Every rose has a stone inside it So you wrap it, you'll feel it's in the vest
Cause the more you know, the more you wish you knew less
Cause I've seen you broke, I've seen you torn to shreds
So if you stop watching TV, wishing you would know
Cause everything that you're feeling, wish you forgot
And if you stop watching TV, wishing you would know
Cause everything that you're feeling, wish you forgot
All day, sitting in your own space
If you want to heal, you don't need a miracle
It's a cold face, shadow in the doorway
Stand, you won't get out, you can't get out to hide away
So if you stop watching TV, wishing you would know
Cause everything that you're feeling, wish you forgot
And if you stop watching TV, wishing you would know
Cause everything that you're feeling, wish you forgot
So if you stop in a memory, wishing it was love
Know you can call me and I'll be around
I was supposed to stop playing after that
I'm trying to stop the music and put in my AirPods
I'm technically stupid today, here we go
I'm technically stupid every day
Oh good, Jimothy's here, I'm actually going to invite you to co-host
Oh wait, I already, hold on
Cancel co-host, Jimothy, come co-host with us
Good morning, how are you?
We're good today, we're really good
I'm going to spam it to a few groups real quick, as always
I invited some specific people up, like Amy, Jim
Nader I invited specifically
And then some random people, so yeah
I don't know, I think we've done one so far, right Tim?
Yeah, we started two weeks ago, then
Had a pause week last week, and now we're back at it
Yeah, every week, every week back at it now
So let's see, here's your question now, I bet it's bright
No it's not, I don't know who it is
Anyway, yeah, so I guess a recap for people who haven't been here
Amy, you didn't join the last space, did you?
Or an ordinator, I don't think either one of you were here
So basically Tim is the founder of this company called Endless
Which is essentially Discord for music
A really, really clean, awesome platform for producers to come in and collaborate on songs
And I honestly just do a whole lot of things over the next few months as they roll out more features
But we don't want this to be like a show space where we just talk about the product
So we just kind of want to talk music
Amy I brought up because she's working on something really cool
That I think Tim would just be really cool to hear about
Nader I brought up because he's in the social space
And I think he's just a cool person to be in this conversation with
And he's become one of my good friends here
Jim's here because he just likes setting opposite opinions of everybody
So yeah, I think we have a good little panel, it'll be a small space, but it'll be fun
Tim, you want to open up with anything, or do we just kind of get these rolling?
Yeah, no, nothing big to say, like you said, let's not do the whole...
I don't want to make this into a shield
I mean, I am going to pin something to the top from Endless each time
But it's like, we're not going to talk
We just want to talk music really, because that's kind of what all this is about
So each time, getting more musicians into the space and slowly building onto it
If there's anyone that wants to come up and speak to you, if you're a musician, please request
Yeah, because I really want to...
You know, my first life was as a musician
I spent 10 years making records, releasing records
That was like back in the time when people were still sort of paying for records
Which obviously hardly happens nowadays
So yeah, I was lucky to get to tour the world and release records
And hang out with a bunch of amazing musicians
But you know, the last 10 years, I've been much more on the tech side
And I think, if I'm honest, I feel a little bit out of...
You know, I still have good friends
You know, Rio and I met through Image and Heap
Who's a very, very, very good friend of mine
So you know, I still have musicians who are friends
You know, the music industry has changed a lot since I was actually like an active musician
And you know, I started Endless to, I guess, solve the problems that I was having as an artist
And now, you know, I want to understand
I want to get back in touch with the lives of artists
And particularly the things that people...
The challenges that people face
Because ultimately, that's what we're around to do
To find ways to meet those challenges that artists face
I did just FYI, my team...
I think it was a couple of years ago, one of my team members
After a really frank conversation
Was saying, yeah, you usually speak about 30% too long
So I'm liable to speak 30% too long
But I'll try to get up and listen
Because I really want to learn
So yeah, thank you everyone for being here
No, I like hearing you talk anyway
I mean, I know I've gone through a lot of your stuff on YouTube
Just over the last few months since we've met
I mean, really random that we even get to meet
No, you're always fun to talk to
Jim, what's up? How are you doing?
I kind of wanted you up here because like...
