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⛓️Chain in Focus #5: Inside @HelloTelos
Recorded: June 20, 2024 Duration: 0:57:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, everyone.
We are going to kick things off in just about 60 seconds while we let everybody else load
I see I've got Nikki here already.
Hey, Nikki.
Hope everything's good today.
I'll be back.
Hey, hey, I'll be back in like 60 seconds to cue it off while we just let the rest of the
audience join on in.
All right, and just like that, we've added a lot of people to the audience.
So hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Chain in Focus.
I am Dylan Hanson.
I'm on the BD team here at Dia, and this Chain in Focus is featuring Telos.
So I'll just set a little bit of context here about these sessions and what we seek to achieve
in them.
And then I'll invite our lovely speaker for the day, Nicky on here to join me on stage.
So for those of you who might be attending, you know, one of these Chain in Focus sessions for the first time, we've launched this Chain in Focus series where we welcome blockchain foundations behind chains that Dia has partnered with and deployed.
And so we invite them on to share information about their chain, their vision, and to, of course, explore the significance of Dia's integration into their ecosystem.
And we see across the blockchain and cryptocurrency landscape that there is a multitude of L1 and L2 chains launching.
And at Dia, as a cross-chain Oracle provider, we seek to be on as many of these chains as possible.
And it's of vital importance to be up to speed and following the industry trends and integrating with as many of these chains as possible.
And so we intend for this series to be educational and engaging for all of the extended Dia community and beyond.
And so with that said, I hope you guys enjoy the upcoming session as we dive into Chain in Focus and welcome on a network of networks, also known as a layer zero network,
enabling zero-knowledge technology for ultimate scalability and privacy to support all industries in applications, that is Telos.
And on behalf of Telos, we're joined here by Nikki, who's the head of DeFi at Telos.
Nikki, how are you doing today? How's everything going?
Oh, good. Nice to see you and hear from you, Dylan. Awesome having you.
Like, thanks for having me here. Awesome, like, seeing all of you guys here.
Thank you for joining and taking your time. Really appreciate that.
And, yeah, super excited to dive into this conversation today with you.
It has always been a pleasure to work with you guys from Dia because, like, you're always super, like, great, super efficient.
And I really love that, like, whenever there's an issue or wherever there is a question we might have, you're always there, like, online,
just, like, ready to answer and ready to tackle any issues.
So I'm super, like, excited and super honored to be working with you.
Thank you so much, Nikki.
And I can completely return the compliments towards you guys as well.
I think that I'm so excited for this session because we've had such a great working relationship.
Nikki, you and I have met at different conferences around.
You know, we'll be working together for a long time to come.
So really excited to have you on.
You know, somebody who I'm already well connected with and close with.
And, you know, we already have the context together to have a great session today.
So thank you as well and, you know, the Telos team and everybody in the community for joining in.
I see we have a pretty strong amount of listeners today.
So I hope everybody's doing well.
And by the way, if you guys have any questions, hopefully at the end of the session we'll have some time to dive through them.
So just feel free to leave them on the lower right side of your screen in the comments section.
Let us know what's up and what you want to know if it hasn't yet been answered today.
So awesome.
With that said, let's just dive in and kick things off.
We always like to start by gaining an understanding of, you know, who we're speaking with and who we're hearing from today.
Nikki, could you give us a little bit of context on your background and your journey in crypto, maybe before joining Telos as the head of DeFi?
Of course, of course, no problem with the greatest pleasure.
So actually, I started working in the space in 2017.
2017, essentially, like when I started to work in the space, I worked for a crypto exchange, which was a centralized entity.
Then I moved on to work on a crypto custodian solution provider, crypto custody solution provider.
And there I was working mostly on the intersection.
So I was working closely with the traditional financial institutions like banks.
And essentially, our service provision was like providing them with like platform to custody and trade digital assets.
It was a bit of a tough sell, I would say, in 2020 and also a little bit in 2021.
And then like, of course, we had a lot of actually kind of like, you know, some people underestimate, you know, the enterprise like solutions or clients.
And some people underestimate how long it takes to onboard them.
And we did have lots of cases, like some cases where we were, for example, working with a bank that was like, we spent like seven or eight months to actually like, and have had them signed off, actually.
So they signed the agreement.
But then like, they had a change in the management and the new like, like person from the executive team, he didn't like the idea of crypto and then like, the whole entire show or charade like stopped.
So and then we had to basically move and find another customer.
And as a matter of fact, like after that, I actually joined your foundation, was working mostly on the ecosystem side and with the actually ecosystem spinoff.
So I was working closely with the proximity labs, which was responsible for DeFi on Nier, then also like Human Guild, which was responsible for gaming on Nier.
And like Aurora, which was like basically EVM on Nier.
And then after that, like I was also at Neon, which was the EVM on Solana.
And I joined Telos last year.
It's been almost, it's been already a year, actually.
And time passes by so fast in this industry.
It's unbelievable.
Well, it's real like yesterday, but yeah.
So I joined Telos like a year ago and essentially started to initially like tackling the, you know, building the DeFi ecosystem.
And when we actually started, we had a little bit of a rough start, I would say, at least for me.
