All right, good morning. Good afternoon.
afternoon, good evening. We got Bob here. I'm Kyle from Definity and I'm excited for this Twitter space. We're going to try something new. I don't know that we've ever tried something like this, but the idea is simply as we prepare, I guess, two things, I guess as we celebrate
Bitcoin direct integration on the internet computer where the protocol can actually sign transactions on the Bitcoin ledger. And as we prepare for the end code hackathon starting at the end of this month, I thought it would just be a lot of fun to have a break.
brainstorming session, just bring out some ideas of, hey, what kind of innovation could we have by integrating these two protocols? So we're joined here with Bob bodily, who's going to be my co-host for this session. Bob, how are you doing? Hey Kyle, can you hear me okay? I hear
you're perfect. My, how do you okay? Yeah, yeah, you sound great as always. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks, thanks for having me up. Yeah, so Bob's the CEO of Bionic. Is it, do you go formally, Tonic or should we just say CEO of Bionic?
I mean, either way, technically CEO of Tonic, I've been generally just saying CEO of Bionic lately, but either way, either way is great. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Bob's probably the person most knowledgeable from a technical standpoint of the intersection between
Bitcoin and the Internet computer technology stacks and Bob, do you want to just give a quick background of Bionic and what you guys are doing? Yeah, so our main goal, like if I had to say 20-year vision, you know, we're trying to allow people to have
digital ownership of their assets. And so NFTs and Ordinals is a big part of that. We have Tonic, Tonic Market, which is our NFT marketplace on the Internet computer. It's the largest NFT marketplace on the Internet computer, and now we're building Bionic.
Bionic will be an ordinal's marketplace a Bitcoin NFT marketplace and We have our explorer. It's live already you can check it out at bionic with a Q dot IO and Then we have a wallet release and a marketplace release You know coming in the next few weeks
We have everything tested, everything's looking really good. Just need to cross some teas and dot some eyes regarding legal and terms and some final testing and then we should be ready to go. So we're calling Bionic the world's fastest, ordinal's marketplace.
because you essentially take your BTC and you wrap it over to CKBTC and you take your ordinals and you wrap them over to, I'm calling them wrapped ordinals on the ICP side and now you can transact at the speed and cost of the Internet computer instead of the speed and cost of Bitcoin.
So that's, you know, two to five second transaction times. And then no gas fees, like on Ethereum and no network fees like on Bitcoin, I think to make a BTC transfer on the Internet computer. It's 10 sets as the fee.
Whereas the cheapest you're going to get a Bitcoin transaction is like 333 sets. And more depending on the congestion on the network. So yeah, this is our strategy with
There are definitely some additional trust assumptions by building on ICP, but we feel like we can provide 10 to 100x better user experience by doing something like this. And we think that that's an interesting trade-off.
I think Bionic will be one of the best ordinal's marketplaces for this reason, really good user experience, fast, etc. So that's a pretty central. I really appreciate that. That actually is a great segue into
this brainstorming session, you're just basically laid out a great use case for what the big direct Bitcoin integration could be used for. You also touched on the use case of CKBTC, which is like a digital twin of Bitcoin that lives on the Internet computer.
I'll say real quickly, I've never executed a Bitcoin transaction for less than 500 sats. I think usually I think one time I tried at around 300 sats and it sat in the mempool for a day before I gave up on it. So anyways, the way this works is,
Feel free to request to become a speaker if you've got an idea and you want to just basically throw it out there and see if it's a good idea or just kind of bad ideas back and forth. Feel free to request to become speaker. And if you're somebody, if you're a developer who's looking to
join the encode hackathon that starts at the end of this month. Be listening and take in some of these ideas, take in some of these thoughts and jump right in. Actually, I've got a few ideas myself, but I'm going to hold off to them. Joshua, I'm going to go ahead and add you as speaker.
Joshua, you got an idea? Hey, what's up? Actually, I had a question first. Thanks for having me, by the way. Nice to meet you, Bob.
I had a question about ICP and like wrapped ordinals and such, because I just discovered this like
in the last 12 hours. So I haven't really had much of a chance to dig into it, but I'm participating in the Ordnals hackathon right now and trying to research kind of like smart contract solutions with that can interact
with ordinals in some way. It doesn't have to be super directly. It could be through a wrapper setup. And so I was just curious, like when it comes to wrapping an ordinal, do you provide a pre-existing ordinal or is the inscription
And sorry, I mean, inscription. Do you provide an existing inscription or is creating the inscription part of the process? Yeah, I think that's a great question. Let me just walk you through how we're implementing it.
