does anyone ever use these like soundboard sound effects in twitter spaces seems corny to me
how's it going i don't think we've met directly before but i uh know you from twitter
yeah that's right uh thanks to humpty's uh space proficiency right nice to nice to come together again
what do you go by what's your what's your first name i'm Adam Adam Adam good to meet
you i knew it wasn't AJ but i didn't remember exactly what it was
AJ never stuck what can i say what's actually i'll keep the personal questions to a non-public forum
so that we don't docs ourselves what was your high school mascot and uh what's the middle
name of your first kiss uh yeah those password constructors really work wonders i mean
isn't this a great way to kick off an identity conversation
where are you based see i did it again never mind uh reading it reading anything good lately
oh man i i just finished uh ministry for the future oh kim staley robinson
oh god i loved that book and i love everything kim staley robinson has ever written i was uh
i think i was like in fifth grade when i read the uh mars trilogy roasted my brain
this is my first kim kim staley robinson i've been recommended the the mars trilogy next i i just
i absolutely loved the kind of the story arc with minister for the future the fact that like
blockchain was one of his big solutions it was great it was so good um and then i actually he
just wrote a book on the high sierra on like basically hiking and camping in the high sierra
that is pretty it's gorgeous it's a really beautiful book but it's it's not science fiction
it's just non-fiction about about hiking in the mountains he's such an interesting guy and such
a good writer and um i mean uh loved ministry for the future i gotta name i gotta not name drop
something but i gotta share something uh while we wait for humpty um he gave this talk in like a
like a panel or a lecture or something and i've got to dig it up on the internet i'll dig it up
and i'll dm it to you later but um this was this was like not well not that long ago but
long enough ago that it was before generative ai was part of the conversation and he was talking
i want to say it was like maybe 2015 2016 talking to i think a university and someone asked him like
what his most optimistic vision of the future with regard to economics um looked like and um
you know because a lot of a lot of stories in science fiction involve you know dystopian
none of us have jobs and we're all dead uh kind of kind of storyline and he had this answer
where he said um i think i see an optimistic trend with carbon sequestration and environmental
remediation where many people can make a good living by being outside in nature and becoming
like little field experts and you know hiking and exploring and taking data samples and uh
restoring ecosystems and just kind of almost like returning to a financially incentivized
hunter-gatherer lifestyle and i just loved the idea of millions of people making a good
living by walking around the national parks and you know doing science and uh environmental
remediation so not related to anything other than kim stanley robinson is uh the goat i just realized
that my personal account appears to be booted on one for everyone on my desktop i appear to
still be on here but that was weird when he said waiting for hunky to come back i was like
what are you waiting for me to do oh yeah i see you i see you on ontology and you're like
echoing and weirdly quiet and then i see your personal account is just a little sitter
yeah i'm connected um okay let me leave and come back from that other account
because that was weird i was i was up here
we might be getting rugs just to give you an fyi um do you seem to be the symptoms of
ragging how about now nope all right well can you hear me from the ontology account
you you're you're underwater but yeah i was gonna say you sound like you're rolled up in like a
persian rug if that's what you mean let's try this can you hear me from the ontology account
way better so much okay so there's this whole setup i have to be able to speak from two devices
so i can host these from the ontology account but also speak from my personal account
um and i tend to sometimes have some technical issues wait
okay i don't know what's going on for my personal account i'm not going to try i'm going to speak
from the ontology account for the time being uh until my uh personal account disappears from
this space and then we'll try it again but anyways gm everybody i'm gonna speak from here
for a minute i'm gonna set the stage uh we're waiting for glory to come up uh there might be
a few other folks that come through but basically today's space is really to kind of set the scene
for what could potentially be a much larger collaboration across different players in the
identity and reputation space so just to give you a bit of like background i mean i've hosted these
spaces now for over a year definitely maybe even over two years to be to be honest um and they
kind of wander across a variety of topics always bringing it back to uh self sovereignty uh to the
digital identity space uh how to build reputation um and we've had you know a lot of interesting
projects come through but really eth denver for me was like a reset in terms of like how we can
be a little bit more intentional with the way that we host these spaces um and especially
seen as how there were so many events excuse me happening across denver where we were having
these conversations and so gloria that that she's she's someone who have collaborated actually in the
past uh previously at ontology we both co-founded and built orange protocol so you know have a lot of
have a good rapport with her um and she hosted an event at eth denver that basically brought together
reputation builders to kind of create some sort of like think tank in terms of like what are the
challenges in the reputation space what are you building is there any way to like building some
sort of like synergistic collaboration between both projects um and that actually went off really
