we are aiming to introduce more eigenlayer operators to our services and encourage
them to run our solution our avs on their nodes at the same time i mentioned this before we hope this
session enhances the brand awareness of our speakers and basically eigenlayer operators and it helps
attract more delegators to their operators uh we we've got a fantastic line of speaker today
including clement o from nethermind cyborg sophia from kelp vincent ferratti from validation cloud who is
joining and yanshuya dev from look and notes i'm looking forward to the insights and the discussions
we'll share today all speakers feel free to uh skip a question later on if you are not comfortable
comfortable answering them i will make sure each speaker has an equal amount of speaking time but
please keep in mind the hotter your takes the more eyeballs will raise all right we'll we'll kick things
off with some introductions uh followed by a series of questions covering pretty much everything about
token incentives and finally we'll open up the floor to uh the questions from the community
all right um let's start by having each of us of of our speakers introduce themselves and their
companies feel free to share um how you got into the crypto space and what your what are the big things
your company is currently focused on clement um how about you would you like to start yeah absolutely happy
um thanks chris sam and the rest of the uh ava team for inviting me to be on this uh space today um really
really cool and glad to interact with your community as well um and yeah hopefully answer some of your
questions at the end too um so yeah i'm i'm clem and currently i'm the product manager for everything
restaking related at nethermind um prior to that i was a tech lead and engineering manager at
immutable which was um a gaming focused uh nft protocol um i kind of got into the crypto space
uh like a lot of people after defy summer um and you know it sparked a lot of interest
and i really like the idea um of decentralized systems and how that could return ownership um of data
and assets to uh the user or the um the person who's earned uh that asset essentially right so
got me really excited about crypto um and i've uh dived deeper and deeper ever since
and now i'm at nethermind and sort of what nethermind is famous for is sort of the execution client
the nethermind execution client is around about 28 to 30 percent um in terms of client distribution on
ethereum at the moment so that's what we're really known for um and since then um we've expanded to sort of
blockchain core engineering um infrastructure management uh daps and enterprise engineering
research in like crypto defy and protocols and sort of like security and that standpoint would be audits
uh formal verification and real-time monitoring and of course uh restaking which is you know what we're
all here to talk about today um yeah so that's that's me and i guess i'll i'll pass it on to
you to slide next um if you'd like to take it away
hey guys how's it going um i'm currently in paris i don't know where you guys are in the world but
i'm currently in paris it's very hot and there's no ac so i will try my best to stay sane during this
uh this ama but it's a really huge pleasure to be here with all of you um chris again uh thank you so
much for having us um so i'm head of partnerships at kelp dell um and how i entered the space was
actually back in 2017 um so um i'm an aerospace engineer just kind of by education but as i was
pursuing my degree um i think we all have a crazy crypto friend um who's just kind of showing me
eth and litecoin um during 2017 and i was very interested but more in the sort of like how is this
asset accruing value like what is the kind of mechanisms that allow it to have accruing interest
and obviously value um which was right around the the time that ethereum came out with like smart
contracts and i was very much intrigued by it so that's kind of how i started um as an ethereum
developer and then worked a lot with many different l2s i led gaming back at polygon um and yeah so been
interacting with the eigen ecosystem now for the past year and in an official capacity with kelp for
the past uh two three months or so and uh yeah very excited to get to hear from all the other speakers and
dive into the subject awesome awesome thanks for the first two speakers uh vincent do you want to go next
yeah sure um i've been in the crypto space since since uh 2015. i originally got exposure through
bitcoin so i may have been that crazy friend that was uh you know pushing their other friends to to
purchase but um yeah i got involved on more of an interesting luck more than chance or more than
choice and fell in love with more of the appreciation of the value of bitcoin and then pivoted to
understanding the blockchain technology underlying bitcoin and the mass amounts of uh problems that can be
solved with a simple solution and just you know very excited to see eigenlayer coming to to mainnet soon and
i think it's really a full circle of seeing an industry that has evolved from you know uh just bitcoin
lending if bitconnect rings a bell to now having ethereum restaking platforms taking off and um really
excited to to see where the space goes thanks chris avid protocol and genzio for hosting this um
you know extremely excited to hear from you know extremely excited to to hear from the community as well
thanks missen all right yanshu you're the last one to go
yeah sure thanks chris uh so hey everyone uh my and my name is yanshu and i'm uh contributing to
growth and research here at luganotes and uh i came uh i first came across bitcoin ethereum back in
2017-2018 but it wasn't until the d5 summer as glenn mentioned that i got into the like
properly got my hands into crypto and the underlying blockchain technology and since then i've been uh
