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Bitcoin × Cardano: A New Era of Interoperability
Recorded: July 3, 2025 Duration: 1:46:33Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, key players in the crypto space explored the burgeoning interoperability between Bitcoin and Cardano, highlighting trends in partnerships, project launches, and growth opportunities in DeFi. The conversation underscored the importance of collaboration and innovative solutions to unlock Bitcoin liquidity for Cardano's ecosystem, paving the way for new yield-generating protocols and enhanced user experiences.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hello everyone!
Hopefully everyone is doing fine this wonderful Thursday.
Can you all hear me well?
Give a thumbs up if that's all, Gwell.
Thank you. So, welcome to today's space
where we'll explore the growing narrative of Bitcoin and Cardano interoperability,
exploring the boundaries of what's possible between these two ecosystems.
We're hosting this conversation because bridging Bitcoin and Cardano isn't just about transfers.
It's about unlocking new use cases, expanding DeFi access, and building trustless cross-chain systems.
That's why we've invited a great lineup of builders and innovators to share what they're working on and where they are
in the development and what's ahead. The space is part of our broader community engagement concept,
which includes roundtable talks, which are topic-driven discussions with diverse perspectives,
ensuring that the community can form their own opinion.
Cardano.org, where community members can contribute updates and projects can list their logos, gain visibility, and access builder tools and the developer showcase on developer.cardano.org.
And of course, we also have the developer Spotlights.
And of course, we also have the developer spotlights.
That is an interview-style blog that highlights projects and help them gain more visibility within and without the ecosystem.
We'll aim to keep this conversation around 90 minutes.
And we kindly ask all participants to engage respectfully, remembering that while approaches may differ, we share
the common goal of growing our ecosystems.
So let's get started.
Jacob, are you with me?
Hey, Denicio.
Yeah, I'm here.
Can you guys hear me all right?
me all right yes we can perfect uh thanks so much for the great introduction and welcome everyone to
Yes, we can.
Perfect.
today's space on bitcoin x cardano my name is jacob i'm the social media manager here at cardano
foundation and today we're joined by a lot of great projects a lot of builders who are proving
that collaboration between the cardano and the Bitcoin ecosystems is possible.
Whether it's L2s or smart wallets or DeFi toolings, these teams are creating real bridges across these ecosystems. So I thought it would be a great opportunity to kick things off with
a round of introductions from the projects themselves. But maybe before we do that,
someone here at the foundation, Pierre,
has really been instrumental in making this possible in working with these teams, reaching
out, coordination. So maybe we could hear a few words from Pierre.
Hi, everybody. Can you hear me?
Yeah.
Hi. Thanks, Jacob. And hey, everyone, I'm Pierre. I'm the ecosystem developer manager of the Cardano Foundation coming to you live from ECC in beautiful Cannes.
So yeah, the general idea behind organizing this space was that we wanted to get a quick pulse check on something that's quietly
gaining momentum which are the bridges and layer twos forming between two of the top 10 chains
bitcoin and cardano so these two chains as you know have very different dnas but we're seeing
a real movement deaths building connections the infrastructure evolving and new ideas flowing
between these two spaces. So it's still early, yes, but we're still still real progress.
And this could be the start of a more connected futures and interoperability for both ecosystems.
So let's get into it.
Thanks everybody for joining.
I hope you enjoy it.
And over to you, Jacob.
Thanks so much, Pierre.
And thanks also for all the work you've done in making this space possible and this collaboration
alive.
Okay.
So I'd say before we dive into the real details of the conversation,
let's make our audience familiar with the different projects that we have present here today.
So I'd say we can just start with a brief round of introductions, maybe limit it to about, I don't
know, a minute, two minutes, just your brief elevator pitch about what you're building and
why. I'd say we can just kind of work down the list here.
So maybe Bitcoin OS can start.
For sure. Thanks, guys.
Thanks for having us on today.
I'm Andrew.
I'm the senior content manager at Bitcoin OS.
And the mission of Bitcoin OS is to bring crypto home to Bitcoin and to unlock all
of the functionality that's been built out in the crypto landscape
for the Bitcoin blockchain and for Bitcoiners.
And our first technology that we're working on is a way to, a pioneering technology to
bring BTC trustlessly, cryptographically secured over to other blockchains, Cardano
first among them.
Awesome. Thank you there. That is a wonderful elevator pitch.
Jacob, over to you.
Yeah, maybe next we could hear from TAT protocol.
Yeah. Hi, I'm Benny from TAT protocol protocol uh thanks thanks for having us also fitzy is here um so
um yeah elevator pitch is basically um the opposite of uh what bitcoin os is doing so
we're bringing um basically cardano onto bitcoin uh with a meta protocol approach so uh we go full circle here.
Excellent.
Thank you so much.
On to Sundial protocol.
Looks like we don't have Sundial yet as a speaker.
Let's get him up here.
I wasn't aware that the speakers are limited to 10 slots.
I thought we had more than that.
So we might have to rearrange the speakers periodically.
Maybe next we could hear from Vesper wallet. Yeah, I'm here now, but we'll have Vesper go.
There's a little bit of a delay there.
I was actually wondering why SoundHell is not here
as a speaker as looking for them
as like their instrumental to display, but I'm happy to see them now here.
So yes, about Vesper, I'm Alex, I'm the founder and CEO of Vesper wallet.
We launched Vesper about two years ago, some would say pretty late to the game at the time,
because there was already quite a lot of competition.
But in just two short years, we became now the leading non-custodial
wallet on cardano and we're driving about half of all the user activity on the chain
our focus is pretty straightforward like we're looking to build the best application that serves
real users and it's not the developer focused it's focused to the people that just want to get their job done.
They don't want to deal with all the intricacies for crypto.
So now that we achieved such a massive feat in Cardano,
we're looking to do the same in Bitcoin next.
And that's exactly what we're focusing on at the moment.
Excellent. Thank you so much there, Vesper Wallet. On to Sundial. Are you with us? I am here, guys. Can you hear me all right?
Perfectly well. Go right ahead. Excellent. Well, it is a great honor to be here with all of you
guys with this very esteemed panel. A great privilege. So for those of you who don't know,
my name is Sheldon Hunt. I'm the
founder of Sundial Protocol, the one behind the account today. And yeah, so Sundial Protocol,
we are being oh so ambitious with the, I would dare say, the bright future that all UTXO chains
have in better being synced up with each other. So what we're looking to do is to take the
incredible work that has been done on the Cardano side,
all of these seven plus years,
and distill it into one of the first truly functional
like layer twos, working with Mateo and the guys
at Fluid Tokens and Phil from Anastasia Labs
and building out Sundial, which is this utility layer,
really like a chain abstraction layer
for all various DeFi functionality for
first Bitcoin, but then looking ahead to Litecoin and Dogecoin and everybody else. And so we're
working together with many of the other speakers here, obviously, the boss and, you know, the tap
protocol people. And so it's a great honor to be here. And yeah, the future is very bright. So yeah, keen to get into it.
Thanks so much for the introduction. Maybe next we could hear from Fluid Tokens.
Hello guys.
Nice to see you a lot of familiar faces.
Matteo here, I'm the CEO of Fluid Tokens.
Fluid Tokens is one of the main,
the FI ecosystem that we have on Cardano.
It is also the main one for staking tokens on Bitcoin. I'm proud to say that we were the first
project starting a narrative to connect Bitcoin and Cardano last year in January 2024. And recently
we announced and yesterday we also shared a tweet about our new architecture to build a trustless bridge that is finally fully trustless between the two chains, leveraging the properties that Cardano has.
Amazing. Thank you so much. And next looks like we have Mr. Guido representing Tokyo Pair.
mr guido uh representing tokyo pair yeah good morning uh um good afternoon good evening to
anyone listening um great to be on the panel um yeah super excited to be on the space um tokyo is
a multi-chain wallet um cardano uh bitcoin so runes Ordinals trading, about to launch SUI and currently building
on Ripple.
So yeah, a multi-chain product, which certainly has grew on the Cardano system and within
that ecosystem, but really is a strong believer in uh i suppose a borderless uh environment that allows
interoperability um for token trading on and off ramping cross-chain swaps between borders and
you know it's really um really great to be amongst such a steam builders um you know good to hear
sheldon here and you know a lot of old friends and looking forward to getting into um you know, good to hear Sheldon here and, you know, a lot of old friends and looking forward to getting into, you know, I suppose, operability layers from Cardano and introducing those to other chains.
Amazing. And welcome there, Mr. Guido.
Next up is Begin Wallet or is that Tim?
Will you be representing Begin Wallet?
No, it's myself,is here uh ceo welcome and founder of begin um
hey guys hey everyone yes so well begin uh it's a cardinal wallet but like our focus is more
on the user adoption uh bringing like utility reward use cases um we are also embracing Bitcoin
um for some time already and we also I think we we have one of the first wallets to have like
Bitcoin traded swaps inside of the wallet and, we are here to bring the best we can
for Bitcoin as well.
