But you're laying across the screen
And with no space in between
It's by the server version
And it's out of my control
Can't see if cool is coming
You've always let me guess
If you're a gift or a necklace
But I won't you're the next
For as long as you're with me
I know that we'll have fun
Why is nobody replying? No one's replying to me. How does this work?
Listen everyone in Ordinals is a big brad fan today. I don't know if you're aware of that. I think I think
People have been a big brad fan for a long time. I always see like screenshots of my my dumb tweets
Like all the time and ordinals. Yeah, it's a
It's a type of it's a type of fandom
Yeah, I think it's like the Peter Schiff
Peter sheath shift of ordinals. Yeah
Yeah, that's it's a you know that Peter Schiff literally that did have a
Ordinals collection. Yeah, I did
Remember whatever happened with that English. Do you maybe do you know if like did that sell out like is this trading?
What's going on with that one?
I'm not even aware of that collection to be honest. When did that when did that inscribe? It was in the earlier days
Not dude, he literally but I've a bunch of pictures of gold bars
That was the collection. I do remember that. Yeah when I inscribed it for it
I mean when he inscribed it it was a funny idea play on on
That was yeah, that was indeed the point
Woke up today. True story. I woke up to a lot of the
I didn't even tweet that like someone took my phone and tweeted that I woke up at like four in the afternoon
And I've got all kinds of DMS coming like
Why did you say this and?
It's a little unexpected for me because
You've you've had your fair share of criticism towards all adults by the way
I would I would assume I've read through the post
So I assume you still hold probably some of that criticism. But yes, you've you've been you've been loud about
Not being a massive orals fan
And specifically not being a massive fan of myself and you know
Personas on Twitter and I assume that didn't change a lot but
Honestly, it's a couple of things. I mean listen, this is a long winding road of
conversations and thinking and
Changing my view on the world in multiple ways that
We can have the big long windy conversation or we can just kind of
Take it piece by piece or I don't know how to how to go about it. But one of the things that
muting the word oody on Twitter
Actually gave me clarity that's highly recommended
No, like about eight months ago, you know, we were going back and forth blocking each other or whatever
I don't know what was going on there me and you and Eric for some reason Eric would block me because I'd trigger him
With something he would say and then I'd say something stupid and he blocked me and then for a good like eight months
we just all left each other block and
I muted the word oody and
Because I was no longer tainted by
the gaslighting and like the insults and all making fun of all my friends and stuff so I was like I just didn't think about
this from the perspective of
What a woody was irrelevant in the conversation to me. So so that helped me get some clarity
You know I've been recommending people to do that for quite a long time both like to mute the word oody to block my account
I've I've also I suspect that a lot of people in the kind of laser. I can't
Basically missed out on the orinals because of me
Because they were like, oh these the orinals guys so we can't and who these immediate he's always right
We're gonna fade him. I don't agree with that and that's
That's I've heard that before and I think that's just a symptom of not having the word oody needed
Yeah, that's fair that's fair so okay
So you you muted you when you remove oody from the conversation around ordinals. It becomes a lot more clear. Honestly
I think that's fair. So you did that you got you got the clarity. What did you discover?
few things so I had this view of of the way that
The world is gonna shake out in terms of the macro and I know it's probably not a
Ordinals people talk about the macro bro
It's part of it, I mean I
was kind of I was accurate in calling the top of the bubble and
That most of the shit that was going on and like all the crazy shit the Luna's the FTX like all the stuff
Calling the top of it. I even
was was like saying because of
Three arrows and the Genesis shit like because of they all had massive
Treasuries of Bitcoin that they were rehypothecating and going and doing like let like wrote the rotational play into like avalanche
And all these other things at some point they were gonna blow up and cause a massive
Contagion in Bitcoin and crypto in Bitcoin is gonna spill on the Bitcoin. So I was like getting ready for
60k to be the all-time top for that cycle and then when that happened
I figured like, you know, there's gonna be a lot of dominoes to fall and then the policy risk of being involved in all
This shit was just so high in my opinion. It was like clear that the SEC and the DOJ
Was gonna be clamping down on this stuff because of the SEC sticking ills every other day
Well, that's part of the that's part of my kind of
Coping you predicted all of it. I guess no, I didn't I was wrong. I think is what ended up happening
I mean, I was right and and about some of it like
We got wrecked and that was that was the the the top and then
was pretty confident that it on
15 to 20k was the bottom and I started kind of piling back in and telling people just ignore all the tether fud and all
That was just nonsense that we're going to 10k. I actually wrote a post on my Facebook and I told all my friends and family
Rewind for a minute. Did you say you wrote a post in you on your Facebook? Was that in this decade?
Cuz that's where my friends and family are on Facebook. Nobody's on Twitter, you know in real life
So I was like I want my friends and family to get like, you know, the lifeboat
I want them to get on a lifeboat. So I was like I will literally
Guarantee you that we're not going to be under 20k in a year by
0.1337 Bitcoin. Okay, let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's
We talked about Facebook enough, let's get to today in your
Bitcoin season 2 and the clarity that you achieved by muting me and Eric and yeah, so
Like I said, there's multiple sort of paths here. So we'll finish up on the macro because it's relevant
Okay, I thought that we were you really want to talk about I know we got a got a friend anyone in the audience
Look, it's gonna take like three minutes top
Don't don't don't don't run away. Okay, I'll try to tell some funny jokes
We got we just gotta we gotta frame this as something that I realized like I thought that
Exploded and we went into some sort of like restrictive
Policy where it was like high interest rates and the base money was shrinking instead of growing at trillions of dollars
It was gonna crush all demand for people to be speculative degens and that people would be focused on surviving not speculating
And that did happen for quite a long time
I mean most of the shit got wrecked combine that with the policy risk of the regulators like
Coming in and and stamping all this stuff out and you know drying up the liquidity from all the US
Market makers and funds that were potentially doing something illegal
I thought that that was gonna cause a final flush out and it was gonna get
Regulated and it was gonna get kind of tamed and then it was going to continue
But not at the same level of nonsense that we saw in the previous cycles now
What happened? We still don't have a really great outlook on the economy. The economy is not doing amazing
They're not printing tons of money, but yet meme stocks are back at all-time highs
Ordinal speculation is going crazy
Bitcoin's pumping. Everybody's having a great time. So like
Something else is happening here. It's not all about the Fed and
I kind of realized as I'm an investor in
Multiple companies that have gotten like this, you know, a diva is one of the companies
I'm investor in they're they're an RGB wallet and they've got this huge spike in Chinese users
Like 500,000 Chinese users started using their wallet in testnet and it's not even live and I'm like
What is happening? Like there's there's literally like millions of people
Digital toilet paper which are like, you know, BRC 20s are basically it's like digital toilet paper
Yeah, but but but digital toilet paper that it's immortalized on the bit though. I'm not even talking about BRC 20s
I'm talking about like if you I talked to to grok about this so I have it on good authority
I said and I get everybody
Will say how can you afford you need to use a
Door blue for that or whatever they call it now premium. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of worth it. You get you get to
You get to talk to grok. So I talked to grok, but the reason you can afford that is is because
Because you've been trading some JPEGs. I assume right? No, it's just because they pay me
I don't know if you're subscribed to their money share thing
But they they paid for my Twitter blue basically. Hey Brad, what's up? Playboy. It's Jimmy
Yo, hey question. Do you know do you like count the amounts of times that you're wrong on your predictions?
Because you've been you know, I've been right who wants to keep track of
I've been rekt by you. I've been rekt by Joe Carla. Sorry
I've been rekt by Jason Williams when Bitcoin went down a fucking 19k. There's no more open interest
I sold Bitcoin at 17k. I had to rebuy it fuck the 22
I told my fucking grandma to buy Bitcoin when you sent the tweet out said it OTC
Just don't have any Bitcoin. They called me. They're running out of this question. Grandma buy some fucking Bitcoin right now
I can't even answer my grandma's phone calls my nigga
Okay, tell your grandma to send me a DM. I'll give you some repep aerations and then we'll square it all up
All right. All right. All right
That's enough we're gonna cut it out and we're gonna move on to season two. Okay, so let me finish I talked to grok
Listen, I I was in the camp of and I am somewhat still in the camp of
Early on in ordinals. There was a lot of
Stacks and and BSV and people like that that were building a lot of stuff
And you know, there was people got going on to there by the way, they're full disclosure
Stacks BSV IMF and we are for all investors in temple. Was it? Yes
So there was like a lot like I'd say what maybe 25% of the activity in ordinals was probably like people from other
UTXO based blockchains that had bigger blocks because they were used to like and they had to do something their coins were not going up
And values they had to build something
So they were like building shit on chain and they knew they they got better at building shit with like UT XOs
so it made sense for them to go like port whatever crap that they had built on BSV and like make an app on Bitcoin now
That's whether you think that's spam or not
It's not irrelevant part of the conversation at the beginning like I held the view that there was a lot of like
Well, this is kind of a you know spam attack by BSV people and Bitcoin cash people
All the all the trading activity happening on chain because it's like, you know, obviously that's gonna drive fees up then I was like
Ignored it for a while because the market kind of crashed and there was not much activity happening the mempool cleared
But then the BRC 20s happened are you talking about the the the two and a half weeks of ordinals downtime
I don't know the two and a half weeks where ordinals were not I wasn't paying super close attention for about six months because like
I was able to make transactions, you know a couple bucks a transaction. So I didn't really care that much
But then what it was was like, okay, I'm an investor in DBA
I'm you know, I support digital art as a use case. I think digital game items make sense
I think digital collectibles make sense. I'm an investor in scarcity
so I really like to support physical artists and
Digital artists and like I think it's a valid use case. I'm an investor in
Infinite fleet Samson mouths company that's builds a game on liquid network and like has game assets as NFTs on liquid network
Is that is that the company that created an NFT marketplace issued? Yes, he's did an ICO
We talk about it was a security token offering so it was it was it was a security client ICO
Yeah, but but so like just so you know where my head is that I'm not quite like
Against entrepreneurship, you know, we'll say it like that. So I'm not I'm you're only mildly against them only I'm only I'm only against
I guess you'll say we'll say it and I'm also philosophically against
Not using I mean, I'm also against illegal things by the way, just to clarify. I'm strongly against well things just you know, like, okay
interesting uses of Bitcoin in the early days that brought a lot of people to look at Bitcoin and a lot of people bought Bitcoin to
Buy drugs and I grew up Mormon
So like I thought drinking coffee was was gonna send me to hell
So like I didn't use Satoshi dice cuz that's gambling and I didn't use silk road cuz that's evil
but I you know as I as I got out of the
you know that moralizing side of things and I realized like
That was a valuable thing to have people learn about Bitcoin in whatever way that brought them to be Bitcoiners
in a sense what BRC 20 is is is just
D gen speculation and gambling on you know, the same energy wavelength that Satoshi dice was and
and even silk road was like silk road is for illicit activities and
BRC 20s and shit is like basically a lot of Chinese people are banned from gambling and so they're trying to finding a way to gamble
but the point that I was making was like a
Lot of Bitcoiners like myself had this idea that ordinals was just like a BSB thing or ordinals was just like stacks or like
Crypto grifters that were just trying to affinity scam with Bitcoin like oh now it's a Bitcoin NFT
And this is gonna give you utility in the community and the discord channel good vibes, bro. Like all that shit
Where are we getting to the part where you think that I'm okay? We're getting there. We're getting there
You got to listen cuz it's a long winding road. I told you it's a long winding road
You know, you gotta get a strap in
Cuz I spoke to grokooty and I said, I'm fully strapped by like let's get rock and many of the people listening
Crypto people and everybody probably don't realize this go right now on the Twitter search
And search the hashtag XRC 20 and just sort by recent like go do it right now
It is mindly up crossed when you searched it
well, it's just mind-boggling in a way that the
demand for speculating on JSON tokens
Okay, there's a limited supply who'd have thought yeah
Well, I did like I said, I thought that the conditions the economic conditions that we're in and heading into we're gonna
temper the the need or the the privilege for people to speculate on shit like to speculate on garbage like worthless crap
There's you know when the Federal Reserve tightens money supply
Here just to temper to stop inflation and write raises interest rates
Why are we talking about this because this is all is that is it's all related?
