Welcome everyone to our weekly creator space.
We're getting up one more panelist and I think we're going to kick off.
Hey, hey, how's it going?
Yeah, thanks everyone for coming up.
Today we're talking about the relationship between creators and collectors.
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Looking forward to a fun show today.
Again, we're talking about the relationship between creators and collectors in Web 3.
So yeah, let's, Riggs, why don't you say hi and introduce yourself and then we'll go down the list on the other panelists.
Thanks for coming up and co-hosting with me.
I work alongside of Josh at Boardroom Ventures.
Some of you may know me from a Twitter space called The Lunch Break.
I see some of my crew down here, Dall, Strictly Sports Mr. House.
Been in the NFT space for a little over two years.
So I guess that's considered an OG.
I've got some battle wounds.
But excited to be here and have some conversation and have some fun.
And then why don't we go to, I see Doge about next.
So why don't you go on, Sarah.
So John Lemon here, founder of The Doge Pound.
Been in the space for, I guess, directly in the NFT space for about two and a half, three years.
Launched Doge Pound about two years ago myself.
So I've been pretty connected with everything, at least on the NFT side of things.
So just excited to be here.
Yeah, I still have my Doge Pound on my puppy.
What don't you have, Josh?
I feel like you have absolutely every NFT collection there is.
I swear every day I hear you've got something new.
I'm going to post it in the thread.
But yeah, Creatorhood, go ahead and go next.
Hey, hey, it's Aisha, one of the co-founders of Creatorhood.
And yeah, I've been around the space for a couple of years as well.
We're excited because we're going to be launching soon.
Jessica, do you want to go next?
Hey, good to see you all.
Wine bags, it's been such a long time.
It's really cool to see you in another space.
See you in another space again, like old times.
I am a creative director over at Vayner3,
and I am also building a blockchain-based game called Unum
that is set in the future 2140.
And Ed, good to see you as well.
I originally, when you told me the time for this,
I thought you were talking about Eastern Standard,
And then I will be going to get my blood drawn
at some point during this session.
So if I pass out and you don't hear from me, that is why.
I will respect you for hanging out with us
before you get your blood drawn.
Good to see you, Jessica and Josh.
And thanks to Ed for the invite and all the listeners.
I'm a musician, producer.
I also do AI art and AI video.
And yeah, I joined the space.
Early 21, I've been minting NFTs ever since
although I am in this sport as an artist and a collector.
That being said, I do pick up what I can
and yeah, happy to be here.
Well, we're going to have some fun today.
And I think we designed this,
today's panel, to have a range.
So, you know, we've got some artists,
we've got some collections,
we've got some reflectors,
and a lot of us are kind of a mix
of some and different ones of that.
So, yeah, my first question is,
how would we describe the relationship
between creators and collectors in Web3
and specifically maybe how it differentiates
from the traditional model that we came from in Web2?
I can go because I have to deal...
I was going to say, I'll speak at one.
So, I have to deal with this on a regular basis,
talking to companies that are used to engaging
where they're used to having one-way conversations
So, they'll put out a form of marketing,
and they're not expecting someone to come back
They're like, this is how it is.
What we do is cool, right?
And then the consumer is just expected to go out and buy.
And we've entered this era
where now consumers expect a level of engagement
and to be a part of the conversation
in a way that was never even possible before.
So, consumers are actually expected
to be able to influence what a company does,
what products it puts out.
They expect a level of customizations
that we just didn't have the tools
to satisfy prior to Web3.
Yeah, I mean, I'll chime in there.
I totally agree with that take, Jessica.
I mean, I look at it as this space gives an opportunity
for you to be a collector
and then transition to a creator
because by having ownership of these assets,
it allows you to, whether it creates memes,
create different styles of artwork.
I mean, CC0 is something that I care about, obviously,
with my PFP, and there's so many other opportunities.
But I've never felt more engaged
with the creators of so many of these assets
because I've gotten the opportunity
to build incredible relationships with them
versus going to a gallery.
Many people don't know that I used to have a gallery
in Charlotte, North Carolina,
where I sold a lot of my paintings.
And I don't know if I met,
unless I did a commission piece,
I don't know if I met any of the people that owned them,
which I think back on it, I'm like, man,
I would have loved to know who has those, right?
And where do they have them in their house, have photos,
try to maybe give them something additional.
And I would have had that if I was in this space.
And so I just think there's so much correlation
and alignment between creators and collectors now
because of this technology and what we're doing.
Yeah, I mean, as an artist,
I think it sort of depends on the collector
and the creator and sort of what each wants out of it.
I am not super engaged in the projects that I do buy into,
although most of the projects I have bought into
And sometimes that is because I really respect this creator
or someone that I'm like, oh, yeah,
like I see the value in knowing this person
and I'd like to be a part of their journey.
And usually there is some reciprocation
on the other side of that,
although I don't necessarily expect that.
But I also, as an artist, try to be around,
I mean, even if people don't collect me,
I think a lot of this is just networking
and being able to meet people from all over the world,
doing really cool things with tech and art and tokenomics.
And so I think, I make myself very available
to my collectors if they want,
but it sort of depends on who it is.
A lot of people, there's so much going on
that it's hard to keep up with all of it,
So I think it's a never evolving relationship
and yeah, I think it's just defined by who's involved.
