Hello everyone and welcome to the club. See that team from Calc is joining in now. See you on mute right now, Calc. Hello, hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Welcome back, man. Welcome back to the club.
I love it. I love the club. It's always good to be here. It's an absolute pleasure. Hopefully we've got some cool things to talk about today. Yeah, I mean, man, you guys, I don't know. Are you guys sleeping or something? Because I don't think so. You guys
shipping like there's no tomorrow these days it's it's absolutely amazing to see yeah really appreciate it to be telling Frank we're not sleeping that much but we are pumping out a lot of work but we're still in a good place beautiful be there
This goes for most people in Quijira. It seems like they're keeping notes tomorrow going on as a general rule thumb for anyone building with Quijira. But now you're also building with us Moses, which we'd love to talk more about, of course, also.
But exciting times, that's for sure. Yeah, definitely. I think today is going to be a super exciting space because as he said, we've been building my crazy. We haven't done much talking, but I think Calc v2 is definitely a heavy improvement on Calc v1. So looking forward to covering it today.
It's time to do some talking. So yeah, let's dive right in and see people are shooting in also and officially 1pm where I am at least. So welcome everyone to the Cosmos Club where we talk all things Cosmos. It's with Daniel and I was growing on and then we invite interesting, fascinating, hardworking builders. Today we got
on the space here. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much. So yeah, as you probably know by now, we'd like to start with a little bit of personal background on how you ended up working on KELK. A lot of people come from all sorts of life and all sorts of different
Rears and industries and all kind of stuff and they enter crypto and cosmos So yeah, perhaps just quit give a quick background about yourself Yeah, absolutely kind of have a kind of unique background the teams from a few different places But we we mostly have many to their
in various universities or different working situations. The team has quite an extensive background in working in Web2 and tech from large corporates like Rose Royce, Unilever, Nissan, Oracle, Deloitte, etc. as well as startups. And we are super fascinated about
the DeFi space largely because of this idea of equal financial opportunity. Now we very much understand that the outcome is almost never equal, but we at least really resonate with this idea of equal financial opportunity and access to that. So it sort of drove our core interest
in this DeFi space and we just funded a jump right in and start building for this feature to enable people to have the tools in a non-KYC fashion because we believe no matter where you're from, wherever you're born, sex, age, religion, whatever it might be, that you deserve equal access to these tools.
It's a great episode on the inkless podcast bank list. Most people would know about it in here. With the interviewing CC, the CEO of Binance.
him what he would focus on, talk about if he was going to write audience, not just scripture folks, but a wide audience like in the UN, something like that. He said, "When I would focus on what would be financial accessibility,
I think everyone be able to use the same tools that Richard powerful people have been using for many years. Sounds like you are in the same ballpark there. I would say very much and I think it's because we're often on the the latter side of that coin, right?
We never had the same access to a lot of stuff growing up. We may be almost lived in envy of the people that did. We figured if we can contribute to push that need a little bit further for others, we're very happy to be doing that.
So let's talk about Calc. I'm sure most people in here they have at least a basic understanding of what Calc is. You've also gone through a few iterations already, V1.
soon to launch V2. Talk to us about the Cal if it's the first time we hear about it. Yeah, definitely. So Cal short for calculated finance. Give me one second. Sorry.
I'm just recovering from a from a cough. So if you can be going mute, I just had the cough. But yeah, cable is financed essentially with specialized in super charging swap tools to give people a better chance of entering in exit positions. So that originally started off with this core idea of bringing
or a dollar cost averaging where you can essentially swap the same amount in a time interval for you to get access to that average over the time interval. And we originally studying the effectiveness of DCA and other times the predominant reason people use this type of strategies because they
not sure if it's a good time to buy now and the truth of the fact is that, you know, despite what people might claim to be doing, they can never pick the best time for the market. You know, just local examples in Cosmos recently, we see tokens absolutely nook, unexpectedly down 50-60%, which
at prices where people already considered to be very bearish and vice versa can happen. So when we started off building the first tool set of calculated finance v1 was largely around the dollar cost averaging side of things and then we thought you know if we start looking at this paradigm of making swaps not necessarily in a
a single time element, but if you can actually start adding a dimension of time into your swap thinking, we thought we can do some pretty cool stuff. So from just traditional dollar cost averaging, we added things like price floor, price ceilings, auto staking, either from the really great technology on the Cosmos SDK to
build all these tools using off-the-z and we sort of built this supercharged non-pustodial DCA-type product. Then we spoke to a lot of our users, we were sort of studying how people were using the products and it became the conclusion that we can actually add a little bit more element and a little bit more flair to it. So we
increased, you know, played around with different time, so you can, you know, go 30 minutes if you want one day, et cetera, and grew from there. And then we spend a lot of time essentially looking at, you know, is there a way to improve performance for dollar cost averaging without sacrificing the, that favorable risk for risk profile you get from it, right?