Thank you, Begin.
And great to have you also part of the space.
Next up is Turam with us.
Toram is not with us.
Okay.
Do we have BitLayer?
Are you with us?
Okay. Yeah, I believe actually i was talking about this before but i believe our bitlayer friends are
unable to come today because they actually are quite sick so they send their regards and they
apologize okay thank you there sheldon we hope course, everyone's well and wish them a speedy recovery.
Jacob, who do we have next?
Yeah, well, I think we've gone through everyone up on stage here.
I didn't realize that we were only limited to 10 speakers at a time,
which is somewhat unfortunate.
So maybe we could just kick off the discussion or Fitzy,
do you have something to say?
I was just going to say, I can't remember how many it works for,
but if you had an additional co-host,
it might give you another couple of spots potentially.
I know the more co-hosts you can have can potentially help the stage,
but apart from that, that's my only advice.
You bang on Fitzy, so add another co-host,
but otherwise suggest that the speakers just probably cycle out.
Okay, good.
That's really great information.
Let's get Pierre up here as a co-host in that case.
Perfect.
We've just sent Pierre another invite there.
Pierre, if you're with us.
That is really useful information. Okay, great. i'll send that invite over next week
for the tech support
good to hear your voice by the way fitzy you legend and you mate okay oh i know i know that
peer are excellent i think peer just accepted. Perfect. Can you guys hear me?
We can.
Cool.
Let's get right into it.
I think, Matteo, you posted yesterday
an interesting update regarding the bridges
and the status of your current solutions.
Do you want to expand a little bit on that?
Happily to do so.
So yesterday we actually posted a example of the transaction
that belongs to the bridge architecture
that we are building.
This transaction specifically belongs to the part
where we need to prove the Bitcoin state on Cardano.
And we use, I think, this new approach to leverage, of course, ZK, but it's completely permissionless and open to have this mechanic. This is the first step that you need to do anything about moving
Bitcoin back and forth from and to Cardano. So first of all, you need to prove or show
the state of Bitcoin on the Cardano side. And this is what we published yesterday. There
is much more regarding the bridge, but we are releasing slowly. You can expect additional transactions like this,
where we prove that we did that step in the next weeks.
And yeah, we are very positive.
We think by much before the end of the year,
we will have this bridge.
And it's currently being done by us at Free Tokens
and ZK Fold, which are experts in ZK technology
and can really speed up that part.
Thanks so much, Matteo.
Exciting times ahead.
Let's move on to TAP protocol.
I know who is running the account.
Is that you fit.
Yeah, so we developed, basically, we're basically done with the bridge from Cardano into Bitcoin.
We were super, super happy with the development process. Kudos um especially to the to the uh not only to the cardano but also to the icon team uh made that made that work uh pretty flawlessly and uh and
secure also and um we're going out yeah this is i know this is an overused word but soon we're
literally like finalizing uh the front end um there are a number of of wallets that we want to support so it's basically just about that
yeah and as soon as this is out the Cardano community is very welcome to
plan intended tap into into the Bitcoin ecosystem which is tap protocol part of
we made a few things based on based on pushing the boundaries of meta protocols possible,
and hope that people enjoy, and not only ADA itself, but also native tokens, can then find
a way to participate and directly in the infrastructure
that we actually built already that's available.
So looking forward to welcome everyone.
Thank you there, Fitz.
I'd love to hear also from BitcoinOS.
And I mean, obviously,
the whole conversation started really with you guys.
So it's very, very curious to hear, you know, where you are in your development progress.
Yes, for sure.
So at Bitcoin OS, we've been sort of leading this race in order to bring trust minimized or trustless BTC over to other blockchains using a really
a groundbreaking technology that was introduced in late 2023. So in late 2023 the BitVM white paper
was published and it essentially showed the world a new model for being able to verify CK proofs on Bitcoin, which is something
that people previously conceived of as impossible. Now, the way that it demonstrated it at the time
was like a really impractical model. But since then, there's been plenty of teams trying to work
on, say, optimizing that BitVM structure and trying to make a practical
way to verify ZK proofs on Bitcoin and therefore build one of the core use cases that people
have thought of building for Bitcoin if they could pull off this historic feat, which would
be to build a trustless Bitcoin bridge.
And so BitcoinOS has been leading that race. In July of 2024,
BitcoinOS verified the very first ZK proof on Bitcoin.
That was at the Bitcoin conference in 2024.
And ever since then, we've open sourced our technology
for verifying ZK proofs on Bitcoin called BitSnark.
BitSnark version 0.2 has been open sourced for months now and now um when it comes
to bringing btc over to cardano our progress has accelerated rapidly uh just over the course of the
past few months because what we've been working on uh in order to bring uh btc to cardano and utxo
chains in particular is a new special type of token standard called
CHARMS. And what CHARMS is, is you can think of it like a meta protocol, which it is for Bitcoin,
similar to ordinals and runes, except it has two very special features, which is that first,
the meta protocol is programmable. But second, and in particular, what's special about it in relationship to Cardano is that it's natively cross-chain.
And it allows for tokens that can exist not only on Bitcoin, but can also be ported or we like to say beamed over to any other UTXO-based chain without the need for bridges at all.
There is no wrapping involved in the process of moving a token from
one chain to the other. The real version of the token is actually just gone and it materializes
on the other chain. And so for us, we used this technology in combination with our BitSnark
technology meant to wrap BTC in a secure vault, in a cryptographically secure vault.
And we demoed what it would look like to bring BTC over the Cardano blockchain on May 4th, 2025.
And so, well, we demoed this in collaboration with Sundial and Handle.
And it made a big splash within the cardano
community and it got to show that for the first time we have technically bridgelessly brought a
token over from bitcoin to the cardinal blockchain and in this case it was a wrapped version of btc
that we called xbtc and that xbtc existed as a charm and so where we are now is we're still ironing out some details
of our wrapping mechanism to turn BTC into a charms token that can be beamed between any chain
and uh the other part of our development that's moving along very quickly is to allow charms
tokens such that when they land on cardano they don't exist as a meta protocol, but they'll land on Cardano as a CNT.
So that this is a meta protocol
that wallets and dApps and exchanges and whatnot
don't need to integrate directly in order to work.
But it's backwards compatible with the standard
that Cardano is already familiar with.
And so that's coming along rapidly.
And we expect, especially that part,
the backwards compatibility to be ready sometime by early q4 of this year
that's quite exciting sounds like you guys are making some really good progress
on your on your development um and so i know that vesper wallet is also in the process
of uh supporting bitcoin in the wallet.
And so I'd love to hear from you guys about how it's going, how the development process is going and where you foresee Vesper going in the future.
Well, yes.
So, of course, as I mentioned before uh expanding to bitcoin is our top priority at
the moment we're still doing a lot of work to improve vespa as a whole not just for bitcoin
but still does the focus at the moment uh the progress is actually going really really well
like we're really happy with how everything is turning out but of course as everyone knows by now, we always release everything once it's perfect.
So we're not necessarily in a huge rush to just
release something for the sake of releases.
But when we are ready to release it,
it's going to be massive.
Other than that, we will most likely
start showing some demos pretty soon.
So watch out for it.
It's going to be posted now at X account.
So yeah, make sure to follow us.
Wow, sounds exciting.
And I am definitely looking forward to that.
Next up, Sheldon, are you still with us?
We'd love to hear about your development progress.
Yes, absolutely.
So things have been really really exciting these
last couple of weeks and even like the last few months actually so uh yeah when it comes to like
the development side of things we're like really powering ahead with a number of like partners so
mateo and the guys from fluid tokens as i was mentioning before and obviously like phil on
anastasia labs with the midgard tech stack So they're on like the layer two tech.
We're cracking on.
We'll be getting ready for additional demos and then for the test net in the next couple of months.
And so we're making some really good progress there.
But that's just like one of the streams.
Obviously, as a Bitcoin and Cardano like hybrid layer two, there's a lot of things we need to be building simultaneously.
And so we're now looking to crack on with additional work around like nodes, but then also very importantly,
plans for our non-custodial Bitcoin staking. So for this, like we once again, get to stand on
the shoulders of giants and use so much of the wonderful Cardano tech that's been built up,
but then also look to what is kind of like best in class in the wider ecosystem. So looking to see
what has
been done quite successfully with say Babylon with their non-custodial staking. And so it's,
yeah, quite impressive. And we're looking to kind of get out there and fill what we believe is to
be a fairly big niche in the UTXO or Bitcoin space. Because obviously on the one hand,
there's the state channels. And you think of it, you know, like Hydra or the Lightning Network on Bitcoin.
And on the flip side, there is, as I mentioned before, Stax, Babylon.
And they do a lot of pretty cool stuff related to putting your Bitcoin to work.
But ultimately, when we think about Bitcoin, more than 97% of all Bitcoin is still idle.
