I know, lonely under these sheets Cause you've tried to make yourself seem
Through fields of green, but it's overgrown If it all came true, when you've seen it all through
You look back at the footprints on the path Where does that lead you?
Can you feel, before you start to kneel We were so less free, when you've seen it all through
Who do you have left, when it all goes back?
Who was by your side, when the fires were skies And it rings in your head?
Did you leave your mouth? Can they catch your scars? Did you train your toes?
Was it beautiful, and a life in the dark? Can you feel, before you start to kneel
We were so less free, when you've seen it all through
Can you feel, before you start to kneel
Good morning, Tim, what's up? Good morning, how are you?
Good, man, so much stuff going on, it's like, I can feel that kind of, that sort of hype-y feeling
Where you're kicking off a bunch of stuff, and it's, you put waves of energy out there
And like, waves of energy are coming back, and it's getting really exciting, so I'm good
That's awesome, man, yeah, I'm pretty tired, I've been doing a lot the last two weeks
And this last bit of travel's kind of wrecked me a little bit, so I'm a little bit, just kind of like, hurting still
But yeah, I'm just using this week to recover, and then get to London for two weeks
And have some fun, before we start this tour, so things are great, I'm just very tired
And yeah, I escaped the LA flood just in time, like the day that it started flooding there, I got out
Other than that, though, I'm good, tired a little bit, but I'm super excited to hear what someone messaged me and said
You sound so sleepy, yeah, I am sleepy
I am super excited to hear any updates you might have on your end, just right off the bat from Inlist himself
I know Peach is going to join us, I think Jim's going to join us here soon
But yeah, if there's anything cool you want to share, go for it
Annoyingly, it's all stuff like
It can't, okay, well, you can share it with me in a couple weeks
Which is, I mean, I find it so annoying when people hop on spaces and stuff like that
And say like, oh man, I'm so excited, there's so much amazing stuff happening
I'll tell you about it, but yeah, sorry, I just
No, that's my favourite thing to do on spaces
Me and Peach did that all day yesterday, we were just like
In our own world talking about stuff we can't tell anybody about
I'm actually super excited to fill you in on some of the stuff me and Peach have going on, too
Like, it's really awesome that he and I decided to get a place together for two weeks
Because a lot of stuff is blossomed just from conversations both about Inlist
And just, in general, us being together there for two weeks
We've had like multiple hour-long conversations and kind of come up with something really cool
But also we're excited to get to y'all's office and just kind of hang out
And I think Peach committed to wanting to make a track while he's out there
And he was like, I was like, let's see if we can get Peach and Tim to do something
Maybe make something fun just for the people, but yeah
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that there's going to be some, like, game-changing new features in clubs
That might actually be dropping the time that you guys are in town
Yeah, I think things might actually work out pretty nicely on that front
And man, I don't get enough excuses to make music
Like, my job is facilitating other people making music these days
And so on the rare occasions I get to actually open my door and get some toys out and start making sounds
Yeah, that sounds super fun
Yeah, I hope we're able to create stuff
Because Peach said he's been itching since joining these spaces
He might still probably be asleep right now
But since joining these spaces, he said he's been getting the itch to kind of, like, make music again
Especially with, like, the product you guys have
I don't know if he's gotten on it and tested it out or not
But he just has the itch to make music
So we're kind of using this two weeks to, like, talk business, hang out with friends
And then also I think he's going to try and make some music while we're out there
Reinspired Peach after, like, seven years of him not making any music
Excellent, well that's good, yeah
That's what we're here for
And, I mean, you know, there's a lot of, like, jaded
There's a lot of stuff to get jaded about in the music industry, I think
And maybe, I guess one of my goals is to
Create things and point to more optimistic futures that people don't have to be jaded about
And can, well I guess ultimately feel like your creativity will have an impact
And I think this is, like, the biggest thing that is just really hard with the entire music industry
And, like, in that I include people who, you know, mess around with GarageBand on weekends
Like, everyone in the world who likes to be creative with music needs new ways to make impact with that creativity
Because the channels that you get to make an impact on are getting more and more reserved for the locked into people who already have audiences
Yeah, so when you say more optimistic tools, what do you mean by that?
Less intimidating stuff for newer producers, or just lower barriers of entry of collaboration, or what do you mean by that specifically?
Yeah, well, and I think there's a number of different things
Tools that are easier to use, definitely, that's a big one that's very high on our list of things
I guess that's probably been the core of what we've built so far with Endless, is those tools that are really fun and really accessible
But then also, you know, kind of revisiting the formats, because, you know, the song format, the way that we expect to consume music on Spotify
There's a high bar, like, it's a really high level to achieve, it's like a super pro level
And there are, you know, there are other, kind of, simpler, more bite-sized formats, you know, short form
Imagine, like, a music equivalent of, like, what TikTok is to YouTube, you know, we can...
