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DAO Trends from MetaFest w/@antonio_paglino
Recorded: Sept. 8, 2023 Duration: 1:40:25Space Recording
Full Transcription
How are you doing?
Can you hear me?
Hello?
Aha, here we are.
Yeah, you can hear me well, right?
Loud and clear.
Nice.
Are you in your olive garden?
I am.
Yep.
We're unlimited salad and breadsticks.
Nice.
Non-stop.
There's so many events taking place like all over the world.
It's, I feel like the tempo has gone up in terms of just events, funding the common, shelling
point, like there's so many happening, Regents Unite.
Yeah, it's actually funny because I would, my sentiment is actually the opposite.
There's more events, but I have less desire to go to them.
Yeah, same.
I have no money either, you know?
And I wonder like...
Well, yeah, that as well.
Yeah, like, oh gosh, it's expensive to travel, stay.
I know like Pete, and Pete was once on my podcast.
It's been over a year.
And he invited me to come to MetaFest, like, almost like when he was just thinking about
the idea.
And I'm like, I'll see if I can make it because I know Croatia is expensive to travel to.
But for you guys, you guys are in Europe, it's just hop, skip and jump.
Well, that's a good point because Northern Europe, it's a hop, skip and a jump, but Southern
Europe, and we could just say like the Mediterranean in general has horrible connections.
And I think this is just how the travel industry is like oriented, is for people coming from
Northern Europe to get to Southern Europe, that's where all the flights are.
That's where all the connections are.
So I actually had a fun, interesting journey to get to MetaFest because I'm in Sicily and
I could feasibly take a sailboat to Pula, like it's direct.
And so this was like one of the motivating factors to continue to develop this concept around
SailDal, which has been kind of brewing for a few years now, ideation phase.
But one of the nice things, and I don't know like where we should start or how you want to
like structure this chat.
But I mean, I can go back to there, I don't know, say circa 2020, 2019, back into the old
crypto telegram chat groups where, you know, you have this like mechanism design or what
were some of the other ones, DGov.
We had this group called Le Grand Joux, the grand game, which was kind of a fun board game
that we would gather around to play.
And we could basically model different scenarios on this generic board game.
And similar to Dungeons and Dragons, you would have a game master.
So let's say we wanted to model what like a buyer region to buyer region economy would
look like.
We could play this game and kind of model it out with different scenarios.
But so these are just kind of the early days when the last bear market was not much to
How long have you been in crypto for?
Because I came in the bull market and ever since I've come like after 2021, it's kind
of been like bear.
And now we are in extreme, extreme bear market.
So I my my story is interesting because I got a I got a degree from university in environmental
and labor economics.
And I graduated in in the fall of 2008, which also coincided with the great financial crisis.
So I was motivated at an early age to try and reconfigure the global economy.
And so I've been working in, I would say, my first Internet startup was in college when
I was 19, basically signing up people for text text message coupons.
So it's basically a text message based coupon for for college kids.
And so my first foray into into tech startups and which is funny because we actually Sybil
attacked the network, because when you sign up the first when this was, I don't know,
two thousand five.
So people were still paying like twenty five cents per text message.
And the only way I could convince my friends to sign up was basically when you signed up
for free, you would get a welcome coupon, which was like a basically a free Domino's pizza.
So what we would do is there was four Domino locations in our in our in our in our town.
And so we would go to each one and redeem our free pizza.
So we got like, I don't know, 20 something pizzas and that was that was the funny game
to play.
And then fast forward after college, my other first real job was doing podcast production
for a company doing online education specifically for Mandarin Chinese.
So I was in Beijing working out of a home office for this guy who later went on to create
the Saito network, which is which is a blockchain that's got pretty crazy fundamentals.
So, yeah, back at this has been a continuation.
So I don't know when I like I got into crypto crypto probably around 2014 after having having
done Web 2 at the time.
I was doing a social mobile app in Shenzhen for basically community dinners.
So this at the time in in Shenzhen, it's very difficult for Chinese people to socialize,
to make friends.
Everybody's from out of town.
It was just a brand new city built in a fishing village.
So how Chinese people socialize is through dinners.
So we created this fun platform where people could could join, create and these these community
dinners.
So that was a fun experiment.
And then when I got back to the U.S., to California, that's when I started working on
my first, I guess we could call it refi blockchain protocol, which was for a decentralized rainwater
utility.
And I did that for about four years.
Unfortunately, the VCs didn't get it.
They didn't get it then.
They don't get it now.
So I've had to re reorient to going deeper down the stack.
And now we're focused on community building around land land access and how that relates
to setting up basically the the actual regenerative economy.
So it's been it's been an interesting ride.
But, you know, having been through so many rodeos and having lived in both
the the U.S. Silicon Valley and the Chinese Silicon Valley and just seeing kind of the
hype cycles and the tech cycles and as well as like money.
What does money even mean?
That's that's been critical to, you know, navigating this space, because I feel like if you're just
coming new to the space, it's got to be so disorienting.
There's so much so much noise.
And then we get to this part of the cycle where it's just completely dead, which is the
perfect time to be making noise.
And but for me, it just it all seems very obvious in terms of where we're going and
how we're going to get there.
So it's it feels much more like flowing downstream instead of trying to fight.
Fight the avalanche.
Yeah, no, it's interesting.
You've had a long journey and you're still continuing, which is great because a lot of
people I know or I've been like reading so many blog posts, people quitting, they're done
with it, like, you know.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think you need to have that conviction and like why you are here.
And and I think that helps you stay on.
And obviously, you need to find other ways to keep yourself entertained and sane while
in the bear market.
David, but yeah, it's interesting.
Yeah, well, yeah.
So, well, I'll just go back to MetaFest because these are friends.
These are friends that we've been having these online discussions for many years.
And if we rewind the clock back to, say, 2000, 2019, when kind of the first DAO framework
started to emerge and so, you know, we've got like old old school like DAOists who, you
know, it's difficult to meet in real life.
So when when the MetaFest opportunity came up, it was like, yes, this is definitely because
that was the only that's been the only conference I've attended all year.
Yeah, I know.
And because I knew I knew that was like, I can't miss that one.
But for traveling around the world, I think we have one guy come in from Australia, but
he was already traveling through Europe and then another guy from New Zealand.
So it was there was people coming in from all corners.
But of course, it's like, you know, crypto is still too Eurocentric.
And so getting on the periphery, getting out of like Paris, getting out of Berlin, going
to the periphery where there's like more space to think, to be creative, to to not be so hampered
by what do what is the dominant money making objective, you know, that's that's right.
So just to give a little bit of a background in 2022, which was just last year, there was
MCON.
So MCON was is supposed to be like the DAO gathering, like everybody who is in the DAOs
need to be there and somebody informed me about it.
And at that time, I was in the middle of doing my research.
So it took place in Denver and I ended up going there and I met Pete there.
And before that, he had been on my podcast.
We talked about political ideologies and how that maps out to DAOs, because, you know, like
what ideologies do DAOs adopt, like looking at our current government structures and stuff
like that.
And so I really wanted to be in Croatia and be there among like minded people who are
in the space, who are building DAOs and communities and, you know, figuring out the coordination
game.
Unfortunately, I couldn't make it.
So I'm so glad, Antonio, you were there.
And we love to get the highlights.
What happened at the MetaFest?
You know, like what were the key?
What didn't happen?
Well, I, well, I'm pretty confident to say that there will be a MetaFest too.
Just because the, like Pete and the core organizers there were able to pull off like a really great
event.
And it was, you know, very much kind of a group group effort and it didn't feel heavy.
It didn't, it felt very lightweight.
And I think that's maybe more of the DAO ethos where it was.
Yeah, we did have like an outline.
We had a physical space that was amazing.
It was this like abandoned fort that was.
So I'm, you know, I'm, there's so much history to uncover because Northern Croatia actually
was a part of the Italian quote unquote empire.
And then after World War II, then it was redistributed.
So it was, I was, I was kind of surprised to see that everybody there, the Croatians are
kind of Italian is a second language, but it's kind of like a begrudging second language
where they're, they can speak it, but it's not like, you know, the colonizer language.
Um, so the, the, the physical space where the event was, was on this peninsula right
on the water.
Uh, and then next to that, there was a camp campground.
So I, I stayed at the campground, which I really enjoyed because it was also like height
of the tourist season.
So I'm, we're, we're in the campground and it's kind of like a little mini, like when we
say camping, I think it was, uh, from say North America, we have an idea of camping and
it's very much like in nature, in the wild, like you're kind of roughing it.
Um, but this campground, European style was very much, uh, much more comfortable and it
was almost like a little city in and of itself.
So it was kind of funny to go spend time in the campground where we're just like everyday
society, blue collar, normal families, just like people enjoying their summer.
And then we would go walk 10 minutes, um, into the event site, which is like, you basically
had to walk through like some woods to get to the abandoned fort.
