Hello everyone and welcome to the club. I can see who did as whether to speak. I will just approve now.
be able to speak with it. You never know what these sets were in spaces. You speak right now.
Yeah, hey guys. Oh, good day. Yes, loud and clear. I was a bad friend.
Okay, so definitely so yeah, you've got the first time that we host you guys so
So yeah, first of all, welcome back to the club. Yeah, it's going to be back. I presume that you guys haven't been sued by the SEC in a chance, like everybody else in crypto these days.
They might have, but she can be, don't know what they're doing. All right, I can see people starting to settle in. So this is the take it off. So welcome everyone to the customers club where we talk all things customers. It's with data about what's going on.
We invite interesting, fascinating, hardworking builders to spaces like these. And today we have Oudit, who is from Stakeysee. Welcome back Oudit. Thanks for having me. Hi, Arunval. We'll actually start these spaces.
a little more with a personal touch, you can say. People in crypto and it costs us a particular, they come from all walks of life, it seems, you know, obviously very technical people who has an engineering background, typically, there's very financial people, there's
And created people even the other day I spoke to someone or was interviewing someone on the space like this. I was a capable engineer my background. So yeah, I think it's safe to say that people from all walks of life come to this space. So once you're story with this, how did you end up working with
for and with Steggy Singh. So for me, I started, I think, my couple journey back in January 31. It's been like two and a half years. I was working in a trading desk before that. So my co-founder
He was actually working within crypto. He was working in the algorithm ecosystem. He was building some developer tooling, which was quite similar to what anyone who's developer must have heard of harder in Ethereum. So he was building that for that.
We were discussing this, how things are from within blockchain forward developer point of view. Because at that time, I just knew it from Bitcoin going from 10,000 to 20,000 to 30,000. So that was the news around that time. That was like every other month, it would go much more higher.
every news channel would just flash it in the headlines. So I was just curious then like, is there like what's the reason behind this much hype and like is there any development going on in that area? So in April we decided that okay we can
and we started to discuss stuff. Then I came to understand what decentralized finance and defa is. And we started with Secret Network. So we built out a developer tooling called Polar. We are still maintaining that. And slowly started to understand the course musical system and
the whole concept of cosmosom and I was really interested in me and I started to understand what are the missing pieces that we understand and we can develop well and what are the ecosystem and how other people work within the space.
Okay, I thought you were saying a bit more. Yeah, so beautiful. So I think without further ado, basically, let's talk about stake easy. I mean, we all think most of us at least we know about the cost taking sits, the cost taking percons. We have a few on
And on Crosse was now, when you guys started out, there wasn't that many, if any life at all. So yeah, talk to us about steak easy and perhaps put a bit of color also to how they could steak as it's really unleash defy, not just in customers, but beyond also.
you on with the, sorry about that actually I just got a call and I Twitter disconnected my speakers. So yeah coming to point so stay kz but I'm sorry like what was the question again? Yeah so I was just asking
about what Steg easy is, talk to us as if this is the first time we hear about Steg easy. I know we've been talking about it before, but yeah, talk to us as if I'm a listener that hears about Steg easy the first time. And then what I also ask in addition is put a bit of color perhaps on the potential of
of linguistaking assets. Obviously, people are right now talking about how linguistaking assets, linguistaking derivatives, whatever we want to call them. They are the key to unleash DeFi in all kinds of ecosystems, not just cosmos, but perhaps in particular for cosmos with the linguistake ECB.
So, Sticky C, what it is is a liquid sticking derivative for Cosmos space assets. Liquid sticking in summary in two lines would be that you have your crypto assets, certainly let's
say you have your item, your secret, your Juneau. You can stake those and by staking you can lock it up with the weldator and you get some passive income through it which is sort of this inflation that
you can accrue by sticking it. So the reason this taking exists is there needs to be some some amount of assets that needs will locked up to provide security to the network. So the network needs that sort of security from their users. And so
So there needs to be a mechanism for network to convince users to lock up their assets. So this inflation comes in the picture as incentive for anyone who wants to. Like this is this becomes a reason to stay because now by taking it you're actually growing rewards for it.