I thought so why I think I thought that was like David Bailey's stuff
The partnership with Fed now, do you remember that? Yeah, the Federal Reserve is buying ordinals. That's what Brad's getting to Brad
Wait, you know what? We're gonna brat
We're gonna pause we're gonna pause here because this seems like it's it's it's very long-winded way more than I expected
So just just sort of people can catch their breath. I'm gonna move
Winners has been raising her hand very patiently for so long. So I'm gonna let her
Tell us whatever it is that she wants to tell us
hopefully, maybe she'll help direct Brad to
The point where he's starting to explain why he's thinking that I'm right. Go ahead winners
Now, I don't know if I could do that darling and and Brad my love I
absolutely love the beard by the way and
Now that I've glazed you properly
I I want to say that I'm a huge ordinal and joyer
But at the same time I am NOT a fan of layer twos and what Udi has made me learn
Rundell had shared an interesting
Reactive security use case
And like covenant use case and that is a for op cat and like snore
I think I'm saying that right snore tricks. That's that's correct
And I'm I'm just curious your thoughts on on just reactive security and and how
And mind you everything that I've learned. I'm not a technical person like don't ask me nothing about it
I'm just very interested in it, but Udi made me learn it
through through the quest through an ordinal
I'm just curious if if you if you resonate with that or
or just your general thoughts on that in and
As the broader case for for Bitcoin and Bitcoin users are you a real person or did Udi?
Plant you here to ask that question
No, she's our secret weapon
Thousands I'm not exaggerating thousands of people who are looking into op cat in the last like four days
Wish it was a joke because it's kind of insane, but there's literally thousands of real people doing it as we speak
That's an amazing accent litters by the way, I like how you speak
If you don't mind me asking where it's much better than Brad's accent by the way way better
We worry witters if you don't if you don't mind me asking witters, where were you on January 6 2020?
By the way absolutely unrelated to that question, but have you guys seen that?
President Trump is issuing order rolls
President Trump's interns probably right
I just want to point out that that means that like people can't say ordinals never did anything for Bitcoin because
We just ensured that Bitcoin can't be made illegal in a Trump administration. So like we're safe
Right. That's how that works. Yeah, I think that's like
He literally he literally had created Bitcoin holders himself. So
Yeah, I think we're safe if he's the most like the most pro Bitcoin candidate right now
Well, I'm like, I don't have any data, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there's probably a lot of overlap between
Bitcoiners that are super mad about ordinals and Bitcoiners who vote for Trump and
It's it's just funny that Trump just issued a bunch of ordinals
Yeah, oody I have a see if what up rindo I didn't see you there what a baby
But uh, yeah, oody. I have a serious question. I I'm sure you do
Okay this time for over so Tyler he's a part of your team, right? I presume I had a question for Tyler fortunately for us
Yes. Yes. Awesome. So I had a question for him
And I think he gave me a very political Jimmy. What the hell this is Brad Mills talks about season two
Not Jimmy asked tech questions to oody and team
Brad we'll get to you in a minute. It was just very long. You know what Brad?
It was just really long. No, I'm not gonna call you out. How many minority founders have you invested in?
He's been trying to pitch. She's been trying to pitch to you forever. And I think I think you're a
I'm gonna call you out later. I'm gonna call you out later Brad. I'll get to but this is actually a serious question
Well, just send it to the tech support channel
So I asked this question of Tyler so and you know after you know, cuz he was like explaining the whole bit process and
You know, I guess Tyler was saying that you sort of he for up cat to be accepted
You sort of need a bunch of stakeholders
To sort of accept that cop up cat right and and in my head
I'm like bro. Once you guys get a bit number, all you need is enough miners, right? And he sort of danced around the
The answer because I'm presuming that miners would want to do what's gonna make them the most money
And if op cat I'm presuming that our cat would enable them to merge mine
And so if that's the case, do you really need?
The you know, do you really need?
The soft fork right like let's say worst-case scenario
Bitcoin core devs or big Kanye fans
they'll never accept the Jewish bit and so they block you can you just go straight to like the miners and
And just get them the soft fork
Look the the the truth is it's a really complicated answer
If you I don't know if you got to if you got a chance to check out Bip Land
But you could if you wanted to click on the quantum cats
Account right here next to me as a co-host and go to the URL in the bio of the quantum cats account and get to
Bip land through that it's a cool like web experience
That can help answer the question. What needs to happen in order to activate a soft work in
The answer is very complicated as the Bip land page would show you but but it's at least fun to explore
So I would argue last resort, right?
Yeah, Jimmy's trying to hit it. I think I think it wouldn't even be that I think that like I
Wouldn't say that miners get to decide but also I wouldn't say the Bitcoin quarter voters get to decide
Yeah, yeah, there's so like if if just miners activated it
But you didn't have the economic majority of nodes enforcing it that it's not safe to use op cat
Like because people can spend coins that aren't actually encumbered by op cat. So there does need to be
Consensus of the economic majority of nodes of people who are like running their own stuff
That said that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be vended from core, right?
so like a scenario that could play out for any soft fork is the people who are
Pushing for a soft fork release an alternate client. They like fork Bitcoin core add their client
And if they can convince the economic majority of the network to run it
Then those consensus rules are now active on the network. And then at that point
It's just a really pro forma button click for Bitcoin core to merge those consensus rules into core
Right and and in some ways that might be preferable because it gets Bitcoin core out of a policymaking position
But as you said, it's super complicated
If you go to quantum cats that XYZ in the upper right hand corner, there's a button for bit land
You can go through a nice fun experience of the life of a
Soft work proposal and all the little stops along BIP land are actually links to things like mailing list posts and articles
Two of my favorite stops on BIP land are the covenants bike shed and the moving goal posts
So keep an eye out for those but enjoy BIP land at your own pace
Brad did you check those out? Did you check out the plan?
Roadmap and thought it was pretty hilarious. And then I didn't I didn't look into it beyond that. It was pretty funny
I think you personally would love it because you've been through the trenches for many years
Like us and I think there's a lot of like yeah, that's what I like
I like saw the the high level sort of thing and I didn't dig into it. But yeah, it was it was pretty funny
The the accuracy. Well, thank you
So so the moment before I asked you why you started to think that I was right. I'm gonna
Jump back to what hers for just a second
Because she has her hidden up again. What is it with hers? Just really quick. Um
So um in the previous space we were
Asking we were learning about signet, right?
And uh, roman had a question for rendell
If we introduced malware in into into signet and that was integrated
Would what would happen there?
Which wouldn't be good, let's let's not mess up signet, but yeah, it would just mess up signet not that we would um go
I mean you you made me a captain. I can't I cannot control the
The the efforts of of my people
That's what a captain does
Brad are you gonna join team dead team what
Team dead. So so for folks, so for folks who don't know there's a new uh collection from taproot wizards called quantum cats
and um the one of the points of the collection is that
A lot of people in the bitcoin development community are talking about covenants and ways that we can
Potentially upgrade bitcoin to add capabilities to help people secure their coins or to open up new layer two proposals
And help bitcoin scale safely and non-custodially to more people
Those conversations historically have kind of stalled out because not a lot of people get very involved. There aren't a lot of people
Building applications or comparing and contrasting the different trade-offs between these different proposals
so a thought that we had is that
Nft collections have in the past been really effective
at organizing communities who are like highly motivated to
You know organize and do something together. And so
To go and learn about op cat specifically but also covenants more generally
And we asked them to go and produce educational content for the broader bitcoin community
About op cat covenants what things things can do and to do it in like fun mimetic ways
So right now there's literally a couple thousand people in a discord server
That are making videos and tiktoks and twitter threads and info graphics
Like what vaults are what covenants are what op cat is why it might be a bad idea and why we might want something like ctv instead
and um, you know this community
of people that you know, some bitcoiners like don't think that jpeg enjoyers should have a seat at the table
We have a community of very engaged people who are doing a lot of work to try to
Educate the broader bitcoin community about upcoming consensus discussions
And you can join them brad you can pick whether you want to be on team alive or team dead
Because they're quantum cats. They're they're they're in quantum state
We don't know you don't want op cat team alive. Did you want op cat?
Everyone wants op cat to be honest. Uh, I can't I couldn't find anyone who doesn't want it. But um
But they're just you know
Some some of the cats are dead some of them are alive, you know, that's just the way it is
But you can choose which which which team you want to be on winner specifically prefers team dead
But anyways brad I want to go back to why I was right
So you said this morning and we have the pin tweet at the top and it says I quote it says brad mills
I'm starting to think udi wertheimer is right. So can you explain this statement?
Yeah, so it all started on my thesis on the macro now, I know we don't want to talk about macro
But we have to start. No, we already have we already have we can kind of yeah move on. Yeah, macro's over
Oh, I thought we I thought we're restarting
From the top brad i'm raising the rates
Well, it's important because if you want to understand the mindset of the uh of the of the person like me
No, wait, come on. No, listen, this is honestly
We did read my uh, did you read my thread or my my my post?
As you call them laser eyes
I'm a monetary maximalist by the way
Okay. Well bitcoin maximalists that believe that bitcoin should be optimized for specifically transactions that involve bitcoin
Transactions. I I believe that too. I would say that it is I mean, I mean the bitcoin utxo
That represents a value transfer of bitcoin. Yeah
I'm confused. We're not agreeing
There's there's two different types. There's two different types of maximalists, right? There's
bitcoiners that believe that
We should prioritize and optimize bitcoin for
Did did he freeze he's waiting for a block
No, he's what just happened
Yeah, he he disconnected for some I think he's gonna say like there's like there's a group that thinks that we should optimize for
Ordinals and then there's like a group that thinks we should optimize for like brc20s. I think that's what he's gonna
Isn't that one in the same though?
David i'm not gonna ask you to like defend a position that you you know just made up but like
You know, I I haven't heard anybody in ordinals
Want to optimize bitcoin for ordinals. It's actually kind of the opposite like
The reason why people like ordinals is because it's bitcoin
Like if if you wanted it to be ethereum you'd go and use ethereum like it's there you can use it
Yeah, what I just think just happened is that he realized that the transactions are the same for ordinals as it is for any other transaction
And he just had like this. All right, he's back. Let's let him speak for him. He's back then
All right. Let's not describe the trap
Hey, welcome back. Brad. We didn't say anything about you. I rubbed myself. We're not supposed to say the quiet part out
Oh, no, brad. It's because you you muted udi. You got to unmute him for the conversation
No, I I have a time limit set for myself on twitter and it went off and then when I remember that really one hour a day
I try to limit myself. That's remarkably healthy. Oh, I had to I did that when I muted the word udi and it's been
I mean at the very least your beard grew a lot since then so that's good. But uh, brad the you were just
You were just so I was saying that like there's there are two. There's the
Monitor. Yeah, go ahead. There's two times
You know, you can disagree with me, but maybe you want to hear my point before we debate my point
No, I think i'm agreeing with you. Will you go ahead?
