Yo, yo, what's up? Yo, yo, yo, let me
Hey, this is Mr. Peach. Peach, I understand how you teach to speak. Yeah, it might be a it might be a smaller one today. We'll see. I don't really know. I know a talk time was going to join but they're actually in LA right now too. So, they're not awake. So, but yeah, I'm excited
I don't know what it is. Um yeah, the moment you start doing max exposure you want. Yeah, it's like what I used to say at that old project I was at that you remember me at pancakes. Yeah. It's like the moment that you give max exposure to something you want to have it like message times reach equals the goal. Yes. So, yes. So, it's more like kind of prepping and just like talking to people like Peach and and Jim and like just getting to know like, I don't know. People will
I mean, you're you're really out here bro in the trenches. Why is it like six, seven, seven AM bro? Dude, I've been doing four spaces a week for over two weeks now and I have not missed one. I'm very proud of that. Good lad. Good lad. Yeah. Oh man. Cuz I remember I remember again, same old project that I was at before. I used to when I was in LA, I used to wake up at four o'clock, do a 430 morning meeting, go back to sleep, wake up for them to do
this. And then it's like my day would actually start at like 11 AM. But I've had like three wake up calls before then. God, LA is not the place you want to be if you want to be switched on to the rest of the world, is it? It's like, dude, Buenos Aires feels so perfect because it's it's right in the middle of everybody. Like, except for Asia, but like, it's the opposite of Asia. But it's like, as far as like, UK, and like, like East Coast stuff, almost like in was to
go as well. Um, like, as far as like, if you might not accept it, like East Coast, West Coast, and then also UK, like it's it's pretty, it's pretty awesome. Jim said he'd be joining us as well today too. But I feel like, I mean, I got to spread this around my to all my group chats. Yeah. Oh, man. I have a confession to make, like every, every space we've done, you said, retweet the space, retweet the space. I'm like, I'm such a frickin
cannot figure out how to actually just retweet the live space. Can someone I just go straight to, I just go to Rio's profile. And then I read tweet, he always wait. So I like, I just retweet Rio's tweet. Yeah. Yeah, there's also a share button in the top right corner that you like you click and you click copy link and you paste it into a tweet. You can do that you can that's probably better for your algorithm than just retweeting mine. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So that works as well. I'm just retweeting and then I'm going to, um, I'm going to spam all my group chats again until I get kicked out again. Let's see. I really just the vibe of LA. The vibe of LA really is like, it's like you go there to be in its own. It's like its own bubble. You're not on anyone else's timeframe. Like you wake up and everybody's days over and you go to sleep and everyone should start in. It's like you go there when you, I think it only really makes sense to live there
fully made it. And you just want to like be in your own world and then everyone there's in the same spot in it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, Jim's here. Good. Jim, I'm going to invite you to co-host. Wait, hold on. I got it. Oh, except monkey. And then cancel that. And then it's like Jim to co-host. We need some nice, uh, nice monotone energy this morning. Monkey, what's up? What's up, bro? Jim, bro.
How you doing? Nice. Good bro. Been sleeping a lot since I got back, uh, from BA. Yeah, I'm sure. Dude, these like randomly, these like dot basement domains have been like getting bought a bunch last night. I don't know why. Nice dude. It's because it's a good domain, bro. Everyone wants to own their base. Yeah, I guess so. Jim, I sent you a, sent you a coast invite. Where are you? I hope you get your food.
Uh, what you, what you sent me today was a really cool tease too. When are you going to release, release a screenshot of that? Um, well, we probably won't release that until we've actually got the product. Well, that makes sense. Um, it's going to be, I mean, we're, we're a couple of weeks out from that, which, I mean, it's, it is super okay. I'll give a, I won't, I won't tease the screenshot, but just a tease. And the thing we're working on about, uh,
with clubs, like two really big features. So right, so right now clubs are, they're like discord service for music. So it's like chat channels where you can chat with each other, but you can also actually like make music, um, in those chat channels, like share little bits of music. Someone can take that layer, something down on top of it. Um, but what we're working on right now is like a radio station for each club. So every, every club just had like a single channel radio station and like club
owners, club mods can basically like send anything to the radio station. So it's just kind of like live playlist basically. And, um, and then after that, like very soon after that, we will be shipping club discovery. So when you go, when you go to NSFM slash clubs, or probably like eventually in the long run, you just go to NSFM and you'll just see this like page of clubs and you can just tune into their radio station.
So you can like hear the kind of stuff that people are making. Um, so yeah, that's going to be coming soon, which I'm, I'm super excited about because, you know, right, right now clubs are these kind of like really super silo spaces, which is cool because they're very intimate, but, you know, that was the, that was the issue with like, yeah, that was an issue. The last company I was at too, where it was like, yeah, like what's the discovery mode? Like, how are you going to find new people and let you already know about them
that's really dope. I'm excited for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a feeling that that, that is the kind of point, you know, to, to Peach's point earlier about, um, you don't want to start really, uh, really shouting about things until you know, you've got something that's going to be really good. I mean, you know, we need to see how people use it once, once it gets into their hands. But I have a feeling like that's, that's the kind of tipping point, tipping point feature set. Really. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I'm really excited. I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited to get Peach in the room with all of us and just kind of kick it and, and him see what you guys have going on. Cause yeah. Peach's Peach is a lot more, um, he's a lot deeper, uh, rooted in the industry than he even lets on here. And Peach, I mentioned the band you mentioned to me, uh, the other day to my girlfriend and she like freaked out a little bit. It was kind of funny. Oh yeah. The one that fucking stole from me. Yeah. She
had two were staying with and I was like, yeah, she's like, shut the fuck up. So like their label, I was working with cause their label were like trying to get me cause I was like, cause my managers were like friends with them. And I was also really close friends with all, like all of their new signings. Their secret signings, their label were the kind that did secret deals with like ministry of sound pioneered with like London grammar where they started basically they'd give you a couple of hundred grand and you'd compete within the arts.