And if let's say you are a long term holder, it makes sense to just take it then not to do it because you would lose out on that inflation. And so currently how taking works within course forces you take it if you want to withdraw it you have to wait 21 days for
to unlock. And so that is there for the security reasons that if this 21 day speed adverse note there anyone could this or there could be a blacks on event like let's say the market is crashing a lot. So most of the people would just immediately opt out of their sticking position.
and immediately sell and someone might get hold of more than 3% of the total assets within the network and essentially tick control the network. So you don't want that to happen that's why there's this 21 day burning period. So but the corn for this
warning period is that now for example within Cosmos of atom is the asset that you can see not within the Cosmos of but within the whole Cosmos ecosystem atom is the most liquid asset or the asset with the largest value. So if
So it's most, it's still there, maybe right?
So, if this atom is stick with the data, it can't be with the data, for example, if the state for the quality within osmosis is needed for it to be lined out so that anyone can borrow through maybe
or march. So these things do take a toll because now these DeFi protocols have to compete with the staking rewards. So anyone who holds item would not choose any of the DeFi protocols if they are not giving you that 21 or 20% that your
taking you through the sticking you're getting for your item. So it creates that gap that no defa protocol can really grow because now there's this huge inflation that you're getting on your assets through sticking a liquid sticking solstice where it introduces
which means that you take your item, take your, you know.
is taken and then you can take the data which represents your example in case of taking is you can actually to know which is taken and you take this decision not to open and you can deposit it in a liquidity pool or you can deposit in a lending protocol and you can use it as a replacement for this
So the same goes for the actual product and for any other asset. So this is the main problem that we are using source, it solves the liquidity grant for 25 protocols. It's still, by doing so, it still allows people to speak like that. So essentially, the network can be
get more stake, but now people who are just 20, 25 and also are just waiting to go to stake and go to stake and people who are just taking that open can also put in the sense. So it helps to use our second-event rewards. I think our protocols get more energy
and the network gets more tokens, as things make use of this. So for Staggysy, how it does different than other LiPoThing protocols that we introduced two tokens. So there are, like from what I have seen, there are three broadways you can implement
So once you wish for a liquid second token, it must accrue the statement rewards in some form. What I mean by that if let's say you have a SU Juno. So if I get a SU Juno and if I withdraw my stick to
know after six months then the six month period should whatever sticking to votes I get for that six month period should be also withdrawn by me once I let's say withdrawn my whole amount. So three ways it has done one is that let's say you stick your hundred to know you get hundred s's you know back and after
6 month, one SU-Junoise birth more number of Junos and you essentially get more number of more than 100 Junos for the same number of 100 SU-Juno at the end of 6 months. That's one way. Second way is that the number of SU-Juno 2 can would increase and but the ratio would remain the
same. Third is that the ratio will remain the same and the number of histidunoids will also remain the same but while holding your histiduno you can claim more tune over time. That's how like B2 no works in our case. So the first and third mechanism we have implemented and we have implemented in such a way that
you can interchange between the two without having to wait for the one-ing period. And the reason for doing this is if you have SC Juno Juno pair or any other liquid signal token that increases in value, there's a slight in permanent loss that happens over time if you pull these two tokens to
together because they are not always 1 is 1 ratio or not even the same ratio over time. So, but if you have B2 now which is always 1 is 1 ratio you you can essentially have 0 in permanent lows over long time. So, that's the reason for doing this and
And there's a slight cone that might, you just might see as a cone and start your fragmenting liquid that now the needs to be as you know, you know, and you know, but either way, it's not actually fragmented liquid because if let's say there's an arbitrage between the two, anyone can just quickly switch.
