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CollabLand: serving 50K DAOs and 5M users towards decentralizations
Recorded: June 17, 2025 Duration: 1:00:33Space Recording
Short Summary
Collabland is revolutionizing community engagement in the crypto space with its recent token launch and innovative partnerships, paving the way for decentralized ownership and enhanced user experiences. The integration of AI into DAOs is set to transform coordination and participation, marking a significant trend in the industry.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. I apologize for the technical difficulties since like a Twitter space today is not very
stable.
If it happens again, we probably just hop on to the private version, which is Google
Meet.
Okay.
Sounds good to me.
Yeah, I think we also probably lost the recording for the first part when you discuss the introduction about the Flash and how you were actually starting with game streaming.
And then at the time, it could only be done through Flash, right?
Yeah, that was video streaming.
And so that taught me how to do Flash front-end programming.
That's before Twitch, right?
That's before...
Way predates Twitch and Discord, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So before it was called Twitch, I think it was called Justin.tv.
So Justin Khan started it.
And yeah, this is before then.
I had a startup which did,
this is before phones actually.
So you had to have a camcorder,
plug it in USB and upload.
And that's where I actually learned about early on
about Amazon.
And they had just come out with EC2 and that was really coincidental
and it was game-changing for our startup and it allowed our startup to get acquired
because we didn't have to go and get VC money in order to get servers and then go to a data center,
sign like a year agreement in the data center,
and then spend time racking and stacking computers.
We can just light up servers on demand.
And so it really changed the economics of startups.
It's massively reducing the barriers to kind of quickly build something and get it live and hosting and scale up, right?
That's right. That's right. And so when I joined Zynga, it was really interesting because I had the flash programming experience with the video streaming.
And a lot of the backend technologies were kind of the same when
it came to game and connections back then. This is even before like there was
this notion of sockets so you have to do everything via flash and with the kind of knowledge that I had when it came to EC2 and my flash programming experience, I brought that to Zynga.
And at that time, when we were launching FarmVille, it was really funny because, you know, there were a lot of there were much better games out in the market.
And this is where like the the beginning of social media.
No one really understood, at least I didn't, just how many people were on Facebook at the time, and it was growing rapidly.
What would happen is you would have these other games that were well crafted.
They had this old kind of financial model of having to get VC money, get servers, rack and stack them.
And that actually slowed the process down for growth.
And so when Facebook would throw users at these games, these games would get over capacity.
They would fall down and they would be out of commission for like a week or two.
And with that, the games would basically die.
And so, you know, I...
Because acquiring users is so hard, right?
Like user acquisition was extremely competitive amount,
different game creators and game distributors.
And then if your games are off and for like several days,
you lose your user trust, you lose access to these users,
they don't have fun.
And then you basically have to kind of ramp up or mostly most
of time you just die yeah you know back then uh virality was just a new thing with the advent of
social media so everyone was getting free distribution back then there wasn't a concept of
There wasn't a concept of being able to understand, you know, the customer acquisition costs.
So the idea of CAC was not even yet born yet.
People were just experimenting with virality.
And Facebook was really early on.
They had these hacks where they would take your contact list on your email and then just spam people.
And they were spamming the newsfeed like crazy.
And so there was a lot of the beginning of viral exploration.
And what would happen is people were just given traffic left and right for free essentially from facebook because facebook
was still in a growth mode high high growth mode and yeah what would kill a game is that it would
go down and there's so many new games coming out all the time that once your game went down it was
hard to kind of recoup so you know i wouldville, we're just, it was at the right place at the
right time. The beginning of social, we're getting free virality. We invented a bunch of viral
loops and concepts with Farmville. There was this like lost sheep mechanic back in the day. It sounds very, very, very basic now,
but it added a lot of virality at the beginning.
And there was this constraint that we had at Zyngo.
We had to get the farm bill.
We had to get the game up in eight weeks.
And so-
So it's like a short time to launch.
And also when you say up,
it's both for the short time to launch. And also when you say up, it's both for the short time to launch,
but also reliability that it has to be up and alive since starting from the launch, right?
Yeah.
Well, so we didn't know what we had.
And really, it was very simple it was just that i had eight weeks to
launch a game uh and there's no way that we could rack and stack machines and um back then the
context was there was another game called mafia wars and uh and it was an HTML button master game.
And back then, it would take at least two to three months to cycle the old Mafia Wars servers and then have them be used for Farmville.
