Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
🌱 CHIA FOR DUMMIES | +C.O.C ft MonkeyZoo & Josh Painter 🌱
Recorded: Dec. 5, 2025 Duration: 2:23:51Space Recording
Short Summary
The Community of Communities is launching a new Web3 initiative focused on collaboration and creativity, highlighting partnerships and growth opportunities in the crypto space. Discussions on technical challenges and user engagement trends reflect the evolving landscape of blockchain technology.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Revolution Friday Saturdays, voices amplify, together we're strong, unity's our guide, thy revolution, words like heavy artillery, bacon sandwich co-host, v. mental artillery, late in the week, X marks our territory, sport. Thank you. Truth ain't disguised Friday, Saturday's voices amplify Together we're strong
Today's our guy
Thy revolution words like heavy artillery
Bacon sandwich co-hosts
Feeding mental artillery
Late in the week
Acts marks our territory
Stories unfold
Shaking our narrative
No allegory
Community of communities
We rise
Big spaces buzzing
Truth ain't disguised.
Friday, Saturdays, voices amplify.
Together we're strong, unity's our guide.
Fridays live with discussion, minds intertwined.
Saturdays replay, thoughts age like fine wine.
From dark to dawn, follow the growth line.
In these spaces, innovation's the shrine.
Mental health and spotlight, no need for stage fright. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Community of Communities,
a groundbreaking Web3 movement that celebrates the diverse tapestry of human creativity, innovation, and collaboration.
In a world characterized by unprecedented connectivity and decentralization,
the community of communities stands as a testament to the power of collective ingenuity.
Together, we'll discover the limitless possibilities of the Web3 movement
and the remarkable individuals and communities who are shaping the future.
Stay tuned for a showcase of inspiration,
collaboration, and boundless creativity
as we dive deep into the heart
of the community of communities.
Welcome aboard.
I now bring you our host, Thy Revolution.
Good afternoon, happy Friday.
Welcome to the community of communities web free space tonight is a special cheer
Space it's cheer for dummies featuring monkey zoo and Josh
Hainter super excited about tonight for some reason it's not letting anyone comment or share the space so I don't know what to do about that
I don't know whether we want to stop the space and start again
I don't know if anyone's had this problem before or whether it'll rectify itself a little later into the space but
uh we'll quickly dive into speaking to a monkey zoo first and just have a little chat and see
what what's what uh monkey zoo happy friday so how are we hey mickey yeah i'm good i'm good i'm good
uh yeah i don't know what's going on with spaces this week. It's been a bit of an issue all over, I think.
Spaces in general have been a bit of a problem.
But, yeah, no, all good. All good here.
I'm looking forward to diving in a little bit deeper
and going back to kind of, I remember the early days of spaces or chia spaces.
They were quite exciting to to be
involved with and kind of learning and uh picking picking sort of the the technology to bits as such
but but but i'm i'm very much um you know i'm not i'm not a developer you know i'm a dangerous
developer i can i can vibe code a little bit but um you know josh is up here who's a very
experienced coder and there's there's a lot of experienced
coders within within the chia ecosystem but um it's kind of getting that that message across that
uh you know what this what this technology is capable of and why it's different to
to probably many other blockchains but yeah i'm looking forward to it i'm looking forward to it
so yeah we'll see we'll see where it takes us like i say you can you can bring up a few other people you know people that maybe want
to come up and ask questions or um just general other kind of cheer folk to come up and join in
the conversation and we'll uh we'll take it way back and go and go back in time a little bit to
uh to kind of the uh earlier spaces we used to do because i think i think some of the things we do
now is we kind of brush over all the all the stuff that we talked about in the past and we're
we're kind of three or four years down the line now and we we often forget that that people coming
in probably don't know a great you know i guess a great deal of all the all the quite basic stuff
that we we learned back in the back of two well three or four years ago now so yeah looking forward to it mickey let's go yeah no thank you man yeah we're
definitely looking forward to it as well it's going to be awesome and definitely looking forward
to you know really back and learning more and seeing how you know people can learn about cheering
what different ways in which they can utilize it as well so we're super excited
about that so i appreciate you guys coming and being willing to help educate us on on you know
how the blockchain works how people build on the chain and the difference between this chain and
another change as well which is what i'm excited about as well so uh no definitely grateful that
you're happy for people to come up and ask questions and stuff as well because that would
be awesome but yeah i mean i know that spaces are always being quite funny but it's a bit of a tough one that that people can't
drop a comment or or share the space at the moment hopefully it'll uh sort yourself out at some point
never done that before so uh yep first time for everything but uh tech problems is nothing new to
us or spaces i'm sure so uh yeah no thank you I appreciate that. I'll just say hello as well to Josh Painter as well.
Josh, happy Friday, sir. Thank you for joining us.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm really happy to join and have some, as Tim said, some throwback to the early technical days discussion.
That was always a fun, fun time, special place in my heart, talking to Bram and all the early adopters in the community back in the day.
So, yeah, really enjoyed those talks back then.
And I hope we can kind of recreate that today for some newcomers or people who are just getting into Chia or just want to learn more.
I see a lot of friendly faces in the audience and some new people as well,
so that's always good.
Welcome.
Yeah, thank you, Josh.
Appreciate that.
But yeah, there is a few people down there,
so thank you everyone for joining
and it's good to see friendly faces
and new faces as well.
We're going to have a great space tonight
talking about all things GEO Network.
So yeah, I mean, as I was saying,
I know that people can't comment or share the space but it should be good either way we will uh just keep
having to push on i do see graham is on the stage so we'll definitely say a quick hello to graham
before we dive in happy friday graham how are we sir i'm all good mate i'm all good i i oh do you
know what it brings it does bring back memories because i memories because I've got a book from July 2021.
I've maintained it all the way through.
And, you know, back in, you know, September, October, November, the bull run,
I was in all these coins and I held some cheer.
And it just brings back memories because a lot of those, not so much blockchain tokens, but, you know, IPOs and things like that, they've all just finished and they've all just gone.
So I'm quite excited to have a listen.
The fact they're still going and they're building and they're doing stuff.
I think Levy Pro or Levy Pro was talking about the other day.
So, yeah, I'm interested. I'd only come up.
I just wanted to ask you a quick question, if I may,
and then I'll probably go back to the listener and have a listen.
But, you know, Hill is your colleague or friend, isn't he?
Yeah, he's been compromised.
Ah, well, that makes sense then.
Because when someone messaged me and says, GM, GM, Graham,
is it all right if I ask you a quick question?
And then I go back and go, you can always ask a question.
And he's talking about me and some other middle-aged dads
building an old-school RPG game.
That's right.
Do you want to be a community manager?
It comes with a decent salary, right?
And I said, well, I haven't got the time.
And I do everything for free anyway.
Like, good luck on the game.
And then he says, would you be interested in taking a look at our project?
I'll give you two of our NFTs and you become a long-term holder.
And I thought, that's unlike Hill. And it's unlike anybody who knows me to approach me like that.
And I thought, I'll talk to you on the next cfc space about
it and and i didn't get an answer back so uh i'm glad i checked that and you know what that's a
lesson not just to me but to everyone it doesn't i checked out his profile and it looked legit i
checked but something wasn't right about it and i saw a post today which really worried me where someone got done i think it was like
13 million dollars and he was approached by a scammer and instead of just ignoring him he said
he he interacted with the scammer because he was curious about how much security the guy
had or didn't have and he clicked a link and got drained.
And I'm like, that's someone with loads and loads of money.
So if it sounds a bit dodgy or it sounds like it's from someone,
even if you know them, that they wouldn't say,
it's best off to double check, triple check, don't interact at all.
So I'm really pleased you said
what you said because it's yeah it's it's didn't seem like i had the same at the same interaction
exactly the same cool it's terrifying no thank you for asking that question because i was going
to mention it in the space because it seems like a few accounts have been hit and it's it's it's
terrifying isn't it you know because it's i'm i'm honestly i'm so proud of the community as well because i made a
post about it and i didn't i don't know if everyone saw it it was talked about in the um
in our community channel on here and on telegram and a few people messaged me saying i got a message
from this person um and i think you know you guys know who
they are but something's just off and i was so glad that people had reached out to somebody else
first before interacting because had they have not done that like what you just did you know it could
it could have been it could have been worse or you know well done for for double checking it's
it's mad how often it happens well the algorithm on x is is very strange at the moment um you know
i'm getting so much um spam uh on the actual feed by the people i'm actually i've clicked on the
following button not the for you so i should just be seeing who i follow and it's it's very weird at the moment um but the my my um my base is that every single person in the world is a scammer
unless until they're not and i think that's the only way of dealing with it uh everything's a
scam everything uh until it's proven it's not and i think that's a little bit overballed but i think that's the right approach
so um now i'm pleased people are sharing it and it's good oh yeah go on i'm sorry i i was gonna
say that's that's my same policy with ai nowadays i just assume everything is ai until it's proven
that it's not like we used to think oh is that ai or not my answer is yes it's all ai we have to
just just assume that from the beginning at this point yeah prove you're real exactly that actually goes back to the not bot stuff well
maybe we'll talk more about that later um but the the ken griggs and data layer guy that is doing
the not bot stuff today that proves you're human that's really cool stuff so anyway just no it is
enough i've got i think it's billions network are trying to do it a little bit and some of the others. And I think that's really good.
But with the X and that, I've got 2FA on.
And, you know, if I get an email you've logged on from a different space or a different user, I get notified.
But luckily, touch wood, I haven't had that.
But it's going to get worse and worse and worse so uh
sharing this sort of thing is really important but anyway i just wanted to say hello uh i'm gonna
have a listen to chia i'll go back go back to a listener i think and have a have a good old
listen tonight but appreciate it yeah no worries thank you graham appreciate that and thank you
for highlighting it as well so yeah please check, please check twice, speak to other people,
check on other socials and always be suspicious of everyone,
even if they're friends with other people.
Because as you can see from this incident,
they lean heavily on the fact that that's the case,
that people are friends and that you will entertain it more because of that.
So thank you for highlighting that.
And, you know, well done to everyone that's managed to kind of see through it.
Because, you know, I was only fortunate that I noticed something was off when
I was speaking to the same person about one thing and they messaged something that was almost the
opposite around the same time so when I asked them if this was them they said no and I think that was
how they was able to realize somebody else had access to their account and they was able to
try and notify people on other platforms and stuff so yeah very scary space to
be in at times and uh you know well done everyone for noticing so yeah thank you graham and uh
we'll dive back into the uh the chia stuff now so we can start learning about this amazing blockchain
and all the amazing people on it so uh yeah i mean i don't know if you have anything specific uh tim you
want to dive into first i don't want to give a little bit of a breakdown of what cheer is or if
you've got anything in mind already then uh yeah we're good to just dive straight in yeah sure
funnily enough i got that um same message as well uh from from hilly and i don't know the guy
really at all i saw him up in your space once he popped up I think when
Brab and Gene were on and maybe talked for a couple of minutes so yeah I got the same thing
and then and what I did was I didn't really respond I just sort of said no I'm not interested
but I did like take some of the links and chuck them into AI and said you know have a look at
these what do you think and that pretty much figured out it was a scam and and the way it did it was it kind of looked
at what the website was was was um you know portraying and said well this is pretty much
a copy of this game the website's pretty much a copy of this uh you know the likelihood of this
being a scam is pretty high so you know there's there's
pros and cons to ai and uh not that i would have gone any further anywhere and started clicking on
links and things like that but you know it's just interested i was just interested to see what ai
thought of it and whether it could spot it was a scam and and it and to be fair it did it kind of
said you know steer well clear so um yeah it's a it's it's kind of a uh it can be
a useful tool as well i suppose for these sort of things so but i was interested i was interested to
to kind of figure out the route it went to to look into it because on the face of it it looked
reasonably genuine you know they've made a bit of an effort to make a website and stuff like that
i presume so um yeah no it's cool it's cool but um yeah going going kind of back to cheer i guess uh the idea
of this space was really to take it back to the basics and i guess um some of the kind of early
conversations you know myself and josh and and uh clyde c clide wallace and uh grant and um you know all these guys that were
kind of early on into the ecosystem trying to figure things out before the days of cats before
the days of nfts you know it was pretty much just um it was pretty much just just farming it and
and trying to learn out learn what the differences are between between what the tier blockchain was compared to say
you know ethereum or bitcoin or or those types of blockchains so i think that was the early
conversations we were having um kind about why why it's different and why the potential is there
for it to do many other things and i think um i think my early experiences were kind of
understanding the blockchain level stuff but then they started talking about this coin set model
blockchain um and that was quite confusing to me early days and actually when it clicked was
listening to spaces and and josh made some videos um the happy seedlings videos
is that right josh is that the name of the the videos that you were yep that's right in fact i'm
looking them up right now so i can put them up in the header in case people haven't yeah so i'll
post that here in a second but yeah yeah that's right yeah they were they're fantastic in kind
of explaining um you know what a coin set model blockchain is and um um you know
if we take it right back to the basics and kind of explain how you know you have an account model
blockchain like ethereum um you have kind of this utxo model type uh chain which is kind of bitcoin
um and we've got these now this coin set type model blockchain um and then you
kind of dig a little bit deeper underneath the hood to to kind of figure out you know what this
you know how it works how does this blockchain work and how does it run and why is it considered
decentralized decentralized and what's what's kind of important is decentralization important is um speed important you know is the security important what's what's the important part about
this chain or any blockchain really um and i think um i think we're seeing now there's there's this
kind of massive battle for speed on a blockchain and i i kind of in the in the corner that speed isn't something
really blockchain needs to solve you know we we can already do speed with with you know our fiat
banking system you know that's pretty much instantaneous maybe the settlement's not quite
quite instantaneous but you know from our account to account we can do things in seconds so speed
speed doesn't really concern me but the kind of decentralized part of it and the security part of
it is is the bit that that our legacy system doesn't solve and um and what chia was kind of
hitting on was you know the kind of same thinking as me where um you know this kind of
decentralization is important you know if you think back to the early days of bitcoin for
instance where you know people were able to mine on their cpus on their on their pcs you know one
cpu kind of one vote um on this kind of decentralized network um and you know that's long
since gone because of kind of the uh um the sort of power hungry nature and and i guess greed in a
way um and chia came out with this kind of different approach where it wasn't necessarily
burning all this power all the time it was gonna you know do this work once and then kind of different approach where it wasn't necessarily burning all this power all the time
it was gonna you know do this work once and then kind of store these things on hard drives and that
kind of interested me from a from i guess a nerdy point of view so um so prior to prior to kind of
chia mainnet launching i was i was mining um ethereum with some gpu rigs
and decided to kind of switch that over to uh hard drives you know i sold my gpus bought some
hard drives and um and started plotting and playing along playing along with that so uh
that's kind of my my beginning journey but what i soon realized in those early spaces were that i started to learn a little bit more about kind of how you know how the bitcoin blockchain works
you know is essentially and we use the lottery ticket kind of analogy quite a quite a bit so
um you know that essentially you're kind of using now these ASIC miners to churn out all these lottery tickets over and over again.
