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Chads’ Lounge with Rujira – What’s Coming?
Recorded: Aug. 16, 2025 Duration: 2:47:03Space Recording
Short Summary
ThorChain and Rujira are making significant strides in the decentralized finance space with new project launches, innovative partnerships, and a focus on enhancing user experience through automated trading strategies and yield optimization. The upcoming marketing fund and launchpad for new tokens further emphasize their commitment to growth and community engagement.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Can you hear me?
I can hear you. All right. You want me to get the intro this time yeah yeah you go for it all right guys welcome welcome welcome this is gonna
be a banger of a space today hope everyone's pumped up i know i'm pumped up guys let's get
this show started so for those who are new th thor chain is a decentralized exchange that enables you to swap
bitcoin with thousands of other cryptocurrencies all layer one native tokens there's no bridges
no wrap tokens all from your self-custody wallet the initial ethos of blockchain tech it's the real
deal there is no kyc on thor chain kyc means kill your customer. There's none of that. It is permissionless.
ThorChain's token is called Rune and that's spelled R-U-N-E. You do not need to buy or hold
Rune in order to place a swap on ThorChain. The fees are deducted from the swap you are using.
So for example, if you're going BTC to Ethereum, all the gas fees into meritorial transactions are taken from the initial starting asset, which would be Bitcoin.
This rune, the yield that you get from that goes to liquidity pools and nodes.
There are no block rewards on ThorChain.
100% of the yield is real.
There is another token on ThorChain.
It's called TCY.
This token is kind of like a preferred stock.
10% of the protocol's revenue goes to these tokens. So if you deposit crypto into savers or took a loan on ThorChain, make sure to claim your TCY token so you can start collecting this
yield and anyone can buy the TCY token as well. To swap on ThorChain and a little side note here,
we're going to be making our own interface soon. Shout out, little alpha there.
But in the interim time, go to ThorChain.org, click on swap.
You'll see all the wallets and websites that use ThorChain.
You can choose the interface that you want to use.
Rujira, the topic of today's space,
they are building decentralized Binance
and it is mooning today.
Rujira is on fire. They are building decentralized Binance and it is mooning today.
Ruji is on fire.
Rujira is the smart contact layer of ThorChain.
Okay, it's being rolled out as we speak.
I am so excited for today's space.
You guys have no idea.
Speaking of decentralized Binance, if you hold Rune on Binance or any centralized exchange,
you need to withdraw that immediately and put it into self-custody
because those tokens are being used to short Rune
and drive the price down on all of us.
So get it off a centralized exchange,
put it in self-custody.
And then once you do that,
look to bonding your Rune.
Use RuneBond.com in order to do that,
or .org, I'm sorry, I misspoke.
And you can connect your wallet and bond your
root do it if you guys see what's coming you'll do it soon i'm telling you there's a thor chain
community discord and telegram you can join to learn all about thor chain and make friends to
find the links go to thor chain uh at thor community account on x guys let's get this party
started you need to repost this space whether you're listening live or this is a recording
This is gonna be a big one today. All right
We got to get as many people in here as possible. What we are building is truly incredible
No worries if you are someone new to Thor chain or if you're anywhere on your Thor chain or regera journey
This space is made specifically for you. Any and all questions will be addressed
We will go from complicated to simple do Do not be intimidated. With that being said, guys, let's get this
party started. My name's Patriot Sounds. I am a content creator, educator of ThorChain.
Been doing it for five years. I love what we're building. I am so pumped up. I'm going to kick
it to Kenton. Go ahead. Good, sir. Thanks, Patriot. I like your anchos, man. You do great
at them. My name is Kenton Ralph Toes. I have a fund that is dedicated to investing in Rune and running nodes on ThorChain. So I'm a node operator and bond provider on ThorChain. And I want to give you guys a little bit of alpha.
I just, Scorch and I just finished the draft version of ADR 21 to, uh, uh, to get a marketing
fund approved by the nodes.
Uh, we're requesting 5% of their revenue to go to this fund, just like the dev fund,
uh, so that we can put money towards marketing and sales to get people to go to the new website,
fix the PR and branding of ThorChain's reputation,
get ThorChain into the research platforms, all that good stuff. Everything everyone's been
begging for the last few years. So hopefully that ADR, you'll see it in Discord next week
open to commentary period and whatnot. Yeah, so I don't want to talk about it on this space. Let's
talk about it next week or something.
I'm just letting you guys know.
It's the first time I'm saying this publicly.
So I'll give you guys some,
this is your treat for tuning in live.
And I'll pass it on to Pragmatic Monkey.
Hey guys, glad to be with you.
And what an intro, Patriot.
Beautiful.
I love the energy always.
So I'm one of the co-founder and project lead of Frujira,
and I do pretty much everything that is not related to code directly.
So glad to be here with you and answer any question
and tell you a lot about what we have been doing lately and what's coming.
Awesome.
Let's go to Nami.
Hey, guys.
JP here from Nami.
We are building on Rujira, utilizing
all these beautiful products the core team is building.
And yeah, we just released our uh unofficial uh rune lst y rune and also the ytcy index um
as well as the wg right index so happy to be here and uh yeah perfect man um and then we have calc
and i know it is late for you calc i believe it's very early in the morning so we're gonna i think
we're probably gonna start with you but go ahead and go with introduction, buddy.
Cool. Cheers.
Hi, I'm James. I'm the CTO and basically all rounder for Calc.
We are building automated on-chain trading strategies,
just like NAMI on top of all the awesome primitives
that the Ruggiero team's been building.
And we are currently
uh our contracts are currently in audit and we should be going to mainly sometime in the next week or two so we're super super pumped okay um i think we got everyone introduced right now
i'm super excited you guys so i kenton i'm thinking we'll start with calc and then we'll
just kind of go from there does that sound good sounds good
to me yeah all right all right Cal go for it the floor is yours give everyone
a rundown of what you're doing and why people should be excited cool awesome so
I'm not sure but how many people would be familiar with calc uh we were originally deployed on kajira that was sort
of our initial home and uh we've kind of been close with the kajira team and and watch them grow
and build uh all their great products um as over the last couple of years and so initially calc was
sort of born out of the uh the whole lunar collapse. And we wanted to try to provide tooling to sort of retail as well as more sophisticated
investors to be able to make trades and manage their money in a slightly less emotional way.
So set up, you know, automations and then kind of trust that when they set those automations
up, they were thinking clearly and trust them to perform in ways that they don't have to
be there all the time supervising their money and that they're not going to make emotional
decisions that don't work out in the long run.
So we built like a DCA basically and like streaming swaps tool that helped people move
between positions over time and it was quite configurable
but it was sort of quite centralized and sort of focused on swapping from one token to another
under different conditions and over different time scales but the the latest evolution of calc
is a lot more general as a platform so basically it's it's a set of smart contracts that you can create trading strategies.
And those trading strategies are basically built up of nodes.
And each node is like an action or a condition.
So it's like do a swap, set a limit order, check if this token is a higher price than
this token. There's a whole bunch of sort of small pieces of logic
and action that you can build strategies out of.
And then the end user kind of has all the sales
over like when things happen, what happens.
And so it's like a very much a customizable
automated trading strategy platform
that we've built um and
continue to build is that just on the gas assets of thor chain like the 10 different blockchains
or can it or is dex segregation uh available to that it's so it's on both the L1 pools. So you can deposit.
So it's using both secured assets and native assets.
So you can deposit to a strategy contract directly from Ethereum and Bitcoin.
All of the trades will happen either on like the Ruggiero order book or on via the Thorchain,
underlying Thorchain L1 pools. So we've enabled you to have access to liquidity
from both of those sources.
Okay, but the pool has to exist on ThorChain.
Those are the only tokens.
Wait, sorry.
Yeah, so the only tokens that you can use in Calc are the ones that are exist on a ThorChain liquidity pool.
You can use all of those tokens as well as any native token on the Ruggiero app layer.
So for example, the NAMI token or the liquidity token or the RUJI token.
Yeah, got it.
Got it.
No worries.
Yeah, I think that's I guess that's the high level sort
of pitch.
Would you like to dive into anything more specific?
Kenton, go ahead.
No, you go ahead, Patriot.
Well, okay, so
if you could just give a rundown
someone right now who's listening
if they have a similar
what is the unique proposition
here? Why should they use Calc over
something that might do a similar function?
What is
why is it better? Is it because it's not on a centralized exchange?
Could you, could you break that down a little bit? Like why would you want to attract someone
who's a third party from a different ecosystem? Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. I guess the,
there's, there's not really that much that exists out there that does this in, like you mentioned, a decentralized non-KYC way.
Right. So, yeah, you can maybe set up something similar with a centralized exchange,
but you're obviously handing a lot of the control and the keys over to, you know,
centralized exchanges, which we've seen bears a lot of risk.
So this is kind of enabling a lot of the tool sets that exist in centralized exchange offerings
to, you know, far more like secure and native blockchain like ways of doing things.
So all of the logic of your strategy lives in smart contracts on chain.
There's no trust relationship with any external third party you're only trusting the the underlying blockchain and the code that's being audited currently
by Halborn so the the trust relationships are completely like as native as as blockchain gets
I guess so basically like like on Binance someone can program their own trade bot, your own trading algorithm.
That's what Calc is doing on ThorChain and Regera.
You can create your own trading algorithm, your own trading bot.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
So like the strategies that you build dictate a whole bunch of things.
So you can dictate at what frequency the trades or the orders are set.
You can dictate under what conditions they get set or skipped, for example.
There's just so many, each sort of action or condition has a bunch of inputs that you
can customize.
And then on top of that, you can kind of arrange them in almost like unlimited,
you know, orders.
So, I mean, you can build like a very simple example would be like a DCA strategy,
right?
You just want to swap from this token into that token every 30 minutes or every
30 days or every two weeks.
But then you can kind of like start to build on that and say, okay, well,
actually want to build a grid bot.
And so every 30 minutes, if the price of, you know, Ruji is, is larger than two
Rune, then sell Ruji into Rune.
But if the, if the inverse is true, then sell Rune into Ruji, right?
And so then you've all, all of a sudden you just set your, your assets in this
smart contract and you've like created, like like created like you've found some exposure to price
action without having to take any action at all and I mean that's those are two very simple
versions of what strategies are actually possible and we're actually really quite excited to see
just what our users come up with because there's so many different ways that you can put those things together.
Actually, that sparked two questions.
One is, playing off what you just said,
so will people actually be able,
because this is all open source, right?
Will people be able to see the other algorithms
and bots that other people have created
and copy and paste them if they want?
And the second part of my question is, can you tie into like perps trading
in the lending?
Like, is it all the features that Rujira has to offer you can somehow put into
this algorithm?
Yeah.
So to answer the first question, yeah, all of the strategies are stored on
chain and all the data on chain is obviously totally
publicly available so the yes you can totally like see what other people are doing get inspiration
for that create like just totally copy their configuration and generate a strategy for
yourself that's doing the exact same thing or you could tweak it you know in certain ways to
to just adjust it so um yeah i think like'll be, there'll definitely be a lot of like template strategies
that we'll build and help you sort of onboard the Calc.
And then I think hopefully our community
just really gets creative with it and shares them too.
The second question, what was the second question?
All right. Yeah.
So, so yeah, the way that we've built it is that like the, there's like a generalized, English. They'll be able to access. Yep. All right. Yeah.
So, yeah, the way that we've built it is that like there's like a generalized strategy
execution layer, I guess.
And that's kind of agnostic to the actual actions that are happening underneath.
And then we have built, you know, like the actual rappers to interact with different
parts of the underlying primitives that Ruggiero has built.
So we only offer interactions with particular parts of the platform that we've actually
developed the implementation for.
So at the moment, it's purely just swaps on either fin or on the underlying 4chan order book, limit orders on the Rogera order books,
and just sending assets to different addresses
and executing other contracts.
So those are kind of the four sort of actions
that we have at the moment.
And those are going through order at the moment.
But I think as soon as we have the contracts live
and the front end live, and we're starting to like,
once we get this first cut out and live and tested or and running really well, the next like, the next thing to do is just totally start picking up on all the new primitives that are showing up in the Ruggiero ecosystem. So I think the strategy is going to become more and more more advanced and capable as we go on.
So I'm curious, you know, the hedge funds that run, you know, the higher PhDs and mathematicians that come up with these trading algorithms.
Like it's extremely secretive.
You know, all kinds of NDAs are signed and they're very cautious about sharing their data
on this algorithm because if it works, it really works and they don't want anyone else to use it.
And then because if everybody else gets access to it and starts using it, then it stops working.
So I'm curious if traders are coming up with their algorithms, they don't want other people
to see it and use it because then they take their alpha basically. Is there a way, a pathway to make the algorithms not
public? Is there a way to like protect people's privacy with them? So they don't, yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think that maybe there's an avenue to providing or storing strategies in a more encrypted way.
I jump in.
So we also strike a partnership with a protocol called Redacted, which is going to build the privacy layer for Rojira.
And what they will allow you to do is effectively create a shield account where you can just
deposit font into it and then interact with any other apps on the app layer, including Calc.
And whatever happened from this shield account,
nobody can see the detail of it.
It's protected by zero knowledge proof.
And at an aggregate level, people
will still see this contract or this X or Y position,
but everybody's position in coming all together,
and nobody can see the detail of anything
other than the aggregated balance of the contract.
So that would provide a way to do private DCEA and other strategy with Calc.
Yeah, I think, I mean, yeah, that would be fantastic.
I think, yeah, I think the problem of solving the privacy issue is is probably outside of our
particular domain but yeah if if regera layer is is providing these tools or other protocols are
providing those tools then that would be absolutely fantastic because i agree like the the publicity
thing is is an issue i do also think though that a lot of the calc strategies are not necessarily living in the same sort of family
of trading algorithms that like hedge fund trading algorithms are like they're not quite as
complex and as as um i guess detailed and sensitive as some of those algorithms are
um it's they are the building blocks, although you can combine the building blocks in all sorts
of super imaginative ways, it is still constrained by some things that you can only do, that
you can't do outside of smart contracts.
So we can't just be as responsive and as specific with the algorithms implementation as like
something that's totally running off chain and is purely like private.
Yeah.
So there are some particular constraints that I think that, you know, the privacy
concerns of the algorithms are probably a little lower.
Like there's not so much IP that will be being built into these algorithms. I think they're more like just useful ways for people to set up automation rather than
to like really get a fine edge on like huge or like high trading level algorithms, I guess.
There's kind of two different families of trading algorithm and we're kind of not in
the same boat as those hedge fund types.
Yeah.
So if I just if I'm trying to trade the ETH to Bitcoin ratio and just certain points,
it's not like anyone's going to front run me or scalp me or anything like that.
It's a pretty simple, pretty simple thing.
Exactly.
Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah, okay.
Pragmatic, did you, this redacted,
is it something like, is being worked on?
It's gonna happen for sure.
