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🌱 Chia Blockchain Weekly catch up Royalties Guaranteed 🌱🌱🌱
Recorded: Dec. 10, 2023 Duration: 2:20:42Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hey Lucas, I hope all is good, change of time, we'll see if we get anybody come in, here
we go, let me put some tunes on while we wait for a few more people to come in, I don't.
Welcome to the party, we're just getting started, go ahead you're welcome to bring all your trauma,
we are all the saviors, just trying to get back.
Welcome to the party, we're just getting started, go ahead you're welcome to bring all your trauma,
we're all the saviors, just trying to get back.
Welcome to the party, we're just getting started, go ahead now, somebody can love to your mama,
we're all just as fucked up as you, come on let's go get high.
Good power to the moon we go, life is better in the universe, let's fucking go.
Good power to the moon we go, life is better in the universe, let's fucking go.
Welcome to the party, we're just getting started, go ahead now, bring all your ties with old drama,
we are all the saviors, just trying to get back.
Welcome to the party, we're just getting started, go ahead now, somebody can love to your mama,
we're all just as fucked up as you, come on let's go get high.
N-A-T-W-A-G-M-I, we are gonna make it so dread those eyes, consider my table, here's your piece of pie.
Good power to the moon we go, life is better in the universe, let's fucking go.
Good power to the moon we go, life is better in the universe, let's fucking go.
Good power to the moon we go, say goodbye to the moon we go, goodbye to the life that we all know.
My paradigm is better in the universe, let's go.
Forget that thing you've been tougher, it's now follow me to my happy place,
Life is better in the universe, call me to a life unfettered book that she lives back together.
to the moon
Let's fucking go, goodbye world, to the moment we go, life is better in the middle, yes, let's fucking go, goodbye world, to the moment we go, life is better in the middle, yes, let's fucking go.
Hey Lucas, how's it going buddy, can you hear me monkey, I'm having connections, I can, you've got a new set up, no, I just my, my Wi-Fi,
oh, oh, you're starting to, you're starting to cut out a little bit, let me see, I just, I'm sure I just saw something, you posted something,
oh, yeah, you reset your router, yeah, no, you would like, cutting in and out there,
hmm, that can't be good for somebody, somebody who's, who's, who's, who's, who's constantly in spaces at the
minute, can you hear me now, yeah, yeah, yep, there we go, and hopefully my, my, yeah, my internet comes back,
um, good, yeah, it's morning for me, uh, uh, new space, I mean, I thought, I just saw you post it,
and I was making my breakfast, um, is this, is this regular now? I think so, I think so, yeah,
it's going to give me back my Sunday evenings, um, with, uh, with my good lady, that's the, that's the
plan, so, um, it's going to take, it's probably going to take a few weeks for people to realize that
we're, we're moving the time, but hey, that's just the way it goes, isn't it?
Um, well, though, it's a good time, I think, um, uh, to catch, uh, to catch a lot of people,
so, um, and Wamby's here, good morning, Wamby, Wamby's in, in Texas, maybe I shouldn't say that,
Wamby's in the internet, um, he's in the world, Wamby is in the world, Wamby is Waldo with a Santa hat,
awesome, that's awesome, yeah, look, I suspect it's going to be a quiet one this week, because
most people, um, obviously know that we, we set up in about, well, what is it, uh, four hours time
from now, so, but I think it's, I think it's okay, I think it hits most of the US in the morning,
doesn't it, um, what, you, you're Canada way, I think, aren't you, or you're just the world?
Um, I'm, I'm in Colorado and on mountain time, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, but anyway, so, and then
there's, yeah, then there's, so, what's new with you, monkey? Oh, same old, same old, really, we're
just, um, we're still plodding away with the, um, uh, with the, the Fusion Zoo stuff and the Fusion
Zoo contract that we're, we're, we're, we're so close to, it's, um, it's like anything else,
though, isn't it, um, we, we wanted this out for sort of early October time, so we're,
we're running over, but, um, I, I think because it's so new and because the programming language
is so new, it just needs to be looked at more and it needs to be, it needs to be right, doesn't
it, you know, we've seen, we've seen problems in the cheer ecosystem where, um, you know,
with hash green and all those sort of things where, where the lisp just isn't quite right
and, um, and it causes problems, so, um, yeah, but we're, you know, we're almost there, we're
doing well, we're doing good, we're doing good, what about yourself, what you've been up to, you've
been, um, you've been all over the spaces lately with, uh, mice media? Yes, lots of spaces and that
has been wonderful, um, I really enjoy, uh, I enjoy, I don't, I've seen you in the FOMO room,
um, it's a great talk with Grant and Aliff and Dustin and Bessie in there, um, so that's been
awesome, you know, I think too that we are coming to, um, I don't know how close you guys are, but
yes, I think Chia is about to raise the eyebrows, um, so, and I think we're, it's, it's all time,
it's, it's coming at a very, uh, things, it's just many things are, are coming to fruition at once.
Yeah. So, good stuff there. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, uh, you know, the, what, what's amazed
me with, um, with sort of Bram and Jean and the, and the rest of the team there is, um, how meticulous
they are with timings and, um, you know, sort of hitting targets, uh, and making sure things
are in the right place at the right time. And I think that it really does show. And I
think, I think they've been pretty clever to, to sort of coincide a lot of this stuff with
the Bitcoin halving, um, you know, next year is going to be very interesting, really interesting.
You know, I, I don't think necessary, not necessarily even from a price point of view,
although that'll, that, that's sort of the benefit of, of things going well, but, um, but
it's things like, um, you know, all these countries and big enter or big, big sort of, uh, enterprises
are starting to use the, the, the carbon credits on, um, on the cheer blockchain, which, you know,
is, it's just incredible, really. You know, when you, when you think that a whole country,
well, in fact, you think about it, the whole world has to, um, you know, uh, retire their
carbon credits, uh, you know, register and retire their carbon credits on the cheer blockchain.
It's just, you know, it's like, um, it's like cornering a market as such, you know, I think
it's fascinating. Um, and, and I'm not, you know, obviously an expert in, in carbon credits
and that side of it, but to watch it sort of evolve from, um, from where it was to where
it is, where it's sort of now people are starting to use it. Um, and I, and I like the way that,
you know, everything can be, you know, you can use a theorem to do whatever you want with
carbon credits, et cetera, but, but essentially for them to count for anything, they have to
be registered and retired on the cheer blockchain, which is, you know, so you might as well sort
of cut out the middle man and, and just go straight to the, straight to the source.
So yeah, it's, it's interesting stuff. I mean, I don't know if you follow along with the carbon
credit stuff at all, Lucas. Yeah. Monkey. Um, I'm, I'm going to go off on a tangent here. So
you just give a thumbs down when you're ready for me to shut up, but you go for it. Um, yeah,
in 2008, whenever the financial collapse, um, happened, like even leading into that, there was
a lot of talk about the, the carbon market system, um, and, and the, the financial collapse
sort of distracted part of that discussion. But, um, you know, I really started digging
into the IMF and world bank system and what was going to be going, uh, or, or what was how
they were structured. And it was apparent to me like, you know, 2009 ish that carbon was
going to, you know, be the true gold in the future and that there would be like a necessity
for, um, exactly what she is doing. And, and she is, um, well, the, like she, she is built
for that. And, um, I'm very impressed. Um, so yes, I, I watched the carbon, I watched the
carbon credit system more than anything. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of people in finance
watch oil or the federal reserve, but I am always paying attention to, um, both carbon
markets and then commodity exchanges. I think they are both the path of the future.
Well, I think as well, I think, um, um, you know, it's, it's financially, it's a financial
incentive as well, isn't it? There's always something that has to be financially incentivized
for companies, um, and governments to get on board with. And they, as far as I understand
it and correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, you know, these, these sort of carbon credits, you
have to be sort of in a positive to, uh, essentially get, get a bit of interest rate when you're borrowing,
uh, and sort of along those lines. I think that's where it sort of comes down to. So, you
know, if you've got a poor, it's like a credit rating as such. So if your carbon credit is,
um, is poor, then, you know, as a country or as an, uh, you know, a big global business,
then you, you're not going to get the same sort of, um, uh, I guess incentives financially
to do well. So I, I think that's sort of how it really works. And I think that's really
fascinating that, um, it's sort of, I mean, how, how does it work? Lucas, you're, you're more
of an expert on this than certainly I am, but, um, you know, currently the system evolves
around money, doesn't it? You know, if you've got money, you'll get a good, good interest
rate. If you don't have money, you don't get a good interest rate, which all seems a little
bit backwards to me, but, um, I guess the, with the, with the sort of this, this carbon
credit system being sort of put into place, I mean, is it the same sort of thing? Are the
poor countries going to be just, um, you know, uh, punished as such because they can't maybe
either purchase these carbon credits or they can't, they can't change the ways as quick
as some of the Western world countries? Well, I mean, what's your thoughts?
Well, so let me speak to both like why carbon credits, and then maybe your second question
we'll go to, um, why carbon credits, the, you know, the, um, the dollar, the dollar system
was, was impressed upon the world in, uh, 1944. And it, it takes not one, but two institutions
to keep a monetary system going. Um, in, in Britain, that was the crown and the bank. Um, uh, but,
but in the United States, it was the, the federal reserve and the treasury. So when those institutions
were copied, um, and it, and literally it, it's all, it take, it always takes two institutions
to, to keep a monetary system going because money must flow, even, even if it's something
that doesn't flow like a security metal. Um, but the world bank, um, uh, so, so the, so the,
the IMF, um, gives out loans to countries in the world and the rates of those loans depend
on the inputs that they've made into the world bank. And originally the, the, the world's inner,
the world exchange system was supposed to have its own currency, its own L one, um, called
the bank core. And when that system was made, uh, the United States used their, the, the debt
owed to them after world war II to insist that it be the dollar. So the, the long question
since the seventies is how to get it off the dollar. And, um, and, um, a long going proposal
has been to, to peg, you know, the, what are called special voting rights or the, the inputs
that different countries have made into the world bank to something besides the dollar.
And so then you come into a world where we start having things like Enron and exchanges,
energy futures. And shortly in the wake of that, like the, the notion of, um, a carbon exchange,
carbon future exchange and, and tag tying, you know, what a different countries, because
this is also in the face of like the United States exporting, um, it's, it's growth onto
China and making fake money here. Um, and sort of wandering that through the creation of many
goods all around the world where we can't see it. So, so how do you counteract that, that
problem that we have in a world where we can just print money? Well, you start to, to peg
it to resources. And, and if, if you think about like, say, Oh, Dusty's in here and he
could definitely talk about this. Dusty, we're going into why carbon, why carbon replacing the
dollar in the world bank? Uh, welcome. But, you know, so, so the, I guess the, the quickest
denominator when it comes to energy production becomes carbon. Um, because the way to cheat and
to make energy more quickly, um, then to say, to get around a quote unquote, natural or renewable
resources is to, is to introduce more carbon into the world. So that's why carbon monkey
long enough, long wind enough. That's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, does it, does it
ultimately do the same or have the same effect as money then, you know, like, like I say,
like, um, you know, uh, are, are the poorer nations going to be penalized because of this
still? Well, that's a great question. So, um, the expectation is yes. My expectation is no,
I mean, but it's a step in the right direction. So why do I go on about regional, regional L1s
or, or, or, or municipal L1s is because I think there will be a political conflict, but this
is also why Chia is so very important. And the most important aspects of Chia are its security
and its decentralization, because this is where like the fight over a world debt and, and what
countries actually owe is going to come down to. And it really, um, you know, it's the, it's
the hopes of some to make that a less, I don't know, politically fraught fight by, by, by using,
um, um, I don't know, logarithms and technology like Chia to take out some political interference.
