Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
⚛️ Composable Proposal to join AEZ - AtomZone #14
Recorded: Sept. 12, 2023 Duration: 0:54:30Space Recording
Full Transcription
Busy times, but it's all good, yeah.
I can imagine with Cosmovers approaching.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also like a good sign.
You know, there's a lot of demand, a lot of people want to come, a lot of excitement.
So, you know, it would be bad if there was no one interested to coming.
So, it's a happy problem to have, but still, it's very challenging.
Yeah, now there are all these announcements dropping as we approach Cosmovers.
Like, you see DCM Cosmos is live now, and there is the Cosmos sub roadmap that just dropped today.
So, everyone, feel free to check it after the podcast.
So, it's quite a busy time.
Yeah, I just saw it.
I mean, you know, the Liquid Stinky module is dropping.
The roadmap dropped.
We've got Composable proposing to join the Atom Economic Zone.
But, I don't know.
As we're waiting for Brain Jack, can you maybe talk a little bit about the roadmap?
I was actually trying to find the Composable team and just sharing that we are live.
Yeah, I will also ping them real quick.
Yeah, actually, just to quickly introduce today's episode to the community.
So, today we are back to discussing upcoming consumer chain, and we have Composable that just
shared the draft proposal on the Cosmos hub forum.
So, anyone that is in the call right now, be sure to check the forum, because there is
the draft with all the details about today's discussion.
And for anyone who is not aware, Composable is the first team to achieve IBC Beyond Cosmos.
And to be specific, they connected Cosmos support to Polkadot via IBC.
So, with a trustless bridge, which is extremely important, because this is validating Cosmos thesis
and the idea of an internet on blockchain, the interchain.
And also validating IBC as the golden standard of blockchain interoperability.
So, if now anyone is thinking if this is real, yes, it's real.
And actually, a blog that Cosmos, that network, there is a blog that basically shares how technically
Composable overcome the technical barriers to architect a trust minimized Cosmos or IBC connection.
So, pretty much a big deal, but we will definitely dive today with BrainJar and the Composable team.
So, welcome, BrainJar.
Hey, guys.
How are you?
Can you hear me all right?
Yeah, I can hear you perfectly.
Thanks for having me.
Do you want to start by introducing yourself?
We were just having an introduction to Composable.
Yeah, sure.
So, I'm BrainJar, founder of Composable, focused on extending IBC to as many ecosystems as possible.
We're the first team to put IBC in production outside of Cosmos, as you mentioned.
And next is Ethereum.
Our focus is trying to do so in the most secure way possible.
And so, you know, becoming the hubs, you know, IBC chain is definitely not only going to improve the security of how we're doing cross-ecosystem IBC,
but also try to, you know, bring some of this vision that the original Cosmos white paper had, you know, back to the hub.
I have a more, like, general question maybe to start with, because you guys have your roots in the Polkadot and, you know, substrate ecosystem, right?
So, can you maybe talk about that whole initial journey, why you chose Polkadot first, and then how and when you got really deep into Cosmos, IBC, and what really excites you?
And I guess about both ecosystems, because I personally think that there's a lot of synergies.
I think, you know, the broader crypto community considers them like competitors, and there's only one winner that's going to take it all.
So, I think it's a lot of, you know, gray zones, not necessarily black and white.
So, yeah, maybe can you talk a little bit about that on a higher level?
Yeah, absolutely.
So, at a high level, one of the core interests of Composable from day zero was, like, how to create the most secure and ecosystem agnostic way to interact with multiple different ecosystems.
And starting out in Polkadot made a lot of sense, because we were interested in exploring the highest security environment possible to do so.
And so, we started out as a parachain.
However, over time, we realized that the best sort of framework for interoperability was, in fact, IBC, trust-minimized solution that's 100% based on consensus proofs, block header verification, no random oracles or relayers or multi-sigs.
And we quickly realized that this was something we had to extend to other ecosystems if we were going to achieve this concept of having multiple chains serve as the bedrock for cross-ecosystem execution for users across any ecosystem.
And so, that sort of was the journey.
And now, I think we're taking this one step further by having our feet in both of these ecosystems, expanding to Ethereum and several L2s and other ecosystems down the line.
