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Bitcoin Censorship w/ Casey Rodarmor | The Ordinal Show
Recorded: Sept. 10, 2025 Duration: 5:28:28Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. you Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
You see Santa Claus, she's got a mouth to be.
Now my auntie fly, I can't remember being a bee's tree. Thank you. Show me love
You've got your hand on the bottom down
Show enough Sure enough
You've got your hand on the button now Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Oh Oh Oh
Oh I'm a botanist now, I'm a botanist, I'm a botanist, everything is good.
Good evening, Bitcoiners!
That's right, you're here at the Ordinals Show.
Welcome back to our regulars, hello to our new friends.
If this is your first time, The Ordinals Show is a live podcast,
hosted twice per week on X Spaces,
starting 10.30 on ET Monday mornings and 6.30pm ET Wednesday nights,
going for multiple hours, covering various topics,
all about building new cool shit on Bitcoin.
Ordinals are not just a new kind of NFT in Bitcoin,
but a massive movement of people who care about growing Bitcoin's adoption and bringing BTC to the masses. More important
than the protocol itself, Ordinals is a cultural shift that's attracting new developers and users,
incredible artists, and accelerating innovation. I'm Trevor.BTC, managing partner of the Bitcoin
Frontier Fund and co-founder of Pizza Ninjas. I'm here with my co-host, the king of BTC,
Co-founder of Pizza Ninjas.
I'm here with my co-host, the king of BTC,
Sparta Leonidas, our in-house NFT history expert
and co-founder of Ordon.io.
And today on this stage, we are joined by Casey Rodemar,
himself, Mac Tuxedo, and many more cool people
who come to our show, guys.
So I am super excited to be here.
I am glad that you are all here with me.
Pinned to the top is a post that lets everyone know
that we're live.
Please take a second, look at the post at the top,
give it a like, give it a repost,
show some love for the algorithms
and welcome more people into the space.
Also smash that purple button
in the bottom right-hand corner of your screen,
throw your comments and questions in there
or read your questions throughout the show.
Don't forget to follow at The Ordinal Show,
subscribe to our Substack Newsletter,
link in the bio of our account.
We post weekly recaps in the newsletter and RSVP for future shows, as well as a condensed version of the show
on Apple and Spotify podcasts. So you never miss what's happening on the leading edge
of Bitcoin. And with that, I'm going to turn to Leonidas to introduce today's show.
All right. So I'm going to try to tee this up the best I can here. I saw somebody
who's in the dog army replied to me asking who Casey was,
so I figured maybe we should give, like, for, like, newcomers who, like,
don't know who Casey is or something, like, let's make sure that everybody
understands, you know, the importance of this conversation and why when Casey
weighs in on these things, like, we should probably be listening to him.
He put out a wonderful thread,
which spurred me to just ping Casey
and see if he wanted to come up
and basically talk about it in more depth
and break it down.
So that's basically what we're going to do here
in a moment.
But I first wanted to tee up for people
who don't know,
about two and a half years ago,
Casey released a protocol on Bitcoin
called the Ordnals Protocol.
It's a way to basically store NFTs on the Bitcoin network.
And yeah, ever since that moment, there has been a little bit of a culture war going on on Bitcoin
with some people calling that activity spam and other people like this show and the listeners of
this show celebrating and enjoying that we can use Bitcoin for more than just money.
And this actually dates all the way back to the Operatorne Wars over a decade ago,
where there was like an initial cultural battle around, you know, the future of Bitcoin,
how it should be used and the proper uses of the network and whether censorship
and filters are a good or bad thing.
So we're just we're continuing a very long legacy of debate, spirited debate in Bitcoin,
which is awesome.
And it's a decentralized system.
And, you know, we love the debate. We love these conversations. And we have Casey here
with us today to basically share his opinions on this. So I'm just going to tee up the specific
events now of the last couple of months. So this guy, Luke Dash Jr., who has been running this
Bitcoin Knotts client of Bitcoin that is an alternative to Bitcoin Core. He's been getting a lot of adoption of that client over the past couple of months,
basically creating a little movement of people that don't like spam and stirring people up
to basically call everything on Bitcoin other than BTC spam is how they frame it.
And he's been getting a little bit of traction there, you could say.
And yeah, basically, I think there was some pressure. And there's now a bit of a divide in the kind of Bitcoin ecosystem where there's fragmentation of different groups. Bitcoin Core
is basically taking a stance that's a little bit different than what Bitcoin Nots is taking,
and we can discuss that in more depth. But basically, on September 5th, so this is five days ago, I believe last Thursday, Adam Back, the kind of OG Bitcoin
cryptographer, basically put out a thread. And I'm just going to read the first two posts here
so people kind of understand what teed up a lot of the conversation over the past week. He posts,
Bitcoin is owned by humanity. The protocol developers are
stewards and need consensus from users to change it materially. Bitcoin is about money. Spam has
no place in the time chain. What defaults the Bitcoin core project puts in the reference client
matter in this? In May, there were 88 million JPEGs in the chain. Now, four months later,
there are 105 million JPEGs, a 20% increase. In May, 7,000 BTC in fees had been paid at 100K Bitcoin.
That's 700 million or an average of $8 per JPEG.
They're primarily in taproot inscriptions, obviously specifically calling out the Ordnance
Protocol, calling it directly spam.
And yeah, we had a debate with a laser eye sort of-guy, Chris Guida, on this show on Monday
that I'm sure many of you listened to.
It was a spirited debate.
We really appreciated Chris coming through.
It was a little bit of an unfair debate, and I'll give him credit.
He was a 1-versus-12 type situation and held his own pretty well, and we really appreciate
him coming up here.
But ultimately, I have to give props to someone on stage here cynthia who you know you know this
was a three-hour debate i mean rindell was just going at this guy um you know shinobi was going
at this guy trevor was going at this guy we were all trying to crack this guy cynthia comes up here
within 30 seconds of debating this guy. Cynthia
has him cornered. He rage quits. He messages me upset. And that was it. That was the end of the
debate. So I'm sure everybody who's a listener to the show obviously is kind of aware of that
happening two days ago. Since that moment, basically, I saw this really honestly extremely logical and concise thread that casey put out last
night that i'm about to pin above and i was like hell yeah casey's you know talking about this like
i know casey has thoughts on this stuff but you know is uh often someone who doesn't want to uh
you know say something unless it needs to be said so i'm gonna pin the thread up here we're gonna
read this and break it down in a second but But I hope this is catching everybody up into the context that led to the conversation here tonight.
So, yeah, basically, without further ado, guys, Casey, you're out of our welcome.
Welcome back to the Ordinal Show.
I think this is maybe your fourth time here.
Yo, what's up?
Glad to be back.
Glad to be talking to the DJs directly.
You know, it's a good time.
Awesome.
Awesome, awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So I,
you know, if there's no opposition, are we cool to just break down this thread,
you know, post by post here and kind of get your thoughts on each of these things that
you talked about last night? Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. So pretty much you posted a
thread called filters are a bad idea. Okay. Somewhat self-explanatory, but can you break down for people what is the filter?
Why should people care about filters in Bitcoin? Should we have them? Should we have more filters?
Maybe explain what a filter is for people who aren't aware.
Yeah, absolutely. So the Bitcoin nodes have two sets of rules. They have consensus and policy.
So consensus is rules that all nodes must agree to, to be on the same network.
And these cover what is and is not valid to appear in a mind block.
valid to appear in a mined block. The reason that all nodes have to agree on this is that if Bitcoin
nodes disagree about the validity of a block containing transactions, they will fork. They
will just no longer be on the same network. They will no longer be on Bitcoin. So this is consensus.
In common use, when a group of people have consensus, it means that there's some sort of
like overwhelming agreement. And that's why the word consensus is used for this. So consensus
is what nodes think is valid in a block. Now, nodes have a lot of other things that they do
and other rules that they enforce. And these other rules are called policy. So anything that Bitcoin nodes
can sort of disagree about and still be on the same network is policy. And one of the functions,
you know, we talk about Bitcoin, Bitcoin, the Bitcoin network. It's a bunch of nodes connected
to each other. And they relay two things. Primarily, they relay blocks, valid blocks once they're found, and they also relay transactions
before they go into blocks.
The reason that the Bitcoin network relays transactions is so that you want your transactions
to eventually get to a miner and you also want anybody to be able to spin up a miner and so we
have this relay network where you don't need to like pick a miner to send it to
you send it to all of the nodes that you're connected to and they send it to
all of the nodes that they're connected to and anybody can start a pool or a
miner and have a full node and get transactions that way so the relay
network is what keeps mining decentralized because it means that
nobody's submitting mass transactions individual miners. They're just submitting to the relay
network. Everybody gets these transactions. So one of the mechanisms of policy, and again,
policy is those things that individual nodes can disagree about, is which transactions they relay
before they get into a block.
So these are unconfirmed, unmined transactions.
And there are actually many, many, many different kinds of policy.
Some of them are to work around possible exploits.
I'm probably going to get this wrong, but you can't have a,
I think like 64-byte transaction.
64-byte transactions are not allowed via policy because they can trick light clients in certain cases to think that a different transaction was mined.
So there's no strong economic incentive to mine these very small transactions.
They're disallowed by policy. Also, certain kinds of transactions, which would be very expensive
to get into a block or to verify those are also disallowed by policy.
Another category of policy, these are all filters.
Another category of policy, these are all filters. These are all filtering different things.
These are all filtering different things.
One filter that we've had for a very long time is a filter on oversized op returns.
So op returns go into Bitcoin outputs, like when you sort of create these bundles of Bitcoin
that you can later spend, they are controlled by a Bitcoin script, which is a scripting language that
determines at spend time whether or not you're allowed to spend.
The most common opcodes in Bitcoin script, like the most common checks, are checking
that you've made a signature.
That's a very, very common kind of script.
There is another opcode called opreturn, which immediately marks the output as not being spendable.
And afterwards, Bitcoin just ignores anything
that comes after the script.
And this was created as a way for people
to be able to embed data in transactions
in a non-harmful way.
The reason that an opreturn is less harmful
than other ideas is that once a full
node sees that the output starts with op return, it never needs to track that output ever again.
It knows that there's no way to validly spend that output. So it knows there's no way for a
transaction spending that output to get into a block. And so it can just forget about it, right?
Like there's no additional cost beyond the transaction size to data embedded in that way.
So for a long, long time, we have had a limit.
Oh, yeah.
So the policy on transactions, a transaction that a full node will relay, it's called standardness.
So Bitcoin Core only relays certain standard types of transactions. And for a long
time, a transaction with up to one operaturn with up to 80 bytes of data in that operaturn was
considered standard. So if you had more than one operaturn, that was considered non-standard.
Or if you had an operaturn with more than 80 bytes in it, that was also considered non-standard.
And so this was created as a sort of a weird compromise position to try to guide people away from more harmful ways of stuffing data in a transaction.
And I'll just give an example of a more harmful way of stuffing data in a transaction.
of a more harmful way of stuffing data in a transaction.
You could use a multi-sig output, which
is an output which can only be spent by signatures
from multiple keys, and just use fake pub keys.
So each pub key is like 32 bytes, I think.
And so you would say, oh, this is like a 10 of 10 multi-sig,
and you need signatures from these 10 pubkeys.
But those 10 pubkeys are actually fake.
They're actually just there to store data.
And this is much more harmful because a full node doesn't know whether or
not that multi-sig is actually a legitimate spend or if it's just data.
And so it will have to keep that multi-sig around in
the more expensive storage of the UTXO set forever.
And it doesn't know that it's fake data.
So the opportune standardness limit was created.
This has just been around for a while.
So yes, that is what a filter is.
In a very long winded way, that is a filter.
So individual nodes have these different policies
of what transactions they
will relay before they get into a block and blocking certain kinds of transactions that is
filtering okay awesome and you you already kind of touched on one of the points that you made here
which in this thread you said filtering oper turns drives users to more harmful alternatives
like embedding data and variable multi-sig outputs, which permanently blows the UTXO set. You were obviously very thoughtful when you created the
Ordinals protocol and the Ruins protocol and specifically put data in places in Bitcoin
that you thought was a good place for the Bitcoin network to store this data, right? There's
obviously many places to put data, some very harmful, some kind of in between, and some
pretty ideal. Could you maybe explain those choices and why you put those things there?
And then if all of a sudden, let's go to a dystopian world where like there's massive
censorship and everybody runs knots and all the miners run knots, what that then pushes us to
have to basically do for the next best and the next best version if it's this cat and mouse
blocking game, which nobody actually thinks is going to happen, but people want to have happen apparently.
Yeah, totally. So inscriptions, which are sort of like an NFT protocol,
they store a relatively large amount of data. And so I designed the protocol to store that data in what is called a is in this thing called the witness, specifically in Taproot witnesses.
The reason being that it's sort of annoying to stick things into the Taproot witness because you need two transactions.
You need to commit and a reveal for technical reasons.
You can't do it in just one transaction, but it gets a very large discount.
It gets a 75% discount relative to data outside of the witness,
and so it's sort of ideal for NFTs.
The other thing about the protocol
is that once an inscription is created, you can transfer
it with a normal Bitcoin transaction.
You just sort of, to transfer it, you manipulate the order of the inputs and the outputs of
the transaction.
And so later transactions don't need to store, don't need to stick data in transactions.
So this commit and reveal, this two transaction thing
that you have to do, you only have
to do for creation of inscriptions.
You don't have to do it for transfer of inscriptions.
So that seems like a pretty good trade-off.
For runes, which are a fungible token protocol,
they don't need to store a lot of data.
We worked pretty hard to make the protocol very compact,
to have a very, very compact encoding.
And it turned out that it was actually pretty easy to keep it within the 80 byte operaturn limit.
And as a result, we put the data in operaturns.
So you don't need to do a commit and reveal for all runes transactions. You do actually need a commit
reveal because of the anti-sniping, anti-token sniping functionality that we built into it.
But for later transactions, runes transactions, you do need to put data into the Bitcoin transaction.
You do need to stick data into the transaction.
But because it's in an opportune, which you can do in a single transaction,
you don't need to do a commit and a reveal.
So the two protocols just kind of have different goals, inscriptions, lots of data, but only one time.
And then runes, a small amount of data, but
on an ongoing basis. And so that's why inscriptions use taproot witnesses, and runes uses opperturn.
If you aren't able to stick data in these sort of two less harmful places, it does kind of drive people to use these
fake outputs. The kinds of fake outputs that I've heard people use are bare multisig outputs,
which I sort of went into before where you just have a lot of pub keys and you say, okay, like,
you know, 10 of, this is a, you know, 10 of 10 multisig or like a 20 of 20 multi-sig.
I have no idea how big they get.
But actually all the pub keys are fake, so they just store data.
The other one is fake taproot outputs.
I think that these just use a like invalid what's called a witness or not a witness,
the taproot program or or sorry, segwit
program, an invalid segwit program to store data. And the problem with these is that nodes
have to store them. The set of unspent transaction outputs, it's called the UTXO set, the unspent
transaction output set, and nodes have to keep that around. They have to track that
so that when they see a new block, they have to track that. So that
when they see a new block, they can check whether all of the transactions within that block are
valid spend. So that's sort of expensive data. So yeah, you just kind of push people towards
worse ways of storing data. Right. Well, a lot of the explanations there there i hope people were able to kind of follow along
casey's logic and ultimately uh you know i think casey is first and foremost a bitcoiner
and yeah i mean i've kind of looked at this as well and it's like casey understands bitcoin a
lot better than i do but from all the places that you could possibly store data for these
two protocols i think like fairly logically, Casey put this in the best
possible way to keep, you know, Bitcoin decentralized long term. And yeah, like great,
great design decisions. And I think you pretty well illustrated there, you know, what the like
obvious thing that happens is if they try to like block, you know, the taproot witness or, you know, get rid of Op Return or these sort of things.
All that happens is basically there's like the stance way of doing it.
There's all these other ways of doing it that you're basically just pushing DGENs towards, which I think, you know, most of us...
Oh, stamps. May all of you forgive me for uttering that name.
You haven't heard that in a while, have you?
Yeah, so the bottom line is like people will
get pushed in directions that probably aren't great for bitcoin and i think i speak for pretty
much everyone including the knots people when i say like nobody actually wants that to be the case
right like we're all in agreement there uh and yet like some people are kind of like not understanding that there are kind of when you do something, there's like second order effects of what you do.
And a lot of these people in these debates, I find, are not able to kind of think in terms of second order effects.
You make another really good point here, Casey.
So you say nonstandard transactions can be submitted directly to pools.
transactions can be submitted directly to pools. This makes mining less competitive since users
will only bother submitting to the largest pools and smaller pools will earn less revenue. What
do you mean by that? What are you talking about? Yeah. So as I mentioned, nodes have these two
sets of rules, policy and consensus. And because filters are policy level only, they can, even filtering nodes, will accept blocks that contain those transactions that would otherwise be filtered on the relay network.
They will accept those transactions as valid.
Transactions can't be broadcast over the peer-to-peer relay network that everybody has access to, including all miners.
They will submit those transactions directly to pools.
And in fact, this is what we see at the moment.
Pools, almost every major pool, I think, has some facilities for directly submitting transactions to those pools,
bypassing filters and bypassing the
peer-to-peer network. And the problem with this is that if some volume of users are submitting
transactions directly to pools, then let's say you are like a startup miner. You want to have a new
pool or a new miner. You're going to buy some power and buy some Bitcoin miners or whatever,
you won't have access to that stream of revenue because you just won't be on the list of miners that users submit transactions to.
Users will submit transactions to the top third or two thirds or like at the most, like 80% of hash rate,
right. But because there's diminishing returns and more work that come with submitting transactions
to more and more pools, they just won't bother submitting it to the smaller pools,
which will make those smaller pools less revenue. And so make, make filtering overall decrease the competitiveness of smaller miners. We
really want all the transactions, all of the candidate transactions that could make it
into a block to be seen over the peer-to-peer relay network and be available to anybody who wants to construct a candidate block and start hashing on it.
So it's kind of like, I feel like I contradict myself a little bit. I'm like, well, filters don't
work. And if they did work, they would, you know, also cause people to, you know, do these bad
things. But it's like kind of true, like, it's very hard to get them to work and even if you do get them to work um it will make mining less competitive so it's uh yeah it's kind of lose lose
okay and then also in sort of the reverse here it's like there are a set of filters right in in
bitcoin core and a lot of them are there for like logical reasons. Some of them potentially are going to be loosened a
little bit. I think Trevor on stage here is currently the, his company is currently the
leader, the largest Bitcoin block ever, largest four mega ever. Currently he's in the first place
position with a massive, you know, four megabyte inscription that he, you know, went around Bitcoin
core, obviously directly to a miner. I've worked with
miners and mining pools directly also to do large airdrops with Operaturn. I believe even
Memento Mori KCU did a non-standard transaction that was then used by LIFO FIFO to bypass Bitcoin
Core, go directly to a miner. So this already happens
to some degree. And some of these rules maybe make sense, and some of them don't make sense.
I'm curious, before we move to this next point here, what are your thoughts around
increasing the off return limit? And actually, there are filters now, even decreasing the amount
of filters in certain instances that make sense.
What are your thoughts about that? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a variety of filters for a variety
of reasons, and some of them make sense and some of them don't really make sense.
One example of a filter that, God, is it a filter? So yeah, I think it is a filter. So if you construct certain kinds
of transactions that do a lot of signature validation, you can get these transactions
that are incredibly slow to validate. I think like minutes on a modern piece of hardware,
you're just like, create this giga large transaction and you like hash it over and over again. And if such a transaction got into a block, it would be very
slow to validate and then be in the history forever. And it'd be super annoying. So the
reason why I think that this kind of filter is a good idea is because there isn't really like the
strong, broad economic incentive to mine such a transaction, right? It's just nobody is like,
nobody is like, you know, their use case doesn't work because they can't mine an incredibly
expensive to validate transaction. So there's not really like any economic incentive to
mine it. And so the filter is just kind of like a nudge and nobody is really too motivated to change the default. And so it's like, it's fine. Like, who cares? The filters on very large transactions, like larger than 400
kilobytes or like witness, witness, witness bites or whatever is, I think that's there because
I mean, somebody from Bitcoin Core should really talk about this, but I believe that that's there because uh i mean uh somebody from bitcoin core should really talk
about this but i believe that that's there because if large large transactions it's harder to do the
block packing algorithm like when you're picking transactions to fit into a block if there are very
large transactions having a picking a block which pays like more fees gets like
exponentially harder, you need to do more and more work to do an optimal block. So that's
like another kind of filter. That's like, I mean, neither here nor there, like people
really love these four meggers. I love four meggers. I think they're great. So that's
something. People don't make a lot of four meggggers though. So it's like, well, I guess this is sort of like a sort of a good, a good like broad point is that if filters are like a nudge and they're sort of working, like kind of who cares, you know, but once filters start to really break down, then they, then they start to do more harm than good. So Bitcoin Core as an open source project that anybody can modify it,
anybody can run whatever code they want on the Bitcoin Core network,
or the Bitcoin network, I should say,
and anybody can submit transactions to a miner directly.
Filters work when they're kind of nudges,
when they kind of like nudge behavior in one direction.
But once they're not working,
they really just are sort of pointless
and you should just remove them.
You know, once transactions are consistently
getting into blocks that violate the filters,
then they're doing more harm than good.
There's also, I think I get into this later.
Do I?
Yeah, so filtering transactions
also slows down block relay because if a new block is mined that contains transactions that you haven't seen yet, your node has to make a bunch of round trip requests to get all of the transactions in that block before you are able to validate that block and pass it on to your peers.
are able to validate that block and pass it on to your peers.
And so as a result, if transactions are being
filtered that eventually makes it into blocks,
then block relay slows down.
And when block relay is slow, that actually
hurts smaller miners more than larger miners.
So again, filters kind of work as a kind of nudge.
But once they start breaking down,
then they're not a great idea. And I think
the reality is that, yeah, filters are breaking down. The operaturn filter is kind of breaking
down. Miners are all running direct submission. We see these things in blocks all the time.
So yeah, just nuke them. Okay. Last point here, last question here before we move to the next point that you make um i'm sure you've
watched your uncommon goods uh the ruined zero uncommon goods mints taking over the bitcoin
network over 20 of all bitcoin transactions in the past year and a half since the having have been
uncommon goods no shit bro 20 20 20 that's wack wacky that is some wacky shit you also see these
like chains of unconfirmed transactions which are nutty to me you see like these like 20
unconfirmed transactions each one is a mint of uncommon goods spending to some output that
itself is a mint of uncommon goods like 20 long it's like the uncommon goods bitcoin transaction centipede but yeah that's fucking crazy that's a mint of uncommon goods, like 20 long. It's like the uncommon goods,
Bitcoin transaction centipede. But yeah, that's fucking crazy. That's a lot of transactions.
Yeah. So interestingly, all of this activity led to some interesting events. Okay. So just for people who aren't aware, basically there was this one sat per V byte for as a basically filter in Bitcoin core,
where if you broadcast the transaction, it's less than one sat per V byte, it would get
filtered out.
And what happened was people went around Bitcoin core.
They went directly to miners.
And these people that were mass minting and more seriously trying to take a position in
uncommon goods were going to miners and saying, hey, your blocks are half
full, they're half, you know, empty.
There's got a lot of space in there.
Would you like some free money?
And they'd say, sure, let's do 0.5 sat per V byte for your uncommon goods.
And people were able to basically get uncommon goods for half the price.
And I think it created this asymmetry that, quite frankly, is unfair and felt like exactly
proving the point of exactly what you're saying, that, you frankly, is unfair and felt like exactly proving the
point of exactly what you're saying, that, you know, these kind of wealthy, more institutional
people mincing uncommon goods had access to get uncommon goods at a rate that was lesser
than what we all easily have access to without significant effort.
And the result of this was Bitcoin Core saw this activity and then said, hey, let's lower the floor of SAP for VBytes down to 0.1 so that people will actually keep using Bitcoin Core and stop going around us.
And I think this is like a perfect example of one, illustrating exactly what you're saying.
exactly what you're saying. But two, I mean, I think we should all just take a moment to realize
like it's pretty wild that, you know, Casey, you know, we've all talked about upgrading Bitcoin
and like doing all this stuff and changes to Bitcoin. As far as I'm aware, in the past two
and a half years, Casey's the only one here to actually have made any kind of significant change
in Bitcoin. And we now have these 0.1 sat per V byte transactions going through like constantly.
And, you know, hopefully we don't stay here forever where it's needed.
But you literally changed Bitcoin and you kind of did it in this like weird game theory
move where like you set the groundwork for this like a year ago.
And then all of a sudden, you know, we see this impact a year later.
I mean, do you think about that at all?
We haven't really heard you comment on that in any way.
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty wacky.
I sort of view myself as just some random programmer.
You know what I mean?
Like, just sort of like basement dweller, you know,
twiddling on the computer.
I didn't have some like
grand, grand, grand vision. And in fact, a lot of things I didn't think were going to work,
or I had no idea what sort of impact that I had. But yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty,
it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. Especially seeing the, you know, amount of runes transactions and the Bitcoin renaissance.
But I think really that it was all this pent up demand, you know what I mean?
And people just needed a set of protocols that just didn't suck.
I mean, all the other protocols protocols they just kind of suck for like
obvious reasons you know like they're just poorly designed or like they have like built-in tokens
that you have to buy if you want to do them so really i think all credit is due to uh the dgens
you know what i mean uh i've made like three runes transactions total in my entire life. So yeah, really the DGENs are the ones to blame slash
to get the credit. Shout out to all the DGENs listening to this space. So
your next point here, you say filters don't work. You need an incredibly high percentage
of filtering nodes to reliably prevent filter transactions from making it across the relay
network. And even then, anyone can bypass it with direct submission. This directly contradicts a kind of conspiracy belief
that I see prevailing in the knots ideology
that if they hit this magic number of like 50%,
the majority of nodes on Bitcoin are running knots,
then all of a sudden they've succeeded
and now we can't do inscriptions and runes and meme coins.
Do they really say 50%?
I don't want to put any words in anyone's mouth because i'm not in tuned enough but i think there are people the general belief go ahead j-dog no i was just saying 51 attack baby
yeah the general belief is that i think a lot of these people casey are obviously not super
technical um i'm sure luke understands this stuff a lot better but a lot of these people, Casey, are obviously not super technical. I'm sure Luke understands this stuff a lot better.
But a lot of these people that follow Luke, I don't think have a great understanding.
And I do think that they believe that just a lot of nodes is doing something.
And you've made the point that there's a difference between an economically relevant node and an economically irrelevant node.
And I'm sort of curious here, your thoughts on this point that you made around is not
actually making a difference on Bitcoin, I guess is the question, cannot actually stop
spam.
I think a lot of these people genuinely believe that we just keep getting people to run
and then all of a sudden inscriptions stop.
Do you think that's how this works?
Yeah, not really.
So Bitcoin is, as you might have heard, a censorship resistant network.
And that censorship resistance is built in in all levels, both the blocks and proof of work and all this stuff, but also in transaction relays.
So I think that you've got to make sense of what a sense of you know what a single node filtering transactions
does or even a broad part of the network i'll just sort of describe what a node goes through to
make connections to other peers to sort of like populate its network so let's say you've got
like a fresh computer from best best buy you got your like you know your dell laptop for like 20 bucks
more than 20 bucks i guess uh you know like 300 500 how much you could a computer cost michael 30
so you get your computer from uh best buy you come home you plug it in put it on the internet
and you download a fresh copy of bitcoin Core. And the first thing that your node
is going to do is it's going to contact a bunch of what are called DNS seeds or seed nodes.
So your node starting out doesn't know any other Bitcoin nodes. And so it's got to ask these
certain well-known Bitcoin nodes for some initial, an initial for its initial
connections. Let me just find out DNS nodes, Bitcoin, peers, curious how many DNS nodes there
are. But they're like, I don't know, 10, 16, something like that. Anyways, no no idea i'd have to look it up so they they contact these um you know this
like handful of nodes and uh those nodes give them connections to the network but also those nodes
tell them about a whole bunch of other bitcoin nodes that those peers have seen and every time
you connect to a new node um you're going to gossip with that node about peers
that you've seen. Your nodes are configured by default to make eight, I think it's eight,
outgoing connections to other nodes and accept, I think, any number of incoming connections or a very high number of incoming connections
from other nodes. So even just at eight different connections, if you get a transaction and you
think about it from the point of view of the non-filtering node, if it's connected to eight
nodes, in order for its transaction to get out of the network,
those eight nodes are all going to have to be filtering that transaction.
So filters are the kind of thing that they don't work until you have a very, very high
percentage of the network that is filtering. I think Portland HODL did a little test.
And I think you have to get 95% of nodes or even higher
to reliably keep transactions out of the Bitcoin Core
network.
There's also something kind of weird,
which goes back to this block relay delay, this
new block relay delay, where if a peer is sending you a block more quickly than other
peers, you'll say, hey, I've seen new blocks from that peer faster than other peers.
I'm going to prioritize that connection.
And because filtering slows down block relay, you might see this like sort of connected,
more highly connected subset of non-filtering peers, which is kind of interesting.
This is sort of a niche effect or like a marginal effect,
but I think it's pretty interesting.
So anyways, yeah, Bitcoin is designed
for censorship resistance,
and it's basically just everybody's connected to everybody.
You know, you have eight outgoing connections,
you have any number of incoming connections.
It's a very well-connected network.
And for your transaction to get through a miner,
there only has to be one path
through any number of nodes to that miner. So yeah represent a whole lot of economic activity
that people are just kind of mad about spam. And so they are spinning up nodes that like don't
really do anything. They're still like transacting on Coinbase, like their nodes not really doing
anything. It's just sort of like a, like a protest. But yeah, filtering doesn't really work.
Bitcoin, very censorship resistant at all levels of the network.
You would need so many filters before you started to actually impact nodes going, transactions
going through the network.
And also, like, let's say, let's say nots gets to like, you know, like some crazy percentage of the network. Of course, there would be a backlash, where
people would be like, Alright, well, this sucks, my transactions are getting filtered,
let's start running Bitcoin core version 30 nodes that by default will relay these transactions.
And it would be very easy to you know get the uh percentage of filtering
nodes back down you know um i think the dgen army is probably pretty pretty strong so yeah you've
got to you've got to filter a whole lot and then you've got to keep filtering you've got to keep
that percentage up and i think it's just it's it's not going to happen it's uh it's it's not going to
work you just it's just the math is bad And I think your point about people not thinking through the second order effects is apt.
I think people are like, well, I don't like this thing, so I'm going to do the thing against it.
But they just don't think about the second order effects.
They just don't think how things respond to their actions.
They just sort of want to do the one step thinking
and then like call it a day, you know,
and go grill or whatever.
