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Counterparty | The Ordinal Show
Recorded: Aug. 11, 2025 Duration: 2:31:01Space Recording
Short Summary
The Ordinals Show and Horizon Market are set to revolutionize the Bitcoin ecosystem, enhancing NFT trading and artist royalties while showcasing the growing acceptance of diverse crypto applications.
Full Transcription
Music Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to go ahead and get a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit. hey Trevor I think the music might not be working. Good morning, by the way, guys.
Happy Monday.
GM, GM.
Should I start singing instead of the music?
Jan, we would love to hear your singing voice.
No, you would not want to hear that
because I think you would probably not be able
to sleep afterwards.
Okay, Trevor's got the music.
Cool, cool. we'll get started Thank you. Thank you. Good morning, Bitcoiners!
That's right, you're here at the Ordinal's Show.
Welcome back to our regulars, hello to our new friends.
If this is your first time, the Ordinals Show is a live podcast hosted twice per week on X Spaces,
starting 10.30am ET Monday mornings and 6.30pm ET Wednesday nights,
going for multiple hours, covering various topics, all while building new cool shade on Bitcoin.
Ordinals are not just a new kind of MTN Bitcoin, but a massive movement of people
who care about growing Bitcoin's adoption
and bringing BTC to the masses.
More important, the protocol itself,
Ordinals is a cultural shift that's attracting new developers and users,
incredible artists, and accelerating innovation.
I'm Trevor.BTC, managing partner of the Bitcoin Frontier Fund
and co-founder of Pizza Ninjas.
I'm here with my co-host.
You've listened to the show 50 times,
and you still cannot say his name correctly.
Is it Yan, Jan, or Yan?
Anyway, he's the CSO and X-Riss, and my man with the plan and the king of Bitcoin, Sparta,
Leonidas, our in-house NFT history expert and co-founder of Orr.io, guys.
I am super excited to be here this morning, guys, with all of you, and I'm glad that you're
all here with me.
I pinned the tweet at the top, letting everyone know that we're live.
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Give it a like. Give it a retweet. Show us some love for the algorithms and welcome more people to space.
Also, smash that purple button in the bottom right-hand corner with your comments and questions.
Throw some GM and LFG posts in there.
We'll read your questions throughout the show.
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We post weekly recaps in the newsletter and RSV links for future shows, as well as a condensed version of the show on Apple and Spotify Podcasts
so you never miss what's happening on the leading edge of Bitcoin. And with that,
I'm going to turn to Leonidas to introduce today's show.
All right. Good morning, guys. So we've got a fun show planned for y'all. Adam,
welcome back. Always a pleasure to have you on here.
And yeah, guys, we can just get right into it. I think a lot going on. The market seems to be looking good again. It's that classic late Sunday night pump that happens with Bitcoin, which I
think is due to like treasury company stuff, but I'm not totally sure. And yeah, guys, we'll dive
right into this conversation here with Adam. So without further ado, I'm going to hand it off to Trevor to kick off our
conversation with Adam. Awesome. Adam, welcome back to the show. So for those people in the
audience who may not have heard of you before or have heard you on the show before, would you like
to just give a brief introduction to yourself, your background? Yeah. Kick it off. Sure. Yeah.
introduction to yourself, your background.
Yeah, kick it off.
Sure.
Yeah.
Thanks so much, guys, for having me on again.
It's always a pleasure.
Yeah, you know, I've been in the crypto space for a long time, really, really back in 2013,
got started and in particular was involved in the creation of Counterparty.
I designed the protocol and wrote the reference implementation with lead maintainer
and left the space for a while. I did some work in the enterprise blockchain space, the permissioned
blockchain space. And now a year and a half ago, I came back to public cryptocurrencies and public
protocols and working in Counterparty and in the Bitcoin space more generally.
And yeah, that's my history.
Okay, cool.
So yeah, before we go into what you're here to kind of talk about today, I want to queue
up a few Counterparty questions, many things I haven't asked you in some of the other interviews
that we've done.
Yeah, I'm curious, like, you know, Counterparty, of course, to the 2021 audience is known for rare Pepes.
I'm curious, why do you think that rare Pepes had more longevity than, say, other assets on Counterparty?
Because Counterparty was very early to have a DEX, to have, you know, fungible tokens of all the other kind of things.
Why do you think the NFTs stood the test of time?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think about that a lot. I think that one of the things that we
sort of got wrong in a way with Counterparty was we built all the functionality for trading
digital and managing and manipulating digital assets before there were any digital assets.
And the reason that NFTs have sort of been the center of so much of the ecosystem is
because they are these digitally native assets and they really enable a lot of the, they
sort of make useful a lot of the functionality that exists in the DeFi ecosystem.
And whether it's NFTs or also other things like stable coins or what have you, it's important to have these digitally native assets first, and then you can start to work
with them. And with Counterparty, there weren't, no one was creating any digitally native assets
at the time. And so we built all the functionality. And then it was only once people found the good
memes and the art and started putting it on chain that the ecosystem exploded.
And so when you think about an NFT like a rare peppy, what is it, do you think, that
holds its value over time?
I mean, it's a tricky question, right?
You know, one can ask the same question about art in general, right?
Where does the value come from?
Some of it is provenance.
Some of it is provenance, some of it is
memes and social value, some of it is the art itself, some of it is the notion of ownership,
some of it is someone thinks they're going to trade it later, they're going to sell it later,
and it's worth it for that reason. I think that it's a natural evolution of the art market,
It's a natural evolution of the art market and also other things like, you know, the trading cards or baseball cards or gaming, you know, spaces where you have these assets of different kinds.
a new asset with art, with metadata, with history, with all of this sort of stuff built in
is really powerful. And I think it explains why it's been such a big space for so long.
So do you think that NFTs have a kind of fundamental value in terms of the art then
that maybe not all fungible tokens have? Or how do you think about it?
I think it depends on the particular thing
i think in some cases the art really does matter right um you know and and some some cases the
artist matters more in some cases you know with with a lot of meme coins you don't even need the
art you just need the name right you just need the idea that you hold this token um nfts you know
the name of course is, is problematic, right?
Um, it's been, you know, a lot, a lot of them are quite fungible for instance.
Um, but it's, uh, a lot of it's around the art, right?
Um, the art matters, the, the symbolism matters, um, the, the artistry itself matters.
Very cool.
And so, you know, having sort of, uh early pioneer in like Web3 before even the term Web3 existed and kind of being interested in developing new use cases over the years, what use cases do you think have people speculated on that maybe don't make sense for this technology versus what use cases do you think are really going to take off in the next, you know, five, 10 years?
Like the main purpose of this technology, what it's good at?
Yeah, I think that, I mean, maybe I think the biggest miss that people have had in,
you know, prognosticating what was going to, you know, what blockchains were going to be useful for was around tokenizing real-world
assets, selling things like property or trading oil or whatever the idea was. That hasn't been
very effective or very successful, generally. What's been much more successful is on one hand,
digitally native assets, on the other hand, stable coins, right? These sort of on-chain
representations of these other abstract ethereal assets. That's been where the value has been.
It's been less, you know, I want to, I don't know, I want 100 random strangers on the internet to own a portion of my Lamborghini or something like that, right?
Or I want to have fractional ownership of my house.
That's been less compelling.
And I'm not really sure why.
I think that the digital, you know, being digitally native really matters a lot.
Having, for the new platform, having a new asset matches.
And when you try and shoehorn the old asset into the new paradigm, it doesn't work very well.
That makes a lot of sense.
And of course, the low-hanging fruit is usually what takes off first. I'm curious, do you have any thoughts on why pictures, specifically in terms of art, digital art, pictures have taken off, but maybe
music hasn't taken off as much, or movies or other types of digital media specifically?
Yeah, I think that goes deep, right? People collect art a lot more than they collect music in general,
right? They might have a record collection, but a record collection is less about possession,
and it's more about the accumulation of something that you otherwise wouldn't have access to. And
people don't really accumulate record collections these days in the same way that they used to,
because you can all get it on Spotify or Apple Music. Art has some kind of natural, you know, whatever impetus to be collected.
It doesn't take very long to consume.
And it can take up really some important space on your wall,
on your profile pic, in your feed.
And I think it works very well with the little screens
that we carry around in our pockets all day.
Do you think there's still hope for like other forms of digital media?
And kind of like how do you think about it?
Like going forward, do you think people are going to want to collect music
and maybe people haven't found the right format yet?
Or, you know, with music, for example,
it's kind of hard to make generative music.
You can make a generative PFP project in six months
and it can be top-notch,
but you can maybe only make two or three good songs
in six months, you know what I mean?
Yeah, that's a big part of it.
I think that for music to be,
I think one of the pieces to that is the way that the music is copied and shared versus the art is copied and shared.
It's less a thing you want to have possession of, right?
And you want to sort of claim ownership, right? It does feel weird to sort of say, I'm claiming ownership of this song.
Whereas claiming ownership of a piece of art feels much more natural.
I think there's a deep thing about the ethereal, abstract, and non-physical nature of music.
What do you think about data preservation, for example?
One of the cool things about Ordinals is that people are putting stuff on chain that not everything is intended to be traded.
But some things are just for digital preservation.
I think that's great. I think it's an underdeveloped use case.
I think that blockchains are in many ways really useful for data preservation.
I think it's a very interesting thing that, you know, there's this, you know, with Bitcoin, there's this terabyte of data that, you know, tens of thousands of computers in the Internet all have and more or less have to have to, you know, with some asterisks there.
And that, you know, is very unlikely to go away.
I think and, you know, the ephemerality of data in the 21st century is a problem.
It's a challenge, right?
The fact that data rots,
and different kinds of data storage media rot. And the immutability and the permanence
of Bitcoin and blockchains is an interesting contrast to that in its architecture. And what are some counterparty experiments or applications
that people may not know about that have been tried?
Maybe some that worked really well, maybe some that didn't work well.
People have .xcp names, right?
So there's counterparty namespace.
I'm curious what you think about Web3 identity.
Obviously, ENS is quite successful, but I think maybe in the 21-21 cycle, people expected it to be like, you know, your academic, you know, CV is going to be your Web3 identity kind of thing.
But that didn't really pan out in terms of being like compelling.
Like, you know, I saw like, you know,
so many people try to make like a web three LinkedIn. Right.
And that didn't really take off. So curious what you think on that.
Yeah. A lot of, I mean, a lot of the,
a lot of the blockchain space really starting with the Ethereum project was,
was built around having, you know,
big tech companies and social media and whatever in its crosshairs,
trying to build a digital version of all of that.
A lot of the stuff that we built at the Counterparty in the early days
ended up being very important as a use case in DeFi.
Counterparty was the first with prediction markets, with a decentralized exchange,
with a lot of proto namespacing, right?
And these permanent fixed addresses, though Namecoin did that first.
Gaming, trustless gaming with the rock, paper, scissors.
Counterparty had too many features and not enough development.
And so it was a proof of concept for a lot of those things.
In a lot of those ways, it sort of showed that it was possible,
but people didn't, myself included, didn't build full-featured,
user-friendly applications on top of those protocols to really popularize them.
And eventually, all that stuff became extremely popular. Polymarket today
is a big success, I would say. And the fundamental technology was available, I think it was
January, but it was definitely very early 2014. And that's an interesting thing. Counterparty was
very early in a lot of those things. It was very early in a lot of those things.
It was too early in a lot of those things.
And it wasn't actively competitive with other projects that had tens of millions of dollars in funding and much more active development in communities.
Yeah, that's so true.
I mean, it's easy to build a feature.
It's really hard to get people to use a feature, right? So like, and even like, once you become, a lot of people in the space probably notice this, because we have a lot of early adopters in the audience, but like, you may use a product when it's like pretty early, like, series A, or, you know, even earlier, if you're, if you're really on the leading edge of things.
And you'll notice that once they raise a Series B or whatever,
the product doesn't change that much
because you don't see what the team is actually doing,
which a lot of it is maintenance
and then removing friction 1% at a time.
Once a startup usually gets Series B,
there's millions and millions of dollars
spent on removing friction from the UX.
Yeah.
Yeah, very much.
Yeah, Counterparty didn't ever have that phase, right?
It sort of existed and was early, and then it was high friction for a very long time.
um now i mean that's really a lot of what i'm working on today um and um and with that spendable
Now, I mean, that's really a lot of what I'm working on today.
labs and uh counterparty development has really been over the past couple years focused very much
on friction infrastructure usability getting everything to work in such a way that people
can start to use a lot of the features that have been around for uh over a decade yeah and so i
want to jump into that second but a couple more i want to sneak in
here um was so when you started building on counterparty was satoshi still around at that
time like kind of what was your entry point into into bitcoin and kind of like uh experience or
or like satoshi like he a lot of people i mean what do you think you would think of the laser on Maxis today that we see, like Luke Dash Jr.?
Oh, I mean, yeah, I think, I don't think Satoshi was active on Bitcoin Talk when I started really being active in 2013.
I think he'd left at that point.
I don't really, I don't remember interacting with him.
I do remember interacting with a lot of the core developers, Jeff Garz garzik and greg maxwell and and all of those
that that crowd um i think that uh i mean i think luke jr is um uh a special case um i think i think
that he is a genuinely crazy and disturbative individual um uh despite his his his competence
as an engineer um and i think that he he sort of you know that he should be treated as a case unto himself.
I have a lot of sympathy with the Lazer-Od Maxis in general.
I think that what they are responding to is a very real problem
and a very real threat.
I think that when people build new blockchains and altcoins,
they are in an important sense diluting the value of the ecosystem. There's a synergistic effect that you get when you build
on the same blockchain, when you stick with Bitcoin. Every time you build a new coin,
you are issuing those synergistic opportunities,
you are diluting the value,
you're creating a competitor instead of building,
yeah, something much more collaborative
and consistent and cohesive, which is ideal.
And that's really, I mean,
that goes back to Counterparty, right?
That's why we built on top of Bitcoin, right?
Why we integrate Bitcoin into as much as possible
within Counterparty was to avoid building just another alt chain.