Something less than 2% of Bitcoin is engaged
in any form of DeFi. And so the opportunity to put together a use case in the middle there to
unleash Bitcoin DeFi is gigantic. Of course, we'll never get all 90% or 99% or 100%. Got to be
realistic. But even just to get a few more percentages over into
Bitcoin DeFi powered with the rails of Cardano is going to be absolutely game changing. And so this
is something that we are so excited. And that's what we're laser focused on. We've been really
privileged to have been able to get out to a number of these major Bitcoin conferences,
which is at BTC Prague and in Vegas before that,
speaking with Adam Back and Michael Saylor and others.
And so there is a lot of appetite for what we're doing here.
And the future is really bright.
It's something that now kind of goes without saying that, like,
the biggest Bitcoiners in the world acknowledge that the next iterations,
the next trillion dollars that get added on to Bitcoin
are going to come through a large part through the work that all of us in this group are working on here to increase utility and adoption
of Bitcoin and help on board so many more people who really don't even understand the possibilities
of what Bitcoin could do for their lives. So it's an incredibly exciting time. And yeah,
the tech is coming together. The social elements are coming together. The partnerships are coming
together. So I'm incredibly excited. Realistically, we're probably going to be launching Sundial probably the start of next year, realistically, but I think that is going to be a-okay. So yeah, stay tuned for more updates. We've got so much more coming down the pipeline and yeah, can't wait to share more soon.
And yeah, can't wait to share more soon.
Amazing.
Thanks so much for sharing all those insights.
Sounds like you guys are making some really good progress.
Next, I'd like to hear from Begin Wallet.
So Begin is building kind of all-in-one crypto wallet,
self-custodial for both Cardano and Bitcoin.
We'd love to hear a little bit about your development progress.
We'd love to hear a little bit about your development progress.
Yeah, so we have been, well,
lately we have been focused more on the digital version of Begin that we just released
and was quite a chunk of work.
Now we have more time to introduce more features
and we are working closely with Mateo and food team to bring more
bitcoin features and be more integrated with the bitcoin ecosystem and of course we are open to
i would love to i know that there is a the toggle feature like everyone is working on is like the switch switching the bitcoinify creating the the region part so we
I think we have a lot of providers now meanwhile I mean we have a lot of projects working on this
front uh we are probably we we don't have a specific partner yet, but we're definitely going to work on this because it aligns with our philosophy to make the FI easy for everyone.
So, yeah, that's pretty much what I can say about that.
Amazing. Thanks so much for sharing.
Maybe next we can hear from steven
um from tokyo tokyo wallet which is also building a multi-chain smart wallet on both bitcoin and cardano yeah thanks a lot um uh look we uh launched up bitcoin Bitcoin in November last year.
We have runes and ordinals trading available
through the wallet, have had significant downloads
and getting some volume now, which is really great.
We are the preferred wallet on dot swap.
We have integrated with Sats Terminal,
which gives us runes, Dex, Magic Eden, and aggregates all of the Dexes over on Bitcoin.
We've also built on Sui, which gives us, we've integrated with Aftermath over there as a partner,
which really sees an environment where you can have multiple tokens, call it Warris,
doggone to moon, say, for example, on Bitcoin,
and Snek, for example, sitting in the same wallet environment
side by side and really creating a single portfolio view.
Look, you know, fortunate to have been a lot
of the Bitcoin conferences as well.
And, you know, I echo what Sheldon said.
If you look at, you know, what everyone is trying to do with or what I would call sort
of, you know, the magic kind of outcome is that, you know, most people sit with their
Bitcoin and watch, you know, market movements go up and down.
And I'm talking from, you know, either institutional'm talking from the institutional investors to mums and dads with their super funds.
They currently don't have options to provide yield for their Bitcoin assets.
We're working with some projects like EcoRover on SUI,
which gives us, I suppose, interoperability with other chains and allows us
to introduce staking protocols into Bitcoin. That's something that I think is a real driver
for the industry. Cardano always has had such great technology, but is not available to other chains. And if you look at introducing things like yield to Bitcoin holders via staking protocols
on Cardano, be it SUI or other projects or other ecosystems, I think that that is really
where we're going to see huge amounts of growth.
huge amounts of growth. And we are an interoperability player. I think it's really
And we are an interoperability player.
important to recognize that Bitcoin, it's square peg round hole scenario when it comes to Bitcoin.
We're doing things on Bitcoin now, and shout out to all the builders over on Bitcoin, and
particularly the layer twos or side chains.
If you look at projects like Arch or Middle or Stacks
or any of the projects over there,
they're all really trying to achieve the same thing,
which is to unlock all that volume and liquidity
that sits in Bitcoin and utilise the other chains.
And there's a lot of people that are trying to do that
in different ways, whether it be people like bitcoin os who are you know via charms and their and their
wrap tokens whether it be someone like garden finance who we're working with who uh you know
provide atomic swaps uh whether it be um you know like tap protocol for example who's using icp
like tap protocol for example who's using icp um and the compute you know the compute power
um you know or eco who's using compute um to you know i suppose unlock functionality for bitcoin
um i think that's where you know we really need to start to look because if we can unlock the
volume and liquidity um it's good for carlano um and it's it's it's great for um you
know for us to you know introduce users liquidities to other chains so um something that i think that
we all need to work towards because you know we often sit around chasing the same user pool of
traders we look at things very differently in that it's not about that it's
about introducing the next billion users um and they might be web 2 users who don't care whether
they're necessarily on on bitcoin or sui or carano or ripple or you know or tron or you know or avax
or any of the other chains it's they almost see it as kind of like an interoperability layer,
which means that, you know, you don't make a phone call to somebody
and say, did you call from Verizon or World Mobile Token?
And I think that's the future of crypto.
I think the future is that we have, you know,
different blockchains working seamlessly together
to create an environment which is really simple for users. And, you know, that'schains working seamlessly together to create an environment,
which is really simple for users.
And, you know, that's a real focus for Tokyo.
Amazing.
Thank you so much there, Stephen, for sharing and giving us this insight.
And you are perfectly right indeed.
I have a question for all of the panelists here today.
I mean, every project, it has its,
let's say here is tackling Bitcoin Cardano interoperability
in its own way.
But what is the key technical
or let's say user-facing advantage of your solution
compared to others, do you think?
And for that, I think, let's kick that off with Fluid.
Yes, absolutely. So our solution is layered. So, okay, we have the bridge underneath,
but then you need additional things that allow players from the Bitcoin side to actually interact
and use DeFi on the Cardano side, but Cardano can also be connected to other
chains so it can become the nexus for the Bitcoin user to access DeFi as a general.
But yes, so at the very base you have a bridge and this bridge must be fully trustless because
most of the players on the Bitcoin side require no compromise on the solution to use DeFi. And we've already seen it because
there are several projects, layer tools or other blockchains that try to bridge Bitcoin with
different solutions, but all of them require a kind of compromise in either it's a federation
of nodes that you need to trust, or it's a multi-signature or some similar mechanics and the
the bitcoin holders don't like don't like it and so we need a bridge that is fully trustless
where you basically don't need to trust anybody or at least where you can join every piece of
the bridge anytime to fix your basically if something doesn't work in in the way you want
you can basically join and fix it yourself so be independent also in the pegging and pegging out of
the bitcoin and then on top of it you need additional services and this is what we have
been working on fluid in the last year so first of all you need a bubble fees because a Bitcoin holder doesn't want to use
ADA necessarily and he arrives with his Bitcoin and needs to be able to do everything with his
own Bitcoin. And this simplifies the user experience, doesn't require them to find a way
or buy somewhere ADA or to manage it. It can also allow to completely abstract their wallets
so they don't have to switch wallet also if they don't want,
even if we have very good wallets in Cardano.
And lastly, we are building the new protocol of lending
in free tokens because when you bridge the Bitcoin
from Bitcoin to Cardano,
the BTC are finally on the
cardano side now you need uh to do something with them right because by themselves btc doesn't give
you any yield so to get the yield you probably don't need btc directly so you need to lock them
in a collateral and get a loan and with the principal, normally a stablecoin but also other stuff, you can get
access to the yield opportunities for at least the most common ones. And so this is a set of
components that need to behave, coordinate harmoniously and when you have these then
the user will be willing. So a safe bridge that is fully trustless and a user experience that is simple enough for
them will allow to have the volume and to bring those Bitcoin to Cardano.
Would you say that the Babel fees component, that that is kind of like, let's say, an advantage
of your solution compared to others?
Yes and no, in the sense that Babel fees, the protocol is called Aquarium, is already
live, is written on a smart contract that is open source on Cardano.
This is usable by everyone.
It's a common good for Cardano that we develop and that we are now integrating in wallets
and apps.
So anybody can actually use it.
But of course, being the authors of the protocol itself
for us is very easy to implement it directly into the flow but i really um instead you know
encourage everybody to actually implement it in their own solution because we need to make
the experience of the average user super simple without sacrificing the safety, of course.
And for a Bitcoin user, a lot of Bitcoin users are not really the five people necessarily.