Using IBC, we want to provide a unified user experience, as I mentioned in the proposal, sort of all powered by IBC.
In the meantime, we are joined also by Blassie and Mad, that are part of the Composable team.
Can you please introduce yourself to the community?
Yes, I can start.
Thanks for having me.
I'm Blassie.
I've been working at Composable for a bit more than a year and a half.
I've focused initially on bridges.
So, I've been following the progress and the work of, you know, bringing IBC to different ecosystems, really working with the Interchain Foundation and, you know, just really understanding how IBC has been evolving to sort of gather new use cases.
Right now, I'm working a bit more, you know, in the entire organization scope, but still, like, very closely onto, you know, IBC and, you know, our focus on coming into Cosmos as, you know, as a sort of serious player and really leveraging everything that, you know, the space has to give us and us to give back.
So, for us, really, like, we're very excited to have this proposal to join, you know, the Economic Zone and really, you know, sort of start, kickstart our journey in the Cosmos space, potentially as a consumer chain.
Awesome.
Thank you for the introduction.
So, turning back on the Cosmos and the connection of the IBC with Polkadot, can you guys maybe have a little bit to talk about that?
Because I think that it's still not every community member is aware.
I mean, I was myself skeptical when I was aware of Cosmos connecting to Polkadot and the IBC because so far no one did that.
And when it comes to someone doing something for the first time, there is always some sort of incredulity to understand if it is possible or not.
So, can you maybe talk a little bit about that, even some of the technicals?
Yeah, I mean, go on.
No, no, go ahead, sorry.
I mean, it's been a challenging journey.
I think, you know, Brainger has more on the details of how it was at the beginning, but we actually got onto this without really, like, understanding initially how it really worked.
We got to learn, we got to, you know, to tackle this with people that helped us, you know, initially with a lot of research by ourselves.
We worked with, you know, with Strangelove, then, you know, we kind of went the path that it didn't really work with, like, sort of going through, you know, the relay that Strangelove had and, you know, sort of not trying to reinvent the wheel all the way.
But, like, you know, as we move forward, we learn more and more.
We also understood how we best operated ourselves.
So, it's like, you know, what did we need to have in order for this to work and what was the best path?
And we realized that, you know, the best way for us was to say, okay, let's reduce the dependencies on external teams, even though they were very helpful at the beginning.
The same with, you know, informal systems with IBCRS, and so that we could sort of iterate and move faster.
And that was a decision that we took that I think it kind of paid off at the beginning.
A bit longer term, we sort of been reverted that decision.
We're really trying to work closely to, you know, these teams that are doing really good work for us not to have to, you know, maintain everything.
But back in the time, we really wanted to go to market.
We really wanted to have something that sort of worked gathering just for transfers.
But as, you know, as we evolve, we really want to have more features.
We want to have, like, the full spectrum of IBC.
And that's where, you know, like, sort of joining efforts with teams that are, you know, maintaining things that we can reuse sort of is very, very, very useful.
But, you know, what definitely, I'd say, stuck from all this work, aside from, you know, our bridge and our bridges right now, and us, you know, sort of being a team that really is really invested on IBC is the relayer that we have.
So we have hyperspace.
This is something that, you know, people usually do not know.
But we have built our own relayer and we operate it.
And it is the only relayer that at the time sort of supports more than one ecosystem.
And as we progress on to more ecosystems, the journey, you know, moving forward, this is something that we're really, you know, happy and glad that we have.
Because it also, as I said before, it really helps us, you know, iterate at a faster speed.
And then, you know, people, as they choose to come in and relay and connect different ecosystems, they can choose whether they can use our technology or someone else's.
But that's a bit like, you know, the way I think it has gone for us.
And so far, we're really happy.
Yeah, and we are happy as well as ecosystem because I think it's very important for our technology and the whole interchain stack having this adoption that goes beyond Cosmos.
So really props to the Composable team for that.
In the meantime, I see that maybe Ahmad finally have been able to join and probably had some technical problem.
Can you introduce yourself, Ahmad?
Yes, happy to.
Apologies for the delay.
So my name is Ahmad.
I'm the CEO of Composable.
And essentially, a lot of my focus these days is thinking about our strategy altogether, where we go and how we go there and in what order, what we focus on and what we don't focus on.
