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Cross-Chain Panel Discussion
Recorded: Sept. 15, 2022 Duration: 1:21:01Space Recording
Full Transcription
level for any messages and value across different chains.
So yeah, basically we provide the framework
that can be used to tap into different cross-chain opportunities
and to build any secure and decentralized cross-chain applications.
That comes to cross-chain compatibility between smart contracts,
when smart contracts in chain A can do a cross-chain call
over the smart contracts in chain B.
Users and protocols can also do the cross-chain swaps
between arbitrary liquid assets.
And I think dSwap, like the solution built on top of dBridge,
was the first technology and the very first protocol
that enabled swap between any liquid assets.
And yeah, basically generic messaging infrastructure
can be used in many different ways to breach any NFTs
and make them interoperable across many blockchains,
as well as to assemble money Legos in a cross-chain scale.
And yeah, very excited to provide this infrastructure to Web3 community.
And we are also very development friendly.
We have the whole set of development tools that comes to SDK,
hard hat plugin, and dSwap API that makes it very easy to build secure
and efficient cross-chain applications.
So yeah, thanks for inviting me here today.
Absolutely, Alex.
And thank you for joining us.
Next, we have Nick Avermov from Symbiosis.
Yes, can you hear me well?
Yes, we can hear you just perfectly.
Oh, good.
Thank you for having me today.
I see a lot of familiar phrases here, like Steve and Alex and Dress, actually.
And I'm glad to see that we are working in, let's say, the same domain
to make or to approach our cross-chain future for not only the Android community,
but also for the developers and the generation of developers.
So in that show, yeah, my name is Nick.
I'm one of the founders of Symbiosis.
Mostly I'm in charge of marketing operations and business development and not code.
So I'm pretty useless guy in the team, you know.
But apart from joking, what we do, we do a cross-chain liquidity protocol.
We have worked on this for one year and a half.
So our no-file is one thing any-to-any swaps across different chains,
both even compatible and non-event compatible.
That's part of the story.
And second part of the story that we provide inter-chain communication,
which once again can be called general mass across different networks,
so that this can be conceived as a liquidity provision to any protocol with any token.
NFT purchase, regardless of this particular NFT collection,
is minted on a particular network, and the user has token to purchase it or not.
Like NFT collection, minted on Avalanche, and we can provide infrastructure
so that users purchase it with V&D or whatever.
And so, yeah, that's pretty much what we do.
And once again, thank you for having me today.
I'm looking forward to have a political and insightful conversation with all of you today.
Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Nick, for joining us.
Next, we have Jason Ma from Axelar.
Hey, everyone. Thanks for your time today.
Yeah, so I'm from Axelar, and Axelar's mission is to create the most secure
and seamless cross-chain communication infrastructure for Web3,
while maintaining our commitment to building truly decentralized structures.
You know, so what we've been working on here at Axelar
is really like two main work streams, right?
One, integrating more blockchains.
So, you know, major layer ones, as well as new app chains,
as well as, you know, on the other side, on the second platform,
really integrating as many dApps into our ecosystem as possible.
So we currently have over 90 applications using Axelar's API
to build cross-chain applications.
And, you know, we're really excited about what our technology is bringing to Web3.
Excellent. Thank you so much, Jason. Appreciate you being here today with us.
Next, we have Dima Brook from XP Network.
Yeah. Hi, guys. Glad to be here.
Well, I represent XP Network multi-chain NFT bridge.
We're probably the biggest NFT bridge in the industry.
We connect more than 20 chains.
Most, a lot of those are non-EVM.
So we deal with multiple product calls.
And we support multiple token standards.
And we all see that there are many solutions for fungible token bridging,
but very few for non-fungible tokens.
And you guys probably know, those who support non-fungible tokens,
that it's much more difficult to transfer NFTs than fungible tokens.
Because fungible tokens, you just have a contract which is a ledger
of how many of those tokens this or that owner has.
But for NFTs, you also have to support the contract logic sometimes,
if it's a game, metaverse, or something similar.
Or at least you have to support metadata across multiple chains,
so that the assets are properly displayed and used.
Because not all NFTs are just images or videos.
Some are used as keys, like access keys, or even controllers for IoT devices.
And I think at the moment, we are the front line of this technology.
And we also keep building, we keep joining more and more blockchains.
Like on a monthly basis, we join from five to, well, around five new blockchains.
It depends on the complexity of the protocol that they're using.
And at the moment, we support more than 20.
And by the end of the year, we are going to approximate 30 blockchains.
For many of the chains that we support, we are the only NFT bridge they have.
And therefore, we already received 16 grants from different blockchains.
We only didn't receive grants from Ethereum, BSC, and Polygon.
Most of the other chains that we support, we received grants from the chains.
So first of all, they trust our technology.
And second, before we even receive the grant money, they check that it works.
And only then it's released to the public.
Thank you for having me.
It's a real pleasure.
Absolutely, Dima, and thank you for joining us today.
And last but not least, Vladimir Tokomorov.
He is the co-founder of Rubik.
He'll be joining us again in just a little bit.
He's having some technical difficulties right now.
So he'll jump in in a little bit and participate in this conversation today.
So without further ado, let's dive right into it.
So, you know, there are, you know, Web3, DeFi, right?
These are all buzzwords that the general public is now just starting to hear.
Cross-chain as a DeFi service.
What do you guys see as the prospects of cross-chain really affecting decentralized finance?
And what kind of impact is that going to have on the industry?
Let me start today with Serang, because SushiSwap is one of the largest decentralized exchanges
in the industry.
Would you like to give us your insights?
Yeah.
I mean, like we actually wanted to look at some data.
And that cross-chain narrative.
But what we have seen is like before the cross-chain narrative itself, right?
Things were quite isolated and it was actually a lot difficult to create cross-chain apps.
And it's still actually not very easy because a lot of security conditions that you have to take care of.
But going forward, we have seen like, you know, like different kinds of solutions popping up.
Like a lot of them you could even see in the panel, which are doing like quite good work.
And those are kind of DeFi as a service.
So at least from where we are coming, we are at the consumer side where the other people
who are building this bridge infrastructure is at the producer side.
And we are really actually want to kind of, you know, use and consume as many producers as possible
because that gives us good coverage.
So we're also looking in different kind of services that could help us do that.
So I feel like in the prospect side, it enables our users to basically connect through all the
deployments that we have.
Because at Sushi, we had seen like different fragmentations happening.
And defragmentation is still there.
But what it's easy is like as a service, you could easily go from one place to another,
which makes it very intuitive for the user being in the same UI.
And the other part is the visibility, right?
So if let's say you could get a native token on like an arbitrary from Ethereum,
it basically enables more volume.
So that's what we have seen that users are actually using it as a service.
And you don't actually see that you're using cross-chain for you.
It's just a normal thing.
So for us, it's kind of, you know, consuming all this DeFi services by the producers or,
you know, like such as different kind of bridges and cross-chain solution.
Perfect. Thank you for, thank you for that input.
DeJune, do you have something that you'd like to add to that?
I think for the future decentralized finance, the cross-chain would be a very key component
and a very important infrastructure for us, especially when we see multiple different chains,
technologies that emerged. And after Avalanche, other layer teams, blockchains,
and recently we hear about SQI and other very well-known new public blockchains.