you know playing my hands on with uh community work and uh uh content and sort of bd and then uh
two years back i think uh i joined luganotes uh it was around the time they were getting started
so uh luganotes is uh for those of you may not be familiar with luganotes luganotes is a swiss
operated or institutional grade non-custodial sticking provider which is born out of lugano
plan b program uh lugano planning program is an initiate joint initiative between the city of lugano and
either where like uh essentially they're pooling the resources to you know foster the blockchain
technology in the city and so we were one of the first startups to born out of that and since then
we've grown to like managing about three billion dollars in staked assets across 40 45 plus us
blockchains and there are leading value around polygons uh one of the top editors on ron in solana so
many other protocols and uh recently we also started this uh node as a service platform which simplifies
node deployment and management allowing users to leverage our robust infrastructure effortlessly and
uh yeah and uh we've been one of the early contributors and supporters of eigenlayer starting
with the business on the ive nda and uh ever since we've been uh you know very excited about the restaking
uh landscape and uh excited to be here and thanks again chris and everyone for you know getting us here
amazing amazing we've got bitcoin ogs right bitcoin maxis aerospace engineering
engineer um and clemen was from nft space that's very interesting uh very diverse background for our
operators uh uh give us i want to give a shout shout out to the eigenlayer operators these four operators
they are pretty pretty much uh i don't know top 25 maybe even higher ranking uh eigenlayer operators
so listeners if you want to restate your eth choose one of these four
again based on their personality based on their performance today
um all right let's get into the hot questions i have a so eigenlayer had a new announcement yesterday
that's the second question is is it's a hot topic um let's start with the first one
one so let's start with the round of predictions of the upcoming eigen token value well this is not
a legal advice or financial advice we're just you know blindly guessing or predicting the value of eigen
token token you know this is just for fun so speakers what are your thoughts
i think vincent wanted to talk actually curious to what you're gonna say yeah um chris you mentioned
some hot takes i think this is a pretty hot take so usually what you see with tokens that are launched
and a lot of the pre-trading is they try to find a you know a market bottom or where traders are
comfortable with a specific price and i still think eigen's sort of in that place at the moment um so i
could come on here and be very bullish and say you know nine dollars or ten dollars but i'm actually
going to go the opposite end i think we're trading at four dollars right now um you know on pancake swap
i i actually see this probably settling somewhere around a dollar fifty um finding some bottom there
and you know this could be an allocation period accumulation for other investors that weren't
able to get involved uh early on and then potentially see you know further growth later on
so it's hard to give like a core prediction but i do still think we're trying to find a bottom and
find an accumulation um phase
that's very interesting um especially the the trading price on pancake swap i think i think that's a good
anchor cyborg do you have any thoughts on that um i'm kind of just going to go with the whales markets
um they're kind of capping it at six bucks but um i think to vince's point um there's a lot of
speculation around eigen especially that it's solving a lot of different sort of bottlenecks um and so it's
very much a project that is solving a real solution and i think where there's real value there are real
you know like people that can actually speculate on a solution versus on a product that they don't
understand or probably that doesn't have a future um so i mean i guess for me it's going to be between
a dollar and six dollars which is a pretty wide spread so don't take financial advice for me
all right i have a question um so let's assume the eigen token price is one one and a half dollars so
from the perspective of speaker uh uh operators how much more is that compared to the uh eth yield
because now our st eth are in eigen layer smart contract right the the rewards went to eigen layer
smart contract and instead we get the eigen layer points so i've never figured out the conversion myself
i i stick in my st eth over there uh never did the calculation i just wait you know just wait to see it
when they hit the exchange or whatever um so how much more will be eigen layer like eigen token versus the st eth rewards
so i think um at least from our perspective um to be honest like we have been really focused on
supporting the ecosystem um sort of like i guess running a lot of avs's at the uh for quite a while
now like a few months um without sort of like looking at the reward side and really focused on
just helping avs's like you know figure out the kinks um when it comes to you know building avs software
and and use utilizing pulled security um so i guess from from our perspective we've been focused yeah more
on the growth and supporting the the network of avs's um i think there will definitely be a time where we
need to consider the financials in in more depth but at this stage we're we're focused on um helping
the ecosystem grow however we can uh yeah all right that's that's at the next level that's clam convincing
us to focus on value long-term value instead of the short-term price all right uh let's move on to the
next question uh this is new this is just dropped yesterday to arguably um discord i just saw it like