I think one of the really interesting things about Web3
is just that ability to get a lot of that feedback
and hearing what folks like
and what they'd like to see more of.
And it's just having it two ways is so important
and I think it makes you feel like
you kind of know your community
and when you put things out there,
there's going to be folks who are going to be there
So I think it's just, it's very special
and someone who's building a marketplace,
it is a two-way and it's very much
the bit of the secret sauce, I think, in Web3.
Yeah, and I would voice the same opinion
that everyone is more or less so far.
It's, I think it's exciting that it's becoming
more of a two-way relationship.
I kind of think more of even beyond NFTs,
I think I have a big background in influencer marketing
And I mean, if you even think about,
let's think about somebody that's like a YouTube creator
In the past, there would be really no way
for this creator to really,
the creator or the collector or the consumer, right,
to really have any sort of experience with the creator
Like a good example would maybe be them creating
something like a social token or an NFT
and they can hold or gain that token for viewership
or for coming along the journey with the creator
and that's something that just previously didn't happen.
In the past, if you were a fan of a YouTube channel,
I mean, you were pretty much just consuming the content
and then there was, I'm sure you're getting value
from maybe consuming your creator's content
but you weren't actually like winning with the creator
and I think Web3 opens up that opportunity
to win with the brand, to be a part of it
and to me, that's the most exciting part of it.
Yeah, what are some of the challenges
that creators have faced as they've tried
to pursue this new way of engaging
with their collectors in this space?
I will say the drawback of having all these tools
to be more accessible as a creator to your fan base
is that sometimes you can get some demanding fans
or collectors and maybe some stocker-esque behavior
going on there and then just the sheer volume
of communication that you get inbound nowadays
from every possible channel, that's a lot.
And not entirely sure how anyone is expected
to handle that much communication
and you certainly can't be a people pleaser in this space
because you're definitely going to,
you can't make everyone happy,
you can't give everyone 100% your full attention
or you can for a very small part of time.
I'd actually really love to hear from the creators
here on the stage how they handle, how they deal with this.
Like their collector relationships
and how they just handle the,
I want to say like guilt or anxiety
of not being able to get to everyone
or maybe they have a really good system
for getting back to everyone.
Maybe they've replicated themselves with AI.
Wine bags, how are you doing this?
Because I know you, like historically,
you've been in the space for a while
and you talk to a lot of people,
Yeah, I mean, I have like five AI versions of myself.
So you sort of nailed it there.
No, but really, I mean, a lot of the collectors
I think that I have attracted are not really there.
Like I don't promise a lot of things.
I mean, I try to do cool things for people who have supported
like, you know, when I get blue sky invites,
you know, my collectors are the first ones I hear about that
and you know, that kind of stuff.
But, you know, I have a telegram chat that I invite everybody
who has collected me to, I think about maybe 20 to 30%
of them have actually joined and it's sort of just open.
I don't really, there's no pressure on either side
But I just, I don't know, I, you know,
try to check my DMs and try to get back to people
unless they seem like they're, you know,
trying to scam me, which there's a lot of that
and I'll sort of just ignore it immediately.
But I think it's, you know, showing up and, you know,
I used to host a daily space and so that was a great way
for people to come and, you know,
I wouldn't answer any questions I could.
I don't know everything and usually there'd be people
in there that would know stuff I don't.
So I think just being, you know,
as active as you can on stuff like Twitter and,
and I mean, it is, it's a lot, like there's a lot of new social
apps sprouting up, Lens, Blue Sky.
It's, it is hard to keep up with it,
but I just do my best and I haven't really had,
I don't think I've had anybody that has come at me like,
hey, you're not giving me enough of your time or energy.
So maybe I've been lucky in that sense,
but that's been my experience.
Yeah, I can speak to this really quick.
Yeah, it is very intense, at least,
at least for me as a founder,
a founder at one point was one of the most popular NFTs
in the space and I, I did have people that,
that were angry at me because I couldn't, you know,
give them the time of day or answer every single DM
and it was literally impossible at the time.
So it's intense, you know,
the NFT space as a creator, as a project owner,
I think a lot of people would second that opinion,
having to deal with a large community or a large audience.
It's also a good problem to have.
I think similar to what Wine Bank just said as well,
though, is I think the biggest way that we've maybe gotten
around it, or at least to this day,
developed a lot of trust with our community,
is just continue to be transparent with them.
You know, we might not be able to answer every single question
at every second of the day,
but we're constantly giving them updates of what we're working on
and being as transparent as we can, you know.
And like Jessica said, at the end of the day,
you're not going to please everyone,
but I think for us, that's been the biggest factor.
Like, you know, be honest with your community,
be transparent, communicate as much as you can,
and then at the end of the day,
you just have to do the best job you can.
But we've gained a lot of trust that way.
Yeah, I'd like to chime in on this a little bit,
because I think that this space has gotten so out of control
at times where the insanity of 2021 and early 2022
drove speculation and expectations just to the moon, right?
We were headed to the moon, and with expectations,
they just got out of whack,
and then in particular for artists, right?