And they wouldn't tell anyone that like they're not ending. They've got major backing. They've got like the kind of people to get you on play. They get you like on the radio station. So all of a sudden, and it kind of ruined the industry a little bit for a while. Cause it just turned it into this space where like all the really independent artists were getting measured against people that had the biggest producers in the country backing them. The biggest like radio plug is getting them ahead and like no one knew it.
And the music would think like that's, that's the level that indie musicians should be at. And if you're not at that level, you're not a real player. And that kind of destroyed like that lower level. But I was friends with all their, all their new signings. And I went and wrote a, I co-wrote like five or six songs one day with this guy called Lewis. He was one of their big new signings. He ended up being a songwriter more than anything. And they put a, they were putting a call out. So people didn't know what their second and third albums were mostly
puzzle pieces of like bits of like hooks that were going around the industry. Like they had a sound and bands often become this, bands often become like, they're almost like a format. And then other people write the hooks, but they've got this format of like, here's what we sound like. And then we just take all the, we just like jigsaw together these songs and the hooks that are going around the industry. People are buying from each other. And yeah, they ended up taking something that I wrote with Lewis. They didn't get credit. I think Lewis didn't get credit.
He gave it to them, but like he was on their label. So like he got a bigger deal because of it. He got like on his publishing side, cause they gave him like a complete kind of 360 deal, whatever you call it. And he just got, he didn't, he hadn't signed the other side of his contract yet. He'd only signed his label side. And then when they got him on the publishing, they, they just gave him a bigger deal because he'd given them hooks and stuff. So like he was leveraging it for their, for his industry clout. And every time I hear them now
they were, they were kind of a really good example of that. Like they didn't have major backing initially, but his parents that the lead singer's parents were like famous in the UK. They were really rich and famous cause they were like, they were soap opera stars in the UK. So they had, they had like, they, they built a, they built a house in their garden for him. And the whole band from the age of 16 to 24, they lived in this house and they did a load of drugs and they,
and they wrote an album and it, and then they had the album for like five years, just like they were playing it as like they were perfecting it. And then they got this manager that eventually got them this deal. And then they signed to, they signed to the good soldier. And then yeah, that was like their moment. But it's weird. The advantages some people have. It's weird. And I do like the band. Yeah. I did. I'm not, I'm not going to tell anybody else, but I just texted Tim who it was. And he was like, wow.
You didn't know. Well, there's bigger, I mean, there's bigger people who I hugged. I've done stuff. Yeah. Like they were probably, they were one you wouldn't expect. There's a lot of boy bands, but I'll tell you when I see you Jim. We're going to see each other in London pretty soon. I think so. Yeah. That makes sense. Are you making that? You're making plans for dinner. Aren't you? We're still on board. Yeah. Or is she lying to me? All right. I'm also, I'm also trying to get tickets
for texts, doing a small set in the round house on the 17th in the round house. Yeah. We should go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Get me, get me a ticket. I'll make sure our flight is early on the six. Well, I'm going to try it. They're probably going to sell out in like 30 seconds. Well, I'll just buy, I'll buy, I'll buy fucking. Yeah. I'll buy resell tickets. When is, when is it? When is it? When are they doing their ticket launch? Like now?
8 PM today. All right. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be just unbelievable. Speaking of round house image and just sent me her, her email to, to her, her round house. We might do a couple of days in her studio, a peak just with my artist and, and you and whoever else we have there. So I was like, I can, I can finally afford it. So I might get like two nights just like in the studio and maybe she'll pull up. And I don't know how busy she is these days. I'm sure extra.
busy, but yeah, I think that'll be fun. I would love to meet Imogen. I'm sure you will. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm sure we'll at least go say what's up to her. Yeah. We'll be there for two weeks, but yeah, that'll be super fun. I'll, I'll, I'll spell all the industry. See when we're in person, I'll spell all the industry secrets, Jim, like you'll, you'll get to know some of the, it's like behind the scenes. It's like really shady. And then some people get
on the stage and I don't know, it's a bit of a weird one. Music ultimately is this hugely collaborative thing. And then the end result is that usually one person Bennett, like everyone benefits from one or two people get in the most credit. Or that's how it's like. Yeah. Like if this one person's like on the stage as the big guy, we all just in the background kind of leverage in our own ways. But ultimately it's a, it's just a big game. I worked with a load of boy buns and obviously that's probably the worst part of the industry.
Yeah. I would actually say the band that you know about that, like rock band that like I, like I worked with one of the songwriters for, I would say they're a boy band to be honest, bro. Their structure, the way that they worked in the industry was more like a boy band than a rock band. That's the modern way. Yeah. Interesting. That's his own thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, like I said, hopefully things like, like what Tim's building helps helps. Can you even the field there?