12 hours ago so basically they announced that um the permissionless token support an upcoming update
to the eigenlir protocol so the feature will enable any erc20 token to be permissionlessly added at a
restakeable asset so sounds like the security of the eigenlir operators now can be backed by any
erc20 erc20 tokens so i that sounds like a very bold move to me and it's and it comes so quick
so yeah i want to you know throw in here and just see if you guys have any ideas you know like how long
have been this brewing and what do you think of it i mean uh because it's been such a recent announcement
and to your point chris it is quite a bold move especially that there is a lot more to focus on
right now with restaking native staking etc um i had the impression that there was going to be more
of a focus on what kind of erc20s were going to be accepted for like rewards from abss since i think
um the eigenlayer team was going to be announcing more information around that and slashing but uh yeah
definitely need to read up a bit more and see just like as an lrt platform how we can benefit from this
or just from a general awareness standpoint but it's really like fresh news 24 hours
so need more time to research
yeah i think um this could also be a response to other restaking protocols coming into the space
so i know for example karak also offers erc20 uh tokens um that you can restake and
uh issue rewards with so i think um as much as it may seem like it's not a priority um it could be
sort of like a competitive uh reaction um to the other protocols and what they're doing as well
yeah that was that was my take as well um you know i think it's more of competitive nature to
introduce something like this and i think it's just getting their foot in the door to be able to pivot
if needed um so it'll be interesting to see you know as you know competitors start to pop up and see
how they end up going head to head with i think you mentioned it clem uh karak
yeah actually i would also like to add on like what uh clem and vincent uh said and uh yeah it could
be more of a you know to give a competitive advantage like uh as karak was one of the first
ones to introduce that and i think even symbiotic has a pretty good flexibility so i think it's even
though it might add some technical complexities but uh ultimately it gives more uh like more
flexibility to like users and uh to even operators so yeah i think like it's a it is definitely a bold
move and we definitely have to look into it more and you know to research for and see the potential
like outcomes or what could be the consequences of this but yeah it's a
um sounds like it's a it's a quick defensive but a very risky move well said well said um that's
very interesting uh yeah yeah we can't ignore the development of other um other eigenlayer similar
protocols i mean for i for operators i think it's not a it's not a bad thing right um but uh since
eigenlayer start to support all the uh erc 20 tokens i mean yeah they can attract those assets
to uh operators to avs's awesome all right let's just gonna put it out there just like very quickly
i would just say that the eigenlayer although um there are other competitors um it's probably the most
mature restaking ecosystem right um just from the sheer number of avs's that are there right
like if you look on symbiotic um they currently are still struggling to find avs's they've been
doing a great job but like ultimately this is all about shared security and finding protocols that
have to trust this um platform and i think eigen has done a good job which is why i was a bit surprised
when i saw this article yesterday um i think it's really good theories about carac um could be other
things as well but uh very curious to kind of dig into it yeah to earth uh i mean i mean the the eigenlayer
founder is the founder and i'm personally connect to um so since we share a common investor electric
capital we used to go to uh the electric capital dinner together so uh before he uh you know before
this skyrocketed i was sitting next next to him chatting about all the random things but now
i have to see him at a conference and talk talking to him up for five minutes you know like at a
conference there's a huge line of people just waiting to talk to him i turn around and i see 25
people behind me and they hustle me off so that's how hard it is to talk to the founders now
but he's really smart uh friendly and uh he actually like remember remembers me uh talk about all the
stuff we used to talk about uh so i mean professor genius so uh definitely have an edge on that front
but uh as you said well defensive move definitely need to uh like head to head with other protocols
all right the next question will be um for avs token rewards um i wonder if any of you could share
some successful reward model for your operators for example you can say okay solana token model i really
like go ahead vincent you can just uh turn on the speaker turn the mic yeah um
i think it's it's interesting like like the reward models i firmly believe are the best ones are
ones that are you know engaging the community and really structuring it around that i think if you
look at dydx and the way that they've done it with the governments from the community um and you
know handing over more and more power to the community as things you know evolve i think it's
really intelligent because at the end of the day you know in order for rewards to be very successful
it's dependent on how the blockchain operates and how you know uh the community is involved
and so you're sort of making this flywheel effect that as the community continues to be involved the
rewards are getting bigger and they're getting more decentralized and they're getting more
involvement and so i really like that model and i think it's um you know definitely one that we look
