Hello everyone and welcome to the club. I can see people are starting to tune in. The guys from White Whale is here. Just improving their request to speak.
I can see you're on mute for now. Awesome. Hey, man. Can you hear us? Allowed and clear. How are you doing? Beautiful. I'm great. Welcome back to the club, man. Happy to be here. Thank you.
Lots been going on, huh? It's it's a while out there. I assume you haven't been sued by the SEC by like everybody else these days Not yet, but we keep our guard up. You never know what happens But it looks like the SEC just did this to give black rock a good entry so who knows
It's crazy man. I mean the timing it's just so obvious when you when you look at the timing like is it a week after they suit the Coinbase and Binance US and then boom black rock, Citadel, Fidelity, the list goes on. Everybody is filing for
I need to get Bitcoin is here for on new exchange crypto exchange. I don't know this these guys are these guys are wild Yeah, it's a doggy dog world out there That's true. Yeah, it makes me more pessimistic than usual normally I'm quite an optimistic person
person, but that's just sad. I mean, look at this from this perspective. You probably got some Bitcoin and Bitcoin's gonna go up and they can take your Bitcoin. So that's a good thing, I suppose. True. Now is the time to pile up. Don't sell to institutions.
You shouldn't. That's the first message on this space today. But that's what we're here to talk about. Paper Bitcoin, just buy real Bitcoin. Oh, yeah. Paper promises. Oh, yes, for sure. Don't fall for the whole fee shenanigans that these guys are doing.
Like they are making, I don't know how much out of this in the background. So better just buy and hold when it comes to Bitcoin at least. May I ask you where you're from? Your accent sounds European. Yeah, I'm sitting here at Denmark. Mark from Denmark. It's easy to remember.
mark from Denmark. It is easy to remember. Nice. What about yourself? You sitting in the Europe or the US or
Yeah, I come originally from Germany, but I live in Switzerland now. Nice. Nice. Not too far away. Yeah, so it's evening over where you are then also. Yeah, it is. It is also so hot in
Denmark it's like scorching here. I'm sitting here sweating my ass off and it's 9 pm my time here in my office so yeah it's very warm I presume the same thing where you are if you're in Switzerland
It is. It is. All right, but I think I can see people are already here. So let's not leave people in suspense anymore. So welcome everyone to the Cosmos Club, but we talk all things Cosmos.
between DADIA about what's going on. And then we write interesting, fascinating, hardworking builders of the Cosmos ecosystem. And today we are honored to have Wide Wheel back with us. Thank you so much for coming on, man.
Well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to speaking with you here today. Definitely. I mean, I normally like to start these spaces with a little bit of a personal touch. People in crypto and in costments in particular, they come from all walks of life.
Some people are very technical of course, building, heads down. Some people come with financial backgrounds, graphic designers, artists come to the space. And then of course, there's the odd cats like the other day, for example, I spoke to a chemical engineer, someone with a chemical engineer.
engineering background. So what's your story? How did you end up building and working on the white wheel? How did I end up here? So my journey starts probably a couple of years back on a computer scientist by academics. I used to focus more on AI
and I worked as assistant researchers, they were doing my studies. But somehow I got dragged into crypto. I think Sentinel was the first coin I actually looked up even before Bitcoin because I was fascinated by decentralized VPNs.
I think it didn't turn out too great, but that's how I ended up in crypto. And I remember the day I really got serious about crypto was in the cosmos hackathon, I think, 2020. And I built an arbitrage spot there.
And that's how I noticed white whale who at that time were building an open arbitrage system on Terra. Now obviously that day is long gone, but that's how I ended up there. And currently I serve as the CTO of white whale.
Awesome. And I just invited also a white whale. I didn't notice until now to become a speaker. So I don't know if there's anyone who wants to talk from the main account also, but I'm going to make sure before I get too far in the space.
Hey everybody, Ponzi, Ninja here speaking. I'm business development at White Whale. Yeah, I'm just here for visibility usually. So I'll let Sancom do the majority of the talk and then if I had to have to add something, I'll jump in once in a while.
but yeah, St. Comma is the main guest here. Perfect. I'll direct the questions towards you, St. Comma, and then you just pitch in whenever you feel free. So yeah, I mean obviously people in Cosmos, they are probably aware of White Whale that it exists, but I think about
A lot of people are unaware of what it is really. So coming from a CTO perspective, I think we are in very good hands to understand better what is white whale, what is the solution really, and to change the quality, like that, just what is that really?