But I have a feeling it's still going to be dog dog a little bit. It's just how it goes. It's like, yeah, it's like, it's this hugely collaborative thing. And then you have to, some people get to take credit on it. And everybody else just has to lever it with like word of mouth. It's what they call a smoke and mirrors industry. Well, like you don't, until you behind the veiled curtains until you behind, like on the other side of the smoke and mirrors, you don't see how it really works. And then when you do, it's also simple
and you kind of end up hating it. But like, if the more we can remove those smoke and mirrors, and it's like, just make it this collaborative process with if you're a good plugger, if you're a songwriter, if you're a producer, if you remake things, or like, those kind of people, ultimately, it's the same thing on the other side of the curtain, except the people that are controlling the smoke machine, they're the ones that benefit. And if you just remove them, and it's just the people that do things, which is why I think the collaborative apps are like
really, really collaboration apps. I'm curious. Yeah, Tim, what do you think that like, as far as what you're building, like, what do you see label response going to be like, do you think label are going to encourage their artists to use something like this? Are they going to be like, give, give some kind of excuse? Like, ah, it's probably not the best idea for you. Or what are you kind of hearing in a second? Well, I think that, you know, that the answer to that has a timeline, I'd say. And, you know, in the kind
of, there's like 100 million people on the platform, then, like, you know, everybody is going to need to either be in a club or better still have their own club. I think what what we're aiming for in the next kind of two years, really, is to build a really amazing place for kind of grassroots communities to form. And that's something that I think is really important to any any artist trajectory, like the
first, like, particularly nowadays, the first thing you need to do is, like, before you can build an audience, you need to build a community. And I think that step, you know, we kind of live in a world that goes direct from the individual to the audience. And I think that's destroyed a lot of really important, a lot of really important things have been kind of undermined by that. Like, we don't really know that, like, the hangout culture and music isn't really, isn't
nearly as kind of vibrant as it used to be even like when I was in the music industry. So, so, yeah, I mean, I think in, in the first instance, with probably, like, I don't want us to go too soon for the really big artists. Like, I've seen, I've seen so many platforms make this mistake. Like, they'll, you know, one of the founders, for example, like, know someone really, you know, with
a huge audience. And they do a deal with them, you know, whatever that deal is, and then get that person to do some kind of activation on, on their platform, too early. And, you know, like 100,000 or 200,000 or a million people like come in, and have like a substandard experience. And then they all just like go out the other door. Like that people make that mistake so many times, particularly in building music platforms. So,
yeah, I mean, I think the certainly in, you know, our goal in the next two years really is to build somewhere where you can, you can build a community like from zero, and build a really healthy community. And if you're, if you're good at kind of like inspiring people and motivating people, then you'll also be able to create products, which you can then sell to that community, like actually valuable products, things that people can use, like sound packs, or like access to
collaborate with you, or, you know, can sell your time, all sorts of that kind of stuff. And, yeah, so basically, like provide this really strong grassroots platform where people, because, you know, the problem right now is that, until you've really hit the mainstream, it's just almost impossible to get paid for stuff. And meanwhile, you know, we've got more and more people are making music, and they're paying for stuff.
Like people aren't buying music anymore, really. But they are buying sound packs, and they are buying plugins, and they're buying synths. And so really, the goal is to like, well, how about we create a much better opportunity for up and coming artists to provide value to a community, and really develop like quite close relationships with that community,
like on on their journey. And then, you know, in the sort of five year plan, then we start to think more about like, how we can build for, you know, much broader audiences that are much more about like broadcast than they are about like, kind of interaction.
Yes, I wonder, it's interesting, we were trying to build bring the bigger artists onto the company I was working with previously. It was an issue with one artist where his label was like, yeah, you can join the platform, but we want 50% of everything you make on it. And that was just a really, I don't know, annoying, hard stop for me. I mean, I mean, he could have joined if he wanted to. But it was just, it was kind of a sign of like, this, this age that we're moving into, where we're going to have things like that,
where even if you're a major artists that signed and they join, I feel like labels are showing a step in and be like, Okay, cool. I'm glad you're a part of endless. But we get a, we get a cut of everything you make in there no matter what, no matter what.
Yeah, I mean, that, you know, people asking for those kind of deals is like a perfect sign that you're trying to do those deals way too early, I think. Or, or that people are really know that you're just desperate to get their artists name. I mean, that there are there are, there are channels to like grow a platform in a really grassroots way.
And I think if you, you know, if you can't nail those channels, and you know, don't be wrong, like that is super hard. It's super hard to nail those channels, but it is possible to, it is possible to do it. And if you, you know, if you try to go for growth before you've really got that golden formula, then, yeah, you get, you get big names coming to you asking for like 50% of everything you've got, which is like, I mean, well, I mean, the good thing is that like, that is clearly a really bad deal
So, you know, what I'd hope some would do in that situation is so say, okay, no, we'll, we'll grow a bit more. And then maybe you can come back to us when we're actually, well, I may, maybe at the point where, you know, it doesn't make sense for that really big artists not to be on your platform anymore.
Yeah, that's how a lot of social a lot of like, I mean, they're not they're not really the best parallels. But if you look at like YouTube and Twitch, and even Twitter and all these different places where people build up community, which are more generalized, you see that the big people come after, like, to a large degree, and then there's kind of that people form their own ways to get big through there to form community.
And to interact with each other first. So you get like, Twitch, and kick, and YouTube, and TikTok, and all these, all these places give birth to a breed of artists. And then once they're like going into the mainstream, the mainstream can't ignore it anymore. So there's all kinds of people that in in the 2010s, they used YouTube to get big like Justin B was one of the first huge ones, I'd say soldier boy was actually using that kind of stuff before him.
And yeah, my space and yeah, yeah. And then then the mainstream can't ignore it. And it's the same with like, Twitch, like it wasn't that like Jason Derulo, Chris Brown, all these people, they weren't the first users of Twitch, they came once the people that got big on Twitch was so big, that it's like, Oh, now Drake's Drake's on there. And now Chris Brown's doing to it. Now all of these different people that are big in the mainstream, it branded they come across the bridge on from the other side.
And it's like each of these platforms needs to find a way to give birth to a new type of artist. I'd say that the real trick is the collab, like, the thing that builds better products, builds better content, that has is under explored is what you're exploring it is that collaborative nature, because ultimately, when you break everything down, it's like, how does the best music come about?
It's some level of collaboration, it's the right people finding each other. And that's what's missing, you know, in most of these like platforms that I've listed that are more general, and people find ways to get up on their own, and they adapt around the social aspects to find people.
But just if there's if there's a platform that focuses on that of that social, like, initial grassroots collaboration, and finding the right people to collaborate together. That's kind of the under underutilized niche, like the thing that kind of builds a better product, you can you can make better songs that way.
And then from that, some some people are going to get big from using the platform, because they'll make better songs, and they'll find better people to promote their music. They'll find the right initial people to form an initial community with.
And then once that's the case, and once you kind of gone through a million av tests with those people, and you find they're giving you the use cases, and you build around that. At that point, you get the get to the point where it's it's unavoidable for like larger artists to use it at that point.
Again, it's like, YouTube or TikTok or Twitter, like now, now that people have got big through TikTok, every record label in the world is like half halfing on to their artists like, oh, you've got to be on TikTok, you've got to do like five TikToks before we'll even launch the album, you've got to get like this many views on this platform.