So they don't really want an overhead of complex ways to pay the transaction fees and manage multiple UTXOs and stuff like this.
multiple UTXOs and stuff like this.
So we need to make it super simple without sacrificing the security.
So we need to make it super simple without sacrificing the security.
And the bubble fees of Aquarium is probably the major step from the user experience.
Yeah, thank you there.
Thank you, Matteo.
I'm going to look now at TAP protocol because, I mean, we've just heard, of course, that...
Let's see here.
Okay, we've heard your perspective,
but I do want to move on to Tab Protocol
with the same question.
What is the key technical
or let's say user-facing advantage
of your solution compared to others?
Yeah, for us, it's also multi-layered,
like it's for many.
So we have practical requirements.
So we literally build an entire infrastructure ecosystem on the Bitcoin side.
And our philosophy is with the TEP protocol itself,
and the guys that are sitting here,
they know what a hard task it is to deal with UTXOs.
So it's like really hard work. And we figured when a day comes, when people want to
put their BTC to work, there will also come in medium-sized, smaller projects that want to
basically take part in that Bitcoin narrative, right? And these people don't necessarily have the same scale of experience and all that.
So what the TAP protocol does is to abstract these difficulties away.
An expression of that is, for example, it's like literally the only meta protocol
where you can transfer tokens in one TX, right?
So I know Runes and Erkens and these, they can do that too,
but you give postage away, for example.
So how would you explain, you know, like a community that originated,
let's say from Solana, you know, if that's supposed to happen, right?
That they're giving like extra money away just to do a transfer or something, right?
So this is all solved.
And on top of that, within that infrastructure,
there are fast lane options
like HyperFan and HyperMall that exists already. And we want to bring, because that's what
TEP protocol allows, this interoperability aspect to basically together, we will see
part of the infrastructure that we'll see soon that ADA assets and ADA itself will be tradable with other assets that come from other chains, right, on Bitcoin, right?
And that should, given that we are all right about this, what's going to happen, add to the overall velocity, you know, when things like start to change hands between the different um
between the different chains right and it will also benefit um ada of course and um that literally
um that this whole package literally leads to a uh to to to simpler um user experience that
that people got used actually uh on other chains well. Are we there 100% yet?
No. Are we closer? A lot, like we were like a couple of years ago. However, the special thing
about the TAP protocol is simply it's being designed to allow what we call co-processing.
So we utilize other L1s to do basically the computations, right?
And not every chain is suitable for that.
There's, for example, if I'm allowed to say that ICP is one of the suitable ones,
but also Cardano.
So that means that in the not-so-far future, Cardano will act as a coprocessor
for the TAP protocol and thus allows us to do many more things,
especially when it comes to Cardano interoperability,
connectivity and things like that.
Awesome, thanks so much for sharing all that.
Maybe next let's hear from Vesper wallet.
What are some of your technical advantages,
maybe compared to some of the other wallets in the ecosystem?
I'd say it's in terms of technical advantages, the tech stack is one of them because we are using what's
called Flutter.
And this allows near native experience and performance
for our application,
which is unlike most of the other applications, which tends to be JavaScript based.
So by default, we can provide higher quality applications, but at the same time, we also still
have a cross platform way of writing our application. And what this means is that we still benefit from not having
to duplicate everything that we do like for each platform so that's definitely something that came
very very helpful and the choice of this particular technology behind Vesper also was a very big part
of how we got so successful today date but of course the technology is
not all it's also the people behind it so having great people that know how to use the technology
that the application is based on and know how to get the best out of it is also really really
important because in the end it doesn't matter what technology you use and what are your advantages
if you don't know how to capitalize on them and yeah i think we can do both of those and this is
why it's very exciting about what we're about to bring to bitcoin interesting so it sounds like
sounds like you found a way to kind of kill two birds with one stone, if I'm not mistaken.
Pretty much. It was a bit more complicated because, at least for the Cardano ecosystem,
the framework to use Cardano was non-existent for this technology that we picked,
non-existent for this technology that we picked,
which meant that we had to create our own.
As a matter of fact, we are open sourcing this as we speak,
so we're gonna bring a great benefit
to the Cardano ecosystem as a whole,
because we are opening for all the Cardano developers
the possibility to create applications
which are similar in performance
and experience with Vesper
wallet. Okay, thanks for that. It looks like Fitzy has his hand up now, so we can go over to him.
Yeah, it was just on the back of what Benny was saying, but you moved on. I didn't want to
unmute and be rude. But yeah, just in relation to what he was saying, I think the way that I would frame it as well, and kind
of in terms of a unique thing about tap is there's the bridging of assets, right? And the bridge goes
live very, very soon. It's fully finished. It's going obviously this month at some point. I don't
want to give you a date. Won't make that mistake. But as Benny said, it's soon. But that's kind of
the rails, the asset bridges. In terms of the air airways as well talking about this co-processing just to kind of shine a bit more light on that we're literally
saying that cardano developers when that goes live like it is currently on icp are going to be able
to integrate bitcoin assets within their apps leveraging the tap protocol as well so it's
assets via the railways and it's logic via theways, all via TAP, which is this kind of meta protocol on Bitcoin
that has also Ethereum bridge already
and Atron bridge already.
So it's multi-chain assets secured on Bitcoin
with full programmability.
So that's the way that I would phrase it
in a slightly different way to how Benny usually would.
Awesome.
Thanks for piggybacking on that and adding some supplementary details there that's always
helpful uh maybe next we could hear from begin on some of your maybe technical advantages over other
wallets sure i think like as basper said like for small teams we have to take advantage of
Like for small teams, we have to take advantage
of sharing components, sharing the code base,
to be able to build a multi-platform application.
So we are faster in that way.
That works for both.
We use a different tech stack,
but we are happy with that one.
I think what allows us, to be honest,
like we have the nature of capabilities of the devices, we can play around with that.
And I think we need to, as a team, we just need to be looking into like how to explore that and use in the better way to provide the best experience for the users.
in the better way to provide the best experience
for the users.
So I think we also are fast,
able to deliver quite a lot with a very small team we have.
So I think we are happy with the tech stack we have.
We know that we can improve that
and the improvements will happen very soon.
I think BeginV2 is a huge step for us.
It's basically a fresh start.
That's what you're calling internally.
So, yeah, that's pretty much it.
Thank you, BeginWallet.
I'm going to look now at Sundial.
The same question, basically.
I mean, everyone here is tackling the Bitcoin cardinal interoperability really in your own way.
And I'm just curious to learn from you guys,
what is your key or key technical user advantage over others
who are attempting to solve the same same problem yes yeah well so like well
thankfully basically we've got no competitors here in this particular room so we're among friends
and that's a great thing but no but so when we kind of like look out into kind of like the wider
space and the wider kind of like bitcoin layer two space in particular there are a few competitors
out there i would say we don't compete with, say, the Lightning Network, just like Sundial wouldn't compete with Hydra.
It wouldn't make sense.
They're apples and oranges.
But the most likely competitors, I guess you could point to, are perhaps Babylon and Stax.
They are primarily looking to do staking primarily first and foremost and then looking to build out an ecosystem over time later on.
And something similar even with, say, like Build on Bitcoin, Bob, Arch Network, Arch.
They're building on Solana, like using a Solana tech stack.
And then, yeah, CoreDAO, StarkNet. So there's a bunch of them, but we believe what we're doing with Sundial is quite unique in that by utilizing the, dare say, like the best in class features of Cardano now being battle tested for seven plus years,
there are things we can bring to the table that you can't get over on their side.
So just to kind of name drop a few different examples by what I mean by this is like you can do stateless executions on sundial you can
do deterministic outcomes right it's a big thing you don't have with EVM
isolated transla transaction logic we've got like parallel transactions it's
actually a lot easier to do zero knowledge proofs on UTXO chains like
Cardano as opposed to EVM.
So that's just kind of some of the built-in components
that makes the tech, I believe a lot easier
and a lot more attractive, certainly to Bitcoin users
because the UTXO component is something that is known
and secure, it's trusted.
But beyond that, I would dare say the secret sauce
of what Sundial represents going forward is partnerships.
It's a lot of the groups, the projects in this room now and many more around the world who have been partnering with us these last couple of months.
One of the major advantages we have being a Cardano layer two and the way we're structuring it is we get to inherit so much of the Cardano ecosystem.
So it means we've got a day one ecosystem.
And that's something that many of these other guys just can't say.
They've got to spend literally tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars
trying to build out an ecosystem.
It's a harder thing to do.
So we're coming from a different position.
It's a position of strength, I would dare say, for community and for DAPs.
But we're going to have our own problems as well.
Certainly, like marketing and awareness is going to be a big thing.
We've got to get over and get it out there into the world.
But it's a challenge very much keen to accept.
And so, yeah, it's an exciting time.
And so that's what I would dare say are our advantages.
But, yeah, it's a wonderful time.