So you're kind of going through this liminal space, this portal and you get into this, like,
uh, I don't know, like if you've ever gone to like, I wouldn't say like a haunted house
or something where there's like a carnival happening inside, but the, the space where it's
kind of normally where they have like, uh, techno parties, like raves.
Um, so there was definitely that vibe as well.
And, um, yeah, so it was just like a really cool mix of being with, being in, in like our
really specific niche DAO community, but also being like, we, we would have, cause we could
just go meet up at the bar in the, the campground before the event started.
So we would basically be, be moving between the campsite and, and the event site pretty
seamlessly, which was great because the event, uh, kind of got kicked off at 2 PM every day
and then went till, I don't know, uh, 2, 2 AM.
And, uh, I think I will give like, it was crazy.
Like, yeah, I think, uh, it was so casual and, uh, in the middle of the night, people would
just, it took place in a school and so they would just gather up at 2 AM at the school
for random stuff.
So, yeah, no, it's amazing.
Yeah.
I could, I can totally get the vibe, like totally chill and just free flow discussions.
I bet.
Right.
Like lots of, well, so that, that was the, that was the other really, uh, the, uh, the
other awesome thing was that, uh, Pete did a really great job of like basically setting
the first two days of talks.
So all of those talks were like hand selected to kind of continue and feed into every other
talk.
So oftentimes when somebody gives a presentation, they have to spend half their talk, just kind
of setting up what they're talking about.
But because of the speakers and the lineup, by the time I got on stage, I had already like
half of my talk was already done because it already had been kind of, uh, talked about
by previous speakers.
So there's like a really nice segue coherence to, to the individual presentations.
And then there were, uh, workshops, um, very, uh, kind of unconference style in the back.
So you have like presentations in the front and they did a great job of like live streaming
all that stuff.
Um, so, so people could still tune in and it was a small, like, I mean, there wasn't, I
don't know, a hundred people and so it felt very intimate and also just a few people that,
you know, you talk to online and we're constantly like, uh, how would I say?
We're constantly iterating on these, on these ideas and on these memes, like what, what it
is that we're talking about that makes sense beyond just one, one person.
And so there was, um, a lot of like face-to-face communication, which, which is really important.
And, and I think moreover, it was just, uh, kind of like a respite, like it was a reinvigoration,
uh, coming out of like a long, like it's been a long year and a half, I think since, uh, since
Tara, the Tara Luna crash and then the FTX crash.
And then it just seems like it's just one big dumpster fire on top of another versus,
okay, what is it that we actually care about?
What is it that we're trying to accomplish and where do we want to go?
And just getting back to those basics just felt really, really good.
And yeah, so that was kind of like the overall, um, experience.
And I think, uh, yeah, I can go into more details.
I'm sure you have some follow-up questions and can kind of just, uh, see what I can remember.
So what were your key learnings?
Like, what is it that, what did you discover that was new in the DAO space?
New in the DAO space.
Um, well, Dr. Nick gave a nice presentation on the second day.
Uh, and then, uh, the HATS protocol came out.
So that's interesting.
I think we're still in the funny phase of, we have both digital communities and physical
communities, and we're trying to wrap these in a DAO container.
And so how do we have that flexibility, um, between those, those two, like, liminal spaces?
And, um, in terms of, like, DAO tooling, because it wasn't so much like, hey, this is what we're
working on.
This is our product.
It was more of a general, like, roundtable discussion, um, that was just constantly happening.
So I think there was some interesting discussions on, like, reputation, um, and as it being,
like, more relational.
So reputation as relation, uh, instead of just, like, uh, more of a top-down, this is your
score kind of thing.
Um, and let me see what else.
Yeah, there was just some really wild topics.
Uh, we did, there was a nice meditation.
I think it was, like, get, getting the, getting the DAO is together, um, with a heavy focus on
regeneration and refi.
I think that was, like, also another thing that I was grateful for was refi and regeneration
wasn't just, like, a side topic.
It was, it was the first day.
It was, it was, uh, like, a really big focus.
And so, yeah, I mean, from, um, how do we model DAO?
Like, what, what is a cultural DAO?
I think that was probably the most important learning for me was, what is the, if you can
get the cultural foundation set, then it's much easier to put the technical, uh, solution
on top of that.
So I feel like getting the people together for the MetaFest was, like, kind of, like, a
summoning of a DAO, where we, we had, like, similar, um, like, imagine, like, a real, real
world DAO onboarding session.
And, um, so the other thing that we did, and this is more of just, like, a personal, um,
project was the SAILDAO, so we were able to actually get a few people together and, and
map out, like, what it is that, that we can, we can do.
So if it's, and of course, like, when you're doing these brainstorming sessions, uh, online
versus in person, you're going way faster and covering a lot more ground.
So, like, two hours of brainstorming in person is, like, two weeks online.
And, and so, I mean, I guess, you know, the, you get this big burst of energy and, and
everybody's really excited and then everybody goes back to their, back to their homes and
then everything kind of settles down.
But it's, like, what actually stuck?
And so I think we're in that phase now where, like, how do you keep the energy moving forward
from all of the great connections and the, and the interactions?
And so I think, for me, the biggest takeaway was just how do you model DAOs in person and
then bring that into the digital space, which is kind of backwards thinking where it's, you
start the DAO first and then you, you make your in-person meetup.
Yeah, I feel like forming the community and just having the values and the culture set
is so important.
So I know there are, like, two, two thoughts to DAOing.
Like, one is, like, go completely on chain from day one.
And the other is, like, let's form the community first.
Let's have the people in place.
Let's have the right set of people and then set the governance layer on top of it, you
know?
So what, what was the take with, like, with these approaches?
Was there any discussions around what's the first step to DAOing?
Was there any discussion around that?
Ooh, there might have been.
So what I, what I remember is that people were, were offline a lot.
Like, nobody was looking at their phones.
Like, it was a very much, uh, deep connection of just, like, just people talking.
And I think that was really nice where you, we actually had the space to connect, um, at
the human level.
And there wasn't, like, this, um, like, need or itch to, like, um, to go back, to go back
online.
Um, so I think there was something there with that, that feeling of just, like, okay, we're
making a human space and we're getting grounded in there.
Um, there were a lot of, uh, interesting discussions.
Like, some of it was a little too meta.
Like, after, like, you know, three days, 12 hour, 12 hour days of, like, just, like, deep
intellectual conversation.
Um, at some point, you, like, just have to turn off.
But, um, yeah, let me, let me think.
Uh, I'm just, like, running through the, uh, rewind in my head of, okay, I'll tell a funny
story because this is, like, uh, um, so, so Peeth had drink tickets and, uh, because
there was, like, a bar inside and it was cash only.
And, and so Peeth had these drink tickets and he, like, set them on the ground or set
them somewhere, like, on a table and, and then he lost them.
So he made a, like, a message in the group chat saying, hey, like, if, if you took the
drink tickets, like, no worries, just, like, you know, bring them back.
But, you know, everybody's, like, really, you know, concerned and, oh, no, like, there's
a thief and turns out it was just one of the organizers put them in for safekeeping.
So I think it's one of these, like, you know, this is very meta DAO, but who has your back
kind of thing.
So, like, we're kind of coming from a very, um, like, game theoretical, like, well, prisoner's
dilemma, like, everybody's, like, gonna try and steal from you.
And, and that's kind of, like, our default assumption.
But in reality, like, people are actually trying to look, look after, look after you.
And so I think that was kind of something that was, uh, was, like, really heartening.
Like, okay, yeah, humanity, like, we can still, you're not going to get robbed blind.
Um, and, uh, let's see, another one, we had a funny meme circle session, which was really
interesting, because, uh, I think for me, it was just getting to talk with people about
really, uh, technical things, or, like, you know, DAO philosophy in person.
So it's, like, okay, you've, if people have read, like, a lot of these medium posts, or,
like, there's very few people that you can talk to in person deeply and knowledgeably
about these things.
Um, so finding other people where we can have, like, a normal conversation without having
to spend every, like, the whole conversation just trying to get people up to speed.
Um, so I think there's something in there where if you get together, like, a group of
people together who already have a knowledge base, a working knowledge base, that's going
to go way faster than trying to onboard a whole bunch of newbies into a space, which, I mean,
that's, unfortunately, we're still, like, there's still very few people who, like, have deep
knowledge on these topics, because it's so new.
Uh, but I think the power of getting people together in a place where we can have these
deep conversations is, is really powerful.
And, yeah, I, I think that next MetaFest, uh, there will be more, it'll be more DAO, DAO-fied,
if that makes any sense.
Um, so, like, the drink tickets could be NFTs, so.
Yeah, I'm, I'm always talking to people from, who are not in the Web3 space, like, um, I
mean, I, I just recently had a, had to present to a bunch of changemakers who don't know much
about Web3, and I'm always trying to, like, explain to them about DAOs, and, uh, my, my,
you know, my starting point is that it's, it's just a, it's just a community, you know?