I remember like we had the ecosystem incident.
Let's put it this way, like multi-chain hack.
I mean, you guys probably remember that, like last year at this time, pretty much.
And essentially we had to find a new bridge.
It was right, like I remember before ECC.
And then I remember like we were discussing with different bridges, different solutions.
And essentially like then we kind of stopped at layer zero and then layer zero went live in October 2023.
I remember end of October 2023.
Today they also like finally people could claim their airdrops.
And there's tons of discussions around that airdrop actually going on if you just like check the Twitter.
But as a matter of fact, like ever since we've been actually building our ecosystem, our DeFi ecosystem, and of course, like when you build an ecosystem, one key factor that you have to remember, it's not like you just have a chain and you can bring an onboard projects.
You have to also understand what you need from the infrastructural side.
So you need to have a solid infrastructure for the projects to be onboarded and to not experience issues, right?
So you have to have your dev tools in place, for example, your SDKs, libraries, stable RPCs, the infrastructure part, which consists of wallets, explorers, bridges, indexers, oracles.
So one of the key features are actual price feeds, right?
So especially when we're talking about DeFi dApps.
And then like on top of that, you can start bringing the, let's say, the different dApps, right?
So, and that's one key thing to remember.
And yeah, this has been my journey.
So I have been through a couple of bear markets and bull markets, looking forward to the next bull market, kind of a bit tired of the bear market.
So yeah, like awesome to see all of you here and thanks for hosting me.
It is an absolute pleasure to have you always.
And, you know, Nikki, for anybody in the audience, Nikki, you're by far like one of the most outstanding VDs in this space.
So your experience speaks for itself and one of the best people that I've had the chance to work with.
I think it's funny how, you know, you started with these like working with, you know, working at a bank and having these like old school kind of like long-term integration timelines.
And then you go, you know, you end up joining Telos and you're like, I can't believe that was a year ago, how fast things go in this space.
So yeah, it's funny to reflect on how fast things do evolve.
I feel the same way about my time at DIA here.
And, you know, you referenced the multi-chain hack.
And one thing I just want to obviously kind of mention here is that there were tons of ecosystems affected by this, right?
This wasn't a Telos isolated incident, but rather every ecosystem that had integrated multi-chain had experienced kind of the downside of the hack, right?
But one of the things that stands out about Telos is the resilience that the ecosystem has had in actually bouncing back from this hack, from the loss of TVL and all the, you know, the repercussions of the incident.
Whereas a lot of the ecosystems that were affected by this hack haven't necessarily been able to bounce back as strong.
So maybe you could take us through a little bit of the context on sort of like the background and the background of, you know, Telos' focus over the years.
Many of us in the audience, especially, you know, at least reflecting on myself, I'm familiar with Telos all the way back since 2019, right?
Telos did extremely well when I was simply just an investor on the sidelines in 2021 and 2022.
And ever since then, even in the last bear market, there's been so much exciting development and building.
Maybe, could you tell us a little bit about like where Telos is at today, right?
How you guys are positioned and focused for capturing, as you mentioned, sort of what might be this upcoming, let's say bull run, right?
Or upcoming, you know, build market again, right?
What's the positioning of Telos today?
How are you guys looking at opportunity and how are you guys, you know, kind of looking to position yourselves within this?
Sure, sure, sure.
Of course, I can walk you through that with the greatest pleasure.
So, like, let's look at it from this perspective.
Like, Telos started in 2018.
I mean, like, back then, I mean, if you remember 2018, 2019, 2020, like, a lot of narrative was revolving around being an Ethereum killer, right?
To a certain extent, because, like, Ethereum actually was pretty expensive and very slow.
And essentially, you had pretty much different chains coming out and offering different sort of solutions, like, much faster, being much faster, much cheaper.
And Telos actually started as a fork of EOS.
Essentially, it was forked from EOS.
And the thing is that, like, I mean, we actually started in a fair launch manner because from kind of day one, our focus was to be the community chain and essentially to be governed by the community.
It was, like, maybe kind of a hit at the decentralization because, like, of course, like, we speak a lot in this industry about decentralization.
But, you know, like, lots of people, like, confuse two things, right?
Decentralization can be in two parts.
First is technical part.
And the other one is the cultural shift.
So technical part, okay, we can get it, right?
But the cultural shift where we have to understand basically, okay, we have to move towards the decentralization.
We have to make or have the community make decisions and essentially the community drive the future of the chain.
We're still kind of far away from that.
And it was, like, inspiring to see that, like, Telos kind of had this in its DNA.
This is one thing.
And then, like, in 2021, we actually, like, kind of rebuild Telos EVM.
And the idea was here also as well as simple.
I mean, back then also in 2021, EVM was a hot topic.
We had basically EVM.
There were various EVM solutions on many non-EVM chains.
And essentially the idea here was that, like, of course, you have a bunch of developers building in the space.
And most of them are kind of used to, like, building on EVM chains or, like, building using the languages that they're kind of used to, like Solidity or using the tools that they're used to, like, Hard Hat Remix or whatever, Metamask.
And essentially for us was also, like, it's important to capture that audience in order to ensure that, like, there is a builder activity on the chain and ensure that, like, we can actually also drive the users to the chain from the other ecosystems and kind of have the inflow of liquidity from the other ecosystems.
