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Chad's Lounge - Weekly Hangout, Discussion, and Special Guests
Recorded: July 5, 2025 Duration: 2:38:27Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, key players in the ThorChain ecosystem highlighted the merging of Kajira into Rogera, the introduction of innovative trading mechanisms like Intents, and ongoing hiring efforts to bolster growth. The conversation underscored the importance of community engagement and strategic partnerships as essential components for driving adoption and enhancing user experience in the evolving DeFi landscape.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Good morning, good afternoon
anybody hear me hey hands how's it going good thanks and yourself yeah what let's wait for Patriot and make sure his he
can get on here
Patriot sounds. Can you use your mic work?
I see you're up as co-host.
Hey guys. Can you hear me?
I can hear you now.
Yeah, I'm on the RuneBahn account. I am mega bugged on my phone. So I think I'll just talk from here.
It shows me as a co-host, but for me, it shows me as a co-host but for me it shows me as a listener so i don't know okay cool um well uh hands let me know he's only got 30 minutes so
let's let's kick this off really quick here uh maybe just do quick introductions in case we have
new people listening uh my name is kenton ralph toes i've got a fund that invest in Rune runs nodes on Thor chain on Thor chain
Pass it over to you Patriot
Hey guys, I am
Okay, hey guys, I'm an educator for Thor chain and
Love Thor chain. Sorry my thing is all messed up and what a terrible introduction
But you know what let's kick it to code Hans because I'm struggling
Guys yeah, and I found you a kid era back in 2021
And yeah, I'll keep it brief
Kajira now merging
into rogera becoming the applet for chain and I've got a huge amount of time, so I'll keep it brief. Kajira now merging into Rojira,
becoming the applet for ThorChain,
doing all the cool DeFi stuff
that ThorChain's native liquidity will let us do.
Awesome.
So the other day,
Kyle actually posted something about Intent,
said a bunch of questions about them,
and suggested doing a space on them and here we are.
And CodeHands, you actually, you chimed in saying
you've got all kinds of things to say and talk about Intense.
And just to give maybe people a bit more background,
I think SwapKit has now integrated Intense,
near Intents,
and that's being offered or provided as a swap route.
And that's what kind of sparked this conversation.
Like, what are Intents?
What are they doing?
Is this competition for ThorChain?
Is this a new technology, something we have to worry about?
Can we compete with it?
Can ThorChain do Intents?
Hopefully that helps set the stage for this conversation and if you can take it from their
hands um let you rant yeah sure so um i think kind of good context for this is so kajira is a project
launched uh back on terra um and we launched our initial liquidity pool on TerraSwap. And ours was the status quo back then.
You know, it was a standard XYK pool where you would just have all this passive liquidity
sitting there earning fees from swaps, just like you do with blockchain.
And you would, you know, the kind of the status quo at the time was just to pay inflationary
incentives to depositors that would LP their UST at the time and their Coogee.
We had sort of top and in liquidity or something, it was good, but we were paying through the
notes for it.
It just kind of felt fairly insane that it was like, what you were really doing is bridging
the gap between somebody that wants to sell today and somebody wants to buy tomorrow.
And you're providing a pool to become that counterparty and the kind of status quo in traditional financing and across any
other kind of like trading platforms is an order book, right? Where really what you're
doing is just stating an intent. I think intent is just a funny way of packaging this up.
But the point is that um it became an increasingly
frustrating pain point for us it was like why are we paying all this money to maintain such
like a deep liquidity in this in this trading pair um and and sort of like i guess like um
necessity as the mother and i mentioned and the opportunity that we had particularly actually
interestingly with um and this is another a conversation entirely, but this is quite relevant, actually, that the fact that Terra was a Cosmos chain and the fact that it was running Cosmos and the Wasm VM allowed us to create an order book that you cannot do on an EVM chain.
create an order book that you cannot do on an EVM chain.
And the bottom line here was like,
what we're doing by creating an order book is we're creating a system where
somebody can state their intent, right?
That's all an order is, right?
I wish to sell Bitcoin at $115,000 and you post your one Bitcoin and you sit
there and you wait for somebody to come and take it.
You know, if you posted an intent and said, I'm going to,
I want to sell my Bitcoin at $95,000,
you sit there and watch whoever gets the first.
They're the same things.
And so we built the first version of,
well, it was called Fin then, it's now called Rudy Trade.
And it was a very simple intent solver.
It was an order book.
In its purest form, an order book is a list of intents
aggregated into price points.
And then when somebody comes and wants to do a market trade,
across those intents, it solves them.
It says, right, here you are, I've got the best price here.
Here's the second best price. Here's the third best price.
And so the kind of the progression of this now and what Rootera is with Rootera
is bringing to the store chain and the quotes the store chain will be able to offer when
rooted across base layer and app layer liquidity is the ability for people to make those intents
with lots of different parameters, right?
So, you know, you've got a standard order book
which has a fixed price.
We have a different order type,
which is called an Oracle order.
So you can state your intent to say,
I would like to sell my Bitcoin at 1% above
whatever the aggregate price across every single exchange is.
And so if somebody else comes in and says, right, I really want to buy right now, your
intent is basically a floating price order that sits just above the current market price.
And what Rooji Trade becomes now is it becomes the intent solver for all of these different
lanes for fixed price limit orders, foracle orders for uh an xyk
market maker who is basically translating their liquidity into discrete intents which are basically
like which presents in the order book as orders to you know base their liquidity virtualized
liquidity which will which represents in the order book is discrete orders um sorry i'm
i'm kind of rambling right, so maybe we should stop and-
Yeah, great. Thank you, Hans. I want to just kind of ask something to clarify. So,
Intenser basically is an order book. Now-
Intense is like a, it's not a physical thing, right? So in programming, you have,
when you talk about software design in this context,
you have kind of the idea of imperative design
and declarative design, right?
And this is what we're talking about here.
So imperative design is here is,
I have state A and state B and I am at state A
and I want to reach state B.
So therefore I've got to like do this and do that
and do this and do that.
And if it's like, you know, I have a,
for example now, like if I, you know i have um a uh for example now um like if i uh you know state a might be might
might be zero and state b is like i want to have um or state okay state a is like i want bitcoin
state b is like i want um you know 100 000 usdc and the imperative version of that is i have to go
to an order to a uh liquidity, I have to swap it,
I have to execute this message and I'm going to get my tokens back.
The declarative version of it is give me 100,000 USDC for my one BTC.
And intents are just the translation of this kind of imperative model that we have with
most of Krypton Moon into a declarative model where you just state your output and then you
allow something else to solve that and the status quo for current intents is that those solvers are
generally off chain they they're opinionated they're allowed to order the solving um whereas
a rudy trade that is a completely 100 onchain, fair, intent solver.
So there could be MEV with regular intents?
Like people can jump in front of the trade?
Any time you have, so I am yet to see,
and this is, I know, whatever, right,
like we've built this, but I've meant to see a 100 on on
chain whether you call it on order book whether you call it an intense or they're basically the
same thing right like you've got a bunch of people that say i want to settle by xyz at xyz price um
and i'm yet to see one that that claims to have completely fair distribution atomic execution
and completely on chain and as soon as you relax any of those constraints
somebody else has to be an external observer they can see right there's five people here that all
want to sell at 110,000 prices 110,000 who's all the do I feel first and there is some level of
opinionation there so near is they're not fully decentralized. Like there's something happening off chain there.
Like there's some human intervention.
You can still call it decentralized.
Yeah, you can still call it decentralized,
but you cannot guarantee any properties of the execution.
I mean, you can't even guarantee
the execution happening at all.
If the intent solvers are all asleep,
obviously they're not asleep with bots,
but my point being that like, if they, you know if their bots fail or whatever then that you actually
there's no guarantee your um your order's ever going to fill and actually more likely is that
these solvers will prioritize certain orders because of reasons and and you know you look at
the chart in the morning and say hey look i had a buyer for 100 000 and the price dipped to 99.9 but
why wasn't mine filled and it was because the three people that placed their orders after
you got filled first because for whatever reason, maybe there's some kind of off-chain auction for
intent solvers that allows them to prioritize certain intent or whatever, right? But it's just,
it's not a very fair system okay so the order book on
rogero will be vastly superior is what you're trying to do what you're saying yeah so and this
is this is honest it's it gets into the technical weeds a bit but this is what having the wasming
virtual machine as opposed to the ethereum virtual machine allows machine allows us to do.
It's right in the weeds.
The Ethereum virtual machine
doesn't have effective iterators
and you need iterators in order to be able to solve
intents fairly and on chain.
And so, you know, this is the only place we can do it.
Cool.
Patriot, do you have anything to ask or add?
That was pretty comprehensive.
I had a lot of questions.
I didn't understand the difference between regular decks aggregation and intense.
And what is the significant advantage?
But having a system that's immutable and fair, like CodeHan says, I think that's a huge zero to one.
And I am ready to go, guys.
Sorry for the introduction.
You know how X-Bases gonna be so glitchy and horrendous
But I'm just gonna kick it back to Hans if he has anything else you want to say because he's limited on time or if JP wants to
Say something
Nothing particular for me. So yeah fire questions or let's get stuck in. Hey guys
I'm just joining on the invites super excited with what we're building. All last week, we've been hiring, building out our roadmaps,
and just really formulating the next six-month vision.
And we have got something cooking that's going to be truly a sex-like experience
and more, and completely on-chain with secured assets.
I'm going to be 15-plus chain soon.
And the clues will come out over the next few weeks.
But to give you an idea of what we're building,
so obviously, Beruchi Trade is launched.
There's going to be orbital pools.
So not just two pair constant liquidity,
but N pair constant liquidity.
On 4Chain already, I think we've got like
eight different stablecoin flavors,
multiple different F and Bitcoin flavors.
So we can essentially, in our orbital implementation, which I think will be one of the first to
production, there is one on Arbitrum, but it's truly, it's not really a medicine match
until it's deployed upon ThorChain.
That's where, you know, if you've got stable coins from Solana soon, Base, Ethereum, etc.
All coming together, we'll have Noble.uscc soon.
That's really going to come to its own on ThoughtChain.
So super excited about that.
That's just part of the strategies that are going to be backed by the market-making infrastructure that Hans is building up.
We have full steam ahead on Burrowland and an associated stablecoin, which is essentially your debt.
And we've got a really cool way we're doing this.
Essentially, you will have a credit account
where you can load it up with your meme coins your erc20s or whatever your bitcoin and eth and you
can choose which of your collateral you want to meet this debt from and even in the liquidation
order uh so like you know you want to pick off your meme coins and your erc20s first before you
liquidate your valuable btc but that's just a start because Hans and the team are also working on how to plumb that
in to a true margin or essentially like a margin account.
So you can allow other people to provide liquidity on the other side of that bet and essentially
earn yield, single-sided yield, providing liquidity.
So this is going
to be game changing user experience should be literally one click deposit one click borrow
mint debt and on the other side you'll be able to one click deposit and possibly earn yield
um and essentially i don't want to give away two employees maybe hans can take us what he's willing
to share but it will be it'll be nowhere else and no one else is building this yet Essentially like jumping on a hybrid between bitmex and and binance and by bit, but it entirely on change
So that's well underway. We've got an amazing team of engineers Harvey as you know plus one more joining soon
To really kick this off into gear
So yeah, super fun zini any clues you want to give?
No, yeah, I'm very excited though as you know
so hands will um
be just kind of going back to the intense a little bit will ruji trade be uh like will swap kit
support and offer ruji trade and then so when somebody's like on one of the front ends and they go to place a swap and you know how they see Maya and Thor chain and chain flip and there's near,
are they going to see Rooji trade as well? Like how is this going to work?
So, so, so Rooji trade is there to support those quotes,
not to replace those quotes. Um, you will, uh,
the specific technical details are yet to be ironed out.
Currently, there are two entry points now.
So there's the current swap memo.
There is also now a contract execution memo.
And both of those will be able to achieve the same thing.
The contract execution memo
will be able to route your swap
through base and app player liquidity,
depending on what is the optimal path.
And so, you know, we'll work with the swap routing teams like Swapkist
and the others to kind of understand how to read the app player liquidity,
how to construct the right kind of swap routes, all that kind of stuff.
And so, yeah, so it's the whole point is to improve the existing quoting endpoints,
not to try and build something new and replace it because the integration is great. You know,
obviously it's connected across, you know, Ledger and Trust and blah, blah, blah. So it
will be a bad idea to try and replace that. The better thing that we can do is improve
those quotes for thought chain, basically.
Okay, that's half of the reason that I'm not resisting,
is to create this kind of aligned liquidity
that is just kind of adjacent liquidity, rather,
which is this in the end of sorting swaps.
Yeah, the user experience on specifically that
will be instead of doing a base lab memo base swap,
a swap kit can deploy a contract and they can do a bunch of off-chain and on-chain essentially indexing.
And you essentially, what we call swap to exec.
So the memo, instead of being like swap to Bitcoin, blah, it will look like X colon parameters.
And then those parameters can be encoded and blah, blah, blah.
But what will actually happen is your asset will get minted
as a secured asset, deposited into a contract,
and then split over the variety of liquidity sources.
XYK, CL, AppLayer, BaseLayer.
It might even send it out to Maya and back again
to grab some of Maya's liquidity.
And so then at the end of of that everything gets kind of aggregated and pulled back into the
contract you know there might be streaming swaps in there but there might be order limit orders in
there and then the final amount was then aggregated and then sent out as a secured asset withdrawal
all in a single atomic transaction so the swap kits and the like will be building these contracts,
doing the indexing and putting it back on.
So as an example, if you want to do like a 10 Bitcoin swap,
right now you might send five Bitcoin through a streaming swap base layer.
You might send two and a half Bitcoin to snipe this order.
And then you might send, you know, one over to the Consulate Liquidity Pool.
And you might send the last one to Mayer and back again.
And then it all gets aggregated and then redeemed back to your address it sounds complicated but under the hood the user will have no idea
what just happened and then all the money will just arrive in the in the wallet does that make
sense yeah yeah it does so basically what i'm on sam on ledger live and i go to play set 10 bitcoin
swap and i get my quotes all that's going to change for the user for me is that i'm just going to see
hopefully i'll see thor chain at the top of the list providing the best quote i won't care how
it's getting that quote it's all happening in the background underneath the hood doing all
these different trades within the thor chain ecosystem um i don't know what's happening all
i know is i'm getting a great price So nothing will effectively change on the front end.
Well, interestingly, I've noticed that the wallets are now referring to Swapkit's aggregation
as just Swapkit and not blockchain, which is actually on path with the vision.
Blockchain's vision was always to eventually disappear away into just infrastructure that's used by aggregators.
So right now, so ledger,
you'll probably see provider equals swap kit.
And swap kit is the one that's like,
you know, following it all the way through the liquidity sources.