Like, like, I don't start with all the technicalities of things, like, so, you know, like, how, how
do you define a DAO?
Like, what, was there any discussion on that?
Like, what, is there a common understanding on defining a DAO?
Hmm.
Well, I, I think everybody there, uh, has had experience with DAOs.
So, people there have had hands-on experience, uh, with, you know, if it's, uh, if it's in
the Ethereum ecosystem, uh, Cosmos ecosystem, I think everybody there has had, like, a lot
of first-hand practical experience doing DAOs.
Um, I will say that there was, um, there was, uh, a friend, she was really interesting.
She had, she was non-Web3 native, but she is, um, she's, um, uh, somebody who had a data
science background who then went into basically meditation training.
So, now she is at the point where she wants to offer meditation training to Web3 teams.
So, I thought that was interesting that more people from different backgrounds are coming
with their unique gift into the space to kind of make it a little bit more complete.
And I think that's what we need more than, more than the technical solutions.
I think we just need to, like, more diversity of people coming from different backgrounds.
I agree.
Totally.
Uh, Wasabi, do you have any questions?
Hey, Deepa.
Hey, Antonio.
You know, uh, I'm, no, I'm, I'm enjoying the combo.
Um, I'm sad that, that, uh, I, I wanted to go to the MetaFest.
Like, uh, I was, um, um, um, uh, I'm a MetaCartel member.
So, I was basically there when they start talking about it.
Um, it was, Croatia is in my bucket list.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm very glad that it came out the way it did because, you know, I had
high hopes on it.
Um, I'm very, uh, I'm very happy to, to, to hear about it.
Well, one of the other interesting things that I, um, cause you're kind of curious, okay,
well, what does Web3 mean to the local community?
And so I was talking with Pete about this as well.
I'm like, oh yeah, are the, uh, are like your friends here, are they excited?
And he was like, eh, they really don't care.
Um, and then there was also, um, I was, so they, they would be like a DJ playing at night
and it would be like, like really loud techno music.
And everybody would just be like, so tired after the whole day of talking that there would
be like one person dancing, but I'm talking to these DJs and like, okay, yeah, like,
Hey, wow, this could really work for you.
Like NFT music.
Like, and so I think there was like still a gap of how to bring this, um, into like,
what is the value proposition to the local community?
And I feel like that's the next step, uh, because we were good at like bringing these
like kind of crypto nomad people, like all around the world coming in and like doing
like their deep dives, um, at these events.
But at the same time, we have to build the bridge, uh, with the local, with the local
organization.
So I think there was like a little bit of the seeds being planted with like the local
Croatian people, like, okay, this is cool.
Like a few, a few Croatian people were, were participating and you could see like, wow,
I never knew this.
This is so cool.
Like I had no idea this world existed.
And I feel like that's common for a lot of places.
Um, but because we've just been so like insular as a tech community and like, it's a niche
community, even within the broader, like software development world, crypto is still a niche.
So I think, um, uh, the, that's another big opportunity, which I think, uh, you know, if,
if MetaFest is in Croatia next year or wherever it is, or, you know, could spin off or, or do
like sub sub MetaFest, whatever, but having those bridges and those kinds of onboarding opportunities,
uh, for the local community to get more, uh, excited and engaged.
And I think that's going to be the next big growth phase for crypto web three and DALS
will be where the, where the impact hits the road, so to speak.
Yeah.
I feel like right now there's such a big barrier to entry just because how complicated
web three is, uh, for the normal people, you know, firstly, they need to have some
sort of cryptocurrency to be able to even participate in this ecosystem.
Right.
Like if you want to mint something, uh, even though now minting is free on Zora, but you
know, I mean, people can buy for free, but you still need to pay the Zora fees, you know,
like things are getting easy, but at the same time, they're still complicated.
Like you need to have the currency to be able to participate in this world.
Uh, so that's, and, and my next point is about refi Cicely, right?
Like you, what is it that you've learned that you would want to take it back home and apply
it in what you're doing there?
Right.
So I think we, we went from kind of like, you have to buy in to cryptocurrency.
And now I think we're entering into the, you earn cryptocurrency or you earn whatever these
alternative value forms are.
And I think that's going to be the next, um, the next transition is that, and that has
been a barrier.
It's like, okay, well, I've got to go like put money in and, and versus actually I can,
I can earn, I can, this is a job.
This is a, a livelihood.
This is a, is a pathway.
So what we've done here with refi Cicely is we've been doing smaller events locally around
permaculture training.
We have one coming up next week, uh, for a beach cleanup.
So when people come and sign up for the event, the NFT ticketing platform automatically creates
them a wallet and automatically mints them, uh, uh, uh, uh, NFT ticket on polygon at no,
at no cost.
Um, so I think this is kind of the, the transition where, okay, the, you know, like, I think a
lot of people just have such a visceral reaction to like, if you say the words crypto blockchain,
whatever, it's like, ah, like, you know, so much FUD or, or whatever heard from the news
media.
But if you just kind of put that in the background and, and make it a little bit more like approachable,
I think that's going to unlock a lot more, a lot more access for a lot more people.
So we've, we're not even like really focusing so much on the blockchain aspect this time.
I mean, it's kind of like people ask questions later.
So the question is, well, what is it like, why should we use NFTs?
Like, what does that mean for me?
Like, I, I'm your neighbor.
Why do I need an NFT?
And then we can get into the, well, public goods and, and, and public blockchains and,
uh, regional economies and, um, you know, sovereignty and like all this opens up that
conversation where instead of, it's like, I'm beating you over the head with these technical
terms, we can actually have a conversation that, that unfolds naturally and organically
over time.
And that's, I think the biggest, uh, the biggest barrier is just time.
And so if we have kind of consistent conversation, consistent, um, activity.
And so for example, right now, people who are coming to help on the farm, as we're doing
the tree plantings, we have a record of who participated so that when the harvest comes
down the line, we could be doing retroactive airdrops.
And this is just like, we're bootstrapping.
So it's not like, Hey, we have a whole bunch of money and we're just going to like pay people
to show up because they won't stick around.
So instead we're saying, okay, who actually believes in the project and who believes in the
values.
And so we're starting from there and then we're putting on the, the digital layer after
that.
And also right now we've been experiencing like really intense fires, which has always existed
here.
Uh, but it's gotten more intense in the past few years.
And now Palermo, the capital city, um, had a really close call, uh, in August.
So now people are starting to wake up and it's not one of these things where, okay, we're just
going to go and protest the government.
We're getting to that point where people are starting to ask other questions.
Okay.
Well, if the government can't solve this because they can't, and people are seeing that, what
other options do we have?
And that's a whole new, uh, that's a whole new perspective that we didn't have.
And if we look back, you know, Bitcoin was a result of the great financial crisis and the
bailouts happening.
And because of that crisis, we get these kind of technical innovations that go from zero to
one.
And so I think we're kind of at that same tipping point now where the legacy economy,
the legacy institutions are just getting more and more unstable and people are getting
more and more concerned.
And the awareness is shifting, uh, to what other possibilities are there.
So I think the next cycle, we're going to see a lot more use cases just in terms of
people self-organizing, bootstrapping on the ground.
And we've already seen like seeds of that happening this cycle, but I think it's going
to be much more pronounced in the next cycle.
Yeah.
I mean, earning in crypto, uh, I think is a great way to bring people in.
Uh, I remember like, it's been two years since Bitcoin, uh, was passed as a legal tender in
El Salvador.
And I was on the, on the Twitter spaces when the law was getting passed.
And I learned about this initiative called the, uh, Bitcoin beach initiative and the
way they started like a circular economy in one of the fishing villages, it's called
Alzante, was by paying these youth, um, you know, to do beach cleanups and paying them
in Bitcoin.
So they did like a Bitcoin airdrop because they got like a big donation in Bitcoin.
And the condition of that donor was that you got to keep this money in Bitcoin.
Never, never like get it into the fiat system.
So, so this was one of the ways for incentivizing you to do some work and get away from like
all the gang activity that goes on and do more productive work and get paid in Bitcoin.
And those, those young kids then went and taught their, their parents and their grandparents
how to use the wallet, you know, like the, uh, the wallet that was designed for them.
So it was a very hands-on learning experience.
And I bet Wasabi is going to face the same problem when it comes to onboarding the farmers
and giving and distributing the loot shares, right?
They would need some kind of wallet for that share to go in, right?
Like, uh, they would have to be onboarded to web three.
Uh, so I think this earn strategy is really, really great because once they get into the
system, then they can start participating in it in various ways.
Well, this brings up a, this brings up a really interesting point because we're getting into,
um, kind of like money as a social construct, as well as what, um, what are our mutual obligations?
So for example, we're not, I think the airdropping Bitcoin or even like world coin for like scanning
your eyeballs, where you have this, um, this money that other people gave it value.
And so when I think the, the shift in a community is there's nobody airdropping Bitcoin.
There's nobody airdropping like, uh, a global, like sure.
People like want euros cause that's what the local economy is based in.
