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Creating a Sustainable Yield in Web3
Recorded: April 2, 2025 Duration: 0:59:10Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion covers Nibiru's launch as a blockchain hub, Hermetica's Bitcoin-backed stablecoin innovation, and Garden Finances' Bitcoin yield mechanism. Chainlink's shift to utility-based revenue models and Nibiru's V2 upgrade highlight technological advancements. Trends include the adoption of stablecoins in unstable regions and efforts to democratize financial services. Emphasis on user metrics indicates a focus on sustainable growth in the Web3 space.
Full Transcription
Music Thank you. so
hey what's going on guys hope y'all are having a wonderful Wednesday thus far.
And let's go ahead and start things off with the usual mic check.
Guys and gals in the audience, if you can hear me right now,
please let us know with some thumbs-ups, with some hearts,
with some kind of indication that the audio is, in fact, reaching you all right now.
Thank you, Divine. Thank you, CJ. Thank you, Nador. You guys are too kind. Thank you so much. thank you divine thank you cj thank you the door
you guys are too kind thank you so much thank you you see appreciate you
all right guys mic check is complete but please give us just a few more minutes to set the panel
up in the meantime please head on over to the bottom right hand corner give us a like comment
and retweet on today's spaces, and we will be starting the conversation
in just a few more minutes.
Thank you, everybody. oh Oh Oh, let me know. Let me know.
Let me know.
I've been trying.
In the river.
I've been trying.
Baby!
Hey!
Let me know. Thank you. Let me go. Let me go. Let me go. Let me go.
Let me go.
Let me go.
I've been proud of
in the river.
I've been proud of my river.
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
You got me dancing Thank you. Let me go. You got me dancing, Crying, Rolling, Flying.
Don't let me go.
You got me running,
And I think I'm all right.
You got me running,
Don't let me go.
Don't let me go.
Don't let me go. Thank you. Yo, how's it going everyone?
Welcome back to Nibiru, the blockchain and smart contract hub that is ushering in the next era of finances.
My name is Ice and I'll be your host for today's show.
Now, ladies and gentlemen,
while all of us in this space right here, right now, today,
we come from all different walks of life.
And I do believe that one thing
that has brought us all together here in Web3
is the goal to achieve a lifestyle that we so desire.
And while there are many facets to this goal, finances are a large part of it.
So let's break it down, guys.
In what ways could we achieve this goal via crypto?
Are these solutions that are presented to us, are they short term or are they long term?
And if we are aiming for the latter, what is the secret to creating a sustainable yield
here in Web3?
Let's talk about this.
But first, let me check in with my co-host, the CEO and co-founder of the Nibiru chain.
What's going on Devine?
It's been a while, man.
How are you doing?
Hey, hey, I'm doing well.
Oh, man, you caught me off guard there.
I thought you unmuted from the house account.
I just realized you pulled up your main account.
But thank you for joining us, Devine.
And before we kick things off,
let us go ahead and check in with our awesome panelists.
Let's go ahead and say hello to my good friend from Swaps.
What's going on, Tigran?
Hi, guys.
All good, all good.
I'm happy to be here.
Thank you for inviting.
Absolutely.
Thank you for being here, Tigran.
Let's go ahead and check in with the representative coming in from Hermetica.
What's going on, Jack?
How are you doing today?
Hey, good morning.
Pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me. This is going to be a great conversation. Looking forward to it.
Love to hear, man. Thanks so much for joining us, Jack. Let's go ahead and check in with the
representative coming in from Garden Finances. What's going on, dude? How are you doing?
Doing good, man. How are you? Doing well, myself. Thank you so much for asking. You know, I'm going to it's going to be a it's going to be a challenge.
I have the I have a bad habit of just swinging in the moniker of dude in between conversations.
So if I accidentally let the dude slip every now and then, I do apologize ahead of time.
I'll try to make it as obvious as possible when I'm actually trying to call the mic.
But I'll try to make it really obvious
for you, man. But dude, there we go again. See, that was unintentional. We did it again.
That's my whole agenda.
Yeah, we're seven minutes in and we've already called dude to the stand three times. But hey,
dude, thank you so much for being here, my friend. Let's get this conversation underway
in just a moment. But first of all, let me check in with Karn representing Rhee.
What's going on, Karn?
Hey, guys.
Thanks for having me on the spaces.
Looking forward to a good conversation.
Thank you for joining us, Karn.
Well, guys, let us not take any more time, and let's go ahead and kick off today's discussion here.
And I would like to do so by asking you guys our dear panelists when it comes to yield
what are some of the prerequisites of long-term sustainability so please take a moment think about
what you want to say and at any point if you want to join in on the conversation please do like my
man jack is doing right now use the bottom right hand panel
and raise your hands like so and of course if you have anything to add in direct response to what a
previous speaker just said keep those hands raised but also hit me up with one of these waving hand
emojis and i'll do my best to skip the line and send you the mic asap and for everyone else
listening in on the conversation right now please head head back to that bottom right-hand corner.
Hit us up with a like, comment, and retweet for today's spaces as I hand the mic over to Jack to start things off.
Take it away, Jack.
Yeah, you know, this space has matured a lot over the years.