Actually, no, they're doing the opposite of grilling.
They're angry posting on Twitter.
But yeah, like can't filter.
And, you know, even if you do filter,
it's gonna be really hard to keep
that very high percentage of filtering nodes.
Okay, so we had this guy, Chris Guida.
He's kind of a Lightning Network guy on the show on Monday.
And he had a specific view.
He obviously doesn't speak for all Nots people.
But he believes that, let's say, theoretically, this world where like knots is used by all miners and
knots is like uh you know 99 of the network or whatever he believes that what should happen is
there should be a thousand x premium in fees put on runes and ordinals transactions and he argued
that because you could still technically pay the thousand X fee that it didn't count as
censorship. And he really spent the entire three hours trying to not get put in a corner
that he was pro censorship on Bitcoin. Do you think there's credibility to his argument or do
you believe that specific groups of people trying to stop, you know, these transactions is a form or an attempt at censorship.
Yeah, interesting question.
Like ultimately, I don't know if questions like these are like, you know, what is quote
unquote censorship is super valuable.
But yeah, I mean, like, I think it is censorship. It kind of doesn't matter whether
you're blocking it or just making it exorbitantly expensive. I mean, I think the, you know, the bad
thing about censorship is that people can't, you know, do whatever activities that they, you know,
want to do, or whatever, you know, speech or, you speech or messages they want to send.
And yeah, I don't think that you can take the position that making something a thousand times
more expensive is not censorship. Or maybe you can take that position just as like a verbal
sort of like, well, it's technically not censorship, right? But if blocking transactions, certain kinds of speech entirely is censorship and is bad,
then making them very, very expensive, maybe it's not censorship, but it's still bad on the same
like axis. You know what I mean? Like, so if you think censorship is bad, regardless of whether you think making making these transactions very expensive is censorship, you sort of also have to think that it's bad for the same reasons that you think that you that you think censorship is bad.
like what's like right and wrong and like blah blah blah blah blah but generally i try to i think
i think the most compelling arguments are arguments that are based on just sort of like
logic and reason and facts and also like outcomes that we can all agree with um if knots was a huge
percentage of trends of the network and um many many miners were running not and were filtering
these transactions and were trying to charge a 1000x premium on these transactions.
Well, some miner could spin up and be a very small percentage of the network.
You know, they could be like 1% and they could charge a 100x premium on these transactions,
which would be a huge deal compared to the 99%
trying to charge a 1000x premium.
And if they've got 1% of transactions,
sorry, 1% of the hash rate, they'll mine like a block a day,
a little bit over a block a day.
And they will make a ton of money, right?
And they will get more and more of the hash rate
because they'll be able...
If none of the other miners defect,
they'll just get more and more of the hash rate
and they'll make tons and tons of money.
But more likely, those other miners are going to defect.
They're going to be like,
well, why are we leaving this money on the table?
So I think that's the real argument against that worldview is that it's just not sustainable, right? Bitcoin has censorship
resistance. And one of the mechanisms of censorship resistance is that transactions pay fees. And as
you censor transactions, people are going to be willing to pay more and more to get those
transactions through, which is a natural form of censorship resistance.
So yeah, I think you would have a really hard time trying to charge even like a 2x premium on those kinds of transactions just because other miners would defect immediately.
Okay, so we have seen lots of discourse over the past week. I think one of the arguments that we've been trying to make that I think hits home to a
lot of people who, again, are able to think in terms of second order effects is that if
you start going down this path of like extreme filtering and targeting specific things on
the Bitcoin network that you don't like, and I would argue definitely censoring certain use cases of the Bitcoin network,
that you're potentially laying the framework and groundwork for that to get turned against you maybe 10 years from now when some nation state starts to want to do OFAC again
or something along these lines.
You're making it very clear that this is totally something that the Bitcoin network
is kind of now part of their culture that we can do if we want to um do you think there is any strength to that argument
where we're we're kind of moving bitcoin in the wrong direction like directionally moving towards
censorship is not good because quite frankly like the monetary use case which we all agree is the
number one most important thing here um potentially gets hurt by these guys. And ironically,
they're the ones who care the most about the monetary use case. I'm curious your thoughts on
that. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think that, you know, we want a scenario where we have a bunch of
different miners that are mining any valid transaction, and it's very, very hard to censor.
And if any entity starts to lean on an individual miner or an individual pool to try to get them
to censor, the miner should say, well, I can't do that because I will just go out of business,
right? I will be losing less competitive compared to other pools. People just switch to
other more profitable pools. If pools are already censoring, I think it makes the argument that
they are unable to censor some other kind of transaction to do some additional kind of
censorship or even, or just make that other transactions very, very expensive. I think that argument is harder to make, right? If the pool is sitting there, you know, censoring
JPEGs, the argument that they somehow can't censor other kinds of transactions just gets very,
very weak. So yeah, I think it is a totally reasonable thing. I think we should just be like, if it pays the fee, let it be. And it is a slippery slope. I do agree. Okay. So you make a very compelling point
towards the end of your thread here, and we're getting towards the end of this, and we'll open
this up for, I know there's a bunch of people on stage and my co-hosts who have some questions for
you. But you say, and this is, I would say,
your most compelling point that you make. I've been hearing you make it for two and a half years.
You say, even if fees were higher, Bitcoin's block subsidy halves every four years,
necessitating a transition to fees paying for the entirety of Bitcoin's security budget.
I would rather see demand for block space emerge sooner rather than later.
I would rather see demand for block space emerge sooner rather than later.
Chris, who was on the show on Monday, seemed to not grasp this concept and basically ignore
it completely and believes that any sort of competition, that any competition for block
space that results in any sort of increase in fees, he is very worried that it makes
opening and closing these lightning network channels for
his company's activities in El Salvador.
He believes that is a bigger problem than the long term security budget crisis, which
quite frankly, I hear people on Ethereum bring up and I think it's the most legitimate criticism
they have for Bitcoin and its future. Maybe number two would be like quantum or
something like that. So I'm curious, like you obviously have very strong feelings about this.
I think in the past you even said like it was one of several reasons why you even created
ordinals and went down this path and kind of justify, you know, what we're doing here.
You obviously think about this a lot. Could you elaborate a little bit on the importance
of ensuring Bitcoin's longevity and security long into the future?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so the block subsidy right now is pretty high. If we look at a recent block, the last block got about $350,000 in the subsidy, so the
new Bitcoin being created, and about $1,313 in fees. So the vast, vast majority of the block reward is coming from the subsidy.
The subsidy gets cut in half every four years. This is a very aggressive schedule. This is like
a super aggressive schedule because it's just decaying exponentially or the opposite of exponentially or
whatever. If I was Satoshi, I don't think that I would have had such an aggressive schedule
because it means that you absolutely have to transition to fees pretty quickly. I mean,
I guess it's a longer term thing. It's in the know, I don't know, eight, 12 years or whatever. But it is a it is, you know,
I don't think it's a problem, but it's something that needs to happen. And I personally would
much rather see that demand emerge sooner rather than later. Like, I don't want it to be
like a fucking nail biter, you know, that at the last minute, developers are like,
oh, holy shit, like, maybe people should be stuffing shit in our returns. I would like there
to be some demand. I'd like there to be monetary demand and failing that, you know, spam demand.
Because it's all sort of grist for the mill. all pays for bitcoin security um and that is the that's the future that we that we have to be preparing for
both because for bitcoin to be secure there must be very high fees and if bitcoin is successful
as an inevitability there are going to be high fees. So I think that it's a bad idea to make business or technology decisions that rely on fees
being very low.
And in fact, I think this is pretty similar to when there was the first set amount of
raging debate over inscriptions and and block space use a lot of the people who were most salty
about inscriptions were people who had business models that required a that required very very
low fees certain exchanges and that like comped like comped user fees, certain Lightning providers were relying on fees being low forever.
And that's just not a good expectation.
Fees, we hope will get higher and must get higher.
And I think that all sources of block space demand are good.
And we should sort of be welcoming this additional fee revenue. And also to some extent, this competition that forces financial transactions to bid up their fee rate.
Another thing I'll say is that I don't think that non-Bitcoin transactions really have to compete too hard with other uses of Bitcoin. The reason being that Bitcoin transactions are very compact
compared to things like inscriptions, compared to things like these incredibly inefficient
chains of transactions minting uncommon goods. They just get their few inputs, their few outputs,
and they're good. They're not embedding a whole bunch of data in there. And so as a result,
they don't have to pay that much in an
absolute sense to outbid these larger transactions that are doing other things. So yeah, in any case,
I think it's good. We need the fees. The block subsidy is halving precipitously. I probably
would have done something like the block subsidy halves relatively quickly over the first or lowers relatively quickly over
the first like 10 years and then has like a long low inflation rate right i think i would have
tried to get if i was you know designing bitcoin from scratch i would have tried to get to like a
two percent inflation rate relatively quickly but then have it like tail off very slowly after that instead of like having it,
you know, like once we get to like a 2% inflation rate or whatever, like is it really worth it?
Like chopping that shit in half? Like 1% is pretty lit, but like damn, like yeah, we need the security.
Anyways, yeah, that's my rambly answer to that.
Awesome. And you make some good points there. I think like my, the main thing I tried to convey to Chris on the space on Monday was
that I wanted him to, you know, defeat us on the battlefield.
Like there's a clear landscape, right?
I would say we are at a massive disadvantage.
You know, I just see all of these things getting inscribed into Bitcoin, these massive files like, you know, Trevor is literally inscribing this massive, you know, four megabyte thing in a single transaction.
Whereas, you know, Chris is trying to do a roll up, which is actually not even that big of a transaction to close his lightning channel that could theoretically do like, you know, many thousands of transfers of Bitcoin back and forth.
And I was basically explaining to him, this just tells me that like people aren't using
what you're doing and you need to work on getting people to actually use that and stop
kind of, you know, blaming us for your own problems because you have a massive advantage
and we're just trying to inscribe dick butts and, you know, I don't know, like random shit into Bitcoin.
So he didn't really like that.
His response was that the Lightning Network was a massive success and that, you know, it was our fault that people aren't using it and this sort of stuff.
But I don't know, man.
This kind of concludes the questions and stuff I had.
I want to hand it over to my co-host Trevor here, who I know has
some questions for you. And then, yeah, we're going to have people come up and if you can hang
out with us for a bit, maybe ask some questions about just more of your thoughts around this whole
filtering thing. I've seen, you know, a variety of people concerned. Some people kind of realize
this is just how Bitcoin works and there's a lot of talking and it doesn't really mean that much.
But yeah, we'll leave it
open for people to come up and ask some questions as well in a minute here. But I'm going to hand
it off to Trevor here. Here you go, Trevor. Cool. What's up, Casey? Thanks for coming through.
So yeah, I mean, I think there's two, I think Chris is a unique perspective because he probably
doesn't agree with most, like of the, maybe he agrees with some of it, but, like, his main argument is that, is about Lightning Network
and that
he's like, if
we can, like, Lightning Network
works, and if we just all start using
it, then
we're going to bring Bitcoin to everyone
in the world. Like, that's, like, his view
in that, like, these JPEGs are
driving up fees, which are getting them,
which is getting in the way of that um but it and and so i'll start there before going on to like the other people i think
their perspective because in chris's mind leo also said it here but i'll kind of emphasize it he said
that um basically everyone should use lightning and no one should use layer one so in that scenario
obviously we discussed about how the um the fees are going to go way down.
Could you actually, you know, walk through step by step, like, what the attack would be and why that's a problem?
Because in Chris's mind specifically, like, once we're in Lightning, we like we're like either separate or we're safe.
You know, like whatever happening in layer one doesn't matter as long as it's cheap to settle out.
But in his mind, if we're just all in Lightning, it doesn't even matter what happens on on layer one that we like the lowest fees possible or ideal.
You know, is that like could we could we game theory that a little bit or? Or maybe even, like, start with, like, the most extreme example. But then also we could go over to, like, okay, it will maybe lightning fee settlements generate, you know, a few Bitcoin every block.
And then, like, you know, is that – and maybe Bitcoin's worth a million dollars.
Maybe that's enough to do the security about it.
Maybe – I don't know.
Maybe we don't have time and space to do a spreadsheet that out specifically.
But, like, that's, like, the only argument I can maybe see out specifically. But that's the only argument
I can maybe see for this. But curious your take, Casey. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I see a world
where everybody just uses Lightning. As great as Lightning is, it does come with downsides.
great as lightning is it does come with downsides um you have to deal with inbound liquidity which
is annoying if you want to receive funds and you don't have sufficient capacity in your lightning
channels um that doesn't happen on l1 bitcoin right anybody can send any amount of bitcoin
that they have to anybody else at any time. Lightning also has liveness requirements.
You've got to be watching the network
and you've got to be able to get a transaction mined
relatively quickly.
In the case that somebody tries to broadcast an old state,
so you've got to have timely access to L1
and you've got to watch the chain. You've got to like run a node and keep it online.
So yeah, lightning is great, but I don't see a world where everybody who uses Bitcoin is going
to want to be on lightning. Lots of people are going to, you know, they don't need to make rapid
payments. They would prefer not to have to run a node they're just hodling they're just stacking sats um so yeah i think that's i think that's
pretty unlikely um and regardless of what's happening on lightning we do need fees um nobody
really knows how much fees we need um but the fees on l1 i, they would have to be 100 times or like 300 times more than they currently are in order to provide the same degree of security that we currently get from the block subsidy. So yeah, I think like an all lightning world is unlikely.
And even if we are in an all lightning world, we do need fees to be high in that case.
Also say that I think it's kind of unfortunate, but it does seem like lightning has a lot
less product market fit than we all thought it did.
It's like a bummer, but it seems like people do not really
want to make payments in Bitcoin at the moment. They're not really clamoring for that. People
want to make payments in dollars. So as much as I want Lightning to succeed, and as much as I think
that Lightning will continue to have some sort of place in the ecosystem, that sort of we all get on Lightning and everybody is and it's all good.
And, you know, it's all nobody cares what that's happening on L1, I think is a little bit a little bit unlikely.
OK, so, yeah, Casey, thank you so much.
Let's go like the extreme example where literally no one is ever using L1 and everyone is using Lightning.
Are the Lightning users safe? Can we just use Lightning and not have to worry about what's
happening on layer one? Or what's the connection here? Can you walk through step-by-step
what that issue would be? Sure. Well, I mean, Lightning does use layer one.
Lightning relies on the basic component of the Lightning
network is called the payment channel.
And a payment channel requires two layer one transactions,
one transaction to open that Lightning channel
and one transaction to close that Lightning channel.
So everybody who's using Lightning
is ultimately also a user of the base L1 chain.
So it's not like you get away from using base L1 chain. So it's not like you sort of get away from using the L1 chain.
I guess there is also some concern
that if everybody used Lightning, that if Lightning was, quote,
unquote, too efficient, there would be a relatively small
amount of transactions on chain, which
would result in not enough fee revenue. Like no,
there would be no competition to get a transaction, your Lightning channel open and
close transactions into a block because there's tons of block space. So I guess that is like
another fear. But yeah, Lightning uses the L1 chain at the end of the day. So there's no getting
away from the base chain.
Got it.
So like, well, let's just say hypothetically,
totally hypothetically,
that you just open one transaction
and you never, ever close it.
So you're just forever using Lightning
and fees on the main chain go to zero.
What's the problem with that?
Like what if the fees go to zero on the main chain,
why can't we just keep using Lightning
and not have to worry about it?
If fees, well, I mean, so if fees go to zero on the main chain, why can't we just keep using Lightning and not have to worry about it? If fees go to zero on the main chain, then we start worrying about reorgs. We start worrying
about the... So blocks pay fees and miners compete. There's a block reward. The block reward consists of fees and the subsidy. And
miners compete to earn that block reward by getting more and more hash rate. So if the
block reward decreases, then presumably miners will also buy less hash rate. And they'll
get less and less hash rate until there's very little hash rate securing
the chain, at which point you do the classic sort of double spend attack where you send
somebody a transaction and then you reorg that transaction out of the chain as if it never happened. And you keep the, you know,
the Ferrari or the Lambo and also the Bitcoin, you get the Bitcoin back that you sent them.
And Lightning is also susceptible to this. So the Lightning version of the attack is I open a
payment channel with you. And then I send, Bitcoin through that payment channel, even back to
myself into another payment channel. And then I reorg that payment channel out of existence.
So you get nothing. And so yeah, like the 99% of users using Lightning doesn't save you from
reorg attacks, even reorg attacks on channels.
I was also going to say something else.
Oh, yeah, but also I would say that the idea that you can open a channel
and never close it is pretty unlikely.
Lightning network operators open and close channels all the time.
They need more capacity on their channel.
They want to withdraw their coins out of the Lightning Network into storage. They want
to rebalance, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So Lightning Network node operators
are making L1 payments all the time. So even in a 99% lightning scenario, like, yeah, they're still going to be
making those payments, making those L1 payment channels. I don't know if that did that.
Well, then, well, then do you think that that would be enough for the security budget? I guess
you think that like, if, like, if we, in this hypothetical example, we just, just because the,
the JPEG enjoyers decided to throw away our biggest sin and just go all in on Lightning and just be, you know, onboard the whole world at once because they just didn't know about Lightning.
And it was like our support that was causing it not to be successful.
In this hypothetical example, would the channel closing and openings of like a few billion people be enough for the security budget, I guess?
A few billion? My gut reaction is like, yeah, probably.
But we'd really need to do the math.
We'd really need to figure out how many people there are and how efficiently Lightning Node operators are maintaining their their channels i.e like how often
they have to open and close new channels um and those lightning network operators the idea is
that they will have to compete amongst each other with those payment channels um so they will be
bidding up fees amongst other lightning lightning network operators, though, I have no idea. I'm sort of curious if anybody else
has written about, like, how many, you know, taking the average Lightning node,
how many on-chain transactions it seems to make for a given volume of payment flow,
and thus how much payment flow globally we would need to start filling up blocks and getting people to compete fee wise to get a decent block ward.
I honestly don't know, but I'm very curious.
And I sort of suspect that people, somebody out there on the Internet has probably written about it.
And would they run into the same issue of like opening a channel and having not in like, cause when you open a channel,
don't do you set the,
the fee amount for the closed transaction at that point?
Like that's,
I think part of the issue that,
that the lightning community ran into when ordinals just spiked the,
the mempools at the spikes is what gets them.
Right.
So like,
wouldn't they kind of,
even in this hypothetical example,
like that you said,
they're going to be competing for block space still as it's growing. Wouldn't they kind of end up in the same kind of corner and that they're
complaining about now? So I think there have actually been a number of advancements that
avoid needing to commit to the fee rate on the closing transaction. The issue is that Lightning relies
on creating these sort of, you open a channel with a transaction, and at the same time,
you commit to a transaction that would close out the channel. And then every time you make
a new transaction on that Lightning channel, you create a new uh l1 bitcoin transaction
that you don't broadcast that would close the channel at the new updated state so the problem
is is that you have to commit to the fee in that closing transaction but you don't actually know
what the fee is going to be um in the future so the uh solution for this is, I believe that they just create these like anyone
can spend anchor outputs that are zero value outputs or like small value outputs that you
use child pays for parents to bump the fee rate of the closing transaction. And this means that
you don't actually have to guess the fee rate of the closing transaction. And this means that you don't actually have to guess the fee rate of the closing transaction
in advance.
You pay zero fees on the closing transaction, but when you actually want to broadcast it,
you use child pays per parent to bump up the effective fee rate to whatever you want.
And then you can use RBF to continue to bump that fee up with a new child that
pays a higher fee rate.
So I think it was more of an issue in the past and now it's less of an issue with new
techniques that allow you to avoid having to pre-commit to a fee rate.
Yeah, these are called ephemeral anchors.
That's the term.
It's a ephemeral anchor that does that.
Cool.
Thanks for that.
Yeah.
Thanks for the answers, Casey.
That's all I have.
I was going to say, like,
they've already fixed it.
Then what's the problem?
What's everybody complaining about?
Oh, okay.
Yeah, actually I do.
Also, knots filters.
Knots will filter ephemeral anchors by default.
So if you're running knots,
you have to set it in your config
Allow ephemeral anchors if you want them. So not to know in the future It's hilarious may not be able to use this if they don't if they don't change that
I think knots is also what they filtering samurai transactions
There was like a thing about that. Yeah, the
coordinator transaction for whirlpool they're filtering because it's over 42 bytes, which they didn't care about either.
Yeah. So Chris has one perspective, which we just went like kind of as far as we could with that. And then Casey, the other group is like the loop dash, the ocean mining. You know, what do you make of the of the arguments there? It just seems like a moral argument about okay this is bad and
we're not doing anything to stop it which i guess is not even true the the the fact is that the
bitcoin core doesn't uh care about ordinals but what they want to do is that they've already seen
like layer twos i believe it was uh either starkware citria is is putting data
in the um the multi-sigs instead of using opportune because they can't that they want to
extend the opportune to a large size to prevent harm um but you know what do you make of that
of that side of the of the debate and like like you know is yeah i mean i
can't i mean there's not really any way i can make sense of it so luke literally identifies as a
bitcoin node and he believes that we're like you know having some sort of like non-consensual he
said he said the r word right yeah i mean like he has really extreme views it's honestly trevor
it's hard to kind of get in his head and understand exactly what he's thinking. But like Casey, he literally
leads basically a little cult of these people. And I mean, I'm curious. Yeah. Like Trevor asked,
like, how do you make sense of all that? It's very odd, quite frankly. I think maybe it's just
sort of a product of Bitcoin's insular culture that developed so you know bitcoin launched 2009 right and then
shitcoining kind of starts maybe like 2014 you know what i mean and everybody's
shitcoining on these like other chains you know what i mean and bitcoiners are like sitting on
bitcoin and you know some of them are like well you know whatever who cares but as all the you
know fun degenerate shit coining happens on these other chains Bitcoiners like had to develop this
like you know very like maxi like laser eyes culture of like well everything else that's
happening on those other chains not only do we like not want to do it, but it's like, it's sinful.
You know what I mean? And so this culture kind of like simmers, you know, and develops for a while and it doesn't get really challenged because you can't, you can't do anything on Bitcoin. You can't
do any of this fun shit coinery. And then, you know, Ordinals is kind of released and it kind of like explodes this culture.
So I think ultimately it is a product of the sort of 2014, 2012 to 2023 no fun on Bitcoin culture, right?
That got this like very insular, very hostile towards anything else.
that got this like very insular, very hostile towards anything else.
And we first saw an outburst of that, that culture, um, when ordinals originally came
out and there was that initial whole, you know, set of debates.
And now we're just sort of, we're just sort of seeing it again.
Yeah.
Hey, Casey, it's good to talk to you.
And thanks, um, you guys for letting me speak. And you guys understand why Bitcoin was created
and just the reason why Ferraris are created. They're not created for graffiti, for random
strangers to put stuff on. They're created to go fast and be beautiful. We created, we meaning
Satoshi and everybody else who is a part of the network of
Bitcoin, created Bitcoin so that people who are in oppressive regimes that have hyperinflation
have an opportunity to get the fuck out of them. And so I am an artist and I love the fact that we can have an opportunity for artists, whether it's,
you know, visual art, sonic art, whatever, to earn a living. And we have a digital way to do
such a thing. Bitcoin is not the way to do that. You know, putting things on, you know, the time
chain, not the blockchain, it's a time chain that could possibly accidentally
fuck up the ability for people to get out of authoritarian regimes freely is, is, is against
why Bitcoin was created. And so, sorry, and I'm sorry, Charlie Kirk just got fucking assassinated
because he was speaking truth. So I hope y'all don't assassinate me for speaking some truth.
You're not, you're not speaking truth though.
No, I am speaking truth and it's my truth. Okay.
No, no, no, no. Don't shut me up. Don't shut me up.
No, no, I'm just going to ask you.
DJ Valerie, just super quick here.
You're more than welcome to come up here and share your views.
Like we welcome all views here. We want to have, uh, you know,
dialogue and conversations.
you know,
in no way,
you know,
you should feel like worried about sharing what you actually think here.
Obviously a lot of people will disagree with you,
but,
yeah,
we don't need to talk about assassinations and stuff like that.
But what we need to talk about you guys,
gentlemen,
and,
and I see all of you and literally I'm the only person who has a face on this panel.
Casey, yours is even, you know, obscured.
All of you have characters.
So I'm the only one who shows my face for real and fights for truth.
Okay.
And so what I want to ask you all is it's not about Bitcoin being, yay, let's just use this technology and put our things up and make a bunch of money.
It's about the future of your children's life, the future of humanity, the future of the ability for people to say, fuck you, central banks.
Fuck you, state. Fuck you, authority, who wants to control me and take away my purchasing power.
troll me and take away my purchasing power. So when we have these arguments that are in the
little rooms that we have, and there's a couple hundred people in this room and God bless you all
for speaking and putting these rooms together. We have a mission because we are leaving our
generation of children and their children's children with so much fucking debt. Okay.
That they're killing themselves, they're committing suicide,
they're killing each other, and it's because the fiat system is so fucked up. And so again,
as an artist, I'm stoked. Let's fucking go. Let's put our digital work somewhere and let's let
other people pay us and let's do all of these things. Yes, yes, and yes. And Bitcoin is not the place to do that. Okay. And so we have to
understand differentiation. And as a business person, you have to understand that put your
artwork and put your good things and ordinals and runes and all the stuff somewhere else. Don't
intoxicate the time chain with this stuff. And the most important thing that we have
to be aware of, and Casey, you and I talked about this years ago when this whole thing started,
if one person puts something on the time chain that could accidentally bring it all down,
otherwise known as child porn, we've fucked. This is fear-mongering nonsense, dude.
Get her off her front and so far.
Valerie, Valerie.
This is all fear-mongering nonsense.
We're going to pause for a second.
So Valerie, we're going to give you 30 seconds
to kind of wrap up the point that you're making.
We're going to give Casey an opportunity
to respond if he should choose to do so.
And then I think we have some other hands here
who may want to respond also.
So Valerie, you got 30 seconds. This is...
Yeah, Valerie, you should be able to talk again. You should be on mute.
Great. I'm on. Thank you. This is not fear-mongering, guys. This is truth- mongering, guys. This is truth mongering. Okay. And so get clear with why Bitcoin
exists and why artists exist. Okay. Two different things. Bitcoin is a whole nother opportunity for
the humanity of the future generations to live. Do you understand? It's not about JPEGs and it's
not about that. And so if we pollute it accidentally or if we open a channel or a door for it to be polluted, we are screwing our kids and our grandkids and all of those kids.
Thanks for letting me talk.
Okay.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, Valerie.
Casey, would you like to respond or would you like to yield to someone else?
It's totally up to you.
I guess I'll respond. I definitely understand the concern. But I guess I just think that it
just doesn't really engage with the set of technical arguments. The technical arguments
are just kind of strong, like that you can't filter anyways. And also things
that relate to Bitcoin's overall and long-term health, like the argument that if you filter,
you are going to make mining more centralized for a variety of reasons, which damages Bitcoin's buyability as a payments network.
That if you have miners censor and show that they are able to censor the network and encourage them to censor,
that they're going to ultimately censor financial transactions.
transactions. So I understand the concerns, but ultimately I don't think that those concerns
sort of deal with the technical arguments that I think are in favor of not filtering.
But Casey, you have to deal with the arguments that are philosophical and not just technical.
Okay. And so the philosophical arguments that we all should be considering and not just technical. Okay. And so the philosophical arguments that we all should
be considering and not just little minute things are, why did Bitcoin get created? Why did Satoshi,
he, she, they, them, whatever, create Bitcoin? Is it so that we can, you know, put our NFTs and
all these things and sell them? No, absolutely not.
And not to say that there's no place for that.
Bitcoin is not the place for that, okay?
And so what I want to share and what people in the audience,
I hope you guys do your own research, D-Y-O-R, right?
Is understand why Bitcoin was created.
And we're not saying not to go be digital artists
and go create communities
that wanna support you financially.
But it's also like,
is this the right set and setting to do such a thing?
And so for those of us who are normies,
I'm not a coder, I'm not a programmer, I'm not a genius,
I'm not a developer,
and I'm not a coder. I'm not a programmer. I'm not a genius. I'm not a developer and I'm not a billionaire hedge fund person. I am a person who believes that Bitcoin is a tool to help people
escape authoritarian, horrible regimes. I just hosted a space this morning with a bunch of folks
from Africa about circular economies. I want to hear all of you talk about how people are escaping authoritarian
regimes, domestic violence, and political violence using Bitcoin. Okay? So please do more of that.
The goal is to not filter because then you can also filter Africans' transactions.
Okay.
Some arbitrary governments. The filtering, if we're talking about, I'm going to send you, you know, 100 sats for a cup of coffee.
Okay.
We don't want to have censorship or any filtering on that.
Nobody is sending each other 100 sats for a cup of coffee.
You're talking insane.
Who are you saying that?
She's making a good point in that, like, the BTC monetary use case long term, I think it's something we all believe is an important thing that we all are pretty much aligned with.
And where we strongly disagree with you is that we're somehow hurting that use case.
I would make an argument to you that what we're actually doing here is getting people to actually use Bitcoin and actually make it a more secure and decentralized
network long term. You know, this whole idea of we're all just going to, you know, use the
anointed lightning network and all the developer activity is going to go to that. But then we've
done that for 10 years and it's basically failed. What we're actually doing is driving demand for
block space on L1, which is directly causing VCs and builders to go try to find better solutions to do things other than the Lightning Network.
And ironically, all of the L2 use cases that we're probably going to end up building and innovating with here, which are for us to trade meme coins and NFTs, will actually make BTC more easily tradable on those L2s as well.
So we're all aligned on like BTC, you know, being money and needing to, you know,
have all 8 billion people on earth have easy access to that, easy ability to transact that.
And we're actually all building towards that same vision.
We just don't see any issue whatsoever with actually using Bitcoin.
Everybody here on this stage is using Bitcoin more than the actual, you know,
like quote unquote Bitcoin maxis are.
And we all love Bitcoin and we love BTC.
And I would argue that, you know,
Casey created a use case for BTC and money,
which didn't exist before.
Leon, can I ask you, how are you using this
more than all the maxis?
Right, like there's more people trading JPEGs
with BTC as money than people using
the Lightning Network in El Salvador to buy coffees for 100 sats.
Do you understand that we use BTC as money every single day?
We love BTC, right?
Okay, so let me ask you this, okay?
Has anybody here on the panel or in the audience escaped somebody who was trying to kill them using Bitcoin.
Okay?
It's one thing.
You're making these arbitrary moral arguments
that have nothing to do with how Bitcoin works.
They are because they're not objectively defended.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
They're not arbitrary.
Okay?
I don't know.