at a lot and they're proud to be a part of um and i think it's it's definitely something that a lot of
others that are looking to implement a model should be looking at um you know not necessarily how they're
doing it exactly but just like understanding that community is extremely important and highlighting that
uh as as as things scale very interesting yeah the founder of dydx uh was was the early adopter from
coinbase right he definitely understand how to engage community very very interesting thoughts
um clem do you have any thoughts to share cool um not on this particular topic at the moment but yeah
definitely more more upcoming stuff yeah no worries no worries
what about the issue and the cyborg um i think having avs rewards is definitely gonna kind of
bring some good kick back into the eigenlayer sort of ecosystem um i think you know the community is
waiting for it we've been waiting for it um i think what eigenlayer has done very smartly is sort of
just kind of phase out releasing their product just to kind of protect users and obviously there's
so much capital at stake that they kind of want to be careful with how they're kind of introducing new
features so that's something that i definitely appreciate but once we start seeing these rewards
kick in i think it's going to have a very net positive effect on the ecosystem in general
um i think it's going to reinstall sort of confidence um as to why these restakers
were intrigued in the first place right so it's kind of like diversifying revenue um from an operator
standpoint uh we're not operators but just from the operators that we've been speaking with right that
got into this space so it's you know having access to more revenue and also a diversification of
revenue since you know every specific abs has its own probably token like rewards so it's it's good
sort of like universal exposure to barely like very early ecosystems um obviously like we don't know
which ones will be more successful which ones will not but just kind of having very early access
um is always lucrative um especially for restakers um i think also what's what we like what we could be
working on i think as we kind of work towards having these rewards is more awareness around abs's
i think for me that's kind of the missing piece of this puzzle is you know we speak so much about rewards
but um i would like to kind of you know like maybe not on this ama but just in general as an industry like
actually bring more awareness and education around like what these different abs's do but um overall
net positive effect um looking forward to having it i think eigen announced that they're gonna start
releasing four percent of their eigen supply towards rewards so that's very encouraging um and yeah we'll
continue to kind of monitor the progress there so very interesting
oh wow wow thanks for sharing sharing the insights uh yes as you said the uh whatever rewards the
operators and the delegates are earning are bottom line the real upside comes from the avs tokens
i believe that well that's why that's where eva protocol is here to fill the gap
all right clem go yeah um sorry i had a blank before but um thanks cyborg for filling in and giving us some
awesome insights i think um yeah so we worked with um eigen layer pretty closely to launch the um rewards
distribution so that was really interesting and i think avs rewards uh is going to be really really nice
um for operators um for operators especially i think um because running the infrastructure um and the
engineering effort involved in maintaining and monitoring um and supporting these systems can be
costly and i think having the avs rewards come in will be really useful um to help sustain the ecosystem and
it's really nice to see that eigenlayer has you know put down some of their stash um to support the
whole ecosystem as well um even with the you know rewards floor for avs's who are fairly new to the
space i thought that was a really cool idea um so that yeah you know like uh operators don't just drop avs's
who are new to the space because it takes a long time to figure out the tokenomics um you know how much you
um so i think it's really nice um so i think it's really nice that they've come in and provided some
stopgap rewards as well um to make it more sustainable yeah
um uh yeah i would uh like to add like what uh clen said and like we have seen in like previously a lot
of uh you can say sufficiently successful uh reward models with uh you can say uh like ethereum's uh proof
of stake uh ethereum transition to like ethereum 2.0 then paul carot nominated stake of proof and
with solana also but each of these are like they have their own strengths and like aim to different
aim to you know address different challenges in the network security and decentralization like
while like no system is flawless they represent like significant uh you know uh growth in the
in incentivizing valuators and even uh delegators to ensure the network integrity but uh saying that
like introducing rewards on uh evs is it's it's a pretty good move and as as clen mentioned like
it's important to incentivize the operators for uh their running cost and the operational cost and
like the many costs associated with that uh but it also might introduce some of the you know uh
complex challenges like let's take ethereum for example like ethereum's like monetary policy it
focuses on maximizing network security and it while also limiting the token issuance on the to control the
inflation and with the increasing stake ratio like ethereum adjusts the issuance curve to maintain
a balance between the between security uh incentives and uh the inflation control and while like you
know uh this is the demand as the demand for staking eth is uh like driven by uh reward rate offered by
the protocol and the supply depends on how many eth holders are willing to stake their token uh at that rate