It's gonna take a year or two.
Will people have to pay, like would Calc have to then,
does everyone have to pay to use it?
Or is it kind of default?
It's just free for all the different...
No, we will have a fee.
So it's an independent project.
So it will not be part of the RUJI Alliance.
And then we have their own fee on top.
So fee then, though, we will work like super closely.
And we'll have to find the optimal that's what is this extra premium people are willing to pay for privacy.
And the idea is we'll allow to include it everywhere, like from the UI effectively.
So vision here is to have like a toggle, like a privacy, private, not private.
And almost like you can just toggle it.
It will add a little privacy fee on top, but then you can do your action in a private way.
So that's the end vision.
The team building that, so as they had already a live deployment on Arbitrum, so EVM contract,
they need to port that to Cosmosm.
They have started this process, but they were looking to raise raise capital which has been taking a bit of their
time we are trying to accelerate that uh with a probably a grant or something like that like that
or an investment we'll do ourselves from from the treasury and uh and then uh yeah so again like
i really don't like when people ask for timeline because every time we give some uh it's software
development it never
goes planned and then people get pissed off but that's something that we should have uh live
before uh i would really expect before the end of the year and hopefully before that but uh
no hard commitment on that perfect awesome and guys this is really exciting stuff i mean to break
to really zoom out here this is decentralized binance being made in real time. I mean, legitimately,
I'm not, it's not like a meme or something like this. This is all happening in real time.
All the information is on chain. And I've talked to Kenton in the background. I mean,
that's just the really exciting thing. The big difference, the big zero to one between what we
are collectively building between ThorChain and Rugg Regera when you juxtapose it against a centralized exchange is that all data is on chain. There's no funny business.
There really is. It's not like you know on a centralized exchange what's happening in the
background, right? So absolutely incredible. And these are the early days. Early, early days is
being built in real time. I'm not someone who likes to get price
projections or anything like that but i think we have something truly magnificent being built i am
so unbelievably appreciative and thankful and excited for everyone in this room please share
this space let's get some more people in here they need to hear this information whether this
is live or the recording share the space um calc that was awesome
i really appreciate that that sounds really really cool and i think a lot of people are going to be
really excited to use the toolings that you have i mean that sounds like a really good emancipator
for everyone right because as kenton was talking about usually these are tools that are um not
really provided by you know the i person and being-chain, it's going to be interesting to see the rapid onset of innovation
as people build on top of each other.
So that's really, really cool.
Okay, I think we did pretty good on Calc.
This is an open conversation, you guys, Nami, Pragmatic Calc.
If you guys want to jump in at any time and comment on something else, please feel free.
But I think we'll
kick it to nami real quick go ahead nami um we'll get you going hey just before we go to nami itself
i just want to say i have used calc extensively on kojira because i think one thing everybody
needs to understand is it makes possible make it like for everyone to to get in and out of positions in a smart and calculated way i
guess that was also the the slogan back then i don't know if it's still but yeah like you don't
need to ape in and out you don't need to lose uh i uh value i i used a lot the weighted dca in and
out so that if something pumps you sell sell a bit more, if it slows down
you sell a bit less, like there were so many cool tools
so yeah, definitely looking forward to
that, I just want to hit it out here
very helpful
and it will make you money if you use it
correctly, for sure
I echo that, and I have
to say I also love the weighted
DCA feature, which
is just great, like effectively if you want to buy
a token or sell you can just set some parameters to define how aggressive or not you want to be
and then you you effectively have a trade-off between time of execution and uh price optimization
and you can so go for a long longer term time scale strategy you can set a
fairly high amplitude for the move and if the price deviate from the moment you start to the
upside and you are selling if it's just a bit you will be selling very little but it gets further
and further away from your starting point you will be selling more and more and then you can loop
strategies and say okay now my proceeds I want to reinvest them but uh you do the other way around i want to invest more
when it drops a lot and that that's very cool because then you can create loops that just keep
trading from themselves and and it's very good as a user like if you are patient and you play the
long-term volatility in crypto there is money to be made there and it's
a it's also very helpful for the protocol because it stimulates economic activity creates recurring
swaps
so very excited yeah yeah thanks thanks guys i just uh just one thing i guess like personally
um thanks thanks for saying all that.
And I can't wait to show you guys what Calc V2 is going to be capable of.
It's a whole new level of functionality.
And the other thing that's really cool, I think, is that Calc itself actually takes no fees on trades.
It only takes fees on withdrawals from the strategy contracts so and you
can update your strategy contracts so you can just park a bunch of capital in there
trade a whole bunch of of tokens and realize a whole bunch of upside from your strategies
and pay zero extra fees until you actually withdraw that that capital so that's something like
we we really want to incentivize people to develop and use these strategies over
the long term. That's new info to me. I thought last time we discussed fee structure, it was still
a fee on each swap. This is actually very interesting because it means you can also,
the lower the fee, of course, the lower the friction and the more high frequency stuff you can do with
as long as you set rules that make your strategy profitable.
That means you can start to do, well, have more, higher velocity strategy on smaller
time frames.
This is very cool.
Glad to hear.
Yeah, totally.
That's the point, right?
Is to, is to get people using the strategies to strategies to do a lot on chain and not have to always be factoring the fact that they're paying for that automation.
So, yeah, now we can't wait. We can't wait to go live. We're super, super pumped.
And once we have the affiliate framework in place, or it's a referral in that case, you could even monetize that without extra cost for the user and still like take up to 10% cut on protocol
fees on your site.
So that's, I think that's also a very good way to, to maximize activity and
while still monetizing your, your product.
Yeah, totally.
We, we actually don't have to wait.
We already built into our product, I guess the, the ability to pass in an
affiliate address.
So we can totally like incentivize all sorts of integrators, I guess, to share.
So it would be two level.
You will have your own incentive program to incentivize third party to use your product,
but you will also be able to put in a CALC referral code in there and then take a cut
of RUGGIRA protocol revenue that will go to
calc yeah so that's the vision uh with i mean it's still again like this hasn't been designed
like i've just specced out how ideally uh i would like that to work uh now we need to see in terms
of contract how feasibility is because the latest system is very complex
but if we can make it to the specs it will be very very powerful and this will allow that
to some form it will be there for sure to the extent i want i don't know but i have made the
public there is an issue on the gith labs where Labs where you can read and learn a bit more about the design of, the Envision design of this framework.
Man, this is so exciting.
And it's kind of funny that we're just learning from each other live on the Twitter spaces about all the new things that are coming out, which is cool.
That's how we do it.
That's how we do it, Boyd.
We get frigging Alpha dropping up here all the time
Kenton literally started the show off by dropping his own alpha now we just figure out alpha as we go
That's how it rolls on these spaces you guys. That's why you gotta listen either recording the live thing
I'm actually shared something up top
I made a post about
Ruggira and perps is really taken off you guys and it's only got 101 people at the time now it's up to 105
Absolutely incredible for those who can't see it because if they're listening to the recording you can go to rujira
Perps.com that's r-u-j-i-p-e-r-p-s
Dot com rujira perps.com you can click stats
Um get involved
Really cool you guys.
I'm really excited.
Kelk, you said you're going to go live soon.
When do you expect to go live?
Our contracts, smart contracts are currently going through audit phase.
So that should wrap up early next week.
And then there's sort of two
paths to going live for us at this stage we're hoping to to do some uh like native integration
with the regera front end as well as build out our own um front end and so uh those two sort of
paths are currently underway um but as as pm outlined before, pretty, pretty
weary of giving hard dates because we
don't want to let anyone down.
But hopefully sort of a month at most,
you should be able to jump in and use
couch strategies in all sorts of cool ways.
But how about this?
You expect to be fully up and running
by the end of the year?
Oh, yeah, definitely.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Is there anything else you wanna go over
that we haven't talked about?
No, actually, there was actually,
I think we've covered most of it.
Yeah, obviously like there's a lot,
but I think like we could enumerate all the details
of everything and it would just wouldn't,
we imagine you will return on all that time would decline pretty quickly.
So I think we've covered the most important stuff.
We could do a repeat.
We could do a repeat episode, man, as you get more developed, as more things come online.
We'll do another space and we'll have you up and we'll talk about it again, man.
So I love it.
Very good.
Amazing. So I'll jump in Very good. Amazing.
So I'll jump in.
We were starting to talk about NAMI.
So what's NAMI?
I think we, a little history lesson.
We started on Kojira with a vision of a yield optimizer slash very straightforward,
like a sustainable anchor from the UI, UX, earn single-sided yield that everybody can
understand simply to raw end users.
Now we are here, so we went through all the ups and downs, built up a very nice and talented team
controlling the whole stack. So now it's getting more and more complicated as we have added more
and more products. So I think there's three things that we can mention right now that we're working on.
One, which is live already, is Ruji Index slash Nami Index.
You will see the account somewhere.
Go forward for the index news, which is basically bringing baskets of assets, rebalancing or not rebalancing.
There's both on-chain.
And we have three live at the moment. One is RJI, the Rojira index, which basically covers all the tokens, all the native ThoughtChain slash Rojira tokens that are on Rojira networks, let's ThoughtChain.
And it's not a rebalancing index.
So this will track the growth, the vertical and the horizontal growth of the whole Rojira
ecosystem.
So whenever there's a new token, we will try to add it to the index
with a specific weight.
And then over time,
if you are a holder of RGI,
you will participate in both vertical
and horizontal growth of the network.
YRUNE and YTTY are,
yeah, kind of, we say,
if to YRUNE, we say the unofficial RUNE LST
because it's a bit funny.
It is a trading strategy
around the economic relationship of rune and TCY.
One with 80% rune and 20% TCY,
and the other one with 20% rune and 80% TCY.
So they are mirrored.
And they receive TCY staking rewards
and as well trade around a 1% TVL difference.
So it's kind of like a, yeah, it's a planning strategy that is supercharged by TCY staking rewards.
So we are drawing everywhere.
We are using Eurigid Trade.
We are using the TCY staking rewards.
We are drawing from everywhere.
We're trying to do everything.
Hopefully at some point use calc inside.
As soon as they're alive,
we're starting to look in
to optimize the execution of the rebalances
and so on.
So yeah, we are everywhere.
This is Ruge Index.
So is it fair to kind of,
so NAMI is a suite of proprietary indexes,
like you guys create these indexes and offer to people,
and then calc would be like, if I want to go build my own index,
I can go use calc and create my own strategy.
Is that a good way to compare the two?
I don't know.
Let's say we create an index. We also have on the roadmap
to create custom, like for people to create their own, but we will use calc on a contract level to
optimize the execution of swapping and so on because you can do some streaming swaps, whatever.
You don't need to do a market order. For now, it's a market order because otherwise, yeah,
you can't really do it, which is always
the worst type of order, I guess.
Yeah.
And so it's going back to your rune TCY indexes.
You said it's 80, 20.
So that's by dollar value.
And then, and then so and it rebalances
once it gets 1% out of whack, and then it rebalances, is that what she said?
Yeah, correct.
So we have a crank running every minute
that checks if the weight is inside a threshold.
The threshold is set to 1 currently.
If it deviates more than 1%,
it rebalances back to the 80-20 rule.
It'll be interesting to see which one of those indexes performs over time. In theory, one should outperform the other, right? It should be a clear winner.
Yeah, very much also depends on obviously when you enter, when you want to exit,
what type of market, what's the horizon. We? Like, yeah, we will see. Same questions
that we asked ourselves. How did you see why is outperforming? How did you come up with 8020?
These pull it out of the air? Or is there any kind of reasoning behind that? Yeah, we ran a few calculations from, yeah, I mean, 50-50 doesn't really make any sense, but like from 60-40 up to 90-10.
And we found that like the backtesting on the data that we had was sufficient.
And for now we said, okay, 80-20 is the best one.
So we go with it.
But if we see that as any need of optimization,
we can obviously change the weights and optimize that one.
So we are monitoring that based on historic data now.
Cool.
And so NAMI, so this is, this index, these are live now.
So now, like these...
Yeah, these are live.
Like head to rujira.network slash index.
Very easy.
And like, take a look.
Choose your site.
Choose your pick.
I definitely recommend some RJI, which is
up thanks to the Ruji pump when the market is down. Yeah, and take a look. We have docs at
docs.namify.app, so you'll see some linking here and there. Also docs on the Ruji Network side,
Telegram groups, whatever. We are everywhere. Ask your question and we come and answer.
groups whatever we are everywhere ask your question and we come and come and answer um
very very cool um i'm gonna only hands you you had your hand up for a second did you have a
question for nami yes i had a question for nami regarding how does why tc why compared to the
auto compounder of this why in terms of like yield?
Because I read some people in the community, they say that why TCY is
performing the TCY auto compounder.
So I was wondering how they do it.
Maybe JP can expand more on that.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, now there is a mechanism to it.
So now yesterday, of the two days right now, there was quite a mechanism to it. So now, yesterday, of the two days, right now,
there was quite a lot of volatility.
So the strategy kicked in.
So I think the last three days,
we already made around 1% yield on the index.
So if you would calculate that up to a year,
so if you analyze that, that will be quite massive.
Obviously, it won't be because it goes both directions but the the tcy
ytc itself receives staking rewards for 80 percent of its value so it gets more rune every day that
will get more rune so the weight automatically drifts even if the market doesn't do something
and then you will buy back some tcy with that rune once the once the weight is different um and then
obviously the market swings come come on top and it starts to get crazy awesome perfect um this is
great i think and i think this is a great time to actually pivot to pragmatic monkey because you know
like calc and nami and you guys are you know, an aspect of the overall ecosystem,
what we're building here.
It's incredible.
And then I think Pragmatic Monkey...
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
If you give me two seconds more, we have two other products that just...
Oh, absolutely.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, one thing is Unify.
Unify will be live very soon, as soon as a lending market is out,
which will make using Rgera way more easier
because you don't need to understand from which network you're bringing on your usdc
so if you deposit usdc from whatever network you come you will get the correct version of usdc on
rogera network if you are you can opt out if you want to do some special stuff but default is you
get the right version and you are ready to go too many tickets we had i came from base but i can't see the usdc because as you might know
the usdc is the ethereum secured one that because it has the deepest steps um well this will be very
live very soon um and the third thing where once the borrowing side of the lending market is live
and we have a bit more economic activity is the yield optimizer again so single-sided yield um
are the best single-sided yield that you can find on rogera so if you give us for example your
bitcoin then we our contracts and our algorithms will calculate where it can earn the most on the network at this point in time
and allocate the funds to the correct yield sources.
And then we'll rebalance them in between.
This one is probably the most difficult product that we have
because the algorithm is very heavy
because every time you rebalance that is cost and so on and so on.
So yeah, these are like the three things.
Basically, we try to make Rojira network as easy and as understandable and as profitable for everyone.
Yeah, as it can be.
And that's, I just doubled in on that.
Rojira, I mean, all Navi products are great, honestly.