Um, but if we say, well, we're going to pay you in a natural capital or, or there's going
to be some kind of mutually agreed upon service or good provided.
I think that's a whole nother, um, like, like, uh, the, the liquidity is in the air.
It just, we need to have that catalyst to make it rain.
And I think this is like where it gets really interesting is that when you give communities,
uh, organizations, the ability to kind of, um, create their own value systems is, is where
the magic happens.
So I think, um, you know, like saying, okay, well, we, we have a, a Bitcoin treasury and
we'll give you this and, but there's stipulations and, and these are rules that we made up top.
And then there's kind of like this power, like dynamic of people with and over those without.
And so how do we create kind of like a more horizontal money system, uh, where it's more,
uh, mutual agreements.
And I think this is where the work that grassroots economics, um, is pioneering with their mutual
credit systems.
And, uh, so I think we're going beyond the 21 million Bitcoin meme, like way, way, way
beyond, um, and I think that we, we have, we have to, uh, if we want to get to where like
we have these both kind of decentralized societies, but it is nested within our, our planetary boundaries.
And I think getting really close to the natural capital and the social capital, um, is, is
really critical.
And there's going to be a lot of experimentation.
I think that's, that's the other thing that I'm looking forward to the next cycle is the
more experimentation we can have amongst different, uh, settings and contexts.
That's what we really need because nobody knows what the real answer is.
Um, and the only way we're going to find out is, is, is by doing it.
And I think Metafest is, is a great, um, like replica of that because we can start to model
a lot of these systems, um, in real time.
So I, we didn't do so much of like the DAO tooling or implementation because there just
wasn't enough time.
It was more of like, okay, who's coming, uh, sponsors, like, uh, accommodations, but it
was all very organic.
So I, I have a feeling that the next iteration, there's going to be a lot of feedback.
Um, there's going to be a lot of, um, like improvements.
And actually while we're having this conversation right now, I didn't know this when I scheduled
this time slot, but Peeth and the Metafest, uh, people are doing like, uh, reflection and
review, um, call right now.
So, which is good because at least now we're doing something like more outward facing to
like a bigger audience.
Um, and they're doing their kind of internal review of how can we make it better for next
time?
And yeah, and I'm, uh, you know, one of the reasons why I really wanted to go to Metafest
just, you know, in addition to meeting cool people that I've been wanting to meet is how
do, how do we create a similar experience, um, here, uh, end of October.
So, but it's, it's a very, like, it's a different, um, it's a different program for Refi Sicilia
where we have, we have a land site.
We have a, we have a network of land sites.
We have, uh, a network of land stewards who we've been engaging and activating over the
past few months.
Um, as we've been doing kind of these smaller event series, as we lead up to the main event
end of October, which coincides with both the olive harvest and the tree planting before
the winter rains, um, with, uh, a national international Refi builder, um, group.
So, uh, Refi Barichara last year was another great experiment.
Um, that was, you know, trying to bring in some of these crypto fundraising tools, get
coin.
We had a Refi spring, uh, grant, um, and, and slowly like, okay, it's just, um, just an introduction.
And that event, we had 60 people.
So it was like kind of, I think probably 80, 20 in terms of 80% visiting and 20% local project
leads.
And I think for Refi Sicilia, it's probably going to be more 60 to 80% local and then 40
to 20% would be, um, visitors.
But we, you know, Refi Sicilia is a spinoff of Refi Italia, which is a spinoff of Refi
spring slash Refi, Refi Taoist, Refi Tao.
And so we've gone, um, and focused more on the cultural context to bring the story to life.
Because if I'm talking to regenerative finance to somebody here, they have no idea what I'm
talking about.
But what's funny is when I say Refi, they are interpreting it in Italian as Refi.
And Marcello knows what I'm talking about.
I bet nobody outside of Refi knows what Refi is.
It's, it's a very, well, but everybody, everybody in, everybody in Sicily, if I say the term
Refi, it means to do over.
It means start over, fresh start.
Like you made a mistake first time.
Don't worry.
Just do it over again.
Which that, that message resonates with people because so much of like the infrastructure
here is broken.
And I'm talking like, you know, physical infrastructure, political infrastructure.
Like it is just, uh, everything has been collapsed for so long that people have no illusions
that the government is going to come in and save them.
Um, and I think that's probably, and also too, that it's, we're, we're an island, uh, we are,
um, have to help each other, our neighbors.
Um, so we do have a sense of camaraderie and, and a sense of identity.
And so these things are kind of like the building blocks for how do we build these autonomous,
decentralized, sovereign organizations.
Um, so when I say Refi, uh, here, it, it's a, it, it has a different story, but we can
also, uh, kind of like embed the regenerative finance meme into that.
So we were having, basically I was talking with the permaculture designer who's been helping
us with some of the workshops.
And, uh, it wasn't until like two months later where the, the regenerative finance thing
clicked for him.
So he's just thinking, oh, we're, you know, we're just doing it over.
We're doing like, cause people think it's, it's for permaculture, which, you know, and
in many ways it is, you know, centropic agroforestry and all of these kinds of ground-based solutions
that we've had for many years.
It's just that to do regeneration, we also need the finance and governance, but we live
in a very degenerative financial and governance legacy system.
So that we've been, we haven't been able to make the progress that we have wanted to make
as a permaculture, global permaculture community.
And this is the battle that I've been, I've been fighting for many years before with the
rainwater startup.
So now we finally have the refi movement.
It's like, okay, great.
We have a lot more tool tools in the toolkit and even more, the biggest asset that we have
is a global community of builders that everybody's working on their little niche project.
But if we zoom out, we can see, ah, there is a holistic ecosystem of plug and play.
Well, I mean, ideally it's plug and play.
I think we need to do a lot more work on the modularity.
So for example, I had a call with Sylvie protocol last week.
They're doing like a reforestation digital layer to help basically do the tracking of the
tree plantings and having like eco credit methodology with kind of like instantaneous
payouts from, from liquidity pools.
So, yeah, I mean, it's very exciting to kind of see what, how much can we do with very little.
And I think bootstrapping without excessive funding, because excessive funding can also
be a problem.
We saw this with, for example, EOS.
EOS was a blockchain from like the 2016, 2017 ICO boom.
They've raised a billion dollars and they, they weren't able to, to produce because I
don't think that was their goal.
It might, maybe, I don't know.
I think there's still some projects building on EOS, but it's just an example of when you
have too much money that, that gets in the way of people focusing on what is the actual
outcome that we want to achieve.
So here we're very much focused on the landscape, the projects that are already existing on the
ground and also helping, empowering other people to do the passion projects that they
want to be doing as well.
So for example, the beach cleanups, uh, the, we, we have a fire watch.
So basically we have kind of like a citizen self-organized group that when the weather conditions
are right for fires, people go out onto kind of the, the, the hotspots and are basically
setting up watch.
So if you see somebody who like throws a cigarette or there's a fire that sparks up that having
those eyes and that, that awareness is actually the best kind of, um, how would I say prevention
for the fires, but that's just a bandaid.
We have to go much deeper in terms of how we reforest, rehydrate our landscape so that
we don't have these kinds of burn situations.
And, but every, every, every region, every bioregion is going to have their own specific,
um, climate challenges, um, this century.
And so as everybody is, uh, creatively responding, we're, we're actually getting a lot of innovation.
And so we almost have to lean into the chaos because the, the innovation isn't going to
come from some, uh, some corporate, uh, whiteboarding session.
And I think that's the big shift.
Um, that's going to be a hard pill to swallow for, for the legacy institutions is that they
can't come in and buy it.
And, uh, I was just, I was very, I was very vocal against the shell funding just because,
uh, I was actually on the bus.
So that's the, that's the funny thing.
I was on the bus, uh, about to arrive in Pula, so excited for MetaFest.
And I see the, the Gitcoin shell announcement and I just, I was so sad.
I was just like, wait, this isn't what I'm working for.
This is not why I'm here.
And of course that sparks a big debate and we can have, you know, the ethical discussions
and, uh, was it worth it?
But that's kind of, that's, that's also the point is that we can have these open discussions,
uh, and at the end of it, we get a lot more clarity.
So if anything, you know, that was a teaching and a learning exercise.
Um, but at the same time, right before MetaFest was kind of when I had my, probably like my
entire career in crypto, which is probably going on eight years now, nine years.
That was probably the lowest I felt in all of that time.
And then going into MetaFest, my spirits were lifted and I was like, uh, how would I say
maybe like re-inspired and re-invigorated and re-energized.
So I think if anything, just MetaFest providing that kind of spiritual regeneration was probably
the, the most impactful beyond any kind of new DAO tooling or, or any new framework.
Um, it was just, um, yeah, getting to spend time with, uh, quality people.
And also too, there's a lot of discussions that we can't have openly online because I
think they're too sensitive.
Um, but because the people going to MetaFest are this kind of like international, um, avant-garde,
uh, reactionary group, we can have like these detailed conversations, um, that, that we can't
have anywhere else.
