Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
BvB Trader's Corner
Recorded: March 27, 2025 Duration: 1:08:03Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, crypto traders explored the evolving landscape of trading strategies, highlighting trends in DeFi and AI projects, while also announcing innovative features for the Bull versus Bear platform that aim to enhance user experience and yield opportunities.
Full Transcription
nice that also runs my uh local neutron server nice um well awesome well uh well welcome everybody
to uh the stream for those that are that are watching um or listening back to this uh we are
here live talking about trading on bull versus bear and just in general. So we've got deployed on who built bull versus bear.
We've got two,
hopefully three if Sam joins later,
but two of the traders that have recently won the bull versus bear trading
competition on here as well.
We've got Sandro as well as John DeGratis.
So we'll,
we'll we'll hear from them as well.
And like some of their thoughts on trading in general, trading on bull versus bear, some of the narratives that they're excited about.
Maybe a good place to start actually is like, I'll throw this over to Sandro to start, but when did you guys start trading crypto?
What got you into it originally?
got you into it originally um i think like my really first trade was i think like in 2019 so
like so before the d5 summer but just like really occasionally right uh like i wouldn't call it like real trading i bought some btc bought some eve uh hold it the most time
spent it a little bit on some markets because there was the currency for it right so um yeah
that was like my my first touch with crypto i would say and then i got really into it I would say like yeah I was lucky also with being at the right
place I would say or with the right people like most important yeah during DeFi summer 20. so
when like really hot I mean at that time it's still good, right? So, but like from these days perspective,
it's maybe a little bit outdated, right?
So at that time, like just like basic stuff like Curve or Aave was like really, really hot.
Yeah, like all the protocols like Frax was really intriguing for me.
So that was like the starting point would say
where i got more into trading but also in parallel i yeah got much more into crypto i was like
researching the projects i think it's also a little bit like a normal journey so if you trade
you most of the time you're interested what kind of asset it is.
Right. So back story, tokenomics, etc, etc.
And then also maybe if it's a cool community and it really depends.
Right. So if all markets are green and a lot of new money comes in, community are thriving.
Right. So at the moment we see a little bit uh harsher time right
so liquidity wise and it's also reflecting in communities but yeah at that time it was everything
extremely like thriving and uh hence like really intriguing right so you could join like discords
and having have like a lot of fun like with uh with like-minded people.
And yeah, that was the start, I would say, for me,
really in 20, but my first rates, I would say, somewhere in 19.
Gotcha. Nice, nice.
What about you, Depoydan? When did you first start in trading crypto?
What got you into it?
I started mining Bitcoin in, I think it was like 2010.
Sold most of them for next to nothing.
Lost hundreds of Bitcoin's leverage trading.
So, I mean, I've always been bad at trading.
I don't even call it trading at this point.
I more so call it donating liquidity.
Keeping the markets afloat.
Yeah, I'm not a bad trader.
I'm a professional liquidation engine tester.
There you go.
There you go.
Well, yeah, I mean, I've been coming up, I guess, 15 years in the space.
And I have no idea how it's been 15 years.
Not many people can say they're past the decade mark.
That's for sure.
Maybe, but how many people can also say they've been here that long and are still poor?
I should be a multi-billionaire.
My brother always is like, yeah, the problem is you got in too soon like if i wasn't slightly later like because at the time it was like two three dollars i was like ain't no way this is breaking
10 yeah yeah no that's the ain't no way this is breaking. And you were talking about Bitcoin, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Ain't no way this is breaking $10. $100 out of the question.
To this day, I've never put in a single penny into buying crypto ever.
Wow. That's awesome. So you've just always used the mining profits?
Yeah. I remember I mined a boatload of Litecoin the day it launched.
Litecoin.
Litecoin double point.
And then I remember I almost converted.
On BTCE, before they went down for money laundering, I almost converted.
I think it was 15,000 Litecoins at the time for 15,000 ETH.
And I was like, yeah, this is too soon.
There's going to be a new one, a better one. And then I ultimately sold 15,000 Litecoins for like yeah this is too soon there's gonna be a new one the better one
and then i ultimately sold 15 000 light coins for like i don't know 25 cents each
oh my god that's ridiculous um what about you what about you john when did you uh when did
you first get into to trading crypto like what what got you into it
okay so just to be sure please can you hear me clearly now yeah we can hear you all right so uh
i got in about two years ago right and uh what really made my trading journey that of a more fantastic one was the fact that i was surrounded
by good traders right two years ago two years ago not really long but we are sorry not like we were
sunday but the right people it makes it easy right yeah yeah because you learn from them
yeah yeah because you learn from them exactly and like the two of them my very close friends
we're just in the same room and i think they had about 10 years experience in this space
so okay yeah i was more like learning from their past mistakes you were seeing a lot of
psychological issues they were having sharing that with me So I think that really made my journey a very good one.
And entering towards the period where we had this, I think,
2021, late 2021 or so, where we had this rally.
So everything was just, you know,
moving in line and being with those kind of the right people
made an interesting one.
What were you trading during that time during that bull run
okay so so basically i was
okay yes can you hear me so like yep like during during during that period i was you
know just playing around i was not willing to trade in full time i say so i was playing around
with mean tokens you know how we just entire token and it's doing fine to be the father
i had good traders around me i was not looking at the fund that okay if i could make this profit from
tokens that are doing such our eye in a short period of time let let me get to know how I can consistently build a business around this.
