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Chad's Lounge - Picking Hans's Brain
Recorded: Sept. 27, 2025 Duration: 1:34:42Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorChain and Rujira are set to transform the decentralized finance landscape with innovative projects, including a new token launch and partnerships aimed at enhancing user experience and accessibility. The emphasis on self-custody, community ownership, and permissionless access highlights a significant shift towards democratizing finance, offering users unprecedented opportunities for growth and yield.
Full Transcription
Perfect. Okay. I got a heart excellent guys welcome everybody thank you for piling in
um this is going to be a good episode you guys today thank you to everyone who's
joining us live if you are listening to the recording of the space i want you to know we
are someone who we we me kenton thor chain we do not waste your time we you to know we are someone who, me, Kenton, ThorChain, we do not waste your time.
We respect your time. We are thankful that you are here. And with that, let's get this show started.
Okay, guys. ThorChain is a decentralized exchange that enables you to swap Bitcoin with thousands
of other cryptocurrencies, okay? There is no KYC on ThorChain. It's all permissionless.
ThorChain's token is called RUNE that is spelled
R-U-N-E. You don't need to buy or hold RUNE to place a swap on ThorChain. ThorChain has another
token. It's called T-C-Y, Tango Charlie Yankee. This is like a preferred stock. You get 10% of
the protocol's revenue. You can swap to this token as well. You don't need to bond it.
protocols, revenue, you can swap to this token as well. You don't need to bond it.
To swap on ThorChain, you go to ThorChain.org, click on swap, and you'll see all the wallets
and websites that you can use. And you can choose the interface that is best to you.
This will be changing soon. ThorChain is getting its own interface, and the link to this will be swap.thorchain.org. One more time, swap.thorchain.org.
If you go to Patriot Sounds right now, we have the beta version.
And that link will remain on the Patriot Sounds, at Patriot Sounds.
It shouldn't last too much longer, though.
I think swap.thorchain.org is going to get started very soon.
Okay, guys?
If you hold Rune or any asset on a centralized exchange,
get it off immediately, guys.
What are we doing?
Self-custody is the only way.
And if you are thinking about bonding your Rune,
use runebond.com.
All you have to do is pick a node,
request a whitelist,
and then bond once approved.
Guys, we have Rujira here.
Rujira is building decentralized Binance.
Did you guys see the Masari, that Masari article on Rujira? I hope that's whyuggira here. Ruggira is building decentralized Binance. Did you guys see the Masari,
that Masari article on Ruggira?
I hope that's why you're here.
And if you haven't, make sure you check it out.
We're gonna be breaking that all down today.
Okay, guys, that is the topic.
We have FloorChain.
We have FloorChain's app layer, Ruggira.
We are so very excited to tell the world
what we have built here.
I'm gonna go ahead and kick it to Kenton guys.
Let's get this party started.
Hi guys.
Yeah.
Update on the swap.thorchain.org.
Just, there's just been like, should have been done sooner, but we, we, we should be
moving to that live site live and he should be done on Monday.
Basically.
Um, it's not done by the next week.
I'm going to be pretty frustrated with the guys, but it's just, just taking a bit of time, people in different times on this communication and whatnot, but it's not done by the next week i'm going to be pretty frustrated with the guys but
it's just just taking a bit of time people in different time zones communication whatnot but
it's going to be done and um and keep in mind too this it's like we're continuously adding new
features new wallets new things right it's not the site is nowhere definitely not done i don't think
it'll be truly done until the new year. We just keep adding stuff, right,
and as it gets done. And if you have any, if you're using it, you find out any bugs,
no matter how little or weird or whatever, please let us know because when you, you know,
all the different eyes looking at it as we can, there's an email address on the site, you can email the bugs too. And just a little, some more alpha for you guys.
I've been saving for this space.
I've been chatting with Chad Bareford
about bringing back the Thursday,
Thursday ThorChain dev update spaces that we used to do.
And he's game, he's down to do it.
So, and then hopefully get familiar cow or maybe or
ryan whoever you know other thor chain does just kind of keep it short chain focused about you know
the developments updates with doorchain so chad's coming on next saturday um
i don't think we'll do it doesn't make sense to do it this thursday but but the following thursday
i think we'll start doing them um afternoon eastern time we get to sort it out the time exact time with
everybody um and then we'll keep doing these on saturdays where we have like you know more kind
of open other talk to other ecosystems other projects what have you um we'll just keep thursdays
focused just on on events around thor chain and from there, I'll pass it on to Hans
if he wants to introduce himself.
Hi, thank you.
Nice to be here.
Yeah, I don't know how far to go back with an introduction.
Sort of entered crypto space 2016, 2017,
potted around with Etherbit,
and then re-entered back in 2021 when we launched Harpoon Protocol
on Terra, which was what Kajira was born from, which was about demonstrating the inequalities
and the lack of access to liquidations that retail have in DeFi and trying to fix that.
And then we built Kajira off the back of that uh offering
liquidations for frank approachable at the time and then migrated to a sovereign one really focusing
still on the declarations on that inequality and now we're here building uh the same thing
on on thaw chain on the app layer with access to native btc native e and all those good connections that port chain
offers so hands uh let's just let's jump right into it um there's a hot topic right now is perp
dexes and regira is building a perp dex as well can you can you tell us a bit more about it and
why why regira's is important compared to everybody else?
That's a big question, right? So
it's hard to answer this question without being slightly opinionated, I think.
Be opinionated, please.
Yes, please do.
So my first entry into the whole crypto space i remember it vividly i was we were living
in this um converted attic basically um i we didn't have enough space i'm quite tall i'm six
foot three there's not enough space to stand up and i just kept hanging my head about it so we
had this kind of like low level little like seating area. And I was sat there and I was reading TechCrunch
and it must've been like late 2016, I think.
And I was reading about this thing called Ethereum
that had just launched and the DAO,
the first DAO, the one that ultimately got hacked.
I was like, this is incredibly cool.
And the democratization and the access to this
and the freedom and the open source,
and this is the whole thing.
It was a really incredible concept in it.
It bought me an I think it was a dollar at the time
and I made some bad financial decisions, obviously.
But that was the kind of thing that like kind of grabbed me
and stuck with me.
And I think that when you look at the,
I mean, the state of crypto ever since, right?
Like 2016, 2017, the ICO boom and EOS,
like whatever, $6 billion or something.
For what, right?
There's always been this kind of inequality.
And the thing that I said,
and actually when we started Kajira,
and I think this was kind of key,
when I met one of the co-founders,
I said, look, I'm not going to build something
that just pushes numbers around on a screen for no real value we have to build something that is valuable
that people want to use that is like that that stands up to the like the ethos and the ethics of
uh you know what bitcoin and cypherpunk and all these things were built on and so when you talk
about kind of like let's get back to the point here when talking about rudy perch right perhaps
is perhaps just kind of like this kind of generalized term
for leveraged trading, right?
And it's leveraged peer to peer trading.
Like it's the way that you read articles
and you read about how Perps is described
or like crypto Perps are described,
these kind of these contracts that, you know,
settle at some point in the future.
They never settle, right?
You just say to somebody else, maybe at some point in the future. They never settle, right? You just sell it to somebody else,
maybe at that point it settles.
But the whole thing is just kind of
one big margin trading platform.
You deposit something, you borrow some asset,
whether it's an actual real, inverted commas, asset
that comes from somewhere else,
or it's a synthetic asset that is pegged by a funding rate,
and you talk with somebody else.
And the, when you contrast this against what,
I don't know.
So the real thing here is that these exchanges
that pretend to, or use the narrative,
they use this kind of cyberpunk narrative of a decentralized exchange that offer these perps and
futures and whatever, they are, and I'm not pointing any fingers, but typically they are just kind of
centralized exchanges masquerading as decentralized exchanges. Because the true ethos of being a decentralized exchange
isn't necessarily that you have a large set of validators
and it's unstoppable and it's permissionless,
it's that it is for the people, right?
Like you build something and you get liquidated
on X, Y, or Z, not gonna name names.
And that, where does that go, right?
It just, you know, your margin just vanishes and you lose. What we are building here is a truly decentralized, open source,
transparent exchange where you can participate in the whole ecosystem. It's not just some like
thing where we'll pump the volume because 10% of the volume gets liquidated and that's profit in our pockets.
That profit is still profit there, right?
But it is not for a single individual.
Just because you deposit from a Metamask doesn't make it a decentralized exchange.
It just makes a smart contract that's taking deposit.
You deposit to a smart contract on Kraken, on buy-in, so whatever, right?
Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling now. No, you're good. that's taking deposit to a smart contract on Kraken or buy-in to whatever, right?
Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling now, but I hope- No, you're good.
Yeah, I appreciate you don't want to point names.
We shouldn't do that, right?
But so if I'm understanding you right,
are you suggesting that the game is rigged basically?