and we actually put together a telegram group anybody who's building in this space who wants to
be a part of it let me know um dm i guess me when i come back up on the stage um so i can go ahead
and set that up for you but really was um trying to understand so we got a call earlier this week
and we're trying to understand how we can maxim maximally uh i guess build um in collaboration
with everybody who's there in terms of being able to you know create value for one another but also
just for the ecosystem at large that said i really want to hear firstly from the people who are on
stage about what they're building and some of the things that they're working on probably uh more
interestingly anyways uh because i think that by framing the things that we're working on we can
start to index if you will the space that we occupy like so ceramic and heirloom and ontology
to see if there's any synergies already and start to build out a collaborative um you know space
for us to come back to home or to these spaces to track kind of any updates and things that we've
been able to do independently but also things that we're doing collaboratively hopefully that makes
sense so why don't i just hand it off to adam real quick and just give me a brief intro to who you are
what you're building and some of the challenges that you guys are you know kind of um discovering
right now are working towards in terms of like maybe the reputation space specifically sure yeah
so thanks first of all humpty for having me here really appreciate this it was great meeting you
at denver and um now getting more deeply connected to the efforts that you're pushing forward is it's
it's fascinating because you're certainly thinking about a lot of the same stuff that
we're thinking about at ceramic uh for folks who don't know uh ceramic is a decentralized data
network um we sit somewhere between the off-chain world we're built primarily upon IPFS and
specifically the IPLD layer uh and the on-chain world because we roll up everything inside the
ceramic network onto a merkle tree and anchor that to uh therium or any EDM compatible chain
periodically based on the volume of data coming into the network so we kind of are in this
unique space between on-chain and off-chain but really our focus is on verifiable data and that
verifiability comes from anchoring all of this data to to the blockchain but we're also concerned
with mutable data the way we see blockchains designed to design really well for transaction
data around scarce assets but they're expensive to transact on and they're not really super
scalable and so we're focused on all of the other data that applications use to build on that
that not scarce data but plentiful and luminous data that that backs up applications as well as
mutable and most of the data that individuals users interact with inside of applications
can change over time can be updated can be altered edited and so that's that's really
kind of the area of data we're focused on what we found is that reputation is the probably easiest
most near-term grokable use case for this type of uh of data infrastructure
really make decisions about how to treat users based on their reputation or the previous activity
and so um the the use cases that we've really kind of like leaned into and found uh to be
most mature have been primarily defined by this kind of concept of a reputation probably the most
concrete one to point to is gitcoin passport they store all their stamp data on ceramic so
basically an attestation that the individual has some aspect of uh of activity sometimes in web two
sometimes in web three and they score on top of that data to come up with a uniqueness score
for anti-civil use cases um another really interesting and exciting one we're working with
is the metamask permissionless snaps products so they're allowing users to
offer reviews both ux and security reviews of applications and then
system to this platform or their apps platform for developers based on the trust score that
comes out of those reviews that trust score will be calculated by karma three also written back to
to ceramic and so we're starting to see these like really interesting use cases form around
these kind of like trust systems or reputation systems and i think that the area where it's
it's most interesting for us to continue pressing forward is on the composability of that data on
who uses that data who uses it where um why they feel that data is interesting possible to
use obviously yeah an attestation from gitcoin passport is something that a lot of teams have
started building or kick-starting their own data sets on top of we've seen that be a kind of a major
trend especially with a lot of tools that are kind of creating these audience insight offerings
and then that really starts to bring up the the next question really around the economics
of shared data and composable data which is if somebody is writing data to some kind of shared
and open data ecosystem how is that data value how is it used who's using it what's
the exchange of value look like around on top of that data and this this begets all the questions
around standardization reusability how data is designed and deployed obviously the devil's
in the details here but this is kind of our vision for where ceramic fits first with reputation
data but we are not limited to that use case and yeah these are a lot of the questions we're
exploring with developers today and creating products. Thanks so much Adam that was quite
comprehensive and I think definitely lends itself to maybe some conversations around collaboration
and and like how we can each support one another but before we get there I definitely want to give
Nick an opportunity to introduce himself I know I personally have like I guess I've been interacting
with like Nick's team for some time but it was only recently that I got to connect with Nick personally
so I'm very excited to have you up here again for the second space so that we can keep talking
about like what you're building and kind of identifying some areas of collaboration as well.