Smaller formats that aren't, that you can do something good, and that makes an impact, and you can do that in an hour
Yeah, I mean, I almost leave it, like, akin to, similar to what, like, the iPhone, like, the newer iPhones and a lot of the attachments, like
With lenses and things like that have done to, like, filming music videos
It's almost made it way less intimidating, and you can make, like, I'm such an iPhone Maxi when it comes to filming shows
And filming, like, videos and content for social media
Like, even podcasting, like, just the technology we have now has made it so much more accessible to everybody
And people overthink it and think you need all this complicated gear and, like, cameras and boards you've never used before
And it's like, no, you just need, like, an iPhone, some AirPods, and maybe a lens, and, like, that's about it
Yeah, totally, yeah, it's...
So, yeah, it's like making the tools simple, making the formats just easier to make formats
And I think the other big piece of it is, like, new distribution models
Because I think...well, I mean, the entire music industry, all the distribution is broadcast-based
Like, there's not...there aren't spaces where you can share a track with a few mates
And they can really give you, you know, their undivided attention and their feedback, and you feel seen
Like, the only way to get seen as a musician nowadays is to grind, grind, grind on TikTok or Insta or Twitter or wherever it is
To build this audience, and I think that there are ways...because ultimately, I mean, people really enjoy the creative act
But it's also really important for people's creativity to be witnessed
And I think we've, you know, kind of the music industry has collectively got into this mindset that being witnessed means, like, having 10,000-plus followers on the social
And having, like, you know, 100,000 monthly streams or whatever
And it's just, like, I'm not...I don't think that's the case
I think...and, you know, we've noticed this with a lot of people on Endless
Is that actually a lot of those are just really pleased to find five people who dig their vibe and will listen to their music and engage with it deeply
And that's the kind of witnessing that I think...you know, there are ways to kind of scale that intimacy
Like, what if a billion people around the world each had five friends who cared about them, gave them the time of day, listened to the stuff they were doing
And gave them a sense of purpose in their creativity
Like, that I think is big, and the music industry is not set up for that
I mean, yeah, no, it's set up...well, I guess less so now, but, like, it was set up for the longest time as, like, a zero or one game
Where you were either making the living off of it, or you were making zero dollars off of it
And I think we're slowly moving away from that
There's a bit more of a spectrum, but it's still a bit...it's still a bit skewed in one direction
And I think something like this flattens that curve a bit to where it can become more of a spectrum
And there's something to be said about being able to get feedback and create in the same exact space in real time
Like, it's really difficult to do that
Like, one of the artists I work with has been trying to get me to come over to his house studio for the last week
And I've just kind of felt shitty, so I haven't gone
But, like, you know, he's sending me songs and all this, but, like, there's something to be said about sitting in the room while songs are being made
And while that's not exactly what's going on in Endless, it's pretty much what we're going to get in the digital age
Is, like, you sitting there live while things are being made
And being able to give feedback on them, or add to them, or suggest reduction to them in real time
And I think that's what excited me the most about it
Was the fact that, you know, if I was a producer, I could be in there with you or Imogen
Or whoever is, like, online at the time and in their club
And be making suggestions to something that, you know, people are making
And they actually, like, check it out and say, like, yeah, this is fucking dope
Like, I'm going to add this in there
Or even just to comment on it, or, like, oh, I like this part of it
Like, that's what excited me the most
Because, like, musicians, people underrate how much, like, feedback from some of your favorite people
Or people you respect in the industry
Like, how much that means to an upcoming artist
And I think a lot of positive energy is going to come from this
Even if it's not directly monetary
Like, I think this type of collaboration is going to inspire a lot of musicians to continue to create and make music
Even if it's just off a comment or getting, like, a beat loop in somebody's room with you
So that's kind of what, like, initially I, like, was like, yes, I have to be involved in this somehow
So, yeah, I don't know how much you thought about that
But that's what, like I said, has excited me the most
Yeah, well, I think that the creation process being somehow socialized is just something
I mean, like, the data that we've seen on Endless with the existing apps
Like, people who engage with the social, with the kind of multiplayer social aspect
Who, like, share a riff to the feed and participate in the community
People who do that, like, their day 30 retention is 42%, which is, like, I mean, that is off the charts
And so we know that that really core experience is, you know, it's very, very, it's very, very sticky
But it's also, it's not, you know, it's not just for people who only want to be heard by five people
I think, you know, so we, like, when we met at Imogen's house
And she was, like, taking us all down in these kind of, like, different sittings down to her basement studio
And playing her latest song, which still isn't out yet, which is just fucking amazing
It's really, really amazing
Oh, my God, it's like, I'm not sure what the world is gonna know has hit it
Do you know, like, what stage she's at? Is she still finishing it, or is she...
I really don't, I haven't asked her, we've been talking about other stuff, but...