So everyone needs to drop everything
and go and save someone right now from a,
like, you know, I've escaped.
These are emotionally written arguments to try and slay people.
Yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with anything at this point.
I mean, you can do whatever you want with Bitcoin the same way you can do anything you want with fiat.
You can go to Starbucks and spend $9 on a latte, or you can donate it to, you know, a domestic welfare shelter.
You can do that, however, if your dollar is contaminated,
okay? Let's say you want to go get your
Starbucks or whatever, and
you're using a quote-unquote dollar
or unit of currency that's contaminated
because it got fucking child
porn on it, and you try to go get
your milk or your soup or whatever for your
kids, and you're not able to use it
as a fundamental misunderstanding
of what's happening here, right? And you're not able to use it as a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening
here right like that's and you're not like what you said doesn't make it
most of what's on bitcoin is not that most of what's on cynthia i love love what you're saying
seriously but if for whatever reason you're trying to use a unit of account that is contaminated
with poison okay so hang on hang on we We got to do hands here because when people talk too much,
and I was just guilty of this as well.
When we talk over each other, we can't hear each other.
So yeah, Trevor, I'm curious what you've got to say
that we're going to go hand by hand going forward.
Yeah, so like, first of all, like, thank you, Valerie,
and hats off to you for lighting the room on fire
and coming up here and, you know, having the guts
to just, you know just start a debate.
And so a couple of things. I think there's two parts of your argument. I think one part of your
argument is the original intention of Bitcoin. So I can just share a couple of facts that I think
I'm not sure if you're aware of or not. And then the second part is about
how we can support these people in, um, you know, oppressive regimes. Right. And because actually,
um, we all think that what we're doing is doing more to help those people or lead to a place where
those people can get the help that they need than the Nazis
and the Nazis people.
We think that actually what we're doing is setting the stage for that in a stronger way.
And I'll end it too.
So, I mean, on the intention aspect of Bitcoin, you know, the original Bitcoin client that
Satoshi made actually had two other applications inside of it. The first one was
a poker client. And the second one was eBay style marketplace. So in Satoshi's original
inspiration or, you know, motivation, let's say intention for Bitcoin to gain traction, he actually believed that,
okay, maybe a poker client is how we get, you know, this to be adopted. Because again, adoption,
most products, adoption is different, initially different than the final use case. So,
and I think Satoshi, I don't know, probably understood that, I guess, for him putting a
poker client inside Bitcoin client, and also an eBay style marketplace. So, you know, probably understood that, I guess, for him putting a poker client inside Bitcoin client and also an eBay style marketplace.
So, you know, those are just two facts about the intention.
And there, I mean, there's also Bitcoin forum posts about Satoshi encouraging someone to
sell a JPEG, to sell a digital picture with another person to buy it with Bitcoin.
He helped facilitate that. So, I mean, those are,
you know, a few clear facts, I think that, you know, could lead anyone to, you know,
and we can believe what they want, but could provide the basis for a logical conclusion
that Satoshi believed that there were, you know, other use cases could have merit to getting people
to adopt Bitcoin, which is what we think we're doing here with ordinals.
Again, is in order for the people in the oppressive regimes to be able to use Bitcoin as a lifeline, they need to have other people who will accept Bitcoin and want to receive Bitcoin in order to offer them help, right? Like it has like Bitcoin has to be adopted in order for it to be a lifeline for people.
And so in our belief, I think for most people in this room, that like getting that adoption
requires improving the applications, like improving the wallets, improving these things
the wallets, improving these things at the most fast pace that we can. And so with ordinals,
at the most fast pace that we can.
not only have we increased the adoption, kind of taking away adoption from other chains like
Ethereum or Solana that, you know, because logically the people who buy NFTs or buy shitcoins
are now doing it on Bitcoin. So we've taken away that market share
from the other chains
to bring more adoption back to the OG Bitcoin.
But also, we're onboarding new people
like artists and whatnot.
And a big point I've shared in the previous space
was that if you take PayPal, for example,
which I think, Valerie, you're familiar with PayPal,
like the payments app.
Are you fucking kidding me, Trevor?
Okay, well, I just wanted to pause to make sure you're still there, too.
So PayPal, do you know why it, like how it gained adoption?
Like what, like the main way it gained adoption, do you know?
I'm going to let you give us a history on PayPal, honey.
Okay, so it was eBay. So it initially started,
like, they tried a lot of things to make it successful. Nothing worked until finally
they focused on being online payments for people buying things on eBay. And if you, you know,
I guess you don't know this as well, but like the, and I'm not saying it to be, to be rude or anything. Apologies.
The number one product on eBay at the time, which generated 95% of the volume on eBay was Beanie Babies.
So in a way, Beanie Babies, I would say are probably as useless as these ordinals and JPEGs that we enjoy.
PayPal wouldn't exist if eBay didn't have Beanie Babies.
So that's kind of like personally how I see this is that we might need a useless thing to bolster adoption to get to that future where people can get out of oppressive regimes using Bitcoin.
And so no one is disagreeing with you there. We just think that stopping these use cases
actually harm adoption and prevent Bitcoin from reaching the masses.
Awesome, Valerie. If you have something you want to respond with, feel free.
Otherwise, go to another hand. Thanks, Trevor. Can you guys hear me?
So Trevor, I really appreciate what you just said.
And I appreciate the analogy that you're using with Bitcoin and Beanie Babies and PayPal and whatnot. We're not talking about a company and we're not talking about the adoption of one institution.
We're talking about something that is much greater than that.
We're talking about something that is much greater than that.
Okay.
And so when people start to understand sound money versus fiat, okay.
And when we understand that we've got this opportunity for the future and humanity to
use something that is not connected to a CEO, is not connected to a CTO or a CMO or anything. Oh, right. And it's, it's a very
unique brain exercise that fucks us all up. Right. And so a lot of us are in like, oh my gosh,
how is this happening? And how the heck did we get here? We are in a position right now where we are slaves. Okay? We are fiat slaves.
Every single one of us is a fiat slave.
And I defy you, anybody who's on this panel, who's in the audience, to tell me that you don't use fiat.
The minute that we, and myself included, because I am not on a thousand percent Bitcoin standard, and one day I will be, but I'm working myself into it.
percent Bitcoin standard, and one day I will be, but I'm working myself into it. I am subscribing
and saying yes to the system of violence that can print money and drop bombs on children.
Okay. And so nothing is more important than peace and not killing children. And so the fact that
money is related to that, and the fact that we're using this kind of money, you know,
called dollars, called pesos, called whatever, we're saying yes every time we swipe our credit
card, every time we throw a couple bucks at the barista, whatever. Every time we use Bitcoin in
a circular economy or in a non-circular economy, we are saying fuck you motherfuckers to the system.
Okay? Valerie, listen, we 100% agree with with you that's why we use VTC in a circular
economy every day like you're not gonna find anybody here to disagree with that
we're trying to understand why you think that what we do is bad for for that
somehow what I think is bad and scary and and leaves a Pandora's box open is if somehow anybody, whoever, whether it's the CIA, the Mossad,
whoever these motherfuckers are who are pretty much controlling the strings, right? If they can
all of a sudden go, hmm, let's go put some weird shit on the time chain. And it happens to be a
naked kid getting raped. Oh, it happens to be a naked kid getting raped.
Oh, it happens to be something bad.
You can already do that.
No, I get it.
No, but the fact that...
You can already do that.
They can't...
But why are we not, as adults?
We've got to bring this back to ordinals and rules.
No, we're going to go back.
We're going to go back to censorship.
People have been inscribing JPEGs into Bitcoin forever, right?
Bitcoin censorship with Casey Rodemar.
It's literally a database that's permissionless, no the permission this is a property of bitcoin that exists the permission you
the care let's let's let's play a game right let's use words as a game permissionless doesn't mean
let's just everybody have permissionless to go fucking fuck up the blockchain that's not what
that means it means i don't have to ask. It means I don't have to ask permitted from a bank.
I don't have to ask a centralized authority
to send my value to you in a peer-to-peer way.
Permissionless doesn't mean,
hey, everybody, let's just go graffiti the shit
out of this with naked kids, okay?
And so the minute that we are not fighting against that,
we lose, we have lost fighting against that, we lose.
We have lost, okay?
Because we're losing the ability for the future generations to exchange value in a way that is not controlled, manipulated, and destroyed by the central motherfuckers.
Do you understand how important it is to make that a priority?
Listen, listen.
We all are aligned on the importance of btc okay so just
to be clear we're all completely aligned there we don't need to keep talking no i don't think
fundamentally what i think you're missing valerie is that you can't have a network that allows
people to permissionlessly transfer money without a central authority with also basically allowing
people to inscribe data of some some type onto, like a crypto dick butt or a picture of a monkey or whatever.
Fundamentally, when you start altering the network to block that, it's going to get used against you in the same way so that now all of a sudden you're not getting the monetary use case that you like.
Please give me an example of that because I completely disagree with you and I want to learn because I cannot get my brain around. Let's theoretically say
that we are blocking off spam on Bitcoin and the Bitcoin network has decided that it's going to
target all runes and ordinals and JPEG inscriptions and not allow them on the network.
The same forces, and Casey kind of described it as like leaning on miners to do certain things the same forces that are blocking half of bitcoin's transactions today
if you try to get rid of those and not make those possible that same mechanism is going to get used
against you by nation states in the future to block a monetary use case that you like
this is a general example please give me one specific example of how this works so okay more specifically you could fund terrorism
with bitcoin that's a monetary use case that obviously many nation states do not like about
bitcoin and if you set the precedent that we can just block half the bitcoin transaction
through you know knots or whatever mechanism.
You're laying the groundwork for some days to day to day.
You're already filtering all these transactions out. It's illegal to not also filter out, you know, terrorist BTC transfers.
And it's a very slippery slope that ultimately ends with something that looks a lot like a fiat system.
No, no.
One is monetary and the other one is not, Leonidas.
Let me just add one thing here and then I go.
I encourage you to invite Dennis Porter whenever you can for the following reasons.
I think it's futile to start arguing between bad and good and evil, bad and good, because
there's always going to be some people that will see
this as something right and the other ones as something wrong.
So we're not going to get in, never in an agreement.
So what I think we should be doing is knowing the consequences of our actions, right?
So when we do something, there's consequences, right?
Now, we need to learn what the impact will be on the network. And then we decide as adults whether it's going to change the categorization of Bitcoin in the SEC, because it's not going to be categorized as commodity any longer.
For the same reason that Cardano, Ethereum, all these blockchains are not considered commodities, so they're going to probably lose the status of commodities.
So there's going to be a lot of changes.
So I encourage you to get out of your comfort zone and bubbles and invite people so that
you can learn what are the consequences of your actions, right?
Look, I'm also going to encourage you to get out of your bubble, right?
Like your default assumption that we all need i'm catering the bitcoin core client
to what the sec likes so that we can you know have a bunch of custodial paper bitcoin so that
your bags can go up that's also probably not the best situation either man so that's like a very
uncipherpunk statement that you just made to being appealing to like nation states is how you now define what
bitcoin just knowing the consequences of your actions that that's all and nobody i am more
than happy if the sec is pissed with bitcoin i actually think that means we're probably doing
something right i'm gonna super pause here uh we're gonna do a big pause i'm gonna mute everyone
casey i believe uh you know we've probably concluded your, you know, interview here.
And I could see this going for a little bit and don't want to make you stick around.
Wanted to give you any final opportunity to just kind of share anything that you would like.
And, you know, we'll have to have you back sometime to kind of dig into some updates on Ordinals and Runes and just your thoughts there.
But this was a great, really, really great conversation.
It was an honor to have you back on the Ordinals and runes and just your thoughts there, but this was a great, really, really great conversation. It was an honor to, to have you back on the ordinal show for a fourth time.
And man, we, we all have so much respect for you and appreciate all that you do,
dude. And yeah, we're all,
we're all deeply indebted to you and you've changed all of our lives, bro.
So going to give you a final chance here to say anything you'd like,
and then feel free to leave if you would like to, of course,
you're welcome to stay if you want to,
but obviously conversation and dialogue is degrading a little bit here.
So I wanted to wrap up our segment and move to this next debate portion of the show.
Thanks, man.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, I love how fired up people are.
Yeah, I mean, I guess the one thought that I'll leave is that I think that the filters
debate is actually kind of over.
I think people are, you know, obviously there's still a lot of people who are like upset about it
and they're like talking about a lot, but Bitcoin Core is, there's a release candidate up for
Bitcoin Core version 30. It removes the limit. So you can make op returns with that Bitcoin core version up to 100 kilobytes.
And I think that, you know, at the time that Bitcoin core is making this change is the time
that it's easiest to get everybody fired up. And so I think it's just kind of, as I said in my
thread, I think it's just kind of going to recede into the rear view mirror. The knots people will like stay mad,
but then they'll kind of realize that they're not doing anything.
And they'll just kind of like, you know,
like go away after a while and nothing is really going to happen.
So onward and upward is my, is my message.
And yeah, thanks so much for having me on.
It's been a pleasure.
Love getting the chance to talk to you guys and I'll see you guys next time. Thank you for speaking. Yeah. Hey, I've got a question for you me on. It's been a pleasure. I love getting the chance to talk to you guys.
And I'll see you guys next time.
Thank you for speaking out.
Yeah. Hey, I've got a question for you, Casey, if you don't mind, please. I am not a technical
person. I'm a little bit of a nerd, but certainly not as wonderful as all of you guys who write
code. I'm running another node and I want nothing to do with anything that could
accidentally hurt me and have child porn on my node.
How do I protect myself?
Well, I mean, Bitcoin core already,
uninstall your,
uninstall your node.
Unfortunately, that's the, that's the answer.
I'm going to dip.
See you guys next time.
Say it again.
I didn't hear
that say it again thank you install your node oh really that's like yeah
honestly ordinals inscriptions probably aren't how that would happen anyways they
would do it in a more obnoxious way so yeah like fundamentally again if you
want to run a Bitcoin node
that is able to run Bitcoin, there are ways to store data in Bitcoin that you couldn't have your
node operating without storing data. And that's, again, the nature of a permissionless network,
right? Like, I don't think anyone here is a fan of like illicit child anything.
This argument has been made ad nauseum in the sort of uh like free speech and uh
end-to-end encryption world where this is the argument against telegram obviously all the
people that use telegram and telegram and all of these end-to-end encrypted apps
have basically a stance that yes it's unfortunate that when you have a kind of technology that's
permissionless that there are some extremely
tiny group of people who use it for terrorism. And I'm sure there is probably illicit things
that are being end-end encrypted in Telegram and that are ultimately being facilitated by
Telegram, maybe terrorism of some sort. I think that's even proven. But does that mean that we
should all be punished and basically just say, OK, we can't do Telegram anymore?
No, we're going to still have Indian encryption and use Telegram, right?
We're not going to let a small number of people dictate how the entire global civilization is going to happen.
Nobody is saying not to use Telegram.
However, when you choose to run a node because you want to be a part of this thing called the Bitcoin network,
node because you want to be a part of this thing called the Bitcoin network. If you're choosing to
say, yes, I'm going to accept these things called child pornography or whatever, gosh knows what,
that's a different story. I don't have to say yes to Telegram, my friend, but if I'm going to run a
node, okay, and I'm still learning, okay, I'm a noob. I'm a total noob. How do I say,
I don't want to have this stuff on my node.
I only want to have the transactions.
This is not a question about ultimately ordinals and runes,
which is what this kind of conversation is about.
It's not possible.
To filter our transactions.
I think we're all in a hands up for a while.
That's,
that's something that you're going to basically have to take up with
like uh people who are like super experts on bitcoin and i think it's like it's a bit of a
it's a bit of an it's not possible but the fact that you're having this space and you're pretending
that you're this expert got their hands up space is an expert with casey and trust me i love casey
casey and i go back years and i think you know ordinals and runes and all this stuff. Like I told you guys, I'm an artist and I want artists to be able to, you know, makeing and you believe that's what the
conversation is about what i'm telling you is that the dialogue that's happening on bitcoin today has
nothing to do with what you just said that may be a dialogue that bitcoin has in the future
but you're you're using that dialogue to side rail the actual conversation that people are trying to
have which is totally legal legitimate use cases of the bitcoin network that are using
hold on hold on leo let me let me talk about like valerie tell me in your mind how you imagine
because because the answer is it's not possible so like however if you remove it then someone
will just find a new way to add it and there's infinite numbers of way to add it so there's an
infinite number of ways rational is so nonsense to add arbitrary
data so you can try neo go ahead try to tell me how you would prevent it and i can just tell you
how i would just add it back okay so technically i don't have a fucking clue and it's not my
business to have a clue it's your okay so pause pause pause hang on valor you've been talking a
lot we appreciate what you've said but i want to hear what Neo has to say on this.
Neo, you're proposing some change to the Bitcoin network that can permanently block people from storing arbitrary data.
I'm extremely interested in hearing what your solution is, because so far, zero people on Earth have been able to solve this problem.
You should be able to talk now, Neil.
Okay.
Core is the one that's making the change, right?
So, it's relaxing the filters
and it's increasing to 100 kilobytes, right?
So, usually, Core has been adamant to making changes to Core.
That has been.
So for the first time ever, there has been a switch, right?
There has been.
Now Core is actually making a change.
Core has literally made hundreds of changes over the years.
Yeah, but what I'm saying is I think the problem
is that we are a community
with consensus rules
and everybody has
felt
that this has been, I know
that he has been in this conversation
for years, but not
everybody, right? So it's been in
the forefront
on most of the community of big corners in Twitter for maybe the last three or four months, okay?
So there's been a back and forth where most of them, I mean, I think the majority has, they're in the middle.
They probably don't want spam, but they don't know how to stop it, right?
but they don't know how to stop it, right?
And there are people on both sides.
And there are people on both sides.
But I think the problem is that there hasn't been,
it doesn't feel like it has reached consensus, right?
And I think everybody feels like this is being pushed.
And, you know, I've seen that even videos
from people from Ordinals where they even you know laughing like oh
we kill Bitcoin or this is what
we're going to be doing and they're laughing
do you think that helps?
Do you think that helps?
Because I mean Valerie
I really applaud her
for being here because she's
speaking up. I know she's in
Salvador. She's working on a lot of projects
and the one thing she wants to see is all of that being Speaking up, I know she's in Salvador. She's working on a lot of projects.
And the one thing she wants to see is all of that being jeopardized because of people transacting JPEGs, right?
Which is fine.
You have the right to do it.
But I think what she's doing is not to do it. Okay, so stop, stop, stop.
You're not answering the question at all.
You're basically just saying, don't like people storing Jpegs on bitcoin we all get that we have every single
person here understands that that's your stance what are you trying to do about it what do you
want to do about it yeah well i think you're conflicting what i heard is that you're saying
oh this is this is you're starting you're starting to um what's the word you use um
when you stop something from doing what's the right word i'm sorry english my
second language but um you said oh they're gonna start yeah ban transactions during yeah yeah
censoring yeah what happened is nobody's gonna censor a transaction uh nobody cares what you
use the money for if it's for uh you know weapons or literally the reason bitcoin nobody cares because there's a ton of
nation states who for the past you know 5 000 years have very much cared what you spend your
money on and how you use it and try to restrict that and control people so again that's just
totally incorrect not in not in bitcoin i mean maybe in a stable coin they've done that right
but not in bitcoin bitcoin has been permissionless nobody yes because bitcoin is a permissionless
network yeah exactly however you're basically advocating to throw that property away no no right? But not in Bitcoin. Bitcoin has been permissionless. Yes, because Bitcoin is a permissionless network.
Yeah, however.
You're basically advocating to throw that property away.
No, no. However, transacting JPEGs on the blockchain, if you can pay Bitcoin for a JPEG
that you store somewhere else, that's fine. That's your use.
Yeah, look, look, look, Neo, we get it. You do not like JPEGs. And I honestly, it's a
totally valid stance to have that you don't like,
that we're using Bitcoin Network.
That's bullshit.
That is total bullshit.
He does not not like JPEGs.
Guys, I'm just hearing people that are angry that we're using the Bitcoin Network.
If you want to out-compete us, the black space is sitting there.
We have equal access to it.
Pay for your monetary use cases.
You're probably at a
huge advantage yeah so what's the problem here what's the problem the only way to stop it is to
get adoption for people that people people will pay more for their transact other transactions
that's the only way you could stop it there is literally no way to stop it zero no matter how
much and that's the beauty of bitcoin that of Bitcoin. Ironically, everyone here loves that property of Bitcoin.
That we can't stop it.
What are you gaining by relaxing the photos?
What are you gaining?
We're gaining a less harmful way of arbitrary data.
So they're relaxing it because people are doing more harmful things to put their data in harmful places
that affect the performance so because you guys seriously bitcoin the time hang on hang on
valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie
valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie
valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie valerie And Neil asked a really legit question, and I want Trevor to respond to it, and then I want Neil to be able to respond to Trevor.
Yeah.
So again, so by adding these filters, you are causing more harm because people are going
to put the same information, the same data in a worse place.
So they're going to put it in parts of the code that actually mess Bitcoin up.
So they're going to put it in parts of the code that actually mess Bitcoin up.
And so the reason that Core is removing the limit and removing this filter is to encourage people not to harm Bitcoin and make it slower.
Because the way people are doing it now is making Bitcoin slower.
So they're raising opportunities so people can put their data in a way that makes Bitcoin faster.
So what you guys are advocating for actually makes Bitcoin less scalable
so Neo you should be able to talk about the consequence of you it UTXO bloating, right? Bloating the UTXO, which in your view, it would be worse than this change.
Now, let me ask you this.
Do you believe that there's another way where everybody's happy?
Have you ever entertained that idea?
Because sometimes we're so fixed of our own little, you know, objectives that is there any way where everybody's happy?
No, the Nazis are going to be very unhappy no matter what.
Why?
Because they don't want innovation on Bitcoin.
They're trying to prevent people from actually getting transactions.
What about a second layer?
I mean, you talk about second layers, right?
Yeah, I think those are going to build out.
Inevitably, we have to build out these second layers to facilitate all these transactions
We're all aware that the whole point of Bitcoin is that the block space is gonna be filled if people are actually using it
But no one's currently using it. We're actually providing value by people are paying like all this all this
These meta protocols on Bitcoin you could check and someone did some data on this it's been over 10,000 Bitcoin that were paid for to facilitate all these
transactions a lot of it isn't just JPEGs as monetary transactions through
runes through alkanes or BRC 20 there's a different type of transactions and it's
not all just JPEGs and did you call all of its spam is just completely inaccurate
there's over 10,000 BTC that went to pay the miners to protect the security
budget of
bitcoin so in my eyes i don't know for me like that was my big thing to get into ruins and
ordinals was that i've seen this as a solution to security budget issue and i think that issue
is more important to solve rather than the yeah i'm kind of saying something because we're getting
somewhere dj let me just say this before i know know you want to speak, but I think we should have more dialogue because of this.
What is an approved transaction?
What is a monetary transaction?
Hang on, hang on.
An approved transaction is a transaction that beats Bitcoin.
No, I understand.
But people are not even...
We have not changed Bitcoin in any way, shape, or form.
Bitcoin is exactly the way it was before.
People are not in agreement what money is, right?
What is money?
I mean, it could be if I pay you with sugar, right?
Sugar could be used as money, right?
Are you having trouble using Bitcoin as money today?
Is like somehow Bitcoin not working for you?
Have we somehow hurt Bitcoin and you can't use Bitcoin?
No, no.
Because it seems like it's going really well.
I think what we should be discussing more is the definitions.
You know, what money means to you,
what a transaction means to you,
and all those things.
Because I think we're sometimes,
you know, talking past each other.
And we're not even talking about the same thing, right?
Even if you define money define money may be different than
what is the value transaction for dj value i'm curious neo do you think us using the currency
to buy and sell jpegs is a monetary use case of bitcoin i i think you can pay whatever you want
jpeg whatever i think the problem is when you when you inject the JPEG on the blockchain, right?
That, I think, what's the issue it's about.
I want to dial in on this.
What exactly is the issue with that?
Can I talk on this?
What issue do you have with that, Neo?
Neo, do you mind?
Yeah, go ahead.
Hang on.
Super quick, Neo.
I want to understand why it's... Beyond it, Neo, you sound like a Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Hang on. Super quick, Neo. I just want to hear.
Beyond it, Neo, you sound like a super reasonable person, honestly.
What is the issue, like, fundamentally?
I get that you don't like it.
I don't understand why you don't like it.
I'll be honest, and I said this in previews, you know, because I'm a Bitcoin only now, but I used to share coin, like, many years ago ago, like Cardano and a few other things, right?
So I remember when, you know, we were talking about, oh, shitcoiners because they were doing
all this stuff outside and we didn't want them to do it outside. And everybody was like, oh,
we need to bring them into Bitcoin, right? Now that is happening. I know a lot of people are
complaining. No, you don't want to do it here, do it there. So I a lot of people are complaining no you don't
want to do it here do it there so i'm like what the fuck you don't like them to do it in another
change but you don't want them to do it here in this chain either so there has to be some
it doesn't matter what people want dude you guys don't understand that bitcoin is the most
permissionless the most permissionless decentralized adversarial resistant network to ever exist in humanity yeah does not matter what
your morality thinks and that's why my morality thinks that's why or anything right everybody
because bitcoin is way better than ethereum let me all agree on no no let me say my piece because I have some important points. Are you all 100% certain
that what you guys are doing
is not going to somehow
derail
the main...
100%
100%
I assure.
Buying block space
is not harmful to Bitcoin.
If it's possible... Buying block space is not harmful. Bitcoin. If it's possible that...
Buying block space is not harmful to Bitcoin.
Sorry, I just want to finish this, but we'll go to you.
But Neo, if it's possible that we can cause any issue with Bitcoin by doing what we're doing,
then we should push that and then fix Bitcoin so it can't be harmed by people.
push that and then fix Bitcoin so it can't be harmed by people. We want to stress test the
network now before it becomes too big, that it's too late and we can't do anything about it.
And I think we got to go to Aeon here now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're talking about the anti-fragility of Bitcoin.
I think Bitcoin becomes stronger when these things happen. So I appreciate that you're doing this
because I think you're strengthening the network in a way. But that doesn't mean that we should
have a dialogue on what would be the best course of action, you know, to do certain things.
We don't have to go through, you know, civil wars and soft forks in order to reach consensus.
I mean, we can do it in a more civil manner, I guess.
100% agree.
We're in alignment.
We got to go to Aon.
He's been like, yeah. 100% agree. We're in alignment. We got to go to Aon.
Consensus is not being changed.
Relay policy is being changed.
Relay policy has already been shown to be irrelevant.
Look at subset summer.
We had 90% of the network
using
subset fees
and 99% of the network using subset fees and 99 percent of network filtering it
and yet they all came through we have a million transactions of subset transactions
and um how'd they get through with 99 filters working yeah yeah look hey it's a great it's a great point um yeah like neo bro i i appreciate
you coming up and sharing your thoughts here and appreciate you coming up and sharing your thoughts
um let's just continue to go through the hands here i know a bunch of people have been waiting
uh patiently we're gonna go to thank you thank you everyone for for this and i just want to say
i have two notes and i'm running uh core 29 on one and not some the other one because I just want to say I have two notes and I'm running core 29 on 1 and not
on the other one because I just want to see
and feel the difference because
so far has been all theory
to me and I just wanted to
have it in practice so
I'm not ready to upgrade to 30
yet but I'm
having two notes
and I'll see, I'll play around
thank you Neil, i just following you bro
appreciate you coming up and basically sharing your point of view man you're super respectful
people you're welcome back here anytime dude we appreciate your your perspective thank you
awesome okay we need to understand that running a node go ahead dude i said like one sentence
i just yeah yeah yeah i didn't realize you You need to understand... I honestly thought you were talking,
so we were moving on,
but go ahead.
I mean, I have an entire website dedicated to the Bitcoin security model
as an economically incentivized system,
which is how it works.
Miners are incentivized to sell block space.
Users are incentivized to buy block space.
Running a node doesn't change
the way someone else interacts with Bitcoin.
It changes the way you interact with Bitcoin,
but does nothing to change how i interact with bitcoin writing a node means you can bid on block space that's it that's the main use of a node and that's your economic impact
on miners it's a market dynamic there's buyers there's sellers block space is the commodity
you can't go in and say well these people could use block space but these people can't without having second order effects and saying okay now the government says this terrorist
financing is not allowed in block space and not just you know child abuse pictures right like you
don't want to shoot yourself in the foot by trying to stop some like jpeg thing like you don't you
know you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot
trying to stop JPEGs or your quote-unquote spam
and end up making a network that really sucks
and ultimately wrecks Bitcoin, right?
That's the fundamental kind of logic here.
Yeah, but even still, you can't
because, again, look at subset summer.
It was completely organic, empirical evidence
that filters don't work.
Core didn't change anything.
Nots in every node had subset Bs filtered.
Libre Relay, Nots, Core, they all had this default
of no less than one sat per V-byte. And yet, organically,
in July, hundreds of thousands of transactions and now millions
of transactions have been propagated and confirmed on the P2P
Relay network that were against that
filter which super majority of the network is running and so the problem with filter people
is they are unable to detach their emotional concerns with the rationality of how bitcoin
operates as a free market as a permissionresistant system. And it sucks that you can't control that,
but that's what Bitcoin is. Yep. Very beautifully said. Valerie, just follow us for a second. I promise you we're going to get to you in a bit here. There's a bunch of people who haven't
gotten to say anything. I want to go to Astro, who's had their hand up for a moment. Astro,
what's up? Astro, you got about three seconds if you want to say something otherwise
we're going to move to tuxedo okay tuxedo what's up so yeah uh hello everyone uh first of all i
i want to say something very very different 15 minutes ago but uh i i changed my mind along the way because i realized that uh valerie and
the other yeah so basically just wanted to add about the uh inappropriate materials on chain
which actually already exists since 2012 and uh been developing and you will never be able to stop it.
At one point, someone will start recording like fractions of one kilobyte per block and just merging them all together.
And literally everyone who's running Node today already have it all on their Node.
So there is nothing much changes.
Interesting. Astro, I appreciate you jumping in there um i love your pfp i'm uh yeah i think there was a little bit of a delay there but
we're gonna go back to tuxedo i'll proceed sharing that though astro yeah so as i was saying
i think well valerie first of all uh good job for coming up here and sharing your thoughts.
There is, I believe, a massive, massive miscommunication, misinformation,
and all the words that start with miss because of the propaganda that not guys are running.
Many people, and I understand that deeply, blame ordinals for things they shouldn't be blamed.
I was going for a more technical answer here,
but I realized that common users of Bitcoin nodes,
like yourself, you set up one,
they are under the impression that ordinals can be to blame
for things such as you mentioned.