So I was like, okay, I just came off the acquisition,
and we use EC2, let me just use this again, because it would allow us to get up and running
in our deadline. And I got a lot of pushback, because this is at the very beginning, before
the notion of cloud. And internally, people are like, you're crazy.
No one's gonna ever outsource their infrastructure.
That's just not gonna happen.
That's your main IP.
You can't trust someone else to do it for you.
But we had this deadline of eight weeks
and there's no other way to meet it.
So had a lot of arguments and fights, but then we used EC2 and we launched the game in eight weeks. The game was very basic, but what was interesting in hindsight, and we didn't plan for this, is that like the game was growing because we got free distribution.
From the game growing, we introduced these concepts of KPIs, user retention.
These notions were just beginning.
And because we didn't go down and because we were using ec2 to just light up
more servers while other more polished games with a lot more investment up front were just going
down and then they would die people were like we're gonna everyone else is playing Farmville. Why? It was really because it didn't go down. It works. It works.
And so there was this really interesting kind of psyop, I would call it, where everyone thought
everyone else was playing Farmville. So they played Farmville. Why? It's because it stayed up.
And then through that, the game was able to
progressively get better. So there's these confounding factors when it came to like not
going down, using KPIs, getting free virality from Facebook. And that I think was the,
from Facebook. And that I think was the, just being at the right place at the right time.
And, you know, for me, when I looked at like, oh, this cloud computing or this infrastructure,
there was still this notion of virtual servers that you had to manage. But I was like thinking,
virtual servers that you had to manage.
But I was like thinking,
why do you even need that kind of abstraction?
Why can't you just upload code
and just have Amazon just like run your code for you?
You don't even have to think about the infrastructure
and load balancing and all of that backend stuff.
And that is really what primed me.
I think back now in terms of why,
like Ethereum was really fascinating for me.
And back then it was this notion of the world computer
where you just upload code
and it just runs and i was like this is it this this has to be it and then from the gaming
background when it came to mechanism design and game mechanics i was like, oh, wow, this is Ethereum is just basically a the ultimate game developers environment.
You just upload code. And instead of a virtual currency that is just specific to one game, now you have crypto and you can it's like the video game is coming out into the real world and so that's kind
of what hooked me uh this was like 2016 uh into a theorem so i i don't come from uh uh like a
trader background a trading background or you know a financial engineering background. I come from it more from a coordination,
game mechanics background.
So the whole FarmVille story and my experience there is,
I think what, and I didn't know this at the time,
is really what primed me for Ethereum.
Yeah, initially I thought like,
whoa, so ColabLamb is really great, 50k of community keys and 5 million wallets.
Like that's a huge number, huge growth metrics in the blockchain world.
And just learned that it was not even the largest project that you created.
Like FirmWell is like order of magnitude larger than that right and
then you were able to use the web 3 you use the web 2 infrastructure actually yeah the beginning
of the web 2 infrastructure both facebook distribution as as well as amazon's ec2
like to the best right and then you would also amount the first one to kind of see the light of an ultimate world computer
like Ethereum, and then you migrate over
and start building this new platform.
Yeah, this fascinate, as you were talking
about the past journey, it seems like a lot
of your design philosophies and things
was actually rooted back then.
And that's what enables collab land today, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So exactly right.
So, you know, part of like, you know, my background when it came to like, you don't have to build
your own app, you know, Farmville succeeded on the kind of the shoulders of Facebook.
And so when I started Collabland, it was like kind of obvious to me, we don't have to create our own app.
We can be in Discord and in Telegram.
When I, you know, was first just looking into crypto, what was really fascinating to me, again, was from this kind of game theory perspective.
And I co-wrote the white paper for MolochDAO because I thought, well, this is the ultimate foundational, I would say, mechanism you need to help coordinate people.
Why do you have a token?
Well, it's because you have this shared asset and people have shared skin in the game.
But it was really hard to understand, like from a DAO perspective, who's actually in
the DAO and who's not.
And that's where token gating was born.
And we first started on Telegram.
There was back in the day, like in 2016, 2017, Slack actually was the main way that people in groups in crypto would coordinate.
This is before Telegram became the thing. Actually, there was this feature slash bug in Slack that allowed people
to impersonate. And so there was a lot of scams back in the day happening on Slack. So people
moved to Telegram, actually. And so that's where we started with collab land was uh token gating and telegram
and then uh because of my gaming roots and my gaming background uh i had worked previously
with jason citron who is the ceo of discord and i was like as Collabalin was growing and was only in Telegram, there was
platform risk.
