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CaviarNine Progress Update, DeFiPlaza & Astrolescent Deep Dive
Recorded: Sept. 15, 2023 Duration: 1:15:51Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello everyone, we're just going to wait a few minutes to let a few more people come
through, but I've sent the invites to Timon and Caviar, so just accept I'm ready.
Oh, we've got Chris too.
I'll send you an invite co-host.
In fact, no, I've sent, yeah, yeah, there we go.
And Chris is also going to be joining us.
I'm going to invite him to speak.
Okay.
Okay.
If you can share the spaces within all of the different channels that you're in, that
would be really helpful as well, guys.
I think Caviar, you're there.
Hello.
Hello.
It's Tron here.
Hello, Tron.
How's it going?
Yeah, it's going very well.
Thanks very much.
Let me just share this one second.
Hi, guys.
Hello.
Jacob and Christoph, I've sent you an invite as well to chat.
Oh, Jacob.
Hello.
How are you doing?
Oh, hello.
I say that as if I've not literally just spoken to you.
Hello, Condor.
Caviar team going back to back today.
Yeah.
I was listening to the spaces before.
I nearly lost my voice.
You weren't, Condor.
You weren't.
Were you in that one, Condor?
Yeah.
What are you talking about?
We're everywhere.
We wanted to see all the excellent questions so we could rehash them here and make you answer
the exact same thing again.
Yeah.
My first question is, are you going to start your own blockchain?
You know?
Honest to God, honestly, we have talked about it so many times and we've all just come to
the conclusion it's an utterly ridiculous thing to try to do.
I mean, at this point, at this point, there was probably already quite some time to do so,
but yeah, you chose to build instead on our plane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, maybe we'll just hard fork it and do it at 55 TPS.
Was it you, Chris, or was it one of those crypto devs that did say he did find it in the GitHub
where it was hard-coded in it, like, you know, keep up at 50.
Can we please not start this, please?
I don't want to deal with this.
You know that this call is recorded, right?
You're aware.
Already.
Okay.
I was only joking.
Awesome, guys.
And we would never build a blockchain.
We would build a new ledger.
So don't worry about it.
Oh, perfect.
See you guys in 10 years.
Yeah, right.
We'll jump in then.
If everyone can share as much as possible, that would be really helpful.
But we'll just start.
So it's obviously been a while since you last spoke to you, mainly because we want to leave you cooking.
And you've certainly been busy in that kitchen.
So in the lead up to Babylon, it's obviously a really busy time.
The Radix and wider crypto ecosystem is growing rapidly with new projects popping up all the time.
So as a token holder, it can be hard to keep track, even just for the Radix ecosystem this close to Babylon.
And you recently unveiled your new aggregator, which will be going live.
You also say it's going to be a game changer.
Can you explain a little bit more about the aggregator and what makes it unique from others in the space?
Chris, do you want to jump in or let me start?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Sure, I'll talk about it.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I guess I'll just kind of frame it in the context of what we're building, actually, because, you know, you're probably going to ask us about everything that we're building as well.
But basically, we're building a whole DeFi ecosystem.
There's going to, on caveat nine, there's going to be a sort of a whole range of ways in which people can provide liquidity in our ecosystem.
But what we want is we want a very focused, intuitive and easy way for people to trade.
And so that's the focal point for trading.
And, you know, the front end is essentially our aggregator.
And, you know, our aggregator will access all of our liquidity pools.
And it will also access other liquidity pools, which are on Radex, as and when they appear.
And I think anyone that's used our prototype DeFi, DeFi, and aggregator DeFi in the past is aware that there's like two separate sites.
When we launch in a couple of weeks' time, there will just be one site.
There'll be one focus.
That's caveat9.com.
And your, you know, your trading experience will be fully out of the aggregator.
And I think, I guess, one of the things, you know, that the aggregator offers as well, which is that it will route liquidity to all vendors.
It won't just be DEXs.
It will be order books.
It will be any DApps, essentially, on Radex that allow swapping of any sort with any liquidity.
And it will be atomic, seamless, all in one place with a rate guarantee.
Yeah, and so you obviously mentioned liquidity pools.
And you're actually going to be bringing in something called the Caviar Liquidity Index.
And obviously, liquidity pools are really advanced DeFi, to a sense.
And there's also these common risks, such as, like, impairment loss and exploits and whatever.
So how does the Liquidity Index deviate from that standard liquidity pool?
Like, how does it offer a safer, a better experience for liquidity providers?
So I think you're, so our, one of our products, the Index Pools, I think is the one you're referring to, right, Connor?
Yeah, that one.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So the Index Pools, I mean, realistically, they're pools that can be two tokens or probably up to nine tokens.
And each pool can, once they're created, they're set in stone and, you know, they can have, they can have different weights, you know, so that you can, you can have, you know, 50% this and 10% all the others.
And so, therefore, that pool then represents something.
And the cool thing about that is that, A, because it's wrapped up, it's safe.
If you know what you're getting into as a user, you can create your own liquidity pools in themselves.
And you can add, you know, one token or you can add multiple tokens or whatever.
And the fees are sort of proportional, depending on the sort of the risk that you've changed or the liquidity that you've changed in the Index.
But they're not that exciting.
The most exciting point about them is that they offer, first of all, it's multi-token pools, right?
So, that in itself is kind of fun because you've got more combinations of crossing things.
And also, if you're interested in a basket of, say, DEX tokens, then, you know, you kind of don't care that you are being swapped between different DEX tokens because, ultimately, you're a trader and you're interested in DEX tokens.
But the really cool thing about these things is that, of course, you get back a liquidity token.
So, you invest or you invest, you put your tokens into an Index pool that represents perhaps maybe all the aggregators or something.
Or perhaps it represents all the pairwise, some pairwise pool tokens.
Or perhaps it represents a basket of different types of stable coins.
Who knows?
But the cool thing, then you get back your Liquidity token and then you can trade that Liquidity token in itself.
So, these Index pools are beautiful because you've then built yourself Liquidity LP tokens that come from them that then represent stuff, that self, that represents something in themselves.
And, of course, that they self-balance themselves through arbitrage and the whole lot.
How do we protect the liquidity providers?
Well, we have one thing we have in all of our liquid, all our LP tools or whatever, is that the fees are dynamic in a sense.
So, as things become more volatile, the fees go up.
So, the swappers pay more and the liquidity providers earn more.
And as things become less volatile or you've got less volatile tokens, for example, something like stable coins, then the fees are very low, but the volume is very high and the risks are particularly low.
If I can, can I jump in, can I add a little?
Sure, sure, sure.
I was just going to say, yeah, there's also, I think also you talked a bit about security as well, right?
So, you know, sort of an overarching thing that we have in our ecosystem is there will also be, you know, we'll make it very clear what type of tokens there are in certain types of pools.