I think one of the most important things is the connectivity, which means, you know,
those different public blockchains, they can interact with each other and the aggregation can
be aggregated to support one business purpose. And the messages, they can router to different
public blockchains to trigger the different smarter contracts. So I think that the connectivity is
always the major theme starting from the internet age, because, you know, internet is about connectivity
and the blockchain and the cryptos, they are also siloed in value today, just like the traditional
finance. But what we need to do is to connect them together to make sure the value can flow from one
chain to another freely in a very short period of time. You know, today, our cross-chain speed is about
one or two minutes, even if you are trying to cross-chain some assets from a non-EVM compatible chain to
another public blockchain, or even you want to make the transfer like from multiple different chains
into one chain, the speed is about one to two minutes. So speed is very important. And the second is the
the aggregation of the liquidity, because the DeFi is everything about liquidity. If we look at the DeFi
components today, or the DeFi protocols today, we hear about duty swap, we hear about
a compound, the loan protocols, but the extent of all of those DeFi protocols is about liquidity.
So I think we need to focus on the liquidity first. And today, change has aggregated about 70 billion US
dollar value of liquidity. In one point, when users, they want to swap from token A to token B,
we can pull the liquidity from all of those liquidity on different chains in different DAX,
and then we can serve this type of high premium service, and provide the smallest, the slurping.
Thank you. Absolutely, perfect. Steve, I hear you'd like to jump in. Now, I want to remind all our
panelists, if there is any time you want to jump in and give your thoughts on something,
please feel free, but you can cut me off as I'm about to call on somebody. So
thanks for that. I think DJ brings up a very valid points there. Because, you know, Seabridge as an
infrastructure provider, as a bridge within the ecosystem, like we have a pretty good pulse
of the ecosystem, how it's moving, how it's trending, how it's developing. So we saw a demand for first
starting off with asset bridging earlier in 2021. And then as more projects came in with their
multi-chain ambitions to expand, starting with fungibles, and then we saw a spike in requests
for NFTs. And then, but more recently, it's been a lot more about interoperability. So we see about
maybe 5% of the projects, you know, requesting specifically supporting that. And, and we're
blown away by sort of some of the creativity, as well as the use cases that we're seeing. So for
example, one of the key NFT projects that we're working with at the moment, you know,
the integration they're looking at is, you know, allowing their NFT marketplaces to basically,
you know, lock up their NFTs on one chain and borrow against that on another chain, like, you know,
on BNB. Or we're also seeing DEXs that allow users to basically swap across multiple chains
from just one chain. And there's a project called Chain Hub that we've incubated that's doing that.
So the use case from like yield aggregators, we're also seeing where they're managing multiple
blockchain vaults from a single chain. And so it's sort of like, it's, it amazes that sort of this
seeing the spectrum of use cases. So that's sort of our view as an infrastructure provider. And,
and I think it's very encouraging. Thanks. Yeah, I helped jump in here. So, you know,
with Axler, we're seeing exact same thing that Steve is saying, you know, the question is really
no longer like, do we want to build cross chain use cases, cross chain functionality? It's saying,
everyone's saying we do, but who should we use? And is this solution secure, right? And, you know,
with Axler, one of the reasons why we're seeing so many projects building on some of us
is people really appreciate the fact that we are very decentralized. And I think it also helps that
we are obviously compatible. And there is a lot of momentum towards the cosmos ecosystem. But you know,
just like Steve mentioned with message passing, the ability to now pass instructions, as well as
an asset with an asset, this opens a whole new world of possibilities, right? You're able to now
build these true cross chain applications that, you know, can combine multiple functionalities
together to massively improve user experience as well.
And just really quickly, like, all the speakers raise a really great point. But what I've seen
in the interoperability space is that all the use cases are kind of split into two categories. And
like most of the bridging technologies and interoperability protocols are solving two different
issues. One is like how to efficiently transfer value or liquidity, and how to aggregate liquidity across
different chains. And other direction is like how to transfer data and any seamless cross chain calls.
And what we what we are focused on in the bridge is to enable very secure and efficient transfers of
value and messages simultaneously. Because we really think that like cross chain liquidity transfer is not
bad. Because whenever users or protocols are moving liquidity from chain A to chain B,
they got to do something is liquidity, like provide liquidity in just protocol, or open position at
perpetual market or like that can be any complex cross chain interaction. And many existing interoperability
protocols do not allow to perform like complex transactions. And because like the message that is
passed between chains should encode arbitrary set of transaction calls. And this is like one of the areas
that we kind of open in the bridge to let any protocols to perform any complex logic. Because let's say,
my bad is that that like interoperability is needed for money Legos. And money Lego is like one of the most
powerful concept of DeFi. And we've seen many good money Legos that were built within one specific chain,
like curve and convex, or other and down. But so far, we haven't seen money Legos built on a cross chain
scale. That's why we need to have interoperability layer that allows to transfer liquidity and message
simultaneously. And we see first attempts from teams for trying to innovate and build like the very first
cross chain applications and cross chain protocols. And I think that in the very near future, we'll see more
and more and more use cases when where developers will combine DeFi protocols and a cross chain scale.
Because let's say when we have like, decentralized stable coin, really the stable coin may open up
position at perpetual market in order to maintain its back. But if we have interoperability layer that
product may choose what perpetual market will get will provide the better funding. And this will enable like
new capital efficiency. And yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing like all the cross chain protocols
and applications that we build during the next year, utilizing any of the interoperability layers that we have.
Excellent. Thank you, Nick. Dima, do you other of you have anything to input?
I would say that, um, so from, from what we, from what we have heard already, uh, the only thing that
I want to also emphasize is that the experience, uh, or the industry is out of my goal here, because,
uh, what taught me in particular, like the boom of ISO projects and back to 2016, 17, and so on, so forth.
Uh, yes, everybody talks about innovation, about processing, about mounting, whatever. But the idea
is to make the experience when you're working with different device protocols, as small as working
with, I don't know, food delivery service or, uh, right-handing service that we have in the web too.
So idea is that not to somehow cannibalize some of the experience, uh, on the user experience,
one of fostering innovation. So that's what in particular we are trying to achieve at Symbiosis,
while being in search, making it so on, so forth. But all the, all those being able to agree with
all the speakers, especially Alex and, uh, Jason.
Well, our solution, uh, our solution is mainly built about NFTs and SFTs. Uh, we're not building a
fungible token bridge. So, uh, we're not really about so much DeFi, but basically without NFTs and SFTs,
there is, uh, you don't have goods to sell. So basically fungible tokens is like money in the
crypto world and NFTs and SFTs are the goods that you can buy and sell. And, um, it is, um, it's very
sad that many people use NFTs and SFTs just as, uh, tools for speculation, uh, which is not the purpose
of those tokens. The purpose is instant, uh, registration of ownership or passing ownership from one user to
another in a decentralized way. So in a way, what we are building is the market for moving, uh, ownership
between chains and, um, acquiring new user bases, um, on different chains, on different protocols.
