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Building on Agglayer & Solving Fragmentation
Recorded: May 5, 2025 Duration: 1:01:51Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion on liquidity fragmentation, AgLayer emerges as a pivotal player in the Web3 landscape, collaborating with key projects like Lumia and Ternoa to enhance cross-chain interactions. The panelists explore trends, growth opportunities, and the critical need for innovative solutions to streamline user experiences and bolster project success.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Hey, what's happening, everyone?
Happy Monday.
Happy Monday.
Hopefully, hopefully the Monday is treating you guys well right now, but hopefully we're
about to make it even better.
But guys, before we begin, let us go ahead and kick in that usual mic check. Guys and gals in the audience, if you can hear me
right now, please let me know with some thumbs ups, with some hearts, with some kind of indication
that the audio is in fact reaching you all right now. Timmy with the five hearts.
Let's go. I was sweating my chair a little bit.
I saw the down thumb from the house.
I was like, uh-oh.
Wait.
And then I thought, how are they able to hear me if they actually can't hear me?
Twitter space-ception.
But anyway, Diana, CJ, Web3MJ, Ari Love, King J, Emmy, Paul.
Oh, my goodness.
Jay, King Mario.
I'm going to be doing this for the next five minutes
if this keeps up.
Diane, Kevin.
Thank you guys.
Thank you guys so much for helping me out
with the mic check.
But guys, mic check is complete,
but please give us just a few more minutes
to set things up on the panel.
But in the meantime,
you guys already know what's up.
Head on to the bottom right-hand corner.
Give us a like, comment,
and retweet on today's space.
And we will be starting the show
in just a few more minutes.
Let's space. And we will be starting the show in just a few more minutes. Let's go.
I That it pays me, I'm keeping good vibes One of them on the road, watch out for all surprises What it provides is good and bad, but nothing entices
Another wonder in the night
Let me paint the view
Colour it's home with my life
For every moment shared with you
Not out in the day
But never fully gone
Going to be back again
Until the coming of the dawn For all the days ahead of us Never fully gone. Going to be back again.
Until the coming of and on.
For all the days ahead of us, put your hands up.
Wave them side to side for good luck.
For all the nights like this, put your hands up.
Love the moment even from the test.
You always got my back.
And of course, I got your back.
Don't you worry about that now.
It's been a good day, good night.
It's gonna be a good day, good night. To me that's enough
Nothing comes between us
Dancing like ballerinas
Under the moonlight all night long
How these plain and simple scenes
Get painted so vividly by you
I just want to stay with you.
Around the world I slowly dance
whenever our eyes meet.
You know you'll leave me in the tracks.
It means everything to me
looking down below.
The one I seek to find.
No matter where you might go. Remember you'll be home, I'm not.
Always watching over me somehow you make me feel invincible, power to my soul, yup.
I'm at ease with things that used to bother me cause your existence just lights me up, yup.
You always got my back and of course I got your back, don't you worry about that now.
It's been a good day good
night it's gonna be a good day good night within the inner heart i plead for you to talk to me
i want to hear all the good and bad the new stories you have as i jump across the sky Our hand turns high So goodnight
Let me sing a lullaby
Love
I'll be seeing you baby Yo, how's it going everyone and welcome back to AgLayer, the cross-chain settlement layer
that is aggregating all of Web3. My name is Ice and I'll be your host for today's show.
Now, ladies and gentlemen, discussions surrounding today's topic is something that has been brought
up a lot in our industry from slippage problems and failed transactions, all the way to disrupting
projects and placing limitations on the way that we can build. Liquidity fragmentation has been one
of the largest obstacles that Web3 has been combating. And for a while, it seemed like the
problem just became worse as time went on. But fast forward to 2025, not only do we have more tools and more resources,
we also have more teams and projects building to solve this exact issue.
And today, we're going to have the opportunity to speak with some of the masterminds that are building to accomplish this.
So let's get into it, guys.
But first, let me check in with my dear
co-host from the AgLayer team. What's going on, Diana? How are you doing today?
Hey, ICE, GM, and hey, everyone listening in. I'm happy to be here. Happy Monday.
And yeah, excited to get started on this one. So let's go.
Let's go, indeed. And just a quick checkup um i know um i know a lot of a lot of us are
coming back from uh from token 2049 uh travels from dubai um were any of uh were any of the
ag layer uh team uh teammates over and uh over in dubai this past week by any chance
we did have a few team members out there yes um actually sandeep was out there too um if you haven't seen yet we uh we had some
involvement in the karate combat fight that was on friday night so go watch the recaps they're
super fun and exciting if you're looking for some good ko's but yeah we had a bit of our team was
out there that's awesome i actually uh caught a little bit of the stream.
I believe one of our teammates actually streamed, actually they linked us to the stream that
was happening on TikTok.
So I got to see a little bit of that.
But that's fun to know.
That's good stuff.
It's good stuff.
But you know, before we begin, let me actually go ahead and say hello to our other co-hosts.
Checking in from Ag Lair.
What's up, my man, Timmy?
How you doing, bro?
Happy Monday.
Happy Monday.
Happy Monday, indeed.
Happy Monday according to charts or happy Monday according to Timmy?
I would say according to Timmy.
