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Chad's Lounge - Nine Realms - What's On The Update Horizon?
Recorded: July 25, 2025 Duration: 1:58:12Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorChain is set to launch a new DEX and introduce its TCY token, while the community actively engages in governance and discussions about self-custody and growth strategies. The integration of XRP has proven successful, highlighting the platform's increasing adoption and user demand.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Hey guys, can you hear me?
It's some thumbs up by someone?
I'm going to go right on.
All right, while we wait for everyone to join,
let's go over a few things for people new to ThorChain.
So ThorChain is a DEX that enables you to swap Bitcoin
with thousands of other cryptos, all layer one native tokens.
There's no bridges or wrap tokens used,
and you can do it all for once in the self-custody of your own wallet there's no kyc on thor chain
it's permissionless thor chain's token is called rune spelled r-u-n-e you don't need to own rune
or hold it in a wallet or anything like that to do a trade on Thorchain. You just need your layer one tokens, that's it. But the fees are reduced from your trade and paid to the network in RUNE. And that
RUNE yield is what goes to liquidity pools and the nodes. So there's no block rewards on Thorchain,
100% of the yield is real. Thorchain has another token, it's called TCY. And this token is kind of like a preferred stock.
10% of all the protocol's revenue
goes towards these token holders.
So you don't have to bond the tokens or put them in pools.
You do have to stake them,
but the yield just automatically goes to those tokens.
And so if you had,
if you were in the Thorchain savers
or lending program in the past, you have claimed some of these tokens.
So make sure you claim them.
If you didn't, but you want to buy them, you can.
Anyone can buy these tokens.
They're free trading on ThorChain.
To trade on ThorChain, go to ThorChain.com and click on swap.
You'll see all the different wallets and websites you can use.
You can choose whatever interface you want to use.
There's a project called Rijira.
You're building decentralized on Thorchain.
Thorchain's new smart contract layer is being rolled out as we speak.
So stay tuned for that.
Hopefully the next few months they, you know, kind of are going more bigger, going more alive.
But it's happening right now.
Speaking of Binance, if you hold Rune on a centralized exchange, you should withdraw it into self-custody because those tokens can be used to short sell Rune and drive the price
down on yourself. And then once in self-custody, you can look into bonding your Rune to a node
or earn some yield on it. And the more security we have, the more Rune we have bonded,
that increases the ability for the network to grow,
which can help drive up the room price.
So you become an agent in your own success.
There's a ThorChain community Discord and Telegram group.
You can join, learn all about ThorChain,
meet other ThorChads.
The final links to those,
go to the Thor community account on Twitter.
Guys, please repost this space. Try and get some more people, get some more eyes on this.
If you're listening to the recording, repost it with your comments, questions. Love to hear from
you. And these spaces are aimed towards anyone in their ThorChain journey.
So if you're brand new, hopefully there's something for you to pick up on.
If you're an OG, hopefully we'll touch on some things that you're wondering or curious about.
And for you OGs, for you people out there, node operators, bond providers, there's two votes going on right now. The L1 minimum slot fee, you know, eight basis points for five.
I'm sure Cal will have some more to say on that later.
And then ADR20.
I think I want to say we're only 10 votes away from that moving forward.
But please, please vote.
Even if you're, you know, against, it's fine.
But at least vote against.
And with all that said
i think we can get started are you up here patriot yeah can you hear me here yeah hey guys um i'll
just go do a quick introduction of myself hatred sounds i'm educator with thor chain been doing
spaces now for a little bit and i am so glad to have the spaces og come join us today this is awesome and
the thing cow i want you to know we had i've had people ask me he's like hey why where's cow we
miss his voice so dude people are really happy that you're on the stage right now and it's an
honor for me because i remember listening to you back in the day during all the crazy stuff that
happened uh and you were a navigating voice during those times.
So it's dope as hell having you on the stage,
bro.
Thank you so much.
I am so glad that you guys are doing.
I don't have to do it every week anymore.
Oh my God.
I can actually focus on other things,
but yeah,
I like,
I like doing them.
It's just like,
Oh my God,
there's not enough hours in the day,
in the week. I'm really glad you guys can do them. And especially at like, oh, my God, there's not enough hours in the day and the week.
I'm really glad you guys can do them, and especially at, like, other times because, like, you know, I work enough, so I'm really not trying to do these, like, on the weekend.
I see you guys doing them all the time.
Sometimes I'll pop in for, like, you know, 15 minutes or whatever, but I'm just like, damn, I don't have the time to do all this.
But, yeah, I'm, like, super glad you guys have, like, actually taken this on and are, like like just continuing on the community stuff because I always thought it was so important doing these.
And obviously like it just brought just like a lot more like attention, discussion and better discussion because you just don't get the same vibe and stuff when you're doing like Discord or Telegram or whatever.
So it's just like a lot easier to you know hear people's
more complete opinions and all that stuff so i think it's like really really important
that's all great man thank you for that because like yeah i'm glad you feel that way because
when patriotized our dunies it wasn't to like you know step on anyone's toes or whatever just like
you know we noticed the spaces were falling off. And, and, like, I want
you to cook, like, I want the devs to be devving, you know, I don't want them to be worried about
doing spaces. And so, you know, for us, it's like, whatever we can do to help take some
work off your plate, so you can keep shipping, and, you know, you know, doing what needs to be
done under the hood. So, so thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, that to be done under the hood so uh so thank you thank you for
that yeah that helps me out like so so much like you don't even know and um like i'm kind of doing
some new some different stuff for for nine realms now so um so basically i've stepped into more of
a product manager role so i'm more focusing on like all right what are the things that we need
to ship like what are the priorities um like what yeah what goes in what are the things that we need to ship? Like, what are the priorities? Like, what, yeah, what goes in what release?
Like, all that stuff.
So I'm kind of, like, moving more into that.
Well, I have been doing that for, like, a couple months now,
now that especially we have, like, a bunch of new devs that are, you know,
stepping up and, like, really shipping stuff.
So, yeah, I just need a lot more attention on just, like, you know,
holding them through, like, all these little intricate subsystems that, that like maybe three people know that they exist and how they work and stuff.
So just like it takes a lot more time and energy to do that.
So it's really good to be able to just kind of like, you know, do more like the back office like dev stuff.
And then you guys can just like focus on getting the message out there, especially when I feel like just the pace has changed a lot over the past couple years.
So that just helps out tremendously.
So yeah, that's pretty much my new role with the devs and the dev team.
Although it always feels like I'm kind of doing the same stuff.
It's just like, yeah, I'm just trying to be much more supportive
and focusing the team and prioritizing the things that we think should be prioritized. stuff is just like uh yeah i'm just trying to like be be much more supportive and like focusing
the team and prioritizing the things that uh we think should be prioritized well that's awesome
well let's get into it then you what can you you mentioned a few new people joined new realms can
you can you talk about them what they're doing and then what are you project managing right now
what are you what are you working on yeah it's mostly just like prioritization. It's like someone needs to decide like, hey,
what is coming? What do we need to ship? Like what do the devs need to work on? So a lot of
that is working with like our integrators, like the SwapKit team, like TrustWallet and all that.
So like if there's issues, solving those issues, like, you know, failed refunds or just, like, whatever, all that, like, really boring stuff.
We can go into, like, what's coming up in some of the, like, the next couple updates and what I think some of the issues are that we want to solve.
But, yeah, the new devs that we have, they're super great.
Obviously, ThorChain is kind of a behemoth to get used to.
So, it's not like, you know, people that are really used to this code base
that's like very fine-tuned to do what it does.
And again, I'll just remind people
that it's like the most complicated project
in the industry, most likely,
just because of just the sheer scale of it
and how many of these little systems that are in place.
But yeah, so I guess we can go into like
some of the things that I think are priorities,. But yeah, so I guess we can go into some of the things
that I think are priorities, like immediate priorities,
and some of the next stuff that's coming up.
Sure.
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing right now
is just squashing some bugs, especially my biggest gripe,
which I've been trying to get done forever,
which is coming in 3.10, which is the next release
that we're focusing on. So I in 3.10, which is the next release that we're focusing
So I think 3.9 is rolling out next Thursday on mainnet.
So we're working on 3.10 next, which is the next big priority.
And in that, base outbounds is the number one thing that I've really been trying to
fix for a while.
There's a bug with our base outbounds where it costs like one thing that I've really been trying to fix for a while. There's a bug with our base outbounds
where it costs like $10 for us to like send out a base outbound,
which is just totally ridiculous.
And we have this floored outbound fee that's at a dollar,
but like, you know, there's no realm
in which base outbounds cost $10 to send out.
So it's just a bug that we have to fix
and like finally have like people actually focusing on that.
It's just like, again, these mini little subsystems
that nobody really understands.
I don't understand it myself.
So getting people like, you know,
even just fixing some of these little things
that probably no, like people do care about this stuff,
but I've never really heard anyone talk about it
besides myself and the SwapKit team.
Even just getting this little stuff just takes quite significant time and effort to find it and actually get
this stuff tested and stuff. So that's one of the big things. And also just outbound
fees in general. I want to be doing a little more work just around making sure we're super
competitive on outbound fees. So we have this system called the dynamic outbound fee multiplier.
So to run through exactly how the outbounds work on the chain.
So we have this Bifrost that's looking at all these chains and they're saying, okay,
this is what the gas fees are on Bitcoin.
This is what the gas fees are on Ethereum, blah, blah.
And it takes that number and it multiplies it by one and a half because right off the
bat we want to be making sure that our outbound transactions, like when you do a swap when
ThorChain sends you the funds, that's the outbound.
We want to make sure that that's getting to your wallet ASAP because the chain needs to
observe that the nodes have signed out the
outbound transaction and if there is no outbound transaction then it's like hey well the nodes
didn't send it so let's slash them. So that needs to happen super quick. So we multiply
the number that we observe by one and a half and then we apply the second multiplier to that
that number which is determined based on how much we've spent on gas versus how much we've
charged the users for gas basically over the past couple of years. So some of the chains like
Bitcoin, we've collected a lot more fees than we've actually spent. So we're at this big surplus.
So then we can kind of apply this kind of dampening multiplier and say, all right, well,
we're in this big surplus.
Like we're basically at like a 50,000 rune profit or whatever the number is.
So let's apply this dampening multiplier and then we can only charge like, you know, 50% of what the guess out by fee is.
But then for some chains, there isn't that many swaps.
We're not at a big surplus or we're maybe even at a loss for some assets, just in terms of like fees collected, versus the fees that it takes to send out the outbounds. And we have to apply another multiplier to it. So, you know, then we charge like three up to
3x what that other number is. So I want to reconfigure this system a little bit just to
make it make more sense. Because right
now, when we add a new asset on the chain, it starts at this 300% multiplier. And it slowly,
slowly, slowly walks down over time to 100% or down to 10%. So I want to change the system a
little bit so when a new pool is created created it gets initialized at a different value
than 300 because i think it's just some of our gas fees are just like too crazy and it just it's
like one of those systems that like nobody really thinks about but we really need to just like
take a look at it how can we architect it a little bit better so um yeah i'm just like i think gas
fees are just like super under looked.
And I want to make sure that we're like charging as little as possible for gas.
That makes sense.
Does that by ThorChain, you know, doing the two or three times the gas fee, does that affect the quote?
Does that get factored in the quote so that if we if you fix that, that'll improve our quotes and make our quotes better.
Yep, exactly.
Cool. Has there been any thought into like, why not just do one times? And if there is a higher cost, it just comes out of the reserve and we just, Torchchain kind of eats it as a loss leader.
it just comes out of the reserve and we just
Torchain kind of eats it as a lost leader
It's just tuned wrong
like it's just like the knobs are slightly
tweaked in the wrong direction so we have to just like
retweak them to get closer to that
like what you're saying is exactly what
I want this system to be like
Cool
What if is it
does it make sense to take
like if you know we have the burn right if you had like
one basis point go to the reserve as like the gas, like bulwark.