And so the Maxis have that reaction and it's understandable. are so against building anything, like using Bitcoin for something other than like payments
and, you know, but using Bitcoin as a store of value as digital gold, they're missing
something very important.
And I think that, I understand that motivation too.
I think that they, I mean, I think a lot of the fundamental motivation is that
they're worried that if Bitcoin becomes worse as a method of payment, then it will be less
successful overall.
And so they see it as they see.
I think I think that the way I understand, like, you know, whatever steel manning the
argument there, that there is a competition between Bitcoin as payment system and Bitcoin as blockchain platform. And when people start using the Bitcoin blockchain for
stuff other than pure payments, it increases fees and increases competition and so on and so forth
within the chain. And then payments get more expensive. No one uses payments. Bitcoin becomes
useless and the value doesn't go up and they're out of the job or whatever.
It's sort of a little bit of a, you know, nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded problem.
The important thing, I think, is that you're using Bitcoin. The important thing is that you
are building in the same ecosystem, that you're paying Bitcoin fees, that you are synergistic, and not that you sort of, I guess, voluntarily or
just sort of like ethically only use Bitcoin according to what some small group of people
think is a valid use case, which is just payments, I think that that is fundamentally counter to the
whole idea of Bitcoin as a permissionless ecosystem. And I think that it is possible to abuse
the blockchain. You can attack it. You can use it in a way that is actively destructive and creates very little value.
But if you're paying fees and you're creating prunable outputs, then you're good for Bitcoin and you're not bad for it.
You're not really creating any problem. Moreover, that seeing Bitcoin as first and foremost as a payment system is missing the fact that it can only, you know, it's somehow like turning, you know, whatever, like turning a blind eye to the fact that Bitcoin supports six transactions per second, more or less.
And it's never going to be the system that people use for paying for cups of coffee.
use for paying for cups of coffee. What Bitcoin is is a settlement system. It's digital gold,
What Bitcoin is, is a settlement system.
and just as people don't buy coffee with gold, they buy coffee with Starbucks points or dollars
or what have you. It's fine, right? It doesn't reduce the value of the dollar if you're not
using Bitcoin or reduce the value of gold if you're
not using gold for paying for your coffee. Bitcoin's a trustless system, right? It's
one where I can make an arbitrarily large payment to anyone in the world and have it
settle in minutes. That's its value. Not that it's better than Venmo or Visa. There might
be cases where you don't want to use Venmo or Visa because you don't trust Venmo and Visa.
But almost all payments are going to be not that, right?
Are going to be perfectly fine to actually be transacted in dollars or in Venmo.
And that's totally fine.
So I don't see it as competitive there.
And I do think it's good for the ecosystem overall.
And honestly, I think Satoshi is, you know,
he was not sure about any of this stuff.
A lot of his original ideas for what Bitcoin was for
and what the Bitcoin blockchain was going to look like
were, you know, changed over time, were subtle.
I don't think he was particularly zealous about any of this.
I don't think he was a zealous person when it came to dictating what was a good use case
and how all of this stuff should be done with what he invented.
And I think some of the biggest evidence for that is that he
disappeared. He didn't want to sort of be this authoritarian ruler saying, this is how you're
supposed to use my invention. He released it into the wild for a reason. And it's to let it evolve
and do its thing. And I think that he probably would support all of that innovation as he voiced in
public comments. I love that you said that Bitcoin is a settlement layer, is a fundamental use case.
And I think that actually is a very strong lens to kind of explain it and look at it through.
I was going to ask you, what do you see as the relationship, I guess, between BTC, the asset and ordinals, runes, et cetera, and counterparty assets as well. And you
could argue that, of course, that these use cases generate fees, which makes Bitcoin a stronger
settlement layer because there's a higher security budget. I'm curious if there's other
aspects of it and how you think about that relationship between ordinals and BTC, because a lot of things that we argue for the merits of this.
And, you know, it may not it may not be measurable in terms of just the market cap of ordinals, which is a couple billion.
But now we have, you know, Bitcoin in the two trillion range, you know, like people like ordinals and runes bring more users, they bring more use cases,
they give people stuff to use, BTC the asset for in a digital circular economy.
I personally believe that Bitcoin could succeed without these as a store of value,
but I just think maybe the probability of it succeeding is much, much higher
as a store of value in payments if we have these use cases. Curious what your thesis is. I fully agree. No, I mean, ordinals are often a very
large chunk of transactions on Bitcoin. That's a good thing, right? It pays fees, it keeps the
network active, it encourages tooling development. And I mean, Bitcoin fees are often sub one sat per V byte, right? It's fine.
And if there's competition, then the higher value transaction is going to win, right? And that's
exactly how it should go. It's never going to be the case that Bitcoin fees are so high that it
will not be economical to use it as a settlement layer by definition.
It'll just settle in larger amounts, right?
That's totally fine.
And yeah, I think it's good for the ecosystem as a whole.
I think that in the long run, I think Bitcoin really has the potential to serve this most important role,
which hasn't really been realized yet, which is Bitcoin as a store of value.
Sorry, I misspoke. As a unit of account. It already is a store of value and already is
a settlement system. It hasn't really been used as a unit of account much yet. It's increasing,
right? But people still price a lot of stuff in fiat, more in stablecoins, which are priced in fiat.
And I think that as Bitcoin becomes a larger chunk of the global economy and as fiat currencies
ebb and flow in their importance and stability, Bitcoin will become more and more
Bitcoin will become more and more a currency against which people can price things.
And I think its volatility is decreasing over time, certainly compared to long ago.
And I think that there's a lot of potential for more or less the meta protocols like ordinals and runes and stuff and counterparty to use
Bitcoin as a unit of account to price things in Bitcoin.
And that's very powerful.
And I think that the other really important thing is that, again, the synergy, right?
It's sort of, you know, being able to use the PSPTs, partially signed Bitcoin transactions, to trade these assets, it really does
emphasize the synergy with the underlying chain that these protocols have in a way that
side chains and stuff don't support, right? By building directly on top of Bitcoin,
you get a deeper integration with Bitcoin that you otherwise would not have.
And you can't have if you're an alt chain or a side chain or a roll up or what have you.
And that's really important.
So using the infrastructure for what it's supposed to be used for,
paying Bitcoin fees for the data that you use,
supporting transacting with the UTXO model,
all of these things together are very, very important and good for the ecosystem as a whole. And it creates a natural level of compatibility across
all of those and with Bitcoin itself. Yeah, super well said. So yeah, so Adam,
let's jump into kind of what you're working on now. So yeah, tell us about kind of the journey back into Bitcoin. You know, you built Counterparty, you kind of took a hiatus and worked on
in the same space, actually, but more in the private sector than as a kind of open source
developer. Yeah, what brought you back and what are you working on now?
Yeah, right now, I mean, over the past, I came back to Counterparty about a year and a half ago.
I've done a bunch of things in the interim.
Working in the permission blockchain space was fascinating.
I think blockchains as an architecture are very, very useful in the case where you sort of have a permission network where you do know the identities of every member of the network and you don't need the same kind of civil resistance.
You don't need the cryptocurrency to encourage honest behavior
among anonymous participants.
So I thought that was very, very interesting,
and we built a lot of very cool stuff.
I was working in back office infrastructure
for traditional financial technology,
and we built a lot of stuff.
And then after that, it's a lot of stuff and and it's you know then after that is a question of adoption and and sales and um i think that what happened is um
you know the cryptocurrency space kept on growing um and kept on becoming more and more uh palatable
to institutions um so that know, instead of simply replacing
or upgrading the back office infrastructure,
people really were more interested in
just using the currencies themselves, right?
Using the blockchain, the public blockchain
cryptocurrency platforms themselves.
And I'm fine with that.
It's sort of not what I would expect
from first principles,
but that's often how financial markets evolve, right?
Like with building layers and layers and layers
on top of other layers,
rather than ripping out the underlying foundation
and upgrading and making things nice and clean and easy.
And that was, it's the front office
that drives a lot of innovation.
It's people trying to make more profits, get more products, get out there,
rather than saying, hey, listen, how do we make this process more efficient
and faster and more reasonable?
And that sort of incentive won out.
And, I mean, a lot of other reasons, right?
Like, I mean, I think counterparty has really been in need
of some significant upgrades.
I mean, you know, a year and a half ago,
it was practically impossible to run a counterparty node.
There were, you know, subtle consensus breaks everywhere.
Just like there were a lot of major issues
and it was sort was not well maintained.
At some point after eight years,
there were no tests for the entire codebase that were running.
We did a lot of cleanup and a lot of fixing to bring back
the counterparty codebase and make it work again
um and while staying very much true to its like all of its original goals or there was no like
major major functionality added um it was really just sort of fixing it up and cleaning it up
because what this what distinguishes counterparty from other projects is its history um is the assets
that are on top of it that were issued over the years
and the community around it.
And we've done that.
And we've had a lot of success with that.
Right now, it's just like a totally workable code base
and a protocol that has been upgraded significantly,
much more practical to work with.
But there's a limit to all the things that are going to
happen in terms of changing Counterparty for all the reasons I expressed. My focus now
over the past number of months has been on infrastructure and tooling, making it so that
all of the awesome things that are on Counterparty, whether it be assets or features, are exposed
to users in ways that people can use.
And frankly, taking a lot of inspiration from all of the innovation and efforts that have existed in the broader cryptocurrency ecosystem
that have been developed across the whole ecosystem, which has been, you know, I don't know, surging forward as Bitcoin and counterparty have been very static.
forward as bitcoin and counterparty have been very static and um so uh i mean just a week ago uh we
um my company unspendable labs announced a total redesign and revamping of horizon market which is
a marketplace for nfts um where you can trade uh those nfts with bitcoin with each other um
those NFTs with Bitcoin and with each other today.
And it's designed to be easy to use.
And it's designed to make it possible for all of those tens and tens of thousands of
holders of counterparty assets like Rare Pepe's to trade and to actually get liquidity for
their assets and to really revive the market, which has been dormant for a long time, largely because of
the infrastructure issues. The fact is that Counterparty, despite being Web3 before there
was Web3 and having the first X, Y, and Z, has never had a good modern platform for trading the
assets on top of it. The DEX that I built in end of 2013, early 2014,
is clunky and hard to use.
And some of those problems were ameliorated with dispensers,
which reduce the barriers to entry significantly.
But they have their own limitations.
And dispensers are supported on Horizon Market as well.
There hasn't been a concerted effort over the years
to sort of say, how can we
make it so that we can have a vibrant market for these assets? How can we make it easy for people
to use this protocol and these features and get access to these assets and to get liquidity for
these assets? And now that's possible. Now it exists. The additional version of rise in market
was focused on sort on technical feasibility,
getting atomic swaps working,
because they can be a little clunky sometimes themselves.
We've really spent a lot of effort over the months with this platform,
making it possible to list your asset for sale in 30 seconds,
to connect to multiple wallets,
to pay all the fees, et cetera, et cetera, all in a single transaction.
And that's a really powerful thing. Um, and we're very excited about that.
Wow. This is super cool, man. Like congrats on all the hard work. So,
so yeah, explain to me, like what, how did you achieve this? Like, what did you actually change, I guess, in the counterparty, you know, protocol? And, you know, did you,
this require sort of like a fork of any kind? Like, is there some like, sort of like block
number activation? Like, tell us like some of the changes that you made under the hood
to get this like massive improvement in UX?
Yeah, I mean, there's sort of two different things.
The first step was fixing counterparties so that it was possible to use it.
And adding, I mean, really a couple, maybe two important features to counterparty over the past year and a half.
The first was atomic swaps, which are a way of trustlessly trading counterparty assets-
and counterparty assets for Bitcoin that avoid the pitfalls, the rugging, etc.,-
the races that exist with dispensers.
And the second thing was supporting a protocol-native fair minting.
The ability for an artist to sort of create an asset that is, or to
initiate the creation of an asset that is then created by people minting it themselves
independently in a decentralized and fair fashion.
That was done, and we released those features in October of last year, and those were a
couple of different, you know, we had a couple of iterations on that, you know, tweaks to
this, added a couple of features there, and there are a couple of different, we had a couple of iterations on that, tweaks to this, added a couple of features there.
There are a couple of websites that support those features.
It's not just Horizon,
but Horizon has been our own products,
the unspendable labs product to take
our vision for how to make that usable.
Once the features were released to make the counterparty protocol
and be able to do the things that it needs to be able to do
to work in 2025 and beyond,
then it's a question of product vision.
How do we build something that is easy to use for the end user?
How do we get that last mile of, okay, it works,
but how do we make it work in a wallet,
in a web browser, on mobile?
How do we make the listing process super easy and friendly?
How do we handle fee payments?
How do we handle all of the details of that product stuff?
And that's been the focus, you know,
independent of the protocol development
for the past few months.
And that has been realized with the release last Monday.
That's really cool.
So it's horizon.market.
Is that the domain name?
Yep.
Okay, so basically we can go there today.
What wallet do we use to connect?
And is this like, can I buy rare Pepe's there?
Can I buy all the different counterparty assets?
You know, what should people go there to check out?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you can go there today.
You can use Horizon Wallet, which is free and open source as a browser extension.
You can use Xverse.
You can use Leather.
You can use OKEx.
And that all works today.
You can buy Repepes.
You can buy and trade any counterparty asset
and it should all work easily.
The focus is on making it accessible
so that people aren't limited
in their ability to use counterparty
by the UI, right?
By the products that are built on top of it.
And I see there's like a minting tab.
So how do you make a counterparty in a T today in 2025?
Yeah, you can click on mint.
You can upload your image
and you can set all the different parameters
that you want to create, right?
You can do all that.
It is designed to be easy.
You can upload music, actually.
You can, yeah, you can sell the metadata.
It doesn't have support for every counterparty feature
because there are a lot of counterparty features,
too many, potentially.
But it's focused on what we think are the highest value cases,
and those are expanding over time.
And the wallet also is about to get a new upgrade
in a week or two, which will implement the redesign.
But it works today.