And, of course, going forward, we actually want to also position ourselves being leaders in the ZK space.
And this is very important because, like, there are many solutions when it comes to the ZK space.
But I think, like, what Telos team has done, it has cracked actually a very elegant solution to bring more, I would say, scalability and efficiency.
So, like, for example, the brains, I would say, like, in our team, they're building this protocol called SnarkTor, which is a decentralized protocol for scaling snarks.
And essentially, like, you know, there are certain challenges and the model addresses the challenges, like, it constructs basically, it leverages the recursive proof composition and basically, like, how it works.
So, instead of actually sending, like, one proof, you can aggregate many proofs into a single proof and those for different transactions.
And those transactions can be completely unrelated to each other.
And as a matter of fact, like, you can verify the resulting proof more efficiently and have a constant verification time independent of the number of the aggregated proofs.
And then also, like, the protocol is intended to work in a centralized environment where you will have, like, a bunch of independent actors that will be joining and actually contributing to this recursive proof aggregation process.
And they will be incentivized as a matter of fact.
And essentially, like, the actors will include users, like, the ones that submit requests for the DK proofs that they want to be aggregated, the schedulers, like, the entities that actually coordinate the proof aggregation process.
Then you have the provers, the ones that actually will have to do the actual proof of, like, of merging proofs according to the schedule provided by the schedulers.
And then the submitters, which are the, they actually, what they do, they submit the final aggregated proofs on-chain.
And as a matter of fact, like, when it comes to the rewards, the rewards will be paid out from the collected fees from the user's aggregation requests that are kept by the aggregation service.
And the on-chain actual component, it will maintain a reward pool from which every actor will be able to kind of take out or withdraw their rewards.
And currently, we're actually working on a proof of concept of it to present it at ECC.
That's where, like, our team is quite busy on it.
And we're basically, like, working towards it.
And hopefully, we can complete it by the ECC.
So we can essentially show it in how it works in real time.
And then, like, we'll be also working on the hardware accelerated ZKEVM.
So, I mean, like, it's still kind of at the research and development phase, I would say.
But we are expecting, like, to go live next year, end of Q1, I would say, early Q2.
And, yeah, so, like, essentially, our also aim is to become a ZKEV powerhouse in the industry.
So for people to actually know about it and, like, basically understand the value that we bring to the table.
And we would like to keep on innovating in this space.
It's such an exciting question, answer, rather, because, you know, you kind of dove into, like, I was suggesting,
all the exciting things in areas where you guys are focused on taking, you know, the Telos ecosystem to the next level and the Telos technology.
So, whereas we see, you know, a lot of chains that have been around since, like, let's say, previous cycles, it's, I don't want to, like, actually make a general statement here.
But I just think it's unique and exciting that, you know, Telos is not just sticking with the current technology or rather the historical technology, but advancing as the space changes, right?
Like, forecasting where they see the space going with ZKEV technology and the utility of it and focusing on the long-term vision here.
Like you mentioned, you're focusing on building products that are still a year out.
And I think that's super exciting for anybody in any ecosystem.
Another thing that you mentioned that really stood out to me is how there are multiple forms of decentralization in different types of, let's say, blockchains, even within different dApps, right?
At Dea, this is something I talk about a lot, right?
You can have decentralization of sources.
You can have decentralization of how price feeds are reached, of how consensus is reached among different price feeds.
You can have decentralization of how price feeds are pushed on chain.
There's so many different forms of decentralization in different architectures.
So I found that interesting, your insight on that and how, you know, candidly, when I speak with a lot of teams, they mention how it is a phased approach, right?
You don't launch with day one decentralization, but what you get with a team like Telos that's been building for years now is kind of, you know, the latter stages of this phased approach towards decentralization.
So I really enjoyed hearing about that.
Yes, I mean, like, maybe I can add here something.
I mean, like, you can approach it from different ways, right?
If you're actually lucky to decentralize from day one, like, probably you can write a book about it and it will be a bestseller because people will be buying it and trying to understand how did you manage it, right?
And essentially, I think there's no right way.
And, like, it's not, like, one size fits all, let's put it this way.
Everything in, like, in this space is kind of relative.
You can actually look at what the others do and kind of learn from them.
But also, like, I think from my point of view, no matter how, like, how I have, like, this, like, decentralization max view on, like, when it comes to certain stuff,
I just think, like, it takes a gradual approach.
So, like, you certainly you have to have at the beginning certain controls and limitation and decentralize it as you go, right?
And essentially, you have to understand, like, not everyone from day one will be actually pertaining to those standards or rules that you're setting.
So, you have to also understand how you want to kind of enable the community but also control the community in a way that they don't get impacted by the, you know, by the malignant or, like, by the bad players, right?
So, you want to avoid that.
And as a matter of fact, like, to also bring the decentralization is not really easy.
But as a matter of fact, as long as we're trying to get there, that's what is important, I think.
And we, I kind of, like, applaud and kind of respect everyone's approach to it.
Like, I think we do have to go towards it.