And then like you did what Kenzen said, go down to like a hundred percent or whatever it is.
Right.
And then that way, like some of the fees are compensating the reserve for better price execution.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
I mean, that's basically what happens already.
It's just like based on this other multiplier, which is based on this other system. It's just like, it's a weave of
complicated spaghetti that
just needs to be unwound a little bit.
So instead of implementing
a whole new system, we're just going to tweak some of
the knobs to just make it make
more sense and just to make it cheaper. But
remember, there's still a floor at $1 for
outbounds. So even if, like,
there's no point in, like, over-tweaking it
because, like like you know it
doesn't even matter once you get to it like once the outbound fee becomes a dollar that's the floor
so it doesn't get lower than that so there's like a point of diminishing returns there but obviously
like ten dollar base outbounds unacceptable um like most like some of the new b&b assets like
we added liquidity for like busd on financeance Smart Chain, based on some feedback from Trust Wallet.
And right now, the outbound fee for that is like $3.
And it's not really that big of a deal, but there's no reason for it to not just be like $1.
When you say the floor is $1, does that mean if the outbound fee is actually two cents, ThorShane is still going to charge a dollar anyway?
Yeah. And the reason for that is because there's the computational cost to ascending any outbound.
Like the nodes have to come together and do a key sign.
So there's like a computational cost to any outbound that we send.
So I guess it's arbitrary that it's just like, all right, well, because the outbound fee isn send so kind of I mean I guess it's arbitrary that
it's just like all right well because the outbound fee doesn't isn't just the
gas cost outbound fee is like you know how much does the chain take in for
sending the outbound so it's like I mean my opinion is that it should just be as
close to the gas cost as possible but then also like you know the nodes should
make sure they're compensated for outbound,
just the general computational thing.
So having a dollar outbound floor seems like a good spot to be at.
I mean, it's possible we could say we want to lower it or whatever, but a dollar seems
very reasonable for that type of thing, not too high, not too low. Well, so I'm wondering if like with high frequency traders,
a dollar upbound could actually be a big deal compared to five or 10 cents.
Well, that's if you're sending an L1 outbound.
If you're a high frequency trader and you're using trade assets,
there's no outbound fee for Thor assets because that's just a native chain swap.
So you're not spending a dollar doing ARB transactions.
You're spending a dollar if you want to do Ethereum to Bitcoin swap.
It costs a dollar minimum to get that Bitcoin out.
So there's no arbitrage being done in the L1 pools.
That's just all retail trading.
If there's any arbitrage being done, it's all being done on trade assets.
Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, that dollar doesn't apply to Thor native assets.
So like Ruji, for example, if Ruji, like if like so like any kind of outbound from Ruji,
like it costs a dollar minimum for us to send the outbound like or it could cost more if
the gas cost is more.
So it's kind of variable, just depending on
the guest cost of the chain, obviously.
But yeah, minimum to send an outbound
on an L1 chain is $1.
But Thor native assets,
they're like .02 rune,
which is like $0.10 or whatever.
Gotcha.
Patriot?
Should we keep going yeah absolutely and you know I really want
this familiar cow to speak because I know his time's
limited but maybe a little on the
personal side man I think you recently
got married went on
so congratulations
that's awesome
yeah took some time off
thank you
that's awesome buddy I love that.
Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Things are going good.
Yeah, dude. And you deserve it. You really do.
Cause you put in a lot of hard work and we wouldn't be here without you.
So I'm just, I'm just so honored you're up here, man. Well,
I don't know. I want to keep the conversation going.
So I know your time's limited.
What else do you want to say while you're up here?
Oh, yeah.
I want to make sure you have a matchup on my time.
Yeah, let's just run through, like, all the different priorities and stuff.
Because there's, like, I mean, all right.
So, yeah, I feel like there's always so much.
But it's just, like, you know, it takes time to, like, just get out there.
So, obviously, like, Tron, one of the biggest things that I think is just a big,
big priority that, you know, I've wanted this for a while and you can see it with XRP. Like I remember
like everyone's like, oh, why put in XRP? Like it's just, you know, like why even bother with
that? And then you look and see this fairly, very successful pool that's doing quite well right now.
Like if we did that a couple of years ago ago like imagine how much volume would have been you know going through that so i think tron very
similar story and we have some really good data from our you know integrations partners from uh
you know from all them that tron does very very high volume so like i'm very much looking forward
to tron trx and usdt swaps I think that's going to be pretty big.
The main issue I'm concerned about with Tron is just Tron gas fees.
Tron is not a cheap chain, which is totally the opposite of what I thought it was.
I thought Tron was supposed to be this chain where the whole point is that it's super cheap.
But actually, it's very expensive to send out some of these swaps so i'm hoping that it's not like
prohibitively expensive to use our infrastructure to do it there's no real way to test that until
it's live but um if it does become a problem then that that'll also be a priority that i'll push to
make sure that um tron swaps are as cheap as possible just gas-wise.
So whether that's like, so there are these resources on Tron called like energy,
and you get energy from staking Tron, I believe,
and you can spend this like energy, quote unquote, instead of like TRX in gas fees. So maybe there's something that happens where we like, you know,
have an agreement
with someone that's a you know a node operator on Tron and we just buy a bunch of energy for Thor
Chain so we can just like have cheaper swaps or something like I don't know there's things that
we can do but it's kind of like it's a little opaque to me right now because until we get it
live it's like kind of hard for all of us to kind of wrap our heads around like what it's really
going to be like with Tron on Thor Chain but like as a whole very excited about Tron on Thor Chain I
think that's going to do a ton of volume I think it's going to make a big impact in terms of like
you know users and you know just general swap volume I think it's going to be pretty big
I'm excited too and it's like if there's one way ThorChain can redeem itself from ThorFi,
is to give all the ruined investors what they've been begging for the last few years is more chains.
Like, you know, that's one way we can redeem ourselves. And so I'm happy to see XRP, Tron,
we all want Solana. Like, I want to see, you know, a dozen more blockchains on Thorchain.
And, yeah, and then that's why I get, you know, I don't want to drill out the conversation,
but this is why I want to do something for some kind of marketing to drive people, let
people know they can come trade, they can come do this.
Because, I mean, these are hugely, if you look at the volumes of these top cryptos,
they trade billions of dollars a day um you know we can capture some of that so um um this is great i'm really looking forward to
it so do you have last i heard like a few weeks ago china was supposed to be a few weeks so are
we still is it any day now is it still a few weeks um it's looking like 310 there's just like it's
mostly just like infrastructure stuff at this point.
But there's also the issue around the gas fees and stuff, which is a big question mark in my mind.
It's not going to stop us from shipping it.
I'd rather just get it out there with high gas fees to start and just fix the issue later rather than just delay it until we have a better solution for it.
So it's looking like 310, although it's possible that it could get delayed um i also
thought it was a couple weeks ago so it's like kind of news to me that it's you know it just
takes some more stuff especially on like the back end uh i think just getting infrastructure i think
it's mostly like an infrastructure thing at this point i think the code in bifrost is shipped is
just like some thornode stuff that needs to go out so i'll have more clarity on that next week when Ursa's back in. So, yeah, so
he's, like, obviously the guy, so
he's going to, you know, make
sure that gets across the line. Worst case is
3.11, but, you know, obviously, like,
3.10 is, like, an absolutely packed
release, so, like, you know,
that'll be, like, one of many things that goes out in
3.10. And speaking of Solana,
like, great
news on Solana.
EDDSA is live.
We've had a couple turns already with EDDSA.
We have EDDSA vaults.
It works.
It looks fine to me.
So there hasn't been any objections on moving forward on Solana so far.
So it seems like, you know, Solana is on track.
And I think Solana will be after tron just
because like tron just seems like lower hanging fruit less risk solana it's just you know it's
beefier it's going to take more resources and some more focus around it but um yeah maybe like
so let's call it middle of august for tron because that'll be like a 310 release and then probably late
August early probably early September realistically for Solana hopefully if
all things go well but EDGSA was the first step which we've obviously been
wanting for a while as well and that's that's in and it's looking like it works
so fingers crossed when you mentioned when you said the EDDSA vaults are live
and they're working a few turns now,
isn't that one of the bugs, the problems happened
like several months ago is that in testing,
the EDDSA vault didn't migrate over it.
It failed to the churn and those funds were lost or something.
And you guys had to go back to the drawing board to figure it out is that
true am I getting that right I don't really remember what that was like I do
remember there was some kind of issue with it although like it seems like
things are fine right now we have EDDSA this is live on mainnet so like it's
it's shipped on mainnet so and we've had the they generated the first vault last
turn a few turns ago and then this turn just migrate, like we have a new vault, but obviously there's
no funds being migrated between them.
So that's like kind of a separate thing.
But yeah.
Maybe, maybe I'll ask this a different way.
So one of the reasons it's taken so long is that every time it's been tested, there's
a new bug that comes up.
You have to go back and figure it out, test again, fix another bug.
Has it been constantly back and forth?
Or has it just been a matter of manpower?
You just haven't had the devs.
There just hasn't been time for people to focus on it to get it done.
What's taken so long to get Solana to this point?
Yeah, I mean, a little column A, a little column B.
It's like, you know, we were supposed to do Solana last year,
and then we had to drop that for Rune Pool,
and then we had to drop that for Thorpey stuff,
and then we had to drop that for TCY stuff,
and then, you know, finally it picked back up in, like, you know, May.
And this is, like, Andrew from Strangelo that's leading this charge.
And then also, yes, it's like, yeah, you ship it, you see there's a bug, and then it's like,
all right, well, then it takes another two weeks
to three weeks to ship out the next version,
test it again, and so it's kind of a combination
of everything, and really that's why everything
just takes so long on this chain,
and especially in the past where it's like,
hey, like, Nine Realms team, we really wanna ship out,
like, Tron and do all this stuff, where it's like, hey, like, Nine Realms team, we really want to ship out, like, Tron and do all this stuff.
But it's like, well, everyone else wants Rune Pool and, you know, this, that, and the other thing.
So we got to do that instead.
So, like, the things we've always wanted to do were always indefinitely delayed.
And now we kind of have, now that, you know, the air is cleared a little bit, there's a little more agency for us to actually ship the things that we want to ship, including Solana.
Awesome.
You mentioned Strangelove.
Are they still working with Thorchain, or are they done now?
So Strangelove was acquired by Ando.
um he ratched to them by the way but and so i'm i'm not sure of the complete arrangement but um
He ratched to them, by the way.
andrew who is like uh you know amazingly talented dev he will be sticking around working about part
time for for uh doorchain shipping like some things so like the entire team isn't but andrew
specifically who's like you know the rock star on the, who's, like, he's the one that's shipping Solana and EDDSA
and two-second block times, which we can get into in a second.
He's sticking around working part-time for ThorChain.
So is he or some other people, who's working on new chains then?
Is that Nine Realms, or is it all of you?
Yeah, so I'll talk about it.
So, well, it'll be, it's a joint effort.
Like we have like this dev like community
like of like there's Nine Realms,
there's like some of the Ruji devs.
Like I don't know if StarSquid is like included in that
or if he's just like a community dev.
He's kind of a Ruji kind of community dev.
And we have Andrew from Strangelove and we have Chad.
There's just like, it There's just, like,
it's a dev, like,
I guess you would consider
that, like, the core dev team. So, like, Nine Realms is
one of, like, the members of the core
dev team, I guess.
So, yeah, I hope that
answers your question enough, whereas, like,
it'll be divided up among
those groups of people. Like, I can picture
StarSquid doing a couple chains.
But the point on the new chains is I do think we hit...
So I think there's a couple more chains that we want to ship out,
which I can say exactly what I think those are.