uh the protocol like uses some sort of bonding curve and um other mechanisms to adjust rewards related
to in relation to the total amount of staked but as it as as it continues as as it continues to be
staked at higher rates the staking returns we have seen like you know um are expected to decrease and at
this current issuance curve the minimum annual uh the minimum apr might drop as the uh stake ratio increases and
uh this this this dynamic balance is crucial to prevent excessive inflation while maintaining network
security but it also like introduce some uh drawbacks and uh which with associated with the high stake
ratio and so one of them could be like real versus the nominal yield you can see at higher stake ratios
the rewards earned by these stakers are increasingly offset by inflation and as the protocol you know must
issue more tokens to provide these rewards the shift from real yield to the nominal yield can like
deter new participants if if the nominal returns are not competitive and then you know we obviously
have the network effect of money the the moneyness of eth or its security at the underlying asset
as a store of value is influenced by its stake ratio as well and if staking returns like diminish or
due to inflation or you know eth holders might seek alternative investments and or staking options and
that that's very like you know liquid staking tokens coming and they are like uh you know the a lot of
these uh uh future implications associated to it like the protocol eqf provided is likely to decrease
over time affecting the probability of especially the solo stakers and but uh then you know like we
we see the rise of these lsts and new financial products like these mevs and especially coming to
restaking they could account you know for the higher percentage of staking rewards and potentially
benefiting the large node operate operators um uh even the solo stakers who offer these uh low lower
fees at high volume so yeah yeah yeah it goes deep uh i think uh you yeah yeah we will not go down
the the rabbit holes in this ama but you just open up a few questions uh guys if you want to know more
maybe ping yanshu afterwards uh first of all i think the uh the uh the demand side actually need to
definitely need to catch up on the with the supply side and the yeah the tokenomics it's it entirely is
a big topic uh i mean we used to work in the polka dot ecosystem and polka dot had like five six papers
talking about like discussing how the token works i think eigen leader is at a paper two now so they
have done decent amount of work uh on the tokens but as the answer said there's so many uh factors you
need like we need to balance out for the eigen token uh for avs token as well so it's definitely definitely
a big topic to discuss yes like potentially from what we have seen with these like what we know for sure
is the importance of this continuous monitoring and the need to adjust the reward structures to
maintain the incentive alignment between like you know which ensures the ecosystems sustainability and
i think eigen layer is heading towards that and with with uh with the recent uh like you know the
reward uh rewards and the programmatic uh programmatic uh incentives so i think they're heading in the
right direction and like obviously community feedback and engagement will play a very pivotal
role in shaping these adjustments and addressing the emerging challenges that we might see in the future
nice positive feedback from yanshu look and notes uh all right um the next one is also very
interesting after next question there's one more and then we'll just open the floor to the community
um so as operator how do you balance the reward between you know the operator nodes and your delegators
to ensure fairness yeah um so at the at the moment the operator fees are fixed at 10 percent um but there
are definitely plans on introducing variable operator fees and i think when the variable operator fees are
introduced what will happen is a natural free market will form where operators need to
make sure that you know their infrastructure is efficient and cost effective um so that their you know the
fees that they're charging are not too high um that's one angle to go for but the other angle is also to
uh offer sort of premium services um for example um let's say like a majority of uh avs's um you know us are
running on a single node but they might have uh some avs's where require multi-regional uh multi-cluster setups
um for example so um operators can offer sort of like uh more elaborate services for avs's and
uh they could charge higher fees for that they could also charge higher fees for say um premium sla and
support monitoring alerting on call and so on and i think what will happen is yeah a free market will
definitely form where um you know some people will gravitate towards the cheapest possible option to
maximize yield and other people will gravitate towards the more premium operators um because they trust
sort of their safety and reliability records and when slashing comes in as well um that will be a
massive factor in evaluating like um you know which operators um are the most reliable and to put your
money there yeah
you know i'll kind of add on to that i think like speaking upon how how you know we're looking at it
at validation cloud is um at the end of the day we want to have the most performance uh infrastructure
possible at the lowest um commission fee possible as it starts to open up and i think you know when we
look at you know the free market and you know seeing where things go i think there's an inflection point
inflection point where um the delegators and the operators can sort of shake hands and say you know
this is best for the both of us um but i i don't foresee that happening anytime soon i think you know
where we're looking at it is going to make it as cheap as possible for us to be able to make sure that we