The wrapper process is you take an existing inscription and then there's an ICP Smart Contract, Smart Contracts and ICP are canisters and so there's this canister and it generates a unique Bitcoin address for each ordinal that is wrapped. So this Smart Contract can
I have thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of unique Bitcoin addresses, one for each unique inscription that is transferred in. And then on the other side, it will mint you essentially the twin of that on the ICP side.
And now we're going to take an existing inscription, put it into the smart contract, and now it comes another one on the ICP side. So that's how the wrapper works, which means you have to have an existing inscription in order to put it through the wrapper. The other method that you talked about actually like inscribing, so we are working on a lot of the
Launchpad for Bionic and the Launchpad will actually do an inscription. So you can, whether you're a creator that wants to do a launch or whether you just want to like, you know, inscribe yourself some one-of-one, you could just go in and you could inscribe and the way that we will
inscribed as we'll inscribe directly to wrapper addresses and so you'll inscribe on Bitcoin it'll be inscribed and it'll be inscribed directly to this wrapper smart contract that will then issue you a wrapped ordinal on the ICP side. So that's how that's how we're implementing.
Cool. Do you have a built-in way to create an addition on the ICP side from an inscription on Bitcoin? Say that again. So is there a way to, in your like,
When you go to wrap it for the copy that sits on ICP, is there a built-in way to create an addition? You could use the ordinal as a sort of original permanent asset on Bitcoin.
and then in the wrapper provide like a limited edition say 10 copies or something. I was just curious if there's a built-in way to do that. Interesting. You're looking for like open edition slash almost ERC 1155 type functionality.
Yeah, to kind of like have the yes exactly. Yeah fractionalization is probably the best way to put it. Yeah, yeah, so technically
Technically, once you wrap over on the ICP side, you can do whatever you want, because now you have fully functional smart contracts. And so you can do literally whatever you want. People are doing Python and
TypeScript as smart contract languages on the internet computer, also Rust, and then one unique to ICP called Motoko. Once it's on the ICP side, you could do whatever you wanted.
you want it to lock something up and fractionalize it. Technically, there's nothing keeping you from doing that if you wanted to issue a fungible token to fractionalize you could. There are technical and legal concerns to doing all of this, but once you get it on to the smart contract side, you can
You can do whatever you want. Super weird question today, but going to become a super normal question in a couple of months probably. Have you tried to program smart contracts with chat GBT? How well does it understand your API?
I think that's a great question. I've played around with ChatGPT quite a bit. And I think you get what I've seen so far. This is just my quick take on GPT4. If you are already an expert in whatever you're trying to use it for,
Then I think that you can make a lot of progress and get a lot of good ideas, good, you can make a lot of progress with GPT-4. If you're not an expert, then sometimes it'll do good and sometimes it won't be good. Jordan, do you want to comment on this? I know you've done quite a good job.
So yeah, so yeah, so yeah my name's Jordan. I'm building the TypeScript and Python and stuff that Bob just talked about. So I use GPT4 basically every single day. It does not have any information about new APIs that have come out. So any of Bob's
Bob's stuff, if it's like specific to Tonic and BioNic, it's just not going to be there. But what you can do is if Bob has good documentation, you can just copy paste the documentation over multiple messages, and that might get you some pretty good results. I've done that to some extent.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's how I imagined doing it is just copy-pacing documentation. I guess I was just curious like I feel like in the future there's probably going to be some kind of metric for like this is how well chat GPT or whatever future
co-pilot, pick your name, AI assistant understands our API, but until that day, I feel like we have to have this kind of awkward conversation where you try to feel it out informally. So I guess that's kind of what I'm asking is like in the situation where you're copying and pasting how well does that work, because I feel
like with solidity based development, it works pretty well. It's not perfect, but it definitely gets you going. I was just curious if this was the same if anybody had experience through that workflow. Yeah, in its current form, I think the cutoff is what like September,
So if you have something like solidity that's been around for a long time prior to September 2021 that I think GPT-4 is going to do a lot better at that. So for any older technologies I think it'll be really good. For any newer technologies it will be less good. Cool.