So I think if anything, MetaFest was just like a safe space to really kind of say, okay,
what are, what, what are we really thinking?
How are we really feeling?
Um, so there, there was, there was meditation, there was, um, different, like kind of
kind of non-technical workshops that were just more for fun, which I really enjoyed.
And yeah, I think overall it was just, uh, kind of like good medicine.
No, this is a great.
And I feel like every place will have their own local solutions because the problems are
so different from one place to another and that you need to come up with your own localized
solutions for that place and then layer it with technology, like not start the technology
first.
Okay.
We have Impacto, uh, PR.
Yeah, go ahead.
You have a question.
Hey, um, it's Sino here.
Um, Antonio, I just have a little question.
You said reactionary group, uh, reactionary in my, um, language means like very right wing
and traditionalist.
Is that what you tried to say?
Because I just got a little confused or I don't know if I heard the word right.
No, I would say, uh, people who are more not aligned with legacy institutions.
Oh, okay.
So the complete opposite.
So you would say alternative people.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Good, good.
Because it's recorded.
It's important.
So, okay.
Yeah, there were no Nazis to my knowledge there.
No, I mean, these are the, these are the survivors.
These are the people who are not, um, how would I say the, these are the, the people who
are trying to design the new systems.
Um, and I, that's another thing that I appreciate about that, uh, community is the radical, like,
uh, uh, the radical, uh, I wouldn't call it politics.
I wouldn't call it, uh, any type of ideology.
I think it's more of just practicality.
Um, so everybody was very practical, but in a radical sense.
Uh, another thing that, uh, was really nice was I got to connect with Roberto from liminal
village and yeah, just seeing like, I think another thing, uh, being, uh, Croatia being
in the, in the Mediterranean, trying to understand more of the commonality, uh, of, of our, of
our ecosystems and to say what brings us together.
So I was definitely like, uh, aware of, of that and, and understanding and noticing like,
okay, well there's, you know, tourism here and there's agriculture here.
And what other things do we share in common, um, that can create these bioregional economies.
And so I think that was also very enlightening for me to just kind of get in, explore some
new space and to see, okay, this is actually very familiar, but also slightly different.
And there's, uh, I guess there's some more conferences coming up in Istanbul and, uh, I,
I unfortunately can't make it to Cosmoverse this year, even though I bought a ticket and
was really excited to go, but I need to stay here cause there's, um, some important work
around some eco credit, um, creation that I'm going to be doing with, uh, seven Sam from
Sunflower, uh, labs.
So I'm, I'm excited for that.
And, and hopefully if I can make it to DevConnect in Istanbul to continue kind of, how do we tie
these, what have been disparate political places into a coherent ecological, uh, relationship.
That's great.
You guys are really lucky to be in Europe.
I would say, because there are just so many events that you can just go to, like even
the one that's happening in Turkey and now there's something happening in Berlin.
Like I feel it's just so much easier for y'all to connect and meet each other in real life
than, well, I think, so I think this is where the spinoff, it gets kind of interesting because
there could very easily be a Caribbean manifest as well.
Um, and how to kind of synergize, uh, to go where the people are, because I think the Caribbean
and the Mediterranean are actually like really interesting because they've been like colonized
and cut up where you have, you have a coherent, uh, biological region, um, but a totally messed
up political fracturing and which is, you know, the source of a lot of the problems.
And so until we redraw that map and it doesn't have to be from any above authority or government,
it is more of just the people's awareness growing to say, where are my relationships?
Where, where, where am I creating, uh, my, my trade networks, my, uh, my, my friend network.
And so I, I think it would be cool to have, uh, an event in the Caribbean, like, uh, of course
it would take some work, but I think if people are motivated enough, it could be done.
And also too, I think just getting beyond, uh, any one specific protocol.
So for example, like there's a lot of Ethereum events, but that's like not the whole ecosystem.
So how to broaden and also, well, also broadening the, the umbrella, but also kind of dialing
in more about what it is that we want to accomplish.
So I think it's cool that we can agree on values and we can agree on direction, but we
can have, um, different technical solution integration.
So let's say I don't want to have, uh, a Moloch DAO or I, I, I, I don't, I want to do
something else like that's, that's okay because it's an opt-in situation.
Um, yeah.
No, this is great.
Thanks, uh, Anthony for, um, sharing the vibe and what you learned and how you plan to implement
that in your bio region.
Anybody else has any questions?
Sino, Wasabi, Marcelo, uh, just request, and I'll make you the speaker, civil monkey, anybody
else?
Um, hey, yeah, um, going back to the, um, to the part where we, how we approach, uh, community
communities and, and, and close the gap between, uh, Web3 and, and Normies, let's say, um, I
believe that the key is that we, um, we need to, um, step up and try to create change in, in
different industries, um, for example, like, uh, the, the easier way to bring people and for
people to understand the value of what we're doing is if we have a proof of concept, like,
okay, this is, there is this X problem and this is how we solve it.
Uh, just by using, uh, blockchain technology, like, uh, public ledgers, uh, the stuff that
brings transparency, no, it's not even about, uh, creating a new token or using a, uh, a new
currency is more like, okay, this is a, uh, there is a problem like, uh, uh, uh, uh, with
the source of truth, uh, uh, the late, the leaks to X problem.
This is how we solve it using, um, blockchain, or this is how we coordinate using blockchain.
And we solve this problem with, uh, uh, a little less, uh, resources than the traditional
way.
Um, I believe that this kind of use cases is how we, uh, we, we explain to, to communities
like, uh, the value that, that, that we can create and the change that we can do with,
with blockchain.
Yeah, this was, uh, this was a common topic, uh, that we discussed was like, okay, we come
in to a community and we say, Hey, we have this magic internet bean money, like, it's
totally preposterous.
Like what value are we bringing?
Um, and I think that was just something that like, you know, even I reflect on is when we,
you know, going back to the whole crypto nomad thing, what are we actually bringing to these
communities?
And, and of course you don't have to necessarily be a nomad to, to be a, you know, a builder
in a, in a, in a community of normies.
So what are tangible, tangible value that we can be creating?
And so that was just like something that, you know, we were kind of openly discussing,
um, about like, what, what are, what are some things, tangible value that we can bring
to the quote unquote normies.
And I think that's, that's a different question than what we have been asking about, oh yeah,
just dump all of your retirement savings with us.
Don't worry, it's safe.
Um, and which has kind of been the onboarding conversation.
Oh yeah.
Bye now.
Sell later.
Um, so I think, you know, that conversation is shifting, uh, to more value creation, which
I think is, is, is great.
And yeah, I think that's where, where it's also more fun.
Yeah.
Cause, uh, like, uh, for example, uh, we, we wake up in the morning and we say GM on Twitter,
and then we ask the system for a change.
But what if we create a change from scratch?
Cause we already have the tools.
We already have all of these frameworks, um, tech fancy tech that we can create, uh, internet
currencies.
We can create like, uh, uh, a system of truth, um, is easily verified by people.
But what is the real change that we're doing?
Like, uh, we need to start thinking about, uh, uh, changing industries.
For example, what we're doing, if we are, uh, if we success at this and the proof of concept
is, uh, uh, like, uh, we, we get to the point where the proof of concept is, is up and running
and we're getting the data, we creating that, uh, supply chain of value.
Like we can extrapolate that to, to a whole new level.
Um, people can be like, okay, they create a framework.
That, uh, provide funding for this kind of project.
So you already know that that kind of projects won't have the same problem to see if they
adopt the framework that the community already know that, that is up and running and working.
And this is, I believe this is how you create change because now you have a community of
farmers that are not facing at least the funding problems, but they may face other problems.
But when it comes to funding coordination or like how to verify the work being done, being
done, being done in the ground, like you have a framework in place that you can create, take
that value from, um, and, and, and have a fund, a foundation that you can dump money on this
foundation and create change.
And this is how you have, you create a, like a snowball of value and people because you, you
can say, Hey, we don't lack of funding to plant, uh, coconuts or we don't lack of funding to
plant, uh, whatever, like whatever we need to plant in, in that specific area.
We don't, we don't lack of funding because we have a framework that brings clarity to that.
And, and this is how you change an industry from scratch.
It's not like a quick cash grab or a weekend project.
It's like we creating something to, to have that change emerge from that.
And in my opinion, I believe that that's, that that's the kind of work that we need to be doing
because if you change a whole industry, all of the value that comes after it is going to be
passing through the bridge that you just built, you know?
