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Chad's Lounge: $BCH x THORChain
Recorded: Sept. 6, 2025 Duration: 2:11:15Space Recording
Full Transcription
speaker right now, but I'm gonna do a mic check.
Mic check.
Kenton, can you hear me?
All right.
I got a heart from the Thor chain thing.
I'll wait for Kenton to see if he's got a mic check
Make sure my brother's there
Oh, he's down as a listener. Okay. No worries. We'll get him back up
I'm gonna get this party started guys. Welcome everybody. We got a fun one today
We got the bitcoin cash boys. They're gonna be joining us
So we're gonna get them on stage, but as always we're gonna get this party started
We're gonna start with the introduction here.
Okay.
All right.
Welcome one and all.
So guys, ThorChain is a decentralized exchange that enables you to swap Bitcoin or Bitcoin
cash with thousands of other cryptocurrencies.
All layer one native tokens.
There are no bridges or wrap tokens involved.
It's all the real deal, folks. And all within the self-custody wallet that you like.
There's no KYC on ThorChain.
KYC means kill your customer.
We don't do that.
ThorChain is permissionless.
ThorChain's token is called RUNE.
That is spelled R-U-N-E.
Romeo Uniform November Echo.
You do not need to buy or hold Rune to place a
swap on ThorChain. Very, very important. So for example, if you have some Bitcoin and you're like,
well, I think these Bitcoin cash boys are onto something. When you make a swap to Bitcoin to
Bitcoin cash, how it works is all the gas fees for the intermediary, like the Rune and the outbound
for the BCH, that's all taken from the starting asset for the intermediary, like the RUNE and the outbound for
the BCH, that's all taken from the starting asset, which would be Bitcoin. So you don't need to hold
RUNE to swap on ThorChain. Isn't that great? But those fees incurred are what is used to buy RUNE.
And then that RUNE is the yield that goes to the liquidity pools and nodes. There are no block
rewards on ThorChain. 100% of the yield is real. ThorChain has another
token called TCY, Tango Charlie Yankee. This token is kind of like a preferred stock. 10% of the
protocol's revenue goes to these token holders. If you deposited crypto into savers or took out a
loan on ThorChain, make sure to claim your TCY token so you can start collecting this yield
and anybody can buy the TCY token as well.
This is going to change soon.
I'm going to kick it to Kenton after this.
But to swap on ThorChain, go to ThorChain.org, click on swap,
and you'll see all the wallets and websites that use ThorChain.
And you can choose the interface you want to use.
We're going to be having our own interface soon.
And Kenton will give that up when he gets on stage.
Ruggiero is building a decentralized Binance on ThorChain smart contract layer.
It's being rolled out as we speak.
Very, very exciting, guys.
And speaking of Binance, if you hold Rune on a centralized exchange,
you need to withdraw it into self-custody,
because these tokens can be used to short-sell Re and drive the price down on us, right?
And once in self custody, you should look into bonding your rune. Excuse me. And how you should
do that is go to runebond.com. It's very easy, you guys. All you have to do is decide to click a node,
request a whitelist, and then you can bond your rune and start earning rune on your rune.
Hell of a deal, guys. Super exciting. There's a ThorChain community discord and telegram you can bond your rune and start earning rune on your rune. Hell of a deal, guys. Super exciting.
There's a ThorChain community Discord and Telegram.
You can join to learn all about ThorChain as well
and make some awesome friends.
To find the links, go to at ThorCommunityAccount on Twitter.
Guys, please repost the space.
Let's get some people in here.
This is going to be a fun one.
Okay, guys, I'm really excited.
And I really love the fact that I mentioned
about the pulling your Rune tokens off the centralized exchange.
The Bitcoin Cash Boys love doing that.
I'm going to give a quick introduction
and I'm going to kick it to Kenton.
He's going to have, we have some housekeeping to do.
And then we're going to get right into it, guys.
So my name is Denny.
I have another account called Patriot Sounds.
I also use the RuneBond content creator educator for Thor chain going on
five years now I think quite a long time love it having a great time Thor
chains kicking butt I'm gonna go ahead give it to you Kenton wouldn't you a
mic check make sure you're there buddy mic check can you hear me dude you sound
amazing go for it thanks hi everyone Kenton Ralph toes I started the you
share rune fund they can investing in a rune and running nodes on Thor chain Thanks. Hi, everyone. Kenton and Ralph Toews. I started the YouShare Rune Fund.
I'm investing in Rune and running nodes on ThorChain. So I'm a node operator and bond provider
on ThorChain. And yeah, the housekeeping. So I'll let you guys know version one of the front end
is the beta version is live. I posted the link in discord in the front end channel
uh if you guys are motivated go click on it play with it point out bugs um your help would be
appreciated and you know just keep in mind like this is just step one we have a long way to go so
you know be gentle on the judgments but um yeah some things aren't working as as they should let us know and um
um marketing update so we set up the two three of all t sig with scorch and monica from nine realms
and i posted the address there in discord in um in the marketing channel and uh we'll get that put on the ADR as well. And then so that address will show up in
the Constance link, just like the Dev Fund address does. And that should go out and update 3.12.
I've been busy this week, guys. I'm kind of wiped. I've just been going nonstop. I'm
meeting to meeting different marketing companies
and people trying to find somebody to hire.
I've had some good conversations.
They're going well.
So hopefully within the next week or two,
you know, we settle on somebody.
And then, you know, once we get that person,
you know, kind of like a general contractor
can like really, you know, guide us, you know, help us what we need to do.
We'll come up with a more formalized plan.
But kind of what I've been getting from everybody, like it's it's everyone's kind of saying the same thing is that, you know, what we need to focus on first is SEO. and which ties into AI optimization, AEO or GEO.
And forgive me, I forget what they stand for.
But this is about just like spreading propaganda,
you know, positive content, you know, education online
so that when, you know, people are searching,
you know, we show up, right?
And so we need to get that sorted out first.
That's our priority.
And then we can move to pay-per-click.
And really don't wanna do pay-per-click
until the front end has a bit more functionality anyway,
like dex segregation, a few more wallets,
that sort of stuff.
So the timing could work out well.
It's gonna take a few several weeks. So the timing can work out well. It's going to take a few several
weeks to get the SEO stuff sorted out. And then we can focus more on the pay-per-click.
And by that time, the website has a bit more done, right? But the goal is eventually to have
all our money going towards SEO versus pay-per-click, because SEO should have higher conversion.
And it is evergreen.
It lasts, whereas pay-per-click, it's just,
as soon as you stop doing it, it stops working.
And also, too, with SEO, people have intent.
They're looking for, they have a problem,
and they're looking for a solution now.
And we need to pop up as their solution so that they will act now.
Whereas with pay-per-click,
we're hoping we find somebody with that problem and we're hoping they're
ready to act in that moment. Right. And it's, you know,
there's a lot more friction, a lot more to come over. Right.
So the goal is to get a SEO and AIO, get that dialed in,
you know, so that it's working for us, you know, nonstop type thing.
Yeah, so once we have, you know, somebody, some people hired,
I'll give another update.
But yeah, if I'm quiet or you don't hear from me,
I'm working on this, guys.
I'm busy, you know, doing stuff to try and push this forward.
So I guess my quiet would be kind of a good thing.
It means I'm busy behind the scenes.
Yeah, so let's see if I'm going to update on those two things.
Yeah, and guys, when it comes to SEO search engine optimization, right?
I know we got the Reddit thing going.
I know people were struggling with posting in there.
Try again, please.
We actually had a filter on there
and I think it was just a little too aggressive.
I know Reddit's gonna be kind of a pain in the butt,
but guys, even if it requires us to chew on diamonds,
this is something we gotta do.
So let's get it done.
Please start, you know, make a Reddit account,
get on the ThorChain Reddit, go to the Regero 1 and 2, and let's just it done. Please start, you know, make a Reddit account, get on the ThorChain Reddit,
go to the Ruggiero 1 and 2,
and let's just play the game.
That's what we got to do, right?
I know many people don't like Reddit.
I'm not a fan of it myself,
but we're going to do what we're going to do.
And if we all do it together,
we're going to do really well.
So thank you for the update, Kenton.
And I can vouch, the guy's working very, very hard, guys.
So, but there's no reason we can't help him, right?
We're all ADR 21. Go ahead. Thanks, Patri there's no reason we can't help him. Right. We're all, we're all ADR21.
Go ahead. Thanks, Pedro. Am I going to add another thing? Yeah. Volunteers, content creators,
you know, you guys love ThorChain posting about it. Great. Keep doing it, please.
And, you know, pick, pick whichever platform you like and just go with it. And, you know,
brag about it. You know, I'm trying to push it out. I'm trying to think of ways that we can, you know, reward you for your efforts type thing,
you know, if so, hopefully, it's more than just social credit, you know, or just, you know,
getting attention. Hopefully, there's other ways we can, we can benefit you guys. But, you know,
please, please start doing it. You know, it's the only way Bitcoin got huge was thousands of people being passionate and spreading the message.
And that's what we need too.
And if we get a thousand Torchads all pushing Torchhead, this will work.
I don't see how it can't.
So, yeah, please be motivated be motivated do it work is recognized and
is needed and thank you 100 five to ten minutes a day guys sometimes it's all if that's all you got
that's all you need it's real easy it's just something click go make a post make content or
if you really want to go in and go all out we would love that too we're all on the same team
we're doing together was there anything else k Kenton, or should we start going to the introductions?
I think that's good. Yeah. I'm going to go introduce the guys.
Awesome. Thank you, man. You're really killing it, bro. Keep it up. And everyone's really
happy to see ADR21 just start to roll off. It's great. Okay, guys, let's get to that. We're going
to introduce our BCH family here. Very cool. We had a space with them a few weeks ago and it was
so much fun. We had such a great time a few weeks ago and it was so much fun.
We had such a great time. So I'm going to go ahead and start the Bitcoin Cash podcast. Go ahead and give us an introduction. Hey everyone. So I'm Jeremy. I got into
Bitcoin in 2013. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still in it. BCH is the real Bitcoin.
But I host the Bitcoin Cash podcast
where I talk about everything that's going on in crypto,
obviously, but a bit of a focus on BCH.
So we do all the latest deep dives
and tech and releases there.
And then also talk a little bit about,
you know, whatever's trending.
I've talked to the thought chain,
FamiliaCow and like, you know,
other projects around the space. I promote talked to the Thought Chain, Familiar Cow, and other projects around the
space. I promote BCH like that. I'm also one of the developers of Selene Wallet, which is an open
source BCH-only wallet. And I'm the organizer or one of the organizers of a hackathon called BCH
Blaze, which we will be launching this year. It's happening November 15th.
So hoping to convince any aspiring builders
to come and join us on that and win some BCH.
That's it for me.
Awesome, dude.
Heck yeah.
We'll go ahead and go to Emergent Reasons.
Go ahead.
Give us an introduction.
Hey, can you hear me?
You're great. Go for it.
All right. Yeah, I'm John Emergent Reasons.
I have been in Bitcoin Cash since 2014, similar to Jeremy.
I run a company called General Protocols,
and I think we're the earliest pioneers of doing DeFi
on native Bitcoin Cash smart contracts back in 2019.
So we've been doing that for a while and doing quite well.
I'm also one of the founders of one of the Bitcoin Cash nodes called BCHN.
And yeah, that's a very important thing, obviously, but something that I'm not an active developer on.
But, you know, a big project needs different talents.
So I work on other parts of that.
And then probably the last thing worth mentioning is I helped to found a thing called Flipstarter,
which is a crowdfunding platform that also uses native BCH capabilities to do crowdfunding in a trustless way. And that has raised tens of
millions of equivalent US dollars directly in Bitcoin cash to fund all kinds of projects,
infrastructure, products, companies, and so forth. Yeah. So I've been around for a little while and
always working to increase the amount of non-custodial,
trustless tools and products available to everyone.
Sounds great, man. Thank you for that. I'm going to go to Dr. Flex, which is just an
absolutely banger name. I love Dr. Flex. It's sick. Go ahead and give us an introduction.
Yeah. Hi, everybody. I'm Dr. Flex, a community member here.
I've been actively involved in the BCH community for the past six years.
Building, collaborating, spreading 30p electronic cash over here in Africa.
So yes, it's nice meeting you guys and then let's get into it.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for the introduction. Go to Havlor. Give us an introduction, buddy.