So, you know, the S/U/NOT to B/U/NOT through our contracts and replace it back and even the prices. And if you want to liquidate any position in S/U/NOT, you can do that with B/U/NOT pair and the same vice versa by just converting the tokens back. So, yeah, that's the summary of the click-staking and sticky.
beautiful. And how do you see liquid staking assets that for example comes from stake easy? How is that helping or potentially even unleashing DeFi, the potential of DeFi? I'm sure you can summarize this also, but generally the problem that
people have seen with the proof-stake chains by Cosmos chains is that okay so you have you secure the network by sticking your assets right I mean that technology works clearly but the problem is you lock up all the quality into a security network into staking
So there's no liquidity left for DeFi and all the other things that we want to do on chain. So yeah, tell us about how StakeEasy could potentially resolve that and alleviate that handicap that proof of stake chains often suffer from.
Yep, so this thing is I would say like more common in cosmos than in it all EVM chains for example, Ethereum has 4% in patient so like different protocols just have to beat that 5% so but within cosmos ecosystem you have change with 20% 30%
So it's much harder for the protocol to compete within the course of the ecosystem. So there's more need of liquid stake in the ecosystem than in the EVM one. And the way Stagency does it and other liquid seeking protocol do it is you
the liquid stick token. So the first, I think the most common default protocols are DEXs, lending borrowing and then maybe future spurs and then options. So for DEXs, you can solve the liquidity problem. Let's say you have
osmo atom pair. You can replace this not totally replaces but you can have more soliquity in for example, biosmo and B atom pair like these two ones are tacking one is one with these underlying tokens and so one B
would always remain one or four and one be at a would always remain one at a. So this pair we essentially have the same you can say the same prices ratio at any given time with at a most of the so anyone let's say who wants to arbitrage with this
this pool from another pool or maybe from other centralized, 16, that surprise moment. You can do that here also. But the benefit is that now anyone providing liquidity to this pair is getting the sticking rewards from their Osmo and from their item while this pool has liquidity. So you can like this definitely need for Osmo
more atom pair or at least Osmo, BOsmo and atom B atom pair so that people can still trade between Osmo and atom. But like you can have a scenario where like this 70% of the liquidity within this BOsmo and B atom pair and the remaining 30% could be in either Osmo and atom pair
or be osmosmos and same beer time and not beer. What this would do is that you would still have same amount of liquidity while you are trading between osvo and atom. But now 70% of this liquidity is accruing stake in rewards. So any sort of inflation, inflation rewards you have to give as
So this is one of the major problems with Dex is that there's very heavy inflation just to cover those incentives for people to still keep on providing liquidity because those who are providing liquidity are also losing out on informative loss. So if you're taking that risk of informative loss, you need to maintain
and device with some form of inflationary rewards. So those inflationary rewards can be totally replaced by the stake in the rewards that your BIOS will be at a separate age. And then for the lending, you can do similarly that let's say you have lent out item to borrow some USDC and you lend it out for
you use the items corrector and the loan period is for example six months. Now if the data most of the data let's say is not being lent or with someone else it's sitting there within the lending protocol. What it could be doing is for better capital efficiency is it should be staked with some elder that it can accrues taking you
and it can help secure the network. So you can do that through liquid singing derivatives. You can put any liquid singing derivative as a collateral. Boro, USDC against it. So now that I'm sitting over there is a growing divorce and not sitting idle. And while this collateral is also increasing in value
So any user, so there are some lending protocols in works, which does it better specifically for the QSIG in derivative in a way that they call it self-repeying loans. So for example, currently, I don't know like let's say there's 20% inflation on item and you take out a loan.
where the interest is 10%. So after one year you pay 10% interest back and the whole loan amount also. But if you are, if it was a self-repeying loan, what it would do is that it will use the stake in awards from that call atleast that 20% you are getting
and it gives 20% to pay back the interest with just 10% and the remaining 10% you can get back as a user. So you are taking out the loan without paying any interest. So that's one more interesting thing you can do with LeCostic Interators. And same with, sorry,
I was just finishing off saying that same applies for options protocol where you take out where you use the liquid seeking token as asset as the collateral to issue your option. So if you issue any option, let's say there's a call or a photo option, you pay that premium to
secure yourself. So a call option is saying that okay, item price is currently hovering around $10 and I just want to hedge my position saying that if it goes let's say much lower to 7 or 8 or below that, I want to be still be able to sell it at $10. So I issue
Let's say an option to sell it at $10 or any time in future. But you have to pay that some premium for issuing it. So that premium can be set off with the staking rewards you're getting once you have issued that option. So that's kind of like a self repain option. That's also one thing can be done.