I also wanted to get a native opinion on it too
Ooh, Scotty's here, perfect
Amy, I would love for you to kind of like
Honestly, just show what you're kind of building
What you want to say about it
I think it's an interesting take on stuff that I haven't heard in the music space
And I kind of wanted to like get your and Jim's back and forth on it a bit
Just because I think it'd be a fun conversation for a few minutes
Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for just inviting me
The platform is cool and I adore you
So just some idea of like where my thought process is coming from
I've been a ghostwriter and songwriter in the music industry
Mostly independent, worked with some labels, worked with some publishing companies
Over the past like 15 years
And came into the crypto space on accident
But fell in love with it because I figured out that I think that this technology
Can really be a game changer for changing the face of industries
And really didn't know how that was going to happen yet
But was really interested to get to know what people were building in this space
And just did a deep dive of going to hacker houses
And talking to people who are building things in the entertainment lane
And my best friend in this space met a guy named Jason who was building something really cool
I was really sick in a hotel room in New York
And he like dragged me out of my hotel even though I was sick to meet this guy
And it was like a life changing day for me
Because that's like pretty much day one for me
Starting my journey with Rove
And Rove is a platform that is built on Solana
We've expanded to near and we're like just pretty multi-chain with it
And are talking to a couple other L1s, L2s
But what the premise of the platform is
And I like to instead of just tell you what the product is
I like to like tell you what the problem it's solving
And you can kind of get a better picture
So if you think about the music industry today
And you think about a artist
And you think about a big artist like Billie Eilish or somebody like that
And they are currently selling in a bunch of different sales funnels
Like they are selling to their audience
They are giving a bunch of different experiences, products, music
Like whatever that looks like, special experiences, ticketing, like all of those different things
And they aren't doing anything to track who their most loyal fans are
The merch is an isolated thing
The music is an isolated thing
The ticketing is an isolated thing
All of those things are isolated
And there's a glass wall that a lot of artists kind of feel is between them and their fans
And they don't really know how to reach their fans in a way that shows that they care
And they know how much they care on the other side
Like there just isn't like transparent data that's showing who the most loyal fans are
Or people that have showed up on multiple occasions for that artist
And so what Rogue is building is infrastructure that can house a bunch of different types of loyalty rewards
And a loyalty reward system for artists, comedians, athletes, sports teams
Anybody that has a fan base that can track on chain what their fan behavior is
And curate experiences, curate loyalty rewards that can go back to their fans in this ecosystem called Rogue
There's a couple of their layers to it, but that's like the high level
We also have ticketing infrastructure inside the app, so using blockchain based ticketing
We're not trying to compete with Ticketmaster or anything like that
But I think that it is an interesting add-on, especially for some of the artists we've talked to
We've talked to some huge DJs, like top 50, top 40 DJs in the world
And some of them are locked into ticketing deals at festivals and stuff like that
So Live Nation and Ticketmaster has the monopoly on their career when it comes to the festival work
But when they do isolated, just me as a DJ stuff, or when artists are doing just me
And I'm doing an isolated show and at an isolated venue, they're ticketing themselves
And the botting and scalping is absolutely wrecking them
And so having an optionality to use something like Rogue
And have that be a part of a greater ecosystem
Where we can kind of dream up anything with the infrastructure we built
So you can do things like, if you have this free NFT from the email list
And you come scan in at the event at the merch booth
You can get specialty merch because you're a part of that fan club
Or it can be more like paywall token gated where there's an elevated access
Where you're buying some sort of pass to have special access to special things
Or maybe you went to three of their events
Then you're going to be like airdropped a specialty badge or something like that
That gives you first access or priority access
It just is like whatever we can dream up and whatever makes sense for the marketing of that artist, entertainer, brand
We can create those interesting loyalty rewards systems
And the great thing is nobody knows it's on the blockchain
You don't have to know anything about crypto
You don't have to know anything about NFTs
And it's fully frictionless, we pay all the gas fees
And we're just using the benefits of blockchain to help guide these different artists, brands, athletes
Whatever that looks like to help build loyalty rewards systems using the infrastructure of blockchain
So that's the tech and that's why I fell in love with Rove
I gave up my entire consulting company to go essentially full time with them
And have been with them for about two years, I'm their head of growth
So I'm not necessarily like...
I know a lot about the tech but I've been in the weeds for a minute
They've been building on Solana since it was a 55 rank coin because the technology was optimal
And then we just have a couple other ventures that we're looking into too
But that's the high level
Yeah, some thoughts on that
I like it a lot, I think there's something there
I think it's really cool that we haven't seen yet
I'm curious to get your ears, Jim's and Nader's, anyone's thoughts really
I mean, thank you so much for giving us a lowdown on what you're doing
I mean, I think this idea of like, you know, proof of...
It's like, you know, proof of attendance protocol
Yeah, loyalty rewards and being able to track people's behaviour
And for artists to be able to own that relationship with their fans
And really track what people are doing
I mean, this is exactly what the technology is for
I was really glad to hear you say that you're making the kind of web 3 UX disappear
Which I think is just exactly right
And also, something else I want to pick up
I want to hear more about NIR as well
Because basically everything we've built in web 3 has been built on NIR
So there's definitely a nerd out thing there
But, you know, I think it's one of the biggest problems in the whole of the blockchain world
That the people who are into the technology really want the world to adopt this new UX
Where everybody has a wallet and all those wallets are self-custodied
And everybody knows how to look after their keys and this, that and the other
You know, consumers don't want that
And I don't think there will ever be a world where consumers do want that
And I appreciate that that's probably not the world that people who...
You know, the sort of die-hard supporters of blockchain want
But I think it is just a reality we have to deal with
And I think what's more interesting, or certainly to me, and certainly to Endless
Is if you create, you know, a completely sort of web 2 experience
Where you just create an account and you access an account through like an email
Or your cell phone number
And then you create all these, you know, you can create things
And you can buy things and you can earn things
And they just appear in, you know, an interface that you're very familiar with
But underneath, that's all trapped on the blockchain
And if you're really into blockchain, you can then withdraw that to a self-custodied wallet
And then you can do all the fancy stuff
I think it's, what's also really interesting is
One of the things we're looking into at Endless is sort of creating
Sorry, I'm getting into talking about Endless now
No, we can talk about it, it's still the Endless space
It's kind of the point, it's so cool
I kind of want to see where the crossovers are in some of these areas too
Exactly, because I mean, I think that what's
What I think has always been really interesting about blockchain to me
Is that we can build a world where your actions online are cumulative
Rather than just disposable and ephemeral
And I think really, you know, what Amy is doing with Rogue
And what Rogue are doing is kind of the epitome of this idea
You know, your data, your actions are cumulative online
And those cumulative actions accumulate to something that kind of like belongs to you
And belongs to the relationship that you hold between you and your favourite artist
Or an artist and their fans
That's where it gets really exciting
And that's where I think there are real opportunities to write a lot of wrongs
Around disenfranchisement and lack of ownership and lack of control
And this kind of the content consumption rat race that we're in today
And so many artists have to fight with
I mean, I feel so lucky that I kind of started building my artist career in the very late 90s
And I kind of pivoted out of my artist career into tech in the sort of beginning of the 2010s
Because, you know, the level of grind today is I don't know, it's terrifying
So I think anything that allows artists to build cumulative relationships with their fans
That aren't intermediated by anything else like that is the right stuff
And that's what we should be building today
We should be building, so yes, thank you, Amy
Hell yeah, I agree completely
Yeah, I want to get Jim and Nader's thoughts also on that
I don't know if Nader's heard Amy talk about that before
But I mean, Nader, I know you're in the SoFi space
But like it kind of relates to everything we're talking about here
You know, bridging this blockchain stuff with IRL stuff
So you might have an interesting take on it
Yeah, I think like one of the main things that I'm interested in and focused on
Just being involved with in any capacity at all
Is abstracting away like a lot of the stuff that a lot of us like geek out about
In terms of like, we might enjoy like bridging and messing around with wallets
And private keys and all this stuff
I mean, I don't like, I mean, you know, to certain extent I may do that here and there
But I think like the average person just like she was saying just doesn't
Jim loves it, Jim loves bridging
To mess with any of that stuff, right? They just want to like use an app
And it'd be great and like offer like some awesome stuff that just isn't available somewhere else
And the cool thing is, yes, blockchain actually enable a lot of this peer to peer monetization
And a lot of this, you know, ownership and stuff
So being able to kind of like wisely, I guess, abstract that away
So, so, so important and powerful
And I think like everything is just so complex
It's obviously not an easy task to make that happen
But everyone that's kind of working towards that is, you know, doing, you know, amazing work, I think
And it's definitely the area that I'm most excited about
Because we talk about L1s and L2s and like are rebuilding on Arbitrum or Optimism or whatever
But like when the user picks up their phone and goes to the app store and downloads something
They don't care if someone's using AWS or Google Cloud or whatever
It's more about the app itself
Because we still are like way, way like orders of magnitude smaller in terms of adoption
Than pretty much every other widely used social, you know, platform in existence, right?
