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Chads Lounge - THORChain Eco Weekly Hangout
Recorded: June 28, 2025 Duration: 2:55:30Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, ThorChain co-founders and community members explored the integration of XRP, the potential for innovative trading features like limit swaps, and the importance of marketing to drive growth. The conversation highlighted the community's resilience and commitment to expanding ThorChain's user base, positioning it as a leading player in the decentralized finance space.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Hello, mic check.
Can you guys hear me? . You were audible.
Oh, thank you, sir.
Just waiting for everyone else to come.
Patriot Sound should be here.
I know he's on.
Patriot's in an
XRP space
chatting with people trying to
spread the word.
They're pretty fun. I've joined
a few of them.
They're a good, lighthearted group.
But you
gotta love them because they're integrated.
Yeah.
And I don't see Chad anywhere either.
Can I make a suggestion?
We all take a second.
I think who we debate or who should be interested among our integrated partners.
In turn, shape shift.
You're cutting in and out quite a bit.
Your connection is your connection or your microphone?
Correct.
Try it again.
I'll likely need to recycle.
I'll likely need to recycle.
Oh, that's better. I can hear you.
I can hear you.
I was just suggesting for us to quote, post, and invite specific people intentionally.
Sure. Who do you have in mind?
I'd say any of the integrated coins and or front ends.
Yeah, but for sure, all means.
I can't, I have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time.
So if some people listening want to do it, great.
Yeah.
And if you could enable, if you could enable comments, I'm not sure if you could enable after you launch, but there's no comments available.
What do you mean no comments available?
Typically in spaces, you can leave a comment at the bottom.
Currently, my only option currently is to send you a fist or a clap.
Okay, let me see.
Give me a second.
Never rush, no pressure.
it's to the comment is to the bottom right right like to the right of the uh of the post um
hey guys um i don't think comments comments can't be toggled on and off i just think it's the
x's are messed up like when i can't like as a host, I often see the comment thing and I can't use it. So I don't,
I don't think you can really turn comments off.
I just think sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
That's my understanding because it's really inconsistent.
So my, my uneducated guess is it needs to be initiated prior to launch.
That may be the case. i'm only a guess now there
is no there is no thing for comments when you go to make a space as far as i know so i know there
is there isn't it's only record that's the only thing you have to do before when you create the
space is select record um but yeah i know i know you're saying shape shift i can. I can't press on the comment. The comment button isn't working for me either.
But Chad B, he messaged me saying he's going to be five minutes late.
Why don't we just kind of get started and, you know,
Patreon, let's kind of do what we've been doing and introduce ourselves
because I'm sure we're going to have lots of OG Thorch ads on this one,
but we also want new people as well, right?
So for those of you
who don't know, my name is Kenton.
I have a fund that invests in Rune
and runs nodes on Thorchain.
And so I'm a node operator
on Thorchain.
And I've been doing these spaces
with Patriot now for,
I don't know, going on a few months, eh?
Yeah, that's correct, man. And we're going to keep doing them um because they're great it's a great way to outreach and uh um yeah guys my name's uh patriot sounds my real name's denny um i just
actually went to an xrp um space and try to get them in here just so they can learn more about us
guys i gotta say i've been spending a lot of time with XRPers, and they are actually a really wonderful community, and they have been so
excited that we integrated XRP. So if you're an XRPer, and you're here, and you're listening
to this recording, if you're listening to this recording, thanks. I appreciate it. And please
reach out if you want to do any collab or anything like that, because I love your guys' community,
and I think you're all awesome. Oh, we got Chad B on stage now. Awesome. Hey, Chad, how's it going?
Hey, guys, how are you?
Good to you. And Chad, if you don't mind introducing yourself because I know we're going to have lots of older
Thor Chads on the space, but we also have new ones, too, who might actually be new to you.
So if you can do a quick intro of yourself that'd be great yeah sure so I'm Chad I'm one of the co-founders of Thorchain I
started it with JP and another individual in 2019 born out of a
cosmos hackathon where JP and I had met and started whacking on this thing.
So it's been a long, long years.
And for most of that time,
I've been managing most of the technical stuff.
I think, to my knowledge,
I think most of the code is still mine today.
I haven't checked in a while,
but I think that's probably still true.
I'm also a main contributor for a very long time.
Weren't there like four to six people on top of you and JP. Weren't there like four to six people,
like on top of you and JP,
weren't there like four other people that helped write code and contribute?
In the first, in the beginning, no.
It was just me and Heimdall for the first,
I don't know, maybe like a year, two years
for like they're doing like the core dev stuff.
We had a couple other engineers
that were working on other things
that those people didn't work out
so well.
They didn't really produce much.
We had another person that was doing the threshold signature
stuff.
At the time, it was GG18.
That person was a cartographer and an expert in threshold
signatures.
So it was a good addition.
I don't think we actually hired a new new dev until much later that i can recall i
think nine realms was one of the earlier ones i would probably say oh wow uh what wasn't uh so
thor chain wasn't it like envisioned or created during a hackathon in germany was it 2019 or 2020
kid like how did you guys how did you have the aha moment about like thor chain like what what
do you remember that at all?
Like, when it just kind of clicked, like, holy shit, we can do this.
Yeah.
Yeah, so JP had started with the notion about a year earlier than when I had got involved.
He had tried to do it on his own.
He had hired a dev, like, firm out of Vietnam or someplace, or Bulgaria,
whatever the hell it was. And it didn't work out for a host of reasons, but one of the
reasons was that official signatures weren't real at that time. And so it was a question
about how do you secure all this stuff. And the cryptography wasn't there in 2018. And
in 2019, you had the Cosmos framework was wasn't there in 2018 and in 2019 you had uh the
cosmos kind of framework was kind of launched we were one of the earlier adopters of the cosmos
framework um um and we had gg18 came out as well so the all the technical pieces came together in
in 2019 uh and and we just needed more dedicated engineering people that could deeply understand the space and build out what this vision was.
But it was funny because earlier on, I remember JP and I would have these discussions.
We were both living in Melbourne together for a few months, and we were whiteboarding every day and coding and whatever.
And I remember he would ask me if this was even going to work.
And I always knew it was going to work.
There was no question whether or not it was going to work or not.
It was just a question of how long would it take to actually get to the place where you
could actually build it.
Because this is really one of the most complicated projects in the industry.
I still kind of stand by that.
It's one of the most difficult projects in the industry from a technology perspective.
But I always knew it was going to work.
It was just a question of how long would it take to get there.
And for me, I was working 9am to midnight every day for about a year and a half, seven
days a week.
I just fully plugged in for a long time to get this thing to actually function and work.
And I thankfully had Heimdall with me at that time too.
Heimdall was actually part-time for most of that time though,
because he had another job somewhere else.
But he was obviously an important component of that as well,
without a doubt.
Wow, right on.
Well then, but after all that work, you actually, you took a break.
You stepped away for about a year, right?
And now you're back in the saddle.
Are you, have you caught up?
Are you, you mentioned how complicated Torchian is.
I mean, I imagine a lot changed in that year.
Were you able to kind of see what's changed,
kind of pick up where you left off?
Are you back running now full speed?
You know, where are you in that process?
Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm back to like 100% speed
because it is a complicated code base
and you have to remind yourself where all the code is
and what all the code does,
which is a lot of code in this thing.
And I've caught up on a lot of things we've done over the past year.
I step back for personal reasons
and I'm back to help the community build and move forward
and all that kind of stuff.
But yeah, my brain is kind of well-greased enough
to get my hands dirty in the code,
and I've been trying to work on limit swaps and rapid swaps
since I got back.
And so that's an ongoing project of mine.
I'm trying to get that thing launched in the next maybe couple months.
Well, what are those again? Can you explain them to us?
Sure. So one of them is what I'm calling limit swaps. So when you do a trade today,
it's effectively a market swap, right? You're just like, here's a bunch of Bitcoin,
give me as much Ether as you can with a limit of don't give me less than, you know, five Ether or whatever the hell the number is.
And if it can't do that, then it just does a refund, right?
Like we can't give you the, you know, the five Ether that you wanted.
So we're going to give you back your Bitcoin.
It's a limit swap.
It's like a small tweak on that where you can just say, well, just wait until you can give me five Ether or, you know, or whatever.
just say, well, just wait until you can give me five Ether or whatever.
And so it just holds on to your order, waiting for the pool to adjust itself into a ratio
between Bitcoin and Ether, so to speak, to get you what you want.
So that's the first component.
So you can just sit there and wait for, you know, have an open order to sell your Bitcoin
for Ether or whatever when the price hits a certain
price that you're looking for.
That's the first component.
And then the second component is what we've been calling rapid swaps, although to be honest,
it's not really a great name.
The idea behind that is that because you have limit orders, limit swaps, and arbitrage bots
can just put a ratio between Bitcoin and Ether or whatever.
Whenever somebody's swapping in the other direction, they can just swap multiple times against that ARP.
So you can just like doing a streaming swap, but doing it all in a single block versus doing it over 10 blocks or 100 blocks.
So it just makes a streaming swap a lot faster and maybe same block execution so back to the limit swaps I mean that's basically just
doing partial fills instead of an all-or-none order you you're doing
partial feel all right it'll do a partial fill at the ratio that you're
requesting until it can you know do the whole thing so let's say i'm trying to sell one bitcoin for
forgive my math guys uh uh 30 eth um and uh but i only get filled on 16 eth am i allowed can i
then be like well you know what i'm going to cancel my order and just take that 16 eth and
whatever bitcoin i have left over and just pull it back
to my wallet? Or yeah, how does that work? Yes, there's a modification ability where you can
modify one of these limit swaps. And if you set the trade target to zero, then it's effectively
telling you that you want to cancel. So you can either cancel midway and it'll give you, you know,
half your Bitcoin back and maybe 15 of the ETH or whatever it is that happened.
Or you can just sit there and wait for it to execute the rest of it.
It's up to you.
Cool.
So basically like a regular – and that's how trading works on the stocks, on a stock brokerage account.
So you're basically copying that.
So you're basically copying that.
It's similar to like an order book, but an order book is just like you have buyers and
sellers and you're matching buyers and sellers together.
Here there's no order book like matching people, it's more of just matching to the pool itself.
And so because everybody's swaps are being cut up into small pieces with a streaming
swap, it's just like pushing the pool up and down, up and down, up and down, and down back and forth back and forth back and forth between two limit swaps going in opposite directions
so theoretically they should be able to execute all of that in a single block
so these limit swaps they're not going to be utilizing uh order books on trade assets
um i mean you can use trade assets uh with with with a limit swap if you want to, sure.
I think that's one of the best use cases for this kind of new feature to me is for ARBs.
It allows ARBs to ARB much more efficiently, right?
It allows them to be able to ARB the pool immediately in the same block rather than
doing more swaps in later blocks, which takes more time, which means the amount of time it takes for them to readjust their portfolio
on the other side or through another exchange or whatever would be faster,
which means the ARB flow, like the rate of flow of ARB funds,
theoretically should increase, which should give us just better price execution.
Well, if I'm a regular user, I want to go place a limit swap.
I have to deposit, send in my Bitcoin to ThorChain, right?
How is that being held?
Is that being held as a trade asset, a secured asset?
Is it going to the pool?
How is ThorChain accounting for my one Bitcoin?
Yeah, well, in that scenario, if you did like a limit swap from Bitcoin directly, then it wouldn't be a trade asset in that case.
It would just operate as a Bitcoin that's sitting outside of the pool.
And then it's just trading and trading and trading, kind of sucking at each stream swap, sub-swap.
It takes a little piece of it, swaps it, and then swaps a little bit more and swaps a little bit more.
And then on the inside,
you have hopefully all the Bitcoin's gone
and now you have a bunch of Ether
and the Ether gets sent out to you.
So is this like a new...
I mean, we've got pulled assets,
trade assets, secured assets.
Is this going to be like a new asset on ThorChain?
No, it's not really a new asset.
It's just a regular Bitcoin.
It's just not sitting inside the pool.
It's sitting outside of the pool,
and it's slowly being put in the pool as a streaming swap.
So it's not really a new asset per se.
It's just like you have a streaming swap associated going on,
which is tracked in the KV store,
and it knows how much Bitcoin you put it in
and how much Ether it's swapped to
and how much Bitcoin it's kind of spent to get that Ether
and how much it kind of tracks all that information
within that streaming swap kind of details.
And then at the end of it, it just kind of settles.
Which wherever it tracks, it's got to settle.
So will these limit swap orders,
they'll contribute to the TVL of the network then?
Basically, ThorChain's securing that order while it's waiting to be filled.
So it wouldn't, I mean, technically speaking, yes.
But like if you look at the TVL metrics, I don't know how the TVL metrics actually work.
Because it's not Bitcoin in the pool.
If you look at the TVLs on like how deep the pools are, then this wouldn't be counted in that kind of calculation. If you
look at like the wallets and how much Bitcoin's in the wallets, you're right, then that's,
then it would be counted as part of TVL. It's just a mentor like how do you want, what constitutes
TVL? Is it what's in the pools or what's stored as assets you know because then it's like
our our trade assets are those uh part of tvl yes no i mean it just depends on how you want to
define the word no well my mind it does because it's what the nodes are securing
right where these are the exogenous assets that the network is securing.
Yeah, but there's an assumption with that,
that TVL is equal to so much liquidity,
which is not necessarily the case here,
because you can have a trade asset that's not doing anything.
It's just sitting in a wallet, not really doing jack shit.
And so is it contributing to the liquidity of the network in that moment?
Technically, no, it's not. It's just kind of sitting in a wallet so it's like tvl is kind of a kind of a funny term because you can look at it as like how much locked value is there the network that's
one way to look at it or how much of the how much assets does it have that contribute to its liquidity
or its ability to execute its function that's another definition of the word yeah for sure for sure um well cool man
so then okay so that's limit swaps uh tell me more so how i don't understand how rapid swaps
is going to work how can you have a streaming swap that normally takes a 24 hours all go through in
one block i don't how to help me with that, please. So in a sense, imagine you have two traders, right?
One's selling some Bitcoin to Ether, and the other one's selling some Ether into Bitcoin.
Now, the size doesn't really matter because the streaming swap size is the same.
So even if my value going from Bitcoin to Ether, let's just call it $1 million.
And then, you know, Kenton here, he's trading $2 million from Ether to Bitcoin.
We can basically execute half of my trade and all of your trade in a single block with
the streaming swap because what will happen is your swap will go through like one of your
little small sub swaps and then one of my sub swaps will go through as well.
And then yours will go through and then mine will go through and then yours will go through and then mine will go through
and we're just like pushing the same value back and forth through the pool, back and
forth, back and forth until my million dollars in Bitcoin that I have has already been spent
and you've got a million dollars worth of Ether still kind of waiting to swap.
So from my perspective, my streaming swap of $1 million happened in a single block with the same execution as if it took, you know, 100 blocks or whatever
it is, 24 hours or whatever. And for you, half of yours is already taken care of. This is waiting
for either the pool to the price to move in your direction, or somebody comes, you know, swapping
from another person comes in with a Bitcoin to ETH trade
and they're kind of starting to eat into you.
You're eating into each other or trading with each other,
using the pool as the medium between the two.
Well, with a rapid swap, are we cutting out the pool as a middleman?
Like everyone has to go to the pool.
I'm sorry.
Everybody goes to the pool.
Like there's no outside pool trades happening within this that
it was outside the pool that would be an order book which is what app layer uh is working on
okay that's that that has value too like that has a good use case for that but for me i just want
to make sure that the base foundation of thort chain is as efficient and as flexible and powerful
as we can make it you know by adding limit swaps and you know we can make it, you know, by adding limit swaps.
And, you know, we could do something like, you know, like stop loss, right, is a theoretical
thing we could support. Whether we do or not, I don't know, that's another conversation. But
like, but my question, I'm always just trying to think about how can we make the base layer
more useful and more valuable. And I think if we add more advanced trading features,
like limit swaps, for example,
that's going to engage with a new class of trader.
Like we don't really have traders on ThorChain per se.
We have swappers,
which is people who just have a wallet on TrustWallet,
you know, and they have some Bitcoin
and they want some Ether to make a trade.
And it's not people who actually traders who actually like, you know,
do charting and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and day trade and make kind of analysis of future movements and whatnot. And by adding like more advanced trading functionality, we can kind of
invite those types of people, those traders who would have much more volume than the kind of hobbyist swappers might.
And so we can actually really give more depth and attract a much larger audience and therefore
a lot more liquidity and hopefully a lot more trade volume.
You know, that's the intent.