Okay, cool.
And Leo, by the way, I don't know if I can see hands here.
So Leo, feel free to cut me off if people have got their hands raised.
I think my ex is a little bugged.
And so, Adam, so are the NFTs on Counterparty, like originally they are, the images are sort of off-chain.
With the changes that you've made, are they still, you know, stored on IPFS or off-chain?
Or like kind of what's the plan there and kind of what do you think about storing that data on-chain going forward?
Yeah, another major feature that was out as a Counterparty recently, that activated a little while ago, was support for taproot encoding.
So you can actually store large amounts of data on counterparty in a cost-effective manner.
That's a big thing.
That said, right now, we are encouraging IPFS storage, and that will evolve over time.
That's cool.
So how did you get like Xverse to work and, you know,
leather to work on the site?
Did you and Jan have a leg day gym session that I didn't know about?
No, Xverse is a joy to work with.
The integration was very straightforward.
You know, there are standard APIs for this kind of stuff,
and, you know, we wanted to sort of
come out the gate with supporting different wallets. That's really cool. So I mean, I know
Leather supports stamps, but how did you get counterparty assets? If I mint something on
horizon.market with Xverse, does it show up in my Xverse wallet?
Like, how does that work?
You'll see it in the market, right? And you'll see, like, if it's attached to a UTXO, then you'll see it there.
And so counterparty assets, and that's these are kind of pre-ordinal theory.
So they didn't use a, like like utxo model was it it's
an account was an account based model like it's been account based yeah um and one thing that
what we sort of built around and released in october last year to enable the atomic swaps was
building a hybrid system where you can keep the account-based system,
but you could also fully support UTXO transfers and ownership of these counterparty assets.
The market is designed to not bother users with the details of that.
It happens automatically, the attaching to a UTXO and the detaching, so you don't really have to worry about it.
But the level of integration with Bitcoin is even higher than it ever was before.
And that's what allows for the atomic swaps and the PSP trading.
That's pretty cool. I haven't heard of anyone doing that before.
So curious, like,
what are some of the advantages? I guess, could you break down maybe for the audience, like,
account-based versus UTXO-based and maybe some pros and cons of each? And then, like,
how this actually works to do, like, a hybrid system? Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It was
originally the idea of a community member, Senor Herpenstein.
And the advantage of an account model is that you have a lot more flexibility.
You can do things like have dividends.
You can have fancier fair mints.
You can distribute fractional quantities of the assets without creating a million UTXOs, right?
The way that you often have to in other ecosystems.
The advantage of the UTXO system is that you have that deeper integration with Bitcoin,
and you can do things like atomic swaps.
So the ability to do whatever you want in account-based land,
and then you want to make an atomic swap, attach, swap, and then detach,
all happens automatically in a single operation.
Then you get the full compatibility with Bitcoin
and even theoretically with other, you know,
meta protocols like ordinals,
which we will add support for in the future.
And then you're back in counterparty land
and all the features that counterparty has
that other protocols don't.
And so are you able to make something like atomic swaps
between like counterparty assets?
Could you do rare Pepe's and pizza ninjas or something like that?
Could you do, you know, Ornals assets?
You could, we haven't added support in the market for that yet,
but that is absolutely on the roadmap.
Yeah, that is super cool. And yeah, it's interesting to have this hybrid model.
I'm curious, do you have any thoughts on kind of like,
I know people say at least that UTXO model
is much more scalable than an account-based model.
There's tricks to an account-based model.
Do you think that,
what do you think some of the issues with Ethereum are?
Is the account-based model something that was tricky for them
or is it more just like the EVM itself being kind of too flexible that allowed all these attack vectors?
I think it was more of the EVM.
I think that's, I mean, there's some limiting cases where you can do sort of, where you can have the protocol be faster and have fewer what are called race conditions in software with the UTXO model.
Those are all solvable using different techniques, effectively using what are called nonces in the code to make sure that you don't have conflicts.
The account-based model is, I think, generally more flexible and more powerful and scales fine outside of some edge cases.
And now Counterparty supports that too, if you want.
That's super cool, Adam. Yeah. Congrats. This is exciting.
Like I think making Counterparty a lot easier to use and having Horizon
Market to like browse everything and play with it is super exciting.
Leo, I, again, I can't see if people are
hand-raised. It actually shows Adam
as a listener, not as a speaker.
I'm also not seeing hands raised.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's a bug with X right now, guys,
where you can't see hands very well.
So I don't think they fixed it yet.
It's been like this for two weeks.
No, I mean, no one was raising their hand.
It's just the four of us on stage right now um yeah i mean look this is fascinating i i got to try the horizon
wallet by the way really liked that experience adam so great work i think it was a good good
improvement for the ecosystem and then obviously this piece of infrastructure for trading is awesome
um am i correct in saying that so you mentioned that counterparty is the account model
and UTXO model. It can work with Xverse because I know with the account model, like you're not
accidentally spending UTXOs that are, you know, tied to counterparty assets. That's why you can
just plug in with Xverse without Xverse being aware and protecting counterparty because you're not going to accidentally sign a transaction that moves counterparty assets.
But once you've added the UTXO aspect now, is that now an issue with using X-First?
Yeah, I mean, if you're with a protocol, sorry, a wallet like X-First that doesn't support counterparty, then there is theoretically a risk of spending your assets unintentionally. We've tried to do the wallet
addresses and the wallet address derivation in such a way that you don't have to worry about it
too much. And that's a large reason why we attach and detach automatically in the market so that we don't have UTXO assets that are just sort of sitting around that could be accidentally spent.
The Horizon wallet has first class support for counterparty.
You can see your counterparty assets in it in any case.
And that's why we built it, right?
And that's why we built it, right?
It's because you sort of need that support in the wallet.
But if you have your assets or if you have your Bitcoin or whatever it is in Xverse and you want to buy stuff, then you can do that too.
Very cool.
Very cool.
And so I'm just on Horizon Markets right now.
I'm seeing like you've got the Create tab, you've got the Mint tab, you've got the Trade tab, and you've got the Explore tab.
You've got the create tab, you've got the mint tab, you've got the trade tab, and you've got the explore tab.
So trade, is there any potential of doing, like, people are obsessed with this idea of the Uniswap AMM style user experience.
Have you thought about that at all?
Is there any path for that for counterparty runes has moved to that model?
I know BRC 2.0 is trying to push for that model.
Alkanes is pushing for that model.
Are you thinking about that sort of experience
as an end experience potentially?
Yeah, I've definitely thought about it.
There are a couple of proposals
out in the counterparty GitHub repo to talk about it.
One, which is pretty backwards compatible.
One, which requires a bit more of a lift.
It's largely up to the community
as to whether they want those additional features.
There hasn't been a lot of clamoring,
but I think it's a great model,
and I think it's complementary
to every other sort of trading system.
So I'm generally in favor of these kinds of features.
Okay, very cool.
And then I'm on this minting tab here.
Is this very similar to like the BRC20
and runes that like kind of open minting situation?
Is that what this basically is?
Okay.
It's very similar.
It allows for more flexibility, more power, right?
You can have royalties that are paid in XCP.
You can have limitations on how much per transaction, etc.
You can have a lot of features.
If you go to the Mint tab, you can see when you create a Mint,
you can do a lot of flexible stuff.
Actually, I'll mention that Horizon Market now has a very important
first for the counterparty ecosystem, which is royalties on trades.
When an artist can actually, you know, sort of say, hey,
listen, as long as you're trading your asset on Horizon,
the royalty will go to the royalty that the artist sets will
go to the artist. And that's very, very, very important and
new, right? Artists have been asking for this for a long time
within the within the Bitcoin ecosystem generally and
counterparty supports that kind of thing now
with RISE Market.
So I encourage artists to get royalties
for trades of their work.
And minting also has a lot of these features.
Okay, very cool, very cool.
And then I am on the CoinMarketCap for XCP, the counterparty native asset right now.
And man, it's not looking good.
What do we got to do to get this to a billion dollars?
What do we got to do?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's, I mean, a lot of it is that people have for a very long time not known
about counterparty.
They sort of used counterparty.
They traded counterparty assets without knowing that it was on top of counterparty. They sort of used counterparty if they traded counterparty assets without knowing that it was on top of counterparty. They either used a particular wallet or particular
block explorer, or they just knew that they were trading rare pepes or stamps, and they weren't
thinking about the protocol. The protocol was neglected, right? No one was talking or thinking or developing the protocol.
And that, I think, should shift. It's also, you know, there's a cultural conflict there, right?
A lot of members of the community, of the counterparty community, are sort of less interested in changing and evolving the protocol, in figuring out how to, you know, how to sort of make XCP as a currency
work better for counterparty in 2025.
There's a lot of baggage there and strong opinions
about, for instance, the fee system.
And I think, honestly, I think it's going to change.
I think that the XCP will probably do well
when we have a more active marketplace for counterparty assets. I think people will XDP will probably do well when we have a more active marketplace for
counterparty assets. I think people will naturally migrate in that way. But there's also, you know,
sort of historical baggage and community, you know, consensus that needs to be, you know,
addressed before XDP really, you know, I think works better for the ecosystem. For instance, right now, fees in XEP for counterparty actions are fixed at a static value.
That's weird.
It creates a barrier to entry into the ecosystem, and it doesn't scale with usage,
and it doesn't scale with usage,
and so it doesn't work very well as a gas token.
and so it doesn't work very well as a gas token.
And with Horizon Market, we've worked to paper over that
to reduce all of those barriers to entry.
With atomic swaps, you don't need XCP in order to buy stuff.
But to do other counterparty features, of course you do.
To use other counterparty features, of course you do.
So it's a question of, again, what the community wants,
how they're going to view things like XCP and the fees.
And then also just more, most importantly, how much adoption Counterparty gets at, like, itself, right, as opposed to through one particular asset on top of it.
on top of it right and do you imagine you know like counterparty is the most interest has been
in this sort of like collection model where it's like it's interesting it's like a it's like a
fungible token right but it's uh you know a bunch of pieces of art with, there's a primitive on Ethereum, I'm spacing on what it's called.
But basically, you've got a bunch of pieces of art, and then each one can be fractionalized
into, you can own little pieces of it, rather than people just like, you know, sending meme
coins into the mempool, right? Are people doing meme coins? Are you seeing meme coin activity,
just normal fungible token activity
or is it is it still primarily focused around the digital art use case it's mostly been the art so
far um i think um that's been the main thing um the other major thing about account about xdp is
that it's still not traded anywhere um there's like the market cap is totally fake because no
there's zero liquidity um and uh the reason there's zero liquidity is partly because the protocol has been broken for so long.
And with the most recent upgrade, version 11, of the counterparty protocol, which adds address support or fixes bugs in the old address support,
it is now possible to add support for XDP to
be centralized exchanges in a way that it hasn't been for years and years.
Because the Bitcoin ecosystem moved on and counterparty was stuck in the past.
Now with this additional address support,
it's possible to get that centralized exchange support and hopefully bring liquidity,
which should I think make it possible to accumulate and use XDP for its purpose.
Yeah, that's very interesting. Obviously, you know, I'm very familiar with a lot of this because
of runes. And yeah, I mean, people need to be able to click buy on the asset. And like,
we've ultimately come to the realization that, like, you have to have this sort of like infrastructure underpinning the fungible
standard and what that ultimately looks like is like our company's building bridges to l2s our
company's building bridges to other l1s like solana our centralized exchanges building the
deposit and withdrawal infrastructure to support it um And then obviously, I think you're focused on L1.
I'm not saying it's your job to go build everything, right?
Sure.
But I think ultimately for a healthy situation,
you want bridging to other chains,
and you do probably want some centralized exchanges to come in and say,
hey, we're going to support the counterparty ecosystem.
We're going to list a few counterparty tokens.
I don't know who that would be.
There's a bunch of exchanges competing with each other.
You probably don't start with the tier one exchange.
There's a bunch of tier two and tier three exchanges.
There has to be some place you can go to to easily buy XCP and these tokens, though.
And I'm very curious to see who's going to step up and make that happen, because I think we're in agreement
that that would be a pretty positive,
yeah, great thing.
100%.
I'm very, very much in favor of that.
Again, a lot of the work over the past year and a half
on Counterparty has been making it possible
to do that kind of integration
for centralized exchanges,
for other entities that want to integrate with counterparty,
now it is possible.
Again, very recently to really use the counterparty node
the way that it's supposed to be used to the indexer,
and to be able to integrate with
the counterparty infrastructure and ecosystem.
Yeah, it's super exciting. to be able to integrate with the counterparty infrastructure and ecosystem.
Yeah, it's super exciting.
This is, yeah, this is like an interesting, you know, counterparties have got a long,
long history, guys.
This is not a just new thing, right? I think like counterparties have been around for over 10 years, 11, 12 years, right?
It's like almost as old as Bitcoin.
And yeah, this is a, you know, this is a new chapter in the history
of Counterparty. Adam coming back, you know, basically doing what everybody kind of knew,
I think most people knew kind of needed to happen to really revitalize Counterparty.
I think the most exciting thing is that there is just a bunch of like great digital art,
you know, inscribed in the Counterparty over the years. A lot of it actually predates the Ethereum NFTs.
It's like very, very ancient, pretty legendary stuff.
And, you know, I think the issue is not that those assets aren't amazing or that, you know,
people want to buy those assets.
It's that it's been hard to buy and safely store those assets.
And I mean, this is the answer.
And it's like, yeah, we got to actually
get people using Horizon Market and, you know, people when you're listing your, you know, rare
Pepe's, you know, list them on Emblem Vault, list them on the various places, but also go to Horizon
Market. I think it's the kind of thing once people kind of get a habit of like, okay, there's some
liquidity here, I'm going to check Horizon Market. I think it's kind of a natural that that experience will become more and more
popular. It's, yeah, I enjoyed using the wallet. And it's like, that is definitely, definitely the
way to do this. So we just got to get people to use it pretty much now. Fully agreed. I think,
I think that the usage comes first. I think that getting that making it easy and accessible for people to work with this historically significant and seminal protocol with seminal artwork on it.