Every day I get to talk to you is a good day.
So that's what I'm sticking with.
Thank you, man.
We appreciate that.
We appreciate the old front flowers before the show begins, Timmy.
It's always a pleasure to do shows with you as well, my friend.
With that being said, let's go ahead and check in with the masterminds,
the panelists that we've invited to today's show.
First off, let us go ahead and say hello to Diego from Lumia.
How are you doing, Diego?
Hello, guys. It's a real pleasure to be here from lumia how are you doing diego hello hello guys it's a real pleasure
to be here with you today thank you it's always a pleasure to chat with a glare team and yeah i just
came back from token 20 20 49 a lot of a lot of exciting things happening there and uh looking
forward to chat about a glare with you you today. That is awesome.
Thank you so much for that, Diego.
And let's go ahead and welcome in our representative
coming from Ternoa.
What's going on, guys?
GMGM, guys.
That's Martin from Ternoa, co-founder.
Good to be with you this evening, my time.
I'm still around Dubai.
Attended your event, guys.
It was one of the best ones?
You know, the Topgolf Aglier event was a great idea.
You know, that change from sipping cheap cocktails, you know, in overcrowded bars.
I appreciate that.
Man, you guys are giving me so much FOMO.
I got to go back and check on this VOD replay.
But also, before I say hello to the next panelist, I just want to make sure i got your name right um i kind of missed it there
for a second turn away can you just repeat that for us that's martin perfect perfect thank you so
much for joining us martin pleasure and let's help before we begin we have one more panelist to say
hello to and of course that is our rep coming in from octo what's's going on, guys? Hey, guys. Kush Agra here, GM.
So excited to be here talking to other builders on Fragmentation.
Our team members were presented to Token Dubai,
and hope you guys have catch up with them.
We appreciate that.
Thank you so much for joining us, Octo.
But that being said,
let's go ahead and kick off today's conversation, guys. And of course,
the way that we usually do things, we start off in the very tip of the iceberg,
so to speak. And then we're going to take a deeper dive into seeing how we can tie things
back to the subject at hand, to the projects that are helping building towards this goal here.
But guys, the first question I do wanna ask you folks is,
how does liquidity fragmentation affect crypto
and the projects building in Web3?
So please take a moment, think about what you wanna say,
and at any point, if you wanna join in on the conversation,
please use the bottom right-hand panel
to raise your hands like so.
And of course, if you have anything to add
in direct response to what
the previous speaker just said, keep those hands raised for me, but also hit me up with one of
these waving hand emojis here, and I'll do my best to skip the line and send you the mic ASAP.
And for everybody else in the audience listening right now, you guys already know what's up.
Please head back to the bottom right-hand corner. Give us a like, comment, and retweet on today's spaces as I actually hand the mic back to my man, Timmy, to start things off.
What are your thoughts on this, bro? How does liquidity fragmentation affect crypto and projects building on Web3?
I think the biggest thing, and I know I've said it before, that just it makes getting started, or I would say like right after you build, like it makes getting traction significantly harder because you basically start building.
And if you build on one chain, can impact all of Web3, really.
And then if you want to hit every chain, then obviously that takes a lot more capital and time up front to deploy on multiple chains.
There's no easy way for a project to get going and have access to very deep liquidity without this fragmentation, I guess, without aggregation, because there's always going to be a tradeoff that they face.
And it's either do we spend the time going multi-chain and multi-stack or do we focus on our core product deploy on one chain and limit ourselves um to that chain's
liquidity so it's a it's a really unfortunate situation especially with so many teams just
trying to start up and get some traction especially when they have a very good product and useful
products coming to market absolutely man you know and right before we pass it over to martin you
know you said that uh projects really having to it to it's a really difficult time for projects to access deep liquidity.
Right.
So but in your in your mind, Timmy, how does this how did this impact project founders decision making process in terms of what chain they wanted to launch on?
I think it, I think real, really what we've seen happen is they almost start out and then you create these incentives aren't aligned appropriately.
So what they have to do is they have to either switch chains to a chain that will give them more money, get VC money and give up more of the project and then be like have to answer to shareholders um and it just creates
a situation where they can't execute their vision and they're just desperate for money in some cases
where it's like okay you just chain hop and then you never really actually develop the product
because you're always looking for the funding and the liquidity to access and i
think that's really um really a huge downside that we see i see that manifesting all the time man
really projects having to sacrifice certain things biting the bullet right just to make things work
well man and and end up the elements that end up getting sacrificed usually it usually harkens back to the foundational horizons that project founders had in the first place.
And it's always a shame when we see projects being forced to pivot when they encounter problems that weren't really necessarily their fault to begin with.
But Martin, you got your hand up.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Yeah, thank you.
Just wanted to add like something something very brief but that's basically
well very crucial issue two-sided very crucial issue as in a builder side uh well it's this
constraint where basically your app is definitely going to be more successful uh on places where
there is high liquidity or places where liquidity is easily accessible can be easily
bridged to that's pretty much what you were referring to to me but on the other side of
the user experience basically that's for end users a matter of where do i put my money you
know i think we all have friends who ask us oh i just bought some each you know i want to
lend them where should i lend them you know should i want to lend them. Where should I lend them?
You know, should I lend them on the L1?