And I think another part is driving day-to-day operations outside of tech.
So a lot of this is going to be thinking about partnerships, integrations, how do we grow our ecosystem altogether, what are some of the things that, you know, having the right partnerships in place can help us secure, and just basically how to onboard more and more protocols, users, and down-the-line builders onto the Composable ecosystem.
So I just have one question before we get into the proposal specifically, like, just on a general level, like, Ranger, you mentioned earlier a bit about your Polkadot and your Cosmos journey.
Can you talk more specifically, like, how did you witness, you know, the past year, two years of the Cosmos hub specifically?
And why, in the first place, did you even explore in thinking, like, doing this proposal makes sense, like, for us as Composable, but also for the Cosmos hub as a network and as a community?
Yeah, no, yeah, that's a great question.
So, I mean, I guess the first question is sort of, like, how did we stumble upon, how did we get into the ecosystem?
And I think the simplest answer is we became very interested in Cosmos as a whole because of the sort of, you know, we obviously started out in Polkadot.
We built, you know, we built, you know, two parachains, but we felt a little bit restricted by the nature of, you know, every chain has the same type of consensus.
Every chain must communicate with XCM and sort of felt like it was a bit of a walled-off ecosystem.
And the most obvious ecosystem to expand Polkadot to was Cosmos because it seems like they have been at odds for quite some time, like, over the past couple of years, even though there's quite a bunch of similarities between the two.
And I think as far as, like, ecosystems with robust app chain builders, these two ecosystems are our forefront.
And so when we saw that IBC was a potential way to expand interoperability between both ecosystems, this sort of drew us into Cosmos.
And later on quickly realized that in order to also most easily solve this fungibility issue of, like, having multiple different types of dot, et cetera, floating around in the ecosystem, we decided to build this sort of hub chain called the composable chain, which now is basically the main chain in Cosmos that dot flows through.
And so I guess over time, we've come to the realization that if we continue to add more ecosystems like Nier and Ethereum, they will be headquartered, you know, these connections will be, I guess, centered and headquartered on this specific chain into perpetuity.
And so I think it makes a lot of sense for Composable to, similar to how its parachains exist in a shared security environment, to have its Cosmos chain exist in a shared security environment as well.
But I think the reason why I think it makes a lot of sense for Cosmos is IBC was always envisioned to leave, to expand to other ecosystems and only one team has done it and it's our team.
And so if we want the hub to be the place that, you know, continues to expand IBC to other ecosystems and have it be the place where assets are being routed, the most sensible way is either people implement this at the hub level, which, you know, hasn't happened, or a consumer chain basically steps up to do exactly this.
And so I think the, you know, our pitch to the ecosystem is, you know, it's 2023, Cosmos has been around for quite some time and we're the first people to extend IBC to other ecosystems.
And we believe that into the future, the work we did to actually bring IBC to the Polkadot ecosystem has laid the foundation now for future expansion.
And so, so yeah.
And also just maybe for clarification, can you provide a bit more context about the whole journey and Centauri and how the Cosmos chain launch came together?
Because as of my understanding, I think Centauri is now basically emerged or evolved into what this Cosmos chain is.
And the end goal really here is to make this Cosmos chain an IBC router, not just for Polkadot, but really for pretty much every major crypto ecosystem, right?
Yeah, 100%.
100%.
So, so essentially to expand IBC, you need like clients on both sides.
And so we implemented a light client and deployed it on the parachain side.
And then we built together with ICF and Strangelove, the Wasm client, which is a new type of light client that can be used to verify consensus proofs and block headers for a variety of ecosystems based on whatever contract is living inside of this Wasm client.
And so we wrote a grandpa smart contract, put it into a Wasm client, and now the intention was, okay, you know, let's go out and get different teams to connect directly to us.
So deploy these clients on their chains.
The difficulty with that is it's, you know, this now becomes an additional module that every chain in the ecosystem needs to maintain.
And because, you know, take a team like, I don't know, Stride, for instance.
Stride's focus is liquid staking.
Their focus is not maintaining a Wasm client into perpetuity.