Yeah, I spoke to her last night, and I thought, yeah, she's still finishing it with, of course, Imogen
You played it to me a few months ago, and it was finished
I don't know what you think finished means, but it sounded pretty amazing
But, you know, that experience, like, being there with, like, a group of us
It was, like, ten of us in a studio listening to that track
And giving, yeah, making comments on it, giving feedback about it
Like, that is also really important for really big artists like Imogen as well
It's such an important, you know, to have that in a circle of people who will be around
And, like, really give you the time of day
So it's like that, and I think that setting, I guess, where it's like intimate social setting
Around creativity, that is really, really missing
You know, Imogen spent, you know, 99% of the time looking at that song, she was on her own
In her studio, and, you know, occasionally playing things to people
But, you know, what if it was really easy for anyone
From somebody who's literally just started laying down their first, like, kick and snare pattern today
Right the way up to someone like Imogen to have, like, intimate social spaces
Where there's just people hanging around who are witnessing what you're doing
And it's such a powerful force for, like, helping people move forward with their creativity
Helping them feel seen, helping them feel part of something
Yeah, I'm excited to see what she does with the app at some point in the future
I know she's mentioned she's changing the way she's making music after this
In a big way, like, after this song, which is exciting
But I'm hoping, I'm hoping when I get there
I haven't talked to her too much about, like, what plans are gonna be
But I'm gonna be there for two weeks
I might try and see if the Roundhouse is available for a couple days
Just to have some fun with some easy friends
But, yeah, I'm excited just to kind of see where she's at in that process
And have her meet some people
It's funny, she DM'd Monrovia on Instagram the other day
Because they met, like, he came over to the house for a night
She went to one of his shows
And then invited him back to the house
And, you know, they got along, you know, very well
But I don't know that she really, like, checked his music out afterwards
I mean, she was blown away by the show, but she sent him a long message
Just, like, saying that she just listened to his music a lot more
And showed it to some people
And, yeah, just really, really liked it
And that was really cool to see
So, I'm excited to get back and talk to her about some Mon stuff
And just kind of connect and see where she's at in her process
Because, yeah, I don't know, like I told you before
Like, coming back to London for that week
Was really a big boost of energy for me
And I think I'm kind of craving that again
And just being around you guys was a big part of that
I'm excited for Peach, too
Because Peach is one of those guys where we'll get on the phone for, like, a few hours
And just feel like we can take over the world
And we're about to, like, live together for two weeks
So, I'm very, very excited
I think he's, like, I said, still asleep
Yeah, I had a bit back and forth with him on the telegram
And I think he sounded like he had some various other things going on
He has quite a bit going on
Oh, Peach just messaged me
Anyway, but, yeah, no, he has a lot going on
Oh, there he is, Mr. Peach
He has a lot going on that he and I both riffed on in spaces yesterday about
That I'm not allowed to talk about either
We'll explain it all to you once we're in London
What's up? It's been a lower energy space today because I am, like...
I don't know if I'm sick or I'm just, like, recovering from travels
But I just feel not myself today
Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that
I'm just glad there's some peace
He's turning down from the high-energy coil that we had
You just tumbled at the other side of it, friend
Yeah, you just got to keep pushing
But, yeah, we have had some good combo around
There's some really cool features that Tim said are going to be dropping for endless
While we're in London, which is exciting
And I pretty much was like, hey, I think we should all get together
And we should hear some Tim and Peach music
Yeah, we should maybe even do, like...
I mean, let's warm up into it
But if we could do a spaces where we can, like, demo some of the features, maybe
And maybe even make some music live
I mean, that's what I used to love, like, watching your videos for, bro, was the live expression of it
It's getting closer, it's getting closer
When me and Tim are going to be in the same room
Yeah, we'll do a Twit space for, like, one single
There will all be pancakes
We can do it from the endless account even
And just, like, do something fun
And I don't know, we can do whatever we want to do
Because you can livestream here on Twitter pretty easily now
Or we can just make, like, a fun video and just, like, livestream it somewhere
And I don't know, we'll figure some out
Yeah, I mean, that's actually...
We're putting together some videos, basically
We're going to do a bit of a kind of, like, mini roadmap
And we've been, like, fairly...
We've been fairly quiet on socials and the mailing list
And in our Discord for the last month or so
And then, you know, I had some family stuff and da-da-da-da
But, yeah, so we're just planning to...
We're going to be specking out a bunch of videos to shoot
Maybe we could even, like...
Because we've got all the kit, we've got all the video lights
The DSLR, et cetera, at the office
So maybe we could, like, shoot some goofy videos
That's what it's called now
It could be, like, you...
Because I'm not really...
I mean, I've goofed around on the Inless iPad app
But, like, it could even be fun stuff with, like...
You and Pete's trying to teach me how to make something out of something
Hey, that's a really cool idea, yeah
Just, like, something fun like that, like...
Or we could use, like, the Inless...
Maybe I'll start, like, a Pancakes Club or something
Pancakes Club, Pancakes Club
Yeah, like, I'll just go to Pancakes Club
Just where, like, my artist friends can come and create
Just, like, do fun stuff in there
I think it'd be a fun mini project
I used to do this with my friends, where, like...
Even the ones that, like, just had really good taste
But didn't necessarily feel the incline of being an artist
It was like, let's turn them into artists
So maybe let's get all your music friends in one club
It's like a half-joking project
Where we try and turn pancakes into an artist
And you just send us, like, clips of you doing dumb shit
And we all just try and turn that into music
I'll just send you guys, like...
A whole bunch of loops over and over again
And you're like, let's just see if we can make this sound like anything worth anything
I've got a name for this project
I'll put out, like, a five-track EP of, like...
Random shit I've, like, pushed buttons on
And then other people in my club have, like, turned into something worth putting out
And that'll be super fun, I think
It's always those fun little projects where people...