Should I lend them on an L2?
Should I bridge my liquidity to Solana because everybody is talking about this
other DeFi protocol, you know, and at the end of the day, that creates this
this problem in the end user mind, which should not be a problem.
And there is this sort of weird effect, you know, where at the end of the day,
you create like this sort of well, we all say liquidity is a moat, you know, that you end up
creating moats unknowingly. And at the end of the day, some chains do manage to thrive over a very
long period of time out of having been able to lock you down liquidity, you know. And yeah, so
just wanted to add this on top of timmy's points
yeah thank you for that martin and it really is true right because for end users sometimes well
sometimes all the time end users typically don't really care about how things work in the background
they just need it to work and regarding your example like yeah where do i send this money like
do you have an ethereum wallet like finance solana it used to be really, really in a pain in the butt, so to speak.
But nowadays, it's a lot more simplified.
And I think this is the important part.
Simplifying these decisions in order to help the end users reduce stress.
And I think this alone, curbing this, is actually going to improve the quality of life and help innovate and really bring in and bridge
Web2 users a lot more seamlessly than the way that we've seen. But that being said, Diego,
you got your hand up. We'd love to toss the mic over to you. Yes, thank you. I would love to share
our perspective as an RWA chain regarding liquidity fragmentation and how it affects us.
So definitely it limits market participation right so let me
give you an example um an nwa tokenized lumia chain might not be tradable or landable on a defy
protocol on another chain without bridges or rapid assets that no one trusts anymore, and we all know that they are the security risk and friction.
So this means for users, obviously, poor UX and limited utility.
So a part of this is already addressed by Lumia via Lumia Stream, which make the
RWA's DeFi composable, unlocking literally endless trade by liquidity for real world
assets, because we can literally by liquidity for real world assets,
because we can literally pull liquidity
from traditional finance and bring it
in a trustless way to DeFi.
But then by integrating a Glayer,
we enable our assets to be interoperable
and tradable across chains with minimized trust
or even trustless, we can say,
because a Glayer mechanism via ZK proofs
and pessimistic proofs provide a really trustless system.
So maybe in our case, it's not really just about getting the liquidity
because we have it by design, but it is literally to share it with others,
which is so crucial for us.
Yeah, and I believe I actually spoke with Diana about this a couple of weeks ago,
which is we're always dancing around a subject matter that is trust, regulation, and security.
And by the end of the day, these are things that people don't really want to spend too much time on.
They rather focus on the trending, the bullish, the hype points, right?
But to your point, Diego, I uh it definitely warrants more conversation and right before we pass the mic on kind of want to ask you because you mentioned um like really minimizing the trust
friction points that exist within TradFi and to that note Diego I wanted to hear your thoughts
on this which is what do you think are some of the most common concerns that TradFi users have when it comes to actually making the pivot into Web3?
Okay, so definitely a good point for this is a strong point that they look for is compliance,
obviously. So they want an initial layer of compliance. Then it's possible to make the
assets accessible in a trustless and permissionless way.
But first, we need the layer of compliance to make them comfortable to onboard in the Web3 ecosystem.
Also, liquidity is a big challenge.
So as I was mentioning, we solved this with our Lumia Stream product,
which literally bridge liquidity from centralized sources of liquidity.
Like initially it was for crypto assets and it was via bridging liquidity from sexes to
DeFi.
In that case for real world assets it will be via traditional finance broker, brokers,
etc.
So this is another point.
So to make these assets liquid and also they really want to have a proper distribution of these assets.
So how will distribution will come?
With a good UX, right?
So where will let a good UX come from?
For example, from Aglair, because this way people can buy these assets, can trade these assets, can lend and borrow these assets across every blockchain integrated within their glare.
So it's absolutely important for this because, you know, these people are tokenizing their real world assets.
But at the end of the day, what they want to have is not a token on their wallet, but a way to distribute these real world assets to a broader public so these
these few tricks will help us to to increase adoption of these real world assets within the
web3 ecosystem gotcha so combination of uh distribution and of course the layer of compliance
and yeah i see that happening a lot diego and. And it feels like when I kind of compare the two,
it feels like responsibility in TradFi
comes from custodial services, right?
Being provided by banks or platforms.
But in Web3, it's trustless and automated.
Again, it goes back to the point that we made earlier.
It helps reduce the layers of friction,
simplifies the decision-making process
and reducing stress along the way.
All of these are quality of life adjustments
that I think us human beings can enjoy
just a little bit more of.
But thank you so much for that, Diego.
And I would love to actually hand the mic over to Octo.
I don't see your hand up anymore,
but I did want to check in with you anyway.
Yeah, like with the problems,
like what liquidity fragmentation
can like effect Web3, like over the top of all the points, like what we have seen in the real world scenarios, like the capital gets split across the ecosystem for any of the guys who do regular web 3 like with the liquidity fragmentation the capital gets uh split across
the chain the user cost increases uh utilization gets reduced the higher failure rates in terms of
hopping so uh and like uh developers generally are motivated to duplicate the infra to different chains and not solve the core problems of user experience
because of the network effect of the chains so yeah just adding on to the points about
thank you for that man and you know i i'm definitely guilty of that as well because
when i first started um in web3 i kind of, I kind of got glued into the whole ERC system.