And so you have to do the same exact calculus when you're thinking about, okay, if IBC Ethereum and IBC Near and all these other connections go, are live,
will these ecosystems, will these different chains actually deploy these clients for these direct connections?
And my hunch, and I think so far what we've proven is it's a much faster sort of time to deployment and story to convince teams in the Cosmos ecosystem to change nothing of their stack and connect to sort of this hub chain.
And so that's how the Centauri chain, a.k.a. Composable chain, popped up, and now, you know, we intend to put every IBC connection we're doing to other ecosystems into this chain.
So, most notably, Ethereum, but several other like clients are in development right now.
I think that now, after this introduction about the technology beyond the Composable, we can start to deep dive on the proposal.
And can you guys give us an introduction of what is this draft proposal to join the Atom Economic Zone, like the major points and the vision of Composable by joining and adopting Cosmos sub-replicated security?
Yeah. Yeah, sure. So, I think, like, there's, we can talk about, you know, what Composable gets and what Composable is offering to the ecosystem.
So, what Composable gets is security, which, as mentioned before, is critical, especially if we envision this chain to be the hub for IBC expansion.
We require, you know, multi-billion dollar shared security because IBC's weakest link is the weakest chain in a path.
So, this is a very obvious sort of request that we're making in this proposal.
And then, as far as, like, what we're providing in exchange, most notably, I think, number one, you know, with a really secure bridge, the hope is that there would be more users drawn to using something like, say, a connection to Ethereum.
And so, and so, the hope is that over time, new use cases for Atom would pop up.
So, for instance, LPing Atom, ST Atom on Curve or minting yield tokens and principal tokens off of ST Atom or ST anything, really, in Pendle.
And just, like, compounding these use cases for the Atom token, I think, is a very, you know, is something that definitely the Cosmos ecosystem needs right now.
And Ethereum DeFi can certainly provide it.
And then the other components of the proposal.
So, the first is there would be a fee.
So, we have different fee cases modeled for cross-ecosystem IBC.
So, IBC within Cosmos Chains would continue to be free, IBC expansion.
There would be a cost associated with that.
There would be a revenue share with hub validators as a result of this.
And then, lastly, we have native tokens.
And we would allocate a portion of rewards to hub validators as well from our token supply.
So, there's other components in there that I won't go into, like, a ton of depth on.
But I think, for me, the biggest selling point is if we can use the composable chain, the benefits of the composable chain are, you know, cross-ecosystem, cross-pollination.
And if we can leverage these connections that this chain is providing, the hope is increasing utility for assets in this ecosystem.
Go ahead, Rob.
Okay.
No, I was thinking, I think that composable is the first one to allocate inflation to the Cosmos stuff because I think Stride is revenue still.
And this was actually part of the first draft of Interchain Security where it was talking about continuous airdrop and the consumer chain sharing this inflation to the Cosmos sub.
So, it's interesting because this is, it is a new introduction to the, for the community and for the Cosmos sub as revenue.
But at the same time, composable difference a bit as an usual chain because in this case, in this case, there will be two tokens.
Can you maybe explain what are these two tokens and if, what is the value behind the token and maybe share a little bit about that?
Yeah, sure.
So, so because we started out as a Polkadot project, we have a Kusama token and we have a Polkadot token.
What these two, what this two token model has allowed us to do is to have some flexibility as to watch what the different use cases should be for, for each network.
And so, currently everything run in the composable ecosystem is powered by the Pika token.
So, it runs our Cosmos chain.
It runs our Kusama pair chain as well.
So, and it's, it's currently live.
And the vision for the layer token is essentially what can we do once everything is connected via IBC.
And so, I've never really published any of this stuff other than in the proposal so far.
But in general, our hope is because IBC provides us with some really interesting use cases such as proof, you know, validation of proof on both sides.
And we can do interesting things like order flow distribution and order flow settlement.
And so, our interest longer term is people utilize this chain, not just as a mechanism to bridge from one ecosystem to the next, but simply as, but also as a mechanism to say, bridge and swap and bridge back and have these things.
Even if you're starting out, you're starting out, you're starting out, you're starting out in, say, Solana or some other ecosystem that we will connect in the future with IBC, you never have to leave Solana.
You submit your orders to this chain and they're sort of aggregated and settled much the same way that something like MEVShare works on, you know, on Ethereum for Flashbots.
