Hey, everyone can you hear me?
Hello there and welcome to the club. Yeah. Quite to be here with you. Yes, yes, thanks for the invite. I'm looking forward to tell more about what you're building. Definitely. How many people do you typically have?
have on these same sessions. Yeah, so it varies. I would say some projects, you know, they bring the entire team almost. We had space not too long ago, which they there were like five people that were speakers besides
myself. And then but oftentimes I would say it's one or two just a representative from the project that could speak on their behalf. So it's very different really what people do. Sometimes we also do panels like we have multiple projects
talking about, for example, derivatives, decentralized derivatives. So yeah, it can be a big mix. It takes many forms. We also had, we hosted like a big cosmos kind of events announcement thing. And I think we had like, I don't know.
50 or something people talking over not at the same time of course but yeah yeah it's very different very different so where are you based where are you sitting today I'm based in Switzerland in Zurich
Nice. I'm sitting here in Copenhagen. Cold, grey Copenhagen. Oh yeah, yeah, it's not better here. If you can hear my voice, it might be a bit deep right now. That's because I'm a little bit sick like everybody else in Copenhagen in January.
I haven't been to Copenhagen, I have to go at some point. What's the best month to go there? Summer is awesome to be honest. The best place in maybe July, August, I think is Copenhagen or around Copenhagen. It's really beautiful.
But winter, don't go here. Just don't do it. I mean, if you got your family here and you can't get out, I mean, it's okay, right? But otherwise... Okay, okay, good.
But yeah, I mean where I'm sitting at least it's visually 9 p.m. So let's just kick things off. Welcome everyone to the Cosmos Club where we treat all things Cosmos and starting to extend beyond the Cosmos ecosystem as the Cosmos is encompassing more and more eco-friendly
systems and projects. And today we got Diva Protocol, a derivatives protocol. So welcome to the space to the club. Yeah, thanks for having me. So let's just kick it off right away and just talk about what is Diva Protocol and why do people need to
pay attention here. Yeah, thanks for the introduction. Yes, so my name is Lat, I'm the co-founder of Diva Protocol and Diva Protocol is the first truly universal and flexible smart-country-based operating system for the real
So basically, users can create and settle fully customizable derivative products, peer to peer. And our goal is to disrupt the traditional way of creating and managing derivative products which typically
lies on central intermediaries like banks and comes with the typical risks like counterparty risk and entry barriers and also negatively impacts liquidity because the systems are not communicating with each other typically.
Yeah, and maybe put it a bit more into words like how maybe a bit a use case is useful for people to sort of wrap their head around. What could derivative can be something, right? So what could a use case? Yeah, exactly. Maybe I short
kind of like introduction or definition of derivative. And then I can mention one concrete use case that we are currently working on. So the derivative is basically a contract between two parties that specifies under which conditions or
and shell occur. So you typically have an event, say the Bitcoin price at some future points on time and the payoff profile that is linked to the outcome of the event. And so example products that fall into this category are
are insurance, prediction markets, traditional call, put options, structured products, credit default, swaps, sports bets, political bets. So all of these things that all have a different name, follow this core.
logic, right? And this is what diva protocol implements at the end and allows to create a wide range of derivative products on top. So one product that's, or one thing that we are currently working on
conditional donations, which are basically like insurance, where the donor would deposit funds and they get unlocked if a certain metric triggers. Let's say if a metric that measures drought for
below a certain threshold. And it's basically the same concept as insurance, but you as a donor you wouldn't charge a premium to the one that would receive the other side. So we're currently exploring a pilot campaign with farmers in Kenya.
that suffer from climate change and drought and yeah, hoping to assist them with financial support if like drought occurs. Nice. And you mentioned also liquidity being an issue.
for this market to really take off in DeFi. Perhaps speak more to that. I think most people in here, they would know about liquidity pools, AMMs, like all these different things, adding liquidity, but how would that work in a derivatives world? How do you see it at least?