I believe this is not what you believe or ordinals people believe I am just saying I think like
A lot of bitcoiners think and a lot of and if you want to understand
We're all bitcoiners on stage by the way
You make bitcoin transactions. We're all bitcoiners
So we're also holding bitcoin. Yes
And so so I and we're spending bitcoin. We're using bitcoin. We're all using bitcoin. That's right
But I don't like the idea that both sides are are just romanding each other and it's pretty extreme
Wait, wait, you said there are two types. Yeah, you can go back to the two types in my
opinion as a as a you know
Or whatever not a technical guy, but like sentience a sentient sponge
I have a thesis of the of the world that was wrong about
the relevance of the federal reserve on macro and
Maybe i'm not wrong or maybe i'm wrong on this, but let's just hear what are the two types
Monetary maximalists who are basically financial activists. Most of them are financial activists
The monetary maximalists is there like a specific company that they use the dca inquiring minds would like to know
quantum swan dot com uh swan dot com forward slash quantum if you want to uh quantum swan
You can quantum sacks all day long with quantum swan. That's it. That's a great. That can be a great orals collection the quantum swans
Wait, wait, it has to be another covenant. It's gonna be check sig from swan
But brad the two types yeah, so we've got
And you know, it would be nice if we all kind of like
We're we're intellectually honest with each other more rather than straw manning each other
So i'm gonna do that. So here's the
Here's the two types of bitcoiners and I fell more into the camp squarely on one side
And i'm sort of coming towards the center. I'm not going towards the other side describe the sides to us. The two sides are the
Activists monetary maximalist bitcoiners the ones that are here for specifically
the two use cases of bitcoin as
peer-to-peer cash and store value
And that's primarily what they're here. So so
In that group me and you I would say I would say you are in the platform
Maximalist group more than you would be in the monetary
Activist describe the platform one the platform the platform maximalist bitcoiners are more like
Rindell and people like that. They're like cypherpunk
Entrepreneur capitalist bitcoiners and and wait, but can't capitalists
Entrepreneurs also think that bitcoin is a monetary. Well, there's there's it's if we're going to have two sides
Those would be the two sides if we're going to separate into groups
Those would be the two two probably biggest identifiable groups
There's the platform maximalist bitcoiners and the financial, you know activists bitcoiners
Whoever or whatever group that might have been was a bit of both
And I doubt satoshi used the word defi. Also, it's pronounced satashi
Yeah satashi. Um, I learned that yesterday satashi new flavor
I kind of a bit of a bit of platform and a bit of
Monetary store of value like don't you think and the fact that everyone keeps disappearing
Bitcoin should be for is a little bit goofy. I'm not trying to
Project what I think satoshi thought you i'm just saying to the overall
I just i'm talking about the reality
I'm just talking about the reality of what's happening. That's really all i'm trying to talk about and
It doesn't just no. No, no, I see
I just think the reality of what's happening is a little bit goofy because I think the foundation of
Bitcoin was a mixture of both
Yeah, I was just gonna say like all those two groups. I feel like the second group
believes in what you frame the first group as believing at like
The the second group actually sees it as both those things and then the first group just doesn't see it
That's true as what the second group sees that's true
But also it's a little bit not true because i'm invested in many bitcoin companies
a lot of the bitcoin investor investments I have are
Entrepreneurs who are building bitcoin?
Wallets bitcoin layers bitcoin marketplaces noster companies
Lightning lsp's like all kinds of stuff. They're entrepreneurs. Wouldn't you say that in order to invest?
The recipient of the investment has to be an entrepreneur almost by definition. Yes, so that's what i'm saying. You can invest in uh,
You can't invest in a cause that's donation. Well bitcoin
To the monetary maximus is the cause it is investing in a cause to the monetary
No, no, okay, but but but but you don't invest you donate to a cause if you're investing
Well, that's the difference by definition. You're investing in entrepreneurs, right?
Well, that's the difference between the platform maximus and the monetary maximus
I believe that like the people like the differences that the first group does not understand the meaning of words
I'm not arguing with like it's okay
Do you want to donate for you in a way udi because because a lot of people confuse bitcoin with a cult when bitcoin is actually
Pure memetic desire, which is the foundational fuel for all religions. Well, bitcoin is a religion. That's really interesting, right?
So like, um, i've you know, i've met a lot of people who are trying to
Build, um what I would call like bitcoin native
Uh companies organizations, etc, right where it's like, you know, you're like you're
A core part of what you're doing involves interacting with bitcoin, right? Like, um
you know inscriptions companies, for example, like
making bitcoin transactions is
Is like a core competency of
Like tapper wizards, for example, right? Like we we we have like
Specialized proprietary software to make special bitcoin transactions. Like we we literally do
You know engineering to do like bitcoin that's very different from like microstrategy
That invests in bitcoin as like an asset on the balance sheet, right? Like like those are kind of different things
What's interesting is a lot of the companies that i've met
That like really invest in building products and services on bitcoin and for bitcoin
Do it because they uh, they they see an opportunity for a good business, but then also because
You know money is a social network
Right, like the more people you can use your money with the more useful your money is
And so I think a lot of people if you like really believe that bitcoin is going to be the best money
For all of the properties that makes bitcoin good money
then then you kind of come to the conclusion that like
We need to get as many people as possible using bitcoin
like as soon as possible and the
You know, i'm gonna bury this in my backyard like use case like that that a plot or that that's appealing to a subset of
the population, but it's like not everybody right and and so
You know, the thing that i've found is that a lot of people who are interested in
You know ordinals or second layer payments or um, uh assisted custody products like all of these things
Everybody's sort of working in the same direction, which is like, how do we get more people?
Using bitcoin as like a useful thing whether that's for saving or for spending or for speculation or whatever
And the the end of that road for any of these things is like more people use bitcoin which makes bitcoin more useful
So like I I don't necessarily see
the uh, like the platform maximalists
Not believing in the monetary maximalism. I see like the platform maximalist play
as a uh, like more effective road to realize the monetary maximalism because like
me buying bitcoin and trying to like convince my friends and family to
Install lightning wallets. Like I I tried that for many years
Um, that's having way less impact
Uh create like digital collectibles that they want to buy right like like those so rindell have different effects that is definitely
I'm not going to say is wrong
I'm just going to say that you know that that's
Your view of the world and I am sympathetic to that view of the world
But I also think that like you wouldn't be probably very successful at going and getting your friends and family to buy
Quantum cats and like they would probably be like what are you smoking?
You know what I mean? Like i'm not giving up on trying to get people to buy bitcoin
I've i've onboarded like 30 people and directly to bitcoin wallets in the last month because
Always talking about bitcoin wait 30 whole people like 30 entire people
Well, like and yeah personally if if that if that works for belly to belly, that's great
Like like that's great. If that works for you
Like the thing that i'm saying is that it's an and not an or
Right, like I think I think all of us are working towards
Bitcoin, I know but what i'm saying though is that different ways
And I and that's what i'm saying
That's what I believe that there's like two different types of bitcoiners that are just kind of have different world views
and we straw man each other instead of like
Debating civilly and like say oh, well you're a shit pointer and oh, no, you're a laser
The two groups are the and group or the or group, you know, that's the no, I don't agree with that
It's both it's both like there's a spectrum on both sides because the entrepreneurs that i'm investing in are building
Application, you know platform use cases for bitcoin but on like second layers and using discrete log contracts and things like that
They're just they just believe that
some of the use cases that you guys believe are valuable are scammy and they're not like
Real businesses that they want to okay, but but how but how does that contradict what david said?
Because david said that the monetary maximalists don't don't value platform the bitcoin platform as a platform
Whereas i think it's fair also value
Like if uh, so I i'm trying not to like straw man a group or anything
But i'm going to a little bit like there definitely is
An end of the laser eye spectrum. That's like you should never spend your bitcoins anything spending your bitcoin is a scam
And so like those people probably do think that deba and all these other, you know businesses that are
trying to build tokens on layer like
Man once once people connect the dots that rgb is going to be used to do stable coins on lightning
There's going to be a lot of a lot of laser eyed salt on bitcoin about deba
Right. Well, that's the thing that that's what i'm that's
That goes back to the macro and the federal reserve
Rindell because of course it does
It's not but just before you get there brad and I will let you get there
But before you get there, I just want to say that the opposite is not true, right?
You don't have people in the ordinals camp. You are not going to find an extreme
Ordinal enjoyer who's going to say no holding btc is bad. It's scammy. It's stupid. Don't do that
Like there's not a single person like that
So everyone in the ordinals camp literally every single one agrees that holding bitcoin is probably a good idea
That you you should do it and they do it themselves
However on the laser eye camp or whatever you want to call them
There are a lot of people who would say that the opposite is
You know and so on and so forth. So I think there is a difference
Yeah, I mean they're that's true, but that's not relevant. Really. It doesn't matter
When are we getting to the part where you uh realized that I was right?
I'm really looking forward to that. So as I said, you know, I talked to grok, right?
And I I started going in and because you know, i'm seeing my fellow bitcoin financial activist bitcoiners
I'm invested in as teko, which is like
onboarding people across the global south with
lnurl pieces of paper at actual stores like
In kenya and stuff people will go in with like five dollars and get a piece of paper
And they've been very I don't know if you're joking or if you're serious. No, seriously
It's like you know, there's lots of ways to onboard people to bitcoin
This is actually one successful way, but then as the fees started to rise it kind of ruined their business
You know, it didn't ruin their business. I mean that's not I don't have any data on that
It obviously didn't but like it made it more difficult for people to like easily access
Opening a lightning channel and like starting a lightning wallet and that kind of get to the part where i'm right
Yeah, forget where I was going with that one I kind of walked myself
Off the uh, the macro trail there
But I get back to like I want to see who's actually using ordinals and like what's actually happening here because my fellow
bitcoin or you know financial activists
Um are saying this is all stacks and bsv and affinity scamming and all this stuff, right?
Took a little bit of a dive into it
But when I saw the wall it's getting downloaded on
RGB and because you know, I don't know what's wash trading and and shit like what's real
What's just people pumping their own collections to just grift and do whatever so i'm like i'm not going to be
Spending all this time going in discords and stuff like that
But then when I started seeing like downloads and users and stuff, I'm like something else is happening
It's not just obvious. It's clearly not, you know, the miners have made like a hundred two hundred million dollars in extra fees
20 of the block space has been taken up by inscription transactions like that is a significant
factor in the influence of uh, what
The free market thinks about whether this is spam or not
So i'm like I have to be a little bit more open-minded about looking at what's really going on
and as I did that I realized that
It you know, there's this book when money dies and everybody should read it
If you're, you know interested in reading the bitcoin mailing list
I mean you could also probably take time to listen to the audiobook of when money dies
And there's this really interesting statistic. I always think about that from that book. It was it's about
the hyperinflation in Weimar Germany and what it was like right before hyperinflation in
And you had 20 percent of the population were not working normal jobs anymore
They were out there buying foreign currencies going to farms and buying hay bales and and and just like, you know
Random crap like bags of industrial bags of food for animals. They were going to
Uh stores and buying up certain like like cornering the market on cans of beans
And just like they were like literally just like
Speculating on toilet paper and you know, like we did when covid hit like the toilet paper flew off the shelves
So when you have 10 or 20 percent of a population that are driven to speculate because their currency is dying
You have a very interesting situation where like the market is not rational and the actors are not acting rationally
When I saw that this inscriptions thing
And not just like, you know
It wasn't just staying on bitcoin when I saw it moving over to other blockchains and actually like
JSON data into the call data section of an ethereum transaction and and like bypassing Vitalik's gas meter design and just like literally like
His whole reason during the op the op return war is to say that like he was justifying the value of ethereum was to say
Like if you're going to do a platform or an app on the blockchain
You should be charged an appropriate rate based on the impact it has on the other people using the network
And that was the whole reason to use gas and like the gas
calculations, but these these ordinal like inscriptions dgen slot figured out a way to just stuff inscriptions and jasons into
ethereum transactions in the call data and then they went and did that on arbitrum and they did that on
Avalanche and Solana and they've actually broke
multiple blockchains and now Vitalik's
Coping with this by raising the gas limit 33 percent like it's hilarious
So i'm like, this is not an attack on bitcoin. This is an attack on other blockchains actually like legitimately
It shut down showed how centralized and broken these other layer twos and shit are
And so i was like there's something else here and then and then this is where I saw the xrc 20s
You know the bitcoin transactions are too expensive. So you have a you have the united states basically shoving inflation globally
It's just about the fed again
No, this is about what is the reality of the situation of of where we are and why I
Why i'm kind of capitulating on some of my views on things because it doesn't matter if we try to
filter it or if we try to convince miners to
You know charge more for inscriptions transactions or whatever
There's an insatiable demand for speculating coming out of china
Like if you have 20 percent of the chinese citizens that are like doing what they did in wymar germany before hyperinflation
That's like 200 million people or 400 million people potentially
Speculating on digital toilet paper brad side note. They might get another stimulus in china
And so that's what's also and we're gonna get it here too
Like this is a precursor for what's going to happen here
Like once if they if they pivot and start printing we get another 10 20 trillion dollars printed
People are just going to be speculating again
They're just going to be going crazy because they're trying to flee their toilet paper currencies and buy digital toilet paper
Which is basically jason blurbs. So they the bitcoin transactions were too expensive for them
So they went and started tweeting jason blurbs. I'm not like seriously go look at hashtag xrc20
Xrc20 tokens have been created in the last two weeks and it said there's 20 million
Inscriptions on twitter in the last two weeks
That's not an attack on bitcoin
Insatiable demand for speculation. They're using twitter as a blockchain
Like these these people don't care what layer it's on. They don't give a shit
They're just like speculating wildly enough to use twitter as the blockchain
Grok even then said like oh, this is uh, like using a banana to hammer a nail. They should use a blockchain
You have an unhealthy relationship with grok i'm just saying
So that is one of the reasons brad. Are you aware that grok is also texting other people? I don't know if you know
But this relationship is not exclusive brad
I've only used it like twice
It was to ask what their coin tina thought about something two years ago and then to ask it about xrc20 tokens
Based on the number of times that brad has said xrc20 in this space
I have a feeling that over 50 percent of brad's net worth right now is in
Is in kevin or stamps have you heard of xrc20 david daily clarify which xrc20?