And all of this history is really the first thing. So just this, this like relegated to some dusty back
room where everyone's like, I guess that still exists.
It should be a, wow, look at all the, all the historical assets that you can trade.
Look at, look at how you have access to all of this history and all this value and all
this community and all this culture.
Completely agree.
I, yeah, I, I'm totally on board for all of this. Um, it's very much,
very much needed. I know you got to meet Casey, I believe for the first time.
Am I correct in saying that? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was on hell money. Um, and, uh, I think it launched
maybe like that, that was released a month ago. Um, but I met him and Aaron, uh, at, um, in Vegas.
Um, and, um, yeah, it was great working with them.
It was great talking with them.
That was a wonderful podcast.
We talked about a lot of juicy subjects, Bitcoin ecosystem, history, meta protocol, ecosystems
and markets and differences and similarities and the past, present and future.
Yeah, I actually didn't listen to it.
I need to go back and listen to that.
But you and Casey, I mean, you guys are like, yeah, special people that have really, really,
yeah, like been basically very, very early to this idea that the Bitcoin blockchain can do more than just, you know, store the value and transfer a value of a single asset.
Right. And I do think it represents a future where the maxis have traditionally just been anti a lot of use cases of blockchains.
Right. And all of that has then happened on other
blockchains i think you and casey are building and represent this future where we can actually
do this activity kind of in alignment with bitcoin yeah and that's exciting like i think
that's not competing with bt. That's bullish for BTC.
That makes Bitcoin more secure.
You want there to be activity on the Bitcoin network.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I couldn't be more aligned with Bitcoin myself, right?
And same thing with Casey, right?
The question, you know, we're not going to convince all of the laser ad maxis, right?
Some of them are just going to dig their heels in and say, you know, this is my goal and
I have it under my couch.
But I think that's the goal.
Exactly what you described is sort of to say, listen, here's how we can work with Bitcoin
to do new stuff and enable new stuff and complement Bitcoin in a way that is good for Bitcoin
and healthy and productive and advantageous
for everyone involved and in a not douchey way. And I think it's possible. I really think it's
possible. Yeah. So how do you feel coming back, like, or think back to the initial kind of
struggles around the cultural pressure of, hey, we don't like you doing this on Bitcoin.
Fast forward 10 years.
Over the past, like, two and a half years now, essentially, I don't know the exact number right now, but I think it's, like, right around 50% of Bitcoin's transactions are this sort of, we'll just call it Web3 activity, non-BTC transfer activity.
How do you feel like, Hey, I was right.
They were proven wrong. I won. Or like, how do you feel about this sort of validation of like
the dream of counterparty and what you guys were doing 10 years ago? It's coming to fruition. It
hasn't been achieved fully, but there's a lot of metrics to say that the spark, you know, the fire has been lit.
And we're not going back to the dark ages anymore where the Maxis get to, like, rule the chain and tell us we can't do anything, right?
Like, it feels like the momentum is here and you've won in the sense that this is going to progress in the right direction going forward.
Yeah, exactly what you said.
I mean, what you said, right?
I feel my initial reaction is, wow, I was right and they were wrong.
And they are now backtracking hard.
The other piece of it is really important, which is that, and this is a major reason
that I came back to the public blockchain space and Bitcoin.
The balance of power shifted in a very important way as the ecosystem matured.
In 2014, during the first Oppurtern wars, the Bitcoin core devs had all of the power.
They were the ones who said, this is what Bitcoin is for.
This is the version of the software that you're going to run. This is how big an opportune output is going to
be. And it's not the case over the past couple of years, and especially in 2025. The Bitcoin
core developers have changed their tune. They said, actually, it, right? And they're doing it because the users and the miners are
the ones who actually run the software, right? They are the ones who actually use Bitcoin.
And so there's now finally a counterbalance to the Bitcoin core devs in their, you know,
engineering driven conservatism to say, no, this is what we want to use it for. And if you don't
release a version of Bitcoin core that does this thing, then we will patch it ourselves and we
will run it. And so instead of having this single group of 15 humans or whatever it is all saying,
this is what Bitcoin is and how it's supposed to work, you now have a much more balanced
ecosystem with checks and balances
to say that can have these debates about,
okay, what is it for and how does it work?
And the Bitcoin Core developers,
in the most recent iteration, the Operator and Wars,
I guess Operator and Wars III,
said, sort of admitted defeat and said,
listen, people are gonna do it if we don't stop them.
And also it's not bad for Bitcoin, it's totally fine.
And a big part of this was their screw-up in allowing for large quantities of data stored in taproot envelopes,
which ordinal inscriptions exploited so well.
More power to them.
That's the thing, right?
That's the thing, right?
The ecosystem is maturing.
The ecosystem is maturing, and the extreme conservatism and, I guess, whatever, not-invented-here syndrome and just sort of reactionary attitude of Bitcoin core developers in 2014 was very harmful for the Bitcoin ecosystem. And it is precisely that which created its
mortal enemy of Ethereum and all the altcoins who said, screw that, if I can't build on Bitcoin,
then I'm going to have to build my own thing. I mean, this is explicitly why Vitalik built
Ethereum. He was going to build, he said publicly,
I was going to build Ethereum
on top of Bitcoin
as a counterparty style meta protocol.
But because of the opera turn wars in 2014,
because of the attempted censorship
of counterparty
by the Bitcoin core developers,
I didn't.
I had to build a chain.
And Bitcoin lost out
on lots of opportunity to be the platform for all
this innovation and decentralized finance and value aggregation and so forth.
Bitcoin is still obviously extraordinarily successful.
It's still the center of the ecosystem.
It's still where most of the value lies.
But it's sort of despite the fact that it hasn't been the center of development energy for most of its history.
And that's shifting a little bit now and people are trying to figure out, they're trying to solve this very important problem of, you know, what does DeFi on Bitcoin look like?
How does Bitcoin, you know Bitcoin evolve into the future? How can we do these things on Bitcoin
where all the value resides, which has all that mindshare, which has that brand, which has the
history, and make it work in a way that's good for Bitcoin? And the community around Bitcoin is very
fractured, right? You have the laser at maxis, and you have the ordinals, people, and you have all
these different groups all fighting about what Bitcoin is supposed to be. And I think a big
part is there hasn't been the right narrative around it, right? There hasn't been a good,
clear narrative of this is what Bitcoin is for and this is how you use it. This is what Bitcoin
can't do. And this is how we work with Bitcoin instead of against it. So I think the chickens have come home first.
And I think that even still, it's being figured out now.
It's still early days for Bitcoin and the Bitcoin ecosystem.
Bitcoin is now, at this point in 2025, more than just digital gold already.
It's already a platform for all of these other protocols.
And it's a large chunk of their transactions, a large chunk of their activity, and it's a large chunk of the user interest.
And so how does Bitcoin respond to that?
I'm very, very, very interested and engaged with that problem today.
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm of the belief that there is a version of the world where the Bitcoin maxis were a little bit more developer friendly and like the idea of people experimenting on Bitcoin more back in 2014 and 2015.
And Vitalik then, you know, decides, hey, I'm going to try to build Ethereum on Bitcoin.
And there's no question people, I think, would have inevitably built many other blockchains anyways that was already happening at the time. And there would be faster
blockchains that are less decentralized and less secure that were very programmable. That was
always going to happen. But I think there's a world where people don't even know, Adam,
that a lot of this stuff started on Bitcoin, that Dex has started on Bitcoin, that NFTs like really started on Bitcoin.
Like people just don't even know that Web3 was very much born out of Bitcoin and on Bitcoin.
And they just kind of give that credit to Ethereum, quite honestly.
I think there's a version of the world where 10 years ago, Vitalik, these guys, a lot of smart developers,
hack and experiment a lot more into Bitcoin.
There's like hundreds of you, Adam,
and they're figuring out how to do smart contracts with MetaProtocals.
They're doing all this on Bitcoin.
I think there's a world where all of this, you know, the big, you know,
Shiba Inu token and a lot of these things and crypto punks happen on bitcoin and there's just a lot more infrastructure and network effects that are built and what happened is the network effects kind of
died off and just moved to other places basically but i think there's a world where yes there would
probably still be an equivalent of solana and these things but I think Bitcoin tokens would be so much further ahead if we had 10 years
of building infrastructure. I can't emphasize enough just watching runes over the past year,
being involved there. It takes time to do these things. And if you just have a bunch of people
working really hard for many years, it compounds and compounds and compounds. And you have to build
that infrastructure out and
attract those developers and get venture capitalists writing checks to the startups and all this and
there's an ecosystem that forms and i think there's a world where you know bit like it wasn't this
crazy thing where casey's coming back saying we should do nfts on bitcoin again like i think
there's a world where this just played out where like
Bitcoin tokens was so obvious and like a very dominant thing. And for whatever reason,
and we can debate forever why it's the case, the entire world is basically psyoped into thinking
that like you can't do tokens on Bitcoin and Bitcoin is this giant blockchain that's only
for BTC. And I think that's a total psyop.
I think it's totally false.
I think we're going to continue to move this vision forward.
But it did kind of just stop for like eight years.
Nothing happened.
And we had to completely pick it up the same way like civilization died after like Rome.
Not totally, but like we go into the dark ages, you go into the middle ages,
and then we come out again with like the Renaissance and stuff. Like, I really do feel
like that's basically what's happened here. And I'm just imagining, man, what if the Bitcoin
Maxis weren't such like obnoxious assholes and we just got to work for 10 years and build this
infrastructure? I think we would have $100 billion tokens other than BTC on the Bitcoin blockchain today.
That's my personal belief.
And I just think we're having to catch up.
That's really all that's happening here, unfortunately.
But for all of us, I guess maybe that's an opportunity, right?
I fully, fully agree.
Yeah, exactly.
I guess exactly how I see it. And what's worse is the actions of the Bitcoin core developers in 2014 were so extreme
in the resistance allowing anyone to even use Bitcoin, you know, the counterparty in
particular, in ways that they didn't expect or prefer, that all they have done was been a little bit more passive.
If they hadn't actively tried to censor counterparty,
then it would have been fine.
Then I think that what you described is a very, very realistic scenario.
If they had just had the policies that they have today back then,
then it would have been the case, right?
Like they said in 2014, the narrative from the Bitcoin core developers was,
if op return is any bigger than 40 bytes, the world will end.
And today, and for the past few years since Tappert encoding and inscriptions,
it has been possible to put 400,000 bytes in a Bitcoin transaction and everything has been fine.
Right. And that's why they finally, finally, finally reversed their position on Op return way too little too late.
But all they had to do was just not be aggressively wrong.
aggressively wrong. If they had been slightly less aggressively wrong,
it would have been, yeah, the Bitcoin ecosystem would have, would have
benefited directly from all of that innovation.
Yeah. I think there's something that happened that was important that I want to kind of call
out and give credit to just kind of the ordinals ecosystem with is that there was very much this
sort of like punk mentality, like libertarian mentality of like, you know,
fuck you, we're going to figure out a way to do this
and there's nothing you can do to stop us.
And it was like, it was an overt us versus them
kind of a thing.
And we basically just said, look,
we're going to be really technically clever.
We've got some smart people
and we're just not giving up.
We're going to, you can do that great.
Then we're going to do this.
You can do that. And then we're going to do this. It's like, we're not giving up.
And that mentality was almost like a cultural mentality of like, we know because of how this
played out before that we're going to face a lot of bullshit from doing this. But if we know that
that's the case and we're mentally prepared and have leadership that's basically charging the force forward and we're not giving up or bending the knee to these people, you eventually just break through.
And I think we broke through around December 2023 is when it felt like that moment to me where a lot of the capitulation started to happen.
And then basically all of 2024, these guys were basically silent, I would say.
And then only more recently, there's been a little bit of conversation again starting in like spring 2025. Basically all of 2024, these guys were basically silent, I would say.
And then only more recently, there's been a little bit of conversation again, starting in like spring 2025. But it was like organizing a military army on the internet of people who were just like not going to stop and they were going to keep fighting on.
And that was almost needed more than the actual anything else really and that happened and it created a safe space for developers
you know this this twitter space is a safe space for developers to build on bitcoin i don't know
where the hell you would have gone three years ago to to talk about your like meme coin bitcoin
launch pad it didn't exist any possible bitcoin podcast you went on, you would have just absolutely, first of all, you wouldn't have been invited on.
But if you had been invited on, you would have just been bullied, right?
People who were probably not very smart or technical or like very weird ideological situation would have told you a bunch of just totally untrue stuff that basically the rest
of crypto would have embraced.
And yeah, I don't know.
It's all it's very, very interesting.
It's just interesting how this is all played out, man.
It's fascinating.
We're writing the we're writing the story as it goes.
Still, none of this is over.
Like we have to keep we have to keep, you know, fighting for this fight.
But I think we're in just a much much better place than
it was for like the maybe like 2017 2018 2019 2021 2022 era agreed agreed fully 100 um the and especially i want to like highlight the the the like the punk attitude right the original like
you know the crypto punk um not the crypto but like the whatever cypher punk um history and ethos of bitcoin which was a big part of the original thing um a lot of the reason
that that um things went the way they did was because of um like uh co-opting of the ecosystem
um which went back to 2014 right um blockstreamstream was really the progenitor of all of that, right?
Blockstream hired all of the Bitcoin core developers
to build their vision of the ecosystem
in a particular way.
And they raised a ton, a ton, a ton of money.
And then they said, we're gonna do side chains, to a kingdom come. And they bet on ton, a ton, a ton of money. And then they said, we're going to do sidechains to a kingdom come.
And they bet on the wrong horse.
And they didn't.
And there wasn't this idea of, no, this is a permissionless system.
And to your question around what Satoshi would have thought, I think Satoshi was like a cypherpunk with the best of with with the best of them right um i think he he i think that's
really quite obvious dude it's so obvious i don't understand how like five years of maxi podcast
have like created this archetype of satoshi that is not fucking real like they've created a new
person it's like you can go read the stuff. Like the guy was a tech engineer, excited about experimenting.