It'll be, you know, it'll be obvious if something's sort of recallable, for example, you know, there'll be, when you're trading through the aggregator, obviously you can have guaranteed minimums on things.
Oliver mentioned the dynamic fees.
There's also going to be a concept of white blackness.
If necessary, if it's an obvious rug token out there, then that can be excluded in the future.
And then I guess the other security thing as well, obviously we're building in crypto.
So hopefully, you know, it's designed for DeFi and our code's being audited as well.
So my question was regarding the fees and the dynamic fees, so to say.
Is this meant in a way to a little bit mitigate the risk of impermanent loss?
Well, yeah, I mean, that's what fees are for, right?
I mean, effectively, when it's just a transfer of sort of risk or the cost of risk from one type of user to another type of user,
the liquidity provider puts in tokens and he's going to get paid a, he's going to earn a yield or a fee for,
that's proportionate, that should be proportionate to how volatile his set of tokens are or the basket of tokens.
And the swapper should pay a fee that's correctly proportional to the volatility.
Now, in the old days, or perhaps not in the old days, not so long ago, you know,
DEX is just sort of hard-coded in their fee.
You know, oh, it's 30 basis points.
And that meant when volatility is really high, it was terrible to be a liquidity provider.
And when volatility was very low, it was great to be a liquidity provider,
but terrible to be a swapper because you were overpaying fees.
So realistically, it's about getting the right fee for the correct risk,
such that the swap guy pays the LP guy the right amount.
Yeah, and I think also the other thing is, as I'm sure you're going to ask us,
you know, is there's various different ways you can provide liquidity in the Calvary 9 ecosystem.
And so different liquidity provision methods have different sort of sensitivity to impermanent loss,
you know, so something which is like a nine-component basket of diversified tokens
and an index pool is going to generally have less volatility than a pair pool
where you've got like sort of a meme token as one of them.
So, I mean, there's lots of different choices as well.
So in a sense, impermanent loss is we have like all these things like dynamic fees,
which is one thing, but also you can reduce impermanent loss by actually having choice
on how you provide liquidity by using one of the different sort of flavors which we offer.
Yeah, and you also mentioned, obviously, you mentioned liquidity
and that's one of the areas, whilst I was researching,
that was one of the areas that interest me, I'm sure, well, with like others as well,
like the ability to shape your liquidity.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, like you get to put your capital into a specific zone
to maximize the fees that you receive.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's exactly right.
So what we have is we've basically got to, you kind of divide up the whole space of a pair,
a spot space of a pair into bins, and then you sort of decide how much you want to put in each bin.
And the cool thing about that is that you own certain amounts of it, of each bin,
and you can make any shape you like.
So, you know, if you've got a stable pair, two stable tokens, you know, one-to-one, let's say,
$C and $T, and they're trading incredibly close,
you don't want to put your liquidity spread all over the place.
You want to maximize it.
Now, if you've got a view on, if you've kind of got a view on, you know,
perhaps it's going to go a little bit further on the downside, a little bit on the upside,
you can express that quite easily by shaping how your liquidity is placed.
And the way that we've written the script allows us to put any shape anywhere, any time,
at a really low cost.
So we spent a long time trying to figure out how to optimize costs.
And so that sort of goes to a, that's where we spent a long time on our order book,
trying to make everything really, really, really cost-effective,
because we were a little bit scared of costs initially.
And that actually then sort of fell through into, into shape liquidity.
So, you know, fees are, even though Radix is incredibly cheap anyway,
we've really, really pushed the limit.
Sounds really good.
So then tell me, who of you guys is the not genius?
I don't think there's any geniuses here.
Certainly better than me.
I can barely do my three times table.
So, like, see with the shaping of liquidity, like, so as a user, do you just,
how does that work from, like, my point of view?
Would I just go onto the platform and you just see where provides the best return?
Or, like, does, like, a little indication and you provide liquidity to that?
Yeah, so, I mean, so you, you, you can have a look at the spots on the graph
and you can see where the, the recent prices have been, you know,
and say perhaps it's, it's all concentrated around three to one,
or let's say, you know, one of X means three of Y and that's the price.
It's all, it's all bumbling around the same area and it has been for weeks on end.
Now, there's no point in you putting a spread out.
You can then concentrate your liquidity however you like.
Now, on the site, we've got a nice little widget that allows you to, it's a bit,
it's a bit like Trader Joe's looks like, but we do, it's not.
But better.
But, yeah, but better, of course.
And, and you can kind of customize how you want to drag and move things around.
And, you know, you've got to bring kind of shapes that we want.
So, initially, we're just going to do some simple stuff,
but going forward, we've got the ability to basically create any shape that you like.
You know, imagine having a shape that was sort of,
that was reflective of what was happening in the past.
You know, that could be quite interesting.
Yeah, it was actually quite interesting.
It's something that I've not, I've not seen, like looked at before.
I'm a bit of a noob with that stuff, but it is really interesting
in order to like maximize the return that you get.
What, you've got so many features, like, well, not features,
but like products coming out.
Like I've been reading through the articles and things like that.
And it is really intriguing.
Like, so it would be good to know, like, what's your favorite,
what's the thing that you're most excited about releasing, like with Babylon?
Like, what are you looking forward to the most?
I'm personally most looking forward to PXRD.
Yeah, I'd agree.
Perpetual XRD, which we've just teased actually a few days ago,
which is actually the first caviar product.
But everything else that we've been talking about so far is part of Flupe ecosystem, right?
So the aggregator, the order book, index pools, and shape liquidity is all part of the Flupe ecosystem.
PXRD or Perpetual XRD is part of the caviar ecosystem.
And that's super interesting.
P could be pure XRD.
I think we'd like to describe it as it's like XRD, but better.
Again, short story.
No such thing.
Can you talk a little bit more about this?
Actually, I'll just say something.
Obviously, we've pushed out quite a few medium articles.
We will be tying it all together with something which sort of simply shows how everything plugs together.
It makes it look pretty intuitive and how the different choices of liquidity feed into the aggregator, etc.
So hopefully things will look very clear once we release that article.
And then once we sort of do some teasers of what the actual website and the interfaces will look like.
Another thing that I obviously picked up on is you had mentioned, and I think it was the article for order books, Caviar 9 order book article.
And you mentioned a hybrid approach between AMMs and order books.
Would you be able to dive a little bit deeper into that, just summarize what you mean by that?
Yeah, Chris, you should ask this one.
Thanks, great.
Well, actually, I suppose AMM is actually quite different from a order book.
I suppose if you want to – I'm not sure which angle you're actually asking me about in terms of the question.
The way in which we do hybrid liquidity is obviously through the aggregator, right?
We have lots of possible choices for liquidity, which could be – it could be from an index pool.
Or it could be from an order book where you want to have a very specific level at which you care about execution happening.
Or it could be like shape liquidity where you have a sort of a range or a sort of a shape over which you're happy to buy or sell something.