And how does it work? Can you elaborate on that? Of course, I try to cut it short. So what is Whitewell? So Whitewell is a company that we run validators across more than a dozen chains here in the cosmos. We secure some eight figures in assets.
a core contributor to the MiGaLu blockchain. That's a permissionless smart contract blockchain with cross-chain staking capabilities. It's live on Maynard for I think four or three months now. Going good so far. We're also the core contributor to the Y2L protocol.
That's an interchannel liquidity network and we're alive on five main nets already including Injective, Terra, Condex, Xunu and Chihuahua chain and our app consists of decks and flash-down bolts. And lastly, we're also contributors to various
open source MEV solutions such as R retrashable liquidation bots. So that's a mouthful, so I think we need to dig deeper into any of those four things that you like. But if you're new to this space, check out the Twitter page of Y2A. There's a link tree and it probably
provides you with everything you need to get started. And also, do me a favor, give everybody here on stage, the Whiteville account and also Cosmos Club follow and retweet this space with Hashtag right the whale so people know what's happening here. Beautiful. I love the sentiment. But yeah, feel free to dive
to all four really, you don't have to go super deep. But I think a lot of people here at the club, they obviously know about Cosmos. They are bought into Cosmos typically and understand many of the technical sort of in-depth technical stuff. They might not be developers, but they understand on the superficial
level if you will. So yeah, for free to try to uncover at least for someone who is not as as early as technical as you, but understand the basics of the setup of, of course, the IPC and the customer stack and all those things. So the voilelements are quite well. How is made up for free to uncover all
for them? Of course. Let's start with the problem that we're trying to solve because it's easier to go from, you know, to understand the problem first and then it's, you know, the solution comes naturally. So one of the, there are a couple of major problems in, you know, the crypto or Cosmos space specifically.
One of them is that every time a new chain spins up, they don't have what I call basic building blocks. So imagine you're building a house, you don't want to bother with laying pipes for water or water supply. You just want to plug in your house.
with electricity. You don't want to run a generator, you just want to tap electricity and you go. And with blockchains, there are different building blocks. They are the very technical ones that are mostly taken care of, spinning up a blockchain is comparatively easy now. But what about DeFi building blocks? For example, a DEX or a FLASH
flashlums or liquid staking. Those are really the number one basic blocks you need to build more complex and more sophisticated DeFi NFT ecosystems. And most of the chains don't have them. They have to give up grants for new teams and on every chain you have a different decks.
Now that's a problem. First it waste a lot of resources because you have to reinvent the wheel every time. But also imagine you're like you're in a game, a game developer and you want to provide access to your game on different chains because you know why
limit yourself on one chain. You can get on a lot of chains. So they want to do this. But the game needs a Dex. For example, they want to allow users to play in any token, you know, there is. So they need access to a Dex. So for every new chain they go, there's a different Dex.
So for every new chain, they have to integrate with a different text, manage relations there, manage the liquidity, and do a lot of developing and engineering work. Let's, yeah, like reinventing the wheel from a game developer perspective, every time they launch a new chain. So what we are doing is we have
This is product group at White Whale. It's a decks and flash long walls. We have deployed them on many different chains. A couple of teams in the space, they saw this, what we're doing, what we're solving. They said, "Hey, we want to go cross chain and we don't
We just want to go plug and play. You know, we need a Dex on every chain. You got a Dex on every chain so we can just plug and play, you know, integrated ones and deploy everywhere. And that's how we want to play.
We formulated something like a right joint venture kind of like where white whale goes to a new chain, we deploy our products there, and then a group of different teams, they come along and then they just build their cross chain apps around us. So this is like a cross chain ecosystem.