Absolutely.
Yeah, rapid swap sounds actually really cool. I mean, that's basically what clearinghouses rapid swaps sounds actually really cool i mean that's
basically what clearing houses do in the stock brokerage industry they just tally up all their
trades at the end of the day they net out each other you know what is the net between them all
and that's all they move between them and uh yeah just makes it way more efficient um yeah so are
these so you know you you took a year off,
you come back, and you're back at work.
Is limit swaps or rapid swaps, has this
been cooking in your brain for the last year
or two type thing? And this is like the first thing
you wanted to get done and get shipped?
Oh yeah. I actually had
the code for limit swaps
implemented
2021 or 2020, 2022 I think, probably 2022.
Actually, it was sitting in the code base.
It's just been like partially implemented, mostly implemented.
Actually, I did that before even streaming swaps existed in the code base.
So it's been around for a long time. It's something I've been wanting to do for a long time.
And I just had a hard time getting it merged, in effect,
which is really sad because it's a really powerful feature that
could increase our volume quite significantly.
And I would even go as far to like, here's my prediction.
You guys can my hot take prediction.
You guys can hold me to later.
But eventually, limit swaps will will
exceed uh market swaps the swaps we've been doing this whole time and limits will be in terms of
volume will be higher than um than regular swaps are i don't know how fast it'll be maybe in the
first three months maybe six but like to me that's an inevitable thing to happen just because it's
But like, to me, that's an inevitable thing to happen just because it's a much more efficient tool for ARBs.
I agree with you, man.
Absolutely.
And I'm actually really looking forward to this because streaming swaps is, you know, in my view, that was a real big game changer in Torchain over the last few years.
Oh, it's huge.
It made a big difference.
Yeah.
That's probably the most important feature we added in the protocol, I would say.
It had the most significant effect to getting much more volumes.
I remember when streaming swaps, the idea came to me and I was discussing it with JP and all these.
And I remember some people on the team were thinking, well, we don't need streaming swaps because nobody's going to want to trade more than $10,000 on ThorChain.
because nobody's going to want to trade more than $10,000 on ThorChain.
It's never going to happen.
And I was like, I don't know about that because, you know,
there are big whales out there who want to trade much larger volumes.
And we've seen people do, like, I remember we saw a $6 million trade,
I think it was BDC to WBDC, but the WBDC pool was only $4 million deep.
And we had a $6 million dollar trade which is such a like it's
an unheard of notion that you would not see on any other amm that i that i at least not list that i
know of um that's just completely impractical but streaming swaps made that possible and want to add
to your to your anecdote i don't know i don't it barely moved the price in wbtc like the price of
the pool was stable that whole time.
You'd think it would throw the price out of whack, but it didn't.
Yeah, because of that slow streaming swap thing,
so ARBs could ARB effectively.
And the slip was like, I think it was like 100 basis points,
135 basis points, which is not that bad
considering you're swapping more than 50% of the pool
itself. Like that's, that's pretty darn good. Yeah. Well, you, so on limit swaps, you mentioned
the code has been there for a while. You've, you've had actually a bit of a hard time on the
merge requests. Can you, was it like, uh, like kind of some questions around the code, like around
security or just not enough developer time to kind of just get it done?
You know, what was the holdup?
I mean, the holdup was, I mean, Nine Realms in general had a very different mentality than JP and I.
We're kind of at odds, but at odds in a positive way in a sense.
Like JP and I are both kind of more on the vision side.
We're more kind of shippers.
We like to get things done, you know, get things out the door, move fast.
And Nine Realms has always been more of like, let's create more stability.
Let's create, you know, more solid foundations and prepare from like, you know.
And so JP and I are like
more like zero to one
kind of guys
in some sense.
And Nine Realms
is more like a one to ten
kind of guys
in some sense.
And so like,
there's like a natural
disagreement about things.
And so almost every feature
that myself and JP,
with the exception
maybe one or two,
but almost every feature
was opposed by Nine Realms,
including streaming swaps. Not all, but not everybody at Nine Realms, including streaming swaps.
Not everybody at Nine Realms, but some were against it,
and it took a little convincing to get it out the door and all that kind of stuff.
But I think it was just as a time of resource time as well.
It was hard to get Nine Realms engaged in some of the code changes.
They were focused on some things within their own space, with their own corporation of running nodes for people
and other things like that.
But I think we're in a much better place today.
We can move more solidly, more fluidly today
than we could have in 2022, which I'm actually quite happy
about.
It's a positive result of all this drama
is that we actually can move much more smoothly, which is great.
I'm actually appreciative of that in a sense.
But yeah, it's something I wanted to do a long time ago
and been pushing for.
And now that I'm back, I'm looking at the list of things
that I want to see done.
And I got about nine different things
that I want to see done over the next six months, maybe 12.
But to me, RapidSwap is arguably the most important in terms of its economic upside to the protocol.
For sure. It sounds like it to me, too.
Regarding Nine Realms, I mean, there's been a bit of turnover there.
There's lots of new names now we see in Discord.
Has the culture in Nine Realms maybe changed a bit?
Were they a bit more agreeable?
Or is it still a bit of healthy tension there?
That's a good question.
It has been a good amount of churn within the Nine Realms world.
And we have, you know, Simon's new and Rainey's new and another person just joined as well. So
I'm not sure if I should say that person's name or not. I think because we're starting
from Fresh Place, it's a lot easier to move much more smoothly. And it seemed like we're
in much agreement with each other.
I know JP and I were commenting towards each other.
We had a meeting, I don't know, maybe a month ago it was.
We were just chatting.
And one of the things we were saying was that we were very happy with the direction of where Nine Realms was going.
And we were really happy with what we have seen thus far
from Simon and Randy so far have been really positive mentalities and knowing how to move
forward. So I think we're both pretty impressed with them so far, which is really, I'm really
excited about that. It's something we've always been pushing hard for, is to get more people
involved so we're less reliant on JP and myself. But yeah, we're definitely feeling pretty good.
Go ahead.
Sorry, Kenton.
I actually can add a little bit there
because I did hang out with Orion in Las Vegas.
And Chad, dude, he is so excited that you're back, man.
And he told me anecdotally,
I think it's fine if I can say this,
that Nine Rums is really happy you're back too
because when you left that year for personal reasons, I remember someone sharing a metric on Discord of the level of code that was being shipped.
And it was like, it was, it looked like a rug pull, like on a price chart. It just went down.
So dude, no, Nine Realms is so happy that you're back. I can, I can definitely say that 100% with a straight face.
that you're back. I can definitely
say that 100% with a straight face.
Yeah, no,
I'm happy to come back in a way
as well. I kind of enjoyed my little
time off to relax and breathe after
years
of stress.
But no, I'm happy to be back
and I'm happy to be shipping again,
shipping code. And I think
there's like, we're getting
towards like, we're heading towards like we're heading towards
like an end game kind of uh mentality most of myself and jp are thinking this way that we want
to head towards ossification and that we want the base layer to become kind of rock solid uh
foundation and so there's only a handful of features that we're looking to ship make the
major features to ship over the next six or twelve months. But after that is done, I think bar mentality is mostly about, you know, improving the quality
of the code, you know, adding more chains, you know, making the code faster, more efficient,
more easily testable, you know, and just kind of maintenance stuff, you know, and let the
app layer do what the app layer is going to do, which is they're going to do all this kind of interesting, you know,
DeFi protocols on top of ThorChain's infrastructure.
I hope everyone's incurred in that because, you know,
I know we've had our trials and tribulation guys,
but I think if everyone's just listening to this right now,
understand that what ThorChain is and what we built, it was a zero to one.
It was unique. We were the pioneers.
We're the one that pushed this thing to the max.
And so whatever mistake or blunder we had,
just understand that the advances we've made
relative to that were actually mind blowing.
People always remember, I think the negative stuff,
but the positive stuff that we have accomplished
as a community, particularly under your leadership chat
has been absolutely extraordinary.
So you guys, I hope you're all feeling bullish. I mean, I really feel like you were feeling like,
I feel like we've finally figured it out. I mean, we've, you know, we have to play,
you have to experiment, you have to try new things. I mean, when you have a zero to one,
what can you build and can you redesign economics in a way that really is just so much better than,
than track five or whatever you want to say and that's
what it is so um guys uh bond your room that's what i'm going to say um kenton you were going
to say something i'll give it back to you buddy i was just going to commend uh chad and jp because
you know you know really smart people entrepreneurs successful people there you know you get that way
because you're you're strong-minded right and you have strong will and, you know, you get that way because you're strong-minded, right? And you have a strong will. And, you know, if anyone hears that, you know,
them bringing in nine realms, there's some tension, disagreement. If they hear that and
they think that's bad, I actually think it's really good. And really, it's pretty amazing
that JP and Chad would hire a team that disagrees with them. I think that shows a lot of wisdom
and humility that they know that, okay,
they can't do it all by themselves. They got to get in help. And it's good to have someone
like counterweight, right? To kind of question and whatnot. And I think that's, I think it's
very healthy. I think, I think it's really good for the longterm. And the fact that maybe there
was some people in nine realms who have left, but overall they're still here, right? Everyone's
still working together. It's just, that's life. It's how things go, right? People come and go, but the overall mission remains the same. And we're still moving in that direction, which I think is fantastic.
To add on to what you're saying and to what Patriot was saying earlier, this whole idea of cross-chain liquidity for the most part didn't really exist until ThorChain.
ThorChain was the first. In some ways, it gave birth to cross-chain liquidity, the subcategory of our industry, which is pretty amazing.
And to this day, we're still by far the leader in this particular space. There's no one that's close to us. I think Chainflip's probably the closest and they're like eight times less volume or something like this at the current moment.
So we're still one of the most profitable blockchains in the industry. We produce a huge amount of fees from people utilizing the protocol, which that should be on everybody's kind of radar.
That's like, hey, where's your real value?
There's your real value.
When you're actually getting real yield produced from people actually wanting to use your product
rather than just building Ponzi scheme factories and other ecosystems,
that's something that you really should hang your hat on and feel good and feel proud about.
Absolutely. that's something that you really should, you can hang your hat on and feel good and feel proud about.
Absolutely. That's why for me,
having no block rewards is such a big deal.
Like, isn't, correct me if I'm wrong,
but isn't ThorChain the first crypto
to get rid of his block rewards
and to survive solely on 100% of its own revenue,
like real world use?
Like, I feel like this is unheard of in crypto.
I think the closest thing is Ethereum, but they don't, so sometimes you have,
you don't have block emissions in Ethereum and sometimes you do, it depends upon market values.
So I guess we're, to my knowledge, that we would be the first ones to do it holistically.
So I think, yeah, I think we are the first ones to do that. And we can do that
because we have a fucking product that actually provides value to people, not just nonsense
protocols that just selling meme tokens or, I don't know, just gambling vehicles.
Well, exactly. The ThorChain is is solving a genuine real problem in the marketplace
whereas all these other cryptos are really solutions in the search of a problem like you
know they're just they're just taking advantage of the of the momentum of the industry um yeah
yeah so that's for me this is what kept me and keeps me going you know through especially this
last year is that it's so obvious that this is solving a real problem,
and it's succeeding at it.
And it's only getting better at doing that.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, I totally agree.
Totally agree.
We're shipping, though.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you, sorry, guys.
I wanted to ask, Chad, one more question about changes.
So what about having an order book on trade assets?
We've talked, you know, I've talked about a bit offline.
Is that something you're still interested in?
Do you think should be done, should be shipped?
Is it not a priority?
Yeah, what are your thoughts there?
An order book for trade assets?
Yeah, for the R bots to use.
I mean, I would argue that the limit swap effectively is that.
You can use it for trade assets.
You can use limit swap for trade assets as well as just L1 assets as well.
So I would argue that that's what limit swap will effectively do.
I don't think you need order books because if you're actually doing genuine order books, you're skipping the pool.
You're no longer producing the revenue in a sense, right?
Because you're not taking out fees into the pool.
So you have to have some other mechanism of collecting fees, which is fine.
But I don't think there's an intention to do an order book for trade assets.
I think the order book that's going to exist in the app layer is probably going to be that to some degree.
While it would probably use secured assets instead of trade assets, but nonetheless, it'll still function and do the thing that's designed to do.
Okay, got it.
So the Arbbot's available to use limit swaps just like retail
traders they'll both use it the same yes yeah i think so that's that's my hope at least yeah um
well because it the only other thing i was just thinking about is you know we because trade assets
i think have fees the swap fees than trading in the pool. And the idea is there to try and stimulate volume.
So I was just kind of wondering how that might shake itself out if we have ARBs and retail
trading together.
I don't know.
I don't know if I have a point there or not.
I'm just rambling.
It should increase the volume in theory.
And the reason why is because your trading efficiency goes up, your efficiency of capital goes up.
So that means you should be able to maintain better pricing, more competitive pricing as a natural result of that.
So on paper, it should increase the volume.
How much, it's hard to tell with these things.
It's hard to guess.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't significant.
And so how would wallets that already have ThorChain integrated,
I assume they'd have to do some kind of update to their wallet
in order to display and handle a limit swap on ThorChain?
Or how would that work?
Well, the nice thing is that the memo is the same between a limit swap and a market swap or
regular swap. The only change is like a single character, which is kind of funny. So, but
other than that, it's basically technically the same. Now, the difference though, is that once
you have a limit swap, you have to be able to track, you know, how much of my trade is executed, right?
Like, you know, 20% or 30% and how much Ether have I gotten from my half of Bitcoin that's traded thus far, blah, blah.
And that's easy to pull that information via the API, by the Streaming Swap API endpoint,
to just pull that information and show you how many trades there have been, how many failures,
there's, you know, attempts to trade but i failed the swap for one reason or another because
it couldn't get the right fee or whatever um and gives you all that kind of information about like
how much how far along you are um and then you have to create another kind of new functionality
in those wallets to do modifications and cancellations so modify my limit order to
increase the amount of ether i'm going to get the other side or decrease it or,
or just cancel the entire thing and just,
you know,
refund me whatever's remaining of the Bitcoin and whatever Ether I've
already gotten.
Just give me both.
Cool.
I've been asking questions for a while.
Talk about Patriot.
Do you want to jump in for a bit?
Is there anything?
Well, you're doing a great job, man.
You're doing a great job.
Actually, because, Chad, before the space started, I went on to another XRP space.
I've been really trying to get involved with them.
And I've been telling them what ThorChain is and what we've built.
They're so excited.
In fact, guys, I have an episode I'm going to be doing.
It's called Dip a Toe Show, specifically geared towards XRPers.
And they invited me, and I'm hoping you can go too, Kenton. That'd be great.
And then also I'm going to pitch them, you know, Regera and stuff.
I'm really trying to get everyone here. So we do have some people in the audience that I recognize that are not part of our community.
Maybe, Chad, if it'd be okay. I know we've been talking about ThorChain for a you know for the uninitiated it sounds good but they don't maybe not just maybe we can just distinctly like what does
storage do precisely and why is it a big deal maybe we'll just reset the space a little bit
and just go from there sir do you want me to that do you want to try it yourself oh go ahead
brother you're the man good oh yeah so so storage isain is a cryptocurrency project where it's solving the problem of how to trade liquidity across blockchains.
That's been a holy grail for a long time.
I know I see Shapeshift intern is on the panel here.
I saw Michael in the audience earlier who was CISO of Shapeshift.
But that problem of trying to trade across blockchain has been an open kind of holy grail problem for a long time and shapeshift was in it when it started i think it was in 2013 it
was attempting to solve this problem um unfortunately the the government didn't like that so
much and so they kind of pulled up the ass of eric voorhees and the rest of the team
and caused all sorts of mayhem in thischief. But it was an open problem.
And a lot of people thought about atomic swaps back in the day.
Atomic swaps were going to be the solution to this problem.
And everybody had tried it, and nobody could get it to actually work
with any kind of liquidity, and it was pretty much impractical to use.
But ThorChain had a different idea of implementing this,
and we did it in a way of just having a separate blockchain,
which we call ThorChchain, of course, that has approximately 100 validators, 110 now or whatever the hell the number is.
And each of these people run a full daemon for Bitcoin, a full Bitcoin core, a full Doge, a full Ether, Ethereum, a full Binance Smart Chain, whatever.
a full Binance Smart Chain, whatever.
And it just observes transactions going in and out of the wallets
that it collectively controls using a multi-party cryptography.
So it's basically, the simple way to describe it is
it's just a way of swapping across blockchains.
Similar to what Uniswap does, but we just do it internationally.