Then that was the introduction of what we dubbed DCA plus, which is a machine learning algorithm that essentially studies the market. It analyzes the market and gives every day the likelihood of a crash in the next X period of time. And then it sort of varies your buy amount or sell amount, you know,
it's kept it upside and the downside with the aim of in more bearish times by a little bit more, in less bearish times by a little less, with the hope that we could maintain that same favorable risk profile, but without improving returns as well. So that was sort of the advent of the end of Kekla
We have a white paper on that. We can get very technical if we need, but there's a lot of work already put into it. And then, you know, we're a very user centered and community designed. And we actually ended up speaking to a few very smart community
members and those community members were sharing with us what they like to use from different tools to have a little bit more control, etc. So we kind of took a step away, spoke to a lot of these community members and sort of rebuilt a lot of the tools that people were asking for and we've been shipping them and we will ship them actually in
for less than 48 hours, and the Calc V2. Now, that consists of some super cool things. So, one, we now have introduced something called weighted scale in and out. And the more mathematical version of this is it's a linear transformation of the custom multiplier. The less mathematical version of this is that
If price moves in a favorable direction, it's like DCA, but it will actually buy more if it's or swap more. If it moves in a less favorable direction, it will swap less. So DGEN have described it to me. Eight if low, eight more if lower, or another DGEN might call the selling side
that is like sell maximum if price pumps and then sell less if price not pumping. So that's a first product we brought off the the mark for Kelsey too and then we started introducing a few ways to get creative around looping different strategies. You can send the
the output of one strategy to another, etc. But I'll stop there for now because I think we can definitely dive a little bit deeper into more of these tools that are a lot more dejan friendly. Definitely. And I think I'll start to blend in community questions early as I'm sure you know you've been
here before. The one about DCA in and out that a lot of people I can see is interesting. Perhaps the gen is how, like, is the algorithm in V2 or in the V2 product? Is it clever enough to see, okay,
I bought EC8 at this price on average and I will only TCA out once the price is above that. So basically when there's a profit. I think I can see it just from the community that's not a concern but just a question because I'm sure that's what they do on a daily basis, right?
buy when it dumps and then they lock it in a spreadsheet or whatever tool they use and then whenever the price pumps again to a certain threshold or whatever and then they sell. So if that could be automated, Alc would just make their life so much more easy and less stressful.
I guess. Yes, and it's a fantastic request and when we have heard before. So I think I can, I mean, the short answer to that is yes. At the moment with Calc V2, we still rely on each individual to kind of come up with their own, you know, what investment goals are right for them. I mean,
Some people practice just the buy and hold strategy and that could yield great return. Some people prefer to try their hand at swing trading or shorter term gains. Some people do a bit of both, which is very okay. And I think something we have learned is essentially we want to create these tools such that we can enable and empower people to
to embark on whatever journey they are from investing. So we have actually seen a few people using this type of strategy doing it quite manually. People would set up a DCA in strategy on our, we're very big on data. So on our view performance, you can intract everything you did when your buys were
their graft over time, what your average buy price is, vice versa for selling, etc. And then you can have these concept of the price floor and price ceiling. So if the price is above a particular price you want buy or if it's below a particular price you want sell. And I think the addition of this idea of looping different strikes
some kind of cool strategies in there. It won't be ready for launch in two days, but I think about six or seven days will also add a feature where you can start editing price floors and ceilings on different strategies, etc. So you can really fine tune and build a lot of the stuff. And I think in about one hour or 45 minutes,
We're actually going to really say tweet thread on now I'm not sure if everyone's here familiar with Kajera but they have a soft peg stable coin very similar to make your die model That's seen lots of demand since always almost always very overpriced I've seen it priced at people almost willing to pay a dollar ten cents to the dollar and
So you can start to play around some really cool things around, you know, a USK to actually USDC and then vice versa with price, fraud and ceilings and in some ways if you think that demand for USK will increase, you can potentially profit on it and help push that peg a little bit closer to the one-to-one mark.