So subsequently, I had to
take it more seriously from there.
But was there any one trade that you were
that performed really well during that bull market for you?
You mean during the bull run bull run yeah like in 2021
like was there any one asset like one cryptocurrency that that did really well for you
okay so um speaking of those particular main tokens we are we are talking of um tokens that
if you check the market i don't think they're existing right now
i don't know yeah that's what i mean so those were like we're just playing around just if you ask me
i was not making money and i'm not even making money from i think same same moon or the system
part of the tokens just mean you know some people may call it coins or something of that nature
so yeah i was just basically a newbie in the space not even knowing my way around
just you know hopping on anything viable you get it yeah so it's just with the help of those my
very good trader friends that i have to take it most seriously yeah yeah that makes sense uh
what's up sam welcome? Welcome to the stream, man.
You're on mute if you're trying to talk, Sam.
Hey, what up, guys?
I don't know if I'm audible.
I had a little bit of a tough time trying to set up to join the stream
am i audible yeah yeah we can hear you okay yeah good evening guys um great to be here
yeah yeah good to have you man i was just asking these guys like you know what what originally kind
of got you into crypto trading like when did you when did your journey into crypto kind of begin and like what got you into it
okay um that's a question for me or was it because um when i joined in john was
john was um speaking i think for the same question right
so um for myself that would be I believe uh 2020 yeah I think late 2020
that was the first time I actually heard about the cryptos echo and I saw it was um
through a friend actually the person was trying to introduce me to some sort of Ponzi scheme of one sort.
He said I should invest some money.
What a good entry into the space.
Yeah, I got started.
You know, just another one of those Ponzi schemes.
Yeah, that's the first time I actually got actually heard the name that was my first
introduction into it and as you know ponzi schemes that didn't even last a month so
after the whole ponzi scheme stuff ended i was still kind of curious about the whole thing
how it works the ponzi scheme was actually a thing it was backed by it through you yeah what was it called the there were a couple of
names do this particular one I think it was called something for sage or
something for sage and there was one they call it with a million money or
something so they were just selling people dreams you understand and a lot of people fell for it so me included yeah so uh yeah that
was my first time actually buying it and it's not like i even had money back then i was kind of i
was real broke so i just uh used a little i had and bought it for the stove so yeah it's a good time to buy it like if
you're buying it in 2020 like it's it was it was a really good time like there's a lot of time that
I actually have regrets like if I was more exposed back then you know and I had access to good forms
then that would have been a really good time to buy in to eat i
mean look at where it is now compared to back then yeah it's been a long ride so that was actually my
first introduction into this space and uh yeah the whole of 2021 i started getting involved i
think that was the first time that was my that was the time I opened my first Twitter account and yeah I just started getting involved in crypto sprays and
then got involved in some of the DeFi token trading I remember it was during that period that um bnb smart chain started um i think that was really when bnb
smart chain was really booming there was a lot of meme token trading and it's back then uh pancake
swap and the rest of it you need swap on it so yeah i remember i i got lucky. I had some sort of beginner's luck that 2021
on the whole memes and token trading and that on BNB.
I remember there was this particular meme.
I don't know if you recall.
I think the name was Evanan mars and there was another one
dodgy lon marlon mars is that what you said dodge elon mars yeah dodge elon mars oh yes yeah i
remember that yeah you recall something like that yeah and i actually sold that token early before
it actually went even higher so i what i got lucky on hip-hop i still missed out the biggest run
and uh yeah that's like one of the challenges right it's like how do you how do you like you
know how do you know when you should exit a position you know yeah that's not something that's
that particular challenge is something that even till now i still struggle with every now and then you know yeah it takes a lot of discipline
to be honest for me like i i always just like yeah i was just gonna say for me i always end up like
uh just sort of setting like a desired profit level you know like where i just know yeah yeah
yeah that's that's something that's that's that that was like that's
something that was the biggest turning point for me okay um knowing how to manage my risk
appropriately because like i was saying 2021 i had some luck and eventually that luck died out
so when i decided to actually become serious with trading was 2023 that's when i had like
the turning point for me i actually started relearning a lot of things and yeah that was
when i decided to actually be interested in the trading part of not just crypto though I actually branched out to for trading as well to try and expand my horizons
so yeah 2023 was when I actually decided to go into trading for real for you nice nice nice so
before the reason I decided to go into that is that i was still doing some
futures trading on binance before uh but like i said it was just i had some kind of beginners
like there were a lot of times that i could do some one trading futures i would just get lucky
and i'll flip a little amount to some big amounts and lose everything.
You know, just want to, you see, I'll do like, I'll use like three days to do a good flip and only to lose everything in an hour.
So, yeah, it was a little, real bad.
I had no idea of good risk management then compared to now.
That's something that
everyone kind of learns eventually, right?
It's like, you know, the risk management
side of trading and like, how do you,
you know,
how do you manage your risk like as
you go and you, you know, want to
get exposure to different
assets, different narratives. I guess like actually
on the narrative side
of things, like I wanted to ask you guys,
what are some of the crypto narratives
that you guys are most bullish on right now?
I mean, when you guys look at the market,
maybe we'll start with Sandro.
Are there any narratives that you're bullish on right now, Sandro?
Well, yeah, I would say one is like clearly like defi still in general right so
just think like at the moment a defi resurgence yeah it's just like a field which is struggling
right now right so the many reasons i think like the whole meme development, like in the past year is like heavily correlated, right?