And if we look at many movements that happen outside of the space, like, if we look at the political movements or whatever, like, they always somehow, like, start in a decentralized manner.
And they kind of come together, right?
And essentially, this shows that once the people have the same ideology and they have kind of the same values, the same thinking, they will eventually get together and, like, change something or build something, right?
Or kind of, like, maybe manage something, like, protocol, a country or whatever you want.
But essentially, like, Europe, but still we need to manage to get there.
At the moment, I think, like, we're too far away from it because, like, we're more focused on farming airdrops, I would say, or discussing basically why we didn't get the right allocation.
But I'm very hopeful and I'm very positive that we're going to get there eventually.
Yeah, same with me as well.
I think that it's a mixture of, like, you almost see that oftentimes, like, retail gets away from, you know, the value of decentralization, like, general retail investors.
But I think there's always setbacks within the, you know, the pitfalls of centralized architectures that bring us back to realizing the importance of decentralization, back to the emphasis of it.
So, yeah, I agree with your perspective as well.
You know, there's different approaches to it and we're all kind of evolving.
And it's all crypto is just one big real time case study of how best to, you know, build and deploy blockchains and applications on top of them.
One thing I want to just, like, come back to and really quick get your insight on is you mentioned, you know, the very thorough approach towards ZK that you guys are taking.
Right.
You know, even this tool that you mentioned to aggregate many proofs into a single proof, right, to enhance the scalability of ZK technology is super interesting.
What are the main, like, use cases, right?
Or maybe currently or what do you see as becoming the main use cases for ZK?
You know, when I talk about ZK, a lot of the times, a lot of the times to me, it's still a little bit obscure as to, like, in which instances this applies best.
Right.
Does it always does it always basically revolve around off chain information that you don't necessarily want to reveal the entire, let's say, like the entire amount of data from that off chain from that off chain data on chain?
You know, like in which instances do you see ZK technology applying best?
Sorry.
Yes, sure.
I can actually walk it through it.
I mean, the thing is that, like, when it comes to ZK, like, when people hear about ZK, it's kind of, like, it's already complicated for them because, like, you know, it's really hard to grasp this kind of idea and try to understand what it is about.
But actually, I personally, like, maybe it's not the best way of explaining it, but I think it's always good to bring up real life examples and try to explain to people so they kind of understand what you mean, right?
Like, because there are different types of proofing methods.
And, for example, one of the ways is the interactive proofs where, let's say, I'm a prover, I'm trying to prove you something, and you're a verifier, like, you try to verify that the information that I'm providing to you is the correct information.
And then, based on that information, you can say, like, okay, this is me.
Where do you see that most of the time?
You actually see that when, for example, let's say you haven't, you want to make a huge transfer from your bank account.
Like, let's say, maybe it's not a perfect proof, perfect, like, a resilient fraud-proof system, but still.
Like, let's say you want to make a huge transfer from your bank account, you call your bank, like, bank, right, like, customer service or your relationship manager picks up, and maybe you've never seen this person, and that person has never seen you.
But that person needs to verify that it's you who's calling the bank, right?
So, you are acting as a prover, you have to basically prove that it's you, and the banker needs to verify that it's actually you.
So, what does he do? He asks you certain security questions to understand that it's actually you, and based on the information that you provide, so they can say, like, okay, we asked all those security questions, we know that it's you, right?
So, it's kind of like, he doesn't see you, he doesn't see your ID, he doesn't, like, he only hears your voice, and you only answer to those, like, security questions, which is enough for him to understand it's you.
And basically, when, what's the actual value of the ZK technology is, like, basically, like, what's great about blockchain is the fact that it's immutable.
And yes, it's great, because you can also find all the information there.
But some information, which is sensitive, you don't want everyone to have access to, right, be it your medical records, or whereas you want to, for example, prove the fact that you want to kind of have your, like, grades, the fact that you graduated, you know, whether you graduated with honors or whatever, right, like, or some other sensitive information that you don't want to necessarily everyone see this information.
And it's also, or, for example, your government ID information, right?
So, and the thing is that, like, you kind of, like, there's this compliance factor of it as well.
So, you want to be compliant, and you want to ensure that the people that you need to have, like, that you need them to have the access to your information, they will get the information based on the information that you share with them.
And essentially, this is where the ZK part comes in.
So, we will be seeing more and more of it, actually, like, more of it, like, maybe bigger corporates or enterprises actually embracing it, eventually, even the governments and so on and so forth.
At the moment, unfortunately, we're at a very early stage.
And then, essentially, like, mostly, also a lot of people, when they think of ZK, they think instantly of the roll-ups.
What I mean by here, I mean, like, ZKEVM, and there are, like, different types of ZKEVMs.
For example, type 1 ZKEVM, which strives to be fully and uncompromisingly Ethereum equivalent.
Then, you have the type 2 ZKEVM, which is basically exactly EVM equivalent, but not quite Ethereum equivalent.
And then, like, you have, for example, type 2.5, which basically, like, yeah, somewhere in between.
And then, like, type 3, which is basically almost EVM equivalent.
And essential type 4 is basically, like, yeah, it diverges a lot more.
So, as a matter of fact, like, yeah, you have to have that, like, people just think of ZKEVM in terms of ZKEVM roll-ups in this space.