And I think it's because of a lot of things really
But I think to get there, we need to kind of realize that users just want to have an awesome experience
And they want to, you know, get value out of something
And we can abstract the blockchain away while still bringing the benefits of it
It's that's where the adoption is going to happen
Yeah, I'm such a I'm so bullish on crypto apps or crypto protocols being like for the general public being seamless
And you know, you could literally use the whole thing in the end of that
Even knowing that you're using blockchain or crypto
Yeah, I just think that's most the most important thing
Isn't that what layer zero is doing? Like that's the point of their whole their old app
I think it's it's yeah, it's the direction, you know, I think it's kind of the direction they're getting in
Hope that's what you know, I think this cycle will get a lot closer to it
I think there's going to be a couple of companies that pull it off
Yeah, I think, yeah, I wish Pete was here
Me and Pete just talked for four hours on the phone about all this kind of stuff
But yeah, I think there'll be there might be one or two that pull it off where it's like pretty seamless
But we've had a couple that almost did it didn't quite make it
But I think that's the only thing that's going to drive like actual people using blockchain stuff
Yeah, I mean to kind of offer some like evidence for that
We built an NFT marketplace around our real time music creation tool
And we got it into to beta in kind of mid 2022
And basically most of our community
Either hated or were like deeply suspicious of us doing anything with blockchain at all
So the number of people who who did actually take up the the beta
I think we had like 65 people, you know, we have like 200,000 accounts on our platform today
So and we had like 65 people take us up on using the closed beta
But the people who and you know for a lot of those a lot of those people
There was a lot of hand holding of like, you know, it's don't you all it's here. I'm funded here
And yeah, can you tell you know, you know who to figure out how to do you know what and send me the things
I don't want to spoil it because I'm gonna go ruin it for me, but she's killing me here
It's the same thing she completely forgot how to use the thing to do the right
Yeah, no, it's I mean, it's yeah, it's it's really bad. And the reason we
We didn't kind of push forward with I mean, there are a number of different reasons
But the main one was that basically most people like particularly music and particularly in Europe
I'd say most people just fucking hate crypto sadly
and and you know, I totally understand why because
There are so many scams and rug pools and you know, it feels dangerous
And so I don't understand why
But then even the people who who did sort of like jump through all those hurdles and they just found those hurdles really
difficult to deal with and we were doing you know, we had this like real-time player where people
So people were like jamming on our app from all over the world in these kind of collectible jams
And then people were tuning into these jams on the web player like literally collecting little bits of music as they were being made
But there were just parts about
If you were confirming a transaction to buy one of those NFTs, it would then like route you through to
The like transaction confirm page and then you just like lose the audio connection
It's just there's the loads of UX stuff. And and I think
I mean one of the reasons why I'm still I'm still kind of bullish on near is that they're like their account abstraction has got really really good
When you know, we are going to be bringing a marketplace back and is going to be based on
Blockchain, but people aren't going to experience any of that
Which is yeah, which is super exciting. It's super exciting
Yeah, actually though. What's up, Jimmy? You've been quiet. What do you think about this?