And when a block is, you know, formed, somebody wins with one of their lottery tickets, they form the block.
And, you know, everyone chucks away all that power, all that kind of compute is all chucked away.
And then everyone starts again and um and i think the
i think the the sort of revelation was that you could do all that um but not throw all those lottery
tickets away stick around a hard drive jobs are good and um and i think we we kind of dug a lot
deeper into that and we started to look along the lines of like if you've got these plots which is
essentially your lottery ticket what happens if one of them's won is that is that plot then
void uh you know we started digging in deeper to that so um yeah so i think those those early
conversations were were kind of just looking around the basics about how you know how these
lottery tickets are made on on bitcoin uh how
they're made on chia and what the difference is and then and then you start looking at ethereum
going to proof of stake and you you start realizing that there's there's more on top of this there's
um you know these size of these pools and how are these pools run are they run on aws you know bitcoin these giant pools um and the issue being that
the pool makes the blocks rather than the individual miner or the so so we it all started
to come together certainly in my head from these early days that um this was something a little
bit different to everything else that was being done at the time um you know when you've got um
sort of two or three giant pools that are pooling all the kind of um the hash rate on on bitcoin
it only takes you know two of those to be compromised or in some cases maybe one of
them to be compromised to start getting towards that that attack vector where you know 49 or 51 percent attack on a chain and you can start to
to manipulate the transaction so um it was it was definitely an interesting time to talk about
uh the the kind of fundamentals that i guess i guess a lot of people and probably myself at the time didn't really fully understand.
And then I think once we got to that stage where we kind of understood how the chain kind of operates
and why it's different to Bitcoin, why it's kind of different to Ethereum and Solana, etc.
And then it was kind of, OK, so that's different that way but then we
go on to you know what is a coin set people kept saying everything's a coin
and that's where we're kind of Josh Josh with these videos which he's just kind
of posted at the top there kind of explained it in such a way that was easy
to easy to understand I don't know Josh you might want to touch on kind of what the CoinSet stuff is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah, so I posted those, or at least the closest tweet I could find that actually posted that,
because you can't just post a link, of course.
So that tweet has the playlist in it.
There were three videos.
They're about 20 minutes each.
So about an hour of content totaled, but broken up into three different sections and um it starts off with the coin set model so yeah if
if we want to just kind of briefly break that down real quick because i i do think besides the the
lottery ticket example like you mentioned um and understanding how chia is different from bitcoin
in proof of work versus proof of space time that's one of the basic uh differences that that's kind of the first one of the first things you learn.
And then the second thing, in my opinion, is the coin set model or what we call the coin set model.
So. Without getting too technical, there's really in this this kind of this is what I go over in the first video.
There's two models to think about when you when you think about storing money somehow or
keeping track of money. The account model is the one we're all usually familiar
with because that's like our bank account and so that's kind of how I
explain it in the video is the what we call the account model is a single
account somewhere a centralized organization or entity keeps track of
your money for you in this account. And it's really just,
you know, line items on a ledger. It's transactions in and out. At the end of the day,
you add all those up. The balance at the end is how much money you hopefully still have in that
account, right? And we're not really keeping track of the individual dollars that you deposit,
the bills that you deposit, the coins that you deposit. Like, you know, if you go and deposit
a $20 bill at your bank account, you know, they don't write down, you know, Josh Painter
on a post-it note and put it on the $20 bill and go put it in their vault and save it away
for me forever, right? Obviously, that's what we call fungibility. So that $20 bill is fungible
with any other $20 bill. So when I deposit that $20 bill, my bank can just record in
their system that I have $20 more in my account.
And then they can just go throw that in the pile with all the other $20 bills or maybe even send it out, give it right back to the next guy in line behind me that wants to withdraw $20, right?
So the $20 in the account model, the bill is separate.
The currency itself, the physical representation of the currency, is separate from your actual account balance.
It's almost like two sources of truth.
There's the physical currency that you can hold in your hand and look at and feel and have a serial number on even for the bills.
But then there's this kind of virtual transaction ledger that the bank holds for you that says,
OK, this is how we keep track of
how much money we owe you if you ever come back and want your money back, right? So they're not
keeping track of every individual bill is the point. The coin set model does do that. So the
coin set model, on the other hand, is a much more granular system for tracking money. It literally,
if you think about, you know, every bill has a serial number on it, or at least U.S. currency has, you know, a serial number that uniquely identifies that bill.
And, you know, it's not really used in the banking system as much. I mean, it's, you know,
mostly used like in movies to track down bad guys who stole the bank money or whatever.
But it does have that unique identifier on it. So you can imagine, if you imagined that the bank did actually keep track of every single bill that you deposited,
and they put that bill in your little envelope that goes in the vault,
and now you can get back the exact $20 bill that you deposited when you deposited it a year ago if you ever want to withdraw it.
You know, that's obviously a very silly system for a bank that's dealing with physical money.
They just keep track of the account balance and the transactions.
They don't keep track of the physical currency that you deposit because it's all fungible.
On the blockchain, Bitcoin uses this.
In Bitcoin, they call it the UTXO model.
In Chia, it's a little bit more smart coins, we call them.
So there's a little more you can do with we call them so it's a little there's
a little more you can do with it so we call it the coin set model but in in the blockchain world
and especially utxo chains like bitcoin and chia um you do keep track of every literal coin ever
and you can easily split those coins into more coins into into children coins, and we keep track of that too, of course.
So when you have a balance in your wallet, the total number of, for example, Chia in your wallet isn't just a number in a ledger somewhere that is almost like an IOU. It is actually,
your wallet is going out and finding your coins that you own and adding up all those coins and then presenting you the total account balance.
So the blockchain is keeping track of literally every specific, if you think of them in physical terms, these coins that you're trading, we are keeping track of every single coin over time.
We are splitting it into multiple child coins
to get to make change.
We are combining those change coins
into one bigger coin
so that we don't have to pay transaction fees
on more complex transactions.
So there's more granularity.
With that comes a bit more responsibility as well.
You need to understand
this, at least today. Obviously, the hope is someday you won't have to even worry about this
kind of thing. But today, in a coin set model-based blockchain, you kind of need to have in the back
of your mind this concept of, I actually own coins on the blockchain and those coins, those are each are each worth
X amount of Chia or X amount of, you know, any other of the tokens we have out there.
Space bucks, for example. So you may have a million space bucks, but that million space
bucks may be broken into a hundred different coins, all with different values. You can then
take any one of those coins and split them into
further coins and and you know trade them etc um but we'll talk about offer files probably here
probably that's one of the next things that's great about the chia blockchain but once we get
into offer files which also in my in my video series that's the one of the next videos i believe
this stuff started starts to really make sense why it was done this way, why there's
advantages and benefits to doing it this way. And the fact that there's no two sources of truth.
In the account model, like we said, there's the physical representation of your currency,
which is the dollar bills that you actually own or hold in your hand. And then there's the ledger,
which we hope and we audit and we hope, you know, there's laws around making sure that those things are always the same.
But as we know, the problem with this world is there's lots of scammers and those two things don't always match and there's problems there.
So the coin set model solves that by saying there's a single source of truth.
We're going to keep track of every single coin, no matter what.
That's your coin. You sign it with your private key.
No one else can get to that coin, no matter what, that's your coin, you sign it with your private key, no one else can get to that coin, no matter what, you know, if the contract, or the account model is compromised,
they would still have to know your individual passwords for all of your coins, which are broken
up into, you know, based on your private key and derivation index and all kinds of fun stuff that we can get into more later. But yeah, the point is this is what self-custody is all about. You don't own
some transactions on a ledger in someone else's system. You actually own the physical coins in
your wallet. No one else can do anything with those coins unless you sign off on that transaction.
So that's kind of the very, I guess, very high
level differences between what we call the account model. And by the way, Ethereum and that blockchain,
anything that runs on Ethereum, is using that account model. That's one of the big differences
as well. The contracts in Ethereum are basically a centralized contract that are keeping track of
what ultimately is a big list of accounts, people's accounts, and how much money they are owed, right? It's the banking IOU system
just in blockchain form. And that, of course, comes with all the same problems as a centralized
entity because now it's a centralized contract. So the person who deployed the contract can
rug it or change the parameters somehow or do something if they haven't fully, you know, revoked their ownership of the contract.
So there's a lot of security issues with the account model that are just naturally don't even exist in the coin set model.
Because, again, there's no central place to compromise.
You can't compromise, you know, the Spacebucks token itself and just rug everybody.
You would have to actually know the private keys of every single owner of Spacebucks and loop through that and go get all of those coins out there on the blockchain and somehow hack everybody's account simultaneously to affect the entire Spacebucks economy, rather than just kind of a single point of failure in the contract like Ethereum, EVM based world.
than just kind of a single point of failure in the contract like ethereum evm based world so
anyway that i've probably rambled enough at this point but that's that's the high level basics of
of coin set versus account and um and definitely the happy seedling videos
more of this i think with with nice little stick drawings and i'm a i'm a i'm a programmer not an
artist just just remember that yeah i don't i don't think anyone was uh in fact i thought the art was pretty good josh i
think you're uh i think you're putting yourself down but i think i think the takeaway there is
is kind of the the coin set model is more like cash cash in your hand coins dollars uh pounds
in our country but uh whereas kind of ethereum is much more like your credit card you know you're just changing changing your balance when you when you make a transaction um and that that kind of
that kind of interested me in such a way that you know this potentially is um is more like our kind
of kind of money system that we know now you know where you know and that's kind of how transactions work as well
which is which is quite confusing when you first start using cheer because you you may have say
say you had a balance of 10 xch in your wallet now that balance of 10 xch could be 10 individual
coins worth 1 xch each or it could be one coin worth 10xch uh and so this is kind of the same principle
on bitcoin as well so um you know if you went to buy something an nft that costs 1xch with that 10xch
coin and it was one coin worth 10xch what happens in your wallet is that whole 10 XCH disappears and then you wait for your change, just as if you was in a shop store.
So you kind of spend that 10 XCH, the one XCH coin.
What happens is then that that 10 XCH coin is split.
The one XCH goes to the person who's, you know, purchasing, purchasing that NFT.
