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Can ETFs spark the next bull run? Dogechain Roundtable #52
Recorded: Sept. 8, 2023 Duration: 2:27:52Space Recording
Full Transcription
spaces where we gather some more people are coming from the quick swap spaces
let's retweet this and in the meantime let's have some music just cycling here
through my
I hear the drums echoing tonight she hears only whispers of some quiet conversation
she was coming in the world that it finds
wooded wings and black stars that fly between some very sharpens
I stopped an old man and walked away
couldn't find some old forgotten words
or ancient metal things
he turned to me as if to say
hurry boy
it's great and let it be at home
gotta take the walk and take the walk and take the walk and take the walk
there's nothing better for me and I'm the way I've never been alone
I said it's raining down in the air that we have to go
we're gonna take some time to do love and we never have to go
wild dogs cry out in the night as their restless
the slowly and passionate come
I know that I must do what's right as they move to a
The wild dogs cry out in the night
As they were restless, falling for some solitary calm
I know that I must do what's right
Sure as to generalize
Cause life of the first of the seven years
I seem to care what's deep inside
Frightened out this thing that I've become
You're gonna take the light and take the weight
There's nothing better when you're men are more than what you want
I guess it's way down in the head
I guess it's way down in the head
There's nothing better when you're in the head
There's nothing better when you're in the head
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
So we're going to discuss ETFs, try to explain a little bit to the community, what they are for those that are unfamiliar with them.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
In the meantime, we'll be right back.
Let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more song while we're waiting for the rest of the community to join something lighthearted, let's say.
Let's see.
Let's see.
Let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more.
Let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more, let's have one more.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Oh, right.
Paul Simon.
Hey, Rock.
Hello, Sheeps.
Hello, Rock.
How's it going?
Going well.
Going well.
If anyone, I don't know how many people here, it looks like, I'm looking at the audience,
it looks like we had some good flow over, come from the Polygon spaces, but that was a pretty
entertaining one.
We had a big Bitcoin debate.
Wendy O got heated with a couple of the other guests.
We had a little bit of backstory of the BitBoy saga from Wendy O, who's a good friend of his.
We had a Playboy Playmate who's doing the Rogue Bunnies NFTs, who basically, because of how things changed at Playboy, and they sold the mansion, and they kind of tried to distance themselves from Hugh Hefner, that they basically now are kind of Rogue Bunnies.
They've kind of taken her, and I think 75 other Playmates are doing these Rogue Bunnies NFTs.
I don't know.
She tried to be respectful of the Playboy brand, but it sounds like there's some, I don't know if animosity, but like a separation in culture when they decided to distance from Hugh and the mansion.
She was talking about her, and her family grew up at the mansion.
Anyways, it was a crazy show.
It was about trading, but we didn't even get to trading, but it typically happens on these.
We always get so sidetracked with all the different things happening, but yeah, I hope people missed that one.
If you didn't, you could always listen to the recording on the QuickSwap page, but yeah, good to be here now.
Let's try to have an epic show.
Nice.
Today, the main focus of the show is going to be discussing some catalysts for the next bull run, specifically the ETFs, because I know that's one that obviously a lot of people have been discussing recently,
and it seems to be like the most obvious, biggest catalyst that's in the immediate future.
We just had a bit of an interesting situation where, obviously, at the start of the month, or maybe the end of August, sorry, all the ETFs were kind of delayed.
Because the SEC said they need more time to review everything.
And then, just after that, I think Grayscale won a significant victory against the SEC, and so people are saying they've kind of got them cornered now.
Because of this, they kind of have to accept them at some point.
So I think what's probably going to happen is, this is my opinion anyway, that the SEC is kind of playing for time now, and then eventually they'll be like a tide, and they'll all get approved.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
It is what it looks like, for sure.
Actually, for those that are not familiar with it, Grayscale was suing the SEC because they got refused for their spot ETF, Bitcoin ETF, for a reason that was not stated for the futures ETF that were approved previously.
So what the court said is that they should be looked at the same way, because they're inherently not very different from each other.
So the spot and the futures ETF, and they cannot just arbitrarily put refusals like that, like they did with the Grayscale one, like being too risky or something like that.
So either they're trying to find new ways to refuse these ETFs by delaying them.
They said they left until mid-October.
But I think that they even might want to try to delay that as well, the mid-October dates.
But then again, we are talking about big, big companies here, like BlackRock, like ARK, Invest, that are going to start to get antsy and may try to maybe sue the SEC for delaying without actually giving any notice or without actually giving any good reason for it.
Wait, who? I didn't hear that. Who might sue them?
BlackRock and ARK, Invest.
I mean, what's the thinking behind that? Like, is there actual, is that just a rumor?
Because, I mean, it's a rumor.
It feels like BlackRock and the SEC, they don't sue each other because they're big buddies, you know?
Yeah, I know.
Maybe I'm wrong.
But the thing is that, yeah, of course, they're very close.
But that doesn't mean that the SEC should be let run free.
And I don't think that, there's a rumor that, especially ARK, I don't know about BlackRock in particular, but ARK is really not appreciating the fact that everything is getting delayed, it's getting refused either.
They applied for an Ethereum ETF as well.
Yeah, I think, like, recently, the other side of this is, like, these companies, it's not like, so the SEC's kind of been throwing its weight around with the smaller crypto companies and even the bigger ones like Coinbase.
But still, Coinbase is still like a minnow compared to BlackRock and some of these other funds.
And it's like, the SEC really isn't the bigger player when it comes to, like, these huge financial institutions.
And so if they decide they want to do something, they can spend significant resources on making the legal phrasing and complying perfectly with everything they need to do to be a custodian and to be, you know, to get approved for this.
And then they can just force it because they can take it to court and go, look, you know, the SEC's acting maliciously.
This is, we've complied with literally everything that we need to comply with.
We've launched, you know, hundreds of ETFs over the years.
Their approval rating for ETFs is, I think, 98%.
So they don't mess around.
And if they approve BlackRock, then they should approve others because if everybody else is kind of following the same language and the same, they've got the same responsibility, then, you know.
And interestingly, though, and this is one detail that not a lot of people are talking about, and this is one that I think this is why they're being delayed, is because a lot of the ETFs have listed Coinbase as a custodian.
Now, the problem with that is the SEC is suing Coinbase for listing unregistered securities.
So if they greenlight the ETF, they're sort of saying, okay, we trust Coinbase for this, you know, most important thing, but we don't trust them with this other stuff.
And so that would kind of be probably a hole in their narrative.
And I think they want to conclude, possibly conclude the Coinbase suit or definitely get somewhere with it before they approve or do anything with these ETFs.
That's my opinion.
Yeah, that's an interesting angle.
I don't know how many of these – is BlackRock using Coinbase as the custodian, for example?
I think so.
That's a big one.
So, yeah.
Yeah, BlackRock sent in.
That was one of the big, big, like, interesting pieces of it.
Yeah, they're going to be using Coinbase as a custodian.
Very interesting.
So, logically, it's –
Does BlackRock not custody their own assets, I would have thought?
I think it just comes down to they want to rely on a leader in the space to do that for them.
So, BlackRock isn't a crypto company.
It's an investment company.
And they want to – you know, Coinbase is probably the most legitimate company that knows the most about crypto.
And so they're going to be the most likely to provide the highest level of security to crypto assets.
And they've already – you know, Coinbase has already been trusted with, you know, billions of dollars in customer assets for the last five, six, seven years or whatever, however long they've been going.
So, to a certain degree, they've already, like, proved their mettle.
The interesting thing, though, and this is, like, one for people that are interested in stocks.
And, again, like, let me preface this by saying, like, this is – please don't do anything based on this random piece of information.
But one thing I was thinking about this is that if BlackRock ETF gets approved, BlackRock will probably handle the majority of – in fact, it definitely will handle the majority of ETF, Bitcoin ETF funds.
And that means that Coinbase will handle the majority of Bitcoin ETF funds.
So, it's, like, what does that mean for Coinbase, the company?
Probably, like, really good profits.
They'll probably collect some fee, you know.
And if, like, we get all this crazy institutional money that people think is going to flow into this over the next five years, Coinbase will be closest to the – closest to the tap, if you know what I mean.
So, they'll be prime position to profit.
And then, you know, their stock's been smashed pretty hard over the last few years with the bear market and all the lawsuits and stuff.
So, just an interesting thought.
I mean, I've had ups and down – up and down opinions about Coinbase for a long time.
They did some weird stuff early on, especially when they put, like, Bitcoin Cash above Bitcoin as Bitcoin.
And there were some – there's been multiple things they did that were a little odd and kind of pissed me off.
They were late to do Lightning Network.
These are more Bitcoin things.
But overall, I'll say they have done more for the industry than probably any other company in the world.
So, kudos to them for bringing Bitcoin to the masses.
And I think this is pretty cool to see that a crypto-native company who's being – you know, clearly they're not incumbents.
You know, they're not married to the regulators yet since they're being aggressively attacked by some of the biggest regulators.
So, kudos to them in seeing that BlackRock has chosen them for this and that this could really help cement Coinbase, one of the oldest companies in crypto and early, you know, believers as hopefully one of the future institutions that maybe we'll eventually fight against.
I don't know.
So, we'll see.
So, yeah, Coinbase is the custodian.
It could become really interesting in the near future, especially in the next cycle.
Their stock could be very interesting to look at.
What would their stock do on the day an ETF is approved?
I imagine for two reasons.
One, because they're like a proxy for Bitcoin, their stock.
And two, because they would be the custodian.
I can –
Of the real Bitcoin, yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, why ETFs, by the way?
A lot of the people I talk to, they actually don't understand why this is such a big deal, especially that we already have ETFs, but these are not the same.
So, what are ETFs?
So, ETF stands for Exchange Traded Fund.
These are like investment funds that are traded on stock exchanges, similar to stocks, actually.
So, they're traded on mainstream stock exchanges and not crypto exchanges.
These funds, they hold different assets in them, like stocks, commodities, or crypto, for example, in the case of Bitcoin ETMs.
And they track the performance of the price of that asset, the assets that are actually in the fund.
And for a Bitcoin ETF, for example, there are two different ways to look at it.
There's the futures ETF that already exists, which actually hold and speculate on future contracts of Bitcoin, which in itself doesn't actually represent real Bitcoin, but just a speculation on the future price of Bitcoin.
That's what futures are.
And the spot Bitcoin ETFs means that they will actually, the custodian of the ETF will actually have to hold the Bitcoin and then issue these ETF shares to their customers.
For example, if they have 10,000 Bitcoin, they can release fractionalized shares of this Bitcoin that they have, for example, until 0.01, and then sell these shares, like a million shares to their customers.
And now, what this does is that people that don't know how to use crypto, they don't know how to use wallets, they want to use only mainstream exchanges, for example.
What they do is they gain access to real Bitcoin with this ETF, spot ETFs, to real price of Bitcoin, not futures, not speculation on future price, but real price that is actually happening now.
So they can trade these ETFs and gain access to a new asset, which is the biggest asset in crypto, without actually owning it, without actually having to create a wallet for Bitcoin or securing.
They actually need to have their keys for the exchange, but they already have some security measures on how to keep keys for exchanges, they know how to do this, these institutional and mainstream investors that trade on stock exchanges.
And at that moment, once the Bitcoin ETF, spot ETF gets approved, we have millions of investors that actually can start trading this, that wouldn't risk themselves into the crypto markets, whether it's Binance, even Coinbase, or any other of these assets where they don't trust with their funds.
Because centralized exchanges, you need to deposit funds, they go bust, you get nothing.
And these institutional investors, they trust BlackRock.
Well, I mean, think about it.
Where can you hold Bitcoin safely?
And for many of these institutions, they don't want to do self-custody as much as we push for self-custody on this show.
There are institutions, there are family offices, there are pension funds that they might not even be allowed to self-custody Bitcoin because they have some custody requirements of who they're allowed and approved to buy assets.
And who's the custodian of those assets.
So they need some big trusted, you know, party.
And, you know, for them, Coinbase is, you know, is not that trusted party necessarily.
But when, you know, BlackRock puts their stamp, this, that we are responsible, BlackRock is responsible for this.
And they're using Coinbase as a custodian.