Love how crypto moves very fast in general. I think that's a general rule that we all did by now. Things have been shipped in weeks or months. But what I'd talk to you guys from Kellek is always like in a few days.
a few hours in this case in one and a half hour we sent this out and then you can do this. It's pretty incredible. I appreciate it. Yeah we we work hard and super motivated to build something that actually pushes this face forward so we've caught the the Kadira bug in that regard.
So just to type on the Calc V2 rollout, so you will launch it in two days, in 48 hours, I think you said. I mentioned the different features coming out with weighted skillswops, some time intervals.
How do you guys roll that out usually just again for people who first time they hear about kelp? It's just off the bat inside on the kelp finance website when you set up different strategies. How do you guys roll these things out usually?
them, we actually do quite a bit of testing beforehand. A lot of this stuff is contested and we have a few strategies already running in production. We always like to make sure that the final touches on before shipping it out to the people to use.
Enter our azmas deployment was fully audited by Oaks security as well. So that's an extra extra level of trust there. We're basically on 12 o'clock UTC on June 1st. We'll flip the switch and you'll be able to jump on and set strategies at yourself.
just through the app.calculated.fi or just calculated.fi URL and you can find the app from there and that will go live. We will be speaking about the most of the side of things. We'll be running a bit of a setup where
you could earn yourself an OG badge, Osmosis OG badge if you set up two strategies and link them together within the first 48 hours of girl lives, again on the Osmosis version of the app. And then we'll be introducing a few very similar types of setup I like to your side as well.
beautiful. And you just sort of casually mentioned Osmosis here, which I think is a good segue to well on that a bit, because obviously you guys have been building on the Cajuro Protocol for quite some time. Moving to Osmosis, I think for many reasons.
a ton of sense, there's a lot of liquidity, a lot of different tokens, many arguments I guess could be made. We talked to us about that journey moving from building on this Moses compared to Kajira and how that sort of ties into the overall vision for Cal that you mentioned in the beginning.
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that, again, coming down to what we talked about before is like for our goal to support as many people as possible when we pair them with these tools, it would be foolish to think that only stays in one small place. So we're very much, you know, with this idea of
How far we can spread is the more people we can empower and we definitely live by that so it's very mission driven in that regard It does of course come with you know additional liquidity additional tokens being listed You know additional users etc additional integration. So that's most networking and you know audit a positive your
your OSMO or USDC into Mars protocol, for example. We're working on a similar setup in Kichura to connect the things I ghost. We would like to, in the future, get to a place leveraging interchained accounts, interchained queries to do some cool stuff like that. But the tech is still in development, I'd say.
to be in a really good place for that. But yeah, I mean, it was from a build perspective. They helped support with the audit, which is fantastic. We worked with OXICURITY. I think it's their predominant partner on that. Definitely our best audit experience to date. And yeah, they're super supportive with
anything that we needed on that front. And now yeah, it's just going to come to the actual launch side of things. I think a little bit more conservative on supporting different projects from illegal stats. But nothing can't be worked out, I'm sure. And yeah, we're really looking forward to the go-las.
Talk to us about how the user will experience it. Like, dumb it down a bit for us. So assuming that you've entered the website, so I connect, let's say, Kepler, which is compatible, obviously, to the computer network and the web shows.
like where do I want to deploy at DCA strategy like Nankotura or Smosis to a tutor network or how will I experience it as a user? Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So as mentioned before, we'd love to get to a place with interchained queries, interchained accounts where
You know, we can sort of just have the single app that you might not necessarily know. You're on osmosis or could you? But for this first release, we are going to take an approach where you essentially choose your chain on the app. And it kind of sits as two separate experiences for the time being.
They are both beautifully breaded now there. You've got a very cajera looking app on one side and a very else most is looking at. I think you've got George Walson to know there as well. You essentially would set up a Newsy app as you do today.