Yeah, that's really interesting. Um, you know, I always say that from the, from the NFT point
of view, um, with the Chia blockchain and, and, and it being so decentralized and so peer
to peer in nature, um, it gives people the opportunity, um, no matter where they are in
the world to, to do whatever they really want to, you know, you're not, you're not reliant
on these marketplaces, um, you know, telling you if you can or can't claim royalties or, or
can, and can't even display your work to be sold. I think, um, I think that's, that's
certainly the future. And I, and, and I know that sort of the intention, certainly the intention
of Bitcoin and, you know, why all this started in the first place, but I think it's been, it's
certainly been lost along the way, isn't it? With, with Ethereum and, um, you know, a lot
of these sort of account model blockchains really, really have just been produced to, um,
almost, almost mirror what the, the fiat world is doing, uh, in a way, you know, and I don't
think, I don't think it's particularly peer to peer in nature when you, when you really
dig down a little bit, which is, which is, which is a shame really, because, um, you know,
it could be, it could be so much better, but, um, I guess, I guess it's, it's the evolution,
isn't it? It's just that evolution of, of technology, you know, Bitcoin was, you know, a pioneer
in this space. Um, and that's not to say it's going to be a pioneer forever. You know,
if you look, if you look right now at how Bitcoin are having these sort of, and I say
Bitcoin, but these sort of internal fights between the sort of the core, core devs about
ordinals, uh, and whether they can turn them on or off, you know, that surely that goes against
the grain of what Bitcoin was intended for in the first place. It's, um, it just, it, I don't
know, it's sort of, it's sort of is a bit of a mess to be honest, you know, from, from
Bitcoin, Ethereum, um, you know, it's got a huge market cap and it's done a huge, a lot
of, a lot of good things. Um, but it doesn't tick all the boxes and it, and it does have
plenty of problems. Uh, and I think that's where the, the cheer team have come in and
they've, they've really looked at all the problems and, and really made a difference.
And, and like I said, right early on in the space here that they seem to, they seem
to have foreseen lots and lots of things. And the timing wise, I think is genius as
well. I think, um, you know, the, the first halvening tying up pretty much in line
with Bitcoin's, uh, halven, halvening is not an accident, is it? It's, um, it's sort of
cleverly done and, um, yeah, interesting stuff, very interesting stuff. But, um, yeah.
Wouldn't you, wouldn't you call that 12th night monkey?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We're starting to get a few more people in
the room. I see Michael down there. I'd love Michael to come up and, um, and chat with
us if he's got time. I've pinned, I've pinned up the top here. Um, uh, a tweet that he's
working with, uh, with Don, uh, Don, uh, Kutman, um, a decentralized internet gateway, which
I think is fascinating stuff. And I'd love to learn a bit more about that. But, um, I
hear most media are, um, uh, well and truly on the way to, uh, to use in the data layer
as well.
Any day now monkey. And that's not my decision. Um, and, um, but yes, I think it will be awesome.
Uh, but I don't, I don't know what I'm allowed to talk about there. So
No, that's fair enough. Should be, but, uh, I think it'll be awesome. Um, yeah. I mean,
I guess, I guess the idea behind it is to, um, you know, I mean, is it to store these
spaces as such? So they are, they are sort of, um, you know, can't be, can't be taken
away or, or maybe I should just come off the subject if you're not ready to talk about
it. Um, but I think it's really interesting.
No, I, I, I mean, we all, we all know here, um, the, I, the mice, um, I'll just give you
my perspective, um, because I'm, I'm not, I have no authority with mice media. Um, but,
uh, they, they wanted to, they were interested in decentralization. I knew what data layer was
and I said, why not, why not backup spaces? Why not backup people's accounts? You know,
don't ask them to recreate it. Just give them an option to back it up so that
they begin to understand what the, the hosting and everything is. And, and so you don't just,
you know, you know, yeah. Anyway, so that's, that's, uh, that's sort of what the idea is.
And I think, uh, I think it's going to be great. I don't know. Um, yeah, well, you know, ultimately
that's the, that's the name of the game, isn't it? It's, um, you know, from what I understand
of mice media, it's sort of anti-cent, uh, censorship, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, to
have that, um, you know, almost like BitTorrent sort of backing up of the, of the spaces that,
you know, essentially can't be, can't be removed by anybody is probably a big tick in the box.
So, um, yeah, interesting stuff, but, uh, Michael, good to see you on stage, Michael,
how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Yeah. Very good. Thanks. Very good. Yeah. So,
uh, when are we, when are we going to get the, uh, the decent decentralized internet?
Well, it's actually, I am in my opinion, no promises on timeline, but in my opinion,
it's, it's sooner than later, uh, the pieces are all, uh, kind of coming together and it wasn't
until like, uh, uh, you know, I've been working on the individual pieces, uh, with, with, with Don,
uh, to try to get what I built with data layer, uh, link out to everybody. And then when we were
talking, uh, kind of like everything came together and I was like, holy shit, like this is even more
profound than we were originally thinking. So, uh, I mean, give it, give us, give us the low down
then. I mean, what, what is it? Cause you're talking about, um, um, let me just have a quick
look sort of basically each node similar simultaneously serves data from the entire mesh
network. I mean, how does that sort of work? Is this, does this tie in with, with something that
Don's done in the past or is he just, um, you know, because I know he's been working on,
on certain bits as well. Oh, well, well, so Don's been a huge, huge help, um, with a couple,
a couple of different things. Uh, so, you know, as you know, uh, over the summer, uh, I, I wrote the,
the, the original web to gateway concept, uh, in JavaScript with that kind of demonstrated,
uh, that you can, you can serve data layer, uh, to the browser. Um, but it's, you know,
the downside of that was that you had to, you know, manually run this JavaScript program. It
did, you know, and if it shut down and, you know, everything's not working. Uh, and then, uh, and then
I built, uh, the data layer link service, which is the same concepts, but built on cloud infrastructure
to give it, to, to serve it out to everybody. Uh, and while I think, uh, you know, that was a good
step, uh, there's obviously centralization concerns and I just want to make it clear to everybody that
that, you know, data layer link is, and everything around that is just the first node in the mesh
network that we want to build. Uh, so I approached Don cause I know he had, he had a background in,
uh, in, you know, C, C sharp. And I really want to be able to run a local, uh,
web two gateway as a windows service. And doing that with JavaScript is, uh,
that doesn't work very well. I don't know if it's impossible, but it's, it's definitely a pain to
set up. So I asked him to rewrite everything that I was doing in monos C sharp. So we can compile it
as a windows background service and simultaneously compile it as a Linux background service. Uh, and
that that's what he, he was, uh, uh, uh, doing for me. And, uh, what the original idea was,
what the original idea was, was that, uh, you know, I'm going to build out this mesh network of
people that are mirroring, uh, uh, data layer stores that they like. And, uh, and they, we,
I was going to provide a puzzle that allows them to, to, uh, to, uh, broadcast, uh, to the network
that, Hey, I'm a web two gateway for this store. Uh, I called that browser coin cause it's a fork
of mirror coin, except that instead of broadcasting mirrors, you're broadcasting web two gateways.
And then I was imagining like data layer dot link, we use the browser coin, uh, to route
your requests all across the, you know, the network. Uh, but kind of like last night I realized
it doesn't, we can build that routing service on top of the web two gateways that, that we're
building and, um, and it makes it where everybody has the exact same capability as, uh, as data
layer dot link. You just use, use any, uh, any node that you want and make the request for
the store and the data that you, that you want. And, uh, you know, if, if the web two gateway
is, is serving it directly, you know, you're pulled from the local, from, from their local
service, but if they're not serving that store directly, they'll pull it from the mesh network.
And doing that, we have decentralized the, the, the, the domain, like the gateway, uh, layer
where everybody has the same capability. Every, every node has access to the whole decentralized
internet. It's not just bottlenecked to, to, to like data layer dot link, for example. Um, now
some people might find their, their favorite, favorite node that they like to work through,
but, you know, I, you know, every, you know, nodes aren't always going to be there forever.
You know, I can't promise that data layer that link is there forever. So by using this, like
if data layer dot link ever shuts down for any reason, like the whole, the whole decentralized
internet still has a gateway to access because every other node on the system, uh, is, is
a gateway to the entire decentralized internet. And I just, and then when we combine that with
the incentive, uh, incentives of getting this up and running that we've been, uh, you know,
kind of trying to articulate, I think it's just going to be extremely profound and transformative.
It is, it, it certainly is. I think, um, uh, you, like us, you, you've sort of been hinting
at the incentive side of it could work really well. I think, um, I think there's, there's
definitely a case, a case for that.
The incentives are really cool. Uh, I, I was trying to get, uh, uh, Chia to build this into
their, their file propagation server for mirrors. I don't know, uh, if they're going to follow
my, my thought or my idea or not, but, uh, the, the idea is that, uh, the web two gateway
software I'm writing at least, and I wish that the file propagation server for mirrors did
the same thing, uh, but it doesn't, uh, it'll have a well-known endpoint, uh, that you can
access that essentially exposes the, the tipping address of, of, of the, uh, of the, of the,
of the node. So, uh, uh, uh, I always bring you up, uh, because your streaming of MZ tokens
kind of inspired this idea. So every time I bring up the idea, I'm always like, oh yeah,
just like monkey, this idea with monkey zoo, uh, as a, as a publisher who cares that your,
your, your data is being mirrored across the mesh, you know, the mesh network, you can very,
very easily look up all the, uh, all, all the, the nodes that are, um, that are mirroring
and contributing to pushing your stores around. And then because you know, the nodes, you can
access each one of those, their web well-known endpoints to access their tipping address.
And you can essentially build a script that like, let's just say, hypothetically, you,
you just, you stream the MZ, MZ tokens to, to the, to the web two operators as well,
or, or it could be any, any asset. Really. The point is that we now know from, and on a,
like all the anonymous peers that are contributing to get pushing to serving your data and backing
it up. And you can offer incentives, uh, if, if you like to, I mean, you don't have to,
but like, but the, the content creator has direct, uh, influence over, you know, they have,
they have the tools to, to, to incentivize themselves to say, Hey, I care about my data.
I would like it to be pushed around. I'm willing to give out these assets, uh, on this interval,
uh, you know, to, to, to, as a way to incentivize you to keep my, my data active. Now, of course,
if you can do people to do that for free, that's even better, but, but it's a tool to,
for creators that have direct, uh, influence over, over their mesh network, uh, um, uh,
what's the word, uh, over, over, you know, how, how, how much their, their data is, is propagated
to the mesh network. Yeah. I mean, you could almost have some sort of marketplace. Um, you
know, it's, it's pretty much like, um, like incentivize, incentivize BitTorrent from back
in the day. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of see some, I can, I can kind of see a future like indexy
where like they list all the offers, uh, for incentives and the stores for that. So you
can kind of see what you can kind of like as a, as a node operator, you can kind of maximize
your revenue, uh, for, for, for participating in, in serving the decentralized internet. Uh,
and it's really cool because like, like, uh, you really only need like a thousand mirrors
spread out across the world. Like, I mean, maybe you need more, I don't know, but like
a thousand mirrors is a lot of mirrors to keep your data up, especially if they're spread
out. Like if I was just playing around with the Chia calculator and it was like, you get
11 cents per month per terabyte. I don't know how accurate that is. I think every calculator
I use tells me something different, but I was just using that as a, an example. Well, so
if you're, if you're getting 11 cents per, per terabyte to farm, you can easily one up
that and say, I'll give out 12 cents per, per, per terabyte of my data to, for you to
mirror. And for a thousand mirrors, that's like 120 bucks. And, you know, I know for some
people that's a lot, but for some, like, uh, for some systems, like, let's say you have
like a closed loop system, like, like for example, the data layer, that storage service
itself, you know, I do have paid subscribers. I could easily pay out a hundred
$20 a month to everybody that's, uh, that's helping to push this out. Um,
just based off of the, the subscriber, uh, uh, revenue that's, that's coming in. Uh, so I
think, you know, that's actually fairly cheap to compete with prop plot space, uh, where
we, you know, we might have people that just choose to be, uh, dedicated, uh, decentralized
internet, uh, nodes over, over farming or maybe some hybrid approach. And, and, you know, it
could get quite profitable, you know, if, uh, if you have different people offering different
kinds of incentives, uh, and, you know, really you're, the data is not for, for a single like
store usually isn't in the terabytes is more like the megabytes and gigabytes. Like that
could add up. Like you could be making like 50, 60 bucks a month off of a single terabyte,
uh, you know, hypothetically or more.
Yes, definitely. Yeah. I can see that. I can certainly see it happening. And, you know,
there's big, because of the nature of cheer, uh, there's always going to be space available.