Like if you're trading perps on a centralized platform
there's there's stuff happening in the background like a black box you can't see it's not open
source and um yeah of course it is right it's a casino like perpetual trading is a casino
and the the parameters of that casino are tweaked so that the house wins it's just it's the same as it's the same as playing
roulette you but you can have some um intelligence over the way that you trade right you can understand
human psychology you can understand macro systems you can all these things and so you can give
yourself an edge but ultimately the house has an edge and the house always wins but what is their edge the fact that um they only they can see the order book or they or they have
um they can do uh basically like they can do uh paper trading like they don't have to have to
actually have the crypto to do any any buying or selling they can just do paper you parameterize
the funding rate you put you parameterise the whole exchange to your benefit.
I'm not saying this is a bad thing because without this, these perps exchanges don't make any money and they don't exist.
So people do make good traders, make good money out of it.
So there is a good reason for them to exist.
What I'm saying is that there are, like the status quo is that these exchanges keep all the, like predominantly, like 20% of a large exchange's profits are made from liquidations and margin calls.
And they're just like, oh, thank you. I'll put that in my pocket.
And what I'm saying is that like, what we need to build here and what we've got an opportunity to build is something where those fees and those profits and all of that kind of opportunity
goes to the owners of the exchange and you are free to own that exchange.
It's not a centralized exchange masquerading as a DEX, which is ultimately owned and controlled
by a few people.
So why, I just want to play devil's attic a little bit.
If that's going on, why do so many continue to use those platforms?
Like if they know the game is rigged against them, I mean, they must still make money.
They must still, I mean, there's professional traders out there who don't see this as a casino.
They see it as a job, as a business.
They must be making money.
Otherwise, people would stop going.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Same as, same as like, people have to wait in a casino to want to keep going back.
But this isn't, this isn't a casino.
And really it's like you say, like you, you can be sophisticated and understand
markets and understand emotions and understand psychology and understand all
these things and make, uh, accurate decisions accurate decisions in how you trade and how
you position yourself and over time you win. I'm not for a minute suggesting this is a roulette
wheel because it is much more sophisticated and if you are clever and smart and know what you're
doing, you have an edge. But when you look at things on a macro level the house has the ultimate edge
okay so you are you saying that the sophisticated the sophisticated traders know about the house's
edge but they can they can still trade around it they can take that into account and they can still
be profitable to a degree right they're not trading around it they're playing the game like the rules are well defined and you understand how like how this training game works and they
they they are they're not competing against the house they're competing against the counterparty
the other participants in this uh ecosystem the house just understands what the macro looks like
so if well if you know this, I'm assuming everybody,
all these sophisticated traders know what you know,
and would they, so if that's true,
like then I would think once Ruji Purps is live
and fully baked and going,
like people should flock to it.
They should want to use it
because they know they're getting a the truest fairest platform to trade perps that there's no
no house has the event there is no house to screw this is so that the house has
to have an advantage like the traders aren't competing against the house the
trades that competes against other traders. My point here is that we have an opportunity here to build something that is true to the
Cypherpoint ethos that is decentralized, community-owned, open source, and fair.
And the fair and egalitarian piece is the key piece here, is that people are going to
trade, and they're going to trade wherever they want to trade, and there is, to a degree,
no reason necessarily to trade on one platform
over another right aside from hype and liquidity but what there is reason to do is there is reason
to come and come and have part of the action and be like you can literally be the house you can own
the exchange like where else can you go you can't you know unless you're unless you become a
sophisticated investor and you pass KYC and you do all the things that Where else can you go? You can't, you know, unless you become a sophisticated investor
and you pass KYC and you do all the things that you have to do
in order to invest in privately owned companies,
how else do you invest in an exchange
where that investment is actually valued by the revenue
and the profitability of the exchange?
Like there are a handful right now that have a token
and that token is sort of
largely hype driven based on the kind of apparent usage of the platform or whatever, but they're
still closed source and they're still run by a consortium of validators or whatever.
This is kind of where I think we have this opportunity
is that we get to build this entire ecosystem
and it's not just perps, right?
It's spot trading, it's, you know,
the borrowing and lending is critical, right?
Because without borrowing, without leverage,
you can't get liquidations.
We get a launch pad, right?
So suddenly you can participate in VC funding
without having to do something like musty backrooms in.
You can actually participate in a fundraise directly
with however much you want to participate in,
in the same way that we bid on liquidations.
And we have an opportunity to build this
where the users of it are the owners of it.
And you don't have to be one or the other.
You can be both, you can be neither,
you can be one or the other.
And you just, we have to be one or the other you can be both you can be neither you can be one or the other and and you just it's it's we have to we have to build this right we have
to okay so uh maybe if i can just echo back what i'm hearing so like a casino like it's um it's a
free market if you want to build a casino you can if you want to build a casino, you can. If you want to go play the games, you can. Everybody knows the odds.
It's just the way it goes.
It's a free trade.
And with the perps platform, everybody knows the house wins 10, like you're saying, maybe
10% of their profits comes from liquidations.
It's just the nature of the game.
It's just how it goes.
And with Ruggiero and by extension Thorchain,
you can become the house yourself.
You can own a piece of the house.
You can get in on that side of the action and own it too.
So you're democratizing, I don't like using that word,
but the whole point of DeFi is to put everybody on the same, equal playing field.
Yeah.
Okay.
Absolutely.
Gotcha.
So for people to be able, okay, they want to participate.
They want to be part of the house.
Like I say, I'm not a perps trader.
I don't do futures, whatever.
But I like the idea of being a part of the house and earning from that.
How do I do that?
Is that buying Rooji?
Is that buying ruji is that
buying rune do i actually have to you know create some other uh opposite program there's an arbitrage
right you know we fortune uh rune and and so share of fees ruji and the sheriff fees um either or
there's a natural arbitrage between the two depending on on the the the balance of
revenue but basically owning the token is how you uh get a piece of action to the house you get on
the token or own and stake rooty which got it uh we will have an auto bond uh for rune on uh
rogero.network very soon so Okay. You'll see it, right?
It'll be black and white.
You'll be able to see the APR.
When the APR for staking Rune is higher than the APR for staking Rugee,
you'll get more Rune stakes,
and when it goes the other way, it'll balance out.
So let's just pretend the revenue split
that occurs on these other exchanges
is similar on Rugeeiero and ThorChain.
In theory, 10 to 20% of the revenue on on Ruggiero could be from these liquidations.
And so 10 to 20% of the yield on staking Ruggiero would come from these liquidations.
Is that right?
It's all very dependent on uptake, right?
But I think about this earlier.
If you consider the kind of status quo
as the futures and perps markets
are roughly 10 times the volume of spot market,
then for an exchange to make 10 to 20% of its revenue
from liquidations, which are a significant portion,
like just, you know, house edge traders lose, right?
Typically speaking. For it to only be 20% seems very low. a significant portion like just you know house edge traders lose right typically speaking for
it to only be 20 seems very low and and i've seen this on the inside i'm sure you have too
a lot of these exchanges the big exchanges when they list tokens they ask for a a good chunk of
the supply um and so for me like i don't i don't see a revenue source for these exchanges that equates to 80% on the spot market.
It feels like that kind of side of life is maybe quite beneficial for them.
But the point is that that 10-20% then becomes a, once you put aside the allocations, all that kind of stuff,
20% becomes more like the majority of the revenue
from actual kind of volume and usage.
And so I think that once we get the kind of like
the margin trading and the credit accounts off the ground
and we start off with leverage products,
which is what this whole thing is predicated on.
We're going to start seeing things moving.
Nice.
Patriot, did you want to jump in?
Do you have any questions?
Well, I think one thing is like,
if someone's listening to this, Hans, right?
They're like, they really,
I want to really crystallize the difference, right?
And I think you talked about it a lot,
but if it's not clear to people listening to this
where it's live with a recording,
what ThorChain, what Rajira is building,
everything about it is going to be on chain, right?
This has never existed before.
Everything, everything will be on chain.
This is what we're going to,
and this is the only way it should be, right?
You don't want to have, and again, this is not accusations, but these things have happened in the past where
you've got closed source things going on. You have people in the background, maybe manipulating data
to siphon value out of something. That should not even be an option. And the people who want
to participate in our ecosystem, that's how you do it. Like Kenton and CodeHan said, you purchase Rune, you can bond it,
you can have Ruggiero, you can stake it.
There's the auto bond feature coming from Rune.
There's various ways to do this.
But Hans, if you don't mind,
maybe just crystallize a little bit.
Like you, because I know you're really fired up
and passionate about this.
What do you foresee?
What is the big vision?
What are you trying to accomplish
now that what was once Krujira is now Rugg and thor chain have come together like what what gets your wheels turning
no you're you're exactly right um and this this was kind of so whilst we're building kajira it was
like it was you know it was insane so intense and i didn't have a minute to kind of look sideways
it was kind of forward forward forwards and forwards. And Thorchain was the only other
project that sort of entered this kind of sphere. And I saw it
kind of tangentially. But I never had the opportunity, the
moment to kind of really look at it. And then then all this
happened, then we came together and I like, you know, building
a tech account, writing like, the code for secured assets and
stuff. And I kind of go through the code base. And you say, this
is just, this is just,
this is what this entire industry,
this is what crypto and cypher punk is,
it's what it's all about.
It's why we are here, right?
Because I can now access these assets
on these other layer ones.