I used to take things too seriously sometimes in the studio
And it was always when we stepped back and, like, started having fun
And just doing things that were, like...
The purpose of this isn't to get on the radio
And that was, like, when the best music was made
I think a lot of the best beats come from that as well
Like, that's how you push things in new directions
You stop thinking about things so seriously
And you just start having fun with people
So, yeah, let's fucking do it, bro
I mean, yeah, Rick Rubin's an echo of that
Where he just says, like...
Like, the best music gets made when you walk in
Not thinking about, like, this has to get X album sales
Or the radio's gonna like this or anything
As soon as that kind of leaks into your mind
It changes the ability to push your creativity in a direction
That you wouldn't otherwise go
And sometimes it turns out fucking amazing
And chart tops and orange
Sometimes it's just, like, it's only for a certain group of people
But, like, most of the time that's when the best music gets made
What other features that we had, like, any...
Is it that we're teasing features?
Or is there anything that I've missed in, like, specifics?
So he started it off being like...
And he said there's so much stuff going on
And then, like, we started off with him being like
There's so much exciting stuff going on
And I was like, what can we share?
So, pretty fucking easy with yesterday, Pete
I hate to be that guy who's just like
Oh, my God, there's so much amazing stuff going on
But I can't talk about it
Well, but basically, yeah, we're...
We're specing out some videos
That we're basically going to lay out this kind of mini roadmap for the next month
With these three key features that we're going to be dropping
As part of clubs, which I'm really excited about
The team's really excited about
And we just want to kind of, like, save that up a little bit
We want to present it and package it
And make sure that, you know, we get all the messages out on the socials
And we get it out to our mailing list and all of that stuff
I'm just, like, saving up the impact for the right time
Yeah, I can't wait till me and Pete get there
And get a little bit of the alpha leak
And maybe we can help you with some of the...
Some of the distribution as far as, like, when things drop
I mean, I'm definitely super happy to share stuff on my channels
And I'm sure Pete will be too, but...
Yeah, I mean, I want to use it
I want to use it and see, like...
Because, like, that's just natural distribution
It's not even so that you can share the project
And so I can share my own stuff on it
And share the things I'm doing on the project
That's, like, the most natural distribution and exposure possible
So, like, I want to try it out
Yeah, to your point, I mean, that is exactly
What these features that we're dropping are
They're exactly for what you just talked about
The natural exposure, natural distribution
And, like, inbuilt incentives that are, like...
Like, they lean on how people already want to...
I had this really deep discussion when I was, like, 15
And it always stuck with me about how...
Because back in the day, people used to share music on their Facebook
They'd share, like, YouTube videos and all these different, like...
The things that the sticker would come up when you shared it
And it wasn't that people wanted you to listen to the music
It was that people wanted you to associate that music with them
People do things in this veiled way for self-interest
And the most natural exposure is when people can share things
And it's, like, look at the stuff that I'm doing
Or look at the way that I listen to music
And that really stuck with me for, like, natural distribution and natural exposure
And projects like this...
It is going to be about how people can use it to show off their own kind of...
And what the part they've played in things, like, how early they are to people
And their own work, like, their own kind of part in the music that's going on
And for me it's, like, if you can have a natural exposure tool
That, like, I can make something cool that other people can, like, mess with
Or I can have done something cool with something else somebody else has made
It's, like, if I can show that off
It shows the platform off
But the incentive for me is to show off
The incentive for me is to be, like, look how cool I am
Look how cool the music I can make is
Which is the adult incentive
I mean, I call it tribal signalling
You want to say, like, yeah
And, like, I hereby associate myself with this aesthetic
Like, either as an actual producer
Or just as a sort of, like, participant
Like, someone who is there
And, like, yeah, that's why I'm really excited for this club's format
Because I think where, like, an algorithm-driven world leaves us
You can't, like, tribal...
The tribes that you want to signal that you're part of
Because they're just, like, consistently being kind of low-key-rugged by the algorithm
So the world inevitably ends up coming together around, like, moments
So, yeah, it's like quicksand
Like, you're constantly being rugged
And so I think, you know, to explicitly make places where, like, yeah
This is, like, the lo-fi hip-hop tribe
This is the vaporwave tribe
You know, the Manchester tribe
No, that's super exciting
I can't wait to see what kind of, like...
I'm curious to see what kind of sharing features, like, two external platforms outside of the platform you guys end up implementing
Because I think that'll be a big thing is, like, how can you share something to your Twitter that you've done on Endless
Or clubs that kind of funnels people back into it
That kind of stuff will be super exciting
Because we've seen, like...
Peach is, like, the master discord builder
Like, he's done that in the past
And he's, like, really good at that
And I think there's just certain nuances to, like, how you can...
Like, that's not who I am
Like, I'm a different type of marketer
So, yeah, I'm interested in, like, exactly how there's gonna be ways to funnel people back to, like, hey, this is what I'm doing
And where I'm putting my music
Because I think that's gonna be really important as you get the bigger producers on
And then they're able to share to their other socials, like, what they're doing on the product
Yeah, I mean, we've got some ideas around that
I mean, there's so many different things to do
I mean, like, the kind of obvious one is exporting some kind of video
You know, like, portrait video that is 30 to 40 seconds long
That lives on, you know, can live on TikTok or TikTok YouTube shorts or reels
We've, like, tried a few things
I mean, there is kind of something like that that kind of works like that in the app
But it's quite hard to get stuff like that right
Well, certainly, like, the front-runner
Right now, in terms of, like, getting exposure to what's happening inside-endless, outside-endless
Is some kind of Discord bot
But I can't really kind of explain why or how that'll work without...