I think there's probably a lot of people in this audience that were here for DeFi summer where we really started to get some idea of what yield and decentralized finance was going
to look like. And so today we sit at a crossroads with Bitcoin becoming adopted by nothing less than
nation states and giant corporations. And so the yield of the future has to be built on something
real. If you're going to give over a valuable asset, so in the case of
Bitcoin, you could say potentially one of the most valuable assets on earth, you have to give
something valuable back in return. And so that is one of the fundamental things we need to realize
in this space is, okay, yeah, it might be fun to go degen on something
that has 6,000% APY or whatever, right? We've all been there. But, you know, real yield is going to
have real value long term. And so we have to, we can still do better than TradFi. You know,
so Hermetica is a Bitcoin back stable coin. It's fully
collateralized by Bitcoin and it's actually a yield bearing stable. Um, last night, you know,
cause the way it works is it's a Delta neutral position on, on a Bitcoin, uh, futures market,
basically. Um, so like last night we're at like 19% yield on, on, you know, on Bitcoin because longs were paying shorts. And
yeah, so I think like we just have to look at yield in the spectrum of what's going to be
realistic, what's going to be the most valuable. And then we see protocols, you know, just within
this space competing to offer the best terms, you know, to get people's, you know just within this space competing to offer the best terms you know to get people's
you know attention and their their valuable bitcoin and so forth but we're also going to
be competing with trad pie and um ultimately i think you know that's a game they just can't beat
us at so yeah it's got to be value in exchange for value i love love that Jack. You know, it's got a the yield of the future has to be built on something real.
And you really took me back, man.
When I first came into the space 2021 days, I remember.
Do you remember these Jack like these crazy APY gauges almost like it's like every epic
you can earn like it was like what, like 200,000 over a million APY.
And there's actually a counter on the website to show you how many days of staking of yield it would take for you to get a Lambo.
It's just incredibly predatory on the whole get-rich-quick culture and mentality.
But it's just like you said, Jack.
Oh, yeah, dude.
I could show you my MetaMask.
We could go through the graveyard now and take a trip back to memory lane.
Oh, yeah. it's one of those
things you look back and you think man i can't believe i believed in this once upon a time you
know but it's it isn't realistic and it absolutely is not sustainable and the fact that they crumble
within months if not weeks it just it just goes to show man this is where we start we started off
very very ambitious but at the end of the day it has to be built on something real and sustainable
that being said dude you got your hand up let's of the day, it has to be built on something real and sustainable.
That being said, dude, you got your hand up.
Let's go ahead and toss it over to you.
Go for it, man.
Yeah, adding to, you know, something that you guys have been mentioning.
I've been prey to a lot of these things in the beginning of my journey.
I used to put my hard-earned money into crypto.
And, like, you know, just getting fooled by the apys that people mention like i feel like everyone just mentions the best possible case of you know what you can earn and like the real results is nowhere near that and yeah just always getting lost in all
coins like you know jack said the graveyards everyone has a graveyard in their wallet and
you're coming back to what jack said which i felt was a very valuable point is you know you have to give rewards that are realistic things that are
sustainable so when i think of the word sustainable something like a rule of thumb that i have is you
know something i read in this in a book recently you know some like which defines what does what
sustains for a long time so they define that sustainability is based on something that has existed for, let's say, a year or two will exist for two years more.
Or something that has existed for 10 years would exist for another 10 years.
So, for example, something like automobiles have existed for hundreds of years.
So that would mean they would not go away for another hundred years.
It's like a good rule of thumb.
And that's how I usually view
yield generation at this point is where I look at opportunities that have given yield for an XYZ amount of time, which is not very minuscule, like six months, two months, three months.
And based on that, make a judgment and give APYs that are realistic and not just throwing like 600,000
crazy wild ass numbers something that gives like this realistic number and I can check that this
is what has been they've been giving out as rewards over the past XYZ amount of time it's
something as I look at as in a sustainable way of gaining money and which is getting close to
TradFi right it is a good thing like you know we want people who are coming into web 3 to have that straightforward trust in figuring out okay if i'm
putting x i'm getting y for a reasonable amount of time and like jack was saying you know bitcoin
is a great tool here for example on garden for everyone who stakes our protocol token sealed
on garden gets rewards back in bitcoin every week
because we feel you know like at the end of the day if you really kind of take a very top level
view all the assets that are there in this space are inconsequential to a lot of people at the end
of the day right the only top altcoins in bitcoin are the coins that people really care about and really would hold on to.
So we realized that it's pointless giving out rewards in your own token.
And if your system allows for it, you should give rewards in tokens that people want.
So we decided since we are a Bitcoin bridge and we generate fees in Bitcoin,
we had taken the call to let people who have skin in the game by staking our token, have rewards every week in Bitcoin specifically.
And they can track how much yield they're getting.
Dude, and I actually mean dude as in the man dude.
man, dude. You, dude. I love that. It's crazy to me because you actually brought out one of the
You dude.
I love that.
major issues, not just in the crypto space, but just, well, I guess it's like the whole crypto
space by extension. But when I think of all these gaming ecosystems, it really is true on the way
that you say it. We get our community involved. They do X, Y, Z. We put them on quests and missions
and basically hidden advertising, if you would.