And then all of that just gets tied together through the aggregator.
I mean, one of the things that we did do is we talked about the differences in terms of the sort of order books and AMMs, right?
So they do differ in terms of like surety of fill, slippage, and impermanent loss.
And so with something like an order book, you're obviously extremely precise at the level at which execution is going to happen.
But there's no sort of guarantee that the order will get filled.
Whereas with an AMM, you've got surety of fill.
An execution does happen with respect to some sort of bounds that you put on the price.
And then it has sort of differences in terms of slippage, right?
So slippage tends to be lower in order books, whereas slippage could be larger in an AMM.
And there's different concepts of impermanent loss.
So without sort of taking up the entirety of this space by talking about them,
I would encourage people to go to Caviar9 medium page and have a look at the article on order books
where we kind of like talk through the sort of contrast order books versus AMMs.
I mean, for me, at the end of the day, you just can't not offer an order book.
If you want to be a serious trader, if you're a serious player in having a DEX offering trading tools to people,
I mean, from Tradify World where we come from, you've got to be able to leave an order.
How could you not have order books?
How could you not leave orders?
It makes no sense.
And Radix gives us easily the ability to be able to create such a DEX.
Order books are absolutely fundamental to any trader to be able to leave some order and then go to sleep.
Which mostly, most of the time, it's a bad thing that you've done.
Yeah.
I love being burned, mate.
I'm sure you've got to stop this one, guys.
Absolutely, right.
But I mean, AMMs are great, right?
They have this idea.
But that's not what an order book is.
An order book, for me, is finality.
I put something in and I'm offering it up here and I've got a bid down here and that's it.
And it's perfect.
It does the job.
Now, you can have more complicated order books and things like that.
And perhaps we can go down that route later.
But there's no point building, you know, breaking our backs, building everything with whistles and bells when you actually, the basic 99% of the time, people want to just be able to leave orders.
And as I was going about earlier, we really spent a long time making sure that leaving an order is cheap.
And as you leave more orders on Caviar 9, the price goes down.
Now, you can work that out, but it's pretty bizarre.
So the more orders that you place in the Caviar 9 order book, the cheaper it gets to place orders.
And our orders are currently, I think, on version 3.1 or around half an XRD, which is significantly lower than anybody else's I've seen.
Yeah, and like you can try and jimmy orders in into, say, Uniswap v3 model, you know, in like the limit of the liquidity range.
Or you could try and sort of squeeze, you know, a limit order into a super narrow shape liquidity range.
But the reality is, is because everything's all hooked up through the aggregator, you can just leave a proper precise limit order.
And so that's, that's exactly why we wrote that really, really sharp, efficient, low cost limit order book, rather than sort of a more expensive way of trying to jimmy it into a Uniswap v3 type offering.
And this brings me to the last few questions, like just in terms of the product previews anyway.
So obviously a big and exciting thing coming to Radix that a lot of people, yeah, they've been very excited for is the liquid staking unit.
And for those that don't know, could you walk us through the benefits of that on Radix and how that's implemented on Caviar?
Like, how does that work?
Sure, I'll start it off if you like.
So obviously Radix has got, you know, consensus is proof of stake.
There's 100 validators who participate in consensus.
When Babylon launches, the sort of the liquid staking concept will actually be native to Radix.
So when you stake your XRD on a validator, instead of the XRD just sitting there and you're earning emissions and that's it, you will actually get an LSU token coming back to you, which sort of shows your fractional ownership of the staking pool on that validator.
So what does that do?
Well, that actually allows you to do something whilst you're staking.
So you can be staking on a validator, you can be, you know, contributing to security of the network, but then you can also do something with those tokens.
And as each validator has their own token, that means that there's, you know, too many tokens.
I mean, there'll be more than 100.
Yeah, there'll be more than 100.
But let's just say that the 100, which are in consensus, instead of 100 tokens.
So, you know, maybe Oliver, I'll let you run through your example of outstaking and unstaking.
Yeah, right.
So, yeah, what do you do with those things, right?
You want them to be useful.
So let's find some use for these things.
So there's plenty of things that you can do with them.
But this one of the simplest thing is that you would like to be able to swap your validator token for another one.
So that means you've got to unstake, you have to wait the period of time, currently it's like 10 days or whatever, and then you get back your XRD, you then unstake again, and, you know, whatever.
This is just a cumbersome sort of loss, realistically, where if you have a kind of a pool of all the LSUs, let's say, you know, there's a big block of LSU tokens, and you can just say, well, I'll put mine in there, and I'll take another one out.
And then I've swapped my validator.
Now, nothing's actually happened to the network, and yet now I've got a different validator, which is what I wanted to do.
So that's great.
Why not?
So that is one of the main reasons for swapping, for facilitating swapping validator tokens.
Then the other one is, like, I'd like to instantly unstake.
There must be someone out there willing to give me, willing to make a price on the amount of XRD for me to unstake now.
Not in 10 days.
Now, please.
You know, there must be a price.
And, of course, there is a price.
It's dictated by the market.
So how do you then arrange it up?
So, you know, we've been banging our heads against the wall for, I don't know, six months, whatever, and it came to us about three months ago.
And then we're like, wow, that's it.
It's just so simple.
And it's amazing when you get it.
So we have the ability that the user can say, right, I'm going to jam my, here's my LSU token, and I'll take our XRD, please.
Thanks very much.
Now, there's a cost for that.
Of course, there's a fee, and that fee goes in for the liquidity providers and whatever.
But it allows you to instantly unstake.
So on caveat 9, you can instantly unstake your validator tokens for XRD.
And then the last one is, what do you do?
You know, I want to earn some money with my LSU token.
So in our LSU pool, you put in the tokens, and they get used from the things we've just said for swapping for other LSU tokens.
And I earn a fee for it.
As a small fee, of course, it's getting swapped around because it's not a lot of risk, as we were alluding to earlier about these things.
But I can earn an extra yield.
So now my 6% per annum yield from my staking now becomes, you know, 8%, 9%, 10%.
It becomes much more interesting.
And the way that we've designed it, actually, there's zero impermanent loss.
Now, get your head around it.
It's a bit of a mess up, but we'll explain it post-Babylon once we're live.
Yeah, that would definitely, I would really appreciate that.
This is crazy, isn't it?
I can barely do 2 plus 2.
I have also one question to you guys, which I'm privately interested in as well.
At the moment, when you look at centralized exchanges, they put a lot of effort towards copy trading.
And as far as I'm aware, currently, this is not really available in the deeper space in a decentralized format.
I think mostly because of the limitations of the current chains.
Do you see any way of implementing copy trading on your platform?
Or should I maybe explain what I mean by that?
Yeah, I know what you mean.
So you're sort of, you know, sort of essentially copying the actions of a particular trader following a certain amount of trade system.
Yes.