But the EARN earned product, I think,
would have a particular importance
because we already see feedback.
We are barely live now,
but the strategy page,
which is meant to act as a kind of app store
with all the strategies,
it's going to get more and more crowded over time.
It's going to be difficult for
people who are not experienced and don't know exactly what they are looking for,
to find the right product for them. And I think something like Nami Earn, a single vault where
you just deposit and you know it optimizes allocation for you, and you put BTC in, you get BTC out and you get the yield in BTC and there is no
EL loss and maybe there is a bit of a drawdown risk depending on the strategy that I
exposed but if it's done well and diversify appropriately this should not even like
eat you if you are here for more than a few days and that's gonna be tricky because then
we can just like this is the layers that's gonna be marketed to to a broader audience like just
okay you have a saving vault put your money there and earn on your usdc or on your btc and uh and
detailed strategy are more for like advanced defy user but which in the long run should be, and when I said long run, I mean in a timeframe of years,
this should, if DeFi wins,
it should be a very minority of the people.
Guys, I'm getting flashbacks of savers.
How is this different?
Saver was a terrible mechanics.
Saver was allowing you to effectively deposit single-sided,
but in the back-end it was swapping half of your deposit for Rune and providing a market with that
in the form of Sans. And then the Sans were creating these leverages of LP pool, and if Rune
wasn't outperforming whatever other asset it was based, it was paired with, it would create a liability
that could expand to infinity potentially for the protocol.
And so that was a very bad economic design because it was built on the flow data assumption
that Rune would always outperform.
Here, I mean, somebody could design a protocol with the same mechanic, but so far none of
the protocol on Ruggira have such like inflationary mechanics and, and taking this type of
bets. And then it's also the job of NAMI to, if there is a strategy that they
deem risky, not provide that to their user because they are not people who,
like they say, want something simple and they don't want to take risks.
They are not understanding.
So it's very different.
The name is the same or similar, but what matter is not the name.
The name is just a description of what it is.
And what it is, it's a saving account denominated in a given currency.
What matters is how the mechanic under the hood work.
I mean, I guess that's why we called it earn, just to not trigger the ultimate PTSD.
But to be very frank, we don't offer yield that is not there.
We use the strategies that we bet.
That's one reason, for example,
why we can't use providing liquidity to perps in the beginning.
I don't know what's the plan there.
But for now, if you deposit liquidity, you are locked for 48 hours.
And this is something that we
cannot take in account because if somebody wants to exit like one rule that we have if you want to
withdraw you need to be able to withdraw like there cannot be a time where you get locked up
because this is a product product everybody needs to understand and feel safe to use because then
we can maximize the economic value on rogera and all
the professional people doing the d5 um can use that capital or however it's allocated right okay
help me help me uh help me out here my small brain catch up so i put in one bitcoin into this
and i had one i'm serving some yields, some interest.
What happens to my one Bitcoin?
Is it being sold?
Is it being converted into something?
Yeah, let's make a simple example.
Let's say you have three lending vaults, like secured Bitcoin, secured Bitcoin from Coinbase.
And whereas from Ethereum, Ethereum whatever like you have this
three Bitcoin vaults obviously they have a different risk profile regarding the custodian
they come from but are you talking sorry sorry to interrupt you are you talking about wrapped
tokens like wrapped Bitcoin from yeah for example wrapped Bitcoin but as a secured version on
Rujira like from Ethereum.
We can have three of those lending vaults, right?
We can have the native one from Bitcoin, we can have the RAP one from Ethereum, and the
Coinbase version from Base, for example.
You can lend them out and you can earn yield on this.
Because of their different risk profiles in terms of custody and in terms of how you want like infrastructure let's say
usually they have a different yield if you look at lending markets so what we do is then okay
we take this bitcoin that you have and we check okay out of these three pools if we just use the
the lending what would be the best combination or the best split of this Bitcoin, if it needs to be split,
perhaps it's just 100% native Bitcoin,
and convert them to these three versions,
deposit them into the vaults.
We can pre-compute that because we know
the underlying math of the lending yield,
lending and borrowing yield.
So we know if we put this in, what is the output yield?
And this is how we go about it, for an example.
But you will never risk to be out of your assets.
So if you bring in Bitcoin, you will always stay in Bitcoin, even though it's different
versions.
It's understandable.
And another opportunity there, because I don't know if we will have
landing vault for the wrap version of BTC, but what we will have for sure is a
consolidated strategy for the different variant of BTC. Most likely it would be an orbital pool,
and then what NAMI can do is, part of it is allocated to a native BTC landing and part is allocated into the BTC orbital pool with those different variants.
And then you get two source of yield with, in theory, no impermanent loss.
In practice, of course, if one of the WRAP versions goes south, then you can have impermanent loss and capital loss, but then you just need to disclose that correctly to the users
and they will also be exposed to a variation of the same assets
wrapped by a centralized intermediary.
And if they are fine to take that risk to get a yield,
then it's a great product.
So, okay, I deposit my one Bitcoin.
It is being lent out for interest and I get a piece of that interest. That's
from my yield is coming from. But because this is a collateralized lending so that, how do I'm brain farting how to say this.
Like the person borrowing the Bitcoin, they will get like margin called basically like to pay back the loan.
So that for lending it out. It's an over collateralized lending market, right?
So you need to put the collateral up first and then you have this beautiful engine or car.
I guess then PM will come back to it or liquidate.
That will handle all this liquidation if it's necessary.
But yeah, if you are over your collateralization,
you get liquidated or close to,
you get liquidated and your debt is paid back.
So if in a bad scenario
where all these loans are liquidated,
it's the borrower who loses.
Kenton, the depositor, the saver, who put my one Bitcoin,
I don't lose.
I still have my Bitcoin.
Correct.
If we make sure we don't repeat what has happened, there needs to be enough liquidity accessible
to obviously use the Orca liquidation mechanism
and buy up the
collateral that needs to be liquidated but on orca is very easy and you can get it for 30 40 30
percent uh as a discount so it's very attractive also for arbitrageurs and so on so i guess so yeah
on on that like it's a different concept it's a concept of solvability of the landing protocol and yeah what we will do going forward like uh first so your risk on this if you land like very
high liquidity high quality asset like bitcoin is all that realistically you will always have
enough liquidity to liquidate your collateral we should still have some caps and measure. And in case like Rougira becomes the biggest lander,
bigger than Aave and all that, this will become more concerned.
But we have like plenty of margin.
Where you have to be very careful is on smaller liquidity tokens.
And what matters at the end is to always make sure that you have enough liquidity
on chain to guarantee orderly liquidation.
Meaning if somebody buy your collateral at a discount and sell it, the price impact of selling with a market order should never exceed the max discount you can
bought for.
And that's something we know and are very well aware because this absence of taking that
into account back in the day on Kujira is what created the liquidation
cascades on KUJI collateral that actually lead us today so it was not all bad but this is a
risk relief for lower liquidity token and we will be mindful to have the proper gap rate in place
but for NAMI like this is not a concern and for large cap for stable coins shouldn't be a
concern as well so if i'm let's go back to the like wrapped pick on on base wrapped bitcoin on
ethereum you know if you're if i put in my one bitcoin and you're now splitting it up
uh amongst all these different wrapped bitcoins and different blockchains that that is a
uh risk factor, right?
Like what if Coinbase's wrapped Bitcoin blows up?
What if, you know, Justin Sun running WBTC, right?
People are skeptical of it now, right?
You know, if one of these wrapped Bitcoins blow up for whatever reason,
then that does have a, risk effect to this earn program.
Absolutely.
Well, I guess first off, hopefully this will be very clear to people entering.
And second, is there a way to opt out of that?
I don't want to have my Bitcoin commingled with these wrapped tokens.
I only want my Bitcoin being exposed to Bitcoin.
And maybe you can have different tiers of interest,
depending on the level of risk you're willing to accept.
I mean, actually, that's quite a nice idea.
I haven't thought about that yet.
Depends a bit on how many different yield sources we have.
Just for Bitcoin, I need to monitor a bit.
In the beginning, it wouldn't make sense for us to implement it
because you could just lend out your Bitcoin yourself
in this one native Bitcoin lending pool.
You will find it under strategies.
But if we have more like the Orbital one and so on,
and they are not connected,
okay, the Orbital one is a bad example of this,
then it doesn't make sense.
But yeah, nice intro.
Look, I'm a free market guy.
If people want to pay for it, give it to them.
But at the same time, I think one of the biggest problems with ThorChain savers and lending is people just had no frigging clue.
And I'm like, I mean, there's only so much you can do to protect people from themselves.
But we're all, i think everyone in this ecosystem
you know we've all seen bad things happen in crypto and we you know none of us want that
right all trying to build the better future the better world the better versions and i think a
simple part of that is just just being clear of what people are getting into like when they go
click buy or click send or click whatever,
that it's pretty darn clear in their face what they're doing.
And then that'll lead that,
then this buyer beware, right?
We did our best to try and make you guys understand
what's going on.
And after that, it's your own responsibility.
But like on savers within lending,
it didn't really exist. You know,
there was no, I think a lot of too many people just had no idea what they're doing. So just
kind of hopefully you guys take that to heart that you can display this info, like what's
really happening behind the scenes when people do this.
Fully agree. I think we all came a came a long journey i mean i wasn't directly affected by
the savers debacle but i was affected by anchor and our old home chain so yeah definitely one
thing that we want to make clear is you understand what you're getting into uh that's the main goal
here and then to keep going with this,
another part of the yield you said would be Bitcoin pools
on Regera.
Who were OK, so where does the impermanent loss go?
If it doesn't go to me, the person saving Bitcoin,
who's who's stomaching that impermanent loss?
So I get this example.
So I'll take this one.
I mentioned the orbital pool for concentrated strategy.
So there would be, this is a specific strategy,
originally designed for stable coins.
So it's meant for correlated assets.
So you would have in your strategy Bitcoin,
the native Bitcoin, the secure asset,
wrapped Bitcoin and CB Bitcoin wrapped by Coinbase. And those
are three variations of Bitcoin and it will allow you to make
market anybody that is deposited in there to make market
between those variations. So anyone who want to swap one
version for another because I don't know, they add a wrapped
version on Ethereum and now they want the native stuff on TorChain.
Well, they will be able to tap not just in the base layer pool liquidity,
but also in the app layer pool liquidity.
And with this strategy that is much more efficient,
we should be able to facilitate more size with a lower price impact
versus the XYK pools on the base layer.
And so when you provide liquidity in this correlated strategy you don't have impermanent loss because impermanent loss
is something you incur only when you have two assets that are not correlated and when you have
price divergence from the moment you enter versus the moment you exit so not applicable here unless
one of the variants uh collapse and go to zero or they pay significantly.
Got it. Okay. Got it. Cool. Thank you guys.
Well, about the ThorChain side here.
So, you know, if we're going to have like lending and things like that, I know, you know, we've talked about the security posture of 14 quite a lot and i think you know me and kenton specifically we're you know we're comfortable with you know the the
um opening up the security budget but is there something node operators should know in the
terms like you know rugira is just getting started like um and you know rugira obviously what it
moved 50 percent um things are people a lot of people are going to be learning about Ruggiero, it's going to be a lot of hype.
Do you foresee node operators having to, it's hard to predict, but like, if node operators are listening to this, would you like to convey something to them relative to Ruggiero's design and scale?
Like, could you talk about that, maybe pragmatic?
Could you talk about that, maybe pragmatic?
Well, I think we have covered this topic in the past, but not operator.
So first on the security budget for now, we have plenty of room.
So there is no issues there.
And now we have also this MIMI parameter that allows to give a bit more flexibility.
So the TVL cap, you can multiply it by a certain multiplier and get
by a certain multiplier and get,
instead of having to have a one-to-one backing,
you can get to 1.5 to whatever you want.
So it gives us flexibility.
So we can use this lever going forward if need be.
And that's great.
You also, of course, like the Razerbound campaign
and all that has provided a ton of security.
So for now, there is no issue on this side.
And then you were asking about the specific design of the app layer.
So remember, we have this separation of concern principle, which means that a smart contract on the app layer can only do things that a regular user could do on Torchain.
Nothing more, nothing less, no special permission. So it means
that anything you will do with smart contracts is something you could replicate being a human,
except that you will not automatize it and so you will be very slow or there will be certain things
that you can't do just because of speed constraint or number of transactions you have to do at the
same time constraint. But it's the exact same thing. So there is no additional risk introduced directly by having the app
layer. But then, of course, what could happen is all the smart contracts, sure, they are
audited and we review them and all this, but reality shows that there's always issues that
are missed. And at some point some point for sure there will be some
bug and they can't be even exploit or who knows it's we have the chain that we are built with
Cosmoism Tech which smart contract written in Rust which is a formal language which is much more
resilient than what you would find on EVM chain you You can have, for example, re-entrancy attacks, which are the most common way of exploiting smart contracts.
So it gives a certain level of comfort, but there is still like a ton of risk and an exploit could happen.
And if or when this happens, Torchchain node operator has the option via a meme here to pause
either a specific smart contract or the
entire app layer. And so that's just something to keep in mind and hoping that some node operator
will have monitoring in place. And if something suspect is detected, they can pause the contract.
Of course, the team with admin rights, the team with deployed the contract,
should also be able to do that.
But it gives an extra area of security,
allowing to prevent potentially lose-out funds
in case of such events.
MARK MIRCHANDANI- Right.
And I don't want to beat that horse.
I know we've gone on Spaces and talked about it for four hours.
But I just wanted you to cover that again,
because I'm surprised often how many people ask me these questions. and i know not every person listening spaces i wish they did but
i appreciate you breaking that down um kenson i think you're going to jump in there i want to
kick it to you um yeah maybe should we bring up the up on delay no good time to chat about you guys
uh sure um that's what maybe before we change the conversation just see if anybody want to keep going what we're
talking about um so i've been i was in discord saying that the the third chain discord saying
we got to get rid of the outbound delay on thor chain uh just to remind people what that is is
like trades used to settle on thor chain very quickly like basically um the the time it would
take would just be
whatever the block times on the two different blockchains
that you're trading between.
And then in June 21, when we had like three hacks
within a week, that's what, you know,
Thor chain shut down for like two months while the devs
went back to the giant board to fix things, you know, what happened, blah, blah, blah.
And from that came out a whole change in security posture.
And just remind people, it really bugs me people criticize ThorChain for those hacks.
Like those hacks were, ThorChain was on a phased rollout.
It was a controlled release, slowly increasing the room and the liquidity pools to see just how is this working in the wild?
And if there is any exploits that they could be contained and the treasury would pay people back.
So it was like a soft opening at a restaurant where you have your family
and friends come and you just iron out your processes.
So like in a runaway, those hacks were a good thing because you can't,
you can hire all the people in the world to audit code.
They're not going to find stuff.