So, um, I think this, this accompanies everything that all the other good projects that are present here
are doing. And this is something that the future of, uh, crypto industry cannot live without. So
it's great that you can have so many currencies, but then you have to buy some goods for those
currencies. And this is what we are concentrating at. Excellent. Thank you everybody for your input.
You know, I wholeheartedly agree with you all. I think that the, the future of DeFi, um,
um, is going to be very complicated to build all of this, right? That's one of the reasons why,
uh, at Rubik, we're, we're leveraging all your guys' hard work and kind of, um, putting it together
in a comprehensive package that is forward facing to users, uh, for, you know, different applications.
Um, no one person can hope to build, you know, everything. Um, and, and every single one of your
projects is, is working on some unique aspect of the industry. Um, and we're so proud to be working
with all of you guys, you guys are doing some excellent work out there. Um, and thank you for
your insights on that. Um, let's move on to the next question here. Now this is with regard to
interoperability for DAPs for decentralized applications. Um, what do you guys see as the
prominent use cases, um, and who would you consider to be like major providers of this? Who do you see
stepping up? Do you see, do you see web two companies moving into web three, some big hitters?
Do you see it being, um, some of these up and coming projects, uh, for the, during this next bull run that,
that will really make an impact on the industry. How do you guys see the interoperability
for cross-chain affecting decentralized applications?
Yeah, I think I personally had a call with, uh, one of the teams behind Eptas and SWE and we
discussed that potential of what we can see in the merging space of web three is what actually
was first in the web two when all different cloud infrastructure merged. And so I believe that,
uh, once we have this, uh, sort of interconnected cross-chain message passing and, uh, actual value
of transferring enabled in a way how clouds working, I mean, uh, AWS cloud or Google clouds,
etc, etc, enabling all those services like Facebook, etc. Then we can see this truly uprise in the, um,
in the locations of, uh, different projects that could go beyond financial services. And there's a
second point I want to emphasize, but I really believe that moving beyond financial services is the
key to somehow, uh, let's say someone's transfer the attention of the user from just like growing,
from, um, uh, trading, uh, going up now to the market, etc, etc, but into making more inclusive
environment, especially for those unbanked, uh, sites and populations in emerging countries like
Africa and a few more. I believe you're probably aware that over 2 billion people don't have a bank account
because they don't have ID, uh, no password, no, no something else. You know, Latin America people,
for many reasons, there is, um, economist today, you know, the circle, and he has a book about this, uh,
it, it's called the quest of capital. And the idea is that people can actually lend, people could have
been lend their property or grow against it or something, but they don't have the spice structures
in the proper way. And that's where, so in the first approximation, it will be all about financial
services still. But when we will see when all the, let's say, uh, content on the internet is structured
in some way or another, like NFT, when we see, right, uh, digital identity and that are still creating
through different networks, seamlessly without being like a specific network, like even compatible
or not to be able to battle. But then I believe, at least I expect that that's, this is what we could see
during the next pool run, the advice of such services. And we together with all those who present from this,
um, Alliance pool, I would say we are somehow contributing to this and, uh, that's really inspiring.
And that's, that's what keeps me, uh, wake up every day. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Jason. Uh, sorry, Alex.
Yeah. I agree with Nick, right. What gets me really excited about are these like real life use cases
that's, uh, coming into play. You know, one of the conversations I had just a few days ago was with,
uh, checkout.com and how our axlers, uh, cross-train infrastructure can actually support their new
crypto payment processing, uh, product. Right. If you think about, you know, things like crypto
payment processing, one of the major barriers up to today is people like might only have a certain
asset on one chain and they might not have like gas to pay for it on one chain. But when you have
like an interoperability solution, you layer on some gas services that allow people to only pay gas
in the source chain, or you can like have people pre-fund gas receivers so they can like
not have pay any gas. Now you can have a really seamless like crypto
payment processing product where a user can check out knowledge is like USDC on one chain,
really like any token on any chain and they might not even have to pay gas. Right. And that is super
exciting and really will open up the possibilities, um, for various kind of e-commerce marketplaces
that would be interested in having this kind of product.
Yeah. I was just going to say that, like, I wanted to suggest a thing together, like how powerful the
cross-chain infrastructure can be and like what layers or what participants of the
rat-free economy, uh, will be influenced by the decentralized interoperability layers.
Because like from the protocol perspective, I think the, uh, best advantage of having the decentralized
interoperability that all protocols become globally accessible. Because before we saw that, like,
smart contracts and, uh, projects had to fork themselves and deploy across different chains,
just in order to tap into user base of other blockchain ecosystems. Uh, but having truly decentralized
and secure interoperability layer, the protocol can become globally accessible. I can have like the
smart contract to be on chain, let's say polygon, and then users and protocols from all other chains
can easily interact with my protocol in polygon. And that also impacts users a lot, especially
in terms of user experience, because I really think that in the near future, like the users will
not need to switch wallets, switch networks. I can use a phantom wallet and I used to, I'm used to be
like a Solana user, right? But I still, from my personal, like, phantom wallet, I can still interact with
any protocol in polygon or any protocol in Arbitrum without the need to switch between phantom and
MetaMask. I just send a transaction to the smart contract of the bridge or interoperability layer
in Solana. And then my transaction gets automatically executed by infrastructure in polygon. And yeah,
because like in VAP2 world, whenever we use the VAP application, we don't need to switch hosting
providers, right? And we never think about like, whether it's Amazon Web Services or Hasna, we just
use internet or VAP applications. And that's some kind of user experience that we will see in the very
near future. And VAP3 as well, because users will not need to know about bridges at all. We're just,
users will just interact with the dApp they want to interact with from any wallet or from any chain
where they have gas token. Yeah. So that's a bit from my side.
Well, I would say like, Alex, you don't have to wait very long.
In 20 days, we're going to launch that for you, at least at Sushi. So all the Sushi products
across all the chains that we support on cross chain will be accessible from each other's chains.
So you just select the chain and the token and the operation. And that's it, you hit one click. And you
know, it does the bridging, swapping, zapping, underlying everything for you on that chain.
And yeah, on the contrary, as a developer of, you know, like things that you guys make,
there's sometimes also a UX lab when it comes to building application natively cross-chain.
So a lot of application also relies upon momentary spontaneous. So there can be some things that you
actually can't do in a cross-chain fashion because that involves some amount of delay, right? So given an
example of polygon, generally, you know, like you have to wait like 50, 100 blocks for that.
So there might be some operations on the other chain that you can't do it. So I still feel there
are some limitations that cross-chain would go. It's not like, you know, like a silver bullet or
just deploying like sushi on one chain and accessing liquidity globally. And there are, if that actually
happens, that also, you know, breaks some of the mechanism, let's say on liquidations, right? If you have to
like flash for this liquidations, you couldn't do it because cross-chain swaps kind of applications
or, you know, messaging, it's not instant. It's just like traveling from, you know, a different country
involves cost and time. It's not like, you know, you can easily arbitrage, let's say something like
gold from different countries because you can travel. It does involve some kind of, you know, delay and
cost that also users and the data developers have to take care of.
And I hope that sushi will be really good trendsetter and we will be showing a good example for all other
protocols on how the data can become globally accessible. And hopefully all other protocols will
reach out to all of us and start using the interoperability layers that we that we all are building.