You know, nobody's perfect at dishing out, uh, you know, plotting and filling up a drive. So
you've always got, you know, a little bit leftover. Um, I happen to know that like evergreen has like
90 gigabytes left in each one of their drives. Like it'd be super cool. Like to take advantage of that.
Cause that's already a, a network of, of, of machines out there of drives that hypothetically an over
and narrowed the update immediately bootstraps the entire decentralized internet.
That's crazy, isn't it? That's crazy. How I tell you what, it's crazy how quick that could happen
as well, but you, you know, that incentive side of it, um, it makes, it makes it much more, um,
likely to, to happen. I'd love to see, I'd love to see some sort of dedicated, um, you know,
almost like BitTorrent-esque, um, front end that's that shows sort of, you know, the, maybe the most
profitable, that sort of stuff, you know, what incentives can you get from here? That'd be really
cool. And, and, and the reason why I say, I think it's going to, it can happen very soon
is because, oh, like, you know, me and Don, we, we, we are, we kind of like, well, I should say he,
because he's been doing a lot of the work. I'm just kind of architecting it. Uh, uh, we're, he's
like 90% done of like the initial, like, you know, mirror manager slash web to gateway node slash
some extra tools to help you out. And, uh, the only thing we, we really need to build is, uh, is a new,
is a puzzle, which I call a browser coin. Uh, actually it's a very simple puzzle. It's just a
matter of sitting down and do it because it's exactly like, uh, mirror coin. And it's very
simple. Like the, the, uh, the puzzle is four, four or five lines long. And it's just a, uh, a
simple, uh, a simple puzzle that inherits the, uh, the, the permissions and ownership of, of the,
of the singleton that you launched it from. And then you just add a hint, uh, of, of where
your peer is located. And then it's a well-known puzzle that's easily queryable. As long as the
hint is different than a mirror coin, uh, you know, it won't collide and get mixed up. I feel like,
you know, I might be able to like work with a rigidity. Uh, we might get that done in a day or
two when we finally sit down and do it. Once we get browser coin, uh, integrated into the stuff that
Don's working on, uh, we have, we have the full decentralized internet gateway stack, uh, or at
least the, the first, uh, iteration of it ready to go. I think we might be able to finish this by
January or February, like to like where we can actually start building out our, our, uh, data
layer army. Wow. That's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. No promises because you know, everyone's
working on the free time, but, but I think we're very close. I like, it's just all coming together.
And, um, yeah, I mean, do, do try to think who would you expect to use it? Obviously people within
the cheer community right now, but do you think there's, do you think there's, um, scope for that
to obviously be, uh, that, that sort of service, that information to, to, to get out of the cheer
ecosystem? And do you think that's easy to do? I, it, I think it's really just a matter of,
of proving how powerful it is. And when, when, when, when, when it's, it's seen that this is out
there and it works. Um, I mean, you might need to get past some, some of the tribalism, like, you
know, it's, it's more of a human element, just convincing people that, Hey, this is a thing.
And to do that, you know, I think it's not like, it's, it's not like saying, Oh, this is built on
Chia. It's more of like, Hey, here is a decentralized host system. I'm actually thinking
about, uh, rebranding data layer storage to be like decentralized hosting.com just to be more
generic because people don't, a lot of people won't care about crypto or which chain is on. They just
want to participate in the centralized internet. Um, so once we, I think she is the Chia community
is going to be like essential and, and, you know, being the first users to prove the power of this.
And I think everyone that participates or, or, I mean, my opinion, they're going, they're, they're
going to be participating in, in history. One of the biggest, if executed, right, this could be the
biggest transformation of the internet in our generation, in my opinion. Um, I think you're
probably right. I think you're probably right. I think, um, you know, I mean, if it gets to a
fraction of the size of, um, uh, of BitTorrent and what Bram did originally, then, you know, it,
it, it takes, it takes over, doesn't it? It just, it just takes over.
It, it, it's absolutely like, it's extremely powerful for, for, uh, for dApps because one
of the things that, that, so when, when Ethereum first came out, uh, the whole argument was,
Hey, uh, the, the, the, the, the dApp is run on chain and we're just a front end. So it's
anonymous and we're not associated with it. And, uh, you can't, no one, you know, no one
can sue us. And, uh, what the, what the, the sec, uh, started saying is like, no, you
have, you're hosting the front end from, from a domain that you own. You, you basically correlated
your identity with this service and you're maintaining, and we can, we can have a paper
trail that, where we can see that you're maintaining the front end. So you're liable.
For this product, uh, using the, the, the, the decentralized internet gateway, you can anonymously,
uh, post, uh, the front end of your dApp, uh, to, uh, uh, to, to the decentralized internet
and you basically cut off like the identity trail, like on who, who pushed this up there.
Uh, so from a regulation standpoint, I think it, it, it, it's like another, you know, you
know, we're, we're, we're escalating the arms race saying like, making it harder and harder
for, for, for that type of enforcement because we're, we're disassociating identity from even
the front end.
Super cool. Super cool. Space scan. How are you?
How are you doing? Uh, yeah, no, like, uh, when, uh, Michael was saying a few points, right?
Like it's very much call. It's like, so I have a question that like, so is it going to be
like a file coin in here? Uh, like, so now we have the feasibility to host things in it.
Uh, and, uh, so that means like Jack can even capture the market for kind of, uh, doing it.
With the experience in file coin, I, I don't think that the internals operate quite the same.
Um, yeah, I think, I think you may get, uh, a similar outcome, uh, with the, with the exception
of, uh, uh, uh, we have the, the proof proof of inclusion, uh, capability that basically
proves that, that, uh, you know, this, this data what was, was provided from many mirrors
unaltered, uh, and passed around. And the other cool thing about the proof of inclusion
for those that choose to, uh, in, in theory with a little extra work, you can associate certain
data with a DID and prove that a individual published it, uh, if, if that was something
that you want to do, but obviously there's applications where you want to do that and
where you don't want to do that. So there, it just, I think, uh, depending on what your
goals are, I, I, I personally think, uh, the data layer, uh, based decentralized internet
provides, uh, a lot of options for how you want to interact, uh, with the digital
space and how, how you want privacy to be, uh, to be handled.
Sorry, Spaceken, I, I just muted your, um, your mic there because I could hear your, your
TV or something. Go on, carry on.
Oh, sorry. No, it's super cool because it opens up a lot more use cases that we can do
it, not just like as a file host, right? Um, yeah, that's wonderful. Uh, and like on
the second part where you mentioned it, just like a rebranding it as a generic solution,
like, um, and not tied to like as a Chia sub tool or a sub ecosystem tool. That's a huge,
like, uh, there is, I think like a web three dot storage for one system, I think that they
have, uh, out there and they also brand it like that, uh, right? Uh, even I see the same
pattern for like a climate data warehouse, right? A cat trust, wherever they go, they, they
don't pull Chia in there. So they will just neutralize. They have a solution in place that's
powered by Chia that, that will be in the second. So that will take away a lot of, uh,
restrictions between different tribes, uh, chains that we have. Right. Um, yeah, because
the solution is so huge, so much use cases can be, but yeah, yeah, the whole tribalism drives
me nuts because like at the end of the day, we're all building technologies that, that are
supposed to transform our current landscape and they can all work together like as a single
system. And there, there's no reason why, like, why you have to choose just one. Uh,
so like the whole, I like, so this is like the decentralized internet that just happens
to use Chia as a backbone. Uh, but if any other chain built a data layer and with a similar
specs, uh, you know, there's no reason it had to be Chia. But all, but at the end of the
day, what really matters is that we, we have a decentralized internet that is much, much
harder to regulate, regulate than, than the internet that we have today. And I think that's
what matters most.
Do you think, um, I think space game was sort of talking about file coin there. I mean, is
there a case for, um, you know, a, a cat token to be the incentive, just a, you know, a, I
don't know, whatever cat token was, was linked to this just, uh, rather than individual cat
tokens from different projects. Do you think there could be an overarching cat that, that
was created and issued out to people a bit like Dexy bucks?
Well, I think there could be, I, I, I really think that the, uh, the brave browser, uh, token
omics scheme could, could work in this case. Uh, but I'm going to leave it to somebody else
to figure that out. Um, I think that, that what the right, uh, token omics scheme, you know,
doing it in a way that gives the token value. Uh, you know, I think there's a way to make
it work. Uh, I think that's outside of the problems I'm trying to solve and really hoping
that, that somebody who, who really has a good sense of token omics will be able to put
something like that together.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, it's the problem with a lot of cryptos is, is
the use cases in it. And, and what it's, um, and obviously staying on the right side
of the laws across the globe, which is, yeah, I mean, honestly, like you hand it to
you hand it, you have, if you're able to discover anonymously, the peers that are, they're serving
content that you want to incentivize, I mean, you have their, their address, you can send
them any asset you want. It could be XCH. It could be MZ tokens. I mean, it could be space
bucks. Like, uh, it's really your choice. And you know, you, you would choose what to give
out based off of what the market is expecting in order to have your, your, uh, your mirrors,
uh, you know, propagate throughout the network.
Yeah. So you're trying to build it as a, like, uh, Amazon, like, uh, so where, uh, suppliers
and the buyers can be there and they can talk on what they have the worth of what they're
trading. So you facilitate that. Okay. You give a space and for that space, how much, uh,
how much, uh, the person who is owning the content going to pay for that mirror decide
how much it will pay. Is that something? Yeah. Okay. That's huge. Yeah. And I think like,
it really just a good, depending on the market. Like if you, you're like, if you like give
out some worthless token, you might get one or two mirrors, but you might not get any mirrors.
Whereas if you give a XCH, which is probably like the base baseline asset, you might get
a hundred people signing up on day one because the, you know, that's something that they value.
So I think it just really matters of what the market is expecting. If you can give out your
own token and, and, uh, and people value it and, and, and want to put up infrastructure
around your data, you know, that good, good for you. I mean, there's options for everything.
Got it. So, so I can go to a place like, okay, now I have a project. I want to be like the
highly mirrored project in the space. And, um, so across the globe, then I can say like,
okay, this much space I need, and this is the token I'm going to offer it. And, uh, the
amount will be paid directly to the mirrors, uh, once they start hosting it. And so, so then
I can go and browse, uh, and I can find if I'm a person who has a space, so I can see,
okay, so there is a project being this token and I can host it and I can choose to post it.
Okay. Yeah. And like, in terms of how much you get out there, I think, uh, I think you,
you eventually find an equilibrium. Like if you, if you put out a set amount of incentives,
let's say you put your, you're putting out 10 bucks a month incentives and one person,
uh, you know, decides to host, you know, and they, they get the whole 10 bucks, you know,
that might be very good for them. But then all of a sudden, uh, a million nodes come up and then you
spread that 10 bucks across a million nodes. All of a sudden it's not worth it. So some nodes will start
shutting down. Eventually the market will equalize around a price that they, you know, they, you know,
enough nodes will go up and down where equalize around a price that where people are satisfied
with, with, with the re with the rewards. Um, and so if your rewards are too low, you're, you're
start seeing, uh, mirrors start to drop, or if you're really high, uh, you might see mirrors like
split up quickly and then nor equalize eventually.
There's probably a pretty easy way to determine, but the value is it's whatever else you could
potentially do to make more money. Right. So if it's, this could be a simple, a simple optimization
algorithm built into the software that just goes out and finds what is the, the most profitable
set of mirrors at any given time.
That would be cool.
Or, or, or, or it's just whatever else you could do with your space, right? You could
be farming Gia, right? That's like the baseline probably, or whatever else you could do with
your storage.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, absolutely. Like we, we, that's, we gotta keep that in mind. We are competing
against plot space here. So like, uh, the incentives would have to at least be a little bit over
plot space to even have a chance for most, uh, rational, uh, uh, participants.
Right. Unless you're just have people who are more altruistic or they want to, you know,
encourage this system to exist, then they might dump a plot to do that.
I think you get a little, yeah, I think you'll get a little bit of that. Uh, but in, in, in,
when I'm thinking about it, I, I, I, I feel like that the, the, you get that in the beginning,
but over time, uh, it's going to eventually become more of a, you know, value based, uh, transfer.