Yeah, I'm Halvor. I'm a rocket engineer and co-founder of Riftin Labs. We have made Cauldron, the world's fastest DEX and also MUSD, decentralized
open source over collateralized stable coin. I co-founded Riftin Labs with Dagger Volberg.
He was the original maintainer of the BigBlocker node, first guy to implement BIP100, true
legend, shout out to him.
Also, quick shout out to our friend Renegade.
We do Rift Labs, and we love casting spells.
I'm very happy to be back on with you guys.
Dude, great to have you too.
I really had so much fun talking to you.
It was really great, especially on the Regiran side,
and we had the Mocha guys involved.
It was a great conversation we had.
We got some extra guests up here.
Joel, thank you for making it, man.
Awesome.
You want to give us a brief introduction of yourself?
Hey, everyone.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for inviting me, by the way.
My name is Joel, and I've been what I would like to call a pre-cacher. I've been kind of in the big block, let's say, digital cache space since before Bitcoin
came around. But I'm a friend of the community.
I consider it sort of like Canadians, like brothers from another mother.
And yeah, I do earn BCH for my podcast, so I'm definitely part of that.
So I run business development marketing for Dash currently and have been living all in crypto and been in the ThorChain space since the ChaosNet days, since the very beginning just about.
And active in the Maya protocol, et cetera, et cetera.
And I'm just very excited about the ThorChain space in general.
And I've been harping on the VCH community forever to get much more involved with ThorChain because, oh my gosh, this is awesome.
This is everything you guys need to be involved in awesome banger and yeah shout out to our my protocol bros
we love them they're our mexican family over there absolute chats um aftermath you want to
give us a quick introduction and we're going to get started here i'm going to give you a few seconds
all right no worries.
You might have some mic issues.
That happens.
You guys know how X spaces are.
They rug a lot.
Okay, guys.
So, you know, you guys gave an introduction.
Maybe give us a quick little history on BCH.
I know there's a lot there that might be hard,
but I'll go ahead and maybe I can,
the Bitcoin Cash podcast might be your cup of tea.
I think you did this last time.
Do you want to just kind of give like what BCH is all about and, you know, why it forked
and just give us a quick rundown on the history?
That might be a good starting spot.
Yes.
Okay.
So the first thing you need to understand is that when Satoshi released the white paper
for Bitcoin in 2008, he put it the title, Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. So to the
extent that you might have been told Bitcoin is digital gold, or it's an asset that you can invest
in, it's a crypto asset, anything like that, that's all just complete propaganda, right?
So what happened was, this was this digital cash system and it
was going great satoshi founded it it took off it was just exploding basically most of the world
hated it but the people who loved bitcoin just loved it and they flocked onto it and part of
the reason was because it was very easy to transact you know in 2009 2012 even 2014 2015 like paper wasn't nearly as advanced as it is now
there was no cash app there was no venmo there was none of this like even online banking sucked
basically everywhere in the world so bitcoin was a you know chance to change that and have a actual
commercial system of course famously with silk road uh it
took off as well for people using it to transact online so at a certain point uh you know despite
its immense initial success the bitcoin community began to get internally political. So here's where the story diverges a little bit. In my mind,
the project was taken over and hijacked by, you know, the powers that be, nefarious interests in
banking that wanted to stop it growing. But of course, if you ask the BTC people, they will give
you a completely different story that, you know, the B caches were
some, you know, malevolent force that was trying to ruin their project or something like that. So
everybody should definitely listen to both sides and make up their own mind. But the BCH side is
essentially well documented in a book called Hijacking Bitcoin, which explains that at the time,
there was a lot of community discussion which got censored. I was a part of that. I was
one of, if not the most popular poster on our Bitcoin Reddit, which at the time was where all
the discussion happened. And I got banned as well as literally like thousands of other posters
for having these heretical views that Bitcoin should scale with an increased block size, which was, you know,
the plan that Satoshi had and that I and many others presumed that we were going to be on.
But as a result of, you know, the block size war, long and drawn out argument over this issue,
it ended up being that the only way for a block size increase to actually be performed would be a chain split, which is not, it was a hard fork, but it's not the same as a hard fork.
People confuse that.
They think that a fork means you get two coins, which is not true.
It can if it's a chain split, but the BTC, BCH, like ETH, you know, they upgrade, you know, all the time, not BTC now, but coins can upgrade
with forks without creating a chain split. But this one did create a chain split. And so BCH has
been essentially free to pursue the big block scaling approach to reaching global reserve
currency since 2017. Initially, it didn't go very well in a sense. It was better than nothing. It's better
to have BCH than not because otherwise we'd be here without a viable path at all. But there was,
of course, this sabotage as well by Craig Wright pretending to be Satoshi. And he was then used to
heavily smear this big blocker approach, but he was eventually thankfully rejected from the community
in 2019 to their chain BSV, which is maybe actually late 2018.
Sorry.
He got rejected and then created his own chain.
And then in 2020, there was another chain split over the dev implementation by Amori
Sashay, who was a prominent developer at the time.
But since 2021, which was when I founded the podcast, because I saw that things had turned
the corner, the BCH community has been very well aligned and very focused and has successfully
done upgrades every single year.
So that BCH now is in the world where it has to compete with
BTC and with every other crypto project that is much larger and did not have so much hijacking
and sabotage and civil war throughout its history.
So we've got to catch up and make a compelling case that BCH can be the global reserve currency,
in case that BCH can be the global reserve currency, allowing everybody to access on-chain
cheap transactions. And the primary strategy for that at the moment is to make BCH the leading
chain for UTXO DeFi. So of course, everyone knows DeFi is huge and you can't really compete with
being a digital rock like BTC if you don't have the same network effect.
So the BCH strategy is to kind of combine the UTXO model, which Satoshi pioneered and
which is actually very, very powerful, but has been underexplored because the BTC community
community refuse to develop on it, or at least they can't figure out a way to. And other chains
refused to develop on it, or at least they can't figure out a way to.
like Litecoin or Dogecoin sort of take their lead from BTC, whereas the BCH community actually
thinks independently, has produced all its own research, all its own dev work, all its own
protocol upgrades. And we're going to combine that, which is very fast and very scalable
with the innovations in cryptocurrency happening on Ethereum chains,
things like DeFi, things like native stable coins, you know, things like smart contracts
of all varieties. So I'd say in a nutshell, that's kind of where I feel like BCH is at today.
Yeah. And guys, this is going to be an open conversation. And I know Joel has a lot of
history with Bitcoin and all that stuff. So please, anyone feel free to pipe in. But the one thing that I thought was really important when we talked about last was, you know, we were talking about transaction speed and you guys want to be, I mean, it's Bitcoin cash, right? You guys want to be used as cash. You want to be used as a settlement layer. And one big topic was Mocha, right? And the capabilities now that
we have a decentralized, permissionless, no KYC pool of Bitcoin cash, now it can be a settlement
layer, right? And that's the thing I'm so excited you guys to speak to the audience here is, you
know, we really just need to invest in talking with these wonderful chains that we have here.
Like there is so much capability now that we have.
And we guys want swap volume?
Well, we have all the moving pieces to do that.
So this is such an exciting time.
But I'm going to go ahead and open up to other speakers
if anyone wants to tag on or add anything like to that.
It's a free-flowing conversation, guys.
Go ahead.
I know it's always awkward when you open and no one knows that they want to speak, but
go ahead, Kenton.
I have a little, it's just, I hope you guys just find this funny.
I'm not trying to be a jerk.
Emergent, you said you've been in Bitcoin Cash since 2014, but did Bitcoin Cash start
in 2017 or did it start in 2008?
I'm curious how you rationalize that.
Bitcoin Cash absolutely started in 2008 from my perspective, yes.
Cool.
On that note, by the way, just for history,
it's not a uniquely kind of Bitcoin thing.
I know I'm pretty close with the Hive community and Hive is the surviving fork of Steam.
And so all the accounts and everything else were there from the Steam base and after Justin's son took over Steam, there was a civil war, etc.
And Hive survived. They kind of date back the history. There's kind of like the two days right as far as the genesis of the blockchain that now is I
So yeah, there's sometimes a little bit of confusion with forks, but they're you know when you actually have watching history
That goes all the way back
You you could kind of use either one I think you whoever's speaking your mic is really bad
I don't know if you can fix that or not.
Sorry.
You were audible.
Go ahead, Mergent.
Of course, it's half tongue-in-cheek, but it's also half serious, right?
Because for those of us who have been in Bitcoin, for many people, I won't say for only those who have been in it for a long time, but it's a very serious thing, right?
It's not just an investment.
It's not just a speculative asset.
It's something that I got into to change the world.
And of course, part of the incentive of that is,
if you join early, you also have a financial incentive.
And so I signed up for both of those,
the financial incentive and changing the world.
So it's a very serious thing to me.
And so it is half tongue in cheek, but it's also half not tongue in cheek because I do think that Bitcoin Cash is the one that has a chance to actually still change the world.
I totally agree with you, man.
I'm sure you guys have you seen the meme of like Bitcoin in 2013, Bitcoin today. And it's like, you know, and so, so, OK, you know what I'm sure you guys, have you seen the meme of like Bitcoin in 2013, Bitcoin today?
And it's like, you know, and so, so, okay.
You know what I'm talking about?
So people listening or don't, it's like when Bitcoin started, it was like, you know, and
central banks, privacy, you know, freedom, you know, all, you know, cypherpunk stuff.
Now it's like, you know, BlackRock pumped my bags, you know, treasury companies, you
know, please government, will you allow me to use my Bitcoin? You know, it's like, you know, BlackRock pumped my bags, you know, treasury companies, you know, please
government, will you allow me to use my Bitcoin?
You know, it's like, what happened?
You know, where did this movement get off the rails?
There's actually a book that covers that extremely well, which is what Jeremy mentioned, the
hijacking BTC, I think is the name.
But yeah, it actually covers that topic very well.
So I really enjoy talking to you guys. I always love the counter view of stuff. So we're inundated
with Bitcoin propaganda and there's a plethora of Bitcoin maxis all spewing their propaganda.
And if they talk about everything else is a shit coin and it's only Bitcoin and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Right. We all know what they say.
I'm curious what your guys view is of Bitcoin.
Like, do you do you think it's a shit coin?
Do you think or you're like, well, you know what, we can coexist.
You know, it's a free market and like, you know, hard, no hard blood.
You know, we're we're going gonna do our thing, keep going. Or
it's like, do you have just as much animosity for the Bitcoin crew as they would for for you or
anyone else? I think this is getting to the topic of maximalism, which Jeremy and Joel and I talk
about in various from various angles. But if you go back far enough, the concept of maximalism was a really constructive and
positive thing. Right.
The whole concept was, hey, we've got this thing that has network effect because back
in the day there were no other coins.
Right. It was just it was just Bitcoin.
And then eventually some others came along.
But this idea of as things came along, it was.
You know, it's fine to have
competition.
That's fantastic and necessary.
You have to have competition.
If you don't, then you're absolutely going to stagnate and end up corrupt and broken.
So competition is amazing.
And then at the same time, recognizing that the equal distribution of things is not a natural thing that when you have competition, you end up with some type of Pareto distribution or some type of power distribution where 80% or 90% or whatever of usage happens in one place because that's the nature of network effects.
of network effects and so the idea of maximalism was just hey we're gonna do
everything we can to absorb all the lessons we can from everywhere else
make the most competitive most powerful chain that is useful as money and
actually gets adopted as world money by an absolutely massive number of people
right billions of people and that has no that there's nothing in that that requires you to say everything
else is a shit coin. Everything else is bad. Everything else is useless, right? No, competition
is great. Competition keeps you honest. And I think that's pretty fair statement of where Bitcoin
cash is, right? Like we recognize that we lost the network effect when the hijacking happened
from our perspective, right? And all of that network
effect has to be regained and we absolutely intend to regain it and end up, you know,
like ThorChain intends to be used by, you know, huge number of people. Same for Bitcoin cash.
We intend to be used for DeFi, contracts, finance, savings, payments by as many people as possible.
savings, payments by as many people as possible.
So how do you think is going?
Like, I mean, it's been it's been eight years now.
Has like have you regained some network effects?
Like has it been growing?
Is Bitcoin Cash being used in transactions like day to day type stuff?
Can you give us some insight there?
Like how are you guys succeeding?
Yeah, I mean, I do want to hear from Harvard on this actually as well.
But from my point of view, what you kind of need to see it as is like BCH has made some industry leading choices in some ways, but it's suffered immensely in others.