Oh yeah. Well, that, that is definitely going to be us for sure.
Um, you know, we're, like I said, you know, we're, we're, we're very happy to, um, kind of leverage
all of the, the amazing updates that you guys are bringing to the industry with regards to interoperability.
Um, I mean, we're just really focused on, on making it easy for users to interact with what you guys are
building. Um, so it's very, very exciting. Yeah. So if I can add comment, I think the,
I think you brought up an interesting question about seeing, you know, are there, you know, use
cases or I should say communities or users coming over to the web three space, you know, we're seeing
this, um, uh, firsthand with brands that you would recognize with social media companies, um, whether
they're based in Asia, but more interestingly, we've been seeing, um, game companies that would
you recognize from, uh, playing on place PlayStation or your Nintendo switch, uh, where these, some of
these game companies with over a hundred million in annual revenue that are already exploring,
how do they get into the NFC space, things like that. And it's interesting because
they, they come to come with this affinity towards a specific geographic region of the world.
So if it's like Asia, you know, there's a specific, uh, number of change that they were
already sort of very interested in so on and so forth, but quickly once they sort of establish
how this thing works or, you know, they're further down the line in the development, they're already
looking at an understanding the, the sort of the multi-chain ambition, right? So how do they go from
point A to B? How do we transfer their NFT? So we, there's a utility there. So it's, uh, it's interesting
to see the transition and, and I think you will see more of this, uh, news coming forward.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've been a big proponent that, um, games are really going to
drive adoption of web three. Um, you saw gaming drive adoption in web two with social media. Um,
I've said before, you know, I knew people who would have never, uh, signed up for Facebook,
but they were brought into it because of Farmville, right? So like their gaming is very powerful.
Working towards tangible goals is a very powerful tool, especially when you wrap it up in a,
in a neat package that kind of gets that dopamine hit for people. Um, it's not too dissimilar from,
from gambling gaming. Um, so I, I do see gaming companies playing a huge role. Um, and, and with the
adoption of NFTs for micro transactions and in-game items and, and in-game currency,
things like that, having a, a huge network effect on, on drawing new people into the industry.
Um, now, you know, talking about, um, you know, cross chain and, and, and integrating it
into decentralized applications. What are the pros and cons that you guys see in your development
in this regard? Um, you know, what could you give us some insight on the pros and cons?
I can go first. You know, one of the things we're really excited about here is, you know,
um, the next generation of like cross chain wallets being like a super app, similar to like a WeChat or
Revolut experience where you can have integrate a lot of these cross chain applications and functionality
right within the wallet. So then in a non-competitive user, like, you know, your mom or grandma,
they can just download this wallet from the app store. And without having to like, you know,
know any other websites or know any other applications can just stress that right within
the wallet, you can, you know, swap from any token to anything, take out a loan on one chain.
And, you know, do all of those like deep by application that you're only used to doing today on
single chain, but right within the wallet. And as a user, you never actually even have to leave
the wallet and it can access the benefits of all the web through right in one place.
Yeah, I think, I think wallets and having cross chain functionality natively integrated into it is
absolutely going to be key for mass adoption. Um, you know, I've said before, people don't really
need to know how something works. They just need to know how to use it. Um, so making it accessible
for, for grandma or somebody to, to just download it really easily off of their smartphone,
and, and really jump into this new web three environment is, um, is going to be absolutely
key. Um, anyone else would like to weigh in, uh, Steve?
I'd like to also say that, uh, the thing with wallet is actually important because I believe that, uh,
everybody see that wallets like digital wallets becomes, uh, sort of ultimate digital identity.
And with, uh, like it's a place of credit history,
history of your interactions with different DeFi protocols, et cetera, et cetera. And it's,
it's really, uh, it's really with the unifying and, uh, like, like SMS technology or like email
technology, instead of being tied to specific, uh, specific ideas, like Apple, everybody has Apple
ID or I don't know, Google ID or whatever, instead of being like tied to the proprietary guys, uh,
proprietary companies, you have a unified thing to access any service, at least in the future,
because we're still in development mode for this. Uh,
yeah, that's, uh, did, are you, are wrapped up or your mic cut out? There you go.
Sorry, can you, can you feel me? Yeah, your mic cut out for a minute. Could you repeat that?
Yes, yes, yes. I was just saying that I believe that wallets is the crucial infrastructure for
the adoption because it replaces, uh, proprietary identities like Apple ID and some others. So it
began to unify digital identity for users. Uh, for the challenge, because the question was also
about challenges that we face while developing what we do, I would say that, uh, in my office, we see,
let's say, um, we see, so what, lots of potentials, like adding more networks more spontaneously, like
adding each network per week or something, especially even compatible because it's not the case. Uh,
it's not technically like too hard for us to add as many as we can, but, uh, we need to set priorities
here. Plus given some emerging networks, we need to take care about security first. So I would say that
we are pretty cautious. So the challenge is that we are being pretty cautious because, uh, bridges
and, uh, solutions like colors, like in the chain, that's general best in data protocols, uh, decks,
and so on the whole being checked every single group. So we're trying just to be as cautious as we can
potentially. And I believe the rest, uh, the rest here in the, in our room chat today is also trying to be as
as cautious as eventually we can. Uh, for us, yeah, for us, the, the challenge has been, I think
everyone could probably agree that this entire space moves extremely fast. So it's sort of like
keeping up with, uh, the needs of the ecosystem. Right. And then I think first starting out with the
fungible VRC 20, then the, the 721 entity and, and as more, uh, you know, projects requested to go
interchange native, you know, there's general messages and things like that to be interoperable.
So I think the challenge is like, you can't go to Amazon and just buy any book that explains how
to do this. It's like, you know, you have some extremely smart people working in this space to
make this work. And by the time you write an article about it, it's already late, right.
By two visions or something like that. So our challenge as an interoperability player is that
we want to be able to connect, enable every node to connect to another node, because whether it's going
to be, you know, transferring access, uh, fungible entities or passing messages, uh, that's the goal
that we have. And we started with, uh, to, to streamline these things. And then we started with
supporting EVM compatible things first. And now that we know, as you know, other chains that are not EVM
become growing, we want to be able to support that. So it's sort of like whether we learn another language
language to adapt to this, uh, and to help scale or to keep pace with it. And we, and at the same time,
spending a considerable amount of our time in doing the, uh, research and development has been a, a, a
really fun thing to watch to say the least. But yeah, it's, uh, you never know what, what the next
six months or next year of the development will come. So yeah, that's our review as a, as a bridge
provider, so to speak. Speaking about cons, if I may put a word here, uh, because we bridge so many
non-EVM chains, the standards of everything can be very different from, again, everything we got
used to seeing, uh, in the EVM ecosystem, uh, starting from the way, uh, tokens are minted.
For example, they can, they can be minted outside smart contracts. They can be minted directly
in the user's account, or they can be minted in assets, which are neither user accounts nor contracts.
And, uh, you also have, you have to support all those variations and all those standards.