So it was like for a huge chunk of time,
just like memes, right?
So, and then it shifted.
So I would say like right now they died off.
I mean, for now, right?
So they will return for sure.
But right now it really feels like most money is just like in mainly
in btc and then just like in other like super liquid assets like yeah i would say like top
100 for sure but at least like yeah i would even size it down to top 20 or top 30 assets so um yeah
or top 30 assets so um yeah and for me narrative wise like what's beside defi is really interesting
besides i don't know how how you pronounce it but this most people tried it yesterday or or today
this ghibli uh ghibli style chat gpt thing like thing. Overall, of course, AI is
a super hot topic.
I really think
there's a lot of
not quality stuff around.
It's a super hot narrative
and it's easy to tap in.
You really need to watch
about the quality of the project.
In my opinion,
most of it is like really garbage
but then again there's like really like promising stuff right so and yeah for me AI is like really
hot topic uh also besides crypto right I think like most of us use it daily it's uh it's a really handy thing maybe a scary thing for some but yeah
i would narrow it down at the moment for me like defy and ai gotcha are you are you bullish on a
cash then since you're into the ai side yeah i think i i would say like that would be for me
I would say that would be for me an asset which I would consider in the bullish category.
Like AKT, like Arctosh.
That's a hot asset for me.
One I would long when the time is right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What about you, Diplodon?
Any narratives?
Just any narratives
you're bullish on.
I mean, I still actively
short every meme point.
So I mean,
I'm, I guess,
bearish on that side of things, but
I mean,
you guys didn't hire me for trading advice.
You don't want my trading advice.
It's never good.
But what I can say is in terms of risk management and all that, stop losses and take profits are almost done and rolling out into bull bear.
Oh, let's go.
Yes.
The contract side is like 99% done gotta do some tests and then the front end side as well um and yeah you'll be able to trigger stop losses and take profits
based off a percentage of profits uh yeah it's basically going to work similar to how mars works
where there is a fee associated with it that anyone that triggers the claim will be able to get it.
So bots can basically monitor which positions have hit their threshold and request the trigger that are closed and then collect that bond fee.
Mm-hmm.
What's it going to be using on the back end?
What's it going to be using on the back end?
Is it going to be using
like anyone in the open market
just like Keeper that are running Keeper bots?
Or is it going to be using like
warp protocol or something or what?
No, anyone can trigger it.
I'll probably also just have a script
that just triggers them as well.
There's monitors every couple minutes.
But yeah, anyone can really just tap in
and just trigger them on the transactions.
The contract will make it super simple.
So you can query which positions have triggers and it'll return true or false if it's qualified to be liquidated.
And then you could just attempt to trigger it for liquidation.
So right now it's set at about $0.10.
So if you want to create a trigger position, it costs 10 cents.
And anyone that ultimately triggers that position will claim that.
But if you close your own position, obviously it all goes back to you.
Or if you cancel the stop loss or take profit, that also returns back to you.
So I think right now on Mars, because I'm not quite sure how they facilitate it, but they do something similar and their fee, you can set it.
And right now the default is 20 cents.
I think we can get away with it being as low as three cents.
And it still is ultimately profitable in terms of gas fees for anyone that does trigger the transactions.
So, yeah, I mean, really, there'll probably also be a little
UI for it as well, where you can just see a
stream of which positions, and anyone can
just click and claim if they want to.
Okay, nice.
We'll beat them all to it anyways.
Yeah.
What about you?
What about you, John?
Are there any crypto narratives that you're bullish on right now?
All right.
So mine would be a bit different from what some persons are saying, right?
Because, you know, I'm more of a technical trader.
I'm not really into fundamental part of trading.
So what I can say is the way i usually know when
what i usually do is i i usually know when we have we'll have a major reversal in the market
and from my and from my experience from the way bitcoin dominance and bitcoin
behaves i know that once this happens the whole outgoing market will move in that same direction
so whether whether it is ai where i defy definitely if btc and business dominance
make this particular no signal and i know that everything outgoing is going bullish or bearish
so that has been my guide so i i think that i used to you know, peak BTC from 48,000.
And I think the current all-time high, once you showed me with the BTC dominance,
that's okay, we're going to have a major reversal.
With that, I was able to sell off about 80% to 70% of my outcoin backs.
So I'm more of a technical trader, and that guides me a lot to knowing to exit and enter the market.
Yeah, that makes sense.
What about you, Sam?
Any narratives that you're bullish on?
Narratives I volition. Honestly, I haven't really been investing that much into a lot of crypto projects lately.
But if to say I had to, some of the things I'm kind of interested would be like Sandro mentioned earlier,
AI projects are looking real good. The AI narrative, sorry, is looking real good.
I mean, just, was it yesterday that Charles GPT
wrote out the new updates where the,
you can now edit photos into that,
some Ghibli studios still.
And I mean, look at the amount of people
that have just been making use of the whole feature
and it's been trending since yesterday.
So AI and I actually is looking really good.
So if I had to, if I wanted,
if I had to be interested in the narrative
to be AI number one,
and another would be defy
decentralized exchanges okay like Mars protocol for example because um people I
think people are looking to have more self-custody of their funds.
And for people that trade futures a lot and all that, you know,
have been spending way too long time on centralized exchanges.