And you get your one coin that comes back that is now
valued at 9x the h value so it is kind of confusing in a way but it's kind of the monetary
system that we've all been using for the last you know 500 years so so it isn't that drastically
different i think i think we just um we're so used to you, this kind of account model now where, you know, essentially you just
put your debit or your credit card down there and you see that balance come off your, you know,
that transaction comes off your total balance and you're kind of none the wiser. You know,
there's no change involved. But, you know, when you physically walk into a shop and, you know,
give them a $10 uh for something that costs one
dollar you you know you wait for your change and it comes back so um there is some subtle
differences there but i think i think watching those um happy seedling videos uh explains it
really well i think there was was there four in the series that you did josh i can't quite remember
uh there were three.
So the CoinSet model, I think, is the first one.
The second one, I think, is around the fees.
And the third one may be offer files,
if I remember correctly.
Or I may have switched the order of those. But yeah.
So yeah, so offer files are kind of the next big concept.
I don't know if we want to jump to that at this point already.
But that's kind of the next big concept. I don't know if we want to jump to that at this point already, but that's kind of the next big concept to learn in Chia
and something that's very novel to the Chia blockchain
that, you know, so far we've talked about the coin set model
and how it's proof of work versus proof of space and time
is subtly different, but we use kind of the same model
as Bitcoin for the blockchain itself,
as far as UTXOs and coins instead of
accounts. But the offer file is something that's absolutely unique for the Chia blockchain,
not really possible in the EVM world. And it is somewhat possible in the Bitcoin world if they
implemented some of the bits that would get them there with the scripting. But because Bitcoin is not as
programmable as Chia, I don't think that's even possible today without some additional
features in the Bitcoin world. So an offer file is basically a pre-signed transaction that says
anybody can take this coin. So let's say that I want to trade. So Spacebox. Spacebox is kind of the meme currency or the meme token in Chia. It was one of the earliest cats, as we call them, Chia asset tokens, which are just, you know, kind of third party or anybody can mint new coins.
the movie space books is one of the early,
I think it was actually created by one of the developers
of the Chia blockchain just as kind of a test
and getting this new feature out there.
But you can, let's say that we wanna do an offer file.
So let's say that I wanna give you one XCH, one Chia,
and I want in return 15,000 space books.
So what I can do is I can actually,
let's say that in my wallet,
I already have a coin that's worth exactly one chia.
So that coin is ready to go.
I can actually create what's called an offer file, which is literally what it sounds like.
It's a text-based file.
If you open it up, you can open it up in Notepad.
It looks like a bunch of alphanumeric characters, a bunch of gibberish.
But what it is is actually a pre-signed transaction from me.
So I create an offer file that says, I have this one XCH coin in my wallet.
And anybody can spend that coin as long as they follow these rules.
The rules are that when you spend that coin, you also have to spend 15,000 space bucks to my address.
And if you do those two things, can spend this coin and by spend i mean
basically transfer it to your wallet right so you're going to spend my one xch coin but the
only way you can spend my one xch coin and transfer it to yourself is if you also send me
15 000 space bucks at the exact same in the exact same block and that completes the other side of
the offer file and now i've basically pre-authorized
anybody to take this 1xch right out of my wallet if they want. But the only rule is they also have
to send me X amount of something else in the exact same block. And of course, that's provable
mathematically by the blockchain itself. So this is an atomic swap, as we call it,
a transaction that happens all at once in a single block.
And there's no way that you can spend my 1xch out of my wallet without at the same time spending 15,000 space bucks to my wallet.
So that's the very basic concept of an offer file.
But the reason we talk about the coin set model first is exactly like Tim mentioned, is that you have these coins in your wallet.
So let's say that I wanted the same transaction,
the same offer file, one XCH for 15,000 space bucks.
But let's say I only have a 10 XCH coin in my wallet currently.
So I have one coin in my wallet.
Instead of being worth one XCH, it's worth 10 XCH.
But I still only want to offer one XCH for that 15,000 space bucks.
So I can do that.
I can create an offer file and I can actually offer that one XCH for that 15,000 space bucks. So I can do that. I can create an offer file,
and I can actually offer that 10 XCH coin for 15,000.
But now there's another rule.
The other rule says, okay,
you can take this 10 XCH coin if you want,
but in addition to spending me
15,000 space bucks to my address in that block,
you also have to send me 9 XCH.
That makes up the difference. So I'm have to send me 9xch, right? And that makes up the difference.
So I'm going to send you 10xch,
you're going to send me back 9xch exchange
plus the 15,000 space bucks that I wanted in the first place.
And that's kind of how this,
that's how you start thinking about these,
this coin set model is thinking in those terms.
The problem with this is that that 10xch coin
is now locked up, as we say,
in your wallet because you've pre-signed, you've basically said anybody can spend this 10XCH coin
as long as they give me back 15,000 space bucks and 9XCH. Well, you've now committed that 10XCH
to that offer file. You can't spend that 10XCH., you're gonna put that offer file out there on the internet,
it may be days before someone accepts it, right?
In the meantime, that 10xch is locked up
in your wallet, so to speak,
you can't spend it without canceling that offer file
that you've created,
because you've already kind of preauthorized that coin,
even though it's not,
even though you really only wanna to spend one XCH total,
you've locked up the entire 10 XCH coin in this offer file, right? So the fix to that,
the easy workaround is before you create the offer file, send yourself some change.
So literally send yourself one XCH and that's going to take your 10 XCH coin and send you and create two coins from that you're going to get back a
9xch coin and a 1xch coin in your wallet now create the offer file for 1xch it will obviously
use the 1xch coin you've only locked up that 1xch coin your other 9xch is free and clear for you to
spend immediately somewhere else or create other offer files from it so that's why it's so important
to kind of understand this coin set model and these offer files, because one of the very first things that people don't
quite get or can be frustrating with our files is you don't know that, you know, you have 100 XCH
in your account, but that may be all in one coin. And you create a single offer file for, you know,
half an XCH for something, and all of a sudden you can't spend any of your XCH because you've
locked up that entire 100 XCH coin waiting for change.
So that's one of the early frustrations is realizing that, oh, before I create the offer
file, I need to give myself some change.
It's almost like going to the arcade and you need to break your dollars to get some quarters
before you can actually go play the games, right?
It's kind of like giving yourself a few more denominations of different coins to work with.
So these are the kind of things you learn, you kind of get used to once you start really
understanding the coin set model and how your wallet works.
So these are just kind of some of the basic concepts around that.
Yeah, yeah, I would give that exact analogy.
You know, it's like going to buy a pack of chewing gum with a $100 bill.
It's like you can do it, but, you know, you'd probably break that bill down a bit first.
But it's also like, you know, if you was to pay for that, you know, bit of chewing gum or whatever for, I don't know, 50 cents or whatever with a hundred
dollar bill, but it was going to take, say, a day for that transaction to happen. You know,
you would definitely break it down and give the guy a dollar rather than that hundred dollar bill
because you want that, you want that change in your pocket. So it's very much like, like real
money. It's, you know, you really have to think of it like real money. And that does, you know,
that is a bit confusing, especially when people first start um and certainly when they start playing with nfts
you know they'll make an nft or they'll have an nft in their wallet um and they kind of put an
offer in for something uh and and their balance suddenly disappears and it's like well you know
where's my where's my 50xh gone and it's it's not gone it's just kind of locked into this puzzle somewhere
uh you know what we what we call a puzzle inside of a coin so um it can be quite confusing so it's
quite important to it's almost like you have to kind of manage your coins in a way as well so
um i don't know if you guys got any questions kind of so far on on what we're covering which
kind of covered some of the basics of, you know,
what the different types of chains are and what coin set is.
And, you know, we can dive a bit further into, you know,
why it's kind of almost like programmable money as well, I think.
So any questions from yourselves?
Like, I'm sure you must have a question.
You've always got a question
all right so offer files are they are they stackable like can you stack sort of multiple of them
into one offer sort of thing you can definitely um in a single offer file, you can request multiple different assets.
So, for example, you could say, I'll pay 1XCH, but I want back 15,000 space bucks, like I said, but I also want this other NFT.
Or I also want 15,000 HOA tokens.
So, you can actually specify multiple on both sides.
So, you can say, I'm offering 1XCH and I'm offering some space bucks if you give me that NFT.
So first of all, the offer file itself is not just a one for one.
You can definitely have multiple assets on either side of the offer that you're creating or accepting.
But secondly, there is something called combining offers.
So you can take, because of the magic of BLS signatures, which are non-interactive for combination, you can actually take multiple offer files that have been signed by completely different people and combine those into a single offer file that then is basically the amalgamation of those two things together.
of those two things together.
And again, everything will still work out just fine.
You know, it's the two different people
have pre-authorized a spend
as long as you follow these rules.
So you're just basically smashing those two things,
those two rules together,
those two sets of rules together.
And now as long as you complete all the rules,
you can do the whole offer file.
So yes, absolutely, you can combine.
That's not something that I think
is available out of the box in the wallet. Maybe through the whole offer file. So yes, absolutely, you can combine. That's not something that I think is available
out of the box in the wallet.
Maybe through the API.
I think the RPC API has some functions around that.
And then I know some of the third-party stuff,
some of our websites do some interesting things around that too,
like TibetSwap has some interesting combining logic
going on behind the scenes for offers and stuff like that.
But I think actually Dexi does it too, right?
There are combined offers on Dexy where you can highlight multiple offers at once and
then say combine into one and just do a single transaction that basically does all of them
at once.
Yeah, that's what I was going to kind of say.
For an example on Dexy, which is kind of like a Dex you know that if I wanted to buy say 10,000 space bucks
and there's 10 people in this room that's put an offer up for 1,000 space bucks at various
different XTH prices I can combine all of those one XTH price oh sorry those those 1,000 kind of
space bucks put them into that there's 10 different offer files there, which can be combined into one.
And I get one total kind of XEH price, which I can then I can then spend.
And all of those offer files will then transact at once.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, that's crazy. Cool. That's crazy cool that's really cool the other thing is they're they're not quite there
yet but they've talked about even some more advanced uh offer file features where for example
um nfts are one of the most requested features after everybody got these cool offer files was
uh like for for floor sweeping and stuff so i I would like to offer, you know, one XCH for any
of this, any NFT from this collection. Anybody, you know, if you want to sell it to me, here's
the floor price. I'll give it, you know, whatever it is, I don't care. So you can't really do that
today. You do have to specify the exact NFT you want in exchange, but a future offer file that
it's certainly technically possible with the GIA blockchain, a future offer file format or standard
might include things like, you know, like exactly that.
I'll take one NFT from this collection and I don't care which one it is, but it has to be from this collection and, you know, signed by this original creator, DID, etc., etc.
But I'll pay, you know, 1xch for that, for any of them.
So there's some advanced stuff we can do technologically, but is just not available in UIs quite yet.
There's still a lot of building needs to happen.
Yeah, I think that kind of leads on to the topic of cats and NFTs as well.
Because those early days of Chia, like I said said earlier on it was a case of um you know
here's the blockchain here's how it works uh here's how kind of offer files work um and then quite
soon into the um uh kind of after mainnet um the the first the first chia asset tokens cats appeared and there was some there was some subtle differences
with kind of those mainly mainly they operated exactly the same as xch same same principle same
coin concept model but there was less decimal places which i believe they're going to fix quite soon but um but essentially if you think
think back and and one of the one of the big sayings on cheer is that everything is a coin
um you know everything's a coin an nft is a coin uh xch is a coin a cat token's a coin
uh and you're basically splitting these coins into just you know smaller coins uh you know parent
child uh type things which you've probably heard of parent child um from probably ordinals and
bitcoin and things like that but it's it's the same kind of principle you have you know a coin
is born uh you know whether that coin is born uh when it's farmed for instance you know the block winner uh for instance wins one xc8 that
coin is then um rewarded out and you have that kind of birth of one coin uh the moment somebody
um then spends that coin or splits it down it's then got this these child coins that come off
the back of that so to speak so um but the the introduction of cats
were were um were quite interested like you said like josh said um one of the first ones was um
space bucks um and then it kind of grew from there and what you're doing essentially there
is you're you're spending uh xeh spending that that kind of um the token there to create you know x amount of a uh a cheer asset
token obviously on um uh erc20 you would have on on ethereum so it's just a kind of a token a meme
token a gaming token whatever whatever you you want to create and And I think that those early days of that was fairly interesting as well,
was kind of people understanding how these cat tokens are created,
because depending on how, you know, if you want to create, say, I don't know,
a million tokens, it would cost, off the top of my head i can't remember
um but x amount of xch so i can't remember josh do you know off the top of your head
i do it's um uh i just happen to know because i think one xch will you can convert one xch
into one billion of a new cat token that you want to mint.
So, yeah, it's one XCH per billion.
I think it's one Mojo.
I'm sorry.