Thanks, thanks Humpty. So I want to start with a really weird mental model but I think it's
directionally accurate. When I first started working with blockchain primitives and identity
as a set of use cases I felt have you have you read this thing about how so much renewable
energy is coming online in all over the world but especially in the United States and the
biggest problem isn't deploying new solar and wind generation stations but actually
hooking it into the grid is like the biggest bottleneck is that ringing a bell
to anyone yep so okay thanks for that Adam. So basically when I first kind of realized the
power of these of these technologies I felt like I discovered this you know nuclear power plant
and all I wanted to do was run around with this like 120 volt like plug and find a place to plug
it into a wall and finding that place for us was really really tricky until about six months ago
when we realized that we could take a use case that everybody encounters often in a recurring
way that's live events and we could take these these technologies take this decentralized
architecture and not just arbitrarily apply it to the use case of events but could unlock
kind of superpowers based on the architecture. So to give you a specific example so what does
heirloom do heirloom is a decentralized identity platform our first product is an event product
we let any any company any organization any event organizer stand up a beautiful simple
event registration page you can list tickets for free or charge for them if you'd like
we've modeled some of the ux lovingly and affectionately on on luma but when you buy a
ticket your ticket is a verifiable credential when you onboard into the ecosystem you create
a decentralized identity that is currently on polygon but we're going to be multi ledger
later this year the event organizer has an organizational did and every ticket is signed
by the private key signature of the organizer and the attendee why go to all that trouble
for something as simple as events i'm still having trouble explaining it so let me practice on you
all and i would love feedback on this i'd rather just tell you a story our first tech conference
we did we did a web3 conference in atlanta last fall and in addition to giving uh attendees
checking in really really fast check-in times which they loved and appreciated so our average
check-in time to a conference is about seven seconds and it's not so obvious that the reason
we're able to do that is because we're able to do local uh basically uh local cryptographic proofs
using private key signatures without having to kind of phone home to uh to ensure that that ticket
is valid in that exact moment so it's really really fast it's really really privacy preserving
um organizers get much better data with the consent of their attendees about what's happening
at their event but i think the real power is this is kind of demonstrated in the following
anecdote um we also worked at this conference not just to allow attendees to hold tickets that are
signed by a private key signature associated with their did but we worked with other startups that
were exhibiting at that conference to integrate a single sign-on api that we built that uses
private key signatures dids and verifiable credentials why do we do that because um
we all know because we're a lot of us are working in in blockchain and self-sovereign identity that part
of the power of these primitives is that they're composable and portable where does that rubber
meet the road um what we realized that a ticket to an event is like a little genesis block
of user data and we don't want to use that without the permission of the user but with
the permission of the user this becomes i mean this is a nerdy way to describe it but almost
like a solid state api for any other company to reference with the permission of the holder of that
data so what do we do right you've been doing a million conferences you go to a conference floor
you've got you know a booth there's here's the coin base booth here's the you know okx booth
whatever and often the people working at those companies are there because they want to connect
with you and i think they're like the dream the wish position is that they actually onboard you
into their product but that's really high friction i'm sure you've seen a lot of tactics right like scan
my badge or like sign up in a google form and give me your wallet address so i can airdrop you later
in nft and we can connect or you know connect with me on telegram what instead what we did was
with those other startups at this conference when they integrated our single sign on api
they had a qr code when any attendee uh walked up to their booth and they had a conversation
that company could say hey if you want to try our product um scan this qr code it's actually
going to ask for your permission to share the data in your ticket that you have because you're
physically here right now like everyone walking this floor used heirloom to get into this space
and we're going to onboard you in three seconds into our product and we're going to do that by
referencing the data that's present in your ticket as structured json ld data so no need to
redundantly ask you for your first name last name email address wallet address etc etc whatever data
you've provided in whatever data you've provided to the event organizer when you bought the ticket
is now referenceable with your permission by a third party exhibitor at that conference so
uh self critique that it takes a long time to explain and i'm still using really technical
language i'm working every day to try to refine this but that's like the best story i think about
every day of what we're doing and why it's powerful and we just want to build really
great experiences for normal people that are built by this powerful technology and then unlock
completely new user experiences that haven't been possible before because prior to our platform if