Like, you know, when with the BTC guys, the way I see them now is kind of a mix of almost like pity in a way.
I don't really have a lot of animosity to them because it's like when you meet somebody politically or economically, you know, who maybe is confused.
Like maybe let's say somebody who's a big like socialist or something like that.
And they don't really understand the concept of trade or the concept of, you know,
zero sum versus positive sum, these kinds of things. And so they have a lot of very strongly
held views. But from your point of view, you think, well, fundamentally, this doesn't really
add up. And how can I introduce these concepts to you in a way that you'll listen or that will
demonstrate to you without you getting
upset and frustrated and shutting off your mind, right? That's sort of what the BCH community has
been up against ever since its inception in a way, right? Ever since the chain split and even a
little earlier, right? So it's been a great education for the community. And several years
ago, the BCH community was very talked down to, you know,
it's obviously very slandered and propagandized, but because also the price went down, it was just
an easy thing for people to feel superior about an attack. So the BCH community has had to,
through that process, learn to sort of process its trauma, really, of being on the wrong side
of the split and learn some harsh lessons
about the way the world works, how power really is distributed.
And then from there, build back up a sort of positive winning attitude.
So one thing that we have got as a result of all that is a fantastic ability to be open
and collaborate with other spaces.
We've also got a number of upgrades.
You know, we have a lot of the DeFi
tooling and all this stuff either created already or in the process that the BTC guides can only
just dream about. But of course, at the same time, we have huge deficits in terms of brand
size and recognition, in terms of liquidity, in terms of on-chain traffic, all of those things
were kind of in the hole. So our focus is obviously on extending our strengths and then
trying to convert that into those other metrics that we need to. But we do have one strong factor
in our favor, which is that the BTC approach is starting to run into its own problems.
It wasn't maybe as quick as we expected, but it's definitely starting to happen. Like you can see
right now, they will already tell you they're going through their little node war or whatever.
So they're already coming to civil war and fighting amongst themselves. Whereas BCH hasn't
had any of that in five years. And that's because, you know, at the end of the day,
you can avoid reality,
but not the consequences of avoiding reality.
You know, they're realizing that they've been captured,
they've been rebranded into this digital asset.
You know, huge corporations have bought up
huge chunks of the supply.
The, you know, philosophy has all gone
and the market is just moving around them.
And so that's all things that I expect to have a massive decelerating effect on BTC,
which creates the opportunity for BCH to catch up combined with all the work we're doing.
So that's kind of how I see it.
Well, you mentioned a node war on Bitcoin.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry, Sas, if you can explain the node war on Bitcoin you're talking about.
So I asked if you can explain the node war on Bitcoin you're talking about.
Before that, I just wanted to quickly mention there's also this angle that, you know, are we in a deficit?
Yeah, absolutely.
As Jeremy said.
But there's also from if you if you zoom out and you look at the big picture.
Of course, from our perspective, due to the hijacking and so forth and these things, the adoption was just massively delayed.
And if you look, if you zoom out and look at it, really adoption of crypto is absolutely minuscule in the global context of finance, payments and so forth.
And so, yeah, in a deficit, but it's also in a deficit versus, know zero versus zero kind of kind of thing we
actually absolutely have to grow that and and we're you know we're going for the brass ring we
have to have millions uh billions of people using it or else it's not meaningful and it uh it'll
absolutely uh be captured i don't know i don't mean that in like a conspiracy way but just in that
it won't have any power it won't have any any influence if crypto isn't used by enough people.
So yeah, in a deficit, but still the target is way out there beyond anyone in crypto at the moment.
You mean deficit relative to Bitcoin, whereas you're saying the measuring stick is the deficit relative to TradFi.
That's the real measuring stick.
Yeah, to fiat, really.
Yeah, fundamentally to fiat, yes.
And yeah, that's exactly, that's the right measuring stick.
And so honestly, we don't really think,
I don't mean this in like a meme type way,
but we don't really think about BTC very much anymore.
We're just doing our thing and yeah, like I said,
going for the brass ring,
trying to make that real metric go up. Well, Bitcoin's made it clear that they're the store
of value and you guys want to be the transaction, the peer-to-peer cash, right?
Well, that's a story in itself, right? The concept of which one comes first. And when you have a means of exchange,
it ends up also being a store of value. So Bitcoin always intended to be all the things
that money is. So it's just a matter of getting there.
Okay, let's go into that. Which does come first? What do you think drives which?
I don't really subscribe to any particular religion on it. But having a religion on it is one thing and it is not another thing is just an obvious red flag for me. So there's people working on real world adoption in Bitcoin Cash. There's places like Ormok City, Tacloban, and some other places in the Philippines. There's also Townsville in Australia, where you can literally go and just
live on Bitcoin cash. So there's people who are exploring that kind of retail type adoption,
right? Like you can go to restaurants, you can go to your cell phone shop and buy shit.
So there's people who focus on that. There's people like General Protocols. We focus on
finance, DeFi, right? So you can go and there's whatever, $15 million of TVL in these contracts
called any hedge contracts. So there's people who are doing that for finance. There's Cauldron
who focuses on just trading, right? So you can get on there and do trading on chain,
on Bitcoin cash. There's people who, of course, use it as a store of value. I myself use it as
a store of value. I earn my
salary. Oh, I don't have a salary. I get paid for contracting, but I earn my salary in Bitcoin cash.
So literally all of my income is Bitcoin cash and I keep it, vast majority of it in Bitcoin cash.
So for me, it is literally a store of value. So I think it's all of those things and it's not a smart thing to hyper focus on anyone.
And that's one of the nice things about having a decentralized ecosystem like Bitcoin Cash.
It's actually a decentralized ecosystem where everybody's trying all different kinds of things to varying degrees of success.
And some of the things that you think wouldn't succeed and that's too hard,
they end up succeeding and proving you wrong. And yeah, I'd love seeing it. Just all the experimentation on all the different aspects, store value, means of exchange, and et cetera.
Yeah. I definitely have some thoughts around, you know, what ultimately wins,
but I want to kick it to Havlor if he wants to jump in and say something real quick. I know he's
been trying to speak. So go ahead, Havlor, if you wanted to add something. on Bitcoin maximalism there's a journalist in Norway
who sometimes call me
the Norway's biggest
maxi hater
but I don't hate
Bitcoin, I actually love Bitcoin
I love BTC actually
it's like a
like a child
you love and you love them no matter what
even right now they're kind of a rowdy, arrogant teenager,
misled, misguided.
We'll always love it.
It's just misguided.
And for the Maxis, it's just sad, actually.
The sad thing is that they celebrate ignorance and arrogance
and kind of
profit over everything
and this is very
counter to what the
Bitcoin white paper was
written to do actually
it's
kind of the opposite of that so
I'm so glad that we have this community in Bitcoin Cash
where we can just create stuff and build stuff
and kind of honor the legacy of Satoshi.
And DeFi was never intended in that sense to be in Bitcoin,
but we saw the value of DeFi early on and we saw that people liked it in
Ethereum it became big and and and this became kind of this new area inside of
of crypto and and right now we are we are building the same same thing even
working faster and better on using Satoshi's own language. So I'm super happy about this.
I'm really happy about the time we are in now.
Obviously, there's a lot of misguided people,
people who found Bitcoin recently, who found crypto recently,
and are kind of lured into this very kind of arrogant, ignorant kind of,
they really, really don't care about
giving a platform to people
who are
have less of means
so that they maybe don't have a bank account
and can use the power of crypto
to use digital money
without the bank
these maxi people, they are mostly
located in Europe, in America
and they celebrate ignorance.
But that's okay.
That's okay.
Over the years, they will learn to love truly decentralized things, and the paper Bitcoin will get rugged from them, and then they will learn the hard way. And for us, we see every day new people using MUSD
and transacting and having their money non-custodial.
I said this on the BCH podcast,
and it still yields almost every day.
We get people from new places on Earth that sends us messages,
tells us about how they're saving, giving money to their
family, buying, transacting just between people, using MUSD and just in just in a second. And
I'm so happy. I'm actually really happy about the state of Bitcoin Cash right now. So yeah,
Godspeed. You know what? Shame on me because I should I should have asked about because we
talked about MUSD on the last time we spoke
about potentially getting on ThorChain
so that it can be used in the various primitives,
particularly on the Rudjeran app layer side.
So if there's anyone from the Rudjeran side
who wants to come up and give an update on that,
please, you are more than welcome.
I'll try to get you guys an answer on that.
But one of the things that I've been thinking about up here
is like whenever I think about anything, any investment, any idea, any system, it doesn't matter.
I'm always thinking about the first principles.
First principles are king.
The first principles are not there.
In my experience, something fails 100% of the time.
There is a caveat to that, though, and particularly when it comes in the world of investing.
ExxonMobil comes to mind, but I'm not saying Bitcoin's Exxon Mobile necessarily,
but I'm just gonna run with it.
You know, Exxon Mobile had a valuation,
but the first principles weren't there,
but it had a valuation because the market didn't know, right?
There was a gap of knowledge in the first principles.
And then once you figure it out, you know, it goes to zero, right?
Not saying that's gonna happen to Bitcoin,
but just an example how that works.
This is where I think we're going.
We are now approaching a truly transitional time because now the technologies that we have all been building, they now have utility.
things. And this is where I think the on-ramping of the air quotes normie is going to come and
Right. They have utility. This is where the rubber meets the road. And we're actually going to start using blockchain in everyday things. And this is where I think the on ramping of the air quotes normie is going to come and evolve.
evolve. And this is where I want to bring Mocha into the conversation. Because Bitcoin Cash wants
to be a settlement layer. And in the last space we had, we talked, I brought Mocha. This is
something that you guys have been desperately thinking about how to do. And conceptually,
you guys had this in mind of what's going on. Because if you guys want to think, if you want to use Bitcoin to buy everyday goods and services,
we had Mark from Denver up in the last one.
He tried it out.
He just wanted to sell honey.
And it was during the time where the gas feesβ¦
That was me.
That was me.
Oh, I'm sorry, Havlor.
I apologize.
Yeah, no worries.
And Havlor, he wanted to sell honey.
And he just had demonstrated a point, and it just would not work.
It was something like $50 for the gas transaction.
No, it was almost $400 for the transaction fee.
The honey was $50.
Yes, right.
I've messed that all up.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
So I'm going to bring in Mocha.
Go ahead, Mocha.
Go ahead and take your mic.
Because they're very interested in maybe doing something like a campaign with bch to get the
ball rolling on that so uh go ahead and check your uh mike mocha hey guys gm just checking if the
mic is okay all good man go for it perfect thanks for having us yeah Yeah. I mean, you know, one thing, so since we spoke in that space with the Bitcoin Cash gang, we did a lot more research on everything, you know, the Bitcoin Cash TV, a couple of, Nurain from Nigeria, like they have been giving us a lot of intel on how to actually perform
a good go-to-market with Mocha pushing Bitcoin Cash.
Because the book, Hijacking Bitcoin, all of this, it points to the direction where there's
big players right now pushing the crypto payments infra as as the future and
we actually saw this more than a year ago and when we saw what bitcoin cash is actually trying to
achieve and how it preserves the ethos of the original bitcoin we said this is this has to be
one of our verticals so we're going to be be pushing Bitcoin Cash in Africa and in Southeast Asia.
Why?
Because that's where most of the well, you could call it adoption, like the
big framing adoption and not just, you know, the fringe or the investment part of things happen.
So we're very, very happy to, you know, create synergy here.
And also, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this,
so I'm just going to go ahead.
I'd rather just ask for forgiveness,
but we're going to be in the Bitcoin Cash TV podcast
around the week of our launch, probably a week later.
So, yeah, we're just really looking forward to see how we can push,
you know, the ThorChain infrastructure deserves to be used not only for, I mean, swaps and liquidity pools and all of that are great, but we need to push this to the real world utility.
So that's what we're trying to do to create synergy between the ThorChain infra and the Bitcoin Cash, you know, they will use that has that potential, you know?
Right, right.
This is what I'm talking about.
So all the speakers up here,
what are the things that we have been talking about?
Well, we're behind in brand recognition.
We're behind in blockchain utility.
We're behind in this.
We're behind in that.
But this is where the rubber meets the road.
This is where things are actually going to be used. And then this is where the first principles that either give you a big,
fat, wet kiss or they bite you in the ass. Right. This is where can you actually be a settlement
layer? Are you fast enough? Is it work? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is where I'm so excited,
guys, because if anyone's out there listening, if you hold Bitcoin Cash, if you swap on ThorChain, again, this is real layer one activity.