And this also presents, I mentioned something in the proposal as well, about how relayers become a very critical component of this.
And it's true because essentially, if now you have a packet that specifies bridge and swap and a relayers relaying this to the destination chains to Ethereum, there is MEV.
That's valuable.
That's like classic pay for order flow.
And so the hope is, you know, layer becomes the focus of this ecosystem that we try to cultivate.
We call this kind of the modular supply chain for intents and PICA continues to sort of be the infrastructure token that is bootstrapping all the different components of the ecosystem currently.
Yes, in the meantime, I want to correct myself also stride the share inflation to the Cosmos sub.
So just to be precise on that.
And beyond this, this token inflation, I think that the main point here is that the Cosmos sub will act as also as a routing.
Because if Composable will become this routing between multiple ecosystem, it is now for Polkadot.
But I think that the vision of Composable goes behind also with Ethereum as announced in the beginning of the episode.
How, how, how this, this IBC routing vision will collaborate with other chain in the Atom Economic Zone ecosystem?
Like, how you see Composable actually collaborating with, with the chains, like Neutron stride that are already in the Atom Economic Zone?
I can go a bit here.
We actually are, even though we are not part of the Economic Zone, we're, we're like actively discussing proposals with, with these two teams, particularly you mentioned, you know, and like, for example, how do we bring, for instance, you know, liquid staking of DOT powered by stride?
Or, for example, how do we bring perps on, you know, that are, on Osmosis with Levana?
So how do we channel, for example, you know, DOT liquidity there?
So, so this is, I think, one of the key elements for us is how do we, you know, bring the best of each ecosystem together?
And, and that's how we see, you know, a lot of these teams that have proven really good execution, that are trusted by the community, and that, you know, have a, like a bright future forward.
We're constantly thinking, what can we bring to them to sort of add value and sort of make the, the entire cross-chain experience of, of products more, more interesting for the end user, be that it is on Cosmos or on Polkadot or on Ethereum or on NEL too.
So, so this is, you know, something that we're, you know, actively doing and, and it's part of our, our, our ethos on partnering up with, with chains and, and protocols and, and sort of bringing them together.
We, this is a bit of a, I think, something different of Composable in some way that we build infrastructure, but, but we are also invested on the end-to-end experience.
So, I personally think that one of the biggest unused weapons for the Cosmos Hub is to have, like, alignment between core contributing teams.
I feel like it's, I feel like it's now coming together really, really well.
And, you know, there's a lot of strong teams that are, you know, talking to each other.
There's a lot more coordination, I think, especially in the past six months and pretty much ever since replicated security launched.
So, my question is, moving forward, you know, let's just say, hypothetically, the proposal goes through, how do you guys aim to position yourselves, like, in the, you know, Cosmos Hub development sphere and, you know, with other teams?
You mentioned that, I think, on the product side, there's a lot of potential, but how does that work under operations, you know, behind the scenes?
How do you coordinate those things?
And how do you ensure also alignment between all these different teams?
Yeah, so, I mean, I think, I think for me, the simplest value proposition for the Cosmos ecosystem, in general, has just been IVC.
And so, like, the easy answer to this question is, we hope, essentially, you know, any Cosmos team in the ecosystem instantly get connectivity to Ethereum, Polkadot, Near, anywhere, by just connecting to a single location.
So, I think that's, like, in and of itself, a pretty powerful, like, value proposition for the ecosystem.
The sort of broader discussion, though, about, you know, how will we continue to progress over time, I think there's, like, A, continuing to expand IVC is the obvious answer, but B, I think now we also begin to start innovating at other layers of the stack, right?
So, so, so, so, so, trying to think about, okay, how can relayers become a critical part of the ecosystem?
How can users and people from other ecosystems who don't want to know anything about the Cosmos ecosystem still be able to interact with the ecosystem and with other ecosystems as well?
And so, and so, and so, I think, I think, I think for me, like, the, the fundamental thing is continuing to go to market and production with new connections so that over time, you know, together as a Cosmos ecosystem, we start to not have to rely on the likes of Layer Zero anymore to bridge to other ecosystems.