Another major point we're trying to solve, building on top of our own infrastructure, top of all these taxes, is to create something like an interchanged liquidity network. So instead of providing liquidity individually to all the different taxes and all the different chains, you can just
deposit ones and then liquidity just flows to wherever it's needed on whatever blockchain it is between our Dexas. Now this part isn't live yet that's very experimental and really really really pushing the state of the art about this you know cross chain app and
DeFi ecosystem we're building with these different teams in our let's call it loose joint venture. That's life already. We're doing already fantastic things with a couple of teams backbone labs there here in the space as well. They're their liquid staking provider. They're part of our group. So that's really
I think that's in a nutshell what we're doing on the DeFi application side. Beautiful man. I mean, it's the way I like to think about it is no more silos, right? I mean, most people in customers, they buy into the interchain, multi-chain future with protocol.
calls can talk to each other, share messages and all that. And one of the important messages is how to share liquidity between. I mean, all these different chains, they end up having a silo liquidity, making up a bad trading experience because of high fees, slippage, whatever. And that's exactly what we are
trying to solve with something like Cosmos, IBC and the TechStack with Cosmos. And the way I like to think about it at least is that white whale makes that happen, right? I mean, it literally doesn't flow efficiently across IBC chains just by itself. It's something or someone.
has to do it and that's where I see Whitewell at the centerpiece of this. And the catchphrase that you guys have also just the root of the copypasting from you guys is that you stabilize prices across the IBC, right? It's a benefit of course for users is that
the liquidity flows much more freely, but something that people don't really, I think, underestimate at least, is that prices are way more efficient, way more stabilized across the ABC network. So that's something that I think people should keep in mind when they think about, okay, why do we need this again? Why do we need wide-wale? I mean,
this is why. But it's not just for making IPC and Cosmos great, there's also a profitable element to this. Maybe you can dwell a bit on that, talk to us about how the protocol actually generates yield, et cetera, with this technology.
Sure. So again, it's important to remember that we have this block chain. So we have the full value mechanism of general purpose layer ones. And it's powered by this whale token and or cross chain app, even though it's it's a different entry
entity in that sense, it's still powered by the same token. And on every chain where we are, now it's five chains but we have around a dozen chains in the pipeline are lined up and it's a hard job to prioritize this actually but we have a lot of chains lined up that
want us to deploy there. And as I said, we have this product group, DAX and flash line walls, and on every swap and on every flash line taken, there's a fee. I mean, everybody knows this. Most of the fee goes back into the pool of the wall, back to the liquidity providers, but a small part of the fee is
taken away and collected. And once a day on all the satellite markets we have, this mechanism happens, fear taken, feasts are set aside. And once a day all the feasts are cured, they're used to buy back the whale token from the open market and distribute it to people
people who have locked their liquid-staked whale on those satellite markets. So that's one part of this value mechanism where the more activity, maybe trading activity, maybe flash-down activity, the more fees collected and the more buyback from the open market happens. And one very important thing
important piece of this is that we have these open source MEV solutions, for example, arbitrage bots. So interestingly, most of the volume that happens in crypto is actually not people actually buying or selling, but it's bots. It's bots doing stuff and one of one type of
those spots are between spots. And the idea is, you have two markets. For example, you have a whale, a UCC pool on one dex, and a whale UCC pool on another dex. For example, we have one on our Smoses, we have whale, Osmo. But anyways, we have different markets on different dexes.
When there's a difference in their pricing, you can essentially buy low and sell high. And that's what arbitrage is. And in crypto, it happens pretty fast. That's why you take flash loans, you take capital, you do the trade, and then you take back or pay back the low and pocket the profit.
Yep, this is the way when you are an arbitrage bot or an arbitrage trader. So talk to us about the different chains and ecosystems that you're in. You have a nice graphic, I think, on your Twitter profile, a pinned tweet, so anyone who hasn't checked that out.
They can go there, but yeah, as you mentioned in the beginning also you you are on the Juno Network, Terra Injective, Comdex, Guava, Guava, Casar and I think you're also coming to Gujira, Panama, I'm sure. So yeah, talk to
about the different ecosystems that you are in already and the one that's coming perhaps. And maybe also why did you decide on those initially? I know there's multiple networks but what's the decision making process if you will choosing a network? Sure.
Yeah, you correctly pointed out the chains we're on. I think what's important to mention before I go directly at your question is that that a lot of apps that focus just on a single chain, they are bound or limited by that ecosystem.