And some of the chains, they have, uh, such peculiarities that other chains don't even think
about. And also it, it's a challenge how to transfer this without violating the rules of the
chains you're sending from. For example, there's a blockchain called secret network, uh, which has
secret NFTs. If you heard about this. Um, it's, it's, it's, um, not, not every person immediately
understand why you would even want to have a secret NFT. Like what's the use? How would you sell a
secret NFT in a marketplace if nobody can see it? But like I told you, NFTs is not, it's not just a tool
for speculation. It's a tool for instant, uh, securing something. For example, imagine a government
starts issuing IDs or licenses or patents to its citizens. And everybody has access to this
information. Everybody on the planet, uh, probably it's not that secure as everybody would like it to
be. So on secret network, you can, uh, mint NFTs that are only visible, uh, to certain entities,
like to the issuer and to the owner. And nobody else can, can view this asset without the permission
of one of the two. And then the question is, because there's no such standard on other chains,
how do you even transfer this NFT without violating this secrecy? Or do you have to create
the same setup on another chain and, um, transfer to a specific contract that preserves this secrecy?
Well, these are the challenges that we, um, meet on our way. And, and I think it's also important
to understand that the more, uh, globalized this, uh, thing becomes, the more standardized everything
should become for, uh, compatibility between protocols. And it, it, it, it doesn't matter
on what language it's written in rest and E plus plus on solidity or even move. There's a blockchain
that is now emerging, uh, and it will be written in move. Uh, you still have to be compatible with
everyone else. If you want to, uh, join this sort of worldwide trade of assets.
So this, this is what I wanted to say. Yeah. Um, in, in my opinion, like, like while developing,
I generally face like, you know, two kinds of cons or difficulties, because let's say to start with
how the development is actually structured, right? Like, since there hasn't been any, uh, popular,
you know, cross chain native, the app integrations currently, all the people are kind of experimenting
on how we should try to do it. A popular model is, you know, uh, this master slave or the root,
or, you know, like the sub or the child model where you generally have like a contract maintaining
a global state on one of these chains and rest of the, uh, chains and contracts talk to that.
This comes with, uh, additional, uh, costs as well as, uh, time when the user needs to interact with
these dApps, the other major problem that comes while, you know, you get this integrated in your
dApp is the security aspect, right? Uh, we cannot actually, as you know, like DeFi and dApp developers,
we cannot just tie to one of the solutions that is, uh, I would not say a very ideal way to do it,
because we have seen that some of the most assumed secure bridges have been hacked before. And then
most of these bridges have, uh, uh, kind of, you know, upgradeability in there. So you don't even
know that, like, let's say if the current version is safe, will you be safe on Reliant? So I think
like one more problem that what I've been seeing lately with a lot of cross messaging and bridging app
is like, um, they are not opt-in and they are like, they stay like forced upgrade, uh, and
and bring movements, uh, and they update you while you expose your entire app to cross-chain attacks,
right? So you are like, and the thing is, whenever you get like this cross-chain attack, it's just not,
you know, sabotages one network, it sabotages everything that you build around it. Uh, and I'm
even like sure, like going forward, like we would just have like half the number of bridges that we have
right now because the security models that you have to choose, uh, there are, and you know, like
you have to be really strict because your entire future of your protocol depends upon it. So you
have to narrow it down very much, which just leaves very few bridges that you can trust and aggregation
is still not, uh, you know, like smooth enough for you to understand which way to go because you have
to bring in advanced monitoring, like take the Ronin example. Like they didn't even know it happened
like, you know, after like three, four days, I guess. Uh, so the protocols have to be more,
more, more careful on monitoring and, you know, like which way is going, how the upgrade is happening,
what it could mean for us. So, you know, they're like a lot of more things to consider while you
kind of, you know, very cross-chain or, you know, integrated natively.
Excellent. You know, Dima and Serang, you, you guys offer me a perfect segue into this next question here.
Um, you know, do cross-chain dApps need to be united, you know, in, in, in your views,
do there need to be, um, agreed upon universal, uh, protocols for, for everything? What are your
views on that? And do you have any insights on some additional integrative solutions that you or
others are working on right now? Uh, let's see, uh, DJ, would you like to weigh in?
Can you hear me? Yeah, there you go. Yeah, good. Um, in terms of the solution, I, um, actually,
I'd like to explain a little bit about how any swag, multi-chain and change,
authentic bridge, we are building, uh, actually, we're building it on the, the most low, uh, the lowest
layer, which is the signature layer. So we, from our perspective, all the chains, uh, they have one
thing in common is that every public blockchain, uh, standard, uh, they use the, the, a symmetric,
uh, signature algorithm, uh, to sign the transaction. That's the reason we want to build the
interoperability on this layer so that, you know, everything could be compatible with each other.
If we want to connect, uh, a non-EVM compatible chain, we don't need something on the logic layer,
like the smarter contract, but we build it on the signature layer. And, you know,
most of the public blockchains, they use, uh, ECDSA or use EB25519 algorithm as their signature
algorithm. So if we conquer these two, uh, signature algorithms, then we can connect all of those
different, um, different public blockchains together. So this is what, what we have done,
but I have already, uh, seen some other, uh, very interesting solutions like the, uh, ZKC, uh, ZKROLAP,
um, they use, uh, a different way, uh, and, uh, trying to pass the messages, uh, encrypted messages
on different chains so that they can achieve the interoperability. Uh, but, um,
um, but in terms of the security, I think it will bring more risk if you build it on more
like layer. For example, um, if we look at the past two years, most of the cases, uh, I mean,
the hacking cases, um, they are just because the improper arrangement in a smarter contract.
Uh, we, we are, um, everybody in this community, uh, we are a crypto fan. We trust in code and we
basically, uh, we trust in math. So I think math is the only thing, uh, that is unhackable. Uh,
that's the reason we want to build it on, on the encryption layer, on the signature layer,
um, trying to make it safe. Thank you.
Perfect. Uh, Tima, go ahead.
Yeah. Your question was about integrative solutions, right? And whether the app should be united.
Yes. So I think that absolutely yes, because each, uh, app or HD app specializing in its niche
which has achieved some, uh, perfection in what it's doing. And by adding the experience of another
D app in the various sphere, there will be some synergy that will create something more than one
plus one gives two, right? It will be something more than that. And for that reason, it makes a lot
of sense for different D apps to integrate each other. And you are quite right that for that matter,
it also makes sense to create some standards so that it's easy for anyone to integrate with anyone else.
So that you can, for example, as a wallet, you can, uh, simultaneously integrate multiple bridges,
multiple DXs, um, because they're all compatible. And I think, uh, eventually, um, I think one of the
speakers already mentioned that, that it's much easier for the users to use one tool that they're
used to like a wallet, for example, that you can, um, take to any blockchain that you want to interact
with. And actually it's the case that, um, while it's, uh, moving towards that, even MetaMask,
which is very popular in the EVM ecosystem, I've recently learned talking with Algorand that they're
going to support Algorand, which is super, super different from EVM, from anything you know, um, about
EVM. I don't know if any of you guys, um, are familiar with Algorand technology,
um, but, uh, they're really very different from what you're used to. Uh, like for example,
they have, uh, limitations of memory in smart contracts, limitations of memory, uh, per single
user. If you have an asset, you have to stake tokens to, to keep it and so on. And, uh, for bridging,
it's super, uh, it actually creates a separate, um, vector of attack because if your smart contract
has limited memory, what you can do is you can send so many, uh, transactions that you fill this
memory and then your contract gets stuck. So you have to change the entire logic that you are used to
having on all the other chains where memory is, uh, virtually infinite. And you have to then
change everything so that you don't allow the attacker, uh, this vector of attack.