But back then, I just thought I was an Ethereum maxi without really knowing what that meant.
But for a while, and even maybe till now, I feel like my loyalty has kind of stuck to this chain.
And why do you suppose that is, Okta? Why do you suppose DeFi users tend to have this psychology
about staying loyal to their chains?
It's more like, according to me, chains are more like hub of cultures.
These are cults where you get connected to like-minded people, want to solve the larger picture of decentralization so you can see different
examples how polygon community grew how the solana community grew every community grew with a culture
so basically and like based on what kind of time you guys actually entered crypto like for me
actually entered crypto like uh for me uh i was also ethereum maxi like uh vitalik didn't even
know that he gave me the job in crypto it was so decentralized so basically uh so that's why i was
the eat maxi like i have my career because of the industry when the smart contract everything got launched but yeah like that thing would always
be there but like currently it's more like an ecosystem versus user experience like
web2 would never ship from a like overwhelming user experience to an overwhelming one so
right now the current problem seems different
that's quite interesting man you know i've always um i've always questioned myself you know
that am i am i staying loyal if that's the right word to use am i staying loyal to one chain
because of them because there's this exclusive benefit for being loyal or is it perhaps just
isis reluctancy to learn new things i've always
questioned myself that i gotta i gotta have the i gotta go back and have a heart one-on-one with
myself to really figure that out but uh you know take the opportunity to pass you the mic martin i
see you there with your hand up go for it man i appreciate um i'm gonna actually answer this point
and go back but bounce back to the the point we by the guys earlier, by Diego in particular. I kind of
disagree, you know, about the user's expectation being about
regulation or distribution. I think first off, we need to
consider why do people get into crypto in the first place. And
I guess we're all very, very, very well aware of the fact
they come to make money basically, which I'm not
judging if it's a good thing or bad thing at the moment.
But then the question is, when we want to onboard new users,
they are people who want to make money.
And as of today, basically, we'd be competing with other money-making apps,
whether we're talking about Robinhood or whether we're talking about
whether we're talking about gambling platforms and stuff like that.
gambling platforms and stuff like that.
So I would add that that's the first driver to people joining the ecosystem.
And this is how we might be able to beat TratFi at some point.
But that goes back to what you were saying, ICE,
as in supposedly crypto is about being trustless,
so very easy, very transparent.
And at the end of the day, because of all the liquidity fragmentation issue, it's not.
At the end of the day, it's way more complex to start onboarding crypto versus starting using stock accounts and making some money on Robinhood.
So you have to be really driven by high yield opportunities to join crypto
and or, and I'm going to go back to your last question, culture basically. And if I'm being
very honest, the impact of culture on crypto communities and stickiness has been at the end
of the day, the second mode after liquidity. That's how you keep your users.
And I would argue that this is what started to hurt Ethereum at some point.
Ethereum grew so big with so many L2s, which all embed their own specific cultures, basically.
We could argue that the Poly polygon culture is very different than the
Arbitrum culture or the base culture, you know.
And at the end of the day, I would argue that the best way for any ecosystem
to, let's say, preserve their moat would be entertaining a strong culture, a strong community.
That's not what's going to make the product successful in the long run.
We're going to need massive influx of capital to happen.
But in the short term, that's how you protect your stuff, you know,
because you don't want Polygon, Paul Holder to move their liquidity to base.
For instance, I mean, we got to say it, you know, it's PVP at the end of the day.
And we even less want them to move their liquidity to Solana.
So, yep.
I hear you, man.
You know, as much as we want to work together, you know, and kind of in a nutshell, it does
really feel like a PV a pvp space
right but uh but i also do know that we are and now in 2025 we have uh we have some solutions
being presented um to address this exact problem and i would love to actually pass the mic to diana
for that question but i will check in with diego first since he's got his hand up so let's go to
you first diego what's on your mind man thank you uh so yeah i entirely
agree with martin that the experience should be trustless and not really regulated the experience
for the end user while obviously to onboard the institution we need some regulations in place
uh so we are totally totally aligned on this i think all crypto is figuring out this right now
um regarding the loyalty of the users in my opinion ideally we don't need the users to be
loyal to a chain like tribes like we are seeing right now but simply the the users to be loyal
to products so to products that actually works,
that they need to use, that are useful for them.
So they will be loyal to these and these products will be deployed on chains.
So the chain will get the value from the usage of the product more than from
the crazy tribes going to fight on crypto Twitter every day in Repli.
So this is how, in my opinion, should be ideal in the future.
So let's hope for it to go this way.
That's actually really interesting, Diego.
Let me ask you this, man.
Do you think when someone gets onboarded into crypto, right?
When you're choosing your chain for the first time,
do you think end users make their choice
based on practicality for solving problems?
Or do you think it's based on the ability
or opportunity to make money?
Definitely the opportunity to make money
is really important at the current stage
because our main application for crypto is to make money is very important at the current stage because our main application for crypto
is to make money, right?
But we saw already with, for example, Polymarket.
Polymarket has on boarded a lot of users for Polygon and it's, yeah, it is for making money,
but it is also for something different, which is prediction market. So it's not strictly for making money with some product that will give you the 10x, some meme coin, some yield farming that promise you 1000 APR or something like that, 1000% APR or something like that.