And obviously, 4 Chainz would be
one of the larger liquidity providers for swap kit.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
You're sparking a different conversation in my head, though.
But yeah, keep going.
Awesome.
So that's on the aggregation front and the Intense-based stuff.
And then obviously the general RUJI stuff is tracking really nicely
because it's also more of a broad discussion.
But the whole stack stack like where we
are right now but where we are right now is upgrading the entire state machine the entire
ecosystem you know we've already upgraded the version deployed an app layer two second block
times is like just around the corner we were just waiting for a bit of stability
uh more chains on route eddsa is live in in the next, so you'll start to see EDDSA vaults being created.
And then the next version will activate Solana
and then the subsequent EDDSA janes.
So that's all coming.
We've also due for DKLS.
So DKLS is the giant NPC upgrade.
Basically, we go from order N squared complexity
down to order N.
So instead of like 20 second or two minute
key generation speeds, which typically holds up a churn. So instead of like 20 second or two minute key generation speeds,
which typically holds up a churn.
So every time you see a failed churn, retry churn,
it's because the key gens are timing out
and all the nodes have to recenter.
Because to do a churn,
you need essentially six volts of 20 nodes each
to get a nine round multi-party protocol.
That's nine times 20 in terms of number of communication
complexity, it has to be perfect. And if just a single node fails, the whole thing resets and
we start again. But with TKLS, because there's order and complexity, it's going to be like sub
one second key sign and sub three second keygens. So it's going to massively improve the reliability of the network and scalability.
In fact, theoretically, we can go from one, six volts just down and collapse it down to
a single volt if we wanted to.
So that's coming.
There was one missing piece that we needed to see to match GG20.
That's been shipped by our MPC partner last week.
So expect us to try and get it on Maya protocol or staging it within the next month or
two. And then definitely live on Torchett before the end of the year. And also there's a bunch of
tech debt we need to shed out and continue that. We need to upgrade the router to a stateless
router D6. The reason why I'm so excited about a stateless router. So right now the router of
today stores assets. It's a bit of a silly design decision we made back in 2019.
And we're going to finally move it to a stateless router,
where instead of this router holding assets,
it's actually going to send the assets into the vaults.
And this is important because keeping all the ESF20 in a router
makes a bit of a target because it doesn't really churn,
if you know what I mean, like the USCC and USCCs
just stay there.
But a stateless router will mean that the tokens are all kept on the vaults, not the
router.
So it just means there's way more kind of like mixing and churning and other good stuff
about that.
So it makes it those assets, which are not censorship resistant, less of a target.
Two, it allows the router to be upgraded
immediately literally in a single block there's no like migration anymore and three it will enable
memelist the s220 deposits so if you had to deposit uscc or usbp directly into a vault
and trigger and memelist path and the memelist is is also high on my my kind of like wish list
before the end of the year.
And I'm communicating this with Nine Realms, obviously.
MemoLess, there's two pathways to MemoLess.
One is an amount registration.
So you basically, like an aggregator or a quota
will register your memo and retrieve back a four or five digit code.
And that four or five digit code needs to be essentially the least
significant digits on your deposit so if a bitcoin is like the last five digits of satoshis which
they're really like a nothing amount anyway um or we actually have an ability to do an address
registration so you you register your from address for hd bitcoin wallet um because often like if you jump on ledger live
if you request your address it's actually going to generate the next address in your
hierarchical deterministic path so you're currently at index three so when you click
receive it generates index four which is a different address from where your bitcoin's
currently sitting so for for bitcoin we'll we'll support both from and change address registration, and that will get picked up.
In any case, you'll have two options for Metalist.
One is you can send a specific amount, or two is you can send a specific from address.
And like I keep saying, the only briefing attack is if someone goes out and registers everyone's addresses that they're aware of,
then they basically lock up those addresses can't be used for 24 hours because you're going to get a quote and it'll
say address already registered.
It will expire 24 hours later.
There is a small briefing attack where someone can snipe your address.
You will know because when you go request quote, someone will pay the SWOT kit or someone
will pay the .02 ruin or whatever is to register your address.
And your quote will come back from you and you'll see the actual memo that you're registering or the swap intent.
So before you click send and you pay your money into that QR code, just triple check that the swap intent is what is matching your specifications.
And everyone should be doing this anyway.
And if it is, then away we go.
So I think Memelis is such an easy kill.
And Kenton, you're always going on about, you know, it's all chance you run a low fee
I actually think this is a good candidate for that.
That once they ship both the amount registration and the address registration, Memelis methods,
the treasury should run a low-fee UI
and it's literally just, should just
pay for bringing users
because these users are not anyone
else's users, right? You go to this
UI because you're, you
want to use any wallet under the sun, right?
You're not a store wallet user, you're not a leisure
user, you're just a
user somewhere in the world. So
that's definitely a good candidate to
do that yeah i'm i'm really hot on that because i i appreciate the idea and vision of doorchain being
infrastructure behind the scenes you don't know you don't see but at the same time i don't see
why can't it be both like why can't we have that invisible infrastructure part of the market
and our own front end?
Like, to me, it doesn't have to be either or.
It can be both, you know, and it doesn't hurt us.
It just, you know, it helps us.
So, yeah, and we can be more a bit, you know,
we can be a bit more in control of our own destiny, too,
by promoting it and marketing it. And, you know, how be a bit more in control of our own destiny too by promoting it
and marketing it and you know how many times have you been on twitter and we've all done it oh you
should use store chain use store chain you know it's like well it's a pretty nebulous thing to say
because it how do you use store chain you know it takes like six steps to figure it out after that
you know instead you can just say use this website and that by default is using torchain so
and if memola swaps is the easy way to do it then great let's do it yeah 100 it could be the the
identical user experience if you jump on change now now or change yelling like all you do is
specify your swap intent you click next spits out a a QR code and address it about, and then away you go.
And then, you know, sometime later you hopefully get your money back.
So this UI is very simple.
It's just like some kind of small backend that is attached to a Ruin wallet, wait, registering memos.
It does need a capture because you don't want to be like completely dosed by bots
there you there will be a capture somewhere along that user journey but ultimately it's just it
will just be a qr code and and or a specific amount to send and uh so yeah super excited about that
and maybe just to help remind people too like the problem with the way the regular sites like for
people too like the problem with the way the regular sites like for for thor swap for example
um they have to support all these different wallets and that's like the bulk of the work
on creating that website is supporting all those wallets with mem with memo lists transactions you
can have a website that you don't you don't you don't connect the wallet so you don't have all
that burden that headache all that burden, that headache,
all that developer time to support all these different wallets.
In essence, every wallet is supported with Memolist.
Is that right, Jeff?
Yeah, true.
And you could even have literally dogeswap.com
or bitcoincashswap.com or Litecoinswap.com.
You could SEO the crap out of it.
So when someone's saying how to swap my lightcoin,
you SEO it and intercept them and send them over
to just a lightcoin-looking memberless website
where it's like, oh, you want to swap your lightcoin
to USCC, boom, two steps, you're done, right?
And it's as simple as that.
And I've told NineRoms this.
It's such an easy feature.
It's like ridiculously easy.
All you got to do is it's a new deposit handler where
you just register a memo, spit out a code, and
lock in a channel for 24 hours, and you're done. It's like less than 100 lines
of code. It's going to ship tomorrow. And it's not just
doge.swap or lycone.swap. I could use kenton.swap.
I could set up my own website
right if it's if the if the lift of creating this website is really light um this opens the door for
you know influencers to create their own sites and tack on their own fee right yeah 100 you could
have um the nested affiliates so that uh you know the the base bulk ui is earning one bips or whatever
and the affiliate is earning like i don't't know, five or ten bips.
So then everyone's like shilling the swap websites
and where you go.
You can even have a little Docker Compose
and you can one-click deploy it on your DigitalOcean
and then there could be a million swap websites
and we're just fucking, you know,
DOS the fuck out of it, you know?
So the thing with Memolist transactions
isn't just for a Thor chain only front end,
it is still to enable that background infrastructure play
where there could be a thousand different front ends
of using Memolist transactions
all with their own branding.
So Memolist transactions does still help facilitate that in the background infrastructure play too.
Yeah, on a set.
So, Code Hans said he had only 30 minutes. We're at the 30 minute mark.
You were, you were giggling at one point, Code Hans, thinking about how awesome it's going to be.
Are you able to shed any time frame roughly at all?
Or are you feeling optimistic it's going to be a good execution?
I know that's a hard question, but go for it.
Yeah, I mean, things are moving fairly quickly now.
There was a lot of kind of foundational pieces,
not just on the Thornode side with Cosmasm and the actual app
that we've seen there, But as far as actually delivering
the apps and boring shit like middleware and APIs and wallet signers, all that kind of
stuff. But that's all in place now. And yeah, as Jeffrey said, we brought in a couple of
really good new Cosmasm devs. There's more guys joining the team to help out with with different parts of the stack so things are things are moving quickly um we've got a really strong kind of
holistic architecture for how this whole thing works together um so yeah like no no timelines
uh as ever but but hopefully soon and i yeah i'm i'm incredibly excited incredibly excited. There's gonna be some very cool things.
I mean, like just, so with the lending plus stablecoin,
the one thing that is very exciting
is that we'll be able to spit out
and a phenotype stablecoin out of the box.
And that'll just be one kind of way of delivering
the borrow lens, perps, blah, blah, blah products,
like as a kind of unified aggregate experience.
But yeah.
Hans, are there some things that are actually
technically live and you're just kind of playing with it?
You just haven't really promoted it.
But if somebody is really savvy
and they want to go start tinkering around
with anything within the Rogera suite, can
they do that? Or is everything still closed off?
Yeah. So the trading pairs for the migrated assets are live. We, especially this week,
but there's been various things that bumped it. Very soon we'll be shipping the trading
pairs for all the
base layer assets uh all the big ones at least big ones paired with usdc then all the kind of like
isomorphic assets all the all the pegged assets you know usdcs new stts and rapid point cbpc blah
blah blah um but the the the thing that's holding that up slightly is that uh market orders as as
people are kind of familiar with them just kind of you know buying or selling into the book
would wouldn't be a good trade because the actual atomic book there doesn't
have massive liquidity we're virtualizing the base of their liquidity and so we're
kind of reimagining what it should look like in order to what it should it like
to trade on a on a pair like this like because actually
you know you don't care if you're sending a using a market or a limit or an oracle order you care
about how fast my trade is going to be executed what price is going to execute to that um all of
which we can kind of provide some guarantees for and so we're kind of reimagining a whole order
management order placement interface to to make that trading experience for these base pair pairs but
when you're trading secured assets on the app layer, it could be really nice. So that's
coming very very soon. Those pairs should be deployed in the next few days and then the UI.
I want to get the UI up first, so people don't start wrecking themselves. But yeah, so that's
that'll be the next thing and then most of the stuff gets deployed to Stagenet first,
which is obviously a live environment with real money.
Lending's live on Stagenet.
Maybe we can start shipping some of that
to the UI's,
we can start to post things to a lending market.
Just to play around with that, I guess.
Yeah, there's a lot going on so what will
be available to trade just the gas tokens like on like just just the nine
different chains gas tokens or will you be able to do any ERC 20 if you go to
a redone network now and look go to spot trading
uh you'll see all the pairs that are due to be launched in preview mode
okay uh do you have an idea how many like what the numbers is it a few hundred
i think there's a couple 20 i think you know we've got all like everything all the major gas
tokens plus kind of the major erc20s on those chains uh are paired with usdce um they we also
then have every other flavor of usdc paired with usdc uh plus die plus uh and actually there's some
new uh bfc pools that go live in the last couple days so we'll be adding them as well okay gotcha
so will ruji trade be able to tap in a deck segregation? Or no, just whatever's on Ruji Trade, that's just what's available.
Yeah, Ruji Trade is responsible for kind of secured assets, which are the ones that have base levels.
Yeah, okay, gotcha. Patriot, you have anything you want to ask Lance?
Well, you know, there's so much going on, you guys.
How could I possibly ask a question that can cancelate all that stuff?
I just want to say, because I know your time is limited, man,
I just want to thank you for all your hard work,
because I know it was a slog to get to this point.
And, you know, you were working on Thorchain architecture.
You weren't even working on the stuff that you built.
And you and your team had to slot this all in.
And I got to say, this is probably one of the greatest
power ups we've ever seen ever in the history
of our ecosystem.
And I am just so excited to see this deliver.
And I know you're drawing a lot of personal satisfaction
from this.
So I just hope you take the moment to appreciate this dude
and you just enjoy the hell out of this moment
because you earned it.
And so did all the Regerians and Thorchads out there
earned it.
So just thank you so much, man.
I'm just so grateful right now i appreciate that thank you yeah it's um you know power up for
you guys uh power up for like is a power up for the kidder and what we built you know we were
struggling with with the the connections the layer ones and the liquidity and this is just
you know it's it's it's kind of relit something for me and and we have an opportunity now to build
build that thing build that decentralized
finance that decentralized exchange experience that that is everyone's been promising for
for years now and these actually i expect the time to deliver it right like think about how long
every time i i i dig into a new part of the call chain stack i'm just like i'm i'm blown away by
the the amount of right thought and the complexity of it
and the way it's that complexity is then taken away from you. And you can't just like, you can't,
you can't spin up a new layer one and say, Hey, we're going to be a decentralized finance because
we have this one clever piece of technology. Cause that's not, that's not how it works, right? It
works because you have years and years and years of experience and blood, sweat and tears that boil down into a stack.
And I see that every time I say, every time I open the door and into a new bit of the code base, you see it there.
And this is, I feel like this is now that moment, right?
This all kind of comes together and we have that opportunity to actually build that, to build that.
Awesome. and we have that opportunity to actually build that to build that awesome for years and years and years people would ask me just like what are you guys doing where the devs doing you know and
I'd be like they're working really hard you guys you don't understand how complicated this is and
I'm so glad you said that so it just gives an impression everyone listening and maybe who's
listening to this recording like to do this is really, really complex. But finally, after all this time, all the nuances, all the niggles in the code,
as you say, Code Hans, all the bugs, all the weird edge cases, you know, we're finally
at the point where we got it. We got a strong foundation and now we're ready just to launch.
So I am so glad you said that because it gives good perspective because a lot of people,
they just see update after update and they don't notice a lot of changes.
But what's really happening is core, incredibly powerful, fundamental improvements of the protocol are happening underneath.
So awesome stuff, man.
That's it. Cool. Thanks for having me, guys.
Thank you, Hans. Yeah. Awesome. We'll do this again sometime.
We will. We will. See you, guys.
Bye, brother. Well, how can you be bullish after that you guys or how you can be bearish excuse me for that that was
incredible damn how exciting um you know i just i think one thing for me is i just gotta try to be
humble because i don't understand there is so much he said right there there's a lot of things i don't
understand fully like i understand superficially what's going on, but I'm just going to have to take a slice of humble pie. Um, that's
why we got to keep doing these spaces guys, because you guys are going to have a vision
of what's possible. I might not be there yet. So we just got to keep talking this thing through.