You know, buying art for art,
it was never meant to have utility associated with it,
and all of a sudden, these PFP projects were coming out
and crushing it, and so were some of these incredible artists,
but they were getting lumped into the same expectations
as these PFP projects or these NFT companies, right?
And I just think it became an unfair situation,
and then you hear all the time in this space about,
you know, I've got to take a mental health break
or, you know, I'm having some depression issues
and I think it's because of the work-life balance.
You know, we're in a space right now that's 24 by 7.
There is no market, right?
It's worldwide, and so things can come at you
at all hours of the night.
I mean, I've sat there, you know, I host a daily show.
I'm not a creator yet from an artist standpoint in this space,
but I host a daily Twitter show,
and I even go to events, right?
These in-real-life events, my DMs are insane
with people, you know, wanting to meet up with me,
and I'm grateful for it, right?
But you miss one, and you do have that guilt.
All of a sudden, you see somebody,
and they make a, you know, a snarky comment.
Oh, I've been DMing you where, you know,
I'm glad I ran into you, and I'm like,
Like, I honestly didn't mean to miss it,
and I think, and I don't have a big following, right?
You know, I've got 8,500 followers.
Think about the people, like,
Faroq, from an influencer standpoint,
that has 300-plus thousand followers,
or some, you know, people, or, you know,
Jack Butcher at this point.
Some of these incredible artists and creators in this space,
I just think it's become extremely unfair.
And again, our expectations,
I think we're coming down from the rafters, right?
We're slowly but surely starting to reset
what we should be thinking about in this space.
What does true value mean?
And that can mean several different things
It doesn't always mean monetary value.
And so I'm super excited for the future of this space.
I definitely think that the bear market was needed
for those resets and to ultimately create
a sustainable process and a sustainable ecosystem
where we can now all grow and level set.
So I just think expectations in the speculative market
really took things out of whack.
And so if you have a project or a collection, man,
And obviously, if there's ever anything I can do
to help, you know, my DMs are open.
See, that right there gives me anxiety
that you put it out there like,
Like, I'm already of my, I'm having heart palpitations.
I'm really curious because that is like a legitimate way
that you can handle your fan base
is by working with AI tools.
I'm curious from your perspective,
if you were communicating with an artist,
someone you respect and appreciate,
and you're having this great conversation with them,
and then you found out, like, let's say months later
that it was their AI, how would you feel about that?
Are you asking me in particular?
Yeah, you in particular, anyone else here on the stage?
I think if they used it as a supplementary tool,
not as the main, like, meat and potatoes,
you know, I'm a southerner, that's kind of a southern term there.
So, like, I think it would be okay, right?
I think we should be leveraging the tools
that are put in front of us
because we want to make our lives easier.
But I do think from an AI standpoint,
we need to be very cautious to remove all human interaction
because when you do that,
it doesn't become a tool, it becomes a lifestyle.
And, you know, a tool is meant to be used,
And so I just, I don't think I'd have a problem with it,
ultimately, as long as it was, again,
not as just that I'm talking to AI Jessica, right?
You know, all of a sudden we find out it's an Alexa
that's programmed to just respond
to basically everything that people are doing.
So that's my take on that.
I like that. Thanks, Riggs.
I can also chime in on that.
I mean, you know, I reach out to a lot of people
who are, you know, sort of above my weight class
in terms of cloud and following.
And a lot of the time it's, you know,
sort of a shot in the dark and I don't, you know,
you can't really take it personally
if they don't get back to you.
So if someone does take the time to sort of set up a system
to at least help people out in that way,
I'd be all for it personally.
I mean, we only have so much capacity
as a person to do things,
especially if you're creating and building something
and it's, you know, it's tough.
So I'm here for it personally.
Yeah, did you all see the thread this week
He has like a chat GPT thread
with all the problems his project has had.
He's like educated the GPT thread
and then he tells it to be like an angry collector.
He tells it to FUD him and he uses it
as like a preemptive FUD sounding board.
And it's really interesting, like such a interesting way
to try and add a dimension of like,
how do you get that kind of feedback from your collectors
if you try and train an algorithm to have the context of,
you know, well, they didn't like the hoodie
or like, you know, we didn't ship this
So it's a really interesting thing that he's doing
and building it over time.
And I think there's a lot to learn
in terms of proactive communication,
but also like personas and how you use these tools
to give you kind of better visibility
into what's going to be helpful.
I certainly think like, for me,
I'm so much more interested in like augmented intelligence
than artificial because like we want something that's real
that's not artificial, but I think of it like Photoshop, right?
Like Photoshop has been a tool.
It can make things that are fake
and it can also improve things that are real.
And it's really how we use it.
And there's a lot of kind of mail it in GPT stuff
that I think isn't great.
And then there's so much amazing work that's doing,
that people are doing with it to save time,
to, you know, kind of better communicate
and understand each other.
And I hope we're doing more of that
and less of like, you know, just quick form responses.
Oh, Josh, I really love that.
It's like, if people are being chill with you,
you can have those conversations
and if they start being dicks,
you can switch over to your FUD bot
and they can just talk to a bot that has infinite patience
and can be trained to be totally calm with them the entire time.
I think that's the thing that I really appreciate with AI
is it has this infinite patience
and optimistically I want to believe that it'll train humans
to communicate, better communicate with each other
and be kinder to each other.