Yeah, so, I mean, that's not something that we're doing for Babylon.
There's a couple of ways you can do that where you can approach it.
And I think, you know, one way is to sort of, you can do it on-chain or you can do it off-chain.
You know, there's a way of doing it off-chain where you can kind of have an Oracle or whatever that interacts with a smart contract and drives these things.
There's all kinds of potential issues with that as, actually, as more TradFi moves into DeFi.
There's all kinds of issues around best execution and regs and all kinds of things which don't exist right now in the crypto space, but which really have to be considered in the future.
There's another way of doing things, which is something that we're building for the Caviar ecosystem, or we will be building for the Caviar ecosystem,
which is sort of investable indices, where you can kind of have fractional ownership of essentially a fund.
Anybody can set up a fund and they will be able to sort of trade various, on various smart contracts, various DEXs, et cetera, with various tokens.
And you essentially have fractional ownership of fund management or a hedge fund.
So that's something that we're looking to build in the Caviar ecosystem, which will be fully on-chain.
Does it sound interesting, gentlemen?
Yes.
Very interesting.
I can't wait until you guys finally launch everything and we can interact with the wallet.
So during the last couple of weeks, we've also been trying and playing around with the wallet on our end.
And it's really promising and really exciting.
Yeah, it's really good, actually.
We need to get Chris and Oliver on the Radix wallet, the animated NFTs, make you into some animated NFTs.
I don't know if you've seen them earlier on.
I think we've got one with Jacob twerking on a Tesla or something.
Yeah, we've been holding that one in the bank for a while to use it and it's the perfect time.
So we've only got a few more questions anyway, but it's just to let everyone know if you want to ask a question, get them ready and we'll bring you up here for a little Q&A with the guys.
So obviously, Babylon is like hot on our heels.
We've been feeling it, of course.
What comes next for Caviar post-Babylon?
And have you got any idea or plans of like, obviously, you've been working really hard up to this point to get this out.
And what's the post-Babylon plan?
I think I'll start with this one.
Post-Babylon plan will be to do spring cleaning and tidy up the ship a little bit.
So backtrack a bit, make sure we go over everything, tidy it all up, dot the I's, cross the T's.
It's, you know, it's a professional business.
You've got to make sure you don't leave anything unchecked.
So we'll go back and we'll do a review of things.
And so that's not the scripted code, obviously, because that's being audited.
So, you know, you can't, that's not in-house.
But, you know, other things, other centralized things and websites and, you know, agreements you have with people and places and stuff.
And then I think, I think, I think then, I think then we might have a look at going for a funding raise, perhaps.
Chris and I have talked about it a few times, you know, three months after Babylon, let's, let's perhaps the Caviar team talk about doing a funding raise.
We don't need it, but we might be able to go exponential with it.
So that's the discussion.
It's kind of like, you know, you could hire, you could make it much bigger.
So, yeah.
So that's, that's one of the things on the cards is that.
And then, of course, obviously, we want to expand out the Caviar stuff, the Caviar ecosystem.
There's a whole gamut of products that Chris and I and two of the other guys here are really interested in.
But, yeah.
Chris, do you want to jump in?
Yeah, I guess, I guess, no, that's the only thing I'd add to that is, is like, it's not like Epoch One of Babylon.
We hit the go button, everything's deployed.
You know, we were.
Oh, really?
That's not that fun.
We will be.
Yeah.
So we will be, we will be sort of obviously in stages releasing bits and pieces of the products and making sure everything's bedded down.
And, you know, so we're not trying to sort of, you know, there's, you know, there's a lot of bits of our ecosystem.
So, you know, it's a responsible thing to sort of do them in stages.
So albeit pretty shortly after each other, but, you know, to make sure everything's bedded down.
And like Oliver said, you know, there's bound to be some, I guess, some feedback or hopefully not any teasing issues,
but some feedback or something, you know, to do with the, you know, way in which the website operates or et cetera.
You know, things that you can't sort of foresee.
So, yeah, yeah, we'll just be sorting things out and then, and then maybe, maybe we might have a couple of days off.
Those 16 hour days I heard about.
Shock horror.
Well, thanks very much for coming on to the Rattics Report, guys.
Like I said, it's been a while, but it's always a pleasure to have you on.
And we're really excited to see how things go over the next few months for Caviar.
And another thing to everyone, like all of the things we've spoken about today and the articles that we mentioned,
we're going to be bringing out our own article on Caviar and interview with Caviar on Monday, I think, Christoph.
I think we're going to go with that on Monday.
So, finally, like, is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to mention before we move on to DeFi Plaza and AstroLesson?
Or we'll go to questions right after this as well.
If anyone's got a question, just put your hand up for a request and we'll get you up on the stage.
But is there anything we didn't cover today that you want to mention?
Not me.
I'm pretty okay.
Yeah, no, I'm just sort of very thankful for the community and the support that people have, you know,
given us using our centralised prototypes, DeSore and Caviar spot.
And, yeah, just really looking forward to the next few weeks.
Yeah, we're nearly there, guys.
It's nearly Babylon.
So, I'm hyped and I'm sure you guys are as well.
Any questions at all for the team?
I'll give it a few seconds, see if there's any hands.
But if not, it's been a pleasure, like I said, chatting to you and we'll see how things go over the next few months.
Anyone?
No, I think we're all good here.
But, yeah, thanks again, guys.
All right.
Thanks very much, everybody.
Thanks so much.
Absolutely great.
Amazing.
Cheers, Chris.
Cheers, Connor.
Cheers.
Thanks, everybody.
Okay, perfect.
So, we're now moving on to Timon.
I think you're muted.
So, how's it going?
Let me know if I pronounced that right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, you're pronounced it right.
Yes.
It's Timon.
Timon.
From Amsterdam.
Oh, Timon.
So, the weather isn't as great as over at Oliver and Chris, probably.
But, yeah, I'm good.
Good.
You're wearing a few hats today, aren't you?
Like, you're going to be chatting for five glasses and astrolescence.
So, I can just picture you.
Once you go to the astrolescence side, you put on, like, a mustache and a hat or something.
Some glasses.
Yeah.
Change my accent.
Yeah, change your accent.
Perfect.
So, let's just jump into it.
So, thanks for coming on.
You know, this is the first time we've had you on the Spaces session.
So, I'm really excited to chat.
We've been chatting, you know, on Telegram and stuff.
So, I'm looking forward to it.
But, so, DeFi Plaza, we'll start with DeFi Plaza.
That originated on Ethereum, first of all.
So, tell us about that experience as a project building on Ethereum to Radix.
Like, what was the difference?
It's hard.
Let's start with that.
I mean, building a startup is hard.
Building a crypto startup is even harder.
But imagine doing that with the UX of the internet 20 years ago and the technology of the internet 20 years ago, but with the competition of the modern internet.
It is incredibly hard.