But it's actually to use some product like Polymarket, which was really successful.
to use some product like Polymarket,
which was really successful.
So hopefully at one point,
users will switch their mindset
from crazy speculation to adoption of products.
I feel like you just described
the past five years of my life, Diego.
It's so true.
It's so true.
I think you might have described a lot of people's
walk of life that are in our space right now, to be quite honest with you, Diego, is that
we came into the space initially as a means to make money, right? I think a lot of us onboarded
into the space, especially during our COVID times, because let's be real, opportunities were far and
few between and accessibility was basically non-existent at the time
with the mandate going around.
So we came into the space searching for opportunities
to actually make more.
But a lot of us tapped out, but those of us that stayed,
we ended up coming here and building for that practicality.
We ended up building here because of our passion,
but also with a drive to solve these real-life problems.
So it's really interesting to see how my five-year journey kind of got exemplified
exactly by what you said, Diego. I really appreciate that. Thank you for that, man.
I did want to bring things back. I mentioned I wanted to actually ask Diana something,
piggybacking off of what Martin said earlier, and that is projects seems to be running
into tumultuous obstacles left, right, and center
when they're trying to build in our space, right, Diana?
So that being said, how might chain aggregation
help bring solutions to this problem?
Yeah, this one is a big one because it affects developers.
And I think one of the biggest pieces that we talk about with Aglare is because you're aggregating the assets across multiple chains,
developers or builders don't have to worry so much about bootstrapping liquidity.
Right now we're seeing so many new projects and ideas come into the space.
And they may have like a really cracked out dev team
or engineer that's building it,
but the project might not go anywhere
if you don't have, I don't know,
let's say like a growth marketer on the team
that can really help develop a growth model
that can bring in new users.
A lot of times right now we're seeing different
incentivize, I can't even say it, different ways to incentivize users to come to different projects.
And I think that's what also kind of lends to this almost like scammy feel that we get sometimes in crypto is like this sort of chasing the new alpha
for, I don't know, free tokens, free money, free whatever. And I think that in order to get away
from that, bringing something like aggregation to as the solution will help teams and chains and projects and applications reach users without having to do
some of these like insane campaigns, marketing campaigns, etc. They can just tap into the
unified liquidity and the unified user base that is connected to Aglare. So I forget who said it
earlier, but it was a very good point. Like it's if you're connecting to Aglare. So I forget who said it earlier, but it was a very
good point. Like it's, if you're connecting to Aglare, like if you're a chain connecting to Aglare,
it's like you are going to benefit from some of the bigger networks that have like a lot of
liquidity and users, but then, you know, some of your users and liquidity might also benefit on other chains or other projects that are also in the ecosystem.
So it is like a very collaborative thing as well, which I think is really cool.
But that, I think, is like the biggest piece for for devs, like protocol devs and app devs in this space.
So that's, yeah, that's just my two cents.
I love it. I know, speaking of your two cents, my man, two cents, Demi, also popping off there.
I'm going to hand him the mic in just a second, but just to kind of build up with what you said,
Diana, I really love the way that you framed it, you know, especially in our space. There
definitely is a little bit of a scammy nature because i feel like um if i were to show my my
phone to any any normie any web2 user that's not really acquainted with our space it really feels
like everything that's being posted we're trying to sell people on something right people are being
sold on utility people are being sold on tokens on coins that they may or may not need and it kind
of reminds me of this video that I saw a while ago,
which is essentially two men sitting at a table in which one man says to the other,
hey, sell me this.
And if you can sell me this, then I will hire you.
And the person applying for the job says,
okay, what are you trying to sell?
And he's like, sell me this pen.
And the applicant says, no, why would I want to do that?
And he asks him, do you need this pen?
No, I don't.
Then there's no point in me trying to sell it to you.
However, if you do need this,
then that is a different story, right?
And this kind of harkens back
to what we've been talking about.
If our product genuinely improves your quality of life
and solves problems you are actively facing
in everyday, like day-to-day tasks,
it becomes less of a sell
and it becomes more of an
introduction to a solution instead. And I know it sounds very similar, but there is a drastic
difference in pitch. And especially when someone is sitting at the other end of the table, when
they're being sold on something, they may put up a face for it, but at the end of the day, they know
what is actually happening. So it's a lot about tangibility, but it's also a lot about psychology. But that being said, speaking of Diana's two cents, I want to pass it over to my
man, two cents to me. Go for it, man. Yeah, no, I just I also want to add like kind of
tying things together. When we came to this space, so many people came for the money
aspect and then we started building to solve real problems and i think one part of aggregation that is huge is like there are capital markets and like
efficiencies that on-chain solutions help um but no one's going to hit a 100x on but they can still
benefit from chain aggregation so like when you think
about the entire landscape of rwas and like supply chain tracking would be like a huge one where it's
like okay like now you can track things that provide makes markets more efficient gives people
a benefit more money can be made but maybe you're only talking about making something two three four
five percent more efficient.
It's not going to have this huge return.
But then those projects that are building are limited to a single chain right now.