And at the end of the day, what do we have to show for it?
Ecosystem tokens that are really encouraging us to stay within the world.
But we don't know how long this world will last, right?
It could be for two weeks.
It could be for two months.
We don't know.
So instead, why not give rewards in the form of tokens or assets and the things that people actually want?
So I really do respect the way that you guys are going down with this, man.
It's a breath of fresh air.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
And that being said, I would love to hand the mic over to you, Karn.
Take it away, brother.
Yeah.
So look, there's always a place for the casino, right?
And that's kind of what crypto has been historically. And to some extent extent that's kind of leveling off now.
Like there's utility, perhaps not economic utility in playing zero-sum games
with an entity that has a rake over top.
There are always going to be winners and losers, but there's no actual wealth being generated.
And so my general viewpoint is pretty consistent with some of the other
speakers here is like well um you're gonna have to find a way to bridge real world economic activity
on chain and that means like as a kind of a starting point enabling access to liquid asset
classes creating secondary markets around those things democratizing asset access to liquid asset classes, creating secondary markets around those things,
democratizing access to things that people around the world don't have access to.
And clearly, one of those things has been U.S. dollar denominated stables,
eventually U.S. dollar denominated equities and fixed income instruments.
You know, our business is basically take stables,
have users restake stables into a global capital lake that supports every insurance company in the world.
Those insurance companies pay premiums directly to the holders of those stables or suppliers of stables.
But you can generalize the idea in crypto to every single chain and every single application that requires validation is effectively an insurance protocol.
You're posting security collateral in exchange for future economics.
So I think there's a world here where we move towards bridging crypto economic assets that have consistent perceived value
into the real world,
at minimum as a starting point of security collateral.
Eventually, as you start to get critical mass there,
composability kicks in, and you can start to,
you kind of like stitch together different concepts
to drive return to a user.
And you already see that in stables, right?
You see, hey, the atomic unit is the dollar.
A wrapper around that could be the risk-free rate.
A wrapper around that could be the basis trade.
You could swap out the dollar with another crypto economic
asset and have that effectively be the same thing.
So, like I said, I think there's always a place for casinos.
Things exist in the real world.
And there's going to be, you know, people that flock to that for a quick buck.
But if you're truly trying to build an economy on top of, you know, a bunch of L1s or however
you view, you know, the crypto economic system to be configured over the course of the next
decade, you know, people need to be transacting with applications. They need to be buying over the course of the next decade. People need to be transacting with applications.
They need to be buying and selling things.
They need to be generating economic value
and economic activity.
That's really the only way forward
for this entire thing to make sense
and for us to be spending time on this at all, really.
That's quite interesting, Karin.
And before we hand the mic over onto Tigran, when you say like bridging crypto economic
assets with perceived value, that really does hinges upon the psychology of a lot of investors,
right?
Because I think a lot of investors, and pardon me for calling people out here, but it's very
short term.
I think we've been conditioned in the space to the point where everybody is searching
for that short term gratification. And of course, what we're talking about today is how
do we contain, how do we, how do we actually build sustainable, sustainable yield? And that implies
it is long-term, right? So in your mind, Karin, like what are some of the major problems that we
really have to address here before we can make this pivotal change? Well, let's just think about
like why companies exist in a traditional economy,
right? It's because an investor in a company believes that the capital that has been supplied to that company is internally going to generate a higher overall rate of return than they would be
able to if the cash was sent back to them, right? This is like the basic premise behind like,
if a company issues a dividend, they do not believe
that they have the ability to generate a return internally or future perspective return internally
on that dollar. Therefore, they're going to return it back to the investor and the investor is now
responsible for finding a place to put that dollar to earn an overall higher return.
And so you could argue, you could argue that in crypto, the general belief is that, and this is not explicit, it's implicit in the behavior of folks that are behaving this way implicitly.
or utility that is commensurate with whatever they can send back to me and I can go, you know,
flow that into like whatever other projects or other hustle needs to happen. So I actually think
the solution starts at the application layer, right? Like what we need is a whole new vintage
of founders that are exclusively focused on building goods
and services that are linked to on-chain entities that are linked to,
you know,
on-chain identities and on-chain assets that deliver value to the end user.
Right.
And you can take the real world as an archetype for that, right?
There should be decentralized messengers.
There should be decentralized social networks.
There should be decentralized ledgers, there should be decentralized social networks, there should be decentralized ledgers of real estate assets, any scarce asset.
It's clearly, I think, the view of most of the people on this call that all of traditional
finance should end up on crypto rails simply because of the efficiencies that it brings forth,
the additional potential liquidity, and structurally
the composability of being able to utilize assets in ways that otherwise you'd not be able to do
in traditional finance. And so that's kind of what my thinking is. We're still in this Cambrian
explosion of people trying things, and that's appropriate. You know, everyone's just a sea turtle hatching on the beach,
trying to make their way to the ocean, being picked off by seagulls and crabs.
And some of these folks, some of the people who are building things in this space,
are eventually going to make it to the sea or the ocean.