That changes the whole game because now these family offices, et cetera, can much more easily start, you know, and reasonably to their, like a lot of people are, you know, imagine if you're a big pension fund for, you know, whatever.
Or an endowment like Harvard or you're like the Dental Association of America, whatever.
If you buy Bitcoin on Coinbase and then Bitcoin collapses, you do not have any, like, coverage.
You do not have any, you are seen as like, you are a fool.
Why did you do this with our money?
And you're fired and maybe never work in the industry again.
But if this is a product by BlackRock, you now have, you have cover.
You have live, you're not as liable because if everybody else is trusting BlackRock with this and you trust BlackRock, you're like, hey, look, it's BlackRock.
What do you want?
Yeah, that's right.
So it all comes down to, like, it's really the big, the problem Bitcoin's had in the past has kind of been a structural problem.
So it all comes down to, like, fiduciary responsibility.
And, like, essentially, the majority of the money in the markets is passive investments from, like, pensions and other things.
But it's not people actively managing the money.
It's, like, you know, huge, huge pension funds that, you know, are hundreds of billions of dollars.
And they move really slow and they can only invest in a certain number of assets because that's what their prospectus allows.
And they don't step outside of that at all, like, literally not at all, not one bit.
So they basically can only buy, you know, stocks, bonds, ETFs, that sort of thing.
And they'll usually have a very specific risk tolerance, like, they'll have, you know, a certain percentage in bonds and a certain percentage in stock.
And there might be some wiggle room depending on market conditions.
But almost all of these funds basically just stay – like, if anybody's read The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham, it's basically his whole playbook.
It's, like, you know, you do when you're younger, you're meant to do, like, you know, a certain percentage – yeah, a certain percentage in stocks and then a certain percentage in bonds.
And then as you get older, you're meant to transition to more bonds because you want the safety and so on.
But, yeah, so essentially these huge funds basically just do that.
The classic, like, you know, 60-40 portfolio.
Yeah, that's right, yeah.
Portfolio.
That's exactly it, yeah.
But the – so the point is, like, you know, these funds basically only do that because their whole job is to collect the fees on people's pensions as they grow them, like, just around the market average every year.
Like, that's the whole point.
And the idea is that when you come to retire as a normal person that knows nothing about the market that your assets have been kept safe.
Now, the problem is with Bitcoin previously is that none of those huge funds that make up the majority of the market – like, I don't know, it's some crazy amount, like, probably 80-plus percent of the market is just this.
And those funds aren't legally allowed to go on Coinbase and buy crypto.
They actually physically couldn't do it.
So, the entire segment of the market –
I think it's a drug.
Excuse me?
No, I can hear you, Ivan.
It's back.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah, so, like, the majority of the market couldn't actually physically access crypto.
Like, individual people can, but never, you know, never any sort of pension fund or anything like that.
But now it's on an ETF, and more importantly, you know, it's on an ETF that's been approved and custodied by major institutional players like BlackRock.
This can become a part of people's portfolio.
Now, you know, I don't think anybody's saying that people are going to be, like, you know, YOLO-ing all of their pension into crypto, and that's bad advice.
So, definitely don't do that.
But I think what will happen is BlackRock might go, okay, so we've got an asset that's been appreciating at, you know, hundreds of percent a year in some cases, but it goes through these crazy undulations and twists and turns.
So, it's quite risky, but if you add, like, a small percentage of that asset to your portfolio, then, overall, it'll increase the performance if you look in long term.
They'll probably say something like that.
I don't know what it'll be, but the idea, basically, is that, you know, they can increase the performance of a whole portfolio quite easily by adding a small amount of a risky asset if the risky asset is a good long-term bet in an inflationary environment, which is kind of what we are in.
So, I expect that BlackRock will be saying to their customers, look, we don't know what's going to happen with this, but it's performed very well.
You might want to put 5% or 2% or something into this.
And when that goes out to all of the big institutional funds, it's kind of like a floodgates moment because then, as soon as everybody can invest in it, the game theory is that you then have to invest in it because if you're fund A, who decides, I'm not getting involved with this,
and fund B down the road, their pensions outperform yours by 20% because they had a small allocation in Bitcoin, well, then, people will move the money from your fund to their fund because they want that exposure.
And so, the game theory, basically, is that basically all of the main funds, once this gets approved, will have to allocate some small amount to remain competitive.
So, it's kind of crazy.
Who knows what will happen with it in reality?
You know, all this currency sloshing around could be good or bad for the space.
But I think, in general, it's a very significant development.
And more importantly, finally, it's been fully legitimized.
This is it.
This is like ETF in the US.
That's as big as it gets.
People are, you know, this is it.
It's not like Bitcoin, scam coin.
No one cares about it anymore.
It's like, yeah, it's almost like it, like the threat of Bitcoin being banned is, like, pretty much gone.
It's like, it's the main street from the institution.
It's literally the regulators approving, you know, a Bitcoin product.
So, you know, funny, if you actually look at people might want to draw, like, some conclusions or, like, analogy to the gold ETF.
So, we haven't had gold ETFs for that long.
But gold ETFs really did transform the gold market.
Gold had actually been trading at, it was at, from, I think, that, I think, 1980 to, and you could look up a chart.
Just look up, like, a gold 100-year chart right now on Google.
But you'll see that gold was trading, I think, around, like, 600 in 1980.
It was stuck at 35 during gold standard for a long time.
Then Nixon took us off.
Then it started going up.
And it went up a bunch.
Then it pulled back.
And it's basically, for 24 years, gold was down.
Sideways and mostly down.
50% down after 24 years.
And it was, at that point, when the gold ETF was announced, and gold, I think, was around, like, 300 or 350 or something, that's when gold, you know, had its kind of moment in the sun.
And now it's a $10 trillion asset.
So, 24 years gold was down until that ETF was launched.
And now gold, from that point, is now up 8x, you know, which is pretty big in the last, in only the last 19 years.
Especially considering the market cap of gold.
Yeah, it's a massive.
It's a massive increase in just, like, 20 years.
Well, nothing compared to Bitcoin's increase in the last 10, 12 years.
But still, gold has been around forever.
So, Bitcoin's still in, like, its 0 to 1 phase.
And this gets us, you know, from 1 to 10 is, like, literally from a half a trillion market cap right now to a 10 trillion market cap, which is how I look at it.
I think Bitcoin is vastly superior to gold.
I'm a gold bug.
I love gold.
I own a lot of physical gold.
But I think Bitcoin in every aspect is, not every, but, like, out of, like, 20 different characteristics, Bitcoin beats gold on 18 of them.
And, you know, the other thing is, like, this is, this is how, truly, how, you know, your grandma gets to own Bitcoin.
Because, you know, your grandma's, realistically, your grandma's never going to buy a ledger.
I mean, I hope she does, but, like, you know, most people's folks aren't going to go buy a ledger, get a seed phrase and all this stuff.
But, you know, but what they might do is their pension fund might buy a small percentage of it and add it to their portfolio as part of their overall strategy for growth, right?
That's a much more reasonable scenario where people would end up owning Bitcoin.
And to, like, circle back a little bit and say, like, why this is relevant to, like, altcoins, like DogeChain and others, is that, so, what often happens is that when Bitcoin...
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
You've got to pause there.
No, not, you can't continue that sentence because you can't start talking about how this might affect, if you're talking about price, we cannot talk about DogeChain.
I mean, if you want to, I'll help you.
I haven't kept myself on the last basis.
It wasn't anything to do with price, to be honest.
It was more just to do with interest.
So, all I was going to say was, obviously, what happens in a lot of these cases when you have this big surge is people are...
They start thinking about, you know, Bitcoin because it's in the news and, you know, whatever.
And many people who participated in previous markets might then get reinvigorated.
They might get excited about the tech again and kind of come back to the, you know, people that are kind of, like...
A lot of people on this space are crypto people.
We've been in it for a while.
We kind of just, this is what we're interested in, so we're here all the time.
You know, Friday night, you're listening to a Twitter space on crypto.
And that's kind of, like, how we all live our lives.
But, you know, a lot of people have literally, you know, half a percent interest in the space.
They're just kind of passively interested.
They may have held some coins before or whatever.
But what happens is when this, you know, you get this crazy ETF-style explosion or whatever, people, it's all over the news.
You know, there's headlines being printed about cryptocurrency being back and all this stuff, lots of interest.
People come back into the space.
And then they start looking around, right, because it's like, you know, Bitcoin's interesting, but they're looking for other opportunities.
And then, you know, they can look at smart contracts and chains and stuff, and that's kind of how it filters down to altcoins.
Yeah, I mean, whenever Bitcoin starts mooning, yeah, we definitely see the rest of everybody starts coming in.
Like, I had friends who wanted to build NFTs.
I must have had 20 or 30 people I knew who were, like, semi-curious about crypto trying to build NFT projects in the last market.
It's like a big flag.
So, yeah, you'll see a ton of…
Bitcoin, when the price, well, not the price, but when anything happens with Bitcoin, so ETF approval is an example, it's like a big flag waving for the cryptocurrency market.
And then people are interested, and then they start doing research, and then they fall down the rabbit hole.
And, you know, maybe some of them will end up with NFT PFPs and, you know, like, drink the Kool-Aid kind of thing and end up in, like, full hardcore crypto mode within a few years.
You know, that's kind of the way a lot of us fell into the industry, so.
One thing we need to point out is why these ETFs are so important is that it reaches, as Jack said, to your grandma, to the mainstream public.
Instead of just…
The crypto market is really small compared to stock markets, ETFs, and everything like that.
So, once these get approved, if, hopefully, when, this, the volume will be astounding.
It should, as Rock pointed out earlier, it might, like, decouple the volume on Bitcoin and on the ETFs themselves, but it will be something that we haven't seen yet in the crypto markets.
We see it in every bull market, the volume shoots up incredibly, but this would be an event that is pretty much unprecedented.
Spot ETFs are something that are incredibly powerful when it comes to commodities like Bitcoin and gold, for example.
So, the impact on the volume and the interest from the mainstream will be incredible.
That's one thing that we need to understand.
You'll have, literally, I mean, you'll have, like, some of the biggest funds in the world, like BlackRock.
You'll have countries that will want to access it now that it has this stamp.
I mean, I would love to see…
Look, these fun bull runs and all this craziness, it's a lot of fun, right?
A lot of, you know, money to be made early on, but I want to get to a day where people, you know, your grandpa or, you know, your teacher in school or when people are saying how, you know, you know, put 10% of your income away as savings and S&P 500 and compound interest and all these lessons.
I want to get to a day where people aren't saying, oh, Bitcoin's going to 100x.
I want to get to a point where people are like, yeah, you better be, you know, putting 10% of your income away in Bitcoin as a savings instrument because that's what I see it becoming someday because once we get to this, like, global adoption phase, it'll be kind of like the U.S. dollar, which is…
It's come to this stable point, but now they, you know, they inflated away by it, you know, 2% to 10% a year or 20% or 40% or 70% depending on the country.
But Bitcoin will be the opposite.
Bitcoin will be at this stable place, but it should, because of the growth of just GDP and productivity of the world through technology and capitalism and these developments,
we'll just see Bitcoin will be a steady growth of, you know, 3% to 5% a year based on, like, global growth and population growth and people will just keep using it more and more.
But it'll just be a steady growth thing.
That's what I'm hoping for someday.
And I think I feel strongly about that.
A lot of it depends on…
90% chance of that happening.
A lot of it depends on how they treat their fiat currencies.
So, if they…
Whatever currency, whatever's the unit of currency at the time globally, if that's treated respectfully, it will have a…
You know, Bitcoin will probably have, like, level off, like you say, and then have a slow growth phase based on, like, how much economic activity is taking place.
But if they decide to reinvent some fiat currency and then trash it again over the next 30 years, 40 years, after they trash this one, then Bitcoin will continue to be hyper growth because it's only, you know, you're basically measuring it again.
Against goods and services, it won't hyper grow.
It'll kind of remain steady.
But against whatever, if they, you know, if they do some, like, you know, like, people talked for years about the SDR, the special drawing rights, which is, like, the IMS currency.
If they do something like that and then try and rope all the countries into some new fiat currency and then they blow that up over the next four decades, then I expect, you know, like, basically the same thing will repeat itself.