And that's not a good situation because maybe you want to collateralize assets or something like that and you're only on one chain. Now when you have this aggregation, you can really open up the market and it just gets rid of a whole bunch of inefficiencies, which is actually a huge win for all users. Well said to me. And to be frank with you, whenever I go to the AgLayer page
and I read the bio in the description
it really does feel like the solution that we've been discussing is kind of exemplified by what's
written on the headline but uh instead of instead of redirecting everybody this is also a pseudo
call to action by the way instead of redirecting everybody to the ag layer page and like comment
and subscribe i also want to ask you hear from you you directly yourself, Timmy, how is AgLayer different from other solutions available right now in the market when it comes to liquidity fragmentation? just a cluster of evm chains but it's composable across any single chain so any layer one any layer
two any uh cdk or sdk um that so like those are basically development kits within certain
blockchains like anyone will be able to plug into it so like there are other solutions on the market that are evm specific
so you could connect to any evm chain and i'm sure we're going to see more solutions pop up within
different ecosystems if it's on solana or i don't like in the cosmos ecosystem like those work well
for their ecosystem but ag layer is really thinking bigger than just the Ethereum
virtual machine. We're thinking like, what if you could be on Polygon and access liquidity on
Bitcoin or Solana? And right now those solutions don't exist, and that's why we think it's super important to build that side. And then
there are so like, that's really for the end user, but then for developers, and like people that
really care about the math behind it, we have the pessimistic proof, which is very different. So
that will, that will basically ensure that connected chains can't get rugged.
It's only the chain that connects to the ag layer, which I mean,
obviously it's not good when any chain rugs, but, um,
it certainly reduces risk for every other protocol connecting into the ag
layer. I think those are the two biggest ones.
Gotcha. You know, I love that you mentioned basically the experience for newcomers in crypto.
And I would love to elaborate on this subject matter for our panelists in just a second. But
before we move on to that, Timmy, can you actually explain to our audience members,
what exactly is pessimistic proof and why is this important in our space
i okay i cannot explain it super deeply because i am not a developer i am a it's funny like you
were talking about marketing uh my job is to relay what the developers say uh in the cleanest way
possible but basically a pessimistic proof starts from the assumption
that things can't be so it's like i love science and growing up of like what's the scientific
theory and the scientific method you assume that it's not true uh to start with and then through
like being able to prove like nope nope, this isn't the case.
This isn't the case.
And you kind of run through all these iterations.
It becomes like, so you start from the assumption you're not telling me the truth, but then you almost disprove everything else.
So it has to be true.
It's kind of the layman's terms or the simplest I can make what a pessimistic proof does. And then there's really, really high-level math behind like ZK,
like zero-knowledge proofs,
which you can reveal that you know information
without revealing what that information that you use to determine it.
And that's, I would say, probably like grad school-level, PhD-level mathematics
that I think would probably bore most people in the audience.
But I will give a shout out to I mean, on the AgLayer page, we have live streams and live coding sessions.
But like our DevRel team, like I know Brian Song is one of them that is very, very open to talking about all of that.
So if you guys are interested, I would definitely give.
Check out the Aglayer page and do a deep dive into it that way.
Thank you, man.
Thank you for really breaking that down for us.
You know, tying things back into just security of any kind.
I feel like, maybe i'm also explaining this
this incorrectly here but i always felt like that because these things sit in the back it doesn't
get the limelight that it deserves and when it comes down to proofs again people don't sometimes
they don't really talk about how things work they just want it to work right so it's totally
understandable totally understandable that uh that these things are not um the best explained
in our space.
Because at the end of the day, end users specifically,
specifically those coming into crypto for the first time,
they don't really sit down and discuss ZK pessimistic proofs, this or not.
They're just wondering, like, what the heck is a token?
And what is this?
How can I get this in my bank account?
But on that note, kind of as a segue, paving over four new end users in our space,
I would love to actually take the opportunity to once again pass the mic back to our friend Diego
for this to kick off this discussion. And that is how important, Diego, do you think the user
experience or the user interface is when it comes down to making things as easily adoptable for new end users in crypto.
Okay, so this is absolutely, absolutely really important.
Until now, we saw user experience in Web3.
It's a really bad angle of Web3 in the sense that it's impossible to onboard new users, Web2 users, to these kind of platforms
because they have to figure out gas.
They have to figure out the wallets, private keys, etc.
Literally impossible.
I can tell this by experience.
So definitely it's needed.
The user experience of Web3 needed to improve on this side,
like with tools like account abstractions.
So we already have all of this we really need
just to put this in all the application and make it seamless obviously to interact with
application across different chain is super important so i we need our users to be able to
like borrow an asset from another chain with liquidity that they have on the chain where
they are at the moment. So this is just one example of the many things that we can do with
cross-chain through cross-chain capabilities like Aglayer can offer. So we really need to move
forward with improving user experience and this is definitely the next big step for Web3, for sure.
For sure, man.
Thank you so much for that, Diego.
You know, as we move closer to what this ultimate UI UX could be,
let's actually go ahead and repaint that picture a little bit.
And, you know, let's hand the mic over to Martin to get his thoughts on this.
You know, if we had all the resources,
if everything were to align,
if all the stars were to align, Martin,
what would that ultimate seamless user experience
look like to you?
Good question.
