Well, well, well, well, is that you behind there? No, I'm trying to join on okay
so I'm trying to join on my personal account and I don't know what it is about my Noah account, but
Twitter is making me I should take a screen share of this
It's making me answer like ten quiz quit capture questions to get into my account and it arbitrarily locks me out
By the way, where's everyone? No one's here. I guess we're not pot
I guess we're not popular anymore now that the bull market is taking off and people are aping in shit coins
But yeah walked out of my account and all it just happens once a month
That's crazy, are you trying different devices? Yeah. Yeah
Well, at least at least your human is here. So I will pretend that your account is here too. How you doing brother?
I'm good. Now. It's I'm back in my account. It says I'm following zero people which is interesting. What?
Twitter I'm doing good. The market's doing good. I
Hope that we continue this upward trend and
Bitcoin sees all-time high
The price discovery period is when I think things are gonna get really interesting. So we're not there yet, but
Hold on but for the audience if you don't mind explaining what you mean by that price discovery
Yeah, basically Bitcoin is not in price discovery yet. Bitcoin's all-time high was 69 K and so
Technically, there are people that are still at a loss on Bitcoin and
I think that there's always going to be resistance when you are creeping back up during a bear market to the previous all-time
high of people either trying to break even
Try and trying trying to short the market for one reason or the other but once it goes to 70 K and beyond
I think that's when people start having FOMO retail investors start having FOMO
People that are holding off on the ETF start having FOMO and the money starts to flood in
We've seen it before when Bitcoin goes into price discovery mode. It it doesn't really stop
Although I will say there was a great and I should have
Pinged Travis for this. I'll paint up paying him in a second
But there's a great interview with pump and Travis Clang
I think his last name is clean and he talks about how
None of this stuff has really found product market fit and I agree with almost everything you said on that podcast because
most of this stuff doesn't do anything and
DeFi summer of 2020 was a lot of fun and FT summer of 2021 was a lot of fun
The summer of 2024 holds what is it gonna be deep in summer of?
2024 when all these decentralized infrastructure projects
I mean deep in is interesting because we've had
Helium and helium's done a an amazing job so far of getting all these hot spots out and and having legitimate network coverage
So they have a tangible use case. I don't
The reason I'm hesitant on helium is because I don't know why
I don't know how they're gonna dethrone juggernauts like AT&T and Verizon
I know they've teamed up with T-Mobile. So if you can't beat them join them
but we'll see they're a great example of they're a great example of a
Deep in project before deep in was even a term. So yeah, I don't know gate was a gaming summer
I mean crypto games are fucking awful. Let's be real
Play well, no, they're fine. They're finally coming into like nifty island. I think is the most
the the dream of web through gaming
And I say that not to not to shit on
alluvium or or or or any of the older, you know actual games that came out but
They were heavily tokenomics
meaning that the the gameplay was almost second to
The the financial aspect of it and the financial aspect of them brewing them right in the long term
If you if you have an unsustainable token, then the rewards aren't there and if you're if you're engagement, right?
like 70% or something like that of the Philippines was was living off of
Alluvium and stuff like that. I can't remember the other one
But I do see that nifty island is kind of that first real strong play at
Tokenomics being an incentive but not the core driving force
So I do still see it as gaming obviously deep in stuff like that
But I want to touch on kind of the difference between having been in this markets and and by the way guys if you're in
The in the audience you want to chat, please come on up
I mean me and Noah could talk forever and doc as well, but love to have larger conversations
It's interesting to see people like doc and I'll go to it a second who are seeing this these waves for the first time and
This version of the wave is a lot more predictable. So it's easy. It's pretty easy to explain
Hey, and we talked about this right ETFs. They're gonna want to show great product price action for their initial holders
So we're probably see a depression in the Bitcoin price
After the ETF so that all this the new ETF holders can see that pump and BlackRock, etc
Looks good in terms of offering this new asset class to its audience
And you know being able to say hey, by the way doc. Yes, Bitcoin will probably double in the next however long and then being
able to see it happen because
The the the foundational pieces aren't that hard to predict right? It's
Basic business, you're launching a new product. You want to be able to make your your clients up make profit
How do you do that? If you own enough of the asset you can depress the price by affecting supply and demand
And vice versa when you want to trigger that to create good return for your for your consumer
Does that hit the mark for you? No, and then I'd love go to doc
Yeah, I think it hits the mark
I'm still I haven't played Nifty Island for example, but I still am in the camp of
People are not playing web3 games because they're good games
People are playing web3 games because they're okay games and they also want that icing on the cake of making money
so the game by aspect is still
Something that people are going after and I think it as long as that's a thing
It's not going to be adopted by by the mainstream. I think it's gonna be within our own little ecosystem doc
Hey guys, good morning. No, nice to hear you with a little verve in your voice after your recent injury. Welcome back
Not sure why Twitter is fucking with you
Word out to all the nerds and the deejans today is something called
Valentine's Day if you have a girl or no of a girl you used to have a mother
Reach out to them and wish him a happy Valentine's Day. You'll thank me for it later
Yeah, especially you we shut to who you know who and and as far as like the comment knows last comment about
About the depressive the ETFs is sort of depressing the price
Micro-managing the market, you know, I don't know if they have that sort of power and influence that sort of weight
Within ETF to move the market that way
It's not like we're talking about Solomon Brothers or Lehman Brothers back in the day
releasing an IPO and having almost absolute control over the flow and and the reach of
Profits prior, you know to them the cashing out
So I'd be interesting to see if with that sort of market manipulation comes into
In the Bitcoin I'd be surprised actually if it did in the way that was it's fidget or nowhere was describing
Honestly Noah, what's the percentage that black rock or the ETFs control now of free-floating?
The coin do know offhand I forget the number but it's a it's a
Substantial amount or not substantial but relatively substantial amount
Yeah, it's a sizable number level to find out
Because Michael sailor himself, I believe just cross like the 1% threshold if I'm not
Doctor while Noah looks it up. There's also an important
difference between dormant Bitcoin or
1% from an active wallet holder is a lot more power than just 1% in general because many many many of the oldest I mean like
Satoshi himself has a shit ton of Bitcoin that will that that hasn't been touched and hopefully never gets touched
Otherwise, we have bigger issues
It hasn't happened in 15 years so
The the point is that that black rock and ill get the number hopefully but they do own enough to
to impact price and over time
Especially back in the day. It was actually an unspoken secret
But like a known unspoken secret that whales controlled the absolute total price and they work together to control the price
We do have a lot more distribution now. So that is harder to do
But that being said we are seeing the largest
Aggregating that we've seen in a while and so I
Would I would flip back to you and say?
We predicted that the price of Bitcoin would go down around the time of ETFs and then it would pump afterwards
based on the premise that
We assume that they did have enough control and that is what happened. So
Go ahead the spot in the spot Bitcoin ETFs as of 21 hours ago
Own about three point five percent of the supply and existence. It's a lot
And so that's a lot of Bitcoin so doc yes more than enough to affect the price
Yeah, that's a lot. Um, yeah, but I but I mean that's just this is spot Bitcoin ETF
I mean, this is Bitcoin. It's not gonna be getting sold
They're buying it so that they can operate to their clients. So I think it's gonna get locked up
I don't know how it works like it's gonna get locked up forever or for a very long time
Um, I don't see them ever selling it. So what happens? I
I actually don't know how it works
So are they when they buy the the Bitcoin or when they when they Alec?
When they acquire it OTC or whatever does it pump the price because if it pumps the price when they buy it then
Would it pump the price again when their clients buy it from them? I'm a little no
I don't think so again. I'm not an expert here. Yeah
But my understanding is that the requirements in the ETF filing so that they put that they always have enough Bitcoin obviously on hand much like a
stable coin to to match the
Think that I don't think that means that when you buy I wish we had set here
I don't think would you mind I'll shoot him an invite real quick
I don't think that it affects actually Caesar's down there below. Let me send you an invite. I'd love to hear your thoughts
Yeah, it's some no shows today. I'm telling you man
It's it's that this is how I know that people are starting to get bullish because it's harder to get people on spaces
Why I mean I woke up this morning to digital sending me some DJ and shit, but apart from digital I was getting
K well messages these K well opportunities are interesting as well. So people are people are quite busy. It seems
It's been a while by the way, this is my first time as a I guess a quote-unquote KOL in a bowl
I've actually just passed 25 25 K the other day, which is a cool feeling
Cuz I hate social media, but it didn't feel good. I'll be honest with you
but yeah, the the the market the way the market changes during a bowl is pretty
And we're not even full bowl yet, but the KOL stuff has been super interesting Caesar. How you doing brother?
Hey, what's up, digital? What's up guys? Hey, what's up Caesar?
What do you know the it's all chatting about this morning
we were talking about the the functional structure of ETFs and if
Does their customers buying the ETF changed is that a change in in the Bitcoin purchase ie?
Effects price or is that price is is does it all occur at the initial purchase of the Bitcoin by the ETF?
Yeah, not really my area of expertise man
But what I've heard is I think it's the I think it's the latter of the two
But yeah again, it's just what I've heard. I'm not not the expert on that
None of this is financial advice by the way, like especially
The point of this space what I wanted to talk about was
And no, I want to talk specifically with you because of your your
a good way less mainstream, but by definition kind of more mainstream awareness of the different ecosystems and
Talking about the pros and cons of different ecosystems
And then kind of thinking about that an application to where you sell where decide to build
So I'd love to talk about if you're still there know what your what your favorite ecosystems are if you were building and why
And then kind of knock into it. I've chosen to build on a new L1 called rails
Because they have been supporting me dramatically I like their ethos their ethos is
It's also known as steam exchange. I posted my my partnership up top
They they vet they do AML and KYC for any person building on the chain or operating a node
So if someone does rug you would know who they are
If it was well, you wouldn't but the the chain founders would and be able to provide that information if if necessary
And I think that's a really cool approach. It's gonna be interesting to see how that how that impacts builders coming into the space
That's kind of a decision. I've made so Noah. What what are your favorite ecosystems and why?
I think it depends. I think it depends on
What your goals are so if you're a meme token, then it's kind of
Refutable at the moment to go with Solana because it that's where all the meme tokens from what I understand
Or what I'm seeing in the groups that I'm in are popping off
There's a lot of the audience there as well. They're very gambling
Gambling oriented audience. Everyone seems to be just aping different shit and cat coins and dog coins and shit coins and
whatnot, I think if you're building a defy application or
yeah, if you're building some sort of a solution and
You don't want to expose your
community to the gas fees of aetherium
then arbitrum is the next best choice and
the reason I say that is because of
Arbitrum has positioned themselves as a layer to that is
Attracting builders. You don't see a lot of huge arbitrum shills on cryptos
What are the way you do with avalanche or with Solana?
Fidgey you shelled me a token this morning and
How dare you I probably would have I'm not gonna say anything more than that
I probably would have bought it on the spot if I had liquidity on the chain that it was on but I didn't and
I saw it as kind of a headache to bridge at the moment
So I just but if it was an arbitrum, for example, I would have quickly bought it because I have liquidity there
There's two things. Well, you have to
And then who's your who's your audience? Who's your community?
Obviously if you're targeting whales and whales don't care about aetherium fees, that's where all the liquidity is or most liquidity is so
Yeah, that's what I think the EVM first mover advantage is something that that people are underestimating in a lot of circles
Yeah, it's definitely a you're doing a balance and I'm learning this right now
I'm actually learning alongside the community the difference of an existing community the type of product you're building
The type of the existing community and the friction of bringing new users into your ecosystem
The existing community or the community you're trying to create and I think you hit the nail on the head Noah
And we'll go to you in a second Caesar. I
was on the same token that I mentioned to you I tried to help a couple friends and I
Was on probably five different phone calls trying to help them swap figure out which token it was was it wrapped this not wrapped
which which liquidity pool which which decks and yeah, definitely a
surprisingly complicated even for people that that I
Consider and they consider themselves pretty sophisticated in the market. So that friction is
Massive I'm talking with a company that that allows for credit card purchasing and
Building in this native token for swaps. So I think that's gonna hopefully help for
Yeah, and and I think we're getting there right a year ago. I
wasn't comfortable using any of these cross cross chain bridges because of all the hacks and
Siloed liquidity issue was major because you had to go through a centralized exchange
You have to deposit into a centralized exchange and then withdraw to the chain that you want from a centralized exchange
Or you could use I mean there was some
Excuse me, there were some bridges that existed but you had like eth to avalanche or eth to polygon
But hey, what if I want to go from polygon to avalanche?
Well, I need to go from polygon to eth and then from eth back to avalanche
And so I think a lot of these bridges have solved that and I think the next step is
the solution to my problem today, which was um, I
you know Fidgey's telling me to buy the shit coin and I
you know, I don't buy it because I don't feel like even bridging from
Arbitrum to polygon or from poly great. I don't even want to do that because even to me that's friction
I'm doing ten things at once. I don't have time
but if I could go to my my Rabi wallet or my metamask and
Just choose the token that Fidgetl is telling me to buy on
On the chain that it's on and then swap directly in my wallet
So swap from USDT to arbitrum
Sorry USDT on arbitrum to shit coin on polygon and do it in one transaction
and I know that there's solutions that are working on that, but I think that is kind of the next step to
Approach when it comes to how the user interfaces with with everyday crypto
I don't I don't think the chains are gonna matter as much in the next two years
Yeah, I don't think it's gonna matter as much in the next few years
Can you believe we're not there yet though?
Like it's funny because a year ago it would be like can you imagine can you believe we can't buy it with credit card?
Now we're there. So I think we'll get there sooner than we think and it'll be
It'll be a past thought when it happens. So before we go to Caesar
I mean, I think I think part of the reason we're not I think it exists
But the as someone who's not a developer and doesn't understand how these things work from from a nuts and bolts
I'll be truly nuts and bolts perspective. I
still know enough to know that because of the nature of how
Secure these things have to be which is again why we had these bridge hacks these insane bridge hacks in 2022 and I think
was the Ronin well, I think the Ronin one was also in 2022, but I
Can only imagine that it would be even more
Complicated to build something that not just bridges but swaps at the same time in the same transaction
So I don't think that we don't wait. So Noah, what do you what? What are your thoughts?