But still you can make it, uh, compatible with everything else. And that's exactly what we're
doing as a bridge. So we still make it possible to, uh, send NFTs to and from Algorand in a secure way,
even though they have those limitations. Still, they're a fast and the cheap blockchain,
and, uh, they're very attractive for some projects that we're currently working with.
So, uh, I completely agree that, uh, inter interoperability is the future for all of us.
As far as I understand at the beginning, most of the blockchains were scared of losing their users.
Um, if there were many bridges and they could go to another chain, but eventually, uh, the biggest
blockchains realized that it's not a threat, it's an opportunity. Imagine, uh, all the countries, uh, kept
their economies only internal. Nobody would trade, right? Whatever you produce, you consume.
But what if you produce more than you can consume, right? Or what if you want to use some
goods from another country? The same thing happens in the blockchain. It's not, you know,
some separate world. It's still something that people do. And on one blockchain, they can make
something that you want to have in your blockchain, but because there is no bridge, there's no way to bring it.
Um, and it's a problem. So totally integration, even, uh, for blockchains that use different protocols
is the future. Excellent. Thank you, Dima. Yeah, that's a fantastic analogy. Um, if you don't mind,
I will, I will steal that from you and I'll, I'll definitely credit you, uh, when I use that in the
future when talking to our community. If you read a little bit of our, if you read our documentation,
you'll find more like this. Perfect. Perfect. Um, so, uh, this is a more pointed question. Um,
I'm going to field this to Sarang first, and then if you guys want, you absolutely feel free to jump in.
Um, now building cross chain dexes, why has it not been that popular among the leading players? I know
SushiSwap is just now, uh, getting into this. Can you give us some insight as to, you know, any,
any, uh, difficulties from a development perspective, or has it just been a similar trepidation,
um, that Dima was just mentioning with, with cross chain? Yeah. I mean, like, uh, first of all,
we actually need to define, like, what do we mean by cross chain, uh, decks? So do we mean like, uh,
uh, decks which just have like, you know, liquid single chain, all the rest, basically mean decks
deployed on these different chains and you could basically, you know, like swap bridge and swap.
Uh, so the later part is something, uh, which is like, you know, very much possible and, you know,
uh, sushi has done that, uh, and you know, you can access that sushi.com.swap and you could,
you could do it right now, but when we talk about, but this still has a problem where, you know,
that the liquidity is fragmented and, uh, the, the experience is, let's say a bit, uh, a notch lower
than what you could have with like a true native cross chain decks, but that still has a lot of
problems and, you know, uh, game theoretical analysis to be solved before it's actually a reality.
As I said before, cross chain messaging and bridges are not a silver bullet for solving the entire
liquidity problem in DeFi, right? There are a lot of difficulties when you have to pair it with decks
because decks are mostly, uh, momentary, right? So by the time you go on the other chain, because it,
it requires you to time, it requires certain amount of time. So like think, think of like, you know,
if you are getting like an iPhone cheaper in the country, but it's based on supply and demand,
by the time you go and fly to that another country, probably the supply and demand might have changed
and you might not get the same rate, right? So these are like, you know, few problems that you actually,
uh, kind of come to when you kind of like, you know, across your native decks, but there are ways to
kind of, you know, uh, go around it, but there, there are other problems that chime in. So let's say,
let's talk about a bit into how cross in MEV would look like, right? So in this case, you're basically
announcing that, Hey, I'm going to do a swap and this is my amount. So, and then that too, the MEV
actually gets a delay. Uh, they could actually front run you and there could be a lot that could
go through this, but you know, somehow you still avoid that and there are ways to do it. So there are
these smaller problems, which basically kind of, you know, group together and make, make it, you know,
like not very easy for us to build it. We have internally, uh, been running some of the POCs
and recently we're trying, uh, we are in, in the process of doing an integration where it basically
kind of does, uh, uh, you know, like a partial cross chain swap, like a partial to native cross chain swap
where the protocol has just liquidity on one chain, but the users will be swapping from another chain
and they'll be using the liquidity on, uh, you know, like the different chain. This sounds cool
and fun, right? But there are some caveats where it takes much longer time. Uh, and you know, like
there is definitely a market for cross chain DEX, but again, even if you have like a true native cross
chain DEX, you would still need DEXs on different chains because that would still need, you know, like
these other DeFi apps have to be composable in the same transactions. Uh, unfortunately there is
like no cross chain, uh, primitive right now that can be, you know, uh, cross chain and also have
a final team in the same transaction. That's, that's yet for now not possible. So that also limits the
amount of things you can do with it. Uh, but still like it doesn't, it's still a lot, uh, big ocean for
the apps to build on top of this tech. Uh, but again, like it's, it's not, not that easy for the problems I
described by not everybody's just, you know, like launching a new, uh, sushi cross chain DEX, which
is native, but we are moving towards that direction for sure. And again, like the second is a bit
concerned, right? Like you do not want this, uh, to kind of be built in a switch that could get hacked
in the future that has some things that could be exploited in the future because now it just not
affects one single chain. It affects every chain and then it's, it's a problem for everyone.
But depending on the solution that sushi stop uses is basically a momentary risk,
even if the bridge gets hacked, it's like a pretty low security consideration, uh,
you know, like, uh, assumption that the user has to take, uh, rather than emptying into a bridge.
And what I actually also see is, uh, bridges, bridges are going to get burned because a lot of tokens
that we use right now are upgradable and they would upgrade to a more cross chain based, uh, you know,
kind of architecture where you can directly use cross chain messaging to bridge like those bridges,
you know, like that token from one chain to another. So you would not need a lot of liquidity on these
bridges. So probably there are like less honeypot targets for the hackers. Uh, so yeah.
Yeah. And just as Sarang explained it really in a really brilliant way. And, uh, I mentioned before that,
like having to decentralize interoperability layer, any protocol may enable or may leverage global
accessibility. And whenever I talk to developers, I always say, you guys don't need to deploy your
protocol across all the chains. You should follow the application centric approach. You just should
pick the one chain that suits your needs in the best way in terms of actual fees, security,
security, stability, food, and promise, uh, compass ability, because like in 95% cases, all the builders
can pick just one chain and then become global accessible. And another 5% relates to projects that
build foundation layer, foundational layer of DeFi. Those are projects or like protocols that require to
have synchronous compass ability, because like bridging protocols enable asynchronous compass ability,
right? And that's sufficient in most cases, but there are many, like there are many protocols,
uh, such as the access lending protocols, rotors and liquidity aggregators where synchronous
compass ability is required. Because in some cases we want to receive price feed from Oracle and then
liquidate position the same block and the same transaction. And that's the main reason why taxes
cannot be cross-chain DAXs in a sense that like DAX is just deployed in one chain, like the state
of the smart contract destroyed in one chain. And then any smart contracts from other chains can interact
with it because there is no way to interact like synchronously. And, uh, yeah, I think we will see DAXs
that are deployed like across different chains, like SUSHI, but still like for foundational layer of DeFi,
there is no way to keep the state in a single chain. And I don't think that this problem could be
solved, um, in the near future. And that's not a problem at all. Again, like foundational layer
will be deployed in every chain where it should be deployed.