I mean, you might get people that, I suppose the only other competition to that is we all
have like this remainder space on our drives. So it kind of depends if you can use that remainder
space for doing data layer stuff to squeeze out that last, you know, 80 to 90 gigs or
whatever that's unused on your drive. If you didn't optimally plot it.
Yeah. Yeah. I bet that's also different options. Like, yeah, I imagine that, that, uh, you're,
you might have a few hybrid options. You might have a few, uh, people that are being all
people that are being altruistic, uh, or you might, you know, or you're going to have people
that just are going to choose whatever's most profitable at that time. And sometimes,
uh, the data layer will lose out, uh, to, uh, to plots. Uh, so it just depends on, uh, you
know, if the incentives have to be right. But I think that, uh, just my very quick, probably
not accurate calculation the other day shows that it doesn't take much to get enough incentives
enough incentives to, to compete with plots.
Yeah, I think as well, um, um, you know, certainly to us in the cheer world, a terabyte
isn't actually that much. And there's so much, you know, you could probably make that more
profitable using what you're talking about than putting a, a terabytes worth of plots on,
on, on, uh, on there depending on, depending on, you know, I guess what's offered. It's
interesting. It's going to be, it's going to be a, it's going to be interesting to see
how it pans out. But yeah, like you say, if you can, I mean, if it's looking at January,
February time, we haven't got a lot of time to, to wait and see what happens. I'm looking
forward to it.
Yeah. Uh, uh, actually there, there is one more piece. Uh, there's, I forgot to mention.
So we got to build the puzzle, which actually we already know what to do. We just got to
sit down and do it. The second part I forgot to mention is we got to build the, the routing
algorithm itself, which basically, uh, queries for all the nodes, uh, tries to find the nodes
that are closest to you and then, and choose one, uh, to, to actually pull the content from.
So that's a, one more piece that we got to build as well to make the, the, the whole
decentralized internet gateway stack, uh, a thing that, uh, actually makes the decentralized
internet work monkey to go back to something that you asked a question about related to
a single cat token for incentivization. Um, I think whenever you look at the tech and tokenomics
of a project, right, if you're going to issue a centralized cat, there is going to be a contingent
of people who want real money, right? They don't just want to camp on a particular token
unless they have some thought, maybe that that token is going to moon in some way and
then they want to speculate on it or whatever. So if you don't have an entity that is, um,
acting in a redemptive capacity, right. Willing to say, well, I'll take those tokens and I'll,
I'll swab them for something else, or I'm willing to back them and give them value. Then you always
have sell pressure on the token. And then that should usually drive that token to zero. So that's,
that's the trouble with anytime you're, uh, you're creating a token and most blockchains have this
issue. And, and she clearly has this issue as well with the amount of inflation that we've had over the
last, you know, period of time in this first phase where there, there's a lot of coin production. So
it's, it's difficult to make something like that work unless you have some sort of entity that's
willing to pay for that data replication. And so it, it kind of all collapses back to, if you don't
have a mechanism for giving the token value, then it's very dubious that people would take it and
treat it as if it had value, even though everybody knows that it doesn't have any value.
Exactly. And that's the reason why I'm hoping somebody else takes on that challenge.
Cause I don't feel that I have the background to create that, that kind of loop.
Well, I think also as well, um, you know, there's, if you start, when you, when you start introducing,
um, sort of utility to tokens, you start turning that token to something that, that it probably
wasn't intended for in the first place, you know, like governance type tokens as well, whether there
could be some sort of governance, um, token, you know, that instantly becomes, uh, you know,
uh, you know, the sec may become instantly interested at a certain point in time about
it and things like that. So it's very difficult. You know, that, that's one of the reasons why
when, when I thought about the monkey zoo token and how we, how we distribute it, you know, what's
the point of it, what's the point of it. And, um, you know, to keep it essentially, essentially
the monkey zoo token is to keep it in house. It's pretty much like, you know, we'll, we'll allow
you to buy things with it basically. And that's pretty much it. Use it for in game, um, economics
and things like that. So, um, well, you are doing, you are doing the exact thing that
I, that I mentioned, cause you're, you're offering her redemption, right? You're saying
I'm willing to take these tokens back. I'm giving them out. And essentially you're like
providing a little bit of freebie, right? You know, if you buy the stuff, then slowly
over time, you can get like one free, right? If you camp on a monkey zoo NFT and hold it for
long enough, then, you know, you might be able to get another one or a fusion zoo or whatever.
So like you are doing the exact same thing that I talked about, but that's what Michael
said. He's like, I don't want to be in the business of trying to give a centralized cat
value. I want to build data layer. And so, you know, somebody else wants to try and build
an ecosystem around it, but they would have to do the thing that you're doing, right?
Which is to take the token back and willing to, you know, let them come home to roost and
have all of them. If you don't have an entity that wants them all back, then you have cell
pressure and the token should drive towards zero.
Yeah, go on, Lucas.
Grant, there's a concept that I don't know that we've talked about that I've been
interested in that I think Chia can do because of its smart coin model, like, which is probably
already possible in other chains. But I think it would be interesting to see coins that just
evaporate after amount of time that rust or rot, so to speak. Do you ever see that in a coin?
What, like a self-burning coin?
Yep.
You probably could with some of the assertions that we've got now. We probably could with some
of the assertions that we have now in Chia, because you could say this coin is unspendable
after a certain date. So if that was part of the puzzle, then, you know, you could reveal
the puzzle and try and spend it. But like, it's not going to go through because there's a coin
assertion in there that doesn't, that doesn't work. You probably could pull that off in Chia,
make an unspendable coin. It wouldn't rot. It would never go away. I mean, the coin that
was created still would exist, but it would be unspendable and sort of just be this stone
that was in your wallet.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You can make them rot essentially also with transaction taxes too. And it would also, I
I just thought, and Michael, you mentioned inflation, but, you know, part of that's to the supply.
It's just interesting, like some ways in thinking about it is, is like, like having an individual,
individual, I don't know, expiration or seniorage in that supply could be very interesting.
I mean, doesn't, isn't, I mean, wasn't the hex sort of based along those lines where essentially,
you know, a certain percentage of it is burnt. I don't know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm thinking
of something else.
Maybe I'm delving into the wrong area.
Well, like a coin, a coin is a record in a database. You can't delete that immutable
blockchains. Like once a, once a coin's been created, you can't get rid of it, but you could
do certain more sophisticated things. So for instance, with the fact that we have this
concept of clawback, right, you could make this coin so that the user has to scrape it
out of the escrow puzzle. They have to actually claim it to get it. And that would make it more
like what you're, what you're saying, which is to make the coin rot, right? If you don't
go grab it, then you won't be able to get it because the person who ostensibly quote unquote
gave it to you, um, you didn't claim it during the clawback period. And so you never made it
yours. But if, if a coin's been transferred to you, it's been given to you. It's the entry
in the database has been made and it's yours. Then there's only two cases. It's either spendable
or unspendable. I don't, I don't, this idea that you could make it rot or like disappear. I'm not,
not sure that would really work unless the client adhered to that and just would sort of say,
well, I'm never going to show you a coin that's unspendable. So it would just ignore coins,
which were not capable of being spent. That would be the only equivalent.
Well, in the account model, you can do a rebase, but I don't know if you can do that
with coin set model. And I think that's a really bad thing to do in the first place anyways.
What are you saying foods? What do you reckon?
Go on.
Do we need to, do we need to just kind of cookies in here?
We definitely, I mean, he's the guy that you probably want to look to if you want to build
a circular economy based on decentralized applications and gateways.
Um, he, he has a lot of the knowledge, especially in terms of like exactly hex kind of works.
Like you were saying, um, the interesting
part of hex that a lot of people don't necessarily talk about enough is it does have a time aspect to it
as well. Right. So yeah, there is, um, you know, there is probably some opportunity there for me.
I mean, looking at how it operates, um, you're definitely going to want, you know, probably a more robust cap than anything that we currently have.
Um, I mean, this could be like the actual first real project built on Chia.
Um, well, other than like the cat trust bullshit, but like, this could be like the first community run coin that actually has like real utility.
You know, it's like the, uh, so, um, yeah, as the developers had trust, uh, I don't consider it bullshit.
It's actually really awesome. It is awesome. It's just something that we don't necessarily get to play with.
Right. So, um, um, it's one of those things where it's just like, it's kind of there, but it's like not there.
Um, but yeah, so this is something that actually we get to kind of play with.
And no, yeah, I think I, I actually think, you know, giving the coins value probably is a lot easier considering what you're looking like the scope of what you're trying to do.
Um, so I think there'll be like, it'll be fairly easy to come up with like a lot of utility for it.
And I mean, there could be other opportunities, um, elsewhere within the community that we can kind of, you know, get behind this and, and take this incentive token that, uh, you know, Michael needs and run with it as our incentive token for the entire, you know, like this ecosystem as well.
Like there, there is some opportunity, like I was, I've been talking about incentive tokens a lot recently and, you know, kind of having your shit cats and all these other tokens in your wallet that aren't necessarily doing anything right now.
If you're not, you know, providing liquidity, um, you know, this is a really good opportunity to kind of meld everything together.
And, and, you know, for especially somebody like you monkey zoo, who probably plans on utilizing a lot of this, there's some, you know, collaboration for you as well to, um, help prop up, uh, this network.
So essentially what we do is we insulate the network through the community by building an infrastructure for Michael to have utility by, you know, having all of our coins kind of give it its utility.
Right. And just kind of build like a web of infrastructure that way.
Also keep in mind, this is all permissionless. Like you don't have to have one token that is the power.
That's absolutely. Yeah. You can have incentive tokens.
Yeah. You can have multiple incentive programs that are competing with each other.
Maybe some of them, uh, gross or some of them die, but like, like, you don't have to say like, this is the one token that rules them all for, for decentralized internet.
I feel that like we can start with one. And if, uh, and someone later down the road says I can improve on this, there's nothing stopping them from building that.
And you might have a period where you have both of them. And that's great for, for the, uh, the note, the, the decentralized internet gateways, as long as there's value between the two.
Uh, it may, and you know, and as that, as that, uh, evolves like, yeah, that's, that's just why I think running a decentralized internet gateway node can potentially get pretty profitable because you have a lot of people that value data for different reasons that want to see it, uh, out there. Uh, and you might have a lot of people competing with incentives that just kind of stack on top of each other.
Um, yeah, I mean, I've been thinking there's something like that is definitely needed. Uh, you know, there was running through my, my thoughts the other day was how, um, how do we have a group of, a group of space hosts that can, that can sort of, you know, live in the cheer ecosystem, but also, um, you know, the incentive for people that come along is, you know,
to tap into say, um, you know, super spaces API and, you know, use that token to reward people when they come and listen, or if they come up and speak, they're rewarded and think, so, you know, maybe that could all tie in as one sort of giant incentive coin.
I mean, if you're going to choose one incentive, I think XCH, there's no equal. I mean, everyone recognizes that it has value. Everyone recognizes. Go ahead.
I would agree with, I would agree with that a hundred percent. This is, uh, this exact thing that I talked to Dracatus about. I'm like, if you want to have people pay and have that thing look like money and, and it needs to function like money, we already have that. That's, that's XCH.
So, you know, like creating a colored coin, a new coin, a cat on top of Chia, like it, it has to say, well, it, it's not just money. It's something else. It has to have some kind of additional functionality, or it has to have some reason why it isn't just XCH. So, you know, something like circuit DAO and the way that they're creating.
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense because, you know, you're, you're saying, well, I don't want it to function like XCH. I want it to trade in a different way. And I want it to trade at a, at a particular type of value. And because of that, it's, it's inappropriate to try to use XCH for it, but you're using the money thing to back it. Right. So you're, you're trying to say, I want this thing, which has a free floating value against other things, but I want this other thing to be
backed by the money looking thing. And that's why it needs to exist. So in this particular case, you're asking for a money type of thing. You're asking people to provide a valuable service to host your data. Right. And you want to pay them. Well, you know, why not give them money? Like what's the point of giving them something that looks like money and then trying to build this weird system on top of it that isn't money. And then eventually some way becomes money in a way that, you know, somebody can use it like money.