What are your thoughts? I used a product called change now. I uh, not a sponsor. Yeah something I used
Yeah, and I wasn't swapping. I literally sent that money and they sent me back the other token. Yeah instantly
Yeah, so we have something there's um
There's fixed float as well. Those things those have existed for a while
Like I actually I bought ripple in 2017 by using one of those. What was it? I think it was shape shift or something
But the problem with those is it's not it doesn't let me
Telling me about this shit coin. It doesn't let me from I'm still trusting a third party
You're really you're really harping on this. Well, I think it's a great example
it's a great example because I literally wanted to buy I told myself the next shit coin because by the way fidget oil is
Shit coins ever in this in our entire friendship and the first one he showed me did a 10x and I didn't buy it
And I was pissed so I told myself I was gonna buy the next one
so so yeah, but but that's cuz I'm never gonna show anything that I don't have a
Don't I'm not I'm not a degenerate fucking regardless what Doc might say. I'm not a degenerate shit-coiner. I'll only
at least for me similar confidence in terms of
reasonings why it should succeed
Because I don't want egg on my face
I don't want to suggest a token that's gonna go down like what why the fuck do I need that? I'm not a I
Don't have 300,000 followers and and shelter living. So yeah, yeah, so
The teary teary question. Yeah with those services already exists
Like if I want a USDT on Arbitrum, but I only have Ethan Polygon
Then I can send them Ethan Polygon and they send me USDT on Arbitrum. That's fine, but it it's not efficient
It's not efficient the way that me being able to open my I still need to trust this third party
And I don't know who the fuck they are
And I mean, I know who the fuck they are, right? I'm comfortable using fixed float
This is not a fixed float chill, but they've been around forever
But again, it's still I still need to go through that process supposed to just opening my metamask
Selecting the tokens I want and hitting one button and then going about my day. It's it's a workflow
For me to work on it is kind of spooky. It is kind of spooky, right? It's basically send me money. Trust me, bro
You can't really get like a price you can't get your price what you want going to change now
You got to do it and then wait 30 minutes depending on the chain you use. So it's like
Yeah, no exactly so um and and that would be interesting right and that that would make me wonder well
Does it even matter at a certain point unless you're doing something on aetherium does it really matter what chain you're on even now
when I bridge you can bridge to aetherium for
from BSC, for example, and
And you can use a number of solutions and you can actually pay the gas in BS
In finance soaking as opposed to paying it in ETH if you don't have ETH on that on that chain
Rabi wallet allows you to do something called and I'm sure it's not the only one called the gas top-off
So if you have gas on on ETH, for example
But you have nothing on polygon and digital tells you to buy a shit coin on polygon
But you have no gas on polygon. You can actually use a gas top-up
Convert your ETH into Matic
On that chain, so there's a lot of really cool solutions coming up. I'm gonna I'm gonna do a Rabi wallet
Not an unpaid advertisement because I would love if they paid me to advertise them. I could it's one of the first
Crypto wallets that I'm obsessed with actually. Yeah, it's the only crypto wallet that I'm actually really obsessed with. I love brave
I think brave Braves wallet in their browser is really good
But but they've had been some like you it's not user-friendly
so I can work around it and I love their privacy policies, but
It's it's clunky and they have a lot of work to do from a UI perspective
Rabi wallet is amazing from the interface to the security functions
They have in there to kind of the the additional features like a gas top-off
The it's by D Bank by the way
And I love D Bank and acting the audience also loves the bank who were big D Bank fans D Bank if you want to sponsor us
I would be very happy not that they're listening, but we'll see
But and by the way like this just a testament to the way that we hold spaces here
No one showed up today. I could this is me and fidget hole on a phone call just shooting the shit
I could literally talk to fidget about this stuff for the next two hours and that could be the whole space and people can go
Listen do it if they want Caesar go ahead
Those are honestly the best kind of spaces at least in my opinion. I feel like when the when they're overly structured and overly
Scripted I don't know you people can just sense that they're not as organic like some of my favorite spaces and the favorite
You know quote-unquote crews that I've met
In this space have been just people who kind of just log in and hang out every morning
In a lot of ways and just have conversations about what's happening. So I
think you guys both hit on on what I wanted to kind of add to this conversation, which was
Yes, there's an element of
Where you should build based on the product that that you have in mind
But there's also there's a lot to be said about
You know build it and they will come
An example I would say is you know, look at what some of these new
Ecosystems that that right now are getting a lot of traction because people are doing the whole farming
For airdrops right that that in itself the speculation
That comes from a new ecosystem and the amount of volume that it can attract and users
All of that just based on speculation that hey, it's brand new. I want to have a first mover advantage
I want to potentially position myself
To benefit from future airdrop considerations
Even in NFTs, right? I want to have some of the the first NFTs to launch on that ecosystem because in the past
Sometimes those og collections they age pretty well, right? They they they hold up. So yeah, it's interesting
I mean, it's such a dynamic space. I don't know that there's a
Kind of like a cover all, you know one one size fits all type answer
I love that you guys kind of touched on why is it something that you're just is that a meme coin versus that?
Are you building a solution? You know if you're building solutions, you obviously want to look at
Where are there gaps in ecosystems where there's not the right tools available the right services available?
Like there's there's a bunch of things to consider, right?
I mean that I feel like the more I spend time in crypto and web 3 and I
just it feels to me and maybe I'm just
Understanding it wrong, but it just really feels to me like if you've got a solid idea and you're building something of value
People will take the time to learn how to bridge over to wherever the hell you're building
I mean, they'll they'll figure it out. They'll learn the process and sure maybe it affects your
ability to scale a little bit or the speed at which you scale but
in the end if it's good enough, I feel like people will come so it's really the
Responsibility it goes back to the project founders and the team behind it to just build enough substance, you know
Agreed Chuckie, please if you want to speak raise it raise your hand and please call me up
I just muted it. No, we're
If you want to be like that if you'd like to talk, okay cool
I actually I'm happy that vector showed up for this space
I was specifically looking forward to speaking with him
He touched on was actually part of the impetus for this space title. He talked about how he has gotten support and I know vector
personally, we've had calls and
He went ahead and did the right thing in the space which is build before you take money from from the public, right?
the most legal way to do this
Arguably and also the most likely to succeed and because he did that
He's had the choice to choose which ecosystem he's building in and that's a balance of support whether it be money or otherwise
And then all these things we're talking about in terms of is it EVM?
friction for onboarding existing community
In his case, I believe I remember correctly. This is a an older existing chain
so what does that mean for an ecosystem and what does that mean for a product and
So vector, I'd love to go to you in terms of kind of a brief
insight into that process
What were you looking at along the way?
When did you start looking for?
You know chain decision and support and what led you to where you've you've made your current decision and run. I'd love to hear that
Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me up man. And yeah, I totally appreciate it because you know, I've been building this for about a year now
And it's been the kind of thing where well, first of all, we're completely chain agnostic in that regard
And this is just so we have an EVM array
So like all because it was like a new EVM chain every day
So like instead of thank you know thinking about like, you know picking a chain when for specifically our platform
That's not really the point. Our point is to be a discovery for web3 and for like, you know
Blockchains in general, so we're not trying to pick a singular chain to be on and work with however the chains that we do pick
You know whether it's for infrastructure or for pay
and it's basically kind of like who will work with us in that regard, you know, because
We're building everything out. So we can be very flexible in our rollout and
At that point that it's just like
What's going to facilitate the most competitive rollout? What's going to you know, get the most attention
what's going to make it the most, you know frictionless and fun and free for people to kind of engage in the platform and
You know, we got really lucky by being able to kind of a halomie and it's nothing's nothing sick settled or anything like that
but you know, I was introduced to scale chain and
They from on the if I'm a very good friend of mine and they you know
Reach that right back to us and I showed them the platform and what what our intentions were and you know
Chains are very interested in a couple things really just like your user amount
You have the volume and then the transactions that's really all they want to see
So when you show them something that has you know, a high potential for all of that
They're pretty much, you know, it's kind of a go and then it's like, you know
Like I guess a milestone based releases of funds
So as you you know raise your transaction count raise your user base and raise your volume
They release more funds which for us works great because then it's like it almost it's like hand. It's like hand in hand
That's great. I don't care. Like as we get more people we get more users. They access the platform
They're paying us to use the platform. They're getting access to the airdrops
It's a great funnel and everybody wins and I don't have to hurt my you know, my community and and and that in vector
I think it's what's really important to identify is two things that that were subtly said but not said in that statement one
Where you deploy your chain where you deploy your contracts with chain you decide doesn't pigeonhole you into what
Transactability you can have on your platform and that's really the difference, right?
Vector I'm pretty sure it's not launching his product on eight ten different chains
He's not replicating the contract on eight ten different chains, but he's integrating the the the financial
Fluidity of being able to process different tokens regardless of what chains it's built on is that correct Victor?
Absolutely, and you know as far as building in exactly stuff, you know
That's going to be change per chain basis based upon what they're providing on an infrastructure level because every chain has its own thing
And then vector the second piece the second piece just before I forget was
To identify the type of product you're launching right? You're not trying to sell out an NFT project
So when you're looking at your audience, you're well
I don't know if you are aren't but I know that your product isn't like your average PFP mint
So you're not you need to be able to understand your audience properly in terms of how you like
He doesn't need to sell out immediately
He doesn't need to to to get 5 million eyeballs
He has milestones and he has a product to launch responsibly like any product that you're launching and so
The things that you're thinking about are different depending on the project you're doing right if you're doing a meme corner
You're doing an NFT PFP projects. Yes, you need
You need liquidity at the ready and you need the community for that type of product sale
When you're dealing with products like vector is you're dealing with different issues and things like friction are much bigger hurdles
So I'm sorry to cut you off vector, but I'd love to hear more about the process
That's amazing because you really kind of just set it up for just a reason as to why you know
Even though it's like very serendipitous in the kind of sense of like, you know providing capital. That's great
But then on the one on the other hand, they also have this very awesome kind of just like technology
that's providing like, you know a gasless experience for my users and now I've been I've gotten a lot of like kickback for that like
you know people like well to in in regards to like, you know the chain and its value and its function and I'm just like
I that doesn't really that's good
I'm bringing value to the chain the chain in and of itself is
Technology that's meant to be used me using it is what gives it its validity and what will give it its value over time
Because now it's allowed to compete in the in the ecosystem of chains and show and show it's worth inside instead of just being you know
transactional medium of just spending and buying and appreciation and depreciation
Now it's like oh wait, I have the choice of using this token for its specific to specific technology, which is being gasless
So that means that when I go to use it
I don't have to pay any gas to get it anything like that
I can bring it to the central exchange ghastly switch it to whatever check currency. I do want to switch it to
Gaslessly and then bring it out and then when guess what guess when I experienced gas when I'm not using that chain anymore
And so now I have this psychological experience
Experiential experience right here of me now the only time I lost out was when I wasn't using that chain
And so that allows them to give them their competitive like, you know value proposition in action
And so that's the value that I have for them
And the value that they have for me is me allowing to reward my users and all the other things in a gaseous manner
And the cool thing is and welcome Andrew. Thanks for joining dude. And thanks for
Thanks for liking my my post where I gratuitously tagged you announcing
You're the only person like uh, I
But vector, I think I think it goes back to the same thing, right?
I think it's a really interesting time where you have all these L ones and L twos and there's different marketing budgets and EVM non EVM
Is a specific purpose, but there is a really interesting alignment, right?
if what Noah and I were saying and I believe everybody believes which is that friction between chains will be a thing of the past then
Now we're focusing on things where I hear people all the time
I'm gonna have I'm never gonna build on polygon. Of course, they're like, you know, they've they've built one or two
DeFi things that that scanned a bunch of people into some Ponzi and now they think they're special and they're never gonna build on
Polygon because they don't call them back
Right and and to be fair I've been dealing with polygon. I'm also a partner with polygon
I've been dealing with polygon for five years
That doesn't surprise me they just don't call you back. That's how polygon works. It's also a 16 billion dollar company
So it's like saying why isn't Tim Cook calling me back shut the fuck up, right?
But with I thought they'd get more smiles, but with smaller chains
You don't get my most important. I smiled. I smiled
But just for a moment the hubris in this space right like oh the CEO doesn't call you back
But excuse me, like who the fuck are you go?
go spend a billion dollars on zke VM technology and then
He might you know, you might still be a douche
but to think that for some reason because you bought some of the tokens or you own some of the NFTs or you want to
Deploy a product in the company that has Starbucks and they're not responding to you. Nothing personal go fuck yourself
But that doesn't that doesn't deny the fact that there is benefit in having like factor
I'm sure you're speaking directly with them. In fact, I know bigger projects and this will be funny as I go to Andrew
That is are leaving polygon because they can speak directly to the CEO of arbitrum via text and and and that does go a long
Way, so it's an interesting dichotomy Andrew. Welcome brother. We're talking about decision-making of
so I've been in very many
decision-making meetings for projects like I can talk a little high level and then I'll get into kind of my thoughts I think
What I found with a lot of founders and this goes back to probably about a year ago is
A lot of folks are making decisions based on grants and funding, right?
So for a lot of first-time founders, I think it's you know, do I want to raise from a BC and dilute my equity?
Do I even have those relationships? Are they gonna pay attention to me?
And so what I what I found in general was a lot of projects were effectively shopping around right?
It was you know, hey polygon. What kind of grant are you gonna give us?
You know, hey a backs what kind of grant are you gonna give us? Hey arbitrum?
What kind of grant are you gonna give us and when I was at arbitrum, we weren't doing grants
And so I think what I was what I was hearing from projects was, you know for folks that didn't build on us
They would say I'm aware your technology is superior
But I need this initial capital to kind of ramp up and then what I will probably end up doing is
I want to use that grant money to accelerate the development of their product or their business and
Then once they're at a certain point
Then they start to multi-chain where they believe their target community lives or where they believe they're gonna get the right resources things
Like that. So so I just want to call that out and then going back to kind of what you were talking about for a second
Like I like to call this customer obsession and this was like a big thing at Amazon was you know
You always want to have a customer mindset or a user mindset, right in everything you do
Andrew can I cut you off it for one second just before I lose my thought?
Is there is there something to be said about so you said that sometimes people go you said that they're not bullish on I would
Say that maybe the ecosystem is you know, not as developed as other ecosystems yet
But what about the idea of having multiple partnerships?
with different chains and ecosystems that you're integrating into
Kind of a unified community. Yeah, and and then if and benefiting from that larger community
To the the newer community of the lesser-known quote-unquote less bullish
Chain and and and kind of combining and really
Respecting this omni-chain approach where we stopped thinking about things being different by definition of where the contract was deployed
Yeah, I mean the challenge. Yeah, I don't disagree with you
I think the challenge you have is like you still have a lot of maxis and you still have a lot of tribalism in
The industry and so, you know
It's just tricky because there's a lot of folks who are effectively they're like I found my home. This is where I live
This is where I do my like all my activity. This is my biggest bag
I do think I'm starting to see more and more folks shift towards like a profit maxi mentality
Like like one of the things that's been interesting for me is to see a lot of arbitrum, you know maxis
Start to actually trade on Solana, right? Because again, like there's a lot of you know D gen type trades to make there
There's a lot of you know airdrops launching there
So I think again like you're gonna see community members start to multi-chain themselves
But but I would argue I think in the early stages like
You are buying in a little bit of this notion of this is the customer base
That's there that I can tap into from day one to drive initial adoption. And I think the challenge becomes
I'll give you like a weird example. So like take injective which is effectively like a purpose-built blockchain for finance, right?