I'm not going to go over them, all of them,
like pornography or whatever.
I want you sincerely to understand something.
Those things will exist either we have ordinals or not.
People will find ways to put them into the network.
It doesn't have anything to do with ordinals.
Ordinals is a separate market for people to enjoy what they truly want.
And one of the things that really got me into Bitcoin was the single fact that no single person can affect the network or a group of people.
It is the beauty of it.
And it's to your example with the Ferrari. I mean, I paid for my Ferrari. And
actually, people from ordinals are responsible for 50% of the production of Ferraris. And we
advertise this shit. And I want you and others like you, who you're definitely not in the not
guys category to understand, we are not to blame blame here to blame the ordinals is like to
say all right uh drugs are being sold on the market right now okay let's cancel all transactions and
no more selling of watermelons because someone is going to use the market to sell something illegal
doesn't work that way, Valerie.
Tuxedo, I totally appreciate your conversation here and thank you for talking. And I hope you have a great Ferrari and I hope it's red because that's such a pretty color. And I hope nobody
graffitis on it against your permission. And nobody's blaming ordinals. There's no blame here.
So I hope that anybody who's listening understands that that's not my point here. My point is, if we create this decentralized, permissionless network, we have to understand how to protect it as mothers, as fathers, as people who care about its longevity. And so if we're not looking at what goes on the network
in a very scrupulous and careful way,
we can accidentally allow through loopholes, doors, whatever.
And again, I'm not a developer.
What does permissionless mean, Valerie, to you?
Can you define it for me before you go on
for 30 more fucking minutes, please? Just tell me what permissionless mean, Valerie, to you? Can you define it for me before you go on for 30 more fucking minutes, please?
Just tell me what permissionless means to you.
I don't know.
You shouldn't be allowed to see transactions.
You're wrong.
It's that simple.
Excuse me.
Whoever said 34 fucking minutes.
Hello.
Nice to meet you.
Permissionless doesn't mean I'm going to go spam the network.
Permissionless means, in my little tiny humble brain, that I don't have to fucking ask my bank to transfer money to my friend because I want to transfer some money to my friend, a.k.a. peer to peer.
That's what permissionless means.
It doesn't mean, oh, permissionless, let's go graffiti or destroy or put some bullshit on the network.
OK, that's what.
That's literally what it means.
Valerie, that's literally what it means. What you don't think it means is what
it actually means, okay? Like, get it
right. Start there. Start over. Who's speaking
right now? I can't... It's
decentralized, Valerie. It's decentralized.
I don't know who
I'm so lucky to be nice with.
Valerie, who sounds stupid up here,
Valerie? You sound like you just got into Bitcoin
yesterday and you're putting your irrelevant opinion out there for everyone to listen to. Dude, you didn't really stop, here, Valerie. You sound like you just got into Bitcoin yesterday and you're putting your irrelevant opinion out there.
So DGentralize, stop, stop, stop.
She is allowed to have an opinion
if she's new to Bitcoin or has been here a long time.
Fundamentally, Valerie, the point that DGentralize is making
is that you can't, like, it's like have your cake
and eat it too or whatever, right?
Like, you want these properties for BCC, right?
But you probably don't like terrorism, right?
So you want to always be able to transfer to your friend
and not have the government be able to get in the way of that.
But you also don't want to have terrorism.
And what I'm telling you is that fundamentally,
you can't have those things in a provisionalist network, right?
No, you're not listening to him.
He's saying you can't have those.
I agree with him.
I will not shut up.
Thank you so much.
I will not shut up. I'm actually a person who comes to this space regularly. I'm here all the time. And I know a
little bit more about this than you. Degentralized, who was just yelling before, I love that guy. And
he knows way more than I ever do. He has more knowledge in his fucking pinky about Bitcoin
and the network than I have in my whole entire body. But what
Leo is saying is that you cannot have the facility to transfer to your friend without the government
involved, but also control what the terrorists are doing. You cannot have both of those sides
of that coin. It is impossible. You are so right. So I don't know what you're arguing about.
The problem is
can you
transact?
The problem isn't can you transact.
The problem is what is stored on the
time chain. These are two
completely different conversations.
It's the same thing.
It's the same thing.
It's the same thing.
So just pause, pause, pause. I think it's important because there may shit that's what's being transacted it's the same thing yeah like
so just pause pause pause i think it's important because there may be just the educational gap
here valerie when you're making your transaction what is actually happening is you're storing a
small piece of data in a decentralized ledger right and if you tell people what that data can
or can't be it's the exact same as saying you're gonna not be allowed to do a transfer of btc to
this person right it's ultimately all that's happening is a decentralized database that we're
basically storing data in, in a decentralized permissionless manner. And it's all the same.
Technically speaking, you can't have all of this at the same time.
So it's like, you can choose Valerie what you like like like there's a lot of people that are on
the camp that we should i'm sorry your mic muting skills are fantastic so god bless you
managing the space so seriously i know how hard it is because i manage lots of spaces
okay you guys we're not talking about the non-ability to transfer value from a to b what we're talking about is what it's in the
packet and what's stored in time you can't tell what's in the packets valerie you are never going
it's all arbitrary no i don't know who's yelling at me arbitrary okay i'm muting people because
there's uh yelling but um valerie again you can put, like the packets allow you to put any information you want in them.
So you can't like stop people from putting anything they want in the packets.
And if you could, they could just hide it in a new way.
Like you could hide it in a limited time, a number of ways.
And so there's no way to stop it.
So, and it is the same thing.
Your transaction is a piece of data.
Go ahead.
It's not about the transaction being a piece of data.
It's about what gets stored to perpetuity.
Do you guys get that?
The stats are data.
Okay, okay.
I'm going to try to like, you know, keep this organized.
So yeah, Valerie, we totally get it.
We totally get it.
I think everybody here gets it. But what we're saying is in order, like the way that the program works
for you to send money to submit a transaction is the same thing as me putting a JPEG on Bitcoin.
It's literally the same thing. Like you can't, like you can't differentiate the two. Like you
want to just be like,
this is an apple,
this is an orange,
but there's no way to differentiate
between the apple and the orange
in the way that Bitcoin works.
Okay, go ahead.
Are you going to stop unmuting me?
Cause I,
this is kind of boring.
No, I just muted when everyone was yelling.
I understand.
And I,
first of all, pause.
We're going to mute whenever the hell we want to.
This is our space.
I get it.
We're going to run it however we want to.
And if I want to use the mute button, I'm going to use it.
And we'll let people talk when we want them to talk.
We try to have organized dialogue here.
We're doing the best we can.
Valerie, you have gotten to speak disproportionately relative to everyone on stage.
And I appreciate it.
We're not going to pretend that you're running the show here,
but we will let you make the points that you'd like to make
and allow other people to respond to those points.
And that's what we're trying to facilitate here.
So if you have problems with the way we're hosting it,
we encourage you, you can go host your own space.
Otherwise, we're going to continue moderating how we like to.
Seriously, and I appreciate it.
And you guys, seriously, this is a fucking hard subject.
Okay. This is not an easy subject. And this is why Satoshi made Bitcoin. There's not, uh, uh,
an easy solution to try to figure out how to transact value across borders, across,
you know, places where people are having uprisings like Nepal right now and not getting shot by these motherfuckers
who are in power. Okay. And so God bless Satoshi and God bless all of us who are trying to figure
it out. And so I, again, we are artists, we are creatives, we are innovators, we are builders,
and we want to make the world a better place. And as a mother, and as somebody who's got a
mama bear instinct,
I want to protect
the Bitcoin network
so that it doesn't
accidentally get shot down
by the CIA
or the Mossad
or whoever the heck is.
Explain that, Valerie,
because that's the whole point
of the Bitcoin network.
Stop that.
Nobody can shoot it down, right?
I will explain it.
Okay?
This woman has no idea
how the network works.
Let's play a game. Let's play a game called i'm just a pleb
she's wasting everyone's time right now shut the fuck up i am not wasting anybody's time okay
bitcoin is not secured by altruism it's not secured by altruism or it is actually bitcoin
is by economic no it's not you're delusional okay it's fucking not. You're delusional. You might be totally right.
No, I know I'm right because it's
completely understood.
Alright, pause, pause, pause.
Everybody pause. We're going to have to use the lovely mute button
once again.
Welcome to the stage. I'm curious if you have
I'm curious if you have any thoughts here.
any thoughts here.
I'm not even quite sure what is going on.
Yeah, so basically Valerie is concerned that basically the CIA and Mossad are going to take down Bitcoin by using illicit child materials as inscriptions.
And she thinks that's going to hurt her ability to use VTC as the monetary use case.
That's basically what she's saying.
We don't need to go through the whole thing again, Valerie.
But that's basically what she's saying.
It's a point that I've been seeing made.
It's an extremely niche, specific point that I think usually derails conversations from
the actual dialogue. But we're engaging it temporarily here, Shinobi.
So if you have thoughts on that.
Emotional bait.
It's emotional bait to get people riled up.
I think that's absolutely absurd.
To be unable to think about this from a rational.
It's been possible for two years.
Like what is going on here that that has been possible
for for two years up to four megabyte like size files that has always been possible if people are
willing to spread the data around across multiple transactions there is hardcore pornography on
bitcoin right now there are leaked government files on
Bitcoin. There are pictures of Mohammed, which can literally get you executed in numerous Muslim
countries on Bitcoin right now. The Bitcoin blockchain has been used to coordinate botnets
so that there is no central command and control server that can simply be taken offline to shut down the bot. Bitcoin has been host to and facilitated so many illegal things since it has been created.
I don't even know where to start going through them.
Like if you think that that will kill Bitcoin, I don't know what else to say other than you
don't understand what you invested in.
You should probably sell your Bitcoin
and you will regret it in the future.
Shinobi, I think you're awesome
and I'm grateful to have met you
and got to introduce you at El Salvador
adopting Bitcoin a couple of years ago.
And I appreciate the work that you've done.
I am still, I consider myself, I've only-
If Valerie's talking, I can't hear anything.
Yeah, so Shinobi, hang on, hang on.
This was an issue the other night.
Just drop down.
Shinobi will bring you right back up, okay?
Valerie, hold your thought for just a moment.
This will take about 10 to 15 seconds.
I have a tiny two-second thing to say, Leo.
Did I call it or did I call it?
You're going to give us our little 15-second commercial break here.
Well, I just, did I call it, Leo, two nights ago on the Mr. E Zone,
or did I fucking call it T for, to the fucking leo i said these things did i not i said they're gonna come
at you and they're gonna say what about the cp thing and then voila two days later we're having
a big old stupid space about the dumbest subject ever just to be clear we did have a wonderful 1.5
hour conversation with keasy rodimore about his views on bitcoin knots and bitcoin censorship
and it was like super educational i think people found a lot of value in it. We have allowed,
you know, more, more open discourse here towards the end. And we'll kind of, you know,
I'm coming back on my phone because I can't hear shit right now.
That's funny. Okay.
Casey, if you want to play Minecraft with Pokemon, me and Zach are playing a Minecraft Pokemon
server right now, brother.
We don't have to deal with these people, okay?
We could just go hide in Minecraft and catch Charizards, okay?
Do it.
Do it.
Do it.
It's worth more time.
Yeah, why am I not invited, dude?
Come on.
Anyone's invited that wants to catch Pokemon.
If you guys want to play Roblox with Bitcoin Mechanic, that's also going on.
I just said, why am I not invited and he goes everyone's invited bro everyone's
invited if you at least have 50 in your wallet if you don't have 50 in your wallet i don't want
you on my server is that a good barrier i don't know what do you want from me no dude i just
wanted you to say that i was i just wanted you to say that i was the biggest royal garden
trevor you're always invited to play minecraft we can't use the dev on catch a brain rot okay just one more thing real quick yeah i can hear everything
just just one more thing just one more thing real quick if if anyone wants to ban all the knots
nodes from their node from peering just go to my github i have a list to ban all knots notes so they
don't bog down your node and add latency and add bandwidth and reject your transactions.
So just go on my Aon BTC GitHub.
Just ban it.
Alpha.
Let me jump into it real quick before we get back on.
Valerie, for the last few days, the last few things you've been having,
I've been coming on here
and talking real bad about folks.
Now, just like yourself, I'm not a dev or anything like that.
I'm an average person, a truck driver, OTR, 28 years, two more years ago.
Now I've got my own truck, hauling cars all across the country.
And I'm tired of y'all coming on here saying that we're not Bitcoin.
on here saying that we're not bitcoin that's all i deal with all i've been dealing with since 2017.
That's all I deal with, all I've been dealing with since 2017.
and y'all coming on here saying that all news and the rooms is hurting and we're not helping
and how you're the only one out there and y'all the only ones out there trying to touch people
in other countries i don't like you know talking about things that i do but i'm gonna have to drop
this down here now for some of y'all because because I hold out in here listening there's been quite a few ordinals that I've purchased on my own and sent to people in
other countries just because I know the value difference in what it is in bitcoin to them
compared to me here in the states I got nine kids and five grand babies I ain't got time for all that
other stuff that y'all talking about okay and so for you to come on here and y'all to come here and
say that we're not touching people you crazy because i touch people in africa and all over
south america and other parts of the world in asia send them ordnance and rooms that even though i
know they wish they would hold on to i tell them if you need to sell it for your family do what
you gotta do you understand i'm saying so don't please y'all don't come up here and say that we don't love Bitcoin and we not behind Bitcoin all the way.
All right, I'm done.
Hey, nobody is saying that you don't love Bitcoin and nobody is saying that you're not doing a wonderful thing in the world.
So God bless you. What we're talking about is what the purpose of Bitcoin is.
OK, and what the purpose of storing data on the time chain is.
To help people across the world, a third world country that can't help themselves to get them
out of poverty and other things like I've been doing using runes and ordinals that they can sell
for Bitcoin and get out of the position that they're in.
That's awesome. And that sounds like a business model. And so I like to sell lemonade. I like to
sell things that make me feel good. So
we're talking about business versus what the technology is that delivers the business.
All right, then don't come on here and say that us in Ordnance are trying to ruin Bitcoin and
what it was meant to be to help people. I've never said that. Please never put words in my mouth that
I never said. Thank you so much. What I'm saying is I am concerned. I'm a very concerned Bitcoiner,
just like you, who cares about what happens to the future of this network, this decentralized
network. And so I care about what gets stuck on the network in a way that these motherfuckers
called the IMF, called the central banking system, called...
Okay, hang on.
We've done this about four times now.
We're not going to go back through the kind of theory.
But, Valerie, we do get your point, and we do understand that you basically want to censor
certain transactions.
We're trying to explain to you that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
And, you know, we've been through...
This is now becoming a circular conversation.
Kevio, bro, appreciate you coming up, bro. Hope you're doing well.
Shinobi, I know you were having some connection issues and now you're back.
If you would like to say anything, we'll hand it over to you.
Valerie, are you, are you aware of the acronym POSIWOOD?
The purpose of a system is what it does.
Enlighten me, Shinobi. Thank you.
Complex systems don't just do what you want them to do because that's what you want them to do or design them to do or you think is what their purpose is.
They are complex systems. And all that matters is what do they actually do? One of the things that
Bitcoin actually does that is impossible to stop is store data. That's all you
need to build meta protocols on top of it that have mostly nothing to do with
Bitcoin's consensus rules and create whatever rules or procedures or limitations that they want.
You literally cannot stop that. That is the information theory equivalent of the law of gravity.
It is just how things are. There is no stopping it. There is no undoing it. It is the nature of the universe.
And this is an aspect of complex systems that is unchangeable.
The purpose of the system is what it does.
You cannot just make people do what you want them to do with a tool or a complicated system.
They are going to find things to do that you didn't think of, that you don't want them to do, that was not part of the
creator's intent. And all of that is completely irrelevant. The system can be
used that way and people want to use it that way. It will be used that way.
There's no way out of that. So Shinobi, can I ask you a question please?
If we're looking at creating new systems, all of us, right? Everybody here on the panel,
the beautiful hosts and the folks listening, if we're creating something that is different
and better, hopefully better than the existing system that we live in. How do we protect it from getting
polluted by the wrong incentives and saying, well, it's just here. So I might as well just use it for
whatever the heck I feel like. And so how do we protect our future and how do we protect the network? Use it. Go spend your Bitcoin.
Use it as money.
You cannot do anything else.
Like it is a complex system.
It will evolve however it evolves based on how people use it.
And by its very nature and how it was designed, you cannot stop people from using it.
It's that simple.
It is out of your control.
Not everything in the world is something that people can control. And this is one of those things. But let me ask you this, because this is a question that I hear a lot of times when I'm at
meetups and people that I speak with, like, how do we protect
Bitcoin so that it doesn't turn into a shit coin?
How do we protect Bitcoin so that it doesn't turn into something that gets co-opted?
And I know you guys think I'm some conspiracy theorist, but the reality is like we're living
in a world of fiat and we're living in a world where there are people who do not have our interests at heart.
And so how do we as Bitcoiners and people, whatever you call yourselves, whether you're
a Bitcoiner or, you know, the purple yellow bellied snitch from, you know, Dr. Seuss,
how do we protect this new thing that has never been done in the last 16 years from getting co-opted and destroyed by
the powers that be because all of a sudden we can say yeah let's put this little piece of data
in on you use it valerie like i'm sorry i don't know how to not be a blunt prick about this but
the idea that the government would use jpeGs to kill Bitcoin is the most laughably
naive nonsense I have ever heard.
You know, they would use Bitcoin treasury companies.
They would use Wall Street.
They would use ETFs where they pull people into closed systems where they don't self
pull people into closed systems where they don't self custody anything and they have no way to make
custody anything.
them give them their coins if they want them versus the ordinal space which is the exact
polar opposite of that a full ecosystem of people who only self custody who do everything
self custodially there are no custodial ordinals tools or marketplaces.
They're not a thing.
They don't exist.
These people are entirely self-sovereign, self-custodial Bitcoin users.
These are not the people who are going to fucking co-opt Bitcoin.
It's going to be the fucking streets from Wall Street.
The suits from Wall Street.
The people saying just buy an ETF.
Buy MicroStrategy.
Yes.
Shinobi, you're totally right.
It is the suits.
It is the
dark side of
these people who are going to try
to co-opt this.
My question, you guys,
again, I'm trying to be cool and nice and polite here. Like these are the enemy and these are the
people who literally, literally will take one instance of, you know, gaga with her child pornography and the fucking epstein blah blah blah
to get stuck on the bitcoin blockchain time chain to say i've been describing the afghan war logs
for a year okay sorry sorry cb spears you know but just let me talk to Shinobi for a second. Por favor.
You guys, like, I want you to get like nobody is on our side.
And you understand that it's a permissionless sense.
Like I swear to God, we have said the same thing in 100 different ways over the past hour. Valerie, listen, listen.
Fundamentally, I think we have to agree to disagree.
Right.
You want Bitcoin to be a permissionless network, but also censor certain transactions.
And I'm telling you that you can't run your Bitcoin node and like not fund terrorism or
allow people to buy drugs with Bitcoin or whatever.
And also make sure that you can always, without any government intervention, send BTC to your
always without any government intervention, send BTC to your friend. This is not possible.
friend.
This is not possible.
It's why Bitcoin is so awesome is that it is permissionless. And I would just encourage you
to think harder and study, you know, what is it? What is the property of Bitcoin that makes
the network so awesome that makes you love it so much for your BTC use case? And that's the
exact property that you ironically are up here arguing
to degrade and take away. And like, we're trying to make that point. Obviously we're not succeeding
very well. Shinobi, I think it has tried. We're going to see what DG has to say in a second here.
But yeah, fundamentally we're not, we're not going to keep saying the same things. We're going to
have to evolve the conversation somehow here and kind of keep it moving along so i'm going to go to degentralized here
and see what he has to say what's up degentralized
all right well today today's a a kind of a sad day so i'm not really in the mood to roast the
shit out of you valerie but i'll be nice which is very rare by the way um you i'm just and i mean
this in a nice way you have no idea what you're talking about so you should probably stop thinking so hard and then start over with like your understanding of some
of this stuff right like some of the definitions you have just don't exist in real life like
permissionless is not what you think it is um also you are kind of the person like you're you don't
realize what you're doing but you're like one of those quote quote and again i'm trying to be nice
useful idiots where you're doing the thing that's going to help undermine Bitcoin.
But you're sitting here telling us that we're doing the thing that's going to undermine Bitcoin.
But it's like if you just like take a second to listen and which you're really bad at, by the way, really, really bad at listening.
I would know I'm bad at listening, too, but you're worse than me at listening.
So just take a second, take it from someone who knows.
It's hard, but try.
Just give them some give them some ear. OK, they are telling you, you just fundamentally are incorrect at a reality level. Okay. So you can't sit here and keep repeating yourself and trying
to be like, well, morally speaking, we should agree with me because it sounds good in this
terms or those terms. Like that doesn't matter. You're still fundamentally just incorrect. And
there's no, there's no fixing that. Okay. Hey, B you are being the, it's true. It's so, hold on,
hold on. If you really want to help these people, I've been helping these people for 10 years.
The people you're trying to help, the best way to help them is probably not Bitcoin right now.
I'm just sorry to say it.
It's just not.
They can't afford the, it's just too much effort.
The infrastructure is not there.
You know, but storing information that those people would like to get out permanently,
immutably on the internet is probably a pretty useful thing for people stuck in repressive or dreams
Right. Just want to put that out there that that is probably more useful to those people stuck in that regime to get the information out
Then to have some money. Okay, are you honestly insane?
Because I'm not trying to be rude like you said you isn't rude to me the best way possible
So be quiet. You did not attack you.
He just attacked me and he attacked me.
No, I mean, look.
Bottom line, I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree. I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree.
I agree. I agree.
I agree.
I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. The only point of Bitcoin is to help people get out of financial slavery.
Wake the fuck up.
That's what the fuck we're doing, Valerie.
What do you understand?
It's not what you're doing.
We're helping with the adoption.
No, it's not what you're doing.
We're helping with the adoption, yeah.
I would consider myself a Bitcoin evangelist.
I've been trying to get people into Bitcoin for the past four years,
and nobody would take, and nobody is interested interested. The price is too high. It
doesn't make sense. It's been way easier to get people into dog, into runes, into art,
get some more interested in actually using the blockchain. I was able to onboard people from
XRP, from these different chains. I don't know. I see so much value in what we're doing here.
And to me, the whole reason I got involved is because I see this as a solution to the security budget because that's something that the knot side doesn't talk about they don't even want to use the blockchain and I don't know a lot of these points just so ridiculous and yeah it's just it's just becoming over like we're the ones that are actually using the blockchain and adopting people into using Bitcoin and I think that serves a lot of value here so I don't, it's not like we're just doing pictures and memes and like all this stuff. Like we're actually
helping people and teaching them about Bitcoin, teaching them about mining, all these other
aspects of Bitcoin that they wouldn't have never been interested in. And as we move forward with
Bitcoin at the price that it is over $100,000, even more retail isn't going to be interested
in Bitcoin. But they may be interested in dog. They may be interested in MIM.
They may be interested in an ordinal picture.
And that could be their first instance into Bitcoin instead of going to these shit coins,
which has kind of been the other option where people go and gamble on these shit coins that
aren't actually holding value.
We all agree that Bitcoin is perfect money.
How do we get it to that point as we adopt?
We get people into bitcoin and
runes and ordinals is just an avenue for doing so and if you want to help people by the way just
like realistically people do not adopt like these crazy popular dollars everywhere in the world they
stop some local random currency thing that is a makeshift thing to get them out of that position
and like we can't just give them machines to access bitcoin mobile phones to access bitcoin
that rely on the
internet that's being shut down around them like you got to remember if you send something to the
internet like the blockchain for example and it's a cry for help nobody can get rid of that file
that is much more valuable than being able to send somebody that's about to die 50 okay that's an
oppressive regime okay okay cool guys um we have jose day up here who has been waiting patiently Okay. Okay, cool, guys.
We have Jose up here who has been waiting patiently.
Jose, I don't think you've been on the Ordnance Show before.
Welcome.
Did you have something you wanted to add?
I've been in the Bitcoin space for a long time.
I've been a developer for 30 years.
I've been hearing some of the arguments back and forth.
And I think one of the things that we need in the Bitcoin community right now is to go
back to our roots. And our roots was we were united in our cause. The network will choose
what will survive and what will fail. Want a prime example of that? Go look at PSV and the
block wars. You want another prime example of that? What's happening now with Notts?
The network is going to vote, and it's going to vote with people's feet,
and then the majority of the nodes are going to win.
And if the miners want to keep doing pub key attacks to increase their fees
or do whatever the hell they want and bloat the hell out of the UTXO,
the developers have to do something.
Now, I'm going to tell you something, and it's a dirty little secret that not a lot of people know.
Just because Bitcoin has withstood the test of time to this point,
it's a testament to the cryptographic and thought process of the consensus mechanism and the fact that we separate the
mempool layer from the actual consensus layer at the base layer, right? Just like we do lightning
layer too, because you don't need instant payments at the base layer. That's stupid.
If people, 51% of the network wants to use Bitcoin as Ethereum Lite, you know what's going to happen?
They're going to find a way to do it.
I don't agree with the current 180 kilobyte op return because I think it's excessive.
I think we needed to experiment a little bit before we put it out there.
There are saner voices that say that.
Other people say, no, just do it all at once.
You're going to eliminate the pub key attacks.
And there are valid reasons on the technical side why they want to do it
that maybe end users don't understand.
Unless you're a developer and you've been in the trenches,
you're not going to get it, right?
But as a developer, you also have to educate people.
And how do you educate people?
By finding middle ground
because they need to understand
what those pub key attacks are.
I bet you half the people on here
don't even know what that is.
It's actually something we've talked about
for years on this show.
Okay, I'm new new so i'm sorry but
i i think there are some people here that are noobs that really don't know that much and that's
fine and it's something we've been talking about since for like literally two and a half years
okay yeah yeah i mean yeah i mean yeah i mean because this show is focused on storing jpegs
on bitcoin like there's a few ways to do this.
So we're all decently knowledgeable around the various approaches to this.
And there's some approaches that are more aligned with Bitcoin and making it more decentralized.
And there's approaches that maybe hurt Bitcoin or not as helpful to Bitcoin. And literally pretty much everybody listening to this show wants to be as aligned with Bitcoin as possible and not store our JPEGs and bump keys.
So we're all pretty aligned with you on this.
Excellent. So I think that's the key, right right the network is going to do what the network is going
to do it's going to sort itself out i don't think we need infighting i don't think this whole knots
versus i'm not against knots i don't think it matters all the other node implementations that
were out there they they have less than 1%. Apparently there's traction here because some influencers are
pushing it. But also they've gotten to talk to the users in a way that scared them, right?
Pushing CSAM, FUD, and all that stuff. I totally get all that. It's FUD. Here's the reality.
Whether you run Bitcoin Core or you run NOTS, you're going to get CSAM if there's a 180K limit because it's proven.
The big blockers tried it, and they had it happen within days.
Now, there's already classified documents on the Bitcoin blockchain.
I don't see the government knocking down all our doors for node runners trying to arrest us.
So that's
also fud um there might be c sam in there and if there is the developers will do something about it
at some point uh even the the blackheads figured it out right well say what's the difference between
putting it in plain text and opera turn and in witness is there a functional difference? It's cheaper in the Op return.
Does it make it not CSAM?
No, because
it's more expensive.
It's the other way around.
If you do it in the Witness, it's going to be
more expensive.
Right now, if you open the
180 kilobyte limit, it's going to make
it cheaper, and they're not going to do it.
And they're also not going to do the puppy attacks.
That is objectively wrong.
Why?
The witness discount gives all
bytes of the witness program
a three-fourths discount
in terms of data that it's paying fees for.
It is cheaper in the witness.
That's why Casey put it
there. He said that like two hours ago.
Okay, so why would the 180 kilobyte
limit help that then? Why are the developers
doing that? Is it just for the pub key
attacks? It doesn't
really have anything to do with ordinals. It has to do with
second layers. I think, what was
it? Citria?
There's constructing proofs
for data included in the chain.
It's cheaper in the output
because you don't have to go
the double depth down
for the Merkle proof
to have an inclusion proof.
Okay, so regardless,
in the end,
people are going to innovate
and find ways to do it
if they want to do
it and the network will vote on it i'm just convinced the knots camp is playing with a
smaller deck of cards like there are there is an objective technical awareness asymmetry and it
like everywhere i go there there's playing with fewer marbles and they have they actually
objectively know less it It's really weird.
The JPEG people know more like a year ago.
I thought these kinds of spaces.
Love you,
Leo.
Love you,
Trevor.
So fucking retarded all the time,
but like,
here they are.
And they're like,
no way more about how the show works at typing level.
I never thought I'd say it,
baby,
you know,
that was before I got here. That's taken, Charlie offense taken. I'm sorry. I never thought I'd say it. Baby, you know. That was before I got here.
Offense taken, Charlie. Offense taken.
I'm sorry. I love you, Trevor.
Valerie, might I suggest selling some hats with like four letters on them?
Maybe camouflage style?
I hear that's a really good way to affect the Bitcoin consensus
and get your way.
And that was a really productive comment, right?
Please stop encouraging cargo culting the UASF.
Fuck hard. are you fucking serious
talking to me that way i am here to fucking help people and so the fact that you say that
tells me who you are and how you are so go fuck yourself i actually agree with that i actually
fuck degentralize yeah strong point. I like that.
Yeah, I'm now getting up on Degenralized.
I mean, I've got to say, though,
I love Degen, and he's helped me a lot.
So, you know, shout out
Degen. Shout out Degen.
I'm retarded. Hi, nice to meet you.
I feel like
this is a part of a friendship. I feel like
Degenralized and Valerie are going to be like best friends going forward.
I don't know. It's just a feeling I have.
No, I think we need to introduce Valerie to Colton, and then this will get interesting.
Stop it.
Oh, man.
Stop it.
Be nice.
Yeah, but Valerie, in all honesty, if you want to help people, maybe you should stop misinforming them.
You have an audience.
You have podcasts.
You have an audience. You have podcasts. You have Twitter spaces. If you spread
your misinformation to other people, the last thing you're doing is helping them.
What is my misinformation? Please inform me. Thank you so much.
We've been over this for the last two hours. Not again.
No, no, no, no, no. I want to know specifically what is my misinformation the only thing that i'm doing right now is asking
questions and none of you to this point has answered them being lifted in policy does
absolutely nothing at all to change whether objective disgusting material can be put on
the blockchain it is possible to put that shit on the blockchain
right now and allowing larger operaturn transactions to relay around the network
makes zero difference in how easy it is to do that. It changes absolutely nothing. That argument
being propagated is complete FUD and factually total nonsense.
Okay, Shinobi, I am not propagating an argument.