Like you can like excited about, you know, non-financial data in the Bitcoin blockchain himself.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just, yeah, I don't know.
It's like he was super excited.
He had a poker client that was unfinished.
That was in the original Bitcoin core.
There was an eBay-style
marketplace in the code base.
He talked about time-stamping stuff
on Bitcoin as a
proof of
existence kind of thing. There's all these
examples of this kind of stuff.
The first
actual
first use case of Bitcoin, the first
thing that happened was storing an inscription on the chain before BCC transfer, which is kind of hilarious to me.
I find that.
Yeah.
Even like how Finney had the digital trading cards email.
Remember that?
That as well.
So that's like obviously a whole thing. And then there's also the fact that I think Satoshi, I don't know if Satoshi acknowledged, but there was a JPEG bop with Bitcoin in the early days, right?
But also, I'm actually just referring to the, there was a newspaper headline in the Genesis block that Satoshi inscribed.
Yeah, yeah, the banks are on the brink of the second bailout or whatever.
Bridge, yeah, on the verge of the bailout, right?
And it's like, how is, like, I'm literally sitting here, like, Trevor and Jan and I had to sit here, you know, all of 2023 just bringing Bitcoin Maxis on this show.
And, like, they would just make these outlandish claims, like, Satoshi would never do.
I'm like, dude, literally, that's literally the first thing Satoshi did was inscribed some data that he thought was cool into a bitcoin box would be there forever and then he transferred
some bitcoin i mean it's like what are you talking about and i just yeah i just think there's a
bitcoin has always been weird in that like bitcoin isn't real in the sense that it's intangible it's
an idea that exists in our minds so So the battleground is our minds.
And like that's where people play.
That's where the, you know, the Bitcoin forks of like, are we having big blocks or small blocks?
That battle exists in our minds.
And like these guys have found that like you want to get what you want.
OK, great.
And you have to convince people of that somehow.
And a very strong argument has always been like, this is the original way that Satoshi wanted.
And this is the, you know, correct, pure way to do things.
And everything else is bad.
And like that, that just got, it's actually comical of how that spiraled into what it did.
Like if we actually roll the clock back for like two and a half years, three years, it's insane.
I think these guys got a
little basically i would say a cult formed the irony is that like those cult leaders have now
all gone and started like treasury companies that i would argue are like worse than icos in many ways
the the shitty ones there's obviously legit treasury companies but like the you know the
random podcasts are starting some sketchy,
low cap treasury company. That's like highly unfavorable terms for retail. It's probably,
you know, going to unwind in 12 months. Those guys were the same people on podcast three years ago,
screaming at us for like trying to use Bitcoin for something other than storing value of BTC.
It's all just like super weird. They they were like they created a culture around speculation equals evil when i can remember
buying bitcoin when it was like twice the market cap of dog i'm telling people it felt the fucking
same guys it's the same thing okay like bitcoin bootstrapped itself through speculation it's still
bitcoin is still in the process of bootstrapping itself to the world reserve
currency through number go up speculation.
And maybe that's like it would be cool if we could get there some other way.
But that's not how we're getting there.
We are getting there through speculation.
That is just a fact.
And if you're a Bitcoiner and you cannot acknowledge that retail showing up every four years and buying
Bitcoin because they think it's going to go up quickly is not what has helped to get Bitcoin
to where it is today. I don't know what to tell you. You're living in la-la land. And yeah,
that whole ideology went so completely off the rails. And now between basically TradFi
with the ETF and then the Sailor Treasury stuff that's now going crazy.
A bunch of the voices of the Maxis have been sucked out over there. And then on our side,
like it's local sandwich attacking the Bitcoin Maxi culture. And then on our side, we're saying
like, hey, we're going to do a bunch of these other activities. And like, we ended up there,
like, where are the Bitcoin max is now where does that
where does that culture as it existed three years ago permeate today i have no idea there's probably
some edge of nostril where it exists there's probably some puritans somewhere doing you know
the same thing but for the most part that culture in my opinion has completely died and what i think
it's been replaced by hopefully is, is not like the TradFi
stuff, whatever, right? They can do their thing. Bitcoin's permissionless. But at the end of the
day, I think we, the people building on Bitcoin today, like we're the ones carrying this culture
forward in many ways. I wouldn't put all your eggs in the basket of BlackRock. It's great that
they're pumping our bags right now, whatever.
But I definitely think like we are way more aligned with the initial ethos of Bitcoin than
probably those guys are. I think those guys love money. I don't think they love Bitcoin,
if we're being honest. I think they'll do the same thing for Solana. I think they'll do the
same thing for ETH. They don't really care. They like money. And that's fine. They're almost
predictable in that way. That's great. We love Bitcoin. We're building on Bitcoin. We're trying to make Bitcoin even more robust and even more secure and
even more programmable. And I think that's super exciting. And we're doing it in a way that I think
works really, really nicely with the BTC use case and actually just compliments it. We're not asking
for some huge chain upgrade that screws over BTC use case or anything remotely like that.
So I just think all in all, the culture of Bitcoin sort of transmuted over the past two or three years here.
And we now have a totally different landscape.
And I think the builders today, like we are the future in many ways of carrying this
torch forward. And I think like one, that's super exciting and awesome. We won. But two, guys,
that's a lot of responsibility. Let's not fuck this up. OK, like let's let's really let's not
just copy paste Ethereum and so on into Bitcoin. Let's do this in a way that's aligned with with
the original Bitcoin ethos.
And I think the best possible advice I can have for people for doing that is look to people like Adam and Casey. I think they're kind of, you know, in general going to be a North Star kind of thing
where there's a really nice balance being struck between, okay, they're doing like weird 4chan rugging people on Solana
meme coins and the maxi kind of ideology originally with Bitcoin. There's got to be a happy medium
there. There's definitely got to be a way to issue tokens ethically and not trying to scam people.
Not every token is a scam. Let's have our own unique culture here and kind of blend these things together
and carry Bitcoin forward. And yeah, I think it's very exciting, Adam. I get super amped
up every time you come on the show, man. Thanks so much. Yeah, I fully, fully agree.
I really couldn't be more aligned on that stuff. And I really appreciate you saying
all of that so well. It's meaningful to me. And and adam so um can people like is it easier to build
on counterparty now like what should the developers in the audience do should they
you know go to obviously go to horizon market i want to actually ask some questions about rare
pad base but uh yeah like are this like overhaul that you did does it make it easier to build on Counterparty now? Yeah, definitely.
It's like we have a new Indexer API,
which is like friendly, it's scalable.
It's like possible to run a node really well.
The bootstrapping time is very low.
It's like well under a day.
It's, yeah, much, much, much easier to use Counterparty.
All of the development that we do with Counterparty for Horizon Market, for Horizon Wallet,
all uses the vanilla Counterparty node API.
We don't have any middleware or anything like that.
So all of the work that's gone into improving Counterparty
has, like the protocol and the implementation
is accessible to any developer, and it makes it much, much, much easier to work with. to improving Counterparty has, like the protocol and the implementation
is accessible to any developer
and it makes it much, much, much easier to work with.
The documentation has been updated,
again, tests, everything.
So obviously if you're a developer
and you want to build something cool,
reach out to me on Twitter or Telegram.
And yeah, it's now quite possible and, and encouraged.
And are there some unique features that people could leverage with,
with NFTs? Like, so for, on Ordinals, we have like recursion,
we have like parent child and these kinds of things. And like, you know,
how we made like pizza pets, you leveraging these,
are there kind of other features of theparty that are, of course, different?
You know what I mean?
Or things that you're working on that will just allow some crazy speculation, degeneracy type of games for people to make?
I mean, Counterparty has a lot of features.
I mean, there's so many.
Things like dividends, things like subassets,
things like the new Fairminters feature
is probably the most exciting one to me.
When we first launched, there was a ton of excitement
for like a week or two.
And we made some significant upgrades
that were just released.
And there's a lot of potential there
to do very cool stuff that only works like Counterparty
in the way the Counterparty does Fairminting. That's a good of potential there to do very cool stuff that only works like counterparty in the way the counterparty does um fermenting um that's that's a good place to look and so and so dividends
explain that feature to everybody so that basically allows you to just like airdrop assets to yeah
holders of a specific collection yes exactly um a specific asset yeah and therefore a specific
collection um and it's efficient and fast and and uh fees are low that's pretty crazy that's actually something i remember from before when
i was doing the stamps giveaways on the show like the dividends is a pretty cool feature
and so just you said dispensers still there so like talk about the fairment feature and talk
about dispensers a little bit yeah fairmenting allows anyone to sort of create an asset then
then other people create um like other people issue the asset.
They just say, now anyone can create it.
Then there are a bunch of different parameters there.
You can have a commission in XCP,
you can have a commission in BTC,
you can have a start block and end block.
You can have all sorts of different features there.
What other ones?
Max minted per transaction, et cetera, et cetera.
And dispensers.
Dispensers have worked more or less the way they always have.
There have been some tweaks to the protocol over the past couple of years to fix some security vulnerabilities and to improve performance.
But they continue to work. They will continue to work. They are supported in the market.
And how does, you mentioned royalties. Like, this is always a debate on the show. Leo's an
anti-royalties guy. I'm like, you know, if you you if you it's you know leave it up to the artist
right like how does it work can people get around can people get around it because royalties are
you know notoriously get around it it is a yeah exactly yeah we my position is you leave it up
to the artist um and it's it's pretty much opt-in anyway because you can get around it it's a it is
a marketplace feature it's not a protocol feature.
That's cool.
And yeah, in terms of like,
so like I go in there,
I see like rare pepies,
I see spells of Genesis.
Like it'd be cool even to like,
this main idea for like a feature is like to have like a chat GPT kind of summary on each asset
and like know like the history and even like the date, like,
I think as opposed to like other marketplaces for counterparty assets,
like have it,
like knowing the date that it was made is going to be, is,
is a pretty compelling stat that like people aren't going to care about on
like open C or probably a magic Eden. Like, have you, have you thought about
other ways to like kind of highlight, I guess,
the uniqueness of some of these in the provenance
and the history of some of these assets?
I see Rare Pet Base have, it says 150,000 holders.
Is that true?
That's crazy.
Yeah, I believe it.
There are a lot of users.
A lot of people have been doing this for a long time.
Showing the date, the creation date, is a good idea.
I like that.
Yeah, Trevor, there's like, you know, billions of like Rare Pepe.
Like the Rare Pepe collection is like absolutely singular in its existence in NFTs and digital art.
Yeah, it's not a collection in the same way that a lot of other things are collections,
right?
It's not like, you know, it's not CryptoPunks.
You know, all these counterparty apps were created before collections became, you know,
sort of a thing like they are like Pizza Ninjas, right?
And a lot of the work that we've had to do with the market development was figuring out
how to make it make counterparty stuff understandable um while still letting it be counterparty right by not
being able to have like it just it just works differently and a lot of the historical assets
especially have all sorts of weird edge cases and stuff yeah so there's there's basically almost
2 000 cards so basically it's like kind of like a collection of uh semi-fungible tokens like erc
1155 so people are familiar with those like is like open editions, right? Is that correct?
Yeah.
And how many editions of each card are there? Is that shown in the marketplace?
I don't think we show that. No, we don't show that.
And that'd be cool to see. And do you have data on like historical volume, like all time volume? Or is there a way to kind of retroactively check like how many? I mean, Rare Prepors have also been traded on OpenSea because of Emblem Vault. They've been wrapped there and done a ton of volume, which you could probably also pull some of the stats from that. But like, is there a way to see like how much BTC volume has been traded in these all the time? That'd be pretty crazy.
You can see, yeah, if you go to any asset and you click on max for the chart, you can
see what the total overall historical volume is. That's only right now swaps and dispensers.
It doesn't include emblem fault or anything like that.
Okay.
Oh, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead. Sorry.
I was gonna say, yeah, I hit max.
I mean, this is pretty cool.
I'd love to see it updated in the top as well,
but when I hit max, it shows like rare Pepe number one,
I think it is like the Nakamoto one.
It says 93 million in volume.
That's pretty crazy.
Yeah,
that's exciting.
Go ahead,
Leo.
I was just saying like Pepe.wtf is a great site.
It's not for all counterparty assets,
but just for like the rare Pepe collection,
it's a,
it's a kind of the go-to site for exploring specifically rare Pepe's,
which I highly recommend for people.
I think they actually do so leo what what rare pepe would you recommend people try to buy if they're like they don't own any rare pepes i mean that's like such a hard thing i'm telling you
guys rare pepes is not a collection where it's just like sweet before like you got to go like
look i think here here's what i'll say here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. I think the fun of Rare Pepe is the collecting.
Like you really get to be a collector.
Go to pepe.wcf and have fun learning.
Like have fun going down that rabbit hole and becoming a collector again.
I don't want to just tell people, hey, like, you know, this is like, you know, the most popular rare pepe you should get you know there's
definitely like if here's what i'll say there's a few you know like uh i you know you could get
some like season one series one you know one of the first cards um that has you know a little bit
higher supply there's a sweet spot with their pepes guys where you got to look at the supply so there's some cards that literally have a supply of one right they're
literally one of ones and then there's some cards that have a supply of like a quadrillion
so if you buy like one out of a quadrillion you you're owning a very tiny fraction of that card
you're probably not gonna be probably not gonna be worth very much right and it's gonna be very
hard to acquire a one of one rare Pepe. Good luck with that.
There's, you know, there's the competition where people are trying to literally own the, like the most number of rare Pepe. So there's literally a hierarchy of people and
wallets that own the most number of rare Pepe. And it's, it's a legit competition among people.
And it's very, very hard to get up on the ranks there. You will have to literally DM thousands of people to try to get on the ranks because there's artists that issued a rare Pepe in 2017 who've only talked to one person since then.
You're going to have to hunt that person down and get them to send you one of their rare Pepes.
It's a very wild situation.
It's a very wild situation.
These things have been around for almost 10 years now.