Let's say your art blocks and you're building this project, you know, yes, you could launch there and yes
You could argue. Oh, well, we're gonna bring art to
Injective but the challenge there is that existing user base that that is easier to convert because they're already on that chain
It may not align with their interests or it may not align with their segmentation and as a result, you know, you're launching something
It's a good press piece for the chain
But it's really not gonna move the needle in terms of your project if that makes sense
Yeah, no completely and that's a dance right exactly exactly and then and then going up to this customer obsession thing
like it's really funny because
When I was that arbitrary, I'm like I was very focused on this notion of like we need to have what's called white glove customer service
Meeting like we replied to you know projects very quickly, you know, it's always a yes and
And and what I did hear funny enough from a lot of these projects that were, you know
Effectively multichaining from other other other chains was kind of exactly what you're saying
It's like we can't get a call back from them
We can't get a message back from them
Like like basically that they didn't feel as though the project was customer obsessed and they were the customer, right?
And so we did get a lot of projects that came to us because they were like
You're just so much easier to work with and and more supportive of our growth and my argument is well
Because your growth is gonna trickle down and benefit us right so so think of me as like the CMO of the ecosystem
Not the CMO of the blockchain and I think that's how you have to approach it as a project
Because again their success is your success
and then the other thing I would bring up around this white glove notion is
I don't think folks fully understand what it means to partner with a web 2 company, right because you know
Web 2 is used to having significant external support structures
Like it's not uncommon, you know at an ad product companies or agencies or whatever to have large-scale fully dedicated teams
Right, and so if you're gonna go out and broker a giant deal with Disney, you know
You need to align with those expectations and they have an expectation that you're gonna have, you know
Tiger team fully servicing them at all times
And so that that's the other thing is I think when I see a lot of these big web 2 partnership announcements
I get very nervous because I'm like I know what these back-end teams look like and I'm not sure that they're building or scaling
Them in a way that can properly support those businesses and then as you know, it's like first impressions matter, you know
Amazon partners with someone, you know, it's a lackluster experience and then they maybe take a step back and go
Yeah, maybe we'll wait another year to really approach the space
So so there's that and then and then the other thing I was gonna say is like when you're picking a chain in my opinion
Or excuse me going back to the chains for a second
I think one of the like the biggest mistakes that I'm seeing is everybody wants to be the everything chain
Right and and I do think certain chains have emerged as like leaders in various sectors of crypto
And for me if I'm at a chain and I'm seeing oh my god
We're owning DeFi right now or oh my god. We're owning NFTs right now, you know
I'm saying to myself there is a clear product market fit, you know
Between what's being built on our chain and who is who is active on our chain
I'm gonna double down on that sector and really try to own that sector and and and instead what I see is
Folks saying okay. We you know, we have a huge user base in this area. Now, let's go after gaming now
Let's go after this and and again, I do think and I've said this before
Some of these kind of everything chains will start to pivot into more purposeful blockchains because again like for me
I would rather own an entire valuable sector
Then the pieces of all the other sectors that everybody's competing for at all times, you know
Blue ocean green ocean red ocean. Yes, this is a apparently business is
Kind of similar in any in any area or industry you're in
I'd love to hear Andrew just because we're chatting and I know vector your hand up but just before we go to you
What what so let's assume that?
Evolution is evolution, right? So let's assume that your thesis is not just correct, but is inevitable
How do you see each kind of pick a couple of the top ecosystems and where do you think those land?
Like where does our gym land? Obviously, it's DeFi now. Yeah, so DeFi polygon
Yeah, so I think like just high level if I look at it
I you know, I think I talked about this in a previous episode, but like definitely DeFi for arbitrum
Let's talk base for a second. So, you know, you have base that's effectively built by a publicly traded company, right?
So again, if I am a large-scale web to business
Especially one that's that's a very risk adverse. There's a good chance. I'm looking at that purely as a way to mitigate potential risk
Right. So I do think you're gonna see a lot of you know, large-scale traditional businesses
Experimenting or building on base and then Solana is a really interesting one because again
It doesn't even have to be the specific use case, but I really think with Solana
What they've done is built this very meaningful Gen Z, you know young millennial audience
And so again, if I'm a brand that's focused on that demographic, there's a good chance I might pick that chain, right?
So if I'm Nike or Adidas or someone like that
I probably even if base is a great option for me because of what I discuss
I'm probably gonna go to Solana because I'm like number one normie friendly and number two the existing quote unquote user base on that
Chain is a line from a demographic standpoint with the purchasers of my product in the in the real world
So I must read myself I couldn't agree more right and that again is the balance trade-off
Analysis and I think it comes down to friction, right? So friction is taken out of the out of the conversation and and
The token or the chain that you're operating on gets obfuscated to you know
Certain degree right which is where we all believe this is going
Then the question then becomes how much effort do you want to do you want to put into essentially?
Driving people to the ecosystem or changing the people in that ecosystem already
My question would be and then I will go to you vector which one do you think becomes the gaming chain?
But that was that was before the prominence. I'm just being honest, right?
It was the most natural L2 transaction layer for for aetherium. Obviously, they're gonna say arbitrum
And I think obviously this does hinge on the swap time
From aetherium to polygon, but for some reason I always thought that that was the the inevitability. Yes, Andrew. I
Have I have a hypothesis. So the two
Yeah, the two chains I look at from a gaming perspective and and I want to separate arbitrum because
I'm a huge treasured out fan
I'm a huge believer but like they're very different right like they're they're kind of the pioneers of game fight
And yes, I do think some of this stuff will pivot more towards traditional gaming
So I just I use that as kind of like a caveat asterisk to the side
But I think the two that I keep a close eye on or Avax and sweet and I'll tell you why so with Avax
You have to look at shrapnel you have to look at the quality of the game
You have to look at the quality of the team and you have to look at the potential impact of like an influencer founder
I look at that project as something that could effectively break through to kind of traditional gamers and normies, right?
And then again, don't discredit the value of that word-of-mouth marketing and the ripple effect of it, right?
And so what I could see is again
It's avalanche really and I think they're doing this a little bit really position themselves as a gaming chain
Has a huge breakout success with shrapnel what that's gonna
Do is it's gonna bring in more games because they're like we want to tap into that existing shrapnel, you know user base
Right and then you're just gonna continue to have that trickle down effect
So so there's part of you that thinks you know avalanche could have a good win there
The other one that I look at is sweet and the reason I bring it up is because
When they first launched and most of us didn't see it
Most of their positioning in a pack was was around being a gaming chain or like a gaming purpose chain, right?
And so when I was in in Tokyo, you know
I met a lot of gaming founders and I would ask them, you know
What's your background where do you come from and a lot of these guys were coming from places like Nintendo or Sega or things?
Like that and even the governments over there, especially in Japan
We're pushing those entities themselves to get more aggressive in crypto and web 3 because they're like this is a great
You know revenue opportunity for our country. This is a great job creation opportunity for our country
So a lot of folks that I talked to in Asia and asked them like where are you building this game?
They told me sweet. So so again, you may have more than one
But I think those are the two right now that stand out to me obviously Ronan, you know already has some success and things like that
So that's another one to keep an eye on but but I would say a Vax and sweet are the two that I keep
Probably the closest I am from a gaming perspective
Interesting and in terms of and I asked this as a novice
in terms of the the fluidity between
So I always see the core that the base assets being on each I have
For a while and then the transaction layer being on some form of an L2
fluidity in transactability
Know suey obviously doesn't suey's not EVM. Correct?
Essentially fighting aetherium for the base layer value assets. Don't you think that has a potential large impact in?
In adoption and deployment. I don't know. I mean, I think you know again if you look at things like axilar wormhole
Layer zero, I mean, you know clearly inner. I mean I've been bullish on interrupt for a while, but clearly interop is going to
Accelerate this year. And so I do think again like the friction between moving between chains will start to go down
You know things like that
It's hard for me to say because again like I understand there's a lot of liquidity on aetherium
But it makes no sense to build a game on aetherium because every single interaction in the game that processes a transaction
You know you might as well just subscribe to like a high-end gaming service because your gas fees are gonna add up in a huge way
Right so so that's why like for example. I like treasure because again. They were smart enough to say hey
You know we know maybe this isn't the popular opinion
But we're gonna build our entire game on a layer two and then that way when I'm playing those games
Yeah, I'm still paying you know cents on the dollar for every interaction
But like I can play ten games
You know for the same price maybe of what I would pay to play one game on aetherium every month and then the other thing
I think that's challenging from like a gaming product perspective is if you build a game on aetherium
And then your players are racking up. You know high gas fees just to play the game
There's gonna be an expectation of value return, and then again you as a game start to say okay
Well, we've got it in a sense
You know reimburse or incentivize folks beyond their gas, and it gets it gets really challenging and really expensive quickly
So so to me like it makes more sense to build games on layer twos or all ones
And it does directly on aetherium
And then the other thing just to bring up is this notion of like you know app chains or layer threes
And you're definitely gonna see it like like I remember when I was at arbitrum
I used to always say like the perfect use case is is you go labs right because you look at what happened with
You know gas fees on some of their drops and things like that
But again like you get having its own chain would make sense because again if you're if you're betting on
You know millions of players engaging and impacting the gas on your chain and things like that
You know by by launching a layer three or adapt chain like you have a lot more control over that because
Let's say all of a sudden
You know there's a surge in a social phi app that all of a sudden is driving gas fees higher for everyone on the layer
Well, you're no longer dealing with that to the same extent because again you can control the gas usage on your own chain
Completely I think I think we're kind of been addressing a more interesting
Probably unintended conundrum which is eth has been the primary so
Maybe there's two forms of gaming that that that really persist
And I guess this does make sense is ones where you are wearing your your identity right and again most NFTs
Have been launched on aetherium
So they are aetherium NFTs period right and I think obviously we get into more interesting solutions when
Imagine if there are platforms that allow you to lease out your IP and then create new assets and have those new assets beyond
different chains, but at the core
Yes, I built that and you know that
If you don't have a sufficient NFT community
Yeah, right or the dominant NFT community then you're not gonna be able to stand up your identities in the gaming ecosystem
Which makes you question? Yeah, what is web 3 about them?
Which is is just the ability to earn tokens and and then just gaming's where you're not using your identity, right?
Yeah, I mean there's kind of two things I call out like one is
Here's the challenge that I have with aetherium like
Let's let's let's use a game as an example, right?
So let's say hypothetically you're getting a PFP that effectively
Unlocks your ability to play the game or it, you know unlocks a specific player tied to the IP of NFT, right?
Like a Nakamega or something. Yeah, exactly, right? So then it's all good right now, right?
But then fast forward what's gonna happen is, you know
These gas prices surge then folks get into this cost-benefit dilemma of whether or not they even want to play the game
And then I think where it gets even more problematic is is let's fast forward five ten years
You know this project has continued to accelerate and grow and expand into new places
Like I think forgotten runes is doing some really interesting stuff right now
In terms of like mainstream media and IP and all that and then fast forward. I'm like, oh my god
I bought you know this character for three hundred dollars. It's now worth ten thousand dollars
And then I am you know down to sell it take profit
But then the gas fees ripping into 30% of my profit. That's not a good experience, right?
And so I still believe that like the right home for these things is all ones or layer twos
And another example is like and this is kind of going back to what I was talking about with with Andrew
Can I push can I push back? Yeah. Yeah, go for it
Believe yeah, especially with six five five ones or versions thereof that
The value accrual that we haven't really seen yet because we haven't really seen web three games. Yeah
Effectively launched as again as I mentioned earlier you weren't here
There's two different kinds of web three games in my mind or maybe three there is idle games
Which has no connection to either of the two I'm gonna mention. Yeah, and then the two is
Playing a game for the tokenomics
So for the money part or playing a game for the game that happens to have the money part which is
That's that is the holy grail. Yeah, the holy grail is that is that the is that tokenomics are real tokenomics
You're playing the game because you like the game of the tokenomics is the benefit in terms of driving actions and and
Creating a natural incentive model. Yeah
We start to create our identity right and we're we're and look at Franklin is bored as a perfect example
I wore his fucking ape after he sold it and I got so much shit
I'd like constantly say I didn't buy I couldn't even change it because I I got my premium bullshit stuff
But I got like it was uncomfortable to be honest with you, right?
And if you look at books as ape that just sold right
My boy Joker just posted something like a hateful
But we are seeing value accrual to PFP start right now on a social level and obviously we'll see that on a financial
So as you as your NFTs create more value as your digital identity as an asset you take into gaming
then maybe a $30 gas fee doesn't make that much of a difference if
If you're dealing with the chain that's focused on
Quality and value. Yeah, rather than speed and cost of token
So yes, I agree cost and speed of token
It might be the driving force now when we haven't built these accrued identities and value
Yeah, but I see a future where it thirty bucks is a joke in terms of sending it. Yeah
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't disagree with you
I mean, I think it's it's really just a question of like I mean a theorem was built for a purpose
Which was you know effectively to be the base layer?
And so I just I worry about folks that are building consumer centric dApps directly on aetherium
I think again, it's it's fine for right now capture some of that activity and and and liquidity
But I think long term I do believe that most consumers will be interacting with dApps on layer twos layer threes are all ones
And then the only other thing I was gonna call out was like just kind of going back to what we're talking about
Is this interop conversation, right? So so like for example, I have a little pudgy and I also have a come by Panda and
And both of those like right now the little pudgy I can cross chain that
Two other chains, right? So if I want to have it live on Solana, I can do that, right?
So that that's another great example of like customer obsession
like allow your IP to move to where that community member lives versus being forced in a certain location and
Then and then with come by pandas right now
They have aetherium and they have Solana
But I think there's been a lot of speculation that like because of the layer zero partnership, you know similar type of thing
You'll be able to bridge those two different chains
And so I think that that's interesting because then effectively what you can do is you can tap into communities
More easily regardless of where you're built because you're saying well these assets can live wherever you want to live
Which again is a good example of customer obsession, you know
And what's interesting there is it's starting to look at the asset for the value of usage versus the value of price
and I think that's a really really great place to be because that kind of
encompasses what we're talking about, which is your asset if the difference between EVM being EVM or non EVM is
Using something like later zero and being able to to float in between
Again, if price isn't your number one focus, but usage which of course in the future drives value and value meets
Usage ie utility. I think that's a great outcome. So interesting stuff, too
I've been putting a lot of thought into this recently and I'm actually living it. So it's interesting going through the
Motions we had vector up here before kind of going through similar things. No, are you there?
Thoughts I know you don't you don't build you stack and you're building a different kind of business but
thoughts on the the conversation thoughts on where you where you
That's what I'm looking for put your flag
Where I put my flag on what which which which component that Andrew was highlighting specifically. Oh
The expectations of essentially I think the core question is where do you think the gaming layer or which chain?