And with decentralized exchanges coming up, like what you're building on blue beer zoom it's uh it's gonna be something that like for example build beers on like the way you
guys have made the whole um experience simple i mean i've tried a lot of decks since last year and
i really like what you guys are implementing on view prison because like for example let's say um i want to trade whenever i want to trade on your vision i
don't need to like go ahead and make a deposit specifically like once i want to open my trade
i'm just depositing my margin i'm about to enter that trade onto the blue beer zone at that point in time instead of like depositing the whole
um account capital so i really like the upper class feature about it because i mean i know that
um especially i like now that there is no um cp and sl yet to manage risk and all that so i know
what i'm actually using to open that trade is what i'm willing to risk on that so any of you things go south um you know since one blue beer zone there's
no specific way to um switch between isolated and cross margin so i believe it's already on
cross margin so it's to say the um move years and i had to like deposit my whole account capital at
once that would mean that whenever i enter one trade I'm risking like my whole account size in
a star so I like the fact that what I'm actually using to open the trade is just
the amount that you see entering blue version at that point in time so yeah I
really like that about Google so define and so DeFi, sorry, Dexys,
that's something I'm really interested in. So yeah, Dexys and DLAI sentiments,
that'll be the narrative I would have to go with.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Have you tried clusters yet?
No, I saw, was it on Deploy Dunst timeline where he was talking about it?
I haven't actually tried it yet.
So it's not linked from the main site as of yet because it's still kind of in beta,
but if you want to try it, it's just bullbear.zone slash clusters.
Okay.
Okay.
We'll probably link it off the site and share it in the next,
just kind of finalizing some other aspects of it, primarily around position history and sharing.
But for now, it's kind of just shared internally.
If anyone wants to try it out, feel free if there's any issues you notice with it or anything that you think could be improved for primarily just collecting feedback right now.
But it's fully usable.
So right now, there's just a couple of predefined positions,
but you could also create your own position.
So you can currently select up to 10 assets, long or short.
Then you can decide how much collateral gets allocated to each one
and leverage that to each one.
So you can really mix and match.
You can decide to do 10 assets that are all long,
five long, five short long five long five short five
long five shorts whatever you really want um there's infinite combinations
so basically closer that's like it's um it calculates the net position um of like the
net position of all your assets you're trading at once, is that it? Like the net P&L for all assets?
Yes, it'll do all positions all at once.
They all act as one giant account.
So if you can fund it with just like X amount of USTC
and that amount is leveraged individually
with different collateral allocations per assets.
So then you could specify,
like if you think you want to weigh Bitcoin higher,
maybe you'll choose Bitcoin is at 8x, but maybe your Ethereum long is only at a 3x. So you can
mix and match how it all works. And the whole cluster as a whole earns the funding rate. It'll
calculate out what your funding rate is as a whole position. And you can name them individually. So
soon you'll be able to share them
and I've already been seeing some people
creating some funny names
out of these clusters
so it just allows you to
take positions on everything
so if you think the market's about to take a massive
correction or drop massively
in one or two clicks
you can just short 10 assets all in one shot
yeah
that makes sense I'll try that out in one or two clicks, you can just short 10 assets all in one shot. Yeah.
That makes sense.
I'll try that out.
Sounds like a really cool feature.
Yeah, it's going to be going live in the coming weeks fully, probably.
But the idea is like Deploydown was just, like, like deployed on was just saying,
you know, if there's a narrative that you're bullish on, or like you think generally the market is going to, you know, perform well or perform poorly, like, like you said, you can go
in and, you know, long a basket of assets, a cluster of assets,
or short a cluster of assets.
Yeah.
Or you can do a combo.
Like what's cool also is you can do a combo cluster
where you long some assets, you short other ones.
Yeah.
So like I mentioned, like this guy was talking about AI sentiments,
I can just go ahead and
loan all assets that are ai assets right something like that yeah yeah bull bear we we have to list
some more assets there because i think we have we have a kosh which is an ai project but i don't
know to put on their other ai projects that we have listed there i believe that is the only direct one yeah okay um but yeah
maybe that's like something for mars as well um and even that one of mars an ai project it is
i think they technically call themselves decentralized infrastructure or deep end
or deep in one aspect that you can run on it.
um yeah yeah one aspect that you can run on it i mean
I mean, yeah, my only problem with Akash,
it's primarily been because of the nature of how things were running.
It was generally unreliable.
Yeah, I was paying like 40 cents a month to run IPFS gateway nodes,
which would have cost me 10 times the price anywhere else. So that's awesome.
I think once they have more automations associated with that, because the one issue I was running
into a lot is every couple of weeks, the provider would just shut it down and then I'd have to
spin it up again. I mean, it's pretty quick and easy to do so. It's just that annoyance and that
downtime in between. And generally, I found a
lot of providers would just kind of nuke them and then raise their prices, making you pay more for
the exact same thing you were already running. So I think they can greatly improve it. I mean,
for what they're at today, they're already way ahead of everyone else. Looking around at some
of these other providers that try to do similar things and like they're all gated you can't actively use it i don't know if any of you've tried like
their deployment site it's actually really cool really well done so that's my only my only negative
side of akash is it's just the annoyance of the under liability but i think that's something that
they can solve eventually. Yeah.
Yeah, we need more AI assets, Sandro.
Yeah.
I heard you.
I think I'm not 100% sure if you could classify it under AI.
I mean, at least like Binance does it. I was just like in the meantime, just searching what Binance has listed under AI section.