They're going to live hundreds of years. And that's kind of what I'm looking forward to. I love the metaphor, man. That's really crazy. Oh, man. Really does paint
a deeper picture on how we see things here. But I love it, man. I really do love that,
whatever we're building now today. It has to build value in addition to what TradFi is providing.
Let's go ahead and take it over to you, Tigran. What are your thoughts on this?
Oh, Tigran, bottom left-hand corner.
Yeah, I'm here.
I think when we say something about the sustainability,
it means that we need to take a look on the behavior of user.
For example, you can use leverage for stablecoin.
And stablecoin is supposed to be stable,
but if you use the leverage, it will be already not so stable
and you can be liquidated.
So I think that if we talk about the stability,
so we need to talk about something which will be
liquidated but also we have like we see a lot of
uh migrated uh apy right now because like what we do we're preparing a swaps market so we we
aggregate a lot of different stakes and staking is taking landing and other protocols and we're preparing them for launch.
And we can see right now that this is APY is flying
between chains and between protocols.
It's like super fast.
And I think if we talk about like some kind of future
and what we will see in the future,
so that's probably one of the ways
where it's really need help of agent and some kind of
automatization because if you use some let's say like smart wallet with a
white listed pools and assets and open source model which can help to automate all the sections
so we can delegate like some kind of execution task to we can start it from
on-chain it will be much more secure than do cross-chain but after so in the next reaction
we will see how the market like progress and we will see different uh let's say evolution stage of different generation of these solutions.
And we will see how this can be delegated to agents which can move
and hunt for different kind of API in native coins, in stable coins
without any kind of purple leverage and like high risk activity.
So when you can like work with the LST and LRT tokens
and for common general users, it will be some kind of simple
kind of like one button when we don't need to explain to users
like what's happened under the hood that you need to go, let's say,
to like some kind of staking protocol, like symb the hood that you need to go let's say to like some kind of staking protocol like symbiotic after you need to go to another protocol and after you put
uh in a pendleon morpho as a lp provider and get this tokens which need to be for example like
a balance next four hours or next 12, 24 hours and do a lot of these
things and like keep gas and pay all this because it's really complicated.
It's more about the digging stuff.
But the agents, I think in the future will help to find this some kind of, some kind
of automatization which can help you to extract the maximum possible value from the
market and do it in like in some kind of safe way. Interesting. So simple, simple solutions,
I guess, right? Simple solutions that can bring value, but not only does it need to bring value,
I think it's really important that for it to not to be overly complicated to the point where people just say no things and move on. I think
onboarding is one of the challenges that we just have to address in our space these days.
Yeah, right now crypto is like some kind of battlefield for different dig-in strategies and
there's a lot of experiments. It's not really adopt right now for for users it's more
adopt for developers and machines but we need this stage so we need the stage of like polygon
of battlefields with different solutions and just after some time like after some buyers, we will see the, like, I think really huge progress, especially in the way of automatization, when all these ideas will be being just in one place and it will be a super simple solution when you can manage your portfolio in a decentralized way.
And I think every student and kids, they will have something like this just in a few years.
Yeah, I mean, not related to crypto, but in a way on the upcoming generation, they already have access to all these tools and resources that we didn't have back in the day.
And of course, I'm talking about AI, and I don't know how AI is causing all these troubles and problems in the educational sense
of things. I'm sure professors are not having a field day with this one, but hey, that's their
problem. We're here to solve deeper and more complex things. But on the topic of long-term
sustainability, I do want to bring the mic back to my man, Divine, here. So yeah, what are your
thoughts on this? What do you think are some of the prerequisites or secrets to long-term sustainability?
I'm sorry for interrupting you, but I will not call this as an AI. I think this is AI is like some
kind of tense generation at least. And we don't have any AI right now in the crypto. It's just a
narrative. So what we really have
and what we will see very soon is like some kind of autonomous bots so there is some kind of relay
which can be deployed uh on your own cloud in a secured way in the te or something like this and
they can be just you can delegate to them some kind of templates with executions,
but it will not be AI.
Because in my opinion, AI is like some kind of, it's a machine which can do machine learning
and they can generate or build code data and like build some code for you.
But don't do it.
Don't try to use the code data from AI to your smart contracts
or like give some kind of a proof for this.
It's super dangerous
so right now it's like maybe next one two years we can talk about autonomous agents and all of
this but but that's not right and since stability with AI it's not the equal right now so I think
it's just a narrative bringing more more problems than we need on our plate right now right but divine i'd love to
hear your thoughts on this brother yeah man let's uh let's bring it let's bring it back yo what are
your thoughts on this what do you think are some of the prerequisites that we need to hit in order
to establish long-term sustainability yeah i think we touched on a lot of this i i would probably say
the the biggest thing is that you just want to, and of course as Web3 continues to mature, this is entering the picture more and more.
But the biggest thing is just that we need to prioritize like real product market fit over hype, right?
So I think it's becoming more clear to people that if no one wants or needs your product, token incentives won't save it, right?