you wanted to do that great startup x you now need to go build an event right integration or
aluma integration maybe that doesn't even work maybe they don't even have an epi right um the
fact that we're giving people the ability to own and take custody of their own data and then
actually make it useful gets really really exciting to me and our first the first rung of the ladder
we're grabbing onto is in live events yeah so i guess after listening to you i think i'm pretty
clear um and definitely uh we can work together to kind of make that a much shorter introduction
if that's what you wanted please um but like um i guess also just kind of go here real quick and
just we're on the ontology space i wanted to give them you know um a hat tip in terms of
what they do and where they fit into this space right so i mean for me personally like i was
building ontology like many moons ago like three four years ago uh before i actually even like
connected with the team like i was i was one of the validators on their network i was building
you know kind of like this i guess node network across you know multiple multiple blockchains
um so that's how i first got to know them but not too long after i kind of really got intrigued
by this idea of decentralized identity which is kind of the reason why i'm also excited about
the work that erloom is doing um and i was really excited to see how your application worked when i
went to an event at usc uh which is a university here uh in los angeles uh where i'm at and um
yeah for me that that was all very interesting both in terms of the kind of opportunity that's
presented in like self-sovereignty with your identity but also like in the composability i
guess of your identity and one of the things that i quickly did was i worked with a team
and my own team as well to develop on top of this um i guess tech infra right this technology
and i built a reputation protocol called orange protocol which ontology still operates um and the
way the reason why and the reason why i'm excited about that is it presents an opportunity for
people to kind of make these uh claims uh that are provable but are also you know private and
self-sovereign so they it's up to them you know who they wish to reveal this information to
but there's still a layer of composability there um beyond that again i think at the time when
we built orange protocol we were looking at a two camps that really had set up quite uh
you know staunch positions uh whether everything should be off chain or everything should be on
chain uh anybody who's been in the identity space the spt space for any amount of time will remember
what i'm talking about where people were saying like all data everything should be off chain
there was another group that's saying is like no everything should be on chain which is i think
funny because when i spoke at the proof of panel a proof of data summit uh and hosted a panel
there i kind of started the the the paddle the same way because i wanted to see if like the
camps had softened a bit uh but i think that there was still like these strong positions
whether things should be on chain and off chain but it's really cool to see that both with what we
did with orange protocol but also like with uh you know companies that are projects like ceramic are
doing where they're uh still looking to integrate uh the way that you can operate with both right
so like we said why not both like we can do off chain private attestations that are self-sovereign but
if the user wishes to also create some on chain primitive we can but we'll abstract all that
private data away so we're not revealing any information uh without the user's kind of consent
um so yeah anyways i only say that to kind of share like the space that ontology occupies and
the space that i personally occupy and i'm interested in so to loop this back in you know
i think adam you know when he was talking about ceramic was talking about like the the space of
like uh data in which they operate and the potential uh i guess opportunities that are
presented by the products that they're building but also i think recognizing what um nick was
saying with heirloom in terms of like the event space and you know how that they've productized
identity if you will an attendance i wonder if we can bring this all together to talk about
you know reputation um specifically because there's for several reasons the first one
because that's kind of like the topic that was on hand here too i think it could potentially
position this conversation um or future conversations from what we learned here um so yeah one thing
i wanted to say about nick's kind of um introduction is i really do think that people's attendance
right and i don't want to compare like what the heirloom app is doing too much to perhaps
but i mean there is some overlap there in terms of like the attendance proving that you were
at an event um but i think that it's done very differently i think one of the things that i wanted
to touch on here is like that your attendance your participation in something like it takes
effort and that effort is rewarded by uh you know kind of issuing these attestations or
reputation if you will um through products like heirloom what are what do you think are like
ways that like people can look at maybe a product like heirloom and seek to understand about the
value of that reputation uh in terms of their attendance and how they can leverage that
reputation you know what whether they wish to or not um you know within the same product or outside
of it maybe this question is more for nick yeah um i think i have a really straightforward answer
event organizers and and uh this is coming at a really interesting time because i wasn't thinking
about this a month ago and our customers have started talking to us about it so it's on my
mind and then we don't have a solution here event organizers want to be able to forecast
who's coming to their events and if you rsup to a free event or even pay to an event but you