And Uniswap does it more like
within per state within a country and so we're kind of more like the airplanes
and uniswap is more like the the buses or trains
perfect perfect yeah and so guys for those listening now live or the recording of this
you know this is a huge zero to one going from layer one to layer one because beforehand we all you know a lot of uh cross-chain swaps air quotes um were done with
wrapped assets that exist like if you have wbtc on ethereum right which is not the real thing that is
um basically controlled by a third party which is inherently insecure i know you've said that
many times chad i i remember that line saying it is inherently insecure it I know you've said that many times, Chad. I remember that line. It is inherently insecure. It is not the way to go. And so we've made the right call here by joining just to the layer one itself, real layer one to layer one, no middleman, no KYC, permissionless, and as decentralized as we possibly can make it. And so this is a huge, huge power up for the community.
We were the first ones to accomplish this.
Now we have many other protocols,
like my protocol, our lovely sister chain.
But this is huge, guys.
And now, you know, this is a very complicated,
like Chad was talking earlier in the space,
door chains, what, like hundreds of thousands of lines of code?
What's so easy to describe simply is going from layer
to one. That's an easy sentence, but to actually make that happen consistently, that works,
that's verifiable, that doesn't rug anybody, doesn't make any mistakes, is an enormously
complex issue. You guys heard what Chad said. He was going from what, seven in the morning to
morning to midnight for one and a half years straight, just like a lunatic coding and coding
midnight for one and a half years straight, just like a lunatic coding and coding and coding.
and coding. So this vision was brought by the sweat, blood and tears of many wonderful individuals.
And many people, I remember you saying this, Chad, another someone's, you had asked somebody like,
well, why don't you try and swap to native Bitcoin? And I forget, but you something to
the fact like, well, that would be really hard right right i think you know
what i'm talking about yes and it's like no like this is what needs to happen so you know this
community i'm not a i'm not a developer guys uh i'm i'm merely standing on the shoulder of giants
be first and foremost but um really this took a lot of work to do and it's here and it's really
working great and as you heard and if you haven't heard,
you need to listen to the recording of this space.
We are making it optimized and better than ever.
And I think, as Kenton was talking about,
the growth phase of ThorChain is really just beginning.
And what I said earlier, guys, bond your ruin.
I'm going to get into it.
We have Slam Bammer up here.
Slam Bammer is a node operator.
Okay.
And he needs bond providers.
Okay. What's the APY is right now, Kenton?
Maybe you can tell me. I should have checked. I forgot.
I'll go ahead, SlamBammer.
It's 10% less than I looked.
Yeah.
Roughly about 10%. It usually spikes just after a churn, but settles usually between 8 and 12.
Yeah. usually spikes just after a churn but settles usually between 8 and 12. yeah yeah I I need though uh Patriot is that like you were talking about how the the code is like hundreds of
thousands of land which is true it's probably 200 or 300 thousand or something like this I don't
know the exact number but the irony there is that the actual swap logic of the code is probably
closer to like 2 000 and so it's a very small percentage of the code is actually the actual swap logic of the code is probably closer to like 2000. And so it's a very small percentage of the code
is actually the business logic
of like doing a swap or a trade.
All that code is mostly about nodes and bonds
and vaults and gas and threshold signatures.
It's so funny that what we do here is swaps,
but that's like, not even like one, it's probably not even 1% of the code or close to 1% of the code,
which is kind of like communically funny. Yeah, that is crazy. And, and, you know,
one thing that I'm so happy is I remember when I started modding back in 2021 for the sorging
community and, you know, I'd have a direct line to devs all the edge cases
we'd run into all the bugs you know i'd be forwarding information for people like hey
this happened i don't know what the heck's going on like i don't have those days anymore i don't
have those days anymore it's just it's running like butter right now now of course knock on wood
we're going to be adding rapid swaps and all these different things. And, you know, always keep your eye out. But just the main core part of ThorTain, it's running so good.
And that to me has been the most bullish indicator is that I actually don't have to talk to the devs anymore.
I don't have that problem, which is just a testament to not only the devs, but the community figuring out bugs.
I mean, we had some real serious bugs that just someone randomly on Telegram was like, hey, what the heck is going on? I'm like, oh, that looks interesting.
So, you know, it really took all of us to do this. So shout out to everyone.
We have a couple of new speakers here. Oh, go ahead, Kenton. I'll let you go.
I was going to say the same thing. We got some speakers.
We'll give them some time.
Rhino. Rhino.
Rhino is the first one to request.
We'll let him go first.
Well, good morning or afternoon, wherever you guys are.
Look, this is all great.
I kind of have a question that will address a certain elephant in the room.
My question is this.
What would Chad say to, like, all the LPs whops who got mega you know screwed over by the whole
thorfy thing i know this is kind of in the past but i think we should learn from the past right
and like a lot of people have hard time like trusting the whole vision of like you know like
oh we're gonna do this and buying pressure this and minting that but what happened was that we we got pretty hurt on that
what's something to give us some sort of like peace of mind like okay we're gonna be
more careful like when you guys ask questions and it all doesn't add up quite for us we'll
slow down and explain it rather than just like you know bulldoze over and do what we want to do
explain it rather than just like, you know, bulldoze over and do what we want to do.
Because we have a lot at stake, right?
And we want to make sure that our investments are somewhat protected, which has been a rocky,
rocky thing in the past, right?
So my question is, why should we feel bullish on, you know, this kind of like, okay, Chad's
back.
Let's go back to basics i mean we just had a
massive cleanup happening while chad was away um like what what kind of words of
um confidence would you give us on that um chad do you mind if i maybe just jump in a little bit first here? So look, I completely understand your feelings.
So personally, I've been a participant with ThorChain since 2021, mainly just in liquidity providing.
I did have some in savers as well.
So in terms of being affected by ThorFi I completely understand I've had liquidity positions
open since 2021 and so I know exactly what you're talking about um I I've had I've been a long time
believer in the overall vision of Thorchain and so I've I've stuck it out since then. I too have had positions that were sort of heavily in the red. And when ThorFi,
when the unwind is taking place, you know, it was an incredibly tense time. And I was one of the
people that were really fighting hard to make sure that liquidity providers were given at least some path forward. I also decided that if I was going to,
I was either going to pull out
and cut my losses with ThoughtChain
or I was going to double down.
And if so, I needed to get more involved.
And that's why I became a node operator
at the start of this year.
And so I guess what I'd say to you is this.
I don't know of any other unwind that went as smoothly as it did.
Now, what ThorChain recovered from was, I mean, it's a miracle that it didn't implode the protocol.
And I think the fact that we did and we've come out as as strongly as we can as
strongly as we did is is truly amazing but you do you do understand why i'm kind of hesitant to put
the same driver back in the front seat that got us in that ditch right yes absolutely you're talking
about me all right well i don't know if he's talking i think well i think it's actually good
that you interrupted slam didn't interrupt, interjected,
because you were affected.
Let me talk specifically to you,
because I'm someone who has got absolutely annihilated
because I was primarily a liquidity provider.
Okay.
The beginning, so the part,
let's go back to 2021 and ChaosNet.
I'm watching Chad Bareford's videos online.
It's before ChaosNet.
I haven't met Chad Bareford.
I'm starting to get understanding in the community. And I'm realizing deep down the
importance of ThorChain and what it represents and how crucial it is for a world to be free,
economically liberated, right? As an LP, I have suffered tremendously, tremendously. If anyone
knows me, knows that I was primarily an LP because I firmly believe that in
order for ThorChain to be successful LPing, or at least has to work in some degree, right?
So yes, I have been hurt, I think far worse than any saver, any lending user. But like SlamBammer,
what ThorChain represents is so important. And I hope you remember what I said before, if you were here, that you have to understand that the zero to one that we built cannot be done without mistakes.
It can't be done without adventurism of some kind, without forging the path forward.
Because this is a very hard problem. How do you, with blockchain technology, design a system that not only is better than
TradFi, but actually can't be corrupted and co-opted by a third party, like a nation state?
And that's what ThorChain is. And so in the beginning, it's all theory. This has never
existed before. We have to learn how to do everything. And so we had some blowout successes
like streaming swaps,
and maybe we definitely had some blunders as well. But this is the point I would say to you,
is that pain that we suffered before was our unnecessary initiation to be at where we're at
right now. And to Slam Bammers' point, what we accomplished was absolutely incredible. And I hope
anyone listening to this has no doubt about the strength and resiliency of this fucking community and how serious we are about our goal,
because words are bullshit. Walking is what matters. And we put up and we, and you know,
we put up, we mean what we say, we say what we mean, what we mean, and we mean what we say.
And so, yeah, I've really hurt right now, but not for a second, my friend, that I am swayed from the path.
And I am just like Slamdammer, double down.
But I totally understand what you are.
And I think if there's anything to come out of this that would make you bullish is that now for the first time in my entire time with ThorChain,
I have never seen this community more in agreement, more in alignment with the vision, ultimate purpose and end state of Thorchain.
We finally have figured it out and we couldn't have figured it out with the pain that we suffered.
Go ahead, brother. You got your hand up.
Yeah, look, I'm admitting this may be feared out speaking, but look, I was I have been an LP since 2021 as well.
2021 as well. And I have been massively in the red. I still am. And look, I understand building,
And I have been massively in the red. I still am.
you know, sometimes you got to do this and that and you learn from your mistakes. My big issue
is like when we were talking about sins and we were talking about the Thorify and I was asking
questions of like, OK, how does that make sense? Because it was like, oh, this means that and this
puts buying pressure. I'm like, look, this sounds nice theoretically, but can you explain in simple terms?
And oftentimes, if you can't explain in simple terms,
it kind of, the math doesn't add up.
I just want to make sure that we stay kind of like honest.
And if someone asks questions and it's like,
oh, it doesn't make sense to you,
well, make it make sense.
Otherwise, maybe we're missing something.
So I just want to make sure that we'll learn from this. and i really don't want to leave my positions in the red i actually believe
in thor chain's purpose and goal and mission but i want to make sure that we don't trade quantity
for quality i think it's better to uh to ship less but higher quality and make sure it's like
double triple quadruple checked. And if there's
questions, maybe let's answer the questions rather than just like move forward regardless of that.
So I just want to make sure we're careful. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you, sir. I agree. And to
make your point even more is, yeah, we absolutely need to, you know, we've had our slice of humble pie,
right? I mean, in 2021, we had chaos net and everyone knows we got exploited. That was the
point, but you know, it probably was a little worse than we could have let it. But I mean,
this is just a tale as old as time. This is the human condition. We're all fallible creatures up
here. I am fallible for sure um and yeah i agree and i
think this is the point i'm trying to make to you is we've we've done that we've tread the path we've
walked we've walked through the fire and now we finally for the first time have a sense of what
really works and um and as an lp like flambammer advocated for you i also advocate for lp it's not
just because i was l LP self-interested,
because I knew how important it was
to maintain the community.
And that's why we paused, you know, LP
additions to the pools that were affected by synth
leverage, trying to get the rune price up.
And with Ruggiero, with the optimizations
that Chad is bringing, and
many of the wonderful things are going, new integrations,
new chains, I think the future is
very bright. It's just you've got to hang in for a little bit longer that's what i would think so um go ahead kenton
i just want to give uh chad a chance to speak and address concerns
uh well so there's lots of topics that were kind of discussed over the last bit but
i'll start with the lp thing um so my opinion on the
lp thing and this is just my opinion other people can have difference of opinions is that we should
just zero the sense units so since since and saver people are getting their money back through the
tcy you know process um for lps i'd like to say it's just zero the sense units and so though so
you just get all you just get all your liquidity back.
Most of the reason why you're in the red
if you're an LP is because of the kind of leveraged Rune
with synth units, blah, blah, blah.
So when Rune price really died
and Bitcoin price hit basically all-time highs,
for example, that obviously exaggerated that
with the synth units.
And so if you were to zero the synth units,
everybody would instantly get back some percentage.
I don't know if it's like 100% or 20%.
I never did the math to figure out
how much that would reimburse the LP people.
That's like the thing that I would recommend.
Now, not everybody agrees with me on this.
There are some people who are LPs
who want to keep the synth units.
They want to have that kind of leverage because they see it leveraged up as well as leveraged down and sort of
room would perform well over the next you know six months or a year whatever then it would do better
for them in some ways but that's i think that's what they argue but can i ask you to clarify
something when you say zero the synth units you mean mean remove it from POL, so the protocol doesn't own that liquidity, and instead transfer it to LPs? Is that what you mean?
It maintains, you know, one Bitcoin of value at all times.
So if the Rune price is going down, then the amount of LP units that the synth holders basically hold naturally increases.
So you're taking the value away from the LPs, you're giving it to the synth holders.
And when Rune price is going up relative to the asset, it goes the other direction.
But if you just zero the LP, the synth units, or the LP units of the synth holders, if you want to phrase it that way, then 100% of the pool value goes to all the LPs. And that's a good way to reimburse them in a single block, theoretically.
I know there's debates with that though
and I want to continue to have those conversations with JP
and ALUX over at Maya
and figure out the best way forward
in that regard and I think what makes me
more bullish on
the LP side of things is really
the app layer because the app layer
is going to be adding
perps and Bitcoin
backstable coins and order books
and whatever else they got cooking there.
And half of those fees that it's going to be collecting is going to the LPs and the nodes.
So I think there's going to be a significant uptick in revenue generated by the protocol,
largely due to app layer and increased trade volume on new features like rapid swaps.
Memo list transactions is another thing I want to see happen in the next six months or so
to help kind of drain even more volume and traffic and fees.
The more fees we can generate, obviously, the better it is for the LPs, right?
And give them much more higher yield of real yield.
Hey, I'm going to let you go slam BAMR in just a second,
but Arno, I sent you, I slung you a follow.
Can you please give me a follow back?
I'd like to keep tabs with you, okay?
Because I really liked,
I'm glad you actually came up and said that
because the one thing with ThorChain excels very well,
we don't censor nothing.
Everything is open for debate
and that's the way this ethos started
and that's the way this ethos started and that's the way this ethos
uh is definitely going to keep going in the future as long as i have some influence about
it so yeah please send me a follow i'll keep i'll stay keep tabs with you because i'm really
glad you did that go ahead slam bammer yeah just two very quick things i think one also to me is
i would i would say two things that keep me bullish as well so even in the even in the
whole unwind people stuck around and and you know trying to fix it chad's a good example i mean he's
back he's building with the project he could 100 just have said you know i'm not dealing with the
smoke jp as well um man i love that guy he's really smart sometimes he comes out with some quite inflammatory
statements that cause a bit of consternation but overall i'm glad that we have them they're they're
really uh good visionary people to have as part of the protocol and i think one other thing that
i would say is look i'm i'm here i'm a node operator i i'm i'm fighting again as as you are
for um the continuation and the recovery of the protocol so yeah if you ever have any concerns I'm fighting again as you are for
the continuation and the recovery of the protocol
so yeah if you ever have any concerns
you can always reach out to me
I'll help you have those discussions
no problem
Rhino I'd like to
add my two cents as well
I absolutely 100%
appreciate and sympathize with your pain.
But there's also rune holders that have been hammered too, right?
Bond providers, node operators, like everyone in the ecosystem has suffered.
And, you know, I'm not seeing the passive rune holder or bond providers ask for bailouts.
Everyone accepts the risk, right?
This is crypto.
I can hear somebody's got their, if someone can meet their speaker, there's some background noise.
And so, you know, at some point, you know, LPs kind of have to accept that this is part of the risk they took, right?
And, you know, just like me as a bond
provider, known operator, you know, I accept this as a risk I took, right? You know, we're all down.
So it's not like anyone in particular is being, has been, had it, you know, kind of any worse than
anyone else. And so the way out of this is growth, is revenue, right? Getting the fees up and getting the room price up.
And to do that, we need to continue to improve ThorChain, make it more usable, get more users,
all that good stuff.
And you asked about, you made a comment, why we have the driver who got us into the ditch,
why put him back in the driver's seat um i don't know if you've been a part of any other blow-ups and businesses in the past
i have and you know when things start going south management directors you know the figureheads
everyone just disappears right they just go a wall and you're like you left you know you left
holding the bag and like what's going on right and it's just poof it's like the thing never existed in the first place with door chain um i
mean chad was gone for a year already he didn't he could have just stayed hidden and out you know
out of you know just done his own thing right he came he came back um back in the spotlight in the
limelight right you know You're not doing that if
you're like, you're doing it because you want to help make things better, right? And the same with
JP, like Slamdimer mentioned, we all kind of have a love-hate relationship with him. But I mean,
the guy gets things done, and he's an absolute net benefit to Thorchain, you know, despite some of the things some of us might not like.