But I'm selecting the preferred network to use on. And again, we like to release an iteration, so I would love to get to the place where we can just either maybe integrate it with a Dex aggregator and route swaps or vice versa.
So awesome. And something that I can see also a lot of community members is asking is about the sort of grades happening like I guess not to get too technical but right now, help is integrating with as mentioned, Kojira and the Fin.
text where you can create smart orders that settle immediately or order basically in order book limit orders. The smallest does not have an order book. It's a basic AMM, instant settlement or instant swaps.
So basically, what happens, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that I would set up a DGA, let's say in strategy, then Calc would just make sure that those swaps, all those grades that happen, will just happen in those time periods that I've set, is that correctly understood?
Oh, yeah, that's correct. So I believe that osmos has already announced that they will be moving towards a club type setup. Controchated liquidity order books. Very, very, very, very familiar with the term. There's lots of terms in the site crypto. But yeah, for the first time period,
We do like a few other products options we have is like don't start a strategy until particular prices hit and that does the use of fins limit order so that's like that functionality is removed from the optimist's version of the app until you know something like that will be supported but yeah, there'll be a few small different
between the two apps at the moment, but I think like they're both super super charged and I should read it by saying that these new strategies like the weighted scale in an ad, they are quite advanced and I think we're kind of interested because we sort of open this like playground where
We give complete control and freedom to people and how they want to set up some awesome strategies. We see on Twitter some people using the DCA in and out with the price floors to manly make those like higher trades or swing trades where here we've really supercharged and empowered those types of users.
is to set up some wild things. You can link and loop two strategies, five strategies, ten strategies. I'm sure this and some pretty wild stuff that can be done there. But it is a little bit more advanced. But for the classic DCA, or traditional, we do try to keep it pretty straightforward and easy.
This is by the way what I really love about Calc, the peaks of focus on DCA, the dollar cost average, which is a concept that is very easy to grasp, right? You just buy, for example, for the same amount, $10 every week, or eternity, or a year, or whatever.
That is a tested, tried and true strategy that has been used for a long time. But obviously, that there was in detail. You can go so many ways and create so many different strategies around the DA. That's what I really love. You start it with the basics. Then from here, you're just extrapolating.
with a V2 coming up in two days and I'm sure V3 before in the time to come. That's something personally I just really love and I'm sure it also helps you guys as a team like okay this is our foundation and then we can build all kinds of castles or
strategies on that foundation. Would you agree with that statement? I did. Where there's this kind of concept in product development. It's called Lean Startup and essentially is popularized in the last few years. It kind of became like a Silicon Valley type approach. But the core principle is that
What's the minimum amount of work you can do to validate the ideas? Because in the end of the day, much like no one knows what the market's going to do, when you're putting out a product, no one knows how people are going to interact with it and use it. Sometimes we find really cool ways. We had no idea people were doing things with a traditional DCI-type product.
That's really interesting. We can double click there. Let's reach out to the Montweeter. Let's speak to him. So like even this weighted scale in and out, there's someone on Twitter. He kind of shot us a message. He said, I'd love to be able to do this. We said we can make that happen for sure. And kind of build and iterate from there. I will also preface by saying that we do
try to hide a lot of these advanced settings in their in typically the setup process. We've got a very small toggle for advanced settings. For the weighted scale internet, you might lose your socks on the amount of different things that can be done there. It's a very long list. But again, we try to abstract a lot of that way for the real pair of users.
The list is probably only getting longer. I'm sure as time goes on.
Let's talk about, so before we open up too many of the community questions, I want to give you a chance to at least highlight what's on the roadmap for you guys, because as we said, you've started with DCA product, then you had DCA+ where you have the features.
version coming out with the time intervals and weight scale etc. So you're stripping V2 in two days. Let's go, I don't know if it's weeks or months, but let's go up to beyond that. So what happens after you ship V2? What's in store? Because I think that's also helping be
highlighting different community questions based on that. Yeah, it's a fantastic question. I won't give, I won't spill the beans too early, but I will touch on two things that we find quite interesting. So I alluded earlier before that when you consider a swap, it's kind of too dimensional in the sense that it's like
It's happening right now, but you're going to put something in and something's going to come out. And there's some unique innovations around this is why you see the rise of different AMMs and Udislav V3, et cetera, V4, WaterPoke Dexas, concentrated liquidity, et cetera, where we added that third dimension.
no longer constrained this idea of making a swap by time. There's a really cool problem set you can explore in there. And I think like this V2 is definitely a step in that right direction. What we don't currently support, which we find quite interesting when we're talking to some community members about.
is that what if you could dynamically feed in data and then use that dynamic data to make a decision. So instead of kind of like defining everything upfront, what if you might want to feed in a simple moving average and essentially leverage that to determine different swaps of math.