Um, and just let us know what you need from people like myself who understand Thor chain
much better than Ruggiero. Um, this is going to be a growing thing for both of us. So let's just
work together and keep this positive environment going guys i'm very excited to see where this goes it'll be
easier once it's live i think well for me anyway once it's live we'll play with it and tinker
around and then i think it'll definitely sink in make more sense be easier to grasp um so yeah but So yeah, but it is cool.
I brought up, is it Serosa?
Sorry, I forget who I just added as a speaker.
Seroshi, Seroshi.
Seroshi, yeah.
Go ahead and test your mic, man.
Yeah.
And sorry if you're hoping to chat with JP or hands,
but it looks like JP's gone too.
Hands had to leave.
Seroshi. Your mic's not working man
uh you want to try again I will go to Eric if uh you're having troubles there we'll try it we'll
swing back to you yeah go ahead Eric hey guys uh is my uh yep sound okay because sometimes it
glitches yeah uh yeah so uh So, Hank, and so,
so you were mentioning something very,
very interesting,
and I think that it's worth discussing it a little bit.
Meanwhile,
Sorashi tests his microphone,
but I'm going to say something that probably some of the front ends are
thinking when they heard what,
what you said.
So having a dedicated thor chain front end
sounds incredibly good for thor chain as as the base layer as you know thinking as a rune holder
how can we maximize the ease of use of getting into the whole ecosystem because like you said it needs like six clicks and
understanding all of the layers to actually get things done and and to be told front ends uh
still with we still need to get uh the user experience to a level where anyone with a little
with with the the fewest uh the smallest knowledge about ThorChain,
they can do things in the ecosystem.
But at the same time, I'm going to say something
that probably they are all thinking.
If they have to compete with ThorChain without affiliate fees,
it's going to become very hard
because also they don't have a lot of marketing budget.
And for example, Mocha is not going to depend.
We actually do not depend on affiliate fees on the front end.
Our business model depends on something completely different.
So it wouldn't really affect us if there's a dedicated ThorChain front end.
But it sounds to me like if ThorChain comes up with this,
but it sounds to me like if fortune comes up with this it might be competing with all of
the interfaces that actually help thor chain go go wide so i can i can address that yeah literally
every other exchange that these front ends have integrated have their own interface
integrated have their own interface.
Thorchain is the exception, is the only one that does not.
So why are these other frontends have integrated all these other exchanges
that have their own frontends if it's such a problem?
They started with their own frontend and then other interfaces
who were agnostic integrated that for, let's say, for example,
MyoProtocol. They have their own frontend, right? other interfaces who were agnostic integrated that for let's say for example my protocol
they have their own front end right they started like this and then others adopted it or was it
the other way around because it sounds to me like for 14 it would be the other way around like hey
everyone has this and we already have like 12 wallet integrations we have 15 front ends so let's let's cook our own front end and and
have this marketing budget and you know it kind of feels like if there hasn't been one
since the beginning and it wasn't ThorChain's approach right now it would be like some sort of
of play to see how how it can grab volume,
and how it could be seen, the perception.
And like you said, it doesn't affect MoCA.
I understand perception.
It's all people's feelings.
So I feel pretty strongly about this.
Basically, cry me a river.
It's competition.
This is how free markets work.
Are we crying? is these front ends
they're allowed to integrate other exchanges and route the trades elsewhere and we're supposed to
like you know be okay like be and oh yeah it's great it's awesome a competition free market
yet when we want to compete oh no whoa you can't do that. How are they going to feel about that?
To be frank, they shouldn't feel anything.
They shouldn't care because the front end
has their own audience.
So it's not ThorChain's audience.
It's Trustwall's audience.
It's Ledger's audience.
If ThorChain has its own front end,
it's going to develop its own audience.
Sure, okay, fine.
Maybe some people come from Trust and Ledger and come use this front end.
That might happen.
But to think that all of the users are going to leave all the different front ends and only go to ThorChain is actually ridiculous.
And we have real world test case for
this. Remember when, you know, in the first few years of ThorChain's life, AsgardX and ThorSwap,
I think AsgardX was charging like 10 bps. ThorSwap was 30. Then came out TrustWallet. They're
charging 70 bps. Everyone's freaking freaking out why is anybody use why is people
using trust wallet when asgardx is only you know 10 basis points trust wallet is 70 basis points
all this volume is on trust wallet and they're paying 70 basis points it doesn't make any sense
because it's trustwell's audience um it's separate from asgardx audience like the
people aren't running around looking for the cheapest price.
That just isn't how markets work.
And this exists beyond crypto as well.
Like look at like designer luxury goods, you know, Gucci bags and stuff.
Like people go to coach in these expensive stores.
They're paying thousands of dollars for the experience, for their brand.
Where they can go get the same bag at the trunk of someone's car in an alley in China
for like 50 bucks.
Why don't they go to that alley and buy that bag out of the car for 50 bucks?
Like that's not the experience they're looking for.
It's the exact same bag, but they're two totally different markets.
And so it's the exact same thing
with Torchain having its own front end.
It's not like there's this fixed number of users
and we're all scraping, clawing for that piece of the pie.
The pie keeps growing.
So like Trustwell can have its own users,
Ledger, Thorswap, Mocha,
you guys can all have the same users.
ThorChain can spit up its own front end
and can very likely get like, you know,
X amount of brand new users without taking any from anywhere else.
And if people are leaving front ends that come to ThorChain,
well, that forces other front ends to compete.
And then they can lower their fees and whatever.
So instead of ThorChain being forced on a race to the bottom on its swap fees, the front ends can be forced to lower their affiliate fees, their commissions.
And then we're much more on equal footing.
But where's that right now?
This is not good for thor chain
if we have to race to the bottom like like you know dilly you know uh split hairs between five
basis points and six basis points you know eight basis points on the debate right now like this is
not a good business you guys it is a bad business and you know you want you know institutional money
and big money to come invest and ruin and Thorchain.
I'm telling you, you see that and you're like, this is not a good business.
This is a bad one.
We have to have some pricing power.
And the best way we can do that is with our own front end.
And if we do suck users from us, we're fine.
What's better um having a hundred thousand users split over a few dozen front ends or having a million users just
on a third chain front end and like the the argument against that third chain front end
is that you know regulatory capture you know what if it gets shut down? I'm sure we can find somebody who's at an arm's
length to Torchain, not a node operator, not Nine Realms to run the site. I don't think it's that
crazy or hard. So long rant there, Eric, but I'll just rephrase, cry me a river. Like, I think the big front ends are the ones,
I don't think they would care, to be honest.
Yeah, and it does make sense.
And for what it's worth, I'm just playing devil's advocate here
and trying to spike the conversation
because I know that it's something that plenty of people
are interested in hearing about it.
And here's the thing.
While I agree with you with the free market and how it's all about growing the pie,
we have to ask ourselves, does ThorChain look at the frontends as partners,
as competition, as members of the market trying to grow ThorChain?
Because I see a lot of
front ends who are pretty vocal about hey we're only able to do this and to offer these to our
users thanks to forging there's a lot of marketing there to thorching through these third parties
and when you like if you antagonize something like maybe this is not the word, but, you know, English is my language.
So if you antagonize the friends by competing directly with them, are they going to keep as excited as ThorChain as they are?
Or they might, I don't know, integrate all of this.
Yeah, let me walk you through the logic in your statement.
So that's like saying, well, trust wallet integrated door chain.
We can't let Ledger integrate door chain because that might piss off trust wallet.
That's not fair to trust wallet because Ledger might take users from trust wallet.
So don't Ledger integrate door chain.
Right.
It's the exact same thing.
It doesn't matter who is running the front end. They're
all competing with each other. Right? And really, at the end of the day, what these front ends want,
they just want the cheapest route. That's all they're doing. They're just looking, you know,
that's all they're going to provide for the users. And you talk about a partnership. Yeah,
okay, sure. It's a partnership, but it's not an exclusive one. Like, you know, like, you know, when you get married, that's an exclusive relationship. You're not going to go sleep with other people. We don't have exclusive relationships with with these front ends because they're sleeping with other people. Right.
So it's like, imagine if you're in a relationship with a chick, she can go sleep with other guys, but you can't sleep with other girls.
Like, come on, man.
Like, how cucked is that?
So it's either you both get the freedom or you both don't.
So if a friend had said had an exclusive relationship with Thor Chain, was Thor Chain only, and they said, well, hey, guys, then I would agree with you i'd be okay well maybe
right you know we have a handshake deal to give somebody exclusivity to thor chain
we're not going to go have our own door chain only front end then i might agree with you but as long
as these front ends are more than happy to route trades to other exchanges game on we should have
our own front end it can and i i genuinely don't believe it's competing with them.
But we should have our own and be able to promote that
and drive our own track to it instead of driving traffic
to another front end who may or may not
swap the route through ThorChain.
So we do all this work and effort to get thor chain out there and tell tell people
what friends to use it so that they might have the trade go through thor chain like it's ridiculous
can i uh jump in a little bit here because let's let's break down the competition angle a little
bit here so guys i'm speaking from the rune bond account so please click on it and follow the rune
bond account because we have a lot of great ideas coming. But RuneBond is a great candidate for this memelist transaction feature,
right? Because when you have a site, we're providing a service. We're trying to make
new entrants into the ecosystem, be able to bond to nodes in a very intuitive and efficient manner.
Well, we need to make money somehow, right? So when we say competition, let's just juxtapose like a SwapKid or Dorito
Swap or whatever, whatever they are, Rango. They have much more swap routes because of
DEX aggregation. So the competition war doesn't really fit because if we have a ThorChain
specific interface, we're doing things that only can happen on ThorChain. If someone needs an asset,
you know, pick up, you know, Arbitrum or whatever, you know, Zcash, you know, that route will be
facilitated by an interface that supports that route via DEX aggregation. And that's a unique
advantage that they have over ThorChain that we can't compete with, or the ThorChain interface,
I should say. So I don't really see a problem with this either, compete with, or the Thorchain interface, I should say.
So I don't really see a problem with this either. And at the point at which if someone integrates Thorchain and if we lose swap volume to a competitor, especially over something,
and this is being worked on, I don't want to throw shade on anyone. This is a hard thing to fix,
but especially for losing volume to dodgy optimistic quoting parameters,
right? That sucks. That sucks. If we're losing volume to a competitor because we are too honest,
or we're trying to be as honest as possible, that's a problem. And again, no shade to anyone.
This is a very hard problem to solve. I've talked to numerous people about it,
but there are many reasons why I think a ThorChain specific interface can happen.
And if we just think it's just ThorChain wanting to compete with everyone on that level,
I think that's just too simplistic of an argument to make,
especially when I said there's utility where other interfaces can swap up,
like RuneBond, where we can monetize this,
and then we can provide a good service,
like on-ramping new people to bond their Rune.
I'll stop there.
No, that was good.
Sorry, guys.
I know I'm getting a bit worked up, emotional.
And Eric, I probably cut you off, which isn't fair.
But I just want to add one thing to what Petra is saying.
If we're losing the trade route to another exchange because we're not the cheapest, how do we get the cheapest?
Well, instead of a race to the bottom on our fees,
we improve liquidity on ThorChain, right?
And so a great way to do that, we have our own front end.
That gets the volume up, gets the fees up.
That improves liquidity on ThorChain.
That will then make trade execution cheaper, more efficient on door chain, which will
boost us and get us up there up more naturally on the preferred routes in our other front ends,
these other interfaces. And don't kid yourself, these other interfaces, they want door chain
because it's the only way to trade Bitcoin and crypto in size. We all know this.
So it's not like they're going to arbitrarily turn off ThorChain because their feelings are hurt.
That would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
So in theory, in essence, the best thing we can do for these other front ends
is to increase volume on ThorChain to give their users the cheapest quotes
that they can offer give their users the cheapest quotes
that they can offer to their users. So yeah, so it requires much more bigger picture thinking.
It's not just a simple first order or thought,
like you gotta go three or four orders into it.
But Eric, I have to apologize.
I probably cut you off when you were talking
because I was getting animated. Did you, was there more that you wanted to say no no it's fine no and i think that
it's it's good to have these kind of conversations here because the people who are listening who
might have the same arguments for or against having torture their own running because you know we hold
brune and most well not, not most, a big
chunk of the Rune holders also hold some cacao.
And then you have other aggregators and other integrators and, you know, people have their
own, you could call them teams.
And then you're saying, okay, maybe I have TGT, but I also have Rune.
I want Rune to succeed, but maybe I also hold Fox from Chasechip. So you want to have this conversation so that when arguments arise
and maybe we go through with having the third chain front end,
it's already been discussed.
It doesn't feel like it was something that was just spawned
because a couple of people wanted it.
So, I mean, forgive me for playing devil's advocate,
but, you know, I think that going very deep into this,
it's the only way that when it happens, if it happens,
there's not a lot of public uneasiness.
Yeah, well, I kind of agree. But i guess the main thing is you know if somebody's
worried about competition all they're doing is uh telling you how insecure they are about their
own product um you know if somebody has a really solid product they should be happy about competition
because they know the competition can't beat them.
And it just elevates their own product further.
You know, it's, yeah, that's one thing, you know, I always give kudos to JP about,
he's always promoted ThorChain and be like, you know, fork it, do it, it's open source.
You can do better, go for it.
And nobody has because nobody can, you know, and it's really source you can do better go for it and and nobody has because nobody can you know and it's really elevated thor chain um so yeah i've been i'm sure a front end could get offended
or get buttered but but again i just go back to look at what already exists every other
exchange that these front ends have integrated, they have their own unique interface
too. Go on Trust Wallet, go place a swap. They're starting to route through Rango Exchange now.
Rango has their own front end, their own website. Go on Ledger. You don't even have to connect your
Ledger to Ledger Live. Just open Ledger Live. Just enter and go to swap, put in five Bitcoin for
ETH or whatever. just do some random things.
See all the exchanges that come up.
All those exchanges have their own front ends.
The idea that ThorChain has its own front ends is all of a sudden going to make the world implode
and one divided by zero and everything's going to stop is absolutely ridiculous.
stop is absolutely ridiculous. I don't understand why so many people think it's such a big deal.
I'll add a little to what you're saying, Kenton. I think one thing that's underappreciated,
this is what you said in your first statement, Kenton, is the growth of the pie itself.
first statement, Kenton, is the growth of the pie itself, right? People coming on into this
ecosystem, they're going to be in the hundreds of millions, eventually billions, right? They're
not going to understand anything. And especially, you know, where this industry is going, there's
going to be more different change, more ecosystems. They're not going to understand ThorChain. They're
not going to understand that ThorChain has its own interface right off the bat. So many people
are going to start with TrustWallet or they're going to start with Mocha for the first time using cross-chain liquidity to buy goods and services.