Overall, he brings a ton to Thorchain.
And so, like, I want these guys back.
I want them to stay.
They're still here.
They're still fighting.
They're still working.
And, you know, you can maybe make an argument that maybe, you know, Eagle, you know, led things down the wrong way.
Well, Eagle is also what helps
us help us get out of it, right? Because I don't think anyone building in ThorChain wants to be
remembered as, you know, blowing it up, right? Now, we all everyone wants to be remembered as
it's succeeding, and, you know, making a difference in the world. So, you know, the fact that everybody
is still here working and trying
and delivering and in my mind is incredibly bullish, right? No one's run away or hiding.
So hopefully that helps answer your question. And also like, I understand like the visionaries,
like we wouldn't be here. We would not be here. All of us in this room listening together on this
space, if it was not for Chad, JP, Heimdall, and the original visionaries of ThorChain.
If it was not for JP, who immediately understood the power of the app layer, which is something that we wanted to build.
I mean, ThorChain does swaps, but really our goal is to free the world economically.
We're dead serious about that.
Everyone's seen the pain, misery, objection, poverty, disease, filth, war across the world economically. We're dead serious about that. Everyone's seen the pain,
misery, objection, poverty, disease, filth, war across the world. That needs to end.
And that's what we're here to do. And I really think that we're doing that. And it's great.
And if anyone here, to me, I take some of the blame too, because I was a participating individual
when we had certain things like that. I looked at at the code, I thought about it and I didn't see, I didn't foresee a lot of things that happened.
So, you know, I share blame as well.
I mean, we're all sovereign individuals here trying to figure this out.
But I'm like I said, I'm so glad you you came up here and you stated that because I think things like that need to be said.
They need to be heard by everyone here. And it's a good moment where we can all move on.
I want to make sure we get to the other speakers here.
I think Boone was next, Kenton.
Is that right, if I'm not mistaken?
That's right.
But should we give Rhino one last, should we give him the final word?
Sure, yeah.
Make sure you're okay, Rhino.
That's good.
Yeah, I think that's great.
I appreciate that.
Guys, thank you for hearing me out.
I just wanted to voice concerns.
And ultimately, yeah, sometimes you have to go back
and fix things and i'm okay with it as long as we learn from what we did and we don't let
assumptions or theories get in the way of like healthy tangible and sometimes it's all about
simplicity like i'm really glad that all the thorfy stuff is being or the d5 stuff is being
left for an app layer because you know the the engine protect the engine let it work let it do
its thing and you know like take the risk away from that so thank you for hearing me out i
appreciate the uh the fact that you guys didn't like jump on me or anything like that i understand
the vision uh i won't take any more
of your time um so yeah thanks well thank you man thank you for being mature about it right you
weren't you know you weren't coming in hot angry yelling accusing you know you're you're being
mature about it so thank you yeah thanks brother, go ahead, sir. I first requested this feed just to be pedantic really.
Earlier, we had said that ThorChain was the first one to remove emissions.
And I just feel it's very important to note that Maya launched without emissions.
So they at least had us beat.
So, yeah, just I feel I kind, in my head put them under our wing.
So, but yeah, they, they did it first.
Um, but then just this recent conversation, I just want to echo what you and Kenton were
just saying, um, where, and so Chad, I think Chad has only had good intentions and like
we all make mistakes, but yeah, I think the fact that he's back here and trying to make
things better just speaks, you know, volumes to his character.
And, you know, the only way you can make progress is to try things out.
And we wouldn't have streaming swaps, which has, like, been the game changer, if not for Chad.
And so, yeah, you win some, you lose some.
But the only thing you can do is move forward.
And I think, yeah, I'm so for uh what we're calling limit swaps
and rapid swaps i think that's going to be as big as streaming swaps were i think this is going to
be even bigger um i think we're gonna seriously be able to compete with not just other dexes but
actual like coin coinbase and binance on swap rates at this point, um, and do it just better than them. So yeah, I'm just super bullish on everything.
Shout out to Maya protocol. Hell yeah. We love those guys. Go ahead, Kenton.
Yeah. I feel retarded for not knowing that. Thanks, dude.
Yeah. Well, I think, well, one thing I guess you could say is that Thor chain,
you know, my protocol, they're OGs for that, but ThorChain being able to transition from a emission system to a revenue system, I think that's probably an interesting metric too. So yeah, that's actually a good point, Boon. So thank you. Was it Morgan? Was Morgan next, Kenton?
I think so.
Go ahead, Morgan.
Hello, sir. Can you hear me? Yeah go ahead buddy. Okay sir my question is when can I find the latest update and information about your project? That's it. see you you want i didn't care that what do you want information update what did you say
oh yeah yes uh are you just wanting general information about what thor chain does i'm sorry
i'm there's a little bit of language right here he wants he wants information where can he get an
update on the road map of thor chain yeah let me I'm going to follow you right now, Morgan.
I don't want to take too much speaker time on that.
I'm going to give you everything you need in your comments,
and then you can look at all the specifications, documents,
everything like that.
So I'm going to get your profile right now.
I'm going to close the mic.
I'll get you everything you need right now, buddy.
And then SRD, I think, was next, but he's...
He dropped. Can you speak? He he dropped okay um was that it yeah
that's it i think so um well um before before i go to morgan slam bammer um you know we were gonna
we're doing a space um to get you more bonfires we just kind of combined it with this one so i
think it's better um you know guys uh, guys, and shout out to Chad,
because Kenton and I and some others,
we did the Bond the Rune campaign.
I think it's been a very successful campaign.
Obviously, I think we're just doing a churn.
I haven't looked yet.
I don't know if we're going to go back to 120,
but we're like right there.
We're at the cap.
So absolutely blowout success, guys.
I'm so proud of everyone, and I love you all.
Great job.
Slam Banner banner i'll just
give you the floor a little bit um you know you are a node a node operator a new node operator
as you said you stepped up to add to the decentralization decentralization of the
network and like you know shouting out ruined hard he's been super busy and uh training new
unique node operators that's something that thorching definitely uh excuse me i'm slumbling
my words i desperately needs why don't you go ahead and just give us a general um introduction new, unique node operators, that's something that Thorchain definitely needs.
Why don't you go ahead and just give us a general introduction of yourself, your ethos,
and go ahead, buddy. All yours.
Yeah, cheers.
Yeah, so as I said, I became a node operator earlier this year to help carry the network
through the Thor Fire & Wine.
It's been an experience learning.
I will say that I think another thing that really makes me bullish about this project
is just how committed people are in the space.
So you mentioned Runtard.
That guy is incredibly idealistic and a great person to have in the community.
He's effectively helping his competition, you know, skill up and learn about the protocol and become load operators in order to strengthen the network.
So I was one of those that took him up on his offer.
And essentially, why it's important is,
the way I think of it is decentralization
is like a safety net, right?
When you don't need it,
it's always sort of an interesting idea.
And you just sometimes think,
oh, you know, why is it there?
Why do we maintain it?
But when the pressure's on
and when things are falling down,
you're definitely glad it's there.
And so I've got nodes.
I've been able to churn in a few times at the moment.
I'm just at the lower end of the bond,
so I've been churned out a few times.
So I'm looking for a few more bond providers.
Essentially, I'm very active in the community.
I'm here to also help new node operators.
I've been active on the Discord as well
and chatting to a few of the people
that are thinking about setting up nodes.
And yeah, I'm one of the people
that's really active in the space
and pushing for the protocol to continue to get better
and also to expand into new spaces
and engage with more people, more chains.
Because I think we have a really strong community
within ThorChain, but I think we need to start
to try and reach beyond it and get more
of the crypto space involved.
So yeah, that's a bit about me.
I'm more than happy to help anyone learn about bonding,
learn more about the protocol.
So yeah, if you have any questions
or are interested in bonding, just let me know.
Slam Bamber, are you on the RuneBond.com site by chance? Are you listed on there? Yeah, if you have any questions or interested in bonding, just let me know. Slambamber, are you on the RuneBond.com site by chance?
Are you listed on there?
Yeah, I am.
So the few things is my note is listed there.
When you become inactive, you kind of get put to the bottom of the list.
So, yeah, you'll have to kind of look there.
But I've reduced my fees.
I really want to remain churned in.
As I said, I've got strong opinions, really want to help the network grow.
So my main focus is to remain churned in and then go from there.
Yeah, and a little partial shout out to Kenshin as well, because during the RuneBond campaign, because as you guys know, he is a node operator himself.
And so he is competitive and he wants bond providers just like any node operator but during our growth phase when we were really kicking off the campaign kenton went above and beyond to give other node operators
bond providers to help decentralize the network so this is what i mean like what slam bammer is
talking about the community like there is a form of altruism here that's
really unusual when it comes to a competitive marketplace like runetard as slam bammer alluded
to he's technically training his competition right um and so guys this is truly wonderful
so slam bammer i can personally about voucher him he's an absolutely wonderful wonderful community
member and now a node operator if you guys have not bonded your rune,
please consider Slam Bammer as an option to bond to.
He's wonderful.
Or if you are currently bonding your rune with somebody,
don't necessarily take rune away from that node operator,
but you can also bond more rune
to another node operator with the same address.
I don't know if people know that.
So if you've got a little bond
or low rune sticking in your address,
consider slinging to Slam Bammer.
Go ahead, Kenton.
Oh, I didn't mean to cut you off.
You want to keep going.
Oh, no, that was about it for me.
Okay.
Yeah, I just kind of wanted to bring this back to Chad.
So what kicked off the whole Banger
raise the bond campaign was increasing the security
to make room for AppLayer.
And then since then, we've had this,
there's been an ongoing debate about, you know,
changing the hard cap on ThorChain, which we did.
We moved it from the bottom two-thirds of the nodes
to bottom two-thirds of the rune bonded
to all the rune bonded, which is what the cap was originally
when ThorChain launched in 21.
And now there's still a debate about,
do we extend the cap beyond that, scale app layer,
all that kind of stuff.
So I'm curious,
Chad, what your thoughts are
on raising
the cap, the hard cap on ThorChain.
You know, how high do you think we can
go? Can it be done safely? Do you think
we hold it where it is?
Are you unsure? You know, what's your
stance there?
here's what I'm thinking, is that is that like it all really depends upon the success of
app layer to me like how much liquidity is it pulling in how many secured assets is it's
basically fostering on the protocol because if you have a situation where you have like a say
you do like a loan system on the app layer, right? Like a regular, you know, like a regular loan that we've seen a thousand times in DeFi
world.
And, you know, you put on your Bitcoin as your collateral and you get, you know, USDC
as your debt or whatever, you know, on the Apple Air.
And, you know, you need to pay off your loan, but you can't do it because we're at the cap
because you need to get the secure assets, the USDC secured assets to pay off your loan, but you can't do it because we're at the cap because you need to get the secured assets, the USDC secured assets to pay off your loan to get back your collateral.
So that becomes a really kind of disastrous situation if you can't repay your loan when you want to, right, because we're at some sort of cap.
So it becomes like a really kind of a concern that if you don't, if the cap is still active, it becomes like a looming threat on the various DeFi apps on the app layer, which could hinder its success in some ways or form, right?
kind of purist economic security position that we had in the beginning I think it it makes sense to
some some degree but it has some real like scalability issues I would say same thing with
like CBD like collateral deposition likes stable coins they have they're they're cool they're nice
they're great in some ways but they have some real scalability.
That's why 99% of stablecoins are Tether and USDC and not the other stablecoins that are backed by some collateral.
So there's just some scalability concerns about the economic model that we originally kind of wanted to go through, and we needed to try it out to see in reality how that would actually manifest.
So I think I'm leaning more towards a way of just doing what every other protocol does, which is decoupling security and the assets your security i think that's going to be to get fortune to be
the most successful possible i think that's the that's the route to go but because it's so expensive
to run a single node let alone there's 120 nodes so you have to buy up uh how many how many would
that be that would be uh what 75 nodes you know buy up 75 nodes to to do some any kind of real damage
which would be how many millions of dollars would that be a hundred something maybe even 200 depending
on where the price is now um so it's it's it's gotten to that point where where like like the
amount of capital required to actually launch an attack is astronomically high.
And that's kind of similar, not to the same degree, to be fair,
but if you want to attack Bitcoin, you could have done it six years ago or seven years ago.
You just can't do it today.
The security is too high to make it viable for somebody to actually really attack it anymore.
Not to say that's not like ThorChain.
Like technically somebody has money, they could actually go ahead and do it.
But the amount of capital required is so fucking astronomical.
There's just not that many people that are capable even doing to begin with.
And I think what's more valuable to the protocol than security on paper is actual fees, actual volume, actual usage,
actual value proposition.
That's much more value to the success of the protocol in the long term.
I agree with you that you're not going to get 75 million rune
on the open market to go into a node, so that's not going to happen.
But what about the 75 nodes that already exist
and breaking bad and deciding to collude and and and steal from that work um yeah i mean that that
is a theoretical thing i think i think for anybody that is in those 75 nodes like i think anybody
who's a node operator operates today whether it be you, you know, SlamBAM or Kenton or, you know, whatever, they're highly aligned to the project. They want the success of
the project. The success of the project in some ways is more valuable than the actual dollars
that's behind it. You know, the importance of what it is we're doing here is so significant
that I think for most of us, including myself, you know, it's just not worth it. But could they do it?
Yeah, sure.
It's a possibility.
I'm not going to rule it out or anything.
It would be hard to do.
It would be very hard to do.
Because say Kenton wanted to become malicious.
So Kenton talks to his friend Slamban and says, hey, Slamban, I think I want to start putting a coalition together.
We're going to rug Thor chain.
And then what does Slamban do?
Well, maybe Slamban joins Kenton, or maybe Slamban is actually a concern.
I mean, Slamban messages me, you know, or JP and says,
I had a conversation with Kenton where Kenton was trying to undermine the protocol or whatever.
So there's risk to that as well.
It's not as easy as just getting together,
especially when you don't even know where half the nodes are or who runs half these nodes.
The communication is difficult, and it's been designed that way specifically to make it that you cannot communicate with node operators directly unless you dock yourself publicly, which I think at least half the nodes are not doced publicly.
I think at least half the notes are not doxed publicly.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, if I'm running around trying to talk to people, I out myself, which then if I go to an honest guy, he then is, oh, Kenton's doing this.
Don't trust him.
And then my plan is unraveled.
And, yeah, I see what you're saying.
Yeah, it's not easy.
I mean, is it possible?
Sure, it's possible.
I'm not denying that.
It would be a very difficult task.
And you'd have to get everybody who's doxed themselves in running a Nose are highly aligned to the project.
I sincerely doubt anybody who's doxed themselves publicly is probably pretty aligned to the project.
It wouldn't join some malicious group of people to attack the network in one form or another.
I think it's extremely unlikely to be.
I think as the node operator set grows, it'll be more and more doxed operators.
I think it's hard to raise capital for a node being anon.
So if the, I'm not saying all nodes should be docs, as I'm trying to say, but if we have, you know, a good third or half that are docs, that adds a real element of security as well.
I think it's basically impossible.
You wouldn't be able to trust that person.
You'd have to give them your private keys.
You'd have to, like, and how do you even communicate with somebody who is in docs?
Like, I don't even talk to this node operator for this particular node.
I have no idea who the hell they are.
Oh, yeah, fair point.
Yeah, I'm thinking the docs part being more not your ability to communicate, but just you get caught. Like, you know, you'd go to jail.
Yeah. You'd have to dox yourself in order to do this attack in some ways. You can't do it in a non-doc mentality. Because you're not going to – even if, like, Kenton had the intention of, like, rugging the network, he's not going to trust some, you know, alias name that he has no communication or knowledge of, that you're going to operate
together and steal the money and he's not going to steal the money from you and work
against Tenton's best interests even though he wants to rug the whole network or whatever.
It's a lot more difficult than it sounds at face value.
That's why I'm more leaning towards that way because what's really more valuable to us
is just getting more fees, getting more value.
Getting a perps DEX would be huge, right?
It adds a lot more liquidity, a lot more trade volume to the protocol.
And that's much more valuable.
And by having limits on this stuff, like the security limits like we've had in the past,
creates a shroud of kind of a cloud, a dark cloud above the app layer in some sense.
Because it's just kind of threatening like, well, there's a scenario that if things go a certain way
and bear market comes and then this happens and then all your shits can fall apart
because you can't interact with it anymore.