The competition is tough.
But, and at the same time, the technology really isn't as good as, of course, as Radix, because that's why we're here.
But it's easy to make mistakes.
It's like if you went to Amazon, or maybe not Amazon, but a web shop, say, 20 years ago, and you wanted to order something, you had to type in your credit card number, there wasn't any encryption, you had to hope that it wasn't skimmed and you would lose all the money in your account.
And you would order something, and then days and days and days later, maybe it would arrive.
And I think that's a little bit how Ethereum at the moment feels.
It takes quite a while for transactions to approve.
Solidity is a hard language.
It's a low-level language.
It's easy to make mistakes.
Not everybody might know that, but DeFi Plaza actually had an exploit very early on in our life.
The DEX got drained.
We lost all the money because of something that could never have happened on Radix with crypto.
But at the same time, it's incredibly exciting.
Yeah, maybe I sound a bit negative about Ethereum, but at the same time, it is the network with the biggest money locked.
There's so much activity.
It is really exciting.
And I hope that Radix will be even more exciting and maybe a little bit easier to operate on them in Ethereum.
I had no idea that DeFi Plaza had actually experienced an exploit on Ethereum.
That's absolutely crazy.
Yeah.
Wow.
I think it happened three or four weeks after our initial launch.
There was an underflow in one of the edge cases.
Someone found it and drained the DEX.
Thanks to our community, we actually got back most of the money.
I think there was two, three million in the DEX at that time.
In the end, we lost, I think we really lost 400K USD.
Wow.
I'm talking about like it's not that much because it's crypto.
But if you think about it, it was devastating.
Wow.
It was really, really devastating to experience.
Yeah.
I drove to Jazzer and I brought a bottle of whiskey.
And the first thing we did, when we're done, we took a few.
But yeah, our community has been amazing.
I think without our community, we wouldn't be here.
But from the first hour, they encouraged us to try again, make it better, get back onto our feet and continue.
And I think in the end, it made us stronger.
Yeah.
I mean, community is like, it matters.
It matters a lot, really, doesn't it?
It's such an important factor on the success and sustainability of a project.
Yeah, it was amazing.
I mean, imagine that we lost all your money and then saying, okay, fair enough.
But please try again and continue.
Don't quit.
I mean, that was, it was so, so amazing.
Yeah.
And that gave us the energy to get back and try again.
So, yeah.
I mean, it's nice to know that, you know, you're now building on Radix.
Like, so that issue, is that something that would have been avoided by building on Radix?
Was that just an error within the codes, like smart contracts?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now there was a, to what happened, there was a numerical underflow, something that could
not happen.
It's a bit technical, but it couldn't have happened on script.
So, because it's based on Rust.
Yeah.
And this edge case could never have happened on Radix.
Not to say that it's not possible to build smart contracts with exploits on Radix.
But it is a lot, lot harder because of the language that they use, because of the scripto
library on top of it.
Um, I just saw the latest version of our, of our codes, um, for example, how you define
who is able to call which function in a smart contract and who is not allowed to.
It's just a very simple array where you say, this function is public.
This function is only callable by the owner.
Um, these type of features in scripto are going to save a lot and a lot of money in, in,
in exploits, in hacks, in, in, in things that are so easy to do wrong on other networks.
Well, there you go.
You, you heard it here first folks.
It's not like they tell you all the time, like build, build on Radix, build with scripto.
So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a shame of like building in solidity.
I'm not a developer, but I can understand that building in solidity is, it's, it's very
high, highly complex and, and it's very easy to make those mistakes.
Um, but it's, it's good that, you know, you're now building on Radix.
And, and these issues can be, you know, uh, minimized, these risks can be minimized.
So like, yeah, when, when did you first, well, when, yeah, when did DeFi Plaza first
hear about Radix?
Like what was it that sold it for, for that, for the project?
Yeah.
Jazzer, uh, my co-founder is a, is a real Radix OG, CG.
How do you call them?
I think he knows Dan from, I think almost 10 years already.
I know he visited him in, in 2014, uh, a long, long time ago.
So he has been a long time supporter of, of, of Radix.
He really helped out in the, in the early beginnings.
So it was always inevitable that we would launch on Radix, uh, and I'm not even sure if
Jazzer planned on launching on, on Ethereum at all.
Um, but in the early 2021s, um, it was, uh, Ethereum was massively congested.
Uh, the transaction fees were crazy where we're now optimizing on Radix on, on half an XRD,
one XRD that's like three cents, six cents, but early to 2021, if you wanted to do a swap
on, on Uniswap, it would cost you a hundred dollars to make that trade.
Mostly because platforms like Uniswap were badly designed, uh, uh, badly optimized and
Jazzer saw an opportunity, uh, and thought we can do better.
We can create a DAX that's, that has lower, uh, transaction fees, uh, and make that happen.
But because Jazzer was also part of the Radix community early on, we already had a big supporting
group from Radix, uh, some of our largest LP providers are, are investors in the Radix ecosystem.
Um, so it, it, it was inevitable that we would go down this path and that's how we ended up here.
Nice.
And obviously DeFi Plaza isn't like the only DEX on, on Radix.
Like, it'd be great if you could run us through the features and like, what, what makes it
different from all of these other DEXs built on Radix at the moment?
Yeah.
But it's funny that there, um, there's only, I think five, six, seven DEXs on, uh, on Radix
right now, uh, and on Ethereum where we're, we're competing with, I think, 5,000.
Um, um, so how are we different?
Uh, feature wise, I think for the swapper, the, the, the person who's doing the trades, not
so much, ideally we, uh, give you the best price and that's why you would swap with us.
Or if we are integrated in, in, in either Astrolessence or, or Caffey or aggregator, the
trade would go to us.
Um, there's not much to innovate on the, on the side of the trader.
Um, there, I think our unique features are much more on the LP providing parts.
Um, we learned that in most cases providing liquidity, um, is actually not profitable.
There's a lot of money that's being lost because of, uh, impermanent loss, uh, and that's how
we are building, uh, DeFi Plus on Radix right now.
Uh, we have a unique algorithm that's decreasing, uh, the impermanent loss on the pairs.
Uh, we're offering single-sided liquidity, so you can choose to either provide one token
or both.
Um, we're using DFP2 as our internal LP token.
So instead of XRD, any of the pairs are matched to DFP2, uh, and those are some of the features
that we're, we're building, uh, on Radix.
Yeah.
And I guess like, uh, another feature that you could say is like, you're, you're an OG
in the Radix community, you know, like you've been building for so long, you've been here
for so long and, um, you've got skin in the game or you're in the arena, so to speak.
Um, the community are, are, are behind you in that sense, you know?
Um, but also like you, you mentioned like a few issues or teething problems, like maybe
a few years ago with the exploit on Ethereum, like you must've learned quite a few things
about building a successful product from that.