Right, Eric?
And so they're going to start from a position of extreme ignorance.
This should not, I think, make anyone at all worried at all.
And every single interface, regardless if you have dex aggregation, you promote one problem, you're all going to do extremely well because again, this industry is so fricking small. It is tiny. It is tiny where
we're at right now. I mean, just the swap volume we have to capture for sexes alone right now.
If no one else entered this ecosystem, we had zero new on trends for 10 years. We would still
have such amazing growth potential from siphoning away that swap volume alone. So yeah, I'm on Kenton's side on this one. I
don't think that the fear is there. With the Coke, I see your hand up, but I just want
to kick it to Kenton real quick.
Yeah, sorry with the Coke. I'm on a roll. I'm ranting here. I got more to add. Yeah.
So just going back to fees, right? Trust wallet is 70 basis points. I think ledger is like 140.
ThorSwap I think is now 50 basis points.
Asgard access 30 basis points.
You know, and if you look at all the other front ends,
you know, everyone's all probably somewhere in the middle,
right?
It's the idea that the consumer just goes
for the lowest price.
Whoever is saying that out loud,
this has no idea about economics,
doesn't understand markets at all. There's all different price points. And all those price
points are for the relationship, right? People have a relationship with Trust Wallet. That's
why they're willing, they're happy to pay it. People have a relationship with Ledger. That's
why they're happy to pay it. And so if you're a new front end, you're going to go out, you're
going to get customers, get users, the relationship is going to be with you, that front end, right? And not with ThorChain, right? And mean they're going to go around you to Thorchain? So, for example, you know, you go to a restaurant and it's, you know, they have the ranch where the steak, the cow, the beef is from.
Like, do you think the person is going to get up out of the table, walk out the door, go drive to that ranch and go buy the cow and, you know, buy the steak and go cook it at home?
Like, no, they're like, that's that doesn't happen.
Somebody might, you know, that the odd person is's really motivated might eat that steak at the restaurant.
I'm like, man, this is good meat.
I'm going to go to that ranch and get some myself.
Like, yeah, that might happen.
But that's just not how markets work.
And so going back to, we're talking about memo-less transactions would be an easy way to spin up a ThorChain front end.
There's going to be people who don't want to do a memeless transaction.
They don't want to learn anything new.
I've got my ledger.
I understand how it works.
I can do clear signing on Ledger Live.
I'm comfortable with that.
I don't want to learn anything new.
I'm done.
Those just stick with ledger.
Same with people in TrustWallet.
People in Mocha and whatever,
people get used to their ways, right?
And they get stuck in their groove.
They don't want to change.
And, you know, they understand how it works.
It's easy. It's comfortable, right?
So that'd be my only, like, personally for me,
if I'm, like, you know, the memoless transaction thing.
It's like we have to teach somebody how to new, right? You know, how to do things a new way. Like that is a hurdle to overcome,
but that'll create its own audience that people do want to learn that. And maybe they are new to
crypto and that's the first way they'll learn it. And that's the only way they use it going forward.
But that's going to be its own audience, right? People willing to use memeless transactions versus using their wallet.
So it's not like everyone's going to automatically stop using all of their wallets and go straight to memeless transactions.
That just, it's not going to happen.
It's kind of like us, our bet on ThorChain.
Is everybody stopping using Binance and Coinbase and now trading on ThorChain?
Like ThorChain is better, right?
You know, why aren't they doing that?
Because they're used to Coinbase and Binance.
Like they're just comfortable there.
Like the real growth in ThorChain is basically their first user experience
using ThorChain and whatever interface they're using.
So, you know, it's really hard to steal users from other platforms
because that platform has a relationship so um yeah again i go
back to if anyone's worried about competition is because they're really insecure about their
relationship with their users or insecure with the product they're giving their users
and and that's a reflection on them not working uh so i'll stop there let you go with the coke yeah hey I hope you can
hear me so yeah you kind I mean in your camp campin as well and you kind of with
coffee there I can hear him I can hear him he's speaking okay
and you speak guys I know I'm ranting I'm getting worked up you're fine hey if everyone in the audience can hear you buddy I see your mute is off
oh can you hear me Kenton I can hear you Patriot can you hear me I can hear you I
think Kenton kind of just one second I'm to tell him on Telegram.
Can you guys hear me?
Yes.
I guess Kenton got so wrapped up.
If someone in the audience, maybe you can...
Okay, give us a thumbs up.
I can't hear anyone else we got dead silence on the
radio this isn't good guys anybody else you know I just want to come up and speak
okay god dang it X spaces suck ass you know that guys let's just be real x spaces wait guys
text me in the telegram good chat maybe i can't hear you but you can hear me god i hate x spaces
it's such a fucking bummer uh with the coke held your thought once captain figures it out
will continue yep i'm still here no No worries, no worries.
So that's a perfect example. If X doesn't get the shit together, competition will leave.
Or they have the majority of the mindshare and the competition will stick.
It's exactly, we have to adapt.
I mean, what I want to say that Kenton kind of mentioned a lot,
what I had in mind as well,
you cannot be insecure in your business or the services that you provide for your customer. For example, if you're a ledger, you provide your hardware wallets.
There's no good for integration for ledger if they will just switch to the, I don't know,
integration for Ledger, if they will just switch to the backup, all the seeds and stuff.
back up all the seats and stuff.
They almost kind of amputated one hand of their business already,
kind of just add a little drip of seed there in the brains of users that,
okay, is my seed clear or not? Is it safe or not?
Every business has to be evolving through years through changes and everything.
Same with Mocha.
Mocha is coming on the crypto field, providing some different type of perspective
when becoming a crypto vendor and stuff.
So I think if you have a business plan that we got up with the mocha and
our main business is that we can use thought chain then you should scrap your business plan
right away and go back because the main business should be mocha and the the added value is thought
chain in the back end and same with ledger the main business is the hardware wallet maybe the
customer support the all the use cases that Ledger provides for the Ledger Live.
And there is added benefit of the ThorChain.
And with ThorChain as well, like you, Patriot, you mentioned, we have some people, some companies doing really optimistic quoting.
Also, we don't cry when the near comes, gets integrated into the swap kit.
They have like maybe some offline resolvers or whatever.
And all this is competition actually for ThorChain as well.
So we as ThorChain users or like developers, JP cannot sit on his hands at all.
He has to think every day like, okay,, what's, how is the industry involving?
What's the next steps?
How can we be better?
And yeah, I think it's, it's a competition both ways.
Integrators, aggregators, they will, for some reason, they want to have like a decentralized
aggregation, but then it's still use like resolvers that's, that is not 100% safe and on-chain.
And yeah, we will deal with that.
We have our Rujira coming, and they will try to get goats better,
as goat hunts mentioned before.
So I think, yeah, I'm down with Kenton, Crimea River.
Yeah, I think think you know and
best of this time this is such a unique period right because thor chain is just approaching
adolescence here like i think it's still thor chain kind of is like a teenager okay um when
we were in chaos net we were a baby learning how to crawl and you know feed ourselves and
you know potty train all that stuff we're a teenager right now. There will become a point
where the volume is so good that, yeah, we will kind of slot in the background, but we're still
in that intermediary phase with Rogera kit coming on, more swap volume, more integrations. I think
this is just going to be a natural evolution of time. So people who are at interfaces right now,
if I had any advice to you whatsoever is don't be
pessimistic don't be optimistic just put your nose to the grindstone and ship code and make the best
product you can you will do well if you manage to do that um eight okay we got another speaker a
atari axia atari axia um yeah okay my friend and i really support uh torsion has its own website but
you need to keep the low feed with the affiliate because torsion has no real customers yet it has
the the other wallets like trust wallet or whatever you want to say, but you need to offer in the Torchshen website a high fee.
Like if Trust Wallet just keep like 1% of each fee,
if it's swapped, you can do the same.
You cannot offer the same swap or less
because you will lose the customer.
You will lose the the customer you will lose trust wallet maybe you
will gain a customers and individual customers but they have the the volume right now you need to keep
the wallets and also you need to grow your user base okay that's that's that's one point that's how airlines works by the way they they use the
agency for uh they give a discount to the agency so they can sell the the tickets but they offer
directly to the passenger and high rate and that, you get the best of the two words.
You can get access to the, sorry,
my English is not too well,
but I think I can explain my point with that.
Another question.
Why, oh, why is 50 50 the relationship with rogera and rune
i can understand that because room has right now for
like 426 million tokens I think so and Rugira will have like 120 million tokens imagine this
is one person per token so why they are accumulate 50 and we have more tokens and just keep the 50%. They will use all liquidity
and I just
don't know how
they took
this percent.
Maybe we can renegotiate.
Maybe we can take another
10%.
You think Rojira is getting too good of a deal.
Is that what you're saying?
I just want to make sure I understand.
It's not fair for Thor thing. It's not fair. Do you think you think Rogier is getting too good of a deal? Is that what you're saying? I just want to make sure I understand. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. It's not fair for Thor chain.
Okay.
It's not fair.
Hang on though. Let's, okay. Let's just take this one step at a time. Let's start with your first
point. I don't want to get, I'll forget something you just said. So I don't believe your juxtaposition
between airlines to Thor chain and interfaces really makes sense. In fact, you know, this is
a huge zero to one new marketing landscape.
It's hard to find things in the real world
that have verisimilitude or sorry,
that are adjacent enough where they make sense.
So when you say TrustWallet,
let's take TrustWallet as an example.
TrustWallet would be very different
than the interface on ThorChain.
First off, it can be done on the mobile phone in a wallet, right?
That's really unique.
That's a different interface.
They have different options, right?
They have all kinds of different features.
Because on ThorChain, it'd just be real basic.
A real basic swap mechanism is how I envision it, right?
And so by virtue of that, you wouldn't want to charge the same fee structures
because our product is the ThorChain interface specific
would be inferior to that of various interfaces
like TrustWallet or ThorWallet or ThorSwap
or Rojira or XD5 or not XD5,
it's a control wallet, whatever.
So it cannot do everything that a Wall Plus. And plus to Kenton's point,
and this is true, people like using Trust Wallet because they feel safe with it, right?
Trust Wallet is an established brand and they have years and years and years of not having
exploits that affect all their users. And so that comes with a premium. People will stay on Trust
Wallet or they'll stay on Thor Wallet or interface insert your interface here rango doesn't matter because for whatever um reason they have
so it's just charging the same fee doesn't structure doesn't work now um to your second
point yeah but trust wallet is our real customer we need to keep them with us well hang on it's not
it's not a one-way street we provide a service for them
okay like they yeah they use us like they're their customer we're also their customer like
we provide them a service they provide us with with users on sweet on volume right so it's a
mutually beneficial relationship there's no reason for them to to get rid of us because we're not
going to be taking trust wallet users okay like a lot of trust wallet users they look at their wallet like like three times a year they're not interested as in kenden saying like we we we cannot
assign a level of sophistic because everyone listening right here like yourself pragmatic
monkey everyone listening i would say all of you are extremely sophisticated users in in in the
crypto space the vast majority of people are not like you at all. They just want a simple, easy, low
cognitive burden, boom, boom, boom. But let me go to your second point. Okay. So the fee model
and Ruggiero, I'm actually surprised. I thought you were going to take the other argument because
a lot of people think that actually ThorChain gets too good of a deal, but let me just bring
it down like this. Let's 50- what rugira brings to thor chain is truly incredible
it is absolutely incredible it is the biggest zero to one that thor chain has ever had ever
and it and what you saw um code hans bringing it is going to revolutionize the utility of thor chain
and potentially bring the most amazing volume i think for sure that we have ever seen in fact without rujira i
would make the argue that for chains climbing to the top would be extremely more difficult
nigh maybe even impossible so i think that is well worth 50 in fact rujira may become so
successful that they may look at thor chain and say you know i don't think we need to be sharing
50 with you motherfuckers.
I think you guys have too good of a deal, right?
And I've actually been floating the joke in my head.
Like, a lot of people got said,
I think Pragmatic Monkey, you were the one who said,
you know, maybe one day we'll consider, you know,
merging Rujira into Rune to unify the communities.
Actually, it might be funny if it'd be like Rune merged into Ruji, right? Like it's actually the opposite happened. So for now, listen, ThorChain is
the base liquidity that that Ruggiero needs to use for its swaps. They're providing a
unique service that is a zero to one that has the potential to redefine everything to
make ThorChain become the decentralized Binance of the world. I think the 5050 model is very
mixed,, a lot
of sense right now. Let's see where this goes. We have so much to learn about not only the
possibilities, but about each other as well. But I'm going to kick it to Pragmatic Monkey
real quick, Atraxia, just so because he is someone who's actively building and he can
maybe add some more context. Hey guys, Atraxia, I think there is a big misunderstanding here.
Like we are not, you are presenting like Rujira is getting 50% of the fee from Torchain.
Rujira is not, it's a one-way route.
Rujira is paying fees, 50% of the revenue of its app to Torchain.
Rujira is not receiving a single sense from uh tor chain so all the revenue from all the swap from
all the base layer pools nothing of that goes to rogera and actually when rogera apps use liquidity
from the base layer pool they pay a liquidity fee same as any other user users so uh i think like
uh you really like uh to understand this key thing no there is no revenue it's a
one-way route it's it's just rugeira is purely additive to torchane without without rugeira
touching with rugeira touching doesn't lose anything it just gets a new revenue stream
on top of the stream that is uh currently the main one that is uh so fee from uh from uh
is currently the main one that is the fee from base layer swap in the cross-chain swap in the
base layer pools. Can I add to that? Can you guys hear me now? Sorry about earlier, you guys.
Okay, good. Sorry about earlier, you guys. Yeah, I hope, maybe another way to think about it is imagine on Trust Wallet, we could force them to give us 50% of their, what the fee they add on.
Like that 70 basis points.
Imagine if we can get 50% of that.
That's basically what we're doing to Rujira.
And like actually technically that is written in the code and door chain, but I don't, to me it doesn't make any sense
because all that does is just increase the cost
to trade on TrustWallet, because TrustWallet,
they want to make their 70 basis points
regardless of how much we get.
It would just make ThorChain's quotes more expensive.
But so with the relationship with Rijira,
it's almost like a captured audience.
We can demand that, right?
But in theory, if we want AppLayer to grow, and this is something Pragmatic Monkey and I maybe kind of debate on,
like in my mind, we should have like 10 different Regeras built on top of ThorChain on AppLayer.
And if we want to get all these different platforms on, we, that ThorChain would actually, should actually lower its take, you know, think of that 50% of us taking from
Majira is like 50% tax, right? So to come, to come develop in ThorChain's country, to come,
you know, have a business, you got to pay 50% tax to ThorChain's government. It's like, well,
you got to pay 50% tax to ThorChain's government.