Indeed, it's a wonderful time. Indeed, it's a wonderful time. And this question is just kind of designed to incite a bit of healthy collaboration or healthy
competition, I would say. I want to reiterate that we're all on the same team here. We all want
to see the same goals for this Cardano Bitcoin interoperability. And thank you all for what
you're building towards that
goal um so it's just coming to my attention that there might be some people in the audience who
are not really sure what we're talking about they maybe don't even know what interoperability is
so i was wondering if somebody could just give an explain like i'm five overview about what is Bitcoin Cardano interoperability?
What does this unlock and why are we building solutions working towards this?
Maybe Bitcoin OS could help us out with a little ELI 5.
Yeah, absolutely. five yeah absolutely so bitcoin uh interoperability or interoperability in general is about getting
different blockchains to be able to connect with one another and to be able to work with one another
this is especially important for bitcoin because bitcoin needs the help of other blockchains such
as cardano because bitcoin as as valuable as it is and as beloved as it is as widely held as the
asset is it's also the asset that arguably has some of the least functionality in all of crypto
it's old tech and in particular bitcoin is also not only is it old tech but it's tech that is
very rigid and it's not really willing to move uh the community is steadfast on keeping the protocol very stable and difficult to change so that there's no vectors of attack for the whole system to break.
This is kind of what's beloved about Bitcoin.
It's so decentralized that nobody can hardly change it and there's not really a lever anybody can pull to change it.
But that also means that it's not very upgradable.
It can't adapt to the times.
So a way to solve this is to let Bitcoin stay
Bitcoin, let it stay as stable as possible, but allow it to connect to other smarter, modern,
more flexible ecosystems that do offer a lot of that advanced functionality.
And so what we're trying to do, particularly in this space, is to build connections between Bitcoin and Cardano, because Cardano is very special because it's a smart contract chain that is the most similar to Bitcoin.
So Cardano, for one, it has smart contracts to begin with, which means it can access all of the DeFi functionality that we know has product market fit already. You can do decentralized exchange.
You can do decentralized lending.
You can have stable coins, et cetera, et cetera.
So you can have a truly decentralized on-chain economy that can complement, say, BTC,
which is a decentralized on-chain money that everybody loves to use.
And so that's what we're trying to do, say, at Bitcoin OS,
is we're trying to bring BTC over to
the Cardano blockchain in the most secure way possible. Beyond that, Cardano is also similar
to Bitcoin in that the community has a very long-term orientation. The blockchain itself
is also UTXO-based. A lot of the values between these two communities, even though they might
like bicker and fight about like really granular things, if you zoom out a little bit, you realize
the values of these two communities are actually quite similar. And everybody's nitpicking about
just like splitting hairs over little details about, you know, is your proof of stake mechanism
better? Is Bitcoin's proof of work mechanism better? And this can all just kind of fall by
the wayside if you can just connect the two ecosystems
and let people use whichever blockchain they want with whatever assets they like at any time.
And the smoother we can make that connection for end users, the better it's going to be
because people will be able to get the best of both worlds.
They'll be able to access the reliability and the liquidity of BTC, the asset,
which everybody loves to hold, and the functionality
of the Cardinal blockchain. Thank you so much for that. That was, I think, really helpful for some
people in the audience to just kind of understand the bigger picture here. And it kind of dawned on
me that we maybe should have opened with such an easy to understand context. So thanks so much for that.
Does anyone else have any notes on that?
Just some kind of bigger picture ideas,
bigger picture thinking, maybe Fitzy?
Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of the themes,
when we have these conversations and anybody listening,
if it's the first time you listen to like a, you know,
Bitcoin, Cardano, Bitcoin, any other chain,
kind of interoperability space, it is good to have that kind of, you know, Bitcoin, Cardano, Bitcoin, any other chain kind of interoperability space.
It is good to have that kind of grounding of what are we even talking about?
And I think let's make it more visual, right?
Bitcoin is an ecosystem of $2.1 trillion, right, at the moment.
And the problem was is that it's not very, it cannot express itself from a developer perspective.
If you want to build apps like you have on all the other chains that just work, there's no complexity.
They're all smart contracts naturally.
As you were saying a second ago, sorry, I forgot your name.
It doesn't have that.
So the game has been, the challenge has been all these hundreds of companies that are trying to do Bitcoin programmability and interoperability. It's how do we find the most trust minimized way
to give those assets the ability to be utilized for that liquidity to be grabbed and for builders
from other ecosystems to come and take some of that pie, right? To build a company that might
be a billion dollar company, a multi-billiondollar company. And one of the ways to do that is to say, okay, you can have a project that brings your
assets to Bitcoin and then starts to take some of the users from there, get their money, come and
spend it on what you're building, right? And with an asset bridge, we can go back and forth between
these two chains. So it's kind of like a tunnel. Or, and this is one of the things that tap was literally built for
from the ground up it's a bitcoin native protocol it is literally built on bitcoin and enables the
manipulation and movement and management of bitcoin assets directly on bitcoin but this
co-processing thing when i talk about interoperability it just means that those assets do not have to go
into any multi-sigs there are no bridges there is no off-chain processing there is no l2
all of those things are literally not necessary you can just use the smart contracts that the
cardano devs are already using or icp or solana or, another L1 chain here. And they can plug those smart contracts into all those apps into TAP protocol to leverage those Bitcoin assets,
get that Bitcoin liquidity, but you still have that level of security where your assets aren't having to go
and be taken into somebody else's custody.
So that is the unique proposition of TAP.
And in terms of interoperability, there are many different ways to do it. It's why I keep mentioning asset bridges is one way, and the logic interoperability by using the apps to control logic from the smart contracts from another chain to control those assets is just saying that there's dual levels to that interoperability, and TAP offers both.
levels to that interoperability and tap off as both. Thank you there, Fitz. And this is really
a very interesting topic, but also one that is needed to be discussed because, I mean,
this is really for the other panelists here. How does your bridge approach security and trust
minimalization? I mean, you just mentioned that, Fitz, that trust minimalization, and I do want to
touch on that as well. And for the others, are you using, let's say, zero knowledge proof, optimistic roll-ups, or other mechanisms?
And, of course, I do want to know how confident are you in the resilience of your system?
Matteo, who has your hands up.
Sure, go right ahead.
Yeah, happy to answer that because we spent a lot of hours thinking
about this stuff for the last year almost year and a half so basically yes so the problem as we
already said is that on the bitcoin side the technology is very old you cannot prove any
zero knowledge uh proof you cannot verify any zero knowledge proof on the bitcoin side
there are some attempts but natively you cannot do it the most used and implemented so far a
framework to do that is called bitvm right and there are one version one version two versus three
and also custom versions by different projects.
All of these variations at the moment suffer of three main limitations.
The first one is that you need to trust a set of a committee,
so a set of nodes that needs to keep the locking of your BTC.
They could, of course, get hacked or collude to actually unlock those BTC. The second issue is liveness.
BitGM works in a way where the people that can move and unlock this Bitcoin are chosen
at the very beginning of the process.
So after two, three years, you need to have those same players still online, available and benevolent,
which is something that you cannot really expect the more you go forward in the years.
So after 10 years, probably the same players are not there anymore.
And the last issue that all BTC and Flavor still have is that if you lock 10 BTC to peg in on Cardano,
for example, or any other layer two or other chain, you
need to unlock exactly 10 BTC at the end to peg out.
So even if you lose one Satoshi or something very small, you don't have the whole number
anymore and you cannot unlock the original Bitcoin that are locked.
These are the three pain points that BitVM itself as a framework has.
And this is what we were basically able to avoid completely,
leverage the fact that on the other side we have Cardano and not any Layer 2
and not any other blockchain.
So Cardano has some specific properties.
The first one is to be a UTXO chain.
And the second one is to be a UTXO chain and the second one is to be a proper decentralized
layer one that allows us to basically remove the part that is painful and that has limitations
and leverage the Cardano ability to replace it completely without adding any security assumption.
And the problem with BitVM is that to solve those three big painful
problems you need changes to bitcoin itself so the the bitcoin ledger needs to be changed you
need to add new op codes so new scripting functionalities and these things are not going
to happen anytime soon in the bitcoin ecosystem because they have been in discussion since
2019 at least, and there is no foreseeable future where they are going to add them.
So we need to play with the tools we have now.
And Cardano is very lucky because by its own properties, we can actually have a bridge
that is trustless and not even trust minimized.
I'm not saying one out of n trust assumption.
I'm saying completely trustless, where the user that begins the money, the BTC,
can do the whole process by itself if he wants.
And also, he can also peg out by himself if he wants.
So this is the strong point that makes our bridge worse to be built. Otherwise,
of course, we don't need to do that because any bridge that works, we will be happy to see it
and to adopt it. We are just trying to contribute with our research and of our multi-year on Bitcoin
to try to understand how to do it in the safest way. Awesome, sounds like you're
really, let's say, confident
of the solution that you're building.
I saw
that BeginWallet wanted to respond to this
or did you have something to share
based on the question?
No, actually no.
Just to say that I have a hard stop
here and thank you very much for the invite.
Awesome talk.