But it wasn't that way until people got big independently on TikTok first, and like artists came from there. And it's the same with it's the same with Twitch. It's like, now that these people have gotten built their personality there, and they're seen as like the MVP users of it.
Now Drake's streaming on the, okay, I don't know what he streams on, but now he uses the streaming platforms. And it's like, yeah, that's how you have to, that's the best way to look at like the leverage of a platform is that somebody has to be able to get big through using the platform.
And then big people will come from the other side of the bridge to you.
Yeah, I want to go to Bingo real quick and then make him comment on what Pete said. What's up, Bingo?
Hi. Hi, Pancake. Hi, Tim. I really like what you said, Tim, about like looking at the grassroots kind of community and kind of basis in that sense, because specifically like in London, the UK, like there are a lot of nefarious actors in space and like gay keeping is huge.
And, you know, once a new, like, if you don't fit into a certain category or a group, like if you're not, it's really hard for a young musician who's got a different sounds, a different vision, a group, different creativity to kind of flourish.
And a lot of them lose esteem and lose like faith, lose hope in the space and they just leave. Like, there's an artist specifically like Jim legacy at the moment, like he sounds is really great.
I think he's based for, I think, sorry, East London, somewhere Newham. There's a lot of new artists that are coming from Newham who don't have that whole hip hop, that rap vibe.
They're coming from like a really cool, nice indie stream. So it's nice to hear that, hopefully, but it's also about accessibility.
Like, how are you going to onboard these artists? And it's like, it's quite, it can be really tricky, but I hope that the platform will allow for those things and as well.
About IP, protecting IP, because let's face it, this is really like a dirty world as well. Like, beats get stolen, a lot of things get stolen.
There's an artist, Jim, you might know, Nolay, her name is, and she's quite an old school artist.
You know, I think when Mobb Deep first played in London, she was their opening artist. Like, that is like a massive recognition thing.
But she's on top boy now. I don't know if you've heard of the show. Again, it's like, there's so much blockages in terms of, you know, an artist getting signed.
Like, sometimes they can just be blackball, blacklisted from the industry.
And a lot of times they get signed too, and then just kind of shelved, and then not, you know, they're not, they're not able to put music out.
I've seen that happen to friends.
It's sad to see, but from, like, I'm a bit older, maybe Tim, I'm kind of your age, but I grew up, like, Island Records was like, me and my dad's place of business growing up.
So I somehow got to meet with a few people and like jamming in studios back in those days. Like, live music is real. Like, people vibe off each other in one space.
And I don't really, you know, like, I've got to meet Prince Buster, and like, a lot of like, old time reggae musicians who kind of like, passed into C's now.
But that kind of, that kind of joint enterprise, you know, that kind of partnership, like, everyone's just jamming together.
That doesn't really happen too often at the moment. I think that is a huge part of what's missing in the space. But yeah, that's all I wanted to say. I'm loving the discussion.
I love that you come every time. Thank you so much.
I love that you mentioned reggae as well, because like, I probably, it's kind of what you referred to, and like, people just leave the industry because of that, because they kind of get disheartened.
Everyone was putting me in a box of like, baby edge here, and that's what the labels wanted me as. And then I was like, that's not what I want to do.
And three, four years later, the stuff I wanted to do, it was being made across C's. And like, I wasn't with it. No one was around me that understood that that could be the next thing.
And the labels, they don't understand it until somebody does it, which is kind of this, the problem with labels and A&R is that if they could be musicians, they would.
They don't know what's coming next. They only know that something worked like two weeks ago, so they can see that it's worked. So they start looking for those kind of things.
And then so I left. And then, but I still did some creative stuff. And the most fun I actually ever had, really, was probably working with like Sunbeam and Mr. B.
And these like reggae legends, like the kind of people that like they collaborate on any type of music and they use like their deep rooted like passion for music and like that kind of thing.
Like they could do any type of music and put and bleed soul into it. And that was like, like I was making weird beats for them in every genre and they were just hitting it like, like it gave it this flair.
I don't even know how to put it into words, but like that was the most fun that I had and just being in a room with like this old reggae legend producer and like his cousin who was like credited on loads of Nicki Minaj.
And that wasn't his genre. He was an old reggae person, but he was singing on like Nicki Minaj beats and he got credited in like Super Bass and like loads of different stuff like that.
And and then I was I was put in Britpop stuff in front of him and he was he was breathing soul into it. Like I saw that as kind of a robotic songwriting style that Britpop at the time.
And he was giving it a completely different spin and like that. That's how new genres are born. That's how new mixes of genres are born is like people in a room together breathing life into music.
And I'd also say just to add to your point about let people get blacklisted and what Pancake said about people get signed and shelled.
The industry is dirty and I was around like high ups in labels and they would strategically sign people so that they could show them because they didn't want them to compete with artists that they signed with big contracts.
So they put somebody on an international contract two and a half million dollars of options and then they'd see somebody and be like, oh, this person might compete with them.
So they'd sign them on like one hundred and fifty grand deal just so that they can shelve them.
They do the album and then they're the ones that have the the decision on whether when they get to release it.
And it was like a strategic thing so that this artist would never win because they'd already signed somebody on a huge contract that they thought this is the person to own this genre.
So it is a dirty industry man. Yeah. I mean, people have been signed those contracts where you don't get to choose when your records come out like that's I don't know.
Signing a deal that that says your label gets to choose when your records come out to me is just not I don't know.
We talk about 360 deals and all this other time.
But like to me, that's one of the worst one of the worst parts of the deal you can sign is is letting someone else choose when your your albums can come out.
They should be working around here as opposed to the other way around.
Yeah, I mean, it kind of operates. Yeah, my major label operate operate like venture capital.
And, you know, there's nothing like inherently wrong with that model.
But I don't think the major labels are really straight up with the artists.
They say, you know, these artists that they're signing really young artists with like big big dreams, big visions, probably slightly naive and they're just not straight up.
And, you know, that not only are they operating like venture capital, but they also kind of have basically they own all the all the big channels.
So like imagine if a sort of VC VC like invested in a bunch of startups, but actually also really controlled which startups could actually find the right their own go to market channels.