So we diversified into Discord.
And so we were the first ones to not only token gate in Telegram, but also in Discord.
And then as COVID hit and the previous cycle when it came to NFTs happened at the same time,
we were able to ride off of all of that market momentum. That really is what solidified Collabland
as a market leader for Token Gating.
for token gating.
Yeah, when you begin the first journey of token gate,
and I think if I remember correctly,
you kind of coined this term of token gating, right?
Or is it like you were like the one who popularized
it's the concept of token gating, is that true?
Is that true?
Yeah, we invented token gating.
We invented token gating.
Initially, I thought of it as a way for people that are in a DAO to be able to coordinate and verify that other people that were in that channel, in Discord, were actually verified.
So you can have conversations when it came to proposals and things
like that. What was really interesting is that it also became a utility for NFTs. So people would
use the NFTs as kind of a ticket into a Discord or Telegram channel. Before NFTs, it was really interesting.
There are a lot of these crypto investment groups
that would also use Collabland
because the way that these investment groups work
is that they wanted to be able
to get as much deal flow as possible,
but not all of the investors would invest in everything that
came through, but they may pass along these slide decks and things like that. And so they wanted to
be able to try and just monetize that deal flow. So they would launch a token. And then if that
investment group had good deal flow, more people would want to get into those channels or these private groups.
And so this allowed this interesting kind of dynamic where you would want to encourage as much deal flow as possible.
would want to encourage as much deal flow as possible. I'm not an investor, so I don't know
all the intricacies, but there is this kind of gating of deal flow because if you pass on a deal
and someone else invests in it, how do you, as the investor that passed, can monetize that deal flow
because you passed on it, so there's no way to invest and reap the rewards in the future.
So they would launch a token and they would try to be selective in terms of the deal flow
and they can help monetize and share together as, you know, theoretically, the better the
deal flow, the more demand to get into these private chats.
And so that was a way to monetize.
So we got some early success with investor groups, but then the NFTs came in. And this is the first time where we saw just the kind of financial side
and the cultural aspect of communities really form.
Yeah, this is very interesting.
As you were saying that initially, people were just using it for allowing people to enter their telegrams or Discord by proving they own some tokens, right?
And then later you realize that some of the investor groups
could actually just like monetize the access to the group, right?
And I can see why that could be very useful
because in the world of investment,
all it matters is access to information, right?
And then access to a trustworthy group of people and their discussion, their opinions, the new deal.
And so, yeah, that's totally very, very valuable.
And I wouldn't be surprised that people would love to pay for entering that space.
a lot to pay for entering that space.
And then you said that people were actually start to kind of use that as they
launch NFTs and then use CollabLand's token gating features as a like utility
for their NFT, give them access, giving them additional information.
What else do they do when they do after they token gate people
into their groups?
Then did you see any interesting ways
they're organizing their groups
or any additional perks they could provide to them
once they're in that group?
Yeah, the core, I think, value prop there is exclusivity.
And that is what drives demand. The core, I think, value prop there is exclusivity.
And that is what drives demand. And so from that was born like communities,
like Bored Ape Yacht Club.
And from that, they would be able to share and access
and coordinate information together, as you said.
And it really is almost like a new version of a kind of a startup.
So you get initial financing and then you communicate in these groups.
You get exclusive access.
A lot of these successful NFT communities also have IRL events.
And you not only are able to get access to these events,
essentially it's like IRL token gating in a way.
It's like a membership.
But there's a really interesting space here in between coordinating
and this financial
aspect.
It creates this interesting dynamic where you have this asset and it's either going
to go up or down in price.
You have to make a decision as someone that owns this asset. Do you want to
keep it and stay in this group? Or do you want to like sell it and leave? And so there are a lot of
speculators, obviously, that don't care about community. But oftentimes, those that are in the
community, you know, it's a psychological effect where you're like, oh, I have this asset,
I want it to go up. So I'm going to contribute to the community in a meaningful way. And so in that
aspect, it's almost like you're working for that group or that community, or you're all have this,
or that community, you're all have this, you know, shared incentive or, you know, skin in the game.
And you have to make a decision as a member, is it still worth my effort and my time? Stay in the
group? Should I add more value? Should I leave? Or should I just like, hold it and see where this community goes. So it's an online dynamic
that only tokenized communities really have.