Just brilliant minds here.
So we need to go.
Sorry about that.
Thanks so much for joining.
Cheers, guys.
Bye.
Cheers.
Interestingly, while Mateo is sharing, I noticed that Zondial, you seem to agree with certain stuff, things that Mateo shared.
Why is that?
Do you share indeed that, let's say, the limitations about trusting those no's and the liveliness that Mateo shared?
Do you agree with that?
Or is there a different take that you share?
No, like, well, so, yeah, well, it's a good question.
I would actually, for the most part, yeah, agree with a lot, a lot of what Mateo was
saying, because I've actually, you know, having spent quite a bit of time out in the
various Bitcoin spaces and having met with a lot of the old guard, I guess you could say,
there isn't much enthusiasm for updates and upgrades to Bitcoin itself. And so it does mean
that there are going to be some limitations to what is viable. And so I'm specifically referring
to in this particular case, like OPCAT, we see all the resistance resistance even just with like op return so for those of you who
are kind of listening in and kind of confused by what this all means these are just kind of like
uh their community proposals to make certain upgrades to bitcoin's mainnet and it requires
normally a bit of like a soft fork um and for like return, it's a fairly, I would dare say like uncontroversial
like take just to kind of improve some of the functionality of Bitcoin. OP cat is a little bit
more substantial in that it is looking to increase in some ways the capabilities of what could be
done within Bitcoin. But for a lot of the old guard that I was mentioning, they are quite resistant to this.
And it means that there are going to be certain things that are going to be quite prohibitive to
do on Bitcoin. There's no, you can certainly go for it. You can certainly try. And like,
what's really amazing is just seeing all of the incredible teams that are building out on Bitcoin,
but they essentially have to hack it.
You've got to hack Bitcoin to give it some expressiveness and some functionality. And some teams are doing a great job at that. So things like TAP protocol and many, many others,
but it's not an easy thing to do. And then you've got a number of other layer twos elsewhere in the
wider space. And I think of like the guys with StarkNet,
awesome team, great like developers, but a lot of what they are looking to build out
is going to require more or less the need to have OPCAT be implemented on Bitcoin.
And until that happens, a lot of these guys are going to be facing
somewhat like dead ends technologically. I think they'll find a way, but right now there are
enormous advantages that we have on the Cardano side
that I don't think many other people appreciate.
And so Mateo was kind of going in on that.
And so in full agreement on like the points he was raising.
So we've got to make the most of the technological innovation
that has been made on the Cardano.
The smart design decisions that were done early days. I think probably some of those design decisions, they didn't even think
that it would come to be as useful as it is now. But it is quite a remarkable thing that we need
to treasure and really build upon. So yeah, no real air between or space between our positions,
Mateo and myself. And there is, yeah, a lot of
disagreements in the wider Bitcoin space, but it's all for, I think, the good of the whole ecosystem.
And yeah, in chaos, we find progress. So we're getting there.
Thank you, Sheldon. Sundial.
I think it's time really to open up the space for the wide audience.
If you have a question that you'd like to ask to one of the speakers here,
who's building a Cardano blockchain interoperable solution,
please feel free to come up to the stage and pose your question.
We're happy to have you.
Okay. I do have a question, guys, because in terms of, let's say, interoperability between bridges um of course with the multiple bridge solutions
that's being developed do you guys foresee any efforts towards a kind of a standardization
or cross compatibility
now i believe that we're headed towards that i mean uh you you can in theory like have recursiveness
there right like like literally we can in theory go from one bridge to another bridge that bridge
bridge as that bridge that back back and forth right and then nobody knows in the end anymore
where stuff came from right um i believe at least for some major players um there will actually be some
efforts at least yeah to achieve that um uh that you have an interability interoperability standard
at least yeah that that allows uh communication at least between bridges so just to just having
the feature yeah you know like to prevent certain things from happening, like this recursive bridging, could actually be really helpful.
Yeah, thank you.
I see here that the United Cardano student has his hands up,
but I do want to first give the stage to Bitcoin OS.
Bitcoin OS, I think you wanted to respond directly to that question.
Please go ahead. Yeah, I think you wanted to respond directly to that question.
Please go ahead. Yeah, I think one of the things Tap Protocol said there really hit the nail on the head, which is that, like, I think the nature of the question identifies what the interoperability
problem is with bridges. Because you can have many bridges, you can have like a bridge between
blockchains, but like if you have all these different bridges between all of the different blockchains and then there are different parties
building multiple bridges between the same blockchains then we start building bridges
between bridges and then bridges between bridges between bridges and then it just it gets way more
complicated than it needs to be and so one of the approaches to like creating cross-chain tissue
between all the chains for bitcoin OS is actually that we're not
building a bridge at all. The cross-chain tissue that we're trying to connect all the chains with
is with Charms, which is a Bitcoin meta protocol, but really a cross-chain universal meta protocol
for any UTXO chain and eventually any chain at all. And so the idea with this is such that the only thing that people need to do
or that other wallet providers or platform providers for assets need to do in order to
make this work for them is to implement the charms protocol. And then the charms protocol
on its own, like on wallet side, like just by implementing that software, will allow users to send any asset
from a given chain over to another chain that's integrated with the charms protocol
and to a wallet that is say integrated with charms. And so we're simplifying the integration
process as much as possible, such that once the work is done on the charm side, and like we have
the software ready ready it's just
wallets that need to go and implement it and then just from that one wallet um you'll be able to
send any asset to any of the other chains that are integrated with charms and so you don't need to
say build a separate bridge from bitcoin to cardano and then another one from bitcoin to ethereum and
then to solana and then to litecoin and then to dogecoin and then have a separate bridge going from Litecoin to Dogecoin and from Litecoin to Cardano and have a super complex
way. It's just a matter of get Charms integrated on each of the chains. And that's what the Bitcoin
OS and Charms teams are working on together. And then wallet side. Yeah. And then wallet side,
as long as a given wallet supports like each of these chains on their own they just need to implement the charm software and voila like they can allow
their users to like beam assets between any of these chains at once and so that's really what
we're focused on and it pertains to a question that never quite got around to us earlier you
were talking about the technical advantage uh in of UX that Bitcoin OS can provide.
And I do believe it comes to the Charm's standard
and simplifying the cross-chain connections.
And that's going to make a much better UX overall.
You said that it may come down to using the Charm protocol
You said that it may come down to using the charm protocol as a standard.
as a standard.
But does the others here in the room agree with that?
Because at some point, we have to have that conversation, I think.
Otherwise, I mean, it's going to be kind of like a winner-takes-all thing.
But I see here, Fitzy, you have your hand up.
Yeah, thank you.
I think I can't speak to charms.
I must say I do not have a working knowledge on charms,
but I think if we zoomed out and look at what essentially we're saying here,
it's doing it in a different way,
which is not sending the assets through the bridges.
And so absolutely, we can speak to this.
TAP is part of, the company is called Track Systems. And so Tap is the Bitcoin
L1 protocol for programmability with full custody that I mentioned earlier with no bridges and
multi-six, et cetera. But also Track Network is a blockless L1 that can be integrated, doesn't need
to be, but can be integrated with Tap protocol. And what this does is, if I really kind of speak in a sort of developer way,
you can build the entire stack directly on the track network.
So you don't need to use any additional sources of truth.
You don't need to have all of these different indexes be indexed by another indexer
and then indexed by another indexer.
And you have this like Russian doll of indexing and all these things, which is essentially what a lot of the solutions that we're
talking about could run into eventually. Because when you have different things that are sending
assets from one, I think about it like a train. And people might or might not agree with the
analogy, but I'm a very visual person. When we talk about assets going between chains,
visual person. When we talk about assets going between chains, you have got a train, and it is
a Bitcoin train, and it is on Bitcoin rails. If that train goes through a bridge to another chain,
that chain has rails that are maybe two millimeters wider, two millimeters, two inches,
maybe two feet more narrow. It's the incompatibility of the assets that causes the problem.
Because then people have to have bridges that have to have multi-sigs nine times out of 10,
or something that means that it's not trustless, right? And so this conversation now, as we're
having it in this paradigm, is actually the future as we're discussing it is not to take
all these bridges and have all these different assets going back and forth. And we get dizzy
trying to keep track of which wrapped what and unwrapped what and it's all just language at
the end of the day it's you know the actual underlying core basics here are boring too
boring to get into but it's just language how do we frame it and so what i'm saying is you can
literally have it where all the assets can be utilized and moved by an app on something like a blockless network where your
indexing logic all runs on the l1 the uh the oracle runs on the l1 you don't have cloud which is a key
point for decentralization chains are bound by using uh browser browsers and cloud which is
fundamentally centralized anyway because amazon as we saw a few weeks ago we had issues with cloud and all of the major marketplaces went down right that
showed us that web 3 is stuck in the browser so this is now a whole greater point that we had
should have a different conversation about but it speaks to this idea of not moving the assets
actually is a great idea it's a great option to have and it's not a coincidence that a few of us
in here are now talking about it in this way because that is as benny mentioned earlier and
a few other guys are saying it is where it seems to be going and that's the right direction right
less friction less risk exactly and i totally agree with that yet it still brings me that back
to this um to the question because you're speaking about the tracks protocol or let's say basically what your protocol is built on and I've just heard I've just
heard about the charm protocol so these are basically two different solutions
right but brings me back to the question again about efforts that needs to be
made towards standardization standardization or let's
say cross compatibility anyhow i see mateo has his hand raised mateo go ahead oh by the way united
cardona in power to the edge i'm coming to you but i do want to first let's say close this segment
and make sure that this is clear for everyone. Go ahead, Matteo.