I don't have any xrcs or brc's or
Urban from c's or whatever. I got none of the stuff. I'm just i'm just like, you know
Looking at this kind of blown away that saving up to mint quantum cats. So what you're saying is you're against diversity
I always fulfill my dei quota jimmy, you know that i've invested in 6.15 minority founders
All right, i'm gonna throw this to dan because by the way, uh
Brad i'm gonna disclose a private dm that you sent me apparently if there's some discussion that brad wants to have with dan
Uh, I don't know what it is. But but let's let's uh, throw this to dan and see what what we're getting to
Hey guys, thanks for having me up here and uh brad glad we uh warmed things up so we can chat again about
I think that both sides by the way, I don't think that you know, there's this whole monetary versus platform. I don't necessarily see these as
ideas, right like there's somewhat complementary and
What I found over time was that
You've got bitcoin's value props why bitcoin is valuable
It allows people to store wealth in an asset that has the most credible monetary policy on the planet
You can send it to anyone you want can't be censored and you can store it in a way. That is extremely hard to seize
That's that's bitcoin's value props from like a product perspective, right?
When users use bitcoin, that's what they're taking advantage of now. How do we get someone to
Understand bitcoin us libertarian types. I was studying finance and undergrad during the oh wait
Financial crisis and I was radicalized by that
But that's an extremely few percentage of the population that would have a financial background understand what happened and and be radicalized from that behavior
You know next down the bitcoin rabbit hole
I saw silk road and silk road was an incredible testament to bitcoin's resiliency that it couldn't be shut down and that you could use it
Now these are very radical libertarian ideas
You know and the bitcoin community was quite small back then. This is you know, 2011 2012, you know 2013
and when we look at how did
adoption of bitcoin occur
we had a couple different competing narratives for a while we had the
Kind of speculative store of value narrative and then we had the payments narrative
undeniable now after 2013 2017 and 2021 that a vast majority of bitcoin
Adoption and new user adoption has occurred because of speculative cycles. I wish humans didn't work that way
They come in for the speculation they stick around for the sound money and a lot of bitcoin educators
They think actually confuse their role. They think the role is new user adoption
Yes, they do impact that slightly, but it's actually about retention
People come in for speculation, but they stick around because they read
Brad's content my content other people's content around why bitcoin is important
And so when I look at these, you know platform versus monetary, I don't think it's
Really these competing narratives. I see the platform aspect being more of
What are ways that people can take their bitcoin and speculate with it or what are these speculative games that introduce people to bitcoin?
Let me give you an example on the aetherium side and i'll wrap this up in a couple minutes to let people chime in
I went to nftnyc the last two years
And while i'm there i'm talking to people about their aetherium nfts and they're like, yeah
Nft for 0.1 eth and I flipped it for 0.3 and i'm like, oh nice. Congratulations. You know, I made some money
And you know, what do you like about aetherium? Do you like proof of stake?
They don't know any of that
And at first I laughed and scoffed and i'm like, oh silly aetherium people, of course, of course
They don't know this sort of stuff
But then I realized that a huge percentage of bitcoiners were the same thing
In fact, the bank of canada did a multi-thousand user survey in 2017 2018 and 2019
53 of bitcoin holders did not know that bitcoin had a hard cap
So when we look at why do people get into bitcoin a vast majority of through speculation?
I think most people hearing this message know that in the core of their heart that most of the people came in
When he first came in he probably came in because he wanted to make some money
When we look at aetherium, it has more speculative games that pull in for example nft's pull in creative types
And those folks come in and now they have they they speculated a little bit
But what's left in their wallet aetherium aetherium's left on their wallet
And now they're thinking in an aetherium standard and aetherium is their first introduction to a crypto asset
Then we look at you know bitcoin bitcoin has very few speculative games to play
It has a base if if you think about bitcoin and aetherium or new money
They're essentially the base token at the casino the speculative casino
bitcoin's only game for a while was spot speculation, you know people buy it goes up it goes down
And there weren't other games like uh options futures, you know futures came about and options came about and then you
Have yield farming blending borrowing nft's the aetherium casino has far more speculative activities
Ultimately, you know, how do the how do we convert those speculators into long-term hodlers? That's where the educators come in
And that's where you know, we all champion and ring the bell of hey, by the way
Congrats, you made a bunch of money on on bitcoin
But like, you know, you want to store some wealth in this over the long period of time
You want to self-custody this asset?
So I think the message that I think I kind of see the two camps in bitcoin not being platform versus monetary
It's about just accepting the being more. I would say moderate and accepting that the human condition
Is a quote unquote center that you're a center speculator
That this is just how humans are
And the other one says like these are evil bad activities and we should shame and make people feel bad for it
And so I think it's one one camp of acceptance. It's going hey, I know you're a center
But you know long-term you don't want to hold your net worth in doge, right?
Like yeah, take it from an old time where yeah, you made a little bit of money
But you don't want to you're not going to store a long-term wealth in doge
You're going to store it in bitcoin and you know that and I know that you know, so i'd say that
That kind of like summarizes my uh, my thoughts on like the future of bitcoin why defying bitcoin is important
And how it plays an important part in the growth of the bitcoin network
Um, I I mostly agree with everything you said there it's just that I don't necessarily right at the end
I don't necessarily agree that that's the real viewpoint like sure
There is some people that are like moralizing this thing and like oh you're evil for doing
Nft's or whatever i'm sure that's a percentage and you know as you know
Like the most the two percent most active of any community are the ones that are on twitter
So it looks like there's a lot of like people that that believe that in bitcoin
But I don't I think it's just it's just we're skewed our views of the real situation by being on twitter are skewed
But I think it's a lot less bitcoiners care about. Oh, this is evil. It's more like i'm just saying i'm just percent
Presenting this is like my theory of like how I think about the debate
Around what what would we should use bitcoin for?
Through the history through the lens of what we've had in the past when we had debates about should we be using?
Um, should we be using like using bitcoin for like satoshi dice transactions?
Should we be using bitcoin for counterparty and omnilayer transactions?
Like should we be using the bitcoin transactions to make tether swaps?
Should we be like issuing icos on bitcoin with an omnilayer like, you know, counterparty tokens things like that
and when we've had these debates in the past we've always had the
bitcoin sort of like, you know as a monetary use case maximless kind of influenced the conversation the developers influenced the
conversation over the developers that prioritize or wanted to prioritize apps and
Speculative use cases other than just like money and things like that
They always held like they always seemed to kind of win the conversation and win the debates
And bitcoin was like bitcoin was shepherded in a way that like prioritized keeping the block size
Uh small so that we could be good stewards of block space spam filters like the block size itself is a spam filter
And satoshi, you know, whether we use them as a source of authority or not
like definitely was aware that users were going to get tyrannical about how they use the block space and
the thing that i'm seeing now
200 million chinese people wanting to speculate on bitcoin transactions
and back then there wasn't um
There wasn't like a huge amount of people that had
a momentum and and like a
permissionless way to do this
without trying to soft fork bitcoin like the the
Current like the inscriptions thing when when casey released inscriptions
It was like I said in the thing, you know, it's it's like a punk rock thing. It's like a lot of people
believe that if you do anything like this on bitcoin, you're going to get ostracized and you're going to get hate mail and all the like
Monetary maximists are going to like throw you out of the temple or whatever. But casey just did it. He's a bitcoiner
He's a bitcoin developer. He used bitcoin in a way that maybe was
It wasn't meant to be used or whatever but you know
Rodolfo Novak kind of helped me think through this with his posts and stuff about like, you know team valid transaction and
The idea that we're gonna
Try to fork out or change bitcoin
Um, like we're the ones that would soft work bitcoin to to fix the bug
You know what? I mean, there's not enough energy behind that so it's not even a serious conversation
so that's why i'm thinking like
Why i'm saying at this point?
You know the amount of momentum from the the gigantic funnel of speculators that want to use bitcoin to speculate with
Whether or not we want whether or not what we care about
It doesn't matter. It's a valid transaction. The miners are getting tons of money for mining this shit and
The majority of the users of bitcoin decide that this is this is a problem like it's it's going to continue
John saith actually helped me think through this on clubhouse a bit too like
he I I do believe that like
This is going to get priced out at a certain fee rate and you know
We all know that bitcoin's fees are going to be astronomical in the future in terms of what they were in the past if bitcoin succeeds
Whether or not ordinals exist and inscriptions exist if we succeed at bitcoin becoming just money
If the bitcoin blocks are going to be full of monetary transactions
So like there are the fees were always going to go up
What the ordinals people did was like pulled forward which I think is the is a benefit because we were designing lightning network
Use case and ux in a way that was just like not realistic
Like we had we were using zero conference actions and shit like that like that doesn't work in high fee environments
So all these degens and speculators and stuff that are building stuff
Even if you believe it's spam and even if you believe it's not good for bitcoin, whatever
It's exposing flaws in the designs of the user experience of how we wanted to scale bitcoin
And it's actually pushing forward the conversation on on legitimate bitcoin scaling that
Is making me excited like I can't help but be excited about
People like rindell jumping into the conversation and this whole op cat thing like
All this stuff that you guys are doing
I don't think like i'm not going to recommend people buy the nfts
And I think it's kind of kind of dumb to like speculate on jasons and stuff like that
but what makes me excited and why I think season two is real, you know in a way is that
I feel now like the way I felt in like 2013 to like 2016 where
The smartest people in the room were debating about bitcoin and I had no business being in the conversation because i'm an idiot
I felt like I could keep up with the conversation about how we're going to scale bitcoin
I'm a bitcoin monetary maximalist. I'm not a developer. I'm not like a cypherpunk sort of like tech guy
I shouldn't be involved in the conversation
I shouldn't be able to follow the conversation of what the smartest minds in the room are talking about how to scale bitcoin
And for once, I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about for a long time and this isn't this isn't a slight on
bitcoin developers because the bitcoin developers
Went and started building shit on lightning network and
noster and like, you know
stratum v2 and all these really interesting
Adjacent things for bitcoin and working on there's lots of improvements that have been made to bitcoin, but there was no real
Covenants activation at any sort of point in when we need it to scale bitcoin if we get demand for a hundred million
200 million people to use bitcoin
Use bitcoin in a more efficient way and be more dense
And efficient with our transactions and we need something like
Covenants and all this other stuff. So the the the bike shed and the hold up that was happening with the conversation was like
The smartest people in the room who were the monetary maximalist cypherpunks
weren't engaging with people like jeremy rubin who were like proposing
What seems to have consensus on a really?
exciting important upgrade to bitcoin because
For one we shouldn't demand that they do that. They're every they're busy. They're volunteering most of the time
Like they're not our you know
Employees that we can just say hey go review this code
So like the fact that the mont that the platform maximalists have so much influence right now
Is making me excited not because there's grifting with jpegs
It's because they're actually pushing forward the conversation about bitcoin scaling and it's going to and it's going to end up with
A really net positive thing for bitcoin
So I don't care about what people are building and what what discord they're in and all this shit
What i'm excited about is like all this d-gen stuff is going to be extremely good for bitcoin
All right, i'm going to ship it back to dan and then uh
And then we're going to go to sange because he has a amazing accent and then whitters
She has a good accent too dan. Go ahead honestly whitters
It's uh, you know, i'm from texas the the southern accent was great the other day
You're cracking me up. So that was i'm excited as well
uh brad appreciate the response and uh, you know, I also get where you're coming from too, I think like a lot of the
You know the more monetary maximalist if you want to label that group that way
I would call them my personal like reference for some of these folks is more puritan
uh, I think you know when we look at
The they kind of view bitcoin as like, okay
It's money right and there's this kind of strict framework for money
It's a store of value medium exchange and unit of account
And I think you know, it's a little hard for people to kind of rock, you know, what is
How does the money get used in like a digital?