And it's interesting because when you add in this financial incentive,
it changes the nature of community organization.
And that is highly fascinating to me
because it's almost like what a startup would do, essentially.
But a lot of these communities are loosely based
and it's ad hoc kind of help.
So in that way, it's kind of like if you're a developer,
like open source development,
but with this, you have a financial stake,
whereas in open source development,
you're just doing it to contribute to the project and you may get,
you know, intellectual satisfaction out of it. But here you have this extra financial
benefit potentially. And so it's this really interesting balance between being able to be part of a community
because you are aligned from a values perspective, but then also you have this financial component.
And sometimes they work really well together, and sometimes they work against each other.
And sometimes they work against each other. And I think that, you know, with tokens and online tokenized communities, we're just learning these different social aspects of what it means to be, you know, part of these communities because of that financial dimension that you didn't see before crypto.
Yeah.
I think one of the concepts that you, that is very deep in your, as I understand it is very deep in your philosophy is called incentive alignment.
I think you've mentioned it on multiple occasions.
Is that like related here as we talk about financial incentive and then
maybe the sense of belonging incentive as well? Yeah, I think ultimately, kind of the root
hypothesis or the core hypothesis for me is crypto isn't so much just a financial instrument. It is what allows people to align and coordinate toward a common goal.
And the financial aspect is what is the economic engine to allow for further coordination.
What I've come to learn over time, and if you've seen crypto over the
years, a lot of it is just like speculation. And I think speculation, and I've gone back and forth
on it, I really look down on kind of the casino aspect and the speculation aspect of crypto because there's just
so many scams and just so much hype and uh people lose sight of what is the potential for coordination
and they look at it only from like the short- perspective of, you know, let me get in as early as I can and then dump and make some money and then just rinse and repeat.
And this is where you see people just like day trading coins all the time.
that it is actually one of the first signs or the beginnings of what you need in order to
have coordination. So the token is, and like these TGE events are basically allowing you to,
as a group, get attention. But what happens is a bunch of these projects,
majority of them fall short after that
because all they are looking for
is that initial attention
and then they dump and then move on.
You see this not only with NFTs,
but like with meme coins and things like that.
What I think over the years
that I've come to learn
is that the attention is just the beginning.
And with attention, you have the potential
to form alignment.
And this is where like community formation,
value alignment is important.
And with attention comes the ability to coordinate
and so that's what we're working on right now at collab land so you know we've just celebrated our
fifth anniversary uh last month and uh we've seen a lot of these communities come and go. A lot of communities
have grown and a few of them have staying power. And so what we are looking at in terms of the
next phase for Collabland is what can we do to help these communities stay coordinated?
And when we take a step back and we look at Collabland, we see Collabland is read-only.
So we do token gating, right?
So people will do whatever they're doing to launch a token and market it and all of
that. And then they use Collabland to then form these groups. What we're looking at in terms of
as we move forward with Collabland 2.0, I would call it, is can we help coordinate these communities and have them stay in chat?
So we recently launched a feature in Collabland called Smart Tag, where you can have self-sovereign asset ownership without having to leave discord.
And we're going to launch in telegrams soon.
And then we have the ability to actually launch this on X through a feature called X cards.
And in this way, we can actually allow for in-chat on-chain transactions.
And this is this next phase of how do we keep communities engaged on-chain.
Does this spell smart tags, T-A-G?
Yeah, S-M-A-R-T-T-A-G. Yeah, smart tags T a G yeah S M a R T T a G yeah smart tags yeah I think you one of the philosophy you
have is like these toolings should be the plumbing or the water tube for communities right and then
smart tags or is just one of the newer example of the features can Can you tell us a little bit more about the smart tags
and what it enables people to do?
Yeah, we're really excited about smart tag.
Essentially what you can do is you use a slash command.
So we're rolling this out to some exclusive communities.
Now you can join the Collabland Discord server
and you can test it out.
And what it does essentially
is give a user a smart account.
And based off of your Discord ID,
we can, in a self-sovereign way,
we've been working with other projects
for this infrastructure.
So we work with Lit Protocol and MetaMask for this.
And what this allows us, what allows a user to do
is essentially send tokens
by just tagging their Discord username.
So this solves the onboarding issue
where what we've seen over the last five years
just repeatedly is that people can join a Discord
and a Telegram, but it's hard for them
to be able to acquire a wallet.