So that's really, that's really interesting. Cause I'm curious to know, uh, for the DR and,
and this could be for many other regions too, because I'm sure there's already people who are
already growing coconuts. Um, and so there's already, um, a little bit of liquidity, a little
bit of supply. And I'm, I'm having to deal with this situation here where it's like, okay,
we have a lot of olive producers. Uh, there's a lot of olive oil here. Um, but farmers are not
marketers. Um, so how do we kind of take what's already being grown, use some of that, uh, supply
to then reinvest in the transition for the regenerative agriculture and these, uh, holistic
regenerative economies, which, which is a big social shift. It's not just any kind of, uh, top,
top layer. So that's just one, uh, one Avenue. And I just want to, um, end, end with this,
just kind of the final reflection from MetaFest, which was talking to a lot of people who are
younger, um, who are looking for like, uh, I'll just give an example of a Venezuelan friend who
is, has been living in Barcelona and wants to move to Southern Spain and find like her community in
her village. And there's countless people like that who actually want to find pathways back into nature,
into regeneration, um, who do have like these desk jobs or whatever, email jobs. Um, and then
MetaFest as that pop-up container to say, Hey, here's a sandbox. Here's a safe place to play with
these ideas. And so even if there is a way to kind of recreate that feeling and, and kind of, you know,
the, uh, how would I say, uh, the, the burning man moment of just like, that's not, that's not the
cultural zeitgeist. What is, what is that container? What is that self-expression container that we can
create? So I think MetaFest was a nice, um, like example of that where you can bring people together
and we can kind of role-play, um, some of these ideas in person. And I think maybe that's what we
need more of are these liminal spaces where people can step into different roles and outside of, um,
kind of what they thought was possible previously. And that's another thing that I'm hoping for
Refice to Chile is just, if anything can happen, it's just a shift in how people are perceiving the
problem. And if, if that can happen and the local people can actually realize that, wow, we have
all the resources we need available, what we're lacking is just the belief that we can do it.
And I think that's kind of the funniest mindfuck of this whole thing is like, there's nobody stopping
us. Um, and it just requires a little bit of faith to, to, to move that first step forward.
That's right. Uh, civil monk, do you have anything to say?
Hi, thanks for the space. Um, always, always a good space. Um, I wanted to ask what were the,
the talks, um, that you heard at MetaFest that, that you resonated with the most of that,
like stuck in your head. And I don't, I don't know, maybe there are even, um, like talks or recordings
available for people to go to, like what, what would be some of the, the talks that, that stuck into
your head and maybe they are still available for people to, to go to?
Yeah. MetaFest, uh, they did a live stream. So I think everything, all the talks should be on,
um, should be online. So there's two days of talks and then there was a third kind of like
unconference day. Uh, but one of the talks that I really did like was Sam from the traditional
dream factory. Uh, he launched their, uh, they, they basically announced the launch of their token
for TDF. Um, so I thought it's just like, okay, great. Like we're starting to, we're, we're shipping,
we're shipping. Um, and so it's kind of like one of these things where it goes from, uh, like idea
to manifestation very quickly. And so just seeing how quickly things are materializing was very
inspiring. And I have a feeling like over the next year, we're just going to see more and more
of these projects launching, um, and taking matters into their own hands. But at the same time, like
we're all connected. So that helps give me, uh, momentum to like continue to innovate on our, you
know, local currency slash like, uh, alternative, uh, economy here. And unfortunately I wasn't able to
see all the talks. There was just so much going on. Um, also enjoyed, uh, yeah, the, there was, uh,
the first day of talks, there was, um, Roberto from liminal village. That was a really nice one.
So they're actually using like chat tools for like their village. They're, they're kind of like
many eco village operations and just seeing like different experiments that our people are,
are running. Um, there was a lot of like, you know, not too much since making diagrams. There's
like more real world application stuff, which I appreciated. Uh, but yeah, all the, all the talks
were recorded. And then there's just a lot of, a lot of recording equipment there. There was like
360 cams, like people just like, we're like, I don't know, recording live streaming. I don't know
what, but I hope that like a lot of this, um, content kind of comes to the surface, which I'm sure it
will over the next couple of weeks and months. And yeah, I just, I, you know, I want to just say
like, uh, Pete and everybody did a really great job. Uh, it was, yeah, I mean, it exceeded expectations
and just pulling off an event like that. And this, and this like market was, uh, you know, just,
just really good, uh, really good vibes all around. So I, I'm looking forward to the next one. I,
I'm sure there will be another one and how the space evolved. So it's kind of like,
I feel like DevCon is already, already over as like kind of a cool, cool space. It's gotten too
big. And so now we're kind of having to recreate these smaller events. Um, and then there was a
article that came out recently called, I think digital villages and, uh, like return to the digital
village and leaving the algorithmic scene by Simon. I always get his last name mixed up, but
I think that kind of captures a little bit of the zeitgeist because the places that we were
gathering, like Facebook, uh, Instagram, like these digital spaces, even, even Twitter, whatever
are becoming, um, so dysfunctional that we're having to go into smaller spaces to realign and
connect. So I think that, uh, that's it. That's an interesting, interesting trend. And I think
we're going to kind of see more pop-up like in-person villages. So, you know, Deepa, you mentioned
the Bitcoin beach, there was Zuzulu, there's traditional dream factory. I think we're kind
of entering into this, like disintegration and reintegration phase. Uh, that's, that's going
to be really, really, really broad and deep in the, in the, in the next few years. So
it's going to be interesting.
Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much, Antonio. I know you've been talking for almost one hour,
20 minutes. Uh, but if anyone else has any questions for Antonio, please shoot now or we'll
end the spaces, uh, soon. Well, actually I'm kind of curious what's been new with you. You've,
you've been, uh, I feel like you've been kind of, uh, you took like a rest. I, yeah, you know,
last year was so intense. Like you have no idea, like how many, I must've had at least 50
DAO conversations with different across 12 organizations, like 12, uh, DAOs. And what I'm
seeing is that not much has changed since then. Like the DAO scene has been stagnant, like nothing
new is happening. No new use cases that are coming up. And so I'm wondering what is it that
I should study next because I've like totally studied everything that the space has to provide
about DAOs. And I'm also seeing like, you know, for newcomers, like how did they enter the space?
And I've been having a lot of conversations. I've been, I've been getting invited to a lot of talks
to come and, you know, talk to people who are not from the space about, about DAOs and what's
Web3 all about. And I, I feel like, um, you know, what's, what's really next for the DAO space.
That's what I've been thinking. Like it's most, what I've come to realize is that a lot of them
are focused around grant making. Like if you look at any DAO, like even a protocol DAO or a,
or a DeFi DAO, it's mostly like, let's fund the builders of our ecosystem. And so they give their
community. Um, so there's a core team that's building the core, uh, product. And then there
is this community, which is the DAO, you know, like DAO is like a sidecar. And so you, now you
have these funds and you figure out how you want to spend these funds for different projects. So
it's mostly like fund allocation stuff that happens in DAOs. That's what I've realized under
the hood, like no matter what they say, it's mostly fund allocation. And so I'm thinking like,
what is the next evolution here for DAOs? Like, will people come together on the internet
to create new projects? Like, and what a DAO in that configuration would look like? Because
they might not start with a multi-sig at all, right? You don't need funds initially. Maybe
they won't even fundraise. Like right now people launch a token and that's how they fundraise
and they cede their treasury. And then, uh, the token holders become the community. Uh, but, uh,
sometimes, you know, in large protocol or DeFi does, those token holders are not the real community,
but you mistake them to be a community and then you invite them for voting. And many a times they're
not interested in voting. They're not interested in governance. So at the end of the day, there are
only five or six people voting. And, uh, so it's pretty centralized. Uh, so I'm just, I've been
thinking a lot and I'm going to be writing, uh, publishing something next week about the next
evolution of DAOs or what, what is the future of DAOs. And I think it's going to be around
just kids coming together on the internet to build stuff. Right. And when you're building,
like just like any other startup, you will bootstrap, right? You might not do a token launch,
uh, like, uh, token launches are like right now, just the legal part of it is so scary, right? Like
in the U S you can't launch any token in Canada or you, I mean, just overcoming those legal hurdles
are so big that they might not want to get into those complexities. They might just want to go
mission first and build things. And so soul bond tokens is, I feel, uh, is a way for acknowledging
people who are contributing to that mission for which they come together and building on-chain
reputation and, uh, just token gating access to whatever work they're doing through soul bond
tokens, not through financial tokens, you know? So I feel that's the next thing, but right now we're
still very stuck in the old framework of dying. And I'm sure that aspect will continue to live,
but there will be new forms of DAOs that will come, which will be purely builder DAOs, you know,
let's build things. So that's the next wave I'm waiting to study actually.
From impact to intact.
Well, so after the, after the MetaFest, uh, main event, there was a bus trip and that was kind of
like, uh, I think more the spontaneous DAO, uh, uh, emergence where I was, I, I unfortunately
couldn't go because the, the connections, um, from Dubrovnik just didn't work. Uh, but from what I
heard, it was very much organic and people stepping in, um, to just make the trip, uh, work. So there's,
I don't know, 20 people, two buses, uh, six days traveling the coast of, of Southern Croatia.
And I think like that is a great like metaphor for a DAO. It's like, can you keep, can you keep
the wheels on the bus and, um, and get to the destination with nobody dying?