Context right like they they think that you know using it for transactions like buying coffee and stuff like oh, that's like a money
It's like finally fulfilling its purpose
But if we go back to bitcoin's value props of being hard to seize immutable
And having the most credible monetary policy. None of that speaks to
And so I think a lot of folks, you know
We've prescribed to this payments narrative because it's like the easiest thing to crock for a money because that's how we use our dollars
But when in reality, you know, if you go like nyx albo's origins of money
We're talking about going from a collectible to store value era and we're still somewhat in that era of bitcoin isn't a
Globally adopted money yet. It's still a very low percentage
Of a population that that owns it
And so I think that that group is a little like putting the cart in front of the horse
We're like yes, eventually bitcoin will use be used for medium of exchange and unit of account
But we're a little early for that. We've got to have higher market penetration more price stability
And having more on and off ramps, etc to where it's ubiquitous
Um, you know, I think when it comes to like block space usage over time
I've got an article coming out called casino games which covers a lot of the things I mentioned in this
Conversation and also a little bit deeper dive into this section is called keep off my block space
So keep off my block space section in that section. I deep dive into
Old, you know, what are the most early use cases or like usage of bitcoin block space?
It's gambling. It's the toshi dice. It's silk road. These aren't
These aren't pure coffee transactions on the blockchain. It's actually predominantly speculative activities and then
You look at the spike in fees during bolt runs
Is that because there's a surge of people buying coffee?
No, it's a surge of people moving their funds from their cold storage to an exchange to sell it or vice versa
And so, you know, I don't think speculation is this dirty word and some of the last part of
The last part of my piece casino games it covers
Speculation is this word that's kind of thrown around with any new type of asset
For example nowadays, we've got like zero day to expiration options that are exploding in popularity because people like to
Speculate on the outcome of a inequity, you know with
Just the day day's worth of time period passing and those are highly volatile assets
There's you know, it's the theta decay on these options is nuts. They basically are worth nothing
You know, they're worth a lot by the end of the day
But if you look at the history and you look at the creation of options with samurai
It's they're called sam. They were called samurai options where the early options were for rice
Essentially like hedging for rice production
And you look at the first formation of equity as an instrument back in the 14 1500s
They use that as a way to speculate as to if a ship would come back
Laid in with goods or not or you know, if you put your money in and the ship disappeared you lost all your money
So equity was actually a new financial instrument as of 500, you know, 600 years ago
And that was considered highly speculative when the east indies company collapsed due to fraud
The british government refused to grant a new equity or like a new equity charter for a hundred years
You know, so even the concept of like equity
I think any new type of financial asset, you know
The speculative nature of it the human nature of it embedded in it is a little disturbing
I think with every time a new type of financial asset comes out where like this is scary like
Like why are people buying these things and why is it going up? Why are people buying meme coins, right?
These things are literally just memes
But that's just inherent in human nature and and our best hope
Is that we can harness that speculative wind?
And use that to build the bitcoin network and indeed if we look at
How many developers and and vc funding and wallet creations and on-chain activity
It's all correlated with these speculative cycles
Speculation has always been part of human nature always has been the meme
And it is what it is now and that's that's kind of my that'll wrap up my thoughts on that
Brad before uh before we let you explain why uh, why you realize that i'm right
I want a one sange to uh, he's been very patient. So I want to hear what you have to say
Wait, did you miss the whole explanation? I already explained it
Now I feel like maybe some people didn't get it
Maybe like you need to repeat the part about specifically where you've gone to the bathroom there or what? What happened?
He was talking to grok. No
We don't do that and then we'll start we don't need that, uh
But sange go ahead go ahead
Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask about the macro but that's something else
There I think one of the things which is probably and I I guess from listening to
sounding like most you thought most people come from bsv is a lot of ordinals is probably still
pretty misunderstood because
There was a few bsv companies early on which were
Definitely, I guess taking the reins and and doing a lot of things. But I think lately it's
A lot of it is actually it's still shit coins
I guess but a lot of it's from eath and soul and that sort of thing which are like
I think a lot of people I mean i'm one of them I spent like a couple years on eath because
And like I I held bitcoin but didn't do much on bitcoin because there wasn't
As much to do and I think there's a lot of people similar like on a zk shark who runs
One of the biggest projects omb was was similar he spent a lot of time on soul because we couldn't do anything on bitcoin, but when
Bitcoin I guess when casey dropped this and gave the opportunity to actually build cool things on bitcoin
It's brought a lot of developers which
Might have been on other chains and have basically
when I wouldn't say come bitcoin maxis, but like I don't touch anything on ethereum anymore because
What we've been doing on bitcoin is just so much more exciting and like feels like we can actually
Build cool things on bitcoin, which we couldn't really do before so I think it's like
And I don't blame a lot of people for it
Not realizing I guess because it's like you only see that the loudest stuff as well
But I think a lot of the ordinals has definitely got a bad name from some of the bsv stuff
But most of us aren't bsv maxis
I think which is I don't know if that's if you got the
The idea that most of us are bsv or not, but um
Yeah, it's it's definitely not the majority I don't think
You know, I will say that there's some some bsv people
That I like I feel like uh have been working on platform stuff for quite a while
Since there's no bsv users. They really didn't have any traction for any of their of their work
Like as they've gotten a taste of like actually building products for
Real users and like for the the the bitcoin network
realigning themselves to bitcoin because they realize that it has
A future so I have noticed like some people that were pretty hardcore bsv people that
You know in private conversations
Like like getting a taste of ordinals ecosystem the past year they it's like they realized
That how much folly they've been going through and that like
They're wasting their time not not focusing here
It's interesting, uh, the bsv stuff I think you know, like there's I mean bsv is
In many ways obviously technically similar to bitcoin because it did kind of spawn off of bitcoin at least in a technical way
And I think you know, like over time a bunch of people
Because you know people like us, you know that have been in bitcoin for a while and have seen like the
Bch and bsv wars play out to us. It's like
blasphemy to even think that someone would choose
but a bunch of people kind of started out after that of and of course they did because we're like
Fucking boomers and dinosaurs. Of course people joined later
And they you know, many of them just happened to be
Exposed to that social circle when they joined crypto the first time they're like, you know
They were told that bsv is bitcoin or whatever and that's where they started their careers and whatever and then and
But at some point, you know, so they learned about bitcoin script through bsv
Right, but at some point when orinals started they're like, okay, we can use the skill set we already have
The interesting thing was I think a bunch of like the the the laser eyes the bitcoin maxis
Refused to touch ordinals for some reason
So it was an open field for the bsv people because look someone needed to build it
Right and they were among the only people who knew enough about bitcoin scripting and had enough of the experience
That they could build it and they were not like ideologically opposed and what ended up happening
Just like they've been said is they're like wait when I build bitcoin products people actually use them
So, maybe I should maybe I should move to do that instead of doing bsv stuff and and there's a lot of people
Really? There's a lot of people
in the bsv camp that became
Best corners through that experience. So I
To me that's obviously good. I've seen some people who've been complaining about that like, oh you you have bsv years
But it's like isn't that isn't what we're supposed to do to onboard people
The true bitcoin maxis stance is like
Destroy the forks of bitcoin and like consume them and have like take their user base and and have them become
It's happening and they're like bitter about it. I mean, it's it's absurd
but you know, I feel like you described the situation well in terms of just like
people came after the fact into this stuff and i've had so much like disrespect for
bsv and craig wright i mean craig wright is just
Such a transparent scammer. I mean, it's so cringe to watch him try to scam
That I have I haven't even ever even looked into it
I haven't even given like, you know, even looked at the companies that were built or whatever. I just assumed they're all kind of like fake
You know some of these people that i've met like, um
You know, I won't say anyone's name in particular, but like one of them I talked to
New like bitcoin script better than like anyone
I mean, i'm not gonna say anyone i've talked to in in the from the bitcoin community, but do it fucking well
and then you know another another
knew more about the intricacies of utxos than like
I've really heard anyone else describe and it's like, okay. These are not like idiots like these are like
Pretty smart people. I don't know how the fuck they got in in craig's
sphere of you know alternative reality, but
um, uh sharp people and then they all have like kind of axes to grind from the standpoint of like
They've only seen their asset go down in value. So it's like that kind of like, you know makes a certain type of person but
yeah, no, and and I see it happening in in crypto too, but I definitely see the the
Platform forks like kind of have no purpose now
They didn't ever really have a purpose, but they they really don't have a purpose now
Totally brad before we before we go to you explaining, uh how you
Realize that that was right. Let's do
Uh winters quickly and then go go and then back to brad because he really wants to talk about how it was worked
so brad darlin, um, you said something interesting, um, and whenever you're previously talking with your
bitcoin was supposed to be used and if you'll just zoom in if you'll click me and then just like zoom in
Real close on and there's all these letters that make up my kitty cat
On the genesis blog satoshi himself inscribed, uh some arbitrary data on bitcoin
uh when he mined that and um, and it was the high the headline at the time
The times newspaper and it said the chancellor on the brink of a second bailout for banks
And um, I mean just this week we heard
Oh, fuck. I can't remember the name of the fiat deemed big dick. Um, but he said
That bitcoin is this generation's hedge on inflation
and um as an ordinals enjoyer
I i'm purchasing those as a store a store of value and that value is bitcoin
um, and I could see like exactly what you were saying by
Not everything, um is you know, the creme de la creme, right?
With movements like omb and I don't know if you've had a conversation at sant sant mentioned zk, but it if
You're open to it. I think that that would be an amazing, uh conversation
But if the participants that are on the spam are viewing the ordinal protocol as a store of bitcoin, um
And let's say and then this is just something that I invented in my head
Um, so so just go with me put on your imagination hat
If if that ordinal or that spam in your in your view is a liquid
Satoshi that is inscribed on is locked up
unspendable in that wallet
Does that not make bitcoin?