Um, so what, what, what did you actually learn and, and plan template on the Radix Dix?
Yeah, I think, I think community is key and having a great community behind you is absolutely
essential in crypto.
Uh, you can't do it alone.
Your LP providers are not your customers.
They're your partners.
Uh, and I think for me, that is one of the biggest lessons, um, for DeFi Plaza, I think
the biggest lesson actually is, is that when we first started DeFi Plaza on Ethereum, we
thought that having the most volume would bring the most money to the LP providers.
So the more volume you have, uh, the more money flows into the, uh, the hands of the, the people
providing the liquidity, um, quickly we realized that's of course not true.
You have to have the most fees to actually have the most money flowing into the hands of the
LP providers.
You can set your fee to zero, have infinite volume, uh, but that doesn't make any money
for the, the people actually providing liquidity.
But over the last two years, we've started to realize more and more and more.
And I think recent research is also backing that is that regularly the impermanent loss
that the LP providers are experiencing is higher than the actual fees that they earn.
Um, um, Uniswap fee three, it's, it's killing, it's killing liquidity providers.
Um, over the last two years on the, on the most popular pairs, I think the loss
overall is 60 million.
So people lost overall $60 million by providing liquidity to, uh, Uniswap.
And it's not because there's no fees.
There are, there is 200 million USD, uh, there's 260 million in fees, but now there was 200 million
in fees and there's 260 million of impermanent loss, which means that they lost $60 million.
Uh, so when we started thinking, um, so what are we going to build for Redix, it was immediately
clear that we had to minimize impermanent loss as much as possible.
Uh, and, and that is our biggest lesson.
It doesn't matter what you do.
You don't have to have the most volume.
Um, but if you get the IL, uh, to a minimum and then, uh, get decent fees, you can actually
make money for your LP providers and the more liquidity is in your pools, the cheaper it
is for your trader to swap, et cetera, et cetera.
I think that's our, our biggest lesson after, after the running on Ethereum for two years.
Perfect.
Thank you for that.
And before we move on to like talking about Astrolesson, is there anything else you want
to mention about, um, about DeFi Plaza, anything coming up or, um, no, I don't think so.
I think we have a clear focus.
We, we want to move towards what we call sustainable DeFi, uh, which means actually making money
for our LLP providers, um, and that will be our biggest challenge.
If we can actually get that to work, we will be very successful.
If not, we have to upgrade the, the DEX and, and find another way.
Um, but we currently have just like the other DEXs on, on the Reddix, uh, a centralized prototype
running, uh, which had, I think an impermanent loss of minus 6% a week ago before we deployed
the latest version of our algorithm, we're now down to minus three.
So it actually seems to be working, which is really cool to see.
Um, and that's what we're going live with, uh, just after Babylon and, and see if we are,
if our assumptions are right.
Well, that's good.
Then that's, that must sell you with more confidence that it will work.
Yeah.
It's, it's amazing that, that Reddix makes it possible to, to run these experiments,
even without smart contracts.
Uh, we've had DEXs on, on Reddix even before there are smart contracts for over a year, uh,
Astro Lessons wouldn't be here without the, uh, uh, uh, the DEXs.
Uh, we have a whole ecosystem.
Everybody's already experimenting.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's crazy.
So you couldn't do that in Ethereum?
I'm really looking forward to the launch.
Um, no, no, I think the biggest, uh, difference is that, um, Ethereum, there isn't really a
concept called like a token or an NFT or any kind of assets.
Everything is a smart contract.
Uh, and that's also where a lot of the hacks come from.
There is a token standard called ERC 20, but it's really hard to see if a token actually implements
that standard correctly or drain your whole wallets.
The moment you trade a token and, uh, Reddix, uh, tokens, NFTs are all native to the platform.
So tokens are already built in, uh, Olympia, even before the smart contracts of, uh, of
Babylon goes live.
And then some smart people realized, Hey, if we already have tokens on Olympia, then we
could build a centralized, decentralized, uh, AMM on top of it and start trading those tokens.
And that's how we ended up here with a booming ecosystem even before Babylon.
So that was really interesting.
And, and I'd love to hear more about that actually.
I need to dive deeper into these things when I'm reading, um, try to wrap your head around
it and then, you know, obviously bring you on the spaces and try to explain more, but always
end up leaving with more questions than other answers.
Um, yeah, that's correct.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, anyone in the community, does anyone have any questions before we move on to
the Astro Essence section, just let us know, um, we'll ask Teeman mostly is here for this
section.
Um, but that was, that was really interesting.
Thank you, Teeman.
Um, I don't think we've got any questions for the DeFi Plaza section.
So let's, I have one question.
Very quick.
Uh, I'm not sure if this was addressed in the very beginning or, but still nonetheless, very
important.
When are you guys planning to collab?
Once the audit is done.
Uh, and so we are, uh, we don't have a clear deadline on that yet.
And at the same time from experience, like I explained earlier here on the, uh, on the
spaces, we are not going live without an audit ever again.
And that's, uh, so that's what we're waiting for.
Once that's done, we can go live.
Can be two days, can be two weeks, but, but early.
So I'm good.
Thanks.
Yeah.
I think we've got a question here from.
Cool.
Uh, radical XRD.
I'll just bring you up to the.
Shoot's just connecting just now.
Perfect.
On you go.
Uh, hello.
Can you guys hear me?
Yeah.
Yes.
Hi, good morning.
Um, or good afternoon for you guys.
The, uh, this is Wilson from, um, radical.
It's taking, I'm curious about one thing, both team and the cover 19 talked about, um, their
feature to, uh, reduce or eliminate impermanent laws.
And I was curious to know if there is any, uh, technical aspect of radix or scripto that
makes it easier to do that in a radix than other ledgers and blockchains, because I have
read white papers from, uh, Texas and other chains that, um, have the same objective to
eliminate or reduce impermanent laws.
Yeah.
And, and I felt like I needed to have a PhD in mathematics to understand what they were
talking about.
I mean, it did not seem a trivial, you know, a trivial, trivial, trivial, trivial thing
to do at all.
So, and then having heard both of you talking up, talking about that, I'm like, okay, radix
is definitely going to be different than if, you know, it's, it's, this is more, it's,
uh, uh, easier thing to do in radix than other chains.
So I was curious to maybe, you know, hear a little more about that.
Maybe if you guys can get a little more into the technical side, how you plan to do that.
Yeah.
No, I feel you.
I'm, I'm for, I'm a software developer myself, but I'm actually incredibly bad at math.
Uh, and I, I understand most of what's happening currently in DeFi Plaza, but it, it is a really
hard concept to grasp.
Even IL is already something that's hard to wrap your head around.
Um, can this only be done on radix?
I would say no.
Um, and so our algorithm is, is inspired by Dodo, uh, running on, uh, on the, on the
Ethereum, amongst others.