So, by the way, a Mojo is like the very smallest denomination of XCH,
kind of like a Satoshi in the Bitcoin world.
It's like 0.001, right?
Like it's the last, it's the smallest thing,
smallest value you can create is a mojo.
So one cat, so like one space book is actually 1,000 mojos behind the scenes on the blockchain.
So all the tokens themselves are actually backed by real XEH mojos, but one space box is worth 1,000 mojos.
Now, 1,000 mojos is worth, like, you know, it is a tiny amount because it's,
I think it's, like, what, 12 decimal places or 15 decimal places or something crazy.
So it's, like, you know, it's probably, like, about, it's just, like,
one atom and a penny is worth or something.
It's a tiny, tiny amount of value, right?
But that 1,000 mojos per one
of any cat gives you three decimal places of divisibility for cats. So space bucks,
for example, the smallest denomination of a space buck or any chia cat for now is 0.001,
because that 0.001 actually represents the smallest mojo denomination, the smallest
denomination of XCH that that token is backed by.
Technically speaking, that's really just a standard that was kind of implemented when
they created the cat standard.
It is absolutely possible to create cats with different denominations or
different values, more decimal places. The problem is that no current wallet on the market would be
able to read those cats, or they may even give you what look like wrong balances, because everything
right now assumes that one token equals 1,000 mojos, just as kind of a community standard
or a de facto standard, I guess, from the beginning.
So how is it a benefit?
Like how...
How what? Sorry?
How is it a benefit to it?
A benefit? How do you mean like...
Yeah, what's the benefit of it kind of functioning like that?
Oh, well, so the idea originally with it was that every token actually was backed by a real
coin on the chain because as as tim mentioned earlier one of the bram's uh bram cohen the
inventor of chia one of his favorite sayings is everything's a coin so no matter what we're
talking about in chia everything at its base is a smart coin it's a programmable coin um a a cat token is no more than a normal xch uh coin
with a little bit of extra stuff on it that says hey i'm actually a space bucks i'm i it's like
you know you're dressing them up you put a costume on the XCH mojo and we call it space bucks, but it's
cryptographically provable and all that, that that mojo can, is now a space bucks and it can no
longer be anything else. That's called minting, right? You mint XCH into something else, very
much like the US mint would take copper originally anyway, and mint that into a penny, right?
There's also the concept of melting,
which is going the other way. So you could theoretically take a cat, a lot of them,
most of them don't support this today, but theoretically it's possible technologically anyway. You can take a cat at 1SVX and theoretically you could melt it back to its XCH under its undercurrent or its under value, its actual point, you know, one mojo.
So you could take one SPX and theoretically, if it supported it, melt it back into its pure copper, so to speak.
And now you have that original 0.001, you know, mojo back in your wallet and you can do something else with it, create another cat with it, perhaps.
So the idea is, is that everything is tracked on the blockchain by using the coin so you'll frequently see that mojo being
represented because it's the smallest denomination so for example even NFTs
NFTs are represented on the GIA blockchain as coins it's like anything
else every NFT is actually a one is actually one mojo. So when you mint a new NFT, you have to actually
take one mojo out of your wallet. And that one mojo now represents that NFT on the chain.
And you will never get it back. That mojo is now that NFT. They're called singletons.
So you'll see that concept represented throughout the Chia blockchain,
especially in the smart coins. A lot of coins have that smallest denomination value simply because
everything's a coin. So no matter what we're trying to represent, we have to start with a coin.
The smallest possible coin we can make is one mojo. So we'll start with that to represent
something and now build from that, if that makes sense.
and now build from that, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it's relatively easy to mint a CAT token.
Like Josh said there, you know, a billion kind of CAT tokens is 1XCH.
The issue comes that there is a value, an actual kind of monetary value to creating a token as well.
So, you know, if you wanted to create, you know, 10 trillion tokens, for instance, you start looking at hundreds of XCH that you would have to convert those kind of mojos into cat tokens.
If that kind of makes sense anyway, whether that's a good thing or not that
that's i i don't know i don't know but um what i would say is that you know the kind of price xeh
has been and is is right now um is probably the time to mint some tokens in my humble opinion
um you know i i think um if if one xch is now probably what five or six dollars uh you know
you can you can create a pretty useful token with that so um but we'll we'll see we'll see where
that goes that all depends on um on on the price of things doesn't it but if you could imagine
in the future here at a thousand dollars uh per xch you're then having to commit $1,000 worth of XCH to mint a token.
The other big benefit of everything is a coin model is that we only have to get ownership and the self-custody thing right in one case, if you think about it.
We have to make absolutely sure that the only person who can spend mojos is
you. That's a very base level, right? Because everything is a mojo, technically. So as long
as we get right spending and securing mojos, then everything else is built on top of that.
Contrast that with like the EVM model where everything, every coin, every NFT, everything
is its own separate little contract. And now we have to worry about securing and making sure that there's no holes in every
different contract out there for every different ad class and every different thing. Whereas because
on the Chia blockchain, everything is a coin, we just have to get that right once. Everything,
we absolutely can secure mojos and now everything else is mojos at their base. So we absolutely can
cure mojos and now everything else is mojos at their base.
So we absolutely can assure self-custody at that level,
at that low level coin set model.
Before we do any other additional complexity on top of that,
we can at least secure self-custody for sure with mojos,
because that's the basic use case of the blockchain.
So it's a generalization thing, right?
By generalizing all of these problems down to a
very simple, single coin, we can now start, almost like Lego blocks, you can start building
features on top of that. But we start with a very secure base that nothing can break through
unless they break the entire system somehow, right? Like, you can't just compromise one single
little contract somewhere just because a developer forgot to do something. We protect the entire framework with the cryptographic math and everything that's been proven over in the Bitcoin world and everything for so long now.
We start from that point and then start building on top of it.
So that's kind of the benefit, I think, in everything's a coin.
Yeah, I think what was kind of highlighted early on or made a lot of sense to me early on was that kind of Bram Cohen was looking at this.
And, you know, if you obviously you guys and probably a lot of the people in the audience know who Bram Cohen is.
people in the audience know who bram cohen is and and i think if you give somebody like bram cohen
the hindsight of you know 15 years of bitcoin at the time when he was looking at this um
you know and x amount of years with the theater the sort of account model um you give them kind
of this hindsight that um these are the good things these are the bad things and I think I think one of the key things that Bram initially looked at was you know how to how to make Bitcoin probably more more
useful and obviously how to make Bitcoin more energy efficient you know if you speak to if
speak to somebody who's obviously a Bitcoin maxi, then all that power is a good thing.
That's a good thing that they're helping the infrastructure or they're eating their swimming pool.
I don't know whatever excuse they want to kind of make up.
But, you know, in reality, to burn all that power isn't a great thing if you can do it a better way.
it a better way so um i think having that hindsight gave them the opportunity to to really
look at the good and the bad things within the whole of the crypto space uh and and they came
up with these kind of solutions of um you know this is this is the model and you often hear gene
kind of talk about the story where they were around a flip board or whatever talking about um
you know what kind of language they're going to
have to use to to to sort of put on top of this blockchain to make it work and they came up with
this lisp language which um to anybody who's seen lisp and i'm not a programmer but i've
looked at it and it's pretty alien to me um um but yeah kind of cheer lisp is the is the kind of
the programming language that that is behind
all of these and i think josh touched on briefly about um something called singletons uh which was
again in those early days somebody talking about a singleton was was completely mind-blowing i
you know i i had no idea what they were talking about i don't know josh if you can is it worth
kind of diving a little bit into singleton before we go on to talk about kind of NFTs and how they work?
Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah, Singletons aren't necessarily novel to Chia.
Singletons in the programming world is usually a – represents a single unique instance of a thing.
So you can think of it like going back to the example
of coins in your wallet, you've got a lot of pennies,
but you don't really have a single representation
of the penny.
The penny doesn't have like a serial number, for example.
So pennies are all fungible.
I can give you a penny if you give me back a penny,
and neither of us lost anything, neither of us gained anything, they're worth the exact same.
A singleton actually is as if you engraved a penny with a serial number on it.
And now, because it has that unique serial number, it is now special and worth more than a penny.
In this case, the simplest example is NFTs.
So an NFT is no more than a single mojo which
at its base especially with the current price at chia is worth like i said you couldn't even i
don't think you could even slice off a small enough piece of copper of a penny to to cover
the cost of one mojo it's it's like we're down at the atomic level you know i don't even know if
there's there's one trillion mojos in one xeh i don't know if there's one trillion mojos in one XCH. I don't know if there's one trillion atoms in a penny.
There probably are.
But we're talking a very, very small values here.
So anyway, these singletons are as if you took a penny and said,
hey, instead of this being worth basically nothing or the smallest amount,
now we're going to inscribe something or make something unique about this penny.
Oh, actually good analogy is those machines at the zoo that smash your
penny. I don't know if you guys have those in the UK, but you know, it like some actually
your penny and puts a cool design on it somehow. So that's actually a great example. So that
that penny now is worth more to you than a penny that that represents a bit of provenance,
you know, that reminds you of your, it's a souvenir.
It reminds you of your trip to the zoo or wherever you got the thing. That's actually a great example.
So that penny is now not a penny, it's a singleton. To you, that's worth something more as a memory
than one cent, right? So that's how you can think of singletons. Singletons are tracked over time. So that smashed penny that you hold will always be a smashed penny in your keepsakes,
your little box of treasures that you keep over time.
We're going to track that penny because that penny itself is unique to you for some reason.
So that's kind of a singleton.
And that's the basis of NFTs and all our digital assets on the Gia blockchain
when you want to uniquely identify something yeah i hope we haven't lost you anywhere yet
but uh yeah it's uh um yeah i think i think we've kind of covered covered kind of the basic bits
there um i don't know bacon you got any any any kind of follow-up questions or anything like that on
what we've covered no i'm kind of following along quite nicely um yeah my limited i've got
limited knowledge on uh on this stuff so uh yeah i'm learning i'm learning from you guys
cool cool yeah this you know when we're kind of condensing things here in like a couple of hours, but, you know, back in the back in the day, back in the day, just sort of kind of after mainnet, you know, we'd have kind of a whole hour talk or two hour talk about kind of these these things that we kind of find relatively simple now and like i said at the
start we we kind of forget that people coming in you know don't don't know that they let's face it
pretty much everybody comes from an evm kind of account model world and um you know and it can be
it could be a little daunting to come into somewhere like this you know especially when
you've got your wallet on there and you you sort of set up an offer file and all your money disappears you think oh shit what the
i've been rugged and we often see it as well like um you know somebody new will come in they'll say
i've just put this offer up but it looks like all my funds have been stolen or something like that
so um you know it's kind of coin management it's like keeping things as if they're in your pockets.
And, you know, it goes the other way around. For instance, with the with the monkey zoo NFTs, we, you know, each NFT has a kind of MZ value and the monkey zoo token is, you know, ticker MZ.
Monkeezoo token is, you know, ticker MZ.
And in those early days, when coin management wasn't particularly easy, what we would do is on a daily slash weekly basis, we would distribute tokens.
So if you had, say, 10 Monkeezoo NFTs in your wallet and each of them had various different kind various different kind of numbers whether it's you know
two seven ten on a daily basis there would be 10 transactions coming in with 10 different kind of
coins coming in a value of mz so if you can imagine after six months on a daily daily amount
of kind of 10 times 10 times uh coins coming in it started to add up and people's
wallets were starting to get bloated with so many different coins all worth a very small amount of
kind of uh mz tokens so you have the kind of opposite effect where um if you're receiving
lots of micro transactions which which happens quite a lot on here with the Tangang distribution and the Wizards and ourselves.
You kind of have to look at that now and again. And the Sage wallet is very good at showing you these coins.
So when you when you kind of look in a Sage wallet, you will you'll kind of see your xeh balance and you look at all your
your kind of tokens you've got mz hoa um you know all the other kind of tickers that are there that
are kind of being airdropped out if you actually click on one of those you can see how many coins
you've got and what value each coin is worth so you might have thousands of coins uh of mz all worth say two mz seven mz eight mz six mz
um and rather having you know imagine that in your pocket you know like real money you've got
ten thousand or a thousand coins you can just change that into a note into one coin um so you
can then add it up so it may be worth you know 10 000 mz is now one coin instead of
thousands and thousands of coins inside your wallet so um so it's not only um it's not only
the kind of um having to think about it from one direction it's kind of looking at it other ways as
well um because there are um there are certain issues you would run into it's like
if you was to go you know we've all seen these videos online where you go in to pay your parking
fine in pennies um it it wouldn't it wouldn't be accepted and that's the same with kind of
the blockchain because you can't um pay for something with thousands and thousands of coins
because the, well, I would say the block, it wouldn't fit in the block.