I mean, it's kind of it's crazy.
And I think that the darker side of it is that none of this is known.
And, you know, there's a lot of selling to the dream. I mean, I know quite a few people who signed signed one of these kind of early stage deals with major labels and just got strung along and strung along and weren't allowed to release any music.
And then, you know, two, three, four years in, they just get this kind of cold hearted call.
Well, I mean, I know an artist now that had had huge, huge potential early on 10, 10 years ago when he got signed and he, you know, his first album was was a major hit for especially for the level who was that he was signed to a really good label.
And then since then, it's fizzled off just because of the links of time they put in between his releases. It's been ridiculous.
And now he, you know, he's texted me that he's having trouble paying his rent and he's still signed to this huge label and has like three successful albums out and like it's still touring.
I'm just like, I don't understand. Like I don't, it doesn't make, it doesn't comprehend with me like how, I don't know how a situation like that happens when he's obviously a talented artist.
They're just, they're just, they separate his releases by like three years and he just has no chance to make any money. It's, it's kind of insane. But real quick, I wanted to, what Pete said is about reggae artists.
I haven't thought about this before until you said that is Melodose. He was up here a couple of weeks ago and he's been my friend of like 12 years.
He was in a reggae band called Roots of a Rebellion, which they toured, man, they did, they did years of touring like 200, 200 shows a year for, for a couple of years, which is like kind of at least in the US, like how you get on with a reggae band is you have to tour.
Like you have to have to tour and like, it was like seven to nine of them in this band. So it's not super easy or cheap.
And, but now he does solo music and he does so many collabs, it's insane with like the most different people. That's why he's doing so well on Spotify, because he just does collabs.
Not just collabs, but he has so many collabs and some of them are like with these big reggae bands they toured with some with, like, I know him and melody have something they're working on that's coming out.
Like what you said about these reggae bands in general, especially with Melodose, like they can collab with, with anybody it just feels like like he raps on some of his records, he has rappers on his records like it's, it's actually really impressive and I haven't really thought about that before.
Yeah, that was the most fun I had. That was like, that was really like when I met, because as a kid, that was what I thought the collaborative process was like, and they just have it in them.
Like, I think the industry kills it and a lot of people but reggae artists, this is maybe anecdotal for both of us but they keep it alive, they're willing to just collaborate on all kinds of music and breathe life into it.
They're just so welcoming, like always good, like literally always good. I haven't met many reggae artists or bands that were like, super jaded by the industry or just like, full of shit like it's, it sounds corny but like, so far at least the ones I've met are like, actually about that life and it's actually really refreshing and it's, it's sad to see that it's one of the harder genres to get, to get pushed.
Like I said here in the US, you have to tour for years and years and years before you really get to a level that you can, you could sustain yourself and they just didn't have it in them because you know you they were getting older but now Mellow does who was kind of managing and running that band.
You know, he's, he's like I'm saying with music like you know he's producing he makes all he just stays at home and makes music and he's almost making enough money to, to just live off streams which is great because he's he's doing so many collaborations and dropping a song every two weeks and it's like really really good music.
And he's, he's an artist I want to work with in the future and definitely get on Tim's platform but yeah, it's just it's sad to see that.
Yeah, I'd say almost to the bit where like, most clubs should have one reggae uncle in there, like one reggae father in there just to look after them, because like that's also open your eyes to like, like the timings that they sing over things on, like you'll think you'll get so stuck on a melody and like a timing, like,
like a sing sing coppery or whatever they call it where you were like you sing in a type of way the melody has to form like a specific type of like structure, and then they'll just come in, in a way that you didn't even think would make sense and now everything makes way more sense, like that's
definitely I would say that every club needs somebody from the reggae sphere, that might just be ironic though or like experience though so I push for it, I think, I think it's great I mean they were the first actually like band I helped shoot a music video for and like first band I really
worked with even when I was working with my first hip hop artist. We worked with them for years and like just something about the music they made. And I don't know it just felt really different really unique every single time, and it was always exciting to see them play I don't
know. Yeah, I agree. I think a reggae artist should be in every club by default.
Yeah, my anecdotal evidence was my experience was like the guy son beam was his name and he's, he was, he was part of this, like, this family of like loads of brothers that they were all in loads of different reggae stuff when they were younger, and he ended up getting credited
with Nicki Minaj's first songs like Superbase and they wrote, like, these, these brothers were like vibing out to this beat, that's like completely different genre to what they ever had done before. And they came up with the hook, but they didn't see it as a hook, and it was like completely out of time the way
and then somebody else heard what they were doing and was like, that's a hook, put it in like, like a, like a pop timing and it was like, oh, that's a huge hook that could be like somebody's like breakout hit. And then and then that was, that was like a Nicki Minaj song.
So and then I was working with him. And I met I made some grime beats. I made a Brit pop beat. I made like a weird M83 type beat and every single time he just hop on it in a completely different way. And if the music started to feel alive, like that was, that was the most fun I've had.
Tim, our goal while we're in London is to get Peach to make music again, at least for fun. Yeah, like, he sent me he sent me a couple things. I'm just like, yeah, bro, we gotta, we gotta cook, we gotta make some music. And one of my artists is bringing the first artists I manage, he's coming out and bringing a full studio set up, like, I mean, on a smaller scale, you know, we're gonna Peach, I hope you bring a guitar or something, but like, we're gonna have to do that.
Or something, but like, we're gonna have a full setup in the Airbnb, like, I just want to have at least a few days of just cooking and just making some cool music.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I want to test out the I want to test out the platform as well. Because I want to be part of like, I need to find the right people to do it for I don't have like all the time in the world, like I used to, but I do want to find people, like you've done with Mon, like, I want to find the kind of people that are like, wow, this person, I could do incredible things with like for them, even in the smallest ways, it's like, I know that this person with a little bit of what I know
can give, it would be able to elevate them and they deserve it that like, it's, it's like an equation that I could be part of for them that helps them succeed. But I'll bring my guitar, I'll write some music, but I'm more excited to try the platform.