Yeah, so I with my idea I'm working on an alternate reality game and which is an art heist and I'm trying to build a community interested in interactive experiences that involve fashion and so my thought for an
MVP is an alternate reality game and you kind of meet all of these fashionable characters as you go on your experience. And so the main technology piece that I'm looking for is Smart Contract Functionality and
to basically give me like a set of mechanics, game mechanics, that makes sense. And then kind of like precede transactions, talk to like quote unquote actors in the web 3 space, who maybe would hold on to NFTs or whatever, you know, basically like create a trail of red
Crumbs and plan out a sort of storyline and you know like set up the chessboard as it were and then invite players to collect an avatar to start playing and then they kind of like you know do their detective work and discord and read it and you know Twitter or what I have you so
So that's sort of what I'm working on in the hackathon. And yeah, just kind of trying to find interesting solutions for kind of the smart contract side and trying to include Bitcoin as an important part of that. Cool. Yeah, sounds awesome.
I love it. So are you are you part you're part taking you said in the ordnance hackathon right? Yeah, yep. Yeah, well, if you want to if you want to build any of that tooling on the internet computer, I'd say definitely check out the encode hackathon as well. Particularly if you're planning on integrating anything to do with Bitcoin, I bet
sounds like a great candidate for that hackathon as well. Okay cool, do you have to start your project at the start of the hackathon, which is a common rule or can you bring a pre-existing thing? I don't know that answer off the top of my head but what I would say is if it is
is that you have to start at the beginning, then I would just compartmentalize your project to take a work package and work on that. Cool. Yeah. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. Cool. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for the good questions. I thought that was a pretty good deep dive into some of the more technical
So yeah, so if you have any if you're listening and you have an idea for a crazy way we can use Bitcoin on the internet computer I go ahead and just hit the Request to speak button and we'll get you promoted up here while we wait for that Bob the we
I'll give you the first wing. Did you have any crazy ideas you wanted to throw out? I mean, my list is long. You know, there's so many crazy things you can do with Bitcoin on ICP. If I had to start with one,
Maybe we should, well, they're all kind of interesting. The easy one is we could do not just Bitcoin DeFi, so with CKBTC you can do all of the DeFi stuff on
on ICP, but beyond that, it's kind of like meme coin season right now. So if you look at what's happening with meme coins on Ethereum, it's also meme coin season on Bitcoin. That means people are minting fungible tokens on Bitcoin.
as wild as it sounds, it is exactly that wild. So it's called BRC-20. It's taken off over the past couple of days. There's a marketplace called UNICEF. They've already done a couple million dollars in volume on BRC-20 trading.
you could do BRC 20 token DFI on the internet computer. You could take a BRC 20 token, you could create essentially a smart contract on ICP where you send your BRC 20 and then essentially it just mints you out
a fungible token on the ICP side and at that point you can do whatever you want with your BRC20 tokens because you have this wrapper solution. You could do DFI with your BRC20s, you could list your ordinal in a BRC20 token, you could do a launch and require someone to pay BRC20 in order to
purchase one of the one of the ordnance that you're selling you could incorporate BRC 20s into your game you know dropping you could do air drops more easily you could do basically anything you can do with a normal token you could then do with BRC 20 so it turns
I would call BRC 20 probably the most inefficient annoying, fungible token standard of all time. But the beautiful thing is you could take BRC 20 and wrap it onto the internet computer and all of a sudden it has all of your standard
token interfaces and you can do essentially whatever you want with that token. So this is a crazy idea. There might be some small technical hurdles. Well, maybe small, maybe big to doing something like this, but this is definitely a wild and crazy idea that could be really, really cool.