Do you think becomes the gaming? Yeah, I mean
There's a mutable there's beam there. I don't know poly its polygons it but it could be I
Think it's still kind of soon. I think it's soon and I the avalanche subnet narrative is one that you can also
use the use case because I
Played shrapnel and I played it at consensus and it is a it is a smooth
FPS I I've played a lot of FPS is growing up and shrapnel was indistinguishable from anything else. I
What about shrapnel is gonna on board people that love to play Call of Duty, I don't know
Again, this is what I was saying earlier in the space. I I don't know I
Don't know how you're gonna on board mainstream gamers yet because again a lot of these a
lot of these web 3 games still seem to be focusing on the monetary the
Potential for monetary gain when I when I see the myriad shells for example on Twitter
Another token token shows on Twitter. I kind of wonder well
I mean is the game even get to play or people just trying to make money
But yeah a back subnets defy kingdoms was the first to do it and in shrapnel is obviously a much
Much more developed game with better graphics. So
Let's see. I don't know if there's gonna be one
Chain there's gonna be one layer that just captures all the games. But yeah immutable beam
Polygon will throw it in there a vax and maybe something new maybe something much newer and much faster Solana
Here's the thing with Solana though, you know, we talked about this last week. I
used to be a an avid gamer and if my you know if before the Warcraft went down for
Five hours, I was gonna be throwing a nerd nerd fit nerd nerd rage, whatever you call it
So I don't know how it's gonna work with Solana's outages and and just it going out for five hours and people being in the
Middle of playing a game and then they can't do anything about it for for that long
So I think until Solana solves the to me Solana has great tech when it doesn't go out
But I think that the outage thing is a big problem. It has an amazing community and I think that you cannot
You cannot underestimate the value of how important
Having a strong community is the tech doesn't matter if you don't have people to
people on your sideline cheering you on
so I think that Solana is great right now for what it's
What the the audience that it's playing to which is the Gen Z's that want to gamble on
Chick-coins or maybe even the Millennials that wanted to gamble on shit coins. I don't know
Arbitrum seems to be the king of defy
I don't know if Solana is the right one for gaming until they figure out the outage issues
but yeah, that's kind of my my answer and I think that
We'll probably see something come out in the future that would be lightning-fast and be better than any of these solutions for gaming
Then I posit a question that I haven't heard anybody
Like just to Noah's point go ahead because I get a lot of like advisor offers
There are a ton of chains like in development right now for various use cases and various, you know
You know pain point solving. So like I definitely agree like it's we're still very early
So I agree I wanted to posit a question that I haven't actually had I was on the the eight coin Dallas space
Personally have been very interested in dows for a long time
Done a bunch of work on them
Have advised informally advise a point out for a while
And now obviously they're going through their ape chain
The vote and obviously for those who don't know
They did the first vote. There's obviously much a big brother that wants to launch their own ape chain
Then there's Horizon Labs, which has their own
Complications with a coin Dow in terms of
Their satisfaction with their services to date and then polygon put in well bought 10 million
$10 million worth of ape and I think I believe is currently leading or one that the the
Improvement proposal, but what are your thoughts Andrew?
Do you think an ape chain potentially is the gaming solution or what are your thoughts on a chain in general?
I mean, I always doesn't matter who builds it. Yeah
I mean, I always thought that again going back to kind of the layer 3 conversation
Like I always thought that you know again yoga a chain whatever you want to brand it
Like is a perfect example of a product market fit
So, you know again, it's just being able to control, you know gas on your own chain being able to control some of you know
The tokenomics. I mean the only thing I would call it about Solana
I agree with everything Noah said by the way, like I think he was pretty spot-on
I don't think folks are paying enough attention to this notion token extensions
like they've messaged about it a bit they haven't been as aggressive about it, but
You know dig into it because effectively what what they're enabling you to do as a developer is to leverage
Tokens in very different and unique ways, right and and I could see again if I'm you know
If I'm a gaming project, maybe I'm hesitating again based on what Noah's saying. I agree, but like that's a very interesting
Differentiator and offering that I do think can be leveraged in very interesting ways from a gaming perspective. So just just calling that out
That that was that was in a miss on Mike, but I agree with I agree with what Andrew says
Probably probably a good idea to be a major what's good
Major okay. Alrighty. Well, thanks. So it's nice that we help people. Yeah, I'll remove them. Perfect
So kind of back to the conversations and I love that this essentially could just be me me and you talking
Probably if you're in LA he'd meet you and Andrew having drinks and and or iced teas and talking about it
Are there any big conferences? I know Andrew and Biggie. Are you guys going to eat Denver to other any big?
No, I'm not going to eat Denver. I won't get into like the rationale
But but there is I went to the community gaming conference in LA last year. I forget
I think that's the new name of it
And it was good. Listen, it was like the first year
So they were still kind of getting their sea legs and and you know figuring it out
But I have to say for like one of the first kind of community run gaming events. It was really good
I mean they had they had great games there like shrapnel and wild card
If you're not familiar wild card is the former developer of Lucky's Tale for Nintendo and work with friends
Like so definitely keep an eye on Paul
And then they also had a lot of the big, you know gaming creators, you know doing live demos doing competitions
But I thought overall like it was a great event if I was working at a gaming project. I would definitely attend
If you're also just trying to be early and seeing kind of what's being built what to be bullish on pre token
You know always always a great opportunity as well. But but yeah, I would say that the caliber events in LA is not great
In general, I find most of the valuable events are either tied to you know
Chains or or there's a lot of APAC events that I think at least for kind of an aggregator like us make more sense. Yeah
Why don't you want to get into the details of not going to eat Denver? Oh
It's boring. It just has to do with like ad restrictions. Like as a Dex you can't effectively market in the UX. It's very gray area
So so most of my marketing is actually very targeted towards towards Europe and APAC
So the bulk of bulk of events that I'm focused on for the year are in the APAC and and Europe, you know
No, cuz obviously we're more of a defect project. But so things like token 2049
Maybe like digital assets some at UK, you know things like that
There's blockchain life Dubai which has kind of been the event and then token 2049 is launching in Dubai
Which I think will will actually do quite well
And I wouldn't be surprised if you see, you know
Blockchain life sponsor shifting over and things like that just cuz 49 is such a well-run event, you know
We're sponsoring blockchain life. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean take a look
I think like what I would do as a marketer candidly is I would probably activate it both and
Then you know compare the results, you know
Do it as kind of a test and learn this year and then next year scale up on the one that you know
Perform better or align better with kind of my targeting. Yeah
Are they are they back Noah, what are you going to?
Well, I'm going to all the ones in the States. I'm going to eat Denver. I'm going to consensus
I'm going to NFT dot NYC gonna go to rare Evo
There's a smaller conference that George from cryptos RS invited me to in Orlando
I might hit that after eat them eat Denver. I'm not sure yet
Yeah, I'm gonna try to hit all the good ones in the States and then token 2049 is very enticing
but the trip to Dubai and it looks like it's right after the blockchain life the trip to Dubai is a
It's it's a bit of a long flight the Noah like one thing just to call out. So
Token 2049 Singapore, I think Solano was very smart. So what they did is they they're actually doing break point
Literally right after in Singapore. So the idea is let's take everyone that's there for token 2049
Have them extend their trip and join break point. So like you can hit two with one on that
Wait, so they're doing sorry. This was last year though. Are they doing that again this year?
Yeah, so token 2499 is always in Singapore. And so last year break point was in Amsterdam
But this year what they're doing is they're literally like let's do Solano break point in Singapore directly after token 2049
and it's super smart because then it's like everyone that's there which I would argue and it is like the creme de la creme like
The attendance at 49 is incredible
And then the likelihood people extend their trip for two or three days to attend break point is I think pretty good. Oh
Wait, I was talking about what are those there's a token 2049 in Dubai this year though. Yeah, that's the new one. Mm-hmm
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking about going to because it's it's I think it's right after the blockchain life on
Yeah, I would why not check it out
But I can make this public formerly
Having brought on Alan to the team for fantasy friends and and kex
So thank you for the intro Andrew and it's been a while you're laughing. No, fuck you
Fucking games and fuck off. I don't know why I'm doing this
I stopped in to me several times and it actually happened when someone was talking about
Their father passing away and I felt really bad for some reason
I'm hitting the laugh emoji instead of the heart emoji and they're nowhere close to each other
They're like two. I don't know why I'm doing that. I really don't so, you know when this person this is a guest on one of our
panels he was talking about his late father and I hit this and then I
Scrambled so I was spamming the heart over and over
And the crying over and over because I got so anxious. I'm like, no, I'm not laughing. It's not funny
But yeah, that's that's why I don't know why I'm doing that
It's okay, it's some sort of mental health issue, but it's okay might still be the
The opioids that you're you're taking for your for your leg injury evil. Welcome to the stage
I actually don't know. What do you what do you build? What do you do?
How do you how do you decide if you do build what ecosystems and if you don't build?
What are your thoughts on ecosystem choices for builders? Oh, man, that's a that's a great question
It's a very long answer, but I'll just say like what we do is we build the world's first
AI generative entertainment platform. So it's an entertainment gaming platform
It's been something we've been working on since 2019
We've been building it very very quietly
Although I'd say in the past four months things have really been accelerating in terms of our go-to-market
One is not live which is secret fight club. That's that's kind of a bigger play
It's basically a virtual sports league where human teams will configure multi-agent
Well, we'll configure AI athletes and influencers
And then those AI athletes are gonna compete in virtual sports on stream for cash and prizes
So we're very very excited about that product now that that one touches blockchain in a couple different ways a very high level
That the memberships to join the teams are NFTs
They stack so the more memberships you buy the more votes you get on the team the more percentage of the rewards you you earn
And so forth now, those are chain agnostic by design and have been chain agnostic since inception, right?
We very very deliberately wanted so evil evil super super important question
Considering what we're talking about when you say chain agnostic functionally, how is that possible?
So you're saying you launched. So what did you launch the core product on?
This is not a live product, right? So when I'm talking about it, okay life, but what I can tell you is that
The idea is it's just a an ownership check on the on the NFT
So like you could have a team that had a set of memberships on
Arbitrum Bitcoin ordinals like anything where I can say yes for sure. I know that this person owns this thing
Right. So EVM compatible is obviously like, you know easier but not even necessarily a requirement and that that's where the team memberships
And then the way in which you interact with the platform is in terms of monetarily
You know, for example, if you were an advertiser and you wanted to buy advertisements or if you wanted to play our vertically integrated fantasy sports
You will use a like it. I guess I can't really comment on that. Yeah, I'm gonna skip that and then just say that
And just say that the too late. I'm just gonna say the game data
The game data for like the athletes and and all the matches and all the game items that you you purchase to you know
To configure the AI's that's all gonna be on a chain. We're gonna select so we haven't we haven't picked the chain yet
I mean very likely going to be a layer 2 I'd say that
In terms of requirements and kind of how we're thinking about that. We don't need something with real-time transactions
It's not it's not that kind of game, but we do want something with, you know, relatively low gas cost
You know in a higher higher transactions per second
So, you know again something like polygon
Arbiter is kind of interesting and you know, what immutable X is doing is kind of interesting
But we're sort of sorting that out right now to be perfectly candid
I think these various chains are in various stages of growth themselves in terms of like what support they're willing to offer you
You know are like, you know, is it monetary? Is it hard or soft dollars? And so we're still sort of sort of sorting that out
Now that said we have a second product which I'm fucking
Very fucking excited about I actually think that this thing is like amazing
So we built the world's first
We call it burn it down like B U R N I T D A O and what burn it down is is a
100% on chain squid game game show, but it adds in game trading
Right. So what's gonna happen in burn it down is there this smart contract, which is totally autonomous, right?
So there's no way that that the team can do anything the prize pool is effectively renounced
Hell the contracts effectively renounced. There's only like we can only make some minor cosmetic changes. That's it
We can't manipulate it. Nobody can rig it
Nobody can you know interact with the prize pool or manipulate it in any way
This game uses the blockchain as the game engine and it's completely self-contained
So there are no smart there's no back-end servers. There are no oracles. There's no proxy contracts
It's really really insane. It's an insane amount of technology
Also, if you're if you're a technical person you're interested in checking it out go check out the contract
It's fully audited all the sources verified. You can look through it
You know post it up top, please. Yeah, sure. Let me let me find it
So so that game the way it works is it starts with an NFT collection like each contract starts with a collection and
Hold on a second. Let me find it here
Okay, so I posted some links where you can go to the website and check it out
You can see from there. They're they're basically two games that are live, right?
One is an 8,000 NFT collection where you're competing to win about a hundred and seventy thousand dollars
The other is a sixteen thousand NFT collection where you're competing to win
I think about two point seven or two point eight million dollars right now. Everything is denominated in aetherium. So
The price impact of it to the entry cost is very low, right? But the prize moves up very quickly
Now here's how it's gonna work
You mint these NFTs once all the NFTs in a season are minted out the game starts
The game itself like squid game is a series of rounds that are timed before the timer runs out
You basically have to claim your NFTs, which means that you have to mark them as safe from elimination
Right now when you claim an NFT and you mark it safe
The contract is also going to select another NFT at random that could be yours or someone else's
But just anything that hasn't been claimed and it's going to eliminate it. It's gonna burn it, right?
So at the end of every single round the total supply of NFTs is being decreased by at least half
Now why is that important? That's important because the prize is held securely in the contract from day one
Which means that all these NFTs are collateralized. So they have an actual associated value
So every time we decrease the supply by half as the game progresses
The value of the remaining NFTs the survivors is doubling
So for example, if you minted, let's say five for $20
So you spent a hundred dollars on day one during the mint by round five
Individually those NFTs value is now six hundred and forty dollars. Okay, that's like the floor price for these things now in between the rounds
You can sell them and this is I think really a phenomenal mechanic. No one else has ever done this
It's only possible through blockchain and it's only possible by creating a contract contract that can't be manipulated
That's fully permissionless. It's fully trustless
It's foundational in terms of its principles with crypto and what that means is that now you can say, okay
I minted five for $100 now, it's round five. Maybe I lost one. I've got four left
I'm gonna sell two to fidgetle right for you know, maybe he's a whale. Maybe he missed the mint
Whatever whatever reason but I'm gonna sell two for a thousand dollars now. What do I have? I have nine hundred dollars in profit
My entry to the game is free and I still have two chances to win
$170,000 that's the mechanics of this game that we are super super excited about
Again, no one else has done it, you know that what the term world's first gets tossed around all the time in crypto
But this is like truly a world's first
Because it sounds like it's like wolf mechanics. It's more of an asynchronous game. So you have to show up and compete, right?
It's not a raffle or a lottery
Like you can't just buy an NFT and then fuck off and then win
right like you have to show up every round and you have to compete to win and
Survive and eliminate other people right but the last NFT surviving the last remaining NFT wins the prize
and by the way that claim is
Instantaneous, right? So you win this money immediately and why that's so important is there was an article that
Came out recently. I don't know if anyone saw this but Netflix did a reality show squid game with real people
Competing for like two million dollars, right?
Loved loved. Yeah, here's a four point five six four point five six million dollars. Here's the crazy thing, right?
The person that won I won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it
But the person that won they've not received their prize
Right, that's the fuck. Yeah, that show finished filming over a year ago
Right finished filming over a year ago before that it was 16 weeks of filming, right?
So this person has been waiting basically a year and a half to see a single dollar from this prize
And then think about they were away from their family for three months blah blah blah, right?