Deflationary and more scarce and does that not fit into the monetary maximalist camp that you were
That you were talking about or
Again, I just made that up in my head. Um
I'm, just curious for it's like any
Well, yeah, jimmy jimmy, uh has a better answer
Yes, deflationary just shook in his pants
Yeah, you know well, uh brat this is a family friendly tourist space look witters see you need to understand
Was founded on the heels of occupy wall street, right when satoshi
Was slaving away to to to you know usher this amazing technology to the world
Satoshi was dcaing and so on at the time by the way
Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know when when he when he provided this amazing technology this amazing money
Right because our currency was being debased
You know the purpose of it
Was for people like me and brad
to take a flight to al Salvador
And pay for a five dollar blow job using chiva wallet using the base layer, you know
And so if we can't do that
Environment if we can't do that in the high fee environment this this is an infringement
Uh, and it's an it's it's it's against the it just goes against the purpose of bitcoin itself
And so, you know witters you have to understand this. Thank you
You just reminded me jimmy of another dream. I had about richard hard. Uh, so what we're gonna do
We're gonna go back to the family friendly
Uh, because at least in some places in the world, it's it's it's very early. I think you know, I got another one for me
If you can handle if you can handle having two yo, udi is done with us guys
He's gonna he's never gonna talk to me again
I think jimmy meant like a a blowout like getting his hair dry. Okay
Hair hair five dollars a little stuff. Yeah hair care, uh products are very affordable in the summer
So since we're since we're talking about spam there, um
winners talked about spam, right
And I am your donor. I'm a donor
and i'm a filter and joyer
And I do believe that a lot of this stuff is spam
But I also believe that team valid transaction. So
It doesn't matter what I think about it
bitcoin miners should opt into using stratum v2 to help
Get rid of the risk of centralization of mining and the growing concern that all these miners are getting I got a question for you
I got a question for you because you said you said a word, uh that I hate
You used the word should you said, uh, bitcoin miners should do x in your case. It was they should use
I was wrong and i'm gonna explain why finally go ahead. Finally, go ahead
So I believe that the miners should act altruistically and that there
Would be a large amount and I remember udi we got into a little bit of an argument about a year ago
Impossible on the on a space specifically about this issue and I said
You know you said don't be surprised when miners
Choose to go out of band and like mine these things and make more profits and I said don't be surprised when people
uh a way to try to filter them out and to try to
Encourage miners to opt into not mining them
I I think I was a little bit
Um naive in that assumption that like public companies would choose to not make money
And that they would value long-term
A monetary use case over short-term profits for their you know, they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders
They have to pay the bills
And I thought that there was a lot more like altruistic miners that were like there
There were more but there's a plot twist
Brad because you don't have to be disappointed by this outcome because
Fulfilling their fiduciary duty in optimizing for maximum profit by doing that
They are securing bitcoin
Yeah, but that's not even the real problem. That's that's
People who think there's a problem with bitcoin security just no. No, I don't I don't I don't even mean that
I I don't even mean that I just mean that by
Economically rational actors and not altruistic by doing that
They're helping to secure bitcoin and they're helping to make it censorship resistant
Like the only reason that bitcoin is censorship resistant is because you always know that there is going to be an economical
Economically rational actor that's going to include your transactions eventually if you pay it out
And that's that's why bitcoin is censorship resistant. That's the only way the only reason I didn't realize that until
I mean like I kind of obviously bitcoin works because of the fee market and the incentives and all that stuff and the
Byzantine generals problem to solve with proof of work in the bitcoin unit like incentivizing them to be honest actors and all of that
And that's why it's decentralized and censorship resistant
the growing fudge from like
all of the no-coiners and even like shit-coiners and even some bitcoiners that were thinking like
And the centralization of mining hash power in the united states
Opens up a real serious risk of bitcoin being co-opted by wall street and by
Ofac where they will then be able to ban
Legitimate bitcoin transactions like create offac lists that public miners are not able to mine
Because they're the hash powers concentrating the united states and public companies have just like, you know
Liquidity providers and shit-coin chains have to like the third us companies
They're they're already pre-complying with all the regulators is that they're making billions of dollars. They're not gonna say nope
I'm gonna stick with decentralization and censorship resistance. They're just gonna comply and they are complying
And the risk is that they do that with bit. Yeah, but but but
There's always going to be another mining pool
That will take your transactions if they pay enough even if even if you have whatever like 80 percent are offac compliant
Even if that is so sure if even if a lot like the mining hash power continues to concentrate in the united states
I think the ordinal inscription demand
Is a net positive for bitcoin's decentralization in a way that
wasn't able to provide yet and the the reason is because
the huge amount of fees that are being generated by these transactions is
Creating the condition where companies all over the world want to make that money
They want to mine bitcoin and
As those fees get juicer and juicer this early
Where it may not have happened for five or six years if we were just optimizing for specifically lightning open channels open closes and whatever else
The fact that it's happening right now early is is a is a positive force
to encourage people outside of the united states to mine
And the more hash power we have outside of the united states that's mining gambling transactions
The more likely it is that bitcoin's going to stay censorship resistant and even if you're on an offac list
You'll be able to get your transaction through
Brad if you allow me to sort of talk because udi actually doesn't know
sort of that aspect of it like bitcoin mining and and
Just the amount of money that they're making
And you know what the ramifications are in regards to some of the countries that you mentioned
I know brad knows this but i'm speaking to
You know i'm from you know, my family's from the caribbean and you know, where my where my family's from i've been meeting with the
Central bank governor and you know, I have my counterpart that's been meeting with the prime minister trying to orange pull the country
and and one of the major factors in us
Being able to pull this through would be bringing in mining bitcoin mining companies and just the amount of money that bitcoin miners have
Made recently has made our
Discussions a lot easier and udi you have no idea and a lot of people that are in ordinals have no idea
Just the the effects that they're having
Um in orange pilling, you know nations in the caribbean and maybe other nations and you know
And so, you know, thank you, you know now, you know
And the funny thing is too that like even though ocean
carrying this mantle of filtering the spam they have actually provided three block templates that
Completely allow the hashers to become miners again, and that was the big problem that mining pools have centralized
Hashpower because the block the hashers don't actually help construct the blocks and choose the transactions
And therefore like the pools become a censorship risk factor and the more it concentrates in the united states
The bigger the problem gets but ocean might end up being
Like the best place to mine ordinals transactions and brc 20 shit because you can put your hash power at ocean and mine
You know whatever block template you want like they let you build whatever block template you want. You can prioritize
ordinals transactions and like put your hash power towards ocean and and like
This is the most impressive mental gymnastics i've ever seen in my life. I
Really hats off. I want to go quickly to go-go because she's been waiting patiently for a long time and then to naveen
And after that to satashi enjoy her who's in the audience with a wizard hat
relationship with ordinals
Really wanted nothing to do with this
Because I was a lot like brad. I thought it was a bunch of spam and why were we?
Choose to use this new technology
To put a bunch of scribble scrabble
But i've come full circle over the course of a year
to just really embrace it and um
brad, I think uh some of what you said, um
like when we're practicing here to
Inscriptions to actually just make more
Of a use case for what we can do with bitcoin
And see how it works out with high traffic and and what the fees look like and
transaction times and all of that like
Why not practice with like the goofiest simplest things that don't take up a lot of block space or
Are not that expensive to inscribe?
Centuries from now the aliens look down at our blockchain and see that it's a bunch of scribble scrabble
Um that we first chose to inscribe on this blockchain to test it out. Um
Like it wouldn't make sense to say hey, we're gonna test out this new technology and let's do it with the mona lisa first
I'm interested in the opcat
Conversation, but i'm also interested
in the indexer conversation
Of how we move forward because that has a lot to do
Part of bitcoin scales and how many people?
adopt it or welcome it if they're
The puritan side and they're starting to warm up to ordinals as a use case for testing bitcoin
When we look at the like two
kind of overly generalized sides of the conversation whether it's
Puritan or monetary maximalist versus platform maximalist
I just think we need to like keep in mind that I think we are
getting to the point where bitcoin can and should be used
In these cases, they don't have a stable currency in their nations
But in other countries in africa where they don't have a stable
nationwide currency they use bitcoin
Most manageable way to pay for services goods everything else and it works
And I don't think we here in the western world
Should be so afraid of testing that out
Um, I think we should be scaling quickly towards and be excited to move towards
Using bitcoin to pay for coffee pay for gas
We as a culture who celebrates bitcoin invests in bitcoin are too
Um tethered to the notion that it's a store of value
related back to the dollar
Like untether bitcoin from that existence the more we can
That's that's where I stand with it
Can uh, can I just like push back real quick on this monetary maximalist platform maximalist like language is triggering me
because like the reason that I think like I i'm bullish on the platform
Is because bitcoin is the best money like yeah
Because it's the money that we want to use the platform for other David. I don't use that language
Anyway, this is the first space where I heard it
Well, so i'll just say the the platform maximalists they are monetary maximalists. That's why they're platform maximalists
That's like what's just it's uh, well David, you know what's going on here really like it's uh
The use of the word maximalist is just completely out of place
People who think that bitcoin can be a useful platform are not in any way
That's just uh, the problem is I think the the actual laser eye maximalist the actual
Insane cultists in the laser eye side. Uh, they're so used to the word maximalist
They think they need to use it to describe everything in the world. Whereas people who are ordinals and joyers
Are not maximalist about their opinions about orinals in any way shape or form
Uh, they actually a lot of them are
Uh into a lot of different cryptocurrencies, too
And they got into bitcoin after experiencing other cryptocurrencies, but they're like hey, uh, actually bitcoin is really cool
For one reason because it's cool for orinals
But also they learned through that experience that it's a great store value and it's it's it's a great money
And it's a great way to save over time
And they discovered all those things about bitcoin not through a lens of maximalism at all
There's not a maximalist bone in their body
I feel like the the the laser eye toxic maximize just
But people do not have to be maximalists at all
Most people are not the vast majority of people are not but
holders are not maximalists of any way you're speaking for david though david it
No, david is david is i think david is very dedicated to bitcoin to nothing else
I'm just i'm just saying that most people that you would meet an encounter in the
You you literally think though that people that
Contribute to the discussion of of like
Like dedicate their lives basically to
The thankless this mostly thankless work of of bitcoin development
Are not platform maximalists
What are you even talking about who's dedicating lives here?
Orderals have existed for a year
No, i'm not talking about ordinals
I'm not talking about ordinals
Go ahead. Jimmy. Can I can I push back because you know gogo mentioned
You know what was going on in africa and the need for you know, a hard currency or hard money in africa
And I sort of want to push back on this idea that
People over there need bitcoin to make nominal transactions with this I with this furthest from the truth
I lived in you know gogo. I lived in nigeria for three years. I had a business out there
I was working with a global network called airtel
There is no use for like bitcoin for like nominal transactions or like small transactions
People that use bitcoin are usually very
You know internet native or technology native scammers
That's they call them piyahu boys
And they made a lot of money and they move a lot of money and they all use possible
And that's funny by the way that that type of scam that type of scam is highly supported by laser. I'm actually that's
Kenya is an example of a of a country
Over there that uses bitcoin. I wasn't saying all of africa jimmy. I wasn't making a generalization
No, but this is oh this is always because
It's like sort of like a larp people would be like, oh, what about the peasants?
You know, they can't use bitcoins in this high fee environment
But it's like if you're a peasant and you know bitcoin is at least your concern
You got five dollar like you have a five dollar net worth like
You don't even are you saying are you saying bitcoin's only for nigerian princes?
Yes, you know, he emailed me yesterday pretty much transfer transfer a million dollars for him. Yeah
I want to go since we're talking about peasants. I want to go to naveen
Your resident peasant here i'm i'm a proud
I I always think this conversation is really kind of funny because
You know, we're we're talking about uh decentralized permissionless system and then we're getting mad
Um at how certain people choose to use the system
And I always just thought that was kind of like a really funny thing
I I think it's obviously perfectly okay for people to have their opinions
On how other people live their lives?
Um, you know we're human beings. Everybody kind of does that it's like oh, well
You know you like fucking pizza. Well, fuck you pizza's bad for you
Um, you shouldn't eat pizza
Well, okay, you know like whatever i'm gonna i'm gonna do what i'm gonna do and that's kind of the power of the system
That's the power of bitcoin to me is
It's a permissionless decentralized system if if I want to you know, pay
BTC for a single satoshi that has a teenage mutant ninja turtle
Whatever like that's my decision to make
Like I I have the power to do that because
That's how the system works
And so to me that's like one of the core beauties of bitcoin is that it is permissionless
It is a decentralized system
And it allows people to do what they want to do on the system and I guarantee you
There will be other things that people come up with with this remarkable system and that's like the fucking cool part of it
You know, it's a time machine and it's timeless all at the same time
And i'm here for it. I am fucking here for it. I'm all about it. Bring it
Bring the next thing bring the next use of block space
Bring the next thing that's going to convince people to pay more for you know, the security model for bitcoin
You know like on one hand we're having a conversation about you know
What happens when the block reward falls off a cliff and on the other hand we get mad
When people jenny up cool things to do on chain that drive up the transaction fees and it's like well, okay
So I personally I always think these conversations are really kind of humorous
Because the whole nature of the system is that it's a permissionless system
And so damn it man, if I want to have a you know, an svg of a turtle
inscribed on a single satoshi
We're gonna go to satashi and joyer and then to violina and then to winter hey, what's up everybody?
Um, hello. I'm a little bit in a in a quantum state
I'm like here and not here. So
Uh, a lot of the conversation I might have missed. Uh, but there's a few things I wanted to say
The parts that I heard was uh, like splitting the camps and monetary maximalism and like platform maximalism
Um, I don't i'm not sure exactly what platform maximum is but to me
I always tell myself as a bitcoin. Well, it goes back to the federal reserve when the federal reserve
Decided to raise interest wait, sure. Sure. You can you can um,
Well, I if you just ask rock it'll tell you keep going
so I always considered myself a bitcoin monetary maximalist and i've used other chains because of that because I wanted to like collect more bitcoin
And I went and learned everything about other chains because bitcoin was important to me
It was I was a monetary maximalist of bitcoin
To me the end goal was to get more bitcoin
That is why I learned about other chains and use them was to get more bitcoin
Um, and as far as like when I hear platform maximalist, I hear is like hey
I would rather do do stuff on bitcoin because I feel like it would grow the ecosystem of bitcoin more
Than uh growing the ecosystem of its alternative network
That kind of ties into being like you can't really be a platform maximalist without being
A monetary maximalist because the reason why you're a platform maximalist is because you care about the monetary aspect of it
Otherwise like you know, what's the point?