It's like, I mean, I would say maybe like 30, 40 assets.
So it's not nothing.
But most of it are really smaller ones.
But one asset which is listed there, which comes like fairly soon to Mars.
I assume it's right now in governance stage, but I'm fairly certain governance will pass.
So on Sunday, we'll see most likely NIL, right?
NILian, like they launched a couple of days days ago like i think like earlier this week
monday or something like that so um this part market will be live on sunday right so
and besides that we need to see right so um also um with the neutron team in touch there right so it's like in order to list like a purpose market
of Mars and then later on uh or immediately Bullenberg can tap in right uh but the mechanic
is like Mars has to list like the new asset and uh there are like several factors like and the
first one is like on a chain level I would would say like the Oracle, which is slinky.
Yeah, we need the Oracle price feed.
Exactly.
So we need an Oracle price for those assets and we need to check together, right?
So if we can list more, because like one centralized exchange, even if it's like a major one like Binance in my understanding isn't enough
right so we need like multiple sex listing for an asset and then it can be listed uh yeah or
a feed can be established and then the Mars part comes in with we have like a risk framework we
can run it through risk framework um most often like newer assets like
million for for example they get like a pretty conservative like first or initial leverage
around 3x other assets are around 5x like btc is up to 10x so it varies on the asset class right or on the risk parameters and then ideally
at the moment we are like maybe people ask how is that even possible right on cosmos on neutron
how can you list like perps like um like op or uh or arbitrum right so there isn't like spot liquidity on cosmos or neutron right
so but like perhaps it's like almost like 100 or like a synthetic product right so you don't
necessarily need or yeah you don't need the spot liquidity but spot liquidity makes it better right so if spot
liquidity would be around you could do like carry trades like more sophisticated stuff like being
delta neutral more easily but this is not the reality right now in cosmos and therefore we need
something where we can ARP, right?
Like, especially like funding rate-wise.
And at the moment, we are using Coinbase that can be expanded to other exchanges or even like markets on hyperliquid, right?
So, but this is how it works.
Pardon me?
You mean hyperilliquid.
Yeah.
I mean, I could dunk a little bit more on them.
I mean, they're super successful.
I don't mind what they do, right?
But yeah.
Is it really easy?
We just want 100x leverage.
Are you going to give that to us or what?
Yeah, 100x is... I mean, let's see if he can come that close but uh it's also uh i personally
can't recommend to trade like that right so i'm not saying it's a great idea i'm just saying
oh none yeah none of this on the stream is financial advice no no no no i think i was using i think 120x on jupiter and i was up like 85 in like a minute
and then by the time i closed it i was down 60 yeah oh my god that's ridiculous yeah the liquidation
was like 0.02 away yeah i was gonna say like your liquidation had to have
been like not even a percent away like yeah yeah i know it's pretty bad it's pretty stupid
see but i'd rather lose that money on neutron so yeah yeah there you go yeah but sometimes i mean
not hundred eggs right so but uh sometimes it can work right if you have like
a good feeling narrative wise what's happening maybe combined with a launch um
yeah well like you guys could you guys could oh go ahead sorry you're gonna yeah like i just want
to say like one of my really like most successful trade was like on at that time on
binance mars uh hadn't the perps launched uh at that time but um yeah it was like when tia
came out right and i was like i wouldn't call me i'm not a day trader right so i i don't use like
patterns and stuff like that so for me it's more like timing and what's going and
also a bit of luck right so and of course when i or yeah i think like when people use uh really
high leverage and with really high leverage i mean everything which is above 10x right
at that time it was like i think i hit like a 50x on binance but my collateral wasn't enough
so it wasn't like 50x i think at the end it was something around 30x and i nailed really the the
bottom of tia like right after it launched it dived a little bit so the usual airdrop behavior
i hope the same to be honest for om but they have a really good market maker and only issued 10
of the supply to airdropper so it didn't dump that much um but yeah i waited that out so i
didn't shorten it so but i i longed like the bottom and i uh could uh cap or like keep the
long active um almost i think like till 70 or something like that so that wasn't like
really profitable but I would if I'm really honest there was like a huge portion was luck right so
once you get like over let's say if it's doubled the the chance to get like liquidate it gets like really small or like in
comparison right so and uh it's just like okay you you lose like profit if i mean that long was like
open for over two weeks right so for for perps i would say it's a long period of time um but yeah
at the end it turned out well right so if you have like a really good timing and the
market makes a big leg up and you are like in big profits even if the funding rates and i have to
admit at that time that the funding rate on binance was also like really compelling really nice still
um it didn't cost me a lot of money um yeah and at the end it was like really good gains i've been floating uh
a mantra on short for like two weeks now and i keep adding more and i haven't publicly tweeted
about it because i feel like they're gonna claw back my airdrop if i do but i i sold the 10%
unlock yesterday use all the money to short it further like it's going to zero it makes absolutely no sense that's like a six billion dollar market cap i don't know it seems a little high for
something that could be an app on neutron
yeah um so that just means it'll probably go to 25 now so
So that just means it'll probably go to $25 now.
So, so, uh, John, did we get, did we, did we touch on you?
Like, are there any, are there any narratives that, uh, that you're bullish on right now?
All right.