But then I think we very quickly hit a point of diminishing returns with chains
where it's like, I think there's probably maybe like
three to six new chains
I want to see. Then after that, it's like, I think we hit the pause button and just like,
see what happens for a while, you know? Like I, cause I do think we hit this point of diminishing
returns with chains. Like we get the really high value ones, the ones that are like really
highly requested by all the integrations. because that's where we really have data.
And then it's like, once you kind of get into the second tier of chains, it's just like, it's just as much work, just as much maintenance for significantly reduced reward.
So it's like, once you hit that point of diminishing returns, and it's like, all right,
well, we'll kind of have to play it by ear at that point.
at that point but in terms of like next chains um like solana um obviously tron
um what else oh three ton telegrams network those are both eddsa chains that i want to see
um arbitrom and you know i feel like there isn't really much more than that that is like mission critical
you know I think once we get those that covers
like almost all the volume
of our biggest partners
like everything else is just kind of like
scraps at that point which is like is it really
worth the effort like probably not
yeah I think
you know once we get a certain amount of change like that
I think the next point is
because you're right there's so much engineering work that's go to add these chains. And is it
worth it? Like, at that point, I think you almost want to go almost all in on optimizations and
making the network like more hardy, more robust. I don't know, maybe work with the
Redurin devs on stuff. It's beyond my understanding. But just making Thorchain more
solid, running like butter,
leaner and meaner, just so we're more like, you know, your gas optimizations, two second block
times, and more things that you guys are probably thinking about that we don't know yet. So
that makes sense to me, because we already have a good amount of chains. We do definitely want
those as well. But that's what I would think the next logical step is just making everything run
so good. And just, you know, removing all the nuances.
And of course, when we add those new chains, we're going to probably have a litany of new bugs.
It always happens, you know.
But I have to say, Cal, XRP integration, that has been an absolutely wonderful.
I think this is probably the smoothest integration.
I don't remember there being problems with Doge back like the first one we added but um xrp has been absolutely i know we did have a little double spend but other
than that i don't think there's really been too much um is that right um yeah other than so yeah
the only bug is that um there was a there was a bug where um the vault would double spend.
Well, actually, it's two bugs, actually.
There was one where we weren't doing instant observations for XRP.
So we would try and send the outbound.
And then on some of the other chains, we will instantly observe our own transaction when we send it out.
We used to not do that, but then we, you know, we implemented this instant observation thing.
So we didn't do that with XRP.
So we kind of learned our lesson on that.
All right, let's put instant observations on,
and we overlooked that when we shipped the chain.
The other thing was with really, really large outbounds,
like with some of these, like, you know,
quarter million dollar swaps or whatever,
it would take multiple vaults to send out the outbound.
But if it's bigger than the balance of the vault
that it was trying to send out,
there was a bug where it couldn't send out the outbound.
It would just get stuck for a while.
So some of these swaps were just not being able to be signed out.
Because I think there wasn't enough for gas
to send it out or whatever.
It was one of those bugs that's really hard to catch.
But yeah, it was or whatever. It was like one of those bugs that's like really hard to catch. But yeah, it was pretty smooth. And yeah, great chain to add for sure. Super highly requested.
We're still not in live in Ledger yet. As a reminder, we're live in TrustWallet and
like day one, the volume is like rocket ship up. So it's like amazing to see. Love to see it.
Yeah, the XRPers, dude, seven interact with them and they are so stoked.
They are so stoked that we added XRP and I foresee that,
that pool being one of the busier pools we have. So yeah,
that was definitely a diamond win for us.
I want to pivot though, back to you, because I know, you know,
I don't know how much time you have.
I know you have some opinions about the ongoing vote regarding five or eight
basis points. I just want to give you the floor if you wanted to speak about that.
Yeah, sure. So here's my thoughts. We were at eight basis points, and I was the one that
made the call to, all right, let's vote. Let's go down to five basis points for a little bit,
see where we're at. That was right before I took some time off for the wedding and honeymoon and stuff.
So I was like, all right, when I get back, let's check it out.
Let's see how the revenue is.
And then we'll move on from there.
Maybe it's great.
I was predicting that, hey, volumes are going to go way up once we move down the fees.
It turns out that all we're doing is, I mean, in my opinion, and looking at the data,
I think that we're just charging less for the same service. We're just undercutting ourselves,
and we should just, well, I'll tell you what I think the solution is and what we're going to do.
We talked about this during our dev call yesterday, and all the core dev community
is in agreement with this approach,
so this is likely what's going to happen.
It's a real pain doing all these votes,
and the last thing I wanna spend my time on
is having to whip votes or trying to convince people,
especially on something like these fees.
And someone also brought up a good point where it's like, I was saying,
hey, well, we should move fees up
to see if revenue goes back up
because I think we're just charging less
for the same service now.
But really ARBs are like, you know,
80% of the volume on the chain.
Like bots, it's all bots,
but like changing the L1 minslip fee
doesn't change what the ARBs are paying
because that's a separate MAMIR.
And then there's another MAMIR that we need to change
so they don't get around it by using secured assets
instead of trade assets.
So there's really three MAMIRs we have to change
if we want to experiment with it.
And I just, you know,
I really just don't want to spend any time at all
thinking of like having to like do governance
and votes and stuff like that
is like the last thing that I want to do.
So what I think that we should do moving forward, I think we should move all of those fees to operational. If you're unopinionated, so, okay, so operational,
operational memires, meaning that only three votes are required to change it. And then further than
three votes is a simple majority.
So if someone else votes with four, then it changes to that value.
And if someone else votes with five, then it changes to that value.
So it's kind of like if you're unopinionated, you can stay out of it and just say like, all right, let the devs do their thing.
Or let's say you really, really, really care about like the three basis points
that, you know, we want to check with right now.
Then, you know, you can vote and stop us in our points that, you know, we want to check with right now, then,
you know, you can vote and stop us in our tracks and, you know, just do that. I think we can do that for things like the fees, because that isn't really like a mission critical thing. It's not
like a security issue. Obviously, it's like a UX thing. But I want to maximize the revenue that we take in.
Nodes are, past couple of months, I've been looking at the data, and as Nine Realms is a company that runs door nodes, node revenue is way down.
We want to try and optimize that as much as possible, and if that means less volume from retail users,
then it means less volume from retail users. I'd rather have more revenue than more volume.
So that's where I'm at with it. So basically, I want the ability to be able to say, hey,
let's be more experimental. I think we should go anywhere from one basis point to 15, to 30.
I don't know, probably not 30.
But like, we should just like experiment for a week and say like,
hey, we're launching Tron.
Let's bring it to one basis point and just like see what happens for a week.
Does revenue go to zero that week?
If it does, then that's a lesson.
And let's move it to 15. And does revenue go way up that week? If it does, then that's a lesson. And let's move it to 15.
And does revenue go way up that week?
Or does our volume crash or whatever?
Like none of this stuff.
So the issue with the economic mameers
is that it's moving a train
every single time you want to change it,
which is really good if it's mission critical,
like security or like, you know,
changing the time between a churn or whatever.
So as a node operator and bond provider, I agree with that. I would like to see that because
decentralization is great for security, but it's awful for governance. And, you know, having
an individual tweak the fees isn't going to blow up ThorChain.
And Nine Realms, you guys get paid from your 5% developer fund from the revenue, right?
So you have every motivation in the world to keep the ThorChain revenue high.
And in turn, my bond provider yield high and the liquidity provider yield high.
So, you know, all our interests are aligned.
And so I totally agree.
I would love to have you guys have that ability.
But I would ask that you guys can do that.
Great.
But, you know, provide us with some charts, some data, walk us through your findings so that we can, as the node operators, we can cooperate with what you're saying.
We don't have to just trust you, right?
It'd be nice to see.
But a question for you, Cal, the L1 min slip fee, I mean, that's just across the board, all pools, all trade sizes.
I think the guy's name is Crypto Actuary.
He's been talking about, you know, can we change it so that it's a different fee on the dollar size of the trade?
And or could we also change it on a per pool basis?
Right.
If we have the monopoly on decentralized XRP swaps,
you know, maybe we can get away with 30 basis points,
you know, instead of eight, you know what I mean?
Maybe with Bitcoin pool, we should drop it to three
because we want to be competitive
with the rest of the market.
Is that possible?
Has that been talked about?
I mean, it is totally possible.
I really like all the ideas, but it's like, it's really just implementation.
Like, if he wants to ship a PR, then maybe we can talk about merging it.
But it's like, when it's all just like, hey, we should do this, we should do that.
It's like, it's not especially helpful, especially like with just the resources that we have.
It's much easier to just like tweak the parameter, like with the DOFM stuff,
the outbound fee stuff. It's way, like, a thousand times easier, which, and it's not easy, by the way,
to tweak any of this stuff with the current system that we have rather than like implementing a whole new thing, you know what I mean? So it's like, yes, all that stuff is possible, I think, but it's like,
I think it's just, I'd rather ship everything else that we have rather
than like, you know, figure out like, and then it's just more, it was more data to go through
and to figure out, you know, it's just like, man, it just like, it just never runs the rabbit hole.
So, um, yeah, I'm much, I'm much more preferable to like tweaking the stuff that we got rather
than trying to figure out how to like, you know, this Jenga tower that's built on top of the current system that just more and more levers to tweak. it just like oh my god what a crazy time suck especially like you know pulling um uh like what
like our delegates and stuff like that like announcing votes like i really also the reason
i really haven't been pushing this super hard in like discord and and stuff and like really banging
the drum on it is like i don't want to like fatigue people on this like i can see there's
disagreement but i'm also not really sure whether it's like disagreement in the fact that it's like, hey, like we, we want to keep these at five or otherwise like I'm going
to turn out and dump my rune or whatever. Or if it's just like, hey, well, you know, I'm just
voicing my devil's advocate opinion. And like, we, you know, we trust you guys to do this or what.
So I think that the move to operational Mimir is the best thing because then we can just say,
hey, if you don't care, then unvote and just let us take care of it.
And if you do care, then keep your votes and that's operational. And then if we outweigh you, then, you know, we're going to we're going to move the fees around.
And obviously we're going to we're obviously we're very aligned. Like we want to just maximize like the goal is like maximize the the revenue to the system like it's a very
simple equation and like without the ability to easily move the levers around like it's just
gonna waste too much time if we try and like implement these little micro systems on top of
the system we already got you know what i mean but totally yeah you got to be able to this whole
point of testing you got to try this and try that and quickly like if you're doing a test and
realizing it's not working you can't wait a few weeks to rally up all the nodes to change it it's
just easier to do it yourself um well i feel like that's where we're at yeah the fees it's like
hey you can look at like the one chart i posted where it's like the revenue per unit of volume
so it normalizes how much we're charging for how much volume there is. You can see exactly where we flipped that switch. It was hovering around one number, and now it's very
much down towards five, which is, hey, that's where we set the MAMIR. I wonder where that is.
So just a little bit of a, I don't know, I'm just going to sound cheeky, but to change it to an
operational MAMIR, won't that still require two-thirds of the nodes to agree?
Is that going to go through in an update, like 3.10 or something?
How is that going to go through?
Changing it to operational Mimir from economic Mimir,
I'm pretty sure that's just like a thorn-out update.
So we'll probably do that in like 3.11 or something
yeah i i agree because you know for me the operational mirror i don't i don't know maybe
i'm missing something but i actually think that's actually decentralized governance it's just leaner
right it's more like i i think you should be decentralized governance but be as efficient
as possible and i think it's good that if nodes can vote on the fly
like in the moment that um they can change the fee structure if they choose right and because
sometimes cow to your point yeah you don't want people to get apathetic node operators get
apathetic to votes right um they can vote if something really needs to happen and they have
that option do it immediately but um yeah i
think that's great and then it allows you in nine realms to um play with things and experiment and
really dial in the data uh and so you so we can find that really sweet spot everything and then
you know of course with the idea of having individual mameers for maybe like pools specific
pools and choosing prices to me how my brain thinks about it
is actually what you would want to do,
focus on getting the chains delivered,
get all the things you want to get done now,
your big goals.