I know just keeping people together, right? Like, uh, and if you look at it, like if the,
the next generation of organizations would be on the internet, then, um, the current model is fine.
And I'm sure it all comes with pooling resources. Like right now, the whole thing is about pooling
money because it's all started with the multisig. Multisig facilitated that, right? Like now strangers
can pool money. And then we had these ICOs and financial tokens can help generate funds for the
treasury. And so the whole DAO begins from that angle. Okay. Now we have a treasury and we need to
govern the treasury. And so all the token holders are entitled to this governance, right? Because token
also serves as a, you know, for, as a utility, right? It's governance as utility, but, and which
serves great purpose, like for Wasabi, like he needs to unlock the global finance for local agriculture,
which is great, right? Like you need a way to do that. But then I'm just thinking of the, the next,
you know, the, the new kinds of like DAO, like kids are so comfortable working online, like with,
and collaborating online. So I feel like they would, it would be very natural for,
for these young people to just collaborate online to start new companies or, or just not even
companies. They don't have to resemble, like you don't have to continue to exist as a DAO. You could
just come up for a, for small specific projects and then, and then just close the DAO when the work
gets done. So yeah, I'm looking at a lot of like, what is the future of DAOs? Where will AI play a
role? Because there's so many repetitive tasks that DAO people have to do. Like every time there's a
new member, you need to onboard, you need to like show them the things you need to show where the
documentation is. Like there's so much of boring things that human beings have to do in DAOs right
now that can all be automated through AI. So yeah, I've been, I've been doing a lot of deep thinking
around the future because I feel like the current stage is fine, but there is no new stuff happening.
It's, it's all the old stuff. And people have started looking at DAOs as a way of like, you know,
building a community. Like, so a lot of product companies, it's like, let's have a DAO, you know,
let's have a marketing DAO, let's have this DAO, like, which is basically let's engage community,
give them some money and let them create stuff, you know? So it's more around just fund management
right now. Well, I was a DAOist before I was into DAOs. So I feel like the DAO should arise when
the need arises and then the DAO can, can disintegrate when, when, when the problem has
been dissolved. And I think having more fluidity and, and helping people to sense, make and navigate
turbulence, I think is going to be a really big value offering. So if anything, it's just stability
in uncertain times, which is kind of like, you would think a DAO is like, we have a perception
of DAOs being very unstable because it's just like, it seems like chaos from the outside and it's such,
such new tooling, but it would be ironic if DAOs actually become the stabilizer.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Like if you look at impact, though, uh, media, like we came around
like for six, seven months to write a book, right? Like it was a very project specific. So you don't,
yeah, you could totally disintegrate after the work is done. Like you don't have to continue to, uh,
replicate being or imitate to be a corporation on the internet. You know, you could be very task
specific, like let's do a beach cleanup. Let's just get, you know, people together. That's just a
very micro activity based DAO, right? And once it's done, it's done. So there are, there'll be
different use cases. There'll be so many different use cases, but right now I feel like almost all
the use cases that are there are just, uh, one kind of use cases. If you look across any, any, uh,
category, be it NFTs, like, you know, you basically, what, what do you do with NFT DAOs? You just launch an
NFT and then you form a community around it. And then the community decides like nouns or whatever,
like how, what projects we should fund. Right. And so your whole focus is around, uh, voting to fund
projects. So, yeah, I'm just trying to flip it and say, uh, what is the next thing, you know,
coming together to create things, uh, just as a team of maybe five or six, you don't even have to be
thousands and a hundred thousands. You can be just a small team and that's, that's, uh, operating online
using soul bond tokens. And at some point when they have funds, they can use multi-sec to put
their money in. Well, if I could just add on that, because I feel like the micro DAO, um,
aggregates into a synergistic macro DAO. And I think that we're, we're, we're looking at a super
organism here, uh, which we, you know, we kind of get lost in the little details, but, um, it is
growing bigger than what we can kind of individually comprehend in terms of the organic
emergence of, of what we could consider some type of planetary consciousness, uh, even though it is,
you know, interpreted through individuals in these small groups. Um, and also too, just from, um,
I think from last cycle, so much of it was focused on Ethereum and the merge. And it's like, well,
we got here now what? So it's kind of like, it's funny. So, okay, well you've achieved,
you know, the, the goal and everybody's kind of looking around to say, what do we do now?
Meanwhile, uh, we have these massive, you know, coordination problems. Um, and going back to my
earlier point about dissolving DAOs, because in fact, we have to dissolve and compost a lot of
legacy culture and systems. And so how do we, for example, um, bring back, uh, ecosystems,
large scale ecosystems into some type of cohesion because everything's been cut up and split up,
uh, privatized, uh, speculated on. And so we have these like really big, uh, fundamental fabric
problems that we could say, okay, these are very large problems. How do we kind of cut it up
or at least approach it into kind of like micro scale for macro objectives? So I think that the,
the Cosmo local, um, aspect to this, I think is really, really critical. And, uh, I'll just,
I'll, I'll do a shout out to my buddy, uh, Alex Korn from, uh, ReCommons land. He just put out a
really nice article on, uh, nested bioregional commons. And, uh, I think grounding a lot of the
DAO work, like as much as we are kind of like digital native, we're also like citizens of
planet earth and helping to redraw that map is going to give a lot more stability and a lot more
power, um, to our digital organization. So I think that's another kind of like counterintuitive
thing is the more grounded we get, the stronger our digital communities will be.
And I think MetaFest was a great grounding opportunity. Like everybody there just felt
like really whole in their body, like just very much, um, very much, uh, fulfilling experience
just from a human level. And I think, uh, like that's what everybody's really craving. Um, as people
kind of, uh, yeah, just get lost in, uh, in the sauce. I think there's the one guy,
yeah, I think we're at the point of the cycle where people, people start losing their minds,
um, which is really, really fascinating to see these like massive, like, uh, burnouts. And,
um, which I mean, is also like kind of sad or predictable or whatever. It's just reiterating
that we are humans and that we like, we need to take care of ourselves.
A hundred percent. Yeah, no, I've been looking at what's next and I'm also, uh, on the side
doing a personal, like a learning project using LLMs to fine tune, um, uh, and an LLM on DAO
knowledge. So people can just chat with it because right now, like I, I, I get called upon by so many
people. Like I recently spoke to a PWC consultant from Turkey. She wanted to know about DAOs and like
the kind of basic questions she asked me. I was like, what if she could just chat to
an LLM and get all the questions answered about DAOs and stuff like that, like different use cases.
So, uh, yeah, I'm, uh, doing that as well on the side, but, uh, this space is not going anywhere.
It's just going to evolve and get better. Uh, and coordination will not be, I feel like small,
uh, small scale coordination is better than a large scale coordination because you dilute a lot of things
when you become too big beyond a certain number. Like, uh, there's one DAO that I came across,
which is super interesting. It's, uh, called super team DAO. They're like really, really, I mean,
I feel like that's the future of DAOs. If you look at it, they have no treasury, no token,
they're gated through proof of work. So they have a discord, uh, they started in India, uh, and
everybody's invited to just come and join the discord. Like they encourage lurkers as they say it,
like you can just be on the sidelines, see what's happening. And they put out like, uh, so it's
around the Solana ecosystem. So they put out like grants and, uh, you know, like if there is any
thing to be done, like there are grant announcements or bounties or whatever. And once you finish the
task and if it's done well, then you get something called experience points, which they build their own
soul bond tokens, like back, uh, in 2021 when they started. Soul bond tokens are very new in the
Ethereum ecosystem, but they built their own experience. They call it the experience points
on the Solana chain. And so you get this, uh, once you do a great job of something, like, uh, you get
this experience point and through that experience points, like once you earn a certain level,
you get membership to the DAO, which you get like a generative, uh, dynamic NFT. And then you are part
of the DAO and the DAO is restricted to 150 members because they've realized that beyond 150, it's very
difficult to know the names and know people personally. It's the Dunbar number. So they're
restricted. Dunbar is DAO. Yeah. And so every now and then they have something called a purge party where
they will call in all the 150 members and see which ones is not participating actively or has dropped their
experience points. They haven't contributed to the DAO in any great way. And so it's just to purge them
and make room for the new ones. So they always like, uh, do this. And, uh, and it's really
fascinating. I'm going to write an article on them. I had invited them on my tour spaces and now they
started in India, but now they're everywhere. They're in Dubai, they're in Berlin, they're like
expanding big time. And they're this, they have no treasury that that's it. It's like purely
based on, you know, you get invited to be a part of the social club or this club, because once you are
part of that club, those members open doors for you, you know, somebody is working in a certain
startup or somebody is working in a certain company, or you get access to more grants and
more bounties and stuff like that. Like you, you can, and it's popular with kids. Uh, they were
saying they're the average age of their community members is 15 to 16 year olds, you know? So they're
really popular with, you know, kids who want to really grow their, uh, you know, grow in their
career or a very, you know, the, the builder mindset people, you know, like they want to really
grow in their space. So it's an amazing model. And I feel like that's going to be the model for a lot
of those in the future, you know, starting with no treasury at all. Well, it also seems like the,
the disruptor for LinkedIn and how do we, how do we since make the social graph, which I think is
probably our biggest, our biggest challenge is who do we, who can we trust? And, uh, that was,
you know, a common topic. Who do we trust? Exactly. And right now, like, uh, the reason we can't trust
anybody is the reason why we have this trust. We say like, uh, DeFi does work in a trustless manner,
right? Because, uh, all you got to do is like, you have those wallets, um, and addresses and you
vote with that. But what if you establish trust through a different way, through, through maybe
proof of work or whatever, and then you have these experience points or soul bond tokens that forms
the level of trust, you know, that you're looking for. Very permissionless, right? Like then you can,
uh, you, you know, the same logic applies. You can take these experience points and you can go
somewhere else and say, I have this from here and that unlocks opportunity somewhere else. So I just
recently like tweeted, I was saying, soul bond tokens are the new on-chain resume. So, because it
will at some point take over LinkedIn, you know, like with, with the younger generation, like they
would just participate in different communities and on these, these tokens that reflects the skills
and their contributions and their education, whatever it is that lives with them.
