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Bitcoin to $120k?! Crypto News Recap 🗞️
Recorded: July 10, 2023 Duration: 0:46:27Space Recording
Full Transcription
applications to just one that has been disapproved by them so you got to think they know the rules
the ins and the outs but we'll get into why it might not be so clear cut but i just want to play
what larry fink said in your guys's interview as well when it comes to that because he's still
hopeful that eventually this one will get across the finish line and blackrock will be able to do
what no one else in the u.s has been able to do take a listen really closely with our regulators
and we want to hear from the regulators what they what are their issues and how can can we fix those
issues around that so we hope that like in our in the past we could be working with our regulators
and get the filing approved one day and i don't i have no idea what that one day will be but um and
and so we'll see how that all plays out specifically on on bitcoin as i've said in the past um we're a
believer in digitization of of of products um you know etfs was a big revolution for the mutual fund
industry and it's really taking over the mutual fund industry and we do believe that if we can
create uh uh more tokenization of assets and securities and that's what bitcoin is uh it could
revolutionize again uh finance so i mean again he's saying we'll see how it all plays out here but
ellie i mean you've been covering this space for a really long time everyone's sitting there watching
and i think a lot of the bets now we've seen bitcoin up by about 20 i think since news of these filings
first came out i think some people are just saying look if anyone's gonna do it it's probably larry
fink and blackrock so why why take the risk why bet that they won't eventually figure this out but
we'll get into maybe why in a second but your thoughts on maybe how this all goes whether or
not it gets across the finish line i think it'll get there eventually whether it's blackrock
we don't know i do think that they probably have a pretty good edge i mean them being who they are
and their track record of like you said you know the amount of etf filings they have actually
had go across the finish line in the past but this is a whole new field right i mean this is the first
crypto related etf and it's such a confusing and polarizing time for the industry you know this
they could run into problems i mean this is not this is sort of they're they're forging a new path
right this is the first crypto uh etf they're going for so it could be different this time who
knows but you know we did see i think because they refiled right and a couple of the couple of the
other companies also refiled because the sec said that you know their their application didn't meet the
standards so i think already you're seeing that scrutiny and you're seeing the kind of the the sec
really saying all right we need to kind of get this right which is interesting because you know we've
seen them push off anything to do with crypto and kind of you know dismiss it especially especially
gary gensler for the better part of two years but then when when the black rocks come in and the
wisdom trees come in they say okay well we got to get into more detail here we need all this from you
so just the fact that they're sort of playing ball now as well that is you know also very telling that
perhaps the sec is now thinking okay well you know these institutions want it and how maybe we can do
something to make it work and it could take a long time i'm sure it probably will take a long time
but uh if anyone's going to do it i think black rock has a very very good chance of becoming the
first but you know is that necessarily a great thing i mean you've got other companies you've got
like the grayscales who want to do a bitcoin spot etf who have been around who've kind of been trying to
do it the right way and not that you know kind of black rock just they they kind of just jumped in
and were like all right we're going to do it it's kind of like well all right well you guys are such a
big player it makes sense but then like what about these little guys who are really trying to
do something for the industry as well so it's kind of a you know there's there's positives and there's
there's sort of negatives here as well yeah almost as as as is the case with almost every story you can
look at in crypto there's always a bit of the pros and cons two sides to each coin and i think you
know to your point on what's really going on within the sec that's that's kind of again where we were
focused last week with our exclusive with sec commissioner esther purse aka crypto mom and that is
what's fascinating because ellie i was going back and looking at my my interview with her two years
ago on yahoo finance it's yahoo finance and it's funny to think about how much has changed and how
much is almost exactly the same when you think about what the sec is saying in regards to we got
to regulate this we got to be smart about this and still back then it was questions around bitcoin
spot etfs and the idea of who's going to get there first that was right when all these applications
first came in now we've seen more than three dozen uh you know denied over these two years and now