This is what Bernadette is fixing. It guarantees you that if you win
It's a fair game and you win immediately
Right like the next thing that happens after you win is you claim and that that ethereum hits your wallet and it's done
That's what I think is really important about Bernadette Dow is you know, a lot of people including ourselves, right?
We've been building these web 2.5 games
We've been like, oh we need to add you know
Credit cards and we need to you know emails and all this other stuff to make it easy for gamers to make it easy for you
Know in our case sports fans, but here's the problem. It's always introducing points of centralization points of trust
Permissions, right? It's it's really
Undermining in my view a lot of what makes blockchain gaming so exciting and why we got into crypto in the first place
Bernadette represents the first time that someone has really figured out a way to make a truly web 3 game that is
100% on-chain and delivers all of those principles, you know, you don't even have to play Bernadette by yourself, right?
Because it's permissionless and it supports multiple wallets, right?
You could play with 10 wallets you and your friends could get together with a multi-sig and play as a group
You could play as a community. You can play as a guild
We support all of that and the best part about it is a while. There are some advantages to size there are also offsets
It's a balanced game, right? So you can win as an individual you might win as a group
But regardless you're going to be guaranteed to have a fair transparent and public game and I just think that that's so so important
So the the question that I think I presume
Everybody's thinking is you said
Jama be quiet. You said it's sorry. My dog is losing. He likes I can tell
Honestly, I say this all the time. My dog and my girlfriend have more crypto than most people in crypto
My question you evil is 16,000 units of $20 a pop
2-point something million dollar prize pool. Where's that money coming from? Oh, sorry
There's two contracts right now, so there's there's a bigger contract which is 16,000 NFTs
2.5 million or actually I think about 2.8 million dollars now
And it's a little bit it should be a little bit over a little bit around 200 in NFT
So that's one contract so $200
Got it. So that that adds a zero. Okay, so that's a 3.2 million dollar. That makes sense
It's a 3.2 million dollar raise the competition doesn't trigger until that race is completed
That's right. Therefore you can say that that money's going to be earned and if you don't sell out are you returning?
You're gonna return the funds that is just a phenomenal question and the answer is this contract delivers there is an
automated refund mechanism
Right if the thing doesn't if a season if any season doesn't sell out within a certain amount of time
You can refund yourself 80 percent of of your mint price, right? No questions asked
so, I mean I I love the fact that
Okay, I'll give you guys some like kind of insight here there was and I'm not gonna name names
But there was there was another game that recent. Oh, you're naming names
There's a game that recently launched about so burn it down launched in October, right now. We're not VC backed
Okay, so like if you were like, how come I haven't heard about this? That's why right like we're not VC backed
We didn't have you know, a hundred thousand dollars to throw into marketing or whatever where it's very very grassroots
It's very bootstrapped that said another game appeared a couple weeks ago
And they were heavily BC backed and they basically said we're gonna do survivor but off-chain but with crypto
And an investor friend of mine actually sent me a link and he said, what do you think about this?
And I said I looked at it and I said
Their game can be rigged ours cannot that's the that's the big difference, right?
And he said why and I said, well, it's a voting mechanism and you can't do voting in crypto
Like you have to understand sibil attacks. You have to understand that one person is not equal to one wallet
Like these are very basic concepts
Especially for game design, right? And it wasn't clear to me that they why are you taking why are you taking shots at Machi on a public?
I am not I'm actually not talking about Machi. I'm talking about someone else completely but but you're talking about crypto the game
I know comment, but I'll just I'll just say this
So what's wild to me is the very next day
Some guy uh thought he was doing something cool. He entered the game
He got he made himself 200 wallets. It was it was 0.1 eth
Entries per entry, which is a lot frankly, but you know, he put in 20 eth into this game, right?
So he tweets about it because he's all excited. He's like, hey guys, I just bought 40 of the vote in this game
Right. And what do they do? What does what does the founder do? They kick him out of the game
They didn't actually have a rule against what he did and I would argue that anyone in crypto should know that that's possible
Like you should know that one person is not equal to one wallet, right?
But they just didn't think about that for whatever reason so they kick him out of the game and here's what gets even worse
So now they've kicked him out of the game
Right, but they've kept his eth and and like that's pretty crazy
The next thing that happens is like people get real upset about this, right?
And they're like you can't steal this guy's money like what the effort you're doing, right?
Zach xbt gets involved like it was a whole thing, right?
So now what happens right after a couple days?
And and this I want you guys to pay attention to this because this is this is the really important part, right?
After a couple days the founder says, okay, we're gonna refund the guy. So how do they refund him?
They reach into the prize pool
They take 20 eth out and then they give it to him
I want you to think about that
Right that means that anybody on the team had access to the prize pool
Any who knows who had access to the prize pool who knows who was in the game who knows how many votes they had
Like this is the problem with not with basically web two games in general and then also not really understanding crypto
Right. This is why burn it down is so important
Because that scenario that I described everything about it, right being kicked out of the game having your money stolen
You know having someone reach into the prize pool having it have them give money to a specific person
Not you know having it be rigged or manipulated
None of that is possible in burning down
And that's that is what I think is so exciting about it
And what I love about it for the crypto community and for the culture like this is a perpetual millionaire machine guys
Like that is fucking crazy
Right, and there's nowhere else on the planet earth
Where you're going to have a one in 1600 chance or 16 000 chance of winning almost three million dollars
And there's definitely nowhere on planet earth where you can increase your chances, right?
So like if you buy a hundred entries you're going from one in sixteen thousand to one in sixty
And then the ability to like regulate your risk to off-board to trade as the game goes on, you know
Maybe you're not even playing to win. Maybe you're just someone who's like
I'm going to spend a thousand bucks on these nfts and i'm going to sell them off as I as I make my way through the game
Right to wales to you know, the machis of the world whoever wants to play because they're not looking for the 13
Thousand x that you're looking at they're looking to do a hundred x or 10 x or 15 x or 5 x or whatever
They're doing and they're willing to pay for that
Right because as the supply gets knit with smaller and smaller smaller
The values of these nfts are doubling every single time
Which means as you get closer to the prize you're talking about nfts that have a floor value
You know 80 000 160 000 like this only goes up, right? Now the last thing i'll say about burning down with it
So then I go ahead. Well, no, no, but no, I need to ask a question before I
So the larger the more the most important question i'm going to ask you at the end is
How are you deciding which ecosystem and what have you and what has been the process?
In the meantime, they said you said it's been a lot. It's been live for what sounds like six months. No
So are you still selling out the first season? I guess yeah, we're still working on the first season
So, uh, we've seen that we've actually seen a bunch of traction increase in the last week, right?
So we had it took us like a while and about only about 14 people minted in the smaller game
That's the 170k game. By the way, we fully expect that to be the first game to mint out, right?
Like we expect that that game is smaller entry fee, you know, it's a smaller entry point
Uh, and then once that mints out we expect that larger game to mint out pretty quickly
Regardless we've gone from 14 to I think 60 64 63
Entries like just in the last couple days
So, you know really this is about getting the word out and talking about it for a long time
I wasn't even really talking about it to be honest. I wouldn't you couldn't have gotten me on a stage to talk about it
I was just trying to we were waiting for the audit to come and you know
It's so again, like this is like live on ethereum, right?
So we went to go get it audited and we wanted the audit to you know
To pass and we wanted to be able to put that out. So it's taken a little bit of time
We wanted to do things. I think the right way
Now your question about how do we select a chain
The answer for me was ethereum
Right. It had to be ethereum and the reason why it had to be ethereum
Was because ethereum is where the liquidity is at if you want people to play a game
For three million dollars and you want people to be buying nfts and selling nfts that are tens of thousands or you know
50,000 or a hundred thousand dollars that liquidity at least today is on ethereum
Right. So that's a big part of it. The other thing was
ethereum and this is I don't want to get too technical, but i'll just say ethereum has a specific feature
That enables us to have a self-contained smart contract without needing to use chain link
It's a it's a feature that came out of the merge. Not a lot of developers know about it
But it's a pretty important
Technical innovation that we're taking advantage of and as far as I know
We may be the first game to take advantage of it. There will be others, but we're definitely the first
now having said that we spent about
Six months developing the technology to make it possible on ethereum
That means like we can burn thousands of nfts for the cost of a gas refund
We can do all sorts of crazy technology just to make the game work
To make it so that there's no admin or host all of the game states are happening from the players
What that means quite simply is that it's not like there's a team that says the round is going to start
The round is going to end. It just happens automatically through the contract. So all that technology took a while
There was then about three months of hand
Optimizing the gas on the contract now i'm not going to tell you i'm a gas optimizer
I'm sure some of the optimizer words could do a better job
Right, but what I will tell you is this is how optimized it is a friend of mine minted five nfts
When gas was 20 guay and he paid a total of six dollars and 50 cents in gas
I looked at what gas was when gas was between 80 and 100 guay
I looked at minting one nft
And it was 20 which is not a lot on ethereum, right?
But i'll ask you a question fidgetl
I looked at then a transaction for 32 nfts minting 32 at once when gas was between 80 and a hundred dollars
Guess how much it was in dollar value for gas?
Uh, it's either ridiculously high or ridiculously low
Uh, i'll I'll spoil it. So 20 is one nft
32 nfts was 21 dollars and three cents
That is basically less than 50 cents in nft
Right, and I think what it shows is kind of the opposite of the 404 nonsense
Which is like look if you really understand the evm
And you take the time to optimize to build a solid product
You can deliver a lot of performance out of ethereum even in its current state
Which contract are you using by the way
This is this oh the underlying nft contract or the or the main game. Yeah, the nft contract we're using is a 721 psi
Which not a lot of people know about but is really a phenomenal contract for gas
And that that's the basis and then on top of that we layered a ton of like basically a ton of our own technology
So, you know in terms of original code
I'd say that we're at like a few thousand lines in this contract like it's a very
It's a very beefy contract
It's really significant amount of technology including the automated refund you asked about earlier
And did you guys just because we're asking did you submit an eip proposal?
Uh, well we have we have we retained copyright
So when we published the source code we didn't publish under mit license
So we retained full copyright rights and you know talk to our lawyers about that
We think that there's probably stuff that's patentable
Although to be honest with you guys like, you know
That takes that takes some amount of money and we're hoping that uh as the as these games have mint out
We can seek, you know from the ip protection around some of that
15 grand minimum. Let me know if you need a good ip a good patent attorney. That's not me
That was not a self-check. Yeah, no, bro. I may hit you up on that. I mean look we're we're excited because essentially
As these things mint out really what's happening is we're taking a small fee and then our intention is to use that mostly to help it
Mint out. So the way we look at it, like, you know, if you're minting in
You know the game starts when other people mint right when they get when everyone mints out
So you're sort of incented in a way to to help us do that. That's kind of the pulling from the front
We want to be pushing from the back
Right, which is as these things mint out
We're going to take our percentage and apply that into marketing to help push it forward
My goal here is to see somebody win, you know, two or two or three million dollars every five days
Like that's what I want to have happen. And that's what I think we can get to right like the world's first
Perpetual millionaire machine. I think that that's phenomenal
And I think the fact that it's not zero sum where you know
You either win or lose the fact that you can throw out you can trade your games
You can trade your game items mid-game. You can you know, take profits you can adjust your risk
This is a whole new model
Right, and I mean just just to like explain this from a game development perspective
The last time somebody innovated on a model like this was like roman times
Right. It just hasn't been possible technically
Like we haven't had the technology to do it
And the fact that not just the fact that we had ethereum blockchain in 2015
But the fact that the merge put out some technology specifically last year. That's the only reason this is possible
Right. So we're able to play a new game mode a new model
Right that that we haven't been able to play as human beings
Since since the roman empire like I think that is important and very very cool
So before I sick no on you
My last question would be what uh
I guess it's not my last question, but uh, you said that there were some upgrades
Correlated to the merge that enabled this technology. Would you mind?
To the extent that you're capable, uh explaining what those changes were. Yep. Oh, yeah
I'm happy to so. I mean guys the thing about this contract is unlike that other game that I won't name
Everything is transparent, right? It's a fully transparent contract like there is a single smart contract
Which contains all of the code?
So if you go to etherscan you plug in the contract address you can look at the entire game
Everything right we're not hiding anything. There's no like secret proxies. There's no off-chain anything, uh, or whatnot
Now the piece of technology and specifically to answer your question
We didn't want to rely on uh, what's called an ethereum alarm clock
Which means we didn't want an external contract
To have to like wake up and then call this contract to make something happen
We wanted the game itself to have uh, virtualized game states
Now that matters because the bird the the merge made some changes
To kind of the way that uh, like a little bit of the way of the gas around s loads and so forth that
That helped enable that right number one and then most importantly we wanted to avoid a chain link, uh, vrf
Right, which is what everybody does when they need some amount of randomness now keep in mind in burn it down
randomness is not something that
Determines the winner of the game, right?
Randomness is something that uh burns one of the unclaimed nfts
The problem ends up being sorry one second getting a call
Okay, uh, the problem is that we end up in a situation by the way
But by the way, my girlfriend is in new york and she didn't give me the passcodes to all the alexas
So i'm living a nightmare talking to myself
While being talked to around my entire house. Sorry. Go ahead. That's really funny. Uh, yeah, so so so
I'm just yelling into corner funny alexa. That is so good. Um,
Okay, so so so just to be very very clear
This is not a game. It's not a lottery. That's not a raffle
I want to be very clear with people about that, right?
So we are not selecting a winner at random. In fact, this game is completely legal within the united states
Which is an important thing for us people, right? It's not gambling. It's a game of skill
The show is the show's recorded by the way. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm completely comfortable saying that
Um, so it's a game of skill and what's phenomenal about that is it means that it's not it's not a lottery
It's not a it's not a raffle mechanic, right?
There's no winners are never selected at random and so forth and we do use a little bit of randomness
That affects all players equally
Which is key right and that little bit of randomness is what picks the nft that we're going to burn
Now normally you would have to use chain link vrf, right?
Which is an oracle to get the uh to get the random number basically
But here we're using a new opcode called prev or prev
Right. And again, this is i'm being very transparent because like the whole point of this thing is transparency, right?
So that is the opcode that we're using now. What does that opcode do?
Randomness from the beacon chain that ethereum is using to select its own validators
now what does that mean that means that in the proof of work chain it was possible for a minor to
manipulate some of the inputs around the block
Effectively making randomness impossible. That's why everyone used chain link vrf
Right. What this does is it makes it
Not just it's not just uh, it's it's basically not even theoretically possible for a validator to do that
To like how this thing is working, right?
So what it what prev randow enables us to do
Is to effectively select and there's more there's a bit more to it, but i'm simplifying
But it gives us a bunch of entropy. That means that the contract doesn't have to have any kind of external dependencies
Right, it can it can be completely self-contained. There's no oracles. There's no back end servers
There's no proxy contracts like any of that and really in a lot of ways
I would say that a big part of the the oracle part
Is that we have access to prev randow which anyone has access to by the way, right?