This is the real deal.
All the swaps exist on your native blockchain.
So this is increased activity.
So this is just to say, do not swap your BCH on a centralized exchange.
Please use ThorChain or other DeFi rails so you guys can get the credit.
Because exchanging IOUs does not give the credit,
and does not look like it's adoption, right?
So as Mocha, which is going to go live very soon,
I don't want to get ahead of their announcement,
but, right, this is where this stuff is going to start being used.
We are in the very, very beginning of this, right?
And all the swaps that happen when it comes to, like, Bitcoin Cash,
say Mocha, like, that's just revenue for ThorChain.
This is where we need to go, guys.
So exciting.
Go ahead, Eric.
Yeah, and you know, the most important thing when it comes to crypto payments,
in my opinion, is that you not only want people to start paying with Bitcoin Cash
and then just let the protocol behind do an off-ramp and the
business receives fiat. Because yes, it kind of signals some sort of adoption, but it's not the
whole adoption that we're looking to create. We want to allow people to pay with Bitcoin cash
and the business to see the value of receiving Bitcoin cash and actually keeping those tokens,
thus creating some sort of circular economies
where then people, then those businesses can pay their employees
with Bitcoin cash.
And those employees can go buy on the next door store
their groceries with Bitcoin cash.
And thus you're creating this loop
where there's no need to go to fiat.
And don't get me wrong.
The solutions that we have right now are incredible
because you're allowing crypto native people
to pay with their crypto without having to go through loops.
And then the business receives fiat
because that's what they're used to.
But I do think, and this is what we're building for the past year and a half,
that the future is going to be buying crypto, settling crypto,
not just buying crypto and settling fiat.
And that's exactly why we're so excited to work alongside with the BCH crew
because they have that same mentality.
They don't want to just allow their community to pay with their token.
They want to create this long-term value and, you know,
hand rotation of the tokens without them pushing the market down or up,
whatever, just, you know, the extended value of just changing hands.
Eric, can I add to to that there is a business that
came in a cask it's a whiskey bar and uh one of the guys in one of the meetups orange pilled him
and got him to convince him to start accepting bitcoin and um and so the owner is doing it and
he's he's just using his way to dca so he's not even selling into cash. He's just accumulating Bitcoin.
So that could be another pitch for you guys when you go to these businesses.
Like, hey, this is just a way for you to accumulate crypto and build up a position.
So turn them into hodlers.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And this is so strong because we can just say, okay, so let's just aim for 5% of your sales to be in crypto.
So you're not aiming for 100% right now.
Just look at that 5%.
Just cross it on your accounting books as something that you're not going to touch.
So instead of saving in fiat, you save in crypto.
So yeah, that's a great approach.
Thanks, Kenton.
I did saw your post about probably like two, three weeks ago.
That was amazing.
You know, just doing like the 2014 kind of evangelization
where you just go somewhere and tell them,
hey, you should start doing this.
And they actually did. Bitcoin Cash, cash guys what do you call it we said orange what do you call if you
bitcoin cash pill somebody what do you call that green pill i don't know you just unplug them
just wake them up basically we don't really have like a specific uh term for it but i mean i think
the whole matrix uh analogy and everything is just so
amazing because it's so funny that the BTC because firstly those matrix uh memes were around before
you know the split so the BCH community also has some affinity uh to that of course but it's very
ironic because or some of us were the ones that created those memes some of those yeah
yeah so it's like you know they think oh we've found the truth in bdc and we've escaped this uh
fiat system but really it's just another layer of the matrix now you know and then slowly unplugging
them to understand wait it was hijacked it was taken over they just created like a Potemkin village you know the whole BTC thing
it's like welcome to crypto you know etc be free cypherpunk etc but then it's all captured and you
can actually see that if you just look on social media as they year after year they slowly wake up
like one by one they start to think wait a second what's happening here like why is Michael Saylor
now saying we don't need to
upset the banks? I thought we were here to upset the banks. And they have those kind of moments. So
we are always trying to sort of nudge them in the right direction. But just it's the exactly the
same as the matrix, like you cannot force anybody to wake up, they have to already be ready for it.
And then when they are ready for it, or when they are struggling and frustrated, that's when you have to be there to give them some fresh information. And they're
probably going to have a pretty hard time, you know, swallowing the pill the first time, right?
Like, there's nothing like that saying, what is it? It's easier to convince a man that he like,
it's easy to fool a man than convince him he has been fooled. You know, people think, oh, BTC,
I've escaped. I know that fiat is nonsense. And then you say to them, no, no, no, no, BTC has been
totally corrupted. That is such a hard sell. But once somebody finally like clicks and wakes up
and they get it, they look into BCA, they see all the stuff that's going on, they read up on the
history, they rethink all the nonsense that they were told and how many people lied to them,
you know, then they never go back.
Basically, it's sort of a one way journey in that sense.
So I'm optimistic, but it takes time.
Yeah.
I wanted to mention something about this idea you guys were talking about.
It was Mocha and I'm sorry, I don't know who it was who was saying it, but the idea that
businesses can just think of it as receiving
crypto and not necessarily having this requirement that I need to switch to fiat when I receive
crypto.
VCH actually has many years of experience with this setup.
Like I said, several cities where there's literally a city where you can live on BCH. And that is exactly what happens is that
the businesses who understand and are interested in it, they understand and they are interested in
it. And they don't have a huge need to convert this small percentage currently, right? The
currently what's a small percentage of their sales to fiat, that's not a huge issue for them.
When they understand and they're interested, they are interested and so they want to receive the
crypto and they're actually interested in that. So that has been a repeated result of experimentation
is that the merchants, and we're talking about retail here mostly right retail merchants who receive
in our case bch payments they just keep the bch that's what they want to use and when you're in a location that there is some level of network effect they can also spend their bch with other
people in their city who use it so yeah they're with those type of merchants, they don't have an urgent
desire to just switch over to fiat. However, I did have a question. One of the issues that
absolutely does repel mom and pop, small, medium type businesses from accepting crypto
is tax issues. So I'm interested to hear from Mocha
if you are providing some kind of support
for tax related issues or something like that.
What is it?
How do you guys see that angle of it?
Yeah, so I actually have a question for you
about the Bitcoin cash status,
but I'll ask when I finish this.
But you know, the whole cash cities but i'll i'll ask when i finish this but you know that
the whole point of crypto is not well in our opinion is that it's not to bypass hey eric
eric your microphone's a little bad um maybe try to clean it up a little bit yeah okay how's it now
how is it now better better okay yeah so uh crypto in like when you talk about cricket
when you talk about crypto you're not trying to to to sell it like crypto payments you're
not trying to sell it as a way to bypass the system just as an alternative to uh to to settle
sales without having to go to fiat
if you don't want to.
But that doesn't mean that we want to enable people
to not pay their taxes, et cetera.
So, I mean, people will be able to do whatever they want,
just like they can do right now with fiat.
They can just choose to try to bypass the system or not.
So if people are bad players,
they will do so with any kind of payment system, right?
So what we're doing is we're providing the tools through an accounting system that we're going to have within the app where they can just track every sale they have done, how much was revenue, how much was margin, etc., etc.
And then it's up to them to report whatever they want to report to,
whoever they want to report.
We will provide the tools.
It's like any other system that allows you to process payments.
Although we are not a processor, we're just an enabler
because we don't really touch any of the funds.
We just enable the person to pay through Torchain Rails
and the business to receive through Torchain Rails.
And we give them the tools to report whatever they want.
And regard...
Go ahead, go ahead.
Oh, no, no, no. Sorry.
I was just, yeah, just in the script.
Yeah.
So, but regarding the Bitcoin Cash Cities, I was wondering what was your or what is the sales pitch or what's the value when people ask, okay, yeah, but this is kind of volatile.
So how am I going to use this if it might be, I don't know percent uh more expensive uh in a couple of days so I
know that crypto that's that's the nature of crypto especially being so so early but there's
gotta be some some argument that you guys can use or that you guys are using right now you just use
MSD you just use our decentralized stablecoin okay yeah well yeah use the MSD that's that's Sir, decentralized table coin. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, use the MSD. That's that's one answer.
But the direct answer to your question of what they have found, and I'm not one of the people doing this retail local adoption.
So I'm speaking for them.
So I may not be correct here, but everything I've learned is that it's exactly what I said, which is the ones who get interested in receiving payments,
they have some level of interest in these things. And this is one of those things where you have to
kind of pull back your cynicism a little bit and say, while people as groups are often,
you know, often do pretty dumb things, people can also be very intelligent. And individuals running small businesses
are often relatively intelligent people.
And they get it, they understand that there's a point
to wait a minute, this fiat thing is not great.
Going to my bank and having them ask me,
what do you intend to use this money for?
Is not actually a reasonable thing to happen.
And, oh, you cannot withdraw more than this amount of money money for is not actually a reasonable thing to happen.
And you know, oh, you cannot withdraw more than this amount of money is not a reasonable
thing to happen.
And so they get it.
They understand that there's benefits to this system where it's fully in their control.
And so, yeah, I think the answer is that people are smarter than you think, especially small
business owners, and they actually have an interest in this alternative
system and um you know immediately converting to fiat it doesn't doesn't meet that interest at all
i just want to jump in on this which is like emergent i'm not directly involved
with this but i've talked to guys in yeah in all the different places that are doing this and one
thing they found highly effective which you might want to try, is they get people
objecting about volatility or saying, you know, they're worried and they're stressed
about it.
And the objection there is mostly about their like stress and their anxiety, right?
So the solution that often is very effective is that somebody says, OK, well, crypto is
really volatile.
It could be worth,
you know, 10% less next month. And what they do, for instance, with paytaker is they say, okay,
yes, we understand that. And we know that of course, crypto can be very volatile. So we will offer to buy your VCH at the price that you received it up to, I think they do maybe 30 days after you received it. So if you
receive it at $500 and then later it drops to 450, but you've received, you know, like $10 that is
now $8 or whatever, then we will buy it off you at that $10 rate 30 days later. So they give them
a completely like free slather option to have their downside protected
for that short window. And what they've found is that then that reassures people because then they
think, well, now I can't lose. If it goes down, I'll cash it out. And if it goes up, well, then
I'm already winning. But what happens, it's the same as like how companies offer, you know,
if a 30 day warranty or something like that.
Once you've got somebody over that hump, then they receive the crypto.
Then even if the crypto goes down, they're not instantly rushing to cash it out because they know they have that option.
They feel safe with it and they think, you know what, let me just let this play out a little bit.
I've seen it goes up. I've seen it goes down. Right. It's at that moment of talking to them initially when they're most stressed and there's you know a thousand other things they're worried about
with uh integrating crypto but then when they have the time to sit down and think about it in
hindsight they realize oh you know this is the first crypto payment i've ever received it's only
five or ten dollars it's not the biggest deal and uh so that's maybe something you can look into. Then what they do in Townsville
is similar to that, where they also offer sort of an underwriting service. So what they do is
they find local people who are Bitcoin cashers who are interested in buying BCH. They want to
swap the other way. They want to swap fiat into BCH and they connect those people up to the merchants so then the merchant
sees okay firstly there is demand for this bch you know even just putting a friendly face on it can
make a very big difference and then secondly they also have that backstop like oh okay if i want to
swap this back into fiat i have someone right here who's excited and who will make the trade
the other way and if the price is going down make the trade the other way. And if the
price is going down, that's when the other person wants to buy actually. So it works out quite
nicely, but it also gives them, yeah, just building reassurance and confidence is the biggest part of
it, not actually the details of the volatility itself. It's the fear and the stress and the
uncertainty that comes with it that you need and the stress and the uncertainty uh that comes
with it that you need to address more than the actual fact that crypto goes up and down everyone
logically understands that yeah I confirm all of that that's that's the same thing that I've
I've learned from observing and talking to those guys exactly we're at the top of the hour guys
um I'll let you go in a second sorry I'm at the top of our hour, guys. Oh, I'll let you go in a second, Ken. Sorry. I'm at the top of the hour, guys.
Please share the space.
This is a banger conversation, okay?
I see a lot of new friendly faces in the audience.
Please follow all the speakers.
And on the Thorchain side, please follow these great people up here.
They're absolutely wonderful.
I'm going to kick it to Dr. Kenton, although I want to say, Dr. Flex,
I think you had your hand raised at one point.