I know nothing about how this shit works.
And that's why I'm here on this space, because I'm asking questions.
And I want to understand as a fucking normie how this stuff works.
And so I can share with my audience who are also fucking normies how this stuff works. And so I can share with my audience who are also fucking normies,
how this stuff works. And so fuck all of you who are attacking me because I want to understand the
truth. I think, I think you just need to step back a minute. You're right. And they're right.
You're right in that. If you run your own node, you want to not have CSAM on your node. It's going
to be very difficult because there are ways of doing it. And if people want to use have CSAM on your node, it's going to be very difficult
because there are ways of doing it.
And if people want to use it for that, they will.
The tendency has been when it happens in the op return
because other blockchains have done it.
Now, can it be there?
Yes.
Is it likely there?
I don't know.
I haven't actually seen a block.
If one of you guys are saying it's there,
can you prove me a block where it's at?
Because I don't think it's on.
You can't really see it even.
You have to have an index here to even.
Exactly.
It's not something you can just pop together.
But now with 180 syllabi off return.
Let me ask you this, please.
I'm so sorry because my screen is not showing who's speaking.
I want to tell my audience that it's safe to run a bitcoin node whether you're
doing bitcoin core or not okay it is and because it's scary you guys it is very scary people here
see them they freak out it's definitely safe it's definitely safe and that fud hit home to a lot of
people that are normies and i think it's a nefarious FUD that they pivoted to when they
weren't getting traction. Now, I'm on the other side of the fence on this. I don't think the
180 kilobyte op return was smart. 83, maybe 160 bytes, maybe. But I still see the FUD for what it
is. Normies need to understand that blockchain at 180 kilobytes is going to have a
bunch of garbage on it but the blockchain already has classified information from wikileaks that's
been on there forever and nobody's knocking at your door to take you to jail for classified
information right because that information is still classified. Nobody's intentionally doing it when you're running a node.
And the last thing we as a community need to do
is disincentivize people from running nodes.
That is like the most asinine thing we can do as a community.
We can have our own internal arguments about stuff and disagree,
but don't fearmonger people into not running.
I'm going to be honest to say, like I genuinely kind of a little bit align with what D.
was saying before, like Valerie, you are basically being used by a group of people
who have an agenda and they are using a specific style of propaganda to basically
polarize you and have you spread a message, but it's not to the end of that.
You think you're spreading the message.
It's so that they can achieve a totally different agenda.
So that's actually what's happening here.
Exactly.
They love this up here basically doing this right now.
And I promise you, the reason Luke Dash Jr. is doing all this stuff has nothing to do with any of this argument you're making about Mossad,
you know, attacking Bitcoin with like child-alistic content.
He just hates that people are using Bitcoin for
anything other than money. That's fundamentally the divide that's happening here. And when we
go down these like weird kind of forks of the conversation, it's basically just meant to create
noise. And yeah, basically a certain, you know, certain people who basically don't understand
the complex dynamics here in the game theory, basically say, well, okay, I can't be on the side of that. And therefore I have to be on the side
of Bitcoin knots. And that's just not at all the case of what's happening. Yeah. And it doesn't
even work because here's the deal. What do you think happens when Bitcoin is not is let's say
Bitcoin knots, it's 50% of the network. Do you think that your op return limit is actually going to prevent people from mining those blocks?
The majority of the people that run core, which today is still 80% plus, they're going to be on core.
They're going to be on the default value for core because it's called the tyranny of defaults for a reason.
If it's a default of 83
bytes guess what you go look at your node right now that's 83 bytes right now because i bet you
you haven't changed it right so here's the thing that they don't tell you you could run core right
now even 30 when it comes out go up into your node change the config and roll it down to zero if you
want because they've only marked it for deprecation.
That doesn't mean they're deprecating it today or tomorrow or in a year.
There's been some things that are flagged that have been sitting there for seven years.
But if you dislike that and you want to control what your mempool has on your node,
on your node and as a node runner you have that right you can switch to knots or you can go set
and as a node runner you have that right, you can switch to nots.
the uh op return to zero in core and if they deprecate it from core then you can switch to
knots and it's just as simple as that in the end the stuff's still going to get mined it's still
going to be on your machine because once it's mined your mempool policy doesn't matter for
shit it's on your on the
blockchain because you have to they're gonna hash it and you're gonna have to need it so that you
can go to the next block so you have no control over that but they don't explain that to you what
they tell you is oh no no no no because it's in your mempool it's 180 kalybytes now you're gonna have c sam uh yeah you're gonna have it anyway because once it's
valerie i think it's important to realize because like i don't think anyone here believes that you
are being disingenuous or or like uh like everybody believes you when you say like your
focus and goal is to basically make sure that people you know in authoritarian countries can
transfer btc and have an alternative to fiat
currency. And we all believe you're totally justified and we're actually totally aligned
in that. I think what we're trying to say is that you have been basically told that the biggest
threat to that is somehow us inscribing monkey pictures into Bitcoin. And if you really,
really care about that, I can give you multiple things
that are a much more significant issue long-term for Bitcoin that the vast majority of people
believe there are some levels of more credibility to, which is Bitcoin's basically block subsidy is
just going down every halving, it's getting cut. And the only way to secure the network eventually
is going to be fees, which means we need to have high demand for block space.
So ensuring that people are actually using Bitcoin L1 and that there's high demand for block space is an existential crisis that Bitcoin faces that we need to solve long term.
OK, like that is an actual issue that I think you should, you know, look into.
It might be another thing that maybe you can become passionate about that.
You know,
we have a hard time kind of getting through to people. Yeah, there's lots of other, lots of other passionate kind of areas for you to care about that are like super legitimate problems that
Bitcoin faces. Shinobi also brought up that, you know, this whole movement towards paper Bitcoin,
custodial Bitcoin. If we eventually head to a world and we're moving in a direction where nobody
actually holds Bitcoin and everybody is, you know, all Bitcoin is just held off chain and some
custodial architecture, all of a sudden this like quote unquote decentralized network, you know,
the powers that be have been handed over to basically a bunch of governments who then control
those centralized entities. And we sort of failed in a degree there. So there's a lot of game theory
here. There's a lot of ways like we have not succeeded in our goal long term. We still have to fight for these things.
And yeah, I think these are important issues that we should all care about. And there are
real threats to Bitcoin long term. It's just not monkey pitchers on Bitcoin. I promise you,
that's not a useful way for you to spend your time focusing on making sure BTC, you know, becomes the world
of their current. I totally, I love, I love exactly what you just said. And not once have I said
monkey pictures on Bitcoin are a problem. So please don't manipulate my words. Okay,
please. Thank you. What's a problem is anything else that could take the bitcoin network down you guys like
nobody fucking is arguing about yay let's have artists and people who want to sell their their
creativity to each other whether it's in the form of a podcast or a song or a jpeg like good for us yay let's rock and roll however if we're using the network that is
supposedly created for freedom of transactions because we don't want to be violated and
manipulated and raped by our fucking central governments and our central banks and all these
motherfuckers who don't care
about us, then we are not caring about the Bitcoin network. And so I have nothing.
Valerie, you literally just said that you basically don't want to see monkey pictures on Bitcoin.
I don't care about monkey pictures. When you first came up here two hours ago,
the point that you made was that art shouldn't be stored on the Bitcoin network. So that was
the specific initial point
that we then responded to and you're now saying you didn't make so either you're okay with us
storing art on bitcoin or you're not so i'm going to give you a moment to clarify do you think we
should be able to inscribe our art on the bitcoin network yes or no my body yes i just quickly
there's no less yes leo yes do you want to hear it or not?
Yes, there can be a yes or no.
Do you think we should be able to do this on the Bitcoin network?
Yes or no?
Can artists store their art on Bitcoin?
Yes or no?
Okay.
So I think everybody listening to this now understands where the position is.
Clearly, it's not just about the illicit child content that a moment ago you were claiming it was.
You have a very specific stance.
And what I'm telling you is that focus of not storing art on Bitcoin is not the biggest threat to Bitcoin. the illicit child content that a moment ago you were claiming it was. You have a very specific stance.
And what I'm telling you is that focus of not storing art on Bitcoin is not the biggest threat to Bitcoin by a long shot.
My body.
Look at my body, okay?
I have zero tattoos.
Oh, God, no.
No, no, no.
I know.
God, no.
Stop, stop, J-Dog.
Stop, stop.
For God forsaken that shit.
Valerie, Valerie, stop.
We don't need to go into things that are like tangential.
Just wanted to clarify where things are at.
We're going to reset the space for a moment here.
I'm going to pause.
I'm going to pause.
We're going to mute everybody for a moment.
Valerie, we're getting a little bit off track again.
We're bringing it back.
Brian has come up, and he's been waiting super patiently.
And we would love to hear what Brian has to say. Brian, we're going to hand it over to you.
What's up, man?
What's up? I was actually going to comment.
Hey, Brian, can you try talking again?
Yeah, I was still muted there. I think you tapped it again there.
Yeah, that's the thing. I didn't. It's literally been bugging out when I tapped it. It's weird. I apologize for that. I'm sorry.
But a lot of times there are people who take advantage of like narrative and spinning it a certain way and then telling people that something is going to happen based on that narrative.
And then if they understood a wider viewpoint of like the facts, then they would get that that's just a narrative that they're using to like take advantage of you and
turn you into like their mercenary. I don't know. Like, I don't know you, Valerie, and I'm not
trying to be disrespectful. But I think that this will make a little bit of sense. So hopefully it
does. But when it comes to like what you're talking about, So storing data on your node that you don't want to be there,
because people can take advantage of it and do like an attack and like, put all kinds of this
stuff and just graffiti the blocks with it. Right. And you asked earlier, like, like something about
like, I don't know if you said, has anybody ever seen this or whatever the thing about like,
first of all, institutional adoption and like all
of this like big adoption that we're talking about when it comes to Bitcoin, like they're not worried
about cartels doing anything like that because it's been decided. The writing is on the wall,
like hundreds of billions are coming on chain and they're not worried about a meta protocol,
the data of a meta protocol,
that's not going to stop them. And that ultimately, that's my point. So ordinals is a meta protocol,
it is not even recognized by Bitcoin itself. So when you're looking at Bitcoin blocks,
and just experiencing and you've got your node on your device, and you're going through blocks or whatever you're you're in the mempool
you are not going to notice like any images whatsoever you might notice like the structure
of the transactions if you know how to look at that kind of stuff but it's just arbitrary data
and you can put whatever kind of arbitrary data it is not arbitrary data i mean honestly i'm so sorry that you're so
about this nothing is arbitrary data okay if you're putting fucking okay we'll let brian
finish and then valerie you can respond go ahead brian i'm just defining that in it
oh man it's doing it sorry guys um it's i literally hit unmute yeah it's broken it's fine
okay it takes like 10 seconds then they can talk again all i all i was doing was using that as a
technical term like to pair so like the way that meta protocols work is that like the data that
that is inscribed the data that they use that's in Bitcoin is not recognized by Bitcoin
Core. It's only recognized by those meta protocols and anyone that's running them and rendering that
data into whatever file type it is. So people can inscribe JPEGs in Bitcoin. There's all kinds
of different file types they can put in Bitcoin. And then you can render those files as visible in your browser.
And the problems that you're talking about are as easy to deal with as
flagging that file as a malicious file so that it doesn't render in browsers.
And there's developers...
So how does one...
I'm trying to be really cool and peaceful here.
How does one who is running node as a fucking normie say, I want to flag a file and say,
I don't want a picture of a little girl who's 13 years old in her underwear on my.
All right. All right. All right. Okay.
We're going to just move on from this, Brian.
I appreciate you making your point.
We have Hills. Welcome up Hills. I'm going to unmute.
It'll probably take 10 seconds for people to talk.
We're going to go to Hills.
If Hills has anything that she would like to add. And then Jose,
we're going to go to you and we're going to get Bob up here as well. So Bob,
I think Hills had to drop down. She might have trouble hearing people. But, yeah, we'll go to Bob after Jose.
And then if Hills comes back up, we'll let her jump in here.
Why did you not let me go?
Okay, I didn't let you go because you're derailing the conversation.
We do understand the points that you're making.
We just have to keep the conversation flowing so we're not making the same points over and over.
That's basically all it is.
I'm not censoring you.
You've made the point very clearly.
We do all understand your stance.
We'll bring you back into the conversation, but in a way that adds new information.
I want to go over to Jose.
What's up, Jose?
What's up, Jose?
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Jose, are you able to talk?
Okay, I was muted for some reason.
Okay.
So what do you tell your peeps?
Okay.
This is simple.
Do what's within your control.
What's within your control?
Your mempool policy.
So you tell your peeps, set it to zero.
Then on your node, that particular op return is going to have zero bytes. So nobody's going to
do anything with it. Game over. That's it. Not even Nots does that. Nots sets it at 40 bytes.
Okay. But I'm just saying, that's what you tell your peeps. Shut it down. Turn it off. It's your node. That's all you have control over. And then if that FUD turns out to be a reality, which I seriously doubt, then guess what? When they knock on your door, you say, look, I put it at zero bytes. I can't control what miners do.
bytes i can't control what miners do i'm just participating on the network in order to have
access to the network privately through my own node they're not going to throw you in jail
yeah listen listen obviously it's like we're giving too much credibility to this i we're all
completely aligned we're all completely aligned if there's a day where we ever you know end up
this is like a super serious problem i promise you a lot of very smart people uh are in bitcoin and we can deal with it it's not a
problem at all today and yeah we're gonna go to bob here um okay jose i appreciate you sharing i
just want to kind of move us along we've talked about that specific topic i acknowledge him at
this point want to move the conversation along bob um what what's up, man? Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm like, it's fun listening to all this and stuff.
I think homegirl dipped out or whatever.
But I was more on the side of like, wouldn't it make sense if there was like some, like,
if she wanted to be some sort of police for this type of stuff, why wouldn't she try and
like find the wallets inscribing these types of things and put it on a list? It's like, okay, just link the list, do something on your
own and say, all right, these are the wallets that inscribe these things. And these are
blacklisted wallets that do bad shit. And it's just like, make a fucking list.
Yeah, Bob, exactly. There's people who use Bitcoin to try to fund terrorism. And there's
entire government agencies who, instead of punishing the entire Bitcoin network, specifically creates task force to go find
those people and deal with them. So that's obviously how this stuff gets handled. Again,
we don't have to... I just feel like we're giving way too much credibility by
airing her so much here, and probably did too much of it. The point was
made very clearly. We talked about it. I think it's time to move on.
There's lots of aspects
to this filter conversation that I think are super productive that we need to discuss and
have dialogue about. And that's what we're trying to host here. So we'll move the conversation
along. But Bob, I appreciate your point. I think you're totally correct. Tuxedo, what's up, bro?
So we are dealing with a very serious problem at the moment. I'm not talking about Valerie.
with a very serious problem at the moment.
I'm not talking about Valerie.
Valerie was just a small example of what we are dealing here.
If indeed Bitcoin is what people want it to be,
then the other side, they are manipulating people
at such a degree that they act like NPCs.
I mean, just the fact, as you said, Leo,
that we had her over two hours now.
I mean, imagine if I go to any maxi space and start talking nonsense.
They will kick me out in two seconds.
We had her for two hours because we genuinely want this message to get across people that
the fact has no basis here, but we need to come up with a plan and counter attack this propaganda.
I mean, if it spreads further, Valerie, as I said, is just an example.
We need to do something here. Do you agree?
We can remain retarded longer than they can live.
No, no, no. A very wise man. You guys might know this guy.
He once said, if you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you.
Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. The answer is guys,
we're going to keep the world is retarded. Go full retard.
Yeah. The answer is we're just going to keep doing what we're,
we've always been doing and not spend all of our time focused on super niche
stuff. But the bottom line is, you know,
Valerie was allowed to be up
here in the spirit of there's dialogue and conversations going on right now about updates
to Bitcoin as a network and the future of Bitcoin. And we want to facilitate those conversations
and allow people of multiple perspectives. Obviously, Valerie had a very different perspective
than what Chris came up here and talked about. I want to get in the head and understand these
people who are obsessed with making sure that we censor monkey pictures on Bitcoin at all costs,
even to the point of taking away Bitcoin censorship resistance. It's a very bizarre
train of thought they've gone down. And I genuinely trying to understand myself and i'm hoping by having open dialogue here uh the listeners and you guys and in the ordinals
and runes this ecosystem can understand at least where this group is coming from and their logical
line of thinking to at least try to make sense of what's going on here i think if you want to
i'll explain it yeah i'll explain it it's my fault it's it's my fault
it's fucking you everybody in the fucking dragon's den's fault for the fucking uasf
because nobody actually understood what the fuck was going on and how that worked and why it worked and ever
since then they've just been cargo culting it there there's just like little pop culture priests
that popped up around it that had no fucking idea like what actually happened and then just
passed down their like distorted mythology around it and if you
don't know what a cargo cult is it's in like very remote places with like aboriginal populations
that have never been exposed to society before when civil when when we show up with like planes
and land and like unload a bunch of shit they like think it's like some ritual and a bunch of populations
around the world literally have like dances and rituals that they started performing thinking
that that would make the plane come back with more stuff it's it's from the vietnam war actually
yeah because they would lift up the phone and then like a plane would like the soldier would, would pick up a phone and then the plane would fly by and drop the cargo.
And then when all the soldiers left,
like they tried to just pick up the phone because they thought the food would
get dropped from it. And there's another good example.
I think it's called the five monkeys experiment where basically they put,
five monkeys in a room and they put a banana, like bananas at the top of a ladder.
And if the monkey tried to climb the ladder,
they would spray with the hose.
And so they did several times and the monkeys would then like attack any
monkey that would try to go up the ladder to get the bananas because they
got used to getting hope the hose.
And then one by one,
like basically that was the last time they ever gave the hose because
one by one, they would replace one monkey with a new one that never saw that.
And then it would try to get the banana and all the other monkeys would beat the shit
out of it again.
And so they replaced all the monkeys one by one until none of the monkeys had ever actually
seen anyone ever get the hose.
But they still beat the shit out of any monkey that tried to go up and get the bananas from the ladder.
That's the five monkeys experiment.
Wait, did they ever get the banana?
No, I mean,
hopefully the scientists, like, you know,
have some humanity and they stopped running
that experiment and just, like,
gave them the banana. Yeah, now they're running that
fucking experiment on us go back to the monkeys dude i'm done i'm bored i'm tired
fucking experiment on us. Go back to the monkeys,
dude. I'm done. I'm bored. I'm tired.
um okay let's go uh let's go over to hills what's up hills are you able to hear us i know you're
having some technical yeah i don't know what the hell's going on can you hear me yeah yeah we're
able to hear you okay good um this whole thing is stressing me out like i've just been having a fucking existential crisis
since hong kong i was around so many toxic maxis like just trying to like defend
ordinals as a protocol or like just the activity or the idea of any type of activity on bitcoin
it's unbelievable to me like this is, I was like hyperventilating
being back in this situation
where I'm having to defend things to me
that seem so logical.
I'm thinking exponentially.
I'm thinking in the future.
I'm thinking 12 years from now
when we don't have the block reward,
what the fuck is going to happen, you know?
And it makes no sense to me because all
these people have been just bitching and complaining for years about Ethereum, about
the EVM network, about all these L2s, about these activity, this DeFi, every single fucking thing
that's happening on every other chain. And it's coming back to Bitcoin. You have the opportunity to bring in
this engagement, this activity, these mining fees, this mind share, and this fucking market cap.
And on top of that, the Ordinals Protocol provides you with this beautiful, brilliant
way to lock up satoshis that people will forget about or be paranoid that one day these,
you know, stupid meme coin inscriptions are going to be worth something. So I'm,
I'm either going to forget about them or lose this wallet or whatever. So it's,
it's basically the dead wallet theory on steroids. Like to me, this is the best thing that's ever
happened to Bitcoin. And I don't know how to explain it to these people like i don't i sincerely don't know like there's not an argument i've tried they're just not
listening to a fucking word you say so i think dgen is right in that sense that it's just like
if you like just maybe surround yourself by forward-thinking people that have a vision, that believe that this is the future, not only
in the sense that we have to protect the nature of decentralization, we have to protect the block
reward. We need miners. We need all of these things to coexist as an ecosystem. How do we bring
more people in as the block reward goes down and i think you know casey just really
concisely spelt that out for everyone and sometimes i feel like i'm a fucking crazy person
like i'm the only one thinking this and you know maybe i'm not i i don't know i've just been like
literally having a meltdown since last week last week so yeah you have to be you have to be careful getting all of those things bomb it sorry shinobi i didn't hear that what would you say all of those things
vomit i.e you can do your way through demise
look bottom line uh yeah it was i think it's important when you're having these things.
I think during the block size wars, a lot of people got super polarized.
And basically at the tail end of it, it was just massive, massive gaslighting.
And I do think just human beings were susceptible in our brains.
We want to believe people have good intentions and this sort of thing.
And what happens is you ultimately end up either gaslighting other people or just they're gaslighting you and this sort of
stuff just starts to happen. And I think you have to kind of know going into a debate or really
spend a lot of time thinking about what your values are, why you're doing something at a
really fundamental level, and just kind of hold that close to your chest and always have that
with you when you're in
these conversations. Cause yeah, look, I mean,
if you go into a Bitcoin max space and there's like 10 people calling you
like the super evil,
unethical thing that you're doing not what Satoshi wanted,
like you can actually start to believe that. Like, I mean,
there's all these prisoner of war experiments where unfortunately like five
years later they get freed and they're like totally brainwashed and yeah,
like just be careful. Like one, how much time you're spending with a certain ideology
um including us maybe i don't know um but yeah just everyone has to decide for themselves at
the end of the day like we're all independent human beings we get to decide what we believe
in and what our values are and what you know we are set out to do here on this earth and this life. And, you know, fight for those things that you really deeply believe in and don't let
people influence you.
Because, I mean, I totally have been in a theory of different debates and stuff.
And it's like gaslighting is effective.
And you'll sit there questioning what you believe.
And it's tough out there.
It's very tough.
And the human brain isn't necessarily meant for this sort of dialogue on the internet,
the way this is all happening. So, um, we can, we can all relate. And I would just say, uh, yeah, I caution, you know, spend 10 or 20% of your time thinking
about this sort of stuff, guys. Don't spend a hundred percent of your time. Like Valerie is
about some super niche specific thing like that. I promise you, it's not a productive way to spend
your time. Just keep building, keep focusing on everything else. Occasionally we'll host
conversations like this on the ordinal show, but't let it scramble you know up your brain
and like you know screw the wires up in your brain which unfortunately like does happen for a lot of
people when you spend all the time that you have on the internet just fighting and being negative
and gaslighting and stuff so be cautious be cautious with what we're entering here with
the bitcoin network kind of entering some of these these conversations again that we thought died down after about a year ago, but have come back.
Yeah, don't let this consume you.
Don't let this just dominate your thinking.
I mean, I'm just coming at it from my perspective of somebody that doesn't have a technical background, just, you know, trying to understand it as a home miner, as, you know, somebody that's been in the ecosystem.
If you're thinking about somebody with even less time here, experience, whatever, you know, we lean on the people that are in core.
We lean on the people that are, you know, more technically savvy.
you know, more technically savvy. We lean on the devs to tell us what the hell is going on.
We lean on the devs to tell us what the hell is going on.
And when they're using that for their own specific purposes, whether that be religious or political
or whatever, it just pollutes the mindshare and it can be very dangerous. And I think,
you know, I think you've, you've have an open mind platforming people, but at the same time, it's kind of scary to see how far these false narratives can go in a very short period of time.
And to be clear, you can shut that down a hundred ways.
Word.io is filtering this shit.
The indexes are filtering this.
You shouldn't be able to see any of these
things. So it's not that big of a deal. It's something that is fundamentally uncensorable.
So how do we, you know, I don't know. I have no answers. How do we shut this down in a way that
that is swift and that is concise and, you know, doesn't ruffle that many feathers. I don't know.
Yeah, this is a repeat of the, you know, hey, you guys are using the Bitcoin network to sell drugs
and you're funding terrorism. It's a repeat of the same exact kind of line of reasoning that,
again, like you can let that infect your mind. And the people having those conversations 10 years
ago, you could have easily come away thinking,
hey, I can't participate in Bitcoin because there is somebody out there
using this to fund terrorism
and I can't be part of that.
And I even understand the line of thinking.
I think at the end of the day,
the greater benefit of Bitcoin,
obviously there's some negative aspects
of every technology.
Literally every technology humans have ever invented
has been misused for bad things by bad people. But that doesn't mean everyone using it
for good things is somehow doing something bad. And like, of course, the net positive for humanity
is so much more important that we get that benefit. And it would be a real shame if we just
all said, you know, we can't use any technology where somebody can misuse it. This goes for
basically every technology ever, including when we invented FIRE, right?
So, yeah, it's all something where you kind of have to just sit by yourself and think about what you value and enter these conversations and, you know, be able to step away at the end of the day and, you know, leave the Twitter space and, you know, be able to just go about your life and continue doing what you're doing.
and be able to just go about your life and continue doing what you're doing.
And yeah, yeah, I genuinely, I'm not saying it, it might sound silly,
but like Valerie, I think is literally an example of someone
who probably is spending way too much time focused on that specific issue
and it's just not beneficial for her.
It's not beneficial for the Bitcoin network.
Yeah, so, okay, Jose, what's up, bro?
Yeah, so I think censorship just doesn't work, period.
It's been proven historically.
It doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it, how many narratives you come up with around it.
It just won't work.
You know what works?
What we're doing here.
Debate.
You know who said that?
You know who said the minute the debate stops, the civil war begins? You know who said that? You know who said the minute the debate stops, the civil war begins?
You know who said that?
Charlie Kirk.
And he was right.
So he went around the country debating.
Because as long as you have open debate and discussions, censorship,
and all the nefarious things that these goofballs want to do to Bitcoin,
what's going to kill Bitcoin? You guys are absolutely Bitcoin. What's going to kill Bitcoin?
You guys are absolutely right.
It's going to be lack of modernization as a blockchain,
lack of the ability to drive fees for the security,
lack of if at some point the consensus mechanism breaks down
and the scarcity goes away,
if the security is threatened in any way,
if nation-state actors collude with the likes of BlackRock to fork it
and actually have billions of dollars in ETFs behind it to allow that fork to happen,
that's a hell of a lot more existential than some of the horseshit
that we're kind of going back and forth with nowadays.
You know, censorship is just not going to work because it's just the narratives always
fall apart when they're false.
Yeah.
And I think like I do want to make very clear, like we're, again, entertaining these conversations
on the show because it is a dialogue that's happening in Bitcoin right now.
And we want to make sure that there's different viewpoints that are able to come kind of represent all sides. I'm going to be just completely honest.
So far, the advocates that the Knot side has sent have done a very poor job of making compelling
arguments here on the show. Maybe they'll send somebody who's like super smart and able to
be more persuasive. But that just hasn't, that has not to date happened. Maybe
it will happen. Oh, they're very persuasive. They're not smart. Maybe, yeah, they're persuasive
to a certain type of person. But look, bottom line, guys, yeah, we're here trying to host
conversations and have a dialogue and discourse about this. And we do believe that's super important. I think it's like very core to Bitcoin is that we're able to have these
discussions. And like, this is how governance happens on Bitcoin. Like there is no elected
representatives. There is no CEO. There is no board. Like literally what's happening right now
on the show, you know, the spaces that Shinobi's in with the other Maxis, like that is literally
Bitcoin's governance happening exactly the way it's supposed to.
And like, we want to be part of that.
We're participants in the Bitcoin network.
We use it every day.
You know, we believe we have some sort of stewardship and duty to, you know, be participating
in the discourse in the Bitcoin network.
And like, this is the discourse in the Bitcoin network that's happening right now.
And it happens to be a group of people that are basically directly trying to attack us in some sort of way. So we're just hosting the conversation
so that people can come up. And we have been giving people generous amounts of time, including
Valerie, to make their points. And everybody listening is able to make up their own mind about
what they think about what Valerie said and the validity of the different arguments. I muted her,
Trevor muted her a few times.
That wasn't because we didn't want her to be able to have a chance to say what
she wanted to say.
It's because she was kind of going on super long and just basically saying the
same things over and over.
Yeah, guys, we've got a bunch of people on stage here.
I know we were kind of going around and going to hands here.
kind of going around and uh going to hands here we have run out of hands and if anybody wants to
We have run out of hands.
come up and share their thoughts um you know okay well i want to shill uh my pokemon minecraft
okay go ahead go ahead uh one of these days i'm gonna guilt trip casey to hide uh 10 bitcoin in
the minecraft server guys so you guys should all download minecraft like you know you're bored
anyways well you get off the internet you guys don't need fucking therapists if you just play minecraft
instead you can save like ten thousand dollars on therapy and then me and zach need people to
combat with in pokemon you know i want to take my craft uh yeah i think it's java right yeah
one point it just it's on curseforge there's an add-on basically called uh uh uh uh fuck i'm
choking i'm choking i'm choking uh big chat guys plus it's like stardew valley
plus pokemon plus fucking engineering so you gotta like literally build a rocket ship to the moon so
like we can actually take the url yeah i got you i got you i want to know what yawn's thinking yawn
i've noticed yawn's been really quiet during these past two ordinal shows. Jan, how are you doing, man?
Yeah, what's up, dude?
Jan, you actually are your robot voice.
We can't hear you super well.
Can you drop down and come back?
Valerie's DMing me, calling me a coward, and to get on his faces with her.
Look what you've done, Leo.
Look what you've fucking done. Are you serious?
I'm serious. Well, I i'm sorry you've triggered her she's gonna be on my dm's talking
though tell her there's a very helpful support desk oh yeah geez i have like a ton of dm well
now now you have plausible deniability to like say all this crazy and end it with
in minecraft because you can talk about. She called me the biggest loser ever.
What did you call you?
Decentralized?
She called me a coward.
In her defense, dude, you called her a moron.
I didn't ever insult her like that.
Well, she is a moron in Minecraft.
I don't know.
Like I said to you the other day, I got an issue with you, Leo.
Let's just start talking shit to Leo.
Leo's been platforming the dumbest fucking people in all of Bitcoin.
Bro, in my defense, this is the best part. you like they have if they send somebody better like we'll
let them up here they just haven't like it's their okay well the better people know not to show up
because they'll get bodied because they know they're only better in their little bubble and
that's how it is all right we got yawn connecting again we got trevor coming back up i think there's
some technical issues with the space.
Tuxedo, what's up?
There are literally 100 people right now calling us terrorists across Twitter.
I have reading comments from the so-called Maxis.
By the way, they are no Maxis.
We are more Maxis than what they are.
They are minis, the best case scenario.
And they are calling us terrorists.