It's just that for whatever reason a lot of developers
I think just kind of like missed it or didn't care or who knows but uh, you know
It's out there and I think it's a phenomenally powerful piece of technology if used in the right way
I love it and i'm interested
Noah go ahead and I just want to ask questions about like how are you deciding which ecosystems and why and where you see that going
But no, go ahead. Yeah, and also what's the roadmap?
When when can we see this being available?
You can hit burn it dao.xyz right now and mint right now
So you can go to b u r n i t d a o dot x y z or you can find it off the twitter
I posted up to the nest if you look at that tweet
There's a couple links you can link directly to the hundred and seventy thousand dollar game or link directly to I think what is the 2.7
Million dollar game, uh, or you can click the uh, the preview and take you to the main site
Uh, but those games are they're live
Right, which I think also the very cool thing here
So this is the only web 3 game that i'm aware of
And and by the way, i'm i'm I want to be very clear like it's not that other people haven't made on-chain stuff
It's just that the on-chain stuff they've made has either been raffles or lotteries or uh, you know
Or they have kind of off-chain components or whatever. So just to be super clear
That said it's the only true web 3 game where you can play it entirely from smart contract
Like you can play this thing off etherscan if you want, which is crazy. Like you don't even have to use our our website
By the way, this is the music from the site burn it down
Um, I i'm a visual person. So when you go to the site
By the way, let's also make this clear. This is not a sponsored space
100 not a sponsored space. I I didn't I don't know what yeah
If it was I would know that Noah was going to say kind things
But he may say very unkind things in the next few minutes
Yeah, no, I had um, I had no idea that evil was even going to join and I didn't even know that he was building this
So this is I don't know what this is. I know my
I presumed you I thought you were building media stuff
So my question was more like I started with I don't think you're building anything, but if you are building so go ahead
Yeah, so you go to the site and one says what I see like the what colon or the one colon what which is a playoff
The spf tweet and then burn so burn you went into burn
So when I hit what there's live and burn, can you can you just like walk us through step by step?
So what takes you down the path of like what's going on in the game, you know, it takes you to the rules
It takes you to the faq like it's more of an explanation about you know
What what is bernard dao how do you play and so forth?
If you hit burn that will take you to the uh, the contract selection page you click that button
You'll see two different contracts there. One is the two point. I I don't I haven't looked exactly today
But it's about probably about 2.7 2.8 million prize
And the other one is the hundred and probably about 170k prize
And uh, you just have and it will show you the price
In eth as well as dollars and you basically just click one of those two buttons, right?
And then that will take the game page and the mint page
Okay, cool. I'm gonna mint not financial advice
But this is fine. Okay, so with so then the smaller one is
Um, but you converted noah, what the fuck is going on? It's a fucking cool game, bro
Why not? I'm just gonna get one just general i'm gonna go for the generational wealth one
Is that the one that's the two the the three million dollar one?
It says 2.8 million. Oh, it's a really quick. Yeah, okay. So this goes into and you probably explained this but again
i'm a visual learner, um,
A treasury like is is the amount of money i'm paying for a ticket ultimately going to the pot that is going to be paid
Out to the winners. Yeah, so this is what's great. It's not going to a separate wallet. It's actually held in the contract itself
So it never leaves it doesn't leave the contract
Right. It's being secured by the contract, which is fucking awesome
So I will say this no i'll give you a little bit of advice, right?
I will say that the bigger contract the 2.8 million is going to mint out more slowly
What I would do is look at the smaller contract
Where I think there's about 60 60 some odd entries already
And then I would take the same money that you were going to spend and I would mint multiple entries
Right partially because the contract is very gas optimized for batch minting. So you're going to get a much cheaper minting experience
Uh for for whatever money you're going to spend and it's more likely I think in a short term
That that smaller contract is going to mint out sooner
Contract and then mint. Okay. Got it. Got it. Cool. Yeah, let's give it a shot. Let's see what we get here
Now i'll tell you the whole the whole game interface is that sorry. Go ahead. No
Oh the whole so I mean this is I'm just gambling though, right?
No, no, no, that's that's the whole point, right? So like this is the opposite of gambling
Uh, this is essentially a simple game of skill
Right where where once the game starts you're going to have to compete with other people
To claim your nfts before someone claims their nfts and burns you so you're trying to burn someone you're trying to make yourself immune
From elimination and also eliminate other players
Interesting. Okay, not right now like this is what once it starts
So right now it's just in the minting phase, right?
And once it mints out fully then you're going to return to the same page
And that button instead of saying mint is going to say uh, it's basically going to say like I think start
Or something like yes, i'm pvping
You're well, you're playing against all the other nfts every round
Right, so it is pvp, but it's like pvp battle royale
I guess you could say like a like a giant battle royale elimination round
So I would i'll say this think about it. Think about this way
Imagine you had a football field
Okay, and you had a bunch of people at one end of the field each person's an nft
You can own as many of those those people as you want as many of those nfts as you want
Now there's going to be a timer
And all those nfts have like let's say three minutes to run from one end of the field to the other
But every time someone crosses, you know the end zone on on the field, right?
The contract is going to take somebody who hasn't crossed that finish line and they're going to eliminate them
That's basically what you're doing
So by the time half the people cross the finish line half the other people are going to be eliminated
Right, and then you're going to you're going to have them run back the other way and back and forth and back and forth
Until there's just one person left
Interesting. All right. Well, it sounds like something is going to be fun to
Uh fool around with in this upcoming bull market fidgety questions. Let's fucking go
I just like I like hearing you talking about fooling around with people in the bull market
That's a personal thing. So I will I will go to
Noah's really playing the game. Holy shit
Now that you have sufficiently described your product and hopefully everybody's checking it out if you haven't checked it out
It's posted up top. So please do so that is not that is not
An advice to purchase but it is advice to check it out
sounds like something that doesn't require a lot of sophistication in terms of
Technical knowledge so that's always something kind of fun
And maybe a nice entry into a little bit more of a token mechanics and kind of blockchain
products being built fully on chain and we could have a whole space about the complications of the complications the the
The value proposition of things being fully on chain partially on chain stuff like that, but we won't right now
But evil I would like to know by the way, I think that would be an idea for a space digital
Just just like to be honest, even if it's not about bernard dao, I think that's a great topic
Yeah, but then i'd have to listen to fucking uh
Jonah dance around reality
So i'm kidding. I love jonah and he's a fellow polygon supporter. So
Um got to support the fans
The level to with which you incorporate web 3 is kind of the defining moment about what is quote unquote a web 3 game versus a web 2 game
Experience digital quality all that stuff is kind of where this is all landing and then you have tokens and and speculation
Connected to them in different ways. Whether it be um
Over what was it? What was that project that launched token over?
Overlord time at overworld
Has anybody seen any gameplay no
Um back to your product. Uh, what was your discussion? What was and or is still your deciding?
Uh decision process for where you are
Uh deploying different parts of the product or the core of the product. Yeah and uh
Utilization of other tokens from different ecosystems. Yeah, you know, you know, I guess the way I would answer this is like
You know why put bernard dao on ethereum, you know
Why look at a polygon for uh, you know, let's say parts of secret fight club yb chain agnostic
The the benefits not the feature right? This is something that uh, steve jobs actually was very very good at you know
When he launched the ipod back in the day
He didn't say this ipod has two gigabytes of storage or this ipod has, you know, 20 millisecond playtime
What he said was this ipod has 1 000 songs in your pocket
And that is the difference between selling a benefit or highlighting a benefit and highlighting a feature
And so what I think happens to a lot of people is they get
Stuck thinking about features, right and they're evaluating these chains
Uh almost like religiously right in terms of features
But the right way in my view is to have a more
Agnostic approach which is to say, you know
What am I trying to do and what are the benefits of this particular ecosystem to my use case, right?
Like in the in the case of bernard dao, what do I want? I want layer one ethereum security. That's very important
I want to guarantee people
That the only way this thing is going to be rigged or manipulated
Is if somebody figures out how to compromise ethereum security and frankly if they figure that out, you know
We've got bigger problems than bernard dao not working, right? So so I feel pretty good about that, right? I also want
You know just the liquidity of ethereum
I think for the trading mechanics to work for the prizes to work at those levels you need to have that liquidity right now
For secret fight club. What do I want?
You know, I want people to be able to join teams from any ecosystem. I specifically want people from
Solana like solana team to be fighting against you know
Like the I don't know. I guess I was gonna say the solana d gods doesn't make sense anymore
But I what is it like the salon of turtles now, right? So like the solana turtles or whatever?
Uh, you know to be battling, uh, you know
The the ethereum pudgies right like I want to enable that kind of cross community by the way
Evil I have to ask the question because during during the bear I came up with the concept and
built out the the uiux where something called
bored during the bear fight
Which is you would wager your your existing nfts that are just lingering in your wallet
Does this does this technology have the possibility to bring in third-party nfts?
Oh, yeah, and then potentially instead of burning the nft that's that gets lost putting that into a prize pool
Yes, and uh, the thing that I will say about burnett dao that's super cool
Is that because it's completely on chain and it's completely public and all the game data is public you can build on this
With your own community without asking permission, right? Like this is the whole point of permission lists
You don't need my permission to use this product as a as a source of engagement or fun for your own community
So like what do I mean by that? Okay, so like let's say that you have a digital, you know community, right?
You could say hey if you're a member of the digital community, right and you're playing burnett dao
Whether you win the game or not, right the member of my community that gets the furthest in the game
You know makes it the farthest in the game
They're going to win this nft or they're going to win this and you can trust
That that winner is is fair, right because the game itself the burnett dao contract is fair
If that makes sense, right so so you can build like not only can we build customized community versions
And i'm not going to discuss that but i'll just say that like we're definitely looking at that right now
But beyond that, uh, it's very easy for existing communities to layer on things, right?
Again, this this is the beauty of something that's permissionless, right is you don't need to ask
You know, you can just look at it and say you know what?
I want to take the burnett dao web face and I want to make it
I don't know, you know a fidgetl nft community experience, right?
And I want to make sure that when fidgetl community members, you know do x or y and burnett dao
We're going to give them these additional awards. They're going to get access to these prizes
They're going to access to these wallets and so on and so forth
So the answer to your question is yes, but even more than that right like even beyond that
You don't need us to do anything, right?
You can just pick this up and use it yourselves integrated in your own communities integrating in whatever way you want
You know, you can play the game as a fidgetl community
So this is like you get a multi-sig a bunch of people put in eth you go buy the nfts and you have a payment splitter
Now as you sell the nfts whatever money comes in is payment split and if you win the prize
It's payment split hell you don't even have to trust the people in your own community
Like that's the amazing part, right? Like you don't have to trust anyone to have a fair game and for me
I think and I just I can't say this enough, right? Like if you go back and you read the original
White paper like the the satoshi white paper the bitcoin white paper
What does it say in the first paragraph like several times right it talks about trust
It talks about trust and it talks about how the whole point of crypto was getting rid of trust
The idea was that can you have a a fair transaction with somebody who is actively trying to cheat you?
And as much as they want to cheat you they can't right?
That's what I think is is cool about bernard dal and that's what I think it provides to communities to your point as well
Right, so you can build experiences for your communities where your communities win art or win nfts, you know
They win irl experiences, whatever you want them to win, right?
Whatever you want to do, but the thing is it's not like anyone in the community can sit there and say oh, well
Digital didn't like who won and so he hit reroll on the twitter selector
And he kept hitting reroll until noah came up and that's why noah always wins these fucking contests, right?
No, that makes sense, right? So it's it's kind of the uniswap approach which is and I think you mentioned earlier in terms of how
Certain variables are evenly applied as long as the code is law
then the argument i'm sure that is
Premised and and what would be had if it ever came an issue is
Besides for the the point of gambling that you pushed on heavily skill versus luck
That is the main difference
But the fact that the the the code exists
So even if you find that it's let's say you don't you didn't buy the argument that it's that it's not a game of skill
And that it's a game of gambling
You're just providing the platform and the code for people to act on top of correct
Yeah 100 100 and I think you know
The the thing i'll say about about that is like my last company we build these blockchain based tools for e-sports
The specific product was allowing players to play head to head for money
So i've spent a lot of time with a lot of very knowledgeable lawyers talking about this exact
Space right and you know while i'm not a lawyer
I can tell you that the game design here is extremely deliberate. So like i'll just give a small example
Somebody might say hey you will plan why wait until 8 000 people mint?
Why don't you just you know have a timer and then if 10 people mint then the game just starts?
Well, i'll tell you the reason why is because it's important in the united states that number one
You announce a prize in advance
Right. So you tell people before the game starts how much money they're going to win and number two
It's important that the prize is not a function of the number of players
So you can't have a game or shouldn't have a game where you say 10 people 10 dollars
You know a 100 prize, right? Like that's not a good idea
And so the reason why or some of the reasons why burn it down is the way it is
Is because we were thinking very thoughtfully about you know
The regulatory climate and about and not just not just you know, scc stuff, right but thinking thinking about
You know whether you know how this would be viewed by us gambling regulators whether it would whether they would be interested or not
And you know, the thing that I will say is that and this is important
It doesn't people get confused about this all the time
It doesn't actually matter how much skill as long as it's skill
Right. Now what I mean by that is like you look you can look at golf and you could say golf is a game where I hit
A stick, you know, I hit a ball with a stick into a hole basketball is a game, right?
I throw a ball into a ring, right?
You can make something sound like it doesn't take a lot of skill
But I don't think anyone would argue that golf is not a game of skill or you know
Chess is not a game of skill or whatever. Right the thing that makes something a game of skill
Is that you can't win randomly, right? It's not just about
It's not just about whether or not you are playing something, right? But like well just to clarify
You can win randomly, but that the the that the only way to win is not via randomness
Yeah, I saw a comment from ruben but ruben i'm sorry brother you're wrong
Uh, I I hate to like pull rank on you there, but you're you're not correct about what you're saying. Uh, so
Can you read the comment because actually I actually really like ruben. Yeah
He's saying you're going to need to have you're going to have to your brother
You are going to have a license brush terms against gaming law letters from state governments. They don't play
He's not correct. And the reason why i'll say it's not correct
Is because the regulators only care about regulating gambling
They do not care at all about regulating other things that it's outside of their scope, right?
So for example fantasy sports in the vast majority of jurisdictions are outside of the scope
Games of skill are outside the scope
Like i'll just give a very very simple example as to what I mean
If you held a raffle tomorrow and you said, okay
I'm selling a thousand tickets for ten dollars a ticket and you know
Here's the prize and i'm going to reach into this hat and pull out a random number
And a random ticket and that's going to be the winner that in the united states is problematic to say the least right now
There are ways you can do it
But you know i'm not going to go into all the details
But it you know, it would be considered a it would be something that you would have to take care in doing right
On the other hand if you hold a haiku contest or even more simply if I said i'm going to hold a contest
right where you it's ten dollars to enter there's a prize and
You have to just write the letter a on a piece of paper and i'm going to judge who wrote the best letter a
Right. That is not gambling. That is not a raffle. That is not a sweepstakes
And and that's just an important kind of thing about u.s
Law, so what i'll say to people is that again not a lawyer, but there are multiple
Aspects to the way that burnett dao works that we feel pretty confident about including some of the ways that i've touched on here
Am a lawyer, but i'm not going to espouse my legal opinions on a recorded space in public
uh, but yes much of what you're saying is is accurate, uh,
And uh teary you came up. Are you going to shit on this? What's going on?