It's, it's, it just seems weird. Like use money as money. And unless you're going to do something and the token itself is the thing that needs to have some additional functionality, just let money be money.
But what, uh, the, the, uh, the only, uh, like that, that's really where my thoughts at, but there is a, an exception. Like if you look at monkey zoo tokens, he's built a way to give them value.
So he, uh, he, uh, he can essentially pay out monkey zoo tokens without it coming out of his own pocket since he's the mentor.
Um, yep. Yep. But he's giving it redemptive value. I think, I think that's always the dividing line.
Well, that's important. Yeah. But if you're able to put together that system, it's a way of paying for mirrors without actually paying for mirrors.
As long as you don't abuse it and send it to zero.
Well, but then the people that are redeeming that token are essentially paying for the data storage. And I think that that inverts it because the people who want the data replicated really ought to be paying for it.
And so you're, again, you're, you're working through a weird centralized intermediary that you're expecting to not rug you.
And that seems weird. Why not just use the money that, you know, can't get rugged, which is good point.
What do you, what do you, what do you think, Lucas?
Well, to me, ideally you would like, we would see ecosystems where the projects, uh, were, you know, providing, providing a, a reason for people to record and retreat information on a blockchain.
Um, and, and, and, and that would be determining what the, um, the consensus like security price was.
And, and I guess a question for, for you and Michael, because you're developers, um, you know, we also, you, you, you, you guys talk in terms of XCH, but, but, but there are a trillion mojos in every one, each with a puzzle.
So like what happens whenever a mojo is worth $30, um, do, do you, do you ever think like that as a possible, like possibility or, uh, I mean, do you, do you also, do you think?
If that ever happens, I can work on data layer full time.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, I don't, I don't, it's just, I, I just, I just, I just, not, not to, to make an expectation to that, but, but do you think in terms of, do, do you?
Well, well, the, the incentive, the incentive tools that I'm, I'm, I'm looking at, um, sorry, you're, you're cutting out.
Yeah, Lucas, you're a rug.
Go on, try again, Lucas.
Let's have a listen.
Well, while he gets back, I'll, I'll just say one thing.
The, the incentive tools that we're looking at don't force you to pay a, a, a set amount of XCH.
So as the value of XCH goes up and down, uh, you, you know, as the person providing the incentives, you can, you can modify what you're paying out, uh, every single time you put out a, a, a, a distribution to the network.
That, uh, that, that brings up a curious point of exactly how you're going to correctly price it.
And then we're going to be back into the same situation that circuit DAO finds themselves in, which is needing a decentralized legion of oracles.
Like what is the current price for data storage, right?
You wouldn't, you wouldn't want that to be fixed because you're right.
If you price it in XCH, then if XCH goes way up or way down, then the price for data storage is, is mispriced.
So you get this weird situation where you're going to need to, uh, somehow have a, have an updated price for what storage costs.
Also would be the case if somehow Western digital comes out with something that's, I don't know, way more efficient or something.
And then a whole bunch of people have it and then now they can store data cheaper than everybody else.
I, I think, I really think it should be up to the, the, the person who's providing the incentives.
If their incentives are too low, then people will stop mirroring, uh, being nodes for those stores.
Obviously if they're high, you're going to get a lot of them, uh, but you know, then it'll eventually, it'll plateau as, as, you know, it's spread out thinner and thinner and thinner.
So, you know, you, you would basically just say, okay, I'm interested in, I think 500, uh, nodes, uh, directly backing up my data fits my, my, what I, what I want, what my use case.
Uh, and, uh, you put out, you know, you kind of just try, you know, try the waters, put out different prices to see what it takes to get to, to those numbers.
Um, and, uh, and then if, if you go, go beyond those numbers, you can start dialing back your incentives.
And if you go too low, you can increase your incentives.
So it's really the market will tell you like how much, uh, how much you need to provide in order to reach the, the, the number, the number of mirrors and nodes, uh, that you're, you desire for, for your case.
It's sort of, um, it reminds me a little bit of, uh, if anyone's ever used, um, Twitch, Twitch.tv, um, you know, users sort of incentivize people to watch by dishing out, you know,
tokens that aren't crypto as such, but you can redeem those in their, obviously their shops and things like that.
But, um, I'm just, I'm sure there must be a way to have one, one sort of centralized, um, coin as such that, that can be used.
But it's, it's, it's sort of almost, you're almost asking maybe the, the people that are putting the data up to be mirrored to kind of back that coin.
I mean, aren't you, you know, you could easily do something like that.
If, if I consider data layer, my data layer storage service to be the hub of this, which I don't, but in this case I could, I could take, I could say I am the authority.
Um, we just shout this coin and I'll pay it.
But, but then like what happens when, uh, when my service shuts down, you know, all of a sudden, like it's gone.
Um, so I, I, I don't, I don't know, uh, if, I mean, I, I feel like it, like, I agree with Grant in that XCH is hands down the best for, for this scenario.
Um, yeah, because you're like, you, you know, there's, there's tears to, to your service, isn't there?
You know, if I think it's over, over eight or over 10 mirrors, there's like a 10, $10 a month charge, for instance.
So, um, you know, I'm wondering if there's, there's a way that you, obviously the more, the more people that use it, the more income you can generate.
Um, and I'm just wondering if the people, if the people that are using the service, uh, can sort of back that coin.
I'm just thinking out loud, really.
Well, the current people that are paying for this service, what they're doing is they're directly funding my data layer development, um, and also making, paying for the stuff that's temporarily centralized while I get people onboarded until, uh, until I get it decentralized.
Uh, so I definitely, you know, thank you to everybody that's, uh, that's signed up because you are, you are helping me, uh, you are helping me develop all this.
And obviously the more, more people that, that, that pitch in that, the faster the development will go.
Um, but I, eventually I want to remove that subscription altogether.
Uh, I, I, I, it's, I just consider it a necessary evil right now to help fund.
Uh, my goal is to make it where I don't need to ask for anything.
And this is a free and open protocol for everybody.
So along those lines, Michael, I've been thinking about consumer and I, I, I DM'd you the other day about this because, you know, if, if anybody's watching sort of the stuff that I've been tweeting about and looking at, I've, I've been going hard into what is Bitcoin currently working on.
And I know it's a Chia space, so I'm going to try and keep this brief, but, uh, I, I've been looking at ordinals, right.
And the way that this works and, you know, in a space recently, it was, it became evident that the way that ordinals are storing data has kind of two pretty substantive problems with it.
It's, it's, it's very brittle, right.
In that the underlying way that the data is being stored along with the, um, the sat, right.
It's, it's not a hard binding like we have on Chia.
So in Chia, when you create an NFT or you create something, there's this, this covenant, which is enforced, which is very strong.
You're like, you can't errantly spend an NFT as XCH, but with ordinals, you can errantly spend your ordinal.
That was always weird to me.
What's that?
I said that was always weird to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really weird.
But the other really weird part of it is that the place they're putting the data is prunable.
So like the, the Bitcoin network is not required to store it.
And when challenged on that, right, like this is kind of, in my mind, it's, it's a bit of the Achilles heel around the way the ordinals protocol works is not any particular Bitcoin node is required to store that data.
It's not part of the canonical chain.
It's prunable.
And because of that, it's, it's like a good segue into, well, what does data layer really provide?
And, and the term that I've been using to try to help people understand that is saying data adjacency, right?
And I, and I think this is the kind of technology which helps to solve the problem that they're running into, which is you have data that you want some number of people to replicate.
So that your particular project's data doesn't evaporate, right?
And so when, when challenged on this point, they're like, well, there's a lot of us in the ordinals community and we are going to store the data.
So you can't, you can't stop it.
And it's like, okay, sure.
But like, what is the value of those people storing that ordinal data over time, especially for projects that they have no interest in?
If you start making really big ordinal data, right?
Stuff that's megabytes and hundreds of megabytes and whatever.
And the Bitcoin nodes really aren't set up to store that or aren't ready to store, you know, this massive increase in the amount of data.
You may end up in a situation where they're like, well, this project is kind of dead.
I'm just going to prune this out.
I don't give a crap about this.
And then you immediately fall into the situation that, that you've been talking about, Michael, which is there's data that some people want stored and they're willing to pay for it.
They're willing to incentivize people to do that.
And the ordinals community has found themselves in that particular situation is they're expecting the altruistic behavior of Bitcoin miners to continue to replicate data, which is technically prunable and not needed to store the chain.
And therefore, you have this split of the people who are saying, you're spamming the chain, you're putting stuff in to the database in a way that, like, we don't even have to store it.
And so we're not going to.
And so, you know, screw it.
We're just going to prune this out and potentially even going to block your data transfers if you try and put it in there.
So I think this is a community and a technology that's actually screaming for data layer and don't even really know that they need it.
And Enerton put it best.
Data layer is Darwinian data.
Like the data that's most valued is the data that's going to survive.
And some public goods will be valued without the need for incentives.
So it may possibly like a Wikipedia or maybe a, or the tail database, you know, there will be people that value the data that will, that will put, that will keep it up and running without, without anything.
But for your average project, no one values that data more than you.
So you have to make up the difference for everybody else that doesn't care about it.
And that's where the incentives come in.
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's interesting because I think, I don't know if you can talk more about this, Grant, because as far as I know, it's, it's the ordinal data stored in, in the witness data fields on Bitcoin.
And I don't, I don't know a great deal about it, but there's no, I don't think there's any guarantees, like you're saying, that, that lasts forever, is there?
There's, you know, there's, you know, like you say, they're, they're now going through all this right now.
And, you know, and I'm speaking to you when ordinal first came out, you know, the, the, the sort of, the thoughts behind it were, it's going to be problematic when the bull run comes because you're not going to be able to move these things.
You're not going to be able to sell them.
But do you think, I mean, what I see now is that the miners currently are just, are just cashing in on it.
They're raking it in.
But do you think at some point they're going to come to a point where people running nodes and things are just going to say, now, screw this.
You know, there's too much data on this chain right now because.
We're there, we're there right now.
And yes.
I guarantee it.
Yeah.
This is, this is, this is happening in real time right now.
Like there is a huge fight brewing, you know, started by ocean mining and Luke Dasher Jr. is saying, this is spam.
I, this was never supposed to be here and this is wrong and you're exploiting a bug and we shouldn't have to store your stupid monkey pictures.
And the people in the ordinalist community are saying, no, no, this is part of what should be allowed on a permissionless blockchain.
And they are storing the data in a place that isn't permanent.
It took me a little bit of, you know, digging into it and kind of getting deeper into the technology to sort of, you know, convince myself that they, they're, they're not correct.
Because their first assertions were that they were putting the data in a way that needed to be replicated and it was required.
But then, you know, finally they admitted that it wasn't.
And if you dig deeper into the technical guts of it, they're, the people who said that you have to store this data, they're, they're a hundred percent wrong.
You, you don't have to store it.
It's prunable.
Yeah.
And I, you know, I'm not an expert, so forgive me if I'm saying something wrong, but in my mind, like the miners might be cashing in on it, like this upfront cost of, of getting them built.
But, you know, later down the road, when they're no longer, you know, getting paid for it, you know, they might just say, okay, well, I already had the money.
You know, I'm just, I don't need this anymore.
And they just print it out.
I mean, is that.
Yep.
Yep.
A hundred percent.
Yes.
It will take the fee.
Sure.
It's like, we'll take the fee for, to, to replicate your block and to get it in there.
But then, you know, once we've gone, you know, whatever amount of time past that required space that it needed to be there, then you can absolutely just jettison it and dump it.
So I would not be surprised to see, you know, the, the players who are supporting or knows quote unquote, uh, just starting to like dump the data.
And then, you know, what is going to be required is if guys like, you know, the taproot wizards want their data to continue to be available, they'll have to run a set of nodes that the ordinal community can specifically point at where they can go back and get their data, which is like exactly what data layer is.
But in a more formalized way to say, there's a decentralized way to discover the data that's needed to support this project.
This might be like what you were trying to get at the other, the other day, Grant, but it seems that like we do the proving that the, the ordinal exists on the chain and then the doing it might, could be on their, our data layer or their data, data layer or any other storage point.
The reason I asked you the question I asked you, because it's a, it comes down to a, can they do it?