Bob, the idea of fungible tokens or the fact that there's a a token, a fungible token standard for Bitcoin is just one of these things my brain will never accept and it just seems so anithetical to it.
makes me wonder, is this a simulation and we're all just kind of puppets here? And then the simulator is just making jokes at this point. So I love that idea, Joshua, you got your hand up. Yeah, I just wanted to mention the first ORC 20 indexer went up, I think like two hours ago.
roughly or something pretty new so it'll be interesting to see what happens with that as well but you know theoretically less annoying so yeah yeah I mean a little bit less annoying but I mean still it's I mean I would I would put them all in the same
of annoyingness. So just a brief background for anyone that's not familiar. There's something called a meta protocol. A meta protocol is like a messaging/compute layer that sits on top of Bitcoin. So for something like this, the way that ordinals works
is you actually take your image data and you store it in, it's called the Tapper Witness data of a Bitcoin transaction. It's just a place where you can put data. So you have your image there and then ordinals use something called ordinal theory and it basically
sets from the very beginning, let's number all of the sets as they are mined from 0 to whatever, you know, about 2.1 quadrillion. And then let's track those sets through the UTXOs so we always know where the sets are. And once you
to do that. Now you can take an inscription, you know, this image data that you stored on Bitcoin and you can then attribute it or reveal it into a particular set. And that single satoshi is now, you know, the inscription is an inextricably tied to that
So now you can like trade trade that Satoshi around and you're trading the the actual inscription What BRC 20 does is it's it just you takes a JSON like protocol BRC 20 I want to you know the operation I want to do is I want to deploy and I want to deploy this particular
ticker that has this amount of supply and it's just a message. It just uses this ordinal envelope to store messages. So it's essentially using Bitcoin as a messaging layer and so there are all of these BRC 20
messages. There are transfer messages and there are deploy messages and mint messages and then there's like a BRC 20 spec that tells you the rules for how to interpret those messages. And that spec lives on a node, not a Bitcoin node, in order to index
PRC 20s, you need to have a Bitcoin node and on top of the Bitcoin node you need to have an ORD client that's like syncing and doing all of the ordinal, ordinal theory metaprotocol work and then on top of that you need to have a BRC 20 indexer. So I would almost call it like a
Meta, Meta Protocol, a Meta 2 protocol where it's a Meta Protocol on top of a Meta Protocol. And so once you have that indexer on top, then now you can interpret all of the messages and you can understand
20 balances and you have essentially state there. So that's the really long technical background behind BRC20s. That's basically how they work.
What is the competitive advantage of a BRC 20 over an ERC 20? The benefit of a BRC 20 is that the messaging layers stored on Bitcoin.
And so you have meme coins on Bitcoin I Guess so I I did I did actually I said that a little bit tugging cheek, but I kind of meant it serious But but but that answer Bob I think Let me let me throw out a clue
crazy idea and you say agree or disagree. So think about all the databases that live in the world right now. I would argue the Bitcoin ledger, if you think of it as a database, is probably the one that's most likely to survive, let's say, the next thousand years.
Does that agree, disagree? - No, yeah, I mean, maybe. You could say that and you may be mostly right. Jordan, did I hear a no from you?
Well, I do not want to derail the conversation. I think it's debatable. It's one of the top. But I think there are competitors that have one of the top.
Okay, so I'm going to I'm going to throw out some ideas for products because if if I if you think of the Bitcoin ledger as a database and one that will live forever and is immutable, I think there's some cool things that you could do with like Basically like telling your life story
So, one idea I was thinking about for integrating for the ICP and BTC networks is you could build a family dow where you have a smart contract to
that can write to the Bitcoin ledger, can inscribe onto it. And basically your family, Dao, is the group of people who get to decide your life story for you. And they're going to every, I don't know, month or two months or three months. They're going to inscribe something new about you that they've all agreed upon.
through a dow vote. That's my crazy idea number one right there. Yeah, at that point you're essentially attempting to immortalize yourself into the blockchain. Which is a pretty cool idea. I've spent the last 40 years
years trying to immortalize myself into anything. And so Bitcoin might be my best chance, I guess. I keep having all these kids because that's the way I'm going to immortalize myself. But anyways, okay, so there's that. I also, I want to give a silly one.