Right on, man. Yeah, there's a lot of strategies and opportunities really that comes out of taking your assets. I think you summarized many of them. But let's talk about security. Obviously, taking your assets means that you secure the network.
So I think a fair question is if you liquid stake instead of staking, then you basically trust that the liquid stake in protocol is derivative. But in this case, a protocol like Stag Easy, you trust that the protocol is built in a way that's secure, right?
otherwise it might be an attack vector. The talk was about security with Stake E C and how you guys have recently actually ruled out and updated. You had an announcement, a little bit of an announcement recently I think was this week or last week about the MOL sort of secure and safe way of
So for security, what we had done was that we didn't have any enough funds for getting a full fill. Like we did catch one order done earlier on. And so what we have
time to make sure that it's working. It's as secure as it can be as we try to run the test set as long as we can. So for Secret Network once we launch a year back in March last year, we ran the test set for a month and a half. When it's released on June of the year, we ran the test set for
three and a half months and the same goes for now what we are realizing for the V2 for the secret network we have ran that has been for nearly three months now and on top of it we have also released an immunified bound team which has been running for the past two or three months roughly and they're
has been like a couple of minor, minor small issues, not issues but like just safety text that people have found that of you can improve on this but nothing critical, nothing like insecure has been found yet and there has been like at least six, seven or eight bounty hunters have
same who have gone through our contracts in detail and given that we do. So and also given the fact that the same contracts have been running fine for more than a year on secret and you know and still hasn't got any sugar. And other than that, we have our own tooling, which is
polar and bosom that we have written and we have also written a way to simply write integration tests for your contracts which we have ourselves used quite a lot like we have written like we have spent more time writing those tests than spending writing the contracts itself so I would say
say like if you combine all of those things, you would make the protocols as secure as it can be. But still like we are still humans like we don't know, like we might have missed something. But so we still try to look for any potential optimization that can happen or any
lexical to this that might happen in futures or we just are prepared for that. And yeah, other than that.
There's also ways we are identifying how we can diversify the weld data set itself. So currently like we have 10 to 20 weldators that can be allowed for for our assets to be state. So if anyone is taking that you know those get
divided roughly equally among C-10 weldators. But what a better way could be is that these set of weldators should not be just decided welder developers, but should be decided by either the posters of the protocol or the governance of the underlying
So there are a couple of contacts we have written for those which we have been tested for the past few months. So yeah, the next thing we have in line is first to get the liquid shaking life
for secret with the V2 version, which we already have just deployed today to mainnet. And probably by tomorrow or after tomorrow, we'll have the UI ready and the announcement on Twitter and Discord. And after that, we'll be rolling out that, secure that, and later update.
beautiful. Sorry I was also mute. That's what that's on me. That's great man. I mean securing a network is arguably one of the most important things that we can do. We are in such uncharted territory and uncertain waters.
with the regulators and all that coming after crypto as a whole. It's so important that we stay secure, make sure that the network continues to validate blocks one block at a time, because there are people out there who just
looking for an opportunity to crush our industry. So, the great to hear, that's taking security very serious, well done, well done. Talk to us about the different assets that we can liquid state with stake easy, again, assume that people haven't
out your website or platform or protocol in general. So what the assets can they stake? They could stake with the stake easy. And perhaps talk about the roadmap ahead of what can people expect from stake easy in the coming weeks, months or years.