No, did you lose me, bro? Sorry. I was just saying, I'm more excited for the platform than to do. I'll do some music. Why not? But I want to I want to see what it's like to help out other artists more.
You might you might find that you might find that in case when you meet him. He's just multi plays every instrument, just completely multi genre all over the place artist and yeah, you might you might have a good time collaborating with him and just and just kind of just jamming with him because that's kind of the space he's in now is like, he finished his album, which is like, great, you know, titles going to put him on the rising program this year, it was it was it's a co right with
with J. Cole's producer, he's got like a J. Cole co-sign. So he's doing great there. But like, I know his potential is like, way, way through the roof higher, like he's made music that won't come out. That's just like, just incredibly genre bending music. And I feel like you two are going to get along a lot. So I'm
just on that note, you just like on a completely different tangent. Some of the best songs in the world never get released or there's a
they're all in my private SoundCloud.
There's this song when I was 16. I went in with this producer, I think I've told you before, like I managed to get like my favorite band at the time when I was like 16, they'd just broken up. And like their lead singer was actually the person that I co wrote my first solo stuff with. And he he co produced it with me. And he showed me what one time for about 40 seconds, he showed me this song that he'd been working on. And it's been
in my head ever since. And he never released it. And I'm thinking I'm thinking about like, I'd buy it off him, I might message him like, I'll buy that song off you if you're never going to release it because the world needs to hear it. It's I can say I'm going to sing it to you when we're in London, I'm going to sing you the song and I'll be stuck in your head.
I'm going to send you a song after this that it's like the stuff I've sent you from case is like, like, not really, it's like shells of songs. And you're like, you know, for me, I see what they could be. But like, I'm going to send you a song after this. And you're gonna, you're gonna like get extremely angry that it never saw the light of day. And like the duo that that made it doesn't even they don't, I don't think they make music. They might, they might make music. I don't know. But like
you're gonna enjoy it a lot. So I'll send it to Tim, I'll send it around to people. They don't care. It's been 10 years since I've had the song. But it's one of those songs where it's like, I could drop it tomorrow, under an alias and it blow up. And it just like, it's just an insane song. I have records like that from multiple, like hip hop artists too. And just, it's sad to see. I just, if I had a song like that, even if there was no marketing behind it, I would just put it out
that it exists. I don't know. But I'm not a musician. So I know artists are picky about that kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah, on another tangent, you've just somehow like remind me on like putting a song out and it just blows up. That reminds me of like Post Malone, which is isn't the exact truth. It's more and it actually relates a lot to what what Tim's building because it's like, Post had found this community of like YouTubers and he was living with them. And then he did his overnight success was years in the making, let's say, so he did he was a complete overnight success.
But then it was years of building into it with the right people and being in a community that could like promote it when he did release it. And then that initial like launch was like in this hotbed for something to succeed in. And I think, yeah, that's like, we've said we said it before, but that level of like collaboration and like building into something with the right people.
It's somewhat less than everybody now looks at things like you're either an overnight success, or you just put in, like nonstop, you're just doing TikToks or something. It's like one, one extreme or the other. And it's neither. It's neither. It's like, you have to find the right people to build up with. And then it seems like you're an overnight success when when you do hit it like really big.
Yeah, they're both work. They're both a lot of hard work and like a lot of making connections along the way and staying consistent with things. I mean, a lot of it's with the industry we worked in. We work in currently where people are just like, Oh, you're just a memer on the timeline. And then all of a sudden, you're doing this big thing. And they're like, how the hell did that happen? It's like, well, because I've been working hard for three years at doing other things as well behind the scenes, other than just like shooting memes out on the
term as much as some people do. Because like, there's still work that goes into a lot of positioning and getting people like that. Like Billie Eilish had that kind of like, I think stamp on her, which I understand because of just her background. But like, she also made really great music. And she put in a lot of work for that music. And I think she deserved everything she got. So it's two sided. Like you can you can choose to grow that way. You can choose to grow the more public, like shipping things every single day. And I think both come with their positive and
look at it that way. Because they're just, they're just here. They're just there to hear the music. And that's it. Yeah, I do want to say every time peach made a tweet the other day, every time me and peach talk, about 20 or 30 minutes in, we both feel like we're on an Adderall. And we're just like, every time we talk, we just yeah, we did exactly. And we just because we're just working together some other stuff. And like, it's just like every time I think I call them almost every morning at like,
well, what was five in the morning, my time, and we would just talk for an hour and be like, all right, we gotta hang up because this is gonna go all day. But yeah, I kind of always feel that interview with peach. I'm super excited. I've only met you one time for like 20 minutes over a cigarette. And that was it. And then somehow over the last three months, we've just vibed hard. Now, we're gonna go to London and work with Tim on some stuff. And it's gonna be really, really fun. I can't believe it's like actually happening
too. Well, yeah, I mean, the world comes right comes right down to that whole point. It's just like it, you know, it takes a decade to make an overnight success. And yeah, just, you know, you've been meeting me on the timeline and doing all the other stuff that you've been doing in the background for a long time. And yeah, that's what it takes. It's kind of like, yeah, you know, you make your own luck. So well done. You made some good luck.
Now, definitely, definitely luck involved. I got really lucky. I wouldn't even met you, Tim, if I hadn't sent out, you know, $1,000 to whoever introduces me to Imogen. And then she just happened to see it and commented on it. And like that that rabbit hole led me down pretty much exactly where I am now where it's like, I'm working with peach on things. It's how I met Jim. It's how I met you, Tim, and got involved with endless like just that one lucky random tweet that she happened to see.