And even when they have a wallet,
they have to have the base token of the chain in order to pay for gas.
So they need not only like the NFT, but they also need the gas token.
So people get confused.
One, how do you fund your wallet? And then two, I can't just send back and forth the NFT or
the ERC20 token I want. I have to have this second token. So with Smart Tag, we remove all of that
complexity so that you can receive tokens. So in the Collabland Discord, you can send and receive Collab token. And the
Collab token is also what is used to pay for gas. So there are a couple of technologies that have
been recently implemented in Ethereum. So just to get a little bit technical, it's EIP 4337 and...
Account Abstractions?
Account Abstraction. And there is other EIPs 7710, 7715, and 7702. These are just technical specifications that make it easy to send back and forth tokens
and allow people to have what is called smart accounts. If you look back at the history of Ethereum, Vitalik wanted to have a smart account system at the very
beginning or the onset of Ethereum, but that never happened.
And so we ended up with what people call EOAs, externally owned accounts.
Essentially what you think of when you think of a wallet, you think of these EOAs where you have a wallet and then you manage your own private key. So with this new technology,
it's taken about nine or 10 years for it to actually come out since Ethereum started.
We take advantage of that and just make onboarding essentially seamless.
So it makes the onboarding much, much easier without people have to solve this
problem of bootstrapping their accounts with this one token and another token which like natively for ethereum it's the eth and then also the nft or
other erc 721 erc 20 people needs to receive right you just make it like you human beings should not
be worried about all these other complexities they should just like do what what they need to do what
they want to do and technology just should sort of uh should sort out how to get that done basically
yeah yeah over the years what we've seen especially uh with ethereum is that it's
actually gotten even more complex so the theorem roadmap has changed a bit. You have, instead of mainnet and all these shards to help with the scaling
issue of Ethereum, the Ethereum roadmap has altered. Now you see a bunch of what they call
layer twos or L2s. And so that adds even more complexity. So if you have an L2, not only do you need to be able to have your
ETH mainnet asset, this NFT or this ERC20 might be on an L2. So now as a user, you actually have
to bridge your mainnet ETH to an L2 and purchase the gas token of the l2 and then once you have the l2 gas token then
you can buy the asset on the l2 so now you have three assets that you have to deal with
and so it gets even more complex and more fragmented. So now you have assets on multiple chains,
and it just, it becomes a burden. It becomes more difficult from like a cognitive load for a user to
be able to understand all of this. And this is antithetical to making it easy. But what's really interesting is that we have at the same time the rise of AI and
AI agents. And what's interesting about AI and AI agents is that they are predominantly chat-based.
They are predominantly chat based.
And when I take a step back and I look at Collabland,
we're in Discord and then we're on Telegram and chat is native.
These platforms treat bots or agents as first class citizens as well.
So what we're looking at is,
can we use AI to help simplify
not only the onboarding,
but the bridging and the swapping
and the assets across these different L2s as well?
So we're looking at,
and the beginning of smart tag is also the entry point for agents as well to help reduce that complexity. asset for the gas token and then like the actual NFT or ERC-20 that you want on this L2,
you can just ask an AI agent in chat to do this work for you. And so we think that AI,
these agents will actually help reduce complexity as well. That comes with another set of trade-offs
where now how do you know how to trust that agent with your funds? So we've been working
at Collabland not only on this in-chat on-chain infrastructure and technology, because it's taken a while to make sure that we do this right,
that our values are aligned in terms of not losing sight.
This needs to be self-sovereign, else what's the point of crypto?
But we also see that these values also have to permeate when it comes to if we're going
to make agents allow people to be able to transact on the user's behalf, how do we keep that safe
and secure? So it's been quite a journey from just the beginnings of token gating and coordination
for those that have a shared asset to talk freely with one another to now evolving to where the the market is at right now with L2s and how do we keep things simple for users but also safe and secure
yeah it's amazing that it has evolved so far and then you've been through this um
And you've been through this post-COVID time.
And I believe in the beginning, Collabland was just called Collab 19, right?
And then all the way here to when you support that many DAOs and communities
and then also found that AI on the horizon rising up is like text-based native.
And so you can use it to even further solve the problems of onboarding, solve the problem
of reducing frictions and make it easy for human beings to communicate.