Would that be the right analogy, Josh?
Yeah, absolutely.
There's definitely a limited space in each block. And what that means in
practice is that if we go back to the mojos concept, where let's just say you had
a billion mojos in your account, all each an individual coin, like, you know,
maybe thousands, let's say, let's not go too big, thousands, tens of thousands.
The problem is you probably couldn't send all of those in one. So your wallet may say, hey, you've got one XCH, but it's broken into thousands and thousands of coins, like you
said. So you cannot send all one XCH in a single transaction or an offer file even, because the
transaction itself with all these thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of coins would be
too big for the single block. So to fix that, of course, you need to, over the course of several blocks, you need to send as many as you can to yourself. Basically, it's a reverse
change, right? Like you said, you're combining a bunch of coins into a bigger coin and do
that a few times over a few blocks with as many transactions as you can per block until
you have a proper coin that is worth a lot more now. So yeah, absolutely. That's a, that's a good,
good way to think about it for sure. Oh, and by the way, I've actually, I've sent hundreds of
coins single transaction. I know like with my little RB, arbitrage bot that I run that,
that just literally skims, you know, mojos of profit at a time, if it can,
I end up with lots of tiny little transactions
like that. So I frequently go and combine those coins in that wallet, just because otherwise,
I wouldn't even be able to spend them at once if I wanted to spend a bigger amount, right?
So I've successfully sent four or 500 coins at a time in a single block. I know there's also
some technology around compression. So for example, that transaction that sends 500 coins looks almost the exact same. It's just a bunch of duplicated data that he spends.
So there is some compression available that the blockchain just does internally.
And you can get a lot more.
If they're all the exact same transaction and value, then they'll be compressed into a smaller overall transaction size.
That won't necessarily work if you're accepting.
Like, let's say that you're accepting a thousand completely different offers all at once.
That obviously is not going to be the same because they're all different.
They're not compressible into a single transaction easily.
But if you're just sending a thousand XTH coins that all look the same
or even the same value, you can easily compress that to get greater uh uh tps um for for those type of
transactions so yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but that kind of it kind of leads us on to nfts and um so
what we've kind of gathered is you know everything's a coin so an nft is a coin and ultimately
like josh said it's one mojo it's one tiny tiny tiny piece of of an xch token um and so
if you can um kind of think about like uh in bitcoin terms um you know a satoshi the smallest
denomination of a bitcoin um if you could then program each individual satoshi to do something that's where kind of this singleton comes in
an nft essentially is you know one of these kind kind of mojos that have been that has its own
little smart contract its own singleton smart contract that now says that that one mojo is now
an nft uh and so the the vast difference between kind of nft on Chia and NFTs on the account model is each individual NFT is its individual kind of smart contract, its individual coin.
model works is um what an example would be 10 a 10 000 piece collection you know a big collection
on cheer it's 10 000 mojos it's 10 000 individual smart contracts whereas on ethereum it's one
it's one smart contract um which is basically you know in layman's terms a big excel spreadsheet
that uh that you interact with when when you kind of purchase things and i always
i always can kind of compare it to if you was to walk into a store uh electronic store and buy a tv
on cheer you know that tv is an nft on cheer you go in you give them your you know the value for it
and you take that coin away with you take your tv away with you whereas on ethereum what you kind of do is you you go into the store you pay your money
uh they give you the receipt and say okay yep you now own it you can't you can't really take
it away though because because it has to stay here it belongs it belongs in this kind of
spreadsheet it stays here so you're you're
kind of still own it you own it but you can't actually take it home with you that's that's
kind of the difference the way i see it is uh whereas on cheetah's a great yeah i love that
it's kind of the analogy i have is um yeah it's it's it's that it's that same concept of buying
a piece of art for instance you know more akin to that um akin to an nft it's that same concept of buying a piece of art, for instance, more akin to an NFT.
It's exactly the same principle.
It has to stay in the art gallery, though.
You own it.
That's fine.
You own it.
You can sell it.
You can do what you want with it.
But you can't really take it home with you.
It's got to stay in the gallery.
And of course, that's a great analogy because, of course, the problem now is do you trust the gallery owner?
Do you trust the TV store owner?
Do you trust that they've put up appropriate security defenses against people who are going to break into the store and possibly steal your TV and other people's TVs?
You no longer have control of that yourself.
That's the whole thing with self-custody.
So now you're back to a trust problem.
You have to trust somebody else to secure your funds.
And in an environment where it may be to their incentive not to secure your funds,
it may be their incentive, their perverse incentive to take your funds and run and go
buy an island and never be heard from again. So that is the true problem with the contract model
is you're really just kind of deciding who to trust in that model. In the Chia model,
you're really just kind of deciding who to trust in that model.
In the Chia model, you don't decide you to trust.
You, self-custody, and everything in your wallet is just mojos,
are just mojos at the very base level.
So, again, there are your mojos.
You are the only person who knows the password to unlock those mojos.
It's just that each mojo has a different costume,
and those costumes are the rules that govern that
mojo. A mojo can be a singleton, a mojo can be just an XCH that you spend, and a mojo could be
a cat token, a mojo could be your decentralized identity, represent your actual DID, your verified
credentials. There's just so many things that those little mojos can be dressed up as, so to speak,
with costumes, but at the base they are still mojos and they are still yours.
There's no, they're not deposited anywhere.
They're not part of, you know, they're not in the TV store or in the art gallery, so to speak.
They're in your house, your bunker, whatever you've decided to do there.
And they're yours.
No one can take them from you.
No one can rug them,
et cetera. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of how I see things. And I think, again,
we kind of had, you know, five or six years of Ethereum NFs to kind of look back on and and see what the issues were um and i think
one of the things that um or some of the things that came out of obviously the ethereum world
apart from obviously the ownership thing um which is which is kind of key but you know there are still a lot of issues when it comes to the account model and nfts um and if we're purely talking about kind
of um rather than the various use cases that nfts can have if we're purely talking about kind of
you know that ethereum evm world where it's just essentially it's trading you know and trying to
trying to make money um if you're an artist and you're creating the artwork you're kind of beholden to the
marketplaces you know you have to a marketplace has to give you permission to put your work on
there for starters um there's there's issues around kind of um you know permanence um how
how do we maintain that these nfts are going to live longer than
you know the ipfs that they're on top of um things like um the royalties again you know
you're beholden to the marketplace deciding whether whether your royalties are are given
or not given and that's even in the last two or three years i've seen openc and um
various marketplaces deciding yes you know fees royalties are allowed royalties aren't allowed
you know there's fees on top of things as well so you know if you're if you sell something on
openc you pay a fee to openc um and essentially what you're you're using is you're having these marketplaces
kind of be the dictators um or acting kind of as this web 2 gateway for that we were trying to get
away from you know nfts were kind of supposed to be this this kind of peer-to-peer uh kind of
thing that could that could be done and artists could start relying
on on royalties they could people could custody things and and it was kind of not quite right you
know we were we were still reliant on marketplaces dictating things um dictating like say dictating
royalties dictating if your your your your projects can come onto their marketplace.
Various different marketplaces do this.
And also the issue is, you know, there's probably 100 different marketplaces.
You'd have to go individually to each marketplace to put your artwork or your NFTs up for sale on that marketplace if they let you.
So you've got like a few a few sticky points there
and what what that really did is it kind of brought web 2 into what we want to think is a
web free world and you know the web free world in my mind is kind of this you know self-custody
peer-to-peer taking the power back type uh type environment uh and what happened really was we we allowed you know essentially these web 2.1
companies to come in and and do the same thing as as what was happening before so um with hindsight
you can look back and uh and kind of think well how do we how do we address these issues and i think that's um when the nft one standard come out we could kind of get
an idea of um how this would all work much better uh and i think i think one of the key things are
is is this offer file kind of system as well where um for instance once you've kind of minted an nft
on chia which is which is relatively
straightforward there's there's plenty of tools out there that will help you do that now but
even if you're kind of almost a novice you can mint nfts reasonably easy with um cli
command line interface but you know that's not for everybody um but i think um i think addressing
some of these issues that an nft you know that coin when you create that nft um you're giving
it certain rules uh and you're also um uh sort of putting some of the important information on chain and some of the uh maybe less important information
off chain so i think the key things are uh being able to look back and and and realize that
you know nfts probably could be better and again that hindsight gave us the opportunity to do that
so um i don't know so where would you go j Josh, here? Would you say kind of NFTs?
When did they come around?
2021, would you say?
Something like that.
I'm sure it's about 2021.
Yes, I think that's right.
Because Mainnet launched early 21.
Or was it 22, now that I think about it?
Because Mainnet launch was 21 right
i could have been 22 yeah i think it was 22 because we had cats first before nfts and that
cats were later that year i think uh the same year as main that launched but then we got nfts
like july or so of the next year i think 22 yeah 22 22 yeah yeah yeah so yeah so essentially like um like josh was saying
earlier um you kind of uh mint an nft and there's obviously certain uh um kind of standards that we
we kind of stick to to make sure that you know i guess kind of explorers and marketplaces can
actually read the nfts and the data correctly so you know
there was certainly a learning curve there about about how these nfts um the information within
the metadata should i say was different to kind of the um the ethereum kind of evm kind of metadata
as well and certainly those early days a lot of people
including myself was using the hash lips art generator to sort of generate these collections
and for anybody who's used that it was obviously an EVM type based solution that works with
Photoshop and layers and things like that so it would spit out these kind of metadata in an evm format
um so certainly the early days it was kind of it was kind of building scripts about how to change
it and to make sure that it fits in with the the chia metadata um i don't know josh do you want to
should we run through kind of kind of the um i guess the key features of nfts or or um trying to try to think where to start
with it what would be the best starting point for the nft kind of conversation
maybe i don't know are you muted josh oh i'm sorry sorry I actually my daughter is here she's just
leaving I did not catch that. That's fine I was just talking about where where do we kind of start
with NFTs? Well yeah I guess kind of kind of well start, we've already briefly described the kind of the underlying technology, you know, the singleton is what represents the NFT.
It's not so you can, again, think of like Lego building blocks or even like a what do they call those?
Troyska dolls or what's it called?
Like the Russian doll, the nesting dolls that fit into one another.
It's kind of like that. You know, you start with a base thing, like we said, the mojo,
and let's just get the mojo custody right first. And then let's put a wrapper around that. And
then let's put another wrapper around that and so on. So you've got the singleton that kind of
is code or a puzzle that wraps just the basic mojo in custody. And that represents a unique mojo for whatever
use that may bring. NFTs then is another layer around the singleton. The NFT standard is another
layer around the singleton that now says, okay, it's not just a unique mojo. know, has this extra metadata, which can include the, I think the on-chain metadata
is much sparser than the metadata available that you can put in the JSON, of course.
But I think it includes the basic stuff, like obviously the DID, the minter, who created
this thing in the first place, who minted it.
So you can get provenance from that.
The series number, I believe, or the edition number, one of those two, I always forget.
And then, of course, just some other basic stuff about the NFT itself.
Not the image, of course.
The image is stored off-chain, just like any other NFT system.
And then additional metadata is also stored off- chain in a JSON file. So an NFT really,
an NFT has three different URLs that you can attach to it when you miss it.
The obvious one is the image.
So it's a URL to an image that you've hosted out there somewhere,
hopefully maybe like an IPFS or some sort of decentralized data store.
Shout out to Michael Taylor, by the way,
who's creating DIG Network specifically for this,
for Chia to host our own kind of IPFS type
decentralized system on the Chia network.
But anyway, you have a URL that points to the image
of the NFT.
Like, what does it look like, obviously?
What's the file?
You also have a hash that you store of that image.
So that image can never be changed.
You can actually change the URL.
You can actually update where the image lives as the owner of the NFT.
So you can copy it and put it on some other hosting provider if you have to, just to back it up.
But it has to be the exact same image byte for byte.
So we're going to store the URL of the image and the hash of that image on chain as part of that NFT standard.
And then we've got two other URLs.
One is for the JSON.
So the metadata JSON.
So additional metadata that you want to include, for example,
what collection does this NFT go with?
What attributes does it have?
You know, we've seen gamification like this where, you know,
you may have different NFTs with different strengths or different random attributes or things.
So you can define those extra properties in this off-chain custom JSON file that you've created.
So you have a URL that links to that JSON file along with your image file.
And then you have a hash for that JSON file as well.
Because again, the point is that you can change where that JSON file,
that extra metadata is hosted,
but you can't change it.
As long as you can move that file
around different hosting providers,
but it has to be byte for byte,
the exact same configuration file or JSON file.
And again, we're going to store a hash
to confirm that on the blockchain.