Like, I would have never come to London at one time if it wasn't for that tweet, just because we hit it off so well. So like, it's just weird. There's a lot of luck. But it's like, a lot of shots of the board to like, I've made myself look like an idiot so many times in front of so many of my favorite people. You should see my DMS with Kobe, like, it's like, I'm trying to like, get the attention to this girl that wants nothing to do with me. And then all of a sudden, he'll send you like,
you just have to embarrass yourself so many times. But eventually, if you're, if you're on the right tracks, things start to work out and kind of like, that's what's going on with you, Tim. You've been trying to build not this platform specifically, but just, you know, type of music experience for a really long time. And I think it finally came to you what you wanted to build. And it's all kind of coming together right when the tech is ready and right when the industry is primed for it. And right when people want it and like everything is kind of coming together at the right
pace, I think it couldn't be a better state in the industry to really something like this. Yeah, I mean, it certainly feels like the time is right. Because I mean, man, the world is changing so fast, like so fast. And like, AI is really changing things. But I don't think it is changing things in the way that people think it's changing, changing it. I mean, that, you know, a lot of the kind of the sort of tech maximalist takes that that we hear about AI
that people are going to be prompting everything we're going to, you can write a prompt and get a whole piece of music and people are going to like do that loads. And I mean, people are doing that, you know, there's really interesting platforms like Suno and a bunch of other ones where you can just like prompt a piece of music and you get something that's kind of like, quite good, quite fun. And, you know, it's a cool experience. But I think what's what's actually happening is that like, really kind of simple,
instant gratification, top of funnel experience is actually opening people up to the power of creativity. And like, AI is actually or AI, the way it's being used now, I think is really actually not very good for creativity. Because what people want is like, you know, you, you prompt this track, you get something back, you're like, Oh, okay, I've got some opinions about that. I didn't even know I had opinions about music. And I didn't, you know, I don't have
to express them. And like the AI is really rubbish. And well, particularly like music, Jen, AI is really rubbish. You know, you'd be able to say, Okay, that, but like, make it a bit, make, change it in this specific way. So I think, you know, that's gonna the current rush of really simple AI tools are gonna unlock creativity in so many people.
And the tools that they're going to use are going to have to be much more human centric than than AI. So, so yeah, I think that, you know, that's, that's, that's a really interesting time. I think actually, what, yeah, basically, what will happen is we'll suddenly realize, you know, AI made us realize, realize how important it is to be human and how much like how much we can do as well.
Yeah, I've noticed that with a lot of people say like, they're using, you know, AI to write their threads or their tweets and all that. And I'm like, you could like, I still have not dipped my toe into the into the AI space that much for inspiration, just because maybe I could benefit from it. But like, I just haven't found too much use for it. But like, for me, it seems pretty obvious that AI can kind of nudge ideas your way. And you can kind of take that and create something like really beautiful and cool with it.
And I don't really think people are going to be, I'd be wrong with this. I just have this innate feeling that people aren't going to be naturally attracted to something that was, that was completely constructed by AI, I could be totally wrong. I don't know.
I think it's the derivative game. It's like, it's there will be there will there is going to be this nature of like, because a lot of
there'll be a niche of people that are AI maximalists for sure.
Yeah, like, but there's and there's also like, like, people that like I said about that, or the band people create a format, and then it basically is like derivatives of that format. And I think there's a tipping point a lot of artists get to you could say that this about Drake, and he's maybe a business genius above what he is, like, as a music genius, like he, he is the format, and then the people that write the best things in that format, how do you make the most money? Drake sings the thing that you've written.
Yeah, so like, so if you write a song that sounds like it should be a Drake song, the goal is to get Drake to sing it. And I think AI is going to be a tool for that kind of thing that once there's a format, it's easy to replicate it. And it's easy to make a derivative of that format. But to take things further, the only role AI can play is more like an instrument that it's more like you're the human still got to be the person that's using that as an instrument, and we may even make samples that we use, we may,
the most likely avenue is that we create vote like people that are really good at making beats may use it for vocal samples and people that are really good at vocal vocal writing may use it to make beats and it's like it's going to be it's kind of like one side or the other. And even then, it's still more of an instrument that you're going to have to reshape and change around. So you may make a loop that you have to put into a door,
reshape a bit, chop up, pitch parts of it. And still, it's like you're playing some parts, but it's the human that's turning it into something with their ears. Like, what does it sound like? And how can we take it further? So there's that side that's like a self fulfilling
prophecy of like derivatives, which is what a lot of artists become, they become a format and everybody becomes like their their writers because it's like, oh, if it sounds like Drake, let's give it to Drake, we make the most money. And so AI is kind of going to play into that a lot. That's like we can make a lot of things that sound like Drake songs. And so and then he'll probably end up using a lot of those and whatever. But yeah, it's like on the other side of it. AI is probably going to become more like an instrument,
playing smaller roles. Yeah, it's still because it can't be as create it can be for it can be like creative in one sense, but not really formative. It can't take new directions without humans using their ears to listen to it and saying what worked and what didn't. And then using like basically shape reshaping what whatever they they get from the AI, other than maybe samples. So I think there is still a little bit of like, so I might use it if I if I'm making a beat, let's say I'm making a house
beat and I want somebody to say something, it's going to be easier to get like if I want a Morgan Freeman sample or something, and I want him to say something really specific. I've still got to make the beat and put it in and chop it up and put delays on the thing and like phases on his voice. But it's going to be easier for me to like get AI to mimic like Morgan Freeman saying something that it is for me to go and find Morgan, get him to say something. But that's still just a tool. That's like me using it as an instrument. So I think that that's
probably the kind of thing that the kind of role that I'll play.
Are you guys going to lean into that at all, Tim? Or do you I mean, obviously, you don't do anything previously, but are you in your head? Would it make sense to at some point have some sort of AI element to the platform to where you can use it as more of an instrument slash tool to work with with with the producers and artists that are that are using the platform?
Yeah, totally. I mean, there's I'm having a lot of chats kind of on the on the back end with various different experts in, you know, ML experts and AI experts thinking about, yeah, how, how we could create, like, what kind of tools we could give people that would kind of accelerate their path to discovering their own voice rather than just accelerate them to creating something derivative.
That's, that's a general theme.
So, yeah, I mean, we've, we've got a few, a few conversations on the boil with a few different companies that provide AI services. I mean, you know, the way that our loop builder works inside clubs today,
it really would not be that difficult to integrate into an API, and you could just like, you know, prompt a layer
and add that into a stack of loops.