Like, because a human will eventually fatigue of being an asshole,
but the AI will always be programmed to be nice
and just answer with kindness.
Yeah, that's actually one of the, probably at our agency,
one of the most common uses we use for GPT right now
And so we might write something and be like level this up,
more professional, kind of make it more casual,
And you could absolutely like write something in,
in whatever we're feeling and then be like,
can you make this nicer, right?
Like GPT, please tone this down
or like take some of the bite out of it.
And honestly, that's something that we do.
Like some of us have all like probably like written an email or a DM
but not sent it and just like, all right,
I'm going to give myself a walk or a nap or a break, a meal,
and I'm going to come back and I'm going to decide with a send it
and I'm going to change a few words.
You know, we can certainly have a filter
where we ask GPT to help us think about the tone
that we're using when we get worked up.
Yeah, we should do, that reminds me,
we should absolutely do like AI tools for creators
and think about, you know, and both like community management
but also, you know, some of the art, none of that stuff.
So team remind me, we'll do that in the coming week
because we can have a lot of fun with this.
Yeah, going back to this idea of like creators and collectors
I think one of the lines that we have to walk
is really the like excitement,
hype on one end and then expectations
and kind of delivering on that other end.
Like how do we walk that line
where we know we want to market things,
we want to market things, we want to get people excited,
we want to, sometimes we even like as creators,
we want to like promise stuff that we think we can do
or, you know, that we're excited about in the moment
and then also we want to set realistic expectations
so that later that doesn't come back to bite us.
So when you think about the balance
between expectations and excitement,
how do you walk that with your collectors
or as collectors, how do you walk that with creators?
I think I've really been thrown into the fire with this,
And maybe going back to some of the last things
I really like feeling the wrath of the community
and trying to get, maybe myself as a founder
even getting caught up a little bit in the hype
and trying to like constantly go from, you know,
one thing to the next and catch the next hottest thing
I can say in the past with Dogebound,
I probably, you know, set the expectations wrong.
I've really kind of turned it back a lot as a founder.
And I don't know if I necessarily have the secret sauce
for it now, but I think you have to be definitely really,
I mean, this isn't just native to this space either.
With any product that you're building,
you have to really make sure you put the expectations
So I've had to really turn back the knob a little bit
with what I say and what I promise our community.
I think if you can find the example that I think of
that's doing a great job is something like Memeland right now.
They don't necessarily promise anything, right?
But you can see that something's on the horizon.
But in the middle of everything,
they're keeping you very entertained.
I don't know if anyone, is anyone in here a fan of Memeland
It's very addicting, and they don't promise anything.
Like, you know, something's coming.
And maybe it's not the greatest example
because they have this reputation from the past
that kind of helps the overall leader of the product.
But they do an excellent job versus in the past,
I would do stuff like, oh, like if I talked to a big company,
I'd be like, oh, guys, we just talked to such and such company.
And it immediately set this wrong expectation
that that meant that we are for sure going to work
with that product or with that brand.
So I think you have to be really careful.
Maybe it kind of goes back to the old cliche saying
of under promise and over delivery,
but it's so, so true in this space
and I think for any product, really.
I'm a fan, for the most part.
And full transparency, I've got a bag.
That being said, do you think that Ray is leaning too far
into the speculative side of things?
I mean, I know that is part of the attention economy
But because of how he phrases things,
I think he gets the benefit of the doubt from his past.
Do you think he is creating a lot of opportunity
for one, let down possibly,
or two, just far too many people not understanding
what and why they're buying into the project,
which I think is what got a lot of people
into the situation we are today with several others?
So like you said, I think his background definitely helps overall
and maybe some of it's a little bit unavoidable, right?
It's probably some expectations that others are setting
beyond him as well, which can be tricky.
And some of that happened with Dogepound as well.
We had some of the biggest influencers in the space
pumping Dogepound and then later they come back to me
and say, why did you pump it so high
and now you're letting it fall down?
It's like, guys, we never paid that person
to say these things about Dogepound.
That was their own prerogative, right?
Like, of course, we don't want the project to ever go down,
but, you know, maybe similar to the theme
of what we were talking about earlier,
things just got a little bit out of control,
which was a little bit hard to maintain and control.
I don't know if I have an answer for it,
but I do know they're, you know, like you said,
with the attention economy, they're definitely doing a good job.
And sometimes I'm in there.
It's like, I don't even know why I'm addicted
to playing these little games, but it is addicting.
if you were to like uncover everything that they've made,
there's not really a whole lot there, right?
If we're being honest with ourselves,
there's not much of a product there,
but they're keeping you entertained.
Well, hopefully building something much bigger.
See, I know my limitations.
I'm like a true gambling addict, like,
and I'm not legitimately an addict,
I am not going to start rating these things because I'll sit there
all night long just watching this stuff wins losses.
He's doing an incredible job maintaining an attention,
maintaining a level of entertainment,
at some point entertainment should be considered value.
Entertainment should be considered utility.
You know, if I go buy tickets to a Broadway show in New York city,
I go for the entertainment, right?
I don't go to expect to sell that ticket later for money.
So I just think there there's part of it.
But Ray is doing some incredible things from that standpoint.