And I've got this homogenous data type
that I can use in my code
and then bring it to my smart contracts.
And so now I've suddenly got access to all these assets.
And there is nowhere else to offer us it.
Like nowhere.
Like Maya, obviously, and we love each other.
And there's some very exciting things going on there.
But we can now build the thing that centralized exchanges have had exclusive ownership over
because they can get banking licenses,
they can control assets in a centralized wallet,
they can take custody of it and issue you a value in a database somewhere
to say, this is how much you own, but oh, shit, our database got hacked,
or no, actually, your 2FA didn't work, or whatever it is, right?
or, oh, no, actually your 2FA didn't work,
or whatever it is, right?
We now have the rails and the architecture,
which is key actually.
I think building a smart contract layer,
a virtual machine on top of ThorChain
rather than integrating it into the core was key as well.
We now have the rails and we can build this thing,
which clearly has product market fit, right?
Like the centralized exchange market
is fair it's quite large um but it is owned by a few elite few and we are we have an opportunity
finally to build the thing that um provides access and provides those functions the trading
the leverage the borrowing the launch pad all these things to anybody without KYC, without the potential of their funds getting locked or frozen, and
where you can also own a share of what we're building.
And that is, for me, that is so key.
This is like, crypto is about ownership and it's about democratization. Like if you can't,
if you can't have a piece of that pie, then what's the point in it? You may as well just
use a centralized exchange and be like, yeah, yeah, whatever the, the, the founders that get
their shares going to be worth something, they'll go public one day and they'll make a lot of money
out of it. So I couldn't agree with you more. I'll go ahead, Patriot. I i'm sorry kenton i'll let you go after this i
totally agree with that hans and you know that's why we're building this thing right we cannot have
a permissioned element in defy if we do that then it will be subject to abuse at any point if humans
can get their fingers on something the chance can never be extracted away where some shenanigans
will take into place that's why open source code is important.
That's why permissionlessness is important.
That's why no KYC is important.
To the listener listening to this recording,
I cannot emphasize how important this is.
Kujira, which is now Rujira,
2021 roughly is when they got started.
They were called something back then.
ThorChain 2021,
we built in isolation a little bit from each other.
We knew of each other's distance, but we built quietly, quietly, quietly for years and years and years.
And now we've come to the point where we've kind of discovered each other.
And now we're the same community.
And what we're building collectively changes everything.
To the listener, I cannot emphasize this enough.
You need to do the deep dive on this.
Permissionlessness, no no kyc everything on chain
that is the future i'm going to kick it to kenton uh totally echo everything you just said there man
um i just kind of wanted to ask hands like like this is something i keep thinking about you know
especially with like trying to market and promote door chain is that like i agree with everything
you said like we're i feel like we're really, we're in the trenches.
We're in the front line of, like, you know, holding the cypherpunk ideals
and keeping them going.
And it's like, and I always see stuff on Twitter.
People are like, you know, where's the industry gone?
Nobody's talking about changing the world anymore.
And it's always, you know, it's these treasury companies companies and you know centralized exchanges and blah blah blah and it's like
you know and and i hear that i see that i'm like well how come why aren't more people recognizing
what doorchain is doing recognizing what rogera is doing and like even when i talk to crypto savvy
people and i tell them they just i feel like I just see a blank stare in their face like they don't it's like it's like they don't it's like they forgot the ideals or they're
just closet fiat maximalists do you have any insight on that like why why aren't more people
recognizing what you're working on there's a few things I think um so I mean there's two sides are
right you've got you've gotChain and you've got Roger.
And I think, you know, like if you ask the man on the street,
do you know what WorldPay is?
The chances are they're gonna say no.
But like, WorldPay is like a settlement there
that powers every single credit card transaction
anybody ever makes.
And I think it's, it's sort of like my mental model here is
that the blockchain is more akin to a WorldPay than it is to a MasterCard or a Visa or whatever
the US version of it is. You know, you make your payment, like MasterCard and Visa are
selling you their products, they're selling you their credit cards, but it is ultimately
WorldPay that settles those transactions and it's the world pay to take the volume right everyone
else is kind of competing for it but well pay just sat there like you know hoovering up trillions of
dollars a year but yep we'll just do this and we'll take our fee and and that's fine but we
have to integrate we need these integrators to make that work so thor chain and rogera just
they're just such so high level the well no i'd say rogera rogera
is more of like a it's actually not even a mastercard kind of thing it's like a
i'm not really sure i like but it's it's a it's a public facing brand right like it's a you can buy
a bitcoin you can buy eath you can you can borrow against your Bitcoin on Rijera.
But ultimately, the reason why this is so powerful is that the settlement layers of liquidity that ThorChain has means that we have launched what we call the virtualization strategy, which is basically just a way of saying we have now put ThorChain's liquidity in our order books.
which is basically just a way of saying we have now put thought change liquidity in our order books
and now you've got something like you know 20 grand within 1.6 percent of a bitcoin order book
so it's you we now have these rails to allow us to to build these borrowing and ending products
where you can rotate your collateral from for example bitcoin to each without having to
withdraw it and read the positive like you had to in the past. And all these things are only made possible because of thought change rails, thought change liquidity, and particularly like the
deposits too and the withdrawals from Roger are like sovereign because of thought change. But it's
a facilitator and facilitators make an enormous amount of money um but they don't necessarily need to be kind of
you know it's not like mastercard powered by worldpay it's just i pay with my mastercard
okay so let's get into that earlier mentioned about um forgive me i might have might have
misheard you but you're talking about take advantage of the perps trading and participate
that more.
The lending, borrowing and lending helps make that possible.
Can you explain that a bit further? Why is borrowing and lending so important to perps trading?
So perps is basically borrowing.
You borrow a token.
Where do I start with this? Stablecoins, Stablecoins is where I start with this, right?
Is, so when I mint like a DAI or we had USK on Pajera
as a classified deposition, you are basically like printing a token, right?
It's an asset which didn't exist before, but you're being allowed to have it because you've deposited more than what the protocol values your
because it was a more casual than the more personal values the the the debt to be and so if stablecoin here is a
synthetic representation of your debt against your pristine bitcoin class or whatever and
or pristine Bitcoin collateral or whatever.
And what you can do, if you wanted to,
you can then sell that stablecoin and buy more Bitcoin
and deposit that as collateral and now borrow more stablecoin.
And so in doing so, the terminology, I guess, will be looping.
But really, you're just building a leverage position.
And there's no necessary reason to loop it.
You can just say, hey, look, I have this much margin.
Let's call it a margin now instead of collateral.
I want to borrow this much.
Please go and mint me some stable coins.
And in the same atomic transaction,
you can go and sell those stable coins
and then put it as collateral.
So you can now, where you might have had like a 90% LTV,
you can now open the 10X long position.
But your stablecoin there is just a synthetic,
tokenized representation of your long position.
Somebody else, you might turn around and say,
actually, no, I think the market's gonna drop tomorrow.
So I wanna short, so I will buy your,
like it's the same thing, right?
You sell your Bitcoin, you sell your ETH you sell your tokens you are you are short the market
and so you might buy this stable coin and so you are basically buying a somebody else's long
position because you're short and so what you've got there is you've got this peer-to-peer
this peer-to-peer market where you're at this point you're kind of trading to a sort of leverage spot
but not really because it's because the stable coin is synthetic but it's it's the kind of that's
a kernel of how like margin trading works right you can you can you can create this leverage
position at one transaction so that somebody else because they have an opposite position,
opposite idea of the market.
And so you then take the next step
and instead of having a synthetic dollar,
you have a synthetic Bitcoin, right?
And so you're now posting dollar collateral
against your newly minted synthetic Bitcoin.
And now suddenly you can
trade a synthetic Bitcoin for a synthetic dollar and you have futures trading. And that's all it
is, right? The whole thing just kind of layers on top of each other. This was the key piece that
we were missing on Quadira, that we've been planning perhaps for the longest time. And my view is that this is all one big financial ecosystem.
The whole thing should have really tight interplay with each other.
And the perps market should support the spot market.
The spot market should support the perps market.
And we just didn't have that key piece there.
And it took ages to figure it out.
And the thing that we have finally got to now is this concept of credit accounts,
which will allow you to
have and this is what unlocks all of this so credit accounts is like is borrowing that's all
it is but it allows you to have multi-collateral and multi-debt so um you can now open a uh i think
that's right you can open a purpose position with some spot collateral,
and then somebody else can buy that off you
on an order book.
Like the whole thing is just like this perfectly beautiful
interconnected ecosystem where it is all just based
on leverage and leverage comes with liquidations
and liquidations is kind of bring it all the way
back round back to Harpoon, back in 2021.
And this is what we're all about. It's about democratizing access to liquidations.
And so we are building an ecosystem that is comparable and equivalent
to any other ecosystem you could find, but it is
community owned and it is accessible.
Excellent. Excellent.
Excellent.
Yeah, guys, you know,
it's really hard to just explain it any better than that.
I mean, it's just truly incredible what is going on.
I'm going through all like the Telegram, the DMs,
and I just thank you everyone for all your questions.