don't show up uh if you're just one amongst a thousand people it's not noticed but i think
it's pretty self-evident that if you organize an event and nobody shows up for it that's a
huge fail for an event so understanding and building an ecosystem where incentives are aligned
where attendees can be can have a reputation narrowly in the event space have a reputation
for showing up when they say they're going to show up or having an incentive to say if you're not
going to show up just let us know hit a button and um hit a button and uh you're we'll let another
person in that's on the wait list and we won't count on you being there and we're going to reward you
for the transparency and communication i think there's a huge economic incentive um very clear
and very present in the event space for reputation and um uh that just seems obvious to me we
haven't productized that yet but i wanted to mention it as an obvious it's like reputation's
like applied identity right and um this is one corner of reputation as a topic that we're
thinking about in our limited uh domain and um and doing that in a way that's privacy preserving
and sensitive to private user data but also aligns incentives between organizers and attendees is very
interesting to me yeah i mean i i tend to agree um i think that there's a lot of value to organizers
i mean i so i personally just organized an event myself uh hey Denver uh and as you know i know
other people on this stage also did um so i i think that there's tremendous value in being able to
uh unlock i guess the uh reputation of individual attendees uh but also rewarding that to those as
to those attendees um i wonder if there's like anything specifically when it comes to
um i guess how we leverage those incentives because i'm always kind of thinking about like
incentive alignment and how to build better incentives um especially using like the the
crypto rails right or like yeah cryptographic rails because uh you know not everything necessarily
that is crypto is on chain um how we can leverage like these crypto rails to create better incentives
i wonder maybe Adam you can speak to this in terms of like how ceramic is looking at
the incentive alignment between uh users uh the platform and the brands that are using the
technology the infra that you're building because i know that you personally um had shared with me
some stuff that's happening over at ceramic in terms of working groups uh with kind of
what a very popular space uh in the last few months which has been points
so maybe you can speak to this uh in terms of those incentive alignments
sure yeah and thanks for the setup there points we think are really interesting because they
specifically are incentives they are they're deployed to be used as
in some systems either economic systems replication systems maybe a game maybe a
you set up for an airdrop in the future and what we see points as really reflecting
is a it's a statement of value on top of some verifiable activity i logged into an app
i made a transaction that verifiable activity can be interpreted as points in some some system
i look at this as economic systems the points themselves represent value in the economic system
um and so i i think as far as like user data user alignment of incentives
that you kind of always surfaces for me here is you know what use what data is a user
whether implicit or or explicit um and what decisions to those users
and for a very long time now operated in a world where those decisions are very much not explicit
very much not even implicit uh and more towards a explicit understanding of what data users share
with with app developers i think there's a lot of like fear media portrayals
with user data um but i i also think there's just more of a nuanced um understanding uh that
users are starting to now uh at the end of the day uh you know the the vast vast majority
of users don't really you run this calculus every time they sign into an application um what
they're really looking for is ease of use uh and so the incentive alignment there is just around
whatever is easy i will i will use to do what i want to do and you don't really think about
data or incentive alignment um i think in the web 3 world we have a different profile
of user that does think a little bit more carefully about this and so it becomes this
uh you know a bit bit of a crucible that we get to to to test inside of to kind of see
implementations of thinking uh one of the most interesting ways and i can tie kind of that like
expository thinking a little bit back to i think some some concrete opportunities um one of the
ways where i think you we we all have experienced our data being used against us is the wrong
portrayal of this but uh you direct to target us um is with ads and whether that data is contextual
based on uh the the websites that you you've searched or the the terms that you've you've
created in google uh or whether that data is social based on your connections inside of facebook or
other social platforms um all of these data points that that we have associated with us are at the
end of the day used to create value on the web by propping up the this this advertising economy
um most of the big tech firms operate most of the the best majority of their revenue
based on advertising dollars so this all this all tracks back to like the value of user data
and i think what we're now seeing interestingly in web 3 and one of the big takeaways i had to meet
denver was that people are starting to really understand the value of data uh in web 3 and
are starting to build these ad networks uh around around that data um i spent eight years in
mobile gaming and ad tech and one in web 3 is because i saw how the sausage was made and i thought
there was an opportunity to kind of correct that going forward uh using blockchain tech and so
i'm actually fairly excited that we're at this moment where we get to kind of be at this genesis