So let me give you a very spicy example. So if you were to build on Juno right now, you'd have a problem because there's a lot of drama in the ecosystem and the price is just, you know, tanking non-stop. So that's bad for you. So it's pretty insane actually how it's just keeping, keeping all time
although almost at a daily basis it's a bit sad to press it. It is very sad but don't understand this as you know shading on Juno just as an example for what happens to projects that just go on a single chain. You have a problem or what happened with Terra. Most of the apps back in the days they
were just on Terra, Terra exploded, and then they had a hard time. Most of them left because they had nothing anymore. So there's a lot of benefit to building your apps cross-chain. And regarding our current deployments, so what all these chains, besides Injective and Condex, haven't
common is they are permissionless chains so you can just go ahead to ploy your app and you're done and that makes it very easy for us so they were kind of like low-hanging fruits now obviously Terra we have history there because the protocol was originally built on Terra but Chihuahua
and do you know their permission was changed and that makes it very easy for us to build there. The permission chains, they do have certain, they can have their appeal if the ecosystem is, they have a very strong ecosystem, good vision and we see opportunity there. Then we go through the extra work of the
deploying there as well. So who's next in line regarding deployments? So we haven't actually deployed on our own chain yet. That's what we're going to do in the, I hope we get it done by the end of next week or end of the week. So that's that's a quick deployment for us.
And then we're looking a little bit outside of the cosmos. Because again, we have a very, very flexible system. We have our own chain that's the centerpiece, the heart of what we are doing and what other teams are building, but our outposts.
You know, we can deploy them virtually everywhere where we can, you know, where our contracts run. So that makes it really, really, really, we're really flexible and it puts us in a very good spot to navigate this really fast changing world. And
As I said, we're looking a little bit outside the cosmos. We're still looking in what's but also a little bit outside. So after we've deployed our own chain, next two in line are probably lunar classic because lunar classic, it's kind of ridiculous. They have this history and
there's some bad connotation around it, but it has a huge market cap that dwarfs most cost most chains. Still, after over a year, and they have a very large, gigantic community that is just waiting for
Serious apps to come back because right now after a year all the community is still there all the liquidity or a lot of liquidity is still there but apps there are no serious teams building there very free so from a business perspective that just makes a lot of sense for us
And then we have composable finance. That's the chain that tries to connect the Polkadot ecosystem with the cosmos. And that's also very interesting. And that's also very good. Yeah. They're fantastic guys. And we're just, you know, in talks with them, streamlining
our approach and our processes to get live there, rather sooner than later. And again, this is also a great opportunity for us because the customer's right now is in a tight situation. There's liquidity is drying up. There's not too many actual
team's building in the cosmos. It's getting less and less, unfortunately. So the goblin market is really showing its ugly face. So with our flexible approach, we can just look a little bit outwards. And that's fantastic. So with composable finance, there's like
this gate away between the whole polka dot ecosystem and the cosmos ecosystem. And we want to position ourselves with the decks, with the flash loans, and our partners want, you know, they want to position themselves as well as, you know, at the forefront or at the gates to the other ecosystem.
systems. So yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Just a little bit more in general. So how do we prioritize this? So it's on the one hand, it's workload, you know, permission chains are a pain in the ass compared to permission lists. And then it's about opportunity.
and what our community wants. And that, I believe, is the most important thing. So where does the community want us to go? Makes sense. And I actually get quite bullish on cost was a general when cost was projects, which I would label you
as WhiteWale is a costless project originally. I get very bullish when people like you guys go beyond costmas, taking IBC with you or whatever technology that you have built using the costless stack to go to other ecosystems with it.
proofs or confirms that the technology works and is solid and arguably you would probably get other projects and other ecosystems interested at least in in Cosmos Tech. So yeah I'm a big fan of that to be quite honest and I
more projects to this, either moving. Yeah, to Polkala, as you say, with Composable Ethereum, of course, a lot of people is looking to with something like EVMAs, EtherMand, a general. Yeah, so there's a lot of people looking to other ecosystems and the mix of all of the sense. I mean, we're still trading orders in a bear market, you know,
where we're going, or we're going up, down. We need to look for other opportunities. And that's the most obvious at least is typically in another ecosystem. I'm curious to ask though, before we talk about other ecosystems, why didn't you decide to deploy yet on your own chain? Just curious to hear.