And also hopefully this kind of spawns some thinking I'd love to get some more people up here just to kind of spit ball some crazy ideas No ideas to stoop it and here's here's to prove my point It's very well known within let's say the Bitcoin community that there's there's this Bitcoin bear
called Peter Schiff and he's a gold bug and he kind of likes to troll the Bitcoin community and his tweets specifically are almost like they've kind of gotten this mythical aura around them because he tends to tweet
It's a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a#
Bitcoin and then maybe it will automatically sell you that Bitcoin in 5 days or a month or something like that. But the nice thing is you can do that because of the internet computer, you can do that without Oracle's. You can just have an HTTPS Outcall, so let's say the Twitter API, although Twitter's API is
is frozen right now, but let's ignore that fact. But want to throw that idea out there? >> Yeah, assuming you could get Twitter API access in some reliable way, then you could even do some sentiment analysis stuff and do a little bit of tweet content
analysis to get a feel for, you know, frequency of his tweets about Bitcoin, because there's a chance you might want to like double down or triple down. You know, if you get a couple of tweets in a few days, and then it could even be like price dependent, but yeah, yeah, definitely crazy idea.
Thanks, thanks. I'm gonna take that crazy idea as a compliment. Joshua, what do you have? I was just thinking you could expand that to Bitcoin Maxis in the Ordnance spaces. This is one like kind of joke people were making about like counterindicator.
Whenever they get really upset then don't them. Yeah, the more the more that people hate something the more that you should buy of it. This is all hypothetical that's not financial advice. Don't don't actually go out and do this unless you know what you're doing.
What you could even go beyond that, right? Since it's, I think one of the best capabilities of the Internet computer is the ability to basically take 100% -- since 100% of the code is living on chain, you can have a Dow
in that code. So Bob, you are saying about maybe there's some sentiment analysis you want to do, maybe there's some price analysis. You could actually have a Dow of data scientists that are the ones who control the model behind it.
and anything like that. So you could expand, you know, Peter Schiff tweets might be starting point, but you could really see how you might expand this into like an investment club or an investment thesis down. So. - Yeah, speaking of Dows, I think there's a really interesting
combination here between like meta protocols on top of Bitcoin and the full stack Dow abilities on ICP. And I think there's a way some way to combine them here that could be really interesting whether it's like governing a meta protocol via
via a DAO on the internet computer. For example, BRC 20 needs or any meta protocol needs to have some kind of consensus process around how the protocol gets updated and changes.
And right now, it's basically just a bunch of builders getting together and making decisions together about how things should happen. But there's a potentially more decentralized version where you actually codify it into a canister. And then you have, you know, on the
on chain governance on ICP that can then do some protocol governance or you could perhaps even do some meta protocol on Bitcoin that is almost like Dow votes or something like that that then impacts canister state in some way. So there are some cool Dow ICP BTC ideas.
Yeah, I've got to imagine just bringing dows to BTC is going to open some floodgates of innovation and it's really just a matter of kind of thinking through what it should look like. One use case may be so grayscale, for example, they were maybe one of the first to the scene for
Bitcoin in terms of an investment opportunity to where their great scale trust they were buying Bitcoin and then issuing shares of the trust and essentially kind of like they were just basically custodian for Bitcoin but it gave investor grade access to
Bitcoin, you know, for, you know, if you're fidelity, you're not interested in actually buying and storing and custoding your own Bitcoin, although I think actually they do all that now. But it maybe gave somebody access without having to get over that technical hurdle. It wouldn't, you know, if you think of that concept of grayscale,
You could easily dowelify that where a dowel is capable of purchasing Bitcoin, customing it itself and then creating the rules around either converting it to liquidity or what the dowel what
what's the function of that investment thesis there or investment I know what you call asset offering. So Jordan what's up? Yeah go out enough of some of what Bob was saying maybe what you're saying a little bit. So one major problem I've seen in Bitcoin over the last few years is the
of the core development teams. And there's one major client, I don't know what the percentage is, but it's a very large percentage. It's very large percentage of like the market, there's not much client diversity, like the actual software of Bitcoin.
that's running. As far as I know, there is no client written in the Rust programming language, which is very interesting to me. Imagine a DAO that is like an alternative Bitcoin core dev DAO that
is funded entirely by Bitcoin. Everybody who joins the style has a say in governing the code base of a new client, maybe written in a different language. And then it's like the most secure, most transparent, yeah, Bitcoin client. I think that'd be
You're you're recreating the definitive for Bitcoin. I love that idea. I mean, there is something to that about having a way to fund and decentralize and incentivize development on the Bitcoin blockchain. I think I think you're onto something there, Jordan.