I'll try and get to you soon, but go ahead, Kenton.
Let him go first.
Okay, Dr. Flex, do you have something you want to add?
Sometimes it glitches.
I'm sorry, so I'm unsure if you were trying to speak.
Okay.
Okay, you might have some mic issues there.
Go ahead, Kenton.
I wanted to kind of chat about, kind of expand on this, people accepting crypto's payments.
So I'm sure you guys are familiar with Gresham's Law, like good money drives out bad.
So like, you know, when silver coins in the US, like quarters and dimes, when they, you know, back in the 60s, when they stopped being 90% silver and moved over to whatever it was, zinc or tin or whatever, people started hoarding
the real silver coins, right? They didn't want to spend them. And in my mind, this is what's
happening with crypto is that, yeah, we can spend it. The technology is there, but people don't
want to spend it. They want to hoard it because like a store of value, right? It's going up in value, right?
They'd rather spend their dollars and get rid of them.
And, you know, it's something,
I'll get this criticism from normies all the time.
I think, well, I don't believe in crypto
because like you can't buy anything with it.
And it's like, well,
the people don't necessarily want to spend it.
They just, they want to hoard it.
And so, you know know i keep thinking about you
know how does what flips the script you know why what's going to change to have people start
actually wanting to spend their crypto and um what i conclude with is it's going to come down to
people are going to have to spend it because uh merchants are gonna demand crypto and nothing else and um you know some people have
no choice but to spend their crypto and so i keep thinking okay well what's going to force merchants
to only demand crypto and not fiat and so i keep you know i'm going down this rabbit hole stuff and
so i want to present you guys with a theory see what you guys think. But if you think about the U.S. dollar, you know, back in the 70s when we were off the gold standard,
the U.S. went to Saudi Arabia and convinced them to accept only dollars for oil.
And that created a de facto demand for dollars and kind of forced the rest of the world on to, you know, use dollars to buy oil, right?
And so the dollar has been on like a petrol,
we've had a petrol dollar for 50 years. Hussein Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Iraq was invaded because he wanted to sell oil outside the dollar, right? Gaddafi was talking about the same thing and
creating a North African currency to sell oil outside the dollar.
And he was killed. So, you know, there's a huge like, you know, Orwellian big brother push to keep oil price in dollars, basically, and to create to maintain the demand for dollars.
And so I'm thinking, okay, we need something big like that, like Saudi Arabia of oil to demand payment in only crypto and nothing else.
And what's it going to be?
And I keep wondering if it's the unbanked that the whole point of crypto, or half the point, a part of it was to bring six billion people into our
financial system right we can all be on the same system and i keep thinking like well if fiat
currencies are going to be inflating you know throughout the world you know people want to
store value and you know wonder if it's going to be crypto and the world's unbanked, this huge labor market, is only going to demand payment for their labor in crypto.
And we're all going to have to have crypto to pay for this labor.
And then that's what's going to basically force us onto a crypto standard.
Curious what you guys think about that.
Do you have other ideas?
Where is this demand to get paid in crypto?
Where is it going to come from?'s what's going to get it going yeah so one of the things that i think
is really interesting is this this argument is a common one that people make and from my perspective
it's a little bit of a myth because actually when your price of your crypto you know you sort of quote unquote make
money when the value goes up people actually tend to spend more not spend less even with the most
hardcore laser eye type of guys you can see them they make posts every so often like oh i've made
like 5x gains on my crypto like i sold a little bit of it to you know buy a new house or buy
a new car or buy a present for my wife after all the value of money is to spend it and live with
it right if you you can't take it with you right if you die with it there was no point to hoarding
up all your btc and that's been vindicated you know by the early days of uh bitcoin you know
the price was just exploding at
levels that even now like the btc price gains don't match that and people spent bitcoin more
the more money they made so the argument often goes like this if you need to debunk someone from
this mentality of people would just want to hoard it and they never want to spend it you say okay
so your plan is to hoard your bitcoin because it's Gresham's law
and it's the more sound money, right? And they say, yes. And you say, okay, so if you believe
in it so much, is all your money in crypto? And they'll probably say, no, they still have some
fiat currency. And you say, okay, so why haven't you put all of your money into it if it's so much
more sound and it's so much better? And they're going to have a hard time answering you with that.
And then you say, okay, so theoretically, if you did have all of your money in crypto, but you don't want to spend it because you want to hoard it and it's going to be more valuable
in the future, how are you going to pay your rent? How are you going to eat? Or are you just
going to starve to death? And then they have to think, okay, so firstly, if I believed in this
so much, I would have all my money in crypto.
And then secondly, once I was in that position, I would have no option to spend it because
even though you might have a longer, what's it called? A lower time preference for having your
money in a deflationary asset, you still have a time value to money. The window is shifted,
but it still exists. You still need to eat right now. You still need to pay your rent right now.
Maybe you don't need to buy your fifth TV right now,
but maybe you want to buy your first TV right now.
You know, mobile phones are deflationary and people buy them all the time.
So it's a kind of a bit of a myth that people will just hoard
all their money in crypto and never spend it.
But the best way actually uh is coming full circle
like you said is how do you drive people to start that cycle the best thing you can do is get them
to earn cryptocurrency because then that flips the uh that flips the switch the other way around
right they're not getting fiat converting it into crypto and then thinking I need to hoard my crypto and spend my crappy fiat.
If they are earning in crypto, then they say, OK, there's an economy here and this is going well for me.
I need to find a way to spend this because I need to actually turn this into something useful for me.
So that's always what I like. For instance, many of the people on this call are earning BCHs their income.
The only option is
to spend it right otherwise we couldn't eat so when people have those kind of objections i always say
to them like so if you believe so much in your uh this uh gresham's law do you ask your employer to
pay you in bitcoin why would you want them to pay you in fiat currency if it's such terrible money
don't you want to be paid in Bitcoin?
And then they just think, oh, yes.
And then if they get that, if they work through that, they start getting paid in Bitcoin.
Well, the problem is solved right there.
Sooner or later, they're going to have to spend it.
If all their income is in Bitcoin and their expenses are in fiat, they end up in the situation, I said, where all their money is in crypto and then it's going to get spent.
And I live that every day, right?
Because I literally earn every bit of my income in Bitcoin cash.
And I spend most of it in Bitcoin cash.
Well, yeah, I don't spend.
I try to save also.
But the spending that I do, I try to do as much as I can in Bitcoin cash.
I wanted to say I completely agree on the first point that Jeremy made about Gresham's Law and all that.
But the second part about income and those issues, I have a different take, which is, I think, a direct answer to yours.
Kenton, I think it was an incredibly nerdy thing.
Absolutely nobody used it.
And you may think today, like, what do you mean?
It's still an incredibly nerdy thing.
No, it's absolutely not.
It's huge business.
Linux is huge business.
And where did that come from?
It came from a place that none of the nerds, you know, in their case, like technology programming
nerds, in our case, like money nerds who try to understand finance and money and how all this
stuff works. It came from a place that none of them really expected. They were all trying to
get Linux on the desktop, get users to use Linux, get the average user, the equivalent of retail to use Linux on the desktop. And that never happened.
But what did happen was this new market called servers appeared, right? That didn't exist at
one point, right? And this new thing called servers appeared and Linux fucking killed it
in that market. They had competition, but in the end, they just fucking killed that market.
And none of the nerds really predicted that, but that was the killer app.
And what will be, I think the direct answer to your question, the killer app for crypto.
If anybody says they absolutely know the answer, I don't believe them because it hasn't happened yet, right?
So where it's going to come from, I don't think anybody can predict.
And this is one of the things that I love about a decentralized ecosystem like Bitcoin Cash is that there's a lot of people trying a lot of things. online payments, in-person payments, physical NFC card payments, DeFi, finance, everything,
loans, MUSD, of course, exchanges, everything you can think of, people are trying it.
And yeah, somebody will find it eventually, like that killer app or the handful of killer
apps that really take off.
And just looking forward to that.
But yeah, I don't think anybody has the exact answer yet is I think the answer to it
and the discovery process is still going on.
Yeah, I think that's a fair statement.
It's going to be interesting what happens.
We have a new speaker, you guys, New Reign.
You have your hand up.
Go ahead, test your mic.
Hi, everyone.
So I hope you guys are doing good.
Yeah, so I hope I'm audible, right?
Yeah, go ahead.
You're good to go.
Yeah, yeah, so good.
So I guess I'm going to just jump right in with Imogen's take on the last
because I think i share
same idea with him so basically i feel like we we don't need but remittances will happen and
adoption will happen right when people keep building and of course we don't need uh a lot
of a lot of things will work i feel like crypto doesn't need one let's say specific uh
way let's say uh okay let's say a country or or or a platform or big platform i think people need to
build several things because of course we know let's say now money works differently right the
fiat has a lot of channels in which people do businesses same thing i look at when it comes
to crypto right
uh people just need to keep building amazing stuff and what's happening to be honest is
people are not much building utilities to be honest that's the truth right if you look at
all those projects claiming out there to be in crypto to be around crypto people are just building
projects mini projects within their ecosystem not actually linking it directly with real world
utilities right but that's what on the other side i love about this side of whole bitcoin
cash thing we we keep fighting for we are trying to see how we can link real world you know real
world application on a daily basis with bitcoin cash basically does it i feel like that's how
we're going to push more adoption and more users of crypto because we're going out there okay now let's say today
i woke up and i want to buy i want to buy a domain with bch basically i know that namecheap
as a bch there's a payment gateway somewhere somehow connected i just need my bch from my
wallet to get a domain today i woke up i need to buy mobile data airtime i need to maybe
pay for pay for some services i know that mocha is doing something amazing immediately i use my
crypto on mocha or something like that to pay to make payment right so i feel like people need to
step up and see how can you connect okay now today i need to play games i need that straightforward
bch games has amazing i can use my bch and play games on that you know i need to do
long shot in bch bull i need to buy something on some website big degree i feel like all these
small small applications this is how the ecosystem grows this is how you build those utilities you
don't we don't need one killer app i don't think so we need a lot of applications that will connect
real life
utilities right with crypto and that's what we're doing right on bch side of things
i totally agree with that yeah so but then if you look at the whole the whole narrative right let's
say now let me give you example of course there is need for that right let's say in nigeria now
the crypto is already taking off right if you look at okay the ecosystem let me give you there's a
need for payments okay people are working for other people outside the country let's say now
we have a lot of technical talents in the country coming up as a developing country people get
hired but then when it comes to payment do you know what's the best option the best option is
crypto people go for crypto people go for stable coins that's the best option because currently now for you to get a foreign bank account let's say a usd account that's another level of craziness but then
imagine in crypto easy peasy in less than few minutes you set up a usd account you know you
send it to your employee you get paid in us stable coins or stuff like that you know amazing so if
you look at all this all these
options right people are building utilities around that people are building let's currently
nigeria i can't i can't use a foreign card to buy something abroad on amazon or something it's
not working you understand i have to find a way to see i use stable coins or use a virtual usd card
so what part of from some of the solutions we are also building something
like that where you can use crypto top up some virtual cards and buy something so you see the
market is huge so i mean i'm talking about this even remittance across africa you can't do that
it's not it's not easily it's not feasible right you just have to use crypto so these are some of
the solutions that if you look at if you look inwards you find out that okay only crypto can
solve these solutions.
And then that's why we need people to just keep building.
So to be honest, just a few weeks ago, I was out, currently I'm even on travels, right?
But if you see the level of people are building solutions on a daily basis,
I think all you need to do is, okay, find a way.
How can we plug in this?
How can we support you guys more?
Okay, what are you guys building? I'm building this for this. I'm building this for crypto. Okay, wait. So, okay, find a way. How can we plug in this? How can we support you guys more? Okay, what are you guys building?
I'm building this for this.
I'm building this for crypto.
Okay, wait.
So, okay, the users are there.
The people are there.
The demands are there.
Then, okay, how can we support you guys more?
How can you onboard VCH to your applications?
How can we push more adoption?
Do you understand?
How can we push it with more people?
I feel like people need to just start thinking,
we can do this if we can come collectively right
okay what problems do we need okay now let's say let's give people let's give people access to
maybe uh play more games buy more games buy something online you understand with crypto
buy gift cards all those things if there are easy processes to do this i feel like people
will leave the fear system and jump on crypto because it's much more easier and then without permission so that's it well the thing to what you're saying is i i agree and
you know you're talking about mocha like so why let's just be clear about this why why would a
normie go to crypto why would a norma use mocha right it's because it's cheaper it's cheaper
right like think of visa mastercard or whatever credit card company you use, right? 150, 200, 300, 600 basis points. Sometimes it's really severe.