can put a very high performance uh operator to market and then also making sure that you know
our first priority is delegators are getting the return that they need um that's the most important
on our end and i think you know once we get to a point where we can start to uh scale up and
potentially uh raise fees we will introduce you know more features you know more uh premium services
like like clem uh announced but i think that the most important part right now is is performance
yeah that's very interesting i mean if we kind of look at who are the major stakeholders right now in
the eigen ecosystem right operators um restakers um kind of feed off of each other right i mean the
the more delegation an operator has the more revenue they can potentially make so from that respect
um at the end of the day like mathematically it has to make sense for operators to stay on eigen
and for delegators to um delegate so for me it's always been kind of like a chicken and egg situation
but i think you know as we see these rewards jump in um it's gonna make it a lot more worthwhile
um the revenue split for example with like other teas is slightly different so like with kelp we
delegate for example with luga nodes who are actually our operators so great to see you guys here um so
we delegate around 238k eth um and that's shared amongst two operators that we work with um and i think it
just has to mathematically make sense for all parties because as a liquid restating protocol i mean we also have
to make our revenue so uh typically what that looks like is revenue on on eth that's deposited and then
some kind of rev share with like operators um in addition i would say that like maybe towards the future
we would see something that's a bit more like an index fund right where like the more avs's we have
the more operators can niche into like specific categories of avs's i mean like right now we're
seeing like roll-ups bridges data layer kind of providers um and then these essentially like these
restakers can choose who their operators are right and they can choose that based on which avs's they
would like to delegate to so i think um the more niche this kind of becomes the more i think this
sort of like revenue split model can become more gamified but i think right now i think everyone's just
sort of getting by as this industry kind of matures and we see rewards kicking in so very excited
uh yeah i think everyone here has like valid points and as uh cyborg mentioned and vincent mentioned that
like ultimately we'll have to come to a handshake and like it should mathematically make sense like
we see like while these takers and they are bringing the capital and which might be at a potential risk but
again like if you're if you're like putting it with some uh like uh like in advance like validators
like all of us here like who has like you know operational experience and so i think there should
be there should be a uh you know a balance to that and uh operators should be rewarded like based on
their performance metrics and uptime variability and all those things which builds up you know the
reputation builds up over time and these operators occur incur like various costs including server expenses
engineering costs devops theme operational and legal costs and it's essential to ensure that the
these operators are also fairly compensated uh and uh as well as you know the delegators
they are also happy like uh with like what they're getting and like and based on based on like
the industry experience and our past experience on like various protocols the ideal range is somewhere
around like five to ten percent of the total rewards and but again like the abs ecosystem it's all
still very new and still developing so we're here to see like what what exactly makes sense and what
doesn't make sense but yeah i think we will get there soon that's an interesting point actually um so not
not gonna like go too far down the rabbit hole but for example like i think what's really interesting
that eigen is doing is like when it comes to like slashing um as an example like they're not taking
sort of like a very sort of hard-knit approach so like they've sort of taken a a very um objective
subjective way of looking at slashing since you know if you know if there's a sort of like double voting or like
like double proposing that can be like a very serious offense so the operator would get slashed
uh but then they're kind of taking a more sort of as they call it an intersubjective approach so that
this doesn't ripple down all this to say that when slashing comes into effect um i think there is going
to be like sort of like a reputation basis for like operators i mean obviously because this is like
like beacon chain there's um slashing plus sort of like abs specific slashing would introduce more
complexities right um so i do see like sort of a reputation system happening around like which
operators are entitled let's say to like top rewards or like top um funding versus like let's say if
there's any sort of historical event of malpractice or like intersubjective sort of slashing so i think
all of these parameters will come in much later it's too early to tell but just some things to think about
cool um just wanted to share um something as well um we're starting to see uh avs's come up that are
supporting other avs's so um a good example of this would be anzen um so they're an avs that essentially
helps uh avs's um figure out what a good uh reward uh slash cost balance would be um so avs's can
optimize how much they're paying out for rewards and i think over time we will probably see
more avs's that cater towards other avs's and um potentially uh we will see something like an avs that
helps uh operators figure out you know what is the right fee to charge based on you know the current