Can I also say something? Uh, I think that all this industry is in its infancy. And right now, like you said,
that game industry, uh, catalyzes or pushes forward the technology. Um, right now, uh, what happens is,
it's like finance for the sake of finance in, uh, uh, the crypto world. But I think eventually,
well, because DeFi is basically about, uh, reducing, uh, control from the governments, from, uh, big
global entities, such as banks and corporations, and about instant, uh, transfer of resources from one
account to another. Eventually real economy, like factories, like ports, uh, maybe airlines and other
industries, they will eventually understand that, uh, using DeFi is much faster, easier, and, uh, cheaper
than using traditional banks. And then each one of them, uh, like Alex just said, will stick to one or
another blockchain because they would think that this blockchain is quick, cheap, secure, convenient,
friendly, cooperative, supportive, and so on, whatever the reason, whatever they like, or maybe because
the, the core team is located in the same country where their core business is located and they can just
come and discuss things. And eventually those DEXs, they will be like the banking system, like the
SWIFT that exists right now in the banking system. And then it will make a lot, a lot more sense to
actually transfer assets from one blockchain to another, uh, more than it happens right now.
So this, this is what I've envisioned will happen eventually.
Excellent. Thank you for that insight. Um, now I do, I do want to mention real quick to our audience,
um, something that, that, uh, Steve had said earlier, um, this industry moves very fast. Uh,
everyone wears a lot of different hats, um, has a lot of different responsibilities within their
project. And we're already starting to lose some of our panelists today, uh, because they have meetings
and they have things that they need to attend to. So, um, we are going to do two more questions,
uh, and then we are going to wrap it up for today. Cause I know you gentlemen are very busy again.
Thank you guys for your time today and your thoughts on cross chain. Um, so I'm actually
going to field a question here from our audience. Um, what is your plans for the bear market? Uh,
if it takes, you know, another year or two for us to kind of pull out of this downtrend,
um, are you guys going to just keep focusing on what you're working on, um, and, and continually
engaging with your community and building, um, are you guys taking your foot off the gas a little
bit, um, and, and, and kind of coasting until things improve, what are your guys' strategies
in case we do experience a prolonged downturn in the market?
Colin, I almost laughed when you asked that question, because if you could see the eyes under my,
I mean, the bags under my eyes, you will see that we're, we're, we're slammed, right?
Yeah. Yeah. So for us, it's, it's been really interesting because, uh, during the bull market,
you know, we saw everybody and their mother wanting to bridge, right. For all kinds of
tokens and coins that you've never heard of. Right. And then like, uh, when the bear market
comes and, and then you quickly see who the real players are and these players are the guys who are
building a, you know, for the longterm and they're quickly asking for not just simple,
you know, token bridging, what we, the conversations that we often start with,
but it's a really complex use cases of the general messaging and going across chain.
So we're pretty backed up. Um, I think in the earlier, um, part of the chat, you know,
I was mentioning about, we're adding about three chains, uh, on average on a monthly basis.
And, you know, we're, we're in fact, you know, prioritizing Ruthly as much as we can to support
these ecosystems because I mean, as members of seller network, we're deeply invested into this
system. I mean, our team members been teaching, uh, free solidity classes since 2017 and things of
that nature. So we want to see this ecosystem grow. So, um, we still have a number of projects in the
queue that are very seriously building, um, really heads down. And, and so that's sort of the, the,
the observation that I'm able to see as a bridge provider. In fact, um, you know, using bridge as
a, as a sort of a analogy here is if you look at, you know, the golden gate bridge where we're right
by here in our office is that one end of the bridge, you know, there's a thriving community
of, uh, you know, uh, the folks down in the South. And then the other end is another thriving
community of ecosystem. Now, if you could kind of imagine that as, you know, different layers or,
or destinations, for example, Ethereum or Binance or Polygon, they're blossoming. And there are so
many of these, um, uh, projects that are not really getting the limelight limelight now because they're
so young, but the use cases that they're bringing is, is really another step up or two from the ones
that we saw last year. And, um, so we're also further encouraged by this. So, uh, you know,
we're excited to support them. And, and I think for the entire community will benefit from this
as, uh, as more of these projects come into fruition.
Excellent. Uh, any of you other gentlemen have any input on that?
Yeah, sure. Well, I would support, uh, my colleague's words. Uh, even though we observe
that the token rates are falling, uh, we see more and more demand for bridging, for moving collections
between chains. And we help, uh, migrate entire collections from one ecosystem to another, uh,
for various reasons, because one of, one of the systems was hacked, for example,
and, uh, users are moving somewhere away. And, uh, another chain starts growing and gives even,
uh, grants to the new projects. And then projects migrate to that chain because it's, uh, very interesting.
And they also finance their ecosystems to move their tokens there. And we take active part in that.
And we also, um, integrate more and more blockchains and they seem to become more and more interested
in, uh, in bridges that allow to get assets from other ecosystems. And actually it's, um, it's an
opportunity. Uh, I think that people who, uh, use this ecosystem as a way of, uh, quickly building money,
they maybe will lose some, something, but those who came here, uh, for the long term, uh, they will just
use this, um, time for building something better for polishing their skills in whatever the niche they're
taking. Um, actually I once worked with a German company, um, and they, uh, they never think about
things that happen right now. They have a strategy for the nearest 100 years. I'm not exaggerating.
And then in this, when you, when your, uh, scope of planning is that long, whatever happens right now,
whatever the falls and downs, they're like waves in the sea. You don't really care about them because
when you see the big picture, when you, uh, look globally, you understand where you're going,
why you're going and what you have to do now to get there in 100 years. And then you don't really
care whether it's bear market, bull market, doesn't really matter. Just do well, what you're doing,
do it so that people like what you're doing, that they can use it, that it's convenient, that it's
cheap, that it's reliable, and you don't care about falls and downs, downs and falls. It's not really
important. Just think long.
Excellent. Thank you. Uh, DJ, is there anything you'd like to add or Sarek?
I would say, yeah, I 100% agree with that. I think the matter, uh, it's a bear market or bull market.
Um, it's just like a cycle. And, uh, what we need to think is where we should, where should we be at
when the next bull market is coming? And, uh, what's the next plan for this market? So this is what we
are thinking and that we are trying to prepare ourselves and trying to serve the market when it is up.
Yeah. So this is what I think.
Yeah. What I think is like, you know, you won't be able to enjoy the bull without a beer, right?
And so, uh, yeah, it's, it's like a good time for us to, you know, uh, look back, introspect and,
you know, kind of thinking more in an experimental manner of, you know, uh, how we can make things,
uh, much better actually move fast without actually having a lot of, uh, you know, baggage and breaking
stuff. So I think like, uh, this time is like kind of much more, you know, useful at the development
space where we basically build the foundation for the next bull cycle to come.