Just think that's that's the accurate and we already had this kind of discussion
But just think about it like a spectrum on one end you have people who prioritize the top of
Like the thing that they prioritize the most is the monetary maximalism and the thing on the other end of the spectrum
I think if you are a maximalist
Right there's different ways to reach the monetary maximalist and I think platform maximalist or you know, the idea of
You know building stuff on bitcoin with bitcoin can help right because monetary like money itself
If it has a network effect and by it being used as money, that's what reinforces it like to be money, right?
It's the most saleable good. So if it is the most saleable good, then it is the money
So if it is a yeah, it's like bitcoin like financial activists or monetary maximalists
Are building circular economies in the real world and platform maximalists that also value bitcoin as money
Obviously are building circle circular economies digitally, right? So if you know if you still want to make like
If you still want to like you really want to put them into two different camps
I would say that the one camp is just
Like I would just say that they're they they either don't understand bitcoin or they're blind to how bitcoin truly works
And it could be because of like their previous hate towards certain things that happened in crypto
And because of that they're like they double down and then they double down and when they double down the ego goes up too much
So it's very hard to be honest when like your ego is going up and you just have to keep continue doubling down
And where it's just like you're not being honest or you very you really don't understand like certain
Key functions to how this network works. So I think that's kind of like where the divide is
And it I think it could be shown through a lot of things like the the like the spam
Thing or you know ocean mining and I can give an example like
Like a lightning channel right on chain. It's just a specific type of bitcoin transaction
The base layer doesn't know you have channels, you know on a different network
And like a sub graph of something going on over there. It just knows you just made a certain transaction, right?
But you have a consensus something that's external to the base layer that you're agreeing upon that
Hey, this type of specific transaction
It means something to me outside of the base layer of bitcoin
It means something to me in a different place and an ordinals transaction is exactly that
It's a specific type of transaction on the base layer. That means something to you outside of what the base layer says
Right same thing with a specific psbt of that, right?
So why would one be spam and another one not?
They're all just you know specific type of bitcoin transactions
That means something to certain people and don't mean something to somebody else especially with like, you know with tap script now
Lightning channels can be indistinguishable and you know with other other things like this
um, so that's from one point of view and another thing I wanted to add as far as the
The straddling v2 of hashers picking their own
Black template i'm not mistaken
They still have to send the block template to the mining pool and the mining pool is the one that broadcasts it
Otherwise they can just add their own
Um, uh, basically the payout to the to the subsidy to themselves
so I think ultimately the mining pool is the one still that has to uh approve this block template, right, but
Hashers are in the business of maximizing profit, right because they're paying
Um, they they're providing a resource
The resource is hash rate and they're paying for that hash rate through either electricity or opportunity costs, right?
And they want to maximize as much profit as possible. So
In this in their business to have the most profitable template like stop point right there
Because if there's a template that's less than the most profitable
Then anybody using that template that's even a little bit less than the most profitable will eventually get priced out
Because the people that are using the most profitable template
They're going to have more money and as the difficulty goes up, they're not going to have to shut off
So in the long run you have to absolutely use the most
Template. Otherwise, it just doesn't work and that's how mining works
It's not by being altruistic because if you're being altruistic, you're just going to get priced out
And if you think altruism works, then you know, then you don't even need mining at all, right?
You just altruistically have a have a google sheets and just spread, you know spread your transfers over there altruistically, right?
Yeah, it has to be so the the idea like mostly agree with all that stuff. It's just the the
Sure. Yeah, so where would you say I'm mistaken?
It's just not the altruism is not it's not altruism. It's time preference. It's a perception of time preference
So some people value I could reuse I could use any example where you use the word altruism
And I could reframe it using exactly what you just said
And then you just define a way I think it is
It's just it's just time preference like some people prioritize short-term profits
So where would you say that the the time preference of profits changes so where it's um, I don't know
Let's say block template or you know, like the including certain transactions or not
Where do you think the time preference changes?
I think it really is a just a difference of and clearly the market is showing that the time the preference is that people
Like miners don't either believe or care
What the transaction has in it. They just want the bitcoin and
That's kind of the reality of the situation
I think that the time preference is important for miners. Why because
They can't they have mine if they they have they have infrastructure that is an investment, right?
They can't only care about the money. They're just going to make today
They have to care about the long-term viability of their um, uh, you know, you know, it's funny though
I spoke to I spoke to a large miner
about about eight months ago about completely something unrelated to
It kind of shocked me that this large miner
That they're not really interested in all the bitcoin stuff
They're like, they're not they don't really they're not really they're like, they're not really interested in the bitcoin money
Conversation they just are a business and they just want to make money like that was literally and I was like, whoa
There's a large miner that doesn't care
very weird right, but their mining hardware is an investment and
Bitcoin the asset performing well in the long run right because then their mining hardware is not going to be worthless tomorrow
Right. Sure. They care about the profits today and they don't care about they don't really understand let's say right
They don't really fully understand the the like the you know
The the nature of the revolutionary part of bitcoin as a monetary asset
They don't understand that they understand from the business side point. Hey, I can provide hash rate
I can build this infrastructure and I can make money right and that's what they want to do and to them the money is dollars
But if they realize that the longevity of bitcoin is what's going to get them more dollars
Then they will be interested in making sure their hash their you know
Their mining equipment is still valuable in a year in five years and ten years, right?
Because it is an investment. They don't want that investment to to be worthless
Even if they make more today, they want to continue to make more right?
So I think that as bitcoin adoption grows and and and its adoption can grow in in various ways, right?
It can grow with more users and these users could be ordinals enjoyers or any other type of users, right?
That that reinforces the monetary aspect of it that makes it a more saleable good
That that creates more adoption for bitcoin and that is the long the long time preference of miners
So it's in their best interest as a long-time preference miner to want as much
um, uh different diverse usage and
black space demand and the amount of users and platforms being built and um,
Other chains like uh, like, uh, you know two-way peg side chains and they want bitcoins to continue to grow
And like through all different various ways if they care about the long-term if we're talking about the long-term type of miners, right?
now the miners that don't care is
People that for example want to create their own block template. They're more of a short-term view because
In that short-term view they might make profit today, but in the long run they have to use the most profitable template
So if they really care about the long-term
This is this is just like
It's kind of like a longer debate and a different like kind of divergent view of the bitcoin, you know
World so I don't know if it's productive
Yeah, but this is what I mean that if you really start looking at it
You start to realize that people that double down they just fully don't understand what's going on
And we're just we're just in the territory of our own opinions at this point and like i'd like to stick with just like
Reality, like the reality is it doesn't matter what we think about this. It's the reality is miners
Like are mining this stuff and they're making shitloads of money
And then this demand for this is not stopping like that's
Their only relevant thing to talk about really at this point. I think people I think people
Real quickly. I think people just kind of behave like whether they're still stuck in 2008
And they behave that way with their money
in bitcoin and wherever else
Or whether they've moved past 2008
I don't want to not have that conversation
I just think it's like it's like a more nuanced longer conversation. It's just two people talking about it
Yeah, I get it in depth and it can take many many hours and you have to have
Both sides to really explain their point of view to you know, to be honest, right?
You don't want to feel like we moved away from the original topic, which is
Brad realizing that was right
And uh, it's a little unfortunate that we moved away from this topic
It was like the the the reason we started the space
Yeah, I don't even know anymore if I think udhi was right
I think udhi is wrong. I came to the realization in the last 10 minutes udhi's wrong. I got a very new tweet
Yeah, oh by the way, you know what? Uh, I actually have a really good question for you
And we'll do that after violeta because she had her raised she had her raised her hand for a long time
But I have a great question for you after that
Oh, can I just add one more point before or is it enough for me? Absolutely not. Okay. All right. All right
Hey guys, uh, hey udhi brad
Everyone, thanks so much for hosting. I want to uh, kind of double down on the fact that udhi is right
And um, yeah, and i'll tell you why from my perspective right and i'm i'm just an artist i'm not
A really technical person at all and i'm gonna say something that you know
Maybe maybe the artists on the stage will will resonate. I hope so
At least witters go go. Um, there's some people also regarding the whole conversation like
Financial maximalists and you know the currency maximalists or the platform whatever there's some people in the world that are
maximalists of neither of those things I consider myself
Um an art maximalist like that's that I go where art goes
and uh nine months ago, I realized that art was going to bitcoin
And i'm i'm an artist like and I first came to blockchain in general because I realized that that's where art music in my case
so I really think you know udhi is right because
Because whatever whatever
Your individual goal may be or whatever your individual
You know achievement may be
Um, it all brings it back to one thing right bitcoin like this is this is what we all want
So whatever brings us there ultimately, I don't care what brings brad there what brings witters or naveen there
I don't care. I know that we're all going to meet there eventually at the end
When udhi explained it at first, um
He realized that you know jpegs can create communities that go beyond you know, just being financially
An enthusiast about financial systems. I couldn't care less about money. Otherwise, I wouldn't be an artist
I swear to god like I had never made any money for 10 years
Because I didn't care enough about money. I cared about art more
Um, and so that that's why i'm here. I think that's a beautiful thing. I think art moves cultures
and in a in a stronger way than money a lot of the times
And so yeah, that's just my take from someone who never really cared about money never really cared about platforms
I'm not even on spotify because I hate them and that's like the best platform for musicians
But they're the worst in my opinion the way they operate so I don't care about money
I don't care about platforms. I care about art and that's why i'm here and I think that's a good enough reason
So that's that's all I wanted to say
You know, I agree with you so much I was right, uh, so that's a very good point, uh that you made I
I uh, I do have a curveball for brad though. Um
A moment i'm not being sarcastic now i'm being serious. So you made this post today this morning
And and of course the title of the post was I realized the duty was right great title and
Two things happened a lot of ordinals people saw it and seemed to have been
Excited about your revelations about ordinals, but also
There's been a lot of criticism towards you
Based on that post. At least that's what i've seen. Can you tell us a bit about that in?
Uh, why do you think that is that people
Go after you when you voice a different opinion
The you know, the reality is that there's a there's a common meme in bitcoin
Um stay humble stack sats
And stay humble stack cats
I'm not gonna stack cats. You can't i'm gonna stack sats
That isn't just like a random comment like that is
The folly of most people is in bitcoin through the history of bitcoin most people
They get rid of bitcoin they they
Taint their view of what bitcoin is
And it's the stupidest thing like nassim talib
Sold as bitcoin because of what some mean bitcoiner said to him like that's so dumb
To have understood what bitcoin is and own it and then let mean words
Sell your bitcoin for you like that. It's like when your ego gets too big
In bitcoin and you think that like what other bitcoin owners
Say means the bitcoin is no good
That's like mike hern and you know roger ver and all these people that they got too big
No, jeremy rubin. Not I don't think jeremy rubin sold as
Bitcoin because of mean things people said to him. He probably just stopped volunteering to
Yeah, why would he keep volunteering to make bitcoin code? He probably still owns bitcoin
I imagine because he's not his ego is not huge. That's the thing like jeremy rubin
The ego test of like the final boss of bitcoin is not the central bankers. It's yourself
It's your own ego. Like if you can't pass that so deep brad
And I I am irrelevant to bitcoin and I know that so I don't that's the second correct thing that you said today
Yeah, I mean like people shouldn't look at me. I what my suits doesn't even fit me
You know, I look like a homeless person. Like why would you care about what I say about bitcoin?
I feel like a lot of people they build their ego up too big and then they get hurt
When people get mad at them and call them a scammer and all this stuff and it's just like
You know don't trust verify
Slay your heroes and all that stuff stay humble sack cats all of those
Things that we say. Yeah, so people just it's it's just like whatever you're gonna piss people off and any
Anything you say that's controversial online like you just expect it
Um, I I kind of agree with that do you think um from the other point of view though, do you think that it's uh
Healthy to be on the hating side
Because here's what I here's what i'm going going
I think for a lot of people
I think they would reach the same conclusion as you
Uh, whereas they don't necessarily like animals. They don't necessarily want to participate. They don't necessarily think that
So they would agree on a lot of those things
But they also would come to the conclusion that world's are here to stay they're probably not going anywhere
Uh that they have some systematic or systemic benefits, uh to bitcoin
Uh that there's no reason to fight them
Um, so I think people could reach that conclusion
Of what bitcoin is and and and and will do and and and to the point that if someone
Says the opposite that they're going to try to cancel them. So I guess what i'm saying is
I'm not the reason I asked you this question was not for you to tell us how you feel about it
Oh, did it make you feel sad and and lonely? Uh in your opinions, it was more about
Do you think that there's a way for uh
You know for bitcoiners to move away
From being so upset and triggered so that they can better themselves so they can have a better perception of the world and
And i'd be upset when people use bitcoin and
Do you think we can get there?