Yeah, without spilling the beans on what we're going to spill the beans on next week
But that would kind of make sense
Because, you know, really, like, our go-to-market strategy, certainly for the next year or so
Is to go out to all these music communities
And, you know, there's a lot of them on Discord
There's, you know, thousands of music communities on Discord
I can't wait till you just open it up
And, like, we'll talk about the marketing side when I get there
But, like, when you tell me, like, okay, the project or the product is in a state that we're ready to onboard, like, 100,000 people
And we can outreach to these, like, big communities
That's when it's going to get fun
Because it just takes, like, one or two of those big community leaders to switch over
And you're just going to have just an avalanche of people coming over
Because it's going to be so obvious of how much easier it is to use, in my opinion
And, yeah, I think these three key features that we're going to be shipping in the next month
I think they'll get us...
Yeah, they might even get us over that tipping point
I mean, my general experience has been that
Once you actually build a feature and ship a feature
There's still... even after you've shipped... even if it does what you... what everyone said they wanted it to do
And what you think it ought to do
You always learn new stuff when you ship it
And it's just like, oh, yeah, we need to tweak that
You know, we need to, like, change design a bit
But, yeah, I mean, I think we're not far from the point where there's going to be really obvious reasons
Why you should use clubs rather than Discord, if you've got...
Yeah, I like that discussion about, like...
Like, I can't remember which founders had that discussion
But I think it sums down to this sentence of
The purpose of a system is how people use it
Well, I think that's how they word it, it's something along those lines
And it's like, as a founder, there's a load of reasons why you think it's going to be used
And all of them are important to building into the reason why, eventually, when you get traction
It's going to be first, like, the community's going to find their use
And that's the function of the thing
In a way, you could say that original Facebook, like, as much as it was, like, the... they had their...
And Zuckerberg speaks about this as well, the whole, like, you can't 80-20 everything
So that you onboard all the right people
And then, ultimately, they find that use that's, like, the 80% of things come from 20% of the function
And it's, like, for Facebook, it was... it was relationship statuses
It was, like, oh, yeah, you can see all these things about people's classes and whatever
But it was, like, ultimately, its first real traction was in seeing the people around you at university and colleges
That were in relationships, who's single, who's seeing who, all of that kind of thing
And then, from there, they grew
And it's the same with most things
Most apps are, like, we as the builders and you as the founder
All of the things that you think it can be used for, they're important
And they give it this breadth of, like, function
And then there's going to be something that's, like, that becomes the function of the thing in use
Like, and the... yeah, boils back down to the purpose of a system is what it does
So it's, like, what do people actually use it for
So it's, like, you build it in this way
And then people will use it specifically for one thing
And I think... I could speculate
I think this is going to be the way that producer groups, like, incubate and accelerate artists
And then I think another way is that this is a way that grassroots artists are going to interact with their fanbases
And form new forms of collaboration instead of looking upwards in the industry
And, like, looking at, like, producers that cost 20 grand to do an EP
They can look at the people around them that, like, everyone's got these skills now
So if I'm an artist that's got this exposure and I've got this grassroots fan base
These people are going to want to build with me
I think it's... I can also speculate that, like, this is where people that are, like, building in the same genre
They're going to form groups around the genre
And they'll find, like, they'll build sample packs together
But ultimately, which one is the thing that, like, this is the function of the system
It's kind of up to how people use it
And that initial, like, traction with that use case
So I think there's a lot that you could speculate would be that
But it's in building it, distributing it, getting people on there
And then you find it, and then you kind of build around that, the thing that people use it for mostly
Yeah, I mean, man, I've learned so much about that whole process
I guess over the last four years since we, you know, we first launched the Create Mobile app
Like, almost four years ago now
Because the other, I mean, the other dimension to that is how many people actually use it for that thing
And what we found, like, we built the initial endless community
Like, it just, we did it so successfully, like, without bragging
Being slightly un-British for a moment
Like, we absolutely smashed, like, onboarding that initial community
And, you know, they absolutely love the way the Create app works
You know, the workflow of how you capture things and then how you can manipulate things
And then share them and collaborate with people in real time
But what we learned, like, after we got to that point is that there weren't, there just weren't that many people
That, you know, there were a few people who absolutely loved doing things that way
And we did a really great job of finding those people
But we never really, we never really managed to expand it outside that
So we, which led us to, like, a lot of user interviews, a lot of data analysis
A lot of, kind of, market analysis, competitive analysis, all of this
I mean, the whole thinking process behind clubs had, like, so much went into it
And I think this can be one of the, one of the catches
One of the really difficult things about finding product market fit
Is that you can, you can kind of get
Yeah, you can get initial signal of product market fit
But it takes longer to get signal about, like, well, actually how many people want to do that thing in that way
So this is kind of what we're doing with clubs, it's like, okay, well, let's take a step back
We know that at the core of what we built and shipped four years ago is something really powerful
Which I call, like, conversational music making
Where, like, I drop down, I drop a kick pattern and then someone comes back a few seconds later with a hi-hat pattern
And so the conversation goes