And that would just be creating a cliff to walk over,
in a sense. Yeah, I think. Sorry, go ahead, Patriot.
Oh, yeah, no worries, brother. I think that's right. And I think maybe the really conservative
security posture that we had is actually probably essential for the early adoption of a protocol,
like you mentioned, Chad, with Bitcoin. Now it can't be captured, and it could have been back then. So I think maybe once you reach a certain growth threshold,
the super important security posture that we have actually, as you said, becomes an impediment
in some way. And so, yeah, I'm actually warming up. If there's any regerence listening to this,
make sure you convey to that side of the community we're all one community now but make sure you convey that you know we are actively softening on this on this
topic and um you know we're gonna probably let you guys grow to achieve your your full potential so
uh you heard it here okay but actually chad i actually had a question um let me have a hypothetical
here let's say patriot sounds becomes a node operator and i go to slam bammer and i'm like
hey slam bammer let's you know hey let's link up let's steal some fucking funds here and then
slam bammer goes to kenton and says dude this guy you've been hanging out with kind of a fucker i
just hope you know that um i'm curious okay and now that everyone knows i'm a bad node operator
right have we actually tested the code and used the code before in history of actually kicking
out a node operator does Does that work okay?
Are we sure that that code works?
So there is a function called ban where nodes can vote to kick out a specific operator or node.
Have we ever used it?
I don't think we've...
There was a couple times we got close in Signal chain chaos net a long long long long time ago
and we have not had any problems since then that would require even considering this notion
the code is there uh it is unit tested um do i feel 100 confident that it would work perfectly
today no i'm not 100 confident i'd be i feel confident that if somebody were to do that we
could you know it would work um but i'm not 100 confident that it does were to do that, it would work.
But I'm not 100% confident that it does,
but it adds more like regression tests.
Like regression tests didn't exist when you implemented that feature initially at that time.
So there's like new testing frameworks that are more advanced today
that we didn't have back then to be able to write more advanced testing.
So we could backfill that, no problem.
But to my knowledge, it would still work.
Most likely it would.
I'd be surprised if it didn't, but it's a possibility that it doesn't.
Yeah, because how my brain works,
I just try and think of various things of why ThorChain may not work.
Not work, but stuff for like have like this quirky issue.
I'm wondering if that's worth our time,
if a node operator would recommend getting banned,
like would volunteer. Maybe we can give them a little side money for the experiment. I just wonder if that was something that would be worthy to try, just to do it, have a proven concept.
Maybe. I would want to do it just within the code first, make sure that the unit tests are
within the code first, make sure that the unit tests are kind of, you know, are exhaustive
in this testing. And I would probably want to add some banning regression tests in the
code as well. Like give me confidence within the code by itself first, before we start
asking community members that volunteer to get axed and remove forcibly removed from
the protocol. But yeah, we can do that first in the code first to verify it there.
And then we can try it.
We don't need to do it in mainnet.
We can just do it in stage net.
We can actually kick out, ban one of the nodes.
Like Nine Realms runs the stage net network for the most part.
And we can ban one of the nodes that way.
There you go.
Slam Banner, I thought I saw your mic open.
Were you wanting to add something to this?
No, no, we've moved on.
Perfect.
I'll add quick.
I'm softening to the idea of removing the hard cap, too.
It's basically if, you know, if Dark Chain can't grow,
we have all the security doing nothing.
Like, what's the point?
And it's not like we'd be hiding anything right you know it'd be you know this is store chain security posture right it's all open source it's all public
it's all you know if you don't don't agree with it don't feel safe on it don't use it uh if you
do feel safe with it you do agree with it then then use it great you know it's like buyer beware
right and if if the market is happy with it, then the market will use it.
You know, saying that, you know, I don't, you know, it's not like you want to, we want to build a product where you have to read the fine print to know if it's safe or not.
I don't think anybody here wants to do that either.
But, you know, overall, it's, you know, if the market is happy to use it, then great.
And that's why argue with the market.
Yeah.
Yeah, we have a litmus test, right?
Because we had really serious points in our past where node operators could have left out of self-preservation, right?
And they stayed.
So I think to your point, Kenton, I think we just have a really solid group of node operators.
But I'm wondering at what point do we decide to go above 120?
If now is the time we start thinking about that or if we want to hang around and do bond wars for a little longer, that's something that goes in my mind.
I'm not sure the answer on that.
I'm not sure the answer on that.
I mean, for me, I would stick around 120 for a while.
Just because adding more security beyond the place we are now
doesn't really benefit that much, you know what I mean?
And having bond wars is probably more valuable to the protocol
at this moment in time.
That might change in the future.
But one thing I'd like, kind of touching on what you just said a moment ago,
like what's interesting now with the protocol about the community more accurately is we're much
more aligned with each other. Like Thorify was a very, you know, contentious thing. You know,
it was a big divider in our community. We've done many votes over the last couple of years,
either forward or against it. And then, you know, it's always a pretty good uh split between those two
points um and something with like by bit you know about where do we stand on on censorship resistance
like is that important to our to our culture and and by bit kind of forced that question and it
was a more weight than we've ever seen it in before and you know for some knows they just
couldn't
get on board with that and they and they kind of exited which is fine that's their choice
um but now the nodes that have remained are kind of more like homogeneous in a sense everybody's
much more aligned uh our our kind of future view on the protocol and our roadmap is much more
aligned there's not much dissension as much as there was before. There's more unity today than there was before,
which is really interesting.
So that kind of makes things a lot easier
in a lot of ways.
For the most part, we all largely agree with each other
on most issues. More so now
than a year ago or two years ago.
Slam Bam, were you going to say something?
Yeah, I think in terms of
I'm of the
opinion that we should think about increasing the node cap at some point in the near future i think
one of the main concerns around it is um it's it's more of a technical limitation so uh there
is a priority at the moment to try reduce block times and increasing the number of nodes adds a bit more complexity
for getting that done.
So I know it is on the horizon.
I know it's coming.
Yeah, it is.
I think it's not even a hard change to change.
Like the 120, I think, is the number.
It's just the default number that comes in Cosmos, I believe.
So the code change really should be a relatively simple one
to increase that from 120 to, I don't know, whatever, 200 or whatever.
But I'm not sure how much demand there is beyond the 120 number.
If we lifted it now, would I go to 150 or just 121?
Can we just demand for 124 nodes right now.
We're at 118.
Nine looking to churn in.
If we assume there's always three, that'll be out.
So 118 is at 6.
It's 124.
Okay, interesting.
Something I wanted to ask you too,
Chad, if we went to
125 or 130,
would that drastically slow down ThorChain?
Or is it, no, it could probably go just a little bit, just slightly increase.
I'm not far deep down the rabbit hole of the Cosmos Tendermint underlining consensus mechanism.
But most likely it is an exponential
thing then the number of communications required between uh nodes increases exponentially with
every node you add mostly i don't know if that's the actual case or not i'm just making a
an educated guess um and so that becomes like a question about like how did that affect
the block production, right?
One of the goals, as we just mentioned earlier, is we want to get block production down to two seconds.
And that's really valuable for ARBs to be more efficient and trading to be more efficient and offer higher capital efficiency.
That's a really good thing to do for the protocol.
And if you put in 200 nodes, then maybe we still aren't two seconds anymore.
Now it's going to be five seconds or four seconds. I don't know. I'm making up numbers here.
And how does that benefit? How does that net negative? Is that a net negative or net positive,
having more nodes or having faster block times? And that's becomes an interesting debate that
people can have. Yeah, it's like a sweet spot there for sure. And that's kind of how i imagine like that's what i was thinking like with your optimizations and other people's
optimizations like you get down to two second block times like then we're super fast which is
great but that's like well what if we added another asgard and got like 20 more nodes that's
what that's what i'm thinking so i think we're gonna find a sweet spot it's a really interesting
conversation uh with the coke yeah oh go Oh, go ahead, Chad. Sorry.
And there's new mechanisms coming out. I know – I think some of the Strangelove team is working on – I can't remember the name of it.
Gorum? Gornam? I can't remember the name of it.
Something like this.
But it's like a new consensus mechanism for Cosmos that is much more efficient.
For Cosmos, that is much more efficient.
It can do much more transactions per second.
It can do much more transactions per second.
So there's also possibilities of future upgrades,
of improving the consensus mechanism underneath it all
to be much more efficient.
So you could have 200 nodes and still have a two-second block time.
That's theoretically possible in our theoretical future.
That makes you really bullish. I love that.
With the Coke coke go ahead
can you hear me guys yeah hey hi guys awesome talk i love it touching different points
future the best everything just a little uh side note about the note count actually we would have
been uh 120 for last five turns already but we just mess up the
key sign so people get uh jailed and they cannot turn in so actually i would say we are being
120 last at least five six turns yeah yeah and by the way when it comes to like we've been talking
a little bit about something called dkls um which is a new kind of like cryptography been talking a little bit about something called DKLS, which is a new kind of cryptography to other way of like managing the vaults, which is, you know, much more established.
It is mathematically provable to be secure.
It's signing speed.
Keygen speed is significantly faster.
We can go from six Asgard into a single Asgard, I think, with TKLS, I believe.
So that's one of the things I would like to see happen over the next six months or a year,
is to move over to that new cryptography that's just going to be faster, better, more secure,
and simplify the code in a lot of ways, which is a positive thing.
So we can go to 120, 150 nodes in a single Asgard would be fucking wild.
That would go a long way to making things more secure too.
Yeah.
Another thing I think about is, let's say remove the hard cap,
and then the argument is, well, this yield to nodes is what's keeping them on us
because they want to earn that revenue.
But then there's actually a bit of an incentive to keep the node count lower
so that the average APY per node is higher.
If a node is consistently 20% to 30% APY,
you're pretty highly confident they're not going to break bad
or do anything nefarious.
At the same time, like you said, less nodes, the faster the network means more,
the faster the network means more trades, more volume.
So it could become a question of, you know, what's the sweet spot for the number of nodes?
Maybe having the most nodes as possible isn't actually necessary because you get to a lot
of diminishing returns.
Maybe 150 is good.
We don't need to do any more.
It'll be an interesting conversation to have.
Yeah, there's good arguments in both directions, to be fair.
And bond wars is one of those things.
If the nodes are getting some massive yield, like 20% or 30%,
then there's going to be a lot of bond wars going on to get into that.
If you expand it to be beyond that point, to be 150 nodes or whatever, then yeah, there's gonna be a lot of bond wars going on to get into that. If you expand it to be beyond that point, to be 150 nodes or whatever,
then the yields can be no longer 20 or 30%.
It's gonna be something much smaller.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing necessarily,
but it is just a question of what are the incentives we want, right?
Well, correct my math.
Maybe I'm making a simple blunder in my head,
but let's say I have a magic wand and I increase the node count by double. That means if nothing changes on the incentive pendulum, blah, blah, blah, that means nodes, essentially, their yield's cut in half, right? But if the yield's cut in half, yeah, go ahead, am I right about that?
Not exactly because assuming the pools are the same and have not doubled, then the amount
of… it wouldn't be half, you would get less than half because the LPs, because there's
so much Rune and the LPs are not the same, the LPs would get a higher percentage of the
system income and notes would get a lower percentage of the system income.
So you would get at minimum half but probably less than that. You're be going closer to 30% or 40%, I'm going to guess.
Okay, good. So you're right about that.
So let's say we double our node count. Let's say we get 30%, but then let's say our volume 100xs, right?
So I think for me, I just want to make the node count as high as possible because I'm thinking ahead like 5-10 years.
If we literally have the volume of Binance right now, I don't think people are going to sweat losing that revenue relative to the amount of nodes that are in the network when we have such an exponential increase in revenue total.
I think everyone wins in that case. That's how my mind thinks about it.
Yeah, I think if you increase the bond, that to me does not necessarily give you more trade volume.
It may have in the past because of the pendulum and the – because we have more security,
the TVL can be larger,
which would generate more volume.
But one thing that JT and I have discussed a little bit,
and we're not quite sure how we feel about it,
but just throwing ideas around,
and it's something I think Maya has already done this,
is allowing LP units to be part of bonding.
And the reason why that's really nice is because as a bond provider,
you can kind of like dip your feet in both pools, so to speak, both revenue sources.
So it would give node operators and bond providers
the ability to put their bond basically into the pool.
So they get the yield from the pool,
but they also get yield for the bond as well.
And it just creates more liquidity in the pools.
Like it ups the TVL quite significantly
if you were to offer this idea.
Whether or not we do it or not it
that's you know i'm not quite sure it's it's an idea it's one of the ideas we've thrown around
to help get the the tvl up um because obviously we want deep deep pools you know deeper pools will
always mean higher higher um uh trade volume always uh better execution better better on fees
faster streaming swaps
ARBs will be
trying to get much more volume
because they have to
because the pools are deeper
the deeper the pools are
the more volume you get inherently
and the more fees you collect
there's no avoiding it
With the Coke
go ahead
Yeah
I mean
I'm not the smartest guy but yeah yeah, I recognize the best crypto project
in the world, blockchain after Bitcoin. But shouldn't it be just like a function of 80-20 rule,
like the classic 80-20? So 80% inactive, and if the people who want to get in to the churn is approaching above 20, then we should raise the node count.
And if not, then we should relax and let the bond war blue meanwhile.
Something like that, like a ratio between people who are in active sets and who want to get in.
Yeah, that's fair. Different strokes from folks, but that's one way to look at it.
Yep, so a succinct question and point there. Arno, you got your hand up. Go ahead.
Yeah, I have a question about – maybe it's a future question, but what are you guys' thoughts on using AI models to verify economic assumptions or stuff like that.
And also, I know that if there is strange activities on the network,
node operators can pause swaps and stuff like that.
But have you guys had any thoughts about incorporating AI mechanisms
to look out for strange patterns like that
and kind of proactively monitor the network
or future code incorporations and stuff like that?
So the short answer is yes.
If you go to my Twitter kind of profile,
you'll see one of my latest tweets
is something called Project
Hugin, which was this idea that I wanted to work on kind of on nights and weekends kind
of thing, like a side project, and just start reading artificial intelligence and applying
it into as many different components of the protocol as we can.
It wouldn't be like in the protocol itself.
I don't think putting AI as part of the protocol would make any sense to me. That would just probably create more chaos than good, in my opinion, especially these years. or bifrost logs to have AI analyze code changes
for node operators so they can validate that there's no...
Like, if I maliciously tried to just, like,
mint 10 million runes in my personal wallet,
like I made a code change that does this,
somehow I maliciously was able to do this,
node operators could run the specific AI that would
allow them that would just check all the code changes and layer anything that looks fucking
weird you know to be more defensive against people like myself um yes there's a lot of things in the
AI world that I'm interested in doing and I've already started working on some of these things
um but it is early in the AI world, and there's a lot of false positives.
And monitoring becomes very difficult because the more like if you get a bad noise to signal
ratio in monitoring, you just stop.
You just mentally just check out of monitoring, and you no longer are paying attention to
any alerts that come up.
And you just like whatever.
You just kind of YOLO it.
It's just a normal psychological effect of that so so i'd be concerned about like kind of false positives and how that
can be depriment to our psychology in some ways but i'm very bullish in ai in the long term i think
that's obviously going to become a larger and larger way especially in the engineering world
and i mean i'm definitely engaging with that wholeheartedly to find out how we can use these technologies to best fit the protocol, best benefit the protocol.
Yeah, that's a really interesting question.
And I'm curious to you, and I'm actually really thankful that you said that it wouldn't be in the protocol.
It would be outside helping with the developer team making the code changes
and various information
streamlined processes better. I think that's good.
Chad, I was curious,
would you have any opinions on
AI trading bots? Do you think that's going to be
a really huge thing on ThorChain?
What do you think about that?
It can be.
I think somebody's going to start mucking around with that and try and try i don't
really like fully understand it like we've had you know trading models for for decades in general
and that's nothing new in that concept using llms because llm is literally what we're talking about
we're talking about ai like yes there's. Yes, there's machine learning. Yes, there's neural nets. Yes, there's other things.
But 90% of the conversation in AI conversation is really around LLMs.
And I really do not think that LLMs are useful in this,
in some sort of trading algo mentality.
I think that's just gambling with something that doesn't really understand
what you're trying to do in some regard. It doesn't make any sense logically to do this personally but trading models have
been around for forever and to building a a bot that trades based upon some model
sure like i'm sure some people i'm sure that people have already done that to some degree
cool stuff kenton do you have something um yeah i want to actually go back to what we're talking
about uh raising the hard cap um if we if we get rid of the hard cap uh we'd have to uh re-evaluate
the incentive pendulum um have you thought about that chat like should we just split it 50 50
between nodes and pools?