Um, yeah, I'm quiet because I'm a bit tired today. So I'm gonna struggle to speak coherently
I'm all for you know, I'm excited about like applications that aren't in send, you know, they're not incentivizing people to join to make money
I think that you know, I think stuff's been dying out just because people are incentivized by the wrong things
So I'm really excited about the air drop season is what you know
Not even air drop season but people are just trying to make a fast buck out of things that are actually could be potentially beneficial in the long run
And it just falls flat on its face
So I like the idea that people you know join things because they're incentivized by interacting and engaging with with artists and creators that they you know
They like an intern that helps generate more income for the artist as well because the incentive just you know, it just creates a
Creates a positive feedback loop. I think so. Um, you know, I'm excited. I think it's a
You know, it's the kind of thing I'm excited about
I think that's what endless kind of does and and and and
What robe is gonna do is kind of a positive feedback loop like they're both products
Because they're good products. They have nothing to do with like oh, I might make money here
I mean, you know, I mean there's there's there's aspects to that and everything but it's like
You just want to use it because it's a good product and it's better with blockchain. That's that's what it comes down to
I think that's what we have to have it's just not been the case for you know, 12 years
Yeah, I think I think Jim your point about like apps about people just come to make money
I think that I don't think there's anything wrong with that
That intention but I what I see a lot and particularly a lot in the sort of web 3 music space
Is there's just one side of the problem statement, which is like artists can't make money. How do we solve this get people to pay for music
But the problem is that you know that ship has sailed along a long time ago. So I think really it's like finding ways to actually really give people value. I mean
Most people talk about this as utility, but I think that's also become quite a sort of tainted word maybe in some ways
But that's definitely something we're thinking of because ultimately that is one of the biggest challenges of the artists have these days is like in a world where people expect music to be free
How the hell can we make money
How the hell can we make money and I think something that I do that I find really interesting is that nowadays people
Everybody in the world expects to get all the music in the world
Access to all of music in the world at the touch of a button for ten bucks a month
But if you're into making music and that that audience is growing rapidly
I mean there's you know, it's getting in the high tens of millions maybe even a hundred million plus people and I think more and more with the advent of AI tools etc
More and more people are going to start dabbling with that and interestingly people who do make music they spend thousands of dollars a year on music tools on sample packs on software since guitars
But you know currently the only people who can really make these tools are like you either have to be a big company or
You have to be a very specific kind of artist who is very tech savvy
And knows how to like build these products and sell them and market them and build the channels
So I think there's in terms of like solving the problem of musicians making money
I think the future of musicians making money like the people the kind of musicians who are devoting their entire lives to music who are
Kind of incurable deep divers who are absolutely fascinated by the technology the techniques the culture, etc
Like imagine if these if it was really easy for those types of people to create to build sort of creative experiences that would help other people be creative
You know people are paying for that. So I think that's
In my mind, that's an example of something that you could you could sell things that are actually NFTs that nobody knows it's an NFT
But they're things that people can use like sound packs or since presets or stuff like that
So, you know providing real value and you know, that does lead to people making money, but it
It meets the needs of the two sides of the marketplace. I think that's the problem that web through music often often has is that
It's only really thinking of the one side of the marketplace, which is the people who want to make money
Yeah, I'm yeah, I've hammered this in a lot words like right now Crip web through music is just like it just feels like the same kind of
I hate using this word and in a sense with like musicians
But like it's simply the same kind of Ponzi where it's just like I'm putting this out hoping people speculate on it
Maybe not even necessarily listening to the music but just hoping to flip it or do this or do that
And it's like I don't think that's the way to grow an audience. I don't think that's really the way crypto is gonna help the industry move forward
I kind of think we put ourselves into a box and there's a lot of musicians that just only build within the bubble of web 3
And it's just like you beat it into their head all you want. They just refuse to use traditional platforms to build their music
I think it's a huge mistake at least right now because we don't have any other answers to it
So yeah, I definitely I definitely agree
Scotty how you been? What do you think?
Sorry, I've been watching a video of people drowning in elevators
Isn't that horrendous man?
That way that just happened. Yeah, I think they drowned but they're basically it was like they like they were filming it's like the video
Was the elevator like suddenly stopping and then you just see water rushing into the bottom and then there's like
Clearly a long time lapse and the next thing you see is like it's just filthy water like up to their necks and they're
One girl's on the phone trying to contact. I guess the cops are who?
Okay, I didn't know that happened
Great. Well that that's good insight. I appreciate that
I saw airplane catch on fire the other day and I'm flying out in two days. That's that makes me feel very good
Maybe it's one of those words like it's already the universe got it out of its system. So you're yeah, okay
Statistically, I'm actually good. Yeah
Nader what there's so much stuff on lenses. It's like there's so many things built, you know in the ecosystem
Like what do what do you guys have music specific going on like this with them in that?
By the way, I'm I'm switching the swing up
Yeah, he's taking a shower right now
Yeah, are you in an elevator? Oh, no
The coffee shop downstairs and back to my office, but um
Yeah, I think like one of the big focuses that we have is
being able to kind of connect creators and
people that have like large audiences and all of these different players when it comes to awareness and like
As well as connecting directly with your audience like how to kind of make all that more seamless and easier to do
So yeah, I think one of the big things that is happening to kind of enable that is we rolled out
A new version of lens a few months ago and we built something into that into that a bit called open action
Which basically allows every single?
Smart contract that exists like period to integrate into lens and what people are now doing is like integrating things like Zora
They're integrating like these interesting like ways to tip
Ways to boost post ways to basically incentivize people they're creating gambling actions
So you can basically like like a post and then you're automatically entered to win like $10 like crazy stuff like that
So it's building like some really interesting
New I would say like not not just interfaces
But new ways to kind of build interfaces because like a lot of these features that are essentially just
open actions or like in the
Past would be almost like a completely new application like someone might build a new app with this one new feature
That's just different than everyone else, but now they're kind of all available
So I think what we're now starting to see is like people starting to build new interfaces new apps that
Surface a lot of these new features and I think we're still like even though we've been around for over a year
I think we're still fairly early in terms of like
Finding out like what are the best interfaces that are gonna work and make all of these things like really possible
So I think it's it's I feel like you guys are like like a proving ground for like there's so much shit going on
Like you guys are like testing every
Possible thing that might work which like it's cool. It's cool to me
Like there's just too much that I can even keep up with it
Like you guys are trying like are allowing people to try everything on the social fly side to see what hits
I think maybe or like what clicks and what people kind of gravitate towards is that kind of like the sentiment a little bit
Yeah, I think that's it. I think that that's about right. I think that
With the current way that a lot of applications are built though
It's challenging for people to build what I would call a quality social graph because
there are just so many people that joined lens early on that were kind of airdrop farming and stuff and
overall like to be quite honest the quality of the of the social graph in general has just been hard to
To keep I would say polish in a way
Even if you look at Twitter like Twitter's a billions of dollars company has been around for like 10 years or more or you
Know 10 15 years honor and they still have problems with bots and stuff like that
Right, like we're talking about the most centralized thing that exists
So this is like a really challenging problem to solve, but I think we've figured out
Like what we think is the solution for that that we're gonna be rolling out over the next few months that will allow
Be able to maintain like really really high-quality social graphs
That combined with all these new features along with like some really high-quality mobile apps that enter that
Surface a lot of these new features. I think it's gonna bring about some really cool apps. That's kind of what I'm excited about
That's dope yeah, it's funny people complain on new social apps about bots
I'm like guys we live on Twitter like you can't comment without like six coins being shelled into your post
Didn't Elon have an idea at one point where there was yeah the crypto charge for post
but then it was held like in an escrow and then
Basically the community decided if it was a bot post and acted as a bounty
so it's like enough people reported it as a bot post they got a portion of
The posting charge and then the whoever bought it lost the money
So they basically was a financial
Disincentivization for botters to put bot post and it was a incentive for people to report bot posts
I would just build a group chat of people and then people I don't like I would just mass report them as bots. I
Feel like that could be exploited. No be fun
Could it work I don't know
How you put the metrics right like like he's giving gold like bots
It's kind of crazy like he's letting to it like bots get Twitter gold. It's really weird
Like there's there's like complete scams under my tweets that are just bad gold check marks
It's the strangest thing like it. I don't know. It's a very weird
Time and I love Twitter. It's my favorite platform, but it's a very weird time in Twitter
Parsley is anything I guess go deep yet. I must say that did you ever get control out?