So the liquidity that I was previously referring to was more related to the traditional world where the systems where the rivetives are issued are typically happen in isolated systems. So if you say by structured product with a bank, you can typically sell it only
to that bank, right? Although you might get a better price at some other bank. So that's what I was referring to previously when I talked about liquidity, but yeah, I can help you to give my perspective on liquidity in the relative space. I think here we have to
distinguish between two types of liquidity. So one is the primary liquidity and the second one is the second liquidity. So with primary liquidity, I mean if I want to say engage in a bet with someone, I would
deposit money, the other party will deposit money and both of us get these contingent claims in return. So that's the first kind of like trade in a derivative contract. And then we wait until the contract expires and the payout or the outcome is determined and the
So here in the bad, yes, you might want to trade in between, but typically you would kind of like sit it out and wait until kind of like the outcome is known and then you claim your pay also in that case.
especially if it's more like exotic type of derivatives, you might not have a secondary market. It's also the case in traditional finance for structured products, for instance, where you typically
by that product with the goal to hold it for one or one and a half years to earn a yield and you typically, I mean, really trade it in between. And then there's this secondary liquidity, which I think
Most often, it evolves for more standardized type of products. Let's say I don't know, you have a derivative product with a linear payoff on the BTC/USD price where you would expect a lot of people wanting to buy it. So I like to think
about liquidity and kind of like these two kind of like pillars. Makes sense, makes sense. And how would that look like just to perhaps paint a picture, how would that look like in a in a depth, I think again, back to my AMM example or the Quiddity Pool example,
like will it be sort of like people providing liquidity tokens or is it more like the different offers, bits that is being made that sort of makes up an order book style kind of exchange or yeah how does that look as in a USU
So give a protocol is only allows the creation and the settlement of these products and the trading part can be implemented via any trading infrastructure. So it can be an AMM like Uniswap. It can also be a decentralized
limit order book like 0x protocol or you can also trade these position tokens. This is how we refer to them on central nice tics changes because they are year c20 and yeah basically can be integrated everywhere. I mean you have the full flex
What you want to do, but we believe, and that's also what we implemented in the Diva app that we built. We believe that AMMs do not really work for the Reuters because you have multiple dimensions that you have to take into account for pricing.
Yeah, AMMs are somewhat limited and that respect and with a limit or the type of order book you can basically determine the price based on the inputs that you need and you basically have full flexibility.
And also I think historically the relative protocols that had an AMM type of, how does it say trading feature integrated that they didn't perform well. So most often liquidity was subsidized with tokenance.
incentives and yeah, I mean it may work for some time but yeah, I think in the end LPs will just lose out. Hmm, I see. So you listed a few use cases that you guys are sort of looking into. So for example, credit
link products as you would call it, which I think again people can relate to with all these different lending and borrowing markets at DeFi with interest rates and interest rate or interest bearing token sometimes some protocols are issuing. Then you have issuer insurance link products where you can assure yourself
I think again, some people can relate. There's different depths out there that are also sort of ensuring different things in DeFi. You got conditional donations, you got sports betting, so there's all these different use cases. So what are you guys focused on?
working on to it because you can't do everything at once. I'm assuming at least. Yeah, exactly. So I think we will start with conditional donations because there we have a concrete pilot program upcoming and I also think it's beneficial for the whole crypto space to show people that are not in crypto
So what this technology enables, right? So it can have a positive impact on society. And the second thing with Conditional Donations is that you don't have these regulations that you have to follow, right? It's more like, or he likes from that perspective.
perspective. But I would say conditional nations more like a niche case, right? And wouldn't probably scale a lot over time. So the one area where we see a lot of volume are structured products. So similar to
what ribbon finance is doing where they basically create some strategies, the road to strategies and sell it on the market, like wall strategies. So this is where we see a lot of volume and would like to work with traditional banks on proof of concepts where we introduce
use this technology and test it maybe with some of the clients. So these are kind of like, yeah, two big ones that we want to focus on. There is another category of products that I'm super excited about because it
basically allows fully trustless derivative products. So one example is I don't know, under collateral is landing protocols, right? There are a few. So under collateral is landing protocols, you basically
the lender takes the risk that the borrower might not repay, right? So he might have a natural interest to hedge themselves with the relative products. And now if the data is on chain, you can leverage that. So you don't need an oracle to pass it from the
of chain world to the on chain world, but you can just grab it from that protocol and use it as your underlying metric. This is one type of product, but there's also like other interest rate protocols like iPort protocol, for instance, which calculate
the risk-free DeFi rate on chain, which you can also use as the underlying. I think these are really, really interesting use cases that I'm particularly excited about. Nice. Why are you so
excited about this just to get a sense of you're much deeper into this I think than the average person in the other thing is the Oracle so in the Deva protocol is Oracle Gnostic meaning the creator basically defines the address that is supposed to
report the outcome. So it can be like you and I or it can be a smart contract that is equipped with some logic to pull the price from somewhere like a decentralized Oracle solution, chain link or teleprotocol. But all these solutions basically assume that
I don't know there is someone who takes the data of chain reports it on chain there's maybe some dispute period right that You have to kind of like Yeah, wait for until this value is pushed so you still have some Oracle risk if you
take off chain data and put it on chain. And with these on chain protocols that I mentioned on the collateral is landing or interest rate protocols, this data lives on chain already. So you don't need any oracle that would push the value for
settlement and you can just trigger a function which would just pull say the amount repaid in the under collateral as long lending protocol or the current interest rate, right? And then yeah, I mean that's the holy grail of Oracle's if everything is on chain.