Yeah, any thoughts there?
Yeah, that's a good question.
And I've put a little bit of thought into this, but not a lot.
I wouldn't go the whole 50-50 route. I still want to have the incentive that we want people to bond
or we want people to provide liquidity into a pool
to be relative to each other to some degree
but you have to also incorporate i think at that point you have to incorporate that
any secured asset is considered part of the pool in the pendulum you see what i mean
if that makes any sense yeah to be honest i have to i have to think about more deep because even
if you do that it becomes problematic because it it effectively means that all the yield would go towards bonds because the TVL is so high because you have pools, plus you have all the secured assets, which is assumably going to be a high number.
And then you get mostly the yield goes to the bond providers and very likely it goes to the LPs, and that's a problem.
So it's a difficult thing to kind of figure out. i spent a little bit time thinking but i really need to
spend more time on it that's kind of why i'm thinking about it too because like going back
to your share limit swaps and you know order books on rogera and stuff like um if i mean in theory if
those are really successful then then the pools would actually become, would be used less.
Right.
I mean, they might, this would be good to have them because it'd be like the buyer or seller of last resort.
But the majority of volume would be on those like, like limit swaps and order books.
So we wouldn't necessarily need huge or deep pools anymore anyway.
Right.
Yeah.
You can look at it that way.
That's a, it's a fair you can look at it that way.
That's a fair way to look at it.
I hope that's the case.
That would be wonderful if the app layers has more volume than the base layer.
That would be fantastic.
And if that is the case, then we'll handle it
appropriately as a community,
as a team.
And if we still wanted to have the...
Sorry, sorry.
Go ahead.
I want to say if we still like the idea of having the pools
as that buyer of last resort,
instead of maybe having them swap fees,
be able to bond the LP units,
and that's how they get the yield.
So it's still encouraging people to be LPs,
but the way they get their yield is through bonding them.
I don't know.
Thinking out loud.
Yeah.
No, keep thinking out loud.
Throw ideas around.
Let's debate.
Let's argue.
Let's find a consensus.
Yeah, I agree.
I think one of the things is because if I think of myself as an LP, the risk profile between LPs and node operators just in the system we have now, I know we're going to be making tweaks as we go, but it's not the same.
And so for me, it was always hard as an LP, like looking at the incentive pendulum and realizing like, well, you know, the pendulum kind of swings on a ratio of the liquidity between the nodes and the security, between the pools and the
security bonded by the nodes. But that doesn't really tell the whole story because as an LP,
like for a swap, it's contingent on if someone makes a swap in my pool. So I think one of the
first things that can help address this is actually trying to do in the Maya route where
you can bond those liquidity units because then it kind of ubiquitizes from an LP standpoint that they can make yield by providing, you know, liquidity to the pools.
And it's not just a swap that's contingent on, on, you know, on the pool that that's selected swap because especially with like new swaps like XRP, you know, initially when you have a new pool, it's hard to convince LPs in the system we have to go because the volume, you know, and Luna was the one case where that's not true, of course.
But it's hard because, you know, if you deposit LP in there, it's like, well, the swap volume is not going to be good.
It's going to increase probably my impermanent loss, risk, blah, blah, blah.
blah blah blah i think you know what i'm saying um actually boone's up here go ahead ches yeah
I think you know what I'm saying.
Actually, Boone's up here.
Go ahead, Jeff.
chicken the egg problem which is which is why the treasury likes to put in some money in the
beginning of these pools um to some degree at least to help kind of seed some reasonable liquidity
to kind of kind of solve the chicken or the egg because there's no liquidity there's no trade if
you can't trade there's no there's no fees no fees no liquidity and just becomes this kind of infinite circle of you know of uh of difficultness so i think the
the treasury just kind of like you know eats it and just throws in a hundred thousand dollars or
two hundred thousand dollars into a pool just to just to see that was so has some reasonable
reasonable amount of liquidity to start it and hopefully let the community or the capitalistic markets to help fund it further.
Yeah, precisely. Go ahead, Boone.
Yeah, can you guys hear me?
Yep.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, this just touches on that idea I floated yesterday
that a lot of people seem to kind of like,
which was repurposing the burn
into seeding basically protocol-owned liquidity in the smaller pools, probably the newer pools,
as a way to solve that chicken and egg problem. I think just relying solely on the treasury,
you know, the treasury only has so much funds um and it it you know can only do so
much um and then if we go back five minutes in this conversation it also like theoretically if
we do that over time um as kenton was pointing out we don't really need that much depth in the
pools if we're using these limit order swaps and rapid swaps where you're still
going through the pool, but you don't need the depths because almost every trade is immediately
countered, right? And so it doesn't move the price that much. And if we could switch to a primary
liquidity model of protocol-owned liquidity, then we don't really need to pay. It's just one less place that revenue needs to go.
We don't need to pay LPs, and it's just that much more capital efficient.
And so I know a lot of people, there was a lot of conversation about this idea yesterday,
and maybe it's a good time to bring that up here.
Yeah, I mean, I'm open to the idea of like if i understand what boom was saying instead of burning
the burn room the we're currently burning just basically just like deposit it into a pool or a
series of pools um have it owned by the protocol itself yeah i think that makes some sense because
at least you're the difference here is like just to compare the two notions when you burn room what
you're really doing is you're redistributing the value of the market cap um from the person that you're burning from whoever
is a current owner of that um and you're distributing it more or less relative to
prorata to how much room each person has that's what you're doing which is good in some sense
but i've never been a fan of like of distributing value to rune holders that are not participating
in the protocol like cold wallet runeholders.
I don't want to incentivize them to do that.
It's a more efficient use of capital to put that towards people who are LPing or bonding or taking an active participation.
You want to reward those, in a sense. But if you do this whole PUL thing, then you're slowly building
the pools over time to create a solid foundation that we're never going to have less, you know,
value in the pools than what the PUL basically holds because the PUL will never, you know,
withdraw or sell or whatever, you know. Well, I don't want to say never, you know, things can
change. People can vote in one direction or another, but that would be the starting mentality at least.
Yeah, I think reducing the risk of LP capital flight is actually a really smart thing just to really harden up the protocol.
You know, I actually really like Boone's idea because I think you said, Booneone like if we had the last 30 days had redirected
like maybe like imagine some amir that nodes can control or 100 of that once was burn rate going
to the pool it would have what almost doubled the size of the pool if i remember it would have been
42 percent deeper so like almost half again as deep as it is which 30 days that's that's not
insignificant and like what kenton and boone
and others have been saying is you know thor chain is so stupidly capital efficient and we're only
going to get even more stupidly capital efficient um it's amazing what we can accomplish with very
with a relatively shallow pool it's truly incredible uh go ahead with with the coke
yeah i just have to chip in this as well.
Like the burn of the 5%,
it kind of came from the scrambles of the Thorfire collapse
and it is not efficient use of the capital.
And I don't have the link,
but I remember I read like article
about the whole burn mechanism
and it was like a research and it said that at the end,
when it comes to numbers, it doesn't add up. Maybe it's narrative driven. Yeah, we tried it.
It kind of didn't bump the price anyway. So I'm on board to use this 5% in a logical manner as well.
We as a community are such smart guys here.
We have these open discussions.
I think we can use this 5% of the revenue.
And by just leveraging our knowledge, we can boost it to basically 20%.
So we can make this capital even more efficient than just burning and
throwing the money away so I'm totally in a I would love to have this discussion maybe next
week or week after like what which what should we do with this 5% it should not be just burnt it's
I think burning 5% is is the just like the easiest way to get rid of
the money and like making a charade or show that we we did something for the community but yeah but
but just keep in mind though if you if you don't burn it and you take it and say you like put it
into like a pol kind of thing protocol on. What's really happening underneath the hood is that you're taking basically half that rune,
market selling it into whatever pools
we're putting the rune into,
Bitcoin or Ether or whatever it is.
So you're having like a little bit of a market sell,
like half the amount approximately.
Yeah, I absolutely do.
No, there's no sell pressure.
There's no sell pressure, right?
Maybe it's okay.
There's no sell pressure, right?
Because it's all revenue, right?
It just depends where you draw the box.
Yeah, and I would say, let's say, even if it's like 2.5% will be market sell.
Let's be honest.
5% market buy didn't affect the price that much upside.
5% market buy didn't affect the price that much upside.
So the flows of the capital, the people who want to come in, go out,
actually move the price way more in excess than this 5% or 2.5%.
So having a protocol-owned liquidity, this builds up our cushion for failure
as well, as Patriot
said, if times
get hard. I think
this time, when the
Thor5 collapse actually happened,
I think a lot
of the, for the majority,
in a big sense, we were saved
by the protocol
on liquidity as well. We had
this safety cushion. Okay, let's say
a lot of people went for exits
but still we could maintain
the business. So it gives us
like a fail safe
so we can experiment more.
And by experiment I mean just
innovate. We don't want to
experiment and blow things up but it gives gives us this, like, a cushion.
Yeah, I've actually been putting together,
I'm running, like, a long-form kind of defense of my argument.
And just, so over the last 30 days,
the burn has averaged, like, $2,600 a day.
And the Rune token does like $120 million in volume a day. So like a $2,600 buy into $120 million of volume is nothing, right?
So the price impact of the burn is negligible, at least in the short term, over long term. Sure,
it can start to add up. But I would just simply argue that we're not in the stock buyback phase
of a business. We are in the let's do growth phase of a business and investing into our own protocol
by way of liquidity is probably a smarter use of those funds.
And yeah, so over that same 30 days, it was about $78,000.
Adding that to the XRP pool, which is about $200,000,
that's a significant increase in the depth of that pool.
And like what the coach just pointed out,
protocol on liquidity is something we can always fall back on. and so i just think it makes a lot of sense and i'll be fleshing out my argument in a long form uh essay as well yeah and even if i go more obnoxious i
have to say like what we learned when it came to xrp yes we integrated new chain and we get like
on on some days we get like 10k volume 40k volume or
whatever it's it's such a small volume and as i i do in many times with patreon or eric in the
in the xrp community spaces they just don't know about thor chain we have so much ground to cover
when it comes to just being recognized, being known in the business.
So I feel like just burning the money is hurting us.
Let's use this money to market ourselves.
And Kenton is working on something.
I don't know what.
It's not that public.
So I think in that reason, let's at least have either cushion or at least show
ourselves to the, like the outer public or the, there is so much more to do
with this 5%, because as I mentioned before, we have the, we have the brain
cells guys, we can leverage this 5% to be like a 20% outcome.
Let's not just throw it away and call it a day.
I agree with you with the Coke.
I totally agree with you, Boone, about the growth phase of ThorChain,
the capital can be used better.
That's how I was thinking about actually is that money could go towards marketing.
I have been working on this for a few months now.
If you guys heard me ranting about having our own front end, it's really difficult to cope with a marketing plan for a third party.
And, and even if the third party is on board and like I was trying to figure something out with Trust Wallet and, you know, there, we could spend all this time and energy marketing Trust Wallet, but they're just going to root.
There's no guarantee they're going to root trades to us.
And with Ledger, at least you go on there and you can select ThorChain.
So maybe I'm going to change gears towards Ledger.
Maybe we can do something there.
But still, I think it's more important for us to have our own front end,
whether it's a third party that is managing it or not.
We can figure that out later.
But have like ThorChain.swap or whatever you want to call it,
and we can market that and drive volume to that.
I still think having integrations is great.
I think we should still integrate new wallets.
I don't think that should stop.
And I don't think it's going to vampire attack users from our wallets either.
I think it will just open up a whole new audience for us that we can tap into.
And so there you go.
That 5% that's being burned, we can put some of that money towards a new front end, towards marketing.
And, you know, people always, you know, how many times you guys seen on Twitter
where it's like there's a chart
of all these 10 or 15
protocols and ThorChain is never
on it and
the reason is because that's not real research
it's paid for marketing
and you have to pay to get your protocol
on it like Masari
and all these other so called research
platforms you have to pay
to get in. And it's just, they're just copy and pasting the TradFi investment research model.
It's all pay for play. So if we want door chain to get out there and be recognized,
we have to pay for it. It's just, that's just how it goes. And it's, and it's not like you can just do it once. You have to do it like continuously,
like, like press releases, for example, we have the new ripple pool.
We should press release that, but it's like 10 or 15 grand to get it out on,
on, you know, all the different wires, maybe even more. You know,
you can't just do one press release and be like, okay, it's done. You know,
we've done our marketing. Like, no, you have to do that for years. So if we've got a percentage
of revenues going towards that kind of marketing every month, we can't be on top of it consistent
and just constantly just like getting the message out there, paying to get it in front of people.
out there paying to get it in front of people.
And that kind of marketing takes time,
just saturating the market with our content.
So I'm jumping all over the place.
For me with marketing, that's like a secondary goal.
The primary goal of marketing is to get users,
to do some kind of SEO or paid for click,
to get people to swap on ThorChain.
So we get volume up, get the revenue up,
get the proof of concept up from marketing.
That gives us more money from marketing
that we can go on press releases and other kind of stuff.
So yeah, I agree with you guys.
The money being spent on the burn
could arguably be used for much,
other things that have much more impact today.
And I'm going to,
something you requested to speak.
I'm going to go let them come up.
CK Cardano.
I'm approving you right now.
Yeah. When it comes to marketing,
I was a co-founder
of Estonian biggest female
fitnesswear brands
and that for sure
taught me. Marketing
is key.
It doesn't matter how good stuff you have how cheap or whatever marketing
associating yourself with the brand and also building a brand repetition recognition and
how the brand looks for the outer good i think this is the that that's what we are lacking a lot. We get attacked every day by haters, by
exact XPT or whatever
the people are. And I think
the public image
is kind of not at the
best at the moment. So
marketing, association,
getting some
bigger players
speaking about us
is a key. agree that that's that'd be fit in the pr
component public relations right and again that's something that it has to be ongoing it's not a
one-time like three months six month contract and then you're done we basically have to commit to
doing it permanently and have a permanent budget. It doesn't have to
be, you know, $5 million a year, but like, it has to be some known amount per month so that we can
like, you know, commit to it. But I completely agree with you. Like we should be doing it because
I think this is where a lot of crypt, like the cryptos that succeed, everybody's wondering like,
oh, you know, it's, you know, these meme meme coins that's not how they have such a huge market cap and ThorChain doesn't it's because they market they promote
you know they may not like the way that they're winning but they're promoting it and we have zero
promotion with ThorChain um so if we put a little bit of effort into it I'm positive it's going to
work um and the great thing with ThorChain is that we have real revenue.
We have continuous money coming in, whereas all these other protocols, they don't.
And so a lot of their marketing budgets are fixed.
They can only do it temporarily or one time or whatever.
Whereas if we have an ongoing one consistent, it's kind of like walking and eating healthy
every day, it'll pay off dividends over the years. And that's what like XRP and Ripple and Cardano, like they're fantastic
at marketing. They get the message out. Like that's why every normie friend that you've had,
when they ever come and ask you about crypto, they always ask about Ripple and Cardano. It's
like, how do you know about these? They don't know about any about crypto, they always ask about, you know, Ripple and Cardano. It's like, how do you know about these?
They don't know about any other crypto,
but they know about those.
It's because they've,
they've nailed web to marketing,
you know,
this is old fashioned getting the name out there.
I think Thor chain should do the same.
CK Cardano,
you got,
you want to jump in?
Yeah,
man.
Thank you for having me up, bro.
I really do appreciate that, Ken.
And a shout out to the room.
Shout out to ThorChain.
I saw you guys having a space and just wanted to drop through and say how excited I am to hear that you guys are out here, that you're having conversations, you're moving the project forward.
You're talking about marketing ways to grow the chain. Kind of on that point and just in generally on like the freedom liberty
piece, I think a really strong piece of the marketing for ThorChain is that ThorChain
empowers Bitcoin. ThorChain empowers Ethereum. ThorChain empowers Litecoin. It helps fulfill
the vision that Satoshi was going for.
Right. Because think about it. Right. When we have our assets in Binance or Coinbase and these things,
reality is a lot of people like to talk about like, is there manipulation in the market? How
how free of a market are we truly seeing? How coupled with incoming demand is the supply side, is the spot price that we see when we look
at, say, Bitcoin. So thank you again for allowing me some time. But for like Bitcoin, for instance,
let's say just theoretically that Bitcoin has a liquidity pool of 40,000 Bitcoin, right? And
there's rules on TradFi where you had 48 hours to make your books honest, right? So if we did a lot
of business
and I moved a million dollars from A to B, you know, on the other side of the world,
I would typically have 48 hours settlement rule to make my books honest. Well, think about this,
right? Let's say that you're Coinbase and you're custodying 5,000 Bitcoin for someone in the
Middle East, let's say, right? And then unexpectedly, they come to Coinbase and say,
hey, we'd like our 5,000 Bitcoin into self-custody. So they come, they treasure off their Bitcoin. Now, what does Coinbase do?