we're chatting with esther purse again about the black rock one and i think it's fascinating to think
about what she's able to say because again same disclaimer not really able to get into specifics
on some of this stuff but here's what she told us because it's really interesting when you parse the
words to maybe give us a clue on how optimistic she is that eventually something will get across the line
because she's basically for months been saying look this isn't a fair ball game the way that sec is
playing this one here's what she told us take a listen what what i have said in the past and i
continue to believe to be the case the standards we've been applying with respect to bitcoin exchange
traded products have been as you put it a moving target and also not consistent with how we've treated
similar products and so i don't know how you get out of that analysis that we've that we've engaged in
thus far to get to a point where you're approving um a bitcoin exchange traded product but again i i each
each application comes in and we consider it on its own facts and circumstances its own merits so
um we'll see what happens but again i've been quite discouraged by the um what i would describe as
crypto or bitcoin specific standard that we're that we're applying here so that was kind of i mean
again she's she's crypto mom she's going to say these things because she has a lot of problems with
the way that gary gensler has been running the sec but i do think it is fascinating to think about one
of the five commissioners at the sec calling out this idea that there's one standard for everything
else and now a new standard for bitcoin that that seems relatively unfair and not being applied in the
same way what's what's your general reaction to that just kind of given i guess what we've seen
play out publicly when it comes to the sec stance on bitcoin etfs yeah i think she's making a point
she's made before right not necessarily maybe in so many words i think that was great that you got
that from her in that interview you know we really made some headlines there you know but she's been
dissenting on all kinds of things you know crypto related with the sec for a while now right we know
she's pro crypto we know she's kind of anti gary super crazy crackdown and you know i'm not surprised
by her words but at the same time yeah i mean you've got one sec commissioner who is really kind
of gung-ho about this industry and especially when it comes to bitcoin and the spot etfs right she sees
sort of the double standard like it's moving target like you said you know it's from one day to the
next it's really not the same but then you know kind of playing the opposite side of that as well
you know we've seen all these regulators sort of go through a learning process too i think you know
it's not the same as it was five years ago when the uh the ico boom happened then the nft boom happened
like it was still very much kind of a niche industry where i think you know sort of regulators thought
all right well this is sort of a sideline thing you know there's interest in it but is it really like a
top priority and now you see it really is becoming a top priority and i think all the more uh so
because these institutions are now getting in and it's funny that that is really the catalyst right
for regulators i mean unsurprisingly it's government but for regulators to say all right let's take this
seriously now because we've got black rocks we've got wisdom trees we've got jp morgans who want to
get in on this but but they say we want to protect the retail investor or we want to protect all
investors really is their is their you know kind of their mission um but you know so so will a bitcoin
spot etf get approved eventually i think so because what people want and eventually you know
the sec in real in realist like real life they they represent the people and the interest of the
people and protecting them how is that going to play out um we're not sure obviously we're going to have
to see but the you know it's it's a positive that you know she is is so on board with it and then you
know we're not going to have the same commissioners in the same chair forever we'll have to see
kind of how the how the election goes but you know it's not going to be this sort of i don't think
anyway this sort of just attack on it from an sec commissioner standpoint for you know the
foreseeable future anyway i mean what's going to change at some point yeah it does seem like it is
it is getting to that point and i don't know increasingly combative maybe perhaps to hear some
of these things and again a reminder if you are listening to space right now just to tap the bottom
right corner button there to throw a like to throw a retweet on the space and also to request the mic to
come up here and ask a couple questions of ellie and myself if you are listening and curious to learn a
little bit more about this stuff what it's like covering it behind the scenes uh because ellie in
our in our hester purse interview that was the other thing that i really threw out there as props to you
and asking about uh this collusion if you want to call it that maybe the idea of all these government
agencies working together to bring down crypto you got a lot of people saying how much were all these
agencies involved in bringing down signature and silvergate all these crypto banks of course we've heard