But you're trying to get control one of your accounts or you're trying to get it little levels of business
I think yeah, we got we have to want to see gold finally. I had to hit it by on Twitter
Yeah, I got my friend in Twitter took care of her help to stay care of it
It just was it was his buggy. It wasn't anything about the account. They just had to push it through
They've got issues with issues with it lately
Yeah, but it finally worked out after a month and a half
Parsley was in all that that drama with his parsley. How are you? How are you doing?
GM GM, how's everyone doing?
Great over here. Just working listening to intelligent people and
I'm humbled by being a speaker in this space everyone's like so technical and
Long-lasting space. You're one of the smarter ones in this space me and parsley work together
Same company one of the company they'll work with we both live in Argentina. So he's like my next-door neighbor
And I think you're probably coming over today. I assumed yes, sir
Yeah, oh roars here too. This is good. Yeah, there's some good people coming up. Oh shit roars shit in the thing ends
No, it didn't okay, I got to ask him some questions when he gets up here rawr. What's up, bro?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what's good, baby, so I requested to speak but I was not
Can you hear me? No, I'm not
You can hear me. Okay. Cool. Yeah. No. No, I was actually requested to speak. I didn't mean to to do so with a
Cheers you don't just because it's okay. It's okay there
Yeah, I'm staring at them at your exit scam that live right now just making sure I might well anyway, so
Good luck. Good luck to me
No, yeah, I like this a lot like I really really like what Amy's building with with rove like I really think that's super important
important, you know, I think it's a cool addition to
Just to me like I used to I was early 20s
I went through my phase where I was going to everything every festival every show I think I think Tyco like 12 times
Like it would have been really cool to have something to be like, no, I like you more than anybody else
Like, you know, I don't know that just seems like a really cool thing
To be building and like I've talked to Amy before that oh
Peeches here that would be like I've even talked to anybody that would be something
I would love to like might put some input on just cuz it seems really really interesting and actually something
Super useful peach is gonna come up here and drop some bombs cuz we just had a we just mean peace
Just talked for like two and a half hours. How are you? Um, I'm still on that fucking high, bro
I'm riding on I'm riding that high we had that we had like the most high convert like not high high but like
Feel good conversation. I think I've ever had
Yeah, that was fucking that was chef's kitchen type shit there, but that was like yeah cook in a meal
Everybody's about to eat kind of territory. Everyone's about to eat. Yeah
Yeah, everyone get excited for what me and peaches cooked up Tim peaches who I'm renting the Airbnb with in London fields
So when I come by the office if you're cool with that, I'd love to ring peach along and Jim as well
when he comes to stay with us how we both are music music people and like, you know and
Jim's a music head peach is you know as a music background. I think it'd be cool just to kind of hang out with the team. I
Was gonna say after our last spaces. I had a little like trip down memory lane and I was looking at old pictures from like
Like I played my first ever gig. I kind of got lucky like I
So I was track of the week on radio one
But I was a kid so I was in detention
When I was being played and I've tweeted a selfie all those in detention and fucking Scott Mills like it did like an impromptu
Interview threw me on Twitter
Through Twitter with me so like and then they liked that and they thought that it was like someone complained
One of the moms complained from the classroom was like he's a bad influence and they liked it
So they were like they offered me Glastonbury and that was my first ever gig was like I'd never played
Anyone before I'll play the BBC stage. You've played Glastonbury peach. What are you every time we talk?