They have that 48-hour rule. And when, if you have 40,000 Bitcoin worth of liquidity,
and let's say retail demand in the United States is 10,000 Bitcoin, you're put in a position where
all you have to do, like FTX did, is update account dashboards, right?
So if you're Bob, Sue, and Jill, and Bob puts in $100, Sue puts in $1,000, and so on,
if you're Bitcoin and you have enough liquidity depth, you are decoupling from market demand,
incoming buy orders in US dollars, yen, you know, what have you, any currency.
So what this does, again again is it's unhealthy and it
puts power in the hands of centralized actors like Coinbase and Binance. What ThorChain does
is impose honesty on the market, damn it. And it empowers us where I don't have to KYC myself
and go into, you know, the Caesar's land, rendering the Caesaresar style um you know so so i just i think there are aspects of
thor chain that on the marketing side and just the education piece for the community that like
even if you're not you know participating in liquidity if you're just a big fan if you're
a bitcoin maximalist damn it i do not see why you are not pounding the drum for thor chain and maya
swap uh or maya protocol Those are my two favorites.
My two favorites.
I respect greatly the open source approach of the, of the, of both of the projects.
Cause to me, what you're doing, I talk about, you know, when we were all in school and you,
you're maybe in a hard class, you get a group project and you're like, oh God, we're proper
screwed.
No, I don't know how to do this.
But then in your group is the quiet kid in the corner.
You never talked to that ends up being the damn genius. Everyone gets an A because this kid has
some crazy savant ability. That's what happens when you open source projects to the world,
right? You are crowdsourcing the minds of all those quiet kids that you didn't know that can
get the A. And to me, that's infinite value creation. That's infinite problem solving.
And to me, that's infinite value creation.
That's infinite problem solving.
That's infinite freedom capability, right?
And so as we do our educational piece and we say, hey, guys, you can make more of this money yourself.
Like right now, if you have a couple pieces, for one, just the inflation.
If you had a million dollars in a U.S. account on January 1st this year, you now have $900,000 worth of value just to put a little color on the inflation in the U.S. account on January 1st this year, you now have $900,000 worth of value, just to put a little
color on the inflation in the U.S. dollar. So not only is there obviously growing adoption of
cryptocurrency technologies, but the dollar is very unwell. Why do I bring that up? Let's say
that you have your dollars currently deposited in a U.S. bank, right? The way that it works,
you might have a million dollars that they're lending. They're making 10, 15% on it and giving you 2, 3, 4%, right?
What cryptocurrency is doing by us taking charge of our liquidity pools in our banking,
we can then get that yield on our assets. So if we're sitting there on $50,000 worth of savings,
$100,000, whatever it is, by being our own banks, by participating in things like ThorChain,
getting involved in liquidity,
getting involved in lending and borrowing and stable coins and all these things. Guys, it allows us to reap the benefit of that plenty.
It allows the people to actually have the productive output of our collective capital.
And that's very powerful.
And ThorChain and these sort of decentralized atomic cross-chain
swapping capabilities and protocols are essential instruments in that effort to liberate humanity
economically. So I just really wanted to come up here and say that in so many words, because I
think part of the marketing story for the ThorChains and whatnot is not only the exceptionally
compelling aspects of the project itself and what ThorCh chain brings to the market, but the ways in which these
these open source freedom technologies and approaches that we never saw coming on Halloween
night 2008, right, when the white paper was released. These are new maturations and
organic manifestations of what freedom means,
and I'm bullish for it.
And so Thor Chain telling that tale,
getting this freedom technology to the people,
I'm excited about it.
I'm out here pounding the drum all day, every day.
So I'll land the plane with this, guys.
I often, because that's what I do with most of my time,
is just I'm out here trying to educate people,
get people in these technologies,
get your freedom, own your money, own your time, own your hours and all this.
What is the distinction between, say, ThorChain and ThorSwap, like these accounts?
Are they just kind of two entities of functionalities?
Just because I used to rep the ThorChain account, but then ThorSwap seemed to be more maybe socially active.
So is there a difference?
Should I be supporting, repping both?
Is there any kind of maybe color or clarity
on the ThorChain-ThorSwap relationship?
Sure, yeah.
So I can tell you the origin story of ThorSwap
was that in the early days of ThorChain's history,
when we were first building it,
and I was in Melbourne, Australia,
and me and JP were working with Heimdall, blah, blah, blah, people.
And so we hired uh
this guy and this guy to build what at the time we called bep swap was at the time it was bnb only
uh not beacon changes before beacon chain sorry before the smart chain uh but in smart chain
and so he built like a ui that was going to be kind of the front end of thor chain and he did it
as part of the team initially.
And then eventually he wanted to break off into his own project,
and so he asked for basically money from the treasury to fund this,
and we gave him a bag of money.
And so he created something called ThorSwap,
which was, I think the intended goal was that it wouldn't just do swaps with
ThorChain it would also integrate with other DEXs or other sources of
liquidity and trade routes and so they're a separate project done by
separate people kind of birthed out of the ThorChain community in a literal
sense but they are their own they stay on their own two feet they have their
own income these days it's a a good project, much one of many.
And it's actually one of the reasons why we have never really pushed on the whole marketing thing,
is that the marketing, kind of the mentality was kind of like,
ThorChain doesn't really need to do any marketing, what needs to do marketing is ThorSwap, right?
And, you know, other wallets in the the industry and just let those wallets be more
successful and let them market themselves trust wallet and ledger and thor swap and you know
whatever other wallets out there like get wallets in the door let them you know bring us the volume
so that a lot of times people don't even know they're interacting with thor chain it's just
something that happens in the background um and providing really good good service service for them, but they aren't even consciously aware that they...
I know Kento was talking about people don't even know what ThorChain is, and that's true.
Sometimes when I go to conferences or whatever, people don't even know what the hell ThorChain even is.
But I think a lot of those times, people have used it. They just
don't know they've used it. Same thing with
Shapeshift. In the audience, Shap know simply shapeshift uh in the in the audience
there shapeshift uses thor chain in the background um and so people think they're trading with
shapeshift and then they are but shapeshift is um you know utilizing uh thor chain along with
uniswap and other other sources of you know pathways and stuff so there's an argument you
can make that the thor chain should not do marketing it should get the wallets to the marketing and that's
a legitimate argument like it's a legitimate stance to have well that's the correct stance
or not I don't know we can we can we can have that debate I honestly don't even know how much
the Treasury has in capital right now um I don't know if it's like 5 million or 10 million or what the number even is
i would say it's amazing that the thought chain has this uh the baby the way we are like we have the back end we have the front end the front ends like the soldiers who run but to have more bonders
and have this like a core functionality working as it shoots you have the acquired security we
kind of have to actually market ourselves as well so that's that's the thing that we have to keep
in mind yeah yeah my position is just have our own front and do it in addition to all of that
like just like we can keep going with the wallets and do them
and all that kind of stuff. Great.
It's not either or. We can do our own in addition to them.
Yeah, I think the result, though, if ThorChain does marketing,
let's say, hey, you should use ThorChain. ThorChain's great.
You can get really great price execution on Bitcoin trades, blah, blah, blah.
That's my marketing poster that I'm putting on a billboard somewhere.
Then the first question they're going to ask is, Oh, great.
How do I use it? Well,
you should go check out Asgard X or Thor swap or trust wallet or this.
And your, so your,
your marketing is really marketing for those wallets, right.
In a matter of speaking.
And you're basically doing their marketing for them.
Now it's still in our own benefit.
We get back some value from all that, of course, unless we have like a ThorChain kind of official
wallet, so to speak, which we've never really had, historically speaking.
I'm still down to building a wallet myself at some point, not even a wallet, just more
at some point not even a wallet just more of like a interface to trade once we had the memo this
of like an interface to trade.
transactions feature kind of landed and you can and you can do a thor chain swap without needing
to embed a memo into your transaction so you can swap from any wallet in the world it doesn't matter
you can just go to like you know chad's wallet chadswappingservice.com or the hell it's going to
be called um and it just gives you a qr
code you just scan it send it and you're and you can trade um on thort chain without uh needing a
special wallet or whatever like i think that's going to be a big thing and i thought memelix
was kind of scrapped is it still on the table is it is it the same design you're talking about
is it a new design uh it's the so it's it's still on table it's one of the things you want to
get done this year is memel is the there's really like two schools of
thoughts on it there's one I've actually done the coding the coating is actually
already done I did that like a year and a half ago or I think it was or maybe
even two years ago it's just mostly just picking it up and kind of getting it
across the the finish line so to speak the design is this two different
design ideas one is when you do a trade you have you have to establish some sort of unique identifier
so you know what the trade intention is what somebody's sending you some Bitcoin usually the
memo tells the protocol you know what they want to do. They want to trade to Ethereum at this price or whatever the hell it is and create a secured asset, whatever.
So you need some other way of uniquely identifying those transactions.
And there's two mentalities.
One is, which is basically doing what the rest of the industry more or less does, which you have what's called an HD wallet,
a high-quality deterministic wallet,
where you can have thousands, hundreds of thousands of addresses that go to the same private keys.
And so you generate a new unique address basically per memo, right?
And then people just send money to that address,
which is still the same private keys as the Asgard vaults,
just a different wallet to get to the same place,
different address to get to the same private keys as as the asgard vaults just a different wallet to get to the same place different address to get to the same wallet so that uniqueness allows you to be able to to identify who that trader is and what their memo intent is um by that kind of
way of identification the problem with this though is that it puts a lot of more stress on the uh the
node infrastructure to be able to understand maybe hundreds, if not thousands,
of more wallet addresses than just the six that it monitors today.
The six Asgard vaults that it monitors today.
So it's a lot more work.
And then you have to worry about, in some chains, UTXO consolidation is a concern, right? And what do you do when you send the non-gas asset
to a new wallet address that doesn't have any gas in it?
So then it becomes the problem of like,
well, you can only support this really for gas assets only,
and maybe that's okay because that's, you know,
the vast majority of the trades anyway.
So that's one way of doing it,
and there's cons to that approach.
The other way of doing it, which is the way it's currently coded, is actually embedding a unique identifier in the amount that you're sending.
So if you're trying to send one Bitcoin, what you will actually send is one Bitcoin plus within 10,000 sats, some sort of five-character number that your identification number like in the last few sats of the of the trade so as long as you send seven money correctly in terms
of the amount then everything will work just as fine it requires almost no changes to bifrost or
any of the codes clean it's simple uh it's less prone to to issues in some ways um but of course there's like negatives that were like somebody you know
scans the qr code on their phone it creates a transaction they see that it says 1.00001543
whatever and they're like i don't want the 543 blah blah and just put it to one and they send it
and it doesn't work and then it causes a refund and then they're confused and it's a bad UX.
And, you know, there's pros and cons to both approaches,
but I think the feature is something
I think would be very valuable to the protocol.
It's like one area that Chainflip does fairly well too
that I want to become more competitive on.
And once we have that, I want to build a UI
that takes advantage of that
and only charges one VIF in fees.
So you basically have a near free way of trading on ThorChain that is quick, easy, fast, you know, very, very not featureful, but just very simple, quick and to the point.
Well, Chainflip's front end can be buggy with connecting the wallets I've experienced in the past. So a memo-less transaction website would be, in essence, zero bugs, right?
It should be very, very smooth and clean, right?
Because you don't have to connect your wallet.
Yeah, it's a lot easier.
You don't have to connect your wallet anymore.
You just have to do a transaction.
But you just have to do the transaction correctly.
Yeah.
And that's where the trouble comes in. If you you around with the wallet address or you around the amounts or
you around with it with some way so you have to when you do this you have to like put a big giant
you know alert or notification on the screen that's like please do not send your money to
other addresses please do not change the amount that's being transferred keep it where it is
like don't touch it just send it kind it where it is. Don't touch it, just send it.
Verify it,
but don't manipulate it.
Does anyone else, any other
DEXs or protocols use minimal as transactions?
Or would this be
a first to use it like that?
It would be
a first for us. I don't know
if Chainflip has
something conceptually similar.
They'd probably do what I would assume.
Okay.
But going back to the memeless type using sats at the end of your actual amount,
as long as if they enter in the wrong amount of Bitcoin,
if it gets returned to them, that's huge.
That's good.
At least they don't risk losing it.
But I guess if they entered in a different address,
then they could lose it forever.
But I guess
you have to be pretty daft to change
the address, I would think.
If you do it the address way,
that's probably less prone for
issues from the user's side, right?
I think that's less likely to have problems.
You're more likely to have problems on the protocol side because you're doing something that is a lot more complicated than how things work today.
So there'll be issues, there'll be bugs, you have to iron out over time, whatever.
The amount thing, you embed the information in the amount,'s more user user upable in a sense and and as long as you like if you just change to one bitcoin flat then you'll
just get refund and you get your money back you'll be confused why it didn't work uh but if you'd like
you don't like one two five four at the end you want one two five seven and you just like manually
change it and you don't have a memo then you might be sending your
money to somebody else and well that sucks right but you have to like manually do that to fuck it
up you know uh by hand uh and so you that's why you need to put a good notification on the screen
that says your the amount is really important please do not touch it or increase it or decrease
it just leave it as is and everything will be fine you know but if people fuck around with it they could send their
money to somebody else's ether wallet address you know something like that and
the the problem with having a website say like Thor swap where you connect like a
dozen different wallets the the headache or the problem with maintaining and
creating a site like Thor swap is supporting all those wallets.
That's actually the difficult part.
Having the swaps go through ThorChain, that's the easy part.
So by having a website that just does memelous transactions, that would be a very easy website to launch and maintain.
Am I right?
Yeah.
The website itself would be remarkably simple and remarkably easy.
It'd be, it'd be so small and,
and easy to use because there would no be,
wouldn't no be like, there wouldn't be a requirement to connect your wallet.
You just, you just say, Hey, you just tell what you want. I have Bitcoin.
I'm going to send you one Bitcoin and I want to get, you just tell what you want. I have Bitcoin. I'm going to send you one Bitcoin, and I want to get ETH on the other side or whatever.
And it just designs a memo and then broadcast a transaction on ThorChain to register that memo with your transaction that you're about to do.
And then you send just a transaction of one Bitcoin to this address with this amount which it which is embedded in the qr code like
when you do the qr code scan on your phone whatever it'll just like it'll pre-populate
everything correctly for you um and then you just you can verify it before before he hits before you
hit send if you want to and then that's it like it's it's the fastest way to do a trade or a swap
by far it's the fastest easiest and simple way of doing the trade a swap would be that way
without a doubt at first blush it's like uh doing something different we got to train the user on on how to use a new interface but if you if you think about it a bit deeper this could be huge
because how many people even is even like savvy crypto users have had their wallets drained because they connect their wallet to a malicious website.
And how many savvy users, again, actually avoid that altogether for that very reason?
And if memory serves me, I want to say his plan B was talking about swapping Bitcoin for Tether or something.
And then the Thorchads got in his feed and was actually engaging with them.
And he's like, oh, I don't wanna connect my wallet
to a website.
And they're like, oh, well,
memiless transactions is coming, blah, blah, blah.
And that like piqued his interest.
And so even if I get Bitcoin maxi,
with this memiless transaction,
it'd be really hard for them to ignore.
And it could be, going back to marketing,
it could be a fantastic selling point,
fantastic product to sell, to get out there and pitch.
Because, yeah, we're solving a problem.
You don't have to connect your wallet.
You're more secure.
You're more safe.
And then all that volume, all that activity is going through ThorChain.
It can't be directed anywhere else because it's our front end.
It's going to us.
So, yeah, my brain is on fire right now.
This is cool.
I think it would be great.
And there's actually a secondary value to it that is not obvious that people wouldn't grasp immediately.
And that is if you are doing mem doing memoless transactions when i do a bitcoin
transaction like to swap bitcoin to ethereum and if somebody's looking at my wallet they don't know
what just what just happened right they know that i transferred some bitcoin to some address but
they don't know if i was swapping to ethereum they don't we wouldn't even know immediately
whether it was swapping to thor chain or not It would just be a Bitcoin transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain.