It's like, well, that's a pretty high tax jurisdiction.
You know, the jurisdictions with 10% tax,
you know, they flourish and grow and they're much, much better, right?
So, you know, if anything, maybe ThorChain's tax should come down
so we can encourage more development, you know?
Yeah, go ahead, Pragmatic.
That's it.
I just wanted to touch on that, to understand
it's a new revenue stream on top,
and it's a unidirectional benefit for Torchain,
and it's not us taking anything from Torchain.
I think that's a very key.
Yeah, one thing, I actually fully agree on the taxation at 50%, that is quite high. And that's, I think,
in the longer, we should look to lower that, especially as more competition comes on board.
So in agreement here.
And I think one thing too is, like I was saying, we all want to model out. We want to abstract
in our mind, what's going to happen
what makes the most sense um but really so much work has to get to that point I think it'll become
more clear as Ruggira um grows um a uh a Taraxia could you just uh you got a hot mic there could
you just mute that for me um I think it'll make more sense as it grows because like i said like thor chain 2021 was a baby it was it was it didn't it was like a mess it was hard and rogera although a lot of
the code base is proven another ecosystem you know we have a unique implementation here and it's it's
it's learning how to fly and we need to do that one thing i want to do though is the 50 50 model
it makes sense in my head right now it just feels right i i don't know if i could articulate it um logically um you know well enough but it makes sense right now i really what i really
want to do i think this is a winning strategy because it's a one-way street from rujira to
14 i understand how that can make some consternation in the minds of the rujerans like i really want to
take some of that fee and i want to market the app layer. I think that would make it come full circle.
I think that's a good relationship.
The app layer is getting more for their money than just access to the later one liquidity.
I really want to push the app layer and just see how it goes.
I think the 10 app layer idea is an interesting concept.
But right now, I just want a proof of concept where we really push this thing and get people swapping out like because there's so much d5 volume that we can
siphon away uh go ahead kenton yeah no i agree with you i mean it's you know i talk about
competition app layer like it like i think it's ridiculous to well maybe it's not ridiculous but
i highly doubt you we would have 10 competing Regiras within a year type thing, right? Like, Regira itself has got to have some kind of success.
But that's kind of my point is that, or my point is that the more successful Regira is,
which I obviously sincerely hope and wish they are, the more others are going to take notice.
And they're going to want, you know, a piece of that too, right?
Like, well, I want some of that.
I want to do that, right?
And so for me, that's why I think AppLayers should be open
to allow other teams to develop.
Because again, they're going to generate their own audience.
Like, they're not going to steal all the users from
Regera on their new platform.
They're going to go develop their own users,
their own audience, go find their own people.
And if we have those kinds of front hands on AppLayer,
then ThorChain is in more control of its own destiny because ThorChain is setting the price on its tax, right?
When you're developing on AppLayer,
you can only use ThorChain liquidity,
only ThorChain base layer.
You know, we're not routing anywhere else. So, you know, if you want ThorChain to be this
infrastructure that nobody knows about, we should have dozens and hundreds of front ends on AppLayer.
And that's guaranteed revenue and volume on ThorChain base layer. And we don't have to worry about these other wallets
sending the trade and volume elsewhere
if it's all happening on AppLayer.
Yeah, I agree with that.
And like you said,
there's so many amazing teams right now
working on AppLayer.
I mean, you have the NAMI,
you've got Liquidity Guys.
I mean, and so many people are coming. Pragmatic Monkey, actually, teams right now working on app layer i mean you have the nami you've got liquidity guys i mean
and so many people are coming uh pragmatic monkey actually i see your hand um shapeshift just one
second um pragmatic monkey could you give us a sense like you don't have to give me the exact
number but is there a lot of teams that are like really building for like frantically right now on
the app layer like like how bullish are you what's going on a little bit well so so there they are like probably around
10 12 teams like really actively uh buildings like like having smart contract being deployed
and all those things but then if you extend like i i have in touch let me actually have a
little file where i track things and and i, there is a lot of things are like low priority or will not go anywhere.
But I have like a list of over like 40 different projects I've been that are in the pipeline
to potentially do something with us.
So there are like a lot of things, especially on things that will come later, but on the value added front.
So we create the score primitives with Rogira, which charge fees, which is shared 50% with the store chain.
But what we want then is to attract builders that built on top of those primitives and compose them together, add extra logic, like just create products on top of those that add value, add
utility for users and generate economic activity for both Rojira and the base layer.
And once we, like we still have a few building blocks, but that's really the type of builder
I think we should really try to get in.
And like we have quite a lot of talks and we still need to put together a bunch of infrastructure working with Yoto, Rujira guys, notably to have, for example, a framework to onboard third party strategies that we allow people to come and create like vaults to trade either on Rujira trade or on perps or use any of those different primitive we have.
or use any of those different primitive we have,
build strategy on top of it,
add the management fee and the performance fee.
And you can be either a market maker
or a taker that does directional trading.
And you can put your strategy in a vault
and allow anyone to come deposit assets
and put their assets at work
without having to under the strategy yourself.
I think that's something Hyperliquid does. You have all those vaults. I think that's something Hyperliquid does.
Like you have all those vaults.
I think that's something where we have
a big opportunity there as well.
And we can do stuff much more advanced
than any other ecosystem,
just because we have this full tech stack
with all those different apps that all work together.
So quite exciting.
It's gonna be like,
it's a long grind to get to have all those building blocks ready,
but once they will be there, and especially I have mentioned in the past,
we also want to develop this referral fee plus affiliate fee framework
that we allow all those integrators to also monetize by taking a cut of the fee
of the protocol plus potentially adding an affiliate fee on top if they wish to do so.
This is going to also be a very powerful tool to attract this type of guys.
And then once we have those tools, I think it's going to be a sudden explosion.
First, a few that start, show the water.
And then I think we are going to attract a lot more strategies
and also for builders that can monetize those primitives.
That's incredible. I mean, okay, first off okay first off hey uh traxia i told you
once hey uh please mute your mic i know there's a language barrier here but um you're yeah thank
you so much um that's incredible you have 12 teams that are seriously coding and building right now
in the app layer and then you're in contact with 40 other teams or 40 teams total i should say
um and what how old is the root rudy an app player like going like what
weeks old you guys this is incredible um and if there's anyone listening to this recording or live
that you have a wallet interface you're from a different ecosystem i see lady k hi lady k this
is patriot um she's from the xrp community she's a lovely lovely gal give her a follow guys um man
i just i gotta encourage people please get in touch with pragmatic monkey. Please get in touch with regera.
Um, there's erudite in the audience.
Please get in charge of people.
There is so much to be built here.
It is an incredible thing.
Um, that's only a few weeks.
Um, we have that many teams working.
Imagine we're going to be two years from now.
I really want to market the app player.
You guys, I'm super excited.
Um, shape, shape shift.
I see your hand and then we'll go back to Ataraxia.
Go ahead, Shapeshift.
GMGM, I wanted to just have everybody start thinking
that by a matter of fact,
with freedom of choice in a free market economy,
we have proven customers typically inherently to be lazy
and willing to pay a convenience fee.
And there's some sweet spot, I believe, in between that and the whole, I want to say,
correct me if I'm wrong, the unit bias factor.
Like, say, when you're having quotes to build a brick wall, do you really want the cheapest
bid to come in and build a weight-bearing brick wall?
Probably not. Just some food for thought. And that it should also be noteworthy. If anybody, by the
time you say, can you hear me now? I've noticed in spaces, if you can't hear, you're the one that
needs to recycle. So just wanted to throw that out there to chew on and hopefully we're not, Pedro, the cheapest and garnering the respect of being the lowest dollar store crypto DeFi swapper.
We need to have a perceivable value.
It's a zero to one holy grail technology.
We act like it.
That's all. Godspeed thanks thanks for your input um uh and then kenton i'll go to you in a little bit um do you
have anything you want to add to that thanks thanks in turn for the tip notice next time
um ataraxia you got your hand up go ahead okay and it will be possible use room has collateral
uh to take along when regita goes live with with lending also it will be possible take along with
the others nine change i don't think i don't think we're gonna i hope not no i don't we're
very against that we do not want to use the base asset of ThorChain to be leveraged in a lending module on the app layer, which is on top of ThorChain itself. We learned our mistake from ThorFi. We don't want a ThorFi 2.0. So no, I would very much advocate strongly against that.
Okay. And also in future conversation, can you open the comment section
because for me it's better.
No, that's okay.
So one thing about that, that's not within our control.
X is stupid.
So ThorChain is the main one.
They host a space.
Sometimes the comments show up, sometimes they don't.
I don't have an explanation for it.
We've talked about it.
I agree with you.
We believe in maximum transparency
and people commenting and i'm sorry to people out there who want to make comments i don't understand
why x bases do that and as you can see kenton had some audio or audio problems i completely failed
to be a co-host um i was supposed to be patriot sounds up here i completely failed and thank god
i had ruin bond as a backup i have no idea i don't get it so uh yeah that's
i'm hoping someone just developed spaces 2.0 elon get your ass to work this is terrible okay but the
for the other nine change using torching it will be possible to take along like dodge uh bitcoin
cash that's my understanding yes okay okay well thank you my frank yes absolutely i confirm like
all the layer one assets uh no issue at all it's we still have to work out exactly the details but
what we want to do effectively is uh borrowing caps that are uh effectively linked to on-chain
liquidity so what you want to make sure is that at all time,
you always have enough liquidity on-chain
to guarantee your daily liquidation
if that price to go down.
It's not an easy thing to do,
but that's what we are aiming at.
And to minimize the risk,
you only want to do that for high liquidity assets.
However, if we can have a robust framework for that, like
even using Rune with a low max borrow cap would be totally safe. There is no issue with that,
but it's more like a social thing with the community, making sure people are comfortable
with that and which level they are comfortable. But technically, it's totally doable to also have a market with Rune or TCY or TCY.
TCY has a lower liquidity, so it will be much more restrained.
But Rune has plenty of liquidity, so a bit of leverage with that would be totally safe.
But up to social consensus.
I want to add to that, just maybe explain it a bit further.
Somebody's a bit unsure, unclear what we're talking about well in in january when thorify effectively
blew up and was defaulted on the the problem with the design was it just to make it simple
is that rune was used as collateral and when and if you know, in liquidation events, collateral is sold.
And because Rune is intrinsic to how ThorChain works, like in the liquidity pools and with the
nodes, with the price of Rune going down, it amplifies the downward spiral because the pools
get smaller, volume goes down, revenue goes down, nodes want to leave, we lose security.
It has a very negative, strong native of consequences. So we want to avoid any sell-offs
in the Rune price. And a good way to help protect us from that is just avoid using
Rune as collateral. Then we can just avoid any any liquidations on the rune token which would drive
down the price so that that's that's why you know there'd be very little appetite to do any kind of
like you know open a full board to allow any kind of borrowing on rune but either way i think it
will be possible when maya protocol a merge with ruggeda the people will take a loan using
the maya protocol correct but that's that's different because it uses the security it's
based on a different protocol i so i think that fixes the game theory what is that right kenton
i'm not sure but um i'll just maybe add is that you know we obviously can't stop third parties
from using ruinune as collateral
and issuing loans.
That can happen.
I was talking about competition before, right?
If people want to do that, it's a free market, they can do it.
And for me, I'd rather just let the third parties do it.
ThorChain can't control it, but I don't think ThorChain as a protocol should create that
or endorse it.
Yeah, and just sorry, like you mentioned the fusion of Torchain, sorry, of Rogira and Maya. I'm not sure what this is about. You mean, I guess, when Rogira will launch some apps on Maya.
And yes, Kenton was saying, if it's permissionless,
okay, anybody can do it.
Doesn't matter where the market is.
If rune is used as collateral
and the price goes down
and it's getting to a LTV level
that is unsafe,
people will get liquidated
and that will create
sell pressure on rune.
So yeah, it's also something
if we were ever
to make a market for that on Torchain Applayer directly,
we should also be mindful of what exists on other chains.
But that we cannot control.
It's all permissionless at the end.
For those who don't know, like, Thorify on Torchain,
that was an attempt to make something like an app player.
Because we have the swapping mechanism, right?
Layer one to layer one.
We don't want to stop there.
We literally, like our ethos has always been liberating the world economically.
And you need to offer more than just swaps at the end of the day to do that.
But, you know, doing something like an app player for us, that's very hard.
I mean, we have really no experience in that but with with what's once
called kujira again it's people who are not familiar becoming rogera and then merging with
thor chain this changes everything it's an app layer built on top of 14 the base asset rune
becomes boring again which is beautiful no leverage none of this nonsense um whatever
third parties do with with it that's their thing and i think that's fine
um as long as we don't have an intrinsic design on 14 itself where the vast majority of runes going
to be um leveraged or used in a mechanism i think i think it's just fine it works just good but
that's what rogera gives to us is what we always wanted gomatic. And maybe also on the design itself, Tor5 was particularly bad
because what it did effectively was whenever you open the loan, if you use Bitcoin as collateral,
it will record the quantity of Bitcoin you deposit as collateral as what you are owed. But then it will swap that for Rune.
And that means that if Rune was going down
relative to Bitcoin,
or if Bitcoin was going up relative to Rune,
it was creating an uncapped liability for the protocol.
And that was a terrible design,
because effectively,
if Rune was not at least tracking those assets,
you are getting an ever and ever growing liability
and with no liquidation.
So it is connected to something completely unmanageable
and leading to the blow up.
Here on Rugeera, we are using a much more safe model.
There is no uncapped liability.
Everything will work on the landing site as a CDP,
so collateralized debt position.
You will have your collateral, let's say if it's ruined by your BTC or whatever, you deposit that.
It has a value of 100. You can borrow up to, say, $75 for $100 worth of collateral.
If that gives you your LTVs, the value of your loan compared to the value of your collateral.
And if at any point in time,
you break what is considered a safe LTV based on the parameter of the protocol,
then a portion of your collateral becomes at risk
and people can come, bid on it, buy it at a discount,
sell it, and with a proceed from the sales,
it repays your loan and it reduces the liability
and it puts the liability and it
puts back your health ratio of your position, your LTV at a compliant level. So it's a much safer
system. It has been around like forever, like started with Compound and Aave back in the day
on Ethereum. It's very battle to say and proven. The beauty of what Top5 was offering is that
you have no liquidation, so of course from a
borrower perspective it was beautiful
but this was at the cost of creating an infinite
liability for the protocol and of course
eventually it blew up
here, that's not how it works
borrowers can get liquidated
and that's how you actually keep the system safe as well
so in any case, it will never be the same
kind of risk profile.
It's much, much less riskier.
Yeah, right.
And that was well said.
Thor5 was built,
was modeled around a broken first principle. It was made on an assumption
on game theory in the market
that smaller market caps
gradually outperform larger market caps.