So I had to very quickly I had like four weeks to learn and I'd like it was like two weeks after turn 18
So it was like it was basically my birthday present from the BBC was offered me
to play their stage at Glastonbury and then I had to like
Develop the skills of playing in front of people like immediately because I'd never done it before in my life
And I suppose I don't really like the music I was making at that point. I was making it for the industry
I kind of designed it to get on radio one
Which a lot I think a lot of young people do because there's like a game you can play
If you know what that if you know what they're playing you can play the game and it kind of took away from me that whole like
making music because I hear it like I just hears things in my head and I wanted to hear it for real and
Then I kind of spent the next two years
Distancing myself from that and I would write songs for other people and then I would
Really on my computer in my room. I was making like experimental stuff that like
I thought nobody would ever like and then the next four years of music kind of proved me wrong in a painful way where it was like
Oh, if I'd have just pursued the stuff I loved anyway
That was what people did want to hear but the industry doesn't catch up and the industry's like this this
Devil entity that's like no be the thing that succeeded two years ago
Because that's how we've just made money and it's like but the next thing is something different
The next thing is something the artists are building
But like the A&R don't really understand and I was I was a kid
So I was listening to these A&R and like I had really good managers
but they're not musicians like the musicians are the one that shaped the way and I kind of fell into the trap of like being
too young to know what I had and
Then actually Tim you were one of the people that I would listen to at that at that stage
I think I told you on the last space is like you were kind of I actually bought like a Barring
MIDI committee like the MIDI board to set up like similar to your like life
So that I could manipulate like I was I was trying to do I was trying to tell people that like
You could there was something about electronic music and taking it live
So I hadn't been explored yet and you were doing that and since then Fred again is really kind of pioneered that
He's kind of taken what you were doing in the early stages and he's like playing the machine instruments and stuff live
And that was really what I wanted to do, but I ended up just trading like binary options on Bitcoin instead
Yeah, I went from yeah, I went from managing artists I love and adored to losing all my money on pancake swap
I don't know how we both ended up here, but
Based on our last conversation, I think we're weeding our ways out of it
And it's coming full circle after all these years and meeting Tim and everybody and like even later
Like it feels like this the cycle. It's like people that have been here for so long
It's like can we build something that works and like that we were passionate about before like that
before let's use this is like a better infrastructure for like for like the collective nature of web 3
I think is something that's like like bested community and owning things together
And we've kind of used it for the same things over and over like cycles come we kind of innovate more and more the Ponzi
Side of things and there's so much more we can do and then I want to go
I want to go back into music to be honest. No, I don't really want to be the main character again
I don't think I ever enjoyed that but just making stuff because I love I
Love that I can hear things in my head and that they can be real and I love having that conversation and music with people
Well, like I can do something
I'm good at and there's people that are good at other part
There's like like some of the best producers are the ones that here you play like
40 seconds on the guitar and they're like, you know that that's a song like what you've just done could be a whole
Soundscape and then they take the recording and they put it on a sample pad and they show you like how
It's like it's its own world like the 40 seconds that I just done was like like I worked with
Cam Black with the ones and like he showed me for the first time what like a machine instrument
Can do and I was just in the recording booth
I played like 40 seconds on my telecaster and he was like, let me just show you what you can do with that
So me just playing something I actually enjoy for 40 seconds and you turning that into like this whole sample deck
That's that's basically like a moving instrument now
It's like it's no longer this static piece of recording
It's like every recording is now its own instrument and that that kind of opened my eyes to a lot of things
So I yeah, I love that like that
That's what recruitment talks about is like when you enter the studio
They record everything from beginning to end because like just the smallest little detail can be turned into something huge by somebody else in the room
Just by sparking an idea. I think it was a good potential for that and like that's like, that's what's so cool
Like that's that's the cool part of music
that's what I was excited about when you were talking about like clubs and the nature of like
Conversations and how like we've kind of lost that because we lost that like studio element of music
We people still go to the studio
But it's nothing like what it was 20 years ago because everyone's gone online
We're all emailing each other different stems and it's just turned into this like static
Like emailing back and forth kind of nature of making music which loses that
Conversation that happens in studio and we need like a digital like realization of what it used to be to be standing together
Playing like playing the instrument sampling each other taking it further and being like
Oh, you know if you were to sing these three notes in a different note
Like if you would state these notes differently, that's the hook and it's like I don't know that you lose that when you just got like stems
Online that you're emailing back and forth
Man, I mean this this really really really excites me because this is exactly this is exactly what we're building
We actually have I mean, I don't know when but I think in the next few days. We're gonna be
Be able to be able to record layers directly into into a club so somebody could lay down some drums
share that as a message and then you can
Record tapes directly over that and send it back in the message
So yeah, the con the conversational creativity thing is is really
And I think this idea, you know, I've been talking with
members of the team around
What you know, how do we talk about what we're doing in a really simple way and it's it's almost like it's a social sampler
But and I love Peter what you were saying about
You know someone steps into a studio plays 40 seconds of guitar that gets recorded chopped up and laid out on beat pads
You know it kind of in real time as part of a musical conversation
Comes up with an interpretation of that
Shares it back to the original person who actually played the recording in the first place and then they're like, oh
Okay, like that gives me an idea and then how about this?