But also, they don't, like, kind of foresee that there are lots of other, I would say, projects that are working on developing different solutions.
For example, you have Lagrange Labs, you have Risk Zero, you have Alio, which is building ZKEVM.
I mean, there's a lot of tons of innovations going on, and it's still early, I would say.
Like, we would probably need a couple of years to see the impact of it.
But from my perspective, what I would like to say, like, when it comes to, like, usability of it, of course, like, it's, like, the future is ZKEVM, I would say.
Because in the end of the day, like, we will need this technology to be able to share the information and to ensure that we're also protected and everything is compliant.
Yeah, I think that, thank you for that answer.
I think that you explained it very comprehensively and appreciate your, you know, added insight into the stage of where everything is, right, with the different types of ZKEVM approaches.
I really find it interesting how, like, in your example, the implementation of ZKEVM gets us from, like, trusted states to trustless states.
And I think that this can, you know, decentralization is one core and significant component.
But in the other, in other architectures, implementing ZKEVM can help get things even more trustless, right?
You don't need any trusted other parties with your data, but you can still provide a proof of what's happening, right?
You can still provide on-chain verification of the data without any form of trust needed.
So, super interesting, the approach there, and can definitely understand how, you know, and agree with the vision that you guys have for how the demand and the implementation of ZKEVM will grow over the coming years.
Super cool.
And I want to switch away from the tech a little bit and dive into probably, and correct me if I'm wrong, what excites you most, right, as head of DeFi, which is really, like, taking a look into the Telos ecosystem itself.
When we look inside the Telos ecosystem, could you share with us, Nikki, some of the dApps that excite you right now?
What are the dApps that are, like, kind of standing out to you that are currently, like, maybe perhaps even driving the user activity on Telos?
And apart from the dApps, like, that you're going to mention now, maybe you could give us a resource where everybody in the audience can go, you know, find and explore the Telos ecosystem and get involved a little bit.
Of course, of course, of course.
Generally speaking, what excites me about this space is that, like, each time I feel like, especially the job that I do, each time I feel like I have the opportunity to go and speak to the gifted founders.
And I feel so thankful about it because, like, each time I speak to a project or to, like, it doesn't have to be necessarily a dApp, can be an infrastructure provider or can be whatever, right?
Like, I feel like each time I go and speak to these guys, I learn something new, I discover something new, right?
And I'm like, wow, today I'm a bit smarter than I was yesterday, right?
So it's basically a continuous process of self-improvement.
And also, essentially, like, I also, like, sometimes speak to the founders, kind of understand their pain points.
And also, I can see, basically, the problems that different dApps are facing when it comes to their growth, when it comes to the mistakes they make.
Sometimes they ask for advices.
Of course, I'm in no way the most, the best candidate to give advices because, unlike them, like, they're much more courageous.
Like, when I look at them, I think they're more courageous and they are, they have taken the risk to build something of their own.
And I really respect that.
So I don't think I'm qualified enough to give them the, like, basically an advice of, essentially, like, what to do in the cases when they're stuck.
Because, in fact, like, I do believe that they are much more knowledgeable than I am.
And, essentially, because, like, as a matter of fact, like, they have taken the risk to start their own venture.
But, as a matter of fact, for me, it's such a, basically, fulfilling thing, like, to speak to people, to learn about their projects, to understand what they're doing, why they're doing it.
Of course, there are also projects, they're just doing it for purposes, like, you know, of making money.
Some are doing it for, actually, for a much bigger purpose.
Like, I mean, I respect it all.
I'm not judging, like, unless you just want to scam people, that's when I can come in and be, like, okay, no, that's not the right way.
And, also, like, unless you're a token project which wants to just, like, issue mint a token and then, like, that's it, whatever, right?
Create a hype.
But, for me, personally, that's, like, what's really important.
And I think, like, in our ecosystem, what's cool about it, still it's small.
Like, a lot of projects, they work closer together with each other.
And they help out each other.
So, we, like, normally in different ecosystems, you would see, like, kind of a competition between the DAXes or lending and borrowing protocols or so on and so forth.
In our ecosystem, I feel like it's a bit different.
Like, the people are actually, like, they are actually trying to complement each other and to collaborate with each other.
So, I've seen this a lot amongst the DAXes.
I've seen this a lot amongst lending and borrowing protocols.
And that's really important to me.
And I would say, like, I wouldn't want to pinpoint and say, like, okay, this protocol is better than the other or they perform better than the other.
And I think, like, a lot of them, like, contributed to what Telos is today and to our ecosystem in a different manner.
All of them brought, actually, they have done a great job and actually brought, you know, this, like, vibe, this, like, you know, kind of action into our ecosystem.
And I think they have had, all have had a positive impact, which is very important.
And as a matter of fact, like, that's what's important for me as someone that's building this ecosystem.
And also what's really important for me is, like, that the DABs collaborate between each other.
And if you want to actually check our DABs out, like, you can, like, when it comes to DeFi, you can go to DeFi Llama, actually.
And you can also go to also to telos.net.
And then there's, like, ecosystem review.
You can also have a look at there.