So I've been, I've been pulling out with you guys just can you hear me now
yeah we can hear you all right so i've been fooling over guys and it sounds a lot that
like uh we have more fundamental traders than technical that is if i'm not mistaken
because i'm more of a technical trader you get it oh that's right that's right you said
you said that's right that's right i forgot
we you you did say you're more a tactical trader okay but what i can say about narrative is um from
my from my experience with the past imperial rallies we had in the crypto market you know 2020
the the major rally then from research was defy you get yeah it got to a point i think the next rally there was nfcs and now we are
on ai and the rest as narrative but the truth is as as a trader you can be on a narrative but
based on your portfolio you are losing hope you know that it's possible too right so a lot of
persons may have the current narrative
that we are on ai you should be buying these tokens and these tokens but because they don't
know how to time their entry and entry and exits you know yeah they don't have what to show for it
i think that's why that's one of the that's one of the cool things about bull versus bear though
is that you don't have to worry too much about your entry and exit if you're right on the direction of the trade, right?
So, for instance, if you think that AI is going to perform well in the coming months, years, what have you, however long you plan to keep a trade open for, weeks, what have you, it just doesn't really matter. Then you pick something that you're
bearish on in comparison. So you say like, I'm bullish on AI, I'm going to long near
and Akash and some other projects that you're bullish on. And then I'm going to short meme
coins or something like let's say
you're you're you're bearish on meme coins then you short like i don't know trump and pepe and
um other things like that and then um you're you know you're profitable so long as ai these ai coins
um outperform these meme coins over the time of your trade. It doesn't matter the entry or the exit in a way, right?
Where you needed to plan like exactly this price, exactly this, you know, level.
Like, you know, you could just as easily say like, once this trade, like if this trade
gets to, you know, this amount of profit, I'm going to exit the trade, right?
If I make 20% profit, I'm going to exit the trader.
I make 10% profit, I'll exit the trade, right? If I make 20% profit, I'm going to exit the trade. Or I make 10% profit, I'll exit the trade, right?
And so that's kind of the beauty is like you can avoid timing the market on bull versus bear by taking these directional bets.
Okay, so what you're saying is it's more like the point I'm trying to make because if i'm working on ai narrative right which
is a very good narrative and i pick those two points what i do is i i i use only one week time
frame that is focusing on let's say the dominance of btc because we can't dispute the fact that
bitcoin has a big influence on outcomes right yeah, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So inasmuch as we believe in that narrative,
I usually personally,
that I'm guiding my portfolio,
I try to guide using the Bitcoin dominance and Bitcoin itself to know when the major shifts.
Okay, so not like timing the market
as to when exactly to, you know,
play around with short gains but you can believe in it in terms of the long run that the ai tokens will be doing fine
so you can have a separate wallet for the long term but then i try to use the dominance to know
the exact turning point yeah that makes sense and then you know, one way that you can even augment that strategy by saying like, okay, I think, you know, Bitcoin is going to perform well in the next month. Right? Usually because Bitcoin is a larger asset now, Bitcoin's price, well, it really depends on like, you know, the move, but Bitcoin's price will go up, but it's going up percentage wise like less than like
an alt coin or like a lower liquidity asset would right so you look and you say okay well
you know bitcoin's gonna go up i think it's like okay well that's gonna be maybe like a five percent
move or ten percent move or something right um and then you say actually i'm gonna open up like
a cluster position let's say just as an example of like assets that you're bullish on that you think are going to go up at a higher rate or a faster rate than Bitcoin will during this time period.
Right. That's like one way you could augment that strategy as well.
okay nice nice um what are what are uh like have you guys made any any trades recently that you've
Nice.
Nice.
that that you're excited about that um that went well i know sandra was talking about one earlier
sam did you do you have any yeah the most recent credit it was the mood trade yeah i shorted move yesterday
although i closed it early i closed it before the end of the course but i expected it to go
lower which it ended up going lower today but i i closed the position before the end of yesterday
closed the position before the end of yesterday yeah i shot a move yesterday i think i did
i made the post on twitter for that i started move yesterday i think from around it is 0.573
yeah to i closed around 0.51 yeah it's also a pretty good trade prior to that day i shorted if i move did a real bullish
move as a tuesday yeah it was tuesday it moved real big on tuesday all the way from 45 cents
all the way from 45 cents to that point where i shorted from so yeah i i for that particular trade
i i was i i i was keeping an eye on it because i was trying to follow the trend you know for
for during when it was going to leash that day i was keeping an eye and i was
trying to put the trend but when the day closed and i saw that the candle closed bullish
or the colors with the week which signified that the beers are actually trying to push
so i just waited for the setup to print and once I got a good entry I started shorting from there
yeah although I prior to that I missed a really good one on soul as well during the weekend
actually that's what I was talking about that i am still struggling with um trying to hold on to
good positions i remember i had a buy position on solo over the weekend from around 125 yeah
around 125 126 i had a buy position but after the first move uh when the face move after the first
move and it rejected a bit i closed around 128 i mean 129 yeah and once i closed a couple hours
later before the end of that day it actually hit the tp that i had set which it was around 133 and
actually hit the tp that i had set which it was around 133 and get gaining all the way to i believe
so reach up to 145 yeah so that was a trade that i missed out on but also oil angel so yeah we'll go
yeah yeah exactly so you're more of a day trader then you're you're trading on the lower time
frames yeah i trade on like i have trouble holding on positions for a long time so i i'm i always
try to switch between the trading and actually stream trading like because i'm trying to deal with that problem so yeah now the highest i've ever held i
think probably two days two days two three days as a higher position that's the longest that's
the longest you've held something yeah that's the best i've tried so that's that is sure that's a short time frame yeah that's my best swing um
swing uh trading right yeah so that's my best what was the trading i know that's
nice nice yeah it's it, it's interesting.