It all depends on the volume you generate, your locality, things like that. That's margin that
the business loses, right? And so any business that has a customer that is willing to pay in
crypto, they can charge a premium price for the products or goods or services that they sell.
This is a perfect on-ramp. It's clear economics to on-ramp lots of people. And I'm
telling you, Naren, in your locality, it sounds like a lot of people use crypto. You need to
follow Mocha because you can start on-ramping people onto Mocha and businesses, and you will
get a fee share of on-ramping everyone in there. You could make a lot of money man you and i'm not
trying to like overhype it or sell you something serious but it's no no no i've ever like mea
mea boca already that's right we're looking at for me yeah for for for me we're looking at anywhere
anywhere we can push more adoption you understand more bitcoin cash adoption more more crypto
adoption we're very very welcome that's what we do. That's what we've been doing, right?
So I feel like in this sense, it's, they're already, we're just ready.
Okay, let's see what the platform looks like online, do you understand?
And then we are all ready to support it.
Because definitely with stuff like this, that gives people more access, do you understand,
to use their crypto easily.
And people need just, let's say for businesses most of them their complaint is okay
we don't have like a structured pure system okay we have petaka we have mocha is doing the same
right mocha can give you access to that so that's that's it so that's why we keep encouraging
builders i feel like we don't need one killer app but then keep building just find a solution that
you are trying to solve and build it people are there of course
people are waking up to the reality okay of course we need crypto you understand and you and you don't
you don't see that probably from the western from the other side of country but then from the
developing side of countries right this is a necessity because people need this to survive
do you understand a lot of now freelancers, people have skills.
They work freelancers.
They work with companies.
They can't own banks.
Do you understand?
A lot of unbanked people, they depend on crypto 247.
So you see, these apps are a necessity for them.
So now if you look at the numbers, and the numbers don't lie, to be honest.
For most of these apps, all of them are profitable, right?
All you need to do is build and come to that ecosystem.
Definitely, if it's a business, you'll'll be in profit because this is what people need already if you go through the other out you know trying to get things from the government
will get normal fear it's crazy man the inflation there is crazy and it doesn't work to be honest
that's it so that's it yeah i and i always love thank you this is a really appreciate your
contribution to this conversation you're right and I always love when people come and because,
you know, every country I think is suffering to some degree, but I love it when people come and
they have real world experience of just like with a really terrible currency and a really oppressive
government, and then they can see the light. So thank you so much for that. I want to kick it
back here to the other speakers.
Is there anything here that we think we've missed
or anything you want to update us on?
I'll kick it to a Bitcoin Cash podcast.
Is there anything else you want to touch on?
Any message out for me at ThorChain?
I know we didn't really talk much about Regera
and all the possibilities,
you know, perps, money, money markets,
lending, all that stuff.
Oh, actually,
Dr. Flex, I just saw your hand. I'm going to kick it to you. You haven't spoken a long time. Go for it.
Yeah, I've just been listening and the amazing speaker said a lot. So I actually wanted to the torch inside but before then you know the question of utility and then
adoption you know the one thing one thing we lack is that proper education
to you know people people people from this, I'm saying from this side of the country, you know, from this side of the world, sorry.
People are not much more aware of what is happening.
People are suffering. back in 2020 2021 2020 I think that was during corona that was my first experience
with with crypto so I'm going to say I came in late but then what did I need
at that point you know what happened was everybody was isolated everybody was just kept in the box you know just locked up and i was i was
i think i needed a laptop i needed to get the laptop and then i cannot go out that was what
made me discover crypto actually but then i'm not going to say unfortunately but fortunately for me i found bitcoin then first
and then realized okay i can i can trade with this thing i can actually buy something with this
and i did that but then with time with with the shitty currency we have here
with with the shit currency we have here buying and selling with that kind of
coin was a hassle for me because I cannot pay for fee I cannot pay for there
are a lot of there were a lot of obstacles then like getting getting
coin itself buying it finding a person that accepts that it was it was a very
very big obstacle for me back then then I started dipping into history and I
realized Bitcoin cash on the way which gave me much power you know options to
go into and then yeah there were a little bit of community around
those people in Nigeria then the way of Bitcoin cash so we kind of formed a group
you know to try and spread that awareness outside one thing I'm going to
tell you is people are not people are not properly educated. And then people are not onboarded the right way into crypto.
You know, in this side of the world, people just see that, people don't really see crypto as that means of exchange.
People see it as where to make profit, where to just throw in money and then get it with that and
then back to the fiat system again which is actually wrong so what we try to do is yeah
you know educating people educating people but it's not happening because
the the number of the number of people that are actually preaching the word out
i don't mean if the word out in this case is the real utility case of crypto are not there
much of the influence is there for people that just want to play around people that just want
you know influence i know yeah let's say freelancers now in nigeria they they get they
get so distracted with with shitty projects projects that would just come with no real
utility and then this project pump money into the young minds that are willing to do that change
you know distracting the whole system so what is happening is there is
no proper education from I think for people that want to really utility for
people that really want to see the adoption happening it is a collective
effort to see that yes real projects that will ask without would promote you
know the adoption of crypto i'm not saying
bitcoin cash in this sense i want crypto let's talk in crypto that will promote that real
adoption of crypto they are not there people only they tend to give fun you know i i i can
there's this chain that of recent was popular in the nigerian community all they do is
there is just you know fun games not even not even a real gamifying experience they just want to get
massive users you know traction on their chain and without really telling people what is happening
what what is this is i think i, is it the Tone ecosystem,
something like that?
Oh, yeah.
Like, that is shit
what they are doing there.
They are not really,
but they put a ton of money
into promoting such kind of project,
not real world project
that will create impact.
You know,
and that's a big obstacle
for adoptions here in this part of the world so i
think more education more more more of you know people coming in to preach what is really happening
and then opening minds to broader topics that is happening around the world would easily do that.
So my question now, as someone coordinating the Torch and BCH communication,
I think my question to the Torch and thing is,
what do you think is really needed right now for integrating the cash um the the cash token into the torch in because our
community is really hyped about this and then i i personally took it upon me to to you know keep
them updated and then stay in touch with both teams to to see how we can facilitate that so
talking on the collaboration side, we want
to really know what it would take from the BCH side to get BCH and the first cash token
into the TorChain.
Well, make sure I understand correctly. BCH is obviously currently supported. I think
you're talking about MUSD. I don't think there's a developer up here um but i will give you anyone the resources because i i think the the it's clear we want to
have the stable coin available um for you guys absolutely to be used as a settlement layer 100
and to answer your other question it's like how do you educate what's utility the word is utility
i 100 am convinced if we have clear utility like Mocha,
where you can buy goods and services for cheaper than the current system that we use,
this fixes itself because there's a clear economic incentive.
It just draws you in, right?
If you're saving money, it is the clearest and easiest selling point.
And then, of course, when you have ability for people who promote Mocha to make money,
that's how you do it.
This is the point where utility is happening in the technologies that we spent so long building.
So, yeah, Dr. Flex, I definitely want to get MUSD added.
Havlo, I think you were going to speak, or I don't know if Kent did.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
So on the plans to implement MUSD or make Torchain MUST compatible, we have put
down a team of 40 people.
We at Riftenlabs, who issues and have created the Moria protocol, we have committed to doing
this and pushing forward with this and
The only thing is we have been
Trained in with it's just so much work. So these days have been so intense so much stuff happening
so we just haven't gotten to putting a developer on it full-time yet, but but this will happen and we have
committed to this in indirect comes with
With the ruin people so uh this is definitely
definitely my ears and guys when it comes to education spreading the word what is adr 21
you know like this is where all of us work together we built it and now we have the technology where
it has utility it's the time this is the time to go this is where we go this is where we go
balls out and we show the world what
we built the bch boys you know they guys have been building they have a wonderful blockchain
right it's quick it's fast they want to be a settlement layer they're eager we're eager this
is where these important relationships are being made these are the connections that change the
world so we are doing this thing and i want everyone in nigeria or whoever to be able to
transact with blockchain that's the way it's going to be able to transact with blockchain.
That's the way it's going to be.
And that is exactly what we're going to do.
Don't confuse it, guys.
We are on this path and we're going to get it done.
Kenton, were you trying to say something?
I'll kick it to you.
Yeah, I was just kind of maybe trying to answer this question about education, you know, explain stuff to people.
So it's tough because there's no such thing as teaching,
only learning, right?
You can't teach somebody something that they don't want to learn.
And so, you know, that's the trait of an excellent teacher.
I don't know if you guys have heard like John Taylor Gatto.
He's written some books.
He's ranked one of the best teachers in American history. And his success was just trying to find ways to get people interested, get kids interested in learning, open their minds. And then it's just like a sponge and it'll take anything in.
change, get people to learn. We have to find a way to make them interested, right? And I'm not
saying it's easy, but it's tough. We're talking about Bitcoin Max. They've had about 10 years
of propaganda and it's really hard to break through that. And I think, I forget who said
it earlier, but they hit the nail on the head. Bitcoin Maxies celebrate arrogance and ignorance.
the nail on the head like bitcoin maxis celebrate arrogance and ignorance and it's you know if
somebody's like proud of their arrogance and ignorance it's extremely difficult to break
through that now if you go to people outside of crypto they're fiat maximalists they've had a
hundred years of propaganda um making them so and you know it's a lot to break down. But I don't think it's going to take like a
hundred years of effort to do it. I think the fiat system breaking down on its own is going to push
people into crypto. It's going to open people's minds like, hey, what's going on? You know, I need
to protect myself. I need to get out of this. And like that, to me, that is one good thing with the Bitcoin price and crypto doing well, is that's great marketing for the sector, because we're going to get the fiat maximalists coming in trying to make money.
And their ability to make fiat is a Trojan horse for freedom.
And because if they really want to start digging into it, understanding it, they're going to start learning about the technology.
But it is a battle.
It is hard.
Like, talk to gold bugs.
You know, gold bugs have been around for 50 years.
You know, they've been fighting with their families and neighbors and, you know, everyone in the media about fiat money for five decades now.
And, you know, they've been regaled as, you know, crazy nut jobs,
you know, gold is a religion, you know, you know, it's not easy, you know, it's definitely,
it's a battle. So, you know, we just have to keep fighting the good fight. And, but I think we're
winning. I think, you know, we are turning the corner and especially in our lifetimes,
I think we're going to see some change but um maybe not
the answer you wanted to hear but uh you know hopefully that helps yeah or maybe somebody
disagrees what do you guys think no i agree well i i mean my take on education which i'm always
talking about in the bch community is you have to think counterintuitively, right?
If you go and tell somebody 30 times about Bitcoin Cash, they're not going to give a
shit.
They're not interested.
They've got a hundred other problems.
They don't want to hear it.
They don't want to talk to you.
You are wasting your breath.
Don't do that.
The number one thing you can do to get people, get people interested in BCH and the same
philosophy can apply to thought chain, or it can apply to cryptocurrency or anything in life,
is to go and firstly, talk to the people who already care about it. Because if you are talking
to somebody else who cares about it, well, you're going to go get along great, you're going to start
a collaboration, and there's going to be interest, excitement, there's going to be economic activity,
and people hate missing out. They absolutely hate it. The worst thing in the world is somebody says
to you, oh, do you know about Bitcoin Cash? And you say, no, I don't care about that. And then
the person turns around and talks to somebody else, and then suddenly those two people are
having a great time, and you're standing there like, what am I even doing? So that's kind of
the strategy is you need to focus your community
inward and then it grows at the edges because people are drawn to that energy and excitement
so that's kind of the way you want to do it and that's the way you know that I think Thorchain
VCH everything like for instance what are we doing here having this space you know I'm more
interested in talking to you guys about Vch because you're interested than talking to some no coiners who doesn't give a shit about it and that's also where gold bugs
completely go wrong of course as well they're they they haven't made anything cool that's the second
part of it once you are talking to somebody and they are interested you need to actually
make something i call it proof of passion but it's basically just proof of work in the real world, right? Why do sports teams do so
well? Because the people who make podcasts following that sport teams, they wear the colors
of that sport team everywhere they go, they tune in and they watch all the games. They get really
hyped. They make fantasy football, whatever. That's how a sport sustains itself. And crypto is
no different.