I think linking back to what we said earlier,
you know, like the grail we must achieve
is performing at least as well
as the best Web2 interfaces,
you know, like that's the benchmark.
We should not benchmark against,
like I've seen recently people arguing about,
yeah, Phantom and Solana is performing so well
because you only need one signature versus two
when you're using MetaMask, you know.
Well, this is not the benchmark at all.
So yeah, just about, as Diego mentioned,
through account abstraction and good, well-tapped,
well-designed UX UI, being able to provide
at least as good interfaces as Web2 provides.
That also, well, I think there is a big, um, a big movement at the moment.
Well, we, with all the AI tools that emerged so fast recently, uh, like
combining, uh, uh, aggregation, uh, tools such as AgLayer, you know, which
basically at the end of the day help developers focus on the use case,
and put aside problematics such as fragmented liquidity.
And even top AI layers, you can build, and our team did spend some time building AI agents
that basically can do cross-chain yield seeking you know, basically which are use cases
that were hardly imaginable couple of years ago.
And we can only imagine that these
are going to get better and better.
Same thing goes with bridging basically.
So thanks to AgLayer,
you can start building very efficient,
fast, instant bridges.
That's something very important.
You know, you briefly mentioned to me the architecture
and yeah the profile aggregation that the target at the end of the day we divide with instant on
near near instant bridging which today uh crucially uh defaults the industry like
that really prevents lots of use cases from being really great.
So yeah, here is what we could say about this perfect or near perfect UX UI experience.
Thank you for that, Martin.
And, you know, performing as well as the best Web2 interfaces.
You know, I'm going to play with fire for um for a second here
martin because um i mean like i i kind of agree i'm also like i'm like 80 20 at this point and
i'll explain why it's because like i do i do um i do believe that yes web two obviously has a lot
more time like in the in the in the over in the overarching chronos right but also that's not to
say that web two is perfect obviously Web2 interfaces has their own problems.
And the question I wanted to follow up with you, Martin, is that,
do you think the advantages that Web2 interfaces provides
are effectively circumventing problems being encountered by Web2 interfaces?
What are your thoughts on that?
Good question.
Good question. thoughts on that um good question good question i would say well uh interestingly enough because
web2 value propositions are always pretty straightforward and simple as in um you you
need a bank uh that's going to be a banking app and it's going to be centralized in the back end
you know that's not even a question you need a game. It's going to be a mobile gaming app.
And there is no question behind that.
So at the end of the day, let's say the interface is part of the product you're selling.
And I would say only in crypto, basically, because we add this value proposition of being
trustless and decentralized and stuff, and it has to be built on the blockchain with all the constraints it brings,
interfaces become sort of a limiting factor.
You know, it's like you're fighting two battles at once, kind of, you know.
So, no, I would even argue that great interfaces
have created awesome products, you know,
that would have been so-so if you
just looked at the initial value proposition, like I'm thinking like Revolut, for instance,
it's just a bank, you know, and it's just the interface that's so great.
And maybe at some point Web3 can strive to achieve this sort of level.
I read a lot, we work with ecosystem projects on the stablecoin neobanks plays and narratives.
And this is going to make a big difference for sure.
Like if at some point we can circumvent all the constraints coming from banking days and stuff,
leveraging stablecoins to offer 24-7 instant banking experiences,
yeah, we'll have something regret in our hands.
But yeah, that's gonna require maybe a couple more years.
Indeed, you know, having 24 hours, like service, that's, that's already a step
towards the right direction, in my opinion.
But Octo, I actually saw you do the hand waving emotes.
I'm going to go ahead and honor that and send the mic over to you first.
Go for it, man.
Yeah. So on the UX front yeah though I agree like some of
the UX is in that too might be good but like what we can bring on the table is
like saw the things can already change like today when I want to go transfer
money from bank to another bank account I need to fill like uh 10 different kind
of information uh different information that uh while transferring money uh to international
accounts different information uh according to countries so uh web3 ux is already better here
that you just need an address no country nothing uh just gets
transferred so basically this is what web3 can give to web2 and there are some of the good
learnings that uh uh web3 is already uh already taking from the web2 like some of the social
integration social fire some of the game fire things how we can enhance better so i think uh ux uh with uh
better liquidity uh like these are not the wars at least uh currently a web2 user is solving like
bridging and that kind of thing so once the stances are clear after aglare launches and
like octo and that different kind of products actually focusing on
development of consumer apps goes live. Then we'll be on equal stances of
development in terms of UX. So I think things would surely change better.
Yeah you know we kind of danced around this as well, but it's, yeah, for the developers
too.
And Enhanced UX combined that with unified liquidity.
Not only does it improve the quality of life for consumers, but it also does the same for
developers.
Gotta show the depths, the love when we have the opportunity to do that.
Thank you so much for that, Octo.
Let's go ahead and toss it over to Diego and then we'll swing the mic back to Timmy and
Diana for some closing thoughts.
Take it away, Diego.
Okay, so I really much agree with the guys before me.
I would really say that, so we, in order to onboard the Web2 users to Web3, we have
to offer a UX that is similar to Web2 so that they will be comfortable in moving, but with something more.
This something more will be trustlessness
and more lucrative opportunities, we can say.
And how can we get these more lucrative opportunities?