And then thirdly, the most,
probably the one that people forget about a lot,
I certainly do, is the license. So you can actually have a URL that links to a license file
that describes your license for the owner of the NFT. You know, IP property restrictions or
allowances or, you know, whatever license you've created for that NFT collection can actually also be stored in an off-chain,
in any sort of file, actually. It's just a URL. It could be a text file that you create. It could be a JSON file.
Text is the simplest, obviously, so most people just do a simple text file.
And then again, the third hash. So we're going to keep that. We're going to keep a hash of that license file because again,
you can move that license file around the different hosting providers,
but you cannot change anything in the license file.
We're going to store a hash of that on blockchain,
on the chain to verify that it's always the same license file,
regardless of where it comes from,
just like the image and just like the JSON.
So those three different URLs are part of that NFT standard
that go on top or around the Singleton standard. The Singleton doesn't care about URLs. That's an
NFT thing, right? So we create a third layer around the Singleton now, or a third layer that
is the NFT layer, so to speak. And it has, as part of its parameters,
it's got this extra information about URLs and hashes
and things like that that makes sense for NFTs, obviously.
But again, if you unwrap the doll, so to speak,
and go all the way back to the beginning,
you still at the base have a mojo, a single coin,
that can be owned by somebody in their wallet.
And so it always comes back to that.
Well said. Well said.
Well said.
So I think another key factor is,
so when the information that you need to give
when you're minting an NFT is essentially,
you want to give it,
and just to kind of, as long as you're happy with what a hash is.
A hash is essentially it's a, you know, alpha numerical kind of string of string of of of numbers that represents something.
represents something.
So for instance, if you have an image
and you find out the hash of that image,
you'll have a string of text.
And if you change like a single pixel within that image,
that hash will then change.
So essentially what the information you're giving
to kind of this singleton is you're giving it the URL
of the image and the hash of that image
the url of where the data the metadata lives and the hash of that and then obviously with
the license file exactly the same you're also going to give it um you know if it's an addition
number you know one to one to ten thousand um you're also going to give it um what royalty
percentage you want on there so uh for example if you want
five percent royalties forevermore you kind of bake that in and that's baked into this kind of
you know single contract um you also then give it um um a did which we haven't really touched
on too much but uh which is a digital identification so um prior to minting anything you can create
a did which essentially again is a coin um but what that coin lives inside of your wallet
um and is unique to you uh so so so for example um when you're minting an nft you say i'm going
to mint it and this did belongs to me so i'm
attaching it to this did so monkey zoo's got a did uh and everything i've been um
is using this did and again that's kind of programmed into this mojo into this coin
and then obviously you kind of um uh give it a give it a kind of a fee to mint, which is so many mojos, I believe.
I think there's a there's kind of a base amount of kind of mojos that it takes to to to kind of mint something.
But essentially, when you press that go button on that mint um it then turns that mojo
into your nft and that mojo then becomes this kind of individual smart contract which is your nft and
it'll mint it into your wallet or the wallet that you've you've minted it from uh obviously you can
you can add additional things on there you could probably mint it to another wallet for
instance you might have a whitelist and you want to send them out so rather than the minting to
your wallet like you can mint them out to other wallets so and another key thing is certainly with
the a lot of collections the monkey zoo collection specifically you can have multiple kind of um urls and hashes so uh
you know i think the the big thing um was using kind of the free ipfs services which are
you know kind of disappearing right now so we we kind of have three different separate data points so we use we use our weave uh we use pinata
uh and we were using kind of the was it nft up i can't remember whoever they are the free one
um but essentially what you've got then is you've got three different pointers to this information
so if one of them ever disappears you know if um like it has done
uh it kind of falls back so you've got three kind of backups um so essentially you know you have
multiple different kind of uh points of of where this data can be be received from so you you never
lose you never lose that image and i think one of the key things is
that if you own an nft um you can actually add more of those in for yourself um so for example
if we ever got to the stage where you know monkey zoo nfts were kind of the board apes
you know worth 50 50 000 and it had one kind of dodgy url pointing to an old kind of uh
um service that the potentially could down could go down you know you as the owner could back that
up onto our weave yourself get the links and add that into the nft as well so it kind of you kind
of build that that kind of uh protection in for yourself as well so it does of you kind of build that that kind of protection in for
yourself as well so it does give you a very very small amount of freedom to to
protect your assets a little bit more as well so yeah I think so they're the key
things and like I say once it's once it's sat in your wallet essentially
you've got a an NFT in your wallet and again it's a mojo that's that's kind of programmed differently to all the other
mojos that are out there and it's unique and this one this one can't be broken down it's kind of um
it's gone gone from kind of uh fungible to non-fungible um if if that makes sense
are there any questions so far on NFTs?
Otherwise, we'll just ramble on forever about stuff.
What's my famous saying?
Waffle.
I think that's the one Steve Stepp likes.
Just waffle on.
I still like your analogy of the art gallery or the TV store, because again, it's back to this concept.
In the EVM world with NFTs, you are kind of almost renting the NFT.
You own it according to their ledger, but it's not yours in your wallet physically like
with the Chia blockchain. So just like back to the analogy, that's like you having your
art that you've purchased, but it's only available in the gallery. And we only buy
the fancy lighting around the art. It only comes from a single company. And we're going to be the
ones who control who that company is. And if they ever go out of business, sorry, the lights are going to go
off, and you don't have any say over that. You still own the art, but there's just not going to
be any lights on it, so you can't see it, right? That's like the concept of the hosting provider
going away after you purchased, after you spent, you know, $100,000 on your ape. And now the hosting
provider pulls the image, and you're looking at a big red X that supposedly is worth six figures.
So that's the beauty of the TIA blockchain is you actually own that thing.
So you get to decide that in this case, the lighting is the hosting provider, right?
Now, obviously, it's already on a hosting provider to start with from the original mentor, but you can add backups.
That's what Tim is saying is you can actually copy that image to another hosting provider,
add that because you're the owner of that thing.
You can now put another URL along as the hashes match.
So we know it's an exact copy of the image.
You can put that on your own provider and add that to the NFT.
And that will now always be on that NFT.
Even if you trade it or sell it or give it to someone else,
the original server provider is there your server
provider that you added is there and then maybe the third owner a third service provider when they
when they get theirs for their own rest you know peace of mind so again it's it's you are in control
this is the beauty of self-custody of true self-custody rather than just being uh you know
aligning the ledger in a in a contract model, it's kind of like putting all your eggs in one basket.
And a lot of people kind of talk about these things should be on chain.
And there's pros and cons to that, I think, as well.
um but essentially the more the more data you put on chain the more expensive it is to uh to
But essentially, the more data you put on chain,
trade transfer uh to move it because obviously these these nfts uh are kind of kept small all
the on-chain stuff for chio is kept quite small um so we want to try and keep that to minimal as possible. But, you know, and again, the kind of the royalty percentage is kind of baked into it as well.
So I don't know.
Is my phone just rubbed?
Can you can you hear me?
Yep, I can still hear you.
Yeah.
Where was I?
Yeah.
So so it's kind of that permanence um
that provenance as well i think is really key um so so something that's pretty unique to them as
well is that um there's if you mint them with a did um or even if you kind of collect nfts
you can you can assign your did if you're a collector for instance
so um you know if i was to purchase an nft from uh anyone down below i believe zotacus is going
to release something fairly soon um i will i will collect that into my wallet and i'll also assign
that uh my did to say you know i own this and um it's kind of mine and then
if that is then sold on again in the future or i or i give it away um that's kind of embedded
inside of that as well so there's kind of this this provenance that travels around within the
nft as well um i'm not quite sure and Josh, you might point me in the right direction here,
I'm not sure if that is actually embedded in the NFT or in the coin itself, that provenance?
No, actually, it's pretty interesting how that works. So it doesn't actually modify the NFT
with your ownership, so to speak. What's happening when you assign an NFT to your
DID as a collector, you're actually spending two coins at the same time. So you're spending your
DID back to yourself because again, it's just a mojo. You're just spending it. You're just saying,
hey, I'm proving I own this by spending it back to myself. And at the same time, you are spending the NFT back to
yourself as well. So it's almost like you're just you're just sending it in a loop. You're sending
it you're sending it out, but it's coming right back to you. But because you spent both your D.I.D.
and the NFT in the exact same block, they are now intrinsically linked together. And any block
explorers like Mintgarden or whatever will see, oh, this NFT was spent in the exact same block as this other DID, which means that they are linked.
You know, they both basically authorized each other to be spent in the same transaction back to that atomic swap thing we talked about earlier.
a person owned both the DID mojo and the NFT mojo,
and they can spend both of those in the same exact block
together, which kind of proves that they are the owner of both
of those things.
And now we know the owner of the NFT.
So yeah, it doesn't actually affect the NFT.
It's just by the very nature of the transaction,
the history of the transactions.
If you order them in a correct way, by saying, for example,
I'm going to spend these two things in the same exact block,
that in itself is proof that you
are the only person who could have done that.
That means you own it.
A lot of things work like that actually.
Again, the offer file itself.
Back to the the rules
I mentioned earlier I will send you one XCH or or rather I should say I authorize anybody to send
themselves one XCH out of my wallet as long as they follow these other rules which is you must
send me you must send 15,000 space bucks to this address which is my address but otherwise anybody
can spend this right out of my wallet and send it themselves. So it's kind of the same concept is that, you know,
by proof of, you can actually, it's not just the owner of the coin that can spend it,
as long as the puzzle allows it. Theoretically, anybody can spend the coin, but they have to do
something else to satisfy the rules of that spend. That could be sending other coins to another address in the same block.
That could be, in the case of NFTs, improving the DID ownership.
That could be when you spend this NFT back to yourself,
you also have to spend your DID in the same block
so that they see each other and link together
and know that there's only one person
who could have spent those two things in the same block linked together like that.
So now we know that it's owned by you.
So there's all kinds of fun little tricks like this,
that these coins can work together.
It's a, if you're a computer or science engineer,
it's a Turing complete language.
In other words, you can pretty much program anything,
any sort of complex behavior into this model.
If you think hard enough about it.
That's the trick. As Tim mentioned earlier,
the LISP programming language is certainly not a modern.
There's not a lot of people in this day and age who know
LISP like the other procedural languages out there,
or object-oriented languages.
Definitely a bit of a risk there.
Not a risk, I should say.
It's a learning curve.
So theoretically, you can do any sort of complex activity
using this language.
You just have to, you might be the first one
that's ever figured out how to do it.
That's the fun part.
Yeah, I can kind of vouch for that.
You know, we've been working on this NFT fusion,
which is essentially storing coins within coins, you know, NFTs within NFTs.
And Lucky8, you know, a kind of developer within the ecosystem that's um that understands lisp uh create the
the the true list for the for the puzzle um and i can't make heads or tails of it i really can't
uh it's uh it i think it's becoming easier i think what um you know like anything within this
within all ecosystems you know there are people working to make it easier for all this
to happen if i think if we look back really to kind of the early days of the chia wallet for
instance um it it wasn't particularly easy to use um you know we're kind of now pretty much all using
the sage wallet which is much more um user friendly it's faster um it kind of um explains
things a little bit easier it shows you these coins and things like that so we've come a long
way um and really it's only been a short amount of time um you know from when we say like 2022
so three years um since kind of nfts were were kind of launched uh were kind of launched and we're still playing around with the technology.
I think there's a lot more to come.
And I know obviously when, you know, Bram and Gene come on and talk about kind of these very high end subjects of stocks and shares and, you know, the stuff they're doing with Pimuto.
Essentially, it's what
we're talking about right now you know i think they're the new cloud wallet is essentially an nft
that's that's pretty much what it is and it all comes down to this mojo it's a it's a mojo it's a
coin you know your your wallet uh you know your cloud wallet for instance that they've just released is a is a coin
uh it's a it's it's just uh it's just an nft that's doing various different things so um we're
still we're still in the very early days of of making it much more user friendly for everybody
and uh and and and it's been it's been fascinating to see that journey, actually, you know, coming from those early days, talking about it.
And I distinctly remember probably yourself, Josh and Clyde, hashing out kind of what could be done with NFTs, you know, what are they capable of?
And, you know, what are the bits that are on chain and what are the bits that are off chain and why have they done that?