Like, we know that once people have that experience, they just stick around forever
But now we're like, okay, we've got this core interaction, Luke
How can we now, I guess, kind of repackage it in a way that it's going to be relevant to, like, tens of millions of people
Rather than maybe tens of thousands of people
Yeah, I was going to say, like, that's one thing I like about projects like this
As opposed to, like, building out projects in crypto that are very social-focused
Because it's very hard to tell if you have product-market fit
Or if you just have people using a product because you're expecting some massive airdrop in the future
So it's, like, really difficult to tell for a really long time if you're actually building the correct thing
Because with this, like, the way crypto projects have been incentivized is, like, people are incentivized
To try every single feature, which is, like, not really
It's not really the natural way that you use a product
So it's, like, I'm always, I don't know, it's always really tough to figure out if you have product
It takes an extra six months or a year in crypto to figure it out
But when it comes to things like this, you're working with creatives and real people
And you're going to see immediately what people like to use and don't like to use
And that's what's most, I think, most excited about being finally involved with something not, like, not crypto-related
But also it's not, like, a deep crypto, like, stereotypical crypto project
Yeah, this is more about how people are going to use it than, like, trying to get, like
Because it is just that layers of speculation
Firstly, it's, like, who's the next idiot? That's kind of the thing with most crypto projects
And that's kind of where does the yield come from and who's the next idiot?
And then there's also, like, like you said, it's probably less good features than the alternatives
And it's just people use them because of the airdrops
And you get out values and evaluations for that
And people are going to do every part of the app
So how do you know what part of the app is actually good? It's, like, it's very difficult
Yeah, I think it's, and I see this talked about a lot, you know, there's a lot of, I guess, like, thought leaders in the space
Who talk about consumer, you know, web3 consumer and what that looks like
And a lot of people say that, like, yeah, you need to get product market fit for your product
Before you introduce any of this incentivization
Because basically, like you're saying, you know, the ad, if people think you're going to get a chunky airdrop
At some point in the future, if you do action X, Y, and Z
Then it just completely obliterates any possibility of, like, really understanding product market fit
But then also on the flip side, I see a lot of web3 thought leaders also saying, like, well, but, you know
If you want to actually get early adoption for a project that uses web3 technology
Then you need to, like, build it for the web3 crowd first
And, like, that is something, I mean, I'm generally not a maxi on anything
But I'm definitely, like, an anti-maxi against that
And just, like, no, like, full stop
And, you know, I mean, it's no secret that, like, we've done a bunch of stuff with web3 technology
We're going to be doing more stuff with web3 technology
And I think what we learned from, like, the initial experiments that we did, you know, a couple of years ago
With this marketplace, basically, where you could buy rifts made on Endless as NFTs
What we noticed is that the people who went through all the hoops to use that
They had an amazing experience, but the UX was just terrible
And so many people just don't really take it
Crypto people love terrible UXs, I'll tell you that
Crypto people love terrible UXs, I don't know why
But that's the thing, it's like, you know, what I'd say to everyone is, like, you know, we're a music
We're a product company in the music space who leverages, like, web3 technology
And, yeah, if I'm honest, like, I just don't really see that many projects around that are taking that approach
It feels rare to me, it feels like...
I mean, maybe I'm not looking at the right places, but most of the things I see feel like, you know, they're like a web3 platform
That's leveraging music, or leveraging art
No, you're right, no, I have a huge, huge problem with... not problem, but I have a lot of pushback against current, like, web3 music products
Because they use music almost as a facade to be different
I could see that with a paint job
Yeah, exactly, exactly, and they're trying to say, like, look, you're a musician and here's an extra revenue stream
And it's like, a lot of the times, though, it's not you really gaining fans
It's people speculating on how many fans you might gain
Or, like, how many fans you currently have, or how many followers you have on Twitter
It turns your music into this tradable commodity that's not really being listened to by anybody, it's just being speculated on
And that really sucks, as well
So that's another side of the coin, too
I'm a maxi of not being a maxi, like, that's my favorite thing to say
So I'm glad you kind of said the same thing
I'm more of just a, like, what works maxi, and we've lost sight of that
Oh, I just realized I spelled Tim's name wrong on this face
God, it's been a week, guys, Jesus
So, no, I'm just, I'm a very, like, non-maxi maxi, and I think
There is something to be said about, like, okay, there's incentive somewhere to air-dropping your users for using the product
But you better be damn sure that you've gotten all your pieces of the puzzle correct
Like, if you don't think this is a project people are going to stick around and use after the air drops over
Then you're not really doing anyone any good by incentivizing them to use it by giving away money
And that's kind of where I think crypto has lost sight of the horizon a bit
And Peach and I talked at length about this, as well
Where it's like, the incentivization is a little bit mixed
Where there can be useful pieces to doing air drops
But especially for social projects, then you're just getting, like, blatantly wrong data
On people using features that you don't know if they're useful or not
So that's why I like, I like Clubs and Illus
It's like, especially the people that are going to be using it
You can't, like, really go in there and fake, like, being a music lover
So it's like, whether you're there and you're a part of the Web3 crowd
Or you're there and you're a part of just the music crowd
You're going to use what you like to use either way
Because you're there to make music
So that's really exciting to watch
And I think the product market fit's going to be way easier to find a lot quicker
And the turnaround's going to be...