It's when thieves, somebody trying to steal something,
they're the one, they're not going to find stuff. It's, it's when thieves, somebody trying to steal something, they're the one,
they're the real auditors. And so if you can think about it,
like if you're going to,
if you're a billionaire and you want to build a safe for your house,
put your billion dollars in as soon as it's done, you know, the people building the safe, of course, they're going to tell you it's,
it's secure. It can't be stolen.
Before you put your billion dollars in it,
you maybe you put in 5 million and you go to all the thieves in the world. And Hey, if you can steal this, you can's it's secure it can't be stolen before you put your billion dollars in it you maybe you put in five million and you go to all the thieves in the world and hey if you can steal this you can
keep it and and what they do is they audit the safe for you and so if they actually are able to
steal it you can go back to the person building the safe like hey this is the weak weak part you
need to fix it okay shoot okay we will that's basically what happened with door chain is that you know we had thieves point out the weak points in door chains that we could fix
them and um so one of those fixes were was an outbound delay in that instead of having the
trade settle very quickly um now it takes up to an hour. And that gives the nodes and the community time to see if these transactions are legitimate, if they're a hacker or whatever.
So that's been in place now for four years.
And I'm of the opinion that it actually is hurting Thorchain more than helping because, yeah, it makes it harder for bad guys to use Thorchain.
It also makes it harder for good guys to use it, too.
And I think it's the equivalent of, you know, you leave your house and you get, you know, you stub your toe.
Like, OK, well, I'm never going to leave the house again.
And it's like, well, it's life. You you know you have to expose yourself to risk if you want to
live and thort chain needs to expose itself to risk if it wants to grow it's just that simple
you know the harder we make it for uh hackers to take from us the harder we make it for honest people to use it. And those hacks in June were just on the Ethereum
router. And in the code, it was like, hey, this hasn't been reviewed yet. This needs some more
work. It's something to that extent. It was basically a giant flag to hackers. Hey, hey,
come take a look at this and exploit it. And I think the real problem was just code was rushed.
It just went live too soon.
Whereas the code and all the other pools, everything else was fine.
There was no issues on any other pools.
It was just the Ethereum router.
And so all that was fixed.
All that had went over with a fine-tooth comb, you know, tested.
We've been testing stuff for years.
Everything gets tested on stage
net before it goes out um you know i think we've i think thor chain has these training wheels and
elbow pads and knee pads and helmets on and foam padding and like all this stuff and it's like
really slowing us down so um i'm of the i think the outbound delay has to go. And somebody did have, bring up a good
criticism or comment is like, well, what about with app layer coming out? And you just said it
pragmatic, there could be some vulnerabilities there. So I'm curious what you think about
removing the outbound delay with appLayer coming up and rolling out.
Do we still need to keep it? Should we reduce it? We want to make the user experience better.
What do you guys think?
Yeah, so I'll give you my personal opinion.
It's exactly the counterpoint you were saying.
So I think if you were uh if
torching graph continue exactly with the status quo after uh four years of having those training
wheels it would make total sense to uh to remove them uh in the effect you have been surviving for
four years so likelihood of you surviving another day is increasing exponentially
likelihood of you surviving another day is increasing exponentially. With the app
layer, it changed the game a lot. Smart contracts are complex. We are building very
complex systems that all work together. Sure, it's rust and it's great and it's
more secure, but there are still a ton of risks. And for me, having this outbound delay
for the first few years,
at least like another year or two,
maybe three, I don't know,
but just the time that we put
really all the pieces together
and grow the TVL
and the economic activity.
And we can start to become
these big honeypots
that really attract hackers
and they try to steal some funds and maybe they break their team, maybe they break ours,
I don't know, but at least we see the cracks, we fix them and once we have a long enough period
without any incident, we can and things are not moving as fast as they were initially,
then I think we can have
again this conversation but right now my personal preference would be in keeping this outbound delay
because it's kind of a super power if you think about it it means that even if there is an exploit
on the app layer as long as somebody some node operator reacts fast enough, and so you are saying it's one hour delay fixed.
So we could just say, okay, actually give me an idea of how we could kind of find a middle ground here.
But you could say, okay, as long as there is another operator that detects the issue and makes this pause within one hour
after the exploit, which normally it takes way less than that
to realize something went wrong and ring the bell.
Then we have the superpowers that we can block the phones
and we can see what we do.
We can prevent them from leaving the network.
Of course, if you are a decentralization purist,
you should say, no, fuck that.
We are not gonna like do anything
to recover, not migrate smart contract, not do the code is low and the hacker did not think wrong
by exploiting poorly written codes. You can take this stance. In that case, yeah, you can remove
the outbound delay anyway. But otherwise, if we are willing to act and try to make good for our users to patch something that was not supposed to be an intended consequence.
And I think that's the way to go.
And by the way, that's the road that Torchain has taken in the past already.
If you look at TCY, for example, which was a way to patch a flooded design
that's resulted in bad debt.
So there is a precedent for that.
I think we could have the same approach for the app layer
and that gives a very nice level of comfort for everyone,
but for the user mostly, like for the teams as well.
Like if you know that, yeah,
fonts can be blocked if they are misappropriated
and redistributed, it's not the same as one mistake
and it's all gone.
So yeah, I would very much favor keeping it for a while.
I think there's a middle ground here.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, sorry. Thanks for that. So it could's a middle ground here. Yeah, so exactly. Oh, sorry. Thanks for that.
So it could be a middle ground where you actually, so having a fixed outbound delay,
you scale the outbound delay with the size of the transaction. And so below a certain threshold,
maybe you have no outbound delay at all, but above, and maybe you have no outbound delay at all, but ideally you will have still like a one hour time weighted average
of how much you have an address as outbound.
And maybe that's what is used to decide of the outbound delay,
because if you just do a no outbound for looking just at one transaction,
then the easy way around is to just do a no outbound for looking just at one transaction then the easy way around is to just
do a ton of very small transaction and you can overcome it but if you have like a yeah you well
you could actually still do split your uh your fonts into a ton of different addresses and do a
ton of uh short small withdrawals so it still has some risk, actually, and you can go around.
So maybe it's not as good as .
JOHN MUELLER- Yeah, that was originally
the thought of with the current design,
and being able to break up in smaller trades
is a way to get around it.
So that's why I think it's actually outbound Q,
because regardless of your trade size, it all gets backed up.
What about having an outbound delay just on secured assets?
Wouldn't that, you know, we can have the L1 pool start being more relaxed, but getting out of the secured assets, there's a delay there.
there's a delay there.
And in theory, that'd be like no different than withdrawing off Coinbase or Binance,
or even adding two.
You know, there's that time delay.
What about that?
I think that could work.
We need a bit more thinking in terms of could that affect arbitrage behavior.
But anyway, there is already an outbound delay
for everything at the moment.
So the issue is then if you have a delay,
because right now you can instantly swap native assets
for secure assets.
That's a key part of having this composability.
If you put an outbound delay on secure assets,
actually what you are doing is putting an outbound delay
on turning secure assets back to native assets.
So effectively, you would be killing the atomicity.
So actually, no, I don't think that can work.
No, Christine. Well, OK. So I what the thing kenton's really getting at
and i i kind of agree with him it's like if you have institutions that are looking at
the outbound delay looks like a massive insecurity that we're not comfortable with our code
um and because i think that's a perfect example kenton i think you nailed it with like the bicycle
helmet and it's like if you had a girl looking at a guy, and he's, like, super, you know, buff and in shape and looks good.
And he's riding his bike.
But then he's got, like, a helmet and, like, knee pads and elbow pads.
He's got a fucking blinker on his ass and, like, a little side mount, you know, like, mirror and maybe, like, a rape whistle.
Like, he looks pathetic.
He looks like a pussy.
You know what I mean?
So I totally love whatenton said right there i'm thinking because it
could for me but i'm also like totally on your side pragmatic because it's almost like with the
app layer um this is crude way to play but it's almost like going back to chaos net in some ways
right you're gonna have all these teams adding all kinds of smart contract code and it's very
very hard to catch everything audited but i
think kenton what my instinct tells me is that okay maybe we can't remove it but i think we need
to really reduce it like go down like maybe 10 or 15 minutes because one thing i also fear
is that the outbound delay is so long that it's actually built a little complacency
in node operators because the the thought creeps in your mind like you know someone's definitely
going to catch this thing like i don't you know i don't have to pay attention every
second but if we reduce it i think it'll make the community more vigilant and more aware and i think
sometimes the the longer the outbound queue the delay the more complacent we become um so that's
what my thoughts are that is it is true and we literally have evidence for that for
the wbtc trade uh i think it was last year or kim yeah was it last year last february i think
forgive me i forget you guys but um um it was like five million dollars and it sat there for an hour
and no one did anything and it was it wasn't a hack it was just like a just a real real edge case
And it wasn't a hack.
It was just a real edge case in the way the trade was going through the pool.
And it resulted in, I don't know, like 5 million WBTC came in and like 1 million went out or something.
Like the slippage was like ginormous.
And had somebody actually reviewed it, they actually looked at it and
thought about it, it would have been caught, but nobody did. And this isn't like a, this is a known
psychological phenomenon. It's called the bystander effect. And this has been documented. This exists
in humans for a long time now. And there's studies been done on it. We're like, there'll be say a woman getting raped
in broad daylight in the middle of the day
in a street where there's hundreds of people
and no one does anything
because everybody thinks,
oh, well, somebody else will do something.
Or somebody else will call the police.
Somebody else will step in.
And meanwhile, this person gets totally victimized.
And then, you know then after the fact,
I was like, why did you scream for help? I was, I did. And no one came, no one helped me.
And meanwhile, there's just dozens of people all over doing nothing. And that's exactly what's
happening. That's what this outbound delay creates with nodes on ThorChain is everyone
thinks somebody else is doing it. Meanwhile, no one's doing anything.
So we're deluding ourselves that this delay is actually helping us.
It's actually making us all do nothing.
So the real solution here is better alerts.
And I know everyone's trying.
We have these hyper-native alerts and we like i know where everyone's trying we have these hyper native alerts and stuff
uh did kenton drop for you guys i can hear him yeah dropped um okay i'll keep going hopefully he comes back on um i think i know where he was going with that conversation i think we just need
more tooling um that allows for better alerts because I think a lot of time people get drowned out on
the alerts, you know, they just, they're just so ubiquitous and trigger all the
time that it breeds complacency. So pragmatic, I'll kick it to you. Cause I
think you knew where Kenton was going with his words. Um, what do you think
are some things we can do, um, just to give nodes, you know, more accurate and
concise data instead of like a bunch of like
static from like a TV, you know what I mean?
No, I'm not sure. Like I thought where I was going was to
shorten the duration of it. Right. I think that that's
fair, right? Maybe too much. And maybe
Can I jump in?
yeah, go ahead
I think I also
saw JP tweeting the other one
at some point
about this, but this is kind of
for me from a dev perspective, the perfect
application of a
trained AI in some
way or form, that every node has the
run, that processes the data
that's coming through, which means perhaps,
like you guys say, you need an outbound delay of two minutes
or one minute or 30 seconds or whatever
if you are able to get up to 99.5, 99.6% success rate
on the analysis, in my opinion.
on the analysis, in my opinion.
I'm really sorry.
I kind of missed out.
I was trying to communicate with Kenton,
but I think you were just talking about
making the notifications better.
Yeah, just talking about that,
the notification in itself,
yeah, it should be based on a powerful system
like a trained AI,
like cannot be like just an open source model,
but it needs to be an adjusted one
that understands what it does.
And I think JP was tweeting about it at some point
or even is working on it.
I don't know.
But yeah, definitely use AI for this kind of stuff.
We need somebody that is like looking into it
and building a model for thought chain.
Right, right.
That would make a ton of sense here.
Because at the end,
those are probably fairly easy things to detect
based on large data training.
And I mean, easy to detect abnormal behavior.
And so, yeah, having an automated way,
intelligent, automatic way to trigger Mimeos effectively,
or maybe you still need the Mimeos trigger,
but you still need a human and not operator human
to sign this transaction to confirm it.
I don't know exactly what the best design is,
but that could be a great way to reduce, yeah, to two it. I don't know exactly what the best design is, but that could be a great way to reduce, yeah,
to two minutes or whatever.
I mean, theoretically, I guess you could use
Vultisig tech to have the AI in some way or form
trigger a halt or whatever,
and like without doing anything else,
without sharing, but I don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, you know, and that's kind of like why we're having these spaces you guys um people who are listening is that you know we have rogera they're
obviously building stuff but you know we're obviously very deeply intertwined now and that's
only going to increase as time goes on so we need to think about these things ahead of time um and i
encourage if there's any you know devs out there listening to this live or the recording, this is something I think that we need to think deeply about. But just to move what
Kenton was saying forward, I am personally in favor of at least reducing the outbound delay.
I think that's okay. And I agree with his assessment that when it is longer, it just
breeds too much complacency. You know, I'm opening to maybe waiting
until we have some AI tooling in effect.
I'm really not sure.
So I lean on the wisdom of others to offer suggestions.
I think what JP just said and Pragmatic Monkey just said,
I think that's reasonable.
Okay.
Do you guys have anything else you want to add about that?
I just want to make
sure that, you know, we, you know, this is a Ruggiero space, but obviously we want to make
sure that we're being all encompassing here and trying to come from all the angles to make sure
that we give everything we need for Ruggiero to scale, but we do it together in a way that's
safely. And that, and that signals confidence to the wider ecosystem, wider blockchain ecosystem.
No, nothing specific to add to the outbound delay, I guess.
It's kind of a preference question and the risk tolerance question,
what you're going to do immediately.
But I mean, we should incentivize people looking into improving the reporting system if it's not already done.
Yeah, I just saw some integrators from different front ends and integrators like DKID in the audience.
And I just wanted to say again, guys, I think we don't say it enough.
If you want to get your feet wet with Ruggiero, like approach us. For example, all the indices that we just launched,
you can integrate them, you can put your own affiliate fee on top of them, you can monetize
them, all the known system. It's just a little bit of a lift to get this first
change in behavior because it's not a message swap that is done anymore, but the message is execute. But yeah, shout out to Vultisic. I think they're the first ones ever integrating quite a lot of Ruggiero stuff. And so yeah, just saying again, if you want help, obviously for free, just come to us and ask us and we point you and we can look at your code and whatever.
come to us and ask us and we point you and we can look at your code and whatever jp i'm so glad you
brought that up that makes me want to pivot to another topic here and i think i'll go to pragmatic
monkey let's do a general like rugira update or you know pragmatic um you know i saw four wallets
for those who don't know thor wallet is a specific interface separate from thor chain um it's like a
hot wallet and they also have a web interface that stores various assets. I know I saw Thorwall added Ruggiero perps.
I'm assuming it's on iOS because I don't see it on Android.
What are the teams looking like?
Are you getting more and more people?
I've been trying to kick people from the XRP community, particularly to Ruggiero.
What's that looking like?