And yeah, but check out pepe.wtf, click the assets tab, and then basically just, you know,
look through the first, the first, the series one cards.
I think are a great, great place to start.
See if something sticks out to you and maybe find something with a supply of like 10,000
or a thousand.
That might be a good place to start.
Yeah, my head is spinning right now.
Adam.
Trevor, you got to be careful, man.
It can consume your life.
You got to be careful.
Yeah, dude. When I start collecting stuff, I get obsessive.
So I got to be careful.
Adam, is there a
way that you could even make like the dividends feature um also like apply to ordinal to ordinals
like could i issue a dividend to like pizza ninja holders that's a counterparty asset have you
thought about that uh you can't do that um, there's no way to do that.
Yeah, the ordinals owners are not tracked by counterparty.
It wouldn't work.
Counterparty would have to include the ordinals indexer within it.
It would be a very different thing.
And does it being an account-based model help with that?
Yeah, it's necessary.
It's necessary, exactly.
Okay.
Yeah, because I noticed with,
one of the things that happens with ordinals is like,
you know, I don't know,
something's going to happen later today, guys,
which has kind of made me think about this.
But for example,
like when we inscribed all the traits of Pizza Ninjas, we had like in the in the um original og 1500 and i inscribed
them to one of my wallets one of the accounts of max first and so there's like 500 you know kind of
like ordinals that are just the sole purpose of them is to be used for recursion to like build
the pizza ninjas they're just the traits like the the head the the hand this kind of thing
i can i cannot open that wallet that address and like look at the ordinals because it's like the Pizza Ninjas, they're just the traits like the head, the hand, this kind of thing.
I cannot open that address and look at the ordinals because it takes so long to load.
Oh, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, we've worked a lot on performance, right?
It's a big part of usability, right? You have to make sure that everything loads fast.
Otherwise, it doesn't work.
Cool. Agreed. Cool. you have to make sure that everything loads fast. Otherwise, it doesn't work.
Cool. Cool.
So Adam, so devs can DM you
if they have some things they want to work with Counterparty?
Absolutely.
What could people build on Counterparty today?
Anything that you have on a wish list or anything?
I mean, the biggest thing is around particular assets, right?
Things like pepid.wtf, right?
Figuring out how to sort of what the right way to highlight the different historical communities and sub-communities and assets and collections and so forth.
I mean, it's hard for me to say because if I thought it were the highest priority, then I'd be working on it in the market because you want the market to sort of do a lot of stuff.
But it's just going to be one thing in the ecosystem.
We can't do everything.
I encourage people to figure out what their idea is for making, for Improter a better party and growing the ecosystem,
like what cool products they would have,
they would have, what assets or collections
that they would highlight.
Fairment thing is a good example,
but there are a lot of other things there.
And the documentation again is pretty good and up to date.
So everyone should be able to get what they need there.
And if not, yeah, open issue in GitHub, DM me, whatever.
Okay, so what is the GitHub and what is the website for the documentation?
The website is counterparty.io.
And the docs are there.
You click on docs at the top. Oh, and the GitHub repo is counterparty.xcp is the organization.
And the repository is counterparty-core.
Could I build something or could someone build something like NFT lending,
like basically lending BTC to, you know,
an exchange for a rare pet bay or something like that?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, with wrapping, you can do a lot of stuff there, yeah.
Cool. Well, Adam, man, lot of stuff there, yeah. Cool.
Well, Adam, man, yeah, congrats on launch.
It's super exciting.
This makes things very accessible,
and it's cool to be able to be able to buy rare Pepes with Xverse.
I don't have to go to OpenSea anymore, you know,
to buy the counterparty assets.
And, yeah, it's exciting, man.
I hope people check it out.
Like Leo said, also pepe.wt is a cool site for exploring where Pepe's.
They see Spells of Genesis is pretty popular.
There's a lot of projects actually listed here that I haven't even heard of,
but I probably should have.
So I'm going to be Googling them and chat GBT-ing them to learn more.
And yeah, hats off for making, revamping the system and making this super accessible for people today.
Thanks so much.
Yeah, it's really great to have the alignment and the overall vision to be able to talk about all these different aspects of everything.
I fully agree with the sentiment that it's happening now.
We are collectively pushing Bitcoin forward and aligned with the vision in a way that
I don't know any other entity is,
any other sort of community is,
and that's a very important thing.
And I want to emphasize the synergy that I feel,
the alignment that I feel on the counterparty side with the ordinal side, with everyone in the Bitcoin ecosystem, the greater Bitcoin ecosystem, and MetaProtocols especially.
I think it's a really powerful way to move forward.
So I'm very, very excited to do all this and to work together.
Love it. Adam, appreciate you, man.
Thanks so much.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, guys, on that note,
we just wrapped up
our first segment there.
That was a banger.
We went for almost two hours.
As far as the rest of the show goes,
I figured we can kind of keep it open.
We don't have to go
for that much longer.
I know we all have a lot
to do on our Mondays,
but I'd love to hear maybe quickly from longer. I know like we all have a lot to do on our Mondays, but you know,
I'd love to hear maybe quickly from Jan.
BTC summit is now imminent.
Any big updates or anything exciting going on there you want to share with
people?
Yeah,
man.
Well,
first of all,
Adam,
thank you so much for joining us today.
I was listening the whole time and I'm excited to hear that you guys support
experts as well. I need to play around with it. I didn't excited to hear that you guys support experts as well.
I need to play around with it.
I didn't have a chance.
You know, past couple of weeks
have been pretty crazy for me.
So I didn't have a chance
to really look into anything,
but I will definitely check that out.
So thank you so much
for giving us all the updates.
Yeah, Leo, like I am just heads down.
You know, I'm working on the agenda
for the summit.
I want to announce it probably you know, I'm working on the agenda for the summit.
I want to announce it probably on Wednesday, ideally, so that, you know, people know what to expect from the content. I am I'm super pumped about the content because I think it's going to be really cool.
I think it's going to be a step up from last year, what we did.
a step up from last year, what we did. And I think in the combination with Bitcoin Asia
that is happening during the similar time, same time, I think, yeah, we're going to probably
curate the best content we can in Bitcoin these days, you know. So I think that's going to be
pretty exciting. And so I'm working on that. My brain is kind of cooked because I'm trying to figure out how to put together people into sessions.
We have like more than 50 speakers now.
So you can imagine that like, you know, just trying to figure out how to put it all together is kind of demanding, you know.
So, yeah, I've been working on that today and I will likely finish it tomorrow.
And, yeah, you know, I don't know any other updates,
you know, like it's kind of crazy because it's imminent, as you said, and there is so many
things to do. Like we're, you know, we're submitting the designs for printing and,
you know, we're trying to do something cool, some cool activations, you know, and some like
interactive like stuff for people to like take pictures with like Bitcoin price, you know, and and some like interactive like stuff for for people to like take pictures with like Bitcoin price, you know, and stuff like that.
I don't know. We're trying to do something cool.
And it just takes a lot of a lot of organization and back and forth.
And it's kind of like draining in terms of energy, because if you have attention to details like myself, you know, like I'm kind of like, oh, shit, we need to change this or this.
And this is not perfect.
And that one needs to be like changed and this color and this.
So, you know, it's kind of crazy.
But, you know, I enjoy it because I think the outcome is going to be amazing.
I hope people appreciate it.
I hope we're going to attract a lot of people.
I told you guys, or I maybe tweeted about it yesterday or last week.
I told you guys or I maybe tweeted about it yesterday or last week.
We have around 2,000 people that have access to Bitcoin Summit.
And so it's pretty crazy to me.
When I say have access, because we have the collaboration with Bitcoin Asia.
So some of their ticket holders that are paid, they have access to Bitcoin Summit by default.
And obviously, we are also doing our own registration.
We have a bunch of tickets that people can still buy today.
And so it's going to be very hard for me to predict how many people are actually going
to show up.
But, you know, even if, let's say, half of the people who have access will show up it's basically gonna be the biggest uh bitcoin builder
event you know that i guess probably has ever been hosted so far so you know it's it's crazy
it's overwhelming obviously a lot of pressure uh you know there is only tiny team of people we don't
have like 30 people on the team that that are putting everything together we're like literally
like you know i am kind of spearheading the effort and then we have like 30 people on the team that are putting everything together. We're like literally like, you know, I am kind of spearheading the effort.
And then we have like two, three other people kind of involved a little bit here and there.
And so it's a lot of pressure, man.
But I am excited.
And, you know, I just want this to be like already here so that we can hang out.
And then quote unquote, you know, I don't want to say over because obviously I don't want it to be just over,
but like, I'm just excited to see what people are going to,
going to experience in Hong Kong and get the feedback from people.
And, and hopefully it's going to be all great for everybody. So that's,
that's what I'm looking forward, man.
Love it. And Trevor, are we going to be doing a pizza situation in hong kong at all like are we
is there like i heard there's some good pizza tuxedo said there's good pizza i don't know if
it's true um is there gonna be yeah i mean i mean you'll get you'll find good pizza everywhere in
the world but we're gonna throw a banger party actually we're teaming up obviously with dog
you know maybe that's why you uh i don't know if you you uh team me up there for that one so i i
was actually literally asking about like eating pizza situation,
but this is also great.
Please continue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're going to,
we're going to throw,
we're going to throw a banger party with,
with,
with dogs.
So I,
I'm not,
I don't think we've sent out the RSVP for that yet or,
or how it's going to work,
but people,
yeah,
keep your,
keep your eyes on the timeline this week and next week to RSV for that,
RSVP for that party.
Yeah. Should be a banger.
I know a lot of work's going into it.
Yeah, I appreciate you, man.
Obviously, I mean, nobody – I don't think anybody thought that it was easy
to put on this conference.
So I think people realize it's a lot of work.
I don't even know.
Yeah, it's a lot of work, but, you know, it's cool.
You know, it's just like, as I said, like, I'm kind of perfectionist, you know, and that hurts sometimes because, you know, you really want to make everything perfect.
And, you know, with a thing like an event, nothing will ever be perfect.
There's always, like, so many things that go wrong.
Something gets dropped.
Somebody forgets something.
Somebody will change their mind last minute.
Somebody cancels.
And so, you know, it hurts me a little bit
that I am perfectionist in a sense
that I always want to make everything the best.
And so that obviously adds the stress and the pressure.
But again, like, you again, I really think that this
is needed. I think eventually if I didn't believe that it's going to add value to a lot of people
and to us as an ecosystem, I wouldn't be doing it. Again, because of the fact that it's not easy.
It's not just like you wake up one day and you say you're going to host a conference and in one
week it's done. So if I didn't believe that this is going to add a value to a lot of people and it's going to put
us on the map in in much bigger way then i wouldn't be doing it so you know i enjoy it i
enjoy the process but uh i appreciate obviously all of your guys support and and this because
it's it's teamwork and and especially the community and
like you know the community is showing up you know the dog army you know like you know they're
they're always like you know tweeting about it and always in my dms like you know what else are
we doing you know like so i i really i really i really appreciate it guys so is there going to be
any sort of fitness components of the BTC summit?
I know there was talk about a dumbbell in Vegas.
Oh my God. Yeah, we're going to do something.
So I think, you know, I told you guys in Vegas, actually, we're supposed to be doing the Bitcoin curling, the dumbbell type of thing. But the dumbbell got stuck at the customs, which is kind of a tradition with a lot of things.
When you're shipping stuff from Asia to the US, it never goes smoothly.
So unfortunately, the dumbbell got stuck for two weeks at the customs.
We couldn't do it.
And so we brought it back and we're going to do it in Hong Kong.
So, you know, the guys from Germanians and Journey, they're arranging it.
So they're also going to be giving away some bitcoin
patents so uh you know you can do a challenge and you can win some pretty cool jewelry pieces that
are related to bitcoin so so we're gonna definitely do that one uh bongo is coming so i don't know i
will probably just pretend that i'm busy so that i don't have to do any challenge with bongo you
know i don't want to lose again so uh i will probably just pretend that I need to run around the event.
But no, of course, I will participate.
But yeah, we're going to do that.
And then I am planning to do Bitcoin sauna for those who like it.
I don't know how many people like it, but I love sauna.
So we're going to do Bitcoin sauna for around 20 people.
We're doing stuff with the sauna DAO, which is like a pretty cool community.
I've been part of it for a long time.
My friend started it and he's basically traveling the world and just finding the best saunas around the world.
And so he knows every single best place in Hong Kong.
place in Hong Kong. So we're going to do a sauna. And then there are a couple other people that are
So we're going to do a sauna.
planning like some hikes and, you know, some other like fitness related stuff throughout the week.
So yeah, man, there's going to be a bunch of stuff for people that just love moving, you know?
Okay. I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that. I thought that was a mandatory for, for this event. So I'm
glad to hear you're on top of it um have you be honest have you
ever been to like a fitness expo or like olympia conference no never man never it never attracted
me you know like the olympia and this like because these guys like most of them not all of them but
most of them are on steroids you know i'm not really into that so uh it never really attracted me this kind of like professional bodybuilding just because you know i i i i don't i don't respect or well
respect you know that may be not the right word but like i would never do it myself i think it's
like it's just weird you know taking fucking steroids so i i was never attracted to that i've
never been to like a professional bodybuilding expo yeah I totally totally know how you feel
young like you know same with me and my male modeling you know people have asked
me over the years so many times to become male model but I was just like
no that doesn't interest me you know look I I just thought it might be a cool
way to get ideas for like fitness challenges or that kind of thing.
That was all.
But I knew you might not kind of be into that because of the because of the steroid thing.
You know, I feel like, you know, I really don't like it because, you know, I think I have learned over the years that actually it feels like every other influencer is is on steroids one way or another.