Excellent. Uh, wonderful insight from each of you. Thank you guys very much. You know,
at Rubik, we have the same philosophy. Um, you know, regardless of what the market is doing right now,
uh, we see it as an opportunity to continue building, to continue partnering with people,
building what it is that we're building and making it more accessible for businesses to jump
into web three, um, and for making it easy for, for new users to interact with web three, um,
so that they can just jump right in and not have to worry about, um, what chain they need to have
assets on and, you know, all, all of the different intricacies right now that are limiting factors
for mass adoption in the space. Um, we are hoping to, to really, you know, provide a, uh, a comprehensive
package that's easy for businesses and for users to interact with web three.
So that brings me to my last question. Um, I'd like to ask each of you what your thoughts are
on Rubik and what it is that we're building and how you see us as an important aspect of
web three adoption. Uh, DJ, I'll start with you.
Um, I think currently, uh, Rubik, uh, uh, I, uh, I personally have used the Rubik
quite a lot, but sometimes when I try to convert, for example, Ethereum on Binance Smart Chain into,
um, into USDT on Ethereum, uh, it says, you know, that the rate is not that good because you, your
algorithm is, is you, is trying to swap from, uh, from Ethereum into, uh, USDT on Binance Smart Chain.
Instead of Ethereum. Um, so I think in that part, uh, I'm looking forward to the improvements so that I
can use it more.
Absolutely. And we always appreciate feedback like that. Uh, we, we do have a long road ahead of us to
optimize our routing and our path options. Um, and we have more updates coming very soon for all of our
users with regards to that. Uh, Steve.
Sure. I mean, this is a little bit subjective because I think people know that I'm a big fan of
Rubik, uh, because, uh, I mean, we have a working relationship here in full disclosure. And I mean,
we, we, you know, we use our general message passing within Rubik's protocol on Ethereum,
Polygon, Avalanche, and a few others. And the implementation there is to basically maximize the
trade amounts for swaps, right? Uh, under UX. Um, so if there's anything, um, we want to be,
sort of be challenged as well. Um, uh, in terms of, I mean, because the DNA of our founders are
basically coming from PhDs and academia. So, um, we want to be kind of a push to the boundaries to see
what else can be, uh, achievable, uh, from the sort of the tool sets that are not available yet.
Um, at the same time, I like to always encourage protocols to come up with sort of their creative
use cases. Um, so even if it's an NFT DeFi that is, that I've talked to a number of each of them,
find a one way or another to make theirs a little bit more unique and tweak it. So, uh, basically,
um, a personality, so to speak in, in how they use these tools, uh, and how they express that. It
would be interesting. And I think a way to, uh, for Ruby differentiate, uh, as other role players
come into that space. Thanks. Thank you, Steve. Uh, Sareng. Um. My internet just got off,
so I'm not sure what the question is. Uh, yes. I was just, uh, asking for your thoughts on Rubik
and what it is that we're building and, and, and, you know, how you see us, um, affecting change
within the industry. Oh, yeah. Uh, I actually have, you know, like kind of, you know, checked
out your protocol and it was reading through the docs and it really, really, it looks very,
very impressive. And, uh, especially like what I would be much more curious to kind of, you know,
play around much more is like your SDK, uh, because it has, uh, kind of, you know, like a good coverage
of different chains that I would love to try and see on what more I can actually play around.
Uh, and I actually love Rubik cube. Uh, so yeah, that's, that's like an innate love for you guys.
Absolutely. Well, if I see you at, uh, any future conferences, I'll make sure to give you
one of our custom Rubik cubes. Ah, nice. Love that. Uh, and, uh, wrapping up here, uh, Dima,
if you could give us your thoughts. Uh, yeah, well, we also met, um, some Rubik, uh, team members
on one of the conferences in Dubai and, uh, actually it was Sven. And, uh, we had a very
lovely conversation, uh, during the after party there. So I think Rubik team, they're like very
nice guys. And I, I'm really impressed on how many blockchains and DEXs, uh, you guys support.
Um, there are multiple bridges that you also integrated. And I'm sure I actually see an empty
spot on the bottom right corner. And I'm sure this is a spot for XP network bridge because this would
allow you to connect to so many non EVM chains and, uh, bring NFTs to and from those. Cause we are the
only bridge to those chains at the moment. So I'm sure we have a very nice perspective of cooperation.
Absolutely. You know, we, uh, we, we have our, um, NFT widget that enables people to purchase multiple
NFTs and in one go, very similar to like, um, you know, a current e-shop. Um, so absolutely. We'll,
we'll, we'll have, we'll chat more, uh, as we go into the weekend for sure.
Right. Yeah. And we have a JavaScript library that allows you to integrate our solution right into your
wallet with like within one day, probably plus testing a bit. So I guess we, we got to go for
that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, gentlemen, thank you all so very, very much for participating today,
for, for lending us your time and to all of our listeners out there, we had, I think at max around
1600 listeners today. Uh, we still have over 1100. So for everyone listening, uh, sincerely,
thank you for giving us your time today, uh, for being here. And, um, um, if there are any last
minute, uh, alpha that any of you gentlemen would like to give to the people listening today, um,
anything you guys are working on, any, any inside stuff, uh, you're more than welcome to do so right
now. Well, I'd like to thank you, Colin, for a wonderful panel discussion. Um, everybody, uh,
guys who joined here, the speakers, thank you for being so wise and polite and, uh, respectful.
Um, it was really a pleasure being here with you and, uh, hope to meet you in some conferences,
um, in the near future and meet you in person. So thank you for this wonderful panel discussion.
Thank you guys. It was like lovely talking to you and yep. Thanks Colin for having us and the
lovely audience. So, you know, sticking around for such a long time.
Excellent. Yeah. Likewise, guys, I think it was a fun, fun event. And, uh, if any of the projects
need anything with bridging support, NFTs, fungibles, or general message passing,
come check us out at seller network. We'd love to work with you guys. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.
Excellent. Well, thank you again, everybody. So very much, um, to those listening today,
I'd like to remind you, uh, if you go over to galaxy, uh, if you sign up for our discord and
our Twitter accounts, um, and give us a follow on both, you are eligible for an NFT reward today.
Um, so again, thank you to all of you listening. Thank you to all of our panelists members,
uh, DJ from change finance, Sarang from sushi swap, Steve from seller, uh, Alex from the bridge,
Nick from symbiosis, Jason from axilar and Dima from XP network. Um, it was a pleasure having all
of you guys. I, I, I hope this is not the last time I have you gentlemen on to, uh, have a panel
discussion like this. Uh, we're going to try to make this a monthly thing on our end and I'd love to
chat with you more in the future. And I do, I look forward to meeting you guys maybe at a future
conference. Likewise. Thanks everyone. Bye now. All right. Thank you everybody so much for tuning
in. This has been a inaugural opening first episode of our cross chain web three panel series. Uh,
I have been your host, Colin O'Brien. Thank you all so very much for stopping by. And as always stay
happy, stay healthy, stay hydrated, but most importantly, stay cubic. Take care, everyone.
and see you next time.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