Is it getting pretty exciting over there?
over there? So yeah, we are speaking with quite a few teams, but so the Perps was, Perps is really
So, yeah, we are speaking with quite a few teams.
like for now an isolated product built by the Levana team, and this integration was made by,
was it, I think it was TorSwap, I wasn't involved into that, they just did it to add functionality,
which is great, and we want to see that, But we are not proactively pushing for third-party integrator yet on the base stack, because
right now we are not ready from prime time yet, and in terms of liquidity mostly.
But also we want to have the framework in place with affiliate and referral.
And then that would be the moment we start to do a big push.
But we are talking with quite a few teams uh however i think there's always a disconnect
between uh what you people focus on on the outside and all those integration and stuff which is great
like we need that but but and the timing of where we are in the development cycle which is still
uh a few like focusing on getting a few big pieces in place.
And if you want, I can...
Get your feet wet with the RUJI index.
That's done.
Exactly.
Actually, NAMI has been doing great.
They have already product life.
They are also blocked in a way by the bigger pieces
because of course, NAMI will need proper liquidity
on the order book to
be able to do much more indexes and we'll need landing vault and other market making
strategy to be able to do the earned products.
But eventually that's also the, that would probably be the best way to integrate with
more sophisticated solution because source interfaces are not going to want to integrate
I want to integrate with a thousand different strategies.
with a thousand different strategies.
So in any case, I think working either with NAMI or Kark
or Otto Rogero would be the, for most use case,
the best place.
And then of course, if you want to integrate
with the other book, that would be via us.
But yes, this is all coming, but for now,
focus on NAMI and that would be a great use case for first integration.
And you are with a good one.
And then more will come.
I love it.
Awesome.
I'm really getting excited.
And I know you guys are really baking down there and you're
trying to do it quickly yet responsibly as well, being very safe and you know how fragile a
reputation can be. So I commend you guys. I'm really excited. If there's anything I can do
or anyone else in the audience, any builders can help you. I'm definitely interested in doing that.
I'm just going to keep spreading the word about Rujira and all the things you're doing.
And again, I think what JP said, that's very important.
Guys, if you are a builder, just make the first attempt and just open DMs and get in
contact with either Pragmatic Monkey, you know, NAMI Protocol, Rujira, you know, Uradite.
There's a lot of people there.
And let's just get the get the conversation
started because there are so many things that we need to build and it's going to get really exciting
um i don't know if anyone else anything they want to mention you know i see only hans is on stage
if anyone has any questions or comments or anything we felt like been moved out but i think we're
pretty comprehensive today um i'll's open. Go ahead.
I just thought if you were wanting to have an overview about the Rujira updates in itself,
I think something that is very interesting is to say that
from 3.10, you will be able to use Rujira and ThoughtChain
from any EVM wallet.
The EVM pubkey support will work fully as it is.
That's like a huge unlock also for ThoughtChain in itself.
And also the credit accounts that Hans is coding,
he was teasing here and there,
is a lot of DeFi strategies around lending,
borrowing, margin, perhaps ultimately,
whatever coming up.
So obviously it's a tease, but follow the GitLab if you can read code
or ask ChatGPT to tell you what the code does.
And yeah, you'll literally be blown away,
especially because I think that's something nice to mention here.
Usually if you use lending and borrowing,
yeah, you are restricted in many ways.
Who's the borrower?
How does it work?
Like from a building perspective,
you're a bit restricted.
But now what Ansys created
is basically a system
that you can do whatever,
whatever is a big word, like don't get me wrong,
in a transaction if at the end of the transaction you are solvent.
So if you don't fuck up the system,
and this will be very interesting.
I think he hasn't completely implemented that yet,
so too early to talk about perhaps PMS and more infos for that,
but it's really exciting from a building perspective,
unlocks a huge amount of composability.
This is going to be a game changer, definitely,
in terms of, well, all the apps that say,
it will unlock spot margin trading.
It will unlock, eventually,
so spot margin trading, CDP loans,
stable coins, the native
Bitcoin-backed stablecoins, we will also be using
the same system. This will allow us to do
two types, a mixed
version of stablecoins. We could do either
the classic
CDP loan, or we can
do an Ithna-style
version of it. And ultimately, this will
unlock
RUG futures, which we can also call
PERP V2, which will be a new version
of the PERP that exists, but built a bit differently with a
peer-to-peer order book model similar to Hyperliquid
instead of peer-to-peer like the version we have with
the Levana product currently.
So that will come later, but all of that will be enabled via this credit account structure.
So very cool.
And for builder, so as Nami GP was saying, it's a big unlock because then you can do pretty much anything.
And as long as you are solvent at the end of the transaction just like a flash loan
effectively but inside the container you you can do all sort of very imaginative stuff swapping
your collateral for another collateral without having to repay your loan in the middle or that's
a simple one but i'm sure people can come up crazy leverage loop as well. Like if you want to go, that's how effectively spot margin will work.
If you want to go to the next long Bitcoin, you just buy and borrow, buy and
borrow, but all of that in the same block and open your long margin position with
that, but I'm sure people will find many other stuff.
Very cool.
Just a quick shout out.
Kenjin is still struggling to come on stage um tc uh intern if
steve maybe you can try and kick him from co-host see if we can get him back up that'd be awesome
but uh you know glitches are glitches sometimes it doesn't work um we have a new speaker d kit
came up hey d kit what's going on yo what's going on guys this is dad um yeah i just wanted to chime
in on the outbound delay um topic and just the general like speaking from the router space, right?
From like the competitive landscape of these various backends and how they compete against one another and how it fits into a stack like ours.
The direction something like DK gets going is one in which we have all different kinds of clients, not just simple front ends or like front end DEXs or wallets.
front ends or, uh, like front end DEXs or wallets. Uh, and we end up offering them like a composable
stack where they can essentially sort where they're serving their roots from based on what kind of
company they are and what they want. Right. So like certain companies aren't going to want my
protocol because they don't want to touch Z cash because they're a big institution or something.
Uh, it's, it's unfortunate. Other ones are wanting to want to have the switch that says like,
we only are using fully decentralized backends, nothing even close to a bridge or
a wrapper. Um, there's going to be more and more variety in competition, but just speaking to like
outbound delay and how Thor chain competes against, um, our main backends, which I would say are like,
uh, Thor chain chain flip, my protocol and, uh, garden finance. Those are like the top
competitors for the top route.
I always want to see ThorChain on top of that list.
And what's been really cool is watching, especially with things like rapid swaps coming,
ThorChain is in a position where it is going to top that list.
And that'll be whether or not we filter on speed or price.
So obviously, it will filter through high for like decentralization. But then
the other question is, do these front ends and do these companies and anyone plugging into these
cross chain stacks, do they want to filter by speed or price? And I don't know what your guys'
preferences are when you use things like one inch or some of these other things, but I do find a lot
of people, unless there's a big difference, do filter by speed. And so I just see things like rabbit swaps and also outbound delays being eliminated as like, these are the changes I personally really want to see to see Thorchain on top of the list.
Because it by far has like the best execution.
has like the best execution it's a matter of um just how the mechanics match up against these
other back ends and how they work and how deep their liquidity is and what both the uh kind of
slippage tolerance as well as the speed of execution is so anyways i see changes like this
as like super positive and just speaking from behind the dashboard of watching these various
back ends compete against one another like all of these changes are and will make ThorChain like the the best option um and that would be awesome to see so um it's super exciting
and I mean uh ThorChain is evolving and there's a reason that it's it's kind of leader of the pack
and so we're pretty stoked to be offering that and you know similar to the um the conversation
with like Leo Dex's ThorChain interface or like the Thor chain native one. There'll also be companies and like unstoppable waltz like,
like this right now, but there'll also be companies that are like, we just want Thor chain.
And the reality is if Thor chain is good enough, more and more companies are going to say,
just give us Thor chain. Cause it works and that's all we want. Um, so proud to be, uh,
serving that hot and fresh and, uh, yeah, hope everyone's having a great Saturday.
Yeah, I do. That was awesome. Thank you so so much that's a really cool perspective i'm coming from someone
like yourself and i do agree i think your logic is sound um and this is something i think that
we're just gonna have to collectively think about um on the regiran and thor chain side is how we
can mitigate this outbound thing and make thor chain as quick as possible and you guys know how
it is right i mean when you have a really good reputation, it's just a little, like you do 99% things right, like we've done in ThorChain and
on, you know, Kajira, Rujira, we've done 99.95% things right. And if you have one bug that
results in a little, it just blows up on social media. So it's like the stakes are real. It's hard.
But, you know, those who know ThorChain, I mean, obviously they're not too deterred by that kind
of thinking, but it's something that we just got to tread water and be really careful but um
I think it's clear that we need to at least consider reducing the outbound delay um making
just making Thorchain quick um because you guys just heard it from DKID people really preference
speed and um I can speak for Kenton because he can't speak for himself he's been talking to
various you know funds and people trying to get people to invest in ThorChain.
And that is a big hiccup for them is that speed, is that outbound delay.
It just hits them wrong. It just comes off wrong, right?
Sounds insecure.
Doesn't matter if we tell them the history of we want ThorChain to be as hardy and as safe as possible,
that we're very defensive, that we want this infrastructure to be safe.
It just doesn't sit right. So something that we're gonna have to navigate together um i
don't foresee it as being a big problem but um the sooner we start working on it i think especially
relative what dkit said it's something that's um that'll really help us um well this is great guys
awesome um i don't know if we're gonna get kenton back it really sucks i hate having my wingman
be missing because he's a legend when it comes to economic primitives. Definitely the one thing
that I'm not really a big DeFi user in the terms of primitive. So it's a little something I'm soft
on. I'm a dollar cost average buy and hold kind of guy. I'm real simple, that like that. But
if there's anything else, if anyone wants to come up and ask questions um some people request but if you have like 10 followers and you don't have the thing i just think you're a i'm kicking
you i'm sorry like you're not coming up on stage but i'm not not gatekeeping here but uh we've had
too many trolls come up and just do some random things with the mic so i'm not going to risk it
you gotta you gotta be known a little bit i mean come on put a little effort in there but if anyone
has any questions or has any concerns are are already on stage, please fire away.
But if there's nothing else, this might be a good time to wrap.
I know everyone wants us not to go four hours.
Oh, my God.
Kenton, your microphone.
Are you going to say something right now?
Am I back?
Oh, my God.
Welcome back, my friend.
I didn't know what happened there. Welcome back, my friend.
I did.
Yeah, what happened there?
I was able to listen to most of it.
I don't want to beat a dead horse.
I think you guys kind of covered it, but I appreciate DKIT's perspective. I think time is a way more important factor of UX than price.
Like, how about put it this way, guys?
How many times in life have you been willing to pay more to get something done quicker?
Right?
Like, I'll fly direct.
I'll pay an extra 100 bucks, 50 bucks, an extra 10 or 20% for my flight to fly direct
versus connecting.
You know what i mean so like um i think time is a huge thing and like he brought up rapid swaps what's the point of rapid
swaps if you got to wait an hour for your trade to settle like you know it doesn't make sense to me
so uh yeah those those are my finishing thoughts on it. Yeah, it sounds like a bit of a contradiction, right?
We do have a new speaker.
Rio, if you want to test your mic, go ahead.
Hey, y'all, can you hear me?
Yeah, go ahead.
What do you got for us?
Hey, thanks for putting this on.
As always, Patriot Sounds, Kenton.
Hey, a question for Ruggiero team, PM.
Maybe I haven't heard much about Wink or the NFT marketplace.
Can you talk about what's going on with that?
Are those guys still around and building?
OK, so I'm going to give you an update there,
which we haven't communicated officially yet.
But no, we have to pathway with them.
They were lacking their resources and were not able to deliver
to the timeline we have set to them.
So instead of that, it would be us also building it.
So in pretty much an afternoon, Hans came up with something very interesting, very new.
He had a vision for a different type of NFT standard
called Verifiable NFT.
And that will effectively be NFT,
but that also allow you to prove that whatever you are tokenizing
is indeed what it's supposed to be and is indeed unique.
So if you think about the JPEG,
you could actually, when you min the JPEG,
you will be able to attach the bytecode of this JPEG.
And then if somebody tried to min the same JPEG
with the same image, it would not be possible
because it would be a check against the hash
of this encrypted JPEG.
And that can be used not just for JPEG,
but the idea is very much to be able to use the standard
to also tokenize real world assets
and expand by just art NFTs.
So that's something that will be coming, of course.
So it's got delayed a bit because we are changing the team,
but it's not a big lift, really.
It's just a matter of prioritization. We have
like still like a lot of different things on the roadmap and this doesn't look like the
most urgent matter, but it will be coming and you will be eventually able to launch
connections as expected and actually do much more stuff than just image collection.
Sounds good.
So that's RWA's are coming to ThorChain slash Ruggiero.
Hopefully, yes.
That would allow protocol to build on top of the standard to, for example, do tokenize a barrel of a rare whiskey
or something along those lines.
That would be cool.
Hey, good news. That's good to to hear i'm looking forward to that yeah we will share more info we have an article uh most ready but need to check a
few uh still technical things before before we release so that's very much a pure alpha i just
gave away uh but but it's a there are some good plans coming.
PM, can I add to that?
Oh, sorry, Rio, did you have more to say?
I just wanna say, hey brother, keep dropping alpha, man.
We're all here for it.
Oh, thanks, man. Thanks for your support.
Thanks for tuning in.
To kind of extend our WA's NF nfts what about a a meme coin platform when we pump you know pump
dot regira pump dot door chain you know we have the launchpad coming which is currently under uh
uh under audit so the launchpad will allow you to launch any token you want so you can
someone's trying amazing sound please thank you
go ahead pragman monkey yeah i would think so so we have uh the launch pads uh ruggie launch pads
which is currently going undergoing audits uh and that will uh allow you to uh to launch a meme
coin if you want you can launch any type of tokens and so uh that can be your pump.fun uh
ruggie version of it and somebody could even like a spin out
an alternative front end for it with a more uh mem focus uh thing and make it a different product
and with those fees trickle to store chain participating in the fee sharing on that
fees trickle to store chain participating in the fee sharing on that?
Yeah, the launchpad is whenever you do a raise, there will be a fee taken.
So you have two fees.
You have a fee that is taken on the amount raised and you have a fee that is taken on
the withdrawal.
And those fees are not generating
any direct economic activity for Torchain.
So it's a normal 50-50 split.
And then what would be the pool?
How would they pool the asset?
What would they pair it with?
Could they decide what they want to?
They want to pool it with ETH or pool it with
any gas asset basically, right?
So initially, I think we want to focus on the USDC pairs,
but you could technically raise with any token you want.
I personally am not super keen to see a raise in RUJI
because it means that it's a back end and the project has to sell this RUJI
to fund this operation.
So I'd rather have them raising directly in USDC
or Bitcoin or whatever they want to raise,
rather than RUJI.