Yes. So many of you know that first of all, I am an engineer.
I happen to be the CEO by almost necessity, but I embedded into the actual code of these things.
And the problem is not a problem.
It's just is an important point. When we abstract BTC into a meta protocol, whatever meta protocol it is, we need to ask
ourselves who is holding those BTC in that moment then?
Because you cannot burn them on Bitcoin, right?
Somebody has to keep them somewhere.
So at the end of the day, it's either a federation or a multisig.
And this is never what people want to hear. And so it's important to understand that any
solution that we want to propose, either a meta protocol or a more standard bridge, it
must solve this big issue. And at the moment on the market, there are no solutions that fix it.
They are all fancy multisig,
so they are Federation of nodes.
Because what is the problem here?
Well, multisig of course is a big problem,
but the Federation is also a big problem
because it's an additional security assumptions
that you need to trust
to know that the bridge is working correctly.
And what ideally you want to
have is that you have Bitcoin on one side, the other blockchain on the other side, and these are
the only two things you trust. You don't want additional things to trust because a lot of people
barely believe in something else outside Bitcoin. So if you also add additional new stuff that is very recent very small uh maybe not
decentralized because it's very fresh uh then they won't use it or they don't want to suggest it or
not even considering so this is super important because on the one side you have meta protocols
or abstraction that simplify the interoperability of these tokens because it becomes more abstract compared to the
actual tokens that run on the actual chain. But on the other side you have this limitation that is
basically a custodial solution somehow. So there is a federation that is keeping your those BTC
that should be locked in a safe place but you need to trust them because if you don't trust them
and they collude or they get hacked,
they can basically unlock those BTC
and the pegging with the bridge version will be lost.
So this is a very important point
that needs to be addressed, first of all.
And then later we can think about interoperability
because we cannot sacrifice the security there for a better user experience.
Even if I understand how important it is a good user experience.
But the security is first of all.
Otherwise, we just don't use blockchain.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for that.
So with only about 10 minutes left, I'd like
to go to a couple audience questions. So it looks like the United Cardano Student Association
was on stage, but they're not here anymore. Looks like they will be back in a minute.
So let's go to Power to the Edge for an audience question.
Hey, thanks for the chance to come up on stage.
Appreciate everybody's time.
So I have a question specific to user experience,
specifically related to infrastructure readiness.
I appreciate all the solution providers
spend a little bit of time talking about user experience
for their specific application.
But in my mind, the sequence of events in order to deliver the user experience that, you know, users are going to need to continue to use Cardano.
We're going to, one, be able to have to support the load with scalability.
And then, two, I think we need, you know, sufficient stable coin
liquidity. So I'm kind of curious about the solution providers thoughts on, you know, the
criticality of those, you know, attributes for the infrastructure? Um, what's the, what's the
probability that those are going to be in place in a time, um, you know, where we can arrive to
market in a timely fashion and capture, you know, a significant market share. And then are there
other, um, infrastructure readiness elements that, uh, we don't have today that need to be
available at the time these solutions are ready for prime time.
Great question. Anyone has some ideas? Maybe we'll go to tap.
have some ideas maybe we'll go to tap yeah actually um experience quite an experience um
so um the readiness is uh on the bitcoin side is evolving and um in in our cases actually
uh there in a sense that um the infrastructure that has has to that had to be built has been built in the last couple of years right
and um we are able to to to basically pull pull like literal live data from people yeah um because
we're not doing stuff like uh lock locking uh btc within the protocol right so it's very lightweight
uh what you're doing there and um that enables us to rapidly develop things.
And we developed a lot of things. In the beginning, I mentioned the tap wallet.
And the experience there is as close as you can get to an experience that you know, let's say, from other chains.
Speaking of Classic, Ethereum, and their likes.
And that entails like practical things, like that you're not spending sets, yeah,
give some of the sets as dust away to someone else, right?
Because you shouldn't, it keeps that, right?
And these are the progresses that the space in general is making right now yeah and we are able to
provide it already and get get some feedback the feedback is good in
principle it's actually really good but there are still like things little
things here and there where it's like okay do i have to go for this hoop and that hoop yeah um but we're getting there right and what um when it comes to the to the let's
call it like utx o kung fu right um this is a completely different story this is like really
hard tasks uh it's it's uh it's can be highly scientifically, right?
And everyone says that these things take time to develop.
Timeline-wise, I heard here about ranges.
I can estimate, probably based on my experience,
that this might be ranging from now to the next couple of years.
That's the range. it's also opens opportunities yeah so there are projects here as i understand that do like phenomenal stuff
right and it's it's it's right now is the time to follow all this stuff yeah because these will play
out over time some will play out earlier than then later yeah but they will play out. And in that sense, I would rather look at the couple, you know, because you can basically participate from the experience, right?
We see that just a couple of days ago, we see that with Hyperfund, right,
that we released.
People love that.
They love that stuff.
They started to go through the so-called hoops, yeah,
which is just simply like, okay, it's just a different chain in the end, right?
But once I'm there, super, works, right? So people are excited, yeah? And these are the experiences
that need to be made and that needs to populate across the space, yeah? And each of the guys that
are here building right now, yeah? These are, from my understanding high class caliber um projects right and that's
why i can only repeat if it's not available right now it's not an issue if it's an available uh
let's say in a half a year it's also not an issue because there's an opportunity
because there will be something that adds value
thank you for that just to just to kind of my question, I was more focused, and I think everything you said was very valuable and makes sense.
I was more focused really on the Cardano side of infrastructure readiness and specifically on, you know, an ability to handle the load.
on, you know, an ability to handle the load.
And in my mind, like the Midgard protocol is probably the nearest term solution from
what I understand.
And so I'm kind of curious, like, one, what would even be the impact on the, um, user experience, um, given that, you know, um,
a user would have to go to the Midgard layer two or a variant of that. Right.
Um, so I really,
I really love some perspectives on some of the,
on some of the developers with that.
Yeah. I'd be keen to jump in for this. Cause yeah, like, yeah.
So a pat on the edges, like great questions, man. Great question. So yeah, you bring up Midgard because actually, so just
so you're aware, actually, so Sundial and Midgard are being built together. So you could consider
Sundial basically the first flavoring of what Midgard offers. And so it is like your whole issue there is one that I recognize as well.
And it speaks to me.
Something that actually Mateo and I had talked about before, and I think many others in this space will know that there are instances when the Cardano network will hit quite high thresholds where you're up to like 96% capacity.
quite high thresholds where you're up to like 96% capacity. And so if we are imagining a world where
we're getting billions of dollars of Bitcoin coming over, I'm really concerned that it wouldn't be able
to handle all of that capacity. It's a great problem to have, but that's actually why we set
out to build Sundial in particular and to be able to give people an authentically Bitcoin experience.
There is truth to the fact that there is tribalism in this space
and people want to be able to interact with something that speaks to their tribe.
And so by doing Sundial, we're taking the tech stack of Cardano,
but we're wrapping it up in an optimized way to increase speeds
and then to also give people an authentically Bitcoin experience
from end to end using Babel fees, using all these various features and functionalities we've been
building out because the user experience has got to be optimized. It's really the winning strategy
for like every DAP you can ever imagine, right? The whole premise that, oh, if you build it,
they will come just doesn't work.
You have to go out there.
You've got to think about your users
and market to them, give them kind of what they want.
Beyond that, you also brought up stable coins.
This is also something near and dear to my heart.
I think we have been sitting on our hands
a little bit too much on the Cardano side of things.
Part of it is to do not just with the interpersonal relations of just diplomacy in the crypto space, but also because the fact is that we don't have programmable assets natively on Cardano. acquired by these guys, it does require additional functionality. And so another shout out to Mateo
doing SIP 113. And so that is something we're going to be having natively deployed on Sundial.
And so from day one, we want to be able to have these guys have the functionality to be able to
freeze and claw back their own stable coins. Of course, it's an optional thing. We don't need to press that on people
because I think it is important to give choice. But then like changing gears, but somewhat still
on the topic of stable coins, you're probably aware about these pushes now to actually have a
bit of like a sovereign wealth fund for Cardano. I think this is a very good thing, actually. We
need to perhaps actively think about how we best utilize the Cardano treasury to improve the user experience and to also incentivize people to come over and play in Cardano.