I don't I don't think that the um good vibes
Thing is any different than the toxic, you know sleigh, you know if you find no, but that's not what i'm saying
I'm not talking about like good. I'm not talking about good versus bad vibes. I'm talking about it's the same energy
Like if you're if no, I think I maybe so maybe it wasn't clear
The dark energy of maybe it wasn't clear. Look you personally
Uh, you probably would agree with this you personally
Were upset with the ordinals movement for a while and I would say that in my view
Uh might have caused you some discomfort
Dissatisfaction. Yes, which is unnecessary. You could have you could have at the same time you could have just been happy
Early because you got the least of it udi us on clubhouse. We got most of it. Jimmy got all of it
I mean look I so i'm like saying i'm saying like wouldn't be wouldn't be nicer if you have spent those months being happy
Instead of being upset and that's what that's the real question i'm asking here not like are people going to be nice to each other
I don't know. Well, that's why I muted. I'm asking like
I muted the word. Yeah, and maybe people should do that. Maybe that solves the problem
But but i'm serious though
Like do you think that we can get to a state where?
uh bet winners on twitter
are just not so dissatisfied all the time and they're just happy with uh
With you because there's a lot of things to be happy about, you know, I don't know if you've noticed like they've I mean
This is something we've waited for for a decade
Bitcoin price is pretty high considered compared to I was in the last 12 months
There's a ton of new people using bitcoin now a lot of great things to be happy about it
This way sir there you you have to follow the same advice that I gave myself and followed
You have to mute the people that are triggering you into having this
Oh, but i'm known to have blocked half of bitcoin tour. I do that all the time
But why are you so focused on what other bitcoiners say and think no i'm not i'm trying to help
I'm trying to help i'm sure I i'm detecting a mental health issue and i'm trying to better people's lives
I've i've already taken them. I've already taken them out of my life
I'll just say brad. It's pretty annoying when you when you tweet something and you have a hundred people come in your
comments and just drop profanities and and disgusting stuff that you know, uh my kids or
You know my nieces see and read. I mean it's pretty it's pretty obnoxious
And you know, I feel like how do you get into that situation? You get like tiny children. How are they reading that?
Well, I like my nieces are older but like my my daughter's five years old. She's like sees me on twitter
She goes daddy. What's that? And it's like some you know
There you go. Here's an image of a job
Why are you showing her that shit, man?
I'm on i'm on my twitter on my you have it displayed on the public the public tv or something like
Just hold your phone closer to your face. David. I don't know what to tell you man. Okay. Well, all right
So anyway, the point is is like, you know, these people who leave these comments like, you know
They would never in real life if they came across someone who said hey, yeah, I own ethereum
They would never say a fraction of the fucking shit that they say on twitter to that person's face. Would you own ethereum?
Well, I don't know ethereum but i'm just you know if I did you know, so
You're looking over your shoulder right now David
Exactly. So the like they would never say they would never say that shit
That's not a way to represent themselves personally. It's not a way to build friends. It's not a way to to develop
Like any sort of I don't know
um moral standing in your community, especially for a group of people that so are so concerned about everyone's
Morality and yet, you know, they're gonna hold themselves to a completely different standard online than they would in person
And so I don't think any of that shit helps bitcoin. I actually think think it hurts bitcoin
I think there's a lot of examples you can point to of it pushing people away from bitcoin
You know the whole argument that no one can change bitcoin and your opinion doesn't matter about bitcoin
Yet i'm gonna sit here and scream at you over twitter and shove it down your fucking throat on
Non-stop and and build my identity around trying to shove it down your throat
Is is not helpful. Well, why do you care about what those people are doing? Aren't you just mute because
Well, it's a lot of people it's a it's a lot of people I mean that's ultimately like you're fire somebody to hell
You're somebody to manage your account. I blocked those people
I blocked like 30 people 40 people and and it cut it down 90 percent, which is pretty pretty absurd
If you don't like if you find look the life hack is if you find one word that triggers you a lot
Put it in your mute list and then you remove that from your input
Yeah, but I guess the the general culture that's being developed in our in our industry of uh, i'm a
Uh, low iq pleb, you know, I think I think it was like jack who said like stop
Um stop thinking for yourself. Is that what he does that what he said? He's like, you know, uh
It like sounds like like lower iq and like, you know, you need to remind me of those stories where it's like, um
Like don't do your own research like doing your own research is how you become like alt right or something like that
Like oh, that's how you become a ripple holder
They want to dumb down the community. They want to celebrate
Stupidity they want to weaponize these people who don't even understand how bitcoin works
And then they want to they want to uh send them like dogs
uh to go attack people that are utilizing bitcoin in a way that they don't like that they can't control and
Honestly, it's fucked up. And when you like think about it in like a zoomed out vert like like version of what's going on here
Like fucking abusive by a couple people in the community david. I have a cheat code for you
That's a special cheat code. Just remember this put in your bio
My pronouns are they them not another white yellow belt max. He would ever say anything negative to you ever again
Hey david, why don't we have a boxing match?
Between you know, like these people and like, you know everyday happy go lucky like i'm just gonna use the system
No, look first off first off. They can't afford a ticket second off. They wouldn't show up
So, you know wait david look this is hilarious because this you're you got the same exact like beta kuk energy that these yellow belt maxes have about
About filtering your transactions like you're complaining that this is a family friendly tourism
You can dude you can just mute those people and just not think about them
Just choose not to think about them and like everybody should just choose
To mute stuff that triggers them and not think about them and and who cares like if it's bothering you just remove that from your life
Yeah, I mean dude, I can't remove it from my life entirely like the example I go on these spaces
There's probably somebody in here right now who's recording me
And everything I say and then what they're gonna do or eclipse it they're gonna cut up the the audio bites
And then they're gonna go and tag people that i'm in business with or people that I interact with
And then they're gonna they're gonna miss contort what I say
They're gonna tag them and they're gonna upload some audio clip of three seconds of the talk
That's because you're a celebrity you were you're successful exactly like well, I know but but okay
But yeah, especially if you're putting yourself in the middle of controversial conversations, of course, what do you expect?
I'm trying to say that that behavior is not you're making shit loads of money
And you're very successful. Of course people are going to be jealous and
Imagine if you were an nft founder david like this is nothing
Nothing. Well, to be fair david dude, he does have a solid argument
It's just unfortunate that he does get treated the way he does like to be objectively speaking. It's it's actually
Udi gets treated like that
Who has a voice against the status quo gets treated like that and you bring about the law of attraction
Hey, hey brad as soon as you say these things that you said as soon as you say udi's right like three more times
It's like there's like red rum in the mirror as soon as you say that three more times
Uh, you will have the exact same dynamic. You'll have the exact same thing. I know I know that
Obviously if I say something controversial then i'm gonna get
Controversial replies back to me. That's why you have so much heartburn about having to cut out of the closet saying that udi
Is it was right? I didn't have any heartburn. What are you talking about bro?
Don't even don't even start that
Like last week I had we were on clubhouse talking about this and some of the guys in clubhouse were like
You know udi is maybe one of the most influential people in bitcoin right now
And I was like, what are you talking about because I had udi muted for a long time
I wasn't paying attention
And you know the same way that like, you know, hitler was man of the year in 1933. How did we get to that brad? Like how?
You talk about filters all the time
Just kidding but you know
influential in that, you know, whatever influencing influencing culture and influencing people whatever not like the best thing for bitcoin or whatever but like
I I noodled on it a little bit. I just take inputs in and
You know, I didn't have heartburn saying
Bro, i'm i'm in i'm in different
Chats and group chats with people that act like their interest in ordinals is like they're transporting jews and nazi germany
Like like that like it's like hush hush underground underground railroads
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait everyone be quiet. We're gonna listen to
Satashi enjoy right now because he said that he thinks udi's right go ahead
Yeah, so I think udi's right back on topic because here's a perfect example
Um a wallet a famous wallet. Um, I don't know brad mills. Do you know about this barrel wallet?
It's a great wallet by the way. Um, it's a popular
Yeah, yeah, a lot of bitcoiners use it and open source and you know, it's very powerful. It has a lot of tools and um
Really really powerful tools by the way. Um, I think I think it's a great wallet
So they added something that I feel like was really really important that they didn't have
Which is um to be able to
Choose the order of your input and your output seems like a very basic function
That you know for such a powerful wallet. It should have that because it's just a basic function
Um, so I I asked them to make this request like a year ago and a whole bunch of people were like against it
And even though you know by default it like randomizes the order and and I think it's good by default
It should you know, but you should be able to choose your order if you really want to right?
Um, and I proposed that I told them that they should do that and you know
Most people were kind of against it. Some people were for it, but today was added
um in the in the update and a lot of people were like, oh I hate ordinals like
F-n ordinals those spammers
Like this is actually a really good thing for for the wallet itself has nothing even like, you know
Yeah, sure ordinals users can can utilize, you know an additional feature from sparrow
But this is an additional feature for everybody like
What's the what's like is it really necessary to be so negative and upset for?
A really famous bitcoin wallet adding a really simple feature that should have been there like like why not be happy about that, right?
I think what he's right. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Like I didn't hear anything about that
I think there might be a little bit of a problem with all of us that are so focused on a certain topic that like we're in
We're in echo chambers and we have biases and we like have cognitive dissonance
And of course when someone's attacking you
You're going to be focused on that and like blow it up to be bigger than it actually is
like it's none of this stuff actually is that big that you know, like
it's everything is amplified on twitter and
emotions run hot and stuff, but like
That's why there's a block button and a mute button and a mute list and like, you know
The ability to put your phone down and shit like
We control our inputs. So if something's triggering us, like we just got to control those inputs
That's just the way to think about it
Yeah, I was just surprised I was like, you know because
Sparrow wallet is not spamming anything, you know
It's just people using bitcoin and like an additional, you know, like you should be happy for it. But um,
It's because they feel betrayed. They feel betrayed by sparrow wallet, which is you know, someone who they feel like is on their side
uh in this in this cultural war and um
Since sparrow wallet's a turncoat
Of you know responding to users wanting to use their app
They're going to be extra extra pissed about it
But I think that made a really good point
When he said that we should all managed our inputs and our outputs and it's true not just for bitcoin transactions
But just in general we should all be at all times thinking about all of our inputs and all of our outputs
And try to put them uh, try to put them to good use
So that we can make the world a better place so it can save as many cats as possible
We barely talked about cats in this store space. Um, even though they really are important and they really are
They can change the world in bitcoin
But yeah, I think if we all take the time to manage our inputs and manage our outputs
Just just a little bit of time doesn't need to take all of our entire day
Put a little bit of time and thought into that
Everything could be better for everyone. Um with that i'm gonna rock this space right now because
Uh, I I think it was a great great discussion. Uh, I really agree with a lot of the points especially
What people said about me being right? I thought that was a very very uh
Just you know great input and a great output
So that was very well managed
Um, uh brad, uh, thank you for uh being open-minded for stepping out of the closet this morning
Um, I highly recommend that everyone go and give brad a follow
Um, he's got very interesting takes you can also follow the other people on stage a lot of right people here
There's the quantum cats account. For example, you can follow that might have some alpha dropping tomorrow. You know, maybe maybe not. I don't know anyways
Thank you everyone, uh for being part of this. Uh, I think that um, it was a fun space
And that's it i'm gonna play us off
Uh, uh, get some sleep tonight get some sleep tonight. It's gonna be a busy day tomorrow
My uh, my playback thing is not working I wanted to play us off with some music
I got to me. Yeah, okay, maybe maybe
Is someone maybe jimmy and violetta can do like a duet
No, I guess not. All right. Well, I got it. I got it coming up right here for you. All right, let's go. All right
Yeah, thank you for coming out now, I mean bitcoin wizards we out here with udi, baby
You know what just for people who stayed that late, I mean I really appreciated that that everyone stayed here
To listen to all of this. So I have like a big big
Secret reveal i'm gonna drop right now
Big alpha people have been waiting for this
And you are like the most loyal fan, so i'm gonna just give it to you straight right now