And then like, I don't know,
down the line when we have like four or five,
six chains, whatever it is added,
then you can dial things in.
You can add little tweaks, little parameters,
maybe a little bit more levers
that are also operational mirrors
that give nodes more utility. But at this time, that would be a huge amount of complexity
and be very distracting when we should be adding more chains, right? So yeah, I agree with you.
I think operational Lemir is the way to go. Yeah, and it totally aligns with the ethos too. It's
like, if you don't care, then you don't't vote and the people that do care vote where it's like economic mimir it requires action from everybody so it's like
it's it's like exactly the way that this kind of vote should be uh so i think the like that's
that's how we're with how we should handle it so i'm kind of done pushing on it because i don't
think that changing the l1 fee is enough like we need to change the trade asset fees too and i'm
really not about to run three different votes uh so yeah that's where we're at with it
um so i'm kind of like on pause with it right now i really would like to see the the revenue go up
now rather than in like two months when this happens or whatever but i guess that's kind of
the world i live in so i think which is which is good like i mean you know it's good that we can't
just like change stuff too. But yeah.
And this is why this space is so good, man.
Because I'm so glad you're up here.
Because you coming up here and speaking in real time.
Understanding your reasons why you want to go to the operational mirror.
I think it makes much more sense.
You know, Discord, sometimes it can be really hard.
The bandwidth to truly understand the reasons why someone wants to do this.
And you explain it in real time.
Just add such crystal clear context why this is such an important move and i totally agree with you
um if i mean if anyone else disagrees i can come up here and say something but uh it makes complete
sense to me and again it doesn't even change governance it just makes store chain leaner and
more dynamic which i think is is the best case it's something about speaking versus typing i
think like i think when you type,
people just skim it and their eyes just glaze over and they just have their own context where
it's like, I can kind of just add whatever flavor I want without it being like a giant wall of text
that you'll just never read. I actually am guilty of that. I mean, I think reading's harder,
right? Because you have to look at text and then your brain has to translate.
And it takes a lot more computational load.
And when I'm tired, you know, my eyes just get real, you know, it's hard.
You know what I mean?
Hearing things, it's a much more.
And then I can hear your inferences, your voice or intonations and understand where you're coming from.
Yeah, space is a way to go.
This is why we're going to do them every week, guys.
And Cal, if you ever have something where you're like, oh, you know, we really going to do them every week guys um and cow if you ever have something where
you're like ah you know we really need to do this and people just don't quite understand where i'm
coming from dude always come up here and state your case because you have you know you're obviously
very respected and uh you made the perfect case right there so um i'm firmly behind that for sure
so yeah man um let's see here uh was, was there anything else, Cal? Uh, did,
is, is there anything else we should know? Yeah. Uh, two second block times, um, two second
block times right around the corner. So that's something that the strange left team is working
on. That's something that's a little more high risk. Cause it's not like, well, okay. There's
other things that we want to ship that are like, okay, we can ship this, but we'll have a Mimir behind it so that we can shut it off if it doesn't work or there's a bug or whatever.
Because the complexity of shipping with Orshan is you really need to kick the system at scale to see some of these edge case problems, like the XRP stuff.
So that's fine when you're talking about like limit orders which is another amazing thing
that we can talk about in a second um but two second block times is one of those things where
it's like okay well we kind of just got to turn it on and uh just like see if it works and see if
there's any problems that arise around it um it's mostly like the more thing i'm worried about most
around that is not really so much like like, the computational load on nodes,
because I think we're mostly fine with it.
Unless you're a bare metal node operator who's, like,
running at, like, 80% capacity right now,
I think all the nodes will be fine computationally.
It's more like the stuff around it where it's, like,
whoever's using things that, like, use the block time in a certain way,
like, you know, you're just assuming that the block time is six seconds, but what if the block time in a certain way, like, you know,
you're just assuming that the block time is six seconds,
but what if the block time isn't six seconds?
What if it's two seconds?
And what if we don't hit two seconds?
What if it's like 2.5?
Like there's going to be a lot of stuff that is like kind of hard to
predict around that.
So it's like,
that's one of those changes that's like coming up real soon.
That's,
you know,
more of a,
all right,
well,
we're just going to have to, you know,
have everyone online when this happens
and just, like, hopefully nothing blows up
and just, like, you know, keep an eye on it.
I think two-second block time is going to be amazing, though,
just in terms of, like, making the chain faster.
It's going to make streaming swaps faster.
ARBs will be able to ARB quicker.
Like, it's just, like, level up around the board.
But it's, like, one of those things that's just, like,'s just like all right like we gotta just kind of do it on mainnet in theory it should 3x if it's
three times faster we should have three times the volume in theory right um dude when when isn't one
of the things that had to be done to get to two second block times didn't t doesn't tss have to
be updated to like dklLS or something like that?
It's kind of separate.
I do think that is a nice thing to do.
And I think there are, like, I don't know.
Very few people understand TSS.
I'm definitely not going to pretend to be one of those people.
So, you know, I want to see DKLS tested in, like, my mainnet for a while first before we do something like that.
Just personal opinion.
Testing, yeah, we need a lot of testing around it.
That's one of those things that makes me nervous, and I have no context to even say what the blind spots are.
Fair enough.
You mentioned Maya doing
the testing our good friends there my protocol the um have they tested the two
second block times have they implemented that themselves I doubt it I don't think
so okay let's talk about lemon orders for a second lemon orders is awesome so lemon orders comes with rapid swaps which so these are limit orders for a second. Limit orders is awesome.
So limit orders comes with rapid swaps.
So this is limit orders on the base layer, which basically means, so it's kind of like
this hybrid order book where all the swaps still go through the AMM, but your assets
can just sit as trade assets for a little bit, and then once your price limit hits,
the swaps go through.
So this is like,
I think it's going to be really great for ARBs,
especially.
I think ARBs are going to be using limits,
limit orders rather than just like,
you know,
trade asset swaps like they do right now.
It's just like a total level up in that,
in that regard.
So pricing is going to be better,
especially for large swaps,
but especially pricing is going to be more accurate.
Cause like right now streaming, like if you do, like if you get a quote for a $2 million swap, it's just kind of like, all right, well, we think that it's going to be this, but we really don't know.
Like the price, you know, if Bitcoin went to, you know, a million dollars today, like obviously you're not going to feel that quote for like 100K or whatever.
So limit orders just gives us better arb.
Like you'll just be able to just get your limit.
Like your swap will be filled off a limit
as part of a streaming swap
instead of just having to stream.
So not only will the two second block times
make streaming swaps faster and more efficient,
but the limit orders will make it
like incredibly more efficient.
So that's great. And then also ruji's order book will build off all of that so it's like you can kind of think it has like
three layers where we have like the v2 style liquidity uni v2 style liquidity on the base
layer amm we have limit orders on top of that and then we have ruji's limit orders on um as like a
third layer to that so it consumes both the v2 liquidity
and the order book liquidity and it has its own order book in the middle that's like separate
liquidity that's like outside of all that so it's like pretty it's it's kind of like building the
same order book but like inside out in two different ways um and once that's all set up
I think it's going to be super efficient and give really good pricing.
But this is just like the next level up in terms of that.
But it also touches all of the swap logic.
And it's one of those things that I'm saying about just like, well, we kind of got a YOLO two-second block times.
But things like the limit order book changes a lot of logic,
but it's one of those things that's permeable.
You can just switch it off.
If there's a bug or whatever and it breaks,
then we just switch back to the old logic and then fix it and then, you know, onwards.
I'm convinced limit swaps and rapid swaps are going to be as,
like those two come out, are going to be as big a deal as streaming swaps.
If volume doesn't take off because of them, I'm going to be shocked.
So I'm pretty excited for those two.
The limit swap, so is it like that's happening on the L1 pools, right?
So a regular user can place a limit swap, or is it just happening on trade assets?
I'm not sure if it's using trade assets, secured assets, but it's happening on the L1.
So I don't see, I mean, yeah, I think a retail user would be able to, yeah, I mean, of course
a retail user would be able to, it just depends on whether interfaces like allow you to or
not basically.
Doesn't mind me the next question.
So the Wallace interfaces are going to have to do something, you know, change their UI to give their users the ability to place the limit order.
Yeah, exactly. It'll just be like a different type. It'll just be like another flag in the memo.
Just like, hey, this is a limit order rather than a market order, which right now every store chain order is a market order or it's a CWOP order if it's a streaming swap, but this is like a third type of order basically.
Cool. So this should be, you know, everyone's worried about, you know, ThorChain, you know,
how we're showing up in quotes on these different front ends. If we can, if we're, if we're able to
show do limit orders, that in itself should help us rise to the top.
If the user wants to place a limit instead of a market order, we should be the only route shown, right?
Or no, do you still see other routes, do you think?
Well, it depends if the pricing is better.
That's really all it is.
All these aggregators, they just compare what the quote is.
So it's like, if our quote's better, then you win.
If it's not better, then you don't win but let me speak for a second on limit orders because
i'm sorry not on tense and like all this stuff because i have some interesting opinions on this
that you know i don't know if anyone's expressed this before or not um i think that okay my thoughts
on like all this intense stuff that's going on right now is i don't see how it's not just
2017 shape shift but with the chain in the middle you know does that make sense to everybody where
you're so with with door chain the difference between door chain and like an intent model
is door chain the liquidity comes from the protocol, comes from liquidity pools. So you have liquidity providers that put money into the pools, and then the pools are what fills a quote.
So when someone does a swap, it's not an individual user liquidity provider that fills a trade.
It's the protocol that does.
So that's how a door chain is decentralized.
Decentralized custody and decentralized liquidity.
Intense is just the first thing. It's just decentralized custody and decentralized liquidity. Intense is just the
first thing is just decentralized custody. Like the actual quote is just like, you're some market
maker and you have like, you know, you have this much Bitcoin, you have this much USDT, whatever.
And then you're just getting these quotes and saying, yeah, I'll fill this user. I won't fill
this user. And it, you know, this user. And it's just not decentralized.
I'm not sure why we're pretending that it is.
The custody of the assets is decentralized.
The liquidity is not decentralized.
So I'm not really sure what to think about that.
It is great.
Does it really fill requirements of what is a DEX? I'm not really sure what
to think about that. Like, how is it that this person is not a regulated, like, sorry, there's
like a, there's like a regulated term for this, a money, sorry, a regulated money transmitter
with the Bank Secrecy Act.
MSB or VASP?
Yeah.
So I don't understand how a liquidity provider in an intent system is not a regulated entity.
Like, to me, that's just like, okay, well, you're just doing the same thing.
It's a blockchain in the middle.
So it's like decentralized?
Question mark.
I don't think it actually is.
So it's like you're directly feeling that user's quote.
You're saying, hey, this user, 0x12345, I'm going to give them this much
Bitcoin for this much USDT. So how is that like, you know, how is that?
I can answer your question. Let's just say they are. They don't give a fuck. Because
what they're going to do is they'll just do it
for a year or two you know milk the bull market make a bunch of money then the regulator will come
you know it takes the regulator a couple years come knock on their door i'm like hey wait a
second you can't do this you you got to be you have to be an msp you have to be a bass oh oops
sorry okay we'll turn it off and that's it no one No one goes to jail. Maybe they get a fine, but they've made X
amount of million. So it's no different. Speeding isn't illegal. Speeding just costs you a few
hundred dollars every time you get caught. Money laundering isn't illegal for the big banks. It
just costs them a billion dollar fine whenever they get caught. So these guys, it's just a
regulatory arbitrage that they know
they can get away with it for a year or two. In the meantime, make a ton of money and they get
shut down, they get shut down. They don't care, right? They're not, this is just a quick buck for
them. So that's what's happening. Now, I don't know if that's near, I don't want to, you know,
start throwing shade on, I don't know, But I know that does happen in the industry.
I don't want to get into pointing fingers who does it.