So, you know, it's kind of like,
you know, we're living in a fake world, you know,
Trevor, we just got the evil laugh. You noticed that we're living in a fake world. And then he
says evil laugh. Yeah, dude, Jan is all natural. Like, like literallyzechoslovakian goat milk is all he is all he drinks um and uh
yeah dude also like instagram it's not even just like the steroids but like also even like the
photoshopping the photoshopping the images you know i think there is this guy you know why i
said it right because there was this guy i forgot the name he's pretty popular youtuber but he's not
fitness influencer but he's this kind of guy that like he looks good you know like he looks good he he's not jacked but he
looks actually like pretty fit and everything right and he's always promoting all these like
you know infrared sauna and like you know this supplement and like this liver and like you know
you have to be very healthy you have to take all these natural things.
And then like he posted a video two days ago saying that he's on TRT, you know.
And like, I'm like, what the fuck, bro?
Like, so you're promoting all these fucking supplements, like live healthy.
And then the reason why you have six pack and you have like a pretty good shape,
like shoulders and chest is because you're on testosterone, you know.
So I'm like, what the fuck? Like is because you're on testosterone you know so i'm
like what the fuck like like it's it's not fair you know like we're just being uh we are being
fed fat garbage you know all the time so you're on your pizza ninjas natty of course man of course
you ask boozy though i don't know't know if he injected something, you know?
I'll have to ask Boozy. Okay, very cool. I think there was a lot of people. I've been getting DMs of people asking if Jan's Natty or not, so I think this could be Jan's most viral post of all time.
Jan dresses up in jean shorts and a jean jacket with like the top three buttons unbuttoned.
And then he poses and takes a model photograph.
And then he posts on his own account, Jan has good jeans.
Do we think this would blow up?
I don't know.
I thought you were going to say that he like, he like, he like rips the jeans,
you know,
with his muscles
because that'd be kind of
a little bit.
You can only get that
on Jan's OnlyFans.
I'm talking about on X.
I mean, dude,
I mean,
who,
if anyone has Jan's OnlyFans,
please DM me,
like right away.
that's all I got to say.
Jan,
be honest.
Is there OnlyFans?
That's another question
I get a lot.
What the fuck, bro?
Don't lie to me.
You don't get this question, bro.
If you're using like a crypto version of OnlyFans, that's okay.
We're just curious.
No, no, I don't have OnlyFans.
I have never even visited that site because...
And you're not doing any...
So like, tell us your stack.
Give us your stack.
What do you mean stack? What kind of stack? Come on, give us... I know you're doing doing any so like tell us your stack give us your stack what do you mean stack what kind of how many come on give us i know you're doing some supplements how much creatine how
much yeah i mean yeah creatine i upped the dose i'm doing like 15 grams per day these days because
you know there is a new research guys i don't know if you guys have like like looked into it
but there is new research that like it just helps brain and
especially if you don't sleep enough if you do 15 to 20 grams like it can help you uh you know with
the with the basically you know counter the effects of not having enough sleep obviously
you shouldn't probably do it every day like not sleeping and just like you know pounding creatine
but like if let's say like one day you don't sleep enough, you know,
you have to pull out an all-nighter or something, like creatine can help.
So I've upped the dose and I actually did my full body check.
I did my blood testing like a month ago and I'm going to do it again in a month
or so from now just to see if it's okay like if it doesn't have any negative effect potentially
because i haven't really changed anything else just like basically doubled my dose of creatine
and uh yeah man i mean i do creatine i do i do a little bit of protein i don't even do protein
shakes i just do a protein breakfast with some collagen with some protein vegan protein you will
go you will like it leonitis i don't know if you tried
the the protein so i i have the protein i haven't actually tried it yet you bought it like two
months ago and i have my other bag that i'm using but okay yeah so so i do like vegan protein some
collagen you know and stuff like that but i don't really do protein shakes throughout the day
you know and stuff like that but i don't really do protein shakes throughout the day
i will just have uh as much like natural stuff as possible just food you know like i i only eat
three times a day i will have a snack some greek yogurt with some collagen chia seeds and some
stuff and and that's it you know like i i don't really i don't really do anything crazy man like
i i i like to keep things simple like the the the biggest problem for me is that like i don't really do anything crazy, man. Like I like to keep things simple.
Like the biggest problem for me is that like I don't want to think about it, you know.
Like I don't want to be overwhelmed by like figuring out every day like what to eat, how much protein, this.
No, I just like prepare everything.
I know exactly what to do.
It takes me 10 minutes to prepare breakfast.
It takes me 10 minutes to prepare my lunch.
It takes me like 10, 20 minutes to do other things.
And yeah, I'm just ready to go, man.
I don't overcomplicate things.
Do you do any sort of like pre-workout?
No, I don't do that because I think it's full of bullshit.
You know, it's just full of chemicals so i only maximum i will i will have like uh you know just
uh you know some some some sugar stuff you know maybe like a little bit of honey maybe like you
know some fruits or something and you know again i don't really drink coffee these days but like
i would do like from time to time i would just have like if if i work out in the morning i would
just have some caffeine like matcha or coffee or something like that but I don't I don't do any of those like crazy guys
this is a great conversation but I don't know if you guys are aware hey what's up guys mechanics
in a space right now I was in a space yesterday where it seems like a lot of people are pro
censorship obviously we know they can't they can't really do anything I just think it's kind of funny
we're having this this space today talking about the future
of Bitcoin and then we have, I'm calling them the Bitcoin boomers because there's a lot
of people that are just a lot older over there that are pro-ETFs and all that and they're
kind of pro-censorship trying to figure out how they can charge us.
When you say pro-censorship, what do you mean, J-Doc?
While they were kicking people off the stage when they had an opposing opinion.
That has always been happening, no?
They're calling it spam.
Like, all this stuff that we're doing, meme coins, NFTs.
And obviously, like I said, they can't stop.
J-Doc, why did you go on this space?
Of course that's what they do.
Like, it's a mechanic, bro.
Like, what are you expecting?
This is not real.
Yeah, I was trying to go up there and try to school them other people. They're just getting censored
I think it's kind of funny. I
Don't know. I just thought it was funny to bring up
I thought you're talking about like censorship at like the the higher level
I saw some tweets about Europe that is like requiring some crazy facial recognition for your ex now. I was like fuck
for your ex now I was like fuck yeah one thing I saw interesting was Casey's tweet
about how because they're basically pushing everyone to knots now so
they're getting all hyped up because they got like around 16% are using knots
it's kind of funny you know but I don't know I Casey made a made a post I don't
know if you guys saw it about how this can cause like some some kind of yeah maybe you guys could post the topic because I don't I don't know if you guys saw it, about how this can cause some kind of...
Yeah, maybe you guys could post it to the top.
Because I'm not really technical on how that would work.
But it would be like a fork, I guess, they would cause.
Because people are using knots? I don't know.
Yeah, he said a bug in knots could unintentionally cause a soft fork.
Okay, is that going to be problematic or that just not not at
all not for us for that the point that case is making is that these guys run 16 of the nodes
but they could all disappear and bitcoin wouldn't change at all because they're not economic
really relevant to the network they're like if coinbase's node makes a switch or BlackRock's node makes a switch or, like, Xverse's node makes a switch, that's a big deal.
But if you're just, like, some – or you're a miner and your node makes a switch, that's a big deal.
But if you are, you know, Luke Dash Jr.'s biggest fan that has, like, .0001 bitcoin and your node makes a switch uh nothing that
happens at all zero there's zero impact on the network and i literally those 16 percent of nodes
it's no impact on the network it just doesn't mean anything yeah and i would add as well that like
since these nodes are like heavily pruned like they can't serve as like a full node for someone
who's just like trying to download the history of the blockchain with like a normal bitcoin core so like the the knots nodes can only like give data to the other knots
nodes i mean maybe maybe they give some data to bitcoin core but i'm not sure jay dog did you
actually get on stage no i they they were censoring me they wouldn't let me up you gotta like change
your like bio when you go up there and then you like change it back man i don't want to be doing all that you should be like
it's kind of funny they were like hashtag not you know uh put some laser eyes in your pfp you know
um yeah man i don't yeah i don't know what to tell you, J-Dog. That was unfortunately predictable. They're an interesting group of individuals.
Yeah, they're more early Bitcoin.
I mean, they recently got in, so they don't really have a technical understanding.
I think some people are trying to go up there and give them that understanding.
But yeah, I just thought it was funny.
A lot of them are now promoting NOS.
They have a pretty big space, so it's a lot of new people that are coming in.
So they're trying to make it seem like it's as big as the Fork Wars, basically, is what Mechanic is.
Like, it's a bunch of nonsense about changing the 21 million, so he's seeing a lot of red herrings,
which is—I don't know, that could be problematic, maybe for the people—the new people, essentially.
Not really for us, obviously, because we know how the protocol works and it's obviously not going to go away.
It's only going to multiply as far as the activity that's happening right now.
So I just thought it was funny to go into such different rooms.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I would say there is a high overlap.
I would say there is a high overlap.
Like Bitcoin, for whatever reason, has a community of people who are like anti-sunscreen.
I don't know if people have seen this.
And like the overlap between the anti-sunscreen crowd and the Bitcoin crowd is highly correlated with that.
The group of people listening to that mechanic space.
Are you pro
sunscreen leo yeah i'm very anti-sunscreen actually i love i love getting sunburned and
then having pieces of my i mean 20 years yeah exactly i mean sunscreen does have like chemicals
in it and things like this and and yeah like some like a decent amount of sun exposure is good for
you not too much you get a sunburn obviously but like the benefits of of
sunlight yeah i mean if you look if you can go out and not get sunburned that's fine the issue
your body adapts leo your body adapts and then it stops spilling at some point
ask brian johnson man ask brian johnson um yeah yeah i think look if you if you can like not get
sunburned that's great i think a lot of people get sunburned easily, and I would recommend sunscreen for those people. And I would also recommend for people who care about not getting melanomas in 30, 40, 50 years, that sunscreen's a good thing. I think it's pretty clear the evidence there.
It's pretty clear the evidence there.
But the bottom line is that, yes, mechanics space is not very friendly to our – they're not very sympathetic to our Ordinal Show beliefs, J-Dog.
And there's not a whole lot to be accomplished.
Maybe I'll request to go up there someday and talk to them and give them a piece of my mind.
But you don't get very far unfortunately i found they
like to uh they like to live in a little echo chamber and they you know they don't care if
they're right or wrong so you just you just move on keep doing their keep doing your thing you know
um i did before we move completely off the fitness topic i'm curious if has anybody on stage taking creatine before other than yon
j-dog has i have of course tuxedo has trevor okay dog night look we got a stage of creatine users so
we got six people on stage who've taken creatine i'm not taking it right now but the first time i
ever took it did you guys notice that you felt like the hulk for the next 24 hours is like
took it did you guys notice that you felt like the hulk for the next 24 hours is like
you're like muscles filled with like water like did anybody else have this experience or was this
just me no no every time jesus christ what's the 3x the dose i don't know man i took it for the
first time and like i could feel my muscles all my muscles i could like feel inside of them it was
such a weird thing they were like growing instantly it was like a crazy experience too much info bro
but you know i think that was crack the key that's a lot i'm telling you it felt like i was the hulk
i literally for like 24 hours walked around like the hulk and then it like died down i genuinely believe you're describing cialis but
okay oh bro no no no i'm talking like no no like uh that's a great that's a great that's a great
pre-workout supplement the water water weight from the creatine at like because once you get
i think like after a few days it's like the creatine water weight peaks and then it just
stops but as it was okay i don't know Obviously you guys don't know. Okay. I think
I was, that was just me then. Whatever. Um, when you, when you take creatine, you have to, um,
like don't mix it with water. Just put the powder in your mouth and then, and then drink water
afterwards. Trust me. Have you guys done the sentiment challenge ever?
Have you guys done the sentiment challenge ever?
Hell no, dude.
Hell no.
There's a video of me.
Obviously, it's like actually me, not Leonidas.
So I'm not posting it.
It's not publicly on the internet.
But I did the cinnamon challenge.
It's one tablespoon.
And it was horrible.
It was horrible.
My friend did the one chip challenge.
And I did the cinnamon challenge.
And then my other friend ate a jalapeno.
And I definitely got the worst end of it.
It was miserable.
Do not ever do that.
You basically can't breathe.
It's like a horrible experience.
Swallowing cinnamon like within one minute.
I just took a tablespoon of cinnamon dognitis and just like went straight down my throat.
And then instantly it like clogged up everything. Like I couldn't breathe was like coughing it out it's like coming out my nose and cinnamon like
it seems like when you add cinnamon to a recipe that it's like this nice warm sweet kind of flavor
it like burns you dude it's like horrible it's horrible it's very uh irritating do not do it
don't do it yeah raw cinnamon is definitely crazy, especially because it's so dry.
Your body can't consume it quick enough, and that's why you choke.
I don't know.
I used to be in culinary arts.
I used to cook and stuff.
But, yeah, I did that challenge years ago.
But, yeah, it definitely chokes you out um speaking about creatine i'm usually i started trying stuff
i don't know if you ever heard of something called tunga cat ali but it's like a root um
you definitely should look into that um and try something like going more natural stuff um glycine um there's a bunch of stuff
you could use um as far as like amino acids and stuff like that to build uh natural muscle
and strength and like that um but yeah yeah 100 like yon'm curious, as far as, like, just natural stuff goes, do you think, like, because, like, there's drugs and stuff that are obviously totally chemically derived.
Like, stuff like marijuana, that's, like, totally natural, right?
I guess it is.
I've never tried it.
I don't know if it's beneficial in any way.
Interesting.