And, yeah, it's been a it's
been a great journey i must admit to go along with things and you know like everything else um
the coin price doesn't doesn't reflect the capabilities of what's going on in the chia
ecosystem and i mean that from um from from a technical side of view and also from a community
side of things as well i think we've seen the emergence of you know the tang gang for instance
coming along and kind of building this community around nfts and tokens and um tom beppe really
getting behind this kind of community uh led led ventures and you've got the wizards kind of now popped up and they're
doing various different things um you know that it's it's been really cool to watch it go from
basically some very high level nerds and i'm going to stick you in that that uh that bucket there
josh uh kind of having this really super understanding of what's going on
um and and people like clyde as well which had this ability to explain these really really
complex things in such a way that it was understandable for me as a non-developer
to think well okay these are the capabilities i just need to find the people
that can make it happen and and that's kind of what i did um but it's really interesting to see
the the kind of growth that's happened in a relatively small time i know we're not at the
you know at the levels of the ethereum hype or the solana hype um but i'm convinced that that that
day will come um and i think it's just a matter of a matter of time before that happens so um but
it's it's it's been really cool to to kind of watch these these sort of groups of people kind of
form communities and get around things and um you know kind of understand things a little bit
more as well of of why why things are the way they are on share and why they've been built this way
and um you know you're never going to take you're never going to take the dgen fully out of the dgen
put it that way but um you can you can protect the dgen a bit more if you can if you can protect the degen a bit more. If you can give the degen the kind of, you know,
Bitcoin level security and a much more secure environment to degen in,
they're less likely to have all their funds nicked by someone as well,
which kind of made me laugh about when you started off this space,
talking about the guy coming in and trying to kind of scam scam some people you know just i'd say good luck good luck getting into uh
into my stuff because you're not going to but yeah it's been really cool um i'm not sure when
you're you're wrapping up um mickey or if you've got any questions on anything we've covered in the last couple of hours
yeah i mean i'm happy to keep going for a little bit if you like i mean we normally wrap up at um
11 so in eight minutes so if you're happy to to wrap it up there for now because you know i'd
love to do this every every so often because i know there's so much to learn and i'm you know
truly grateful that you guys are having these conversations because there's there's so much depth to it but it's it is really mind-blowing it is interesting with
what you're saying as well with um you know what what really took me about cheer was that the
community are so focused on building although the price of the at the token itself fluctuates it doesn't change what the tech is doing it only
changes some people's perspective of the tech and i think that's the important part because
one of the things i was really fortunate enough to learn in my first couple of years in this
industry was that price doesn't dictate value now of course it matters to a degree and
it matters at certain times and at certain points but it looks like that the team and the community
are busy building the value or building the things that will bring the value and making it more
user-friendly um you know you've been doing spaces for a long time helping people learn the tech
that's the awesome thing about the community.
Like there's somebody that's been really curious about cheer.
And I've noticed that a lot of the community are saying, you know, come listen into this space.
This will help you learn this segment of it.
You should come and check this out.
Or these people will help you understand this part.
And that is what the cheer community has been like this whole time.
And I think it's absolutely epic because I think if we can all agree on one thing,
is that this tech has the ability to make a profound impact in the world in many different ways.
And it's just a case of trying to understand how that is.
But like what you were saying, you don't see yourself as a developer,
but you understand the tech enough you know you don't see yourself as a developer but you understand
the tech enough to know if it's possible i just need to find the right people to make it so
um which i know is a problem with just web3 in general because trust is an issue obviously not
when it comes to the the trustless element of the tech but finding the people to help build
the infrastructure that doesn't require
trust is the is the tough part because you know like the start the start of space that
you know someone's account's been compromised and that puts people in risk so it's a case of
always being suspicious of everything all the time um but just to you know reel that back to this conversation, it feels like cheer is a lot of, it's a lot like a do-it-yourself kind of blockchain when it comes to the NFT element.
Because it seems the fact that it's a token and you can fine-tune it to do certain things. I think once people grasp, which I'm still grasping, by the way, I will never claim
to have a level of understanding I don't have, but I'm okay with not knowing things.
That's why I like these conversations, because some things take a long time to learn.
Some things I pick up quite quick, some things take a long time, and with cheer it's taken me
a long time to fully understand it, and I'm still far from where I would like to be but I enjoy the process of learning it of
listening to it of seeing what's being built on it how people have managed to
accomplish things it's helped a lot of people you know like with the Sage
Wallet for example becoming something the community have been able to utilize
because it's much more user-friendly and how the community have been able to utilize because it's much more user-friendly and how the community have been able to kind of rally around that and build from that I just think
that that's brilliant and the fact that developers are openly building and openly having conversations
every day just makes it awesome for people to kind of really tap in and learn
to really tap in and learn yeah yeah i think um i think one of the key things is that um you know
anybody anybody can can do anything on the cheer blockchain you know it is kind of this open
environment um permissionless you can you kind of do what you. And I think one of the key things are that the fundamentals,
like Josh touched on earlier,
you know, these key things
that have been audited and created,
you know, all go back
to this kind of single point,
you know, this mojo.
And these different standards
are for us to kind of use.
They're out of the box and they're secure.
And I think that's the kind of key difference here is there's not 5,000 different, you know, EIPs floating around that do all these different things.
You know, these key things, these fundamentals have been created for us to kind of utilize and play with so um it's um it's definitely worth digging a little bit deeper into it because essentially
um and drac said this yesterday on um on the on the podcast thing with digital gold you know it
takes away all that worry about security and um you know have i got to worry about protecting this have
i got to worry about this contract's going to be you know um hacked or you know it's just there and
it just works and i think that's the that's the key key kind of things that um that i enjoy it's
you know it does what it says on the tin is that it's a famous advert in the uk but it's exactly that it's
it's it's secure and i think if you can if you can kind of think about your nfts you know your
your jpegs your fun jpegs um kind of having the level of security that um you know permute erg
are now going to utilize um you know, bring real securities on chain.
Your, well, my JPEG monkeys have the same level of security that are being trusted by governments
and kind of enterprise customers.
So, you know, why not utilize it?
Why aren't kind of banks and all these industries using Ethereum?
It's been around, you know, the last 10 years.
Why aren't they all using it?
Because it's kind of flawed in different areas.
We've not really touched on kind of the things like MEV, you know,
maximum extracted value or sandwich attacks and how the blocks are formed
and how finalization of blocks are formed as well so
um you know there's this kind of takes away a lot of the worries that i would have um and and why i
never did anything on anything in the past was purely because of these things that just didn't
quite make sense to me even for my my little jpeg monkeys uh you know it didn't
make sense to me then and and it's you know it doesn't make sense to me now that why would you
why would you want to build something long term on something that's you know a little bit delicate
maybe in certain areas and certainly when it comes to security so So, but yeah, I'll finish up on that and pass it over to Josh for any final words.
We could probably talk for another hour
on the future things that could potentially be done
with this type of thing as well.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I love talking about all kinds of ideas
and just kind of brainstorming about stuff.
But yeah, and something you said,
I guess that's what I'll end on too,
is we've mentioned the development environment for Chia is Chia Lisp.
It's the Lisp language based on the Lisp language,
a very old and unique language that's still in use today by some older systems,
but it has very unique properties about it that make it very
secure for specifically blockchain.
But that's not important.
A lot of developers, myself included, I actually do not, I have not myself written and deployed any Chialisp at all.
In all of my projects, I've never gotten down to that level.
Tim, I know you work with Lucky8, and I know he definitely has gotten down to that level.
But the point is, that's what I was trying to mention earlier, is think of it more like Lego blocks.
You know, the Chia team has created these primitives, as we call them, the Singleton, the NFT standard, the DID standard, the verified credentials, the vault standard with the new cloud wallet stuff, you know, clawback mechanisms, all of these basic Lego blocks, if you will.
And your job as a developer, and I would say 90% of the case, is to simply plug those different blocks together.
You don't have to get down on the Chialisp language level.
A lot of work has been done for you, specifically and audited by very smart, much smarter people than me.
I certainly would not trust myself to write raw Chialisp and then just deploy it without a lot more eyes on it. But I certainly trust myself to take the Lego blocks that Bram and team have already devised and proven and audited and plug those together because that's the whole point.
So as a developer, don't look at the cheapest language and get discouraged
and because there's a steep learning curve.
If you want to get down at that level,
I almost liken it to like assembly language.
You can certainly as a programmer learn all the
way down to the bits and the bytes of the
going across the processor in the assembly
language and all that if you really want to.
Certainly and you can make it very
performance and you can learn all that,
but you don't have to, right?
You can exist at a higher level and kind of work with higher level abstractions,
which are these Lego blocks.
Similar to that analogy, you know, if you're building a Lego set
and you need a custom part,
are you more likely to go buy a million-dollar injection molding machine
and the plastic and the experience necessary to design that mold
and create all the, you know, the color, the plastic and the experience necessary to design that mold and create all the, you know,
the color, the plastic, the correct batches of color and everything to get everything just right?
Or are you just going to somehow creatively snap together a few other Lego blocks that kind of look
like that shape? And that's even kind of nicer or cooler, right? Like that's kind of a cool concept.
So that's the point. Lego blocks are meant to snap together. You can certainly create your own
Lego blocks if you have a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of determination and you absolutely need that very special Lego part.
But it's also possible to just snap a bunch of others together and probably get closer to what you want anyway.
Fully audited and battle proven and battle tested in the real world already. So that's kind of an analogy there.
I would say as a developer, learn first the blocks, the primitives, the singleton, the NFT, all of these different standards.
And use the APIs.
Several wallets have APIs that are very familiar.
If you're any sort of web programmer where you talk to an API with JSON, it's all very similar.
You talk to an API, you ask it to do things for you,
mint NFTs, combined coins,
all of the different primitive type things you can do.
So I would say start there,
start automating those things,
making interesting concoctions of tools
that mint NFTs automatically from a Twitter post perhaps.
I'll set a plug for my Go4Me project and SeedSnap.
Come up with interesting uses
for these primitives that are already there, and don't
worry so much about trying to build
at the lower level, at least to start.
Obviously, you can progress to that state,
but I, after three or four years now,
I still am very happy just playing with the Lego blocks.
I don't actually need to build my own
Legos yet, or have any desire to do that.
And I certainly wouldn't trust myself over, you know,
brand or team to develop something much more secure.
So anyway, I think that's where I'll leave it.
Oh, I would also say I love to thank you very much for the space.
By the way, this is amazing.
I love this kind of throwback, like Tim said,
to the classic tech talks we have.
Ideas for next time, we could actually talk more about some of the community stuff.
So obviously, you know, Dexy, TibetSwap, NotBot.
I'm really happy with Ken Griggs kind of identity provider stuff there with proving you're a human instead of a bot, especially in today's AI world.
Data layer, you know, all kinds of other fun things that the community's built
with these Lego blocks and kind of explaining how they work and how you could build something
similar yourself. So that's where I'll leave it. Thank you very much. No, thank you. It's been
amazing. And I really do appreciate you guys allocating the time for this. I'd be happy to do,
you know, a space like this every every month you know um we should definitely book
something in for to you know just to keep diving into these things and keep having these conversations
because it's really it's really valuable and it's really helpful and you made a really good point
there about you know utilizing what's already been created and tested um and and not overwhelming
yourself with the depth of understanding necessary to build something from
scratch when that's not necessarily how you need to play it that that's you've really got me
thinking about that actually because that was really an awesome analogy that's just really
piecing stuff together in your brain so thank you for that that was awesome um i also saw candy came
on stage she's an absolute legend. Candy, hello. Happy Friday.
I don't know if you have any questions or if there's anything you wanted to talk about specifically, but the floor is yours.
Happy Friday.
Yes, no, I was just, you know, I was in another Chia space you guys had and then this one.
And overall, I kind of felt like it's like the reverse of EVM. So I checked with ChatGPT to see if that
was correct. And it said, you know, it's not directly reversed. It's more of an inverted
architecture compared to EVM. And so then I wanted to, you know to nail it down.
So I went ahead and pulled out the old tell it to me like I'm five line
and I thought it was quite cute what it came up with.
So I just wanted to share.
It said Chia works the opposite of Ethereum
because instead of one big cookie jar that everyone writes in,
Chia gives every cookie its own little rule book.
And when you use a cookie, you throw it away and make new ones that follow those rules.
I love it.
Is that correct? Does that nail it?
That's perfect.
Perfect. And maybe we can talk about this more next time too.
I can grasp that.
But as a developer, especially or any sort of technical question,
you will be blown away by how simple the data stored behind the blockchain is.
If you think of an Excel spreadsheet,
think of an Excel spreadsheet with three columns going down.
One of the columns is the amount column, of course,
and the other two have hashes in them.
But with those three columns in the database, that's it.
That's all you need to run this entire blocking.
Technically, there's another column that we'll talk about later.
But the point is, it's very simple.
You are in control of each of your own cookies versus the cookies all being in someone else's jar.
I love that.
I can't believe we just spent two hours wasting our time.
We could have just...
Yeah, we should have just asked the GPT.
Yeah, exactly.
Give me a Cookie Monster analogy.
That's what I need.
That's brilliant, though.
That's a great way to explain it, I think.
Yeah, I do.
AI gets it.
Oh, I see somebody else just popped on stage as well.