I definitely, everyone says,
I mean, Josh probably knows this far too well,
but everybody says don't you go.
I think we could look back at some point.
People say don't pay. Right.
Right. You know, he's, he's pretty smart dude.
But I just, sorry, not to keep the subject going too,
but I do wonder, you know,
to, to some of this as well, like the,
you'll see the community.
I mean, the community is at times the ones that forms these obnoxious
Like people saying, well, you know,
a meme token is going to be the biggest token ever.
And everyone's going to make all this money.
And like some of it, it's, it's just, I don't know.
I don't know as a creator, as a brand,
if you can control some of those things, that's kind of a good,
it kind of comes with the pros and the cons, I would say.
But yeah, it's interesting.
Yeah. I mean, something about Ray,
I've been really impressed with is like how long he took to get to mint
in a way where like there was hype for a, for a long time.
And they didn't, they didn't just say like, all right,
let's push the button and see if we can crank it.
And they might've cranked it more like during the pool,
but they just said, yeah, we're going to do,
we're going to watch this when it's right.
And I remember connecting with him like over a year ago,
I think about, about the project. And so it's, you know, they,
they, they definitely took their,
took their time to build the community to,
to think about how they, how they want to release.
But yeah, that I think something,
that I've been thinking about is like,
it's one of the challenges of like having expectations from our
community to build in public. And, and like John,
when she was saying about like, okay,
I did this meeting and now everyone's all hyped up as like,
sometimes like actually the, the,
the imagination is bigger than the reality or the, you know,
than the result. And so we,
we want to build in public and yet people can run away with like, oh,
okay, like it could just be this crazy, crazy collaboration.
You're going to acquire it or something.
And then, you know, it's like, oh,
we just had a meeting and we're going to like look into some, you know,
ways that we can like do this together. And, and so I think that's,
that's always a challenge is
expectation setting when we're saying like, Hey,
we are going to be public and transparent about some of these like
but they might not pan out or they might not be as big as what you
Yeah. I've kind of had to become like a shell of a person with,
with some of the things, the ways I communicate with our community.
And the last thing I'll say, I remember this too,
like at the height of Doge pound,
people would be when it started to go on, go up and other projects would
they would be mad at me as a founder because we weren't doing what cool
or we weren't doing what board eight block club were doing because their
expectation in their mind was Doge pound is going to be that big and
never, it never became that. So doing what that is, I don't know,
It's something you just have to kind of like live with, but like you said,
these expectations sometimes are just so outlandish and I don't know,
but sometimes it feels like you can never fit the expectations of,
of some of the people in the space, which can be challenging.
Yeah. Let's talk about, I think a lot of us that were kind of around for like
kind of bull market vibes and where we've, we've been around through,
through a year of a bear market vibes too. So how,
how in this market have things changed as far as connecting with their
community? Is it better or worse, different?
What do things look like as we have to change the gears,
I can take this. I mean, for, for me, I think it's been very, sorry,
a lot, large truck passing by.
It's honestly been pretty similar and I think it's, you know, there,
there are sort of two different worlds when you look at the PFP world
and you will look at quote unquote, one of one artists,
but you know, it definitely feels a lot quieter.
Like a lot of the people I know who were here every day on spaces or
clubhouse or, you know, whatever, and really active, you know,
sort of balanced, which is, you know,
people got to do what they got to do. But I think it lately,
it has been a little bit easier to keep up with the people who,
you know, want to be engaged,
at least from an artist perspective because they're just,
are less of them, which is, you know, sort of a good and a bad thing,
you know, but yeah, that's, I'll keep it short there.
Jessica, were you rugged?
I saw you come off mute and then, uh, wasn't sure what,
what was happening there.
Oh, cause it still shows, it still shows rigs audio is going.
So I thought maybe he got rugged, but what I was going to say is the
change for me has been the quality of conversation has been more enjoyable
for me because then it's not about shit that I don't care about.
It's not about numbers or floor price,
this or whatever quantity of sale that it's,
it's just the builders who are around right now.
And the conversation is around what we can build.
I was just going to voice a similar opinion as well.
It's been nice to kind of, yeah.
Erase some of the noise in the space,
some of the speculation and just get back down to, you know,
our case, like what is doge pound?
How do we see ourselves reaching a bigger audience?
You know, what is that ideal audience?
You know, and people, like,
I think there's more grounded now, you know,
if you're in the communities now, it's people that are, you know,
for the most part, they're, they're genuinely, genuinely there.
They might not be as active as they used to be when the NFC space
was red hot, but yeah, it's, it's, it's enjoyable.
You know, the community is maybe slightly less engaged as a whole,
I would say, but I think some of that might,
at least with the, the smaller audience event,
a few people that exist right now as collectors.
I think that's going to be a little bit natural as a market kind of abs
and flows, but yeah, I would voice a similar opinion.
I mean, I, I'm obviously not a creator of a project,
so I can't answer to that,
but one of the things that I've talked a lot about with people,
I think when things finally shake out and, and, and, and, and,
I guess for lack of a better way of saying it,
we're headed back towards a bull,
which I don't know if bull market necessarily means number go up,
but maybe bull market means body, more bodies come in,
more people come in, the energy is higher.
I think we're all going to look back on the people that stayed,
that kept building, that kept building these relationships.