Like, it's a real change.
Yeah, you will have these volatile periods around global events until Bitcoin is, like, the alpha.
But, I mean, we've got so much room to go from here.
It's funny.
I hear Michael Saylor talk about Bitcoin in terms of, like, gold, property.
It'll take some market cap.
I notice he never talks about bonds.
And I know why.
Just from listening to him long enough, I know what he's doing.
He does not want to ruffle the regulator's feathers and the government's feathers.
So, like, people, like, you know, there's plenty of people out there, some, like, congressmen that talks trash and say, look at these Bitcoiners.
They're saying they're going to destroy the dollar.
Look at this is anti-American.
And so they hate it for that.
Michael Saylor is a lot smoother than that.
I know he believes it'll take part of the market share of what I truly believe is it's major, like, what it'll do eventually, which is bonds.
It's global, national bonds and corporate bonds.
I think Bitcoin will take a major part of that market share.
And that's a multi-hundred trillion dollar, like, pool of assets.
So he doesn't say it because I don't think – I think he wants to be friendly to the regulators.
He wants to be friendly to the countries.
But I know he's thinking this just by the way he thinks that this will address – I mean, currency and bonds, this will take a part of it.
I saw a really interesting tweet that's relevant to this recently, and it is related to Bitcoin price.
So I'm good with that, right?
Yeah, we can talk about Bitcoin price.
Okay, so here's the tweet, and this is just something that I – it's a concept I found really interesting.
So it's basically the mindset of people in cryptocurrency right now.
So the tweet was essentially saying that Bitcoin one day might reach, you know, these crazy valuations that everybody's always said it'll reach, like, 5 to 10 mil if it captures the bond market and all this stuff, right?
But the majority of crypto people won't have any by then because they'll sell out when it gets to 100 or 200K because they'll get their 10X or 20X or whatever they want and go buy a house.
Paper hands.
Yeah, and so this is the problem you've got, like, because you've got – once the big institutions move in, when you sell to them, they won't sell it back.
So it's, like, it's kind of an interesting thing where the game theory is, like, if the currency is going to die, like, the actual fiat currency in your country, if it's going to die, there is essentially no price that is worth selling at.
And so – but you don't – you can't see that because you don't know – you can't look far enough out as an individual to know that, like, in 10 years there's going to be a currency crisis or whatever.
You can't know that.
But if you think about how this plays out long term, just generally with fiat currency, you could see that at some point there might be a situation like that.
And so it's kind of an interesting thing because we're all going to be faced with a decision probably over the next few years as, you know, things kick into gear with the ETF and everything of, like, when is enough for you personally?
And then you've got to think long term is, like, if you was to sell something tomorrow for a high price and then the day – you know, the month after or years after, the currency you've got hyperinflates and that high price becomes a low price, then you've – you kind of lost.
And so it's a really interesting thing where – because you can't see far enough out into the future, you don't know what you're going to be faced with.
But one thing's for sure, and this is my opinion, once – the Bitcoin that the institutions get, they will never sell back into the market.
I think it will become – personal opinion, this is not backed by anything, but my personal opinion is that it will become a tier one reserve asset and they will only lend against it.
They'll never give it back.
That sounds plausible, man.
We talked, like, yeah, it sounds super plausible what you're advancing.
And we talked about this, like, last week, I think, on the last basis, me and Owen, like, that we had a bunch of – I had Bitcoin that I lost.
We had a bunch of Doge that he lost and other coins.
And we were talking about – would have we kept it until the 2021 bull run?
And the obvious answer is that 10 Bitcoin, I pretty much doubt that I would have even lasted 2018 with it when it hit 20K.
Fucking paper hands.
So – but I was in a different, you know, mindset then.
I was in a different financial situation as well.
So people need liquidity and crypto people, especially, they need a lot of liquidity at some point.
And when a number goes up, a lot of people take profits, which is normal, as you should.
But when big players like this come into play, you're selling your Bitcoin to them.
They will continue buying it on the open market.
That's what they're doing at the moment.
And I guess that's why the price of Bitcoin has been struggling this much because, you know, these big players need to stack up for their ETFs.
If they know that they're going to be approved and most likely they know something if they're already investing in this.
So they're stacking up hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin so that they can create those market shares for the mainstream public for it.
And you will be selling it to them.
And once you sell it to them, as Jack said –
You will be selling it to them.
I'm not selling it.
No, no.
I'm not selling it anymore.
I lost mine.
So mine has gone into a dump.
So I kind of participated in the Satoshi vision of if you lose your Bitcoin, you're participating in the deflationary mechanism of Bitcoin.
There's less on the market.
To see the news actually about that, it was – Jack, you know this Russian stuff better than I.
What's the guy who went down in the plane and his crew?
Pragutinov.
Oh, Pragutinov.
Pragutinov.
So now they're saying that he was associated with a Bitcoin wallet that had I think $3.2 billion of Bitcoin on it and that if he went down in a plane crash, I mean unless he had a proper succession like Will or someone else who knew the keys.
Look, who knows?
This is just rumor stuff.
Maybe it's not his wallet.
Maybe it's his gang or military wallet or who knows.
But there are going to be times where stuff like that does happen.
There are people who pass away who didn't have a way to pass on their Bitcoin and in Bitcoin, that Bitcoin is basically donated to everyone else by deflation.
So very different than U.S. dollars where any U.S. dollars that are lost that lead to deflation are just – they literally just – they just balance it out by printing more money because they target plus 2 percent price inflation.
So any – if you could have someone die with a tenth of all the world's U.S. dollars buried and no one knows about it, it wouldn't matter.
They would balance that out by just printing more.
But that doesn't happen in Bitcoin.
Those are – those Bitcoin are lost forever.
And, you know, many people estimate just from looking at the wallets and how they haven't moved in Stoci's wallets, you know, it's up to like 4, maybe even 5 million.
Almost, you know, like somewhere between, say, 10 to 25 percent, maybe 10 to 20 percent of the supply is lost forever.
And that's just donated to the rest of us to – you know, that's deflation.
Yeah, exactly.
And speaking of UTS…
So thanks for the Bitcoin you lost in the dump, Duderino.
I'll remember you when I buy my Cybertruck with some Bitcoin.
Would be interesting, Sika.
Andrew's view on the whole ETF thing.
I don't know if you're able to speak, Andrew, but if you are, I'd love to hear your opinions on all this.
Yeah, I mean, I just think – I think just, you know, it's a natural progression from Bitcoin eventually becoming a mainstream asset.
You know, I just think that from looking at Bitcoin 10 years ago, it was a very contrarian investment as a store of value and an immutable store of value.
And I just think an ETF eventually being adopted just eventually just validates that value proposition.
So I think it's a normal progression, and I think eventually we'll have more ETF adoption for Bitcoin.
Same with Ethereum as well.
Yeah, I was going to say, do you think we'll get Ethereum straight after?
Or like, we'll be delayed through the next market?
Kathy Wood with ARK has applied for both a futures and a spot Ethereum ETF.
They're expecting the futures one to be approved very shortly, but the spot ETF is hopefully going to go after the Bitcoin ones if they actually get approved.
So yeah, Ethereum is up there as well.
Well, look, I have been a bit biased, and I'm trying not to – I'm trying to push my biases away as a Bitcoiner, but – and I'm an Ethereum-er too.
But I've like kind of, I guess in my head, kind of hoped that that wouldn't happen because I want Bitcoin – that my fantasy is the world reserve currency and Ethereum as this more like a, you know, a decentralized computer, you know, virtual machine.
But I think being more fair and not biased, I think it's really – it's very hard for them not to approve.
And I do want an Ethereum ETF.
I just want a little delay.
Maybe Bitcoin.
Give Bitcoin a little time to shine.
Then we go through.
But I don't think – it's just hard legally like with due process and how these things work.
How do you deny Ethereum if you approve Bitcoin?
I mean really, it's – what are you going to argue?
I guess it's a smaller market cap, maybe not as tested of a market.
There are some arguments, but it gets harder to argue that unless, you know, they try to deem Ether security and that changes things a little bit.
But I imagine it could happen – look, no one knows, but it could happen, you know, relatively soon after Bitcoin.
I mean just because – the SEC can't just say no to things.
They have to give reason.
And we're seeing judges that are coming out now and fighting and even like getting a little snarky with the SEC.
I mean if you saw in the last – in the last, I think, response the judge gave, I think it was to grayscale, the judge wrote out.
You can see it in the report.
Something like, you know, that – I forget what they said.
Something hinting or implying that the SEC was maybe a little out of order on this and that they shouldn't be bringing this.
They shouldn't be coming to these judges that this is actually, if anything, a matter for Congress and that, you know, the SEC is kind of maybe overstepping their bounds here.
So there – and there's been many judges who have said things like this.
Like with the Binance thing, the judges had – I mean there was a serious legal team for Binance, including some old big-time regulators who are on Binance's team now,
who basically like made the SEC look kind of stupid and said, what are you talking about?
Why would we freeze their assets?
They're not some flight risk.
They're not going to take people's money and run with it.
That's the only time you would freeze assets if there was an immediate danger to holders.
The more immediate danger to the holders is that we freeze the assets and then cause their business to collapse and cause them not to be able to, you know, honor their creditors, you know, the people that have assets there.
Or that we freeze the assets and cause a crash in the price, which only hurts the users.
All this SEC stuff, I think it's pretty clear to me, has not helped the user, has not helped the consumer, the average investor.
It's only hurt them.
So the judges are getting a little pissed off about this.
And I don't want it to be a left versus right thing, but, you know, having one side ally, which is generally the conservatives in the United States right now seem to be more allied with crypto, oddly.
It's better than having everyone against you, you know, if you make it a political left versus right thing, then it can't die, right?
Someone, one side will fight for it.
They'll get their time in office for four years and then the other one will.
And, you know, then you kind of got like, you know, RFK is a Democrat and he supports crypto, right?
He holds Bitcoin and stuff.
Yeah, the Cynthia Loomis, what is it, the Loomis-Gelebron or something?
The other, the girl is, that's a left and right written bill.
So that's what we, I really want to see.
I hope this doesn't get too partisan, but partisan isn't such a bad thing either.
As long as one of the sides strongly supports it, it's hard to ban it, right?
Yeah, and I think, like, it's really key what you said about SEC, like, a lot of this comes down to what the actual intent of the SEC is.
So it's been clear, I think, for a while that consumer protection isn't actually the main motivator for some reason.
I'm not sure at what point Gary got all twisted up about this.
Probably around the time he shilled Algorand and maybe they burned him or he tried to apply for a job at Binance and they rejected him.
Probably somewhere around there, he decided that he didn't like the space or whatever.
But, I mean, you know, it's becoming clear and I think a lot of the judges are seeing this now with the way that they're responding to this.
Is it an element of maliciousness?
Yeah, sort of a witch hunt or something like that.
Yeah, and I think the problem that he's run into, unfortunately, is if Gary wanted to be malicious,
he should have done it three years ago.
But now he's waited until the companies that he's trying to maliciously pursue are actually quite large and sophisticated
and have tried to follow the rules that he's set, well, the guidance that he's not given.
And they've got sophisticated legal teams that know how to navigate and know how to operate within the various jurisdictions that they're in.
And so they've grown to a point where they can actually effectively fight back.
And so, you know, you've seen this with the Coinbase thing.
You know, Brian Armstrong's come out and said, look, we've complied with literally everything that you've asked us to do.
And you're still prosecuting us.
You know, this is insane.
And they didn't just comply.
They actively pursued regulation.
They said, please regulate us.
We want to be regulated.
Give us the rules and we will play by the rules.
But if you don't tell us the rules, it's impossible for us to play.
And, you know, you had Gemini win as far as the Winklevoss twins pissed off some people with this,
some more cyberpunk types and kind of anarchists and such.
But they, if you guys remember the campaign they had, I remember being in, I think, New York for consensus maybe and seeing these billboards saying crypto needs rules.
And there was a lot of people that got pissed at that.
But look, they're trying to play a game with the regulators.
So at a certain point, it's how do you attack them when they're coming to you?
You know, Coinbase released basically a bunch of evidence documents that they had requested to speak with the SEC like every week for like years.