So it means having well liquid, liquid stable coins, but also incentives around like Bitcoin.
Right. We're talking about all of this Bitcoin and Cardano coming togetherness, but we're also going to need to like roll out the red carpet. And sometimes that means incentives. And so talk with Bitcoin
OS and some others. And I think it would be a pretty good idea to start to today actively
consider ways that we can use this treasury to incentivize people to come over and play
and to be rewarded with engaging with the ecosystem.
So yeah, a lot could go on. I could probably talk for another two hours on these things,
but yeah, great questions, power to the edges and a lot more to say, but I'll turn it over for now.
That's awesome. Thank you so much. If I could just jump in with one quick final,
especially since we have the Cardano Foundation hosting and we're talking about stable coins.
A question for you guys, and if you don't have the right person from the Cardano Foundation on the call to answer this, I'd really appreciate maybe a follow-up.
But given that the Cardano Foundation is sitting on a significant amount of ADA, is there discussions in serious consideration on the table now to utilize some of
that ADA to fund liquidity for stable coins that we have available today? And even if it's not
directly utilizing it, is there any consideration about maybe even loaning the treasury some of that ADA that you guys are sitting on?
Great question there, Power to the Edge.
Unfortunately, that is beyond the scope of this space.
And there is no one really indeed here who can take that question. question but i would like to encourage you send otherwise a dm to the um to the to the to the
to the x x handle or or an email i mean i'd like to really encourage you to to engage with that as
well and perhaps you know there's someone who would be able to help you or guide you in the
right direction to uh to speak to the right person that's's a great idea. I'd ask you guys, the people that are on this call from the Cardano Foundation,
to do the same thing.
Because I'm like, you know, I got like 700 followers.
I don't know if they're going to listen to me or not.
But you know what I'm saying?
Well, you know, there's always an email, you know, that you can send.
And another thing is, you know, we also have once a month an ama you know you're always welcome to participate in the amas and pose those questions
why not thank you okay thank you but great questions by the way i see that we have here
united cardano you're up yeah um jim everyone i think before I'm going to see you for like I'm
you know calling our name wrongly so we are unified color no saying club so
thank you very much apologize my hands have been all for 10 important so my
question goes this way right we have a lot of question but I think we are out
of time like we have to join that space but the first question from here is I
think basically from the technical parts.
So here's it.
With the current state of interprobability
between Bitcoin and Cardano, right?
How does Cardano UTXO model impact the way
it can interact with Bitcoin?
Great question.
And you're lucky to be joined here
with amazing panelists who understands this
way better than I do.
Is there any one of the panelists here
who would like to take this question?
Matteo, go for it.
Yes, so the actual answer is
different implementation of a breach
may have a different answer to this. The most obvious
reason why UTXO is a good advantage is because of zero knowledge proof. The fact that you can
basically prove a limited set of data respect to the whole state of the blockchain, allows you to create zero knowledge proof
that are much more doable and much more efficient and small.
That means also being able to verify them
on a smart contract level.
And this is what both Bitcoin and Cardano have.
And basically you have, this is the first step
because the UTXO that needs to be proven that exists is the first step because the utxo that needs to be proven that exists is
the first step the outputs but then you need also to prove that the transaction exists so that the
transaction that generates those outputs has actually happened and then at the very the most
difficult also and this is what we tweeted yesterday is you need to prove that a certain
block on the other chain is actually a main block of the main
blockchain on that side. So because the Bitcoin and also Cardano can actually fork and have
parallel forks at the same time for a short period of time and you need to basically prove that the
block that you're using to prove that the transaction exists is also the valid one.
So the UTXO saves us a lot of headaches in the first part.
And then you have the second part that is also what we have basically showed yesterday.
Thank you, Matteo.
I see that Bitcoin OS would also like to respond to this.
I'd say let's give Bitcoin OS the opportunity to respond,
and then we can move forward towards a closure bastion i see that you have your hand raised unfortunately we might not
have enough time for that but we'll consider bitcoin sure so yeah so there's a few reasons
that uh utxo allows for a special connection between bitcoin and cardano um fluid tokens
just articulated one
of them very clearly. Another one is one that we discovered later on, and again, related to
the CHARMS protocol. And so the way that for us that the CHARMS meta protocol works is that we
assign tokens or we assign these special, these magical Bitcoin tokens or these universal cross-chain tokens to transaction outputs that
exist on the native blockchain. And so a regular Bitcoin node might not recognize that these tokens
are assigned, but what we can do is we can include metadata into every transaction output
into a specific charms transaction. And that metadata contains rules about how a certain token works.
We call it a spell.
And it also contains a proof that includes information about the transaction history pertaining to those tokens.
And so what we do is the security guarantees of these tokens from the charms protocol
are as powerful as the l1
itself because what we do is we assign tokens to certain utxos within one's own wallet and so that's
a really cool thing and and it allows for very simple interoperability between chains because
what we realized is that we can bake in a very simple rule, an extra special functionality onto the
Charms protocol, which initially exists on Bitcoin. And we can say we can allow people to transfer
tokens from a UTXO on Bitcoin over to a placeholder UTXO on the Cardano blockchain.
And it's just like one extra line of code to allow people to beam tokens from one
side over to the other side it's like a very very simple implementation and so just that level of
simplicity to be able to move assets between chains these two chains that are architecturally
very similar because of this is just phenomenal yeah absolutely wow amazing uh unified cardano phenomenal. Yeah, absolutely. Wow, amazing. Unified Cardano. Happy to that I'm pronouncing
your name. Well, I really do hope that this answered your initial question. I do know
that you had several more questions to ask. I will allow you to ask one more before we
move towards closing the space. Thank you very much for that. That's a great one. And
also, yeah, this question like i
told you it's for these questions are from our community so and i love the um the explanation
that we are getting it's more very explanatory so the second one goes this way it's actually
about the real world use cases of um of um the interoperability between bitcoin and cardano right
okay what um can you give can you give example of d5 protocol or DABs on Cardano that could benefit from Bitcoin liquidity?
Great question. Bitcoin OS, go right ahead.
Sure. I mean, the number one that sticks out to me would be liquid.
I think the number one protocol, the type of protocol that people want to
use a Bitcoiner realistically would use is a lending protocol. And Bitcoiners want to borrow
against their Bitcoin and like be able to get dollars without having to sell their BTC so that
they can huddle for it. Because most of them are short fiat and long Bitcoin anyway. So they're
confident that the appreciation of Bitcoin will
like more than account for whatever debt they have to pay afterwards. And to be able to do that
without having to trust a centralized custodian with your coins for that entire time is very,
very valuable. Like there's kind of an argument within the Bitcoin community, like especially
the community of like Bitcoin maxis, where you have one contingent that's becoming very open to the idea of borrowing against your Bitcoin.
But then there's another kind of like loyalist, even more hardcore contingent that says we
don't want to trust any centralized entity with our coins to begin with.
So why would we use a service like that?
And so you've got this fight going on, like on the Bitcoin side, a similar fight is happening about Bitcoin treasury companies like MicroStrategy.
A lot of people worship some of these companies and what they're doing and they're buying a bunch of Bitcoin.
Others are saying, well, why would you invest in a company like that?
Because they're centralized and it's like owning a Bitcoin ETF and you should own ETFs because you should have all of your Bitcoin on chain.
ETF and you should know ETFs because you should have all of your Bitcoin on chain.
And so I think a protocol like Liquid would allow you to get, or like really any lending
protocol, would allow you to get the best of both worlds.
So you can just borrow against your BTC, but it has the security guarantees of Cardano,
which is an extremely decentralized blockchain.
And so you maintain cryptographic security rather than having to trust it.
Amazing.
Well worded, I can say, and well explained.
Unified Cardano, thank you for the questions.
You've been amazing.
Also interacting with all of the participants here.
Now, Bastien, before we close, I do want to give you the opportunity to um not sure if you
wanted to share anything but um i will give you the opportunity to speak just briefly before we bastion the mic is yours or share pool
looks like bastion's back in the audience now okay perfect all right i think it's safe for us to move
towards a closure before we close, I want to take a moment
to thank all of the incredible builders
and innovators who joined us today
to share their work
on creating trustless interoperability
between Bitcoin and Cardano.
Yes, indeed, it is inspiring
to see so many different approaches
working towards the same vision,
unlocking new utility,
use cases and opportunities,
not only for Cardano, but also for the entire crypto space. Yes, indeed, we all know that over 2.1 trillion US dollar in value is currently locked into Bitcoin. But to truly unlock that
potential, we need more than just technology. We need collaboration. We need open dialogue and the creation of clear standards that prioritizes trustlessness, security, and as Sheldon said earlier, user experience.
Today's conversation was just one step in that direction. Of course, we look forward
to seeing how all of these amazing projects evolve and how the community continues to drive
this forward together. Thank you all for being part of this conversation and we look forward
to future updates. Thank you, guys. Great space.
Thank you all for having us.
Take care.
Yeah, guys, everyone.
Thank you for joining.