Well, that's extremely exciting to see the kind of the newness coming out of the, the youth and
kind of these marginalized places. Cause I feel like everything that the U S or is doing to kind of
hinder progress will come back. And that energy is coming back. Like it'll be a wave that, uh, of
irrelevance. And so I think even though now times are kind of looking grim from a U S regulatory
perspective, these, uh, these reactions and, uh, are, are really like where, where the, where the future
is. So I appreciate that insight. And I feel like we need to hear more of those, hear more of those
stories. So I'm looking forward to your next, to your next book article. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right.
Sure. Yeah. I also starts as an article and then it's an anthology, but I am also writing a really
mini book on how to thou. And it's mostly for the normies, like who are not from web three about like
not scaring them. There is no crypto involved in it. Uh, it's all about just getting started,
building in public, just starting a discord to begin with. And, um, and then slowly applying the
doubt, not the doubt rules, but web three tools for transparency and, and things like SBTs and stuff
like that. So, I mean, a lot of people are scared of crypto because for what, you know, for,
so I don't want to scare them by talking about tokens and they don't want to get involved.
Like it's complicated, right? Like all this financial tokens is complicated. You, uh, so just
keep the financial stuff out of it and just purely talk about building, coming together and, uh, and
just building in public. And that's the way to downing. Actually, that's what I tell people
whenever they ask me. Just inviting all your stakeholders in one place on the internet and just start
communicating with each other. So we, uh, we had a successful Gitcoin grant round for ReFi
Sicilia. We were able to get a few donations and, and some, some new people onboarded. So now we are
kind of in that, uh, process of, of dollification for our community, which, you know, might just start
as a multi-sig. Um, but also talking with Umberto from, uh, from, uh, uh, Holistica. Is that the name
of the, of the organization? Anyways, um, Charmverse and some of these other kind of like, uh, web three
social management tools. I think we're going to see a lot more of that, uh, come out to make it a lot
easier for people to kind of get off the web to, uh, communication channels and, and into something
a little bit more structured and, and, uh, and functional. So I'm, I'm looking forward to that.
I had, I've, I've had my share of Dow experiences and trying to learn from those, uh, so that it's not
just one person masquerading as a Dow. I think that's the, that's the, the, the key point.
Yeah. That's right. And Wasabi is a power user of Charmverse. I'm sure he can, uh, tell you more
about it. Um, yeah, like web three tooling is great. That's what I recommend to a lot of people. Uh,
simple things like Wanderverse for task management, uh, they have inbuilt NFTs, like every time you come
to the task, you get an NFT. So there are these integrations that makes it easy for people who are
not even in web three, but you know, they automatically gets these NFTs that says that
they've contributed or they've completed a task. So, which is.
Yeah, we're at the, we're at the point now where, uh, we've done a few of these, uh, kind of like
impact events slash education events, and now, uh, using the NFT ticketing platform called Mego.
And we got really lucky that, uh, there's a web three developer here on the Island who just so
happened to be building an NFT ticketing platform and basically said, Hey, we want to support you in
any way we can. So we got this technical, um, technical partner. And so now we've been doing,
uh, these events and now more and more people are coming to us saying, Hey, how can I get an event
on your platform? So I think this is like listening to the community and having the community to drive
the development as opposed to the other way around, which I think is what it has traditionally been.
That's great. Anybody has any other updates to share? This was really nice. I truly enjoyed it. Oh,
wow. We've been here for one and a half hours, but, uh, wasabi's got something to say. Okay,
great. Go ahead. Um, yeah, I just dropped in the chat, uh, a multi-seat that I'm, I'm, I'm playing with it.
It's a, it's a multi-chain multi-seat. So, uh, check it out because, uh, basically you use USDC to pay gas
across, uh, 11 chains that they support. So you don't need to, to have, uh, uh, tokens to pay gas at, at every
chain and you have, uh, a multi-seat, uh, you have the same address at the, uh, at 11 chains. I dropped
it in the chat. It's called, uh, avocado, avocado wallet. Um, it's, it's really cool. Like I'm, I'm,
I'm playing with it. I, I top up some gas and basically you can pay, uh, with the same gas tank
across every EVM blockchain out there. Like no matter what it is, uh, you can, you can pay with
the same gas. Um, yeah, I, I, I believe that since you are about to use a multi-seat, uh, this is a
great option because you don't need to worry about deploying a new save with a new address at every
chain. You can basically create this, this wallet, um, use Optimix or use Polygon or use whatever you
want to use for whatever use case you have. Um, you have everything in one place. So yeah, check it out.
That's great. Thank you. Just share the link of that wallet, Wasabi, because I think it'll be
important. Uh, and I'll put it, uh, I'll put it in the telegram chat too, because I think it's, uh,
important that your multi-sig is able to accept from different places, like, uh, from different
chains. And if one is already set up for that, that'll be awesome. It's, it's paying in the, in the,
in the Jumper Tron. I just penned it too. Is there the link? Great. So yeah, let's end the spaces. Uh,
I bet, uh, it's, uh, what time is it for you, Antonio? Uh, it's definitely, uh, getting close to
at Peritivo time. Um, but yeah, thank you Deepa so much for inviting me on and, uh,
asking me to share my experience. Um, cause I, as much as I talk on Twitter, uh, it's just the tip
of the iceberg. Uh, but yeah, no, it is very exciting. Uh, you know, it's, it's kind of one
of these things where the, there's as much as we want to give up, we can't cause there's nowhere else
to go. So we just keep on pushing forward and, uh, yeah, it's have as much fun as we can.
And yeah, just appreciate everybody's, uh, input and positivity and also the refi Sicili events
coming up in the end of October. So if anybody wants to check that out, even supporting us from
afar, we're going to be doing some olive oil NFTs, um, as a fundraising mechanism and yeah,
just, it's going to be exciting for the people here to see the potential for transforming our,
our, our local rural economy into regenerative, regenerative economy. So I'm looking forward to
just being another use case and sharing some more success stories. Yeah, no, that's great.
Thank you. I wonder if we get the olive oil NFT, would you be able to send the olive oil?
Uh, we're working on the sailboat, uh, to ship it overseas. Uh, right now it's easy to just ship
it in the EU, but I did, uh, I did ship like 50 liters to my family in the U S. So it's just,
it's just a matter of paying the shipping costs or, uh, working on some kind of digital perks.
So if it's a, even if it's just a virtual tour of the farm, uh, or if it's like a recipe collection
or eventually when people can come visit in person and yeah, I think there's a lot of,
a lot of potential and everybody has to eat three times a day, sometimes four.
Um, so yeah. And I think also too, just going back to the big picture, because we have, we have this, um,
this pathway, uh, that is a long-term multi-generational, um, pilgrimage.
And I think if we can zoom out, that'll help give us a lot more resilience as we, as we do the day to day
operations. Yeah, no, that's great. And there's so much potential with where you are, like just
doing cooking classes and doing NFTs for that too. Like, uh, that'd be amazing. That's, that's one
idea I gave you last year, but, um, yeah, I'd love to be part of that. If you have any, you know,
any of those NFTs to get exposed. Yeah. I'm working on the cookbook.
Okay. Cookbook. Okay. But it's a, it's a collection. It's a collection of, uh, of romantic, uh, recipes.
That's great. Okay. So thank you everyone for listening. I'm so, um, it was really nice. Like,
I don't, I don't even know where the hour and a half passed, but thank you so much for being with
us from the start. Uh, it was amazing. Antonio Wasabi, Marcelo, and all the people that joined us
here. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of the day, uh, and see you back on spaces.
Bye-bye. Thank you Deepa. Have a great day. Thank you for having us.
Ciao, ciao. Bye, ciao.