I'm trying to, I can't,
I don't think we have time to get to everything
because Hans is limited.
But, you know, guys, like if, because there's a lot of people that might be listening
to this that you know again i really want to emphasize something here what for chain regira
what what this represents ultimately it's just this struggle this perseverance this dogged
determination to make something that emancipates the world. Yes. You know, it can often things in
crypto or the blockchain industry can sound like hype. Yes. But I honestly believe like all the
cyberpunk, all the people who believe in emancipating the world, having their children,
being free, being letting let anyone in the world have the same opportunities and no longer be
at the mercy of the capricious nature of all these third parties, of the banks,
of all these NGOs, whatever you want to say. We are trying to put an end to that. Blockchain
technology, it has the potential to either subjugate or emancipate. And that is the main
driving factor. This is what gets everyone so motivated. At the end of the day, if you make
money, that feels good. I've made money before. I think most people in listening to this, I think
everyone's had their win. The most important thing is that we carry the torch and accomplish the goal,
what was set out in the original white paper, what we've always wanted to do. And that is the
emancipation of the world. We are going to do this, you guys. We are not going to stop. We're
going to keep pushing. This will be done. This shared community is the community that's going
to take it home. Take it to the bank. Kenton, I just want to make sure. Want to do a mic check if you're there? Okay, good. Your mic check's there.
back lending and like um it's still really only it's not very rarely accessible especially the
average person you know it definitely is to you know larger investors um but it's still kind of
hard to access from from the for the average joe's point of view and and i don't know if you guys
somebody's got somebody's got some background noise going on um um if you can meet your speak you can meet your mic um the uh i don't think
he's not like michael saylor's in an interview with bitcoin magazine to talk about the future
of bitcoin back lending and like how securitizing bitcoin is going to be huge um it's coming out in
a few days so i'm actually looking forward to that. And I was actually, I just had lunch with a friend who runs a VASP here in Cayman. And that's a virtual asset service provider, it's an exchange,
and like an OTC desk. And what he's going to start pitching to people is, and what he's already
seeing people looking into and exploring exploring is that like, for
example, on Cayman, you got to get permanent residence here, you got to buy a $2.4 million
worth of real estate. And what he's going to pitch to people is like, don't buy the real
estate with cash, buy Bitcoin, then boil against the Bitcoin, use that cash to buy the real estate
to get your residency. Meanwhile, you have the Bitcoin and that'll appreciate in value
and eventually you can pay off your loan. And he sees a really big market for that.
And I'm positive this is what Michael Saylor is. And so, and this is, I'm positive,
this is what Michael Saylor is talking about too, because this is what,
this is what the super wealthy do, right? They just,
they never sell their assets. They just borrow against them.
And then that way they don't have to pay capital gains, you know,
on the sale of the asset,
they can actually write off the interest on the debt and whatever. Right.
And so, but that whole strategy, that whole play is really only available to basically millionaires, right?
It's hard for someone to do a 10 grand. It's pretty hard to access that.
Well, until now.
Until now, with Regera, right?
Go ahead, Hans.
So what's very interesting here is this primitive that we're building called credit accounts is like a generalized borrowing and lending.
So like I say, multi-collateral, multi-debt.
But because we're now using this to integrate perps as well and futures, it unlocks some really interesting models.
So you have your kind of standard make-a-down model where you know you deposit one btc and you can
borrow 60 grand right like whatever it is uh and that's great fine right you pay your interest on
your on what you borrow and you can do what you want with it and and you take a you take a view
you take a position on the market and which direction it's heading um and it's great if you
don't obviously if you don't want to sell to sell your tokens because you have capital gains or whatever implications of yourself.
But what's very exciting about this is that by dint of integrating it with the purpose market and a futures market,
and also allowing you to collateralize a position with a limit order, not just like an open position,
you can now, or you will be able to take one BTC spot
and use that as collateral,
and then take a one BTC short and use that as collateral.
We're looking literally at the cleaner model,
but with any asset you like,
where we also own the purpose exchange.
And suddenly now I have this Delta neutral collateral, which, okay, you pay slightly
higher.
Well, to a degree, typically funding rates on shorts are positive.
So what you would get paid for holding that short position open might help offset what
you're paying to borrow those assets, paying the dollars.
But the point is that we have this kind of very flexible generic model that can create a make-it-out model, can create anything in a model, can create any kind of future concoction of
margin and leverage in order to be able to borrow against your assets without selling them
and potentially safely without the risk of liquidation.
Because in order to offset that risk of liquidation,
you have to have, you've got to have a counterparty, right?
Like you can't open a one BTC short on a purpose market
unless there's somebody else taking the opposite side of it.
So you're not internalizing that risk as a protocol,
you're creating an opportunity to externalize that risk
and the players in the game can all can all take their own positions and and if you're smart and know what
you're doing then you can create your delta neutral cholesterol and so basically sell your bitcoins
without without selling it i mean for i guess for to be clear too for people uh same with if you're
depositing your book and clearara borga instead there's
there's a custodian there who is holding on to that bitcoin and that custodian is is thor chain the 115 nodes and um that's that's your counterparty if you're going to do something
like this and so the the argument there is that you know, decentralized 115 nodes is safer than a centralized handful of
nodes. Yeah. Or a free or full multi-sick or whatever it is these days. Yeah. Yeah. I just
want to add more to my story. I forgot to mention. So talking to this VASP, like they have a client
who's already doing this and they're a property developer here in Kamen.
And, um, they've done well for themselves over the years and they've got good banking
relationships on Island and they, you know, they, they got to borrow money to buy a property,
build, build a building.
Right.
And, um, and then like one day the banks, one of the banks realized, Hey, these guys,
their business dried up, you know, they, they've, you know banks realized, hey, these guys, their business dried up.
The banker is used to lending them millions of dollars and not getting that business anymore.
So they called them up and said, hey, everything okay?
Just want to see how business is.
Have you slowed down?
What's going on?
And developers, oh, no, business is great.
We're doing awesome.
But we're doing Bitcoin- Bitcoin back loans now because they're
in the crypto and they're just borrowing against their Bitcoin and they can get their loan done in
a day and they get the cash in their account, wired to their account the next day. And for the
same rates, same interest rates they're getting at the bank. And so they're basically saying like,
well, it's just, it's way easier to just borrow
against my bitcoin and with you i've got to take you know can take months sometimes to get the loan
approved and um yeah this is just way easier so this is what we're doing now and so the the bank
is taking notice because they're losing out on the fees they're losing out on that that business
and so um where i'm going with this is if like sophisticated money wants to do this, they're
doing this.
And this might actually force crypto adoption within big banks if more and more people go
towards this.
So it's pretty cool.
And it's cool that Rajira and DoorChain are at the forefront of making this possible
around the whole world,
not just locally.
I think you've already hit the nail on the head there.
The value proposition here
is about disintermediation.
And it's about how a smart contract
was a great time, by the way.
A smart contract is basically
free to use. Like a regular
contract to the real world
comes with thousands of dollars worth of legal fees.
And so it is inaccessible for most people
unless you're a high net worth
for most of these kind of transactions.
Whereas you can use a smart contract for,
well, currently on ThoughtChain for free.
Now, literally there is zero gas price,
and this will probably go up,
but there is zero gas cost right now.
And this is like, this is really the crux
of what we're doing, right?
Is it's opening this up.
We're not like, not necessarily like trying to like
pull over these like massive institutions and all right.
This is kind of,
ah, I find it tough, right?
Because there is so much of the narrative in this space,
which is all about how many transactions per second
can you do, or what's the efficiency of this?
And the truth is, honestly, if you cannot have both, right?
You cannot build a decentralized community-owned anything
and compete with a centralized exchange
or a centralized anything
on those metrics. They are always going to be faster. They are probably always going to be
cheaper because they are centralized. They have a single point of service. But what this space
does and what it was supposed to do, and this is what we should be driving towards, is building
something for everybody to use.
Because if I want to borrow $10 against $100 of Bitcoin, I can do that.
It's basically free.
I cannot do that in the real world or the real world in the traditional world, because
I'd have to pay a thousand pounds to somebody or other to let me do that, or I'd have to
go to KYC or do all these other things.
And that is the single differentiating factor around what we're building here.
And honestly, what ThorChain offers Regera as an app player, it's just the only place
you can do it.
With native BTC, with native BTC, with any native app like TRX and Sol and everything
that's coming.
It's the only place.