And they actually started meeting with the SEC.
But the SEC would never give them any information, would only basically gather information in their, now we know, they were plotting to attack them.
Yeah.
It's unbelievable.
So, yeah.
There's like an interesting thing.
In 2015, 16, and even into 17, and even 18 after the crash, I remember when people would ask me like, you know, how can this fail?
Or I would ask myself and I would try to really think, you know, am I missing something?
Are there blind spots?
My biggest fear was that, you know, G7 countries could come together or, you know, or more or, you know, G20 or others could come together and ban this thing.
And I know that wouldn't stop it because this is technology and technologies, even if they get held back for 100 years, they always end up coming out, right?
Like you could have banned the internet and it would have, eventually we would have figured out that the internet is a good thing, right?
So I was always worried that they could do this ban and it might delay the adoption of crypto.
And then it started occurring to me, you know, 2019, 2021, and even much more so now, 22, 23, that we have regulatory capture, right?
We have corporate capture.
We have way too many institutions and senators.
There's 13 out of 100 senators who have publicly, that's just the public ones that we know, have declared that they own Bitcoin.
Bitcoin, you have now four, I think, or maybe five now presidential candidates that have Bitcoin as part of their platform.
Like, it's too late.
That's just to what you were saying, Jack.
It's too late.
You know, he tried to attack too late.
And this is what we always hoped for Bitcoin.
And even in Satoshi's early writings is, and he didn't say this part, I'll say this part, but then I'll explain what he said, which is that we basically need to kind of Trojan horse our way in.
We need to slowly slip in, let them laugh at us like Gandhi, right?
Let them think we're just some silly little magic internet money that'll never actually work.
And then slowly, like a frog being boiled, we slip into the mainstream.
Some regulators, some of the richest, biggest people in the world, like Elon Musk and Jamal Paliapatiya and et cetera and et cetera, they start to buy in.
PayPal gets in.
And now every country in the world is, like, getting in to some extent, right?
And now it's too late.
They cannot ban this thing.
They're going to have, I think, even a hard time being aggressive about the regulation moving forward.
It's getting harder and harder for them to do silly things or especially not have proper due process of law.
And I'll give one more, like, little anecdote from Satoshi.
So early on, when Bitcoin didn't have a lot of use cases, there was, like, Silk Road was kind of the first real use case that proved that this was, like, a real thing that could be used in the real world, like it or not.
Maybe not your best intro to something, but, you know, some people like it.
But anyways, then later, WikiLeaks started getting blocked by Visa and PayPal.
Started blocking WikiLeaks per government order, basically, or government pressure, I should say.
Started blocking WikiLeaks.
And I think it was the Bitcoin community was reaching out and pushing WikiLeaks to take Bitcoin for donations because that's how they live, through donations.
So if they were getting blocked by Visa, and I don't even know if we had PayPal yet.
I think we did.
But, you know, whatever, all these entities, banks started blocking WikiLeaks donations, shutting people's banks down.
And Satoshi said on the forums, guys, stop.
Please do not use Bitcoin.
I think he reached out to whoever was running WikiLeaks.
Was that Assange?
Yes, I think so.
I think he reached out to him and said, please do not take Bitcoin for donations.
We do not want this kind of attention.
We're too small.
We could be destroyed.
We do not want that kind of attention right now.
Let us grow quietly in the background.
And and but, you know, I think Assange went against it and he actually did take Bitcoin and it worked out very well.
Got a lot of fame for Bitcoin and now proved a new use case for it, which is censorship resistance.
And so, you know, but Satoshi was worried for the same reasons I was worried in like still in 2015 that we weren't big enough yet that we could be shut down.
They could, you know, push us into not not shut it down, but push us into like a quiet, meaningless existence or shame, you know, for a while until the technology was able to kind of come out, which could be delayed 10 or 20 years of something like that.
You know, the government did that early on, but now it's too late.
So I think the interesting thing is, is by the time we became a real threat, it was already too late to stop.
And that's kind of a really interesting concept.
It's like it all the time when we when we weren't a problem, like nobody, nobody was really looking at the situation at all in any detail apart from, you know, like generally just like casting it aside and writing it off.
And like the mainstream would always publish articles about Bitcoin's died and all this stuff.
And now that now that we are becoming, you know, fast becoming probably like global, the world's global salmon layer, I guess, over the next like 10 years.
And at this point, it's impossible to stop anyway.
And a lot of countries are just getting on board.
But you see that the president of the lead presidential candidate for Argentina recently, that guy with a crazy hair has just recently come out and said he's a really big supporter.
And one other thing as well, I've asked Ivan to put this tweet here on the Jumbotron because it's...
I was just wondering, what is this?
So this is Richard Hart. Richard Hart, obviously, is under fire at the moment from the SEC, but he's compiled a list of cases that are really useful to people fighting.
Hey, Jack, I don't know if it's just me, but maybe if you speak a little louder, it's a little quiet for me.
I don't know if it's for anyone else.
Yeah.
Right. OK. Apologies.
So, yeah, this is a list of case law that's favorable for the crypto community so that if you ever find yourself in the need of like any kind of like legal aid, like this is a really big list of things that prove different points.
So if you click on, for everybody that's got the, can get this tweet up, if you click on the image, it's just like a bunch of cases, like so-and-so be this person and so on.
And it proves different points related to cryptocurrency, like code is law.
There's just a million different ones, like code is free speech.
And it's really useful for people that are working in the crypto law industry, but also people that are just interested in the space.
And it shows that there's a body of case law that's building up on our side, which is really interesting.
Like, you know, it's obviously took so long to get to this point, but it seems like finally the courts, you know, seem to be making more and more favorable decisions, which is great.
Interesting. I'll take a look.
I'm not, I don't personally like Richard Hart for my own reason, mostly because he talked crap on Bitcoin and turned his back on it, but that's for another day.
But I think no endorsement of Richard Hart or Hex in that.
It's just a really interesting compilation of cases that I think everybody should look at.
Yeah, I'll definitely take a look.
Look, Richard Hart is, the guy is borderline genius.
I mean, he may be a genius.
He's very smart.
Also, I think a little manipulative, but very smart and, you know, was early to the game in Bitcoin.
I have my own personal reasons for, you know, our little rivalry kind of stuff.
If anybody was around for the Polygon quick swap Hex community, which I actually like a lot of people from the Hex community, but not a fan of Richard for some other reasons.
Anyways, the guy's smart and what is interesting about it is that this is similar to like XRP.
I was never a big fan of XRP, but when they got attacked by the SEC, I was like, hey, you know, and I hate to say that the SEC is like our enemy, but they've shown that certain members of the SEC, not all.
Like, you know, we have Hester Pierce, you know, crypto mom, Bitcoin mom.
So anyways, the SEC has kind of shown that they are adversarial to us.
I don't want to call them our enemy.
And I hope they get their shit together and start, you know, working for the people and not against them here.
But the kind of enemy of your enemy is your friend in some cases, right?
XRP, I started supporting them because of their legal case.
I don't like XRP as a product personally.
Not my thing.
Some people it is.
I have no disdain towards them.
But I did support that they were fighting for, you know, the rights of crypto people to build whatever they want and let the market decide.
Same thing with, you know, Coinbase.
I had my issues with them about their stance on Bitcoin also at times.
But, you know, when they were fighting the SEC and fighting for our rights here, I will support them.
I even donated to them to their legal cause.
And, you know, there's many others.
So, you know, right now, this is one of the things where it's like we can't have infighting in this industry.
I say it all the time, whether it's Bitcoin maxis versus DeFi, whether it's, you know, early on Ethereum trying to fight Polygon
or Doe's trying to fight Doe's chain and all this and caught in the cosmos, all the infighting that happens between leadership and builders there.
There's so much infighting in this industry.
And it's just silly because we've got bigger fish to fry, guys.
We don't have time for this infighting.
You know, we don't have time to fight each other when we have people like the SEC, very powerful people in the world,
the biggest banks, governments who would love to see us crash and burn.
And so I do support people who are who are fighting against this overstep by government agencies.
And Richard Hart is a very wealthy guy, has a lot of very wealthy friends.
So does XRP and Coinbase and Binance and BlackRock now and PayPal and Venmo and Visa and everybody else involved in this.
That it's like the SEC is definitely biting off more than they can chew at this point.
And they've said that much in some hearings saying we don't have the funding to fight all this.
We need more funding.
I think the CFTC also said that.
I hope I'm quoting correctly.
They don't need more funding.
They need to stop pursuing malicious cases.
Yeah.
And then if they just went after the actual bad actors, they probably have plenty of funded.
Yeah.
Look at Jake.
Jay Clayton was the previous head of the SEC.
Was SEC or CFTC?
Yeah, SEC.
And he and he was seen as like a crypto attacker, sheriff, whatever you want to call.
He is.
So he was very aggressive against us.
Now the guy's appearing on on CNBC and are on Forbes and things talking about how he sees stable coins is very important for the world moving forward.
And that he, the guy who was against crypto, old SEC chairman, now when he's out of office and working in the private sector, his opinion randomly changes.
I don't think it's fucking random.
I think, you know, it's it's a sad state.
I don't want to go into it.
Anyways, he's being positive about this.
And he said that Gary, he tried to be respectful.
You know, he didn't want to attack Gary, the new SEC chairman.
They have a little, you know, nudge, you know, nod thing with each other.
But he said, look, they're taking off, biting off more than they can chew.
He said that they are that, you know, that Gary said, if we're not pursuing, if we're not losing cases, it means we're not fighting hard enough.
Basically, Gary was saying we're going to take on, you know, they had 150 cases they took on in the last couple of years.
And he's so proud of that.
But it's like, dude, you're losing a lot of these cases.
The SEC shouldn't be losing because the SEC shouldn't be pursuing things that have a high chance of loss.
And historically, they don't do that.
They don't lose very many cases because they're supposed to go for sure things that this is a scammer.
These are criminals.
This is fraud.
This is hurting investors, not things that investors are buying because they want the thing.
But you disagree about the thing and whether it's relevant to the world or not.
That's not their fucking place.
And here's the thing with, in relation to stable coins as well, because you brought that up and about the previous SEC share, like supporting stable coins.
I mean, so like, think about this, right?
This, obviously, you know, US dollar, most liquid currency in the world.
But the way that you actually pay with it internationally is horrendous.
To want a better expression, like, you know, you've got like settlement that can take, you know, weeks, sometimes, like, you know, definitely days, at least, never hours.
You've got to go, you know, you've got to provide your ID, you've got a wire, you do like a wire transfer or whatever, or a BACS payment for the UK.
It goes internationally.
It takes, it can arrive within a few days, but it might settle after a week or more.
Everybody's like quite tense.
In some cases, some.
And then, and then, as well, of that, there's loads of people in between that can say, no, we don't like this transaction, we're not doing it.
Whereas, as an alternative experience, like, I think the most wide, we were discussing this recently, Rock, like, I think Tron is probably the most widely circulated, like, USDT on Tron.
It's like the most widely used network, right?
You can go to Dubai, you can buy a property in Dubai with Tron, with USDT on Tron, and, you know, like, it'll arrive within, like, three seconds or something like that, and no intermediaries in between.
So, like, I don't understand, like, why they're even, it's, it's the most, stable coins make the US dollar more relevant.
That's the insane thing.
And they, and they, at a time when they're struggling for relevancy, when the BRIC nations are turning away from the dollar and everything else, they could have, you know, there's this thing Fed now, right, which we, we should all look into, because that's, like, an interesting spin on this.
But it's like, you know, the cryptocurrency, the whole market adopted the US dollar as the standard with stable coins that everything is, like, priced in USD.
And the, instead of embracing that, the US government's just shit all over it and tried to run all the custodians out of town, like, you know, they closed the USD down, they sued Circle.
These are backed by treasuries.
I know.