Uh, and, and we, you know, I could say upgrades, but we added a couple of features to it.
I think the biggest difference is that a lot of the things you would like to do on Ethereum
are possible, but are incredibly hard because of the script or language, uh, need to be thoroughly
and much more than on radix audited.
And the transaction fees can actually, uh, go up really, really fast.
So there has been order books, for example, on Ethereum very early on, uh, but they were
left behind rather quickly because it wasn't feasible to pay so much transaction fee to
something as simple as putting an order on an order book.
And what, what the guys from Kevri are, uh, are doing, but also alpha decks here on radix
is thanks to the much lower transaction fees, uh, and, and probably a more efficient, uh,
system in the back.
It's now possible.
So it's a bit of a yes or no question.
It's only possible on radix.
I think there's more possible on radix and it's easier to do.
Um, but if this is really working, uh, on radix, if, if our algorithm is actually
reducing IL, then I'm pretty sure that we will go back to Ethereum and launch a new Dexter
as well.
Feel, feel free to jump in as well, Caviar guys.
Um, I don't know if you have an opinion on, on that question, if you're still around.
I'm definitely still around.
Um, Chris, you want to jump in on IL or?
Um, yeah.
I mean, it's, it's, we could talk forever.
I mean, it's, it's, it's obviously, uh, so IL in terms of the LSU pool is, is this kind
of a very specific case, the lack of IL, because essentially everything in the pool is, is very,
very similar to each other.
It's not like you've got a really low vol token and a very high vol token, you know,
it's essentially proxies for XRD.
They only really differ by a tiny amount of yield.
So essentially there is, there is no IL there.
Um, in other, you know, in, how do you address IL?
Well, there's, there's, there's obviously various ways, um, you can do it.
I mean, DeFi Plaza have their own way.
Um, you know, you can do, which may or may not be similar to how, um, um, um, it's done in,
in certain pools in Ethereum where you may just say, a drop a token or something to compensate
for IL.
Um, I guess the thing with Radix is where, which, which, um, Timon alluded to is, is that
you can try and do some things which are reasonably sophisticated algorithmically in Radix, um, to
try to manage, um, IL.
And that in itself is quite cheap in Radix because computers and particularly costly, whereas
to do those kinds of algorithms on something like Ethereum would be costly.
And so it's self-defeating.
So I think that's exactly what I was going to say.
Yeah, no, I was exactly going to say the same thing.
It's the, it's the cheap compute on Radix and the asset orientated design that allows
you to not necessarily do anything radically different in the sense of IL, but you can sort
of, you can micromanage things perhaps a little bit better or you can, you can, because just
compute's cheaper.
I mean, but yeah, IL is IL.
There's nothing you can do about it.
But what, you know, for example, the reason that we were talking about earlier is that,
that DEX is fixed fees, you know, so the swapper would pay 30 basis points every time
and the IL would earn 30 basis points, um, or, well, actually the DEX would take a bit and
then the, and the, um, the liquidity provider would earn the other slugger the proportion.
And then they did that, but it's fixed because the computation was so expensive, but realistically
that shouldn't be fixed, right?
It should be dynamic.
It should be much more interesting.
You know, when you've got volatile and lots of impermanent loss because the prices of something
is moving very far, then you should be compensating your, your liquidity providers more.
And so there are methods that you can do to make it fairer, but ultimately you can't make
a machine that just prints money in the sense that, you know, at the zero sum game, someone's
got to gain some, somebody's going to gain and someone's going to lose.
So what you want to do is just balance that and get the fees just right so that swappers
paying just the right amount, such as the impermanent, so that the liquidity providers
are earning just about the right amount.
And, and, you know, happy days for everybody.
And then, you know, it takes a lot of math to do that.
And that's impossible to do on the market here.
Perfect.
Thanks for jumping in on that one, guys.
Radical, is there any more questions that you'd like to do now?
Yeah, they did answer your question.
No, I didn't.
They helped me understand a lot better your approach.
Thanks a lot.
Perfect.
Great.
Awesome.
Is there any more questions for DeFi Plaza at all from anyone else?
Just so you know, there's an article on the Radix website as well.
Just going into detail.
Oh, I think we actually do have a request.
Suraj?
I think it's just connecting now.
You can speak now.
Hope you're doing well.
I was just wondering about the Uniswap V4, the ideas of hooks and customizable liquidity pools.
So have you guys ever thought about the design of the features that are coming for Uniswap V4?
And any such ideas being implemented on your decks?
Yeah.
We definitely thought about it.
At the same time, we want to keep focused.
So we want to do one thing and one thing really well.
And that's reducing IL and making money for our LP providers.
And that's why we decided to keep it simple, or not simple, at least keep it, yeah, maybe simple, not too many features, and get the best deal for our LP providers, and not put on too many bells and whistles.
So for us, no, we're in the near term.
And we don't see us implementing hooks like Uniswap V4 would do.
Okay.
Yeah.
You're welcome.
Thanks for asking.
Perfect.
So we'll now move on to AstroLesson.
I'm just conscious of time in case you don't have much long left.
So AstroLesson has had a really interesting year building away, obviously.
You've been down with that.
So what has it been like over the last year for you?
So how have you managed to overcome some challenges?
Yeah, maybe a little bit of background why I am both on the DeFi Plaza and AstroLesson team.
I think a bit more than a year ago, I had dinner with Jazza, and we were brainstorming what else can we actually do on Redix?
What will be cool to do?
And one of the things that Jazza and I came up with was an aggregator.
And that piqued my interest, but I was super busy with DeFi Plaza.
And like I said, I'm not the math guy, so it would be hard for me to build the algorithms.
And then I think around second half of July last year, one of our most active community members, Marinin, launched an aggregator, the first aggregator even on Redix.
And that was for me a big bummer because I thought, damn it, I wanted to launch an aggregator, and now somebody else already did it.
And I thought, let's leave it like that and focus on DeFi Plaza.
And then a few days later, Marinin approached me and asked me, do you have time?
I actually need help.
I built the aggregator while I'm not a developer myself.
So it is working, but I actually need someone with your technical skills to come on board.
And we dated for two weeks.
I built the new website.
I built a new backend, launched a new design.
And then we decided to get married and work together.
So that's why I'm on both projects.
And yes, it has been a roller coaster.
So I think the second thing Marinin asked me after, do you want to join and build an aggregator?
He asked, are you comfortable with launching a stablecoin?
And I was silent for a little while because I said, are you serious?
He said, yeah, the aggregator is my first idea, but I really fell in love with launching a stablecoin.
So from, I think, August last year, we have been working on getting the first fully collateralized stablecoin to Redix,
which is an almost impossible thing to do.
It is incredibly hard to get the right partners on board, especially as a smart team, a small team, without any big funding.
But thanks to an introduction by Pierce himself, we actually got in talks with Prime Trust, who were willing to work with us.