Very bad idea.
Obviously learned lessons on that. But that's why
I'm so thankful Pragmatic Monkey and everyone is here because you guys have a lot of knowledge in
this arena and it's been like the greatest power up. So thank you so much. Kenton, did you have
something that you wanted to say? I do. Not about this topic. I had another on marketing. Okay. Yeah. Just another anecdote about competition. So I used to live in North County, Senegal, Encinitas, the Lucadia neighborhood. And if you're ever in North County, Encinitas is pretty cool. Go check it out. And then you got to go to the Regal Segal. That was my, my local pub. And they've got like San Diego is kind of a craft beer,
one of the hubs in the U S and there's like a hundred microbreweries or
something there. But anyways, so Regal Segal,
they've got 24 beers on tap and it's a rotating,
they're rotating taps. So, so when the keg is kicked, when it's done,
they put in a completely different beer. So every time you go there,
you have to look, see on the board, what, what beers they have.
And it's really cool. Cause you basically,
you can do a brewery tour just within the pub, right?
And you have to go drive around. There's always, even being a regular,
there's always new beers on, on there. And it was a great spot.
It was like tons of like locals that people in the neighborhood were regulars. And, you know great spot. It was like tons of locals, people in the neighborhood
were regulars.
And you could go by yourself, bump into somebody you know
type thing.
And then right beside it, St. Archer, a beer company,
set up their own pub, literally right beside the Regal Segal.
And the owners of the Seagull were kind of pissed.
They're like, you know, what are you guys doing?
Like it's, you know, it's competition, right?
You know, you're selling beer.
We're selling beer, right?
But what ended up happening is St. Archer,
it was literally empty when the Seagull would be packed.
Like the buildings are right beside each other.
And you stand back on the sidewalk, you see one is packed,
the other one's absolutely empty. And it's because no one likes St. Archer it was uh I don't know it's like uh I know some skaters started it it's just like all
marketing like there's not that wasn't it's kind of low quality beer but it's just like you know
they just spent the money on just trying to market it instead of building a you know good product
and I think a lot of people just kind of saw it as like a phony beer kind of fake.
And so no one supported it.
And the community supported the Regal Seagull.
So much so that within like, I think St. Archer only lasted maybe about a year, maybe two,
but it just, they had to shut down.
So you have literally two beer pubs right beside each other they're
both selling a beer probably the same price they both get you drunk right they both do the same
things um but nobody went to st archer everybody is going to the seagull because they had the
relationship with the seagull that was their place that was their home. That's where they like to be. They're comfortable.
You know, if Regal Siegel hadn't been there first, then fine.
Maybe St. Archer would be busy and people would go there, whatever, right?
But it just gives you an idea how markets work.
You know, people stick to their brands and their products are comfortable with and they like.
And it's not as simple as, oh, I'm going to just, you know, put something up beside you.
I'm going to steal your customers. It's not that simple.
So, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
There's a lot of Humans are complex creatures. The comfort factor is something that goes a long way. People like doing the same things. A lot of people do not like change, even if it's irrational. You know what I mean? They'll do the same thing again and again and again. And I think because most of the, everyone in the audience is a very complex, deep thinker.
We actually overthink things.
I remember one thing,
let me tell you one little anecdote by myself.
I remember thinking that Uber Eats and DoorDash and these companies,
I thought that was really dumb initially
because i didn't think poor people would use it because i was just looking at the price now i'm
like are you kidding me you're gonna spend like eight twelve dollars for a fee to buy a five
dollar hamburger with or like you know eight dollars like you are doubling the cost i'm like
who in their right mind would use such a thing this is just so financially irresponsible and aloof i mean
really fuck was i wrong i was wrong as hell people love that stuff i've seen i went to gas stations
i'm like that guy can't this is back before inflation like that guy can't be making more
than 12 12 10 bucks an hour and he's got like he'd bring in like the biggest meal from the restaurant
that was really far away that everyone can eat like during their lunch and just paid the most exorbitant fee. And so like, yeah, guys, the fee structure
and product does not necessarily have a direct one-to-one relationship with their user count.
Yeah, maybe you'll lose some, like you would have lost me. But again, apparently we are all in the
extreme minority. So that was a humbling moment
for me. I was extremely wrong about that moment. That's what that reminds me of what Kenton said.
Well, it's also like a lot of Bitcoin maxis. They crap on all the meme coins and Bitcoin cash
and Litecoin, all these forks of Bitcoin.
And I would argue that actually Bitcoin is the original meme coin.
I don't say that in a derogatory term.
But Maxis will complain that, oh, there's all these other tokens and it's taking away from Bitcoin.
As if these other tokens didn't exist, take all those market caps, and that market cap would then be added to Bitcoin.
And I'm like, no, actually, I would argue it's the complete opposite.
Having all these other tokens exist is probably what helps make Bitcoin market cap larger for a couple of reasons.
One is how many people are new to crypto and they start with shit coins. I don't
like that term, but you know what I mean? They're like genuinely bad tokens and they get burned,
disenfranchised, and then they become Bitcoiners, right? They didn't start with Bitcoin, but they
ended up with it. And because a lot of people don't, you know, they think Bitcoin is expensive.
They don't want to, you know, whatever their reasons are.
But going into, coming into crypto a different way ends up leading them to Bitcoin.
And then also too, just having these other tokens that succeed and do stuff.
That's marketing for crypto in general and Bitcoin indirectly.
And then the more, going back to what I was saying about being confident in your product, despite having, what, 40 million different cryptocurrencies out there, Bitcoin is still the king.
It's on top of everyone else. And the more tokens that are out there and that fail
just reinforces how strong Bitcoin is
and gives their users, that audience,
more confidence to hold and hodl and all good stuff.
So I would argue that all the competition in crypto
is good for Bitcoin and help sets it apart and help keeps it high.
So this is how it's not intuitive, but this is this is how markets work.
This is how free markets work, how competition is good for society and good for the people competing with each other.
You know, it helps raise the bar for everybody.
Yeah, I agree. It's not intuitive at all. And I failed that check a few times,
just thinking too deeply about it when really you need to be much more superficial and think
about more about human behaviorism. We have a new speaker up for Max. You want to go and check your
mic? Go ahead, buddy.
Hey, y'all.
Yeah, I just wanted to bring up an analogy that I can't quite shake out of my head lately.
And a lot of times I think about, you know, is Rune sort of the water company, right?
Your local water utility provides all this liquidity, but it doesn't really make a lot of money.
Like the price of water does not 10x.
And, you know, like the breweries make a lot of money. Like, the price of water does not 10x. And, you know, like, the breweries make a lot of money off that water.
And, you know, Nestle bottles it, and they make a lot of money off of it.
But the, you know, the local water company isn't posting record profits.
Nobody's getting rich off that.
And I kind of feel like maybe that's sort of what's going on with Rune lately.
Lately, I mean, forever now.
It seems like, oh, when we get Ledger, then it'll'll take off and when we get this or that it'll take off and then we're doing Thor fine it'll take off that didn't clearly work out well so I'm just
sort of like does the value accumulate to Rune or does the value just flow through Rune like even
bonding right now it's like 3.5 percent Like it would literally be better in the corner bank.
So, and that's my concern.
It's like, are we just going to keep expanding the network or expanding the network?
And more and more people are being served by all these liquidity pipes we're building.
And yet the price of water never does shit.
It's like, when does the money accumulate to the token?
I don't see why the community almost seems antithetical to that happening. It's like, when does the money accumulate to the token? I don't see why the community almost seems antithetical to that happening.
It's like, I don't know, I just, it baffles me that the price is what it is, you know,
despite Thorify and everything else.
We ended emissions and yet the price hasn't budged.
Like, surely that was going to do it.
And now Ruggiero is basically here and the price isn't budging.
It's like, is the only way to make money with rune to take advantage of the rune ecosystem by building a front end or an app
layer app or something like that but the people who you know run the nodes and provide the liquidity
it doesn't seem to be working out real great unless you were super early
so the thing is yeah it's a decent in that yeah it's a
decent analogy but the the thing with the water company they have a monopoly on their on their
jurisdiction right on their municipality or locality or whatever door changes even imagine
the water company competing with 10 other water companies you know it's even worse right right
it's even worse yeah so and and you're absolutely even worse. Yeah. So and you're absolutely right.
It's the who's taking that water and turning it into a product and upselling it.
They're the ones making the margin or making the because, again, like that's how markets work.
Right. They you create a product and you you market, you promote it.
you market, you promote it, and people are paying for their branding, their promotion, right?
And people are paying for their branding, their promotion. Right.
You know, if you're just selling the raw materials into that product, it's usually not huge margins, right?
But where you make money is on volume, right?
And so, you know, what, so I agree with you that, like, that's kind of my concern with door chain just being infrastructure is that what is this really worth, this volume, this source of liquidity?
And if we're being diluted across 10 other sources of liquidity, that's where we get in this race to the bottom
of our fees, of our price.
Whereas if we can be vertically integrated,
which I understand, I know it was purposely avoided
in the beginning, but if we were become vertically integrated,
we then can start capturing a piece of that end product,
right, and at least start capturing, you know, some of our own revenue.
And so I think your analogy is sound.
I think it's good.
It's right.
And that's my argument for having a front end is so we can start selling some of that
end product.
And I'm not that concerned about regulatory capture.
My understanding, that was the only reason
DoorChain didn't set out that way to begin with.
If we can protect ourselves from that.
Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of the front end as a one way,
and yet it's still only to be one front end out of,
you know, 10, 20, 50, 50 hundreds however many we end up with I wonder I keep going back
to this and every time I brought it up people want to shoot it down left right
and center but it seems like you know if a wallet wants to charge you know 10%
for affiliate fee on a swap and it seems like ThorChain's fees should just be
okay if you're charging 10% then we're getting 1% of that 10% if you want to catch that
full 10% then jump bump it up to 12% if you can get it you know and then we only
take 0.12 or whatever you know it's like let's set some ratio of what's fair
because it seems like the front ends and a lot of other things are just making
money hand over fist now the 50-50 split split with ruji may be the thing that saves it you know that would be great
that seems like a fair deal but why is it 50 50 with you know ruji's an app but trust wall it's
also an app and they're getting it for basically free did you just did you just join this competition
competition but did you just join throw max or did you hear us talk about this half an hour ago?
Oh, no, I've heard that, yeah.
Okay, okay.
Just sort of reiterating the point.
Ultimately, if the project's going to succeed, the value is going to have to flow to the token.
The token cannot continue to lose value against everything else and and for
the whole damn thing's going to come crumbling down right like yeah well we need users we need
volume right and um with with all the wallets we have no control if they send the volume to us or
not um so that that's basically you know what i'm trying to argue is we need to find a way to
be more in control of that um ruji is good it's gonna be great for that because they
they could all the volume comes with or chain right if they can't it anywhere else um um i
thought of oh your so your idea about if a front end charge 10 what if we take one
let's basically a tariff, right?
So, you know, I don't know if you guys have heard about the US and tariffs,
but, right, so this is, you know, the argument is that, well,
it just gets passed on, the cost gets passed on to the end user, right?
You know, the US isn't actually going to make any more money and blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, Trump is saying, well, no, the, the producer is going to take the hit. Um, you know,
will that happen with the front end? If we throw in a tariff, will the front end take that hit
or will they pass it on to the user? If they pass it on to their user, then we're making Thorchain trades more expensive,
which gets us put in the bottom of the queue for the quotes.
So I guess the only really way to know,
I guess it would just be to try it, experiment.
So I'm pretty sure that code is all done.
It's all in there.
It's just set to zero right now.
This came up, I wanna to say, about a year ago now.
It was implemented.
But I think the code was approved, but it was never actually turned on
because we were worried about it pissing off the front ends.
Yeah.
It seems like if the users that are making these swaps are so price insensitive
that they'll pay those big fees at Ledger or Trust Wallet,
then like taking a minor fraction of that, a tenth of that,
maybe it only needs to be a hundredth of that.
I don't know what it is.
But it seems like there's some rule where anybody would just look at it and say,
look, that's perfectly fair if we make x then you make this little sliver of x
and it might you know also avoid people getting price gouged on thor chain and you know anywhere that's going to start charging you know 50 fees to unaware users or something like that. There's an elephant in the room here.
And this is why I keep talking and it just doesn't happen.
I'm like, and Ken has brought this up, like marketing.
Like this is why I want to market the app layer, right?
Like market the app layer because that's all volume to ThorChain.
Additionally, guys, like me, myself, I am reaching out as much as I can.
I'm getting really, I'm really fond of the XRP community. I think they're great.
And I'm talking with them all the time. Like you guys can take personal agency on this and just
spread the word. Like people don't know. Like that's one thing there's, we are all in our own
bubble, our own ecosystem. I have to spend so much cognitive burden just to keep up with
thor chain and regira and mocha and everyone else people just don't know it exists so like
i understand people may be upset about the price but i don't like that's a that is such an
intellectual inefficiency go out there and just try and make it happen like just say go out to
an ecosystem and tell people like like try to on ramp people.
Because the growth factor here is incredible. And the biggest winners in any market is when there's asymmetries, when you know something that the vast majority of the market doesn't know.
But like that was me with Tesla.
But the beautiful thing with Tesla is I didn't have any agency there.
I couldn't.
I wasn't an engineer.
I couldn't like help them make execution besides
other than just say hey I think Tesla's gonna do well like everyone here has agency you all
can friggin do something you can go to a space you can go talk to somebody so like for me I I
just for me it hurts when someone complains about the price I'm like well then just do something
about it like do something do something because to me it Because to me, it doesn't affect me at all.
Like my brain just like,
it's like hitting a fucking brick wall
again and again and again.
It's like, there's always people complain.
And it's like, I'm literally spending
my own free time and effort
trying to show the world
that we've built something here
that's truly incredible.
The XRPers now are no longer sequestered
to a centralized exchange
that if the
scc had attacked them in 2021 and if they were on thort chain they would have had no problem because
they would have been free like what we built here is truly incredible be an emissary be that
emissary go tell people like all of you are so super smart so super passionate we have done it
you guys we have built something here that makes blockchain what's
always supposed to be take ownership put it in your heart and go out there and join me i need
help like i'm i'm doing the best i can but all of us can do this and i'm not i'm not trying to be
coming at you hard thor max but i just i hope that's that's going through your mind a little
bit like what can you do as an individual what can anyone do as an individual um and eric's been out
there too like eric's mocha he's he shills thor chain you know i mean like we're doing it together right um because
he knows that thor chain is health's important for his own project like let's just all work together
and make it happen i'm gonna take a little bit of issue with the the cheerleading and the kumbaya
on this like thor chain's always doing this i've shilled for years on Twitter. I don't know what
more I can do other than that. I'm not a coder. No, excuse me. Have you gone on X spaces? Shilling
on Twitter doesn't do anything. A post? No one gets a shilling. No, no. And I'm going to take
issue with that. Like I have put hundreds of thousands of dollars into this project
and I have fucking jack shit to show for it. Right? Yeah. How much Bitcoin that I've lost investing in Torchain has been
insane. And now I'm expected to also like be the marketer and yada, like just holding Rune should
be enough. I also LP, I also bond provide, yada, yada. Like I have put my life savings into this
damn thing. Lots of coders I'm sure have made decent money and walked off with salaries and whatnot. I
don't know what all that money went to support. I don't have it anymore as the prices crashed,
and Thorify ate it, and Savers withdrew, and on and on and on. But it's like, at some point,
the system just has to be set up in such a way that it's intuitively profitable for people to
be involved. I agree with that. That's not the case.