Why in God's name would we want to mess with that?
you have the crypto people some of the biggest projects in crypto are backed by treasuries how
are we not embracing that the crypto industry is going to run global currencies and bonds out of
the door but we have they have a chance they have a chance of getting the crypto industry
to build on top of their shitty system and they're fighting it yeah that's that's a great point man
like the whole usdc usdt uh busd thing especially the ones that were in the us you know paxos and
circle like they that was a great to be honest right to be frank the demand for us treasuries
is waning to put it mildly um you know it looks like uh probably with the whole bricks thing and
you know basically the demand is going to slow into the future and this was one area maybe one area
debatable but yeah i'm not i'm not being uh too negative on the americans apologies guys
the point is like hey don't make us go to war with you again you filthy brit this is one
this is one area though where demand was actually growing really fast and that one area where that
they had the chance to you know like i capture a new market let's say and believe me there's not
many new markets and treasuries have been around hundreds of years um and they had one chance and
they was like no we don't want that but it's like struggling to get people to buy treasuries
for the last decade china's dumping their treasuries it's like they're saying that these
that you know these uh coins are unstable and everything but it's like treasuries you know if
you go into traditional financial institutions a u.s treasury is like the best collateral you can
have outside of actual dollars uh it's like literally you know tier one reserve asset like
us saying bitcoin might be cool and um it just it's unbelievable to me that they took that opportunity
and shit all over it they should be someone congress if you're listening i hope you are
someone should be campaigning and fighting and saying we want to i don't know what they would call it not
deputize but bank bank you ties usdc and get them into their system and say hey you are now instead of
how the central banks manage you know currencies or even just regular banks like you know uh local
and regional etc and the big bank let them let usdc thrive why would you not do this why would you not
do this you are giving modern rails to your it's it's a layer on top it's kind of like how bitcoin is slow
so you need lightning network well us dollars are slow and have all their problems and don't play in
in a virtual world properly that we're building so get let you usd is the rapper usdc and usdt are
rappers of usd so just put some regulations on it uh i'm not a big stable coin fan anyway so i don't
care i'll hold my bitcoin as my stable coin and you know my eth and polymatic and doge but uh let them
let them have their you know build up and if they did that today imagine if the u.s said we are making
usdc one of our one of our bank partners that can now basically they don't even need to like they
just need to buy treasuries they don't even need it it's not like they need a mint you know dollars
they don't need to be part of the central bank system necessarily they could be uh i think it
would be smart for the u.s to try to get on that bandwagon but if they could just embrace these stable
coins and even usdt say hey usdt you know what we're sorry we messed with you so much we want to
work with you usdt usdc if you guys agree and we'll and we'll go and we'll let us have third
party or or federal audits or whatever and you guys will have 80 in treasuries and and mostly
short dated for safety and then 20 in cash we will we will approve you and we will allow all banks to
custody you we will allow all funds to custody you imagine you could see stable coins go to trillions
of dollars and that would all be backed by us treasuries why is no one doing this how stupid
are our politicians well the the other thing and you can provide some insight here based on you
you were with quick swap and other dexes is like um how much how much of a monopoly usdc had on the
price uh like oracles and stuff so like i think but correct me if i'm wrong here rob but i think you
said once that usdc is like hard-coded into a lot of dexes as the price most reference price
yes yeah so it's like so that you know if the u.s would have just been reasonable circle they could
have easily captured the majority of the market like easily and that would have you know as the
industry grows into crazy big industry over the next 10 years that could have been a significant
source of uh treasuries demand for treasuries it's insane i mean a massive amount of demand for
treasuries and like i said treasuries are struggling the u.s is having to buy our own
treasuries through our convoluted weird system because china and others are dumping they're
having a hard time selling treasuries now that has changed a bit now with them raising the rate
so much but that's only a temporary thing that can't stay forever they will go back down close
to zero i think eventually that's my opinion it could not who knows but uh if you're having trouble
selling treasuries here you go guys get the crypto industry on your like it's like they're
trojan horsing us i don't know why they wouldn't want to do this it actually works out for both
parties you can't beat them join them it's you know let's work together i think this is the
negative side effects of malicious regulation because when you when your default is that you
know everything's bad we need to i think one of the one of the uh politicians in the u.s said that
ftx was a snake in a garden of snakes instead of being a snake in a beautiful garden or something
like that and it it's like when that's your opinion well i mean you know you're going to turn
away significantly great opportunities that could have grown into you know like a real bonus for the
u.s economy it's like similar thing with the uk at the moment right so the uk introduced some
legislation that's a little bit draconian for cryptocurrency companies and a lot of people
as a result uh moving out of the country because of that legislation and it's like you could have had
you could have had you know all the tax and the innovation and all this stuff and instead you
chose to be heavy-handed with it and then you've you know you've lost it essentially it's such a
shame and i think you know nations that are more agile and a bit more forward thinking and smaller
are going to clean up here in ways that like you know wouldn't have been possible before so like
think about el salvador right yeah i was going to say the same thing they're going to have the last
el salvador is like literally pivoting its entire country over the last three years to the point
where it's it's almost positioned as a global leader in innovation when previously it was literally
the murder capital of the entire world and that's unbelievable and you can say what you want about
bekele whether it's you know being a bit dictatorial or whatever he might be but the fact that you've
taken a country from probably the worst place to live in the world to a global center for
innovation in three years it's pretty astounding you know and if they are successful then other
countries will try to emulate other smaller countries will try to emulate that path as we go into the
next cycle i believe like we see with argentina and some of the other ones you know like think about
like this if you have a weak currency you know why why would you why would you bother fighting
against the tide with an incredibly weak currency in a global market that you don't control
why not just adopt uh bitcoin or something like that as the reserve asset and then you don't need
to worry about your central bank policy
well we saw what i mean yeah like el salvador i mean it's been an incredible like it's been an
incredible journey there um and they're they're not totally like the lowering in crime and things
aren't directly because of bitcoin but the same leader that was late able to eliminate murder and
crime and massively increased tourism also is a big bitcoiner and fighting for the people on that so
i don't think that's a you know a coincidence the thing is uh if the etfs get approved and uh bitcoin
actually gets that mainstream attention uh el salvador is going to get the the last laugh
in this story because the thing is a lot of people uh were you know berating uh bukele and and the
country for having uh chosen bitcoin as a reserve currency as a uh to to to have to heavily invest in
in bitcoin uh in the first place as a country and uh because of the bear market it it doesn't it hasn't
played uh that much in their favor yet but as we all know these things come in cycles and uh
eventually they will come on top and that that's when uh we will see uh other countries that uh have
the similar problems that el salvador had especially with their currency uh and and banking system to uh
to start shifting towards uh towards uh cryptocurrencies bitcoin in particular so uh yeah uh it's it's a matter
of time really it's a matter of time well they're trying to have their own sovereignty and that's what
countries want this is why part of the reason why brics is getting any traction at all is because
you know even allied countries of ours are worried that the u.s is uh taking a non-neutral stance like the
currency should not be in my opinion shouldn't be a weapon i think when you start using it as a weapon
you get people using other things right you get people if you punish people for using u.s dollars
they're going to use bitcoin or they're going to use euros or they're going to use something else if
you try to freeze people's accounts and including entire countries like russia or sanctioning entire
countries like iran etc uh then these people you know not only are the people being sanctioned
going to have to find other options not it's not even their choice you're forcing them to find
other options they're not just going to sit down and die and stop having their people you know conduct
commerce or feed themselves or build you know the country's not going to just lie down because the
u.s said you know we're going to spank you uh and i'm not saying that i agree with the things these
countries are doing and you know i i do disagree with many of these countries that are sanctioned like
north korea and some others i i don't want to get into all that but uh but when you punish people
not only do they start to find alternatives other people start looking around thinking wait
could they punish us we need alternatives we the whole world is so dependent on the u.s dollar
and i'm i mean i love the united states the greatest country in the world but uh i'm worried that our
position of power is actually hurting our country because it's making us it's making us lazy it's making
us we're spending too much on military around the world being the police of the world that the caught
like the u.s dollars world reserve is great for us but it makes us weaker because that's our main
export now we don't export goods we export dollars to the world and then we buy goods with those
dollars but if that dollar system fails we need you know we're going to be we're so dependent on that
that luxury that uh i worry that it's making america weaker and i actually think that if the u.s
moved away or not they won't do it by choice but if eventually other things start popping up like
bitcoin or bricks or whatever people just start trading more in regional currencies uh when they
do trade between each other um i i am worried what could happen to the u.s but i i think over time
i think it'll be good can you guys hear me uh yeah sorry i sorry i gotta i gotta call it cut me out but
anyways um i think i think the u.s will be in a stronger better place if we didn't have the world i know
it's like weird to think and uh maybe doesn't make sense initially but i think it would be better for
the u.s to not be having to police the world in military with our in protect this world reserve
currency and get back to what we were good at for you know hundreds of years which is being you know
producing real goods producing real value and not just printing money to get the goods that we want
and be like stupid consumers that just get free money from the government i don't think that's good
for us i think it's weakening us i think that there's some great points and just to touch on
one thing that you said about this you know the use of sanctions like the weaponization of the u.s dollar
i think what one thing to remember about this so what we hear in the media a lot is like you know
the u.s has placed sanctions on x country like russia more recently in north korea and you sort of
imagine that that somehow hurts the leaders or whatever and in many cases it sort of doesn't really
because the leaders of the country will still find ways around it you know they're rich they're
not on the breadline there it's got multiple assets in different areas and it's got legal
structures to get around things but when you hear like you know it's crashed the economy of russia or
whatever what you're actually hurting there is the real people like their businesses their imports are
more expensive or they can't import in a lot of cases which makes people's businesses go under which
makes normal people lose their jobs their homes and lose their purchasing power and that like that's
really really distressing you know the fact that there's sanctions on various countries around the
world that are very very poor countries you can understand you know like these guys don't don't
agree with the regime that's in control of those countries and you know that makes a lot of sense a lot
of these regimes are doing evil things but ultimately the way that sanctions affect a country
is they ruin its economy which ruins the lives of the normal people in that country it doesn't ruin
the lives of the leadership it just makes their lives inconvenient and that's a real thing to think
you know when you say like you know we're only putting sanctions on a country well sanctions on a
country can cause a famine and that can kill millions of people and that's that's the reality of you know
when we weaponize the u.s dollar it's not just oh you know we're going to drive the gdp down a few
points you know it could mean people actually dying as a result and that's why it's such a dangerous
thing and one thing that was clear i i realized back in early 2022 when russia invaded ukraine
and the u.s and europe seized all of russian financial assets outside of russia that there was no
going back like there's no there's no reason the swiss banks which has previously remained neutral for
hundreds of years and this is the problem like when you if you steal i think one one estimate was
initially this is before the sanctions this was just the seizures it was something like 600 billion
dollars right when you go down that route and steal you know almost half you know more than half a
trillion dollars from a country um and it's not you know russia's not it's it's it's a large country
but it's not a rich country when you take that amount of national wealth away from a country
and there's no then they're never going to participate in your system again it doesn't
matter what happens they're never going to join they're never going to rejoin the global
like u.s dollar system why why would they risk that again you know you're talking that's a
significant amount of their wealth that they've managed to amass over a period of time there is
no way on earth they'll re-participate in the u.s system and buy u.s treasuries and sink kumbaya again
they're walking away for good and it's who they take with them and the problem we've got is
you know the u.s dollar was like you know dependent basically on people trading commodities for
u.s dollars and that's like the medium of exchange internationally that's why people say petrodollar
and all this stuff because the petrochemicals being the largest most liquid commodity sector
and the brick and the deal the deal that i think nixon made with saudi arabia yeah he'll protect the
oil oil in u.s dollars and but the problem with that is now if you look at the recent editions i i posted
about this in our group rock where um some of the recent additions to the bricks nations
is like saudi arabia you know some of the oil producing nations and so and the bricks nations
have all decided to um not to all trade bilaterally which basically means that they're trading in their
local currencies rather than trading in u.s dollars so you've got the situation where the oil producing