If nobody was really that interested in what I had to say about BCH
until now I've got 150 podcast episodes about it.
And somebody doesn't need to listen to 150 podcast episodes.
They just need to hear that I've made 150 episodes about it
to think, wow, this guy is serious
and must have something to say.
So talk to people who want to talk back
and then build something with them.
And then all the people on the fringes
will observe that and want to get involved.
That's how you break through that educational barrier.
Even though it can be slow and hard work,
that's the way to do it indirectly.
I totally agree with you.
Like fiat money is a brand,
and it's got a
great brand you know people love it and people that uh is that rain you're clapping um uh you
know people love the fiat brand because it serves a lot of them well you know they climb they climb
the corporate ladder they get you know in the positions of power. Bending the knee to fiat is very rewarding.
You get laid. There's lots to get out of it, right? Now, we all know people are selling their
soul. And there's definitely better ways to live. But I think that's kind of what crypto has to
become too. It's got to be cool. It's got to be sexy. It's got to, you know, we got to demonstrate how it is improving
the world by improving our own lives. You know, if we're leading successful, amazing lives
individually, people are going to want to see that. Like, how are you doing that? Like, what
are you doing? I want to do that too. And, oh, you know, through Bitcoin Cash and I've been doing
this now. Okay, cool. Tell me more.
And it's not because they care about crypto or freedom or anything like that. It's like,
they want your lifestyle, what you have. And that's how you kind of get them in and get them
interested. So yeah, totally agree with you, Bitcoin Cash. That's on the fringes. We just
slowly keep getting people in. It's like the,
you guys seen that video of the guy dancing at the music festival? He's out dancing a little
weird and crazy by himself. And then, you know, somebody else comes and joins them and they're
having their fun, doing their own thing. And next thing you know, there's like a thousand people
there. It's just this awesome scene and everyone's just having a great time. You know, we have to be
those weird, crazy people dancing by ourselves for a while.
But if we stick with it, you know, we're going to attract more
and it'll keep coming.
Yep, I agree with that.
We have a new speaker who's also, I guess he doubles as a soundboard.
Let me see, does that say Engineer Bendar,
if I'm understanding that correctly?
You want to test your mic?
What do you got for us?
Yes, thank you. I just want to uh uh first is the mic good yes you sound great go ahead
okay i want to add something that jeremy said i wasn't uh it wasn't my attention to talk
just but said something great about Bitcoin Cash.
I mean, I was the most Bitcoin maxi in the world, you can see.
I was saying that Bitcoin Cash is the shittiest coin I would ever see.
Now, I'm a Bitcoin Cash maxi.
Why? Because Jeremy has taught me what Bitcoin Cash means, even indirectly. The reason I now use Bitcoin Cash is the Lightning Network, believe it or not.
Actually, I lost more than a half Bitcoin setting up my own sovereign, and I say sovereign, Lightning Network.
Lion Network. I was using the Lion Network and then
Umbral got an update and corrupted data
to my desk that made me lose all my Bitcoin.
And I said, come on, that must be
the shittiest experience I have ever seen.
I mean, if no decentralized
coin can do an instant settlement, then we are lost.
And then I was, I don't know what triggered me to search about Bitcoin Cash, but I just did.
And I saw that video called Who Killed Bitcoin?
I saw that video called Who Killed Bitcoin?
And I was seeing the other narrative because I was at the Bitcoin block size war
and I was fully, fully into Bitcoin node propaganda.
Everyone should run their own node to protect the network and blah, blah, blah.
And I found out that's not true with Bitcoin Cash.
I can instantly
transact I can get my Bitcoin cash to buy anything that I want and I found out that most Bitcoin
maxi around here just use Bitcoin as an investment vehicle no one cares about Bitcoin where I live. I mean, where I live, we only care about two things,
mostly USDT for B2B transaction and an investment vehicle. And that's where Bitcoin do it for us. But if we want to really use Bitcoin, I couldn't find any way to use Bitcoin
in a decentralized, trusted way, except the Lightning Network. And the Lightning Network has failed me.
So that's why I railed into Bitcoin Cash.
I can see how it's private for my use case with Cash Fusion and also something called reusable payment address.
So this is perfect for my use case.
my use case i mean come on when i when i buy something with bitcoin sometime i use binance
I mean, come on.
in order to have an instant payment where i buy something for two dollars or three dollars with
eight dollar fee sometime i mean that's ridiculous so bitcoin cash give me a really good experience and use case with less than a penny.
So I'm thankful for that.
And yes, go ahead.
I'm so sorry to interrupt you.
I'm actually thankful you said that
because I forgot, Kenton,
you know, Bitcoin Cash,
they are developing...
Oh, your mic's open, Benjar,
just so you're hesitant.
I want to just pause yourself, please.
You guys do have privacy you are developing from our previous conversation.
I'm definitely not an expert, so I don't know if I should kick it to Emergent or the Bitcoin Cash podcast.
But do you guys want to talk a little bit about that?
Can I just say something quickly?
I just want to, previous speaker, are you saying wallet of Satoshi where you have to give your email address and your geo locked isn't isn't a good solution it's a joke by the way i'm yeah it's the people in this room know that it's a joke the
people outside i worry oh boy well you know guys like i say you know this isn't meant to be a btc
hate space or anything like that of course i don I don't care, but I don't know.
You know, I'm a real person.
I have my own opinions. I don't represent Thorchain when it comes to opinions.
I see obvious cracks and I don't understand.
You know what I mean?
But anyway, to get back to it, I know, Mergent, do you want to talk about the privacy element of BCH since Banjar brought it up?
Sure, sure.
Bitcoin Cash has had multiple privacy solutions over the years.
The current most popular one is called Cash Fusion.
And I just brought up the site redteam.cash.
This is where a researcher who primarily works in Monero, but he came over for a while.
And through the crowdfunding thing that I helped to create Flipstarter. He got funded to do some
research on CashFusion and how it works. And I just looked up there and it's a 304,000 CashFusion
transactions involving 28 million BCH. So more than the total supply of Bitcoin has gone through
CashFusion transactions, right? I don't know how much that is.
Some incredible amount of money.
So yeah, it actually provides a fantastic and easy privacy solution.
You get the Electron Cash Wallet, which is kind of a workhorse.
It's an old derivative from the Electrum Wallet, which you may have used in BTC, but
this was years and years ago that it separated and has been improving since then.
And that, you just turn that on and you have your money in the wallet and you just turn
on the cash fusion and in the background, it just continuously is doing cash fusion
transactions.
And these are, you may be familiar with coin mixers or some of the common coin mixers,
but it's like that but better.
And that would take a whole discussion to explain why it's better.
But yeah, you just sit there and it's trustless transactions running in the background and
you get coins on the other side that are very, very hard statistically to connect to anything
that happened on the other side.
So yeah, that's something that, like I said, 28 million BCH has
been through. It's going on every day. Anybody can jump into it and use it very easily. That's
the most common one. Somebody, I think it was Ben mentioned RPA, which is reusable payment addresses,
which is very similar, not the same thing, but similar to what Monero does. And you can use those to publish an address, an RPA address, and it's just one address.
And when someone sends money to you, the address that they send to is not that address itself.
It's an address that's created by combining your key and the public key that someone else has
published. And when they send to this new address, that address never existed.
But I, who am receiving it, am able to do a little bit of statistical grinding and I
can watch on chain and be like, oh, that's mine.
I can actually, that's my money.
I can produce the private key for that by observing what they sent, where they sent
it from and observing my own private key.
And I can create the private key for this address that they sent it from and observing my own private key and I can create the private key
for this address that they sent to. Anyway, so you can publish an address and then every
time somebody sends you a payment, it goes to a completely new address that nobody has
any ideas connected to that public address that you have posted. Yeah, so there's multiple
privacy things going on. And then with the upcoming upgrades we have for Bitcoin Cash
in 2026 that are very likely to happen in 2026, we now have the ability to implement quantum
protection for anybody who thinks that's a realistic possibility. And then also to start
implementing the ZK proofs to where you could eventually implement something
like a tornado pool or something like that.
So yeah, it's all there.
So it's because I'm ignorant.
I don't know.
So is it more like Monero where it's like obfuscation or is it like something like zero
knowledge proof like Zcash?
Like how specifically does it work?
It's obfuscation I take it.
All of them.
So the RPA that I mentioned is more like Monero,
where if you're able to...
Oh, you have different ways.
I understand.
Okay.
Yeah, you have multiple.
That's the nice thing about having a bare metal chain
that doesn't have a really strong opinion
on exactly how things should be done.
It's just a very strong virtual machine
and it can do whatever it is you want it to do.
So one of those is Monero type transactions.
And then another one you can do is ZK,
which hasn't been implemented yet,
that this isn't gonna be enabled by the upgrades
that are coming in 2026.
And then there's the cache fusion,
which is a statistical hiding, right?
So I mean, all of these are statistical, but it's more of like a coin mixer where you have, I provide 10 inputs into a 50 input transaction.
And I receive four outputs from, you know, among 40 outputs in the transaction.
And the way that it's done statistically is called the knapsack problem.
And it means that even if you think you know
what's going on on the inputs or who owns what inputs,
even if you think you know who owns what inputs,
it's very hard to calculate with any certainty
who owns the outputs.
So yeah, it's a statistical trick.
There you go.
BitPoint Cash, ProPrivacy.
Oh, go ahead, Kenton. So you said bare metal chain, I think you go. Bitcoin Cash, pro privacy. Go ahead, Kenton.
You said bare metal chain, I think you said.
What does that mean?
What did you mean by that?
What I mean is, for example, Bitcoin Cash just works the way Bitcoin was originally
created, which is you put money into a lock script and that lock script is a program.
And the simplest program is just what people are used to, where it's like, oh, I have the key and I can unlock it if I want to. But really,
it's just a program. Even the most simple Bitcoin transaction is a very simple program that says,
if you can provide the signature that unlocks this coin, then it's your coin and you can spend it.
But it's a program and you can make those as arbitrarily complex as you want. And so that can go from that, which is just, you know, my money and I can spend it to implementing something like bulletproofs that Monero does, because that's really just a pile of code about what it does.
And then you can do cache fusion like it does, or you can implement a ZK pool like TornadoCache, because that's really just a program where people all throw their
money into a smart contract. And so what I mean by a bare metal is it's a virtual machine that can do
whatever the hell you want it to within the boundaries of what a Bitcoin cash transaction allows.
I'm not sure if that answered the question. Yeah, it does. Actually, it's kind of that's kind of similar way to explain doorchain smart contract
layer app layer would you agree patriot uh yeah as far as i understand you know this is i'm not a
developer so i'm always insecure when it comes to specifics but yes i think you're right and great
question by the way so i gotta i have a dumb question so like because because Monero is basically a fork of Bitcoin, right? So like it's just Monero, the Monero devs just took Bitcoin and just added a bunch of stuff on top of it, right?
what a reasonable and good approach to privacy is.
And took that approach and then applied it to the consensus layer, right?
Where every transaction will follow these rules.
Whereas the idea of the bare metal chain is saying,
well, you can do that if you want to,
but you can also do something else if you want to.
And that's not a, it's not necessarily an obvious
one is better than the other, right?
Because if you're opinionated and you make the right choice, then maybe you have great
effect from that.
But if you're opinionated and you didn't make the right choice or something in cryptography
changes or somebody else has a better thing, now you're in kind of a rough position.
Whereas the drawbacks of doing bare metal is, well, maybe it'll be slightly less efficient
than doing it,
you know, built into consensus. So maybe there's some trade-offs there, but yeah,
BCH is very bare metal and provides you the tools that you want to, that you need to build what you
want to build. So let me just expand on that a little bit to kind of clarify or maybe extend what Emergent is saying.
So, you know, we were talking about having the MUSD integration in ThorChain, right?
So we have this MUSD stable coin that people lock up their BCH and they mint the MUSD and then it has a stable value which they can cash in.
And so you have a decentralized
stable coin right so that's a that's a cash token which is just the BCH protocol for tokens
but those cash tokens can be anything so again after the next upgrade and this is just theoretically
possible nobody has built this yet right but we BCH will be able to have a cash token that replicates the monero cryptography
so you'll be able to buy a token on a bch dex that is equivalent you know in terms of cryptography
and privacy to monero but not only that you could also make a cash token that had the zcash
cryptography right in it and then you could you know, swap from one to the other
or you could chain them together.
You know, you could have a token that combines the two
and let you send through both of the privacy schemes
and then on out the other side, right?