Well, they are calling things mostly to Leo.
They probably think that the masked man is our leader, which is not the case. But yeah,
they are calling all sorts of names. I don't want to say them, but...
Wait, I honestly can't tell if you're being facetious or if you're serious, but if you actually sell something funny...
I'm 100% serious.
Yeah, yeah, read it, read it.
I'm curious.
What are people saying?
They are calling us cancer.
They are calling us terrorists.
They are calling you a scammer.
They even insulted our precious dog.
Yeah, I mean, look, the general...
We've been dealing with this for two and a half years,
and the general attack factor is basically, one, I think literally a lot of them actually
believe that, like, it's not, like, obviously what's happening is a lot of us were doing
NFTs on other chains, and, like, there's actual artists that like selling their art, and there's
actual collectors of art, and there's actual dgens that like speculating on 10k PFPsfps and we've all been doing that on other chains and we found out that you can do it
on bitcoin so of course we wanted to do it on bitcoin that's obviously what's happening um i
think there's a lot of people in their camp though that i think legitimately believe that we're all
here with the sole purpose of attacking bitcoin and like that's that's why we wake up every day
and that's what motivates us and yeah it's very hard to argue with someone who like just fundamentally is like very out of
touch with reality um but we got jan we got jan back up here what's up dude
can you guys hear me now
okay yeah man i've been rugging quite bad um man i don't really know what to think man i'm just
listening i i kind of treat it as
entertainment, to be honest. You know, it's a morning entertainment for me to get me going
because I really, I don't get smarter from these debates, you know, when I listen to
those kinds of things, you know. So that's kind of my point of view right now. You know,
I don't really learn anything new. just feels like you know listening to somebody
who complained something in a very irrational way and so like i really don't know what to think and
i don't know how to contribute to the conversation to be honest because i'm just like you know me i'm
nice calm guy you know i don't want to argue with anybody so you know i just don't know how to
contribute so that's what i think bro but uh i also agree with you that it's important you know
to probably have these conversations otherwise you know there is no change that we could there
is no chance that we could actually maybe help them at least a little bit you know to change
their point of view leo this is how they want you to do it though because i mean yan sorry leo uh
yan if you you're you're gonna die brother in like 100 years of your lifetime, you're dead, right? Like, this is the thing.
If you spend all your time, like, trying to help the dumbest people on the planet and not show them the way to let them, like, lead themselves to education, that's how you waste your life, right?
So I don't mean to be mean to people like this, but it's just, like, the reason the fucking Satoshi said that shit is because it's not worth your fucking time, bro.
Like, new people are born every day.
Educate those people. Don't educate the old motherfuckers that are too stubborn to listen bro like
but they don't matter they're irrelevant they're gonna be dead in 20 30 years they're they're not
part of the consensus for long okay that's the thing they can sell as many fucking hats as they
want to it doesn't matter yeah i mean in any of these conversations like i guess theoretically the goal is to like convert
valerie and chris to our side obviously that's like the biggest possible win but
it's obviously not like why they're here and that's not the goal uh per se it's literally
to just allow people from the other side to to share and voice their perspective so that we can
understand because i mean look we all have like a lot of us on stage and a lot of the listeners we're all very aligned with each other
we have very similar set of beliefs and yeah I mean the best possible way to understand what
these people think and why they think what they think is to just hear from hear from them directly
we've enabled you know a couple of these couple of these people to come up and
I mean yeah they're not doing a yeah, they're not doing a great job.
They're not doing a great job.
We'll see.
It's because you don't want to do five or six weeks.
Charlie, do they have a single person that's super credible to come up and make a point?
I'm being serious.
You had Chris Guida, and honestly, he's probably one of the better arguers
because he's like a dog who will not let go.
And also, he's one of the few that sometimes I feel nice towards because sometimes I don't think he means badly.
I made this joke that he's like that dude from Memento where he just wakes up every few hours and forgets everything.
memento where he just wakes up every few hours and forgets everything because i'm like i there's
like there's a bunch of scenarios where we're 50 tweets deep i'm not i am not exaggerating 50
tweets deep and he's like you've never made this point before like yes we have and uh and uh it's
it's insane and so um the other people rely on rhetoric. Chris does not rely on rhetoric.
He has this war of attrition that he's very good at.
The thing is, is that all these Maxis rely upon the same handful of thought leaders.
And they have been incubating in this like monolithic think boy this this group
for a long time and so they're incapable of pulling out of that and looking at other and at
at uh at other things and so it's never about the argument it's simply about what is comfortable and
familiar and that is what they and that is that's like their heuristic for making
decisions about stuff um it is ridiculous that the argument is uh focused so much in the past
two weeks on c sam and cp that is insane uh that is ridiculous and i uh i want to wholeheartedly
condemn that because they're trying to drag you into this topic,
and they are fucking obsessed with it.
They cannot not talk about that topic.
Then there is an increasing tone,
and I had this opinion before the event today,
and I don't want to drag this.
I don't want to cross the wires here.
There's an increasing tone of equating trolling,
like such as the IBD joke troll that Portland floated a couple weeks ago,
or the goal of, or this like very rational, very reasonable,
like opportune standard rule change.
There is a tone right now of equating that with violence in the bitcoin network and this is being perpetuated by the leaders of this movement
it is crazy to me and uh now you started getting people like saying really like
violent not just like insinuating violence like saying i hope people dox you i hope you do not
live past x like this is crazy to me and this is this is not just
like one or two people these are there's a bunch of accounts and it's being uh tacitly and in a
couple places explicitly endorsed that we need to fight against this violent like uh these violent
actions by the spammers crazy to me um i can we put up a shit coin to put up our own node software like i said the
other night so we could just get like 99.999 of the fucking node count just to prove a point and
then tell these idiots to go away or what i love this trolling idea it's just ineffective just
have everybody change their user agent like that's all you have to do you could honestly you could yeah you just said you're using it but
like the thing is um as i said like the the knots camp is on average with the exception of a few
individuals they are just playing with uh fewer cards they actually understand fewer things they
don't actually know what's happening on bitcoin they don't technically understand what we're
talking about they they cannot even understand some of the basic analogies, even imperfect as they are. They
simply do not possess the same information and they do not want to acquire it. So I don't know
if you can actually have a productive argument because an argument assumes that you're able to
reveal facts and have a dialectic and that just can't happen
um also we're all blocked now everyone everyone except for life was blocked i don't know how life
was not blocked that man has is like maybe the only hope uh uh for the entire ecosystem
bro she's just like colton bro her tweet a minute ago yo fuck you elon don't censor me because i
drop f-bombs like what are we doing up here yeah i will point out there is there is definitely like
a venn diagram of like the bitcoin not supporters and like just obsessed with conspiracy theories
around somebody's coming to get you like i've very clearly seen that and yeah i'm gonna be honest
it's concerning i've also seen what charlie's talking about um i kind of just ignore it but uh
yeah like at least from our side like i just genuinely view us as like just super straightforward
like mostly good people obviously there's like grifters who come in and scam but they usually
leave the space um after like a few months the people who are here right now, I think it's like just in general, like good people
who love Bitcoin and like we love experimenting and tinkering and building things on Bitcoin.
And yeah, like we're just, we're like our culture is so far removed from a culture of
people that is like threatening to like kill someone or do this sort of stuff that it's hard to process
and even kind of have discourse with those people. But yeah, man, it's definitely like we're very
much, we're like in a totally different bubble of Bitcoin than a lot of these guys. And every time
our bubbles collide with each other, it's very odd it's it's very weird when these people come on the
show it's hard to make sense of exactly you know what's going on have you ever heard of storing
images in pub keys yes we've been fucking talking about it for years now not normal people like know
about this most people on the stage don't but like i post talked about this every other fucking day
sigh did i did shinobi other, I know for a fact.
And now it's like, there's this like,
some of the nots people are like,
well, I guess you could.
I've never heard of this before.
The reason I haven't heard of it before
is you're just like dealing
with functionally less information.
Sorry, thanks for letting me like,
you know, crash out here.
I just like cannot believe this shit these days.
Hey guys, I'm not a uh dev i've
listened to more shinobi than i care to admit though so i'm paying uh let's say that i'm
paying attention to the conversation still ramping up my understanding um but it's even my uh i think
i understand that that shinobi considers most of you guys degenerates, right?
100%.
I'll speak for Shinobi and say he calls us retarded degenerates like every 30 minutes.
So, yeah.
And we embrace that.
Just to be clear, it's a skill issue difference, and he's just a lower tier of Bitcoiner, you know?
Yeah.
He's today's fighter with the topic du jour.
So like all of these, you know, I'm a monetary maximalist.
So I think you guys think at some point if, you know, Bitcoin continues a run that like all the non-monetary use cases are going to go to essentially zero. Right.
So I'm, I'm, I'm also a free market guy. So this notion of, you know, kind of competing,
you know, I, you know, philosophically I've got some sympathy for that. Right. So, you know,
bid the price. Right. So, but, you know, with the way things are shaping up, I mean, nobody wants shit. Like right now I'm actually doing an IBD because I hit right at the terabyte limit.
I don't want that shit on my hard drive.
You know what I'm saying?
Gregory, what weighs more, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers?
Yeah.
So you're saying, hey, look, you know, we're going to like, you know, we're paying for our stuff.
So, you know, take our stuff.
So this is a market.
So, I mean, I get it.
Yeah, I mean, if you didn't want the blocks to be four megabytes, you shouldn't have made them four megabytes.
You know what I'm saying?
It's like whether it's monetary transactions or JPEGs, it doesn't really matter.
We're not changing anything fundamental about Bitcoin and the assumptions of how much would be stored on a node.
And we're basically storing these things actually in a way better way.
So yeah, I don't, yeah, you can run a prune node if you want.
There's also this thing called an Electrum wallet.
You could just get rid of this whole problem.
Just download that instead.
You're good.
Yeah, no, I could do that too.
But as it turns out, if you run a, like separately a prune node that it, I had come to find out that it actually doesn't, uh, uh, there's all sorts of, uh, it's, it's, it's basically, uh, I found out firsthand.
It's sort of, it just, it's basically doesn't do anything.
That's because Cora has an assume valid flag.
So it makes you download the full archival node.
Yeah.
So you can turn that off and not assume valid,
but again, it's the whole thing.
But I guess, you know...
You still have to sync when you run a prune node,
but when it finishes syncing,
you're going to have way less storage space used.
Yeah, but it wouldn't even boot the lightning,
because on one of them, I'm running an umbral, and the lightning wouldn't even boot the uh lightning because i'm running on one of them i'm running
an umbral and like uh the lightning wouldn't even boot yeah that that that needs you need a i don't
know about lnd but with core lightning you need a plug-in to use it with a prune node so i just
went out and bought a fucking you know two terabyte drive but you know basically that's where we're at
guys right so i literally had to go out to fucking best buy but you know basically that's where we're at guys right so
i literally had to go out to fucking best buy and get another and that's really because we are
how much did it cost i'm just curious well i mean it's like you know more's laws 100 bucks right so
yeah i mean yeah whatever i think it's all good but i mean it's not that bad during the block
shows where he kind of said well it doesn't seem like it's going to be prohibitively costly at four megabytes among other reasons but like so far
bitcoin's kind of doing what we uh kind of expect it to at the at the last block size war
yeah um i mean like we've got, I mean, isn't this,
like Shinobi,
you've been around forever,
so like the big block,
I'm still coming up to speed.
I did get the Black Wars,
the Audible,
so I got to listen to that,
but it feels very similar to that.
It does,
but it's Jupiter.
You're storing data.
It's even dumber than the block size wars because that was at least a clear-cut
argument over a consensus rule change whereas this is a bunch of very very fucking confused
people and a couple of scumbags lying to the confused people who think that you can just like not change consensus but stop things
from happening and it's just fucking weird at this point it's there's no other word for it
but at some point we're all learning right so i mean particularly now with ai like i am teaching
myself how to code so at some point you know i'm going to be able to sit down with you shinobi and go over the fucking code right with you know ai and i didn't you know never studied a day of
code my life but we're all like in some sense you know be doing more stuff be very careful with ai
that is a double-edged sword it can just as easily help you learn faster as it can just confuse you
and fill your i mean i'm just saying like you and I would sit down, we'd go, okay, Hey,
we're like, what are you saying here? Show me the code, right?
Show me the code where you're talking about. And I'd say, Oh, okay.
Now I get it. Right. That kind of thing. As, as we learn.
This issue shouldn't require that level of understanding at all.
Like if people actually listen and think about things
well i need to run an ordi you need to run an ordi indexer client to actually formulate an image of
the data you're storing on your node without that you're not even storing an image you're just
storing a bunch of arbitrary data that makes up an image if you export that data and make an image
out of it no but like how do you stop you can't stop we took literally the most people in the entire crypto world the nft class and
we taught them all of this stuff from the ground up and now they're like running circles around
talking about policy consensus meta protocols arbitrary day it like blows i i hate to say it
greg but it is disappointingly a fact that your average ordinal retard understands Bitcoin technically better than your average maxi retard.
Like, that's where we're at.
A couple of quick points, just in response to that.
One, you know, there's 8 billion people on the planet, right?
the planet, right? And how many of them are banked? And like, we're talking about 2 billion.
And how many of them are banked?
Like, we're talking about 2 billion.
So we're talking about having this thing be the world's, you know, money. And so that's kind of,
as we think about this thing, right? And so also, you've got, you know, a fair number of,
you know, for whatever reasons, people that have become attracted to this thing might be,
you know, like blue collar guys, you know, working all day.
And he's like, for some reason, you know, trusted all his life savings.
And he sees, you know, JPEGs on this thing.
And, you know, he gets violent thinking about, you know, I just, you know, worked a job as
a plumber all day.
And, you know, like, I take my money very seriously.
And JPEGs are not serious, right?
Yeah, well, you know what?
I fucking work every day and there's some fucking degenerate in a casino in Vegas that's going to walk out with like a million dollars.
Yeah, it's the same thing, though.
You guys got to stop referring to all this as images, guys.
It's just fucking data on the goddamn chain, all right?
The way you extrapolate the data changes what it looks like.
Of course, no shit.
It can look like an image, but it's also just a fucking...
Dude, this is like a meaningless, fruitless, like, argument to harp on or a road to go
down.
It's not an image.
There's no images.
You're not storing images on your node.
You're just storing data, and that's the way it's designed, and you're not changing
That's not the not with these people you know if you're looking at our financial system and you know like the whole thing and
looking at it as like a ponzi and this is our plan b i mean you can see where the visceral reaction
of you know so i kind of you know i i do kind of see both sides here really well here's here's the
reality like nobody's using it like
the only thing people are doing with this is like holding it or leaving it sitting on an exchange
and no one's actually using the space so from a philosophical point of view it's literally a bunch
of people looking at something they don't use being being used by other people, and getting mad about it.
It's ridiculous.
I like to think...
Well, I was kind of mad when I had to go get my hard drive.
So there is that aspect.
But I hear what you're saying.
That's where the market is right now.
That has nothing to do with these people.
You don't have to go get a hard drive.
You don't need that.
You don't need to put yourself through this to use the chain.
None of that is any of
these people's fault like we've had full blocks for fucking forever on average the marginal increase
is not that much like it's not like every block is nothing but jpegs like we've been averaging like
1.6 megabytes since segwit really like took off in adoption like they're not making that big
of a fucking difference like this is the block size this is what we all opted into the maximum
growth rate like i'm i still only have a terabyte drive on my machine like i'm fine i still have a
hundred something gigabytes on there like you probably had a bunch of other data besides your copy of the blockchain or something on there or like yeah it was you should use an
ssd anyway like you should use it on a on an external hard drive yeah i mean that's the best
way to use it then you can like give people copies and you can like i have like five ssds with like a
copy of it on each one yeah but your
ibd is slower on an external but it you know whatever whatever it's not like usual yeah no i
but i mean for the people that came at at this thing because we're fucking pissed off at wall
street not through uh you know that you want to fuck the bankers like this stuff you know is you know that's why i don't
you see a do see a fair amount of uh level heads say this thing is is making a mountain out of a
mohill so in order to use bitcoin you have to uh have arbitrary senders send to arbitrary receivers
which means in order to construct a transaction, there has to be some level of
arbitrary data. Now, the same dynamic that makes Bitcoin censorship resistant to nation state
control is the same dynamic and network effects that prevent you from censoring these arbitrarily
constructed transactions. And we're really just arguing about the dimension to which consensus should allow an amount of
arbitrary data.
But it really, if you want to get down to it, there's functionally no limit.
It's just about how efficiently it can be put on there.
And when you talk about consensus, like, is there, you know, places, and this is where
like, Shinobi, you're saying getting into the code, the consensus code.
The consensus isn't coded in, my man. It it's just it's like an extrapolated thing you gotta understand
and a it really just boils down to miners and money and y'all don't got either so that's why
the code changes aren't going to go in your way you know that's kind of that's what it boils down
to if you don't want to talk about the details of everything so say so you're saying consensus
is more just crying on twitter is a
consensus and neither is a full node you know what i'm saying like the money is the consensus
and we were in a peer-to-peer relationship and now there's a you're not a peer though
like we're not here you're watching the network we're getting upset over shit that we can't
control we are your your uncle who is watching Fox News and shaking his fist at the TV.
That's what we are.
And the sooner you accept that, the sooner that you can be proficient and not get angry
and learn about doing things that you want to change and, like, working towards that goal?
I think Shinobi even concurred that all these
shitty, like, to the extent
there's monetary, are being, like, people
are buying into this notion that there's going
to be value. Eventually
all this stuff is going to get crowded
out by economic transactions.
Monetary
transactions. Because you guys, I guess, are...
Yeah, we compete for the
monetary transactions i mean if you want to distill it down to that they are
what were you what was your take in 2023 when when bitcoin was like 35k the jpegs were popping
off and there was a whole heap of people who like 10x their sets and and put it into bitcoin is that not like
interesting to you did it not make you interested no i mean i've always i mean that's when like i
was like it's a good bitcoin 22 and oody came on stage with his wizard hat
this is the problem lenitis this is the problem this Leonidas. This is the problem. This was our spokesperson in 2022.
And this is where we're at. A man in a wizard hat got on stage and called all these people fucking stupid.
And this is why we're here arguing.
Where's the lie, Hills? Where was the lie?
The people that they got on stage for, remember, it was Eric and Udi and they argued who?
Matt Corallo and Shinobiobi and they argued about some
dumb jpeg thing and the funny thing is all four of those guys are now on the anti-filter movement
so it should tell you something it also takes people a long time like you go back and you talk
to the retard who got his uh collectible card and his cigarette packet back in 1960s and
he dumped that shit in the bin and didn't think about it and then you've got the guy who scavenged
it who thought it was a great card held it for 40 years and sold it for a million bucks it's like
dude we're humans no one's gonna agree the drama's always gonna be there but like i think
anyone who watched what happened with ordinals and doesn't see the value that
it brought and doesn't see, let alone so many people were playing with JPEGs on other chains
and didn't hold a single, like, set, and now they were onboarded to the mother chain via
JPEGs.
Like, there's so much positivity that you can find if you look in it from the Ordinals
space and ongoing ongoing let alone where
it's going to go in terms of collectibles i think you'd have to be absolutely close-minded and
retarded to not think that there is the collectible aspect and it is uh digital art inscribed on l1
i'm frying bigger fish my friend what so what's a bigger huge fish dude you said you were plumbing all day like we're
onboarding people to bitcoin we are driving use cases for bitcoin that drive up block space
demand for block space we're spending billion people on the network we're then because the
block space demand is being driven up that's causing vcs to come fund innovative solutions
to scale bitcoin on l2s we are literally using btc as money to denominate that's causing vcs to come fund innovative solutions to scale bitcoin on l2s we are literally
using btc as money to denominate that's how we think in our brains we are literally using btc
every day to swap we are literally using btc as a blockchain every day like we're using bitcoin
more than anybody on planet earth is using bitcoin how is that not exactly what you want people to be
doing like what's more important than that?
And one thing you just said was very interesting to me.
You said there's like, what?
How many, what was the stat you just threw out?
So many people don't have bank accounts on this planet.
What is that?
I don't understand what that has to do with it.
We're going to fucking, if everyone in.
I lived as a vegetarian for three years and didn't want the uh like all the
gases i didn't like how carl cows were setting off gases and hurting the environment and then
i gave up because you can't change the planet you got to be realistic with your you know your
whole like we've got a shot if you're looking at this thing if it's got the survival properties
we think it does then you know it does i'm just
like you're just not thinking big big picture enough you're not thinking far enough in the
future like you're totally 100 accurate so is valerie or whatever the hell her name was like
about you know bitcoin bringing banking to the masses to people that are in rural areas to people
that can't don't have housing can't a bank account, can't get a loan.
This is like the major number one use case.
What we are talking about is bringing all these driving forces and transactions and interest and speculation to Bitcoin to make sure that it is too big to fail.
I don't think that we're completely at that inflection
point. You know, we need these other mechanisms. We need these other use cases. And honestly,
probably the biggest use case for Bitcoin probably hasn't even been invented yet. But this is what
we need. We need builders coming to the space. We need them coming from other chains. We need
people thinking about the next 10 15 20 years and not
whatever problems we're facing right now as far as like growing pains i it was just like casey
said like we need to start thinking about this now i don't want you know like we don't want to
do this last minute and and just get screwed you know so it's just it's just about having an open mind and you also you also has
to believe in something like you've got to actually like believe in what you're talking
about we sit around here i truly believe in it i will fucking die on my hill you can come to my
house and i will argue with you until you leave you will not change my opinion you've got to
believe in something we all believe in it we've been here for nearly three years we're very early this frog picture no this frog picture is at 16k inscription range that
means 16 000 of 100 plus million and i believe that collectibles have a place on the blockchain
and there's going to be people who will love to argue and they want to come in and shower you with
all the information but those are the same dudes who would have told the punks in 2017 to floor that stupid pixelated character
it's not worth the 3 000 you brought it for this is 2019 it's worth 3 000 at this point or whatever
it was and then in 2021 we have some crazy experience where the whole world see something
new and people put their value into
different things that they didn't understand until that point in time i think this is like
that's kind of what i was going to say though like literally you're just you're going in circles
about the biggest point here's it is two sentences okay the onboarding does not come from the
technical aspects you are prescribing to it comes from making fucking money that is how we've
historically onboarded people if the bean
candles don't show up for people they will never come here it doesn't matter how precious your
technical standards are it doesn't matter no one gives a shit the users don't care by the way
uh so make them money which means from zero to a thousand out of poverty you want to help people
get out of poverty you help them get rich well they're all going to get rich on these hold on
you don't you don't you don't get them you them, hey, hey, there's this small chance that some guy across the planet stores a file on this piece of software you're probably not going to run.
So therefore, we're going to undermine the ability for you to make money to get out of the poverty you're in by taxation, by the way, not by the blockchain.
You got to think about –
It's the taxation that's the issue.
So the only way to outdo the taxation is to give them profits.
So if you don't do this on Bitcoin, then they're going to do it on some other chain,
which means that it's going to happen on Bitcoin no matter what.
The data on Bitcoin is not about pictures.
It's not about the pictures.
It's about, I can take $0.05 and I can put $1 million of value in data on that $0.05.
That's what you're trying to take away from people.
Chill out.
First of all, I got the Minecraft mod installed uh I need to join you and then second of all I got you
the response to Gregory is that um fighting against the filter movement is fighting against
degrading Bitcoin's qualities as a permissionless monetary network the attempts to filter Bitcoin are reducing Bitcoin's function as a free and open
monetary network. Now they'll likely fail. Everything is working against them. But it's
an attempt misguided to try to reduce Bitcoin's uncensorability and freedom. And this is the
irony is that the people who are probably most interested in JPEGs but they're also very interested in money and and disrupting the order they are the ones trying to preserve
Bitcoin's monetary qualities as this unique uncensorable you know all your your your 21
million all that yeah quite sure where I heard it but I think it like there is a technical layer
but prior to the technical layer is this philosophical layer of, you know,
the social philosophical layer where, you know, the notion of why you are coming into this thing
does, you know, does matter. So to the extent that this thing is thought of, it's going to,
you know, attract a certain person and detract, like to the extent you know wall street would understand it as just you know
a dumb thing that you know you know that's happening that's not serious uh that's not you
know i i used to think that gregory i used to think this and this is kind of the mythos we
created over the past like five years post blocks as war in the like modern Bitcoin maxi podcast narrative creation era. But Bitcoin is an anarchic system and it's neutral and it is code.
And so like I Bitcoin got to where it is by people's motivations.
But this is I actually think it's a big misconception that like there is a philosophy of Bitcoin
because the philosophy of Bitcoin is
the consensus and the consensus does not care about your Austrian economics yeah also I I
really hate to break that to you dude you abbreviate your name to Greg and you might enjoy it
honestly you can't you can't like be serious all the time it will kill you wall street is not like the gods
like there will be a generational wealth transfer where like ai right a retard can prompt and
generate animations now and they're usually the most creative there's going to be a point
where wall street's not going to have a say in what anyone's doing everyone can prompt their own tech all your technical analysis is just going to be like redundant to a certain point other than
like the hardcore like what you're trying to preach like you know keep doing it whatever
but the masses aren't like that the masses are not going to be into it they don't want to read
everything and learn up on everything and be all dry and going
to bed upset at night.
They want to have fun, post memes, create tech if they can, using the cheapest model
of whatever AI software they're using.
And this is the way the world's going.
You can literally ever get with it, or you can leave your full name in your face as your
JPEG.
But I expect there will be a pivotal point where you're going to show up
wearing a wizard and we're going to have another conversation it's going to be hilarious at this
time so i'll take a quick screenshot now that's done but there's gonna be that exact moment and
like you can preach to the choir all you like but dude you you have to see that there's no say in it. Like, memes rule the world.
Funny cartoon pictures rule the world.
People literally pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for consultants
to set their websites up, to look this certain way, to attract that certain audience.
We want to use stylistic stuff that makes people feel bubbly inside,
like Fortnite, all of this shit.
People are getting paid in Web 2, right, to talk like that.
In Web 3, that's the standard, that's how we all operate, this is how the JPEG cult
works, this is how our accounts grow so much faster than a normal person trying to grow
their account, because we understand attention, attention attraction and how money works and
how money flows and we know that it flows directly into stupid shit so this conversation is literally
it's like beating your head against a wall because we all know where it's heading and it's like it's
just a point in time so honestly like i would recommend take a load off get into your comfiest
pair of slippers or whatever.
Probably get yourself like completely nude,
I'd say in your own house and just,
just go out,
have some fucking fun on your computer to degen into some shit and learn how
it's all working.
Because all this stuff that you're saying is like,
it's just,
it's not what we're all talking about.
It's not what anyone's into.
And it's not going to have an audience.
I don't want to totally give like a hundred percent validity to this argument that we're just like a bunch of dumb jpeggers i agree like it's kind of funny to say that no say it leo i want to hear it
that exact word from you please the most accurate depiction of what's happening here is basically
a bunch of people who like think sunscreen's bad for you are being attracted to Bitcoin
by this not-crowd, Gregory.
It's not the brightest group of people in the world.
You're arguing that we're attracting bad people, they're attracting good people.
Most of the people here are like Silicon Valley-style builders who would probably be building
AI companies right now.
They're coming to build the future of finance on Bitcoin.
There is a legitimate side of everything, even though we joke about our retarded, stupid stuff.
I do have to hop for just five minutes.
I will be right back.
Trevor, Jan, please moderate the space.
We're going to go to 92.
I'll be back in five minutes.
Oh my God, what is it?
He goes to 92 as he's leaving.
All right, guys, dad is left.
So we're going to have a party now.
No hands, just go at it guys hell yeah well i'm not gonna throw personal darts like that but uh gregory props to you for fucking just absolutely
shield walling shield walling that um but so it seems like some people are upset uh because bitcoin may be compromised in some way maybe like affecting
their vision of how it would ideally be but then that assessment is incorrect apparently and then
people are just refusing to see that that's incorrect and can like just continue to like
barbarian world world of warcraft swing
their arms in man in madness and anger is that pretty much correct yes yeah so what how do you
yeah how do you help how do you help people like that right like it's not even about like pictures
and stuff like for me uh i don't know if shinobi's still around, but I think, you know, because this is a decentralized system, right?
And what I think, you know, for me as this thing has played out, how I've been seeing it is really the whole, you know, the core developers.
And really, like you could look at some of the companies like ChainCode as being a vector of attack.
And that, you know, and so to the extent, like Shinobi's giving me a thumbs down.
Can I ask you a question?
is is matthew cratter a person that you respect i just want to know
Is Matthew Cratter a person that you respect?
I just want to know.
i'm i'm you know the thing about bitcoin it's beautiful is it doesn't fucking matter guys
because uh like it's not your keys not your coin right so like everybody's got to like figure this
shit out on their own so that's yeah that's a very good point and so i mean i think i think
it really really please correct me if i'm wrong like Like I am stupid, but if I'm correct, then it's this. People are afraid that Bitcoin is compromised by putting data on chain and that affects its use case as money, right? And if it's not.
It's bloating the chain, so making it less easy for someone in China that's never had a bank account to get on board right okay well that's a that's a fair that's a fair concern right uh but it's also like
you worry about the hurdle that you're at not the fucking seventh one on the track right
so and then another thing hill's talked about it's like we like are you a miner are any of us
miners no well then you know yeah i am dude uh i've got four
miners set up i got them for free from my jpeg it was it was there you go having a jpeg he sent
them to my father-in-law's house because i travel because i left my irl normie job as a carpenter
that i worked for 10 years because i actually made a shitload of money on jpegs which i then funneled into bitcoin
at 18k rode that shaggy dog right to 120 sold the top and now i'm funneling my money back into jpegs
on the mother chain at the bottom so yes 92 we are miners a lot of ombs enjoy mining the bitcoins
that's awesome i think a lot of people aren't and like it's it would be cool to
have to spread that out you know that that'd be I think ideal well ZK actually went around and I
think he did like community collaborations where he was letting go of some some miners to to to a
whole heap of communities and stuff but I'm sure it's going like there is that there is the part
where you you do receive this and you learn about it so like dude exactly that this is a perfect scenario i'm out traveling
and i work on the road so i didn't have the time or capacity to focus on setting up a minor and all
this stuff and i wasn't a minor prior right but because i got these jpegs and because i believed
in something which don't get me wrong holy shit turned out to be a wild ride over there but you know you got these jpeg you you get your perks
you got a miner gifted out i got i ended up getting four of them i've sent them over to my
father-in-law who was not at all into crypto right this this guy's just he's a mechanic by
trade he manages a car yacht manager's car outfit.
I send it over to him.
I send him one screen recording.
I said, yo, set this up, and if we hit, we can split it.
You go do all the research you need.