Yeah, like just doing,
that's a whole other world of like, you know,
trying to catch like a four hour move
on an asset or something than,
you know, something else.
Deploydown, was there anything else you wanted to,
I know you touched on clusters already,
you kind of dropped the alpha there for people to check it out if they want to try it out.
Was there anything else you wanted to cover in this stream?
Nothing that comes to mind. Am I missing anything?
No, I think that's good. I mean, you also touched on the take profit and the stop losses,
which I didn't know we were currently working on, which is exciting.
Yeah, I know Mars had their own version of it,
and I was asking if it's possible to get callback trigger hooks
so I can just piggyback off that.
And it seemed like, depending on who answered,
a no or a yes, maybe eventually.
So I figured I would just take the same approach that they did
and just build it in directly, allow anybody to do it.
Because it seems to be a recurring ask.
And I think in the group chat, I've been asked it like six times
and I think I've answered it six times.
And then the same people still ask me,
just completely forgetting that I've already answered the same person it's kind of funny
so I figured screw it I'm just gonna do it I figured out a fairly easy way of doing it so
contract level it's done just testing it shortly and then uh UI as well which won't be much to it
you'll be able to create them at position open or attach them later on and that's about it
the only thing i'm kind of considering is if i should track how many positions
someone closes like if we want to have like a little liquidator leaderboard or something
yeah that would be cool
yeah that would be cool liquidation leaderboard
liquidation leader board
yeah which is basically track who is like
facilitating closing and
triggering limit orders
oh okay
yeah
I heard you guys mention something
I'm already number one on that
what were you saying Sam um oh i think you guys i heard you guys mention something about um leverage
increase is that is that confirmed like are you guys actually increasing i don't yeah i don't
want to 100x but if you guys can do at least 50x 50x won't be bad at least for btc and e
at least for btc and e you know major price like that high market cap price yeah i believe
mars is in the process how to increase that and of course it'll vary depending on the asset
i think right now the asset would leverage trump coin um and i think bitcoin peaks at like 8.8 x but i think uh the march side said that they have plans of ways of increasing
that um so as soon as that is available as soon as march does increase that in any which way they
do so uh bull bear will also have that okay that that would be cool yeah yeah we are working on that and uh i can't give a timeline but uh i think like yeah that's
like one of uh one of our priorities would also say like to increase leverage i think yeah as
mentioned there are like some plans uh to achieve it right so um So, yeah, I would say soon TM,
but it's certainly a goal of us to increase leverage for the assets.
Yeah, like especially the major assets, right?
So it will be always a thing, like a risk thing, right?
So not all assets can have like the same leverage.
I mean, you can get that
on a centralized exchange but like if it's like really everything on chain defy um like risk
parameters are like really important but i agree like uh we want to see like increased leverage
for sure uh i personally have like a question to deploy it on regarding cluster
i just had a fault right so let's say i choose a cluster let's pick the the cosmos dev cell
cluster right so and then it's performing really well right so i would i'm like a little bit more
conservative i don't have i don't like to hatch so i would use like uh
this long cluster uh denominated in usd right yeah just like in usd and like it would pump
for example like the cluster would pump but like one asset is like doing exceptionally well right
so not all assets will do well i think
that's interesting for people who want to have like exposure into like a broader field but
if i select like a cluster and then one asset is performing really well is it possible to um
single that out at some point that say okay I want to close the cluster but
uh this particular asset or this trading pair ride yeah yeah I mean um not currently uh in the
initial designs of bull bear I had that as an idea of being able to kind of like the initial early view on before
anything was ever seen was when you paired like a bull asset and a bear asset there was going to be
an option where you could cut one so you could say oh the bear's dying cut that and then it would
tally up um the bulls and the bears winning like how many on each side depending on which assets
get cut and then being able to modify individual positions but um it didn't seem like that was uh very interesting for some so i i think right now
no but later on for clusters it might make sense to have that as an option for the uh current trade
pair where you're just doing two assets it might not make But yeah, for a cluster to be able to just kind of ax one position out, actually, there's not much to that. It should be, actually would
be relatively easy in some cases, right? Because due to us opening all the positions all at
once, and I don't know if you've noticed, the transfer to Mars option has been removed
because we did find even in the trade side, if you've
longed, let's say you've longed Bitcoin and shorted Ethereum, then you transferred that
to your Mars account. If you were close to liquidation, it did not allow you to close
one of the assets because your health rate would fluctuate too much and it just would block it.
So the only way to close those assets when you transfer it to the Mars House
is to deposit more collateral or close both at once.
So because of that, if we were to allow individual cluster assets to be closed,
there might be some cases where that happens.
Now, if you have a cluster that's performing very well
and you want to close off some of them, it might work out to be okay, especially if we keep the closed off collateral in that account.
So I'll take a look at that and see.
It might be possible, but as of today, no.
It just adds that additional layer of complexity
It just adds that additional layer of complexity dealing with the health risk.
dealing with the health risk.
But if we had 50X leverage,
it might be a little easier.
Oh, sorry.
Go ahead, Sam.
Yeah, I was curious about something.