from gary gensler before overstating the idea of crypto's role in those bank collapses earlier this
year we asked commissioner purse about that and she didn't want to speculate on on you know how much
collusion there may be but she did point out exactly what you i think have recovered uh reported on
rather over the last few months is this idea of democrats really digging in saying that what the sec
and gary gensler is doing is right not really taking any uh dissent around that and the idea that you
know again there are liberties to defend here in the united states when it comes to allowing people
to experiment with some of this technology and it was fascinating to maybe you know she didn't say
that there's collusion in taking down all these companies but she was hinting at exactly what you
reported the idea of maybe the government is working together to really press the issue
that don't touch crypto is generally the top down from the biden inspiration message coming
through to everybody yeah and i think she's very forthcoming in the way that she can be obviously
she can't say too much but yeah i think i think everybody has sort of that that feel now right
from what it looks like you know back in march right we saw the banks those three banks fall we saw
signature and uh and uh what's the other one silicon valley and what was the other one
it was all it was all a blur man everything happened all next to each other you had silicon
valley bank you had signature you had silver gate they all started with an s and they all went bust
that's the other one i know it was like all the s's um yeah so i mean you saw those those three fall
and then sort of coordinated what looked like sort of a coordinated effort from you know everybody
from the top down saying crypto is bad it's the reason these banks failed and you know we really
need to keep it uh under reins and under wraps now however you see more interest from iq i'll keep
bringing it up you keep seeing more interest from these institutions and it's sort of changing right
so now maybe crypto is sort of more of a priority than it was before we wanted to tamp it down we
wanted to sort of make it like this thing that only kind of government can have a say in and then now
you see these big institutions coming in and are they working together i don't know but it's
interesting that you know she kind of gave credence to that notion i think you know everybody's
thinking it can as you know is it true is it necessarily true is everybody saying it no but
it'll be yeah it's it's quite interesting to hear i i agree it was you know especially given like how
how how tight every word that you say as an sec commissioner has watched i mean there's not a
lot of liberty to take so any little thing that you can read there it's almost like reading the fed
statement every time it's just like going through and seeing like what word changed what's really
going on here so i don't know it's a little spicy for the underlying uh intention behind the words
exactly exactly are you winking at me right now what exactly is going on here um but no that was
it's always it's always interesting to dig into all that and then i guess if we back up right again
and we look at what's really going on for the crypto space writ large with some of that going
back and forth and coin shares is always out with their inflow reports i think that this one's
interesting to kind of highlight when we look at bitcoin as a price where it goes you had the big
price call from standard chartered looking at 120 000 by the end of 2024 given all of this adoption
that we've seen from mainstream traditional finance companies and you know we've seen bold
calls before so i don't know if i should give too much credence to 120k price target uh ellie i don't
know where you fall on that but it has been interesting to see inflow start to pick up according
to coin shares you had basically the amount of money flowing into bitcoin product investment products
over the last couple weeks wiping out nine weeks of negative outflows so you know it does seem like
the tide is turning here at least for bitcoin ethereum though still negative over uh in terms of net
flows on the year when it comes to investors putting money where their mouth is i don't know
i mean do you get the sense you you cover this just as much as i do do you get the sense that
we're finally seeing tides start to turn out of i mean price would already dictate yes but
institutionally yep yep i think i think that's a i was listening to a space this morning and they
kind of went around the horn and said is who is bullish and who is bearish and i want to say only
one person was said i'm pretty bearish on bitcoin still i think we haven't seen the lows i think we've
done all kind of a long way to go we haven't seen the bottom yet but most everybody else was saying
i'm completely bearish oh sorry bullish and i think this is only kind of up from here i think all the
activity that we've seen the in those the interest the headlines around bitcoin um i guess what i
always charlie my boss always said it's like a flight to quality right like bitcoin is the sort
of the original crypto it's the one that everybody talks about it's the one that has the most value
well whether it will hit 120 000 by next year i don't know i've heard like you said so many