I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Within like six hours, he's got all four of them set up.
He's humming along.
He's sending me videos every week like, check this shit out.
Parrot site's going crazy.
This is a vibe.
Where's this going?
All of this stuff.
You know, he's excited.
And that would have never happened if it wasn't for the JP.
So there is positives everywhere you look, Mr. Gregory.
I did take it a little far telling you to get nude, but I mean, come on.
I love that story. And again, I'm not really a
hardliner as an Austrian school kind of guy where, you know, everything's subjective value, right?
So in that way, like you guys are saying, you know, these JPEGs and people agree and there's
a price and that's, you know, the market doing its thing i just feel like these conversations like this
conversation in particular which has been pretty much running uh and spurring off for like a few
days i feel like it's just like i can't believe it's still going on like it's really quite simple
like is there an issue no then okay then learn why there's no issue yeah exactly no funnily enough
too is like if you guys like i'm not trying to like make you the scapegoat here greg but you're here the only guy here standing up for
you guys is like little like disagreement right but like uh let's say you did want to actually
do something and not just complain on the internet um like one way to do that for example would be
like to get economic majority of the filling up the node situation like we have like we have more
economic majority more say over this quote quote fucking social
contract of bitcoin than everyone complaining at us right now because we are the ones proving
that people will pay with our our ideas for block space you guys like on that side haven't proven
shit because you guys like they just hold their bitcoin they got like 500 in bitcoin and they
sit like all these people like valerie will sit up here with no money don't transact in bitcoin
don't understand how the tech works will happily tell you how dumb they are but then they're like but i have an
opinion and i want you to hear it yeah i think i gotta stop this bro yeah you know i think i shared
like it's it's disrupting core as a vector and shinobi gave me a thumbs down before but as you as this notion of, okay, that did behaving like a centralized entity in some way,
particularly with the $2 trillion almost now in market cap of Bitcoin.
You're going to be these massive pools of capital that are rolling in.
And anyone can be corrupted with the amounts of money that are at in and you know like and anyone can be corrupted with the the amounts of uh money
that are uh at stake now so you know people i think aren't so much necessarily worried about
the jpeggers but larry fink's got a ton more money than the jpeggers and if he gets yeah like the
people that are mad should be looking at like paper bitcoin situation that's about to go down
where they disconnect all the bitcoin they're buying from the bitcoin they say they have like
that's going to happen in 20 years or less probably yeah and that's going to be the thing
that we should all be mad about but instead we're sitting here arguing about us like actually using
the blockchain like it's crazy the tone the tone deafness and the uh because of the you know the
feeling of technical supremacy that some of the core devs that, you know, that they're sort of high and mighty and like, you know, you're just so fucking stupid.
You can't understand what's going on here.
And sort of like, you know, getting they're getting like, you know, a bit of a comeuppance here.
you know a bit of a comeuppance here this this narrative that like all of a sudden like wall
street's gonna find out that we're doing jpegs and then hate bitcoin too is like super dumb guys
like yeah literally wall street just sent ethereum to like half a trillion dollars
only because they have jpegs without jpegs and defy why would anybody ever buy ethereum
obviously you can drive a use case for a blockchain with things other than just a monetary use case.
It actually strengthens the network.
ETH would literally be worthless without the other applications.
So Wall Street, first of all, not only is Wall Street not saying,
oh my God, I'm not going to buy the ETH ETF because I'm worried about the fact that there's monkey pictures on it,
but they're actually saying that's the exact reason why i'm gonna buy you know yeah i've never micro strategy
or whatever also they'll probably soon realize that we're we are like so die hard that we literally
like loads of people here are like lost sets too you didn't just increase your sets you also brought
the top and lost sets because you believe in what we're preaching and we're still here and they'll realize that the conviction and the people that are still
here outweighs the negative behavior because positive always flips negative dude and when
that time comes you're going to want you're going to want to be in the like in the bullcats you're
going to want to be on the side of the people who are rallying and that time will come because
otherwise the world would just shut down dude if everyone
wanted to strictly be negative like it sounds like just a dick swinging ego competition right
now with the devs like you just said the devs are devving and i'm making it very clear that
they're smarter than most like for those of us who came at that point from a certain way
and that way is money right so like from the standpoint of banking and, you know, there
was a fellow, I don't know how many here hadn't known of or heard of this fellow Bitcoin Tina
back in the 22 cycle. Anyone? We got any Bitcoin Tina? So he was a very, I think he had had
a career on walls. He was a smart guy and he was very abrasive.
And, you know, this notion that like essentially we were living in a Ponzi scheme and his name was Tina.
There is no alternative.
And so really he would get into back in the day it was Clubhouse, not so much Twitter spaces.
But he would just come on and then, you know, people so much Twitter spaces. But he would just come on.
And then people who were learning about Bitcoin, he would just come on and excoriate them and saying that they needed to go 100% in with their wealth.
And he would just talk about the frailty of the system and what have you.
And as things started going down to like 16,000 and, or yeah, like in 22,
like he got paper hands and sold everything.
So all you guys talking about being, you know, there to the death,
like you need to get cut like 80% and see how dieharded you are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll send you the wallet.
Negative 80% on our ordinals and runes over the past year or so.
You're not talking to the right group of people.
You should have made that compelling argument to the people here a year and a half ago.
Greg, this is round trip.
But literally everybody on this space is like super, super, super diehard.
I'm down half a Bitcoin in a single JPEG for the one that rewarded me that minor,
and I'm still here here and i still love the
jpeg so when we buy flights we only buy round trip dude you can't win them all you can't win
about this by the way like there's a whole this is really interesting to me as an actual digital cash
big blocker on the stage probably the only guy up here that'll actually sit here and admit that
um not bsv you guys but actually just put some extra weight on the on the blocks per block
basis maybe some speed will be nice whatever right because that's how you fix the world's
money problem is what you're complaining about is the wrong shit you know like you you should
be attacking the block sizes and all this technical trash whatever but that's that's
heresy you'll you'll go to hell over that you might as well switch change and switch communities
and delete your account and blah blah blah if you go that route right like but But the thing is, there are better ways to go about helping people to get
access to digital cash on a worldwide scale. And I promise you, the fucking JPEGs are not going to
be the thing to stop us. It's actually the cheapness and the friction of getting the people
on the chain, that's the issue. The legal issues, the things like that are going to stop us,
not the JPEG uploading the worthless data that people are paying for by the way allowing you to worklessly send your one sat per vbyte transactions or you back in the day by
the way when we actually cared about digital cash just so you know used to be able to send
transactions at zero sats per vbyte which means that you could just use it for free yeah it was
pretty cool but you know you're in an industry where it's not cash anymore brother we lost that
war you're late it's gold now get on board. We lost that war. You're late. It's gold now. Get on board.
Shut up.
Talking about stop begging for the past.
Go use Bitcoin cash if you want dollars on chain, right?
Like that's the narrative.
Or go use stable coins.
Go use a credit card.
Well, who the fuck retard said that?
Adam Back or somebody?
Go use a credit card, right?
Like that's the people you're the side of right now.
You're on that side of dumbasses, right?
And even they're disagreeing with each other.
Like you're basically the BSV-er of the maxi group group right now it's crazy how this is playing out i'm laughing internally
but i still get upset because no one's really addressed my like to me it's it's it's all about
power dynamics you're wrong you're right yeah but the power comes from the mining and the influence
not the node count in the in the crying on twitter about you know like you have to use the chain to to change the situation that's the only way yeah i saw it i just got uh like i did watch
uh the uh the story of uh of uh uh btc pay server and what's the fellow's name uh nicholas
dorier um just a couple days ago and and kind of you know, saw the power with Jihan Wu and the way that, you know, kind of in the block size war, like the power dynamics.
But it does seem like, again, this, you know, to the extent this is disrupting dynamics for core, that actually may be, you know uh end up causing greater survival properties in
bitcoin itself like if we're gonna be real the way to fix this is like we all need to stop arguing
and everyone needs to go launch their own branded full node like back in the day like you guys are
crying about node count everyone is up here forgetting the fact that bitcoin unlimited had
90 of the node count at one point and now they're running a shitcoin called Nexa, brother.
Like, it doesn't matter.
Like, node count is completely irrelevant.
Complaining on Twitter.
The only thing that matters is you run more hash rate through the network,
which means you need money because it's not profitable really to do it at scale anymore.
Or you advocate for technical changes to Bitcoin that actually makes sense for onboarding people,
aka lowering the barrier to entry, aka friction and cost,
not what are people allowed and not
allowed to do on bitcoin that is not the way to go about onboarding anybody right like does that
make sense i guess yeah i mean honestly yeah you know i think normies are going to come to this
via number go up in all its aspects including jpegs and that's the number one onboard i've
onboarded people to this industry for let me check my notes real quick 13 fucking years my guy and i'm telling you right now the only there's no
amount of yelling and words and whatever that does anything it's just to look at the profits
look at the price of bitcoin those are the only two ways you're going to onboard anybody right
look you know so like if you tell them like they're going to go buy dogecoin and xrp if you
if you if we keep doing this shit you know like we have to just let the price we have to help the
price go we have to make it come as valuable as possible because that's going to
turn their heads and make them think twice man it's been i've been proven wrong time and time
and time again it's like without a shadow of a doubt history is not on my side this is like the
logic people go through you know yeah technicals i yeah i think most of that stuff's going to zero
against bitcoin um but it's not
yeah that's true but that's not the point these people have made more bitcoin than you have in
your life off their yeah no i all of them yeah no i i hear you but i mean the thing you know being a
gentleman of a certain age it's just like the sheer yeah it's not for you bitcoin's for the
zoomers and their kids and their kids and their kids it's not that no no Bitcoin's not for you. Bitcoin's for the Zoomers and their kids and their kids and their kids. It's not for you.
Hell no.
Hell no.
That's not true.
Guys, there's no age limit on Bitcoin.
You guys are too old to matter, bro.
I'm sorry.
Anybody can use Bitcoin.
They can use it.
But it's not for iterations.
Super patiently waiting with your hand up.
What's up?
How are you doing?
Nothing much.
I love the conversation, especially the Casey Redditor stuff, just to really get it from a basis level.
conversation, especially the Casey more read and more stuff just to really get it from a basis
level. And I'm usually I'm a listener, but I think a lot of people confuse like getting people to
believe in Bitcoin and and onboarding people. Onboarding people is like I've gotten five free
subscriptions airdropped to me. I'm onboarding. You know what I mean? I have these sats, you know,
if one of them ever takes off in 10 years because like, 10 years because I don't even know how to sell it, that's a great Bitcoin story. When we preach about how great it is and all that stuff, all you're doing is getting people to believe in it. people, 7.8 billion of them have less than a thousand American dollars as a net worth.
So in other words, stores of values have been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
So the fact that it's a great store of value doesn't really onboard people. Well,
onboard people is if you have 10 Bitcoins and it gets to a million dollars and you have like $10 million and you
start sharing it with the world and making Bitcoin economies. That's what's so great about making
block space in the future have value because what you're doing is you're creating an economy.
You don't create economies with store of values. You create economies when you create futures
markets, where you create jobs, where you create income ways.
And that's what the pitchers do that the store of value doesn't do.
The store of value means that we can create an economy where people back and forth trade
things.
And there's no fiat in the world where tomorrow somebody will have more fiat and somebody
will have less.
Well, guess what?
Tomorrow, somebody will make money off the JPEGs and somebody will lose money off the JPEGs. If that's not happening, you simply just
do not have an economy. Now, when people talk about arbitrary data on money, they're not really
thinking of it clearly. What does all fiat physical currency have in common? There's a whole bunch of
arbitrary data on it. It's just the arbitrary data from the
central authority. See, Bitcoin separates money from the state. So that means is there's still
arbitrary data. It's just not provided by a central authority. The arbitrary data is from
the users. So there's never been money in the history of money that doesn't have arbitrary
data on it. It was just basically saying, these are our presidents and God's our trust. This was
where it was made. This is the serial number. This is legal tender. In fact, if you study old
dollar bills and you study them over the last 250 years, the arbitrary data changes all the time
based on the messaging that the state is trying to give to the population. So arbitrary data changes all the time based on the messaging that the state is trying to give to
the population. So arbitrary data has always been fluid on money since the beginning of time.
So for Bitcoin, having arbitrary data on it that's fluid is actually matching
fiat's that have created great economies, which eventually Bitcoin's trying to do.
that have created great economies,
which eventually Bitcoin's trying to do.
And you don't make Bitcoin a currency
just from the price going up.
You make people rich by the price going up.
Like Adid is the perfect example of that example, right?
Like Adid is money.
Just the modern money is fiat paper trash,
but money has always been a way to transact value.
That's all money is, right?
Like the definition of real money
is transacting value between each other.
It doesn't have to be paper trash dog shit. So deed is arbitrary data a deed is a fucking set of data
that says this is valuable at this price because this thing and these datas that's all it is that's
all all this stuff is it's deeds right like we are just using the jpegs because they make it fun
and community identity is key to actually getting branding out there and etc etc all that bullshit
want to talk about yeah property right exactly Giving somebody a description that's worth a thousand stats,
nobody buys a thousand stats through their Coinbase or whatever central exchange decks they use.
You know what I mean? They have to have something that has a little bit of emotional value so they
actually keep it. Or they could somehow build value to it because it has a way to
build value other than the price of bitcoin going up which you have pretty much no control over
you know your ip you have at least some control over that so ultimately um these people have these
like that lady that was just nuts you know what what I mean? But ultimately, I think it was already said that there's already child pornography on
Bitcoin.
I actually grokked it.
There's 274 pieces of it.
It's a link.
So you don't have to look at it if you don't want to.
But if you want to risk your life or being in prison to do something stupid like that,
that's on you.
There's never been a fiat that's not been associated with a crime somehow some way so they're just they're just bad narratives that it's fear-mongering
people trying to get people to to think a couple of things that don't really matter one uh i would
say uh is uh you know i i i agree that like you know that there should be you know competition
for that space.
And that's what you guys were saying.
Like bid for the space, right?
Go ahead and get your monetary transactions.
And if we outbid you for hash, then that's just the way things go.
But also on the sort of distasteful subject of CP,
it is an attack vector is probably the best way to think of it, right? To the extent that stuff lands on chain, then a nation state, U.S. or China or whatever, it becomes a vector of risk.
You're still on the internet. You can go access that right now.
All right, guys guys we're going
to move on from that conversation we did talk about it a lot already i think there was definitely
interesting points made but we're definitely going to move the conversation on from that
um mac you got your hand up bro what's up how you doing hey i'd just like to uh congratulate
gregory i think you'd make for a great founder um you've handled this conversation very well
we've been throwing everything at you we are just taking the piss dude we're we're all actually I think you'd make for a great founder. You've handled this conversation very well.
We've been throwing everything at you.
We are just taking the piss, dude.
We're all actually nice people up here,
but you did handle it well.
I must say, when you are ready,
you come along when you're ready.
We'll sort you out with an IP that's going to pop.
You're going to make a great founder, mate.
All you need to do is just handle FUD
and handle everything that's thrown at you
and you'll do wonderful things.
So welcome to JPEGs.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, this is...
Hey, is Casey actually online, right?
Is he in the group here?
So Casey came up earlier.
We did an hour and a half interview with him,
but he unfortunately left.
But yeah, Casey was here.
And I'll second what was just said there by Matt Gregory.
You've been probably the most reasonable person to come up from maybe the –
I don't know if you put yourself in the knots camp, but if you do,
you're the most reasonable person to come up and honestly just have
respectful conversation.
I don't think we have to yell at each other.
I don't think we have to call each other names.
And you've done a great job facilitating discourse and representing your side.
Well, that's where I don't really see it.
I feel like because Bitcoin is what it is, it's very, in my mind,
a very atomizing and individuating technology in that really to start to put your wealth
and your life savings into this thing,
you kind of, you know, it's got to make sense to you.
And so in my mind, it should be, you know,
this notion of falling into camps is sort of foreign to the idea of Bitcoin
because really we should be connecting with each other as individuals.
Yeah, speaking about connecting, Larry, I i have a question i don't know if
you guys touched on that is that true that banksy was inscribed today on chain and if that's true
what is the value of that store of value and if someone can touch and explain that to greg so
if it's not that more that it is oh go ahead yeah the yeah the answer is true it just wasn't by banksy
yeah yeah i'm not i don't mind if it's by banksy what i'm saying is
we're keep talking about the store of value in terms of monetary
nah what about the store of value in terms of value wait a second greg or mac what someone needs to talk about that so we could talk about avatars 3d rigs IP but how
about using the the block space in order to store value that's important to decentralize
and again strendilization is that yes every ordinal is just like a couple pennies basically
right like more or less it's some sense like right but on those cents we have imprinted more value than the sense the satoshis are working exactly exactly
that's the whole pet premise here for the value and if you are preaching decentralization within
money you can see what is the power of centralized authorities that bitcoin's supposed to be all
against when you can actually inscribe
something that otherwise will be scrubbed off from the wall.
Exactly.
That actually makes it better money because now it does something that the other money
can't do.
Exactly.
So this I want to hear Greg understanding that.
I want to see if Greg can understand the value in this.
Honestly, to me, that makes a lot of sense.
Even if you think about the Genesis block, right?
Like Chancellor on Brink, where you've got a historical thing being sort of put into the time chain.
And I kind of, you know, I thought was a a good idea or it made sense to me
um but then this you know crowding out notion uh but well that's that's because that's not because
of us bro that's because the dumb fucks in the block size wars kicked off all the people and
made it a big deal that we wanted to discuss not not change everything, discuss adding more block size.
Like over a period of time that was reasonable,
like maybe double it every five to 10 years,
but no, they turned it into this same shit
that's happening now.
Let's make it religious.
Let's make it retarded.
Let's kick people out of the community.
This is the same shit.
This is the problem.
It's not the technical arguments.
It's the people that are perpetuating this,
let's kick everybody out of the community shit.
Yeah, they're even telling us to don't do this shit on bitcoin do it on a shit coin it's like no we fucking want to do it here on bitcoin we're bitcoiners at the end of the day like i
don't i don't want to use a shit coin i want to use bitcoin and we're we're increasing the use
cases for bitcoin which is how we scale this thing And these are use cases that are unique to Bitcoin,
unique to the blockchain.
And we're not even using it.
But now we are.
They're asking you to handicap L1
for the sake of Lightning Network,
a layer two wrapped fucking fake Bitcoin fucking bullshit, bro.
It's not real Bitcoin.
You open a channel, it's wrapping Bitcoin
onto a second layer network,
which they can control because there's less nodes,
which means they can watch your transactions easier.
And by the way, they're going to make it too expensive to close your channel one day etc etc like what are we what are we advocating for use the l1
make the block size a little bigger when it makes sense and then onboard everybody to use Bitcoin
it's that simple and we're wasting 10 years discussing every thing else bro it's disgusting
also one sec because the question was there so does it matter if that Banksy piece is on chain?
No, not at all.
Because previously he's been using his Instagram to verify
that he was the person who did the artworks.
So when the time comes, though, where he puts a post out on Instagram
with a wallet address and says,
this is now how I'm going to verify all of my works,
and then from that point onwards if
that wallet inscribes those artworks 100 those are fucking skyrocketing with multiple bitcoin
you know what i mean so it's like the question you're asking does it matter no it doesn't matter
i mean i'm pretty sure i know who inscribed that it was it was gm toshi um it was a banksy piece yes it's stored there but it's
like i don't think you understood the question well you asked does it matter and was it valuable
i'm saying no not unless banksy did it i don't think you're talking in a monetary sense of value
let me let me say the question again what i was saying is scratch the monetary nonsense jpeg how much sat is and people are supply demand
bitcoin is supposed to be a decentralized way of living and not only just transaction and you can
store the value of decentralization itself by inscribing something that almost got scrubbed off. Banksy is not in the business of inscribing now.
Fortunately, people inscribe that piece,
that it's not a Banksy piece.
It's a piece of scrubbing off of a centralized authority,
what we're trying to do here as a decentralized way of being human.
So that's the real store of value that can be on Bitcoin.
And if you're going to look at it as just transferring sat here and there, we are not
transcending, evolving, or developing the network, which is going to be developed.
So looking at it as just a sterile value in dollars, fiat terms,
is just being very insane.
Yeah, I know that one is always a charged topic of, you know,
the store of value and medium of exchange.
You know, I think there's even even like how that how that plays out but i think for
a lot of you know countries that have suffered inflation you know runaway inflation the idea
that like you know you don't have to you know like venezuela or whatever you don't lose all your
money like you know just in a couple of days right So the idea of store of value there would be welcome,
less so in sort of more developed countries.
So is the suffering of dictatorship and censorship.
Yeah.
That's the cause of all the other stuff.
Greg, do you care about free speech?
Like, is free speech something you are an advocate for?
Well, you know, I think they're doing some interesting stuff with Nostra and BitChat, right?
So to me, free speech and free money go hand in hand.
Yeah, I mean, we're honestly, we're all pretty much aligned on that.
Most people here like free speech and we like basically being able to transact without a third party telling us what to do or who we can transact with.
transact without a third party telling us what to do or who we can transact with.
And Bitcoin, it turns out, is like a really incredibly powerful tool for free speech.
Like I would argue it's the single most immutable censorship resistant way to publish any message
ever created by humanity, right?
It's stored there permanently forever.
You can literally write your message, write what you believe, write whatever you want,
and it'll be there 100 years from now. And the entire United States government could,
you know, have all of its resources, you know, and military told to your only job is to go take that,
you know, sentence that that guy wrote, which is the powerful idea. And they couldn't take it off.
And that's like, that's pretty cool. We haven't really had stuff. Yeah, that's the example I said.
That's the image from today. You know, it's the guy who invented the network we're talking about on here said had, you know, really over on Nostra, they have this thing called Zaps.
And, you know, they just, we, this stuff has evolved.
stuff has evolved. And honestly, I think, you know, Dorsey, Jack Dorsey, you know,
inventor of Twitter has said if, you know, they, he had better understood Bitcoin or if it had been
around, you know, this whole surveillance capitalism model that we have now with, you know,
Facebook and the, you know, the platform we're on now are all advertising basedbased platforms, centrally controlled advertising platforms.
But we didn't really have decentralized money.
So basically, Dorsey is over there now hyping Noster,
and he's got a client thing called BitChat now,
which I guess there was something, I think, was it Nepal,
where they're overthrowing some communists.
Wait, Jack Dorsey, the same guy that censored us for years
and worked as a federal agent, that guy?
Oh, yeah, it was funny because he...
Yeah, that's correct.
Yeah, he did, he did...
He's a changed man.
Well, yeah, he...
I don't know, he did fund ocean mining and basically loves Luke Dash Jr. too, so...
Jack the big bastard.
Yeah, he did do that, that's for sure.
But probably the whole
experience of kicking a
sitting, I don't know if it was a sitting president,
off your platform, because I think he
did kick, I think Trump did get
kicked off Twitter at
one point. That probably wasn't a super fun
experience.
Yeah, I mean, Jack kicked him him off so you'd have to you'd have to ask jack about that but the bottom line is you know quote unquote
trump couldn't be kicked off bitcoin if trump wanted to post his tweets on bitcoin nobody could
prevent him from doing that right and that's the power he has a collection you also can't take down
yeah i was gonna say you can't take down his trump cards
which were inscribed on his behalf as the president of the united states as a bitcoin
ordinal collectible so you can't take those away either you know better better think about that
you know we've got to deeply think about that no and that's huge because there's so much space
on the blocks plate it doesn't like it has to all be good.
You know, when you go to a museum, people don't go for every piece in the museum.
They typically go for the best ones in the museum.
And when you can have money that has a historical timeline, that actually increases the chances
that it separates from central authority because you can never own the timeline.
That's why I have to buy the timeline. That's why I have to buy
the timeline. That's like the joke on it. Because if you study history, when you take over a nation,
what's the first thing you do? You commandeer their money and say, use our money. Because
what's the old saying? Winners write the story. Well, winners don't write true stories. They just
write a story. You know, you like when they tell you don't use Bitcoin, use credit cards and use
Tether and use stable coins like that?
Yeah, exactly.
That was the whole point.
Unfortunately, some of these stable bill laws are basically banking written laws.
So that way, stable coins are more controlled by the state.
But it's important because sometimes they just got martyrs or killed.
And now that you can put something on chain, now their story can't be erased. And that's very important because that could be a major detriment to someone doing something because now they have, oh, I can could erase history. So if you create a situation where you can erase history
and it doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it doesn't matter if it was history and it was
documented. There's at least somewhere where you can go back and look at that. And that narrative
can be rebirthed. If, you know, somebody's not in control anymore, you're not scared of that person
because they've lost their authority and power. And which one's more valuable? That like that's like you're describing the library of Alexandria, right?
More or less like this is exactly burnt down.
Than being able to buy shit from each other, guys.
Like, come on, start there.
And then the money can be attached to the actual library of Alexandria as like a service fee type to use the data structure.
I get that.
But like this whole like, let's all we only need to hold Bitcoin until it goes to the moon. And if you use it in the room,
like it's just not productive. It's really not. Yeah. The bigger risks that we have here is
people not using Bitcoin enough. That's kind of the issue that it's the security budget issue.
And this is exactly what Casey was talking about prior. And this is, again, the reason why I got into ordinals and runes was that, yeah, the security budget issue.
I think that's what needs to be solved.
That's the more pressing issue.
It's not censoring certain transactions that are happening on Bitcoin because Bitcoin needs as many fucking transactions as it can get right now.
And people actually using the network and this arbitrary data helps us facilitate more monetary transactions.
It's a small footprint that is actually being put on Bitcoin compared to the actual monetary
transactions that are happening on chain. So that's the bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
Yeah, that's a core economic principle because the number one thing that determines the duration
of money is the velocity of money. So when you create a reason for Bitcoin
to have velocity besides hold it forever, a number go up, that has a popular narrative
because a lot of people got very, very wealthy, but that doesn't make it durable. That just makes
it means the people that got in early and got out big made a lot of money to, for Bitcoin to
actually be durable. it needs more velocity
and this is a back to becoming a bit of bitcoin you've got a failing system and this fucking
pitcher that's warming up in the bullpen needs to be there when it needs to be there
wait what great analogy yeah but it like okay look the other side of this you're right kind of in a way but i think
you're missing the point that like if this system's not ready it's not gonna be there right like if we
can just fuck the whole system up and you guys destroy and undermine not you guys but these
these knots retards they undermine everything just to get this one little w over whatever dumb
arbitrary argument they had.
Like, who's really the bad guy here? Right.
Like at the end of the day, like we're sitting here telling you the technical reasons this is not feasible, et cetera, et cetera.
These guys are like morally speaking about everything and trying to pull at your heartstrings and sending schizo women up here to say crazy shit.
Like, you know, come on, bro. Who's really the bad guy here? Really?
You guys want to hear the timeline of my conversation with uh valerie yes i'm responding at 9 0 1 p.m eastern time she said
thanks for letting me up thanks for letting me speak 9 18 you are doing great as a host thanks
pray emoji orange heart emoji sunshine emoji 9 37 p.m are you fucking kidding me 9 42 p.m you are biggest loser ever losers in all caps
and then the space ends uh she leaves the space yeah i'm still getting dms leo because i'm not
responding so every about five minutes i get another i'm obviously not responding either and
this shows i don't follow her she was unhinged bro it shows up in my like other side of my
message request that i never look at but gentlemen gentlemen this brings up a
very unhealthy situation that we're seeing in people who are interested in
Bitcoin you see that they've attached some sort of lifestyle to it and and
some sort of ironically an arbitrary view of like what Bitcoin is and and what
other people should do with it and And it is incredibly stupid to witness.
I mean, I am enjoying it though.
And arguing with these people, making fun of them.
It's wild.
That is a fucking killer impression.
What do you mean, Greg?
Okay.
Well, I just didn't know I had the honor of being with the honorable RFK.
Yeah, he uploaded his consciousness to the Bitcoin chain by the way that's i did and no superpower could ever take it down if they
really wanted to later it's not his real voice guys no it's not i just grabbed the skin around
my adam's apple scrunched the voice a little bit and then i become a robber there was someone who
did it way better the other day i was cracking my ass so you got to talk to this guy get some tips bro you're doing good though keep it up buy an account
with like half a million followers rfk buy an account that rog just like i i mean honestly
like when i see you have 100 followers it doesn't work but oh i'll tell you guys you guys you guys
are like why i only have 100 i used to have thousands but i was doing an impression of
bitcoin mechanic i'm here to save Bitcoin.
And I had them as my profile picture
and they read,
like I've been doing RFK a long time
and nobody cared and they enjoyed it.
But then I did Mechanic and holy shit.
These same guys,
they've always loved censorship,
you know, RFK.
They deleted,
I got three accounts suspended
for not saving bitcoin hard enough
yeah when i said that we should see all the block size i got banned from every subreddit every single
person i never talked to blocked me on twitter etc etc these guys love communist type tactics
bro they love this shit yeah it's ironic isn't it bro well the problem with these moral arguments is
you're only emotional for a short period of time.
But code is law.
These technical arguments, they have a foundation to it because they'll still be true a year from now, two years from now, three years from now.
Your feelings, your feelings might not even be your own feelings a week from now. They don't know how it works.
They don't know how any of this works.
My favorite thing I heard today was someone who said some stupid shit about what about government and the government's gonna do this and the government's gonna do that like
brother if we worried about that there would be no bitcoin my guys shut up go away like bitcoin
is above the law it's not below the law it's above the law okay don't forget it hey uh ray
buddy your voice yes sir go go get yourself your best AI generational tech
or whatever you can find within like five minutes.
Jump over to the old chainers chain, that Solana chain.
Pump funds putting on a great new shiny meter at the moment.
Voice like yours with a little bit of AI.
You'll be printing on fees, 5, 10, 30, 6,000 exit
because they're that retarded.
Bring it home to the mother chain.
Go shopping.
Buy yourself all the ordinals you can think of at the lowest rate. an exit because they're that retarded bring it home to the mother chain go shopping buy yourself
all the ordinals you can think of at the lowest rate we have seen in a couple of years these
market rates are the pico bottom buddy so i'd put that voice absolutely to work i would get over to
the bozo chain and i would absolutely extract bring it home to the mother go on buddy leave
the space now buddy you know that's a very interesting concept
i'm good with you know the bitcoin mining and uh options trading i'm fairly comfortable where i am
but you know that does sound like a lot of extra steps and i have a lot more fun just going to
spaces and with people especially about bitcoin might i suggest they're
very unhealthy community called the ocm community right they like to say this one thing all the time
that that their provenance of of being the first parent child collection makes them the only real
collection and if you just say that's not true they lose their bro you can get them you can get
them every day so they're like you know are they're like the BSV of Ordinals?