nations even now are saying that they they don't want to participate in the u.s system because of
what's happened over the last year and you know when you alienate a large commodities producer like
russia produces a lot of oil and natural gas and says you're not welcome in our system well all the
other commodities producers like you said are going to look around then and go well we can't have that
level of risk so we're not participating in the system either if you want oil from us you're going
to have to pay us in something else uh you know like gold or at least they're going to hedge their risk
and lower their exposure so they're not a hundred percent dependent yeah definitely i think i think
what's gonna go ahead i was just gonna say like one thing that would be good for everybody to be
honest is if some of these larger commodities trades were settled in bitcoin or crypto because
hundred percent it's not it's that's what i was gonna get to yeah there is no counterparty risk
person a country a sends money to country b country b says oil to country a great so nobody can ban it
there's no no there's no center in that transaction there's there you remove the trade in balance like
countries there's this weird thing where countries worry about like if one country's exporting too much
or one country's importing too much then they don't have enough dollars and then they need to get more
they need to like ramp up dollars and they do weird things where they purchase bonds to balance this and
like if everybody just used bitcoin there would be no more of that and it was the thing like people
people are looking at this like well you know what what would happen to the fees and all this stuff and
yeah it would be more traction on the network but this isn't like people buy like millions of people
around the world buying coffee with their like bitcoin and it driving the fees up or creating ordinals
this is like very large transactions so and the way you know bitcoin processes transactions
you know it's like it doesn't matter if there's a dollar basically it doesn't matter if there's a dollar
or a hundred million in the transaction uh it's a transaction right so you pay the transaction fee
the block space at that time whatever it is we've seen multi-billion dollar transactions for a dollar
yeah and so this is the thing like why why would you why would you participate in a system that doesn't
want you to participate in it it actively wants you gone your transaction may get censored the
transaction is going to be expensive it's going to take a week to clear properly like to actually settle
um and it's beholden to an entity that you don't really like in some cases controlling that
transaction and saying yes you can go ahead or not or you could use a global decentralized network
settle within 30 minutes for a dollar and you know the issue here problem go ahead ivan
the issue here uh well it it does solve why the countries haven't done this yet it's because
a lot of them they use debt to uh loans to to buy these uh commodities so they they loan
these usdt usd usd usd us dollars so that they can repay them and then they buy electricity or
whatever with with this money and uh for to to be able to do this with bitcoin they will have to find
an entity that will loan them this bitcoin so that they can repay it uh or to have the cash
actually in their treasury to actually buy this bitcoin and then start oh my god uh sorry
uh so that uh this is the the main friction point is that the lending market the the loan market is
not uh between huge entities like this between countries uh with bitcoin is not functional yet
at least let me let me simplify there's i think there's a a more simple way to put it uh that
everybody will understand more easily which is why would putin even though unless he is forced into
it which he's at the border of being forced into it uh but why would putin who controls the money
printer want to go to bitcoin where he does not control the money printer it's the people at the top
with the money printer are gonna hold on to that with dear life until they just realize that it's a not
a net positive for them that you know you'll see currencies collapse and slowly move to bitcoin
and you know but yeah countries aren't going to just give up the money printer guys they're going to
go out in blazing glory i mean he might nuke people before he gives up his money printer uh but
eventually the people will will demand this as currencies get weaker and we see collapse after
collapse in countries which has been happening for hundreds of years well guess what if we all
move to bitcoin together there will be no more collapses of currencies and it solves really the
byzantine generals problem which is like hard a hard one to kind of explain but it's basically saying
if there's multiple armies attacking one like uh base or castle but you don't know if you could
trust these armies because what if they're on the they're on the other uh like what if they're
you know a spy for the other team you don't know you just these are people horsemen in the night
is that guy really your ally because he's not your team right so how do you coordinate with you know
with each other to fight this central enemy uh and the problem is like you send a messenger what if that
messenger is uh like taken over what if he's a spy and so this was this big best byzantine generals
problem of how do you how do you work together with people that may not be your direct allies or you
may not be able to trust and this is what bitcoin solved was the byzantine general from now people
enemies and friends can transact together and they don't have to trust each other they don't have to
know oh if i take this bitcoin from russia is it real bitcoin or are they going to scam me are they
going to reverse the transaction are they going to censor it is the u.s going to seize my assets
you don't have to worry about that anymore bitcoin solve this bitcoin is the money of enemies and friends
and i think you know when these countries are fighting right now you see bricks making headlines
because more countries are joining it i'm less hopeful of bricks i think maybe it just helps the u.s
get their kind of shit together and stop weaponizing the dollar so much because we're abusing our
power and if you abuse your power you lose your power um so i'm hoping that the u.s will get their
shit together uh but um i think you know bricks is not going to be that successful they've been trying
to do this for a long time guys decades uh and it's never gotten any traction they they started the
the ibf or something it's like it's their version of the imf and it's then they started this fund where
they're supposed to help developing countries they never issued one dollar to that fund it's never
done anything they've had very hard time because these are adversarial countries russia and china
historically are not like super good friends uh brit like india and china are not good friends they
have very they have border wars happening like yeah they always have like hunt hunt skirmishes with
like on the border these guys you're talking about trying to unite a bunch of like some of them are
like you know south africa is a democracy there's a couple countries in it that are democracies but
a lot of them are like kind of dictators they're the outcasts of the world they're the people that
aren't led into nato they're the people that aren't led into g7 they're the people that aren't led into
these uh world kind of trade agreements and it's going to be very hard i just don't see i just don't
have a lot of confidence that those people are going to get together and make a money together or a
trading system together uh and not have major arguments about it like who's going to control the
printer does each country get the printer does depend on population does depend on gdp i just
don't see it happening and i think they're all going to realize in the next five years i believe
they're going to realize bitcoin ethereum defy doge even doge would be a million times better
currency than bricks like a million times better currency in every way because it also solves the
byzantine generals problem uh so anyways but i think countries will transact with bitcoin as a
settlement layer uh i think that would be the you know if they really wanted to upend the global
markets and cause shockwaves having the the bricks block come out and say we're going to settle trade
in bitcoin would be the single best thing they could do right now it would be scary for them because it'd
be outside of their direct control but it would be the boldest and probably the move that would
prove to be the best that they could do yeah and they could keep it well you know i'll add it would
also be very scary for us i i personally if bricks came out tomorrow and said they're going to
transact in bitcoin i would have a a smile that would be immediate immediately be replaced by fear
because then you have the u.s in others uh in g7 etc nato as possibly like finding this is now the
reason this is how we attack bitcoin look it's the money of north korea or the money well they're
they're not but it's the money of china and russia and these evil bad boys and and terrorists and
you know weapons are having some interesting conversations i think i'd be scared of that
but it will happen i mean it's like it just makes just like what i said earlier satoshi didn't want
wikileaks because he didn't want bitcoin to be associated with fighting against you know government
or visa but it ended up working out you know well so i think maybe we're at a place now where if the
bricks adopted it yeah it'd be a little scary there'd definitely be politicians that would vilify us
uh but i think that it's probably too late for that to matter i hope along the same lines of the frog
in the boiling water analogy that you used for how bitcoin came into being in the first place i'll give
you another boiling water analogy which is so el salvador is you know basically a declared bitcoin as
legal tender which aside from other things means that they can trade in it now if el salvador
starts to settle with you know let's say argentina because argentina is another south american
country that trades with el salvador argentina's got a very very militantly pro bitcoin candidate
at the moment that looks like he's going to win so let's say he does win and you've got you know
militantly pro bitcoin candidate in el salvador same in argentina and they decide that they're going to
do bilateral trade in bitcoin the rest of the world will be watching that and if that goes well for
those countries and proves to be like you know this is a reasonable thing to do we can execute this
reasonably this is a great way to transact other small countries will start to do that and at a
certain point it'll just make sense for some larger countries to do that if they want to buy raw materials
and commodities from those other countries and then you end up with this trickle effect where if you've
got a trailblazing country like um like uh burkele's el salvador and you've got other south american
countries in the same region that start to do the same thing you could end up with this like cascade
effect over time which is quite interesting well especially because each one that adopts like the
cool thing about bitcoin is unlike the dollar where if a country and by the way i sound and i know i might
sound oddly like like i hate america or something and then i also say i love it it's weird and contradictory
but i think that is actually the most american thing to be is to question our government that's you know
when when our people or actually we were your people jack uh at one point but we didn't like
what the king was telling us we said go fuck yourself and we moved to a whole nother continent
where people were dying of you know malaria and things uh and and dysentery dysentery uh you know
um and so that's what america is about is if you disagree with parts of your government that's the
beauty of it you have the right and not not only the right but the duty to say something when you
when you disagree and still love your country i and you know so yeah i think it's going to happen
and i think oh and the what i was going to say going off your point is that not yeah this cascading
event is like when one country adopts it guess what price go up now the next country goes wait if i
adopt it just wait price goes up again okay cool price goes up if oh if i adopt it price goes up it's
like tesla it was a self-fulfilling prophecy tesla bought bitcoin and then told everyone it's called you
know they say go long and then get loud is you buy the you start buying the asset and then you tell
the public and then they buy the asset and it's this self-fulfilling prophecy every country that
adopts bitcoin will strengthen bitcoin and it'll get go up and then the early countries then people
start rushing in because they're like oh crap i don't want to be the last one i don't want to buy
it last so then they start adopting a hey we're going to put one percent of our treasuries in bitcoin
which is actually uh robert f kennedy said he wanted to have he wanted to start with making the
u.s dollar one percent back by hard assets like gold and bitcoin that would be unbelievable he literally
said this yeah and he's the leading democratic candidate behind biden right now i think if he
tries to do that the likelihood of him being assassinated is almost a hundred percent
i don't think i think the deep state yeah yeah that would be wasn't he denied and wasn't he didn't
like the crazy thing his dad or his uncle was assassinated you know gfk was assassinated his dad
was assassinated while he was running for president and now he's running for president and going against
the establishment similar to they did and he asked for like presidential candidates can ask for a
uh protection from the the secret service uh like uh you know to follow them and make sure they're okay
and he asked for protection and basically said look my dad and uncle were assassinated everybody knows
about this uh i need protection here and i think it was but didn't well i think it was biden denied his
request which i think i don't think that's normal i think normally if a candidate requests you're there
it's a respect thing you honor that and you give them protection and he denied it imagine if he actually
gets assassinated what happened huh imagine if he actually gets uh an attempt on his life and uh
he can brandish this thing uh well he'd be a martyr he'd be a martyr and it would help look i'm kind of
supportive of any of these candidates who are willing like left or right i'm supportive of candidates
who are willing to speak out against the corruption in our government because our government's gotten
too big it's gotten too corrupt there's too much pay for play and i'm a big fan of anyone who is
going to call out the bullshit and help to fix the bullshit you know though full well like if he if he
was to get you know shot tomorrow or something the the new york post would run an article in the in
the washington post would run articles like you know how rfk was a troubled soul and he struggled with
the legacy of his of his granddad and then he decided to take his own life like you can just
see it man like and people would just go oh that was crazy and then move on and vote for biden again
probably people would probably forget about it within a couple weeks it's sad yeah yeah we still
don't we still don't know all the people that epstein i don't want to be a conspiracy guy here but
we still don't know all the story of epstein how does no one getting charged with anything the guy
how can you well the funniest thing was he was getting charged with uh uh like trafficking people
to no one like that's the funniest bit is like who is you trafficking trafficking involves moving
people like where were they going it's just yeah anyway who is he getting these young girls to sleep
with that's a whole that's a whole other podcast probably it would probably go for another hour on
but yeah like in relation to this stuff i just think one thing that would be really interesting
to see is if we we are at the cusp of some kind of like you know cryptocurrency adoption wave like
the nation-state adoption wave you know how crazy will el salvador's story be in like 50 years
if if bekele manages to take it from the murder capital of the world to probably one of the wealthiest
countries gdp per capita on the planet if he if he you know they're doing this whole thing where
they're mining bitcoin with a volcano with geothermal energy and all these you know selling bitcoin bonds