But if you wanted to do a launch in RUN, for example,
you could totally do that.
And yeah, so it's, and the way it works then is,
there's a fully automated process
and you define as a token creator.
When you build your launch, you design your tokenomics
and you design which parts of the token supply will be allocated for liquidity
and how much from the raise will be used to be paired with the liquidity.
And it's a step-by-step process.
And by the end of the process, if your sales complete to target
and so it's valid and you close the sales, it will automatically create LP on the RUGITrade with the XYK market maker and your tokens start trading immediately.
And I see Nami as the end raise and they know the process really well because they use this platform or the predecessor of it, Pilots raise uh on rogera back in the day so maybe
gp you want to to say something about it go ahead nami yeah uh i'll have another topic later but
this one there's a really a very smooth process the i have to admit and i think the guys are
working on it the first time you use it as a user, as an investor. It is quite complex to understand the mechanics.
So usually the first time you fuck it up,
the second time you are in it
and you start to laugh about the guys
that come the first time.
But yeah, it was a really nice process.
And actually for us,
it resulted in a three X higher raise
than we have targeted.
So whoever wants to build, listen to this.
If you, I guess, convince the people correctly,
have the right value proposition.
Yeah.
Well, and so you could start a token and raise Bitcoin.
Yes, yes, yeah.
So man, the maxis's heads are gonna melt we could have a meme coin platform
paired all the pools paired with bitcoin all these meme coins paired with bitcoin their heads
would absolutely implode i want to see it i'd love it oh my god that would be great and by the way
you also have we we got earlier this month, DowDow that went live.
And it's an amazing tool, guys.
Actually, I could totally see you, Canton and Patriot.
How do you plan to manage the budgets of the marketing,
the 5% you would get for marketing?
Is that going to be some EOA wallet somewhere,
or some multisig, or is is it gonna be transparent on chain?
It's gonna go to Coke and hookers.
No, yes.
Yeah, that's what the critics are gonna tell me.
Yeah, so the idea is that it would be like the dev fund.
So there's on the constants, there's a rune address, we can see where the rune goes to.
So we'd have the same address, same thing, address, rune address, where the rune goes to
for the marketing fund. And then that would be that address be held on BaltiSig. We would do
two of three, me scorch someone from Nine Realms. And I imagine we'd have an ETH address too,
so we can convert it to a stable coin, right?
So we can actually go pay for stuff.
I'm happy for that address to be public.
And then like any receipts and stuff like that,
we'll put in a Google Drive, you know,
so people want to look at.
That's it, yeah.
So the reason I was asking is because of course
you have and that's really a business choice like but given torchain is a community uh
centric project if you want to do things very uh transparently what you could do is set this
address to a dao uh so you can you have two type of dao you can have token types of DAO. You can have token DAOs, actually three types.
You can have DAOs that are just controlled by tokens.
So you stack a given token and it gives you a prorota share of voting rights.
You can have membership DAO, which are normal multi-seek.
So you could have the same three people, but everything's happening on-chain.
And every time you want, all the fee will be sent to the DAO address.
And every time you want to spend some money, you will have to do a mini proposal and this can be just a line but then you have to say oh we are using this phone to do that and so if you want to do like
a very transparent management of the treasury it can be it can be quite good and then you can have
also NFTs now like if some NFT collection want to also major
treasuries they can do that so it's just it's a great tool that is there and the reason I was
telling telling speaking about that was uh not just for you but because we before that we are
talking about the launch pad so now we have the full life cycle like a project and come launch a
token raise at the end of the race there is um liquidity pool cd and the token starts trading immediately
and they can spin out a dow and the people who participate in the race can all stack their token
if they wish to and have a collective ownership of the remaining of the treasury and of the funds
that have been raised during the process and that's very powerful and you can start to do like
all sorts of community driven stuff and you could have like a canton dow that's very powerful. And you can start to do like all sorts of community driven stuff.
And you could have like a Canton DAO that's raised capital,
raised BTC, for example, in the sales like that,
and then manage a non-chain fund,
only percent on-chain funds via this DAO infrastructure.
And every capital allocation decision is proposed by you,
or a committee made of you and a few other community members with a Patriot, I don't know, a few other people.
And token holders have to approve every decision.
And that can be a very cool model as well.
And you could do that to start to provide liquidity in certain pools or basically a player or decide on spending some more on marketing
for special initiatives from the front end, anything really.
You can run a business, decentralized business
on the blockchain in a transparent fashion this way
and from raising capital to deploying it.
Yeah, I'm gonna be honest, I'm so, so on that.
I've had someone else propose it to me too, something similar. And it's tough because like just governance is just too hard. Like you're constantly having to herd cats.
And, you know, if every time you want to go do something, you have to get people to
blow it on, it's just like nothing gets done.
It's just death by committee.
So I agree with that having been like involved in DAOs for quite a few years.
And I think you have always like decentralization is a spectrum.
You have like a lot of different level of it.
I think the DAO, properly functioning DAO needs a clear leadership.
It doesn't matter if it's a DAO.
It needs a team that is given a mandate to take decisions
and drive the everyday operation and growth.
Otherwise, it's not going to happen by itself.
But then you can have...
So especially now, you have a vote delegation coming that is live, which is super cool.
So you can do two things.
You can do a bit more trust-based model where effectively you would allocate a budget on a quarterly basis, for example, to the core team member of the DAO,
and they have freedom to disperse those funds, and effectively those funds would go to two of three multi-seeks, for example,
and then it's just you, the core team, voting on each decision, but still it's transparent.
court team voting on each decision but still it's transparent or you could have an alternative model
where you delegate ownership that's very interesting because if you think about it if we
grow into a decentralized world where we decentralized more and more of everything
including like i don't know eventually some public services or whatever that that's how the political
system in most democracies is supposed
to work. You vote for local representatives and then they are supposed to represent your
opinions, your preferences. But the reality is this system tends to be very corrupted. People
will have a very strict agenda depending on which lobby funded them and all that. And usually the person you delegate your vote to
doesn't represent your interests to your best.
Well, now we could have this kind of direct democracy system on chain,
but still with delegation.
And what you can do is allow any stackers to delegate the decision-making power
to one of the core DRO members or anyone else who wants to step in as an
involved decision maker that gets things moving. And it's really like real-time democracy. Anytime
you can reallocate your votes to somebody else, if you don't agree, you can see all the list of
votes they made. And if you don't agree with the decision or the vision, you can just re-delegate. But what you can do as well is by default then don't vote.
And however, if there is something big and you are not in agreement with the vote
made by whoever you delegate it, you can overwrite the vote at any time.
I think that's quite powerful and we cannot expect in an ever, like hopefully ever,
decentralizing society that everybody will be expert on everything and will work on everything.
That's never gonna matter.
But we can kind of mimic the existing system of delegation
which works in politics but also in corporations to a certain extent.
But except that instead of having only a window of four years or five years,
whatever, to readjust your votes because you did not get to choose.
I mean, the people you voted for did not act as you were expecting in that fridge.
And this person, by the way, had a big incentive not to vote,
just vote for their best interest because they knew they were safe for four years.
Well, now they have the risk that at any time if they fucked up,
they'll get redelegated, so it becomes real time.
And anything you are in disagreement with, you can overwrite.
So it hopefully can foster a model where we still have all this delegation based on trust, but more transparent, more reactive,
and where you can overwrite.
So I think it can be a good model and also an alternative way to effectively
manage a company, which is for certain DAOs, that's what it is.
If you look at Liquidy, it's really looked to be a business making market
and doing some other things on the on the Ruggira.
It's aimed to be profitable for its token holders, but it's a DAO.
And the two are not incompatible.
Yeah, for unique business. Yeah, I get it. But like for the marketing fund in particular,
like we have a DAO, we have 115 nodes and if they want to turn it off, they can.
That's for the funding part, but that's not for the fund allocation, that's for the use of font part.
Yeah, then it's just, yeah.
I mean, it's really, I'm not saying that you should do that, by the way.
I was just illustrating the tool and how you could do it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How much, like, how much centralized versus right do you want your micro organization to be and how much transparent that's just efficient let's say you want it to be I
think I think we're gonna just see how you know how it goes cuz you know and
I've got some hands up so I want to make sure we get to their speakers I know
Nami raises hand I might go to Nami first but then I think it was with the
coke by Nader and then rio's hand popped up and
went down i don't know if that could be a bug but um you know i think one thing is from from
kind of point of view is like when we did the raise the bond campaign that was very spontaneous
and we just like let's go and let's do it and um i understand like you know the down governance
um we're still early you know i'm sure we'll figure out you know what works we go along but
um i know pragmatic monkey you kind of said like you know, I'm sure we'll figure out, you know, what works when we go along, but, um, I know pragmatic monkey, you kind of said like, you know, I'm like part of the marketing.
Um, I'm adjacent to Kenton. I talk with Kenton a lot, you know, but, um, when it comes to like
these kinds of things, um, you know, I was an affiliate marketer back in the day. I do have
certain instincts, but I kind of want it to be a little centralized in the beginning. I just kind
of want to let Kenton just go, you know, just figure it and and have kind of like a stroke because everything everyone's we've proven at this point that
Kenton is a competent marketer
And that he has great instincts
Um, and so in the early stages, you know when we're early, um, I kind of just want to see how it goes and just kind of give almost like
Unilateral control a little bit. Just not, you know, just let kenton go
That's like my instincts tell me and then we'll kind of refine so um i i i'm fully in agreement with you yeah i
think that's the way to do and you need to have ownership and you need that i was like especially
for something like marketing that needs a lot of action that's uh i wasn't suggesting um oh no no
i understand it's it's uh we are talking about two different things.
There is one thing that is who is in charge with leading that and with doing that as of what?
And then there is just how much oversight do you want for that?
Is it full blown with some font-to-an-r-s and they can do everything?
Or do you want a bit more transparency on the use of funds and you have different models to do that. But especially for the marketing, I was just trying to take
an example relevant because Canton usually likes to take metaphors or
like illustrations. But the original part of that was Canton saying people
can come and raise in Bitcoin with a launchpad. And I was just trying to add
to that. Not only they can raise Bitcoin with a launchpad and i was just wanting trying to add to that not only
they can raise bitcoin with the launchpad but they can also provide right after a mechanism to allow
people who participated in the rails to have a say on the use of the bitcoin they just contributed to
the treasury uh that was the point i got you okay that that makes that makes sense and uh sorry for
my confusion there um
i said thank you for bringing it back uh pm let's let's bring it back to regira let's not get go down the marketing topic let's leave that for another day let's keep it let's keep this focused
on regira um okay so let's uh let's move to some hands here um let's go to with the coke um go i
believe you were first and then we'll go to bionator bionator was actually before me but uh it's okay i can start i was just wondering oh by
the way a lot of good work seen doing by pm and the team uh how is the for example the
options going uh are they still in the like a waiting list because as you know i'm
really concerned with the perps and options because they're the degenerating stuff it has
it has always been a longer term thing like we didn't even have it live on on kujiro this is
like bottom of the list of priority uh we the guy was supposed to build that we never paid him
so he doesn't need any capital expenses on that
he was just a builder on Rougira
he has been kind of
very not responsive from the start
so we
are assuming he won't be the one building it
we'll probably end up doing it ourselves as well
but options
this is a cool tool to have but if you look at
on-chain use of options, you have some supposedly big protocols, the one that rebounds, rebranded to, I forgot the name, Premiere, and a few other, there is very, very little usage of it because it's hard to get the model right. It's hard to get the
pricing right or you need market makers, external market makers and the volumes to attract them.
It's complicated. So it's reality at this time. It's a very low opportunity thing. So it's really
bottom of the list, but it will come in due time. Just it's not going to make a dent.
Like for now, the goal is really also to try to focus on the things
that will bring up the most revenue.
And the most revenue will be first from the spot decks and also eventually
from perhaps with the right model.
So let's see if I think I'll put it up.
But otherwise, I know you are concerned.
We have, I said earlier,
thanks to Credical Account,
we have an alternative design
that we can put in place
and we will very likely do it.
And that should be a model
that allows for more volume
just by the difference of nature.
When you have a peer-to-peer model,
you really need
just like if you don't have organic users, if you can attract them, you don't have a base level of
economic activity. If you have a peer-to-peer model with an order book where you can provide
liquidity, anybody just the same way as with peer-to-pool, but when you provide liquidity,
actually your liquidity needs to be readjusted based on the order in the order book. That means that from the moment you
have volatility, it creates a base level of trading. And that's why we already have trading
a bit of volumes in the few pairs where we deploy the XYK pull on the app layer.
From the moment you spin one off arbitrage opportunity rise and and the
arbitrageor comes up and and build some volumes okay that's fair enough yeah i guess uh makes
sense to go and uh yeah i've actually seen on each couple of option protocols and they haven't
taken off as well so clear enough yeah there's also example i was mentioning where in the vm world i think
it was one or so a good one called a friction on uh solana back in the day uh you need so to make
it attractive you also need if you just provide option itself there is no demand for that currently
you need to give you utility to this option by building strategy on top of it. So you probably need also to have some people
ready to build strategies.
And this guy was the only one that I saw
kind of successful for a while.
But even there, depending on the type of strategy,
usually you have a lot of short,
like covered short strategy where effectively
you are short the asset you are selling puts and it goes well, goes well up and to the right.
Your collateral is stablecoin against that and you are selling short on the crypto. And suddenly there is a big move up and boom, you get liquidated.
boom you you get liquidated uh so so you you need some people who can build more sophisticated
strategies that are so protect your downside in the same of in terms of uh in case of extreme moves
so it's uh yeah it's it's not easy things to to um to put together and all the team uh i have seen
trying to do that uh on the dub shutting down and this one friction was the one i saw with most
success and they should done as well so so yeah not, I think, a good allocation of our time at this point.
Understood.
I have only a final question.
I just noticed a lot of this price outage on the Ruggira and the perps.
Maybe you can elaborate what's causing and uh how it will be fixed because
it is the like imagine you come on the platform and you see like a straight line it's terrible
in the past uh two days now we have had like several of those uh of those events uh and that's
by the way so why why uh that type of stuff that delays because then it's a lot of times for from
answer the team to try to drill down to understand
what's wrong in the infrastructure
and this type of stuff.
So that's also like this type of things
between that, the wallet connections,
adding all those new wallets
and supporting those new standards.
This is what prevent us from like
being faster on the app development part.
But so here's the issue.
It's an infrastructure issue.
We are using gRPC to get the on-chain data.
And we have an API that takes this data from the gRPC
and feed it to the front end.
And there is just a performance problem with the current setup.