So users can be ultra mercenary and come over with lots of liquidity and volume to soak up rewards for something but that doesn't
necessarily mean they're gonna have like without any organic desire to use the
product so like some of the if I just if you almost just look at let's say what
are some of the things that do get a lot of revenue or that are a lot like very sustainable right now on web3
so classically you have like dexes with trading fees and even more so centralized exchanges right
i think binance earns like double digit billions every year or like has been doing so for like a
couple years in a row and like coinbase and like larger exchanges are very similar, right? You've got like
perps, the prominent ones are in like the hundreds of millions for like fees generated. So like GMX
and Hyperliquid, like Drift on Solana. So those are, these are like, and then of course, like
infrastructure providers, you saw move away from kind of, I guess Web3 kind of had this problem where a lot of, or still does,
a lot of the companies and protocols that come into existence are like heavily optimized
for getting venture capital and not necessarily for like products and services or like making
revenue.
So a lot of infrastructure providers started to move over to like fee models where they charge for usage that are more similar to cloud providers in Web2.
So Chainlink created a scale program, which is that instead of just paying in link, it's also fees generated on the chain and basically transitioning more to utility-based revenue.
And then the last area I would say off the top of my head is like stable coins and yield bearing tokens or just general asset management if we kind of put
those all together and rwas could be in that group too um so to kind of connect these ideas it's just
like really just having web3 startups or protocols or whatever that are aligned with actual user activity as their basis
for existing long-term. If we can just have more things like that, that's how we'll have less
things that just come into flavor for hype cycles. Yeah. I love that, Devine. And since you mentioned
actual user activity, let's dive a little bit deeper into this rabbit hole.
And I would actually like to reference something
that Karn said at the beginning of today's space,
which is that we need to provide real value, yes.
And we need to provide value in addition
on top of what TradFi already does.
So what are your thoughts on this, Devine?
What are some examples of value that you can think of
that has created the value that has been created in addition
to what TradFi is already doing for us.
Yeah, I think the easiest one is like payments
or just making it easier to access like assets
that would normally,
things that we normally have to jump through a ton of hurdles.
So obviously we have,
in the case of like lending and borrowing
is like the easiest example, I think that people bring up a lot um because like getting similar
caliber of loans is normally like much more arduous in in you know the non-crypto world
um so that's one i think i guess also the this is becoming a lot more popular lately, but access to things like bonds and treasuries and then eventually like stock indices on chain is like a value add there.
Just basically it's making it a lot easier and then especially with – we don't have as many hurdles with this being American, but I guess in places that don't have as easy access to those sort of assets, crypto is making that much more broadly available. Yeah, I think we actually
spoke about this, I'm pretty sure, Devine, last month on the topic of borrowing. Traditionally
speaking, if we wanted to buy a house, we need to borrow money. We need to get our hands on some mortgage. That process takes a long time.
We need so many NOAs, two years worth of NOAs. We need to have a mortgage agent. We need to go
through stress tests. We need to prove XYZ, ABC. We need to prove so many things for what? Just to
borrow money, right? But instead of that, if we can have all this stuff on chain, it's really about
accessibility and it really is about efficiency because we no longer have to dig through our drawers of the past financial statements and balances that we've kept in this messy drawer for the past 10 plus years, only to find some papers that can prove that, yes, we can, in fact, borrow this mortgage and stay on top of payments. And Jack, man, I saw you throwing down those 100s
and popping off in the audience,
oh, sorry, on the panel there as Devine was speaking.
So I would love to toss you to Mike
just to hear your thoughts on this too.
Yeah, 100%.
And I think it's important to keep in mind
that in this space,
builders have kind of been trying to create
with a blindfold on and two hands tied behind their backs because no one really knew
where we were going to ultimately end up in terms of acceptance and regulation and so forth. So I
mean to even build in crypto at all was an act of bravery depending on where you live geographically
and I think that you know Divine made a perfect point when you talk about accessibility.
We, you know, if you live in the first world, we don't stop and think enough about how difficult it is for somewhere.
I've seen estimates as high as two thirds of the population have difficulty just getting, you know, banking services of any sort.
you know banking services um of any sort right so as we sit here you know in america and we're
starting to hear things like oh bitcoin on on you know trad fi rails is going to be fantastic
well no it's not because trad fi is already not serving all kinds of people so just because you
put bitcoin on it that you're not you're not actually changing anything for anybody. This is what DeFi does.
Some of your biggest users of stable coins are people who live in places that don't have access
to stable currency. And the real value proposition for Bitcoin and crypto at the most deep level
is not just the decentralized, powerful network of Bitcoin, not just the fact that
it's hard money, but the fact that there's no gatekeeping, that you can open opportunity
for everybody.
And so you change lives at the individual community and then even nation level scale
over time.
And I think we're going to see the speed run based on how quickly nations get on board with with crypto so I think we're really at the beginning
of seeing what's going to be possible and there's been so many good things
brought up in this space so far you know the the alpha coming out of this is
just amazing this is what we're gonna be looking for you know we're talking about
creating sustainable yield well we're also talking about creating new opportunities, new business opportunities, new opportunities for everyone.
Whether it's, you know, hey, you know, my over leveraged pension might finally, it might actually pay off for me because I can now have Bitcoin in it to, you know, making it easier to get loans.
Like you said, like, who needs a credit score agency when everything's on chain
and you're dealing with, you know, lenders on chain and you can go and create your credit history there?
What about when people are working on chain, not having to use their government name, but using, you know, their digital identity, right?