So for the mainnet we have liquid sighing for secret and juno live already and we have been working on getting the liquid sighing for atom live through neutron. So neutron has this like very detailed implementation of
interchain accounts to cause over the contracts. So I would summarize that thing is like how we liquid stake is that we have a set of contracts that issue the liquid seeking token and people deposit to it. So there needs to be some like the cosmosum should be enabled within the chain itself.
which is the case for secret and jr. But it's not the case for course was up. So for any chain that does not have that, neutrons sort of folds start for us. So what neutrons allow is that we can deploy the contacts on neutrons and we can send out the interchained account messages through neutrons to let's
they're going to say Cosmos hub saying that there's a user who says that I want to look at straight my items, they can deposit their item to our contracts on newtron and our contracts would send out their item to Cosmos hub and stake it on their behalf. And if they want to withdraw in the future, they would use the same entertain account message to unstick it back
and use the related back. So yeah, in our roadmap, we have the next thing is to get the liquid signal for atom life. And yeah, after that, possibly for us, we're going through the same similar mechanism. And yeah, that's the also, I think,
So, I should mean it is coming next month. So, it will probably have something for that, not to sure about that. In the long run, we do have plans to improve the utility of the liquid-signan derivative. So, there are a few, so there's one really interesting use case.
of liquid second derivative which we have seen recently as being termed as LST5 which is like one great utility is stabilizing the passive interest from your let's say so what that means is you you have your item
you get some yield from sticking to get maybe some yield from providing the quality. Like there is some x source of yield for your atom. All of these sources of yield are dynamic. Like they depend on different different aspects like your sticking yield depends on how
many people have staked. If very few percentage of people have staked, you will get very high part of inflation. You can get up to 25, like 30% rate of, but if let's say 70, 80% of the data is staked, you will get somewhere around 12, 13%. So this is like a very
volatile interest rate. There's an implementation like I think within Ethereum there's a bundle that has successfully done it. It allows anyone to fix their year while utilizing this liquid-saving assets that they have these worlds where you deposit your liquid-saving asset and depend
understanding about how the market base that for the next six months how the inflation for this liquid state the sticking inflation would be they would say that okay I've seen in the past that atom inflation atom liquid sticking gives you 12 to 15 percent so why not we collectively decide to give us capability of
13% so anyone who anyone can basically turn their variable yield to fixed yield of this 13% and anyone else can do vice versa. What this allows is that if someone feels like okay you might go down I want to fix my yield so if someone feels that okay I'm getting
this fixed shield but I feel like he might increase later on. So, people can speculate on yield in that way and the other benefit is people who want, let's say, a predictable yield in the long term would get this benefit like you have these things in traditional
finance where like if you have let's say there are like interest rate instruments where like you get a fixed yield and you can borrow in the fixed yield also but that doesn't exist yet in like at least in cost was defied so that's wonderful it will be looking for in a long time.
awesome and awesome. And then I guess let's try to go a bit beyond the coming weeks, months, and perhaps even years and go like five years from now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, pick your year really. Let's take the long term view because we tend to think
very short term in crypto and in costmas, what is our roadmap and what are we going to deliver on in the coming weeks kind of vibe. But I think it's healthy sometimes to stop and think about okay, where are we heading with Stake E.C.? If you sit 15
years from now in your garden, in your front yard or whatever, wherever you're comfortable and look back to what the Stegis has become. What would make you think like, okay, wow, this is exactly what we set out to build and what we try to, what we aim for. How would Stegis it look like then?