Concerning the clusters,
would they be like um copy trading feature like let's say you create a cluster on like it was sandra was talking about on the
cosmos ecosystem okay of tokens on the cosmos ecosystem you actually involved in make a cluster of that can he like okay can i like copy trade that
you can yeah so would that be possible though the way it's like automatically
no i think he's asking like can you will you be able to enter clusters that other people create
right yeah when you share one there'll be an option that will do it um
so you'll be able to just basically clone it and then just purchase that pairing with all
the configurations so yeah that will be possible um initially so right now there's kind of two sides
of it where there's like our defined clusters which are clusters that our side creates and
those are what's readily available once like you purchase or you can create your own as part of that creation process you also be able
to share the links what you share a link to your position you'll be able to see
that shared cluster position of all the assets in it and then there'll be the
option to basically buy into that cluster and you can just open the exact
same with all the same leverage and collateral settings. Or if you want, you can enter it, but modify some of them.
Like if you like a cluster that someone created,
but you don't like that Bitcoin is only at 5x leverage in there,
you can copy and then jack the BTC leverage up to 8x
and then have the same overall pairing,
but maybe you want to manipulate the leverages slightly.
So yeah, all of that will be possible.
Okay.
That'll be cool.
Yeah.
That'll be cool.
We have one last question,
and then we'll close out the stream.
One was from Manseer in the chat,
was around adding USDY on neutron basically just to be
able to use,
use like a yield bearing collateral asset to trade with.
So your,
your USDC on bull versus bear is already earning yield.
Like,
so it is yield bearing collateral.
So you are earning yield when you use that to trade on bull versus bear is already earning yield. Like, so it is yield bearing collateral. So you are earning yield when you use that to trade on bull versus bear.
It's lending it out. It's lending your USDC to earn lending yield.
But in terms of USDY specifically, like right now, bull versus bear, like using as collateral
to trade on bull versus bear, like right now, is just to keep usdc um as the primary collateral asset like mars if you want um to trade uh with
other collateral types um you can also just go on a mars and do that directly um where any asset
that's well mars sandra correct your firm but like mars has like a collection of assets
that are currently white listed as like assets you can use to trade against right it's got like
yeah that's right it's spot liquidity on neutron right so that's uh important that people
understand it so i just read like earlier this evening a question in our community chat like a
guy was asking probably because he saw like op is trading as perps right on mars or on bull bear
so he was asking hey can i use my op as collateral on Mars and our moderator said nah unfortunately not it's not a
collateral type right so yeah like those whitelist collateral types on Mars on neutron also on
osmosis it's really correlated to the on like the spot liquidity uh on that chain right so um also to qualify needs to have
like a certain tvl on uh on astro port for example or on duality uh then uh some yeah risk parameters
or like risk framework things come into play but that's that's the way uh how um assets get get whitelisted or
uh in mars case on neutron also um so unique thing lps right so um like a certain drop uh
lps or neutron lps are like whitelisted so um you can create like the same lp as an astro port i mean astro
astro port is in the back when you create the lp on mars and then you can also use it as collateral
for all your defy activities such as perp straight right so that that's a cool part i mean that's i
think like the cool thing we have now right so with bull and
bear which like really a simplification of like mars perps or maybe like other features as well
or yeah just like i would say like right now just like simplification for mars perps but gives also
additional features in a way with clusters right or uh already now uh I mean if you I mean most perp markets Mars as well
is denominated in USD right so so you trade like asset versus USD and on bull versus bear
you can pair it with other any other asset right and this is already like a feature on top in my
mind but still like it's a simplification of mars perhaps and then you have mars like yeah i would
say like really like a more sophisticated defy app and you can do like several things right so
i would say like at the moment perhaps it's also my favorite thing it's the most exciting thing right so but you have credit accounts so like cross collateral cross margin is possible
as mentioned so with lp with a lot of whitelisted assets so um yeah and this would require like USDY would be like spot on Neutron, right?
So I just had a thought,
isn't that something like really similar
as the Pluriderm's other project like Jade?
Yeah, and actually,
I don't know if you saw the stable app,
the draft of it came out today,
and they actually are not allowing
yield-bearance tables.
So it's going to be very interesting.
They're basically...
Wait, who said that?
That's part of the draft of the Staples Act, the Government Act on stable coins.
I'll DM you the link right now.
But basically, they're not allowing that.
They're not allowing algorithmic stables for the next two years.
Now, mind you, this is just a draft.
This isn't really fully signed into act yet,
but it's kind of crazy.
Like you can back it with T bills,
but you're not allowed to pass that yield on anywhere.
so we'll see.
That's going to be very interesting.
Yeah.
Um, All right.
We'll just rename CBDC to StablePoint at this rate.
Yeah.
Well, I wanted to thank all you guys for coming on.
Sam, John, Sandro, Diplodon, obviously.
We'll be doing more of these Traders Corners
in the
future, these types of streams.
But yeah, thanks everybody for coming.
Yeah, if you have
any questions about anything about bull
versus bear, you can
join the Neutron Community
Telegram channel, which is
you can find on neutron.org
and we can answer any questions you guys find on neutron.org.
And we can answer any questions you guys have in there.
Obviously, I'll always have our DMs
open as well, so if you want to shoot us a DM about
something, feel free.
And we'll see you guys in the next one.
Thank you very much for having me.
All right. Sounds good. Talk soon.
Cheers, guys. Talk to you soon.
See ya.