Hey, you bet, you know, i'm gonna i'm gonna speak my uh,
Hatred on this as I usually do. Oh, yeah. Happy valentine's day everybody by the way
Hug those that hug those that you love uh, and um,
Take the money that you were gambling on crypto and buy flowers. You can't afford instead of crypto. You can't afford
What what can I say? I have to give my rant again once again, right? So this is this is why you guys
uh, but if I understand correctly, um, what we're discussing here is um
It's choosing the web3 ecosystem
I just wanted to share some of my experience because
The experience I had is with a bunch of shit coins and shit chains
And then they all come to me and then they say hey, do you want to build in my shit chain?
most of the time it's because you know, I look at a hierarchy of values and a hierarchy of principles and a hierarchy of
What is most important when it comes to building on a chain and one of them is to me, you know
Robustless so basically how secure the ledger is this ties up with?
You know how decentralized
How autonomous a chain can be?
Uh, and how unhackable that chain can be for example, uh, or how vulnerable two attacks are
So that's number one, but then this ties up to the number two is like how decentralized right?
Which is tied up to that and then the third one for me is a live privacy
So, you know, unfortunately, there's not a lot of them out there who actually have that feature of privacy
and then finally you have those who are
basically, well these features such as you know speed of transaction and basically
happiness of you know, how scalable that chain is and how much speed you can do so all of these to say
I've met some chains where you know, they say oh look we have a gazillion of nodes, but they're all operated by us, right?
We're very scalable and very secure
But it's basically a private blockchain when you really think of it
And you look at it. It's really more of a private blockchain that's operated by them and this includes the violence chains
This includes like other other chains. I'm not going to mention, you know, uh, just say salada. It's okay
I'm just gonna mention. I'm not gonna mention because you never know. I know like, you know, i'm not you mentioned
Can you mention cardano? I'm definitely not subject to bribes, right?
And I don't compromise on my integrity, you know
And that's the type of thing that you need to take into account when choosing the ecosystem. So
Uh, yeah, once again, you know to me
They're all the for the most part they're all crap, right?
And uh, and and and it's really really relevant
Uh to me and to anybody that is actually putting anything of substance in the blockchain
And what I mean by that it could be real world assets, you know
Uh, I do gold as you know, but I wouldn't put you know, like when I speak to my investors my clients
Uh, they're corporate usually they're you know, they're not retail most of it
And you know, they they always ask me the same question, right?
Uh, if I were to put 500 million
In a chain in order to build a line of credit of settlement between two big trading partners
You know who need those lines on a regular basis, you know
You would put that in a chain that could be single handedly
Such a caesar for example or or else, you know what I mean?
All the other shitcoins and all of these shit chains they're there and they do not really hack themselves because they just want you to build
And so sometimes you know, they just let you build in the ecosystem or drive you to get in the ecosystem
You know, oh look there's some grant here and grant that
And then you end up building in a shit chain
Just because you compromise your integrity and the next thing next thing, you know
If I were to do that, I would end up with 500 million of real fucking value. I'm talking about gold here
And and the guy would be like yeah, keep on building keep on building and then now you have a real world asset
Let's say you reach the billions of dollars or the triple digits millions
And then they rock to you in the sense that they say well, thank you for the cosa. I'm just taking this
I'm attacking myself because I fucking can you know, so i've seen some chains. They were like, hey
Why don't you like move a massive amount of gold onto my chain?
I'll give you money and then i'm like, well, you know what? My answer is my answer is usually
Well, if you buy the fucking thing
Then you then it's yours. I don't care. It's not mine anymore buy it and then move it onto your chain
But you know what really happens is that these shit chains and all these shit grants
They don't really have any money
They don't really have any value and for them, you know
I was talking to a treasury for example, like a stable coin protocol that wanted to be built in some other shit chain that belonged
Or was tied up to that kind of
Protocol and they were like, oh, yeah move move a lot like here. Let's start with 15 50 million
Let's start with 50 million then we do another hundred and then i'm like, yeah, okay
You know buy me 50 million buy me a hundred million and then move it to your chain
But you know what happens?
They don't have any fucking money and they would have to sell the shit coins in order to buy the real thing
And what would happen is they would dump their fucking price
Right, even though it would be still the smart thing to do
Because at least you would be back in your chain with some robustness over there
But the reality is it's all pumping up. It's all fucking
You know price discovery thing
and um, and yeah, so people are in it again people are in it for the dump like start saying, you know,
most of people are saying yeah, it's it's for the
It's for the spirit of blockchain and with such rebels guys bitcoin is the is the is the is the is the tool
of of of basically anti privacy of total control of your money
And when people realize that it's the nsa behind it and when it becomes a certainty because
One plus one equals two and a half three cocks then, you know
They will they will know and it will be a massive dump. So, you know be be be real, right?
And stop pretending you actually care about things and then do some other stuff by buying some shit coins or like
If you want to be consistent then buy some dodger coins some real stuff where it's clear that you're buying it for the for the pump
But i'm really i'm really pissed off when I see people pretending that they stand for certain values
And really when you look at it, it's just all fake
So that's for my rent. Okay one
One that rat was great until you went off the rails at the end. I believe you
Said you always said the bitcoins go just just let me go you believe you ended with
I was expecting a question for bernard to be honest that I was like, I don't understand
You ended with the bitcoin is going to zero because it's run by the nsa
And by monero, so that was that was a wonderful ending to the rent
What I what I will push back on that you did touch on I guess i'll push back again on
The example that you examples that you used stand true. I agree, right? Hey come to our chain. We'll give you
Uh, I was just talking about potentially trying to bring over
shibtoshi and squidgrom if you don't know shibtoshi is the largest
She I believe he's the largest shiba, you know holder in the world
He has a project and he's looking to help his community. We're talking about, you know
But what would it take to bring you over to polygon or bring you over to
And so I think the product is super important in terms of the discussion when talking about parking
You know tens about hundreds of millions of dollars worth of real-world assets
That's far different than building a product that doesn't necessarily rely on the same, uh thing. So, uh,
Privacy identity super important, but it might not be super important for your specific product
in terms of making a decision of where you're launching and and why you're launching so
On a first principles basis that you're absolutely correct
I wouldn't necessarily call chains that don't have the traction or the technology that's that that's
You know kind of central to again first principles in blockchain
being necessarily the driving force for
Proper product market fit or support for your product to get product market fit
So I think there are more layers, um
But always appreciate it. Terry, uh isaac
I'm not sure i've had you up before. Uh, you have thoughts any
Just one thing I just came to
Go ahead. Terry. I just came to spew my hatred and and my rant, but I actually have a life
I'm not a total nerd. So I gotta go and do some valentine's thing
Uh, but as always i'm i'm really really happy to come here and be allowed to you know
uh use this uh this space as a punching ball and uh and and trying to
Drop as much as truth bombs as uh as it is and hopefully i'll get one of them, right?
Yeah, so thanks again guys. I gotta go
Thanks, everyone. By the way for those who are new to web 3, um, he was soft flexing that he actually has a girlfriend
That's what that's what he was saying because most of you dgens do not
and so when he said he has a real life what he really meant is
Is that he's a degenerate piece of shit crypto person, but he does have somebody who relies on him
Don't make that person happy
Thanks, terry isaac welcome brother. How you doing?
I've been uh, by the way, i've been married for 10 years so better than a girlfriend doing good in the crypto dgen space for sure
Yeah, so I mean I actually so I
I mean wait, so what that really means what that really means isaac you've been in crypto for a good six eight years
Oh gosh, i've been involved
Yeah, yeah, maybe since since 2017
Uh a good amount I guess what i was trying to say what i was trying to say is most of the crypto people you see
Arguably and so they're still building they're still trying to build their wealth
So they don't have girlfriends yet because all they do is sort of five screens at a time
Um, oh geez, good to have girlfriends. Go ahead. No worries the words. Um
Yeah, so I mean, I think like like you said it isn't nuanced
Like there's a lot that goes into the decision of what network, um that you want to choose into
But the way I kind of like to think of it is is like that quote from uh parts of the caribbean
It's like all that really matters is what a man can do and what a man can't do like
I I do think that if you want to build a product for the crypto web3 casino
Then there's nothing wrong with that. It's totally fine. And yeah community is going to play a component, right?
But if if you ultimately your goal is to take a property of web3
Apply it into the real world in a way that's meaningful and it's going to have impact
Then ultimately it's the tech that matters most because your audience is going to be you know
Like like broader than just web3 gambling uh audience, right?
And so yeah, I mean like like the capability
At that point is what's what matters most and when you think about crypto itself at the very beginning
It was just capability. It was just the ability to trade this asset
You know like between parties in a way that wasn't doable before but it had didn't have trust it didn't have
Uh a lot of like like community or anything in the very very early days when it was just crypto punks
Cyber punks and nerds way back when and then you know aetherium came about and really aetherium was like
You know, it's one millionth block had like two transactions on it like it people I think underestimate how
Long it took or felt for those in deeply involved in like like for uh for these networks to take off
I was talking to a friend of mine who is was really there from the inception
um, like like early days in aetherium and I and I had a like a
A dinner with a bunch of vcs and web 3 talking about how there's like 20 of them
Like like and they were like the only people investing in crypto and they all knew each other and they were like in the and you
Know having a specific lunch that they all remember way way way back in the early days. So
Web 3 has thrived off of capability what you can and can't do and that's why you know
I speak mainly in the icp ecosystem and involved in icp
I know people some people have paid for it. Some people don't understand it. We're we're a weird different animal
But ultimately my motivation is trying to find ways to make web 3
What what is what is icp?
It's basically the answer to the question of like
Like if you're going to make web 3 truly competitive and not need something like aws to run the internet
You need to actually answer the question of how do you have enterprise grade hardware?
That's also part of a fully decentralized network and answering that
Is something a completely different from from evm and that's what icp is. We're a decentralized cloud
Essentially, so it's like aws with no Jeff Bezos
No providers and data centers all over the world and then what a note is an icp is completely different than what a note is
And other networks notes have no power is
Uh, what do you mean by d-pen? I'm not familiar with what you're asking. It's a
Yeah, so you're saying i'm sorry, uh, you don't need uh, you're you're explaining that
You don't need electricity. Go ahead, please. No, no, no
Uh, yeah, you do need electricity, but like our nodes are in data centers all over the world and they're enterprise grade servers
I would say cheaper for to to make a profitable, uh, like like our nodes are vendors. Basically
They're like vendors of a dao that controls the protocol
So there's no this thing as hard forks the nodes can't control and see the code that's running on their machines in the same way
All the way from the hardware layer up
it's an l1 blockchain protocol designed to
Be as performant as aws. So you have we have like two second latency and you can serve websites and front ends directly on chain
You can have smart contracts that
submit native transactions on bitcoin and ethereum
with no connectors like infura fully decentralized with private keys that no human gets access to so it's essentially like
Automated actors on any other chain
And it's it's bridgeless because the bridge you usually have to build a bit of the bridge on both
Chains and it meets in the middle with this one. It's just like a user like from bitcoin's perspective or ethereum's perspective
It's just a user's domain of transaction, but it's actually a decentralized smart contract on icp
Um, so it's a really interesting network and it's very it's very much pragmatic, right?
And some people in web3 like before we had a 3x price pump a few months ago
Most people didn't pay attention to it too much and it was like this isn't web3 flavored enough
I doesn't it doesn't ask me to log in with metamask
There's google login and it looks and feels just like the normal internet
But like ultimately that's where we want web3 to be we want an internet that's better than the internet we have now
That's more user friendly
Where you know, it's not harder for people to use
When I first learned about icp and what they're building I like like I said, I took this pragmatic approach of like
I think web3 boils down to capability and if we can make web3 capabilities like
Enforce transparency verifiability verifiable transactions so we can make that accessible
Um, we can actually make web3 useful and and have it do a lot more
Than being the casino it is today, which is nothing wrong with that. Like it has its place, right? It's part of any
um, so I wanted to mention that and then I also had a quick question for evil plan here because
But before I go that is you want to comment fits at all and it's like what I said about icp or just like the approach of
No, sounds cool in the in the in between noah messaged me and said they're big
Uh internet computer protocol or whatever it is
So it just seems like something that hasn't touched my radar. Although I i've heard of of the functionality you're discussing
I've just never dug deep into it. So, uh, please feel free to hit me with any
Any any readings that could help me, uh dive in a little bit more. I mean so I work for
Cone state which we're basically like the consensus of the ic and I um, I run the venture studio there. So like
Um, it's it's a great protocol lots. I mean, I I don't want to take up over the space
Lots of things to go into I have a great relationship with noah. He actually went to our last conference last year
We we host the conference for the ego system
Um, you will hear about us on may 10th. We have oh, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. How much are you paying noah?
I wasn't informed of any of this. Yeah
And um, you know we uh, we on may 10th, we have a huge global event happening
So it's going to be like an all day long live stream with dozens of influencers from web from web3 and and uh meetups
All over the world several thousand people meeting in person and prizes. It's gonna be a huge deal
So everybody will hear about it soon
But um, we're number 16 on point market cap. So you can just look it up ICP, uh internet computer protocol
Um, but you know, there's a lot of interesting challenges within my favorite one of them building games
And I joined the space when we were listening to evil plan talk about his game
I found it really interesting lots of aspects of it
um, i'm looking at the faq here and
It's basically sounds like like you said it's a game of skill, right? Like like and whoever mints first
How are you defending against bots because like bots are going to be more effective than humans and just about any scenario
And since this is all on chain, I like I know for I can write solidity like I know I could
Interface connection with the evn blockchain through infura and make a bot that's going to click claim
Faster than any human ever could and always win
So like how are you defending against that if you're making a fully on chain game really quick before he responds
Speaking of bots the shit coin that fidgetl told me to buy
Uh at the beginning of the space I ended up buying it
And it got front run by a fucking bot. So
I bought it like five percent higher or something
Maybe no, I think I bought it like 10 higher than I was actually trying to fucking buy it for
This is stupid fucking name and friend
Mike, you're welcome. Sure. Um, I appreciate the question
Uh, what I would say is that the way to think about this
Is kind of like what I was saying before about how the blockchain is the game engine, right?
Like there's no separation. So this is not about integrating blockchain in a game engine
Like the blockchain actually is the game engine, right?
So all the things that are operative in a blockchain are operative here. Like for example, you can't double spend right?
uh, if you try to do something that is um
Um, let's say misaligned with the current state your transaction is going to revert, right? So
Uh, this game is designed expecting people to play with things like bots, right?