moment of what what ad tech effectively looks like in web 3 and it's kind of cracked open
this world of conversations that we're now just starting to have with all these teams that are
acting as data aggregators um where it costs a lot of money to to aggregate all of these these data
signals that you then build some some analysis on top of to then offered back to somebody else who
wants to target users and so that kind of uh that economy that's that's kind of starting to
arise around user data is super super interesting for us because to on one hand
of your revenue flowing through targeting mechanisms on the other hand uh there's also some
opportunity to collaborate and talk opposable uh set of data uh with with user reputation
data that can travel with the user throughout uh throughout different ecosystems and and this
is kind of the other piece of where uh ceramic comes in all of the data on ceramic is is user
sovereign data users are signing the the transactions that that actually write that data and so users
can actually elect what data to some kind of uh pools and oftentimes and this is like kind of
the most exciting if we're starting to see emerge is that this now opens a channel to have
users themselves participate in that revenue generation cycle around all this user data
that was like all over the place but it certainly is an area where you're trying to to kind of create
a sharper hypothesis around as we as we started to see this uh this uh this activity forming
yeah and i see nick's hand open open uh raised but i do want to make sure that i i keep the
conversation moving in this direction so nick definitely ask or share what you want to share but
i did want to also ask specifically to you in terms of like nick you raised your hands and hello guys
sorry i've joined late hilarious can you not hear me i'm humpty sidekick polaris nice to meet you
guys polaris can you hear me and nick you wanted to say something bro hello and anybody
yeah i can hear you hunty oh okay uh he let polaris know uh that my players go down
and then come back up that way he can hear me yeah he just hearted um i i'd like to ask uh i'd
like to ask you all a question because i'm still forming my thinking on the following and i think
adam talking about ad networks is is directionally spot on so my question is what are you all seeing
in web three that is working when it comes to um when it comes to things like ad networks and
when it comes to things like uh reputation management because uh to contextualize my question very
briefly this seems like a very interesting place where prior uh incentive systems from web two and
earlier completely fall apart uh in a in a decentralized and self-sovereign um ecosystem it's like we're
playing by different rules i think of web three is like i want to express myself and i want to
paint my face uh to be however i i want to reflect my personality and web two and before is like a
paintball gun fight right where anyone can strafe me with whatever color paintball pellets that they
want to um in a world where um in a world where negative attestations i don't want to say that
they're good they actually kind of creep me out but negative asset attestations like nick didn't
pay his student loans right um are central to web two and earlier reputation systems and it seems like
a world in which the end user is opting in and taking custody of their own data that that removes
the incentive for an end user to say sure i'll claim i'll claim a po app or a verifiable credential
or whatever that says i'm a deadbeat like it just seems self-evident that that's not going to
happen so i'm curious what if anything you all have seen um that has been working and how we
might end up addressing um the seemingly important negative attestations um that exist in all kinds
of incentive systems and rating systems um prior to web three does that question make sense
yep if i'll go for it bro um you know when you were saying that i think i think what you're
what you're getting at here is how are these incentive systems actually being tied back to
the user to allow them to see the value of what or see the you know see the impact
of you what what their acceptance of of any attestation let's call them attestations
generally for now um means not sure if i'm actually interpreting that correctly
uh kind of what i'm kind of getting at here is that there's um there are different actors
and the different actors have different incentives and this seems like a solved problem pre web three
that now web three is blowing up all the rules and um i think it's interesting and exciting but
i don't know where the dust is going to settle because like i said with the with the loan
repayment paradigm right it you know if i want to you know leave town and start over my identity
in a new town and it's 1850 i can do that um i guess the negative quote unquote attestation
is nobody knows who this guy is that just moved into town i'm not going to loan in money
um but like stuff worked that way and if i want to get a big loan i need to prove my credit
worthiness um and show that i don't have quote unquote negative attestations against
my identity or my credit score and in web three that incentive is removed uh typically um i don't
think there's a way and if there is it probably is creepy of transmitting a negative attestation
to someone's uh on-chain identity um and i'm that that i don't know if that clarified or if
it just further confused but that's how i'm thinking about this yeah i mean i think what
you might end up seeing are these like uh positive attestations that in the absence of you might be
able to assume uh your negative activity that there's like a positive attestation saying i
did pay my my student loan uh so in so in absence um so in an absence of data is effect is a de facto
negative attestation if i was running analysis on top of it i certainly would imagine that okay
and does that you know uh go for it pullers you know what it is uh nick like it's a very