Nice. And that's yeah, so that prevents you from like something like flash run attacks or similar types of attacks in the derivatives markets. Is that correct? Yeah, flash run attacks, I mean, you still might need to take into account when working with
on-chain data. You could theoretically also use the current price of a uniswap pool, but there you would have the risk that someone, like shortly before expiration, manipulates the price.
It's more about the risk of false reporting if you use OR it constructs the report of data. That's the main risk that you get rid of.
make sense. And where are you in the process right now? So if I am correctly understanding that you have a test net that has been tested with thousands of users or thousands of wallets already, but yeah, where are you in the process and how can people try try things out if they want to play
around with either test that or main. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, the protocol is almost done. So we will start the audits, probably mid March with main deployment shortly after. And while building the protocol, we also started building like
first application top which we refer to as the diva app which basically allows you to kind of like test all the functionality so you can create a derivative product, you can create it, you can settle it, you can play in your payout and yeah as you mentioned
we had an incentivized testnet and Q3 where we invited users to test out or explore the functionality of the diva app. And yeah, and in return, the testnet users would receive a claim on the diva token that will
also launch together with the mainnet. And yeah, I mean, it has attracted so many users who are completely overwhelmed. So we started with 800 Discord members and by the end of the testnet, which lasted for two and a half
months, we had like 36,000 users in our discord, which was like without any marketing, it was really just this announcement. And yeah, it was super, super helpful, I have to say. And yeah, I mean, if you want, if people
want to try try out the app they can access it under app.diva.finance and they can get some test assets in our discord in the register channel so they get some fake us
the tokens that they can use to create markets. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And perhaps get rewarded if they do well. Yeah, something about the adoption and attraction that you see already. I think that really speaks to the
derivatives market being such a large behemoth that people don't really think about or perhaps know about. I mean, you have a nice little graph or sort of comparison that you have in one of your presentations where you look at crypto, which is about a trillion dollars
in market cap collectively. We tend to be very much into the eco-chamber of crypto and think that a world is surrounded with crypto assets but not really because if you compare to other asset classes like gold as you do, it's 11 trillion dollars.
an 11x factor from the entire crypto market cap. If you look at global debt, you go up to $250 trillion. So that's a 250x. And then the whole derivative market right now, and it's probably even bigger since you did this slide, it's
the $500 trillion compared to one trillion in crypto. So this is just a massive underlying market that is really the bedrock in many ways of the financial system. So if you are really serious about DeFi, new financial system, yada yada, we have
get this right. I mean, this has to be built out. The rails have to be built. And that's also why we wanted to talk to you actually. So yeah, the market opportunity is huge. And I think in crypto, the root space in crypto is still very, very small. So I
red numbers on Twitter recently, where it was like 220 million TVL so far across 42 option protocols. And I would say it's still tiny.
Yeah, let me look. I'm looking at DeFi Lama right now. So we are below 50 billion dollars in total value locks. Okay. And I mean, compare that again to the derivatives market, right? It's peanuts. Yeah. Yeah.
I think, yeah, obviously needs quite a bit of work on the US side because I mean the root of this is not an easy product for many to digest, right? For some it's even intimidating because people associate the root of
with professional traders, but I think it's only one hand to improve UI and all the other hand is also to show kind of like other use cases, like conditional donations that people can easily understand or insurance or I don't know trading
football player cars. I don't know. That's the beauty of the rubble. It can really be anything. Only your imagination says to them. Beautiful. So yeah, tell us a bit about
about how you guys come because you're not the only ones doing derivatives markets and protocols in this space. So you obviously, I mean in order to compare it, it's a bit difficult because you're not really live yet. But there are other players obviously working on this. Open, I think that's how you pronounce it.