I hope you guys are listening to this. oh i'm so sorry kenton um if it's okay i just want to um we have some people who who have been saying something i'm going to get you a boon and
i promise we'll get you um but it's got something in the queue here um uh while we're talking about
um you know borrowing and stuff like that i got a question about liquidation markets and
someone from your community the rudy community, would it be possible to actually bid on liquidations in
liquidation markets like we could do on the original Coogee? Could you talk about that for
a second, Hans? Oh, this is absolutely. This is kind of, and we've kind of checked ourselves
recently because this is like the kernel. This is everything, right? Because the one thing that
all these centralized exchanges profit from mostly is liquidation. Do you everything, right? Because the one thing that all these centralized exchanges
profit from mostly is liquidation. Do you get margin called? They take your margin. Your
CDP gets liquidated. They take 10% or 20% or whatever it is. There isn't any opportunity
for retail to participate, no opportunity for them to bid for it, no opportunities for
you to make any profit from it. And also by doing that, it makes it worse for the trader or the borrower, because they're getting liquidated
at a higher premium. So this is absolutely, we're driving towards us, but in order to
have liquidations, you have to have borrowing. So we are like driving, driving, driving towards
these credit accounts. Because what credit accounts will do, as this is
interestingly, this is something a bit of, I guess, technical alpha. And what we had before on, you know, Kajira was born
with Orca, right? Orca was this liquidation market for
Colashville. What Orca then mutated to strangely, was Fin.
And Fin was the name of our order book exchange so
Oracle is this kind of product where you could place bids at certain discounts
from the current market rate and then when a liquidation was executed through
that those bids you'd you get your bid filled and so I remember quite vividly I
was kind of like this is basically an order book,
but we just have to like kind of rotate it one way
and then flip it the other way.
And suddenly we have this kind of like full order book.
And so Orca then became Fin, which was the order book.
And instead of it being like a discount or premium
to an external price, it was a fixed price.
And latterly we rolled in the second order type, which instead of it was a fixed price. And latterly, we rolled in the second order type,
which instead of it being a fixed order, like I want to sell at 100,000, it's like, I want to sell
at 10 bits above the current market price based on some external Oracle. And that weirdly is the
kind of thing that going full circle, that's how Orca used to work. So it was the lending market would say,
hey, the current price is $100,000. You give me back what you can give me.
And it was sort of commissioned in that way, because the market had to tell the liquidation
queue what price was. But now we have enshrined oracles, we can allow the liquidation queue to
order, aka the order book,
to tell the market what the price is,
rather than market tell the order what the price is.
Which means now,
we get to be much more capital efficient
and we can liquidate through the order book.
But what we're gonna have is this beautiful,
basic kind of like liquidation hunting interface.
So you'll get your liquidation heat maps.
You'll get a, like a preview of what would happen if price went up 10%, how much would
get liquidated?
What point would my big hit here?
You get this kind of really like, you know, you'll have an overview of all the leverage
across the entire Rooja ecosystem and you'll be able have the overview of all the leverage across the entire
rouge ecosystem and and you'll be able to really pace your bids well and there will still be there
still be premiums right i want five percent or ten percent discount but they are just these new i
say new but they're actually the original versions these oracle orders on the order book so you sit
down five percent or ten percent off and yeah you'll participate with with the same people
that are pacing regular limit orders,
but they're not going to be liquidation hunters.
They're going to be people that just want to buy or sell.
And so maybe they'll get included in a liquidation.
But the nice thing about VSNOW is that the arbitrage there,
where before there were two isolated markets
and you'd have a liquidation queue, which would be up to 30% discount.
And sometimes that 30% discount would get hit because nobody was paying attention.
And then they'd sell it on the spot market at 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 10%.
That arbitrage opportunity gets internalized.
It becomes value for people providing LP.
But you still get this beautiful game where you can go in and you
can just set your bid you say like I'm gonna I want 10% off and I know that my bid is probably
going to get hit when the market hits a local low and everyone gets a bit of stress they can't quite
repay their loans but because of this auction mechanism it's good for me because I get my
discount and it's good for the borrower because there is a competitive nature
to this bidding process.
They are going to get liquidated
for the least time possible.
So, and this is the whole,
like, crux of the whole thing.
Like, this is why we do this.
Okay, I got, that's awesome.
And, you know, guys,
you might have to listen to this recording twice.
I'm going to have to do it myself
because there's a lot of information here.
I got, I got one more for you on, on my end and then maybe we'll go to Boone.
I'm not sure, but okay. Let me go here. Okay.
So could Hans explain a little bit more about orbital pools and why he's
excited about, especially that Thor chain has integrated Tron.
Those are two very separate questions.
Orbital is very exciting.
For those that I know, it's a paper from Paradigm.
It kind of extends the concentrated liquidity formula into n dimensions and allows essentially essentially an infinite number of equally valued tokens to be quoted and traded across the same market maker.
So to the best of my knowledge,
and I think there's some other things going on,
but to the best of my knowledge,
we are the first team to be building this out in anger
to actually ship it into development
and go through the nuances of how does somebody's
position get tokenized and is it fungible and is it fungible with somebody like all these pieces.
So there's a big piece of work there to be done to, I mean, in the first state,
just demonstrate that it is a valid design and then to actually productionize it and making it but like it's an incredible design like
it's it's it's like a curve end pull but using concentrated liquidity and also accommodating the
fact that the tokens might be paid gets yeah it's it's it's a really good design so watch this space
it's a it's a work in progress yeah we've got some guys doing some great work on that but it's a it's a work in progress um yeah we've got some guys doing some great work on that but
it's uh it's gonna take some time and tron i mean yeah tron great can't wait we're we're geared up
we're ready it's on stage there um tron wallet is already connected uh and as soon as those pools
get seeded it will be it'll be available we'll hook up some pairs and this is a beautiful thing
about the virtualization strategies that we'll have those order books they'll be live and you
will you could almost watch it in real time as liquidity gets added to the base layer in the
tron pools you'll see the the quotes in the order book grow and those quotes in the order book are
going to be what is key for supporting credit accounts because um let's say for example like you have a
credit account and you you're borrowing against your TRX and actually you you
decide you don't like TRX anymore you want to borrow against your XRP and so
you want to swap your TRX for XRP and any other lending model you have to
withdraw your TRX you have to make sure you've got enough funds there to repay your debt, you then got to take it back to somewhere else, you've got to swap it for XRP,
you've got to come back to the lending market, you've got to deposit your XRP, and now you can
reborrow your funds again, which is just absurd. But what our model of credit accounts will do
is it will allow you to basically do anything you'd like with your collateral.
And at the end of doing anything you like, it'll check, is this loan still safe?
And because of the beauty of how Cosmism works
and the Acta model,
and various kind of like technical details
and implementations,
if that final check fails, the whole transaction fails.
And so you get kind of like limitless opportunities.
So now what the virtual, this
is the time coming to the virtual, the connection of the baseline of pools, the virtualization
strategy, the order book and the credit accounts means that you can then have a debt against
your TRX and you can swap that TRX for XRP in one transaction. And as long as your position
is still safe after that swap,
and we've done that atomically because we've supported it through the virtualization strategy and through the order books,
you can crack on.
And you can't rotate collateral in a debt position
anywhere else like that.
Legendary stuff.
Legendary stuff.
Well, that's it for my questions.
Kenton, I just want to kick to you.
Thank you for being patient, Boone. I really appreciate it Kenton was there anything else or
maybe we just do a quick yeah we know we can keep moving on if Boone wants to ask a question
okay go ahead Boone thanks again for your patience buddy
yeah no problem uh yeah just real quick I really liked everything you were saying
earlier on about decentralization permissionless
no KYC however it seems that most of Ruggiero is built around USDC which is you know very
centralized single you know they can freeze accounts with the press of a button and is also
you know at the subject of the US government so I'm just yeah wondering about that design choice. To what degree do you think it's built around USDC?
Well, just let me ask a second thing and then I'm done.
And then also, I was curious about the design of this theoretical Bitcoin-backed stablecoin and then progress on that.
And I guess to address your question, it seems that the perps market, it's all like the liquidity is in USDC.
Maybe I'm just mistaken there.
So some of the perps markets are the liquidities in the native token like Bitcoin.
And some of it is USDC.
But this is all just a parameterization, right?
Like it's nothing in the kernel of how anything is built dictates that USDC is the one and only token.
And it's just this market has been deployed with USDC as the
as a classroom. If it's if it's not to everyone's taste, and
people want us that we have, we launched BTC ETH USDT pairs. And
then that you know, because they are kind of it's's just an implementation of a contractor way.
Like it's not, nothing has been like hard coded
in any kind of core binaries or anything that says,
USDC is the one and only stable coin that we'll use here.
It's just another asset.
Okay, perfect.
Thank you for the questions, Boone. Really appreciate it.
Can I jump in there? I want to make a comment.
Yeah, go ahead.
I understand where you're going with that, Boone. I keep thinking about it too. I think
stablecoins are going to become huge. The US is going to really pimp them around the
world. And everyone's arguing, oh, it's a backdoor for CBDC and blah, blah, blah. And like, I get all that.
But in my mind, as long as there's competition between, say, Circle and Tether, as long as there's at least two, right, and hopefully more, that it would be a death sentence for one of these stablecoin issuers to arbitrarily freeze a token somewhere.
Because as soon as like,
let's say they did that.
Let's say circle decided to freeze the,
the USDC on,
on Regera and Thor chain.
There'd be,
there'd be a bank run instantly.
Like everybody else,
other exchanges,
everywhere else would dump USDC and go into Tether or whatever other stable.
And because it wouldn't want to wait around for it to happen to them, right?