But that is a real playbook for some of these guys.
Yeah, I know.
I'm just saying that there's a big difference between Thorchain, which is decentralized custodian, decentralized liquidity, and then an intense protocol.
Call it CalSwap.
Call it near. Call it whoever whoever i don't really care it's just like it's it's very even though it's like
the same product for the user i you know like we could have just done that from the beginning
on door chain and made this whole thing a lot simpler you know it's like you could build it
all on the app layer right now if you wanted to the door chain is just like you can just use the
custody framework to build this intense protocol and then just you know you plug in like cumberland on the
end and yeah they'll give you quotes or whatever and maybe they'll do it for a while until like a
regulator comes and uh you know and says hey wait a minute like who's actually providing this
liquidity uh you know and obviously like it comes at the cost of sensor resistance, too, because, like, you know, door chain network is what provides the liquidity, where if you're a market, like, we saw this with chain flip, right?
If you're the liquidity provider and you are servicing bad swaps, like, guess what?
You are directly servicing that, like, swap.
servicing that like swap like there's no way around that so yeah i think it's like it's totally
Like, there's no way around that.
different in terms of just like sensor resistance and defy it's it's cd5 you know it's it's just
like to step up front like like i just want to emphasize that like doorchain is real defy like
there's very few of these that exist uh today and I don't think there's any of them that are going to spring up anytime ever.
So like, yeah, doorchain is real DeFi in terms of like custody and liquidity.
So just like an important thing that I wanted to throw out there where it's like, you know,
that's why I'm also not worried about the fee stuff.
Let's bring up the fees to 15 basis points.
Let's just see what happens for a while.
Say we lose some retail user volume. Like, I'm okay's bring up the fees to 15 basis points. Let's just see what happens for a while. Say we lose some retail user volume.
Like I'm okay with that.
You know,
like it's going to be okay.
There's going to be,
it's a race to the bottom on fees.
Anyway,
we're playing our own game.
So like,
there's no point to undercut ourselves and our own services just in the name
of like trying to win out all these like shrimpy swaps from like,
you know,
a hundred dollars and swappers, you know, we're not making any money shrimpy swaps from $100 swappers.
We're not making any money on those swaps anyway.
I want to keep the cows on a great run here.
But Pragmatic Monkey, I know you got your hand up.
Is there something you want to add to this conversation
about Intense?
Yeah, guys.
Hey, just a quick one on reacting on the intent view of Familiarco.
I don't see it the same way.
I think so.
It's mainly, I think, a definition of what you call intent and where your liquidity comes from.
But what we are building with the order book on Rujira
is effectively a decentralized intent protocol.
An intent at the end is just matching peer-to-peer to will.
Somebody wants to sell at this price,
somebody on the other side wants to buy at this price,
and we can match those two people.
And what we have built with Rujitrade,
which is a 100% on-chain decentralized order book,
is an intent
matching engine, effectively, that allows
us to pull liquidity from
various different sources. And
one of the sources will be the
Torchain-based layer pull via the virtualization
strategy, but we also have
other sources which will be
concentrated liquidity strategies that
live directly on the app layer, and other sources which will be like concentrated liquidity strategies that live directly on the app layer and other sources which are just regular users or can be small or large institutions that
just come and put a limit order at a set price in the order book and sure we can also have like
external market maker comberland or whoever who come and put a quote in the book.
And we don't care.
We cannot discriminate.
That's the key thing at what is decentralized.
We don't know who are the liquidity provider at the end, and we don't care.
All what Registrate does is aggregate all those quotes and then match the best bid with
the best ask.
And whenever the bid cross the ask, another get filled.
And that's all what it does.
And so we effectively make intents.
We have an intents protocol that is fully decentralized
that can take liquidity from any different sources.
It's there and it's coming to Torchain.
And you can call it an intents.
And I think it respects what you mean by decentralized liquidity familiar
code so just wanted to to yeah to share this different view yeah a good point for sure um
i guess i do view the order book a little bit differently than like intense where
like i guess you can think of it like the order book is still like in the middle there you know
what i mean or i feel more like intense is just like,
hey, the user said they want this.
And then, you know, more like the, I don't know.
It just seems way more like serving the user directly
rather than like an actual order book.
No, exactly.
But that's because we misqualify what an intent is.
Everybody like Nier or CoSwap or whoever,
they call that intent. But actually, the person who fill the order is, as you say, like it's a black box. It's not anybody that
can come and fill. It's a restricted amount of professional market makers. And that allow
for discrimination, that allow for deciding arbitrarily
to fill or not an order
or to give a different price
or to capture an arbitrage that they have,
which is usually how they fill those orders.
In our case, the order book
doesn't discriminate any source of liquidity.
Like we cannot do that
by the design of the smart contract
doesn't allow to discriminate.
And it's a fair order book.
And that's a key innovation of what we have built, what Ans has built with Regitrade smart contract and Fynn before that.
It's at a given level of price.
Everybody gets filled pro rata the same way.
There is no discrimination and there is no ordering of, oh, this larger guy is going to get filled first and
then we fill from the biggest to the lowest or the other way around. We don't do that.
Modulo, of course, like a small, like you have necessarily, you have decimal precision impact,
but that's, we talk about 10 power 8 decimals and what happened after that, at some point we have to
cut and so there is some time like on very, very tiny orders there may be some discrimination because of roundings but
that's like that's marginal micro sensors the transaction we are talking about so we have that
and it's fair and it's fully decentralized so it's happening happening on Torchain. And we can call it intent as well,
but it's not intent as what Nier or Coswap would call it.
Yeah, it's the word intent that it just gets to me here
because it just means nothing.
You know what I mean?
Well, it actually means something. That's the thing. Like, people limited the meaning of it
as being some privately filled order.
But if you look at the definition of intent,
I'm pretty sure it's something like manifestation
of wanting something specific.
And that's pretty much it.
Which is why they call it intense.
So, like, I mean, we can call it CD5 Intense,
like whatever.
I think you guys know what I mean.
Exactly.
CD5 Intense.
And we are like properly bringing DeFi Intense.
Yeah.
I think that's great, guys.
Isn't a ThorChain space awesome, guys?
I mean, come on.
How much signal to noise ratio here?
I mean, we're on one side of the pendulum here. I love this stuff. It's always, we always bring the goods here. We have the epic freaking guest today. Familiar Cow, how much time do you have left, man? I want to make sure that we get, squeeze every little bit of the juice we can out of you, bro.
Yeah, I mean, I can stay on for like, you know, 15, 20 more minutes. Any specific topics you guys want to talk about?
Are you done? You don't have anything else to go over um that's all that's on top of my mind i'm sure there's always something so maybe you guys could uh tell me yeah um i'll go first kenton if
you want fall um so how how's the team doing over at niner how's everyone doing like let's do let's
humanize this a little bit you know how's how's orion how's how's the team doing over at Niner? How's everyone doing? Like, let's humanize this a little bit.
You know, how's Orion?
How's the whole squad over there?
Ursa, how are you doing?
I'm feeling really bullish, man.
And I know you guys are just grinding away.
How's the squad looking?
Yeah, we're grinding.
I mean, we've got a bunch of new folks on the team.
Yeah.
I, like, yeah, everyone's, like, everyone's excited.
So the future is looking really nice.
It's a process getting people up to speed on especially what's a very specialized piece of very complicated infrastructure.
But yeah, everyone's very excited around the future of DeFi.
Is Night of Realms done hiring? are you guys still looking for more people
although if there was like you know a rock star that came along i don't think we'd say no but
there's no no plans to bring anyone else on at this point as far as i know i'm really glad you
guys managed to get andrew uh just at least part. That guy is an absolute legend. Um, and so I am
so glad that he'll be still working. Cause when I heard that they're the company got acquired,
I was like, damn, oh, we're going to lose that guy. But sounds like that's not what's happening.
Um, that's awesome, man. That's great.
Yeah, I know. Andrew's sticking around and continuing to do stuff. He's a really valuable
asset to the network. I just a really valuable asset to the network.
I just want to open it to the audience.
If anybody wants to come up to ask Cal any questions, I'm not seeing any requests.
I can give my take on the whole ThorChain front end thing if you guys want.
Sure.
My take on it.
Sure.
Sure, yeah.
Why not?
All right.
My take is, honestly, I don't really care. That's my take on sure sure yeah yeah why not all right my take is um honestly i don't really care
like that's my take it's like all right that's great we could do a decentralized we could do
like a thoracic canonical front end we could not like who cares like i think that the that the
back end infra is much more important and like i think that it's just like yeah it's just like
just a marginal thing i like i i get all's just, like, such a marginal thing.
Like, I get all the points around, like, you know, being able to market it and stuff.
And I guess that is really good.
It's going to be a ton of maintenance to do this.
Like, it just, like, seems like a ton of work to actually do it.
Also, I saw that DoorSwap today shipped out their rune.doorswap.finance, which is absolutely awesome.
And, yeah, I love to see that.
Like, there's so many good community interfaces out there
that it's like, you know,
like, I understand the conundrum.
It's just like, you know,
are we really going to get the next $100 million
of daily volume out of building a new interface
for DoorChain?
I don't think so at all.
You know, so that's kind of just
like my two-second
thoughts on it. I'm not strongly opinionated on it.
If someone built it, then I would use it
myself, you know? Like, why not?
But at the same time, I also support the community projects.
You know, I use Thor Swap
and AsgardX, and I use Leo Dex now.
I've been really liking them lately.
Especially for my Zcash
swaps with Maya.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, for me, it's a risk-reward.
All right, fine.
It doesn't take off, but I don't see us, we don't risk very much trying it.
And there's all the talk about improving the quotes on doorchain for us to quote higher any other front ends.
Maybe the reason Trust and Ledger and all these front ends are not,
why aren't there users taking off on using them?
Maybe the affiliate fees are just too high.
Maybe people don't want to pay 50, 100, 150 basis points to trade.
Those users are going to a centralized exchange anyway.
Like, the users that you're capturing on the trust wallet, on the ledger, especially
ledger.
Ledger charges, like, what, like, 1.5% on their swaps?
Like, those users, they just don't want to, like, they just want something easy to use.
It's like, it's a captive audience for all these, for TrustWallet, for
anything else. If you want the lowest fees, then yeah, you'd probably just withdraw to
your exchange that you bought your crypto on in the first place. So it's like a matter
of convenience thing, I think, a lot of it. But I mean, that's part of it, is making DeFi
convenient. So it's like, I think that a memos front end could definitely make it a lot easier to achieve that.
And, you know, I really wanted to see swaps
on ThorChain.org,
because I think it would just be like pretty convenient
and someone would be able to like come in in two seconds
and do it.
I think it kind of opens up like a whole swap
of like, you know, maintenance and like all this stuff.
But yeah, if someone builds it, like sure,
I would use it myself. Like, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, if someone builds it, like, sure, I would use it myself.
Like, that's fine.
Yeah.
Yeah, can I give a – I'll give my little side here.
That's exactly my vision right there is I want something –
because, you know, I want a simple interface.
And my big idea is, like, Memolus.
Memolus, you know, it's pretty simple as far as I understand.
You know, I'm not a developer.
Very little maintenance maintenance i don't
want to compete now this is just me speaking this isn't kenton or anyone else's i don't want to
compete necessarily interface with like leo decks or thor swap but i want somewhere where i can point
and say hey you want to use thor chain go there and the big problem i have and i've encountered
this and the point is you know as an educator thorChain, I will get flack if I push one interface over there, which I should.
You know, I should be impartial.
They all work really hard.
I don't, because, you know, my role, I have a lot of sway in the community, and I could definitely push favoritism to one interface.
There's actually someone in the audience right now, World Be Free, hello.
right now world be free hello um she actually i had a i did a interview with her and at one point
we had 1300 people um listening live um and i was talking about thor chain i was talking about
rogera i was talking about all the things that are coming and it just drove me crazy in the back of
my mind that i did not have a point that i could just say, go here just to try it. Just go here to make a swap.