I actually never pronounced it. I used to pronounce it and then you got auger of course the first I believe the first ICO ever or the theory. So it got a lot of attention for that prediction market. So yeah, how do you guys see yourself and compare yourself to
to those two perhaps others. Yeah, I think the main differentiating factor is the high customization of diva protocol. So if you take over, right, you may have any underlying event or any event as
your underlings say, I don't know, Trump will win the election yes or no or I don't know, team A will win the match yes or no, but the payoffs are typically just binary so it's over nothing right and so you have the limitation on the payoff side
and for option protocols like open, you typically have a limitation in the choice of the underlying, so there it needs to be like a pair that is native to Ethereum, so you couldn't use like a weather index that is calculated from
data to measure drought, right? So you can only use like say if USDC pair as your underlying and also on the payoff profile side it's typical just the plain vanilla pool or cool type of payload, right? So
And what we, Antiva Protocol offers is basically flexibility in both. So you can choose any underlying. And the payoff is highly customizable. So you can select a binary type of payoff and would basically have something very similar that
It's all-girl or poorly market offers, but you can also model linear payoffs in a predefined range, or you can combine linear and binary components and have structured product type of payoffs.
Yeah, that's kind of like the main one of the main different shank factors of the protocol. Nice. And one of the community questions that I can already see popping up again and again, something that we also talked about off-air is
None of these are currently according to my research at least is planning to go bridge over to cosmos. So I think a question that has to be asked, perhaps as early as now, is are you guys considering moving over to cosmos? We talked about just for
So everybody knows we're talking about the F-MOS and other sort of EVM compatible Cosmos chains, making it more and more easy for for DAPs in Ethereum, EVM compatible DAPs to bridge over to Cosmos. So the tech is definitely being built out. So is that something that you guys are considering?
Why not? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the question. So I mean, our goal is to make this infrastructure, this piece of infrastructure that we have developed to as many people or available to as many people as possible, which also includes deploying it on as many EVM
compatible chains as possible. And so we will start with Ethereum, Polygon, Arbitrume, Knowsys. But yeah, I mean, if one costs most, there are EBM compatible chains. I mean, that's just one setting we have to change in the deploy
script and then it's there. So yeah, I mean we're completely open in terms of deployment of Tiva protocol because in the end we pursue a platform approach. So we actually want people to build applications on it because
the platform, the protocol will benefit because there's a small fee charge on redemption. So yeah, that's kind of like part of the whole strategy. And that's, I think that's in a nutshell, something that a lot of projects, protocols,
color whatever you want. That's the journey that they will see. And if they don't take that, I don't think they will see much adoption in both in the short term and in the long term, really. And also one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you, because I think it's very interesting to see how the whole
ecosystem crypto is changing from hey are you on the Ethereum, are you on Solana, are you on Cosmos, and then sort of treating it as siloed garden. We don't talk to each other. If you fall into that garden, I'm not going to talk to you because I'm in this silo over here.
Now more and more you see obviously in customers we talk about IBC where change can connect to each other. We see chains like FMOS and others who are connecting to other ecosystems like EVM compatible chains. We see composable finance in the in-cosmos
which is making it easier to integrate with the entire ecosystem like Polkadot, Near and other ecosystem. Polkadot, by the way, historically, has been like the enemy number one for the Cosmos guys. But I think more and more, even people in Cosmos, in my experience,
starting to come to the realization that in order for us to really succeed in what we are trying to accomplish, whatever we are building, whether it's a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text, a text,#
One entire ecosystem, what matters is the user experience is it easy for people to use because then and only then will we get mass adoption, which I think all of us wants. Exactly. I mean, I see it the same way the crypto space will be multi-chain.
right? And yeah, I mean we kind of like try to deploy diva protocol on most chains ourselves because if you don't someone else will, right? We will open source diva protocol and then you have cases
like Pancake Swap popping up on the chain where you knew Swap, I don't know, didn't want to deploy on the right and then you have all these discussions and governance votes ongoing where to deploy and I mean in the end it's just
come like storage, right, with all these blockchain cells, which come at different trade-offs, some are more secure, but slower, some are faster, but maybe less secure, right? And why not kind of like give the anti-user the opportunity to choose
of this straight of themselves. It's kind of like my view on these type of discussions. Definitely. A lot of people are also asking about security. How you guys make sure that security is top-notch and people won't
get rocked or the funds won't get stolen from a hacker or whatever might happen to a protocol. How do you guys treat security? Yes, the first, obviously, is to follow best practices when coding, developing the smart contracts.