And we're going to have a pretty special bond with one another.
And I think we're going to have a pretty special bond with one
another. There's, there's not as many active people, right?
And this was the opportunity.
They say bear markets are where builders really build, right?
And I think there's just a lot of people that have been doing that,
whether it's building a brand, whether it's been building a business,
whether it's been building a project, you know, our product.
And so I just think that we're going to look back on this and yeah,
morale's down. Things are bleak at times, but we're here.
We're freaking here every single day.
We should be grateful that we are,
it's 5 43 PM on the Eastern, on Eastern standard time.
And I'm getting to sit on a Twitter space,
talking to friends about things I'm extremely passionate about.
And we should all be grateful,
even in the hardest bear market in the world.
And I think we're going to be grateful.
We should all be grateful even in the hardest bear market times.
And so I'm appreciative of that.
I'll look back and, you know,
I got to meet Josh in the bear market and him and I are now I'm getting
to work for him and BRV. It's changed my life, right?
This is, this happened because of the work that's going on in the bear
market. So I just think there's going to be a bond between us all.
I think that's like really great to hear.
Cause I think a lot of as someone who's building in the bear,
it's interesting to see that kind of dip where there was so much hype
before and everyone was just trying to get in and it,
it didn't feel authentic. Now it sort of feels more like the, you know,
the nature of interactions is really about getting back down to
fundamentals. Like what, what are you building? Why does it matter?
Why are you passionate about it? How is it additive to the space?
And I do feel like the quality of conversations, um, it's just better.
Right. And the folks that you're kind of engaging with, um,
who kind of want to be next to you, it's just better. So yeah,
I think some of the benefits of being in the bear are just,
I guess the degree of like,
you kind of really see who's in the trenches with you, right?
And who who's willing to weather the storm.
And then when things get better again, you just kind of have to sift through,
you know, what, who's real, who's authentic,
and who's just there for the ride.
I mean, uh, still love the people who laugh,
but I especially love everyone who's stuck around massive,
massive quality of people. And, um, I think it's,
less noisy, which I think is helpful just for, you know, connect.
Yeah. Well, if you're an audience and you want to come up,
feel free to ask a question or chime in. We're talking to be joined in the
middle. We're talking about the relationship between creators and
collectors and web three got a mixture of, um, you know,
projects and artists and, and, you know, folks in the industry. I hope, um,
we were going to do a wellness check on Jessica at some point.
Cause she was, she was going in for, in for the doctor, but let's, um,
yeah, we, we've got a little bit more time just hanging out,
talking about bear market vibes and, and communities and
expectations and how to, how to manage it all.
But yeah, don't, I love the, uh, I love seeing a bunch of dogs down,
down in the audience. They, they showed up and sweeties clearly still,
still around and commenting. So that,
that's something to fun to see is just people showing out, which is so
Yeah. We're, we're still alive. It's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, yeah,
it's been a long, it's been an interesting ride. I'll say that it's
been a fun ride too. Like it's like kind of going through the different
We'd love to hear about this event you did in LA. Um, yeah,
what was the, what was the attention that went into that?
How, how did it go? Um, and what are some of the kind of new,
new paths that you're trying to find forward for the project in,
Yeah. So actually one of the, one of the funny things we were talking
about AI. So doge pound, we're still partners with, uh,
AMGI studios, which is the guys that made my pet hooligan.
They're really good friends of mine and you know, I'm biased,
I'm not a fan of the best creative studios in the entire web three
space right now. Um, so we're doing, yeah,
I'll get to the LA event here in a second, but we're doing, uh,
we're taking our IP now and we're actually making AI based
characters with them. So you'll be able to use,
um, like our mascot character in the near future here.
We want to test something where we even put them live on Twitter
on video on Twitter and people can just interact with them and talk and he'll
respond to your questions in real time. And it's all AI based.
So we're going to use that as a starting point.
I think it'll get a lot of eyeballs. It'll be really fun to see. Um,
and we kind of have this belief. We're already,
we're getting a lot of interest from this because it's,
we have this belief that, you know,
companies and brands and people are going to be more likely to want to
interact with like a fun looking character then versus some of these kind
of like creepy humanoid AI characters. At least in my opinion,
I think it's a little bit creepy if you're talking to a human that looks
slightly real, but slightly robotic. Um,
so we're going to be testing using our IP in that way.
And if it works, which it's kind of already working,
it'll kind of open up this,
this way to really make content creation like super,
super fast where you could just, you know,
take your Doge character. We'll be able to make these at scale very soon.
You know, take, take this character,
whether you're making content by talking back and forth to him or just
telling him what to say, um,
or putting them on a website and letting people interact with them.
It should make content creation at a pretty high quality.
Um, really, really fast, which I think is going to be really,
Yeah, that's super fun. I love,
I love the creativity there as you're exploring, um,
exploring how to, how to build out these characters with AI.
Yeah. Yeah, it should be cool. I'll, I'll show you guys some examples.
there might be a near future where, you know, we could, um,
we'd have to think of how it could interact with like a Twitter space
like audio, but where you could talk to him, Josh,
and then he could respond in real time.
You guys could just have a conversation back and forth.
And, you know, I've made characters for a long time.