So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something with something I'm thinking about a lot. Because, you know, AI, yeah, like I said, I think AI is really going to change things, but it's, I don't think it's going to change things in the way that people really expect.
And really, the, the, the experience that AI is delivering doesn't necessarily have to be delivered by AI. It's just this kind of like,
you want to be, you want to be delighted by the things that you use to express yourself.
And there's like a few different components to that delight. And it's not just like, hey, I did, I achieved maximum impact with the minimum effort.
There's also something about like, well, hey, the thing like, I really got the sense that those words I typed in
had this very specific magical effect and this magical outcome. And if, you know, if you don't really feel like there was much skill in prompting things, then you're not really going to feel that sense of agency and satisfaction.
So I think the kind of AI tools that are really going to shape the music industry will, yeah, just like, not just accelerate people towards some kind of outcome, but will also kind of accelerate people's
or amplify people's sense of agency. And yeah, it's such an interesting design space. And I don't think anyone's really, really nailed it yet.
I mean, I know, I know some really cool stuff being built, but I'm under an NDA.
You can send that over my way too, if you want, you know. No, it's funny. People always say like, oh, any time new technology comes out, they're like, oh, it's going to ruin this this way, or it's going to be interpreted this way or use this way.
I think AI is no different. We're not right about almost anything when it comes to new tech or new or new anything that comes into the world.
And I think people that think they know exactly what AI is going to do to the creative space, you know, I don't think they're correct. I don't think it's going to ruin the creative space at all because of just the word itself, creativity.
You know, I don't think anyone's close to that level.
I was creative. It kept like, and I could be wrong about this, but I was talking about this a couple years ago with some, some like gig of VCs and they didn't understand that at the time, this was pre-chat GPT.
And I was saying that like, it's probably going to be a tool to empower creativity. I mean, in movie, it's a bit more obvious that like, if you're good, if you have an idea, it can remove the steps to like the thing that you've made that's creative, that's like the idea itself to happening.
So like, if in a perfect AI, like on the other side of the uncanny valley, if you've got an idea, and then all of a sudden, you can rent the likeness of all the actors and you don't need to actually do the thing.
It's, it's like a way faster way to get it, but it still takes that, like, the agency that it being a natural process of being written and it actually mattering in that way, like, to make it a real thing.
And in music, I'd say the same thing. Back to my example of like a dance musician, instead, like they could probably, and a beat maker and people that want samples like this, there's probably a certain level of like them, them being able to creatively know that something's possible.
And instead of having to go through like loads of different hoops and trying to find the right people to do all these other steps to it, they could probably fill in some of the gap with, and it does lose something when it's less human, but they could probably in some way fill in the gap of like building some form of the sample that they then use as a tool.
But in any case of that, it's still the AI is a tool and an instrument to empower the creativity of the human, the humans, the one being formative and creative, and the AI is just removing certain steps from it.
But yeah, it's no different than a regular instrument, right? It's like, you could say like a MIDI is not human, but you use it to make awesome music. You know what I mean?
So I think, you know, we're viewing it. Yeah, we could view it in the same way where like, yeah, it's just an instrument in a sense, or it's just a platform. Yeah.
Yeah, and sequences are the same thing, like sequences, you play one note. And if you've sequenced it right, if you've created this algorithm for like the one note to be sequenced, it's like now all of a sudden, it's its own song almost like once you've sequenced it.
And that can seem a bit like, yeah, in the same in the same world of like, you taking out the humans from playing all like the hundred notes of the sequence, but actually the human had to be the one to program it to sound that way.
And also to listen to it. That's the thing that I think is really hard to word. It's the human ear that matters in all of this. AI doesn't have an ear the same way that it doesn't have human ears.
Like it's it's the ears that really do the work in songwriting. People think it's the hands, but it's it's what you hear when you when you sing something and play something that's kind of that's the thing that does the work.
And I won't have that. And I think it's you're always like in any creative medium, you're always in a dialogue between the tools and your ideas.
And there's a kind of like sort of rinse and repeat cycle like you.
And I always found this particularly when making music, but I think it applies. It applies to anything.
It's like you you have an idea like, OK, I want to do something that sounds like this.
And then you have this tool that has a certain bunch of like functions that allow you to do stuff.
And you have a stab at like translating your idea into what you think the tool can do.
And what comes out is never what you thought it would be. And and so you then you then go back to it.
But, you know, might inspire, might push you down in another direction. And the more experience you get with your tools,
the better you get at like kind of mapping your ideas or sort of pre mapping your ideas onto the capability of your tools.
And I think that's that's something that I basically I just does this kind of takes a massive data set of that basically like people's inputs and the outputs of the tools and just creating this kind of super set of data that can kind of automate that.
But but it basically like, yeah, like Peter was saying, it's just you're basically you're programming out the years, you're programming out that decision making and you're programming out that the sort of the dialogue and the learning process as like you as a sort of creative agent.
It gets into dialogue with with these tools and, you know, together between you and your tools, you end up at something new.
Exactly, exactly. I completely agree. Well, we are at the top of the hour after rap and jump into another space. But I think this was fun. I might end up shifting over these spaces back to pancakes, just because of the the reach there and like I'm not on this account as much as I want to be.
So next week, it might be pancakes space with with Tim and hopefully peach. I'm going to try and I'm going to try and finesse peach into being our permanent co host.
Let's see what I can do with that because I think he's a fun one to riff off of. But yeah, Tim, is there anything else you want to you want to, you know, give a shout out to before we we jump off?
No, just shout out to you, Peach and everyone else who's in the space. So yeah, same time.
Very soon, too, in two weeks, we'll be doing me, Peach and Tim will be in the same room doing a space together. So we're super excited about that. Well, maybe we'll separate rooms. But anyway, we'll be in the same house.
And yeah, we'll be we'll all be together. So that'll be super energetic, super fun. And but yeah, I guess we'll see you next week. Same time, probably different place, probably my pancakes account. But I'll retweet here. What's up, Bingo? Bingo, are you just waving by?
It's been a fun space. Thanks for everyone that's come up and thank you for leading the space.
Thank you. We'll see. Yep. See you next week. Bye. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.