Or if you have any questions, you can jump into our Telegram group.
Like, that's specifically for Telos community and ask questions there.
Generally speaking, what we'll also encourage our ecosystem DABs to do is to join our community and start kind of collaborating with the community from day one.
Start speaking to them, inform them about their updates, what's coming up, and so on and so forth.
So they understand, okay, like, this are the things happening.
So let me go and use this protocol.
Okay, we have high rewards here.
Let me go and try this out.
I mean, yeah.
So that's basically how I like to work with, I would say, ecosystem DABs.
And I also like to collaborate with the DABs, like, basically that likes to collaborate with us.
Of course, like, and not all, I would say, DABs that you onboard into your ecosystem will be closely working with you, even though you expect that.
But essentially, the ones, like, that closely work with us, like, we try to support them as much as we can.
We try to do our best so, like, they don't feel like they're not getting the value.
We'll try to actually organize with them, do some with them some marketing activities, organize quests, you know, to also, like, boost up their numbers, to help them with the user acquisition.
So whatever we can, we'll try to also do that.
So it's not just, like, okay, like, one way, okay, you got onboarded, you got your grant, or you got your liquidity incentives now delivered.
No, it's, I think, like, it's a very collaborative effort.
Thank you for that.
Completely understand that.
I share the exact same sentiment in my role as well.
Being able to talk to the BD leads, the founders, you know, the co-founders, CTOs in different dApps and of different blockchains is really one of the best aspects of the role and one of the, you know, the most value that I get out of it as well.
Completely relate to that.
And I think it's a great answer.
You know, there are none that are your favorites, but anyone that's, you know, contributing to the ecosystem and looking to collaborate with other teams within it are supporting the larger Telos vision.
So I completely understand that.
Maybe just one quick question to dive a little bit further into the Telos ecosystem and on the topic of dApps here.
You know, what do you find is actually the leading driver of dApps choosing to deploy on Telos, right?
So we went into depth about the ZK discussion, right?
We went into depth about the importance of having EVM compatibility.
And on top of that, you know, Telos has like pretty impressive, let's say like TPS capacity at 15,200 transactions per second.
There's super low gas fees.
I know that you guys have like an architecture that does not enable any front running.
I mean, when you see it, right, when you're talking with teams and you're in these everyday conversations, within Telos and maybe just even generally, like what do you think is the leading driver of the decision behind the dApps decision to deploy on a given chain?
I mean, you mentioned actually the attributes absolutely correctly.
So I have nothing to add here, to be honest.
But like, unfortunately, that's not the only key driver, I would say.
That's part of it.
Like, of course, no one wants to deploy on a chain which is slow, which is expensive, right?
Like, unless it has a huge community or user base, most probably, like unless you're Ethereum, let's say.
And no one basically like wants to basically, in not too many cases, you have developers willing to deploy on like non-EVM chains unless you're Solana.
Let me put it this way, right?
Unless you incentivize them well enough to be like, okay, we will try it out and let's check it out.
Or like you have some sort of a program to push them.
But generally speaking, what I would recommend to other also ecosystems and to maybe other foundations and stuff like this, what's really important is actually, I would say, personal relationship with the dApps and projects you're working with.
So that's, I believe that's the key aspect that when it comes like, for example, for some dApps to deploy on your chain, that's what they really need and the support that they're getting from you as a, like, ecosystem, as a community, as a chain.
So that's the key aspect.
So what do I mean by that, right?
So let's say if someone, let's say you have a grant program.
I've seen this in the past.
That's why I would like to bring up these examples.
Like, let's say you have a grant program, like, people apply, and then, like, you're not getting back to them, like, for four to six weeks.
Of course, they will lose the interest.
And probably during that time, they will go and start speaking to someone else and essentially will be getting the support there.
Or, like, for example, like, you've got a Telegram chat and you are, like, people are asking you questions and you're not responding to that.
Or you're not responding to them in the next 24 hours.
I mean, personally, I have mental SLA, which is, like, 24 to 48 hours, even if I'm on holidays, because, like, I really find it key.
Communication is key in this industry.
And you should not, like, underappreciate it because, like, if you look around and if you want to be competitive, you want to be a good business developer, or if you want to build an ecosystem, technology is not the only thing.
Like, of course, technology money plays a huge role, especially if you're, like, let's say the likes of Solana, you have tons of ecosystem funds that can invest in your projects and so on.
But if you're at a smaller scale, that's not, I would say, the most important one of the, like, key factors.
It's not the key factor.
It is one of the key factors, but not, like, the key factor.
That's what I want to say.
Like, the key factor is also, like, how do you work with the projects in your ecosystem?
How do you ensure that, like, they, like, you get back to their requests each time when they have it?
How do you kind of, like, communicate with them, like, and ensure that they perform?
How do you kind of, like, ensure that your ecosystem works together?
You know, these are the factors.
And how do you ensure, like, there is no toxicity in your ecosystem?
So you don't have, for example, the cases where you actually promote or incentivize your friends and family instead of actually bringing in, like, different projects, like, gifted developers that can work on your chain.
And that's what's important.
And I would say, like, if I had to actually rank it, nowadays, everyone expects every chain to be fast and cheap.