Because if there's a, you can't do it, right?
If there's not enough juice in Bitcoin script to really pull this off correctly, then you can actually come at that community and say, okay, guys, you have two choices here.
You can either use this mechanism, which exists because Chia has more juice than you.
And you have to admit that it doesn't, or it's a, it's starting to push Bitcoin in a way that would say you need a Turing complete smart contract language and continuing to run Bitcoin script with all of your opcodes turned off or most of your opcodes turned off is not the right move.
And I was, I was probably the wrong person to ask because my response is the community doesn't have enough juice.
Well, no, see the community has the juice, right?
I mean, there is a lot of energy in ordinals and that's undeniable.
Like there's a lot of value that's being moved around and those projects are being supported.
People are buying those things and they're creating them.
They're willing to pay those fees.
I mean, God, the fees on ordinals right now are just insane.
They're, they're surpassing the block rewards on Bitcoin, which is the situation that everybody wanted Bitcoin to be in.
So it's proving that if you can get utility and usage on, on Bitcoin, you can actually surpass the security budget.
And that sort of makes a different conversation go away, but it, it, it forces this other conversation, which I think is a very interesting one.
And I think it's a, it seems to me a fight that Gene has wanted for a long time.
He's really wanted to push the Bitcoin community to say, you need to have a stronger smart contract language, or you need to look at, you know, something that looks like exactly like Bitcoin, but has a Turing or smart contract language.
Cause then you can do these interesting things.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
But you, you are right.
There's, there's certainly enough money floating around there, enough Bitcoin floating around in that community.
But I think, you know, I don't think there's a chance they'll ever look outside of Bitcoin.
You know, what, what was the point?
The whole idea of ordinals was that it's on Bitcoin and it's on the chain and that's it.
You can't do anything about it.
There's nothing really overly special about it.
Other than you can say, you've got the kudos of having an image on Bitcoin.
That's really the only positive that I can see.
Well, I think you say they might not ever look outside of Bitcoin.
But my philosophy is if you build it and it provides enough value, everybody has a price.
So instead of arguing back and forth, like that's kind of, I've just, for me, I'm just trying to go in and build the most valuable application that I can possibly think of.
And if I succeed, people will come to it without me having to say anything because they recognize that this has value to me.
If I don't succeed, then they're going to stick with whatever they're doing and that's okay.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people that were even using Ethereum and Chia has fallen into this same situation, right?
A lot of us used IPFS.
And I don't think a lot of people understood that IPFS was leveraging Filecoin.
So, you know, in what ways did Chia sort of tie, hitch their wagon to, you know, Filecoin in a certain way?
It's like it was sort of not because anybody said, oh, Filecoin is the greatest thing.
It's just because, hey, I need a way to have, you know, data which is decentralized.
And, oh, IPFS is the way to do it.
Didn't even really look at the underlying tech or how it worked.
I think you've got the exact right approach.
You build a piece of technology that finds utility and people will use it and they might not even ask how it works.
They just care that it does work.
Yeah, I was once asked, I said, developer, developer, why would I choose IPFS over your data layer solutions?
And my answer was, look, I actually don't know very much about IPFS.
And I don't want to sit here and debate against for something that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I'm just going to build.
And when it reaches a point that it becomes important to you, hopefully one day you use it.
But I'm not going to sit here and like belittle IPFS on like half information.
And I think that's what 90% of crypto influencers do is they just debate on information they only have a half understanding of to try to make their project look the best.
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, you've only got to jump in an ordinal space to see that, to be perfectly frank.
You know, there's the reason why it's so successful is because it's on chain.
And then you have Elon Musk sort of having a brief conversation with Joe Rogan, sort of saying these things aren't on chain, etc.
And the whole world goes crazy.
You know, they either don't realize or don't care.
But, you know, the point of ordinals was it's all on chain and there's nothing anybody can do about it.
It'll be here forever.
And I think, you know, if they if they was to opt into using something like data layer, then they sort of defeated the object of what they were trying to do.
They were trying to make these things, you know, sort of prove these things that can never, ever be destroyed or lost.
You know, there's no reason if they went the route where they could back up their data on Chia's data layer, then they might as well just use IPFS or Arweave or whatever.
So I don't know.
It's a difficult one.
It's a difficult one.
So there is a case for like data layer versus IPFS.
I think at some point, Michael, you're going to be asked that more persistently.
I'm probably going to have to really explain the difference.
I think that what you're building in its full form, right, when Voltron sort of fully, you know, like emerges as the big robot, there will be a strong case for, you know, this being a much more robust way to store data in a decentralized fashion.
Because in IPFS sort of it's pretty non-obvious how pinning data is going to ultimately lead towards long-term data durability unless you're one of the people who's providing, you know, the replica that's needed or somehow making this work.
And when I looked at IPFS, I was like, gosh, I don't really understand how this is going to work in the long term because, like, why in the hell would I keep doing this?
Like, what is the point of me replicating data I don't care about and I have no interest in, especially if it's a CSAM or, you know, other types of stuff that's, you know, very undesirable?
I would love if you could maybe write in, like, maybe a medium work or somehow, like, get that information out, at least from my understanding.
See, my biggest thing is, like, I'm putting all my energy into being an expert at data layer.
I do not have the time to be an expert at IPFS in order to debate one or the other.
And I hate when I talk to other people that they're fighting tooth and nail and they don't even know anything about your side.
So I don't want to be that guy who's trying to, like, argue to my gums bleed that data layer is the most, like, the absolute best solution when I'm not an expert in IPFS.
So, yeah, I am a little bit worried about when I start to get put in those corners more and more.
Like, I'm really just trying to build and then hopefully one day everyone sees the value instead of me having to convince them.
Ah, you're doing it right. Keep building the tech. It's the right way to do it.
I'm not trying to say you need to do X and here's the next move you need to do.
I think building the tech and, you know, solving the problems you see and trying to make it truly decentralized with an incentive mechanism, like, I mean, that to me is the – you're on the right path.
Keep going. You know, don't take a minute to try to convince everybody this is better than IPFS
because eventually the marketplace will win out when people start to understand that, you know, building something on top of, you know, this technology is stronger than anything else.
And that'll be when it actually is stronger and the only way it's going to get there is it, you know, it keeps getting built out.
Yeah, and the best tech doesn't always win. There's a human element to it.
But, you know, this is just something that I feel like I can make a difference in, so I'm just putting on my effort into trying to make a difference here.
Yeah, I think you're right. That's the unfortunate reality is sometimes the best tech doesn't win.
And that's kind of how I see Chia Inc. operating right now.
It's sort of like build it and prove it and, you know, make it work and prove that it's better and then sort of maybe build on top of that afterwards, you know.
And I think, you know, most people in this, in the sort of Chia ecosystem understand that Chia Inc. doesn't go around in spaces talking about how great Chia is as a blockchain.
But I think there's certainly an element that has to happen as well, you know, whether it's Chia or whether it's from the data layer stuff that you're building.
And I think there's going to come a point where, you know, the best technology is there, but you do need people to shout and scream about it at the same time as well, which is crap because, you know, I'm certainly no good at doing that.
I couldn't go into spaces and start screaming and shouting about things.
Well, that's marketing, right?
We got to have that.
I think at some point you just have to, like, be willing to put money and effort into driving awareness, right?
That I think is the definition of marketing.
And at some point it has to happen.
Like, I don't know that you can just organically keep building the right tech and hoping that people are going to eventually show up.
Like, you have to go out there and make noise about it.
That is important.
Like, marketing is a thing.
It does exist.
It's real.
It doesn't need to be done.
I think you're breaking up there, Grant.
Or was it just for me?
Well, I think it was breaking up for me too, but I think I was trying to – I kind of got the gist of what he was saying.
And that's where I'm kind of really relying on the Chia community.
Like, my quote-unquote marketing is only geared towards you guys to give you guys an update.
And I'm hoping that you guys build cool stuff.
And then other people ask you, hey, how did you build such cool stuff?
You'd be like, I did it on Datalave.
I think you're back, Grant.
Go on, try again.
Or maybe not.
Maybe not.
Maybe he's disappeared.
Or maybe I have.
One of the two.
Are you still there, Michael?
I can hear you.
I completely lost Grant.
I can still hear you.
Can you still hear me, Monkey?
Yeah.
Got you.
Yeah, no, really interesting.
Really interesting.
I think, you know, this sort of – I mean, I would love a world where these sort of conversation in spaces are the priority rather than some other nonsense, you know, where the loudest shout wins type conversations.
But I guess that's just the nature of the beast on Twitter, isn't it?
It's not always the case all over the place.
So, yeah.
It'll be interesting to see where we come.
I mean, I think what you're doing, Michael, is fantastic.
And making it as simple as possible really helps, you know, people like myself understand it as well.
And I think once we get it, you know, we've got a certain amount of pull and a certain amount of, I guess, sort of notoriety, whatever I'm talking about.
But we certainly go and speak about things, and I think that really helps.
So, yeah, just keep going.
That's all I say.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how it all pans out and how we can start using the sort of the decentralized internet is going to blow people's minds.
On top of the decentralized internet infrastructure, I also have a ton of visual data layer tools that I want to build.
I want to get Wallet Connect working with data layer.
I was actually just talking with somebody who said they were going to help me out with that.
I don't know if they want me to say who it is or not, so I'll just hold off on that until they make it public themselves.
But we have a plan to have Wallet Connect work with data layer, which means when we mount spas to data layer and we run them from data layer, we can interact with our own node.
I have a whole design on how to build an MVP Chia-based browser where you can both surf the regular internet and the Chia protocol to load stuff directly from data layer.
I actually figure out a tech stack to make a proof of concept, not a full custom browser, but the proof of concept should work and maybe funding could come out from there for a full Chromium build.
That would be super cool.
I have other visual tools that build on top of the CLI stuff that I provided you where you can manage your data layer in a desktop application kind of thing.
There's a lot that I want to build, and I'm frustrated that I only have an hour or two a day to work on it.
So what I had done is I actually just sold my Ethereum validators the other day to hire a developer full-time who I'm going to kind of take on as a quote-unquote apprentice and train him to be an expert in data layer.
And he's going to help build these tools full-time.
We got an office down the street so we can work together and train, and I'm hoping that we're going to have these tools that make it easier for everyone else.
I hope the velocity of getting stuff released is going to increase tenfold.
But, you know, he's starting with me January 1st.
I'm very excited about what's going to happen.
That's why between everything we've talked about, 2024 is going to be a huge year for data layer.
That's fantastic news.
Awesome.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
I mean, we can see more being pumped out from the Taylor & Co. company.
I love it.
That's awesome.
I see we've got Cookies, a.k.a. Orange Gooey, jumped in the space as well.
Yeah, I just figured that out.
We should get him up and talk tokenomics.
Oh, he's going to come up.
He's coming up.
Let's let him loose with foods and see if we can figure out a way to chat about how we, you know, create some sort of, I don't know.
I mean, let's recap on it slightly.
So, how are you, Cookies?
I mean, Mr. Gimmy, how are you?
I'm doing fantastic.
How's everyone doing?
A lot of awesome faces up here.
GM, GM.
Yeah, good, man.
Good.
We were talking earlier.
You must have heard the call from Foods.
But, yeah, we were talking about how you can essentially incentivize or have a token that incentivizes people to participate in, you know, mirroring data, but also give it some sort of worth.
And your name came up as the expert on tokenomics being in the HEX community.
There's a friendly word like tokenomics.
I bet foods use a slightly different variation.
Something like that.
Something like that.
No, I think it was all above board.
But, yeah, I mean, the idea that sort of Michael's got is, you know, to sort of incentivize people to mirror people's data is to reward them.
And sort of the grants made a case that really probably it should be XCH that should be the sort of overarching sort of rewarding coin as such.
But we're trying to figure out if there's a way that some form of cat token can do the job just as well.
I mean, what's your thoughts on that?
Yeah, so that's really interesting.
There's definitely something to be said about liquidity.
So when I like hearing XCH should probably be the thing that gets paid, it better be at least an option.
And because if this shit doesn't work with the layer one coin, it's not going to work with a shit coin duct taped onto it.
And so because you should always be able to swap that cat for the XCH, right?