interesting uh brainstorming uh point of view and i've got like quite a few points like which connect
to that i'm not hearing players does anybody yeah i i'm hearing players right guys i'm going
to leave and join again so that yeah aj can hear me as well two seconds great uh sorry what i guess
what i would add uh while we wait for polaris to jump on here again is i think you know you
you're asking a question of whether like people are going to self-attest and whether people are
going to be self-attesting to positive and negative actions um for themselves or if they will
basically take claims on their identity that are negative or positive which actually it's
a really interesting question you ask right because i think if you think about it in that way
i can't imagine someone making any negative claims against themselves
nor accepting any negative claims against themselves and if that's the reality then
how valuable is that data right or how um what's the word i'm looking for maybe less so valuable more so
like how much should you trust in those identity systems if someone is not going to accept anything
that is negative about themselves but they have done negative things right like let's keep it in
the web3 sense if someone is scamming folks um you know of their money in web3 you know using
i don't know faulty contracts or you know whatever in whatever fashion they they're they're a
known scammer what is going to be the method by which we're going to be able to identify them
in the ecosystem or should we not should they be allowed to you know exist as much as anyone else
in terms of their reputation being unscathed or undamaged that's a really interesting question and
you know i think that there needs to be some approval
you know i don't know something to do with uh shared you know kind of um
i don't know if the word shared proofs is the right way of saying it but really where there is a
group agreements that override maybe individual attestations i don't know if that's i don't even
know if i'm saying it the right way but i'm thinking about it one way really as a way to like ensure
that there are systems in place to govern where maybe uh people choose not to participate in that
governance and the best way i can think of or the best system i can think of right now for some
reason is like claros i don't know if you all are familiar with that but it's a system where there
are you can bring an issue to that uh to arbitration if you will and that group will then make a
um you know which is an independent uh third party that will then make a decision
and i don't know if these individuals would then make that attestation
hopefully you follow and hopefully that's an answer to what you're asking mick i'm bring pilaris back
did i get rugged now i hear you humpty
okay so i don't know if that answered your question nick yeah it kind of does
i think what you're describing is kind of oh there's pilaris right guys can everyone hear me
yeah perfect yep but can you hear us because you couldn't hear me positively i can hear everyone
great stuff right okay so you know this is like five or six uh code processes now because we've
discussed so much um i'm gonna quickly go through all of the points which i've got if i can remember
them point number one you know back in the days back in the days in like julia caesar's time right
democracy was being established but sometimes right the caesar would become so powerful that
you know people wouldn't be able to go directly to the caesar and be like yo you're not doing things
correctly so what they would do is they would start smearing the walls okay and they would
start saying bad things about and like and then in ancient wrong like this was a trend like you know
you would like if they don't like anything about their rulers they would start smearing they
would like start preparing like theaters where they would like in a subliminal manner they would
be like insinuating that like you know the leader is not or they'll be making fun of them
so we've got this dynamics of group dynamics in front of us just by looking at history we can
tell that there's like some sort of a group dynamics when you when you like oppress or when
you create a situation where people are not allowed to speak so in an anonymous manner people do tend
to get their information across so we need to keep that thought process on the back of our heads
and then move forward onto web 2 web 2 made a lot of people individuals like you know
or companies or organizations extrapolate maximum value out of users without giving returning the
maximum value back i'll give you an example like amazon would have this like comment section where
they would be like loading up a product and then you would have users commenting about the
durability of the product and that was done users was doing that for free there was no
incentivization but there was just helping generally because we as human beings we generally
like to help each other and and and and i think when the data protection european data protection
aspect came into being and there was a big hoo-ha and i was actually in the business school at
that point when this whole thing was going on what i realized was that like user data and all the
plava which comes with user data in terms of privacy in terms of utilizing their privacy their data
selling it on on onto the web uh like you know false identity identity and different aspects of
like you know that data being uh like hacked or like you know exposed or being stored in the
incorrect manner created like the whole european union to come up with laws which would protect
the users but deep down inside there's a huge correlation between all these actions and i think
web 3 is a is a is a is a result to all of that that we can learn from web 2 like we do definitely
need some sort of a sequence or a system in place where we are working as an organized hive
but at the same time we can't let few actors utilize that and maybe uh and we can't just