market uh demand and what other operators are charging so i think there will be yeah a much larger
service economy to target the restaking uh community and stakeholders um so that's really interesting
to see yep i would agree with uh claim here and like uh like we will see a lot of these different
various like different services and with different avs's that treated to these different avs's and
as like uh the as like shiram khanan like mentions their vision of this open verifiable
digital commons where these avs's are put in as the open verifiable sas and
these avs's can like you know just like sas services abstract away certain aspects uh useful
across many applications these avs's will also expect like abstract away these certain aspects and
useful across many applications on the this open verifiable uh cloud which essentially so yeah
um like a lot of excited exciting things to see and amazing thank you thank you for sharing all all
these insightful information uh i know that it has been a whirlwind of questions and answers uh we don't
have time for the community questions so guys if you get a questions dm the speakers and if you haven't
stake your eth choose one of the four speakers so for the last few minutes so each speaker so clem cyborg
vincent yenshu let's go in this order um spend 30 seconds to reiterate your company name and your
most recent update or you know what's upcoming on your roadmap let's go
clem you want to take the first yeah sorry i forgot i was going to start first um cool yep so our
operator is nethermind and uh we're really focused on the ethereum ecosystem we do everything from sort of
engineering to advisory to research and security um and in terms of like what's coming up next with our
operator um we're looking to uh sort of build out uh some apis uh with sort of working closely with
eigenland um so that we can make information um on the protocol more easily accessible to everyone
um so that they can figure out you know what is happening uh on the protocol um so that's really
really really exciting stuff um and we're looking to see how that develops i guess i can go next um so
with uh kelp dow we just launched kelp again back in tuesday so two days ago uh we're almost at 50 million
kelp gain is essentially an airdrop vault the first of its kind built by august so we're essentially giving
you guys the highest boost on two different l2s across their ecosystem and you get to get this by
just simply depositing your rse eth eth or lido eth with that you have a receipt yield bearing token that
you can use later on on pendle and other l2 markets and it's an apr of an upwards of 30 percent so
make sure to check it out um this is just um a part of us essentially making sure that when it comes
to defy and lrt's that we are kind of uh exposing our users to the best yield but also protecting them
because what happens a lot of the times that they don't do their own due diligence about protocols or
they end up spending a lot of time essentially searching for this yield so we have created these
sort of structured products aka vaults to kind of do that for them so definitely check it out
and if you have any questions for me my tg is cyborg sophia or you can reach out to me here on twitter
and thanks for tuning in
yeah and um uh validation cloud uh and you know something that we're we're looking forward to is
i think this is you know some one of the other speakers mentioned this but it's just an ever
evolving landscape and eigenlayer and we're just really excited to find you know strategies to be
able to support the ecosystem more and more um so i can't really pinpoint exactly what path we're
going to be going down but at the core of it validation cloud is an infrastructure company
not just as an operator as a validator but also on the node api side and
delivering rpcs for protocols and additional ecosystems so there's a lot of opportunity here
for us and we're extremely excited um you know not to only be working in the eigenlayer ecosystem but
working you know individually with a lot of other avs's and partners within the ecosystem as well
yeah i guess that leaves me uh and as i mentioned previously like louvo notes is a
source-operated blockchain and we are operating across various uh protocols and uh but we are like
especially excited about ethereum and eigenlayer and we are like like you know uh adding actively
adding these new aviases to our uh list and uh expanding our operations and working with working
with the leading lrts like kelp and renzo to you know uh integrate most of the products and uh these
walls and strategies to essentially you know and uh you know provide a uh uh enhanced yields for our
customers and uh provide robust infrastructure uh for the operations and uh like again like it's it's
like difficult to pinpoint exactly what but like we'll be uh definitely definitely focusing on
expanding our strategies and uh you know joining more aviases uh in the coming future yeah thank you
and thank you for uh you know inviting here and good luck everyone
of course thank you thank you uh speakers for your amazing insights and the listeners for tuning in to
this uh monthly ama ava protocol monthly ama well uh since we're a little bit over uh i'll wrap it up
now and i'll see you in the next evil protocol monthly ama cheers guys have the rest of the good rest of
thank you so much chris and just as a quick reminder if you guys have not followed our speakers make sure
to do so everyone is always talking about alpha in this space and the best way to get that kind of alpha
is to follow the people who are actually building things and running things operators alike so make
sure you're following the ava protocols account up here chris and all these incredible operators
hey guys thank you so much for what you do um if protocol would not be the same without you so
appreciate all your help
thank you