And our infrastructure provider, we have one,
has been
struggling to find a way to make it work so we are uh as we speak i was speaking earlier with somebody
about about that and we are speaking with a few people to try to find an alternative provider
that will be able to provide a more resilient infrastructure okay excellent thank you thank you for answering that i i totally agree with like
let's make the the bottom bricks as solid as possible and if we have still issues with the
g rpc providers or something let's iron those out and after that thank you
first meet like a solid base uh yes and a stable product before we can uh yeah yeah if you got if we have
if the spot trading and the perps trading is stable and big and deep that that's what will make
the options trading possible yeah exactly for option as well it will help a lot if we have a
depth in this market without that but so yeah getting those liquids is definitely
a much higher priority than uh than options so there is a sequence of a logical sequence of
event as well yeah you're right but i just asked but the the the the it's just the front end issue
right so like nami and calc they can operate their their older indexes stuff like on blockchain, right?
So it's just visual for us,
for the people who click on the browser, right?
Yes, the on-chain part is not impacted.
Like it's really a front-end thing.
And actually you may have alternative front-ends
that don't consume the API that could work.
So sometimes our issue is the gRPC,
so it would prevent the alternative front end to work,
but the smart contract for them doesn't matter.
Like they always operate the same.
It doesn't introduce any risk.
It's just an annoyance for user.
Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.
So it's just a front end thing.
Blockchain is running flawless.
Okay, thank you for your work uh programming i'm out
i'm now listening thank you appreciate it and uh i'll just say pragmatic monkey it's really nice
to hear when you talk about other teams and you're saying they didn't make the cut or you know you
had to cut ties i don't you know of course that's a negative thing but it also shows that you guys
are choosing merit and it you know you have a you have a decent filter when it comes to having teams
i mean every team's welcome but you you got to put in the work and you, and you got to
have the skills. And so I think that's very encouraging for me, at least personally. Um,
and then Nami, um, you are a, you know, a central builder. If you want to, you know, cut in,
um, if you have context, you know, you have a little priority in the speaking channel. So if
already in the speaking channel so if you if you ever want to butt in that's okay but i'm gonna go
you, if you ever want to butt in, that's okay, but I'm going to go ahead and kick it to, um,
ahead and kick it to um bye uh bye go ahead bye if you want to um what i can't see your name i'm
sorry all right bye nader hi that's what it was pleasure to be here yeah no worries pleasure to
be here uh really pleased with the way everything's going uh congrats to the team uh just a quick
question uh since the wing team is no longer with you guys, were they still compensated?
Did they still get their allocation? That's my only question.
Well, the allocation wasn't given to the Wing Team directly.
What the Wing token holders got is an allocation of the supply, 1.5% more or less, of the
RG supply that's deposited in the merge contract and that cannot be changed and
won't be changed and I wouldn't be fair to change it because of course a big part of the wing supply
is owned by the wing team but also a lot of people in the community are on wing and buy it on the
promise of being able to merge it at a certain ratio. And that promise will be on out.
So no, no, no change on that front.
Right on. Yeah, I guess it kind of sucks,
but I guess you can't really do anything about it.
Yeah, exactly.
It sucks, but it's a risk of operating in
in the startup environment, on the blockchain.
On top of that, with a thought of complexity and uncertainty.
And this happened. It's OK in the big scheme of scheme. the blockchain on top of that with a thought of complexity and a ton of uncertainty uh and yeah
it's uh this happened it's okay in the big scheme of steam uh it won't matter like really uh 1.5
percent of the supply is uh is material but uh it's not like if it was wasted on a few
individual like it's going to all week orders and also yeah thank you for the transparency
appreciate it thank you and also keeping my pragmatic monkey couldn't uh negotiate this so
it was just the merge happened like it happened so
you know exactly it happened so now it's in smart contracts uh it's uh there is no uh
no retro writing of the chain to change terms.
Benton and Patriot, I have a question for you guys.
A spicy one, I guess.
I don't know if we talked about it.
How about borrowing against your Rune on Rojira?
What's your position?
No, no, no, no.
Rune can't be used as collateral.
I mean, we can't stop otc desks and other people
doing it right i mean it's a free market but the thor chain ecosystem should not be promoting and
supporting it um we learned that lesson the hard way um you know yeah no i'm against it i'm very
against it too um i just don't want the base unit of Thor of Rune,
of Thor chain Rune to be used in any way like that. I just, I want Rune to be as stable as an
asset as possible. And I want things to be built on top of that stable system. You know, we're
building, like you're building a skyscraper, right? I want the foundation to be as robust
and reinforced as possible so that that skyscraper can grow and grow and you can add floors
It's just it gets so it gets me so nervous and gives me a lot of anxiety
I just you know and it's hard for me to understand the mechanics to be honest with you the behaviorism
So I would really love it if we did not do that
All right, thanks guys
I have a question i give my opinion
so there is you all of that could be done by the way safely as long as there is
a cap on the amount that you can borrow against your rune that is proportionate to the on-chain
liquidity but even though you never know because if somebody's doing the same ceiling on another chain then if you uh well depend on how you account for liquidity
but it's never perfect but you can put like a lot of guardrail in place however first we will never
force that if the torching community is not in favor we are not gonna do it 100 percent uh
second we have I think the same uh exact trauma uh with uh kuji and now roji
so we probably not do it for our token and my view on that is actually i think we should only allow
cdp loans for uh assets uh big l1 asset with a lot of liquidity and volumes and that should be
most of it and and not not for the art and the low cap tokens and that way
we also mitigate a big part of the risk and that's anyway where most of the demand is uh in the market
yeah but it's like give an inch take a mile right if we did that oh it's only you know we'll cap it
at five percent of the supply right and then after a couple years well let's go to ten percent a
couple years later well let's go to 15 you know, it's just, just keep moving the goalposts.
So no, I, yeah,
I would not support it.
Yeah.
You know,
sorry, Kenton,
I didn't mean to cut you off.
I'm totally with Kenton saying,
like when I'm thinking about Thorchain,
I'm thinking about,
I want this system to be stable
for 20, 25 years, 30 years forever.
I want this to be something that
just lasts and it results in the emancipation of everyone in the world. I'm not trying to be
cliche or like, you know, romanticized about it. I mean, I literally mean that, right? And
the decisions we make now are so incredibly impactful and important, not next year, not two
years, but 10, 20 years from now, we have to get this right. Um, and so
I don't even want to even entertain the idea. Um, I just don't want to do it because I might not
even be alive, you know, and, and, or whatever. Like I, I want it, I want the prince, the first
principles to be sound. If we can nail down the first principles, then we're golden. Um, and,
and that's, that's my, that's my real concern here. Um, 100% Um, we have some more and so it's a little glitch guy. So i'm sorry rio
I want to did you have your hand up or no?
I it's glitch for me and then uh, only hans has his hand up
But I want to go to you first if you if there's something you want to say so go ahead rio
I'll give you a few seconds to check your mic. Maybe you're not there. I'll kick it back to you
Okay, okay only hans i'm gonna it back to you. Okay, only Hans,
I'm going to kick it to you. What do you got?
No, just talking for the community. I have two questions. Maybe there are some updates. First,
Rooji is taking rewards. I mean, we all know that they are being placed on a random day,
not two people to game it. But I was wondering, is there any like logic are we waiting for
there's something we want to see before we allow them and the second was more about the
the wallet session i have 10 people with money on exchange are asking me when is the wallet coming
out when is the world coming out so if we can have an idea, it would be amazing. Thank you. So on the stacking rewards,
so technically it's very simple now to start it.
We are waiting first for FiltiSig to go online,
but we are also waiting for being able to account for it
with the analytics.
And so yesterday we did a few tests again.
It was an issue with the way the APR was calculated
for the liquid version of the token.
So we fixed that.
Actually, earlier this morning it was.
And now we need to wait a day or two to check that.
So now technically it's possible.
However, we probably delay that.
So in our transparency, both Ant and I are supposed to be out of office next week.
First time for a very, very long time.
So we are not going to want to, of course, we'll still be online and checking stuff.
But better not do that while we are not in front of our desk all the time.
In case something goes wrong, you never know.
So we probably delay that by at least a week, 10 days max.
Okay, thank you.
And second question was around station.
Yeah, station wallet.
I mean, of course, we're not asking for a specific date.
I know you guys don't do that but like if there's
any update so uh gp nami uh he was actually leading the work for the first uh iteration of
a station it's getting very close and maybe a gp you want to give a quick update there
we're in the final terms of the development.
Obviously, the final term is also the most spiciest one
because it's around picking up the right encrypted keys
and using them that are already on the devices.
So, yeah, no commitment, but getting fairly close.
Will this be for both iOS and Android?
Yes.
At the same time?
Yeah, okay.
Hopefully.
That was also another big blocker we are having,
like having to deal with those apps,
app stores is very difficult.
But finger crossed,
we should be able to be on both now.
It was this very scary news that listed for a day when Google suddenly announced they will be banning
all of that so we'll have lost Google but then they backtrack from that so we
should like we should still have a post because I remember in Kujira couldn't go
live because it had all of this DeFi stuff and it was banned.
Yeah, it's very hard to get on the stores.
But that was one of the big, actually probably the biggest reason to acquire, it was two main reasons to acquire Station.
It wasn't for the code, the code has been entirely rewritten.
It was really, well, the existing uh install base you have
like 1.4 million of uh of downloads uh to that day so that's a big potential if we can reactivate
part of that even if there is a challenge because you cannot send any push notification but uh there
is still like a good part of that that we should be able to reach that people don't have completely disappeared from crypto, Twitter and other
venue since the collapse. So hopefully we can reactivate part of it. That was one of the big
value. The other big value was being able to get this already existing place in the App Store and
the Google Store. And even though once you transfer ownership and do this type of things,
it become a big mess and we could very much have lost us, but we did not.
So all good.
Perfect.
Thank you so much.
I have a question.
Go ahead.
No, no.
I just wanted to say thank you for inviting me.
And I will be off.
I just feel like a guy at the concert being called up on stage. Thank you so much.
Nice to speak to you for the first time.
I saw only JP from Nami. Actually, we saw each other live in person and that's about
it. But it was back in the Kujira times.
Well, maybe you make it one of the meetups
That would be cool
Yeah, absolutely meet people in real life and and I'm really glad you got the Rogerians came up here ask questions
Because now I said the space might end an hour ago
But you guys have been the one asking questions
So you guys can't give me and Kenton shit for letting this
Space go on for two or three hours or whatever it's going to be because this is all you guys
doing it. Exactly. And also I'm glad. Thanks guys, because usually it was a space like nobody from
the Kujira community was speaking. And then a lot of people are very vocal either on Twitter,
sometimes a bit aggressive or on Telegram, but then if you want
to speak, if you have opinions, come here.
That's why Patriot and Kenton do
those spaces. That's the place
to come and voice out
concerns and clear up things.
So very glad to see a few of
our community members
finally taking the steps. So thanks for
leading the way on, Leon. And we had
Bayinato earlier as well.
Very cool to see that. BAYINATOR RULETTENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENBAUMENOVICSENB Yeah, so just so you guys know, listening, I asked Pragmatic Monkey some questions a couple of days ago so I could think about them so I could ask them live.
I'm curious, two things.
One is, what are your thoughts on the ThorChain front end, like copy and pasting RUGITrade and having it available on Thorchain.org? And then the other one is, have you guys talked about
or looked into having a Fiat on and off ramp on Ruji Trade?
So that I've been thinking about it
for the Thorchain front end,
like if we really truly wanna make this a one-stop shop,
why not have a Fiat on and off ramp for people?
So yeah, I don't know where you wanna start.
So on the front end part, absolutely. Like I would love to see our product integrated.
Ideally, however, it's not a simple copy paste. I think it's like you should change the branding
and all that. Like that's really one thing. I think the other part is really around the API,
because we have to think about that.
Like if all alternative front-ends end up consuming the exact same API as we do, which is the biggest part of our cost and the issue we are having already now, it may be a problem.
So maybe you will still have to run your own API, but that's for now, we haven't specced that out.
for now like we haven't specced that out but eventually yeah i mean uh definitely like you
you should if you if you do a front-end uh for uh basically your swap there's absolutely no reason
to don't also include at least parts if not all uh of the other feature and the other book is kind
of a non-brainer so that's you you want that so so absolutely uh and And the second question was about on-off ramp. And yes, actually a while ago
now, we strike the partnership and we did everything. We did the KYC, KYB, signed the
contract and all that, started the integration work with Abanxa which is a direct honor from uh provider so that's coming
uh it's really again just a matter of prioritization uh for now like we say it's like we much better
be focused on on nailing like making the improvements uh for fin uh for registrates uh RUGTRAIT highlighted in the issue I created. Like in the, so RUGTRAIT V1.1,
same thing for the IMM RUGPOOLS V1.1,
and then do the BayZEHR strategy
and do at least one conservative liquidity strategy.
Those are the things we really need to be able
to start to scale volumes of our depth
and a good spread on the, and also offer the proper
analytics with the API for the pool, so we can also attract third-party LPs in all those pools
to make markets. And by third-party LPs, I mean community members, like it's permissionless.
No, I'm not talking about professional market makers. So we'll hopefully come as well. We have a few changes planned for that.
And I don't want to go too deep on that.
In this space, there's been longer already.
I think it would be good to do another space where the topic is me walking you
through the roadmap for the rest of the year.
I think that that would be a good one, but not for today.
But so coming back to Honor Front.
Yes, we have MonksR and's coming. And we will be able to do that directly, effectively from your Torchain wallet to your bank account back and forth.
The downside is all those providers, we benchmarked a few.
It's very expensive versus if you just go and you use a centralized exchange as an intermediary, that's much cheaper because those guys, they rip you off on the FX they apply on your transaction.
So they will sell you USDC for 90 cents of USD or something like that,
like sometimes.
So that's the downside, but it's super cool,
like it's super convenient, and it allows
to completely remove these middlewares that are centralized
exchange that are necessary for on and off ramp.
It's also, it will be like non-KYC below a certain
threshold, a small threshold, I think it's 500 euros or something like that in Europe and 500
dollars in the US. But you can do small amounts without even having to KYC. For larger amounts,
you would still have to KYC. That's the world in which we live. But you don't KYC with us. We don't
want to have anything to do with KYC. You KYC with a partner and then you can do your own and own thrumping.
And hopefully as we scale and we not just us but crypto scales and more, there's more usage of this,
we will see fee and or actually default rates, ETF fees from this owner from provider contract.
And hopefully we can offer something that is really at parity with centralized exchange eventually.
But for now, that's the only downside of that is those guys, they take like a very, very hefty fee for the service.
Yeah, I think that's awesome because like that's all we're really missing, right?
To cut out the centralized exchanges.
And even if people want a one-stop shop, right?
If they have to split their lives up between Regira, DoorChain, and Binance, and Coinbase,
it's just annoying, right?
But they can just go to regi.trade and do everything there.
And you've captured the user, the whole user experience.
And just like DoorChain is integrated in different wallets,
there's different fiat on and off ramps to get integrated into different websites.
It's the same business model.