Like this goes back to, you know, we don't know who Satoshi was or is, but we know what he did.
And that's enough.
And that's going to reshape the entire economy of how things are in general.
And speaking of AI, then you get into what's proof of human worth in this AI age that we're entering right now.
Well, it's probably going to be worth a whole hell of a lot if you think about it.
All of these create all kind of new avenues for discovery.
create all kinds of new avenues for discovery. And we're right here finally in a position where
we're going to be able to see how we can leverage this technology to improve the world. I think
crypto story is less about, oh, it's people operating on, you know, a high time preference
to just degen. Yeah, that's fun. And I'm not going to throw a stone at anybody because my house is
made of all glass in that respect. But, you know, it's been more of a story of what can we build
and like not have to face consequences for. And so no one really knew now. Now we're starting to
get some idea. And it's, you know, in this conversation, we're already covering some of it and i don't know
how you just can't be giga bullish at this point man jack i love this man thank you so much for
that you know just just to summarize like there's so many uh so many spicy bombs i spicy bombs what
am i talking about there's so many, amazing takes that you just gave us,
Jack. You know, so many things I wanted to kind of really highlight super quickly. First thing,
being a sustainable yield is one thing, but new opportunities is absolutely another. And the other point that really hit hard, man, it's the fact that TradFi doesn't serve everybody.
And we don't think that. We really don't think that. Maybe it's because of the luxury that we're
born into, or maybe it's just because we haven't gone on to that walk of life yet.
But it is really true, right?
There's a lot of people out there in the world that they don't have access to traditional finances.
And while we sit here and think, you know what, we need to do what TradFi is doing but better, that is a way of putting it.
But truthfully speaking, we have to make sure that we bring new opportunities and new
accessibilities to everyone.
And just like you said, Jack, we're here in this space.
We are building blindly, right?
We're trying to predict not what the future holds, but what the future needs.
And man, does that turn things way more difficult than it needs to be.
But I do want to pass the mic over to my man, Karn, on this next one.
You know, we spoke a lot about how TradFi doesn't really serve everybody.
So it's been on my mind for the past five, ten minutes now.
And I would love to hear your thoughts on this, brother.
And that is, what can we do to ensure that our products and services are accessible to those who may not have the luxury to access banks or get help from traditional financial institutions?
as banks or get help from traditional financial institutions what are your thoughts on this car
What are your thoughts on this, Karin?
yeah i mean look like i think that's been the primary thrust of and and continues to be the
primary thrust of like you know the tokenization of assets the tokenization of us dollars i i don't
know that it requires the the way that we're configured i don't think that it requires us
to actively push as much as you're kind of implying
there. If there's product market fit, people are going to naturally gravitate towards and use these
products, right? Like humans are pretty crafty. So if they've got these new tools, we live at
various degrees of abstraction. If they got these new tools, they're going to game any system that's
put in front of them, right? And so why do you see massive stable point adoption in Argentina?
Right. Like it's to protect and hedge against an inflation, I think what people will end up doing is surprising
you with the behaviors that they exhibit using your products.
And as a founder or an entrepreneur, your job, I mean, to some extent, certainly is
to try to predict a half step into the future, what people will need.
But the bigger part of the job is just observe how people are using your products, what feedback they're
offering to you and what they are asking you actively for, right? And build product to support
those behaviors. Because changing consumer behavior is very, very difficult. Building
to support consumer behavior is much, much easier and ultimately ends up being much more scalable,
right? And that's how you get massive businesses born out of this thing. So I think it's more so behavior is much, much easier and ultimately ends up being much more scalable.
And that's how you get massive businesses born out of this thing.
So I think it's more so
a demand led philosophy, you know, build products with a nugget of value,
compound value on top of that by listening to your users, build product that supports what your users want.
And that's how this flywheel gets started as opposed to you know actively starting with the ethos of like hey you know we need to
make sure this gets in the hands of everybody possible um that while that's a great general
virtue i it doesn't it it doesn't necessarily mean that it is something that needs to be in
the hands of everybody i think you got got to start with the people actually want it.
Well said, man.
It comes down to listening to your users and having the correct product market fit.
You know, as long as the product is sound, it's going to bring in the people naturally.
But, you know, I think one point that you mentioned to make things better, right,
is having that feedback, listening to your users.
But then we get into another rabbit hole, which is what is genuine feedback, right? Because
sometimes we have holders that are balling, they're whales, and we kind of feel iffy when we get their
feedback. Like, yes, your opinions are probably louder than others, and we will have to adhere to
that in some way. But when it comes down to it, I do want to throw this one, actually, over to you,
dude. Oh, wow. Perfect. Dude has his hands up. This is amazing.
All right, dude. So first of all, you have your hand up ready.
So go ahead, please. Share what you have in mind.
And then I'll hit you with a follow-up question. Go for it, man.
Awesome. So yeah, on the point of listening to your users,
this is something I saw we try to do user studies on our application regularly to understand exactly how the users
are kind of reacting to the user interface we've built and the experience we're trying
to create.
And there's a way that we've found to find like a hot heat map on the website where we
know exactly when someone is coming, like, you know, where exactly are they going and
clicking.