What held you back because you've been active on many other chains as we talked about already? It was just strategic decision. We haven't, so we just recently a couple of weeks ago finished the last piece
of our satellite markets. So now it's a fully functioning system, the buybacks are working, we have incentives on the deck, so it's a working full complete product now, and we wanted to complete it first, you know, fix all the bugs, you know, make everything work smooth, and then deploy on our own chain. So we had some
We had an aggressive expansion phase sometime last year, then we focused a little bit more inwards, you know, more products, improvement of products, and that phase is finished now. So we have our complete product now, at least, you know, a milestone reached, and now we're going to go a little bit more
aggressive. And I think, you know, by the end of the quarter, we right now we're on five chains and I think by the end of the quarter we will be close to a dozen. You know, with Polkadot, with, yeah, with Composable, with Luna Classic, Umi, Dealy wants us to deploy there and we want to
as well, stargaze. So yeah, long list. Definitely man. And talk to us about the roadmap. What can people look forward to with White Whale? What's on the horizon for you guys? Sure. So let me first point out that in general,
I'm not a big fan of too long road maps because the space is moving so fast. So I think one of the most important qualities as a project but also as an individual is to be very flexible and constantly assess the situation and see what's the optimal path.
Because just because something looks great today doesn't mean it's great opportunity tomorrow. So it's very important to keep the head sharp, keep your mind sharp and re-evaluate the situations at every time. Nevertheless,
regarding the roadmap. So what's in store next? As I said, we finished the satellite market as a product. So we're still rolling this out to all the existing chains. Then we have a lot of new deployments in store in the next quarter or in the next months. Now, obviously, we have still
our own chain. So we want to focus in the coming months a lot on building the ecosystem. And I think we're very close to having a really, really strong, strong ecosystem with all the basic stuff you need. So, you know, probably in a month from now. So we already have two liquid-staking providers.
Next week we have our decks, incentives and all that jazz, then backbone laps, they're going to launch an NFT marketplace, and then you already got all the basic building blocks, and from then on we're going to keep building on top and make the ecosystem more attractive to capture more users and more value.
Of course, we're going to continue our open source MIV solutions. We're going to continue as a team validating different chains and securing them, participating in governance. And lastly, we're also working on this interchange liquidity thing that's really cherry on top of everything that we're building.
But it's still a long way out. But nevertheless, I think there are a lot of things worth looking forward to. Beautiful. The whole Shebang, it sounds like NFTs, like we're taking assets. I mean, you got a lot of things going on. That's for sure.
So what we'd like to sometimes do in these spaces is to, it's a dream a little bit and especially with someone like you who has such a deep technical knowledge and understanding of things and sort of imagine yourself 5, 10,
maybe 15 years from now sitting on your front porch or wherever you're comfortable sitting and just thinking back at what White Will has become after those 5, 10 or 15 years. What would fill your heart with pride? Like how would you, you know, how would, what
What would the white will look like basically when you sit there and think about wow that's exactly what we set out to build and I can't believe we executed on it. What would white will look like that? I think everybody in the team and you know the teams we're working with they're all very
They're not driven by profit motivation, so they're not motivated by pure profit motives, but more from a ideological perspective. I think everybody here wants to build a more fair and accessible future, especially for finance, but also in general for identity for data.
If we can do our part in this, I'll be very happy personally. I know it's a very vague answer, but yeah, I think that's the right answer. It makes sense. And how do you see Cosmos helping you achieve that? Because obviously we have Cosmos fanatics here
the Cosmos Club, we firmly believe in the ecosystem and the technology. How will that help you achieve that big dream? Cosmos has great technology. It helped us to build our own blockchain, which I never thought we'd do.
And it was actually not that hard. So maintaining a chain is a lot harder than building a chain. And you know, with IBC, that's also a fantastic piece of technology that allows us, you know, this cross-chain building. You know, without IBC, we couldn't do this. So I see customers as
and an able of sorts who helped us move towards our goals. I see. What was the hardest part building a chain? Was it attracting validators? I hear that a lot at least. Or was it something else? So the validator relations and getting on with
them. I don't think it was very complicated. It was actually simple in that sense, but it just was a lot of work. Because you have to do it. We have 50 validators now. And by the way, when I keep this head small, we don't want a lot of validators because they just, you know, every validator creates cell pressure on the token. That's just
something to keep in mind when you see these 150 validator sets with 10-million market cap chains. So validators wasn't complicated but just a lot of work. I think learning about the whole tech stack, I mean I think a lot of people here
at least from the development perspective, they have a rough grasp of how the pieces work together, but then actually stitching them together and actually doing it and executing this and coordinating what you're doing with 50 different teams across the world in different time zones.
That's quite a feat. Yes indeed. At least that's what I hear also, like the whole setup with validators and attracting validators. It's expensive, it's time consuming, it's complicated, it's a bitch basically.