I used to make a lot of mobile games and, uh, you know,
even John Lemon was a character that I made back in the day.
It was literally a talking lemon character,
but I was always disappointed by it because the output of the content.
So like, if you recorded something with, you know, doing,
let's say you put a filter on your face,
it never really looked, you could kind of tell right that it's the content
wasn't quite, it didn't look like, you know,
professionally animated or look super, super professional.
It was no better than like taking those, you know,
apps on your iPhone and like making it look like your cat or your dog
So we were really trying to get to the point where like the output
of the content is stuff that people would actually want to consume
and the character actually looks real and the animation looks really good.
And, uh, you know, I can't even take a lot of credit for it.
MDI is just, they're just extremely good.
Um, so I'm excited for that.
It should be able to make like content creation with animated characters
really, really fast and it should look really, really professional.
It's crazy how fast this is going to be.
Like we went from like hand drawing and like, you know,
doing every single frame to now what you can do with AI.
Um, and pretty soon, you know, all the different tools in that,
You made a song with Grimes' voice who she offered as like, um,
gave kind of royalty permission to be able to use.
Um, how have you been using AI in your music?
Tell us about, I've been in this competition.
Everyone should go vote for, uh, for wine bags.
Take a listen to the track.
But yeah, tell us about that.
I mean, you know, it's funny cause I, I've been using AI in music
production for a long time without even really thinking about it.
I mean, I use like, you know, stuff like soothe where it, you know,
sort of like automatically ducks,
resonant frequencies and using ozone to sort of like, you know,
help quickly master a track.
So it's, you know, it's been there for awhile,
but wasn't necessarily part of the conversation, but I think, yeah,
when I saw what Grimes did, like it came out right after that whole
sort of Drake fiasco where he, you know,
was definitely not about people using his voice.
And she's like, Hey, use my voice.
I'll split publishing with you 50 50.
Like that's to me fucking awesome.
And I, you know, I jumped on it.
And yeah, so this contest is put on by Uber duck, which they, I,
I don't know exactly the extent of the tools they offer,
but they do have like a, you know,
like a vocal AI modulator and they built one specifically for Grimes.
And she also has one on their site,
which I sort of went in between them because they're a little bit
But yeah, essentially like you, you know, record vocals, you know,
I recorded my vocals, uploaded them into, you know,
the AI generator and it sort of spits it out and Grimes and some of,
you know, it took some tinkering.
I think as time goes on, it's going to get way, way better.
I think it opens up a completely new world in terms of collaboration
what we'll see in the music industry.
And I know like I've talked to people who sort of work with like
universal and others and people are sort of trying to figure out how
And I think, you know, I don't,
I'm a little naive when it comes to the industry,
but I do think a lot of these sort of big players are going to be a
little too slow to move in time with it.
But people like Grimes who, you know,
she owns all of her masters and she, you know,
she owns all of her stuff.
Like this is a great opportunity to like, I mean,
It gets the name of, you know,
producers that want to jump on it or, you know,
And yeah, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm here for all of that.
if you do have a chance to retweet and give it a vote,
it would definitely help. So I appreciate the shout out.
Yeah, that's what my mind blown.
It's like pretty soon we'll be able to flawlessly sing as any
like singer in history or, you know,
Oh, it's coming soon. It'll be here soon.
Well, and a question there,
and maybe this is a little bit of a field from our topic,
but like, how do we balance, you know, does that,
and this may be also doge fund goes to like kind of the AI
animation as well. Like, how do we balance as creators?
The, the speed with which AI,
AI tooling is beginning to not just augment,
but in some cases like replace craftsmanship and,
and kind of human effort and skill.
Does it devalue, you know,
what, what people can do and what creators do does it.
Is there, is there a threat there or do we view it as,
I'll jump in real quick on this one too, because I, this,
I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I do think it's.
I think we're going to see a lot of low effort stuff just like,
you know, anywhere that comes out of this.
But I do think the tools that are being offered also
allows like one individual person to build like a
like a completely different scope of something
than they would have been able to before.
I mean, I don't know any JavaScript
and I just had chat GPT, I was using chat GPT-4.
I had to build out like a complete P5 JS.
This would be people that use this to build crazy shit
that nobody could have thought of before
because it's literally all possible, you know.
I still see it as mostly a supplementary to a skill,
whether it's AI or coding or anything.
I don't know, it'd be interesting to see
if it can get to the point if you're an AI expert at music,
if you could, I don't know, beat someone
that's literally just a musician
that's high up in the industry.
I don't really see that happening, at least in my opinion,
at least anytime in the near future.
I think it's mostly supplemental.
I don't believe that I, like me, I'm not musical at all.
I don't think that I could learn AI tools
and do what Wine Bag does just with AI tools.
Maybe in the future the tools become that good,
but I think for now it just becomes like a,
yeah, your handy dandy assistant for some of these things.
And I don't think it should be really feared.
I think it could be a little bit interesting
as time goes on, what people might do with it,
but I think it's also really exciting.
I personally love the innovation of it.
I can't even, I've been trying to turn on alerts
for all these people talking about AI
and all these different tools
and the ways that I can use it.
I can't even keep up with it.
It's just the rate at which it's innovating
and growing right now is just phenomenal.