So what I would say is what we have found in the Tang Gang to be highly successful is a patronage model where we align the incentives for creators, producers, developers, and their patrons to create kind of a symbiotic reflexivity circular economy, right?
This is what the Bitcoin bros think that they're dominating, but it actually turns out a couple of us on a vapor chain EVM have a slightly better model with way less transaction fees.
We have a yield farm that pumps out a token every 10 seconds when a new block is signed on the EVM, and we use that token on a social layer.
We establish that if you want access to our community's artwork or developmental protocols or various experiences, you can get discounted access to those benefits if you pay in the form of this yield farm token.
And so to make an analogy as to obviously what we're talking about here with data layer, if you had a cat in addition to the workings of data layer, the subscribers mirroring the data, if you had an alternative use beyond this accounting token for knowing who needs to pay whom to keep the data hosted, you could also use that same currency to purchase many of the digital artifacts that are relevant for the discussion.
And so it probably does make sense to try to create that model out of an organic grassroots kind of a silo, if you will, because you're going to require some inter-cooperation between those who have to host the data, those who create the data that is going to inevitably be desired to be hosted, and those who need to access it.
You need to find a way to make it worth all their time, and so what you do is, you understand this can all be done with Chia, and you find the path to accomplish that payment route, and then you find a way to create the tokenomics of a discount by either increasing the cost of XCH, and then setting the standard bare minimum price in the new cat, or you have to find a way to cut costs and be able to do it cheaper with the cat, which is unlikely.
So that's all we do is we just set a premium in public currencies, and then we price what we would have used as a public pricing, and it's now a discount because you use our yield token.
I do want to mention one thing that I think might excite a lot of people here that hasn't been brought up, and I'm definitely not against the idea of a cat token,
but if we kind of normalize that XCH is the way to power the decentralized internet, and we make the decentralized internet really valued by a critical threshold of people,
and in order to incentivize, you have to buy XCH in order to make the decentralized internet work, that is potentially a huge amount of up pressure on the XCH price, because we now have a reason to buy and spend XCH beyond just...
Yeah, but here's the thing, but here's where that game theory stops, is if anyone can do it competitively cheaper with the cat token.
But I don't think they can, Michael, that's why I'm saying it has to be possible with the layer one coin,
because it doesn't get any cheaper when you have to invent something out of thin air to make it become a part of the formula.
So, it needs to be capable, and another, to your point, another reason that you want to really keep the focus on the XCH, communities will always spin up their own shit coins to focus on,
but that will lead to tribalism, that will lead to a loss of cohesive messaging, the agnostic capabilities of messaging in just the layer one coin, sure, it's still tribal, right?
We've got the Chia versus Bitcoin or Chia versus ETH kind of stuff going on, but you're servicing a way larger base market.
If it can be done cheaper with a cat, someone will do it, and that will become the standard model, because people will seek lower costs.
And the only reason that they won't go for the least cost provider, all other things considered,
is because there will be some benefit to holders through the social layer that can't be enforced with software.
And it'll only be because these people offer some cool feeling or some unique assets that you can get access to,
and you have to use their proprietary currency to do it.
Well, it's also the way that this whole incentive idea is going to be architected.
There's no reason why you can't do both at the same time, and people have the individual choice to choose.
Imagine if Dexy had a marketplace page that said,
there is currently an offer for 10XCH split across all its mirrors, and there's an offer for CookieCoin,
100,000 of them spread across all mirrors.
People will pick and choose what they value.
Some people will choose whatever has the highest intrinsic value that they're going to get at that time.
But, you know, and that will fluctuate whether they prefer XCH or CookieCoin,
just depending on, you know, what the instantaneous value is when they're choosing which data to mirror.
Definitely.
And that's where you can start.
Oh, hold on.
It is interesting.
You know, it probably leans right back into what you started off with, Michael,
that, you know, individual projects incentivize with whatever they can or want to themselves,
rather than some sort of centralized.
I think Filecoin was sort of mentioned, weren't it?
One sort of central Filecoin that's the incentive for everybody probably isn't a good idea.
It's probably best that each individual project does their each individual thing to, yeah,
to sort of keep that, I guess, to keep that market as well, that sort of open market.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I imagine that coming out of the bat, like XCH has proven a lot of people will start,
will choose XCH as what they're going to pay out.
But, you know, if you have a project that has value to your token,
there's nothing stopping that project from offering their own assets.
And I just imagine a whole, like, plethora of options in different currencies and tokens
that you can choose from as a node operator.
I imagine, like, you know, I didn't, earlier in the conversation, like, I was thinking, like,
it would be so, it would be so cool if there's an automatic algorithm.
That would look at all the offers out there and depending on the instantaneous value of everything that's out there,
you know, you automatically mirror and serve the highest, you know, the highest value that you can.
And as you, you know, because incentives get spread thinner and thinner as more mirrors are put up,
you know, that instantaneous value of what's the most profitable will change by the minute.
So you can have these algorithms built into the decentralized internet gateway software that will monitor this,
you know, and once a day reshuffle what you're actually serving in order to get the most profit.
And what happens is you end up with, you know, the whole system will equalize, you know,
in a way that gets everybody's stuff out there.
Monkey, you're actually in a position to try this experiment first since you have your own token.
You could start paying for the replication of MonkeyZoo data layer NFT images.
You could try it. I think, I think you're in a position uniquely situated to because you're already giving your token redemptive value.
So it's like, well, I could be infusion through or I could be doing this other thing.
But now you're paying for data storage as a centralized project.
And that means a different economic thing for you because you now have to give it redemptive value.
How much am I willing as a centralized NFT project willing to pay to have my art continuously replicated?
Absolutely. And I brought up MonkeyZoo a lot in my tweets because it was that system that inspired this incentive idea.
So I don't mean to, I didn't mean to sound like I was like talking on your behalf, but I was, but you were the one that inspired me.
So whenever I try to explain it, I'm like, oh, well, think of this hypothetical on MonkeyZoo.
He could do X, Y, and Z because that's where this idea came from was what you put together.
Yeah. And yeah. And I've said to you, Michael, that I'm a hundred percent in, you know, once you've, once you've got it all up and running,
I'll, I'll, I'll be the guinea pig. I'm happy to do that.
I think, I think what the interesting point is and what Grant just said there is what, what do you value that data at?
You know, do I, do I value it at how many tokens?
Because, because there is, believe it or not, some sort of system behind all of this, you know,
depending on, on sort of rarity of items and et cetera, et cetera, you know, does, does become, you know,
just, just sort of mirroring some data.
Does it become more valuable than some of the MonkeyZoo NFTs?
You know, I don't know.
It's a, it's difficult.
That's something that I'm certainly going to have to look into and work out, you know,
how that, how that works from, from a sort of community standpoint as well.
So it's interesting.
In my, in my opinion, NFTs on data layer, as someone who's a public, a creator and a publisher,
NFTs that have more mirrors are more valuable than NFTs that have one mirror,
because that shows that the data is not going to just evaporate one day.
And for you,
That's a very sophisticated take, Michael.
I'm not sure that's going to play out.
And, well, and the other, the other way that I, I, I, I, I think about it is, you know, as a, as a creator,
you have incentive to make your NFTs as valuable as possible, because that increases your royalties rate.
I can even imagine a circular feedback route route to where some of the royalties are split off to also help fund some of the mirrors.
Like, that's what we're going to do in the tank gang.
And, uh, so, so you can, you can build a positive feedback system that just kind of like works autonomously in the background that, that, that enforces like the, uh, permanence of your data in its value.
I think, I think, um, sorry cookies, but I think, I think short term and maybe even long term, that's probably, that's probably right.
I think, um, you know, do people care enough about that?
Probably not.
But if you, if you can, um, sort of exploit that and you have it on, you know, displaying it somewhere, display it on the website, tweet about it, that you are the, you know, the most mirrored project on blah, blah, blah.
I think that, that comes with, uh, a certain amount of social value as well.
So I think there is, there is definitely something to that.
And I think that will probably cause some sort of, um, almost fee war, uh, you know, amongst data layer, uh, you know, people using data layer for, for NFT projects for such, you know, if you can say, you know, my project is, you know, by far the most, most hosted or the most mirrored project.
Then it does, it does give it, give it some sort of gravitas and value.
So, but go on cookies.
Well, I was just going to speak to, I love all of this stuff.
So, you know, we have an interesting group similar to monkey zoo, right?
It's nice when your community is an actual community and you can, you can coordinate like it's not just a total free for all of barbarism.
Um, and so with, with this kind of, you know, circular feedback loop, that was one of the initial things on day one of the Tang Gang, I established a simple patronage model to help people who were less familiar with sort of the battlefield of crypto.
To help begin insulating value in our, in our shit coin versus the rest of the market.
And the patronage model is very simple.
You make objectively dank art protocols or immersive experiences, and you give them away to the Tang Gang for free.
The Tang Gang will amplify objectively dank works so that creators are able to reach a broader market than they can alone.
Receiving amplified sales on the merits of their work, take a small portion of the amplified revenue and market by our shit coin.
So that all the plebs who don't have the money to buy JPEGs all day, who don't have a million dollars to buy shit coins with, they are seeing a share buyback, if you will, from real high provenance creators within the community.
And so we keep it within the community.
And what you realize is there's this spectrum.
Some people are diehard Tang Gang for life, right?
They're going to be diehard monkey zoo for life.
Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have people who are a little less emotionally involved, but they might still be willing to click some buttons to make some money, right?
So you'll always have this weird threshold of people who are value add versus value extract and to what degrees they can impact the project.
And so we created a patronage model that immediately aligns us in a way that creates that circular economy.
With the propagation of hosting data, we already have artists that have sales, that have floor prices, that have volume, and have done royalties.
Now, we actually, you know, we're cool with royalties like monkey zoo.
I'm a little more fucking savage.
I tell people in the Tang Gang to set the royalties to 33%.
Mana, who does this incredible AR and VR work, she sets them to 33%.
She's done more in secondary sales than most people have done in their entire collections, okay?
Now, imagine if she were to scrape 5% of that and feed it into being able to host her work.
And now you have this high value work that's guaranteed digital permanence.
And rather than it just being like, well, I cut the check and now the Chia, you know, lords of storage will protect my shit.
It's like, no, now the Tang Gang running evergreen farming nodes are going to be accessing data layer and propagating that asset for you.
And so now the people that are patronizing you also have a means of getting back into the economy by being those who help maintain the digital permanence, right?
So we're already pretty socially aligned for a mission like this.
That's so cool.
I had a quick thought, so I came on stage.
Hopefully you can hear me clearly because I'm talking from my laptop.
Yeah.
So is the idea to, like, what I was wondering from user's perspective, so somebody getting an NFT, say, from Monkey Zoo, wouldn't there be an option to say, do you want this mirrored, like, for permanence, like, the level of mirroring you want?
And then, like, is the cost can be transferred to the user or is it from the artist's pocket, like, initially?
Is what I'm wondering.
I have an answer for that.
I have an answer for that.
So if you put away everything that we've been talking about, I believe as the NFT owner, you have an incentive to be the steward of the art.
You know, you have incentive to make sure that that art remains, you know, up and available and doesn't disappear one day.
So I would argue that as someone who owns the art, you should be a mirror of it yourself.
And I imagine, I brought this up to CNI a couple of times, maybe it'll happen one day.
I really don't know if it's even in the backlog.
But I imagine that once we reach a critical threshold of NFTs on data layer, it'll be built into the wallets that if you have, you know, a store ID and a key in the metadata of the, you know, in the metadata, it will actually, or sorry, not the metadata, the, in the URLs that point to it.
So you will be able to load the NFT directly from your local machines data layer.
And I imagine them putting a little toggle on the NFT page or any other wallet that might be doing this, where it says, become a mirror.
And you just toggle it, and now you're contributing to the permanence of that data.
So I think from a user perspective, they're, you know, the person who owns it, I think their responsibility would be contributing, contributing as, as one of, one of the mirrors for that.
So check this out, you are a nerd, bro, you are a nerd, and that makes sense to you.
That shit is not going to naturally happen because nobody knows how this shit works and nobody wants to have to host someone else's shit.