And when I, when I'd like at the beginning of the space, like Thorchain, or sorry, Kenton reads off, you know, the list,
like, hey, go to the website, click and choose.
Like, that's really high friction.
I want to be able to just quickly and efficiently, someone who's never heard of Thorchain, don't even understand DeFi, nothing.
I want them to be able to go to an interface, connect, boom, and make a swap. And then we got them, right? And then they maybe can get deeper,
and then they can start learning about more DeFi. And then I think this will result in more users
for like Leodex and ThorSwap and ThorWallet and EdgeWallet and, you know, because all of them
offer different features. That's kind of where my brain goes. If we just have this interface
that we can just promote, and I can just point real simply like go there try it and i'm open to you know how exactly want to do it you
know i don't necessarily have my mind set in stone how this works but i really think us just trying
it let's just see what happens and maybe and now maybe you're right familiar cow maybe uh maybe it
doesn't go well but i think it's an experiment we're trying. And I promise if we can get Memola shipped, I will work my butt off to try and make it work and push more volume to everyone.
I think it's no different than approaching a girl.
Oh, what if she laughs at me?
What if she turns me down?
What if she, you know, so you get shot down, you know, move on with your life.
You know, like the risk reward of having on a front end is so huge, like, all right, doesn't work. All right, nobody uses it. All right, well, and what we lose 30 grand, you know, 50 grand, you know, a couple months of playing with it. All right.
like it's not like it's gonna like destroy Thorchain and ruin the whole protocol like the
it can only you know the probability of it taking anything away from Thorchain is so
ridiculously low that it it's just a no-brainer to do because it really is just upside so um
um yeah I don't yeah to me it doesn't that's a good point i don't think it takes away
from anything like it's just but the thing is like stacking another it's just like hey here's
another one like like people come up to me sometimes and it's like hey i built this interface
like can i like add you know can you tweet about it can you like you know advertise it on door
chain.org and stuff and i'm just like dude like I don't know I think about this problem in a
different way maybe because I'm just like well there there isn't like there's these users out
there it's like hey which interface should I be using it's just like they just want to go somewhere
and get the best rate and you know they like you know they're using centralize exchange like
whatever like who cares like there isn't like these like these users out there that are, in my opinion, maybe there are, that are just constantly like, hey, let me try out this new brand new thing.
I guess if it's store chain branded, it kind of makes a little bit of a difference because
it's the quote unquote official.
But what actually makes it more official than anything else?
It's just as unofficial as anything else.
I don't know.
Maybe that's not true because it's on the.org but
like in actuality there's really nothing that separates it other than like whether it collects
a fee or not which you know it is good in its own respect but you know is there really that much of
that type of user out there uh yeah i think it the official does make a big difference because
it's storechain.org and then um you know the second order effect is that people will buy Rune,
want to invest in Rune.
And the front end is just banking on the fact
that they're going to milk the ThorChain audience.
I mean, they're not actually adding any value to ThorChain.
The whole point of getting ThorChain integrated
into these other wallets and websites
is to tap into new audiences.
If all these front ends are just, you know,
stepping over each other to try and capture the same audience,
like that's not growing Thor chain. I mean, we just do it ourselves.
Our own front end would be fee-less and we,
our own audience can just trade much cheaper than paying the high affiliate
fees, all these other front ends, just trying
to capitalize on our own audience.
The reason these affiliates, these front ends should be charging the higher fees, because
they're using that money to go get a new audience, to go reach new people, to go find those people
that want to use their product. And I mean, there's millions of people in crypto
to tens of millions of people that are already in crypto, already have wallets, are already,
you know, for lack of a better term, crypto natives. We've, Thorpe's barely scratched the
surface on reaching any of them. And then what about the S adoption curve?
We've got 10% of the world is in crypto.
What about the next 80% of the world coming to crypto?
What are they going to use?
How are they going to interact?
I'm not saying the Thorchain front end is going to get the next 80% of the world's population.
That's not what I'm saying at all.
But maybe a little bit.
And Thorchain front it's just like any
other front end out there. It's just another way for people to interact with ThorChain.
And, you know, we want ThorChain to be in every wallet, in every front end. So, you know, having
a ThorChain one is just, we're just adding to the mix, but at least we can monetize our own brand,
right? And like Patriot said, we have somewhere to send people.
We've got thousands of Thorchads.
Now we can give them a business card.
We can give them something to sell.
When we do, you know, PR or marketing or whatever,
we have a call to action.
Come to our website, right?
So, yeah, there's, I just can't see how this can hurt us.
It's just so much more more positives than negatives with this.
What do you guys think about the website, by the way? Is it good? Bad? Do we hate it? We love it.
Oh, no, I think. Yeah, I think it's. Yeah. Actually, I'm glad you asked, because I hope you didn't take it as I think the current website sucks.
Not at all. I think it's great for information for, for information. Absolutely. Like don't, that shouldn't change. Um, we just need to add the, you know, app.4 chain. Um,
that's all. Yeah. No, but like, is there, is there any actual feedback on, on, on the website?
Like, do we, do we like it? Do we, do we hate it? Is there something that we think we could add?
That's not just like, yeah, obviously like a swap app is like a totally different thing, but like
anything that people want to see on the website that just doesn't exist there right now,
better stats,
dashboard, I don't know.
You know, I haven't checked it in a while.
Is there a link maybe to RuneBond?
That might be good.
Yeah, I think I added them to the ecosystem page.
Perfect. Awesome.
I don't know, man. I think it's really
good. You know, ThorChain's
a big beast. It's a big girl, so learning about all the aspects,
it takes a lot of work.
It's hard to make something
look good yet fully encompassing
when it's this big,
and you've managed to do that. In my opinion,
I think it looks solid. I think it looks
clean. I think it looks professional.
Yeah, man. I like it.
Cool, cool. I guess one other
thing, which I've never,
which I'm just like thinking of right now,
and I'm just like, I haven't really talked to anybody about this yet.
So let me hear your guys' initial takes on this.
So I'm feeling like the incentive pendulum is one of those areas
that should be revisited over the next couple of months,
just because I think we know that the V2 liquidity model
is kind of broken with streaming swaps.
V2 style liquidity is just not the way forward.
Can I stop you for a sec?
Can I stop you for a sec?
Can you explain to us what is V1 liquidity, V2 liquidity?
What is V1 liquidity, V2 liquidity?
Can you explain that?
Yeah, so V2 style liquidity is Uniswap V2 style liquidity, so the V2 version of Uniswap.
It's an automatic market maker, an AMM, that uses an XYK price curve for trade.
So it is not concentrated liquidity like uni v3 is
so uni v3 has these so liquidity providers put their liquidity in in like a price band and say
i'm going to provide liquidity between this price and this price and then outside of that there's
no liquidity outside of that so it's like i'm not going to pretend to understand it a thousand percent, but UniV2 is kind of unbounded where the price can go.
You provide liquidity from every price band as a liquidity provider from zero to infinity.
Anyway, so that is what Uni V2 style liquidity is.
And Uni V3 is just a much more efficient way to do it.
But it requires this active LP where you need someone who's a quote unquote professional LP to come in.
Doorchain, we don't have that.
We have these passive LPs.
They provide liquidity.
Now, most of the liquidity is just protocol-owned liquidity.
It's locked there. It's not owned by any individual user.
So, it's quite capital inefficient,
like, Unity 3 is much more capital efficient,
and limit orders kind of satisfy that a little bit.
You know, it just builds on top of the Unity 2 style pools
that we have, so it makes the Unity2 style more efficient
without us having to like re-engineer all of our liquidity.
But the whole point is that we have this system
that's on top called the incentive pendulum
that directs rewards between liquidity providers
and the nodes.
But like, especially with RUG and secured assets
being like much more of a thing and trade assets and these assets
are secured outside of the pools the system that was in place which is actually one of the systems
that i thought was genius that you know brought me into the door chain and i was like wow this is
like pretty incredible how they you know use the balance of the liquidity versus the security
to balance the rewards i thought that was an amazing idea.
And, you know, if we were staying on the old system,
then it would make sense.
But, you know, I think more and more liquidity is just going to be filled by limit orders
and just kind of like the pseudo order book
that's on top of ThorChain.
And we're, you know, we have a decentralized network now.
Like, it's not just like, you know, it's not at the scale that it was a couple of years ago.
Like, it's a very credibly decentralized network.
Probably one of the most decentralized networks that's out there.
And we can be, we don't have to have, like, the hard economic security stance that we did in the past.
So that also comes with, like, that's great.
And we've already moved in that direction.
And, like, nodes have already, like, signaled that that's the way to go.
Especially with, like, you know, all the app layer stuff that's happening,
which I think is a thousand percent the way to move forward and accelerate and keep shipping,
especially, like, real DeFi products.
But I do think that one thing that's forgotten about is the incentive pendulum.
Because it's like, all right, great.
Then we're shipping all this stuff
and we have all these rewards,
but we're still sending the rewards out
based on the balance of V2 style liquidity to security,
which doesn't really make sense.
But I also don't have a better answer
on what we should do yet.
So maybe that's just what I should
kind of leave everyone with is like,
how do we re-engineer this?
Like, what should we do?
I'm sure Chad would have his own answer of what to do.
I'm sure other people would have their own thoughts.
Is it like fixed?
Like 75% goes to nodes, 50%?
Like, I don't know.
Like, what the heck do we do?
That's kind of a question that's just like lingering in my mind.
I don't really have an answer to, but it feels like it should change. change with the change of security posture it feels like it kind of needs to change like
rune is not the same asset that it was like a couple years ago when the um when the network
was launching that just kind of like necessitated this um but kenton you want you can okay i'll go
um all right so and i wasn't i've been an lp for the
longest time you know chaos net uh and lp for me was actually quite lucrative in the very beginning
um ever since we added savers and synth leverage i mean it just really went off a hill so this is
what my mind does i think two ways of doing this okay um either and they both work i think um right now as you say cal pol consists of most
liquidity in the pools or at least you know bitcoin you could transition to a pol system
primarily and lps could be deprecated i mean obviously you wouldn't force them out of the
pools because they're they're still subject to the synth leverage um or how i think of it is
because you rightly say that the um pendulum does not work because with secured assets the pendulum
is not going to swing as it would have because it's no longer just a direct relationship between
security and liquidity providers you either what you could do is you take that pendulum and you fix it um i don't know what the
ratio would be let's just say you do 50 50 okay what happens then well lps kind of have a different
deal right relative to um node operators and bond providers they a bond provider in my opinion has
far less risk when it comes to um you know the assets there's no permanent loss blah blah blah blah
they earn rune on their rune um things of that nature lps they're subject to that and so let's
say ruggiero which i firmly believe will be is absolutely massive and you have huge amounts of
liquidity then the market will find a sweet spot if you locked it at 50 of how how much LP people would do that. Because let's say
LPs, like the ones that are skittish, like, man, I don't like impermeable loss, they leave,
the pool shrinks. And I think we should keep POL in there anyway, by the way, but the pool rings.
But then there's going to be a certain point where there's tons of rewards going to the pools
and people deploy their liquidity there. You could do it that way um i don't know but one thing i want to make
sure we do is we can the best we can is take care of the lps that have been there for 2021
and i mean we're not going to force anyone obviously but make the rune price go up and so
that the synth leverage you know that's better and then they can if they choose to withdraw safely
so from my mind i'll try i'm sorry i was long-winded on this either do pol or do some maybe concentrated liquidity model
i don't know enough about that to have an informed opinion on the v3 stuff or you fix that pendulum
and you make it static i don't know what you guys think about that that's what my mind does
yeah anyone saying oh let's say yeah yeah i think it needs to change too um um
to what i don't know because like if i think i think third chain bull was saying just
send zero rewards to the pools if i understood them correctly um because he feels like it's
going to be all all order books and uh yeah i tend to agree um because it's going to be all order books. And I tend to agree because it's just order books,
just more capital efficient, right? You don't have to worry about a permanent loss.