And so thanks to them, thanks to their partners, we started building the first fully collateralized stablecoin on Redix.
And if Prime Trust wouldn't have went bankrupt, we would have been launching the stablecoin.
And I don't even remember when it has to have been three months ago.
Our contacts became less and less responsive.
And then they came with the bad news to us and told them, sorry, guys, it's not going to happen.
We are going to file for bankruptcy.
You lost all your money that you put in to get the contracts.
And in the foreseeable future, there's nothing we can do for you.
And so that was the end for us for the stablecoin journey, because we already knew that Prime Trust for us was the only viable option to do it.
We talked to a few other potential banking partners and issuers, but they were either asking insane amounts of money or they really didn't want to work with us because they didn't support Redix or thought we were too small or any of the other reasons.
So within, I think, two or three weeks, we decided, OK, this is not going to happen.
Let's tell everybody the bad news and go back to what we are actually already doing and offering the best aggregator on Redix.
And so that is a bit of our journey in the last year.
The whole getting the stablecoin out there really burned out Meronym as well.
So that's why I took over as project leads.
He's still helping with the algorithms, with a few of the other stuff, but he's taking it a little bit slow.
So there has been a rollercoaster.
And hey, we're still here.
Seems like a very challenging journey, short, challenging journey for you.
Yes, it was.
It was very easy to give up.
But I think once again, we had a great community behind us that was supportive, that reached out to help.
There were so many people reaching out to us publicly, but especially also privately, if they could help with potential introductions.
And I think just like with DeFi Plaza two years ago, that gave us the confidence to continue and not quit.
Amazing.
It's great to see that you picked yourself back up from that.
So I'd love to actually chat about the relationships you have with other projects on Radix.
You know, you've announced on your socials and blogs, like you'll be partnering with DeFi Plaza, of course, and also Emote Care.
Of course.
Yeah, of course.
And I really believe that that success will come quicker with a great relationship with community on Radix, but also building those connections with other projects, you know, as they claim you, in a sense, come with them.
So what can the community expect to come from those partnerships?
Like to what capacity is Astral Essent going to be involved in the day to day of that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the deal we struck with Emote Care was to be their fiat on and off ramp to their remote healthcare product that they're launching.
And since we are not offering a fiat on and off ramp anymore, we also buried that partnership because we couldn't offer them what they needed from us.
And they're looking for other partnerships.
I strongly believe that we are stronger together.
I always liked the Ape Stronger Together from the Kiv from Planet of the Apes, but I truly believe that we are, we can only be successful as Radix on Radix if we do it together.
If we are going to outcompete each other, not work together, and fight each other to death, then nobody will win.
And we need to grow Radix together, be visible, be supportive, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think what makes Astral Essent unique is that we, especially in the spaces around DEXs and other trading platforms, is that we are not competing with them.
We will bring, if we are successful, we will bring them more volume.
And I think that's why we are building these types of relationships where, of course, the one with Diva Plaza is the most obvious.
But we're talking to a few others as well to really deeply integrate into their trading platforms to be able to get the most traffic to them.
And that's also something that I learned from Ethereum.
If you look at Diva Plaza on Ethereum, there's 5,000 other DEXs, at least on Ethereum.
So it's incredibly hard to get traffic to our website.
And what we got a pretty well-working integration with OneInch, the biggest aggregator on Ethereum.
And from that integration, I think 90, maybe even 95% of our traffic is coming.
So we offer the cheapest price, the best deal as DeFi Plaza.
And thanks to OneInch, that's bringing us a lot of traffic and thus feeds for our liquidity providers.
And I want to be, or we want to be in a similar position on Reddix where we can actually help and work together with a lot of different projects to be as successful as possible.
So we cannot, especially Astrolescent, cannot do this on our own because we need those partnerships and integrations to be successful.
Yeah, no, for sure.
It's key to your growth.
And just the final question, and you kind of touched on it a little bit.
Like, how do you get Astrolescent to stand out and an aggregator to use in such a saturated market, I guess?
Yeah.
Saturated.
Well, Reddix isn't.
Well, not Reddix.
There's two aggregators.
Kaffir is launching one.
We are launching one.
Maybe in five years you have 20 aggregators, 100 aggregators, and then hopefully being one of the first helps.
And this is not to say that Kaffir is doing it wrong, but we took a different approach.
So I really believe in a laser focus on the aggregator or being what I call the one-stop shop for trading tokens on Reddix.
A simple user interface.
If you want to trade any token on Reddix, you go to Astrolescent.
We have them all, and we get you the best deal.
And in the end, I think what will, hopefully, Kaffir, stand us apart is that we have to better algorithms.
But we have to prove that, and I think only after Babylon we will learn, are we able to get better deals than our biggest current competitor?
If not, we have to do better.
If yes, we have to do even better because the competition is close.
But I think those are the two things.
A clear focus on what we're doing.
Make it easy for users to understand why they would use Astrolescent.
And then get them the best deal and a better deal than the competitors.
I think it's not really different than being a DAX in that sense.
Yeah, for sure.
Well, thank you very much, Timon.
That was really insightful for Astrolescent and DeFi Plaza.
I really appreciate you coming here.
Is there any questions at all for Timon for the Astrolescent section, just relating to Astrolescent or even DeFi Plaza if you want?
He might as well.
He's here.
Yeah.
Just put your hands up for requests.
Yeah, put the other hat on your glasses.
Chris, any questions for Timon at all?
Are you happy with what we've seen?
I'm good.
I'm good.
I ask all my questions on the other ones on Reddit's interview.
Yeah, so that's another point to make.
We do actually have an article on Astrolescent on the Radix blog, as well as Christoph's own interview with Timon on our YouTube channel.
So if you want to learn more or you want a little recap of what we've discussed, go ahead and check it out.
Or contact me directly.
Join our Telegram channels, DM me.
I'm always happy to respond to any questions that you might have.
Finally, you know where I am on Twitter.
You can follow me here.
I'm rather transparent about the things that we're doing and happy to answer questions that you may not want to ask publicly.
Feel free to ask them privately.
Yeah, of course.
Everyone check out the Astrolescent pages and get in on the community.
But thank you very much to Timon, Oliver.
Chris as well.
And Christoph, thank you for coming on the spaces as well.
And it's been another successful Radix report.
We'll have another one in about two weeks' time.
So that's around about Babylon, actually.
I think it's a few days after Babylon.
So it'll be a really interesting time.
But yes, this space is recorded as well.
So if you want to go back and listen, feel free.
And we'll all chat to you later.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Timon.
Yeah.
It was great.
Thank you very much indeed.
Pleasure.
Yeah, thank you guys.
See you later and have a good weekend.
Will do.
Same to you, gentlemen.
Thank you, everyone who came on the call to listen.
Cheers.
Bye-bye.
Cheers, everyone.
Cheers, Timon.
Cheers, Timon.