You can't surprise anyone with that, right?
Fast, cheap, stable, no RPC issues.
But, like, I think, like, where you have the added value, it's, like, when it comes to the ecosystem, your ecosystem support, how do you support your projects and your personal relationship with them?
This is where you make the magic.
And I think this is what the secret is.
I love it.
It's a combination of these things that you're mentioning, right?
The tech and the BD and the ecosystem support.
One of the questions I had for you was actually going to dive into, you know, your tips for being an outstanding BD.
And so I think you just covered two for one there, right?
You mentioned the importance of timely responses, the importance of helpful responses, of generally strong relationships, of, you know, like, the communication style, right?
Even tone, even tone matters, probably.
Sorry, were you going to say something I don't want to cut over?
Yes, exactly, exactly.
That's the thing.
Even the tone, right?
Like, sometimes, of course, like, you may disagree with the project.
You can express that you're unhappy.
You can say no.
You know, like, I've said many times no, but I've also remained in a very good, like, relationship with people around me.
Like, even when, like, for example, they had a specific request and, like, we couldn't fulfill it or I thought, like, it was ridiculous.
And I said, no, it's ridiculous.
And this is normal.
But the problem is that you have to communicate with people.
When you don't communicate with people, this is when you actually lose the interest.
And I've seen a lot of people, actually, or a lot of projects coming from different ecosystems and actually mentioning that, like, they actually didn't want to work in that ecosystem because they have tried to chase the team, but they never got the response.
Or they got the response and the response was, like, okay, like, they were answering, like, once a week.
So that's what I mean.
So, for example, if the project asks you for incentives or has a specific question on tech, right, because they're running into some issues, if you're taking a week to get back to them, of course, they will not care about it.
And honestly, like, you might be surprised, but you see it all over around.
And no matter how big or small the project is, you still see it.
And I think, like, I mean, if you really want to be successful, like, you really have to just, like, eliminate that part.
And for me, for example, even, right, like, when we do the grant request, I really try to stick to the timeline of one week max, because, like, it already kind of makes you more competitive than the others.
Because in the end of the day, you got the responses that you needed from the project, you kind of analyzed it, and then you go back to them.
And they really like this communication.
Like, for example, I've been speaking to one of the ecosystem projects yesterday.
They're still not deployed.
They're actually a very well-known name in the industry.
And essentially, they basically, even the person, like, the founder told me, like, it's so easy and great to work with us, because whenever they need something or whenever they have a question, we are, like, the first ones to get to them.
So, like, here, I think it's also the effort of the entire team.
It's not just the PD effort, but also, like, of the technical team as well, right?
So, if, for example, the project is running into the technical issues, I can always tag the technical team.
And I know that they'll be getting back to them immediately once they're on and they have the answer.
So, and that's what's important.
That's what, like, that's a key ingredient in my view.
And I think, like, it's taken for granted and a lot of people don't, like, pay attention to it.
But I think that's the key to success.
I agree entirely.
It can't be, you know, overstated how important that whole process is for bringing teams into an ecosystem and partnering with teams.
And you mentioned it well, right?
It's not just BD.
It's tech.
It's DevRel.
Even the visibility that the founders have.
I think that oftentimes, like, if the founders are outspoken and have some kind of, you know, like, KOL impacts, we see that that can benefit the ecosystem.
The overall kind of visibility and accessibility of the team is super important.
And I think that it's no better person to hear that from than Nikki and the Telos team here, because I think you guys exemplify that in every conversation that we have.
So I definitely appreciate that.
Thank you for echoing on the importance of that.
I guess quickly on the topic of strong partnerships and connections here is a good time to chat quickly on just, like, the process of DIA and Telos coming together.
Or maybe would you mind giving us a little bit of details on the context of our relationship and sort of the importance of, you know, DIA's Oracle tooling on Telos and what we've been able to, you know, do in collaboration?
Sure, sure, sure.
Of course, I can dive into it.
So essentially, like, I'm by no means I'm an Oracle expert, even though I know some stuff about Oracles.
But, of course, I can give the information there.
So as a matter of fact, like, I believe we started to work with you guys, like, since last year, right?
And you already have been in the kind of uncertain relationship with Telos.
But, I mean, you know more about it personally, I believe.
And as a matter of fact, like, basically, like, why we thought, like, you were a great fit.
First of all, as you may know, like, as I mentioned, like, in order to have a full ecosystem and, like, a fully functioning ecosystem, you need certain building blocks, certain infrastructural building blocks.
And Oracle is one of the important building blocks in every ecosystem.
And why were we, like, really actually excited to work with Dia?
Because Dia is, like, a leader and actually one of the key players when it comes to cross-chain data, like, and also when it comes to specializing, like, to getting the, to sourcing and delivering the customizable data feeds both on-chain and off-chain.
And, essentially, like, you are working with, like, for example, Dia is working with many centralized exchanges and centralized exchanges, like, you're getting the broad trading data ticks directly from those.
And, essentially, like, it provides also transparency, customization control, like, throughout the entire stack.
So, and, also, like, you have, like, a bunch of assets that you can aggregate and we can source and deliver any publicly accessible data feeds.