I know, like, i don't know like there is something about like something just being
naturally existing in nature that makes it seem like it's probably better yeah man i mean i i have
nothing against this it's like my perception or my perspective or even kind of the way i look at
things is that you need to know your own body and you should test stuff
meaning that like if you want to experiment with this stuff you should probably start with some
sort of micro dosing and just like observe like is it good is it bad like you know you can do some
simple testing blood testing whatever it is right and that's how you should approach stuff instead
of just going crazy just
because somebody told you like yeah like it helps them with creativity so they
get fucking smoked like crazy and like you know I don't know like that's that's
not the approach right so especially from my perspective so so like I I don't
do these like let's say more experimental things just because like yeah i don't
have time to like really figure out what really works and what doesn't like you know if i had more
time to just biohack and do stuff then i think it would be cool to do it i actually like the approach
that like brian johnson does obviously he's an extreme because he has like freaking 30 doctors
around him but i don't think you need that you just have to like watch
yourself you have you have to be very strategic about like if you're changing your diet you should
probably not change it immediately everything you should change it step by step to kind of observe
if something is actually helping you or if it's if it's not uh helping you you know so so that's
kind of the way how i think you should approach stuff in general Otherwise, I think you cannot really know if something works or doesn't because there's so many variables and so many things
Yeah, I definitely agree with that be more responsible take your time and actually know your body and stuff
And like I said when you like I said if I say to try Tunga Cat Ali
It's like says said, it's a route. You always
definitely do your research before
trying anything, like a deep dive and
see how to interact with your bodies
and other stuff like that.
But yeah, your approach
of doing things is definitely correct
because everybody responds differently
and even if it is
natural, some natural things
people are allergic to and stuff like that so
yeah definitely do your own research and know your body know the know the stuff that you're
putting into it yeah man i have dreamt about like and this has been since like maybe 10 years ago
um i really dream about a device that like you wake up in the morning you just like put your
finger down it collects the blood blood sample and it will tell you exactly like what type of food
how like what kind of macros what kind of vitamins like you have to have that day
to like feel amazing or something like that like that that's what i want like i really want that
i don't know if it's possible when it's going going to be possible. I mean, of course it's going to be possible,
but I don't know when and who is going to be able to bring it so that anybody and everybody
can have that. And plus you have that personalized supplements and stuff. That's the world that I
want to live in, in terms of nutrition.
Yeah, definitely.
I think I saw it in a movie or something, but the movie didn't end well.
I don't know, has anybody else seen that?
The Terra Knows movie didn't end very well, but I don't know if she was going for the same market, man.
I think she was probably going for something else.
But I actually met a couple of the startups over the years that were trying to do something similar. I mean, somebody's going to figure it out. I don't think that it was necessarily like a mission impossible that it cannot be done.
It's just the way they executed. That's why they fucked up the company. But I really think
that this is something that can certainly be done. It's just somebody has to do it.
And I'm sure that a bunch of people are working on it.
Agreed. Agreed.
Look, I think AI is also going to help stuff just advance faster,
which is kind of cool.
Like, it's like there's the current rate of scientific advancement,
so that was kind of already happening
and was going to hopefully anticipate just continuing at that rate.
Plus, with AI, I think it's like just an accelerant.
I think we're going to wrap the show up here in a moment,
but we'll give the final word to a friend of the Ordinal show, Tuxedo.
If this was a big mistake, Leo, and you know it,
giving the final word to me, this show is going to go for another two hours.
But it's okay.
So I have really mixed feelings first of all
i would like twitter to add uh some new emojis because like for example i need the what the
emoji i don't see any of the emojis covering this sentiment that i i'm trying to express so i need
the what the emoji and when jan actually a few days ago he invited me to the naked dude sauna, he said hey man you gotta come like we're gonna be like 40 naked men there it's gonna be amazing.
I have mixed feelings, I just wanted to consult with Trevor because I know Leo you're going to be virtually in Hong Kong, I don't know if you're going to be virtually naked with us, but Trevor, are you going to the sauna?
Is this something I should be worried? What is this?
Dude, why are you asking me, dude?
I don't know. I don't know. I could go either way, dude.
It depends on how many drinks I have at Yon's conference beforehand and if I'm feeling...
Guys, you cannot you cannot
go to sauna drunk man like you know who is teaching you this stuff man i mean that's the
russian sauna dude you drink the you drink the uh the vodka you take shots of vodka in the sauna
and you run out in the in the in the snow naked i mean yeah i know there's no snow in hong kong but
that's my preference my god God, you guys are crazy.
Jan, it's impossible for a reasonable man to go sober to a sauna filled with naked men.
So you have to drink beforehand.
I get this point.
Bro, like nobody said you have to be naked, bro.
Like, I don't know.
Like, you know, you guys in Finland, like it's true that like in Finland, everybody is naked.
No matter what kind of sauna you go to, like you go to public sauna you know like men women everybody's naked i get it you know
you guys grew up in that kind of thing okay i get it but but bro you don't have to be naked if you
don't want to you know you can but you don't have to so we will be wearing clothes in the sauna we
will be sweating with our clothes. Are you crazy, man?
I'd rather be drunk and naked.
Wait, is Tuxedo, are you actually Finnish?
No, I'm Greek, man.
Okay, okay, you're Greek.
Right, right, right, right.
Do you do sauna a lot?
I've been to lots of countries where they do sauna.
Yes, I do.
I love it.
But the situation that Jan describes, this event is kind of different to what I've been doing so far.
So I was curious, like the details, what's going to happen there?
I mean, just to be clear, I don't think it's a nude sauna. I think, Jan, it's like people wear bathing suits basically, right?
Yeah, I mean, in Asia in general, it's like this. You have two types of saunas.
in general, it's like this.
You have two types of saunas.
They're not mixed, so they don't mix in Asia.
It's separate.
It's just guys or girls.
You cannot do together, unfortunately.
My wife is always complaining that she cannot go to sauna with me
because she would be separate with some random people
and I would be there by myself.
So that's how they do it in Asia.
In Europe, it's all together. You go to czech republic you go to finland it's all together you can you
can have like towel you can have some bath suits you know like you can choose what you want in asia
again the same thing you choose like you have a towel you you can have shorts, you know, you can be naked, whatever you want.
So, uh, so there is not really any, any rule enforcement. The thing is like, it's not really
healthy for you to have like bathing suit in sauna. It's just not great. You know? So, uh,
so instead it's better to have a towel or like, you know, have some cotton, cotton, you know,
shorts or something like that. That's okay. But if you have like some bathing suit, it's not really good for you
Gotcha. Okay. Very cool. Very cool dog night. It's the top then
Hey, um, so this is the order show. I know we just talked about y'all sorry about counterparty earlier
Just a quick question. Um, is this still are y'all still handing out like stamps? I
Mean, I mean,
I mean,
Trevor is the grandfather of all stamps.
You know,
he probably has like 10,000 of them.
I couldn't tell if that was serious or not.
Nah,
that's a joke.
I'm just kidding.
But nah,
I'm serious.
I've been listening for a minute.
That's been a while since Trevor was handing those out.
I do.
I do have some more.
How many,
how many stamps do you still have Trevor?
I think I have like half of them left. Like I made made a i made a website that tracked like all the airdrops and like full
accounting of it i you know it was kind of like um i forget why i think maybe you just got there's a
little fatigue from like all the the drops it was fun though but yeah there's still like i got to
bring it back at some point to kind of finish the job. But the time is nice.
I still got a few of them from me.
Yeah, and we did.
15 other bare ones.
What we did was also that if you collected them, you got like points on the leaderboard for the initial Pizza Ninja Mint.
If you guys remember that leaderboard thing that we did, having like the stamps gave you a lot of bonus points for that.
But yeah, since the mint,
we haven't brought them back. So it's been, yeah, it's been over a year.
Nice. Nice. Um, I do have a little alpha, um, if it's okay for the announcer before y'all close
out. Well, it depends on what the alpha is, but we'll let you start if you want to.
you start if you want to yeah it's just uh so it's a mint drop um that i i did well it's active
now it's live now since 12 12 p.m east um it's called dog boost um basically it's a thousand
collection um of dog boost cans um they all have rarity with them um i'm not gonna like reveal the verity until like
after all of it meant out and if all of it meant out um i will for the first 10 rarities
um we'll be making these dog tags change um made with like 14 18 karat gold um and have like the qr code uh maybe tied to the uh or.io so display the actual
um ordinal that way um and basically connect that you know with a real asset that basically
can last forever um so that would be like for the uh 10 rare ones. And then after that, it'd be like 300 silver dog tag chains, basically with the same type of engraving.
But all this is on contingency that the, you know, the ment out in full.
We get listed on Magic Eden.
What platform is it ment out?
What platform are you using, Dog Edus?
Inscribe. Inscribe.now. I mean, Inscribe Now. listed on magic eating what platform is it meant now what platform are you using uh inscribe uh
inscribe dot now i mean i'm inscribed now right now okay very cool very yeah sorry very cool yeah which can you lock wishing you lock with it dude oh yeah definitely definitely and like
i said the first hundred of them is free so you just pay the the you know the fee or whatever but yeah hopefully y'all check it out
um like i said definitely uh something i've been working on um even through all the drama i've been
in so i appreciate you you know let me come up here and speak yeah man of course of course um
appreciate you coming up uh i think we'll give the final word to Tuxedo,
and then we will wrap the show here, guys.
Well, since there's something else in my mind lately,
I don't know, have you heard about it? Leo is laughing.
No, again, when it comes to the final words,
the final words should always include
the free and fair movement of DOC. For
those who don't know, it's a rune, it's on Bitcoin, and it had ups and downs, it has the strongest
army backing it, it has people that are ready to, I don't want to say die for it, but it seems like
that. So if you're looking for a new home, because I don't even call it a community anymore.
I've stopped calling it a community for quite some time now.
If you're looking for a new home with amazing people to connect, you should definitely check Dog out.
It's not only about making money here.
Obviously, you're not going to become gajillionaires overnight.
But if you believe in it, like people believed in Bitcoin
in the early days, and if I can compare it to something, I would say if you missed Bitcoin,
then probably DOG is your next best chance that you have in this industry. DOG is also
going to go to Hong Kong, and this gives me a good opportunity to shield the second thing I want to shield
which is BTC Summit
for those who are living
under a rock
at this point.
Jan from Xverse
he happens also
to be a co-host.
Hang on, hang on, hang on.
I don't like how
it gets said like that.
It's Jan from the Ordinal Show.
Jan from the Ordinal Show.
No, Leo.
I did that on purpose
because...
Tuxedo, this is a pretty big show. I don't know if you noticed. Okay, this is a big show going a while. It's Jan from the Ordinal no leo no i did that on purpose because this is a pretty big show i don't know
if you noticed okay this is a big show going a while it's yon from the ordinal show that's why
you kicked him out often known as the co-host of the ordinal show you fired him leo i did that on
purpose and i don't yeah i could i got actually fired pretty bad last time, you know. Leo, do you realize, did you do it on purpose that you literally blocked me from the show?
I didn't block anything.
You moved me and you blocked me.
I couldn't even see the space afterwards.
I removed you from the stage.
We needed to test a little different talent.
It was very cold, man.
No, honestly, it was very cold man no no honestly it was it was uh
awful i had to spend three hours of my night comforting yan over a video call i had better
plans but i couldn't leave him in that in such a state so yeah this is something to be remembered
anyway as i was saying uh btc summit is going to take place in Hong Kong later this month.
And Jan from Xverse and sometimes from the Ordinal Show is going to host it.
This guy is now, in all seriousness, is pouring his soul into making this community, this industry better to forward and make BTC5 succeed, to shut down every BTC maxi, every Solana, ETH hater.
And yeah, you should definitely come.
We are having all sorts of great guests.
We are expecting, Jan, what was it?
20,000 people, if I'm not mistaken?
Or am I adding something there?
Jan, correct me, please, if I'm wrong.
Man, this me, please, if I'm wrong.
This guy, man.
El Tuxedo is like the chief bullshit officer or correspondent of the Ordnose show from now on.
But we appreciate you, man.
We appreciate the, well, not bullshit.
Maybe you're a bull correspondent, you know?
Like you're amplifying everything.
So, yeah, it's good because you're balancing bull correspondent you know like you're you're amplifying everything so uh
so yeah it's good because you're balancing my bearishness so ungrateful of you man i've been
bull posting btc summit for two months every day how dare you for free
jan i want my bio updated i want my bio updated for b want my bio updated for BTC Summit.
I want you to remove or.io and dog.
I want it to just say co-host of the Ordinal Show.
Okay.
That's a serious request.
Okay.
I'll do it.
I'll do it.
Is the Ordinal Show logo on the BTC Summit website, by the way?
Trevor, that's a good question.
Jan, we're getting our placement right.
Let's get it.
Yo, it's always the last logo, and I'm always the one to ask.
Dog Nidus, do you want to swap out with Jan right now?
Yeah, I mean, come on.
Jan's been doing a horrible job lately.
I know that's not really good for Jan. If you had to give one piece of constructive criticism to Jan Dog Nidus,
what would it be?
Uh, stop. Uh... I know that's not really good. If you had to give one piece of constructive criticism to Jan Dognitis, what would it be? Stop.
Stop being so bearish on Ornose.
This is actually a very compelling case.
This was the initial logic that we might need a new co-host.
When Jan started being bearish on Bitcoin, I was like, Trevor, can we really need a new co-host was when jan started being bearish on bitcoin
i was like trevor can we really have a show about bitcoin where one of the co-hosts is bearish on
bitcoin like is that like what what do you do in that situation and then you know we had a little
discussion and came to this conclusion that yeah it's very hard to have a bitcoin show
with a bearish co-host so we had to we had to start accepting applications. You hear that?
You hear that, Jan?
Anyway, as I was saying, everyone should come to Hong Kong.
But I have another alpha to drop.
Actually, Jan and I, we had a long discussion about this.
And yeah, we're ready to launch a new spaces which is going to
be called the better ordinal show.
And where can I find a better place to shield this new show
other than the original ordinal show?
Ordinal show 2.0 or the better ordinal show.
It's up to you to decide.
Our poll will be live in a few hours. Thank you.
Can you interview the co-founder of Freaky Kiki?
I don't know who that is.
Freaky Kiki, and then bring on the founder of Hedera Inscriptions.
That'll be a great lineup for your first show, guys.
I'm starting not to like this.
Okay.
We're going to wrap up.
It's been a great show.
Hope everybody has a great rest of their monday
and we will see you guys on wednesday i'm gonna hand it off to my wonderful co-host trevor to wrap
us up here bye guys have a great week everybody bitcoin over 120k exciting things ahead we'll see
you in hong kong Thank you.