rely on their uh promising us to be a good actor to be good actors we need to create a system
which basically takes all of their uh promises out of the equation and and you work on a
on a system which is based on productivity and value rather than just belief so i think
this question is like more of a brainstorming aspect you know where we we need to like sit
down and literally brainstorm that you know the the lessons which we learned from the nfts
for example like you know you guys asked a question like how can you tell just by looking at some
some web 3 credentials but like you know people we asked a lot when we was trading in nfts we
could just literally look at the wallet and we could tell if someone's on goblin mode or not
and that is a difference between like you know buying an nft which is uh you know what's his name
triggered as uh like stolen or not you know and then there was a question of like if someone's
like bought an nft right which has been triggered as stolen but they bought it in full uh what's
his name uh like you know without knowing that that thing was stolen how do you deal with that
and what i've seen in terms of like observing from a social experiment perspective what i've seen was
that like you know we all grouped together and we did identify bad actors and we didn't need their
credentials to identify them and then by and the power of blockchain and the power of like you
know blockchain intelligence allows us to connect everything with everything and it gives us an
overview so moral of the story and i think it always comes down to that that education i think
for web 3 and not only for web 3 a slot but for everyone else that like you know how powerful this
system is where we can use identity without actually using identity or let's say in a way
like we thought identity was like you know you just need to know if someone can do something
it's got the capacity to do that we don't need to know what their geopolitical location is we need
value we need productivity if all of those credentials are met that even if that person is a bad actor
as long as that person is doing the good thing it's okay you know and if it is a bad actor all
those educated perspectives should be placed which prevents that bad actor from forming again
and and that would be my last point if we can create a system which is happening anyway
you know we're realizing it like like from trial and error like you know that like for example
what's happening with the nft industry right now like you realize that like if you're going
to approach web 3 we can't approach it in closed groups we have to open those groups up
so so like you know meta is changing we're learning from our from our from from our
previous experiences and i think we've still got a long way to go but we've we've come far
and yes this answer is like a ambiguous statement really which doesn't really
pinpoint anything because the question is like that as well we're dealing with a big massive monster
here and we need to approach it from from a holistic perspective like a full circle rather
than just one aspect that's just my take um to go for it yeah no i just want to recognize
the time too i want and i want to respect other people's time here um i think for me what i've heard
um from this conversation and hopefully this is a jumping off point for the next conversation
because i do think that i'd like to be a bit more intentional with the spaces and our guests
that we invite over and the topics uh to try to build up uh to something uh more than just a
one hour chat is that we have a group of people here that are building technology on which we can
build with uh whether that be at the identity layer whether that be at the reputation layer
whether that be at the data layer um there's also opportunities and challenges in terms of like how
we may uh perceive reputation and how we may uh make attestations uh of these of this reputation
um so maybe for me at least it would be interesting on the next conversation to think about
some of the socially uh i guess adopted or accepted reputation systems i know this is
something that Polaris is just starting to talk about um that we can learn from uh and maybe adopt
into our own reputation systems um and then the other if we have time and i would love to explore
further how some of these mechanisms are already in play right um you know one of the reputation
systems i've been researching a lot i would say in the past few months uh i've written a
little bit about it and certainly spoke about it uh in December is the space the area of loyalty
right in terms of like how individual uh activity whether it be you know towards a brand a product
um how that there are ways to signal i guess that loyalty and reward that loyalty
but that may be extending ourselves too far i mean i think really having a debate on social
reputation systems and then maybe their equivalent uh kind of practices on chain and off chain
or with cryptographic um you know technology would be a good start and i think the people who are
on stage please come back um next week i expect a few more folks that express interest to join this
to in this call would would be showing up i know the daylight savings time here in the us
has affected some of the timing around the world to be able to get some of our friends that are
in europe and other parts of the world as well because it conflict this this space conflicted
with some of their scheduled times i know players that was an issue for you too but i appreciate
you coming on uh with that said thank you to adam thank you to nick for coming on and sharing a bit
about what you do and kind of some of the challenges as you see them when it comes to
identity reputation i do hope to see you again next time or next week here at the same
well maybe not the same time i think we may need to go back to the utc so it'll be at 1 pm
pacific daylight time and i think that'll be 4 pm eastern time
thank you everybody thanks for having us