bull cases for you know it's going to hit a million or it's going to hit 100 000 and
you know does it does it ever get there has it gotten there has those predictions come true yet
no we saw i think the high was 69 70 000 right in november of 21 so you know that's that's definitely
not an unrealistic target i think you know 2024 a lot can happen in a year and i'm already
it's so it's like i can't believe this year is when we're already in july like i don't know where
2023 is gone so you know if we've gone up like this much since you know like early this year
it would make i mean we could go up more definitely and you know keep the headlines coming
keep the sort of positive sentiment around spot etfs and and more institutional uh flavor for it and
yeah i think anything's possible i'm seeing i'm seeing a few requests come in here on the space so
reminder for anybody who wants to come up on stage with eleanor and myself request the mic here but
elliot to your point i don't necessarily want to play devil's advocate but i will this time around it's
not too early on a monday to do so i think you know when you look at the overhang i don't know
if you've been watching this this whole back and forth play out with gemini dcg three arrows capital
the idea of this like little weird circular debt orgy situation going on with the bankruptcies and
stuff and trying to figure out who exactly owes what and what clawbacks look like it doesn't look
good whenever you look at that and the numbers and the idea of the winklevoss twins going after barry
silver and what actually happens because we had that cascading dominoes that still kind of needs
to be it's been unwound to a certain extent but where those bankruptcy cases go how much money gets
returned to people like me who are sitting here still on block by losses waiting to see what the
hell happens here i mean all of that stuff still overhanging i'm not entirely sure it's all entirely
flushed out yet um and what might happen once the shoe drops and people realize oh you know maybe i'm
not as good as i thought i was when those like dollars that i thought were there aren't really
there anymore yeah and then you've got the lawsuits as well right you've got the coin bases the gray
scales the ripples we saw that outcomes from all of those obviously ripple is it's probably a little
bit further ahead definitely a lot further ahead than coinbase and uh and the others just simply
because they've been going for longer yeah um but obviously that you know the question whether those
things are priced in or not you know is there is there any you know is there any more price action
to come because of that i think a lot of people's uh feeling is that those lawsuits and kind of the
outcome potential outcome of those are priced into to i guess to the market but we'll see um i think
like you're right there's a lot of other potential wrenches in the works to come you know like you put
all the fallout from from uh from grayscale from dcg from the from gemini from i guess like
everything all the all the all the enforcement cases that garrigan's has brought this year i mean
there's nothing really that there's no sort of end in sight for any of them at least this year it's
going to drag on for a little bit longer so it will you know will it have a crazy uh uh thing on
the price will have a crazy move on the price i don't know we'll have to see but yeah it's it's
definitely possible on that ripple one i i feel like you know we left things off we went to the uk
we were all sitting here thinking about what's going to happen with these him and ducks what's going to do
what's going to happen in that case now and now that you're back i gotta ask you about the updates
there because it's so hard to track all this stuff and i know that you have you know that's
your bread and butter i don't know what the new updates are in terms of timing or things that people
should be aware of in that case because you're right it sounds like it's been on the verge of
basically being answered for so long yep yep so that was sort of the last big major drop that we
had was the henman documents right right right before i went away and i think a lot of people
either took that to mean that you know this is a great great case for ripple because the judge
saw the potential for the you know ethereum free pass that the xrp holders talk about right that kind
of uh bill hinman talking to vitalik buterin being like hey like is this is ethereum a security or is it
not and having those conversations and then you know all of a sudden deeming ethereum is not a security
kind of conflict of interest there right like i always talk about conflicts of interest over
collusion or corruption because i'm not a lawyer like who am i to say that you know that is like
100 illegal however you know it's definitely fishy and so i think you know those came out there was a
lot of takeaway from that um and that was sort of the last thing we had to do with the case really i
mean there's nothing nothing that's come out nothing that's been filed really i think there was one uh
one of the lawyers that the ripple lawyers put in her notice um i think there were two or three of
those that have put in their notice of you know leaving the case that's not necessarily an indication