So, and that's essential also for the projects that we have in our ecosystem, like, a reliable service provider.
And, as a matter of fact, like, this is where we decided, like, why we decided to work with Dia.
And, also, like, the other key thing, like, it's not just about, I would say, the technical structure that what Dia offers, but also, like, personal relationship because I've known the team for a long time.
I know it's a reliable team.
I've worked with the team previously as well.
And, as a matter of fact, like, for me, it was also important to know that, like, once we work with Dia team, like, we can, essentially, if there are any issues or if there are any questions, in no time, we can reach to them, you know, if there's a project complaining or something like this.
And, yeah, and, of course, like, as I mentioned, Dia is one of the key leaders and, as in many cases, data sourcing at Dia is, like, is done through exchange scrapers, right?
So, which is developed, actually, by Dia and the community contributors.
So, here you have also the fact of decentralization, right?
And, also, those scrapers, just for people to understand, they're very important for the creation of price feeds and for assets, like, across all networks.
And, yeah, so, like, we're very lucky to work with you guys.
And, we're excited to kind of what the future brings to us.
Like, I mean, if you have something else to add that I missed, but I'll be super happy.
I think that you mentioned you're not an Oracle expert, but I think that you tackled that amazingly, like, very comprehensive job.
Diving through, you know, how we source to how we deliver.
So, thank you so much for the background and sharing, you know, your experience working with us.
As I've mentioned already, it's completely returned in terms of the excitement to work with you guys closely and to support the Telos ecosystem.
I mean, the fun, you know, it's great to work with the team.
And then the fun comes to life when we get to actually collaborate mutually on supporting these dApps within the Telos ecosystem.
So, we're not just, we're really strongly partners in that respect, you know, and that we're collaborating directly to support external parties within dApps deploying in Telos.
So, no, I think that you covered it beautifully.
And I think that one of the areas of demand that we saw a lot that DIA was able to support initially was specifically the pricing of the Telos asset, right, of the Telos price feed.
We saw a lot of demand for that.
And as you mentioned, there's a, DIA has a pretty comprehensive way of sourcing this data directly from DEXs and insectss, centralized exchanges on the tick level.
And we're able to create this robust price feed for Telos.
So, yeah, it has been a year.
It's been a very great, successful year, I'd say, in terms of the amount of dApps that we've been able to collectively support.
And I'm only looking forward to the future as you guys continue to evolve and as we do as well.
So, that said, thank you, Nikki, for the background on that.
And just to kind of close in on the hour here and wrap things up, maybe if you could just give us one more time in the audience, like,
what's the best way to stay in touch and stay up to date with all the exciting developments that are happening at Telos?
If anybody in the audience is, let's say, a developer or, you know, a community member slash user who wants to get involved with the Telos ecosystem,
what are the resources that they can do or rather use to do so?
Definitely.
So, the thing that I would recommend is actually to follow us on Twitter because a lot of information will release on Twitter.
And also, you can join our community channels or groups like on Telegram and Discord.
Actually, like, unlike many other communities, like, a lot of things don't, they're not left unanswered in our community.
Like, if you have any questions or something like this, someone will tackle it.
Don't worry.
And it will be someone most probably from the team.
Depends on what type of question you have because, like, we have for each, like, especially on Telegram for each topic at different subsections.
So, if you have a dev question, there's a dev chat and we answer it immediately.
So, feel free just to reach out to us on Telegram.
And then, like, essentially, if it's related to a project or something like this that wants to get onboarded to our, like, let's say, ecosystem,
most probably people will tag me and I'll be responding to you.
But essentially, like, don't, like, yeah, don't worry.
Just, like, follow us on Twitter or on X.
And then, like, kind of, like, join our Telegram, join our Discord.
And, yeah, if you have any questions, just come by, stop by, ask your question, and we'll be more than happy to support you.
It's as easy as that.
We'll try to avoid making it complicated.
Absolutely, no, and I can attest to the fact that you guys will be responsive, right?
So, definitely, that sounds great.
And anybody else in the audience who enjoyed this, feel free to give us a follow as well.
We will definitely, we'd love to have Telos on again in the future.
And, yeah, we'll continue to do exciting things together and post about them and keep the communities informed.
So, yeah, at that, I'd like to say thank you so much, Nikki, for coming on, taking the time out of your day to share with us and our community, you know,
all the exciting things that you guys are building and what we're doing together in unison.
And thank you to the Telos team and community for joining as well.
And anybody else in the DIA community, always great to have you guys.
So, at that, I'd like to say, you know, have a great rest of your morning, afternoon, or evening, wherever you are in the world.
And we will see you on the next episode of Chain in Focus.
Thanks, everybody.
And, Nikki, thank you.
Thank you for hosting me.
It was a pleasure.
And, yes, wishing you, like, thank you for guys joining the spaces.
And, yeah, let's keep our heads down and keep building.
Thank you, guys.
Let's do it.
Looking forward to seeing you guys in ETHCC.
Same.
And the updates that you'll have in ETHCC that you mentioned, hopefully, right?
So, I'll keep my eyes and my ears out.
Same.
Looking forward.
Thank you, guys.
Bye-bye.
Cheers.
Bye.