I see feel free to request if you've got an idea or you just want to throw around some some words and talk talk Bitcoin and ICP feel free to request being a speaker. I thought I saw a bet base in here, but I think maybe they've logged in.
off, but a bet base is an Internet computer protocol app that does betting on different sports events. So you can bet an ICP right now. And I know that they've announced or I lead announced a little bit ago that when
when they plan to do basically sports betting in Bitcoin denomination using the direct integration, although I'm not sure if they'll do that or do CKBTC to basically have the efficiency
CKBTC but also sports betting and Bitcoin could be an interesting avenue to explore My my my my guess is they'll use CKBTC because if you go the direct
the direct route directly interacting with Bitcoin it just adds a lot of complexity to the point where like I don't know why you would go and do a direct like why you would actually make
calls to Bitcoin directly from a canister when you can just use CGBTC. CGBTC is going to be way faster. It's going to be way easier to use in smart contracts. I just don't see a path forward to doing. It's going to be more more expensive to do the other. So it feels like the
majority of these applications are going to go directly to CKBTC because it just makes more sense, I think. I think it might it might depend on their intended audience as well. If you're looking for a Bitcoin Maxi as your intended audience, then you're probably you'll probably prefer the direct integration I would imagine.
But yeah, I would probably echo that I would imagine most people will go to CKPTC or maybe some other token that's back to one to one with Bitcoin that's on the internet computer. Is it a tool up or is it let's see it looks like a tool up?
Have promoted you to speaker. Are you there?
perhaps it's not a tulip. I'm not sure what flower that is. Mother's Day is coming up. Actually, that's a great reminder for all the US-based listeners, Mother's Days and eight days, nine days. So keep that in mind.
See, I'm not sure if I'm not sure if flower, yeah, Tulip, we got a heart from you. You're a best speaker. Can you hear us? You might have to unmute yourself.
Sorry, I can speak to most English.
because I don't broom the elastic. Sorry, I can speak.
That's okay. Did you have an idea you wanted to throw out there or anything?
And sorry, what did you say? What did you say? I was just wondering if you had an idea you wanted to throw out there since you requested speaker.
No, I don't know how the assory okay Diego I got you a facebooker as well. What what what do you have for us? I don't know if it's a dumb idea or it's a simple word
I'm a big crypto fan and one thing I was thinking about is whether there is a code path so that I can take my staking basically because it's big.
So I go for NMS proposals, generates maturity, we take a burden to ICP, which goes into some decks, and then turns into Bitcoin. I've been doing this manually, and I wonder if there's a code path. And I have some, so no, you think I would know, but I don't. Whether that's actually the idea is automate.
So as in as in you're an NNS participant you're participating in Internet computer governance and then you want to take your governance rewards and automatically convert them to Bitcoin. Okay, a smooth process which I do manually, right? So I take maturity and then I spawn it and then I
a coinbase or something. So, one of the decks, depending on the price, and then I convert it to Bitcoin, and really if I could just do that, it is a pathway that could be done easy for the user. I think, to do it right now, I think technically you
could do it programmatically right now, you would have to go autospawn and you could autospawn yourself. It's a little tricky because it depends on how you created your nerd. But if you did like internet identity, there's a way to like add your own device so you can have like
automatic access to your neurons. And then once you have that, then you can get the ICP. You're going to have to go to some decks on ICP, I think, to do like ICP, the CKBTC. Once you have CKBTC, then you can automatically, and just programmatically interact
with the Rapper canister with the CKBTC canister and then you can go CKBTC to BTC. So I think there is a path. That's interesting because you know it's an easy pitch, stake and get Bitcoin. Right? At the end it's an easy pitch for a lot of people.
Yeah, yeah, definitely interesting. I see where your point is now, Diego, where your rewards come in the form of Bitcoin. That would be interesting. It's interesting to think about the type of person that would attract to an
NNS to the NNS. It was yeah, I think that's a great idea. You could you could even abstract it further and just say I have some Bitcoin and I want to stake and then receive rewards and
Bitcoin. It's almost like a Bitcoin staking solution. And behind the scenes they would go Bitcoin, CKBTC, ICP stake, and then you give rewards and ICP and then go back ICP, CKBTC to BTC. So you could start with BTC and get BTC yield, which is kind of cool.
That would be cool. That's interesting. You know what the blockers are. What?