So I think it's exciting,
but I still see it mostly as supplemental, personally.
Yeah, I don't think we're at a place yet.
And I'd be surprised if we got there sooner than later,
and this is maybe a form of a singularity,
at least for creators is,
like I don't think AI is able to replace
like human ingenuity and creativity yet.
I think any tools are still beholden
to the limits of our imagination.
And that's exciting to me because it means that
if we open our minds and I will say like these tools
can let us do really cool stuff or save us time
or do things that never been done before, what can we do?
It's so much more interesting to me.
I think the reality is a lot of the music industry,
mainstream stuff is indistinguishable from AI-produced music
in the sense that it's already formulaic
and it's already kind of boiled down
to someone who used data to make decisions
about how best to monetize something.
like that's gonna be pretty easily mimicked
by some of these LLMs and all the different tools
that are gonna combine in to be able to make that.
And yet there's like some,
I think the true artists who have that creative spark
are doing stuff that like just never been done before
I can't imagine how anybody has ever like thought
to put all that stuff together.
And hopefully we see more of that with the help of AI.
Yeah, well, we're coming up on time.
It's been a fun chat and I appreciate people being flexible
We're gonna go deeper on AI in a coming week.
If anyone has a final question, feel free to request.
Otherwise it might let spicy rigs out
to land the plane with our guests.
But yeah, any final thoughts, wine bags or doge pound?
I'll just say it was a great conversation
and I appreciate spaces like this
and I'll definitely be coming back tomorrow.
So I appreciate you having me on
and another shout out to Ed for the invite
and yeah, thanks for having me.
Yeah, also I got a shout out to Ed too.
I know I knew Ed from, I don't know, like four years ago
back in the D live streaming days
when he was working at Axie Infinity.
So it's cool, like we've connected past in many ways
over the last four or five years.
we got to play some basketball sometime.
We still need the, let's see the doge pound
NFTBA team show up and hit the court.
Yeah, if you're a magician, welcome up.
You wanna have a final question before we roll up?
Yeah, I like talking about AI.
I mainly just wanted to jump up and say hi
since it's like a whole bunch of my favorite people
just kind of randomly in one place and wine bags.
Doge pound was one of my first NFTs
and you're always doing cool stuff.
So just kind of a fun combination,
but I'm also down for the doge pound basketball team
by the way, that's happening.
Yeah, we're drafted right now.
We're just gonna recruit it here
and then we'll hit the courts, but.
Yeah, Beer, what do you think about?
How do you use an AI these days?
What's been interesting to you?
Oh dude, so many cool ways.
I mean, it's like my favorite thing right now.
I mean, it's super cool because you can do whatever
and like you guys kind of talked about,
It's a way for people to use
and kind of amplify what they can do.
Like you may not be able to overtake people,
but somebody that's good at using the tools
can kind of catch up, you know?
But it's like you're saying with the music and stuff,
like those people are still gonna kind of be at the top,
but some guy that never had a chance
might be able to get up to the middle somewhere
And, but I think one of the big ones,
just as far as the future of AI,
is just the, like the intuition side.
You know, sports, war, those kinds of things.
Like AI is all about logic and pattern recognition,
but there's not that like feel and the creativity of,
like you said, new things.
You know, it knows the stuff that's happened.
So if you want to try to do some new war tactic
or new sports play or something like that
and basketball game or whatever,
it's not gonna know that, but it can do all the old stuff.
And so there's still that creativity.
You still need people involved with all that stuff,
but yeah, no, I'm doing a lot of AI art.
I have a bunch of stuff I'm putting out,
We're kind of opening stores with different patterns.
And my girlfriend's been wanting to do
like wallpaper and things.
And I don't know, it's just fun.
Whatever you can do to use it, I think is just cool.
I would just say that anything's possible.
It's just all creativity.
Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm excited about is
hopefully AI can actually reduce the time
that it takes for us to sit down and create.
back when I was doing more music production,
it's like I would, like, it would be,
you know, like put the kids to bed, sit down.
It's like, all right, I'm ready.
Pull up a synth and it's like, okay,
how long does it take for me to get the sound that I want?
And it's like, you know, you're turning the knobs or whatever.
And then you're like, oh, okay, great.
Now it's time to make some music.
And then you're like, okay, now I got to do the beat.
And then you're like, oh, like it's,
I'm super interested in like natural language.
Like, hey, I'm thinking like this beat,
and then I want to do this kind of melody.
Like it's going to be really fascinating.
It'll require musical knowledge
and it will require creativity,
but it'll shortcut some of the paths
that we normally have to take.
And if we have to go back over and do it,
you know, maybe it's like scratch pad kind of stuff
where we're just ideating.
And then once you get to a place you like,
maybe you decide to record that or, you know,
And then you can just kind of, you know,
draw a few lines and then like switch between styles
and worlds, and it's just like on the fly.
Generating them is incredible.
So yeah, lots of fun stuff coming.
We will, we'll have to table this for our future AI chat,
but appreciate everyone showing up.
Thank you, especially to our creators and collectors
who came up and were part of the panel.
And I'm really excited to be here with you today.
I love the bear market and don't love the bear market,
but I love the bear market connections and energy.
That was awesome chat, by the way.