Like, sure, like, sure, it's, it's okay to use these solutions now because of, you know, the fact that the technology wasn't there yet, but the reality is the technology is at the level now where it's possible.
So, so, so excuses about, oh, yeah, you know, interoperability to other ecosystems with IBC is not possible, it's, it's completely false now.
And, like, we as an ecosystem need to also move and, you know, stop using these solutions once new solutions become available.
Before entering the community section and starting to get committee members to ask questions, another point which is quite unique that you added in the draft proposal is Cosmos sub-validators will be able to operate, to operate three-layer sidecar in our ecosystem.
Can you maybe explain to the community what are the benefits in this case?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So, so I think some other people are looking at this, like Skiff and some other teams, but essentially, you know, on Ethereum, you have these things called block builders.
And these block builders create blocks for proposers to propose on Ethereum.
And the fact of the matter is we don't actually understand the effects of cross-domain MEV yet.
And the first example of, you know, a well-studied case of cross-domain MEV will be when we launch Ethereum.
So when you launch Ethereum, IBC, and people want to bridge and swap on Uniswap, and this is in a packet that's being passed by a relayer, the relayer has the ability to submit this information to an order flow option like MEV share and be able to collect revenue as a result of this.
And, you know, you know, order flow, pay for order flow is real and is live.
And the exciting thing here is should hub validators choose to run the relayer setup that we have for Ethereum, they'll be able to capture some of this revenue.
So, and I think that this is, you know, this eventually just becomes part of a broader, you know, conversation, which is how do you continue to align providers of interoperability, in this case, the composable chain and the hub validators, with order flow options.
And I think, you know, relay, relayer sidecars is just one idea, but we have many others in the pipeline.
So, I'm also curious, like, what is happening, how is that going to play out on the Polkadot side of things?
Because as far as I know, like, you guys have two slots, the one, you know, that's already live in production with Picasso and Kusama, and then also the Polkadot slot, which I'm not sure if, I don't think you have used that one yet.
So, how does that work? And, like, moving forward, what kind of development do you have in mind for, like, on the Polkadot side?
Or does it mean that you're, like, entirely abandoning Polkadot and just fully focused on Cosmos?
So, yeah, so, we're very much still going to be using the R slots in the Polkadot ecosystem for sure.
We also deployed CosmWasm on Picasso and the composable pair chain as well.
So, you know, the intention is, at a very low level, someone who writes a CosmWasm application on the Cosmos chain could theoretically deploy into these two other locations and instantly start accessing dot liquidity.
However, I would say a lot of these sort of other pieces that I've been describing, like this supply chain discussion, et cetera, will mostly live on the Cosmos chain simply because it's closer to Ethereum as far as hops go.
We also have some other ideas for the dotSama ecosystem to explore.
You know, I had proposed in the proposal a restaking layer, so trying to find ways to improve the security of the ecosystem for applications that do not include chains.
So, you know, for things like commitments from proposers, et cetera, et cetera, I think this restaking layer could be really helpful, and Polkadot as an asset could definitely play a role in that.
I think that now we can open the community floor.
I saw that there was the fifth force that was waiting to speak, so feel free to make the request again if you are still in the space.
In the meantime, I'm bringing up some of the community concern from the forum if you're open to reply.
And the first one, I think it's the most important and probably one of the most easiest to reply, which is the trust of the ABC bridge between Cosmos and Polkadot, because besides the fact that it is introduced as a trust minimized,
can you explain actually how it works and if there are funds and user funds on the bridge or there is a multisig of everything that could basically create a point of danger for the bridge?
Yeah, so I know some people have described this as like an IBC extension or like a different flavor of IBC.
Like the reality is this connection is full-on IBC.
So we have the IBC stack written in Rust deployed on the parachain, and we have like clients on both sides.
And so the same treatment of how tokens happen, a.k.a. ICS token transfers happen, a.k.a. ICS-20 is exactly the same treatment in this case as well.
And so like all of the primitives associated with IBC are maintained in this, in how we've extended IBC to the Polkadot ecosystem.
So maybe I'll turn it to Blast if you want to go more into depth on the technical.
I mean, I think that's correct.
And in terms of risks, there is always like the smart contract risk, but everybody has.
But I mean, that's a bit like where we think sort of standing on the shoulders of giants.