that you know the case is over and done with that they won that they've lost just you know lawyers
move on to different they move to different firms uh all the time so it's not necessarily like an
indication so yeah there really hasn't been too much you know buzz around the case i think everybody
is just literally waiting for that summary judgment that we thought might come at the end of march
and then in june and now we're in july so you know is it going to drag out until the end of the
year maybe no one knows the only person that knows is judge torres and when she's ready to file we'll
know so that's just a waning game on the ripple front i'm afraid yeah it's some of that fatigue in
the case going on too and you're right you're not a lawyer i'm not a lawyer and yet i will be uh i will
be i guess moderating a debate between caitlin long and mike belchy about specifically what the right
things to do and some of these cases are not necessarily with the ripple case but on thursday
we've got a huge debate between caitlin long mike belchy about the right way to custody
crypto assets because of course we saw prime trust go down recently and what i think a 60 million
shortfall now facing their clients as well so we're going to debate what the right way to do some of
these things is with them and i will not be the lawyer deciding who wins but our nft holders will
be able to vote on that one to say who wins that debate because i think the crypto space has a lot of
questions still as you point out and whether they're answered in the court of law with a judge
or in the court of public opinion i think both of those are important to kind of move the space
forward so we're excited as coinage to be hosting that debate we brought up ufo as a speaker here if
you want to unmic and hit us up with your questions sir gm to you yes um uh thanks very much for
having me up uh i am not a native speaker of the english language so it might be uh taking me a little
bit longer and i cannot like that talk fast as you can but the thing is there's like two things
uh basically uh the whole crypto market is of course having a use case and um uh so it will
and you're talking very much american i'm i'm from europe um so uh it's just a part of the world
and uh you know this uh uh obituary of uh bitcoin stuff and it like died 700 times how many times
ever i don't know uh but uh so of course there will be 120k bitcoin uh maybe not at the end of
whatever year but at some time and it will outperform most of uh the current currencies that we know that
are like issued from nation states because this is just uh designed for this and then the other
thing is you were talking a lot about like i'm not a lawyer and stuff i'm also not a lawyer but you
you have these situations that this goes through processes of law and um uh mostly of these free nations
of the world if we think about but like the craziest space where like was going on it was uh china and
everything and um they like banned it like uh 10 times and and reopened it and whatever and they're not
even knowing what to do with it so this stuff will not die and we're not talking only bitcoin
we're talking crypto and uh so uh but my question to you would be uh really um as you're have been
talking about these recent events have you seen elon's uh uh um uh things on fox and he was on bbc as well
within the last week and um he he didn't really talk about crypto but uh uh in in in a way he did
without talking about it so um how do you think like how this world is going to develop because
cryptocurrency is a thing that has a use case in a new world that we are creating right now
yeah having stuff like ai and and and chat dbt and things like that are like going crazy and no one
really knows what's happening and people are putting uh rockets into space like uh twice a week
and uh so uh how how would you like uh get from this uh a current point uh to a longer run situation of
a future um uh how how would you like like do a prognosis into the future of course no financial
advice no yeah it's a good it's a good question i think it's a good question you're right no financial
advice here obviously don't don't don't throw any money in uh based off of what ellie and i have to
say uh unless you're smart uh in which case you know i would answer it as you know eleanor i'm not
sure if you agree with this but basically you know i've been watching this space since 2014 when
i first got into bitcoin and the idea of kind of where we are price-wise relative to then you know
i think back then bitcoin was like 350 bucks and the idea of how far it's now crossed back then it
was really just like i don't know libertarians who were talking about crypto and cyberpunks really
and how far it's crossed into not just you know the financial worlds but the cultural worlds now that
we've seen with nfts and everything else obviously i see that firsthand as a show that's basically
trying to tokenize itself uh and let our nft holders steer the ship and cone what we're building
with us but you know so much of this has now pushed the sec into a weird spot when you've got you know
collectibles can you really say collectibles are secure like there's so much that's been built and
you know to the question you have to appreciate it because so much i think we get lost in this idea
of looking through the u.s only lens around the world again they're kind of backed into a corner