And I'm convinced that over the next year or two,
we're going to see a whole new wave of entrance
into that space, you know, with the Genius Act in the US. And like, you know, they're going to,
that's just going to save the US dollar, right? They're going to pump stable coins all over the
world. And we're going to see fiat currencies, the satellite countries, you know, basically collapse into the dollar through stable coins. So I got to think it's going to get much easier and much cheaper
to get in and out of stable coins. Yeah, there's going to be KYC and all that baloney. We can't
avoid that, right? But actually, I would never even touch a platform that's KYC lite
or doesn't offer any, doesn't ask for any.
I'd be actually very scared of using
a Fiat platform like that.
You should, when it comes to Fiat,
you should want the platform that asks for KYC
because then you know it's legit
and they're not gonna rug you.
But-
On that topic, we have different sensitivities.
I think in, uh, uh, I'm more like you, like for, for, uh, I would not be comfortable,
like, uh, doing any large amount, at least without a KYC platform, because anyway, it's
going back to the banking world and they will know exactly who I am.
So I may as well not take the risk, but there are people who, uh, want to keep the fully
decentralized experience from end to end.
And, uh, there is a project
so it's a community driven project so they are not moving super fast but they are moving
it's called local money so it used to be called local they rebranded as coral after some
some internal complications and they are still building i wasn't sure they were and they
And they are still building.
I wasn't sure they were and I had an exchange with them earlier today, actually.
And so what they are doing is an on-off ramp, peer-to-peer on-off ramp.
And the way it works is, so of course, it adds a lot of risk because that means you
have to send crypto to an escrow account and the other person has to send the bank transfer
and all that.
So you have to need a court system and all those things so I think it's a fairly like yeah it's not
for everyone but for people who really want to keep this end to end you may have this option
down the line I'm still not sure like how I mean, at the end, yeah, you still interact with the banking world.
So one way or another, you get docs anyway.
But at least you don't rely on the big corporation to do that.
So yeah, there are some people working on this too.
Yeah, that'd be cool.
That would not be for everyone.
That would not be like, we need the banks, we need this type of integrator for for the big bucks for sure yeah that's fine for smaller players but if somebody's moving millions around
they're i don't think it's gonna yeah it's a non-starter and yeah and then banks always have
questions where this money come from blah blah and you got to just be able to answer them and
they want to see the trail um if you do will certainly not work if you do any big amount.
So, OK, why Banksa?
How did you guys settle on them?
It's one of the biggest around. And just looking at rates and checking around,
it was a mix of they were offering among the best rates.
And they were faster to react, easier to deal with. So it was the one we pushed
with. In the future, if we see usage and if we find another provider that could provide better
rates, then we could absolutely change. And you could also offer the same service from the Torch
interface, but with a different provider, for example.
And that also creates redundancy and gives people
an alternative.
So I think it should not be exclusive in any part of the stack.
Can US persons use Banksa?
Sorry?
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
US persons, yeah, they can.
That's also why we picked them.
They have the widest cover I could see.
They operate in, I have the full list,
but I think it's like 130 countries or something.
Pretty much all over the planet.
So yeah, and US included.
Are they a real bank? Or is it a Neal Neil bank or is it like a fintech company?
I don't think they have a banking license but they are like working with big banks in the
back end. They are like one of the largest providers of this type of service like Metamask,
one of the largest providers of this type of service like Metamask, Oneinch, whatever,
all those big protocol on EVM chains that offer on a front, usually they work with them.
Is this an Australian bank? Am I?
Actually, they are Australia based. Maybe they have a banking license in Australia.
Australia-based. Maybe they have a banking license in Australia.
It's B-A-N-K-S-A dot com.
X-A.
Oh, B-A-N-X-A?
Yeah.
Oh, okay. Oh, here it is. Oh, okay. I see it. Sorry. My bad.
There's a bank, B-A-N-K-s-a but it's a bank of southern australia uh that's what i thought i
think they are also australia actually i'm pretty sure they are also australia based so
maybe yeah it's actually a subsidiary or something like that because the name is
uh okay you see a similar gotcha gotcha cool um yeah i think that should be the goal for the thor chain
front end to eventually have everything rejira is doing just slap the thor chain logos on it all
um have a fiat on and off ramp too and then you know we just have a friendly competition
you know we're both making money the same way and you know if like this is the thing like with the marketing if we're fine if we're finding stuff
that works like copy left like have at our guys like everybody else will copy it go go apply
yourselves you know the more we all put our heads together to grow this pie it's gonna grow absolutely
like i i could not agree more for me, like that's like some different people
in the team have a bit different views on that.
But personally, I'm all in for having alternative front-end, just almost
copy pasting and just changing the logo and doing that.
It's a, so in my previous life, I used to be an M&A banker. I was
covering this particular consumer and retail companies and a big chunk of that were food
companies. And it's very interesting, their model, like all those Mondelez and Kellogg's and Pepsi Cola as well,
they are all like actually big food companies.
The way it works is many of the brands we know and use
and we think we have the choice is just an illusion.
It's an illusion of choice.
The shareholder is always the same and the orders.
They own like 115 different brands but all the flow of money all the profit flow back to the same shareholders
to the and that's exactly i think the model to replicate uh for for the better for the
worst at least it's what has been working and a lot of the mA activity of this guy is just finding any new, what's the name,
like a niche brand, like a boutique brand, something that looks fancy and authentic and natural,
and just buy it out and plug it in their distribution network, which is massive,
and just ride the wave of people still
thinking it's a small company on business
and being willing to pay a premium for that,
where actually now it's part of the same machine.
Yeah.
I think it makes a lot of sense.
It happens in the beer industry too.
Like you'll have literally the exact same beer,
the exact same recipe just sold to different brands.
And they just slapped their own logo on it
and their own branding.
It's the exact same beer between them all.
And they're just marketing it different ways.
Yeah, I've been Bebz, Sabbeiner, and a few.
I think those two already, like 70% of the market
or something like that is crazy.
But thousands of brands
So yeah, make total sense. Okay, I think it's a good mother
Well, I do have a question and guys, I'll quickly I should have said this in the beginning
We'll be there next time if you go to your telegram whether the the trading the price discussion or a regular
Regera chat if you want to put in a question to have answer, please do that now
I do have a question for you pragmatic monkey um the question is from r he says
any plans for an app similar to venmo that abstracts away rogera experience to help onboard
normies station wallet will need something similar to what was being built by alice during the Luna days? You want to answer that? So Vemo is, remind me, it's a card, right?
It's a card attached to it.
It's a payment app.
So everyone in the US has it.
So you connect your US bank account to it.
And then you have friends.
And you can send or request money from someone.
So it's like whenever you go for dinner, everyone will just kind of settle up on WhatsApp instead
of moving cash around.
And yes, it's a really easy way to send cash between people.
It's like texting cash.
We have a few of those in Europe as well.
And we have also Revolut, of course, who does similar things.
Yeah, no, I mean, nobody's building that, but that's very good stuff to build. We could either
down the road integrate something like that. Actually, we discussed that, I remember a while
back, but we could integrate it directly into stations. That's a possibility. Or somebody
could build an alternative simplified because station will be at the end
like offering the full access to the ecosystem or so either we do an easy mod on it with just a
few simplified feature or there is an opportunity for somebody to create a very streamlined version
of it that could focus on payment like both model works. And with the referral model,
there's actually even a path to do that
and monetize without increasing the cost for end user.
Isn't Mocha doing this?
Is Eric around?
Patriot, do you know?
I don't know if it's exactly like that,
but there are some alpha on Mocha that I don't know, but I've heard whispers, something like that.
I can speak to that a little bit.
Go ahead.
Yeah, we're doing some work with Mocha, but essentially, without giving away any behind the scenes details, yes.
behind the scenes details. Yes. That is kind of like the, if we think about Venmo or kind of
these person to person fiat enabled and also credit enabled payment systems that are a little
bit more from the traditional finance world or kind of the web to finance world, right? Online.
But that is kind of like the vertical that Mocha is building for.
We are going to work with them to make it as interoperable as possible.
So as much asset compatibility as humanly possible.
But yes, Mocha, to my, I was wondering if Mocha was going to come up in this conversation,
but to my knowledge, they are the ones building stuff exactly like that. And definitely
worth, you know, dropping them a line and learning more about
what they're doing. They've been they've been quite secret, rare
for the space.
Yeah, it wasn't the right time, but it looks super cool. Like I
look forward to do.
And a lot of that a lot of that will come also on for fortunately or unfortunately, a lot of that will come with, there's a whole certifications and money transmitter licenses and kind of the regulatory hoops you have to hop through in order to be approved for all of that.
And then it will be dependent on what jurisdictions you can operate in.
But assuming it's kind of one of those things where it's like, you can't just spin up a money transmitter license easily in the United States. So it's
a question of if they really do take the time to, and I believe they are, to jump through the
regulatory hoops, that is quite a big advantage because those things are difficult at least now.
So I'm very bullish on MoCA and yeah, dkit is uh we're we're in chats with them
very cool i i message eric you know he's a busy guy he's got children so if he can pop up great
oh kendan were you trying to say something i'll say some more alpha on these spaces guys even
after what two and a half hours and uh eric from mocha is going to be on september 20th there had mocha's doing like a
launch um so we we've penciled him in for that saturday so i'm sure that's when he can speak
more openly about stuff like this so tune in for that guys bring in the alpha kenton that's what
we do here we just squeeze the alpha out of these people i love it great job everybody i've got some more questions people are asking questions now so uh pragmatic um severin wants to know is uh for news regarding
the upcoming btc minted stable coin if you can talk about that sorry uh can you sorry i wasn't
listening can you repeat you're okay um severin wants to know for news regarding the upcoming Bitcoin minted stablecoin.
Well, this will be unlocked by credit accounts. We haven't worked the details yet,
but once we have credit accounts, we'll put some more thoughts into that. This is
the main piece of infrastructure required here.
It's really just to create accounts.
The rest will be fairly easy.
Okay, cool.
I was typing out your response
in real time,
so I'm like typing like a maniac.
Okay, I got another question here.
Okay, I'm trying to figure out.
So there was a post,
some Discord,
I don't know if this is
a Rujirin Discord,
something about how a private crypto angel investor released a report onto friends, something with Kida will
do a presentation in front of the biggest hedge funds, angel investors and more in the coming
days regarding Ruggiero. Something you know about? Can you comment on it? No, no, no.
I have seen the same rumors slash tweets.
I have really no intel on that.
It's somebody doing, I mean, it's just public information.
We saw all on Twitter.
No, no, no specific angle there.
Okay.
Um, another question they're coming in.
By the way, guys, thank you.
I want to get all questions figured out now, right? This space so guys go to the telegram we got monkey up here
actually i i sorry guys but i just like i got a tone to do like i see stuff filing up so if we
could wrap this up yes absolutely i would really much appreciate it oh absolutely brother thank you
and i appreciate your time monkey i know this is a long time. Next question. Any update for the meetup in London on the 19th of September?
Well, it's happening. So I hope we see a lot of people coming in. If you are for the TorChain
or the Rojira community, it's the best opportunity we have to meet in real life. If you live
anywhere in Europe and London is not too far from you just come and say hi and that's uh that's pretty much the only update there is to give perfect okay i i don't see anything else and
i really not sure if i should ask anything else because i want to be respectful of your time
kenton do you have anything additional no i'm good i'm happy to wrap it up too um anybody else
yeah one last call to the speakers on stage DK
Rio if you got anything else
please if not we'll go ahead and
wrap her
cheers dudes really awesome
talking to you and bullish bullish
Saturday for everybody
look at that Ruggie price
yeah buddy
yeah pragmatic you're doing something right man
so I know it's hard you're like the
central figure of all the information so but i hope uh i hope that that pump really makes you
feel good i think you guys are doing great um it's a hard thing what you guys are doing and i just
want to say we're all like encouraging you and uh if you need anything at all you know anything we
can do to help you um we'll lovely do that you're're doing a hell of a job, man. And you do a great job answering a lot of questions.
So you too, you too, guys.
I mean, you're already doing tons and yeah.
Thanks a lot, everyone.
And enjoy the pump.
It's very nice when this happened.
So a piece of your day and take care.
Goodbye, buddy.
Okay, Kenton, I guess I'll just go ahead
and wrap it up there.
We have some spaces coming up, you guys.
The next space that is going to be August 23rd,
that's going to be Chad Bareford.
So that's going to be really, really cool.
We're going to have lots of updates regarding rapid swaps
and all the innovations coming.
So that will be an awesome space.
Following that, we're going to have Baloney Bones
from the Thoratine Community Discord.
He's going to be giving an update.
And we've got a lot of things to discuss there regarding you know the front end and plans that we have to
really make this a homogenous um system and you know of course all these we're going to be talking
about rogera i'm sure plenty of times in all these spaces it's kind of it's almost hard to separate
them to be honest with you because there's a lot of uh cross blending. After that, we got an interesting one. Kenton and I did a space
with the Bitcoin Cash community with Wagme.
That was an absolutely banger of a space, you guys.
We had a great time.
Those guys are fricking awesome.
The Bitcoin Cash people are just like our ethos.
I had such a great time with them.
In fact, I'm probably gonna go to Singapore
and meet them in real life.
Very, very cool guys.
So we're gonna have them so far onember 6th um that'll be that one september 13th to be
determined that one's an open one um we'll see what that comes there and then as kenton said
earlier we're going to have eric with mocha that's going to be on the eve of the release of mocha
going live so that's very exciting so we can address that Venmo question there at that time and I know DK
Mentioned a little bit of that and then the following week September 27th write this one down you guys September 27th
We're gonna have a Hans only space Hans only so it's gonna be me Kenton and
Literally him because he that guy is so busy. We want to make sure that it's just him speaking because he's really constrained on time and we want to maximize the time that we have with him.
So please have questions available.
Me and Kenton, of course, are going to interview him.
We're going to let him talk about whatever he wants to talk about.
But during that time, we'll try to have as many questions answered by Hans. Okay. And we'll
see what happens that space. I'm really excited for that. Kenton, do you have anything you want
to add to that before we close? No, I don't think so. Very good. I know Kenton's probably off doing
things. That's totally fine. Okay, guys. Thank you so much. This was a banger of a space.
totally fine okay guys thank you so much this was a banger of a space um rogera i hope you guys are
really excited about the price action i think that is just the beginning and remember thor chain
friends um if you're not holding rogera i don't know what you're doing and similar to the rogera
make sure that you uh get some room too we are the same community now our futures are aligned
um you know i've been working really hard to push Rojira as much as I possibly can.
I'm going to keep doing that.
I want everyone to grow.
I want everyone to be successful, whether you're DKIT, any interface, I don't care.
It's time to go, you guys.
The wind is in our sails.
Let's effing go.
I'm so pumped up.
Thank you guys so much.
We're going to wrap it there.
Hope everyone has the rest of your weekend.
I'll go ahead and kick it to the TC intern.
Feel free to exit the space.