Well, my guy, though,
I'm in the same position as you.
I'm in the same position.
There's no difference between you and I.
I have lost money
and done things like that, too.
But I'm telling you,
I spend my own time
going to conferences
and talking to teams.
That's how I met Mocha,
going on spaces.
And it's just like,
I understand.
And you're a very you're a very
passionate member and and i've seen you for years and i think you're great okay um and i feel you i
understand where you're coming from but it's just at the come of the day like just talking about
that saying that doesn't do anything it doesn't and we got to keep going like asymmetries in tesla
tesla shot to the moon because it took years and years of pain struggle blood sweat and tears to, and tears to get to that point where people realized like, hey, this isn't a car company.
This is a technology company.
They have software.
Like there's automated driving.
Like there's zero to ones in Tesla that set it apart.
We have to tell people, especially with Regera, man.
I mean, just think about that.
What Hans said, what JP said, what Pragmatic Monkey said.
I understand you're
a little beat down like a dog. And I've been there myself, bro, but you just got to rekindle
in your heart. And I hate to, I don't want to be some hollow and empty and vacuous cheerleader.
That's not my style, but we got this thing, man. We just got to keep going. We've, we've done it.
You guys, we just got to keep pushing. I firmly believe that the first principle say that it's
not me emotionally just wanted to be true. It logical end stages here logical end stages where the math makes sense
we no longer have leverage in the system we got rid of we we survived the thorify thing
we don't have savers uh we did it man and i know this has been such a struggle it has been
but i promise you joe i'm doing everything i possibly can to make your
commitment to this ecosystem worth it all those years um just keep the faith bro and just keep
doing what you're doing we're gonna get there well yeah and part of that is you know calling
things out like i was calling for the end to inflation long before it was forced on us
and um you know i kind of was like geez if people would have paid a little more attention before
that'd be great.
We wouldn't have had to go through all that.
We could have made that switch beforehand.
And I feel like sort of the same thing is going on right now with, you know, bonding percentages and LPs.
Like, you know, savers got walked off with a lot of money and borrowers got made holes, TYC.
But LP years, we're still we were still down bad, bound very bad, and with no real hope on the horizon.
So there are some fundamental things.
It's like, let's be aware that value, it's okay for the value to accumulate to the coin.
And I think nodes for a long time have been looking at it like, well, I keep collecting awards, so I'm getting more and more of the rune.
Holders are getting less and less of the rune as this goes on so that's kind of compensation for them but still
it's like if you're making money in a token where the token price never goes up it's like obviously
nodes have more room than anybody like let's make sure that it's okay for value and should
accumulate to the coin you know i hear a lot about getting rid of the burn,
and maybe there are better ways to use the burn
than the whole separate account.
But at some point, there's so much dev focus
on the new things that are coming up,
and I don't hear a lot of talk about
how the money is going to accumulate to the token.
Well, it accumulates through...
I just want to put that out into the mind space.
Yeah, through volume, right? Through revenue. to the token. Well, it accumulates through- I just want to put that out into the mine space. Thanks.
Yeah, through volume, right?
Through revenue.
So you get to zoom out a bit too.
We're arguably still in the bear market for altcoins, right?
You know, the door chain, Rune is not immune to the broader market influences.
And all, you know, Bitcoin is doing well, but most altcoins are not.
And somebody actually posted on Twitter.
I forget what, which ones are where he picked him.
If you go to JP's profile and you search his post, excuse me, all capital letters, JP replied to this guy.
And this guy posted four charts, four different
cryptos. And one of them was Thorchain. And the charts look exactly the same. As if fundamentals
mean or meaningless for all these projects, because they're all just trading the same
patterns. It's just, you know, money coming in or out of the sector. So we're down right now as a sector, which affects us.
And that also affects trading volume.
People are less active.
They're not out trading.
They're not doing stuff, especially when prices are range bound.
Somebody actually posted something interesting the other day about the volume on ThorChain
being low because basically in the last 100 days or something last few months, like ThorChain or
Bitcoin has been within like a 1% or 5% range or something like that. Like when markets,
when tokens go sideways, there's just less trading activity because less volatility so less
trading activity so there's less there's less fees so um you know we're in a bear market sentiment
people aren't active there's no volatility traders aren't trading there's no arving so volume is just
down right revenue is down and and that's the key to getting the room price up is volume right we
get volume up that means fees are up. That means
yields are up. And then people chase those yields. And that's why I do have to give kudos to the devs
because rain or shine, they continue to produce. They continue to innovate, write more code,
make more improvements. And this is like, you know, it's like eating healthy and
just in exercising every day. Like, you know, you go to the gym and you work out and you look in the
mirror and you're like, this didn't do anything. And you do it the next day. You work out, go look
in the mirror. I don't look any different. You do it day after day and you're like, I'm not making
any progress. Well, when you look at it in such a small scale, yeah, you're right.
But if you start working out and look in the mirror six months later,
holy smokes, you do notice difference.
You might not be jacked, but you are making progress.
And maybe it takes you a year or two to get the physique you want.
Maybe some people are lucky and it only takes them six months.
But the point I'm trying to make is
that as far as i'm concerned the devs are doing everything they can't keep going to get that
physique that we want they keep adding features and keep finding ways to increase that volume
and um so when the markets do turn around we do do get some volatility, we do get people active again.
ThorChain is much better, has much more to offer to capture more users and more volume to get those fees up.
And those fees are buy pressure on Rune, right?
And then as the yield goes up, you understand how it works.
The yield goes up. You understand how it works. The yield goes up.
The yield goes up, people want to bond more to capture the yield.
People want to bond more to capture the yield.
This is actually one reason I'm kind of okay with leaving the bond,
the node cap at 120 nodes, because, you know,
we're kind of penalized for our success in getting more nodes because that
means less yield for everybody, right?
Because it's the same amount of fees,
but between more nodes.
If we leave the cap at 120 for a while
and volume and fees go up,
the yield to BPs is going to go up.
Maybe it's good to keep it at 20% APYs consistently
for several months before we increase the node count.
Start getting people to appreciate, you know,
there's some returns here.
And that yield going to BP is just, it's going to strong hands.
They're not selling it.
So, you know, that rune is coming off the market.
So it just, oh, it sucks now in the short term,
especially, you know, looking at the last six months.
But I'd also ask you to zoom out a bit, you know, look forward, um,
the next year or two. And, you know,
I wouldn't be surprised if a year from now we have people coming on the space
talking about how, how much money they've made on Thor chain. So, um, yeah.
It's like, reminds me of that meme.
You guys remember the meme where you have the
this little cartoon old man with his like little pickaxe and he's just keep picking and picking
and picking and he stops just before the diamonds but you know i i'm gonna give thor max some credit
to his to his um argument because for me i find it perplexing too like realizing what we've built
here i because i'm buying rune all the time. I really am.
I don't understand why people aren't just gobbling it up. I mean, it's just incredible
what we're building here. But, you know, like I was saying, like getting out there, I don't know,
I don't know if Lady K was on the same space, but yesterday in Pragmatic Monkey and Regerians,
I talked to a few XRPers. I found a guy who's has a bot that he does automatic trades with on the XRPL. And I
reached out to him, I talked to him and I said, Hey, like we're building a Ruggiero's building
where you can use native XRP on this, like here, let go. And then next thing, you know, he's in
the, he's in the Ruggiero telegram and I'm hoping hem'd pragmatic monkey. I think that's what happened
And dude like this is how it's done guys. Like we're getting there. We're getting there
We have a zero to one product. It works. It solves the problem. It's unique. It's more secure
People are less, you know
God, I don't want to repeat myself. All of you guys know the things
We are so close. I feel it deep and down deep down
I feel like it did with Tesla when I
realized Tesla was not a car company. It's a technology company. It's a software company.
We have something here. It's truly revolutionizing. We have Solana coming. We have Tron coming.
We just have to do the work to spread the word and let people know that we exist and that a new
era is here. This has been such a battle. It's been so hard.
And I promise I'm just going to keep doing everything I can to make this come home for
anyone listening to this. But just help me if you can, anything you can do, because I believe
we're going to get there. And I think also too, I think ThorChain's been pretty good about
trying different things.
We've got AppLayer now, trying getting Regira going.
This is why I've been so passionate about getting worked up about having our own front end,
because I'm re-evaluating the business plan of ThorChain.
It's made me think, you know what, we need our own front end, you know? So it's like, you know,
we're not doing the same thing over and over again,
expecting a different result. Like we are,
I think everyone is trying to innovate and do different things. Cause like,
like Patriot, like you said, like we're onto something.
Like I think that's what's just kept me going.
I'm sure it's the same thing kept,
kept everyone else going is that we know that this is a big deal that having a
real decentralized exchange like this is a big deal that having a real decentralized
exchange like this is huge and um um and despite everything that's been thrown at it it's still
going like this this is there's something here and um you know it's kind of like you know if
you guys ever watch documentaries on like bands when they like make a song like you know they'll
just walk in the studio and have their hit song done like it's a process you know they go back and forth they
argue with each other they get drunk they're hung over you know whatever it is um and then after
you know a couple weeks of battling it out they come out this massive hit that we've all been
listening to for the last 30 years but it's you know it starts off with like you know uh kind of like putting a puzzle together
you know it takes time before you can see the full picture so um i i feel pretty in my mind that's
what keeps me what i feel good about door chain is to see everyone putting this piece together
this puzzle we all see the same we all know what the picture looks like. And we're all putting the pieces together, but we still, you know, we're still struggling to
find how they fit, but we're, we're, we're making progress. Yeah. And, and I, I empathize with
Thor Max's like frustration because I'm the same way. Like, um, I don't want to reveal too much
about myself, but Mike, my dad's not doing good right now. And part of me is like, man, I like,
we've done it. Like we've done the hard work. I part of me is like, man, we've done it. We've
done the hard work. I feel like we did our due diligence. We really did an honest attempt to
experiment. We tried Savers. We tried Thorpefy. And for all the obvious, we can look back now,
and it's so easy to parse, but that was not a good design. But we limited those things. We did our
due diligence. We made all the correct decisions and limiting risky things. And we did our due diligence we made all the correct decisions and and and limiting
risky things and we finally played we paid in blood for the knowledge that we have now and now
i feel like everyone kind of understands as kenton says like we now know what we're doing we now know
what we're about and for the first time like core developers and nine realms are like literally on
the same page you know the core devs got some things
right nine realms got some things right both parties got things wrong at times when it comes
to private conversation and it was that mutual work right so for me i i really want like for me
yeah i'm restless too i want thor chain and rogera and everything to go well i want mocha to do well
because we've truly done something.
Like we started back in 2020, 2021,
realizing there's a serious problem in blockchain space.
We have islands of liquidity and they can't touch each other
without surrendering custody, right?
And that's morphed into what we've built today.
And it's here, guys.
We've done it.
So yeah, I feel you, Thor Max.
I feel you.
But I'm feeling good at the same time so yeah we've been ranting on you thor max you have more to add or say yeah and i you know the
more i think about it the more i i'm kind of i'm empathizing with you but it like it's emotional
for me on some level too because i'm really trying really hard so yeah i mean i've done so much
shilling on twitter and whatnot over the years,
and now I feel like there's room in ThorChain.
It's a strong enough project that it can take some internal heat, right,
and some reality checks on occasion.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I just feel the need to bring that up on occasion.
Like, why isn't – it just baffles me that even with the inflation cut to zero
and then a burn added, the price just is not.
And it seems to me like if this project is going to be successful, it needs to be able to keep up its BTC ratio.
It needs to be able to keep up the ratios with everything else in the pools.
Otherwise, it'll just be constant and permanent loss.
It's like that seems like a major – I don't know.
Maybe I don't understand the very fine intricacies of the design quite enough, but I feel like I've got a pretty good mental model
of how this all works.
Seems like that is critical.
Yeah, you have a great mental model.
And I hope you didn't understand my pushback
as censorship on you.
I never want to censor anybody.
Okay, cool, cool. I was insecure about that.
And I'm certainly not
here to crap on the project. Obviously, I believe in it
or I would have sold out long ago. But I frustrated with the price actually sure the greater market is down and
all that but you would think Thor chain seems like it's the one thing that really makes money
like literally makes money it should be able to buck the trend and so far has not and so I don't
know maybe that's just a little commiserating with my fellow wounded soldiers out there. But also, like, let's make sure we're focused on the money accumulating to the rune price, you know, not just getting passed through to all of the other, you know, businesses and front ends and things that have developed around it.
Well, part of the issue in my mind is nobody knows about ThorChain, right? To invest
in it. So like we've lost holders, investors over the years, especially in, you know, we lost some
longer term ThorChads in January, February. But there's no one coming to buy from them, right?
There's no one replacing them. And this is another thing that I'd like to try and solve in marketing.
Like, you know, we can't get people investing in Rear and buying it if they don't know about it.
Like, you know, we got to play the game.
You know, how many times have you seen on Twitter somebody posting a chart with like 10 other protocols and all their metrics,
but ThorChain is missing. And ThorChain arguably at the top of that list.
Like, you know, unfortunately, we have to pay for that stuff to get included.
You know, we got to do, you know, press releases, we got to get, you know, ThorChain has to be in
people's minds if they want to buy the token. Right.
And if nobody knows about it, no one's going to buy it. So, um, um,
I think that needs to be fixed too. Um,
so yeah, it's, uh, yeah,
I agree with a lot of stuff you're saying, Thor max. Um, yeah.
Um, and if anyone else wants to speak, hands are bugged.
Like, I have hands that are popping up.
So, you know, please just interject at any time if someone wants to say something because X is really fucking bugged today.
Yeah, amen.
I tell you, collecting your thoughts and holding on to them are two different things.
I'm going to steal the mic for a second respectfully, amen. I tell you, collecting your thoughts and holding on to them are two different things. I'm going to steal the mic for a second, respectfully, everybody.
ThorMax, ditto. We're here because of our conviction and comprehension.