They're like the BSV of Ordinals if you want to define what a collection is.
They love the most when I remind them
that they're originally
their OG on EAT.
They really love that.
And I said,
I would actually go as far as to say
there's probably like five or six collections
that are all engaging in this conversation of First 10K.
And, like, that is the single topic that generates more attention
and, like, animosity than anything we've done in the past,
you know, three days on this show.
Like, if we were to host the space again,
First 10K, invite everyone up, have a debate,
we could probably get 1,000 people in the Ordinal show again.
Like, obviously, we're not going to do that it's pointless to have that
conversation no no we're going to do it leo we're going to do it we're going to call it the final
debate we're going to get a thousand i already did the final debate these interviews i literally
posted a year and a half ago i said this is the final debate final we did it it went exactly as
you'd expect and nobody changed their mind yeah literally every player. Leo, you need to bring Greg as judge of the first 10K.
And then give him the first 10K of block space with no images.
And then he would supposed to explain emotion,
why these evoke emotions or not.
Bring him as a judge.
I think Shinobi would be a better judge.
Shinobi would be a great judge Shinobi would be a great judge
Matt can we have you represent Rak Toshi
in this debate for Node Monkeys
yeah I'll be representing all of Ordinals here
but I hold them all
Rak Toshi I'll have a sexy pink
sub 100k
I've got a ninja
I've got everything you can think of in these bags of absolute
picot bottom pits but yeah I'll represent them happily what do i need to say just anything
you like bro just keep the voice node mics were first guys let's not beat around the bush here
yeah i'm actually currently bringing back
i don't have an ALU?
I don't have an ALU because they went a little aggressive on the guerrilla marketing for my likings.
But I do see how they are super interesting and so sick.
Like totally support ALU.
Like I just buy provenance essentially.
That's my thing.
I like sub 100k's.
But I can see that ALU's, you know, that team's absolutely shredding um i love what they've done to be honest so there's no bad words about them either
but um yeah my thing's provenance i enjoy sub 100k yeah you said you have everything so i was like
oh you wanted you wanted no no no issue you will be the judge of the 10k but
what i was going to say is um shrimp toshi is is coming back and and he's going to inscribe the
remaining 9k um and he's going to be first so prepare for that base that's that needs to happen
more and more we need to go back to counterparty another great rakoshi impression we need to go finish a like a counterparty collection and make that the first
10k there's probably like a 9k somewhere in there or an 8k or 7k just add 3k to the collection
yeah definitely nah but honestly i'm gonna go now i've had a blast it's been fun this has all
been a joke to me um send out ordinals much higher enjoy yourself if the fun stops it all stops so you can be as dry
ball as you want but the moment the fun turns off is the moment we all go back to living our boring
lives and not having fun anymore and you won't see me on here and you won't see anyone caring
so just know that as the dry balls try to build momentum with their whatever they're trying to
push just you know it's about fun this whole life is about fun enjoy
yourself if you can't have fun find something new because it's not about that appreciate you coming
through Mac enjoy the rest of your day attacking Bitcoin and scamming people um uh uh let's uh
we'll probably wrap up in a second here um we've done a great job attacking Bitcoin on the show
today guys and and scam very healthy job at attacking the Bitcoin network, the censorship-resistant network.
That all adds up to me.
Yeah, excellent job today, guys.
What's your stand about censorship?
And should we censorship the images on Bitcoin as well?
Well, don't the images require another layer of software?
But me personally,
I currently have ASICs
that are plugged into
ocean mining.
And I have used the sats
that I mined to make
funny little runes.
And I find that to be quite funny.
Are you guys familiar with Penguin?
The miner who's currently one of the larger ones on Ocean Mining Pool?
So Penguin, I am not affiliated with Penguin.
But what Penguin does is very interesting.
Penguin runs Datum, the special software, in order to create their own templates in the pool, which was originally a great selling point of the whole thing.
But what they do is they allow any sort of data to be included.
So the Ocean people don't really talk.
We don't talk about Penguin because Penguin does whatever the fuck they want.
And it's just kind of funny that all this rhetoric from Valerie
or other unhinged, non-technical lifestyle sort of Bitcoin people.
They don't even know what the fuck's going on.
And it's kind of funny.
Yeah, the fact that we have currency collectors and coin collectors,
and the only reason why they collect it is because the arbitrary data on it's not on it anymore.
I just don't know why do they care what other people do with their money?
Isn't that part of the selling point of a good form of money?
I got into Bitcoin.
I didn't want to tell anybody else what to do with their fucking Bitcoin.
That wasn't like a light bulb.
Like, oh, I can tell other people what to do with this because I'm the special guy that figured it out.
It's just insane.
As whatever their argument is, they always have one common string.
It's, hey, I know that I look up to this guy.
I look up to Shinobi or I look up to such and such.
It's always the cult of personality type shit that goes with these kind of people, dude.
They don't want to be technical.
They just want to follow them.
It's crazy.
I have no problem with people having a tribe.
I have a problem with them saying you can't have your tribe because I have a tribe.
That's where you cross.
That's some culty shit, bro.
My tribe is better than your tribe.
And my God is better than your God.
It's very bizarre.
On one hand, you know, we want to increase Bitcoin adoption.
The mantra, I want more people to use it.
But don't use it like that.
It's just
It boggles my fucking mind. Are you guys familiar with project Spartacus?
Robert, are you here to Sheila? So you try to help us with the health
Situation yeah in the world. Yeah, I want to make everyone healthier this whole
Bitcoin core is bad now run my bosses software thing. It's just it's very unhealthy
And I got my account suspended over it and I am still working at HHS. So it's not all bad
But ultimately yes, I would like Because I made an idea I turned I did a parody account
I was like, oh, I'm mechanic and i started doing posts did you put the word parody at all or did you not yeah i
did you can go into the options why did they get mad then i think because it was it was absurd and
i like to make jokes and it was like you know my posts were like the only way to save bitcoin is
through central planning and like i was just doing a lot of that and i was good i
hosted a space one night and there's a lot of people in there portland's in there who they
he's like one of their new villains um i was just making i was just making jokes and i noticed after
the space that both luke and mechanic had blocked my account and then by the next morning the account
suspended so they totally have back channels where they're like we need to get rid of this account and it's so funny because
like i'm sure you guys have seen it like they love people talking about it and debating the
technicals of the situation and why they're correct and why you're a shit coiner because
you don't use bitcoin or see it the way they do they love that but if you start making fun of it
if you do a parody and you say i'm here to save bitcoin with my boss's software and bitcoin's going to die if you don't run my boss's software then they get really upset so it's kind of
ridiculous and literally sounds like yes he sounds like that he's got a british accent and he he looks very sad and lonely
oh but anyway the wild dude i really do have like a good chunk of miners on ocean like i've
i have mined with ocean since it was at like one exa hash i've watched it grow and the only reason
i do is because of their share log system for when you curtail power like like in if you turn off your machines
for a chunk of the day like the fact their share log system is in effect where like you still have
shares so if the pool hits a block you get paid even if your machines are off because you've built
up that share logs so like that part of it is a great selling point
like they should have just focused on that like the merits of how the pool works like it's really
good if you had like solar panels let's say and you can only mine the 10 hours a day or something
like that's fucking great but then it's just because like i don't like it anymore like i'm
like you guys have now the developers are evil and communists
because they're not you?
Get the fuck out of here.
It's all outrage marketing, and they love it
because it just confuses people who are new to Bitcoin.
I figured out Bitcoin.
I'm a super nerd, and I know that Bitcoin's the best.
It's money, and it's like, yo, why do you care what other people are doing
with it? If it's so
special and great, which personally
I think we all know it is,
how does people doing
silly transactions
that you think are bad because
someone else told you they're bad
actually means anything?
And it's just like, holy shit no i've never seen
someone so concerned with what other people are doing than these guys right never before in my
life over what we're doing on bitcoin well because it's the shit it's the shitcoin obsession like
i've been there i i like the reason your typical bitcoin maxi guy who like i sort of consider myself that like i agree with a lot of
the aspects of it but it's this obsession with shit coins and the narrative was oh now there's
shit coins on bitcoin and i have to fight that it's like that isn't true like Yeah, RFP. It's just this obsession.
It's the PTSD from the block side. Yeah.
Yeah, that too.
But think about it, dude.
A lot of these people have not been into Bitcoin since back then.
Well, what I think is funny is the users aren't complaining.
It's the people that have a competitive protocol advantage that are complaining.
That's a huge difference when you look at it from a psychology point of view
and i got in the same argument with like the board apes are like if board apes fails nfts fail
and i'm like no nfts made board apes and bennett board apes didn't make nfts
yeah it's like remember when you could buy a star like 20 years ago and it was just like you got a
certificate of authenticity and now you own the star,
but you don't really own the star.
Like the star is out there,
you know,
it's billions of miles away,
but I don't know.
To me,
it's just like,
it's very silly.
The whole,
like I like all anything to do with any of the meta protocols and anything
interesting happening on Bitcoin.
Regardless if there's someone making money on a token or something, that is still interesting to me.
I think a big part of the psyop was to distract from other potential improvements to Bitcoin
and just mire down people in this like stupid argument about what
people should be doing with it which is just so defeating it's like you can't tell others what to
do with it that's the fucking point like what the fuck yeah i mean look people have been bitcoin
since it started right like literally right the first shit coins like a counter party master coin
we're all we're all like meme coins and shit on bitcoin over 10 years ago like literally tether
started as real coin on bitcoin the first stable coin ever was on bitcoin the first on chain decks
uh was was the counter party decks you've got like a super viral popular dap for the first time ever was uh uh obviously satoshi dice uh you know back
literally like 12 years ago you've got you know the first gaming nfts uh the first like crypto art
rare pepes uh first play to earn games like all this shit started on bitcoin and like i think just
a lot of these guys are like they weren't here and they have no interest in studying Bitcoin's
history to understand that like Bitcoin was bootstrapped by a lot of that stuff. Like
literally Satoshi Dice was half of Bitcoin's transactions for over a year. And obviously,
I think Silk Road played a role in it as well. But Bitcoin bootstrapped itself in the early days
with a bunch of different use cases. And like they've kind of pretended that, oh, we don't need to do anything anymore except put all of our effort into the Lightning Network so that people can buy coffee.
And it's like, it's cool. The Lightning Network is a cool experiment. State Channels is neat, but it's also like a decade old technology and like the entire rest of crypto has moved past it.
You kind of know that something is old when there's like no new chains or no funding going into that technology. And like there's no more funding and devs entering into state channel
technologies, really. So it's like, wake up, realize that Bitcoin needs lots of applications
and use cases to get people to actually use BTC as money so that we can bootstrap this network to
be very secure and onboard people and get people using Bitcoin as money.
And then we can have a successful future for the Bitcoin network.
BTC is not going to be good money if it's on a network that nobody's using that is failing and unhealthy and not secure.
The Bitcoin network, first and foremost, needs to be secure to ensure that there's 21 million
Bitcoin forever, that people aren't double spending, that people aren't 51% attacking
the chain, that BTC as money can actually exist. The Bitcoin network needs to succeed for that to happen. That's what we're
all trying to do here. That's why literally Yon works for a company and has been grinding for
years trying to make a modern Bitcoin wallet so that all these like DGens on other chains can
come to Bitcoin and have an experience that's on par with the best Solana and Ethereum wallets,
right? Trevor's funded dozens of startups that have come here.
Like really smart people have come and built applications on top of Bitcoin,
which then solves all of these user experience problems that people were having when Ordinal started, right?
So everybody's like trying to work to actually make Bitcoin, you know, grow in terms of like a healthy ecosystem.
grow in terms of a healthy ecosystem. We want Bitcoin to have the brightest developers in the
world, the best developer mindshare. For a very long time, the developers were basically told,
you can't experiment. You can't innovate on Bitcoin. Even though all this stuff started on
Bitcoin, you have to go do it on some other L1 chain. That literally allowed Ethereum to develop
and create this whole
flippening narrative, which I would argue was bad for Bitcoin to have this network that's basically
saying, hey, we know we're not as good money as you, but if we bootstrap ourselves through a bunch
of viral apps and then our network becomes used more than yours and then ETH's utility for those
apps becomes really big, then our network all of a sudden is bigger than yours.
And if Ethereum as a network is used, you know, 100 by 100 times more people than are using like
Bitcoin, then all of a sudden Ethereum looks and maybe actually becomes more secure than Bitcoin.
So like, why would you kick off people like Vitalik, who wanted to build their, you know,
smart contracts on top of Bitcoin? Vitalik literally has tweets where he's talking about,
like, he wanted to build Ethereum on Bitcoin. He tried building it on Bitcoin,
but then the developers like basically went to war with him and told him like, we're going to
harass you forever, basically. So he's like, all right, I get it. I don't want to fight these guys
forever. I just want to innovate and do cool shit. So all these developers left. We should
have the entire world of crypto just on Bitcoin. Like we should have the center of the universe of crypto being Bitcoin.
That's how it should have gone.
Instead, a bunch of these like idiots basically told everyone you're not allowed to do anything on Bitcoin.
And we're basically going to harass you forever if you do anything interesting or experiment or innovate on this network.
And yeah, like we basically said, you know, for you successfully achieved that for a few years.
We're now going to tell you that you're not in control of this network anymore.
It's permissionless.
We're actually going to do whatever the hell we want.
And that's what we've been doing for two and a half years successfully.
And they're still salty about it.
But there's also nothing that they can do about it.
If you were the government, you can't expand.
Like when the when the America started Bitcoin doing exactly what you just said. When the America started.
That is how you do it.
You would define Bitcoin as money instead of like a network worth information.
You know, if you control the past, you control the future.
That's the real disruption as far as Bitcoin goes. As they say, it breaks Orwell's dictum, which is just that.
It breaks Orwell's dictum, which is just that.
And all the lifestyle Bitcoin people with their talking points about central banks and all this bullshit,
the government doesn't care about a good form of savings or money.
They care about not being able to have people go 50 years in the past and see what someone wrote there.
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
So it's kind of silly.
What we have against the government
is that the government outlives us.
And when you study the start of the United States,
the country,
what made the dollar such valuable currency
is it got to the point
where as a store A was paying in dollars
and store B was paying in pounds,
people rather work for the dollars
than work for the pounds.
That's the ultimate test of your currency is if you can incentivize people more for your money than somebody can incentivize somebody else for their money.
And Bitcoin has the greatest use case for that particular example.
Like, Ethereum isn't money.
It's programmable value staked by money.
But, Leo, I don't want to wake up from the dream i don't want to grow
i want to just relax that yeah i want it to be money i'm going to do pokemon dream well those
guys are important but their money only goes up if other people do the work. If everybody was a hodler and just said, we're just going to wait around, your Bitcoin won't go up.
Your Bitcoin goes up because other people do work.
But Sarah, I don't want images on my Bitcoin.
It's messing up.
It's spamming my Bitcoin.
my Bitcoin. It's sacred. I don't want you some ridiculous Banksy stuff that's emotional and
It's sacred.
emotionally and historically decentralized on my beautiful, sacred, decentralized money
of value, sir. The irony of all of this is like two and a half years ago before ordinals,
you could, you know, send a Bitcoin transaction and it costs you like 10 cents to send BTC to someone else on Bitcoin L1.
And that was perfectly fine.
Two and a half years later, you can still use Bitcoin in the exact same way.
You can still send BTC to someone for 10 cents.
And basically, it doesn't matter.
Like multiple use cases can exist on a blockchain.
It's totally fine.
Literally every other blockchain does this except for Bitcoin.
And like these guys just fundamentally are unwilling to accept the reality that people
can share a blockchain.
It's like you can exist in a country with people where not everyone is doing the exact
same thing.
It actually makes the country way healthier.
It's a diverse economy having many use cases.
You know, one of those
use cases doesn't do well. Let's say, for example, we say that we're going to bet our entire future
of this chain on something called the Lightning Network and go to El Salvador and, you know,
try to shove this down people's throats that don't actually want to use BTC as money. They'd
probably rather US dollar, to be honest. And let's say that experiment theoretically fails.
Well, maybe that wasn't very smart. Maybe you should have done a hundred other experiments
so that you basically had redundancies in your kind of story here.
Because that's obviously exactly what happened.
They did spend the last 10 years doing that.
It obviously basically did fail.
And they would have been much better off having, you know,
tons of developers building cool shit on Bitcoin
because they might have built something way better than the Lightning Network.
Unfortunately, that didn't happen. So we now have to play catch up, but I'm confident we're going to do it. I'm confident like the builders
in this ecosystem are going to go build things better than the lightning network. Obviously,
right. It's not hard to compete with a technology that's 10 years old, that basically has a group
of people who are obsessed with arguing with each other and don't really understand the actual users
who want to use, you know, something like BTC as money. Like they clearly don't understand the actual problems those people have. Like the
stuff Chris came up here and said, it was insane. Like he's clearly never talked to anyone that's
actually a normal person that wants to use Bitcoin as money. This whole thing of like, I have to set
up all my software on my umbrella and then I can close my channel and then to buy my coffee, I'm
going to do 10 minutes of this thing and all this stuff. Dude, you sound insane.
Nobody's going to ever do that to buy a coffee.
I mean, people download apps in the app store and they tap buttons.
Anything beyond that, it's never going to work.
So, yeah, I don't know.
These guys, like, yeah, they're getting a rude awakening.
But ironically, like, we're saving their ass.
They totally shit the bed.
Wait, wait.
Are you saying that in a block chain,
are you saying that there was a block party,
I need to share?
Like, if there's a block party,
there's some buildings and some people,
and we're going to share some?
That's what you're saying?
Yeah, it's a party.
Like, we got in a block,
we got Chris closing some lightning channels.
You know, we got Valerie, you know,
somebody bought a hat from her
in el salvador that's paying for that hat in the block you know we've got some dog trading hands
in a psbt swap we got uh you know trevor inscribing some you know the v2 of the ninjas jpegs in there
like we got all kinds of stuff and yeah that's obviously i's obviously. But I'm an introvert. I'm an introvert.
Well, it's always the same argument. They're trying to get everybody to believe their point of view. Instead of doing the opposite, going, what do you want? We'll build it. You know,
that's how you build adoption. You don't build adoption by telling everybody in the world what
they want. You build adoption by finding out what everybody wants, then building it.
Yeah. I mean, look, if you have a problem, what you basically want to do,
instead of just complaining and complaining and complaining, what they should do is go build
an actual good L2 and build tools and wallets and payment SaaS products for merchants and stuff that people actually want to
use so that people are actually using the Lightning Network so that then people actually
use Bitcoin. And then that's awesome. Congratulations. You got what you wanted.
This is how we do it. Like, do you remember all the complaints people had about runes
in, you know, September of 2024? Oh, it's buying. It feels like buying NFTs.
September of 2024. Oh, it's buying, it feels like buying NFTs. Why can't I do it like it does on
Uniswap or Jupiter on Solana? You know, why is it that somebody bought my runes in the mempool?
Like, why did I get sniped? All this crap, it's like, oh, I have to check 10 different websites
before I buy to make sure I get the lowest price. Literally, like experts and dot swap and radify
and sats terminal and a bunch of startups and like builders went and just solved all those
problems, right? It's like, you go build your way out of these things. Stop talking about it and go
build it, right? And yeah, basically, these guys are honestly just a bunch of podcasters that really have no real
direction or ability to change anything. So they just complain and complain and complain.
And that's all I'm seeing. So yeah, we'll engage in the argument here. Obviously, like occasionally
we'll have an ordinal show about this topic when they seem to be like super having ants in their
pants about this spam stuff. We'll invite some of them on, have a conversation.
But we're going to come back on Monday and have a normal ordinal show and talk with people doing cool shit on Bitcoin.
And we're going to focus on what we normally focus on.
And they're just going to go back to talking about shit with Valerie for the next two years
about stupid shit.
Like, of course we win.
Obviously we win.
Yeah, it's fascinating um
geoff what's up welcome up to the ordinal show how you doing
hey i've never been into one of these shows before and i'm finding this topic that uh
quite interesting about censorship um listening to you guys speak about uh inscriptions and
ordinals i don't know much about them
um but i've been in bitcoin for about five years and uh i'm just curious i heard you talking about
a better money um how you know inscriptions on money has always been around but i'm just curious
to wonder why you say that the inscriptions and the runes and all these
things pictures on satoshis can actually make it a better money what does it give it um what use
case does it give it more than what the use case of the uh permissionless money what's the use case
there other than what it already is yeah you would you would agree. Is that a fair question?
Yeah, that's a very fair question.
You would agree that BTC is valuable because it is secured by the proof of work Bitcoin network
and that the security and decentralization of that network is critical in ensuring that BTC is a good monetary and soar value use case.
You would agree that the Bitcoin network is instrumental in making sure BTC is successful, correct?
I would agree.
It needs to be decentralized enough and secure enough for it to be money.
That's what I would say, yes.
Right.
And are you familiar with the kind of schedule of every happening, which is about every four years?
with the kind of schedule of every happening, which is about every four years, the block
subsidy, so this is the Coinbase reward, gets chopped in half.
So the amount of Bitcoin that a miner is rewarded for mining a Bitcoin block gets cut in half.
Are you familiar with that?
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's going to just continue happening.
And eventually it's going to essentially go to zero Bitcoin.
So the only way
Bitcoin is secured is by fees. And there's a group of people who are basically saying, hey,
all of this inscriptions and stuff on Bitcoin is bad. Meme coins and inscriptions on Bitcoin are
bad. We're arguing that actually it's the best thing to ever happen to Bitcoin because we've
actually answered the single greatest existential crisis
and question that Bitcoin faces in the future, which is how do we make sure the Bitcoin network
is secure when there's nobody actually using it and paying fees? It would really suck if people
are doing what they're doing now, which is like saying, hey, it's bad to use Bitcoin and you're
pricing out people using the Lightning Network and all this stuff.
Well, how secure do you think Bitcoin is if you get $100 every time you might have a Bitcoin block?
You're going to be able to 51% back that network for about $1,000, right?
So by the time the block subsidy is expired, which is around, what, $21, $30 or $40,
we don't know what's going to happen as far as the energy
price what's going to happen as far as the use case for it we don't know what's going to happen
at that point energy may be so abundantly free that the cost to secure the network could be
minimal and the fact that uh in that situation the fees really become irrelevant at that point would you
think uh so like i would say like we don't even have to think out over 100 years like in 15 years
um it'll be what like 2044 is when it gets really interesting less valuable coinbase reward just in
like 14 and a half years from now so i would argue that's like a big problem that there's 16 times
less btc uh being used to secure the bitcoin network um than every buck that that's like
that's like a problem that's coming down the pipeline that's just you know the entire existence
of bitcoin is only like 15 years just double that it's not that long from now that's a huge problem
that we're facing in 14 or 15 years, right?
Yeah, I don't know about that. I just don't see how inscriptions and these things on top of a Satoshi is going to help with the security of the network.
Don't worry about on top of Satoshi any of that.
None of that matters.
It literally actually doesn't matter if it's JPEGs or meme coins.
It doesn't matter.
What you should care about is that people are creating demand for
Bitcoin block space. Because if there's no demand for a Bitcoin block, nobody wants to pay a lot of
money and value to put data, any sort of data in a Bitcoin block, then Bitcoin is eternally screwed.
Like it will become very easy to attack Bitcoin. That's just a fact. Nobody debates that. So it
doesn't really matter specifically inscription meme coin um you should want
people to use the bitcoin blockchain to pay fees to secure the network so that btc which you love
is valuable long term like does that line of reasoning kind of resonate with you
it's the miners that are securing the network right and the miners are incentivized to secure
the network but the miners to secure the network.
But the miners only secure the network because they're getting a Coinbase reward plus fees.
They're not a charity.
They only do it to make the Coinbase reward in the fee.
They're working for those sats.
If they don't get very many sats, there's not going to be much hash rate on many miners mining Bitcoin and securing network.
you know mining bitcoin and securing network proof of work will literally fail
Proof of work will literally fail.
no that's not right because the people that are uh using it as money will want to secure it
because it is the money so what what are you proposing happen they're gonna like if they
secure it they're gonna lose money and they're gonna go out of business so it won't be possible
for them to secure it because they will have spent all their money
and they will not have any money left.
Nobody's a charity.
Nobody's going to mine Bitcoin for free.
It costs an insane amount of money
to run a Bitcoin mining operation.
Because the cost of energy is going to go down.
Everything in this world is going to go down
to produce...
The cost of energy is completely irrelevant.
It's like the entire reason for energy,
it's just an arbitrary way to ensure that people are burning money.
Like, you understand?
It's not irrelevant.
I just said to you, the cost of energy is going to go down,
and you said it's irrelevant.
Then they will spend more money on it.
So let's say hypothetical, Trevorvor leo let me just add this is a bitcoin is an adversarial technology what that means is that nobody can outspend each other right that's the
whole point is that it's not about the cost it's about people outspending each other because you
don't want the government to outspend you because you
want to have lots of people around the world mining and you want people to it to be unprofitable
to try to attack the network
yeah and as the cost of energy goes down the cost to attack the network is going to go down, which
means that there's going to be a point in time whereby the miner is going to have to
make a choice whether they want to continue mining or they want to stop mining.
And I don't think that having a few pictures on top of the Satoshis is going to be the
deciding factor.
Let's go with your argument.
What are you trying to say here? It's just fundamentally an argument. How are you trying to say?
It's just fundamentally inaccurate.
How is that relating to instruction?
The way that mining works,
if mining tomorrow, for example,
let's say somehow the price of energy on Earth
went down 1,000x tomorrow,
it would literally have zero impact
on the security of the Bitcoin network.
All that would happen is
people would spend a lot more money,
buy a lot more hardware, mine a lot more, you know, burn a lot more energy, but they're paying the same amount.
Think about it like this.
All that matters is the amount of hardware I buy plus the maintenance cost plus the energy.
That's some certain amount of money.
People will spend whatever amount of money that they're going to get in the block reward and the fees on their kind of mining
equipment and energy costs so if energy goes down they just spend a thousand times more energy to
mine bitcoin and everybody would be able to do that so i'm literally telling you in the equation
it is totally irrelevant the price of energy it does not matter at all but it does matter because
i'll tell you why because i'm running solar panels on my house and i'm considering purchasing a mining
running solar panels on my house and i'm considering purchasing a mining um device that will be just
used to add hash power to the network and i don't care whether it's going to earn me any return
that's why because the cost of energy is so low and that is where we are headed but then but then
jeff what we're saying is people are just going to put more energy people are going to spend the
same amount on the energy and what makes bitcoin again, is not the amount of energy being used that makes Bitcoin secure.
What makes Bitcoin secure is the amount of money it would cost a government, a world power,
to buy all the hardware and then spend it on electricity to outspend everybody else
that's already spending money. That's what makes Bitcoin secure is how
much it costs to attack it's nothing to do with the amount of energy it is like because it's it's
it's not how is it how do I how do I wear it like I'm just trying to think how I can wear it I don't
see even if this is correct how is it relating to your question about inscription? We're saying that there is a bunch of people claiming that inscriptions are the problem.
So how are you addressing, would your argument, anything related to inscription?
I just wanted to know, what part of the inscriptions makes the use case any different?
That's one more question.
The use case is the same as you putting your solar power.
We spent over half a billion dollars, okay, on fees to bid for block space that goes directly to miners that then makes the Bitcoin network more secure and makes your precious BTC use case of monetary and soar value much better.
and soar value much better.
We literally, that's a fact.
Nobody debates that, right?
Now, there's people that are kind of misinformed
and don't understand basically some of these weird aspects
and things like Valerie was talking about
and Chris are talking about
where they go off on these fringes.
But it's just a fact
that we have absolutely made Bitcoin more secure.
Super quickly, I'm going to mute everyone.
Cynthia, I'm assuming you're about to go over to the mystery zone.
We'll probably shut down this space and head over there as well.
So you can probably get that started up and then pin it above so that people can hop over
there.
I'll hop over there for a few minutes afterwards, but we will be moving to our sister brother
show, the mystery zone in a minute here, guys.
So Cynthia, we'll give you a word before you hop off.
Thank you, Leo. And thank you, guys.
Yeah, I did the thing where it muted you.
Probably like there's been a lot of glitches on Twitter. So yes, thank you guys.
Thank you, Leo. Thank you guys for an amazing space today with Casey and then a fervent space following that. And now back to kind of a baseline. But it's been a lovely night as always. And yeah, I pinned up the Mysteries on at the top there. It's the second from the left after the war log. So yeah, we'll see you all there. Everyone's invited, of course. And we talk about ordinals and Bitcoin and everything else.
So thank you so much and have a great night, everyone.
Much love.
Awesome.
I just penned up mystery.
Just started the space 30 seconds ago.
I penned it up.
So it's the freshest post as well.
We'll hang out here for another two or three minutes, guys. And then people can start filtering over and we will wrap up the ordinal show.
This has been a great, great episode today.
I think like, you know, different levels of quality of discourse, but in general started out like super strong. That conversation with
Casey was awesome. Like I had a lot of fun with that, Trevor. I hope you did. And Casey said he
really enjoyed it. So pretty productive. Obviously after that, things were interesting. I think,
yeah, like we as co-hosts always can learn things
from moderating perspective but you know we facilitated some discourse we're probably not
going to do this on many more shows for a little while we'll just go back to more normal ordinal
show but um yeah we had we had interesting discourse i don't know trevor were there any
main like takeaways from tonight any eye-opening things um yeah curious your kind of thoughts
looking retroactively on the last five and a half hours oh man i'm i'm like ready to sleep dude after this
space this is what took a lot out of me um took a lot of you know but i think it was good i think
it was good because i think there were a lot of people that came through tonight who legitimately
had not heard both sides at the same time and i think think that it's unfortunate, but like, um, we don't get a lot of the laser eye maxis,
the filter crew to come through our show.
And so I think it's been a success in that regard because ultimately, uh,
like just let the,
let the debate happen in a form that's not 140 characters and you just like
people going back and forth forever just like
let everybody see it you know front and center and then make their own decision i think that
tonight a lot of people got to hear different perspectives and i think that
people will make their own mind up as to what they believe is true or not
yep yeah man i totally echo everything you just said there.
I think we're probably going to wrap here, guys.
Trevor, like I mentioned,
anybody who wants to go over to the Mystery Zone,
it's pinned above.
I'm going to go hang out there for a few minutes.
Trevor, do you want to send us out here?
It's been a good week.
Yeah.
I think just ruggedly, not by my setup,
but everybody have a great rest of your week.
Have a great weekend.
And Leo just rugged that shit.
Awesome.
Leo, thank you for including me in the debate.
Thank you, RFK.
We appreciate you joining us on The Ordinal Show.
Have a great rest of your week, guys.
We'll see you all on Monday.
Bye.