You are going to need a Monkey Zoo community or a Tang Gang community to be able to tell these motherfuckers,
you are going to host the assets that you will inevitably also be competing with to buy,
and you are going to be the easy button so that every single creator and every single person interested in the industry knows there's already a gang of motherfuckers that want to host this shit so you don't got to.
Absolutely. There needs to be that. There definitely needs to be that.
I think it's a whole spectrum. Like, on top of that, there should be an option for you to take ownership of it.
Now, whether, and it should be easy, it's just clicking a switch.
To that point, what I was, what my initial thought was in, you know, having it in the wallet itself,
but then the user should have the option to, like, you know, like, like one of the attributes, right?
Like a rarity attributes, like this could be an attribute, like, hey, my NFT, I just, at the point of purchase, is what I'm saying,
is, like, at the point of sale, that option, like, even in offer files, like some way to say, like, hey, do you want to mirror this?
Mirroring means this will remain distributed, like it'll be more, you know, remain persistent throughout more nodes.
This is what it is. Do you want to do it for an extra fee or something, like, while you're making that purchase?
And that could be, you know, sent to, for maintaining the mirroring.
Like, I do get your side of things, like, if I am a creator and I want to have that mirroring option as a toggle, that's one thing.
But then I'm seeing purely from person who's purchasing an NFT, and then they want that to persist, like, for, for, for, like, we have, there has to be a way to communicate to them.
Hey, this is, this is almost, like, an attribute, or, like, this is, like, like, my NFT is less mirror than yours.
Like, it's some, some sort of comparison, or this particular NFT is more mirror than the, I don't know, somebody else's NFT.
You know what I mean?
Like, I imagine that you might be able to build a way, something that's like the royalty system to automatically pick a, you know, to automatically split off a small amount and, and push it out to all the mirrors as a way for the users to also help incentivize.
That would be kind of a cool idea.
Like, I'm not sure, I don't know how to, I personally don't know how to achieve that with, I think it would have to be built into the NFT one standard.
But, but, but, hypothetically, impossible.
Are you, are you, are you imagining, like, a level of mirroring, or will there be a one default, like, will the cost differ, like, if there are 100 mirrors compared to if there are, like, 10 mirrors?
Like, you know, that's where I'm kind of, like, not clear, like, it's not clear to me, will the cost, there will be a variable cost to it, right?
Or, um.
Well, I, the way, there's a lot of different ways you can go about it.
I think it would be very expensive to set a set price per mirror.
You could, if you had enough funds.
Because, but I think what likely happens is you have a, a budget, incentive budget, and you're willing, like, let's say you're willing to pay out $100 a month to all the mirrors.
Um, you know, if you have two mirrors that are on the network, then they each get $50.
But if you have, you know, four mirrors on the network, they each get $25.
And then as the mirrors go up, it'll spread, get spread thinner and thinner.
Eventually, it'll be too thin that no one, not another mirror, you know, mirrors might drop off or, or not mirror at all.
In that case, it, it gets less thin.
It'll eventually equalize at a point where it's worth it for both the person providing incentive and worth it for the people that are, that are being the node.
Uh, so that's, that's the way I envision it is that you would set, you would create a, a set price and it's split across however number of mirrors there are at that time.
And how would it ensure that the, the mirroring that I paid for is, is maintained?
Like, uh, like, will it, um, you know what I mean?
Like it's, you can query that on the blockchain.
I see.
Okay.
Now what you need to do, there, there are, there are, just because the blockchain says that there's a mirror available, uh, you would still have to actually check that because someone can, you can put any, any URL as a mirror.
You can put Google.com as a mirror.
It doesn't mean that Google.com is a mirror.
So, uh, you know, whoever's providing incentives would need software that kind of verifies before they send it out that this is a valid mirror.
Um, so, so, so, so like, like if I have my NFT, I mean, it should just imagining in the wallet, it should show like, oh, currently it has four active mirrors and you want to go into details.
These are the mirrors, like click on it.
These are the details of those.
Well, there's a, there's a, there's a get mirrors RPC.
You just provide the, the, uh, the single, the, the single, the store ID and, uh, and you can get a list of the mirrors.
also uh the my data layer dot storage i publish all that information uh for any for the stores
that my system knows about uh and i'm also thinking about other ways uh to have it published
in a decentralized way i imagine space scan would be a great uh place uh for that kind of data to
be published um yeah i'm imagining a scenario where somebody paid for the mirrors but they it's uh
it's not uh reflective like it there is there is some issue that the mirrors um i mean if you do it
part of mirror basis maybe that's not what you're thinking but uh can there be a situation where
the mirroring drops but yet they have paid for such a service uh um you're doing it the
through the anonymous way uh what basically what's going to happen is that you're pet you're putting
out incentive to mirror and whoever's mirroring at that time is going to collect it and if you
and if there's a track record that the incentives are going to keep coming uh you will have you
know you will have people that that will become nodes to to become mirrors and uh in order to
collect those incentives if you're looking for a one-to-one uh you should be looking at data layer
as a service type services uh right now data layer storage uh is one of those where you uh you know
the service allows you to to mirror 10 for free uh but beyond 10 uh you know for 10 bucks a month you
can go online you can go into data layer storage and put in the store that you want and uh and then
you hit go and then you're that's a paid mirror that you paid one-to-one for um you you like it's
provable like it's it you can you you you pay the money or or use the free tier and you can
immediately clear the block query the blockchain and you see that your mirror is there from that
service uh so there there's different different ways to go about it i think uh there will be a lot
of data layer as a service type uh services out there where you can have a direct control over um
you know one-to-one i paid this money i get one mirror or you know for example uh but the incentive
program is more of for everybody that's mirroring i'm i'm putting out this incentive and then the
market will work out how many mirrors you get you know based off of that price so there's a lot of
different options you can go for uh the incentive program is decentralized where the data layer as a
service uh method is more of a centralized approach you actually go to a provider and say i'm buying
a mirror from you i think it i mean it leans into what cookies was saying there's you know there's
an argument thanks mike you could um you could maybe have uh you know a percentage of the royalties
going going into the pot that is then distributed to your to your mirrors so you know that's quite
interesting thing because then you're then you're incentivizing with xeh as well um hmm yeah
i do need to wrap up and uh my battery's getting low so before i go i just want to make sure there's
no last minute questions
no i don't think so i appreciate your time uh michael for coming on and um it's always a pleasure to chat
with you about this sort of stuff because it's uh it's it's genius stuff so yeah i appreciate your
time yeah thanks so much uh i'll uh you know ping me again and uh we can talk about some more
cool cool will do will do lucas you got your hand up buddy i was gonna say and if i can catch you
before you go michael just a general question i had for the room earlier he's gone ha ha ha funny
um that's okay um uh it's we'll catch him soon enough you know a question going back to the the
the dynamics of the token structure is um i would be very interested and and somebody probably knows
the the dialogue concerning the choice for uh the the i the ipo um and and i wonder how having an ipo
with the the main channel chain developer will affect chia um as as opposed to others so um that was
that was what i was wondering
yeah um
it's not something i could answer that's for sure
we don't we don't have these problems on our vapor chain lucas you got to start you got to start
going down into the dirty dirty swamps of evms because when you're down there you don't have to
ask these silly questions about ipos and developers all that stuff is nonsense well and i thought i thought
it was brilliant that you said somebody had a 33 percent uh royalty rate because because in reality
what the what the chains we've seen so far run on is transaction rates and in reality artists should
be looking at 33 50 50 70 percent um but when you have on like like true on ramps of taxes
or or or inspection of fiat like that ipo i think it's going to flip the narrative and i think that
cheetah uh foresaw that with with just brilliance and i i've very much wondered if they were forced
into it or if they like marched there to the top of the hill
i think the world of money is a big and scary place and i don't want to know the answers to those
questions this is why we play music right cookie
yeah i'm gonna have to wrap it up as well soon guys so i appreciate everybody for coming out and
listening and uh and joining the convo i think um i am going to change the times going forwards to like
the well it's 3 p.m for me i don't know what time that is across the world but um you know it gives me
a bit more time in the evening with the with the good lady so i'll be doing that from now on in the
future um before i go i just want to wrap it up and say uh appreciate everybody that sent
out some uh nfts or tokens to the to the sort of the uh the charity thing we're doing uh over
christmas it's really appreciated i think we've got like almost 200 nfts that have come into that um
that that wallet now so uh the we're going to put a cut off of wednesday for that so if anybody
wants to uh add anything into there um you know obviously we give people a shout out on twitter
and things like that when we when we start doing these auctions um so wednesday's the deadline so it
gives us a few days to to sort of get things together and organize we're going to start on the
21st all the way through to new year's day uh and we're going to be doing auctions on mint garden uh
acevale's kindly let us use mint garden and his tools for free so um we'll be we'll be utilizing that
and we'll also be doing some in our discord as well so um yeah and uh and if anyone's not seen it
we're gonna we're sort of we're we're kind of bit closer to home we're gonna we're gonna donate most
of it to um to space scan and to prop them up and allow them to continue because obviously it's a it's
a difficult world for space scanning and a new blockchain um with difficulty you know bringing
in revenue so we're certainly gonna gonna use them and then we're um there's another small charity
as well uh that we're going to donate to as well so yeah looking forward to that it's um going to
be a lot easier than we had it last year last year everything was pretty much done by hand because
obviously the nature of the the nature of uh where chia was a year ago um but this year is going to be a
little bit easier we can we can sort of pre-set up all these auctions and things so um yeah looking
forward to that uh lucas go on monkey can i do some shilling before before you close the room go for it
go for it okay well thank you feel free to tell me now but um you know morning show with grant and
aliff we uh we don't necessarily talk about chia but we often talk about chia and other things um
uh and i think we're going to have a really good episode on schrodinger's chat on thursday
aliff hasn't uh aliff popped in the room earlier and dm me that it was going to be a zinger so maybe
keep an eye out for it um and uh also uh the the drag team has some four chain cookies out with
a concept behind it that i think we're going to to keep on trotting out and and maybe have like
something to do with some of the guests that we bring on um but check out the four chain cookies i i
won't get into them but uh there's there's some fun stuff behind that and um thanks monkey i really
like the new time and uh i'll i'll see you i look forward to it next week cool i appreciate appreciate
you coming up lucas and uh obviously all the other guys coming up and uh um i saw i saw a tweet uh from
pennywise uh he wants to learn more about the tang gang so i think that's one for you cookies if you
haven't followed you guys keep them
there he is he's just popped in i just saw him down the bottom there but if you haven't followed
if you haven't followed pennywise give him a follow he's just done uh he went on a meme spree
yesterday with gene um myself all thoughts so uh he'll be more than welcoming the tang gang i'm sure
no doubt no doubt we love the memes they love me just before you rug the space and i'm gonna bounce
too but i wanted to say shout out monkey zoo and the space i i saw the space i was laying in bed and i
was just so dead to the world i was like ah monkey's on stage with craig michael i gotta get up there and
talk to him so i fucking like ripped the blankets off and tried to get my day started but we have big
plans over in the tang gang for getting involved in chia data layer uh and i'll be bringing some of my
shit coinery uh theories to uh to the chia fam so we're looking forward to it man we're getting
ready to make the world a smaller place awesome yeah i i think uh i think what you guys are doing
over there and i think we should have a space together because um some of the stuff you were
talking about there sort of the social aspect of tokens and nft projects are really interesting and
you know if you're if you're a founder of something like like an nft project or whatever that that side
of it is just as important as the artwork and all that side of stuff so yeah definitely we'll we'll get
something together and um and i don't think i can go wrong really but um i suspect in the future there
may be a uh uh some tang gang oddments coming into the monkeys oh so uh yeah that's uh that's maybe
been on the cards for a little while but um yeah and i think last thing before i go um steve's down
there mr mr steve step you know part of the chia community um he's he's developed uh a uh a pretty
cool little oddment that we can we can use inside the fusion zoos and uh hopefully next weekend it could
be dropped out into the wild so um just uh keep your eyes peeled for that before we that's before
we kick off all the charity stuff over christmas so uh yeah i appreciate you all coming out cheers
cookies uh lucas foods uh grant obviously michael coming up um uh space scan and uh build uh yeah
awesome stuff and uh yeah we'll do it all again next week thanks for coming out guys