My best hooks was like that well
Yeah, it's like just just like the catchy stuff or whatever like stuff
I connected with it evolved what I would what I thought it was like I'd come up with something
I'd read like a really heartfelt like 40 seconds and I couldn't take it further
That's the thing is you kind of get really attached to those kind of like those moments that you've made and some it takes
Somebody else hearing it connecting with it and being like here's where I feel it goes next and then you hear it in
A completely different way and all of a sudden there's the words like there's the lyrics
There's there's the melody that came on the top of it and it took them hearing me
Putting it on the pads reshaping it me hearing what they heard and then going. Oh that now sounds like a song to me
Before it was just 40 seconds of guitar that I loved and now it's a song and I hear the song because you've done that
And it's only when other people start adding like that what they hear what they're hearing from what you said in music
It's only in that conversation that you can take it further
No, man, I mean I honestly I cannot wait to meet you in person and I think we're gonna have some late nights
I'm so stoked you yeah, you might have to come to the Airbnb. We booked a really awesome
Everybody or not me and feature both banned from Airbnb
So we had to book through something else
It's completely unfair. I had eight years of five-star reviews and then the last lady lied
so I'm completely unfair and I will be reporting to the manager, but
We got a really nice place at London Field
So I think it would be able to chill a lot and just kind of like cook like the first artist
I ever worked with case Arnold is gonna be coming and he is like a
Multifaceted music he plays every instrument and he's just incredibly talented a beautiful writer singer songwriter
You guys are gonna vibe mega hard peach and Tim and Jim like all y'all are gonna like this vibe
I'm so excited for this trip. I just wish I could skip the LA port, but it's fun
La will be good. I'm going to it's for networking. So it'll be good
But I'm really excited to come out to London which if you asked me four years ago
I didn't think I would ever say I'm excited to come back to London
but I'm really excited now because last trip was so fun and like I went to an area that was really fun and that cool fucking
People and now it's gonna be just like like 10x that I'm super super excited to jam with you guys just IRL
Yeah, bro, I'm excited to like to have some musical conversations
Cuz like like I said Tim I used to watch your like I used to watch your Ted talks
I used to watch like your live sessions on YouTube and that was something when I was like
I was a uni and I was like I was really disenfranchised with the music industry because the A&R
They didn't see this they didn't see that you could like you could make electronic music
expressive and I was trying to tell them and like they just didn't understand it and I said I had to walk away from it and
Disconnected from the people the friends that I've made and the like and all I really had was like I was making music
For me at that point and then it was like okay
I can see this person's taking it forward and that gave me a lot of hoping like okay
Maybe that maybe there is hope that people are gonna take forward the next phase of like electronic music
And I'm glad that they I'm glad that it did happen. I do feel like it has slowly happened
But it's like isolated people. It's like individuals rather than like this conversation and to me it happened
Kind of sporadically like dotted and it took a while for somebody like fred again
To make it to the forefront and be like this live electric kind of more than a dj more than just djing other people's songs
But like djing your own samples and like live playing samples and stuff like that
So yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, you were you were somebody I was watching back in the day, bro
Um, and I fucking I looked up to you a lot. So i'm very i'm excited to meet you
Well feelings mutual and it's uh, yeah, it's a good thanks for the ego stroke. It's nice
I'm like i'm 45 now and I sort of feel that those days are
Those those those days are like past you know, i've got some ideas about
Um what I would do if I was going to come back to I guess putting crew making music
Um in pole position in my life because it I mean running a company is now at pole position
Um, yeah, I think it's more about like taking the lessons that you like it's like building for the people that you like
Like what we know we would have wanted like i'm kind of the same and it's like
I was I maybe went about it. I was too young and I want to build things
I want to be part of things and I want to like
Like create infrastructures and all of that kind of stuff
For like the person that I was at the time when I was most creative
Like when I was most creative if i'd have had the tools
I'd have like just made music that I loved and i'd have done it with the right people
And instead I had to navigate this world of like
This this the anr trying to put me in with the wrong people that they thought were the people I should be writing with
Instead of me being able to find communities around me
That were like that like the conversation that could have taken what I wanted to do further
And then I ended up like okay. I ended up for like three years. It was like
It was a stem email conversation people like around the world
It was like we were sending emails to each other with stems on it's like four hours between anybody editing anything
And you lose that creative flow
And it's like what you're building is a good example of it that
What we've learned what you've learned especially is like you can give that to the next generation
You can build something that empowers them and then from that
It's like you give birth to like probably if everything goes right like thousands of
Like the next wave of of songs like this kind of songs that would never have existed without the infrastructure
So like that's kind of a deeper calling at this point
At least that's how I see it
Yeah, i'm still bullish on peach making music i'm still going to convince them to
To cook something up at some point what we'll do bro
We'll turn you into a music like you can be the person that releases the music and like pretends that you're the one that
Made it like will be a star
So it'll matter so i'll be it'll be rio will be the spotify artist and then okay. Yeah. Yeah
It's I mean, it's quite a salient point. It's like the role. Um, I love people what you were saying about
Um, you know people assuming different roles and like i'm good at this thing you're good at that thing
That person's good at something else
And I think we've we've kind of missed
Uh, you know the music the music industry used to be very kind of composable in in that sense. It was it was quite
You know you'd have people who were good at making music you'd have good mix engineers you'd have good mastery engineers and then you'd have
You know labels and agents and promoters and um all
um all those kinds of people and nowadays
You that is very much the preserve of the people who
And it's quite and it's quite an all or nothing industry these days
and I think there's something exciting about
friction because actually
If you're you know, if you're a good agent or you're a good producer or you're a good sound designer or you're um a good
Anar, um, you know the the actual core of what you do
Just comes so naturally to you that that it almost it doesn't really even cost any energy to do it
And I think where the huge inefficiencies with the the industry these days are more around the sort of coordination
so if it was you know, and this is very much a problem I want we want to solve with with clubs with endless and clubs is
Make it easy for people who are just um
Naturally good at something to helicopter into a context where they can just do what they're naturally good at
And also get you know, also honor the the people who promote things
and I think you know, that's that's where with marketplaces where you can say create a sound pack and then
um issue that sound pack is an open edition or maybe a
limited edition of like there's a hundred of that sound pack or whatever and
You can then sell it in a shop. Um, but then
People can take you could nominate say a 10 fee for anybody who kind of goes and sells that elsewhere
so so people who actually do the hard work promoting can can get a
Can get a cut things as well. So I mean that yeah, that's I think
both let people do what they're good at really easily and
The the the yeah, I guess the revenue that is created through delivering value is something that's very exciting to me
Yeah, we haven't had it since blockchain like that's that's that's a blockchain kind of solved for us, right?