So unless all the stablecoin issuers are actually in cahoots and are actually working together,
which I don't necessarily agree, I wonder if the risk of having one of them freeze their tokens
on a certain platform is really that high because it
really would be a death sentence for them. Yeah, just a comment. I don't know if you guys have any
thoughts on that. I think the game theory checks out how I play it in my mind. I mean,
unless they are coordinating, then yeah, that would be very, you know, because I mean, look
what's happened with the dollar with freezing assets due to various foreign conflicts, right?
Like people are actively moving away from the dollar. So the precedent has been set. If you
freeze, you know, people's money, whether it's, you know, dollars in valuation in fiat world,
or if it's on blockchain, I think it'd carry right over. It'd be a death sentence. I agree.
We haven't, We have another speaker.
Code Hans, I know you're probably short on time.
So I'll try and fit one more person in.
Angry Guru.
That's fine.
Let's push it.
We're good.
Oh, okay, cool.
Angry Guru, do you have a question for Code Hans or something?
Go ahead.
I'm going to give you a few more seconds to check your mic, buddy.
All right.
Got to move on.
We'll come back to you or just raise your hand when you
sort your mic out there. Kenton, do you have anything?
Yeah. Yeah. I have a question for Hans. Enhrined oracles. Can you kind of go over like this?
These, you know, we've been talking about perps. This oracle is important for perps as well. And
then why the word enshrined?
Can you break it all down for us?
Yeah, this is very, very cool, actually.
So if you look at anything on any other chain
that requires external knowledge, whatever, prices particularly,
the chain itself is very constrained, particularly prices particularly. The chain itself is very like constrained,
particularly ETH, right?
Like ETH is, everything is user land.
You, nobody gets privileged position
to do anything on Ethereum, right?
And so if you want to subscribe
and you want to use a price feed,
you have to chain link because you know, the status quo.
But all they can do is they are just, they just enter the mempool, right? They're not, the chain link don't have any privileged access to mempool,
any privileged access to chain state or to block production.
And so if you're going to build a product that requires,
that basically allows people to gamble on the, on the directionality of price,
you have to use Chainlink,
and you also can't guarantee that somebody else isn't going to front run the price,
especially when you're using a price feed
that has general access.
So Chainlink posts feeds to multiple chains,
and so what you could do is you can monitor another chain,
and you can see that there's the price commitment 100 milliseconds before the next ETH block
is produced is fixed. And now you know, you're pretty confident that you know what the commitment
that they're going to make is, and you can front run them. What the enshrined Oracle does is it undoes all of that.
And so the same way that the thought chain node operators will observe and gossip
over an observed transaction on a layer one, which is just external information,
like the same way those prices external information, they will now observe prices on exchanges
and they'll gossip those prices
and they'll come to an agreement, say,
yeah, this is gonna be the price.
And then they will commit that price at the start of the block.
And this is so key, is that you commit that price
in the start of the block,
which is impossible for a PIF or a chain link or anything.
And you completely remove any opportunity for prescience,
like prescience attacks, where you know the price before it's committed.
And so you, and the net results of that means you just get a better UX,
you get a better product and you get a higher performing exchange because you
don't have to, for example, you know, like hold somebody's position in like limbo
until the next box committed, because you don't know whether they
front run the price or not. And the second piece of all of this is it gives ThorChain and all of us
autonomy over those prices, right? Like you go to a pair, you go to Chainlink and say, oh, can you add
XYZ? I'm like, okay, yes, it'll just cost you a hundred grand but but now we can add new prices for new assets
just with a meme or update and it's free and you just point you know you have different chambers and we've been doing this for years now we had on kajira and you know it was on terror
it's like the the a lot of the code that we're using is is from terra's old oracle and it wasn't
the oracle that broke on terror it Ontario. It was the economic model.
Yes, the Oracle was rock solid.
And so we borrowed a lot of that for Kajira and we're bringing it over here.
But now we have the opportunity to use Bifrost
and the Gossip and the Bifrost.
It's a beautiful thing.
Honestly, I didn't write any of it, so I can say that.
How does the nodes know the price on the exchange?
And can that be manipulated or altered? How does the nodes know the price on the exchange?
And can that be manipulated or altered?
So the price that is committed is a volume weighted average price.
And outliers are discarded based on their standard deviation.
So you can't manipulate the price too much. You can't say, I think the price of Bitcoin is a dollar and make it low because the standard deviation based on your two pairs majority is just going to be like, no, you're wrong.
Off you go.
You all get slashed for that.
Don't do that.
Because let's say a few nodes did want to do that.
The only way they could get away with it
is if they convinced the majority of nodes
to do it as well, right?
So like you-
Same trust model as the entire chain runs on already.
So maybe just, maybe she'd say this out loud
for people if they're not following along.
So there's 115 nodes on thor
chain you need two two-thirds of them to come to consensus to agreement on something so um we need
if there's a few nodes or several nodes that you know are trying to fudge the price
you won't win because as long as two-thirds the nodes agree that's price. And they're incentivized to come up with the accurate price
and agree with everyone else.
Because if they're off, they're gonna get penalized.
And so there's no incentive for them
to try and fudge the numbers.
There's actually an incentive to get it right.
Because you're assuming everyone else
is trying to get it right too.
And you all have-
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, there's a slight nuance because prices aren't binary the same way that, for example, like the output of the block would be,
but you have to vote two-thirds.
And so this is why you stand the deviation to discern outliers.
But yes, you're right.
Perfect.
Cool.
Yeah, the vote of Patriots. Some people people want us some people jump up well um yeah
i think we have swiss rambo real quick before i go to swiss rambo i just want to like take a second
to talk about like thor chain's governments and governance and its decentralized nature like
all all the during the entire time that kujira which is now rudera was building right they were
building these amazing economic derivatives thor chain was in defense mode. So we're trying to make the protocol as hardy
and as tough as we possibly can. ThorChain, as it stands, it's very unlikely to be,
it's not, it's really hard to be captured. I don't want to say never, of course, that's
not intellectually honest. I mean, you don't want to ever say an absolute, but ThorChain is extremely robust when
it comes to decentralization. And we're interested in making that even more. We are not satisfied.
Even if we are comfortable where we're at right now, we want to push it to the limit as much as
we can. I believe the ultimate future for ThorChain and Rujira is having just to think of as infrastructure
that is just so unbelievably robust and strong and powerful that it can never be captured.
And that's the goal we're going to strive to, guys.
So if people have questions, because there's two sides of this coin, right?
We have ThorChain, which is, what is ThorChain?
It is raw infrastructure.
It does swaps.
And what Rujira, what the app layer is,
it's what you can build on top of that.
What you have permissionless, no KYC,
trust minimized swap from real layer one
to real layer one.
What can you build with that?
And it's incredible what we can build
as you've learned.
The new speaker actually dropped.
Let me see if these are requesting back up.
No, okay.
So yeah, that's basically it, guys.
So, Kenton, did you have anything you want to add to that or any other questions or anything?
Oh, I do have something, actually.
Apologies, Kenton.
Okay, this is from the community
okay so
is a timeline
for switching to maybe a
perps team or new perps team
has that already started
or can there be no perps development
work until we do credit
accounts, ETA
blah blah blah, can you comment on that, Codons?
To a degree, yeah. So credit accounts and Mintbolts, which are the things that will allow a stablecoin,
as I mentioned earlier, it's all just kind of two sides of the same 10-sided coin.
They're all, it's all just kind of two sides of the same 10 sided coin.
Um, so once we have credit accounts and mint vaults, mint vaults are trivial.
So that's not going to take very long credit accounts are gnarly.
Uh, and I'm working through them right now.
Uh, once we have that, we'll have all the, all the pieces you need to create
futures markets, to create a sim.
It's like the same way that, dare I say it, we had a mirror on, on terror.
So like, you know, the only thing that constrains a perps market or a futures market, because all you're really doing is gambling
on the future price or something, or betting on a future price or something, or trading
bets on the future price or something, is having that price feed. So now we have the
enshrined Oracle that we now have complete autonomy over over so we can now say hey look we're going to add a new provider to the enshrined oracle we're going to
add the nasdaq or we're going to add whatever it is now i can add the price of tesla i can add the
price of whatever to my trend oracle which means i can now use it in my credit accounts which means
i can now mint a let's call it a tesla stable coin and I can create a delta neutral position over my Tesla stable coin.
Like this is just, all these things are just,
they're parameterizations of the same protocol.
And it's the next protocol we're gonna ship.
Okay, awesome.
And can I press you a bit further on ETA hands?
Is this like months away, years away?
I'm not expecting you to give us like an actual deadline but can you speak in terms of days we are not
depends on these spaces I have to be this is the first time we don't do like
six weeks this is what we're building.
Yeah, I mean, obviously like we have an existing product.
There is an ongoing maintenance burden.
We have a great team here
that are like doing really awesome things
and building and supporting and maintenance,
all that kind of stuff.
But yeah, the credit accounts
is the absolute number one priority
because you get credit accounts,
get all these exciting things and we get liquidations
and that's gonna be the key.
That's what like, that's the fun bit.
I mean, not if you're getting liquidated,
but the best thing about having a liquidation market
means that when you get liquidated,
you know that you're getting liquidated for the best price.