Yeah, I don't know, but I love that idea. You actually got me thinking if you if you so stacks is a Bitcoin layer two and they're looking to build essentially like a synthetic Bitcoin that's backed one-to-one and controlled by
essentially like validators, people who validate, um, um, um, stake their STX token. And it just struck me that you could actually build that on the internet computer. Um, I mean, you basically were just recreating CKBTC, but you're doing it in a different, with a different, um, security model.
And so I know that they're looking at deploying that by the end of this year. I think you could probably pretty much just deploy that in the matter of a few weeks on the Internet computer. So maybe that would be a good hackathon project is look at the stacks model and see if you can replicate that.
that on the internet computer. Anyone else if you feel free to request speaker and if you've got just a crazy idea for ways we can use Bitcoin on the internet computer or the internet computer on Bitcoin? I have one more interesting one.
Well, the next person comes up. If you think about all of these meta protocols on Bitcoin, this is something I was talking with Jordan about yesterday. These meta protocols on Bitcoin don't inherit the crypto economic security of Bitcoin. So what's the incentive to like run
a Metaprotocol node where like on Ethereum, if you are an honest participant in the network, then you get rewarded. If on Bitcoin, if you're an honest miner, then you get rewarded. For these Metaprotocals, there isn't a good incentive
So this is a, I don't know if it's an existential problem, it might be a little softer than that, but this is a serious problem, like how are we going to decentralize?
all these meta protocols on Bitcoin. So one idea is you actually implement the meta protocol indexer in an ICP smart contract and you could match up, you could have some like open source indexer code and you could compare the hashes, you could know that it's running the right version
of the code and then maybe there's some additional smart contract that where you can register your indexer and then you could have some kind of incentivization scheme for these indexers. Whether it's a token, like Metaprotocol Indexers on ICP or something like that or
some meta token or some way to provide an incentive for people to come and run these meta protocols in a way that can increase the decentralization of these meta protocols. That's an interesting idea I'm playing around with right now in my head trying to see how something like that might work.
Could be pretty cool. Yeah, that is interesting. I didn't realize the Metaprotocols didn't inherit the native security of Bitcoin. They do inherit the consensus and security of Bitcoin at the messaging layer.
In terms of like the ordering of messages, ensuring that the messages are stored on Bitcoin and leverages the thick and senseless model of Bitcoin, but you don't get the crypto economic security meaning people aren't rewarded to run these nodes so you don't get
as much decentralization at the Metaproticle layer. - Oh, I see. Okay, that makes sense. - Jordan or Diego, do you guys have any thoughts on other products that could be built using Bitcoin or on the ICP?
I've been thinking a lot about dows and dows controlled by people that are easy to use because
That's something you get to because the ICP is really good at the front-end functionality being on chain and the Dow being able to control it. I think the ICP is really good for Dow. Dow is a good web experience and allowing people to vote on what to do with the treasury or pool bitcoins.
Yeah, I do feel like Dows have really been more of an altcoin thing, you know, whether it's Ethereum or anything else. And I do believe I 100% agree that it seems like with the internet computers since you can do everything in a smart contract.
It makes sense that this could be how dals get brought to Bitcoin and what might that look like? I like how you're saying about in terms of the incentive structure for maintaining these meta protocols and there could be ways to use dals.
as an incentive structure for that. So yeah, so I think you're right, the Diego Dows on Dows governing either Bitcoin Treasuries or Bitcoin Co, that interacts directly with Bitcoin could be revolutionary.
Another cool down idea. Some people are inscribing HTML files as inscriptions on Bitcoin via ordinal theory. And so you have even like some games where someone puts
or Doom, someone put Doom on Bitcoin and there are other fun little HTML games. I think it could be really cool to have some kind of backend database down on the Internet computer. Essentially, it
would just be a canister and the canister's sole purpose is to receive requests from these HTML inscriptions. So in your HTML inscription, there would be some kind of like game save code, some standard code where you could actually then go into
In inscription that's been inscribed on Bitcoin you could interact with the inscription via some kind of explorer on the web and then when you have some kind of high score there's like a save button in the actual inscription that then saves to this decentralized data store.
on the Internet computer, that's basically this leaderboard of sorts. I don't know if there are technical hurdles to doing something like this, but I think it could be really cool to have these blocks of HTML, these kind of components that can then store state on an ICP.