So the approach that BCH is taking
is that we will be able to offer the cryptography from every single chain as a token on our own chain, if that makes sense.
It does. I mean, that sounds huge.
Have you heard of, is it Haven Protocol? What were they called?
Do you guys want to talk about it? Yeah have, what were they called? Page, do you remember what they were? Do you guys want to talk about?
Yeah. Um, yeah.
Accent XMR. Was it called? It was, uh, it was the Monero fork, right?
Of privacy is that we're thinking of.
Yeah, I think, I think it was a fork of Monero and they were basically trying to
do what you guys just talked about. They, um,
have a token that you could, um,
mint into a stable coin and that stablecoin would be have make privacy.
I don't really know what happened with it.
I can tell you what happened.
Okay, sure.
They died and we dodged a bullet with that one.
We were actually thinking about adding them at one point, but they had a mint bug.
And when you look at, I'm not sure how it works with, you know, looking up a blockchain explorer on a privacy token.
But when they looked it up, they had realized that the supply of XMR had greatly surpassed the maximum that was thought to exist.
And so it was so inflated to the point where it was just hopelessly gone.
So it died.
Unfortunately.
So this is actually one of the advantages, right?
So like if you talk to a Monero person, they will say to you,
oh, what do you mean you have a chain with transparent transactions?
Like everything has to be layer one, you know, private transactions.
Otherwise, there's no point.
And this is just a terrible thing.
And that's great if they, you know, want otherwise there's no point and this is just a terrible thing and that's great if they you know want to pursue that option but like every option there's no
solutions only trade-offs right so the bch trade-off in having a transparent chain but with
very powerful scripting is that we'll be able to have a token that is equivalent to the monero
privacy but it's like opt in, you know, if you
want to be part of that, you can opt into it. Now, you're not going to have problems with those
inflation bugs. Or if you are, it's only going to be the people who choose to opt into that system,
because the base 21 million BCH will always just be very clear. So if people are swapping their 21 million BCH
into this Monero cash token that somebody has made, it will still be very clear where all the
21 million BCH are. So even if there's a bug found in the cryptography of the person issuing
the supply of that token or in the coding of it or something like that, then the only people
who are going to get rugged are the people who've chosen to opt into that. And in fact, somebody
could just fix that bug and create a new token, and then everybody could just migrate across from
one to the other, right? So that's kind of the trade-off of having it not be baked into your
layer one protocol, is you you avoided any of those risks.
Yeah, we have a couple of hands up.
CypherCat, I'm going to get you in just a second.
But yeah, imagine for everyone,
you know, ThorChain, we built this.
It's very complicated protocol.
And, you know, we've made a few mistakes here and there,
but you got to give a shout out to the devs right now
because they were not satisfied with the implementation
and the XMR and Haven,
and they refused to add it to the protocol.
That was a beautiful thing they did,
because imagine we had an asset that just basically the supply went to damn near infinity.
That means everything would have gone to zero,
because if the asset's zero, all the ruin would have been arbitraged out of the pool.
So shout out to the devs for dodging that bullet.
CypherCat has come up.
You want to check
your mic what do you got for us hey guys i'm sorry i'm gonna have to sorry to jump in i'm gonna have
to go it's been it's been uh two hours now and it's uh it's 2 a.m for me so i'm gonna have to
jump off but it's been very good to talk with you all thank you so much oh and jeremy if you got to
bounce too um we can wrap the space in a little bit. Not immediately, but yeah, soon. Okay.
I appreciate you guys and Emerging.
Thank you so much for being a trooper and staying up late.
I really appreciate it.
I think we squeezed a lot of the juice out of the space, but we do have some speakers up here.
We'll get to them and we'll take it from there.
So Cyphercat, if you want to go ahead and check your mic, go ahead.
Thanks, guys.
Take care.
Take care, brother.
Yeah, I was just appreciating the discussion.
Excuse the PFP and trying to rep Mariah Protocol over on the Solana chain.
So I joined the Koala gang and they immediately drew this.
And I was like, screw it.
I'm honored.
So anyways, one of the things I want to talk about is just unit bias, right?
Like, I think that's going to be a
huge huge thing in the future whether or not we realize it like one of the the main thing that
was actually forgotten left behind by the btc guys was actually sats it's crazy because they're at
like i think it's like 16 000 sats to like to like until they reach their dollar you know parity or
something and it's completely irrelevant
it's totally useless if you were to try and get to that point you would be in full-on centralization
no one would touch it you'd be in 100 kyc territory it's just it's it's a total not it's it's it's a
it's a non-starter right it doesn't solve a problem but what's really cool about bch is that
we actually have sats and like if if you're in sats right now, if you're in Bitcoin Cash right now, you can kind of think like, wow, like even if you've got one BCH, you can think of yourself as, wow.
You know, that's a hundred million sats.
Like, think of yourself as like, I think the new generation, they're calling it pre-rich, right?
So you got to think like that.
I just hope that that kind of mentality can can work itself into Bitcoin cash.
And then that'll help the spending narrative. Right. Because because that's the that's the big problem right now that we have is a lot of people, you know, like, oh, I just want, you know, I just want one BCH.
I just want to, you know, stack up. It's like it's a problem of bias. Right. It's like, sure, online, we want to kind of minimize it so we can make more BCH, you know, stack up. It's like, it's a problem of bias, right? It's like, sure, online, we want to
kind of minimize it so we can make more BCH, you know. But if we talk more broadly in sats, I think
that that'll actually translate to a lot more spending culture. If everyone feels rich, then,
you know, that's, then that's a great thing. And it's like, yeah, like, we need to start thinking as, as like, these are future dollars, you know, it's just kind of what I wanted to
throw in there. Um, but yeah, great discussion. I'm, I'm happy with what you guys are building.
I think that Mocha could be, uh, one of those big apps. If we, if we get it into a bunch of
coffee shops and stuff and people are going to be using it. As long as it's agorist, right?
People start learning how to like, you know, just be a little bit more educated of how to go about, you know, because the thing is, there's nothing.
Okay, there's actually nothing unlawful of just buying BCH, exiting the system.
Like in Canada, especially if you just buy BCH and you never look back and you say, these are my new dollars,
right? Sats are my new dollars. You never look back. They're not coming for you. They don't
care anymore. They only care if you're day trading 24 seven, trying to go back into fiat.
That's what they're going to come after you for when it comes to all that kind of stuff.
But if you're just deciding that like sats are my new dollar and I'm just going to build this,
I'm just going to hold this and I'm just going to spend this like dollars,
you know, then yeah, then yeah, we get there a lot faster. Anyways,
I'm going to let, I'm just going to get, go down.
So the next speaker can talk.
Hey, I appreciate you coming up. And yeah, I was,
we were a little nervous with your PFP,
but thank you so much for restoring my faith a little bit in humanity.
Cause my, I was on the mute button, buddy. I was ready, but you are welcome.
Up on the stage. All right. We was ready, but you are welcome. Up on the stage.
All right, we got another hand.
Banjar, go ahead.
What do you got for us?
Thank you very much for letting me have this opportunity.
I would like to add to what Jeremy said about Bitcoin Cash.
If we can summarize this, that Bitcoin Cash privacy is based on convenient and fastness we want very convenient
passive privacy and also it must it must be fast okay so uh the bitcoin cash how they do it is
modular today i would i would i would exaggerate this and saying today we have Monero level privacy how is that we can have cash fusion
giving million of mixing 24 7 and and and and and seven days okay due to the very cheap
transaction fee that we have so it's it would look like a full chain membership proof plus plus if i exaggerate it here and if we want to say that
monero use stealth address well we can combine this with rba rba first you i i give you my ad
my rba address you send me some uh bitcoin cash and then i use that to mix it in cash fusion passively.
And then in 2026, if we have ZK pool, we could theoretically send it into a tornado cash contract to obfuscate the, not obfuscate actually, hide the amount itself and then existing on the other end. So with RPA in the first place
The receiver of the address never appear in the blockchain itself. It's basically similar to KQAL it's silent payment
But with reusable static address
So this is the simplicity you get with Bitcoin Cash.
You could have a monero level privacy today by this modular approach.
And if something came better along the way,
you could just upgrade to that in a modular way,
just like Linux does it.
There you go.
My buddy Kenton dropped.
I'm trying to request and get him back up here.
Typically when we get to pass a two to three hour mark, things can get a little glitchy.
But I'm going to try and get him up here. But Jeremy, I want to kick it to you because I know you're going to be going to sleep soon.
Is there anything else you want to say? Maybe you want to promote your podcast.
I hope everyone listening to this, whether it's live or the recording, follow Jeremy, follow all the people you heard today.
They're absolutely excellent.
But I'll go ahead and hand the floor over to you, buddy.
Yeah, well, thanks for having us again, guys.
It's been fantastic to talk.
I'm so excited about that integration, the cash tokens integration, because I think, firstly, it's a great way for us as a community to share.
You know, like then we're bringing
users to you and you're bringing users to us. And that's already amazing. But it also sets the
stage then for if there is these future, you know, the research and dev that goes on to make these
privacy cash tokens as well. If we've got MUSD integrated, then it'll be presumably fairly simple. Should be to add other coins,
other cash tokens afterwards.
So then the power of BCH through ThorChain
then brings that pool of privacy
to so many more people.
Like you've said that you've not able to list Monero,
but you would be able to list this, right?
So that would be just a killer collaboration.
I'm really excited for that.
But yeah, everybody can obviously listen to podcasts,
go to bitcoincashpodcast.com,
all the links and episodes and everything is there.
At the moment, I'm really trying to help people
get interested in Blaze,
which we didn't get a chance to talk about,
but it's the hackathon that we're doing in November,
November the 15th.
Registrations are open for that. You can look up the BCH Blaze
account on Twitter or go to bchblaze.cash. I'm really hoping the ThorChain guys will get involved
and maybe register a team so that you can be part of it too, because that would be awesome. We've got
BCH prizes, obviously, and it's going to be a great way to connect with other people
in the space and celebrate and test out the new upgrades that will be coming in 2026.
So potentially people will already be making test versions of these kind of privacy tools
that we're talking about, which would be absolutely massive so that we already have everything
in the pipeline.
And then when it activates in May
we can just switch it on and it's already rolling like that's the ideal case we'll see how it goes
but uh if you're interested in that check out yeah bchblaze.cash and bitcoincashpodcast.com
thank you for having me it's been fantastic I really enjoyed it thank you for your time I know
it's late for you guys I really appreciate appreciate, you know, you guys staying up late, please extend them. I know they're probably sleeping now.
You guys are on the other side of the world and we try to keep the time the same. And so
I appreciate you guys not even offering an amendment. You just, you know, sucked it up
and you joined the usual time. And yeah, you guys are absolutely great. I love how you guys share
the ethos. And I would love, you know, if you ever have an event or anything or a special podcast, if you want, you know, Kenton or Atria or anyone else
up there, we'll gladly do it. And I'll do it on your time zone as well and extend the favor. So
yeah, thank you again, man. I really appreciate it. Brilliant. Thanks. All right. See you later.
All right. Cheers, buddy. Kenton, you want to try your mic uh got a little rug there
i'll make sure you're good to go i'm good yeah no and this sounds great sounds like good time to
wrap it up awesome guys i appreciate all the all the speakers today let's go ahead and uh wrap it
up here all right guys so um the third so let's see let me get my thing up here okay so uh next weekend we're going to be having
a space with the nft um a new community it's like n jar i don't know how to pronounce it i'm not
going to embarrass myself but it's a it's a collab it's going to be really cool so check that out for
next week the following week is going to be the mocha mocha uh space where Mocha is going live or they're on the,
on the cusp of going live.
So super, super excited for that.
And then the next week, the 27th of September,
we're going to have an Hans only experience.
Ruggiero, it's just going to be largely him.
He's going to say whatever he's going to say.
That is going to be a banger guys.
What those guys are building
on the app layer is truly revolutionary. They're having a little bit of quirks right now with the
web, you know, basically to make decentralized Binance, that's really hard to do to make
everything on chain. But they are going the technical hurdles one at a time. We are getting
there, guys. It's going to come. So super excited. So make sure to check out those, uh, those, uh, dates
and those, um, episodes. Kenton, do you have anything else you want to say before we wrap it
up? That's great, man. Thanks to everybody. All right, guys. Thank you so much again to all the
speakers. You are all great. God bless everybody. And we'll see you on the next week. Thank you now.
Bye-bye. Thank you.