And now a lot of stuff is never been done, especially in a DeFi sense. Typically a lot of these tools would be found in a central organization. So it is technically challenging to make a lot of stuff happen, but I think that is an area that we're really, really interested in exploring.
more dynamic data to essentially inform what we might want to offer or enable people to create some seriously wild strategies. Some will work really well, some might not work really well, and I think it's just about a fine-tuning process.
like to see the community kind of step up and share a lot of their learnings and insights. We've seen a few people already do that with the current tool suite. And then yet going from there, I think it's definitely a game around scaling and sort of challenging that problem statement a little bit more until V4 comes around and will be something totally different.
But the custom data being inputted, I think that's what the community member alludes to when he says, you know, having this sort of price entry that they deeze it in it. And then sort of, you know, take profit at 10% or whatever, right? Like that, that's basically
getting to the custom data being loaded in to the strategy. And as you say, there could be so many different things that you feed in and a strategy should be taken to account when they're using the in-house. Exactly.
exciting to see what you guys come up with on that. Yeah, like we said, it's interesting for us because there's no one to look at and copy off. It's more like a newer space for you to explore. This is where we really call it. If you consider yourself super DJN or super strategic,
Our DMs are always open. Sometimes they actually seem to be closed if we're not following each other. But just tag us on Twitter or join our telegram and hit us up there. We're always happy to have discussion, chat about some super cool strategies, try to build some crazy stuff that will push the space forward.
definitely. Under competitive space and how you position yourself, it's also something that people are curious about, like how
do your comparison too because just in top of my head I can't think of anyone that's doing similar stuff like you guys the only thing I can think about is centralized exchanges that has you know like simple DCA buttons to click and setting up simple strategies but you guys are
100% decentralized you DeFi. So not only anyone doing something similar to you guys, but you are the expert. Yeah, I appreciate it. I mean, we don't spend too much time, and I think this is quite interesting, right? Where I used to work in an innovation lab.
And they always had this idea of groupthink and sort of this preset bias that if you put everyone in a room and showed them an example of something like 99% of the time they will all come up with similar types of solutions where is it these sort of abstract away this idea of like competitors and you really challenge that thinking
to push it beyond just someone else in the space doing something. Then I think you get to a place where you can start designing a lot of these really cool stuff. I mean, it doesn't always work out. That's for sure, and it's a lot more challenging. But we don't spend too much time thinking about who we're the competitors, whatever you're going to do about that, etc.
We're just super happy to kind of push the boundaries forward a little bit. And yeah, just try to build some super cool stuff and a core principle and a core ten of what we do is, you know, self-custody should be where it's at. You know, we don't want to relive the Celsius scenario, the FTX type below.
up where a lot of people were doing similar type of things and there's nothing worse than waking up in the morning and your life savings are gone. It could be very detrimental to both mental health, physical health, financial side of things. So yeah, we want to avoid that where possible.
That's definitely something that is understated in all of this. I mean, we talk about different strategies and optimizing your finances and investment strategies and all that kind of stuff. Really what this is all about.
about is taking out stress for people in their daily lives, lowering the risk people do seeing different type of savings, as you mentioned, like really basic,
big things that millions of millions of people struggle with every day.
I think, again, you were very humble and inside team, a calc is very humble, but this is big, right? This is huge. If we can solve that with calc and in deep line, all that, that's one of the big promises, I think. It's fantastic to see a team like yourself sort of delivering
a small scale right now, but something that could be really, really, really big and have a huge impact on a lot of people out there. So this is a great example. FGX is a great example. We've seen all these stories, right? And we should be better next time for the next wave of people coming into crypto, I think.
Yeah, we 100% agree. A lot of the investing and early work we did when we were looking at things like DCA, everyone has different investment goals. But there's always a third dimension that in the end of the day, people are people. There's another element to their life beyond just their investment.