I think the advantage as well
Sorry to interrupt, but I think the advantage of, like, a lot of these social apps
They need a huge amount of users to incentivize this flywheel of use
Because it's like everybody seeking attention
And this is a little bit different
It does feed into the attention economy
But this is slightly more, to me, as an artist
Why I would use this is because of the initial part of the flywheel
Of make better content with the right people
And that's kind of, that's the thing that's the starting point
Of getting attention on these other platforms as well
And it's like, here, if you form a club with the people that really love your music
And if you make a club with people that can help you make that content
That you get better content
And so, like, that's kind of the point of, like, the initial point to me
Which is an advantage because it kind of removes this
Like, the hardest part of most social apps is
You need loads of use to get loads of use
Like, people only use it if loads of other people use it
And here it's, like, the right people use it
And that's the point zero
And getting the right people to use it
Not to have 100,000 users to get really good feedback
You could, I could have, and it is this way in the music industry
The right four people around me
Meant that I was making the best music I'd ever made
And it was not about, like, 50,000 people
Like, when I had that amount of followers as a kid
It wasn't about those amount of people all giving me feedback
It was about making better content so that that 50,000
It was like, that was a hotbed
This following I had on other platforms was a hotbed
To create this flywheel of, like, if I put a good song out to these people
That can go viral, that can go beyond just those people
But if I was just releasing, like, four out of ten cover videos to them
It's like, yeah, I've got this following
But it's not the hotbed for, like, a flywheel of, like, perpetual motion
Whereas here, the advantage is
If you can just, like, most, most social media
You can't just be like, oh, we just target the right people
Because with almost all social media, almost all social apps generally
It is that flywheel of, there needs to be loads of people
There needs to be loads of attention because that's how you, that's what people are looking for
And here it's more specific
I mean, it's both, it's, I'm just talking about what I, as an artist, would use it for
So, like, that's, that's an advantage
Because onboarding five of the right people for you
Or 20 of the right people for the specific type of thing you're trying to build
Is a much easier thing than saying, we need 100,000 people
And then at the same time, that means that you can find the product market fit
That brings the hundreds of thousands when you're kind of making a better content through there
So it's just an advantage to say, a social app is more about the fact that, like, how you're going to use it
Isn't about perpetual attention machines
It's about that core, what's missing from the perpetual attention machine
Is, like, that qualitative level of, like, where does the content start
And how are the right people giving you feedback
And how are they feeding into it as well
So it's, like, artists together make better music
Than one artist making music for the fans
Which is, again, what Rick Rubin says is, like, artists together make it for yourself
Five artists making music together for themselves
Makes better music that 100,000 people want to listen to
One person trying to dance around, like, all these different perceptions of how 100,000 people want to hear it
They end up in, like, a downward equation
Like, what do they call it, a, like, searching for the lowest common denominator
Which, like, really destroys, kind of, that qualitative level that really does take things to the next level
And it's, like, using that as, like, the zero layer
That, like, all these other layers of, like, attention are built on top of
Because all these other platforms are, like, oh, they can only possibly have market fit in any of the features
If millions of people use them
Like, if you're going to use, like, a Q&A app
Or you're going to use, like, a media sharing app that's, like, pictures
If it's the place where you've got to get famous on it
You need enough of, like, a hotbed of users for your posts to go viral
Whereas this is, this doesn't need that at its zero layer
And then it can become that because that's the product market fit
So that's just an advantage
Yeah, as you were saying that, it made me think that it's almost like a launch pad
It's like a kind of music community launch pad
Because, actually, you know, if you, like, today, if you want to become an influencer
Or, you know, a content creator on any of the channels, you know, TikTok or YouTube or whatever
Like, you have to grind, grind, grind
And you don't know, you don't know how to play, how to game the algorithm
You don't know what, you know, the cycle it takes
You have to put, like, days of effort into a video or some piece of content
To then put it out and then see what comes back from the algorithm
And most of the time, like, the algorithm won't really tell you anything
It'll just give you some numbers
And it won't say, yeah, this didn't quite hit because, like, that section there, the lighting was a bit weird
And that thing you said wasn't really comprehensible and we couldn't hear it
Like, that's the thing that you actually really need as a...
And that's the qualitative level that, like...
People don't go into describing that
They just, like, throw as much at the wall and then kind of see what works
And it's, like, before then, you can actually figure things out
But that does take having the right people around you
And that happens in the industry all the time
Like, creative people get together
And they figure out how to approach things
And just, like, at its base level, that's kind of what the product market fit to me is
As an artist here, it's like...
So it's that, it's like...
So you're gonna upload...
Let's just, like, describe the process of it
You upload a video to TikTok
But in that, it's like, what is the video?
What is the content that you're actually making?