From my perspective, we are in crypto utilizing the ability to be unaccredited investors for the bulk of it investing in software that
doesn't work yet ThorChain functions and makes money I love the analogy that instead of picking
a horse in the horse race ThorChain represents the I draw it to akin to investing being part
owner in an international bank of settlements.
And instead of worrying about which horse is going to win the race,
we earn money through volume,
regardless of which horses come in first, second, or third.
And I'm reminded, it begs repeating, that bull markets climb and hurdle with a single bound,
the tallest walls of worry,
and the best marketing is number go up and it also bears repeating that we have the luxury and we're lucky or just me
i'll speak for myself that we are involved in a protocol that is effectively mutually assured self-preservation that it pays
nobody to destroy, even if they could. Now, to land this, my call to action is to consider
since ChaosNet, I'm here because of the agnosticism. We shouldn't be picking favorites.
We should get out there ahead of time and pick the top 10 or 20 people with
fill in the blank, with Ledger, with Trust Wallet, with Dogecoin, anybody, everybody,
and invite them when they're included. They're more respected. They're more like, hey, I've been
invited somewhere. I'm going to, if I can't make it, maybe I'll listen into it and learn something.
And I just think that's the most obvious path forward.
Thanks for listening to the rantings of a madman.
Hey, thanks, sir.
God, I appreciate it.
I had a really, hey, Kenton, dude, we have, this is going to burn your ego.
This hurt.
This is funny, though.
That's someone in the Rgera telegram that's like
hey could you guys end the space so i can hear the recording listen to hans and jv
that's so funny we're going for another hour baby yeah now we're going all day
bitch we're going all day i'm going to tell you about what i'm going to do tomorrow i'm going to
tell you when i'm going gonna dinner tonight yeah no i understand
i wanted to add something more though thor max i'm curious were you having these thoughts and
feelings in december when brune was seven bucks yeah no seven bucks was okay-ish. I was better at seven bucks. But still, yes, I was still having concerns that, like, you know,
is that the – what I really want to see is that speculative multiplier
go down and down and down even though the price is going up and up and up, right?
right yeah because and i and i didn't mean to like call you out like that but like
Yeah.
And I didn't mean to, like, call you out like that, but, like,
so my i've been managing money for people for uh going on 15 years now and i i notice this it's
everybody does i do it myself is that when when your investment is down you find all these problems
oh this is that and that's the promise of that when it simply
it's just the market's down you know it's just the tide is out right now and the tide will come
back in and um um so you know it's ruined at a dollar 30 it's like okay it's easy to nitpick
and all these things are wrong it shouldn't be like this. But I would argue even without Thorify collapsing, without
any problems, if everything was going well, I bet you the price would still be in this range,
a dollar or two type thing. The whole market's down. It affects all of us.
And conversely, when things turn around, the market goes back up, people might try to celebrate the fundamentals on door chain, but it could just very well simply be money just flowing back into the sector and have nothing to do with our fundamentals.
So there's that to think about, too.
Yeah, yeah.
I just want to make sure we're not just a commodity that's constantly being harvested.
You're bang on. You're absolutely right. That's why I've been getting so worked up about having our front end, because that is where I see it going.
You know, if we're just in this constant race to the bottom on fees and how do we compete with quotes and these other front ends it's like we're just commoditized like the the the front ends they don't care look at um
well i don't want to call anyone out but you guys have seen you know these front ends of routing
trades through centralized exchanges and those trades are getting frozen and we're not talking
about a few grand we're talking about like some people have had million dollar trades get frozen in these
centralized front ends, centralized back ends, I guess.
And it's like, what are these wallets doing?
And because for me, that was my whole belief with ThorChain is that wallets will only integrate
DEXs, not sexes as well.
But here we are.
So, you know, it's made me kind of reevaluate stuff and rethink about things.
And, but yeah, from this race to the bottom on fees, then we're just, we're commoditized.
That's why commodities are crappy investment.
And, you know, we need to have some pricing power.
And, you know, having, in my opinion, having our front end to have some pricing power. And in my opinion, having our front
end gives us some pricing power.
Add a little context here. Because I've come to learn and XRP people and understand
like XRP did well, but they've been treading pretty steady in this market. But then the
biggest news dropped, something that they've been working towards forever
is that like Ripple applied for the baking license, right?
Like this has been like one of their central things
that they've been aiming for.
Huge, unbelievably bullish news for their perspective, right?
And the price hasn't really done much at all,
which, you know, and I think,
and like, I think that goes to your point, Kenton,
like, yeah, it sucks. Like the things are not going right now done much at all which you know and i think and like i think that goes to your point kenton like
yeah it sucks like the things are not going right now and it's easy just to pick and look at problems but i think this is a general wider sentiment um and that was a good point you made
about commodities thormax hey guys i forgot we're on the cusp of what was self-labeled as crypto week
in dc and we should probably act accordingly.
There's going to be some eyeballs there within odds are.
Well,
I'm only,
all I can do is try and get the word out.
You know what I mean?
So if anyone wants to do this with me,
just do it yourself or hit me up in DMS.
Let's I don't know.
I mean,
for me,
it's like,
it's because I am an educator with thor chain and
i've been in this community and when you tell someone about a project like yeah you're like
from their mind like okay obviously this guy has is shilling something to me he wants to be
successful right but in my mind it's like well hot damn like okay like yeah i'm saying we have
a good product but would you please do me the common courtesy of tell me where I'm wrong? Like, where are we?
Where's the mistake?
You know, like, tell me where I'm wrong.
Like, show me the logical areas where this is just not the biggest zero.
Gotcha.
And that's and that wasn't directly a response to ShapeShift.
It's just me ranting a little bit.
No, no, sir.
No, we ought to feel free to speak or just shut the hell up.
That's how I was raised. So if I open my mouth and I'm mistaken, fucking correct me. But the bottom line is, it's time to get going. We got to have a specific task and purpose and function. And perhaps it's not talking about Thorchain. Perhaps it's agnostically talking about each specific value proposition.
We're bringing the trust wallet.
We're bringing to ledger.
We're bringing to phantom.
We're bringing to Saul and,
and divide and conquer.
It's a tried and true method divide and conquer.
if any of us were capable of explaining and having people comprehend ThorChain, damn it, it would have happened long ago.
And if ThorChain was made to break, it would have long been to zero and crumbled into pieces long, long ago, like long ago.
So let's have a mind trust collective and start exuding the value propositions we offer to each specific
integrated partner intentionally and move forward thusly i may be wrong thanks for letting me steal
the mic again guys um and this is something that i learned i feel really naive i feel so stupid
thinking this um i was thinking i would go to various ecosystems and and promote thor chain to
them but what i mean various as in you know plural like no like i i've come to know the xrp community
and i'm gonna just stay with them and i'm gonna just there's so many people there's so many
projects there's so many different personalities there it requires so much effort to just learn
and appreciate what they're doing and understanding
the nuances of their ecosystem and where we can slot in that I'm just going to be an emissary
probably with XRP. And I've actually bought an XRP now for a while. Um, so if anyone there who
is familiar with Solana or whatever, Tron, if you want to be an emissary, just be that person and just slot in there.
Because I've got like relationships now with these people and I like them a lot. Like I actually look
forward to talking to them. It's not, I'm not coming at it from a business perspective. I
actually like enjoy their presence and hearing their ideas. And so I think that's what we need
to do guys. We just, we just need to be emissaries
because they had no idea they had no idea it happened
hey i just noticed ck cardano was in the audience and i challenged him to get his ass up and speak
a few words please i don't i don't i don't want to put people on the spot shakeshift someone
maybe people might just want to dip in and listen.
no pressure.
Uh, I,
I know and respect him enough that he's without fear.
Okay.
All right.
He might be driving.
Who knows?
Right.
I don't give it,
but yeah,
I understand.
What do you think Patriot?
Should we,
if C-Cart Codono doesn't come up,
should we start wrapping this up?
Yeah.
You know,
I think we might want to give the Regiran,
um, what he wants. If he does not come up, you know i think we might want to give the regiran um what he wants if he does not come up you know what i mean we'll end the space you can listen to
hans and jp and whatever you want to do because we're not good enough for you we can do it i guess
whatever sorry regiran we got uh ck cardeno did come up to speak. Oh, so sad for you.
Go ahead, CK.
Go ahead, Cardano.
Go ahead, man.
Good morning, guys.
What's up, room?
I hope you all had a happy fourth.
I hope everyone attending right now has all the fingers and toes that they had a couple days ago.
Never ceases to surprise me with all that.
But, yeah, man.
So I'm just kind of,
you know, listening in, maybe if Shapeshift could give me a broader context, but I guess just as a
general comment, you know, I see ThorChain is hosting this. For folks that don't know,
although everyone on this call probably does know, ThorChain is creating essential infrastructure
for freedom technology and tools for things like Maya Protocol,
ThorSwap, Leodex, Shapeshift, these things that are going to give our global community
the functionality of the Coinbase's and the Binance that, quite frankly, could be doing
the paper Bitcoin stuff, right? If they have a 48-hour settlement time and all this business,
the fact of the matter is, the more of these supplies that move into our custody, and when we can peer to peer the
situation, the markets get more honest, spot prices rise commensurate with demand. Because
the way that the centralized exchanges are gaming the price of it is if you have enough float to
carry like all the retail inflows, you just have to update dashboards, right? If you have a billion
dollars in cash, and you're running a small coffee shop and you know you're never going to see a
million dollars worth of flow, then fuck it, right? You don't have to be honest because you have a
billion dollars in the back. That's what Coinbase is doing. Coinbase is shaking retail by decoupling
the spot price from supply and demand, right? They're not moving UTXOs if a million dollars
comes in if they know they've got a billion dollars on the books.
And when they're custodying for all these folks, I mean, it is what it is.
But that's a little bit farther afield.
Shapeshift, bro, thanks for giving me the shout out.
Is there a particular sort of piece of the discussion that you were maybe wanting to vibe on or maybe discuss as this chat kind of wraps up?
I think inherently your most powerful weapon is to invoke a sense of community
and agnostic interoperability.
It's my wish.
I feel you, bro.
Oh, yeah, 100%.
To me, that really is the secret sauce. I think we lose sight of the plot if we devolve into sort of the toxic maximalist thought, whatever that is, right? If it's a Max Keiser Bitcoin flavor or it's an XRP or whatever, I think anyone that has that maximalist tunnel vision is going to do themselves a disservice.
Tunnel Vision is going to do themselves a disservice because we see when you look at the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, right?
That's a $7.8 trillion with a T dollar lending and borrowing just in housing, right?
That's basically 3x Bitcoin's current market cap.
And we've got this crypto week coming in Capitol Hill.
So what I'm trying to say, guys, if that one little piece of the real estate portfolio is 3x Bitcoin's total market cap,
the game is afoot, right? And there's a cup runneth over. You could look at cup runneth over
and a rising tide lifts all ships. It's basically the same thing. Imagine if you're a bar that only
has 100 goblets in it, and then the sky starts raining wine. Eventually, those 100 goblets in it, and then the sky starts, you know, you know, raining wine,
eventually, those 100 goblets you have aren't going to be able to catch all the rain.
That's the cash going into the 21 million units of Bitcoin, right? And then the runneth over is going to happen, because people are going to go, hey, I have to put a billion dollars for every,
you know, 2x, you know, to double my money in Bitcoin. Whereas instead of a billion,
I can put a million in Litecoin for a 2x. Because instead of a billion, I can put a million in Litecoin for a
2X because instead of a billion dollar market cap, it's a million. Obviously pulling the numbers,
the point is the magnitude, right? And where the multiples are. So as Bitcoin is creating this new
world, that openness to interoperability and free markets is going to take the force. So
I think when we see toxicity, we see some of the darker pieces of the division in religion,
right?
Where religion really can be about unity and love and building and really positive, beautiful
things.
But as Shapeshift was saying, these same things, it's a shadow and light, right?
They can be used to divide us.
And so I think if we say, okay, we all see the capacity and the necessity for freedom,
tools, and technology, We all appreciate Bitcoin. We
would be fools if we thought Bitcoin wasn't going to be a major player, right? But we would also be
fools if we didn't recognize Bitcoin operates at seven transactions per second. Bitcoin is already
having fundamental disagreements with core development, right? So do you really think in
the age of AI, where six months from now,, you know AI is going to be capable of things that it isn't today.
Meanwhile, traditional finance is three to five business days.
Meanwhile, blockchain is the solution.
But we know the folks that are developing Bitcoin, literally, they just are not fast and nimble enough.
So if we really are honest and we come to this conversation with open eyes, we see, wow, you know what?
Bitcoin really can just be Bitcoin.
We can truly satisfy all parties here. Let's not break Bitcoin. Let's not introduce potential vulnerabilities
or ways of congesting the network, right? And let that be. And then we get the additional
privacy scalability while maintaining our self-custody of Bitcoin with these other assets. And I think ThorChain giving the global community
in a decentralized, no leader sort of approach, the ability to have that free market commerce
develop, which will be a check in the balance on these centralized entities and actors,
I think it's exceptionally compelling. It's something that has never been before, because now we have an asset that no government or country controls. And there are now ways
globally to distribute that asset. Meanwhile, the largest, most powerful nations in the world
are realizing this has value. So what we have now is technology that allows us individually
all around the world, no matter our context, the ability to interact with an asset the what is becoming the
premier unit of account so if you are that brilliant young musician in india that maybe
you know your father never met you know never saw more than a thousand dollars in their life
but suddenly you've got a banger of a track that would make kanye west blush with bitcoin you can
record that track on your cell phone release it it, and monetize it in global assets.
You know what I mean?
That have value everywhere.
That have value in America and China and every market.
These things are new to the world.
So, yeah, bro.
Awesome conversation.
Interoperability is the way free markets win.
Can I put a quick cherry on top of that whipped cream?
I think it's not been responded to.
I've asked a number of math PhDs and respectable brains alike.
Every week, micro strategies, all these ETFs, all these Xs,
sequestering Bitcoin,
are sequestering Bitcoin.
And it doesn't matter until the supply and demand factor wears in
and then here we go we're decentralized liquidity pool permissionless 24 7 365 it's going to matter
we're here we're doing something noble our devs should be commended constantly and fortified and uh i think we got
this guys we should act like gm godspeed hey thanks a lot i appreciate it yeah go ahead
no it's great i think i think there's a we should wrap it up on that um what do you think pat
patriot i agree yeah i agree i agree let's give Captain Sparrow what he wants and let's wrap this
thing up, man. Thank you, everybody.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks, guys.
Until next week.
Follow the RuneBond account,
guys. Bond your Rune. You know all the things.
Keep an eye out for Maya Protocol. The
first privacy decentralized
access to privacy. Remember,
they're going to need us. be there for them when the,
when the matrix comes. Okay. Okay.
All right guys.
Shift Maya rolling out next week. Be ready. CK. I'm looking at you.
Okay. Bye guys.
Right on. Bye guys.