I'm wondering, one thing that I've always been interested is also like your, what you see, where you see like Collabland going like 2.0 is the word you said is like another major milestones down the road, but also like what direction you're going on. And there's one thing I found out in 2023, you decided that Collabland should
actually do very different way. It should exist in a very different way than most companies,
right? And which you use the term exit to community, right? And then it becomes a
Colorado registered cooperative. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah.
You know, we always, always thought of Collabland as like a public good.
And how do we create a system that can be owned by the token holders? So first you have to have a token.
So we launched the token in 2023. It was a pure 100% retroactive distribution.
active distribution. So we didn't do the typical games that you see. I didn't want this to
just be just another speculative asset. And I think we've proven that over the years. You know, we are still growing. We needed to be able to have a legal entity,
though, that this could operate under. And the Colorado Co-op or LCA was the ideal
ideal legal entity structure. We actually followed in the footsteps of ETH Denver.
So ETH Denver is also an LCA under SPORC and SPORCDAO. And I've been in many conversations with John Poller, who runs Eat Denver, which is the largest Ethereum-based hackathon in the world, essentially.
And we're looking to see how we can actually have the organization be decentralized.
So right now, Collabland is centralized, but we are setting the foundations to decentralize.
We know, I didn't think that decentralizing an organization would be an overnight thing.
So we are about two years,
a little bit more than two years into it. And we are progressively decentralizing. There
wasn't the tech two years ago that existed to be able to fully decentralize. However, it's quite surprising
to me how quickly the ecosystem and the industry has evolved. And I think that we have the
beginning pieces of being able to decentralize CollabLine. And we're in active talks with different projects
and technologies to help us decentralize.
And that's still the goal for CollabLine
is to be fully decentralized
so that anyone can enjoy token gating.
that anyone can enjoy token gating.
And we don't accrue just all of this knowledge and data,
but that it can be owned by those
that are actually using the technology.
I think that's the ultimate form of organization
that only crypto can allow. And I also think now with the advent of AI, and I can talk about my experience with DAOs in general, and how the industry is evolving quickly.
and how the industry is evolving quickly.
It's really fascinating to see.
And I think that AI is going to be part of the answer,
technically, for Collabland to decentralize.
Yeah, you mentioned that ultimately Collabland want to decentralize,
but it will not happen overnight it needs the tool
it needs to the tools and infrastructure to be able to support its decentralization
you saw you were very happy to see many developments including AI in the past a few
months or maybe a year or so and then you what are the few things that you think really helped,
um, moving, uh, the needles of decentralizing club land?
And if you have opportunity to tell, uh, to, to, to, to serve in the power
of other builders, what do you see is still need to be built uh for
the purpose of decentralization as well like what are the progress you've seen you're happy with
and also what's need to be built down the road as well yeah just to give some context, when it comes to decentralized organization, you know, I helped write the, co-write the white paper for Moloch, DAO.
So we have five plus years of looking at how what we thought DAOs could empower, what went right and what went wrong.
naive, the thinking was that, at least I had, because I assumed that if you had financial
alignment and values alignment, then that would be what drives the growth of a DAO. But in reality, what you see most of the time is that the coordination tools
to disseminate information and to align just random people on the internet, just purely based off of a financial incentive, actually, for most cases, causes bureaucracy.
And so you see these DAOs start up with a lot of momentum, enthusiasm, and energy and they have these huge treasuries but then you get lost in humans like
you know having their own motivations there are very simple issues
when it comes to even like presenting proposals or even delegating your DAO voting power to delegates
and the UI and who's shown as first page delegates
often become very powerful in a DAO.
And so the way I think about it now, as well, and part of
this kind of new refreshed perspective when it comes to AI is, can you use AI in a way to help reduce coordination, summarize proposals, be a proxy for you.
But that also leads to other types of trade-offs where, for example,
if you just allow your AI to vote on your behalf because it knows who you are,
let's say, perfectly.
I mean, that's, it's not possible, but let's just assume like an AI knows you
perfectly and can vote on your behalf. Well, the AI learns and you don't. And so you may lose track
of what's going on in a DAO even. And so there are a lot of issues to confront when it comes to
a lot of issues to confront when it comes to AI and DAOs, but the way I look at the use of AI
is the ability for these agents in a community and in a DAO to effectively be ideally ideally a mirror for the community so that you can easily get sentiment, be able to summarize,
and instead of getting overwhelmed and not being able to be in more than three or four DAOs,
can you use AI tooling so that you can extend your influence through AI and the optimizations and the efficiencies
that AI can provide in terms of summaries and suggestions.