Like that it was kind of almost impossible
I mean it was at least hard to keep track of
Okay, so like back back in back in my day. Uh, god, I sound so old like but back in my day
But when I was because I just went about it so young like I started when I was like 15
And I never well at 14 actually and and I never really found the right people around me. There was like a load of
Extractors there was like so I went in and it was deep deep pop and I gradually found my way to like
Indie pop so it was always pop
It was always that they wanted me to be like a pop star
And it never really kind of and and those kind of people never really understood the kind of
How somebody like bonneville could be like not pop at all and yet be super popular
And it's like for that you would need really creative people really creative promoters around him
And ultimately he made communion mute. Was it communion or was that no that was
That it was jaguar mar. It was jaguar mar that he made with like the creative people
He found in the industry that like actually understood the vision and it's like
That that that's really what I wanted and I just went about it too early
It was a bit naive and too much of a kid too much easy to take advantage of whatever and like
So I was always I was the one that was in the room and I could just write songs like that like just
Immediately I could turn anything into a kind of a hook or like like something creative on the guitar on the keyboard
And I always had a bigger vision for it and the people around me would always reduce it
It was always reduction rather than expansion and I was looking for like
Expansion collaborators that would make it something bigger and something more like a soundscape
And instead I was in the room with people that would turn it more into a simple song like a pop song that could go
on the radio designed for radio one
And then the producers would always be that and then
The promoters were always like the kind of promoters that knew how to get you
Very young fans because they're the ones that like get you to get you like in the in the
Like the big contracts always go to the people with the youngest fans because they have like the longest time to sell
Shit to kids and whatever and the longest like
How to put this like kids go crazy. They're the ones that scream at concerts. They're the ones that like storm places
And and like so it was always that kind of way of looking at things and I always wanted people that aligned with
And I could never find them and then I would look online and i'd see people doing what I wanted to do
And it did it may be bitter at the time because they were always that it was like some
Alignment of luck that they were they were physically
Near people that like understood things with them that were hustling
And they got somewhat lucky and that they found they were either grew up near those people
Or they found the right people or the right people found them
And I just couldn't seem to get that and I always thought there was something missing online that like
I could probably connect with like there's there's like billions of us
Well, there's literally like billions of humans out there. There's like hundreds of millions of people
Do it like capable of stuff and then there's tens of millions of people doing it
And yet I couldn't seem to find the people
To put around me to promote my music that didn't just want to put me at like
On like the pop circus and they didn't want to put me on like the pop
Um even glastonbury to be honest, it's like yeah, it's a rock festival
But it's you have you had to to get there
You have to you had to be like on the radio and it had to be like a radio way of like
Plugging and promoting and I just didn't connect with that and then
Ultimately, it led to me leaving the industry
But then the first year that I left I wrote like 300 songs
And I think to not to be honest a lot of them were probably better than anything I released that got big
Or like that I sold to other people. We're gonna release every one of those
Okay, maybe they will be heard then but like
They'll never my whole attitude
They're like like kind of a little bitterness that came was like
Those will never be heard because I could never get the right people around me
And i'm not going to go and do things like i'm not going to go and learn promoting or plugging
I'm not gonna i'm not gonna spend five years becoming like an industry level producer
And that'll ultimately i'll lose some of what I am good at and and then
I would work with producers who were like they were the same in production and they didn't want to go off and like try and
Be a songwriter that wasn't there for today me and them in a room together could like
Absolutely churn out songs because I could write them. They could make them sound good
They could like produce them to like a radio quality level
And that was that's like a machine when you find when you find
The right people around you it turns into like a machine
And I just i'm like my machine was designed for the wrong reasons and I never found the people to design
The kind of machine i'd like to be part of which was like super creative like expansive
Like musical conversation instead of reductive like there's there's two forms of writing one's expansive one's reductive
one is you take something and develop it further and the other is you take something and you reduce it down to just its core catchiness and
Then you kind of repeat that over and over and I fell into the wrong cat
I think I fell it like into the wrong crowds to be honest
They always wanted to reduce what I was doing into like well
Here's a hook and let's repeat that like five times. Oh, and you've wrote you've wrote loads of different verses
Let's just take two of them. Now. We've got a song and it's like that that to me was uh, fucking boring
But yeah, not to do I think I think peach's time is coming
You're so young dude. Like I think your your your your peak is is it's coming. I think it's gonna be peach time soon
We might convince you to do some music while we're out there
Tim do y'all have a studio in the office or is we're gonna have to like
Hijack images, we've got some we've got some kit
Um, I I wouldn't really call it a studio, but it can be assembled into a studio
Um, and we've got we've got a sound system. I doubt my sub I blew the sub. Well, I didn't I didn't know it just blew up
Well, the artist i'm ringing is actually bringing like almost a full studio setup or
Pay for some extra bags. So we'll have some cool stuff with us
Um, so yeah, we're gonna jam out. I think it's gonna be super fun
I wanted to ask jim because jim you you're like kind of into like the rave like
Idiom like electronic scene. Like what are your feelings on it? We're gonna wrap up in like probably four minutes
But like yeah, I was gonna say I need to I need to head quite soon
But um, yeah, I just want to hear what jim kind of thought of like because you got a lot of shows and like
Wait, like what are your thoughts on the on the state of it right now?
Yeah, it's like you enjoy you enjoy going to shows. So it's like you yeah
Um, well, I just kind of think it's taking like it's kind of at the forefront of
Music culture at the minute and I think it's because people are seeking that community
You know like i'll go to a techno rave and everyone's so respectful
Um, there's never any trouble you you you have your space and people are there for the for the music and the the experience
Um, you know, I love it for that hit one while i'm there you need to find this fine one while i'm there
Well, there's lots of there's lots of stuff going on february march at drum sheds
Oh, we're going. Oh, we're going raving for sure. I'm seeing um, i'm seeing sarah landry soon
E1 which is going to be pretty intense
Maybe we'll get tim to come right with us too. That might be fun
Um, but yeah, I guess let's wrap it here. We had a really good conversation today. I appreciate it
Jim and peach to come on regularly because I just think we've we formed a fun team to chat with here
Um, but the the space is going forward will be hosted here. Tim will be here every week
Um, i'm gonna just go follow endless
Uh fm followed tim a lot of new products rolling out and what even in the next few days super excited
Um just to come meet the team. I know some of them are in here right now
So uh jim tim peach scotty everyone that was here. I appreciate you guys coming hanging out
Always a pleasure. Yeah, man. Thank you. Thank you so much. And yeah, thanks everyone for swinging by. Um, just love the conversation
It gives me energy. You've given me energy
Oh, we're getting we're getting good energy in london. We'll see you soon guys
All right, peace out. Bye