Perfect. And yeah, guys, let's, you know,
a lot of people, the, you know, the meme is win,
win, win, win, win.
I would bear everyone in mind, whether you're in the community or listening to this, like what 4 Chain and what Ruggiero, our building has never existed before.
Okay.
And so they will give you rough deadlines, like Kenton was saying, you know, being respectful, saying months.
Like you need to be a little forgiving because we don't know what we don't know.
Right.
There may be unforeseen challenges.
Oh, that reminds me, Hans, you know, we had on with Regere Perks earlier on, we had a
little bit of a scaling issue, you know, with, you know, people trying to do perks and the
site was go down.
And then there was like a bandwidth issue relative to the infrastructure we have.
Can you give an update on that?
Are we looking more and more solid on that front?
Yeah, this is a very weird one.
So, yes, we're moving in the right direction is the short piece.
It's not actually a scaling issue per se.
It's not that we can't handle the volume of users.
The, there's a way kind of like,
I don't wanna say idiosyncrasy, like the,
I'm gonna get really deep into the technical weeds.
Go for it.
So there is an issue where occasionally
high volume nodes will do what is called app hashing,
which is every block, the node checks
that the hash of the new app state is what it's expecting.
And if it's not, then it'll halt
because this is Tendermint
and it's how the consensus mechanism works
mechanism works and it favors correctness over liveness. We have found that nodes that have
and it favors correctness over liveness.
high query volume tend to app hash more and then require restoring. The reason for which I'm not
sure yet is potentially to do with the way that the state is marshalled and unmarshalled out of the root store.
But it's strange because it shouldn't,
like the request volume shouldn't make any difference.
It's, yeah, we're working on redundancy.
We're working on improving stability,
but it's not, yeah, like I say,
it's not like a, it's not a code problem.
It's not a volume problem it's not it's not a
volume problem it's just a kind of yeah potentially a thawano problem but not
really a thawano problem because because it's you know we're asking it to do a
lot like a huge amount so the first time you load your account right you connect
your MetaLask wallet whatever it is it'll load ten different accounts it
needs to load all the balances for all this like provide your entire portfolio
particularly for your Regera wallets, which shows your LP positions, your lending positions, your
index positions, your purpose positions, like all of this.
And we want to do that in a sensible timeframe.
So I don't want to sit there and say, oh, wait for five minutes while we index your portfolio.
We want it to respond in a sensible timeframe, like half a second.
And it's not a small thing to do,
but that's gonna be a thousand RPC requests
to collect your portfolio.
And just to show that one,
like, you know, we wanna show you a number top right.
And just take your notes and go out here right now.
Top right, like show your portfolio value.
And it seems like it's one number,
but it is like a thousand Rpc requests that we have to
execute in half a second to show you your portfolio and that's key right because you want to know how
like what your value is oh yeah this is this is the value of your tokens accept your limited orders
and accept your perp positions right it's meaningless so um we set high standards that
we want to create this proper experience.
Like you get on the essential exchanges, but trying to build it on top of truly
decentralized infrastructure is hard, right?
Cause like contrast, it's right.
I spent my career building web two stuff and this would have been like a very
simple SQL database query and you just summed a bunch of things and you'd have
got it in like a hundred milliseconds, less than that.
And it would have been easy, but it's's not it's not that easy when you're building with decentralized
data stores right and i'm glad i'm that's why i kind of answered the question i wanted you to
break down just how incredibly complicated and nuanced that issue is just to give the audience
a sense of just like the things that can happen that are just like come out of left field. And you're like, Whoa, what in the heck? Um, so yeah, guys, that's why they don't
give timelines. Um, because you know, I, I'm not technical enough to understand fully what
Hans just said there. My understanding is superficial just because, you know, I don't
have that coding experience that he does, but I think everyone listening to that understands that
there's just things that were going to happen that we're going to run into that because this has never existed before.
So I would just encourage everyone to please like, you know, and not saying take your eye off the ball, but be a little forgiving and be understanding if they want to take a few extra weeks or a few extra days to fully prove something out and to work out all the kinks in the double and
triple and quadruple check things. So that's all, that's it all I got on that. Gosh dang,
you guys, I feel like this has been an extremely signal packed space. Kenton,
have you got anything, buddy? I can keep going if, if, if, if hands can.
I got a question for you hands. Memolaist swaps is coming soon to ThorChain.
That's where you don't have to connect your wallet
to a website.
Will Rujira be able to incorporate that?
Or you still have to connect your wallet to Rujira?
No, no, no, no, yeah.
So Memolist swaps is basically,
it's not Memolist's you pre-register
your memo against either, and this is still being ironed out, I think, either your deposit
address or some encoding of the amount.
There is a feature of Secured Assets plus the Cosmism integration, which is called the
exec memo, which much as
you can send a memo to a deposit to the blockchain, send a memo that says swap to BTC. You can
now send a memo that says open a limit order or deposit into this purpose pool or whatever
it is. And so one memo is one memo it's this is something that I think actually potentially
stands to benefit Applayer in an outsized way because a lot of these memos are going to be
large you know they've got large contract execution payloads the kind of thing that
doesn't fit into like 80 bytes or not return on bitcoin or whatever so
um so yeah i think it'll be exciting i think i um i do have something here um kenton let's do if you want to add to something real quick go ahead okay um someone pointed out um that we didn't i think
maybe boone was on ask this um what is the progress on the bitcoin back stable coin um uh do we have a progress
report on that at all cons same as before same as same as the last question i want credit accounts
is all of this this is this is like this is this is this is why i'm so excited about this it's like
it's just like perfect synergy where credit accounts and a lending vault where instead
of lending tokens, you mint the tokens.
It creates, that is everything.
You parameterize that and you deploy it in certain configurations and you get perps,
you get futures, you get stable coin, you get synthetics, you get stocks, you get all
of these things in one go with one protocol.
Awesome stuff, you guys. Guys, you need to share the space. Please share the space. When this thing ends, also, you need to tell people about this. The stuff that's been said here is just
absolutely legendary. It's zero to one, right guys? This is literally the zero to one. This
is the original ethos. It is our responsibility to tell the world about this. They're not going to come here for no reason.
We have to be proactive. So I encourage everyone, whether you're a Thor chain,
or if you're just a stranger and you're just learning for the first time and you're excited
about what you're hearing, please share the space with someone, whether they're a builder or anything
else. Um, Ruggira is actively looking for teams.
If you have something cool, a new primitive, a DeFi primitive
that you think belongs from Rujira, you need to reach out as well.
Okay?
This is really exciting, guys.
There's something called the Rujira Alliance.
Maybe I'll let you talk about that, Hans, if you want.
Let me kick it to you.
Like, why should teams come to Rujira, if you don't mind?
Yeah, I mean, like, if you want...
So, I mean, the key piece here, right,
is you can, if you have an idea for products,
you can write it in Silvility,
you can deploy it to Ethereum,
then you deploy it to wherever base,
and then Optimism, and then Hayvacs,
wherever you want to deploy it.
And then you have to rewrite it in,
for Solana, then you have to rewrite it for somewhere else.
And each time, you know, you deploy it on Solana
and you want to get ETH, you have to bridge your ETH
over with wormhole or how we get in there.
Or you want BTC and you have to use RAP BTC.
But you have to kind of make a compromise
around how you get these assets.
And fundamentally that's the key piece, right?
It's like, what assets can I use in my protocol?
Whereas you come and build on Rudy and you write your contract once
and for every single chain that ThorChain adds as a supported layer one,
you can now add it. And it's just, as I say, I've said this a lot, it's another parameterization of
your protocol. You just deploy a new instance of the contract and you can support SOL and now you
can support XRP and you can support TR and maybe you can support xrp and you can support trx you can support all these things
friggin awesome uh kenton do you have uh more for cons
i do yeah can you hear me i checked yes sir the um i'm curious are you guys do you stay in touch
with any like market makers,
traders, OTC desks that are like,
keeping an eye on what you're doing.
And then, you know, once you're ready and you're live,
that they're like, they're eager to jump in
and start playing with it.
Do you have those kinds of relationships?
Yeah, it's about my pay grade though.
But yeah, yeah, we do.
So you're not building in a vacuum basically like it's not
people are aware they are paying attention yeah no we're like this is this is also part of kind
of where we realized we fell down a bit on in the coosie days was that we didn't engage these kind
of people so like refresh momentum refreshed energy more people more opportunities to talk
to these new well to talk to market makers and to bring people like this in.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, Kenton, looks like he rubbed there.
Okay.
Yeah, that's good.
I think one thing that you mentioned that's very important, Hans, is, you know, like we, as this community, like back in 2021, whether you're on the Ruggiero,ujira side, whether you're on the Thor chain side, we are very different now.
You know, we set out with an ethos and a goal and we didn't know how to accomplish either of those. Right.