And this is a way to make that better
To have people around you that can, like...
Yeah, to make that better in quality
Like, whether it's making a better song
Whether it's producing it better
Or even, like, what's the content that goes alongside it
What's the thing that this kind of fits in its, like...
In its sync, like, publishing sync
And, I mean, you could...
I mean, music is the easiest best fit
This could easily be a framework
For how all content is better produced
At its starting point of, like, what is the content?
Not just how do you release it
And not just, like, how do you go viral
Once it's already out there
But how is it something that can go viral?
How is it something that people will connect with?
And that starts with creative people sitting together
And having that conversation in music or shooting
That conversation is what makes the content
That then you upload, that then can go viral
And that was what I was kind of obsessed with
Is, like, sort of, like, the nature of, like...
And I kind of killed it as a kid
Because my first ever song
Like, I thought about this for six months
And worked with the right people for six months
I could have recorded those songs in a week
Ultimately, we got it to the point where
I recorded it, we produced it
We did all of that in about two weeks
But it was six months of getting to that point
And then the first thing I released went viral
It was, like, Radio 1 Song of the Week
It got me to play Glastonbury
I was, like, known in all these different schools
I was, like, semi-famous, like...
For my age group, where I was in the world
And it's, like, to do that
People don't see the work that goes behind it
And this is a platform for that
Is for, like, that six months that I was doing
With a producer, with a songwriter
With, like, my creative friends
And getting feedback from them
And then me using that as this, like, flywheel
And that got me to the point where, like...
Exactly what the radio wanted to hear
Even though it wasn't something they were already playing
Excuse me, they weren't already playing
That took that kind of this intangible
That you're making tangible with endless
It's, like, this is the place for that
This is the place where you make the content
But not designed that way
It's just that the natural consequence of making better content
Making better music is that
Well, if it's better, people will want to listen to it more
So when you release it, that's its own virality
Tapping back into the Rick Rubin maxim again
Don't make music for other people
And the better you get at making music for yourself
The more it will be for other people
I guess it's a platform that is explicitly designed
To keep you in that space
Yeah, don't worry about the other people
I mean, it's kind of weird in a way
Like, everybody says the world where
Build It and They Will Come is over
But I think it doesn't...
That applies to tech platforms
But I don't think it applies to music and creativity
But yeah, build it with honest, creative integrity
Build it from the bottom of your heart
And then that is the foundation
On which you can then build something which people will come to
Yeah, because the deeper the music is
And the more it expresses something in you
The more it will connect to other people
And that's the flywheel of music, really
If I go back to what I said
And I realized I had these deep conversations
That people don't share music so you'll listen to it
They share it because it's an extension of themselves
People would share all this music
And why have Taylor Swift fans have their fan accounts?
It's not so that they perpetuate Taylor Swift
Taylor Swift's already the biggest artist in the world
They do it because they feel like it's an attachment to themselves
They want to associate it with themselves
They want to show the pieces that are an extension to themselves
It's one of the few flywheel of music together
So it's like, build it and they will come
Is true here because it's like, build it
And if you build it right here with music
It's not like a tech platform
This is something that people see as an extension of themselves
The right song, the right artist, the right kind of lane to occupy
Connects with people deeply
And especially if you write it because it connects with you
We share a lot more than we think
In terms of depth of humanity
We share a lot more in ourselves
Than we think we share with other people
And you see that when you kind of
There's something that you've been thinking deeply in yourself
And then when you do say it out loud
People go, oh, I've always felt something like that as well
But I didn't know how to word it
And that's been my edifying journey
With sharing peachisms on crypto Twitter
That's kind of why it gets shared
It's not really because it's like
I want to put this artist forward
It's because people want to attach themselves to it
And associate the parts that they relate to
As part of their visible personality as their identity
The music I listen to is part of my identity
And me being somebody that listens to all kinds of music
And finds the deepest track
Not just the most popular track
When I was a kid it was like
I'm indie and I listen to India music than you
And I'm earlier to trends
And all of that kind of stuff
Is what people want people to see them as in their identity
So it is that kind of level of
Build it and they will share it
Build it right and people will share it
Because they see it as part of themselves
But that only exists in music
People associate them with
People associate parts of their identity
With the parts of movies that they related to
Like this saying that I saw this character really deeply resonated with me
Not because I want other people to watch it
But because when people watch it
I want them to associate it with me
And that's why people make accounts that share
It's why people ultimately share any song
They don't share it to be their marketing
They share it because they want you to see their minutes
I do have a meeting I have to hit exactly at 10am
So I think it was a really good way to end it
I think Tim what we should do is like
A lot of these spaces have been
Really interesting and educational and like insightful
Maybe we figured out a way to put them all together in one place
And just you know have them available to people
I think what we should do is get
We could transcribe them and do a TLDR
Of some of the best things that we've said
And then you can post that kind of as a screenshot
Quote anyone that comes up and makes a point
And it's just like this visual thing that's like
And people can connect with
Yeah kind of like spaces notes
We'll be re-teaming IRL for you soon
So yeah I'll talk to you guys later
And I'll see everybody same time
Peach talk to you soon Tim
I'll hit you back about a couple of things soon as well