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean that's exactly the type of innovation that I think just using ICP as more of like a backend for some of the board. Like a database for a game running on Bitcoin.
Let me think back to the days playing Doom and now I'm feeling extremely nostalgic. That was the first game that really caught my attention of like, "Holy cow, this is a lot of fun." Doom is now stored on every full Bitcoin node on Planet Earth.
So if that doesn't make you nostalgic, I don't know what will. I love it. And there's no better game to do that with. In fact, if they can store like a Napster client on a Bitcoin node, then I think at that point, my late teenage
years would be fully complete. Here, I want to kind of going off of thinking through like Constitution Dow, so kind of keeping up with this Dow theme. I've always thought that Bitcoiners should commemorate El Salvador
the first country to adopt a Bitcoin standard. Although I guess you still have cash as a currency as well, but accepting Bitcoin as legal tender, I feel like there should be a statue or some sort of art piece to come
to give the people of El Salvador as like recognition of the stuff that they took. And so you could almost just follow the same model as Constitution Dow, except with Bitcoin, except Bitcoin donations and then have an
Internet computer DAO that manages those donations and provides voting power based off of those donations. And then the DAO's existence is really to determine what is that piece of art look like, where is it going to go, who's going to create it, how much is it going to cost, and then they can
disperse their donation treasury in accordance to that. So I think that could also be a way to leverage the Internet computer to accomplish like just a one-off project in a liquid democracy manner.
I think we're probably getting to the end if you had an idea and you were too nervous. It's it's speak now or forever hold your truth. I hope this was a useful Twitter space. If you're a developer and you've listened to this far and you're like there's some really
I'm going to start building one of them. I highly recommend you check out the encode Biddle hackathon that's being put on between encode and affinity at rewards. Basically the structure is that you
should be using either direct bitcoin integration or ckbtc in an internet computer app. That's pretty much the extent of the constraints. You should find a link to that in the comment section of this Twitter space.
And if not, you can just Google search and code, that's build, but with the L and the D flip. And yeah, is there any closing remarks that any of you gentlemen want to end this with?
I think the only thing that I'll say is I'll be in Miami for the ICP community conference. There's also a Bitcoin Builders conference happening that week and there's an Ordinal's 2023 conference and then obviously BTC Miami. So I'll be there for all of those. If you're going to be there, let's let's connect. You know, let's
talk Bitcoin, ICP, Ordinals. And we will be building some tooling on the, on the Bionic side in order to kind of jumpstart people into, into building with Ordinals. If, if you're interested in taking that route on
on the BTC ICP side for this hackathon. Things like having an indexer, having an inscription API, and being able to wrap ordinals on the ICP, having some nice front-end interface to wrap BTC to CKBTC. So goal is to provide a lot of these kind of tooling.
tooling building blocks to jumpstart people into experimentation. So you don't have to like go in and set up your own full BTC node and set up your own org client on top and sync everything and then write indexers on top of that. You can just jump straight into building really cool internet computer applications that can
and then leverage wrapped ordinals in CKBTC, for example. So we're putting together a bunch of tooling there. So look for that here in the next couple of weeks. Should be done before Hackathon starts. Awesome. So if anyone wanted to get in touch with you or learn more about Bionic, how should they go about
that. Yeah, you can just DM me on Twitter. I'm pretty responsive to my DMs. So feel free to connect DM me whether it's ICP questions or ordinal questions or whatever. Happy to help. Awesome. Thanks Bob. And Jordan, how can people learn more about divergence and yourself as well?
Yeah, so, Aisle is our TypeScript canister development kit. This lets you basically build some of our projects in TypeScript. Kybra is our Python canister development kit. We are working to ensure that basically any Bitcoin functionality or CKBTC functionality
At least, the core basic stuff is going to be there for you. It really should be there now to a great extent. We're just going to double check everything. And yeah, just Twitter. I'm last MGS, Demergent Labs is our company, Demergent Labs, you can find us on GitHub or Twitter. And yep.
Awesome. I appreciate both your times and Look forward to as things develop ladies and gentlemen. I think I think they were at least I'm gonna say a half dozen million dollar ideas mentioned on this Twitter space so spread the word
and I encourage all of you to start building and turn some of these ideas into action and I look forward to seeing how they look. So I appreciate everyone's time and I bid everyone farewell.