And the second is to do audits. So we plan to do audits with two different firms in March and just to make sure that their experts looking at the contracts to find something that we
might have overlooked. So these are the two things that you can do as a smart contract developer. And yeah, I mean, there's still no 100% guarantee that it might not get hacked, but I mean, at least we have a higher
confidences a user if you kind of like have experts. Yeah, I mean, if the NSA can connect anything we can. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Nothing is 100%. Exactly. And I mean, we will have a disclaimer in our docs and I would also urge you
users to kind of like not start going like with huge amounts, but first try out. We'll have versions on testnet. So before going on mainnet, you can also play around on testnet to see how it works. And yeah, I mean, there's no
percent guarantee for anything in life. No, no, no, definitely not. And let us know if you look, you say you are looking into two auditors. I don't know if you locked them down already. But one of the sponsors on the Cosmos Club is Park Basins, which is they're known for having this sort of scan, the wake of scan your wallet.
it, just like revoke cache, I think it's pretty big also. But what they did, sort of extending that functionality, they also scraped audits from various different auditors, like, SIRD-AIC and all that stuff, and sort of giving a security scan, which is pretty cool, like you can sort of scan your wallet and then see
Okay, which ones have been hacked and which one has been ordered of all the depths that you connected to? And then they have they started doing the roll audits shortly after that functionality being built. So yeah, let us know. We can put you in touch with blockbases if you if you need an auditor. Yeah, definitely. I mean, let's let's
Let's connect. We can do that afterwards. We just want to mention that they are great guys. We respect them a lot. They really have to help the ecosystem. The story is actually quite interesting. They had all these different people contacting them because they got wrecked.
from the fun stone and from wallets and all that stuff. As you can see, I'm tired of it and built this sort of functionality where people can sort of front run almost scammers, you know, from taking, taking funds from people's wallets by doing the scam. So yeah, pretty cool stuff. Nice.
But it talks to us about the diva token. I think a lot of people is getting more more curious perhaps also after this space. So what is the token? Why do you need the token in the first place? Yeah. Okay, thanks. Yeah, so as I mentioned before, the protocol is generating fees, right?
So now with the diva token, you can basically vote for an entity or a person, or delegate how we call it, who will get access to these fees, and with that fund or drive
adoption of the protocol. So yeah, the diva tokens basically acts like a voting token and in order to vote, you would basically lock in your diva tokens towards the delegates address. Now,
With that, you basically have like a central element, which kind of gives you efficiency, more flexibility. But it comes with its own risks if you have a central part involved. So what we also did,
is we implemented a mechanism where you as a diva token holder, you can remove your support if you're unhappy with the delegates job and you can lock in your tokens for someone else for another candidate. And in the
worst case the delegate, the current one, will lose access to the fees or will be basically voted out by that decentralized process and a new owner will get access or will get elected as the new delegate and get access to the protocol fee.
and will continue. So what we try to do with the diva token is, yeah, basically building a mechanism that allows for efficient and effective governance. And, yeah. - Beautiful.
And by the way, that's where we also invite you with welcoming arms to come to the Cosmos ecosystem where you can allow for governance. Like governance is at an all-time high for customers change, which is pretty awesome to see actually. But also for staking, of course, easy staking and validators.
running your protocol. But that'd be a warm invitation to come over at some point. Talk to us about what people can build on the DVA protocol. I know you have a lot.
So yeah, is that something where you're bringing developers up on top? Yeah, so actually this launch program It's more about sponsoring some of the audit costs in return for so if you're interested
You want to signal your support for decentralized technologies, right? So you could kind of like use this opportunity to sponsor some of the costs you get recognition and also Diva Toketsvich give you governance right in the protocol. So that's that's what this launch
program is about in terms of products, I mean there's really like as you said before the sky is the limit so you can build literally anything you can also create markets on tokens that do not yet exist for instance so everyone is expecting
the arbitrum token, you could already create a derivative product on the trading price in two or three years today and start trading it. I mean, just one interesting example
that does not yet exist. So yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I mean, these things take various different forms. Time will tell, right? It's very difficult to predict, especially in this market, when you can make so many different types of
derivatives. I mean, who knows what will be what people's attractive and get the most traction in the beginning. Right. I just just follow the the the interest really and see which which ones is in the highest demand. Exactly. Exactly. Makes sense. Makes sense.