Like it's like it's at a very high level
Like this wasn't like oh we designed this game and oh, no
What are we gonna do about bots like that? That wasn't it
It was it was actually the exact opposite, right?
So there's a couple different things like the first is that to even begin to claim you have to go through a commit reveal scheme
Uh every single round to activate your wallet
um, and then beyond that there's a uh, there's basically like a cumulative hash that's going on that's
That's increasing the entropy in addition to prevarow a prevarandau, which is also kind of a like kind of factor that
Bots are not going to advantage yourself with but then lastly like the thing to understand is that inside a single transaction
Like inside the claim transaction, like what's actually happening, right?
So we're taking an nft that you own right in in some wallet and we're looking and saying, okay
Do you own this nft? Has it already been claimed? Uh, has it already been burned and you know
And a bunch of other kind of like checks along those lines
Assuming that all of those checks pass, right?
Uh, and and it doesn't and the transaction doesn't revert for any of those reasons
We're then selecting another nft at random, right? And then actually burning it and
There are a series of checks around that as well, right?
Like has this thing already been selected to be burned? It has already been burned, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
So the thing is the the l1 the blockchain is guaranteed is guaranteeing consistent state
Like this is the the whole fucking point, right? Like, I mean, i'm not telling you anything
You don't know but i'm just saying like it was the whole point, right? The whole point of double spend
So the idea is that like even if you play this with a bot, uh, and you know, you you
I I kind of I part okay to be honest. He doesn't want to comment on this because it's like
No, no, no, no not at all. It's it's not that it's that I don't I want people to discover the strategies on their own
It's it's not about you being you know, it's like I don't want to be like
Oh, here's how I think the game should be played or whatever. Right? Like I think it's fun to strategize
but what i'll just say is that like
Okay, so i'll say i'll say two things
Let's say that you have a thousand tokens. Okay, and I have one token
That you are gonna burn my token when you claim right? It is one in a thousand, right?
Like conversely if i'm claiming what is the likelihood that i'm gonna burn one of your tokens, right? Pretty good
Right, like pretty good because you have a thousand of them and I have one
So there is balance between these two things. The second thing I would say is that like let's say that you were to
You know flood a bunch of flood a bunch of transactions and just try to like overwhelm right or whatever you're trying to do
Yeah, like in that situation
If you think about it, right because the transactions in a blockchain ultimately speaking have to be ordered and time sequenced, right?
It's very possible that if you're burning your own tokens or burning tokens or claiming tokens or whatever you're doing
That's causing reversion what you're going to end up with is basically just burning a bunch of gas
Right. So like you can build a bot to play it, but the bot has to play nice
If that makes sense, right like the advantages to playing with the bot are I would say somewhat mitigated number one
The whole idea here is that this is a game about like, how do you get better at burn it down, right?
I would say you get better at burn it down by
Understanding the blockchain better, right? Like if that makes sense, like that's the skill, right? Like, how does the blockchain work?
Access to tools or advantage like um in in sports, right?
Why do we why do not we but like why does the olympics for example say that we don't want doping, right?
They don't want doping because what they're saying is, you know
If digital is is all doped up and he's going super fucking fast because he took this thing
But like all the other players were told not to do that, right then they're at a disadvantage relative to him
Sorry, I didn't mean to pick on you but like, you know anyone right so so your it's it's unequal access
To an advantage here. There is no such thing, right?
If you wanted to run a bot go ahead if francisco wants to run a bot go ahead if digital wants to run a bot
That's great, right? Like you can all do it or not do it. It's totally up to you
You know, and so what i'm saying is that both the both the advantages and disadvantages are mitigated, but at the same time
Uh, it's not about having permission access or exclusive access to a certain thing
So I do like like the aspect of well, first off and just you know when it comes to evm
I I know some people from other chains
Like criticize ethereum's gas fees. Um, I I think that the gas fees are a feature
Not a bug because like because ICP is the animal that it is and everything's 100 percent
I kind of wouldn't want it to be like free if it could be free because like a lot of evil stuff could be built on it
and also if you like if you look at values like like
Like nfts on chains that have high gas costs actually just cost more like I don't know there's a functional aspect
To the gas and i'm coming from ICP where we have the reverse gas model
The smart contract basically has its own wallet and pays for its own gas. The users don't have to pay for it
I think each chain has its own place, right?
And there's like i'm really much pro multi-chain and I think I think the multi-chain world
Needs to be abstracted away from the user to be very pragmatic
But like I think every chain has their own use cases. I do like what you said about
Um the consensus mechanism being the gaming mechanism. There's a game I saw
On ICP where we have a two second consensus delay
So like it's like it's 200 milliseconds to pull a web page if you're just reading
But if you're writing to the chain, it's one second and one second for it to get back. So
They changed that two seconds
Um, they they made that into a game mechanic the two second consensus delay
Where you were like a fortnight is like a fortnight clone like a 2d fortnight game
And you decide where your character walks, but while your character is walking all the other characters are also walking
And it's all happening at the same time because it's concurrent consensus of two second delay
So the actual two second delay was part of the strategic uncertainty of where you're going to be and where your opponent's going to be
And making sure that you're shooting in the right direction
And it's like really clever to see like that done
So I do like the idea of games that that utilize that but I was just curious
I mean it basically amounts to the fact that like
You know, I think at certain points
There'll be enough bots where a human will probably not not be smart to play this without being about themselves or you know
Whatever, but I digress. Um, i'll hand it back to fidgetle. So like i'll let you let you I didn't want like I said
I didn't want to be very i'll just want to ask the question to kind of you know, introduce some dynamics there
I'll just just to comment very quickly on kind of the gas thing because I think it's I think it's super important
So so there's a couple aspects of this one is um, you know from my perspective
The blockchain is the game mechanic which also means that like gas is a game mechanic like we're that's very
Right. So, you know, you can imagine that as the as the game narrows down
Uh, let's say there's there's just two players left, right?
Like that is pretty much a race to the finish
But the question that you have to ask yourself at that point is how much gas is my opponent willing to spend?
Like like like the point about a game by the way, just just to be clear for everyone is that it's not supposed to be
Uh, like a a hyper predictive
Deterministic mechanism right like you're not supposed to say if I do this then I win if I do that then I lose right like that's
Not how how a good game should be designed in this context, right? This is a game show
So the idea is you want there to be some deliberation you want there to be some stress?
You know you want there to be a lot of unknowns about what the other players are going to do or how they're going to act
You know, so for example, you may get emergent behavior, which I I would expect where for example, let's say you have a
I don't know like you know, you're down to 10 players, right?
So maybe though maybe one of those players reaches out to the others and says hey
uh, you know, I've tracked you guys down on chain or whatever and i'm going to
I suggest we all split the prize by entering into a multisig right before the beginning of the next round
Now maybe eight of them do that two of them don't you know, but that's what makes this game kind of fun, right?
so I think that those I think it's just important to kind of keep in mind that some of these unknowns and some of the
Will people do this or will they will they do that? Will they use the bot or not?
Like that is what makes in my view this game exciting and fun
The other thing i'll say is that uh, you know, the gas itself on the contract is very very optimized, right?
So, you know, we expect a claim under normal gas conditions being somewhere between let's say, you know, 20 to 30 plus
You know, we're looking at a roughly I think it's it's like 10 to 15 dollars in gas per claim
But the key is that only the winners are paying gas, right?
So you're paying gas on these tokens incrementally as they progress through the game
You're not paying gas on tokens that have been eliminated, right?
And as that and and that is offset against the value of the token
Exponentially increasing or doubling every time, right?
So in other words, you're paying ten dollars to claim a token that's worth 40
Then you're paying ten to pay a token on a token that's worth 80
160 360, you know 320 640 and so on and so forth, right?
So, you know when you look at that, I mean if you look at it financially the gas is actually being amortized down
But it's also important to some degree in my view that it's there
Right, like you do want there to be this element of competition between players whether those players are human or not
You know in terms of like how are you thinking about the blockchain? How are you thinking about congestion?
How are you thinking about you know your own transactions and so forth?
I personally think that this is very very exciting
I will say one other thing and then i'll hand it over to fidgetl and by the way
I appreciate you guys giving me so much time on the stage for this
I'll just say one other thing
It's really important to me
People understand this is not a game for web2 people
Right, like it's just not it's not a game for normies. This is a game for us
This is a game for people in crypto who like crypto and want to play a crypto game
Right. There are many many many many other web3 games like pretty much all the other web3 games
That are that are focused on people who are not in crypto people who don't understand what a wallet is or whatever, right?
That's great. We're also building those kinds of games, but I wanted to build one game
Right that was unique that could not be replicated outside of web3
That there was no web2 version possible
Right because I believe that is part of the key to how we are actually going to get mass adoption
Right if you think about disneyland
When you go to disneyland or disney world you spend the majority of your time waiting in line
Not on rides not eating not having fun. Just waiting in line
Hours and hours and hours of waiting in line, right?
Why are you waiting in line so many hours because that's the only place in the world that you can go on those rides
That's it. You want to go on those rides. You got to wait in line. You got to be in disney world
I think that we need to be building products like that in web3
Products where the only place in the world you can have these experiences whether that's a fair permissionless game
Like burn it down and you can win millions of dollars fairly
And instantly or it's a dapp or whatever it is
But we have to be building those kinds of products
Not products that are just centralized or permissioned or you know
Are you know require trusted third parties and blah blah blah if all the products we build compromise the blockchain?
This this dream of mass adoption. It's going to take forever
It's going to take forever, right because people are going to look at whatever we're doing and they're going to say I don't get it
You're doing the same thing that the other guys were doing but you just made it like way more fucking complicated
Like what in the fuck is the point of that?
Right and that for me, I think that's why I think products like burn it down are so important
I think it's important that whether it's burn it down or not
But I think it's important we support them
And I think it's important that we highlight them because these kinds of use cases are what are going to bring people in
They're going to be like fuck man
I can't play a fair game in web 2 because reasons and centralization and cheating and rigging and all this other stuff
But holy shit, I can come into web 3 and I can win millions of dollars and it's completely fair like sign me up
Like if you don't mind I would
I disagree with the path towards mass adoption that you kind of laid out. I just don't think that that's the case
So like you took steve jobs as an example before and how he innovated by selling benefits, right?
He didn't make using a phone shittier
Like it should be the future where mass adoption happens
It happens when somebody doesn't even realize they're on web 3 they don't have to be sold on the centralization and all these values
The nerds behind it understand the tech they understand it's working. But from their perspective
They're getting a better experience that provides more of what they care about and that's it, right?
And that's how normal people not every person in the world is going to convert to a web 3 nerd
And we know that and that's fine, but we want web 3 to change the whole world. So it has to be something
I was going to say respectfully i'll just agree but i'll just clarify something for you before you continue
So what i'm saying not that web 3 should be hard
Right. I think wallets are going to get easier to use
I think a lot of the friction points are going to get softened and sanded away
What i'm saying is that the use cases have to also be there, right?
You can't you can't just build a you know
A functional equivalent of a of an atm machine except it's crypto and be like everybody get real excited about this crypto atm
Machine they're going to be like I already have an atm machine. It already gives me cash. It already does what I want, right?
That's that's my point is that it's you're right that it's not it's not hey everybody gets excited about the word decentralization
Right. It's hey everybody. Look at what decentralization can accomplish
Right. Look at it. Like as an example look at burn it down. That's what it means if you decentralize a game
That's what it means if you make it trustless and permissionless, right?
Like i'm saying those words to you guys because you know what those words are
But i'm saying if I was talking to some other person what I would talk about is this is a game that cannot be rigged
It cannot be manipulated. You can do these in-game trading mechanics that are super cool, right?
And your prizes are instant
That's my point about features versus benefits and kind of what I mean about mass adoption, right?
You can't guarantee that stuff in web 2 and that's my point
Yeah, fair enough, you know, I'm basically I think it's aligned then yeah, but I mean, yeah, it's an interesting topic
So I don't want to derail it because like like what is how web3 mass adoption is going to be achieved
I think it's a topic in and of itself and this one was focusing on choosing your web3 ecosystem
but I guess how it applies to this topic would be
You know, what role is your adapt going to play?
Like are you get is your audience going to be other web3 agents totally fine?
And that's going to you know mean mean that you're going to have to prioritize the community and where the dgens are and and that's
Or are you doing one trying to take the harder route?
And there are dApps working on that where like we want to work at the intersection of web3 and web2
And in that case, you have to be really pragmatic about like how are you going to make it so that web2 person can be easily accepted
And so I get what you're saying with your dApp, you know, it's got its purpose totally own it. That's great
I actually love the fact that it's very clearly adapt just for the web3 audience and that's that's awesome
We have social media dApps that are trying to look and feel like x like twitter
You know that like really natively and it's not be weird so that anybody can use it and feel comfortable using it
And then we have one that's been taking off like crazy called tagger
That's like really nerdy and harder to use and it's very much for the people who love web3 stuff
And like the whole thing is run by a dao that's within its own
social media platform and
You know some people are making 1500 a month and it's like a gambling thing
It costs money to post and it costs and you get money back if your post goes viral. So like
Like yeah, you know, we need our web3 flavored things. We need our web2 flavored web3 things, you know
It's going to be part of the journey ahead
This is a good stopping point. Uh
Great space good conversation smaller panel than usual, but as always thought provoking discourse, which is what we're about
Yeah, if it was going to go to eth denver in a few weeks ping me in dm's i'll be there and
Let me see. What else i'm gonna I gotta get my other phone to close this out. Well while we're on
While we're on. Um, so what are the the next events that are coming up?
Obviously, I can't do eat denver. I'll i'm gonna be in vietnam at that time
But what what are the next things?
You're gonna beat denver nfp nft.nyc
fair evo later this summer
Overseas you have token 2049 you have blockchain life
There's a bunch of other ones super nft was a paris nft nft paris. So there's a lot of events coming up
Pingus if you're going to beat any of the ones I listed apart from the paris one
I don't think i'm going to that one jubai still tbd
But i'll be at the ones in the us the icp conference of course
I'm, not even saying because isaac's up here. That was one of the best conferences. No, it's because it's because they're paying you
But yeah, go ahead. No, they're not paying me. They're not they're not paying me anything. They can't pay me if they want
Icp and tokens, but anyway, uh
The isaac what is going to when is the icb conference going to be this here? Uh, yeah, it's made sense
There's going to be like six larger meetups with like 300 people plus and then it's going to be like 50 or 60 smaller ones
And so basically in most cities in the world on may 10th. It's a big virtual life
With meetups and we're going to go next year. We're going to have the normal format again like the normal conference format again
I can't talk about it yet, but let's just say
There's some a huge airdrop and some exciting news coming next month that we can't announce yet
Damn it's mic button beautiful. Okay, great. So
Stay tuned for that and mobi media community. Thank you for joining
Remember that everything you hear on this broadcast has been for educational purposes
Only nothing is financial advice be safe out there and enjoy the bull market if it comes when it comes. Bye