because what are you going to do are you going to fall behind are you going to let everyone else own
this space and just basically give up or are you going to embrace it and i think that right now
it's it's essentially checkmate when you kind of extrapolate where we are in today's world
yeah yeah no i think you're right and and we do that a lot i feel like and especially in you know
crypto media we tend to focus obviously we focus on the u.s because most of the time it's
it is the more dramatic space we like to uh you know we have an sec that constantly makes headlines and
and regulators and congressmen and who constantly make headlines based on you know just trying to
get this thing off the ground here in this country but you know you look across these across the ocean
you look in europe you look in the uk they're so much further ahead with this technology and with this
uh space than than the u.s is and it's not something the u.s is used to right it's a we're a
financial powerhouse here at the best markets in the world but when it comes to cryptocurrency we are
just that like further that much further behind where it's like all right we do we do need to
catch up um you know i think you have ufo you brought up like uh people like musk coming on and
and and talking about cryptocurrency or kind of alluding to cryptocurrency and and we know that
he's a crypto guy right musk musk loves dogecoin he's you know he's a he's a proponent of the space
and i think that's important because you you need these leaders these sort of thought leaders and
and who better than musk you know ceo of twitter and tesla probably the best known
one of the best known people in the world for you know his entrepreneurism and being uh you know
just sort of a controversial figure in a way but but having that support and keeping the conversation
alive you know i think that's that's a big that's a big part of um sort of where we're gonna we're
gonna see crypto kind of really come out of the shadows i mean look at the look at the election
right you've got you've got democrats and republicans saying that they are you know accepting donations
in bitcoin we've got uh people saying that they don't want uh they don't want cbdcs but they want
crypto and bitcoin to to flourish so it's becoming so much more a part of the conversation and i think
that that the more that continues um the the more we'll see sort of more of an adoption right here in
the u.s but also just you know uh it'll it'll sort of run its course you know it'll it'll take off by
itself i think the more interest in it yeah and the idea of like debanking and and censoring people
right now is interesting just as you're coming back from the uk it's exploded into a huge issue
over there as nigel fair just talking about getting shut down and debanked and and the idea of you know
that as a weapon being applied to a bunch of people and debanking people if you don't like their
political opinions is something that i think you know have been floated here as an issue and
obviously we've seen that with choke point 2.0 um but that was one of the things that has to
also call that was the idea of congress stepping in now to essentially i don't want to say block what
the sec is trying to do and cracking down on crypto but by providing an alternative path might
actually help and she called on people again we pin this in in the space if you're listening but
she called on people to basically support that push and and applauded everyone who's been working to
to to kind of go at this a different way which is interesting as someone who's at the sec but i think
you're right i think in the broader global sphere what is the u.s doing and and how are we helping i
think right now it's happening across the pond as well as i'm sure you saw over there just the idea of
all these other jurisdictions saying all right if the u.s is going to be against it maybe we'll be
the ones to embrace it and that's been happening on the daily because why not i mean not every day
you get a chance to beat the u.s at something no it's true it's true it really doesn't happen all
that much and like see i don't know maybe the olympics track track we've done okay not as well as
we could um no but ellie i appreciate you coming on today i think you know that's those are all the
topics we really wanted to hit on today's show and of course i'd be remiss if i didn't express my
enthusiasm excitement that we will be able to hang on friday because coinage has a big exciting
spicy launch coming up uh for the ability for our nft holders to play trivia and we'll be playing
that with eleanor on friday uh very exciting and again a heartfelt welcome back eleanor for you to
be back stateside i hope it was relaxing because it's really hard to squeeze any vacation time in
in crypto as we talked about before but super stoked that you're back in the space and and covering it
again alongside myself we need more journalists like you out there so again thank you for coming on to
chat all this stuff with us today thank you zach always appreciate it see you next time all righty
thanks everybody for listening you can retweet the space if you liked it again coinage.media for
everything else we do here thanks again for listening and thanks ellie appreciate it
see you next time all righty