To get an understanding of exactly, you know, where exactly are they going and clicking.
To get an understanding of, you know, exactly, you know, what is the behavior and what are people trying to do when they come to your website.
And interestingly enough, there's something I actually wanted to bring up today is that while traditionally, you know, we're more of a bridging platform,
we were very surprised to see a lot of heat coming from just the stake button.
And like, you know, people just want to know how they can stake that was like a very big unlearning for us you know because um we saw we see the
application from a very like a functional perspective of this just being a bridge but
realizing that you know a lot of people who are just exploring applications um they actually want
to know how they can get some
skin in the game first and like you know be a part of this community and like jack was mentioning
a lot of the countries in the world don't have access to trade files for example i'm from india
and for the longest of time i don't think i was able to been able to buy like apple stock or
something right because uh even like considering india is decently
you know they're in a decently developing it's still hard for us to you know get
uh action onto you know big tech giants that are in the us and they like they have an impact around
the world but you know crazily enough you know in web 3 you don't have that you can actually just
go and get skin in the game in any project that you just like and that was something that
was you know very interesting for us to see a lot of these people who are not
just users but just people just going around checking out applications to see
where they want to just like be and you know be a part of the community and all
that so yeah it's very important to listen to your users and understand
their feedback. And that's basically how you build products. Otherwise, there's no point,
to be honest. You can't sustain.
Absolutely, man. You know, just a quick follow-up on since we're talking about feedback. The one
thing I did want to ask you before, dude, is that on the subject of getting feedback and listening
to our users, what advice
would you give when it comes to separating
genuine feedback from malicious
feedback?
So, it's a good question.
There's a book I read. It's called
The Mom Test.
I don't want to get into too much of a
tangent, but the concept of the book is
if you go and pitch an idea that a product of something to your mom, she's going to say it's like beautiful, it's amazing, it's excellent.
Like she would have a bad thing to say about it. And that's essentially all how it happens, you know, when you're trying to get user feedback.
If you're doing it very apparently and in a very structured way, you're always going to get a lot of noise.
And the important thing for the design team and for the product team to always figure out is how can they build systems in such a way that the feedback that they're getting is not noise or is not biased by anything.
biased by anything. So, which is usually just trying to capture general, natural data from
your application, how people are using it, how people are dropping off, and how much time people
are spending reading a blog, or how far are people getting into your landing page. And then,
how many people visit the website, out of which, how many people actually do a trade you know just like the traditional statistical you know way of looking at it that is one and then second thing that works
is you know um a lot of big this is something i learned when i was in an mnc is um designers have
a way of doing structured user studies where it's like the environment they create is like very different
and they are very aware of you know all the noise that's possible from uh you know feedback coming
from let's say whales or farmers or stuff like that so giving like ux researchers or ui designers
they like let them them handle the feedback part
and not come from a marketing side
is what I would say is a good way
to get qualitative feedback also.
Jack, you had something to say.
I just like the fact that you're saying
basically remain impartial to the situation.
Have other people that are not asked.
Yeah, exactly.
Jack, go for it, man.
Yeah, you know, this is, go for it, man.
Yeah.
You know, this is a great topic.
And again, it's kind of discussing where we're going as an industry.
I'm a crypto guy, you know, and what I like is on-chain solutions for things. So when you start talking about testing, here's what I think we're going to see more of going into the future. If you're in this space, you're getting an education
that you can't receive anywhere else, right? Like you can't go to, you know, a university and go
study DGEN 101 or what have you, or, you know, we're not there yet. You know, this is as much a technology as it is a subculture.
And so, you know, on that end,
you do learn a lot of things as a user.
And one of the things, you know,
the ecosystem I'm most active in
is the Stacks ecosystem.
And one of the things that,
one of the protocols has been building,
you know, for a couple of years now,
and I'm very excited about,
is this idea of on-chain reputation, this idea of how you can have your, you know, accomplishments or what you've done or so forth be verified on-chain in a decentralized manner. And I think
that teams that utilize, you know, experienced people who have good reputations and who are human and and by being
able to verify this these are going to be your in-demand testers and again this goes right back
to create an opportunity you know if you've been in this space for you know any amount of years
and and you you have observations and insights that people from outside the space don't have
this is going to create a whole new wave of opportunity.
Just like you said, just in a way of,
of product testing and giving feedback and so forth because hiring in this
space is, is difficult.
You see web two to web three founders flounder and screw this up
constantly. So I think again, like we found a lot of our
solutions on chain. And I think that, you know, user feedback is going to be one of those solutions
that can be found on chain. I love that, Jack. On chain verifications for your experiences,
reputation, and everything else. That is so immensely powerful. Because like, what's another
thing that's very prevalent in our space?
It's people faking engagement, people doing things fake,
trying to make that big splash that draws people in.
And while we may be drawn into the initial splash,
it doesn't take too long for us to notice that it's bogus.
People are typically able to sniff out the BS from really far away,
let alone up close.
But man, when it comes down to macro,
when it comes down to the large numbers,
it really is, it goes,
it harkens back to the whole goal
of blockchain technology,
transparency and efficiency and accuracy.
And man, those fake reviews
and fake followers and just fake anything,
it totally just jumps in and disrupts all of that.