Who's that?
Got Tony? Thank you for the question popped on the stage as well. Who's that? Got Pony.
Yes, hello.
Thank you for the question, Candy, as well.
I appreciate you guys for that.
Yeah, Get Pony.
Hello, sir.
Happy Friday.
Good evening, good evening.
Good night to some people and good morning to others.
I just had one quick question.
I know I'm super late, been protecting the brand all day.
One of the questions that I have is Ethereum has a new protocol called DevEats, which is pretty much it's holder friendly.
It allows devs and teams to extract liquidity without dumping on the charts.
And I want to know, does ChiaList have something like that or plans to implement something like that because we want
this whole space in every chain to be holder friendly we shouldn't have anybody dumping on
people that believe in the dream uh there should be ways that other people can get paid i just
want to know if you guys are working on something like that um i i'm not i'm not familiar with the
eip i i have to admit but i think um uh i mean josh
could probably expand on it i think anything's pretty pretty much possible you know you've got
to really consider that um you know the the tier kind of ecosystem still only sort of three or four
years old so it's uh you know these these kind of um kind of things probably
haven't even really been thought about too much just yet uh you know the evm world's way ahead
i think i think the key thing is that um that regardless of what you kind of do on top of the
evm you still have have the fundamental underlying issues
with the security and, you know, maybe kind of like these sandwich attacks,
MEV, that type of thing.
But, yeah, I'm not familiar with it.
I don't know if you can expand any more, Josh, if you understood it.
Kind of, maybe.
I don't.
I certainly am not familiar with that specific thing over in the EVM world.
But it kind of reminds me of, like, the Tibet swap model, but this is really just like Uniswap model where people can deposit liquidity and then they get back the liquidity token.
And just because they cash in a bunch of the liquidity token at once doesn't necessarily affect the charts.
It just affects the next poor guy who purchases it.
If someone pulls out all the liquidity, the price doesn't go down, but the next person who purchases is going to get a much more raw deal, right?
Like more slippage.
So I don't know if that's similar.
It's very similar.
The only thing is they burn tokens increasing the value of the remaining supply.
So that's the little tweak.
That's the little tweak that dev each does.
Well, theoretically, I will say, like I said earlier, it's a Turing complete language. So theoretically, anything is possible.
It's just a matter of trying to figure out exactly how to do it in this kind of different
Lisp language environment. And not only that, but sometimes the best solution is not to do it all in
a single coin or a single puzzle, but to have multiple coins working together at the same time
in the same block, like I mentioned earlier with, for example, spending your DID at the same time
you spend your NFT to prove that you own the NFT because only the owner could have spent both of
those things at the same time in the same block. So fun little things like that also contribute to
the Turing completeness of the language. In other words, you can use, instead of using a single coin
with a bunch of code,
you could use multiple different coins,
each with their own little units of code
that all interacts together.
Depending on how you spend them and groups you spend them in,
prove different things like you're
the owner or things like that.
Absolutely possible. I don't know.
I'd have to look more into the actual,
what you're talking about on the EVM side,
but, and that goes back to the Chialist side.
So this would definitely be something
that would probably be down at the Chialist level.
I don't know of any existing like Lego blocks
as I mentioned earlier, so to speak,
that would do that just kind of out of the box.
But, you know, once you created that primitive,
then theoretically anybody else could use it
with just different parameters,
similar to like a UNI swap, setting up an AMM or something like that.
Boss, thank you for answering that. Thank you so much. That's all I wanted to answer.
I've been waiting like a week. You know, COC, let me know you're going to be here. So I
appreciate that answer from Josh and Monkey. Thank you so much. That's it. That's all I got.
You guys rock. I appreciate you for letting me me um speak guys because i know i came in really late so i
appreciate that all good you know thank you for coming in yeah no thank you for answering that
and thank you for asking that as well that's awesome but i will definitely keep doing these
um these spaces i mean we don't have to set an exact time on it we're just whatever suits but
you know every month or so we could definitely you know allocate a space to do this because I think it's awesome and it's important
and it's really helpful on an educational level you know within cheer but also outside of it and
I think these these conversations between what happens here and what happens there and what
works here and there I think is awesome and you know like that just then you know that some things
haven't even been thought of over there yet for other reasons but i also like your way of thinking on on that as well monkey zoo with you know the fundamentals
have to be right so that when everything else is built on after it it kind of has the same level
of security so you know that's that's interesting it really had me thinking about some stuff as well
so that was a brilliant question and uh and thank you for asking it and for coming up and uh you
know i appreciate you even waiting the week to come and ask so you know that's my day that you got to come in and ask it
before before the end of the space so but i you know i really do appreciate the time people take
and for everyone listening in as well you know we appreciate your legends you know we hope you're
learning as well and you know getting something out of this and if anyone does have any questions
like we said you know we'll we'll make a habit of this so that if there are any questions and you didn't get to ask them you know write them down somewhere so
you can ask them next time and uh you know i'm sure that um that tim and josh will think of
more things to tap into every time we do these spaces as well because you know you guys are
awesome um and and we appreciate that you're willing to take the time to help educate people and share the knowledge that you guys have accumulated through however long of your journeys in and out of this space.
But it's great because I think, you know, a good way for people to learn is through conversation, is through, you know, poking at thoughts and feeling comfortable to ask questions that you might think makes you feel a little silly
but you know there isn't such thing as a stupid question you know so it's awesome that you guys
speak on this stuff and i know that for some people it will be quite overwhelming for a long
time you know a lot of time things are overwhelming to me and i have to think about it over a long
period of time or really annoy bacon by asking him the same question 10
different ways before one of his answers makes sense to what i'm asking um the poor bloke but
he's from the south anyway so we don't really care about how he feels but um no i appreciate
that you guys uh you know have taken the time tonight to uh help us understand cheer a lot more
and uh absolutely appreciate it yeah no problem i think um like josh said we've not really um sort of
dived into you know dexie or tibet swap or mint garden space scan you know all these kind of um
again kind of building blocks with these fantastic apis that you can draw draw on um to to get all
the information you could possibly need.
So, yeah, I'm definitely up for kind of once a month or whatever coming back
and diving in a little bit deeper into these certain aspects.
I think today was pretty good, and it was a bit of a walk down memory lane for myself
of figuring out kind of how these things work and you know when you when you kind of
dive into something that's going against the grain you know let's face it we are the people
within the cheer community are going against the grain they are they're not um you know going with
the crowd to towards solana and then uh now they're switching all across to kind of the l2s
that are going on eth we're we're kind of um you know doing something a little bit unique playing
with something that's on on really really is on the cutting edge of what this what this kind of
blockchain technology is is capable of uh and it's and i can tell you now it's much more exciting than
And I can tell you now, it's much more exciting than kind of digging around the Solana trenches, trying to find a meme coin that goes off for 30 seconds.
But yeah, I'll leave it on that and say, yeah, I'm happy to come back anytime and chat with you guys.
Likewise.
Yeah, thanks again for having space. Really enjoyed it.
A little bit of nostalgia here and hope to do it some more. So, yeah. In fact, I'd love to get even
maybe like Yak or Acevale or one of the other. Earlier, Monkeezoo, you mentioned you were like,
I'm not really a developer. Josh is a developer. I think that about Yak or Acevale. It's like,
I just basically dabble in programming compared to them,
or like Bram or whatever.
So it's imposter syndrome all the way down.
Don't worry about it.
There's no stupid questions.
We're all just here to learn.
That is so good.
And it's awesome that that's what's always felt like the uh the ethos with cheer is
that everyone's just so happy to help each other learn and everyone is always learning and pushing
the bounds and enjoying the tech and understanding how to build things and getting excited about what
people are building and as people are learning they're building their own ecosystem simultaneously
um like you team with monkeys are you know you've been building that for a long period of time.
And it's exciting to see how the tech is being built on and how people can utilize it.
And like what, you know, Drakatis is building.
And, you know, just as two examples, you know, there's a lot of things being built that are really profound.
examples you know there's a lot of things being built that are really profound and it is really
And it is really awesome.
awesome and it's great that we can be around so many great minds that are able to to share that
and pass around this knowledge so that people can acquire it and you know there's people outside
you know like how we feel when we have got a level of understanding of course that level's
different for everyone but there are some people that are still don't even know that web 3 is even
a thing they don't even know blockchain's a thing to them someone said it was a scam or they lost
money somewhere and that was they'd made that decision that it doesn't even exist in their
brain yet you know and yet we see where this space is going and how it's going to impact and
you know the fact that people are making the education element a priority and the safety
element of course and the understanding i think is just it just opens up so many opportunities for
people right across the board to to further understand the space and uh i think at the
same time it's bringing people and communities together to uh to understand it as well so
you know we'll definitely um we'll do more of these and we'll have a chat on the back end so to slot in another time that that suits you guys like i said we know we really do
appreciate you two coming and doing this just out of the kindness of your own heart you know you're
not getting anything out of doing this it was just you know you just did this to help people
further understand the space so we really do appreciate that and uh you know a massive shout
out to you two for sharing these few hours with us.
But yeah, we'll wrap it up for tonight.
Appreciate everyone for coming in and for listening in and for sharing the space.
I know it was a bit funny tonight that we weren't able to share the space
and drop a comment like normal.
But hopefully for the next space, that won't be the case.
We will be back again tomorrow, as usual, for a community walk--in so if you do want to come and chat to us tomorrow you
are more than welcome to do so um a shout out to popular as well who let us come and speak on their
space yesterday um that really meant a lot as well so thank you to that i do believe they've
got a space coming up soon i think that if i remember hearing rightly they're celebrating
12 years um building their app if i understand that correctly if i'm wrong i apologize um i just remember the number 12 because i was thinking that the next space you do is
space number 21 so i just thought of the 12 and the 21 so definitely check out popular's next space
because it is a celebration nonetheless so yeah shout out to popular for that
as well and um thank you to everyone that came up and asked questions as well we appreciate that
that's awesome that's exactly what this is about to help people learn and understand and ask
questions and uh appreciate you josh and uh tim you guys are so good at this honestly i mean
your understanding is phenomenal but also the public speaking element to it helping people
understand it and just being ready for
these questions because i know that you guys have been learning for so long and one of the things i
wanted to quickly mention before we wrap up is we learned about cheer through art with heart brad
and dracatus and when that first kind of came about to us they kept coming back to us with
different things they'd learned and was like you know you
kind of want you might want to check this out this is quite amazing and they kept coming back
with different things like and you got to a point where it's like listen you really have to come and
check this out I can't stress enough and he gave the analogy of us being in the cave and he went
out to venture out of the cave and realized there was this prosperous world out
there that we was refusing to go out and experience so when we came out and we experienced it was like
ah yeah you were right about that so i thought that was that was pretty awesome and we appreciated
his patience for how long it took us to to check it out but it wasn't through anything other than
just web 3 is full of full of noise
and a lot of thing going on and of course there's many communities and spaces and things happening so
we got around to it in the end and we definitely didn't regret it so yeah that being said thank
you very much uh tim thank you josh thank you to everyone that listened in you guys have been
phenomenal i hope that you guys got as much out of it as I did.
And this space is recorded as well.
So you can listen back if you need to listen back.
If there was something you didn't quite catch or you missed it.
But if you do have any questions from anything.
Don't hesitate to reach out to me.
If you want to speak to me and I can ask for the next space.
Or if you want to reach out to Monkey Zoo or Josh.
I'll apologise in advance.
If your DMs get bombarded i'm sure you guys will be happy to uh help people out you you normally seem
to so um yeah um the bacon sandwich have you got any closing remarks my friend before we close this
off i think the clock has already struck in 23 00 so he's probably turned into a pumpkin
um crypto tour have you got any closing remarks brother
no i don't blame you there was a lot said but uh they're like if you stay quiet i'll just show up
so we can go to bed but no we've had a long week we uh we went to um an event on thursday to the christmas
meetup for world of women which was epic we got to meet the ceo and some of the team over there
and some of the community and it was an amazing experience so uh yeah that was a journey to london
and to the event and then back home as well so that was amazing which we'll talk about tomorrow
probably but yeah no tim thank you josh thank amazing, which we'll talk about tomorrow probably. But yeah, no, Tim, thank you.
Josh, thank you so much.
We'll schedule on the back end another time to continue this.
And I appreciate that you guys are even willing to do that.
I'm really excited about it because I do know how there are a lot of things to unpack.
And we could probably talk about this forever.
So that being said, I will call it a night.
Thank you, everyone.
You have been awesome.
We'll be back
tomorrow for community walking which we are happy for anyone to come and take the mic and chat to
us so thank you very much everyone we will call it a night and we will catch you legend tomorrow
take care everybody and thank you so much Thank you.