And we just kept firing away and plinking at it. And so, you know, I love that you said that, Hans, because it just shows that, you know, we've grown and we've realized our mistakes.
you know, we, we've grown and we've realized our mistakes. Um, and that's true with anybody,
you know, um, you, you know, when you have to build something the first time is like the light
bulb, you know, you're going to make a thousand designs and finally, but I really feel like Hans,
you know, given what you said, all the things we've talked about today, we are so fricking
close now. We are so unbelievably close. I fact, in fact, I mean the, the, the foundations there,
we literally just have to build it,
test it, and ship it.
Am I wrong about that?
No, I think you're right.
I think the thing about this space, right?
And I kind of alluded to it earlier, I guess,
with the whole 2017 Ice Cream Mania comment
was that it's so easy to rub, right?
It's so easy just to kind of like do a thing,
raise a million dollars,
and then, oh, hey, I've got a million dollars more than i had yesterday and then just kind of disappear but there are
there aren't that many people that really kind of subscribe and are invested in that cypherpunk
ideal that like you know we should be like permissionless and we should be community-owned
and it should be egalitarian and all these things right
because even even if you start out like that and you think you believe like that
it's very easy to have your head turned but and it takes it takes time right like you you can't find out which people want to build these futures in a week because you it's just not enough time
and like ethereum when he was only launched I say only launched in 2016, right?
So what, eight, nine years now.
And it's still got a huge amount of time.
And over those years, you kind of,
you weed the people out and the people
that aren't here anymore, that kind of, you know,
pretended like they were here for the, you know,
the core mission or the root principles
just sort of aren't here anymore.
And those that still are
and still here and kicking and i think that for me like this is this is part of like the the real
value of the like the the alignment with all chains that i feel like there is that alignment
and there's a lot of the 410 community and you know we had our off site last week with
all the 410 community my guys rudy guys and you can just you can feel it right there's a lot of
people that have been around for years now
and they're still here, they're still doing it,
they're still kicking.
And also with the opportunity to,
some of them to have just disappeared and be like,
oh, I'm fine, I've got enough money.
I don't need to do anything.
And so it's not, it's not a financially motivated thing anymore.
And I think that's, yeah, that's key, right?
Absolutely, 100%.
Kenton, you want to check your mic real quick?
Back, you're back, brother.
No worries.
That's how X is.
I love what you're saying there, Hans.
I caught a bit of it.
You're saying we're all real cypherpunks.
We're all carrying the torch.
We're all seeing the same end game. We're all working towards the same goal. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, that's it. And I think actually, to kind of extend that a bit, I suppose, without wanting to ramble too much, I think the cypherpunk ideals are great, right?
for some people they really resonate but what we really have to do is kind of understand how
the products that those cypherpunk ideals build are actually valuable to to everybody right because
because there are a a very few people that kind of really for whom those kind of things resonate with
we need to understand how we build products that um that reach a wider audience and so for me this
is and i'm going to go right back so for me, this is,
and I'm gonna go right back to the start here,
this is exactly what we're talking about
when we talk about community ownership
and disintermediation, right?
You can now participate in liquidations,
you can fundraise,
you can do all these things that require expensive lawyers.
And now we've removed these expensive lawyers
and expensive contracts
from participating in these financial activities. Who can we now reach to right you can now fundraise for your sandwich shop an
ipo on the same day right it's impossible in traditional world or you could participate in
liquidations on a purchase market none of the current existing exchanges will let you do that
and this is this is like the the product from the cyberpunk ideals. We've got to kind of get beyond it a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
And, you know, just to add on what you say,
like this is something that I want everyone in the community
just internalized.
Like this isn't Han's responsibility.
It's not my responsibility, Kenton's responsibility.
This is all of our responsibility, right?
Like we have to do this together
and we are going to do this 100%. So
take it upon yourself to be proactive. Ask what you can do to contribute because all of us here,
if we work together, this is 100% going to happen. We just got to make it happen. Go ahead, Kenton.
No, that's great. I was going to ask Hans if there's anything else he wanted to talk about
that we haven't brought up something on his
mind no I think we're good I've had a ample opportunity so it's been great thank you guys
yeah do you have to go buddy and you gave us 30 extra minutes I'm so appreciative of you do you
have to run no it's all good I'm enjoying it no it's fine I've got nothing else to say myself but
if there's any questions I'm happy to stick, guys, this is a call of the audience. Please request,
if you want to come up and ask any questions, you know,
I'm not going to give a lot of people to do it. Please don't be shy.
If you have something you want to be asked, now is the opportunity.
Let's respect Han's time. Otherwise, if there's no questions, you know,
we'll get them back to coding. You know what I mean?
I think that's what he wants to do.
Back to credit accounts.
There you go. There you go. Yeah, I think, you know, one thing, I think that's what he wants to do. Facts credit accounts. There you go. There you go.
Yeah, I think, you know, one thing, I think we nailed it, though.
I think we got a lot of signal.
We don't like noise.
On a ThorChain space or a Jira space, we don't do noise, boys and girls.
We're all about the goods.
We respect everyone's time.
We deliver the fruit.
That's what we do.
You know, we don't come up here and play with each other's wieners.
We talk about what we need to talk about, okay?
So, guys, please request if you want to ask any questions. here and play with each other's wieners we talk about what we need to talk about okay so guys
please request if you want to ask any questions but if no one requests i guess that means we did
a pretty damn good job covering all the angles so i'm pretty happy with uh with the show today
yeah i think it's great i think we let's wrap it up nice and short and sweet this time
okay yeah um let's okay then um oh here we got we got one someone requesting
someone requesting rio i don't know who you are man i'm sorry like i'm not gonna bring you up
uh i looked at your account i go with my gut not happening sorry got another one requesting
um let's see here yeah okay we'll do that one okay
Let's see here.
Yeah, okay, we'll do that one.
Okay.
Dustin, I'm gonna invite someone called Dustin.
Go ahead, Dustin.
To your time, I just wanna say thank you so much
for taking the time to engage with us.
It's really awesome to hear directly from the horse's mouth
and keeps the community motivated.
So thank you.
Pleasure.
I'm enjoying it.
I know.
I'm really glad you came up to said that, Dustin, actually, because, you know, I think
like Chad Bareford, he wants to start doing the spaces on like Thursday, right?
I think they're highly valued.
People, you know, want to hear from developers, even though they're super busy.
When developers just take like an hour or two two like once a week or every month or something
i think that is so helpful to help communicate to the community keep everyone in line especially
the question i talked about with regera perps and just those weird nuances that we run into you know
like when people understand just how complex and crazy things can be. I think it helps temper, you know, the under, or it helps people understand, you know, like
from day to day, things can just get, you know, change.
And again, it's, it's the details.
It's the edge cases.
It's the nuance that hold us back sometimes, but nothing that we can't solve.
Okay, guys, let me check one more time.
I think that is, that's going to be it.
I think I appreciate everyone coming in. I'm going
to say it again. You guys, please share this fricking space. This is a diamond. Okay. This
is a gem. This is a gem alert right now. You've seen that meme. This was a great space. We laid
it out, I think pretty efficiently and we went pretty deep. Kenton, I'm going to kick it to you
real quick. If you've got any closing thoughts, and then I think we'll wrap.
No, that's good.
It's great.
Yeah, I agree with you, Dustin.
It's nice to hear from the devs.
Hans, hopefully, you know, we can do this more often, you know, once every few weeks type thing.
Would be great.
If Saturdays aren't good, we can do another day too.
If Fridays aren't good, we can do another day too.
I'll let you guys know,
I'm going to do a space on Monday at 3 p.m. Eastern.
And he's behind, forgive me,
I don't know if it's Nunes or Noones.
It's spelled N-O-O-N-E-S.
And I kind of pitched him on Twitter
to like integrate ThorChain. And he's like, what's ThorChain? And I'm like, well on Twitter to like integrate Thor chain.
And he's like, what's Thor chain? And I'm like, well, come on a space.
Let's talk about it. So and try and turn him into a Thor chat.
So that'll be Monday afternoon.
And then next Saturday at this time, we've got Chad Bareford.
He's going to come on and chat with us. That'll be great.
And then the weekend after that, we've got the Litecoin community.
Right, Patriot?
Yeah, I'm so excited about the Litecoin community because, you know, I went to a Litecoin conference in Las Vegas in 2022.
I got to meet Johnny Litecoin and a lot of people.
And I told them, you know, back then we were so young, you guys.
We were so young. And I don't even think I told them, you know, back then we were so young, you guys. We were so young.
And I don't even think I was that good of an educator back then.
I was still like kind of winging it a little bit.
But I cannot wait for them to learn what Thorchain has become
and especially Ruggiero and all the cool things they can do.
So I kind of like if Ruggiero guys want to come up
and help like communicate to them what you guys have built,
I'm not the best educator.
I still have to learn quite a lot about Erujira.
I feel insecure when I try to talk about Erujira
just because I don't have that history
and there's just so much information though.
But okay, guys, with that said,
I think we're gonna wrap.
Thank you to all the speakers, to all the listeners.
Again, share the space right now.
If this is a recording, I'm looking at you.
Share the damn space.
Thank you, Kenton.
Thank you, Code Hans.
You're an absolute lesson.
Dustin, thank you.
Boone, thank you for your question.
Everyone, I hope you have a terrific rest of your weekend.
God bless.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.