But if there's any benefit of the Thorify stuff is that now we've got all this POL,
right? We've got these, actually, I forget how much is it? Is it a hundred million
in the pools owned by the protocol? No, definitely not. How much we have in the pools owned by the protocol. No, definitely not. How much do we have in the pools?
60 million total, let's call it 75% is POL.
So I don't know, 35, 40 million in POL.
Okay.
So like, I mean, that's acting as a buyer of last resort, right?
So like, let's say when markets crash,
like when you see a 2008 crash and stock markets crash,
it's because market makers are all pulling their bids. They're all withdrawing their limit orders.
And those limit order books dry up.
They go, and then you get these huge spreads,
right, there's huge gaps.
And then that's why markets crash.
Whereas with an AMM,
you've got this always on constant market maker,
and now it's owned by the protocol it is never
ever withdrawing it's it's theirs for good um so it can act as a backstop so that when these
market makers are all using the order books on Thor chain if they all pull their bids for whatever
reason we can still rely on the amm it's acting as that buyer seller of last resort.
And so I think it's great to keep it. But then if we do keep it, then how do we deal with
impermanent loss? It's got to make some kind of money. So it's not just because impermanent loss
could just keep grinding it down. It's got to get some fees.
So in that sense, I like the idea of keeping it. I do like the idea of at least offering the users
to pool if they want, you know, it's a free market.
If somebody wants to pool, let them.
So in that scenario, I would like to, you know,
get rid of the synth leverage and, you know,
just have the pools just be regular
so that they're easier to understand like any other liquidity pool. And then, you know, if we are going to
rely on order books, you know, do we need to even waste our time with concentrated liquidity,
you know, a V3 cell pool? I don't know. You know, maybe it's one of those things that,
Yeah, it's nice to have, but just whenever we have time type thing.
yeah, it's nice to have, but just, you know, whenever we have time type thing.
But if we are relying more on these order books, which are eating up secured assets, taking up that space,
we do need the fees to be weighted towards the nodes and bond providers to keep the nodes high.
We need yield there. nodes, and bond providers to keep the nodes high, right?
We need yield there.
Yeah, because what I worry about is Rune goes way up,
and then all of a sudden nodes are getting no rewards.
That's like, you know, everything goes to LPs,
but the LPs is like mostly the system itself. It just seems weird that that would happen,
but that's like the way system is configured currently.
So I don't know.
There's something to think about.
Nothing that we need to do right now.
But also, some of these
LPs that don't have synth leverage, like
the XRP pool,
USDT on Binance Smart Chain,
these are really good pools. And if anyone was an LP
before Dwarf5 stuff,
I know I was.
Some of these pools are pretty productive.
They make quite a decent
chunk of change. It's just the exacerbated and impermanent loss is like really what killed it so
yeah right and then also um well how my mind thinks of it guys is we ultimately have to decide
do we want lps or not right like do you go to a system where you have almost like all pol
and then then you kick the awards mostly to the nodes and then maybe you have like a siphon
system where you take a percentage of the total rewards and you just make constant liquidity adds
to the pools to deepen them as necessary and then that's configurable by mimir but um
oh son of a what was i gonna say um
i gonna say um shit i lost it damn it this is so complicated uh what was i gonna say it was good
too um oh uh also we also have this don't we have it where we made a recent vote where we have an
arbitrary slant towards the nodes right kenton if i'm mistaken like right now rewards are a little
node heavy because the thinking was we want nodes to make more money so that more rune gets sucked into the bond providers and the nodes themselves to increase the rune price to help the LPs, right?
I think that was the thinking.
Well, actually, it's sort of that, but it was more like us excluding the trade assets.
So we're not counting some of the assets that we're custodying.
So they were counted previously, but they're not being counted now because they're not
part of the pool.
So as part of the incentive pendulum, we only consider the pools and the security instead
of all of the assets that we're custodying.
But isn't what Peter's talking about, didn't we already tweak these?
We did tweak the incentive pendulum a few months ago.
We changed the, instead of measuring effective security,
it's total security or vice versa.
Oh yeah, that's true too.
Yes, I forgot about that.
Yeah.
And which did weigh further towards nodes.
So that's what you're referring to, right, Patriot?
That is correct, yes.
And so it's like, we have to choose our vision here.
Do we want to go with lps which
i think works i really do think that works because guys i did really well my litecoin um
lp was just banging right i mean savers unfortunately it it just really ended it
uh i i saw nothing but but red after that unfortunately but with the original like the og
liquidity system it worked
great for me um i just know everyone's really jaded but my argument would be and this is just
it's just me speaking from experience that it worked like i was an lp and i was happy and i was
green a lot this was 2021 2022 and then you know sabers and then it was just it was nothing but teeth grinding after that yeah so you know i just it
could go either way i mean i i love that my lps i want to make sure i take care of them um but do
we go lp do we keep the model which i think it works but if we do that my opinion is we have to
lock the incentive pendulum and then after that we just go all out ham out for for volume um but
i really like the pol the pol is a godsend
as the as the lp of last resort i think kenton's right on that so i i think either model works
honestly i don't i just don't know which one's optimal i really don't i mean because to me it
kind of feels like at this point like we just ship limit orders and see where we're at like
you know we check it another six months and then you know if things and that's what that's what we've always done, right? It's like, if things are broken,
like, then we go and fix it. Like right now nothing's broken, but it's just like one of
those things that's like, all right, well, all of us know this doesn't really feel 100% right,
but it's like, nothing's broken. So it's like, and there's also nothing that we can't just change
the parameters on to do a fix if we needed to, you know, like if nodes are just like atrophying
because, you know, I mean, this like atrophying because you know i mean
this is also in the case that rune is quite high so maybe this isn't really even a problem like
maybe i'm just like i'm making this up and that's that's like maybe best case scenario is like oh
man boohoo the node reward is so low because rune is so high you know but it's like all right maybe
that's a good problem to have at that point um and we could just solve it like you know so maybe
it's not that big of a deal but anyway i, I just wanted to bring it up. Yeah. And you know what I should mention,
I'm sorry, Kenton. I am partial to trying Maya Protocol's design. I know a lot of the concerns
was double dipping, but having LPs been able to bond their liquidity units, then ubiquitizes the
reward income for them. Because an LP, which kind of sucks,
if I'm a Bitcoin, well, Bitcoin pool is always banging, but let's say I'm an AVAX LP, right?
If there's no swaps, there's arbitrage, there's bots, and that's one thing. But if there's not
a lot of juice to be squeezed, then you don't get a lot of rewards. But by being able to bond LP
units, that ubiquitizes the income for LPs and makes it better.
Because if let's say it's a heavy Bitcoin swap day, as it usually is,
well then, you know, at least LP on their side is getting something.
So that model, I think actually works.
But yeah, you know, again, I'll let it go.
Well, just, but I don't want to speak for TCB, but I'm pretty sure this is his point is that, you know, it's if the V2 liquidity model worked, then all these other players wouldn't be moving away from it.
Right. With V3, you know, concentrate. Like now, I guess there's a V4 coming out, you know, intense.
That's, you know, order books like the like any, you know, if you think about v3 the concentrated liquidity is
is kind of like trying to introduce an order book on on a liquidity pool um so if this is where
you know the you know the market is moving we should move too right we should move towards
that as well and you know not you know not worry or rely so much on the V2 liquidity model.
And we should move forward with everybody else.
Yeah.
Sorry, just one last thought, and then I'll hop off around this.
So, yeah, I do hear what you're saying.
So the reason why these uni pools exist in the first place is because you can't build a decentralized order book on Ethereum or really a decentralized order book, period, from at least all the dev friends that I have that have said that.
So that's the reason why, like, yeah, we couldn't just move to, like, an additional order book and just call it a day there.
Yeah, so that's just, like, one point around it.
But also, like, it's really nice to have
like really deep pools of room like room is like one of the most liquid crypto assets like period
which is kind of crazy uh so it's like oh it's a big strength that's there and like that that's
kind of why i like the approach just like just keep iterating on top and it is kind of a jenga
tower in some in some case like in some respects but you know
it's like
we'll put limit orders on we'll see where we're at
and we'll just keep iterating like maybe we add
V3 on top like
maybe we can just keep iterating and just like
see like nothing's broken so it's
it's just like alright we gotta get better pricing
but you know we need to keep the core decentralized
too so if it's like if you have the
order book at the core you know is it still the same network that it was before and maybe that's okay but we need to keep the core decentralized too. So if you have the order book at the core,
is it still the same network that it was before?
And maybe that's okay, but we need to keep it decentralized too.
So that's not possible.
That's the core of the whole thing.
So if that's not decentralized,
then the network isn't really worth much anyway.
So back to your... The asset has changed a lot since the beginning.
Rune is very different than it was a couple years ago.
I think everyone can see that.
I definitely see it.
I just want to address your Jenga tower analogy.
It only really becomes a Jenga tower if we're introducing leverage.
And yeah, if these features aren't individually are fine, like it doesn't expose the protocol to any systemic risk, then we can keep adding them on top of each other and the tower should be strong.
It's only if we start introducing some kind of funny business into features that require this or that to happen, then it starts making it unstable.
that to happen then it starts making it unstable but you know in my mind if we have a you know a
few different ways to interact with liquidity on door chain it should actually make it more stable
because we're addressing different parts of the market um does that make sense yeah i didn't i
didn't mean jenga tower as in like the infragile sense i meant more of just like just section on
top of each other and then you know it it works, you know, it's like, don't break the V3 liquidity model,
just put limit orders on top,
which kind of satisfies sort of what UniV3 does
just in a different,
it's like different limitation of the same thing.
But it's like, we have that flexibility
because we have our own chain.
So it's like, we can experiment a little bit more,
but it's like not moving to a direct order book
or direct V3.
Maybe that comes in the future.
Maybe we still can't compete
and then we got to do that too. But's like you know there's a lot of other
solutions that are being tried uh in different ways so it's like you know i you know i i don't
see the you know the feet to the fire type thing of like yeah we need to do something right now i
don't think you guys do either i don't think anyone does really i think that you know things
are on a good path right now and uh yeah, I hope this just like communicated that to everybody.
Like things are solid.
People are shipping.
We got good things to look forward to.
New chains, faster block times, you know, just general bug fixes, outbound fee improvements.
And then just on the flip side, more integrations, like, you know, the stuff that we've always done.
And then, of course, like RUJI shipping stuff.
I'm really excited about lending especially.
And one thing I didn't touch on at all is that I think swaps are cool, but at the end
of the day, nobody cares about swaps.
Let's be real.
People that are into crypto, they don't really want to trade.
They're traders, but a lot of us, they would much rather borrow than trade.
And that's just evidence by how big Aave is and how well...
Look at Morpho on Coinbase and stuff like that.
They're absolutely killing it.
So it's like, we have this big decentralized custody framework.
Let's do some cool DeFi stuff.
None of this Thor5 fuckery.
Let's get back to it and keep shipping some real DeFi.
So that's why I'm super bullish on Rujiji, because they're able to just, like, lightning speed ship.
And, yeah, Hans is the goat.
And, yeah, we're going to get there.
Well, let me ask you this, Cal.
Okay, we have a traditional lending product on Thorchain, and it's a huge hit.
It's a huge success. I agree. Thorchain has always been my view on Thorchain. And it's a huge hit, huge success. I agree. Thorchain,
it's always been my view of Thorchain. It's going to be the most secure custodian in the world. And
there's a lot of value to that. But for me, one of the reasons I think it's so secure is that
economic security, the bond. And it's been a long, long going debate about removing the hard cap
so we can scale, right? If we've got all this demand for, maybe we have a billion dollars in
demand for deposits for loans, can we secure that with a hundred million bond? What do you think?
Should we remove the hard cap completely and just go hog wild,
you know,
let the buyer beware?