And it would just look like everything else for the most part.
It wouldn't be immediately clear or obvious what that person was doing because you're not embedding memo information and explaining what they're doing or where that Bitcoin is going to end up, which might be an ETH address or something like this.
this and then you compare that with batch outbounds which is another feature we're not going to get
into the details but that would also make outbound transactions not have a memo as well if that
outbound transactions would be become memoless so you have inbound memos that are no longer
inbound transactions that no longer have memos and you have outbound transactions that no longer
have memos so if you're doing like you, an on-chain analysis of somebody's wallet,
it becomes a lot less clear that a trade even occurred.
It gives you a little bit of some level of privacy.
I wouldn't say it's like private, all right?
Like I'm not going to make that claim,
but it's a layer of obfuscation
that would naturally occur from that as well.
But, you know, it's not rocket science.
Somebody could put A and B together if they wanted to,
but it just becomes a little bit more difficult to do so.
Would this work with DEX aggregation or not?
So on DEX aggregation,
you would need the outbound memo to inform the DEX aggregation.
So in that case, you would need the outbound memo in order to inform the DEX aggregation what to happen.
Okay, so if you had Bitcoin, you wanted to go to Zcash, which is on my protocol, could you do it?
I'm sorry, my brain's kind of broken trying to think of this. Would you be able to have that perk where it's not 100% private, but it's an element of privacy that someone had to put A and B together, or would that not work?
But you could make it work in the sense of like, if Maya protocol were to implement memos transactions as well, like say they import the feature from us directly, right? Totally possible. Maybe they'll be able to do it.
maya tokens with the instructions to swap to zcash or whatever um register that memo from our from
one of our as guards to the maya's protocol and then send an outbound transaction without a memo
to kind of have that labor of like obfuscation see right if possible would that happen or not
i don't know possibly we can debate it later or whatever.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Let's forget the privacy part of it. Would you just be able to think what trades on Dash?
Dash trades on Maya.
So if I have Bitcoin, I go to the store chain front end, do Memo a swap.
Bitcoin, can I buy Dash?
Will the Dash aggregation and door chain take care of
that or is it only the pools on door chain that i'd be able to trade through memolist oh well if
i do that if i build this memolist site that i have in mind then yeah you'll be able theoretically
you'll be able to just swap to dash um you know directly with all that workflow. Awesome.
In the end, all it's really doing is
just publishing a memo to the 14
blockchain and then creating an association between
your transaction and that memo.
So you can do whatever you want.
There's no limits to that, right?
You know, so maybe like
in V1, I wouldn't do it just to keep
things simple. You know, on V1,
they have a narrowly scoped kind of MVP product.
And maybe even just support Bitcoin ETH only on day one,
just to kind of like let the code kind of prove its legitimacy
and its non-bugginess before we start opening up the floodgates to more things.
But theoretically, you can do anything you want,
including interacting with the app layer because i know the vast majority of volume in crypto is
coin tether uh east to tether bitcoin to heath or whatever um but in my opinion in my mind that's
just gonna for now anyways and continue on centralized exchanges the um the low-hanging fruit for us for thor chain
is is capturing all the trades that don't occur on centralized exchanges and that's basically
through all the coins for lack of that word like you don't like using that term sorry i shouldn't
use it for uh all the trades through all of crypto basically right and um um so if the memo-less transaction website can connect bitcoin with
several thousand different cryptos through dex segregation uh that's huge because we're going to
get those marginal users that you know they're trying to go from crypto a to b and then just
they have to go through like four different websites to do it
and but if we can do it on just on our front end um we're gonna get users for sure
yeah i think that's one of the attractive things to me is that like if somebody says to me oh hey i want to make a trade on on on thorchan how do i do that i might tell them you know like
first i'll ask them like do you have TrustWallet?
Do you have Ledger?
Do you have this?
Do you have that?
What wallet do you have?
And then once I have that information,
I'm like, okay, ThorSwap's really good
for your wallet that you're using.
ThorSwap's a really good option for you, blah, blah, blah.
And it's kind of like a very detailed
and complicated kind of conversation
to get people onboarded to start trading
or swapping on Thorchain.
But if you have a wallet like this one, or a wallet but a interface like this one somebody says hey how do i trade
on thor chain you just say oh go to super cheap swapping.com whatever the name the domain is
going to be and that that's it you're done and they just go and it's a very simple ui it's like
it's very easy very quick and very, and very little mental load to understand,
oh, how do I connect my wallet?
And how do I do this?
And what page?
Okay, what does this mean?
By keeping it very simple and straightforward, like a duller kind of UI
that is not featureful, does not give you advanced capabilities,
but it just gets the job done, has good value to it, I think, in our ecosystem.
Well, I think this might be a good middle ground, Kenton, because Chad can make this site, and then we can help push that, right?
I think that's a really cool middle ground, and it brings a unique value proposition, I think, to swapping itself.
Absolutely.
It becomes easy to get people on the site you know trading we're figuring out all kinds of shit today guys i love it i love when you do the spaces we all get
up here uh this is the way to do it i love it everyone gets their brains together we start
cooking on stage and live you know what do we talk about today with the regerans we're really
stopping on our security posture.
So you guys better get excited
because, you know, I think scaling
is not going to be a problem.
I know you guys, a lot of guys
are worried about that,
but I think, you know,
I'm really warming up to that too.
You know what I mean?
Because I've been putting a lot
of thought of it.
And the way I just see that
the node posture and just overall
the sentiment of the community
and just the type of people involved,
it's becoming less and less of a concern.
And I'm really digging this memeless idea,
Kenton and Chad. I think it's great.
I think it's great.
I was actually talking
recently to an old
dev that was around in the past. I'm not going to say
which one quite yet,
but an old dev that we had around
in our past, one of our really good devs we used to
have, he actually kind of came out of the woodwork and came forward to me recently.
Like last week, I think it was, or maybe two weeks ago.
And he was really interested in learning more about our roadmap.
And so I walked him through what the roadmap is.
I've got like eight or nine different features that it's in my current thinking of the roadmap for the base layer.
And we got onto the memolist transactions like, oh, that's actually really interesting.
He was really kind of interested in that particular feature.
So there's a possibility that he might come back to the team and get this memolist transactions, you know, across the finish line.
That'd be huge.
Yeah.
Can you share with us that roadmap you said
like nine things you've gone over to the limit swaps and rapid swaps what are the other seven
things on your list uh so limit swaps rapid swaps is the first one there's two kind of sit in the
same bucket um bond provider rotate memo which is actually already delivered i think in 3.7 maybe 3.8 i can't
remember which one yeah 3.8 maybe um which is allows the i think the bond provider to change
addresses i think um as well as the node operator too to be able to change their node operator
address it's just like a kind of nice thing to do for for operators and bond providers um the next
one is edDSA,
which I think is already merged in 3.8.
I think that one's already done.
So with EDDSA support,
we can now support things like Sol and Cardano.
I know CK Cardano's in the audience,
but we can now support adding Cardano
into our chains we support,
which is another one we're looking at.
Two-second block times, another one.
Updating the router, the EVM router, to support batch outbounds and also Memolus.
That's something that's on the docket.
Batch outbounds, which I think Liquify is actually going to be contracted to work on that.
I've actually already implemented that for Bitcoin two years ago.
There's like six PRs open that have been open forever.
They just have to be kind of stewarded across the finish line in a sense.
There's Memolist, which I all around our cryptography and improving our cryptography to a more modern and provably secured mechanism.
an execute memo for example um um oracle feeds uh for price feeds for more reliable um uh information
to the app player about the price of bitcoin whatever so it's not any uh tomfoolery trying
to manipulate prices for perpetuals um and then the other thing we talked about but we're not quite
sure about is zero block swaps so being able to trade uh you
know Bitcoin to ETH in zero comps um and that you can do that because you've turned off um our RFE
uh replaced by fee RBF um and then if there is a reorg of some kind which um bitcoin these days i mean reorgs almost never happen um because
the the compute is so high that it's really hard to get to reorg these days but um the the wallet
would would wear the the risk of any kind of reorg scenarios instead of the protocol so as a wallet
like to say your thor swap for example you could offer like two fees, right? You could also like, you know, 30-bit fee if you want to do like a regular trade. Or you can offer like a 60-bit fee if you want like zero conf, you know, to have a faster execution, you know, as a second option for ThorSwap to do if they wanted to do that.
um sourcewap to do if they wanted to do that uh i don't know if that's actually going to happen or
not we've discussed it debated a little bit um we've discussed and debated a little bit about
allowing lps to become bond providers just so we can get um more money or more capital into our
pools and drive up our tvl we've had conversations about that but to me those are the the big things
that i'm thinking about to complete or deliver this year and then head towards what we call ossification.
So you think all those things could be delivered by the end of the year?
Yeah, I'm quite confident with that because I'm doing the rapid swap stuff and I'll be done probably in the next couple of months.
confident with that because I'm doing the rapid swap stuff and I'll be done probably in the next
couple months um Andrew from strange loves working on the two second thing which is largely already
done the v6 router is already done just has to be deployed uh and um audited uh batch outbound
is the code is largely already done and we're just talking with Lookify to get that across the finish line.
Memolus, again, already coded. It just has to get across the finish line. Probably the most
difficult one would be DKLS. The reason why is because the Golang implementation is lacking
blaming on cancellation. So if somebody were to maliciously like kill the
the signing process and cause the signing to fail we wouldn't know that that's the person who who
did who've done who did that uh malicious act we wouldn't know who to slash so we've spoken to the
team behind the golang library to to add that capability and i know it's on their docket and
something they're working towards but we're waiting on them that's probably the only one that's that i would have question about because
not entirely us working on that particular thing but everything else i think we can get that stuff
done within within six months wow that'd be awesome um i know you said then you know hopefully move
towards ossification and i i do understand and appreciate that,
that ossification long-term is a good thing.
But man, I'll be surprised.
I mean this in a good way
because one of the things that keeps me interested in ThorChain
is that constantly being improved and updated and tweaked.
And I'll be shocked if this time you get all this
things done and it's gone for a few months i feel like you guys are going to find new things to
improve and perfect and implement yeah yeah yeah i wouldn't be surprised if you were right about
what you're saying this is just the mentality that i have in this particular moment i think jp is pretty aligned with me in this mentality um i think the stuff that's just really exciting i would presume to
be mostly done on the app layer after that point with perpetuals and other kind of uh fun kind of
a layer of of uh of defy and whatnot um but you never know i'll keep my open mind like in the end like i always
want the the base layer to be you know to be as efficient as possible to achieve the goal that it
needs to achieve to be competitive in the market you know it's like if chain flip were to roll out
some huge new feature that is you know kicking our ass for some reason and maybe we would need
to copy them and and and do that i don't think that's ever happenedip's history. It's more of them copying us than us copying them.
But if they were to come out with something really good,
they want to follow suit, we could.
You mentioned Chainflip.
And I know their competition in the cross-chain space.
But the more I think about it,
I think our real competition is Binance and Coinbase.
And we're seeing some of these wallets like they're they're not just integrating us
to chain flip they're integrating centralized exchanges too um and so like do you like do you
do you look at it that way too chad are you like you know know, we need to do better than Coinbase and Binance, not just do better than Chainflip?
Yeah, I do look at it similar.
It depends on what kind of context we're talking about.
But I've always stated, I think more or less, even from the beginning, that the ultimate goal is that centralized exchanges are a slowly dying thing.
But centralized exchanges are a slowly dying thing.
And DEXs will take over, I think, a majority of trading just because it's so convenient and easy and integrated in so many different wallets and whatnot.
It's a lot less effort.
When you're using a SEX, you have to log in, which is a two-factor authentication.
And you have to click on – go to your email and then click the thing.
And then you have to log in.
And you have to go and click on this portfolio page and then deposit thing. You have to get the address. You have to go to your email and then click the thing and then you have to log in and you have to go click on this portfolio page and then deposit thing you need to
get the address you need to go to your wall you have to transfer you have to wait 70 confirmation
blocks on ethereum or whatever the confirmation numbers then you have something you can trade with
then you go ahead and do your train which also takes about three or four or five clicks or so
then you have to wait another hour then you can deposit and then you can withdraw like it's just
so much it's just a huge pain in the ass to do sex trading,
especially if you're just trying to do a trade and get out.
And it's so much easier and faster and simpler to do it through a Thorchain or some other decks.
So, yes, my mentality is that Thorchain should become the largest exchange in the world,
bar none, including Coinbase or Binance.
That should be the the the
the kind of north star that we're all moving towards and then you can look more on the on
the micro side rather than the macro side and thinking about who competes against us within
the decentralized road and you have maya and you've got you know uh chain flip and i guess
near is a new one now or something like this. There's been rumors of other ones coming downstream.
But in the decentralized sense, I don't think anybody's close to what we're doing in the current moment, at least.
Yeah, I would agree.
Patriot, you got something?
Guys, I think this has been an amazing space.
Thank you for your time, Chad.
I know you're such a busy guy, but it's so nice to hear from you
and give us three hours of your time, man.
It's awesome.
I want to just reset the space
and just go back over where we covered, guys.
I want everyone, please,
remember we said about Slam Bammer.
He is a node operator.
He was a regular community member
who stepped up to take the challenge
of a node operator.
Please, if you have not bonded your rune
or if you are bonding your rune and you would like to bond more,
please consider slinging him some of your bond
because he is exactly the type of caliber of node operator
that we want in this network.
He reminds me a lot of Kenton, both solid guys.
So let's get this amazing individual into the network as often as we can, because, like I said, our node operators are absolute winners.
Man, I don't think I have much else. I think this has been an amazing space.
I think we covered a lot of grounds. I think a lot of information that will make the Rogerans very happy.
And maybe I should stop using that vernacular. I think, honestly, I am a Rujirian now myself. I think we're all the same team because for those who don't know, on the ThorChain side, on the app layer, our boys, Hans and a lot of those devs, they were working on ThorChain code.
They weren't working on their code that was, you know, back in Kujira.
They spent many, many months working very hard and diligently to slot the app layer very nicely into our own protocol.
So those are our devs.
Chad's our dev.
Those boys are our dev.
We're all one big community now.
So I need to do a better job of changing my vernacular to reflect that.
But yeah, Kenton, I don't really have much else.
I think we covered it.
If anyone else has any more ideas of what topics we didn't address,
I think we were pretty comprehensive today.
I think you're right.
I think we should start wrapping it up.
And I do appreciate, Chad, you hanging out this whole time.
Chad, is there anything, any final thoughts you have?
Anything you want to leave us with?
I mean, my kind of leaving thrilling thoughts here is just like it's an overall appreciation to this community of sticking around,
getting through the hard times, helping us get towards the good times.
We're all committed. We're all engaged.
We still believe in the vision.
We still understand the fundamental value this thing provides despite earlier dramas that we had.
And so I appreciate everybody having the balls to stick around.
It said a lot about you. It said a lot about our community.
We are like the cockroach that, even if it's a nuclear bomb, we're still going to be around and still doing what we do.
And that should be one of the more, you know, bullish things about this protocol is it doesn't topple over easily.
Even very difficult things always finds a way forward to keep on doing what it does.
All right.
Here, here.
Great way to end it. Thank you,
Chad. I couldn't have said that better
myself. That is exactly right.
That's why I'm so bullish. Are you guys
bullish out there? I'm so fucking pumped.
I am so bullish about what we're
doing here, guys. This is so exciting.
We totally have got this shit, okay?
We just have to keep executing and keep
doing what you're doing, all right?
As I told you guys earlier um
from the i've been really reaching out to the xrp community um they are super excited about what we
done i had this really naive belief that i was going to go from the xr community and maybe jump
over to solano like no no no no this is so much this takes so much of my time i'm going to stay
with the xrp community and i'm just going to keep proselytizing these guys and and and i've already done great i think getting them to talk about
thor chain and changing their vernacular um and now they understand what thor chain is i just
encourage anyone here please be be an ambassador when we get new chains like to solana or cardano
or whatever the chains are going to come to the tron community i don't care um it really works
guys and now i
have a great relationship with many people i just want our own community to take onus upon themselves
and realize you have agency just like chad does and push this needle forward because we're all
doing this together in real time right we all thor chain survived not because of just one single
individual it's not because kenton it's not because chad boone myself slam bammer or anyone in this we did it together and together we're going to keep pushing the needle
forward so let's fucking go you guys yeah kenton i agree i think that's a good place to leave it
off buddy it's awesome lfg all right on thanks guys we'll talk to you next week
let's fucking go let's fucking go. Let's fucking go. Thank you.