That's important to take into account. Obviously, this side around risk and self-custody. Of course, we feel quite heavily for that. So, yeah, I mean, still small now, but we're working to change that. We're working to make it a different space. What we'd love to be is a
of tools and a product that can sit on any decks that actually makes it more appealing to use and centralized exchanges and then you get to a place where you know it's no longer like oh you kind of give up you know you give up your custody but you get a little bit more tools. It's like maintain your custody and have more powerful tools that would be a huge win right.
Definitely, definitely. I want to hit it with another community question. I think actually came from ourselves in the beginning, but maybe which one is present for someone else. But that's the question about USK and USTC. Sorry, X, USK and X, USTC. Basically, ghost.
like assets, like let's say usk. If you lend usk on ghost, you get x usk and that has yield, it carries yields. People are starting to really come up with creative strategies for you know, okay. If I can have a yield bearing to
token like x usk actually right now you get a lot of yields a lot of interest on that under the raise right now but it's something like 10% or something like that you get on usk if I can deposit that onto ghost or lend it by a ghost take the
XUSK and right now for example you can fit on liquidated assets like liquidated atom, liquidated Eqge or whatever on Orca in the Incogeera. But if you could also create normal limit orders with the fill using XUSK and when you can do that
That would also open up the opportunity for Cal to allow users to PCA in and out, of course, the Office Strategy using XUSK, XUSK, deal bearing, U.S.K. So do you have any comments on that? It's not so much a question, it's more like,
I guess you can say. Yeah, I think it's a great feature request in this idea of capital efficiency is something we have definitely been exploring. If you XeoSK is listed on thin, we're essentially on the cajure contract and listed straight away.
with that would require pairs for everything where I think that's where Matt and Dyle will come in with their Swapper contract. But the current state, as is, we need to do a little bit more smart contract work.
where this latest release of the contract actually enables us to make that a lot easier. But yeah, I think there's something like around a week's worth of smart contract development and then a little bit more time on the front-end side of things to to bring that to life if XUSK isn't listed.
it on the fin beforehand. But just my way of saying we hear you, we agree, we use the product, we want it as well. It's just a matter of will we have that one week of resource dedicated to it or will it come on Mantasashfin sooner?
We will do ours to try to get some alpha from the Qajir team. I think.
I'm not a big teacher, but this would be a super cool strategy with Calc being able to DCA in and out of XUSK, for example. But yeah, this is on the Couture right now, allowing this to be able to find this in Fin, for example. So let's see what they come up with.
So I know you guys are busy, you guys have a lot of things to roll out in the coming hours and days. Is there anything you want to leave the community with today or even is there anything you want to ask the community to do? I think notifications on, forward for there, maybe you don't have to do it today.
that maybe tomorrow. Keep track of when we actually do go live with Kelfty too. But for those most of the sides as well as the Kadra V2. And yeah I think it might be worthy to nail yourself an OG spot if you can.
And yeah, continuing to engage, like I said before, very community-oriented. A lot of the stuff we do is for the community, so if you have any ideas, feel strategies, get wild strategies, feel free to share on Twitter, Telegram Groups, etc. and spread the word as mentioned before.
We're on a mission to, you know, prepare as many people as possible to have smarter swap tools, ideally, both in pairing decentralized exchanges. So we don't need to, forgo that self-custody, as well as reaches many people on different changes possible.
Awesome. I can confirm this by the way to the entire community. I mean, every time we tweet something, we do that every now and then, like, @TeamCoger. @YouGuys even, the CalC team. How about doing this? How about doing that? You guys respond immediately.
It's really great to see. It's almost like a direct line we have on Twitter. It's really nice to be able to throw ideas out there and then you guys respond. You might not implement it right away because you're not big back of the world, I'm sure. But you listen very well to
the community I think that's our experience at least. Well done on that also. Very much appreciate you, appreciate the time, appreciate Cosmos Club, appreciate the community and yeah, same team, same dream, let's keep working forward and make some super cool stuff that will help push the space forward.
Amen to that. Amen to that. All right, well, all the best and good luck with the rollout here in the two days with Calc Mitsu and looking forward to speaking to you again, man. Fantastic. He took everyone. Take care.