i told you guys the individual bitcoin would take part of the bond market and it's already happening
and even the individuals because he's been such a trailblazer and individuals are transacting
if we go into another bull run those individuals just their general current accounts will become
more valuable because if they're onboarded half the country over half the country has bitcoin
wallets because he gave what a guy he gave this is like how i go around and give like taxi drivers
and waiters and hairdressers and everyone i just give them bitcoin donations and hope they hold it
this guy did it he did it to a whole country he gave 30 to every person in el salvador that would
download a bitcoin wallet he gave him 30 bucks and i think they which is a lot of money for those
people actually i think i think i don't know how they were able to do this if like gas is like
nationalized there or something but somehow they were able to do some deal or something where if you
bought gasoline with bitcoin you got like a small discount too that's amazing that that's the type of
thing that we need to see more of like that uh incentivization for daily activity is he orange
killed an entire country and you know the crazy thing you mentioned before that the crime thing the the uh you
know like cessation in crime in cessation of murders in el salvador it wasn't related to bitcoin but i'll
i'll go out on a limb here and say that it the the initial crackdown was something that he engineered
it wasn't at all to do with bitcoin but i think i suspect that the continuation in you know like the the
like positive trend in the crime rate probably is because the thing is like you know a lot of we hear
this in this industry a lot which is if you fix the money you fix a lot of the problems in society
and if you're in a fiat system and your savings occur you know and your labor is constantly being
devalued and you're in a system that you don't understand like most people don't understand
what inflation is or why it happens or why it's inevitable or why we go through these periods of
large inflation during the pandemic they just want to you know spend their like thousand dollar
stimulus check um meanwhile you know two trillion dollars or whatever goes out the back door
and then they all get poorer because their mortgage rate goes up and everything else over
the next few years it's like um when you when you take people out of that situation where they're
continually getting poorer they're less likely to commit crime in the first place and turn to crime
because if they're in a stable financial system where the currency is stable and its inflation schedule
is known a hundred years in advance they know that they can do things like plan and save and build
businesses without it being rug pulled by the state whenever there's a disaster because the
state or a war because the state needs access to funds um and you know this is like a just a
fundamental mind shift that people need to go through it's like you know inflation is a really it's a
hidden tax and people don't understand it but like all the taxes that people pay in the modern economy
and then you know the money that you finally managed to squirrel away at the end of all your expenses
and the end of all your hard work and the tax that you've paid then slowly gets taxed away and to be
honest evil tax i mean i don't i don't agree with you know our tax system the way it's become uh you
know in general but i am much more approving of a transparent tax and not a tax that tricks people
that don't understand inflation and like you know how many people the people at the bottom are the
people who understand it the least and those the people hurt by it the most yeah because they don't
understand how to hedge against inflation they don't understand to buy scarce assets you know
like including stocks uh including gold including bitcoin they don't understand this they just hold
their dollars because they are trying to be safe even the ones that are trying to be responsible
they may be poor but you know maybe their their parents taught them right and said hey remember
you got to put some money away from your your job uh and they're saving in cash and they think
they're doing the right thing and they think they're being responsible but little do they know
they're being hurt the most by inflation yeah my my parents had a company my parents had a company
for for uh almost 40 years an electrical contracting company and they did good work and they worked very
hard i've never seen anyone like i say my mom is the hardest working person i've ever met harder
working than me and i work a lot um and my dad too uh out in the field and managing guys worked so hard
and they lost their business due to covid and inflation uh covid shutdowns and then and all
this inflation stuff and supply chain shutdowns after 40 years they lost their business that's
it's just terrible and what like how why are businesses that are stable and good businesses for
40 years going under and not just my parents this happened to lots of people in the united states and
around the world going under because the government decides you know we're going to shut you down or
we're going to print lots of money to fund the shutdown and like now nobody knows what's
happening everybody's scared to spend money or skilled scared to build businesses scared to invest
because they don't know what jerome powell is going to say at the next meeting that why is our commerce
being controlled by jerome powell's interest rate changes why are they why is jerome powell's met part of
his dual mandate to manage like employment and right now his goal is to increase unemployment and
he said that very clearly surprise the thing you don't say out loud he said very clearly we are going
to try to we need to increase unemployment we need people to lose jobs and get fired to cool to cool
down our our inflation which by the way didn't come from our spending don't don't look over here
and the thing people don't talk about with that is unemployment and mortality early mortality is really
highly linked so there's like basically there's there's some statistic that i can't remember now which
is that for every percentage point uh unemployment goes up um all cause mortality goes up as well or certain
like factors are affected there and there's like you know what he's really saying there is like you know
people are going to have a harder time and some of those people die or have a heart attack because
they're stressed out or they might commit suicide or whatever right this this is the thing with
inflation like that people don't understand it's like it's people people most people who aren't
financial people they're not interested in like you know like the intricacies of the global banking
system most people just want stability they just want an environment that's predictable so that they
can try and build a business and try and save for retirement and try and put the kids through college
and university um they don't want this crazy undulating system that's based on like oh we're
gonna we need to we need to borrow more money here and then we need to you know like rein in the
borrowing because we borrowed too much money so now the interest rate is going to go up and now you how
the the loan you took out on your house is three times more expensive so now you've got to lose your
home because we think about this right this is uh in the uk a lot of people have um variable rate
mortgages it's not the same in the u.s a lot a lot of people in the u.s are like 30 year fix but in the uk
most a lot of people have variables here too it's i know that you've explained that it is a bit
different there but a lot of people do i mean one of my buddies just told me uh that his house now
luckily i well i don't know if it's luckily but it's a rental house and he's well off but his rent
went up by i think he said like 2700 i forget the number but his rent went up because the adjustable
ended he had a seven-year adjustable arm and then at the end of the seven years it happened to be during
this big crazy interest rate hikes and now he's paying you know he's losing massive money on that
it's a rental so he might have to give up the house he's saying or sell it or something so
really crazy so this is this is the thing right where because we borrowed because we we had some
let's be frank policy errors during the pandemic to put it very very mildly um and we we spent too
much money and now we've entered into a global conflict essentially where there's just an endless
amount of money being spent because of those things uh inflation has run too hot and now they're
racking up the interest rates on borrowing so anybody with variable rate mortgages is getting
crucified right now like think about this one i i know somebody that's coming to the end of their
fixed rate term and the interest rate uh sorry that the payment the actual net payment at the end of
everything is increasing by 40 percent in the next two months like by by the end of the two months when
that fixed term ends their next payment will be 40 percent higher and so when people some people
can't survive that no they literally can't so this person you know is saying that they're basically
going to be paycheck to paycheck when that happens and they're you know they don't know whether to
refix at a higher rate but then it won't get any worse and just like suck it and you know like be
paycheck to paycheck for three years while the fixed rate ends and then they can find out what's
going on the other side or whether they should wait but the point is this is real financial hardship
for normal people that's resulted from the fact that you know we made some pretty egregious
financial errors over the last few years like with the with the pandemic and stuff and this is the
example this is and brexit yeah brexit really really that that didn't help uh at all in this
whole situation but this this whole the whole point of this conversation that's kind of been a bit
meandering into traditional markets is that this is this is not a stable environment for people to
build homes and lives and businesses and stuff what we need is a monetary system that doesn't
change where the interest rate is known in advance it's fixed basically out into the future so you
can plan long term so you can have savings and that's okay you know that nobody's going to come
along and infinitely mint your currency and deflate it because this is all this stuff we've been going
through over the last few years is nothing compared to an actual hyperinflation which might also be
coming in the future like this is this is just mild stuff and it's you know really really tough
even just as it is so as we go into the next like decade or decades i think people need to take a long
hard look at bitcoin and say okay we've got a system here that isn't perfect but it guarantees out into
the future monetary policy and that's the best thing about it it's not it doesn't change it's just
predictable uh it works as intended it has worked as intended for the last decade loads of people
have tried to attack it it's failed loads of people have tried to change it that failed all the old
forks died and so you've got a system that's just really like bitcoin is the bedrock of what should be
the bedrock of the financial system and then everything else you know ethereum smart contracts and
different chains for all different utilities those can then be built on top of it and traditional
financial instruments like bonds and stocks can all trade on that layer but the foundational layer
shouldn't be what jerome powell decides to do in the morning when he gets up on on you know that when
it's the fomc meeting or even worse like i heard someone make a joke once it's like that our entire
economy hinges on like what color tie did jerome powell wear that day and like what is what is the like
nuance like does he look nervous does he like is he gonna like you know they're trying to read his
body language to to decide if they should invest in a business what does trump how about pal have to do
with me investing in a business or hiring or firing employees but this is the clown the problem that
this is because we're we're in this situation where uh the market jumps from a to z in a heartbeat
because of high frequency trading so like the market extrapolates all the information it can out of every
situation even the color of jerome powell's tie or the way he's leaning or what the way his voice sounds
or whatever you know there's algos and bots that extrapolate all that information out and they trade on
it instantly faster than you can even see what jerome powell's doing and so the entire market your
life savings basically is riding on how this guy leans on the podium or whatever and that's just it's a
shame because or or how gary gensler feels about you know our assets like yeah and it makes a mockery of
the real u.s economy and not just the u.s economy because the u.s is a global reserve currency so it
makes them want everybody that's out there trying to start a business you know that has like a hair
salon or uh you know a machine repair shop or these just normal boring businesses that don't care
about the fomc it makes a mockery of all those people because suddenly the guy who's you know took
out a loan to expand his auto shop business is now paying three times as much because jerome powell
leaned on the podium a certain way or he did something else it's like it's it makes a mockery of the hard
work of normal people and really what we need to do is just be sensible about this and say you know
monetary policy shouldn't be changing every three months on a on a whim it should be stable should
be fixed out into the future that's my opinion anyway monetary policy which is changing because
of the inflation that they created by themselves by the way
peter shift so like obviously peter shift gets mixed mixed reviews in this industry for sure but one
thing you said which i really liked was that the fed uh the fed creates the problem and then like a
really bad doctor the fed's cure kills the patient
well at least the problem's gone
hey guys i gotta run for a call i i can stay a little bit longer but do we want to
we just hijacked the entire dose chain space to talk about like global macro and currency and
philosophy and history of bitcoin all this crazy stuff uh i know we had a lot of stuff we wanted
to talk about do we want to push some topics to next week and then to just talk about the most
important relevant ones or ivan what do you think i know you got an agenda here well most of the agenda
was was around etfs by the way and uh and global macro because that's what's uh what's really
making the market tick at this point but uh i wanted to know a little bit about more about
shibarium what's happening there we had earlier we had unfortunately proto doge as well but he he dropped
off wanted to talk about meme coins but let's try to get him him oh i didn't see him yeah he was he
he was uh he was briefly uh on the on the spaces but uh next time maybe let's let's uh what do you
want to talk about meme coins yeah i know i know have he has been uh heavily investing in different
ones and uh searching communities uh reaching out to to uh to different communities and uh i wanted
to segue that into the i would i would dm him or meme economy yeah i would text him right now but i think
it's better that instead of rushing it let's just have him on next week because he's uh he's definitely
like got the down low on the meme coins these days yeah of course of course so let's do that next time
but uh i i see i don't know if penny uh bags uh can talk i'm going to invite him to speak i i guess he's
the one that's uh the more the most uh in the know about shibarium and what's happening there
about their soft relaunch that they did i know that their bridge is still uh uh problematic with
the all the all of that eth that's uh locked in there but um other than that i think that
the chain is functional as far as i know but i'm not very too too much informed about what's happening
there hopefully they're they are uh they have uh you know solved their issues now and uh trying to get
the penny here if he has some insights on this but uh otherwise yeah uh we can otherwise pretty much
call it a day if if we can so that we can gather with uh with new thoughts about the meme economy on
those chain and uh beyond in the next phases and talk about that as well
you cut out for me for a bit um is anyone talking or am i rugged yeah i'm here uh i'm getting i'm
trying to get also dodge track uh jim from uh dodge track and uh poo doge up but i'm having some