So instead of being in three or four DAOs,
maybe you can be in 10 different DAOs
and spread your influence.
So these are the new emerging opportunities
the new like emerging opportunities that, you know,
everyone is on the same level playing field.
And the only difference is that, you know,
those that are actually using the technology and getting their hands dirty
with it are the ones that are going to be able to learn how to use it.
And so, you know, it's a very interesting time in this intersection of AI and crypto.
A lot of people, you know, default to thinking about AI as just giving trading bots to the
masses.
So instead of having to be a quant engineer or a trading expert and know all these algorithms and being able to program your own trading bot, you can use natural language to be able to do that.
But I think that there's a deeper coordination alignment perspective that I'm interested in when it comes to AI and crypto. Yeah, that's really going to be helpful.
Just like you said, human beings have its capacity limitations,
and you probably could just only participate to a group,
a small number of DAOs effectively.
With AI's help, maybe
you instead, of course, instead of letting AI vote on your behalf, and then you practically
detach from the real information, detach from the real decisions, you're actually using AI as a
facilitator to help you summarize, to give you a recommendation based on your prior reference, et cetera, to allow people to be, to more effectively participate in DAOs,
but also participate in more DAOs.
Yeah.
And then can these DAOs use AI to coordinate with each other?
Right.
You mean between, do you mean between DAOs or within the DAO?
Between DAO. Yeah. So I think that there's going to be this kind of digital twin version of you being able to, you know, delegate some of the work to your digital twin.
delegate some of the work to your digital twin.
There'll be agents that are in the DAO themselves.
So you'll have multi-agents within a DAO.
And then these multi-agents will be in several DAOs.
So you'll have these multi-DAO agents as well.
And can those get networked in a meaningful way? And I think that is what
will be interesting, not just to help coordinate within a DAO and have multiple agents do different
things within a DAO, but have different DAOs also coordinate with each other. So you have like a network of DAOs.
I think that is really when it's going to,
you can get exponential
and you can see massive coordination reduction
and alignment events happening.
But, you know, based off of the previous experience I've had with DAOs,
it will probably be a bit messy and not as straightforward. But with the just incredible
innovation pace that we're seeing in AI, it seems like every like six to nine months, there's a step change in what an AI can do.
I think that we're just scratching the surface
of how we can use AI within tokenized communities
to help reduce coordination and increase alignment.
That's gonna be profound.
Thank you so much, James.
My pleasure.
Yeah, that's going to be very, very profound, I think.
And then it's very rare to have a friend who I can kind of talk to that has both a very deep technical micro level,
cold level understanding of gaming and token gating,
just like fundamental part of the governance,
but also to the macro and societal philosophical side of the things
so that you can actually make a real impact from the core
infrastructure that shapes the future of the world. James, I think I have a lot of inspiration
from this conversation. And I love to see how Collabland 2.0 shaped that type of future.
I really want to kind of have more conversation with you in the future as well.
Yeah, yeah.
I love chatting and I'm happy to share.
And I'm happy to share.
We should keep in touch.
We should keep in touch.
I want to know, you know, continued progress in terms of what you're doing.
I think of this as a long journey.
It is.
Naval says you want to play.
You want to play long-term games with long-term players.
That's how you have meaningful impact.
And so I thank you for inviting me on this chat here.
I know that there wasn't really a formal agenda,
but I think there's a lot to learn from one another.
And, you know, I'm just grateful for our friendship.
Yeah, so great.
All righty.
I know we're at time.
I want to be very cautious with your time as well.
So thank you for being here.
Thanks, all the friends.
Thank you, Collabland team.
And thanks, every member in the audience.
We're hoping to release this recording after editing and share with James for preview.
I think builders should meet more often and then we also serve the community of domainers.
In a sense, we're trying to build a better world with digitization, with fundamental
digital trust and shape the future of governance.
James, you're a pioneer. digitization with fundamental digital trust and shape the future of governance.
James, you're a pioneer.
We're very proud and we're very honored and grateful that you are here with us and hope to also have a future conversation with the community as well.
Awesome.
Thank you for the kind words and this has been great.
Whenever you want to chat, let me know.
I'm here. Yeah. Alrighty. Thank you. And thanks everyone been great. Whenever you want to chat, let me know. I'm here.
Yeah.
All righty.
And thanks, everyone.
Thanks.
Thanks, everybody.