You know, in this case, we're reusing a lot of the work of informal systems.
It's helpful, and again, the same part where we're leveraging the IBC Go code base.
But again, yeah, I think it's well described.
We have our own implementation of our like client, Grampa, being deployed on the Cosmos side.
We have a Tendermint like client deployed on the Polkadot side.
And that's pretty much it.
The relayer does the job of chains and packets.
So it's fully compliant for token transfers.
Great.
So I think that we can confirm that this concern is alleviated because the connection is actually trustless.
And beyond that, are you concerned or do we have maybe solution for the lack of trust from the Polkadot side?
Because so far, I think there is a lot of support on Cosmos, like even how the news has been accepted and shared.
But there is a bit of maybe they are more hesitant or they are not aware still of the technology.
So there isn't still like a strong support on the Polkadot side.
Can you maybe share a little bit how you feel about that?
Yeah.
I mean, like people don't use Dot at all in the Polkadot ecosystem for things other than staking, which is a bit disappointing.
So I think the, you know, cool use cases like perps, Dot perps or launching an NFT collection on Stargaze or like paying for things in Dot.
I think this can eventually become very interesting and people will, you know, be more supportive of these efforts over time.
I think, you know, as I mentioned before, I think Polkadot has been a very walled off community for quite some time.
There are efforts to change this.
So, so, yeah.
And I think in general, BeFi there, you know, if it's not using Dot as an asset, it's heavily reliant on wormhole assets.
And we all know that's not trust minimized.
So, so, yeah, I think the ecosystem will come around.
So, you forget what actually will drive the user to the interchange and the cosmos in general will be that here actually we have use cases for the token itself.
And, yeah, and I also want to reminder that if there is any validator right now in the space that want to ask a question about sustainability, feel free to jump on and make questions.
And this is the perfect time to address any concern.
Also, this one is probably a little bit more tough when I saw it in the forum.
So, the Composable Parachain Auction was about 60% of the total supply for how Polkadot works with the auction model, which for some community members is actually a better deal than what Composable is providing right now to the cosmos sub.
So, do you want to share what is your thoughts about this?
Yeah, I mean, so, so, like, I think the, the, I think the, the way the question was phrased is basically like when TGE for that token.
Um, and like, like, the answer is, like, we don't have a timeline yet for that.
So, like, crowd loaners will receive the rewards in due time and due course.
Um, so, so just like, you know, other points about why are we also not allocating a significant percentage of supply to the cosmos hub?
Um, well, I think in general here, like, um, the value proposition of expanding IVC to other ecosystems directly benefits cosmos quite considerably, um, more so than it would benefit the Polkadot ecosystem.
I also, so, I mean, there's two answers here, right?
The first thing is, like, this is, this is a historical relic of, um, the Polkadot ecosystem as a whole, which is actually being done away with in Polkadot 2.0, um, where there will not be, uh, crowd loan auctions, et cetera, anymore.
So, so, so teams will have to pay for short, short-term, uh, core time leases.
So, it's a much better model, I think, than, than Polkadot parachain auctions.
Um, but yeah, just like continuing my, my, my prior thought, I think overall our focus is going to be driving IVC volume and driving, and that means, you know, directly into the cosmos ecosystem.
And so, and so the hope is, A, transaction volume is large enough, um, where the revenue share is meaningful, and B, use cases of Atom are also large enough where there are just more holders of Atom in different ecosystems, um, considerably more so than, than now.
Yeah, I think that, uh, so far you are facilitated also by the fact that, uh, there aren't still competition on the, on the trustless, trustless connection between ecosystem yet behind the composable.
So, it's kind of, uh, of, uh, a first runner in this specific case.
So, that's probably why you are lighting as, uh, as, uh, as the main value driven for the cosmos sub.
Uh, Cryptozito, do you have any question?
Otherwise, uh, I, I, I, I want to add one thing.
I, I, I think, like, uh, particularly the crowd loans, the, kind of, the spirit of this has always been that, you know, you get a community that will back you up.
And I think the spirit of, of the idea of having crowd loans and getting the community highly invested, uh, is, is noble, and I, and I, I am aligned with it.