We can get them by compose all the Lego bricks within DeFi.
So this is why we need a product like a layer,
because it will help us to provide these opportunities
in a more seamless way to all the users in a way
that they will just have their Web2 similar interface,
easy to use, they are already familiar with that,
but they will leverage lucrative opportunities across all the DeFi ecosystem.
For example, for real world assets, this would work really good because there are opportunities across different chains.
But this needs to be unified via a layer of interoperability, which aayer is the perfect representation for this.
Man, you know, coming into the space, I had a couple of unspoken doubts, but I will be,
I'll be very honest, Diego. I think a handful of those doubts have been effectively dispelled
after today's conversation. So thank you guys so much for that. And of course, you guys already
know what's up. I got to bring the mic back to my main man Timmy and our dear girl Diana
so first of all to me let me ask you this man in the perfect world how different how different
would the crypto landscape look like if liquidity fragmentation were effectively solved
to be solved. I think we would basically just be a single coherent financial system. Like that's,
that's really what it is. Like capital flows freely. You can move tokens, assets, whatever
you want without having to think you have different applications that can be used by anyone.
I think last week you talked about playing games.
And if a game's on an Xbox,
you can't play with your friends who have a PlayStation,
like that's going to go away.
We're just going to have, like, you can just move across.
And I would say the biggest thing would,
it would be so simple that anyone in crypto right now would feel comfortable
recommending it to their parents and i think that's like kind of the test of like okay what
is new tech and what's the user experience and how complicated is it like can boomers use it yes
okay then we we are there um because then everyone can access this.
I think everyone's here because we think it's a beautiful
and like enhancing it enhances our lives in some way.
And like once you can recommend that to other people
that may not have the technical knowledge you have,
like that's really what the landscape looks like.
And I would say more than anything,
we are going to stop talking about
like using the words crypto
and using the words on-chain
or blockchain or whatever.
And it's just going to be what it is.
Like you say, hey,
you should try out this application
or I like this or that
without having to talk about
the back-end infrastructure.
Spot on, Timmy.
You know, when we start to move away from the vernacular, that's when it's been truly
solved.
And I really do like your point about making it boomer friendly.
And of course, when we think boomers, I got to just throw my parents under the bus here.
But it's true, right?
It's true.
If my mom can bridge her earnings from playing Mahjong to like Candy Crush she's she's on board she is immediately there i guarantee you that but all jokes aside
it's going to pass the mic over to our dear diana and of course that is what are some upcoming
updates going on with aglare right now that we should be paying more attention to yeah so um
first i'll just do a brief recap of what is currently live with Aglare.
So right now the Unified Bridge is live and there are many chains connected to it.
That's why we have these awesome guests here speaking today, Lumia, Ternoa, Octo, and a bunch more.
So that's fully live and functioning along with the pessimistic proofs, which is what we were talking about earlier.
It's how we create security so that no chain can withdraw more assets than have been deposited on the Unified Bridge.
So those are two really key points.
What's coming next?
The biggest thing that we're looking forward to is multi-stack support. So this means allowing any chain
to connect to Aglare. Right now, it's just Polygon CDK chains. If the goal is to
unify all of Web3, then we need to create an environment that will allow any sort of
chain to connect. And so that's kind of the next big thing
that we're working on and working towards. We want EVM chains, layer twos, layer threes,
non-EVM chains, layer ones. We want everyone to be able to connect. And then beyond that,
And then beyond that, we are looking forward to fast interop. So this is simply for fast transactions. And that's simply for also user experience, right?
So you could make a transaction in one click between chains
and it will settle in less than Ethereum finality.
So those are the big things that we're looking forward to.
And yeah, to stay updated, please follow the Aglaire account on Twitter.
And then you can also visit aglaire.dev for any other updates, as well as links to the dev docs.
So yeah, that's what we're excited about.
I'm hella bullish on that, Diana.
You know, when you said the, like,
we want it faster, we want it now, it kind of sounded like, it reminded me of that classic,
the classic change that happened with Amazon, right? And it's like, and then that got me
thinking. It's kind of, it is kind of like that. AgLayer is building Web3 Prime, if you think
about it. But I just want to say, guys, this has been one of the most engaging spaces
I've ever participated in.
You know, I've never heard,
I've never seen so many hand raises,
so many educational takes.
So honestly, shout outs
to all of our awesome panelists
building to address
and solve liquidity fragmentation
like Eterno, Lumia, Octo, Aglayer.
We got to do a part two sometime, guys.
You know, continuation of the same topic
with the same panel. Let's get this. But that being said, ladies and gentlemen,
this is going to mark the end of our space for today. Once again, thank you so much to all of
our awesome panelists for joining in on today's conversation. And of course, thank you guys in
the audience, all 170 of you. Shout out to you guys for dropping those likes, comments, and
retweets. We really do appreciate all the love and support.
And one last time,
make sure everybody is following
the Ag Lair House account
and remember to turn on
those notifications
so you guys don't miss out
on any of the latest updates.
But until then,
this is going to be Ice,
Diana, and Timmy
signing off
and we'll see you guys
in the next one.
Peace! in the next one peace Thank you.
Speaker
Ternoa 2.0
from
Ternoa
Okto 🐙
from
OKTO Token