That's a lot of years. Okay, let me see. It's been 10 years also, five years. You choose. The general question is basically how does Steggy's look like long term? I think by that time, they won't even
such a thing as taking like because because if you look at the past 10 years there was Bitcoin or two for work there they don't exist any proof of stake they're they're going to exist and it's taking and now all of the major change except Bitcoin are all proof of stake so proof of work is kind of like no one talks about it so
I would say most likely it would happen that there would be another third thing which is an improvement upon two four states. So maybe due to that thing, liquid sticking won't be that much relevant or it could be the other way around that someone even someone even
optimizes this liquid shaking into some more, let's say make it even more liquid in some other way. Like I don't know like how this would go but definitely it would be much more different and better than what we have right now. And yeah it would be like like we have banks
giving out interest there would be banks giving out interest where they would be taking these assets within public blockages. And yeah, I would say taking would become more of a common thing like it just won't be us within the costless space or within the
is best knowing about staking but every other person would know about it. So maybe staking is if it still has proper stil that time it would be providing those services and helping banks provide these strategies kind of things.
We think just a quick follow-off because that's what kept me thinking when you were talking just now. Do you think the cost-taking assets which are obviously yield-bearing? So you get yields from just holding them. Do you think they will replace all these other yield products, even perhaps banks like
A lot of people, for example, they talk about these statement-staking protocols being a new form of bank, really. You deposit, stake, if you will, your assets with stake-easy, for example, similar to how you deposit money to a bank, and then you get some interest, some yield. Like very basic bank
making function of course banks, they do many other things, but the core banking functionality is sort of what the crystal protocols are doing. So I guess just to throw back the pattern here, do you think the crystal-taking protocols like Stake Easy can replace banks?
I don't think it would totally replace banks but it would happen that banks would start to realize that this technology makes sense for most, at least for our people to guess some passive yield out of their thoughts. It will be similar to like how email
They will replace postal services, like there are postal services for you to send. Let's say about their gifts. But the most of the exchange happens to email and through chat. So it will be kind of like a luxury thing to do it the traditional bank way.
but since like this open blockchain ways much more transparent and much more predictable people would most likely be opting out for opting for this one because there would be much more east to it than the than our traditional banks to it but currently how banks are working would
still not be completely based. It will still exist as a luxury thing or like access or like it will have its own benefits that a few sort of people would feel like they would need that. But yeah, I would say like how email replaced post and services would happen with these things.
And obviously, being the Cosmos Club, we are very focused on Cosmos. No surprise. So how do you think Cosmos, the Cosmos Tech stack, the Cosmos community, how does that help Staggy see achieve your goal, really? Your vision here.
So I think how course force ecosystem differentiates from other ecosystem as cells of renty and the interconnectivity, blockchains itself. So like there's a very defined protocol of how these blockchains communicate with each other.
with the other ecosystem as well, that goes from ecosystem as well. And I would say that's the most important thing right now. But if you see within how geopolitical things are, that each country has its own sovereignty and their own
internal things like if a person were to do anything like to travel from within the country from one city to another it's a different dynamic than you traveling from one country to another but you're still able to do both of these within blockchain you can't like you can move around within the blockchain itself but you can't just
the move for one block into another. And so even in financial sector also like you have swift for banks like this easy mechanism for banks to interoperate within the country, but if they want to interpret operate outside the country to any other bank they have to use this.
You're a cut's, but it's, you know, if you're getting a call or something, but we're not able to hear right now.
I think we have wooded back. I don't know. You are new right now. Sorry about that. Yeah, I was saying. Yeah, the dentist with protocol for banks will operate. That's not the
very important things to have. So I would say like in the long term this would be for hand that postmas will have that they have the ability to interpret pretty smoothly with each other. Yeah that's what I have.
Awesome man. So is there anything we left out? Is there anything we can do as a community to help you guys progress at stake easy? What do you want to ask the community for? How do you want to close the signal off? I think we did cover a lot of things.
But yeah, I would love to get people to know how like, sick is it can improve right now. And what let's say what be for integrations, they want to see the most so we can push harder for those ones first than the others.
That's good man. So that'd be a suggestion or call for the community to go and follow of course, take easy, give some feedback, try, stay easy to stick with them. Yeah. It's your act basically as the great community that we are.
Thank you so much for coming back on and looking forward to see you continue its progress on Stake EZ. So we will make sure at the club here to follow you guys. That's for sure.
Thank you for coming back on. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you very much. Thank you, man. Ciao.