This leads me to a question that I like to ask more and more during these spaces. That is the whole debate about deploying an app chain or deploying a consumer chain now with the Cosmos Hub enabling the Replicate Security or the chains to rent security from the Cosmos Hub.
So if you had to do it all over again, this is obviously fresh new stuff being able to deploy consumer chains. But if you could do it all over again, would you consider deploying a consumer chain rather than an app chain or yeah, would you change your choice basically? Well, we already confirmed
consider this back when we, before we launched the chain in the planning phase, we did consider this, but I wouldn't change our course. I think we launched the chain in February 15, I believe. And looking back for months now, I wouldn't change a lot there. Maybe in
and how I work there and how I do this and what I do to work a little bit more efficient and faster. But I think the position we're in is fantastic because we have our own sovereign blockchain with sovereign teams building on it with sovereign validators with our own token and that just gives us the most flexible
position you can potentially have. And that's a fantastic thing, as I said, you know, this super fast moving space, we want to be as flexible as possible. You deploy on markets that have an uptrend right now with our satellite markets, but still have our own chain where the community can do what
So I don't think we should or would change this and join the customer's hub as a consumer chain. Now, obviously there are a lot of benefits to this. So it's just in my mind, it's a tool that I'm going to use.
in the box. So before this you just have one thing which is build your own chain and now you have a second tool in your in your box and you can use it or not use it. There are benefits and drawbacks. So for example one of the benefits is you can't have your own validator set. That's that's quite a
problem because the validators of the cosmos hump they are they have their own token that atom and they will vote or they work you know with adamant in their best mind because that's where they have the most or most value
But in our chain they have a whale token. So we know those validators, they do what's best for our ecosystem. And also there is the rent seeking aspect. So it takes money to have your consumer
chain. True, true that. Speaking of consumer chains, I can see on the list of upcoming chains that you've listed at least you have neutron also. Is there a difference between connecting, hooking up to a consumer chain versus an app
change for you guys or is it the same thing? It's exactly the same technology and same setup. Can I repeat the question? I think I had a little time off here. The question is basically you have plans to connect to neutron as an upcoming chain for wide whale. Is there a difference
between connecting to another app chain, like secret network or StarGaze that you also have on the roadmap compared to connecting to a consumer chain like Neutron. It's great that you made the examples of secret and StarGaze because all these three, they're quite different.
New for some missionless chain you can just go ahead and deploy contracts there That's our most favorite chains because that's easy Stargaze is a permission chain so you need to go through governance to get your contracts and your app live and that's and there's politics involved. It's a lot of drama and
lot of work and when you want to maintain it, you know, updates, new features, new products, you know, the same process repeats again. And then there's secret which don't allow our contracts to be uploaded because this chain is permissionless but they have some, you know, secret
in there because of their privacy features so that you can't just vanilla copy your product and deploy it there. But back to your original question, is there a difference between, for example, Terra, which is a sovereign layer one or neutron? And from an app builder perspective, there isn't.
Awesome, man. I love talking to people like you. You have such fine-grained detail over you that you tend to learn a lot of the small but also when you implement this
at least I'm saying this quite big differences between the point to Stargate's, the point to Neutron like a devil's in the detail. That's the catchphrase I guess. All right, so incom, is there anything that we left out for this space? Is there anything you want to leave the Q&D with or say
So, there is a thing that the community can do for WhiteWale. How do we help you guys? How do you help us? Well, spread the word. I think that's the most important thing. Join our community or our communities. That's the beauty of it. We're so spread,
white spread that we have a lot of different touching points. So just take it out. We have people from Terra, Juno, Injective, the whole bunch. And I'm sure you'll find something in there. Obviously you can use our products or those of our partners, backbone labs, areas protocol
even raccoon with their games, use them, play with them, use their own apps, and don't forget to follow Cosmos Club and retweet the space with #RightTheWayl. This is the way. Thank you so much, Sincone, for coming on and looking
for to follow your continuous progress, we will make sure to share and get everybody involved in what you guys are doing. It's definitely something that we see helping the ecosystem. It's something that is important for the ecosystem and you
guys about getting enough attention if you ask us so keep doing what you're doing. It's awesome to see. Thank you very much Mark. It's been a great pleasure talking to you here today and thank you for everybody who joined the space. Likewise man. Take care, Sencom. Stay safe.