But Karman, you got your hand up.
We're going to go to you for the final take.
And of course, then hand the mic back to my man,
Devine, for some closing thoughts.
Take it away, Karman.
Yeah, so look, I actually think this,
what we're talking about should be easier
in Web3 and DeFi
because there's the economic incentive of ownership, right?
Like you have a say in how things are built ultimately
have a say in how things are built ultimately or some variation of that.
or some variation of that.
I would suggest that we don't throw out everything that was learned in Web 2.
If you're building a consumer-oriented application in Web 3, what are the things you care about?
You care about DAU over MAU.
You care about 30-day, 60-day, 90-day retention.
You can be objective and honest about those things.
If you're building something that has SaaS-like characteristics, you should consider benchmarking yourself against a Web2 equivalent, right?
Like what is the weekly, monthly growth rate in fee revenue analogous to growth rate in MRR?
What does net retention look like?
You know, is it above 100%?
That means like, are your customers growing up with you?
If so, you know, this points to a potentially healthy outcome.
Now there are going to be variations around this,
but these are tried and tested in true playbooks
and kind of understanding whether or not you're on the right path.
And more broadly for the people in the ecosystem around you to corral around, you know, something that is working, right?
These things should be readily observable.
And so, you know, outside of just like at the highest level, which is like, hey, somebody lands on my site and like here's a specific behavior.
on my site and like, here's a specific behavior.
What's most important is like digging down
into the metrics and understanding
whether you are growing, whether you're attaining users,
whether those users are continuing to find utility
and get value out of your platform.
And if not, then you need to go right back
to the drawing board and pivot
and utilize what you're seeing, you know,
to get those traditional heuristics to start to move up and to the right.
So there's,
there's a lot to be said about not reinventing the wheel here is the crux of
Well, so Karen, and I know, I know a lot of innovative tech,
tech folks in our, in our space and in our audience.
So sometimes we think, yeah, this is the new shiniest object.
Let's just go ahead and try our best to integrate this into anything and everything.
Oftentimes, it seems all right.
It seems all right that you guys are doing this for the exposure buff.
And while it does work in the short term, long term, going back to today's space's topics, long term sustainability, that typically doesn't unravel the way that we expect it to.
But I do think that all of this, it is A-B testing
because we don't know what the future holds.
We don't know what the future needs.
So we are going really above and beyond right now to test everything
and hopefully through this testing.
And unfortunately, there's going to be a lot of projects that hit a wall here
and they realize that these integrations have not indeed not served their
vision. But as this happens over time, we're going to come closer to the final goal. And that being
said, man, I do want to pass the mic back to my man Divine for some closing thoughts. And of course,
what are some upcoming updates going on within the Beeroo chain that we should be paying more
attention to? Yeah, just wanted to say the uh especially that that last answer was like music to my ears i think
that we there's a lot of obviously we need to be adapting and innovating on things in web 2 but
for a lot of stuff like metrics on which to evaluate ourself um or just tell whether something
is legit or if we're making like organic progress a lot of
that stuff has already been like very well tested or works well in practice so we should definitely
pull over those ideas from sass or other aspects of up to but yeah as for just general updates on
Nipiru that you were asking about so last month we went live with our V2 upgrade.
This was a really big major milestone for us,
that opened up Nibiru to a much broader set of
apps that can launch on top of it by bringing EVM equivalents.
So since then we've done, let's see,
the layer 0 endpoint is live,
Stargate will be set up pretty soon,
which will be like most of our main bridging.
And so there's a pretty big basket of apps that will basically launch on top of that.
A lot of it is DeFi, but there's some RWA stuff mixed in there with like Treasuries and Syrup, Abracadabra, all that stuff.
So our next big thing is, you know, essentially public onboarding for that.
Getting people to use the the v2 and you know
our high high performance evm chain um so yeah that would be most of the major most of the updates
since the last time i spoke to you appreciate that divine and of course if our audience members want
more information and want to stay updated on all things Nibiru where can they go
yeah following our um the account here that's hosting here on X um there's also the Nibiru
Discord is pretty active we do lots of you know stuff um both more interaction with the core
contributors and then also things like game nights other things like that. So it's just a good place to learn or also like interact with other community members.
But yeah, usually Twitter and Discord is what I'd recommend.
But we do have an active Telegram group as well.
Gotcha, gotcha.
So Discord, Telegram, and of course, Twitter.
If you guys want to get involved with Nibiru, please visit their Twitter account.
And I believe all of those, all those access to all those links can be found there.
But guys, oh man, today has been quite the educational space.
I hope you guys found as much value as I did.
And that being said, ladies and gentlemen, this is going to mark the end of our space
for today.
Thank you so much to all of our awesome esteemed panelists for joining in on today's conversation.
And of course, thank you guys in the audience for dropping all those likes, comments
and retweets. We really do appreciate
all the love and support.
Now, one last time, make sure you guys are following
the Nibiru House account. And of course,
remember to turn on those notifications so you guys don't miss out
on any of the latest updates.
But until then, this is going to be Ice signing off
and we'll see you guys in the next one.
Peace! dates but until then there's gonna be ice signing off and we'll see you guys in the next one peace Thank you.