technical issues i think with uh since uh earlier if anyone in the audience wants to comment on this
stuff while he's doing that by the way uh go ahead and request if you guys want to come up say hi uh
we we haven't done the shitcoin showdown in a while if anyone should be uh usually has good insights on
on macro as well but i'm not sure he's able to speak now i don't know what their their uh yeah i could
stay on for maybe like five to ten more minutes and then i i do got to get to some calls um i don't
know why people schedule i tell people like i'm on the space and then they schedule like right for
you know when the spaces should end but i i always tell them like these things often go over
do we have that call with um that one with sandy by the way uh let me check my i'll check i'll dm you
about it just because it's it i'm pretty sure it was meant to be three minutes ago anyway ivan sorry
carry on yeah we have uh jim from doge track i i guess here uh managed to get him on the speakers
hey jim hey what's up guys yeah so yo so uh yeah we launched uh decks on shibarium and we actually
support um doge trek as the doge chain side of it so we wanted to bring some users over from
shibarium and and vice versa to doge chain so we've been kind of using it to um expose people
who are into shibarium to also uh doge chain so doge trek still exists um on its own yeah you
you gotta like you gotta you gotta sneak over there and pull them into the doge yeah exactly
tell them they're on the dark side no i'm just kidding to be honest i i i really appreciate these
uh these bridgings between these two chains but i'm not 100 sure how effective they will be because
ship people don't uh are not always supportive of doge uh unfortunately bro this is the that's and
vice versa vocal minority though man that's the same thing as some of the bitcoin maxis
that say and it makes everyone think yeah yeah you might you might be right there yeah it makes
everyone think bitcoiners hate web 3 it's not true like you know we discussed this on the last
spaces like there's plenty of bitcoiners who love ethereum and and all of defi and there's plenty
of bitcoiners who love doge even though the maxis of course will shit on it and the doge maxis will
shit on other things and they'll shit on shib and everybody's shitting on each other
but uh there's plenty of overlap there's very rarely i don't know i would guess less than
three percent of the industry like only holds one coin and thinks everything else sucks that's like
it's not it's just the vocal minority really i think yeah i think i think so too you you may be
right there especially that uh the people that are actually actively supporting their uh their network
uh they're not going to start uh shilling uh other coins uh and uh other networks like
especially shib and doge where uh you know she was supposed to be the doge killer which never
happened by the way and it never will because it's so inherently different from one another that
both need to coexist and uh and uh together
dog meme communities like jesus christ we're not we're it's not like
you know it was skin color for hundreds of years and now it's which dog coin are you you know like
come on guys like lighten up a bit uh like isn't there an old disney movie all dogs go to heaven
oh yeah right haven't haven't seen that for a while and all sheeps are together i mean we all love
dogs we're all into evm chains we can all get along yeah that's my stance i don't know some doge
maxis might hate me for saying that i i don't hold any shib uh but you know whatever more power to
them we can all be friends and and it's one of those things where i like i'm not worried that you
know even though you know doge chain is uh you know has a much longer track record and like some
people are worried well what if they take some of our users and oh well so like we'll take some of
theirs or we'll share you know well in this industry like that i think sharing is is caring and uh
i think like the more we all work together like i said earlier we've got bigger enemies out there
than than our local dog coins like come on guys what are we doing here like it's crazy to me to
see someone from the doge community attacking someone from the shib community like they're
they're like the devil but like they're just another dog coin it's just a fun community can't
like just have fun like that's the whole point of this thing loosen the fuck up excuse my language
if there's any children listening i don't think so we should be putting on the spaces before
that's true that's true uh but yeah i mean if you look at doge's website and their whole
you know spiel and also ryoshi's vision for shiba inu they're both basically aligned in a lot of
different ways you know do do only good stuff like that ryoshi's vision they want it to be for
you know charity and just you know contributing to that core ethos so i feel like both both dog
meme coins are aligned in many ways i mean there's some differences but like nothing that we should be
like fighting each other over i mean doge was definitely a more fair launch and uh it was more
is more decentralized the node infrastructure and things make it very decentralized uh it's got a
larger community for sure i'm definitely gonna if i had to i'm gonna side with those i'm not gonna
fight people over it but um uh you know the one thing i don't know about shiba enough is like how
distributed the tokens actually are because it's you know because people are anonymous even though
some have been doxxed recently maybe our fault uh but uh some chat logs from our chat but i mean
the sheep community i mean i don't know how much of the supply was held by like founders or by the
community and what we do know about doge is it was launched fair launch right so there there was no uh
like pre-mine uh so that is a big win for doge and why you know doge is much more decentralized
uh also doge has its own proof of work chain and and there's a lot of things that i like about
doge much more than sheep don't get me wrong i'm just saying let's not attack each other we don't
need to do that doge doge wins though if if you want to fight just kidding
rough rough yeah guys all right then uh we can we can call it a day it's not like it's been a
short one or anything like that we've been like uh around for two hours and some uh so uh yeah let's
uh let's move those topics that we talked about on to next week and uh uh let's have a meme economy
uh and uh maybe some some talk about again about the socials uh like uh friend tech it's as well
uh andrew has uh a lot of uh insight upon that and we we did a uh a huge discussion on that a couple
of spaces ago but uh it it seems to be picking up again and i'm seeing a lot of uh influencers on
twitter trying to uh push uh like uh if you buy mine i'll buy yours stuff like that it's uh it's pretty
interesting to uh to see but uh yeah let's move that to to next week and um call this a day thank
you everybody for participating and uh and listening in uh on our you know macro rants and uh but i think
we everybody learned something new today uh i did i know and uh thanks everybody for uh for uh for
tuning in again and being so numerous every week it's uh it's awesome
yep looking forward to another year of dose chain spaces
yeah another great year and and and uh
uh jerome powell gary gensler god whoever if you're listening uh give us our bull run please
give us our we've been we've been good boys give us our bull run soon or come on and make your case
as to why we shouldn't have one yeah
join the real doges
also uh follow uh everybody that is uh listening and isn't following any of our speakers today please
do um just a little housekeeping thing but it's great to keep these accounts growing if you like
what you heard today share the space and comment because it'll be it's recorded every week so
anybody that wants to kind of like you know go back and listen or you want to share it with
friends and family please do so it's great it keeps us keeps us going and feeling like
people care yeah let's shout out the community too uh we got quick swap in the audience we've got
uh uh dave crypto or at dave cosmonaut we've got penny bags loyal shib here uh we've got
uh dose chain report we've got kermit the dose chain guy we've got sphere king with his rdp we got
the crypto canuck our our friend from the north uh from our neighbor from the north i see tons of
uh amazing uh nft profile pictures as well i love it so anybody that's repping an nft whether it's on
dose chain or anywhere else congratulations we've got a lot of hearts hearts in the audience appreciate
it guys uh hearts to all the community we got eden.dog which is dce dc eden market what is that
anybody know it's a new nft marketplace they launched pretty recently oh cool
sweet uh welcome to the ecosystem um we've got shibby who's got like one of the best uh rdps
uh it's like edited with some colors but it's like the i don't know what it is it's like is that the
shibby can you comment what is that like represent because to me it's like is this like a trader
that hasn't slept or is this like someone who's like having a like smoking a cigarette and stress
out about the bear market what is that bro what inspired you if you want to comment we've got ice
cold candy uh we've got hark or shark with a emoji thing we've got black cdc i'm following most of
these uh we've got cio we've got lauren's man it's crazy you guys like most of the people i'm naming
have been here for a year of spaces like wow true true oh geez pass on the back uh shout outs to all
you guys guys uh we've got b the beautiful b we've got uh richie guru we've got dev omega we've got
the dose chain chimps uh we've got martoshi we've got pepe dose chain is that is that fuck pepe what is
that pep what's pepe dose what's that about comment if you hear us and so we can know what that is or if
anyone knows on stage we've got extra stress trails crypto gems uh following you bilbo t baggins
uh we've got coin collector baby yoda super shout out to baby yoda you're you're the best of the whole
audience uh we got sexy sagittarius mr moon with a question mark haven't seen you before i'll give
i'll give you a follow uh we've got ian brahman uh we got base chain call we got wesner
following me i'll follow you back wesner um we got crypto astronaut with an rdp love it we got uh
chewy swap let's see what is this the first multi doggo decks on shibarium and we'll support shib
and doge chain oh nice see look at the love between shibarium and doge chain that's me i forgot
to mention the name it's chewy swap yeah that's on the doge chain side it connects to doge shrek
pairs so any token that's launched on doge shrek when you connect doge chain on there that's uh what
you'll be trading on all right cool man it's fully audited and say you know i was gonna ask are you
audited are you doxed or right uh anonymous or yes i'm doxed okay cool um do your own research of
course guys none of these are endorsements we're we're just here learning together but uh we've got
crypto astronaut we've got winnie crypto that's a different winnie than the one we know i'm assuming
um we got asap benji uh follows me i'll follow you back bitcoin equals freedom definitely and
doge chain family and you're in your thing you're also a cult uh dao we had them on the polygon spaces
recently we had the the leader of cult dao on the spaces actually huge community we got tipsy following
me following you back uh jared agamemnon now we got a1 crypto following me i've seen you before i'm
pretty sure here entrepreneur bro you copied my bio are you a scammer he says he says crypto
enthusiast libertarian elon fanboy bitcoin doge chain will zap the world are you right or i'll take it
is i'll tell you i'll just go with inspiration but that sounds like my bio man all right guys uh here
let's give some more shout outs i really we really appreciate the community guys baby xdc is doing
laughy faces uh follows me i'll follow you back what's baby xdc does anyone know
nope we got omnom uh one of the oldest uh what omnom doge eat doge uh v2 it says omnom x official
is that different than the original omnom but omnom was one of the first coins on uh on uh doge chain
had like crazy traction early on um not haven't followed as much lately but yeah been around a
while so apparently omnom are are relaunching not relaunching but uh restarting their uh their stuff
uh i saw something in the in the founders hub and uh yeah we'll uh we'll get them on on on the next
spaces hopefully so they can explain what's happening there hopefully we'll get them back they were like
the original mean coin that was released on uh on doge chain so uh hey let let's do something fun
real quick to see if the audience is uh listening and get some interaction okay if you think the market
is going to go up by the end of the year do a thumbs up and if you think the market's going to go down by
the end of the year do a do a thumbs down
bro no what people who are doing tons of emojis are not now doing emojis do you have no opinions
okay penny bag says up base chain call says up guys this is up lauren says up crypto canucks is down
uh b says up crypto astronaut says up richie guru down extraterrestrial uh says up bill bookie baggins
up sexy sagittarius up mr moon up sleek just did a like what is that does that mean it's gonna stay
steady uh that like uh i don't i think that means he thinks it'll just stay steady maybe tipsy says up
uh baby dc okay so we got a lot of bulls in this audience apparently uh
what's that oh we've made this bit i just let him be know that i've authorized us to speak when when
you get a minute hey i just wanted to say that um that's not om nom coming back that's just kind
of like a fan project that was posted in the founders group oh interesting an om nom fan project okay
that's kind of what i'm calling it but yeah do your research look into it
yeah well always guys do your research on these things like um when we talk about these things
even if like we say hey welcome to the ecosystem or whatever that doesn't mean we're like saying
hey this thing's safe go put your money in it you know you have to do your own research it this is
something about crypto that's different than the traditional world where in the traditional world
you know gary gensler and everyone are supposed to protect us and coddle us and and make us not
like you know capable of protecting ourselves anymore and dependent on them in crypto it is wild west and
you do and there aren't as many protections and you're your own you know man or woman and you need
to you need to do your research and you know learn all of the the tricks and scams out there because
there's a lot of them unfortunately it's sad but when you make a total free market with less
regulation you are gonna get you're gonna need a lot more good
can you guys hear me
hello hello yeah okay cool we lost you for a second yeah someone was calling me okay i gotta get running
but um yeah great great talking to everyone and thanks for that b and uh yes see y'all soon hopefully
you guys are right i i think i don't know but i still think we go up before the end of the year i i
that's what i think uh i could be wrong jack had a very bullish call that he says new all-time high
by the end of the year are you sticking to that jack are you are you gonna wishy-wash yet or what
it's not looking as good no no i'm not i'm not a wishy-washy guy if i was wrong i'll own it but i'm
sticking with it because i don't change my mind it's gonna happen or it's it's not gonna happen but
we'll see i guess we'll be called that that will we'll discuss that on episode i guess it'll be
like episode 60 something right which is you know like we've got a few months left so uh see you on
episode 60 something where i either get made a fool of we're gonna check in on that every week now
i i'm giving also i'll stand with you a little bit i don't know about all-time high but i will say
i think we're higher by the end of the year than we are now and i would give that a
65 uh okay 70 i'll give that a 70 chance that we're higher at the end of the year than we are
now now i'm not talking about dc for you regulators out there i'm just talking about the market bit
bitcoin and stuff guys don't leave us alone don't don't hurt us please um okay guys have a good one
have a great weekend i hope you guys walked on this i hope you have a great weekend with your
friends family yourself in your in your home if you're a hermit like many of us crypto people are
uh have a great weekend have a great one guys thank you very much see you later bye