I, I think that for whatever the mechanics and the economics and how people, you know, use thought and what people expect, this has not translated into, like, you know, uh, like a fully vibrant DeFi, um, you know, uh, experience and, and economic, uh, you know, situation.
So, so that's sort of, that, that, that, that takes us to, to, to a position in which we need to, uh, um, re-imagine the, you know, the, the economics of, of how we share these things with the community in general.
Yeah, and I think that it's part of the challenges of connecting to ecosystem that, uh, even if they're now both, they are doing shared security models, the, the shared security models are actually very different.
So, uh, actually it's already, I think, quite, uh, quite more human that, uh, when it comes to the Cosmos hub, there is all this, uh, conversation that happens with the community, which, uh, only recently it's starting in the Polkadot side, like with the involvement of the community in governance, decision, and discussion.
So, I think there is, uh, still a long way to go, and, uh, I definitely hope that Composable will be successful in bringing more Polkadot users to the interchain.
Cryptozito, do you have any last thoughts or, uh, other questions?
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, specifically in this combination between Polkadot and Cosmos, because there is also history, you know, between the two projects, I think in the very early days, also, you know, between, you know, between Jay and, and Gavin, and I think there's a lot of similarities.
So, I, I think personally, I'm really behind this idea to, you know, bring, bring more alignment and, and get these ecosystems also more, more together.
And I think you guys are doing God's job here with, with Composable, um, and also the communities, right?
I mean, I think there's a lot of similarities also in how we, we as Cosmonauts and how the .sama community sees the, the, the whole crypto space.
So, I think on that end, there's a lot of alignment.
We just need to bring it all together.
And I think on your mission to really bring IBC everywhere, like that's really also, you know, what, what's the end mission for Cosmos?
So, I think there's also a lot of alignment there.
Um, so my final question is, and then I saw earlier, uh, Fifth Force wanted to get up.
I don't know if you're still there.
Um, but my final question is just, what are the next steps now?
What are timelines?
Um, I guess there's a lot of community feedback also to go through.
So, how are you tackling this?
Um, are there already any sort of comments from the community that you say, okay, maybe we should investigate that more or, you know, research more on that side?
Or what's the sentiment right now?
Yeah.
I mean, I think the sentiment is, um, you know, we will continue, uh, to get more feedback from the community.
I think we're waiting for, um, a couple, you know, it would be just great to just keep it open for as much as possible to just get some really, really interesting feedback.
Um, and I think once we've seen a couple, like, unique ideas come through, like, we will move to, to post this on chain.
Um, but yeah, I, I'm not really sure at the moment what the timeline is, but, but like, you know, it's definitely a matter of weeks.
Um, and, uh, before you, we wrap it up, did you saw maybe already some feedback that, uh, you could consider to implement it, uh, in the, in the final proposal or you're still open to make change to draft proposal?
Um, yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're, you know, the first, uh, like, I think we're still, we're definitely looking at all the comments.
We've been replying to, to, to the comments.
I think we're, uh, we received some feedback way at the beginning about some, some, uh, like POL ideas we had in mind, which we removed from the proposal entirely, which is reflected in the change log.
Um, I think the interesting thing that's happening in the forum as well is people are just generally discussed, discussing, like, what should be the, the split, I guess, or like, what should be the, like, how do we do things sustainably going forward?
Um, you know, within the Adam economic zone.
Um, so I think some, some validators have, you know, brought up some points.
Um, but I'm not, again, I'm not really sure if those are like composable specific or just like a general comment on, on the model overall.
So I think we're going to, to see, um, next couple of weeks, um, what sentiment is like and then proceed to move this on chain.
Cool.
So I think that, uh, we can expect another couple of weeks of discussion before, uh, hitting on chain, which probably will be at the time we will be all at Cosmoverse.
So, so, so more, more work for CryptoZero probably.
And, uh, yeah.
Thank you everyone for participating to today's discussion.
And, uh, we will keep updating the community for any update coming from Composable and, uh, the, when the proposal will be going on chain.
Uh, thank you to the Composable, to the Composable team to, to joining us today.
Uh, do you have any last, uh, stuff to share before we wrap it up?
Oh, yeah.
Thank you guys for listening and looking forward to just continuing the conversation.
Appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you all.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