I mean, the time where people are sitting in an ivory tower and deciding which which gaps on which applications which derivatives should be getting adoption is so yes, we are decentralized. Yeah, and that's what's what's so exciting about the space you basically open up.
the whole financial system for everyone. Obviously you have to learn how to interact with that, how to build applications on that, but it will significantly lower the hurdle to build this kind of application. Imagine you want to build a structured product
platform today. Imagine how many, I don't know, what you would need to do in order to connect to traditional financial infrastructure in order to enable such a platform. And here you have like an operating system like Windows, right? Because you can connect to and
build your platform without asking anyone for allowance. I think it's super powerful. Yeah, yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think people sometimes are a bit too eager to get this going like we, the
financial system, TratFi has been built over centuries, right? Since, I don't know, the 12th century, when the Italians started trading and creating the modern day financial system. And we want to re-event that entire thing in this
span of what 15 years and we're getting impatient already. I mean come on guys, I mean this will take time. Infrastructure takes time. If you want to do it right at least it takes time to build a road, it takes time to build and it's high a new type of financial system.
So I think patience is a virtue really for people in crypto. Exactly. And it's often it's also just trial and error, right? You try out something and I mean, if it doesn't work, you try to improve and make it better. And I also have the feeling that we are repeating a lot of mistakes that
that traditional financial system has already done. We're just repeating them over, over again, but that's just part of the learning process. Most of you meet with the scammers, SPF and all the grifters that we are flushing out in this fair market now, for instance.
I think the generation that is in crypto is pretty young. The hand went for all the crisis and traditional finance. I feel like a natural learning process, which will
just make a stronger and a long run. It's going to be very interesting to follow. For sure. Follow us. I think God bless us that we will come out on top. I really hope. I mean, blockchain is such a powerful technology. It can really
And it can really make the internet what it was supposed to be. The internet was supposed to be a handful of typically American companies just, you know, grabbing all the data that is there in the world to grab and become more and more powerful. The internet was supposed to be, you know, free and
open for people to use. Yeah, I think that's why most people got into blockchain and crypto in the first place, but unfortunately in any industry there's some bad apples which are gonna be grifters and scammers and fraudsters. And it
What happened again? I'm sure. There will be new ones coming up. I'm sure. I think problems will be solved over time. I think that was the case also with the internet, right? When it started, you had all these credit card scams in nowadays.
hardly hear about credit cards, cash, right? So, technologies and solutions improve for time and also confident that this will happen in crypto as well. Yeah. Faith in humility is at risk here. All right, man.
You have been a super gracious and grateful for your time here. Is there something just on the last note and last question? Is there something you want to deep the community with? Is there something we should look forward to? Anything on the roadmap that you want to highlight? Yeah. Yeah, I think the
next big milestone for us is the launch on mainnet and I mean you can follow us on Twitter you can join all this court in order to not miss it and we are also planning a second phase often incentivize
tested before we go live and where you get an opportunity to try out an app that we build and in return get a claim on the diva token and with that governance power when the whole system goes live. So yeah just follow us and
Definitely man. And where should people follow you just for anyone who does like someone would listen to this on Spotify and all this stuff not on Twitter. So where should people follow you to stay in touch? So you mean the Twitter handle? Twitter handle, whatever you're going
Yeah, I think Twitter handle we share most of our updates on Twitter as well. It's at and then a diva protocol in one word underscore IO. And this is where most alpha about diva is coming out I guess exactly.
We also have a website where we publish blog posts, but typically if you follow us on Twitter, you will be notified about any blog posts that we publish. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on today and speaking with us. This has been great.
and we really look forward to seeing you here in Cosmos. Thanks for having me, Manitia. Excited to learn more about Cosmos. Definitely. I think, honestly, I think Ethereum, I used to be a big Ethereum guy. I used to be very deep into the Ethereum
ecosystem. But yeah, obviously, it took the Cosmos pill and went all in on Cosmos now. But I think the two ecosystems, obviously, they are bound to interconnect in so many different ways. And we'll only start seeing it more and more. So yeah,
If you're starting the theory, which you guys are doing, it's only a matter of time before we see you in the cosmos, I think. Yes. Beautiful. All right. All right. Thank you so much for coming on and take care. Godspeed. Thank you, everyone. Bye bye. Ciao.