The store chain should be fine.
You know,
we're decentralized enough.
The nodes aren't going to do anything.
Do you think it should be a metered approach?
Maybe still increase the cap?
Yeah.
What are your thoughts there?
Yeah.
I mean,
that's kind of where we're at is the metered is the metered direction
where it's like,
we have very,
we have a ton of room right now.
Maybe in the future we don't and just kind of like reevaluate when we get there.
I think if we get there, then it'll be like a no-brainer.
Let's increase it.
Like let's keep going.
And I think that the network is 100% decentralized enough to custody a lot, lot more than it does today.
Like I don't think there's much of a much of a problem with that it's more just like um like i'm much more worried about like security stuff like you know
a bug that you can drain funds out of the pool or something like that not that i think that there's
something like that that exists but like i'm much more worried about that type of thing than like
node operator collusion collusion or the theoretical scenario of someone buying up a bunch of Rune,
bonding a bunch of nodes to do it.
Like I would like to see us, you know,
raise the bond cap as in like more than 120 nodes.
We scale that up a bit.
We get more nodes that more node operate.
It's really more node operators because more nodes doesn't actually do
anything, you know?
It just more because you
know if someone's running it's the same five people running 20 nodes versus everyone running
one node each it's the same so there's some bigger operators in the network there's some there's a
lot of really small operators in the network if i knew who they all were it wouldn't be taking me
this goddamn long to get this you know min fee vote through i have no idea like there's nobody
that can control any of this stuff.
Like, it's pretty clear that this is a decentralized network.
And, you know, just one of the most decentralized networks in general,
as it should be because it actually custodies real assets.
It's, you know, the most secure decentralized custodian.
So, yeah, I think we should just custody more assets on the chain.
Like, I think that there's, you know, there's a mix.
I like the node culture too.
It's like there's doxed entities, like there's Nine Realms, obviously.
We run some nodes.
There's other entities who are semi-doxed.
You know, I don't think that there's anyone who could even try and attempt to do this
without, you know, going to prison or someone finds out who they are or whatever.
I just don't think it's...
We're at the scale, I think we're already at that scale where that's not really possible
if someone were to try that type of attack.
If we scale up the node community even more, especially just by making it more attractive
to Bond Rune and that type of thing, I, yeah, I think it just kind of becomes a,
like, a no-brainer to just keep increasing that cap.
So I think, yeah, you always keep, like,
the caps on it to keep it from,
the system from, like, yeah, okay,
we can't custody a trillion dollars,
but even if there were a trillion dollars in there,
like, I don't see how you could steal that
in a credible way that you could actually get away with it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does.
Yes.
Yeah.
Especially if the yields are high, right?
And that's giving you incentive not to do it.
And I think if there's a trillion dollars in the lending protocol,
how much yield is coming off into the bond?
They're paying some APY on that.
It's not just free security.
If it's just zombie assets that we're custodian, sure.
But the assets on the network are productive.
They're producing some type of yield.
So I think while it's not directly as correlated as it was before,
with just the AMM and that's the only thing that's on the chain,
it is in some way still correlated like not as directly but there is some correlation and i don't think we're ever going to run into a scenario where it's like sub dollar rune you know
40 billion of of like lending assets and like you know j JP trying to, you know, convince Nine Realms to collude,
to run off with the money. Like, you know, I just, I don't ever see that scenario happening
or anything like it. I agree. I don't see that happening. And particularly since I've met Nine
Realms, many of the guys yourself, including real life, you're all just absolutely stellar
human beings. And man, I, I know, I know you said you want, you had to go like 20 minutes
and we're just keep asking you questions.
But dude, thank you so much for coming up.
And man, just hearing your voice
because you have such good knowledge
about what's going on
and you have really good reasons
for what you're proposing, man.
Obviously you're a busy guy
and we want the devs devving.
But man, if you want to ever come back
and ever speak your mind, please do.
Because you just saying all what you said during this space,
I think just goes a long way to make the community feel good.
Because a lot of questions I get is just like, hey, what's Nine Realms doing?
Like there's ambiguity there.
And, you know, I talk with Nine Realms a little bit.
I talk with you a little bit, but, you know, I'm not in the team like you are.
So, dude, again, I just want to say thank you so much for giving us so much of your time.
I appreciate it.
And it's a blessing having you here.
Yeah, you too, guys.
Thank you so much for running this space.
Yeah, if it's not weekend, not evening, which is maybe the hardest thing to ask for from a lot of people who don't work in this industry.
from a lot of people who like don't work in this industry uh it's like yeah i i'm i'm not trying to
like you know put it all my time into this because it already sucks up uh most of my time so whatever
free time i have left i'm trying to try to chill so you know i'm still around i always read the
discourse i know what's going on i got i'm tapped in so if you guys are listening to this space then
you're tapped into so um yeah i mean subscribe to us on um uh on rss feeds that's it's on spotify it's on
uh wherever you get your podcasts apple podcast wherever so it's a thor chain weekly live and
thanks for uploading all that stuff by the way and uh yeah let's get it you're welcome buddy and
uh yeah thank you so much and if you ever want to come into a space, just let me or Kenton know, and we'll make one happen.
Doesn't matter what day of the week. We will make sure your voice and your opinions get out there, brother.
Yeah, no worries. I mean, I can just host for myself, too. You guys don't have to worry about it. But cool, guys.
All right, no, I really do appreciate it. All right, catch you guys later.
I really do appreciate it.
All right.
Catch you guys later.
Thanks, Kyle. Take care, buddy.
Thanks, Kyle.
Take care, buddy.
With the coke,
I'm going to give you a hand up.
I hope you weren't waiting to talk to Kyle.
I don't know if he just left.
No, I'm still here.
Yeah, I was waiting to speak to him.
But it's okay.
No, no, it's okay.
Because it doesn't matter.
If you get the questions out to the community,
that's all that matters.
So I was, I don't know,
since I was trying to speak to him,
I will speak to you guys and the community.
I was, I think he is kind of,
now he cannot defend himself,
but I think he's underestimating
the power of the front end,
power of us trying to promote ourselves,
especially when the token price is low.
And the ThorChain is a unique project, a unique protocol. When it's like a SUI or ETH, people can come on top of there. Okay, now we have, yes, we have now RUGIRA and RUGIRA
Alliance and you can go to Snet and they're there. But the thing is that I don't want to say that we alienated
the retail users, but I think the way that the business is set up,
like business to business, kind of,
we have all those affiliate type of stuff that's going on,
and it's mainly for the the wallets not for the users
yeah i think one thing we're missing we're missing out a lot of this uh real real real power
that could help that we have so many people that are active passionate and we just every day we
come come on x we we make our post to like say like, hey, this is going good, that is going good, look,
upgrade this, these upgrades are coming, and then we get floated from the post, like,
oh, token price is down, like, oh, glorify this, like, we lack of those, like, kind of tools to
engage people, like, hey, come to our front and use this.
Like bonding is, I feel like it's kind of like an issue as well.
It's a little bit complex for everyday user to come in, get the yield, be happy.
That's the only point that actually that I wanted to voice for the familiar gal,
that we should be more, even if you don't want to make all the small fees happen because there's not a lot of like money behind there there's not apy behind all those small
fees we want to make sure we have the good balance between the covering the most of the decentralized
swaps but also keep in mind that we don't want to undercut us. But what we definitely want to have is all those soldiers,
all those users that is going to promote blockchain
and have tools to come and get the part of this API.
And I think we're kind of like missing this.
We are missing front end and we're missing easy bonding.
That's what I at least see.
So, yeah, I agree with you.
I think you're preaching to the choir as far as me and Patriot are concerned.
But, you know, we've got ThorSwap up as a speaker.
And I just saw their headline on their ThorChain front end.
I haven't had a chance to read the article or post or anything.
I don't know if the ThorSwap, if you want to jump up and talk.
Maybe you have some thoughts you want to add to this.
Yeah, it's just Paper
on the ThorSwap account.
Hey Paper.
Hey Paper.
I'm talking a lot, buddy.
Yeah, I figured
how, you know, a rare guest
I'll let him have
this opportunity to chat with the community.
But yeah, thanks for the shout out.
I guess it's prevalent to the previous topic you guys were talking about
in terms of needing a front end to really showcase
what everything blockchain is capable of.
And yeah, I mean, we've been building with the community
since single chain ChaosNet.
you know, single chain ChaosNet, so definitely heard all the feedback.
So definitely heard all the feedback.
And, you know, I would say the team and I, we just, you know, did a few more all-nighters.
We just launched our 4th Swap Roon Edition.
So yeah, open for feedback, but essentially what it is, it's a dedicated 4th Chain interface built for the Room community and obviously any users who want to try out ThoughtChain.
So it's got all of the features that we've built over the years for ThoughtChain.
And we've also, I think a big part of it is obviously showcasing what Torchain is capable of as well as highlighting Roon.
So, you know, we're open to a lot of feedback, right?
But something we did obviously is have Bitcoin Roon be the default pair.
And we are making it 50% of our fees for buying Roon and Tcy.
That also stacks with, you know, our referral program, which as you didn't know, we were the first to build the ThoughtChain referral program, which taps into the multi-affiliate system of ThoughtChain.
So essentially, you can generate your own referral link.
So it could be room.thoughtswap.finance.
or that's the link to the Roon edition, by the way.
Oh, that's the link to the room edition, by the way.
And yeah, you could encourage users to try out blockchain
and you would also earn 20 to 40% of commissions
on the fees, or you can pass on the discounts to the user
which will stack with the price of a cheaper fee
on buying Roon and TCY.
So yeah, we'll do a lot of feedback from the community
on whether this is something that you guys feel is useful
to showcase blockchain and all the features.
And we've added links to RuneBond, RuneTools,
a bunch of really great community tools in the menu as well.
But yeah, we just launched it.
So definitely open to a lot of feedback. And yeah, thanks. That's awesome. And I know Leo
Dex also, I think on the previous two spaces ago or something, they had talked about doing something
like that similar as well. So I really think that's great. To talk about something with the
Koch set, because one thing I want to defend cow a little bit is when he was thinking interface he was coming from the mindset that um you know it's a lot of wallet
maintenance he's talking like a full throttle full throated um interface and that's a lot of work like
leodex thor swap insta swap um seeing you know all of our friends they do a lot of work and
when i think about an interface for ThorChain specifically,
that's why in my mind, I say, just keep it really simple, like doing something with like
memoless. And that way we don't cut into the feature set of other interfaces that want to
also have those things. The way I think about it is near to me, there exists a Coca-Cola
manufacturer. And Coca-Cola, obviously they manufacture that and
they send it to all the stores and people buy the stores. And then there's a premium there.
If you go to the manufacturer place, you can buy Coca-Cola there and it's considerably cheaper,
but of course, you know, you, the inconvenience of driving there and then you only can have Coca-Cola,
right? But there is a, you get a premium,
a price premium for only getting Coca-Cola there. You obviously can't buy any other soda. You can't
buy any groceries, obviously, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's kind of how I think of Memolist,
right? It's very simple. We have a simple product and, you know, whether it's, you know,
fee-less, which I think is fine, whatever you want to do, that's kind of why I want to make
the interface just something very simple that you can
point someone to. They can
get a swig of Coca-Cola, right?
And then maybe if they want to try some other
products, you know, then they go and go
to Leodex, ThorSwap, EdgeWallet,
Instaswap, you know, ThorWallet,
whatever it is, right?
That's kind of where my mind goes. That way,
we're on-ramping people, but when people
want to do specific things,
they want to get deeper into the weeds,
then they have a means to do that.
They go to interfaces.
So it's for me,
one thing I want to be absolutely clear
is my idea is to make everyone more money,
you know, get on ramp new blood into our system.
And then these people eventually graduate,
gravitate, excuse me me to the other interfaces
where they enjoy the more feature complete suite you know regera all the stuff Thank you.
