Hey guys, I don't know what happened there. There are some serious technical problems with my phone. So I need you a co-host, Michael.
if my connection drops or something goes aware awry and i apologize everybody uh... for any interruptions yet no worries
I'm back on to. I will caution you that even if you assign a co-host if the space is being hosted from your account and you close the app or switch accounts on the main Twitter app, it will end the space. Regardless.
So just be careful. Yeah. I have my backup over here too, just in case.
Yeah, I guess we'll just do a quick reshare real quick just to kind of let them know I don't know if I got censored but One thing that I've been meaning to experiment with is like starting the the space on Twitter
on desktop and then like inviting people from there, but I don't think you really can do that. I mean, like that's a more stable thing where it's like you're much less likely to get logged out on desktop and then you just don't speak from there and kind of just host everybody else. That's what I'm doing right now with.
Yeah, you can't do it. Well, you can maybe do some sort of like Twitter Android bridge, I guess, but yeah, it's weird. Gotcha. Yeah, I'll send you the link for blue stacks.
That's what I'm using right now. Alright, cool. Hey, what's up guys? It's a bike off. I'm assuming Justin is running there. Yeah, let me
get a lesson back on and uh... what kind of going to get started again all did you get run well i don't have a single thirteen minutes a little bit yep we got a lot of uh... yeah i hate that
Yeah, we were kind of like just going through the definition of privacy and then the space shrugged a little bit, but we found out the issue. So we'll get a kickstart it again.
Basically, I just want to go over the issues of privacy. Today we have our special guest, Tor, there from Secret Foundation, which is helping kind of like
and power a lot of people that are, if you guys have a note about secret network or secret foundation yet, please make sure that you're going and check it out. And then also we're going to be talking about basically the definitions of privacy, what's happening to the infringement of privacy as well, how users can protect themselves and also
talk about a lot of different issues that are happening around that as well. Like people are not asking for the rights to to privacy, people are not understanding that they can opt out or kind of like be able to control their privacy and then find a way to do it on the blockchain as well through Secret Network.
What he said. So yeah, if you guys could do me a favor, we got ruged on the last one. If you guys can go ahead and click on the bottom bottom right, there's a little chat icon. Just go ahead and share it, like it and retweet it.
it just so that we can have more people come in. This space is going to be recorded, so in case if anyone's going to be missing it, we'll be reposting it as well so that everyone can kind of have this information. Once again, we want it to be where everyone
Everyone is able to have information for free. So we'll most likely be placing it on all of our social media, keeping it on forever. We'll download the recording. And at any time, if people want to kind of come back to this talk and hear more about it, they can.
Where were we? We were going over the definition of privacy, just kind of like the ability or individual to, you know, seclude information about themselves from anyone or even from governments, corporations, individuals, and that
a lot of countries actually have privacy laws and also like some of the constitutions of some of the some of the countries also have privacy enabled and enabledment in them as well. Yeah, no, I mean everybody in the world already cares about privacy. They just might not put it in those terms is kind of how we describe it like
It's insane that just the term privacy has gotten a weird reputation when so many of the principles of privacy are things that we defend on a daily basis, just the right to tell people things about ourselves or not. The real world, let's go back before a time before
the internet in that world, everything was private by default. We just assumed people weren't going to find stuff out about us unless they put in a lot of effort to surveil us or like come steal into our homes or something like that, which was mostly illegal. Or we just assumed that people
We'd have to ask us, we'd have to consent to share some information about ourselves. And that assumption just kind of got blown up with the way that the internet was architected. And now, with the way that Web 3 is architected, it's possibly going to be even worse. Yet, somehow when we talk about this concept of privacy and privacy is dead and so on, it's like, well,
we had it for centuries and now just assuming that we're not going to have it in the future and that somehow society is going to be not only like, you know, some people are like, oh, it'll be better like the whole yolo nothing would be happy thing. But just the idea that it could even be sustainable without privacy is to
me that's fundamentally not possible. You cannot have a sustainable society if there cannot be some kind of expectation of individual privacy or individual consent. At that point you just have universal totalitarianism and it's a very scary and dangerous outcome. So if you don't
think you care about privacy or you don't think you have an expectation of privacy, you know, we just have to get people to think differently about that. Imagine the amount of propaganda that had to emerge from the past to this point for us to somehow believe that and maybe partly to blame is social media, which I think has been likely the worst actors
on privacy and yet somehow we get all our news from there. And then we end up wondering it's like, oh man, privacy is, uh, it must be bad. Everybody on Facebook says it's bad. So yeah, I think we understand kind of how we got here, but we want more people to understand the importance of why we don't stay here.
Yeah, because like, oh yeah, I remember where I was. I was bringing up the Cambridge Analytica hack and kind of like how that all that data was kind of like placed around. So for example, like anyone that was on Facebook or anyone that was on the social platforms would have their information that's, you know, taken from them. Like a lot of this personal data that we kind of hand
out not knowing that there's value to it, right? The value of it is basically going to be whether it's your phone number, whether it's your name, whether it's even the things and characteristics that you like. Whenever you're kind of like having this data placed out there, it can be used in the wrong hands, it can be used for marketing, which might not be, it might be solicitation, but it can also be used
use for other things like inferior acts like you know identity theft or even finding you know I don't want to go deeper but you know what I mean right it can be used by bad actors within this space if they if they don't have proper intent for it so we want to make sure that we're more secure of our data because you know we don't want it to be where it's everyone can see
see my data, because then it's not truly private. Once they're able to map it out, especially even on public waterfall blockchains, if they're able to map it out, you're already now. All the information is now there for them to find out and figure out about you.
Yeah, it's not okay to have everything public by default. It's not just about it being done available for bad actors. There's this weird assumption that if you make everything public by default, it's some kind of security solution in itself where it's like, well, everything is
radically transparent. So what's the worst thing that could happen? And it's not just bad actors somehow misusing your information. It's just all the downstream consequences, all the negative externalities of having a public by default system like that. It's not just like bridges getting immediately hacked. It's just the type of
system that radical transparency is enabling is not a sustainable system. And it's not actually a decentralized system. In fact, I think that privacy and decentralization are very linked. My very first slide on stage at Cosmoverse said privacy needs decentralization. Decentralization needs privacy.
Decentralized systems aren't sustainable without privacy private systems aren't sustainable without decentralization So these are just the two halves of the equation to make actually empowering systems So hopefully people start to understand that piece of it and again, it's it's not just about like if
If we can encrypt my information on the blockchain, then I can't get hacked. I mean, that's not it's not a silver bullet. These are always going to be issues in our space because something is living online, whether it's public or not, your information or your resources can be a target. But again, people are starting to
understand this stuff. They are starting to have a better intuition for privacy, especially in Web 3 because they live so long without it. We're just trying to make sure consumers understand that they do have a choice in these systems. Bear markets are the best time to do that education because people are less blinded by number go up. They start thinking more fundamentally about what the core principles of these systems should be.
I don't call it bear market. I call it a builders market because this is where the noise is separated from the space. You have the two builders that are going to be there to say, hey, look, I really want to get into it. And they have more resources to kind of be able to, yeah, not see number go up number go down. It's not about price. If you come into the space thinking it's about price, there's so#
that we're going to be wanting to, you should probably get into. But yeah, like Tor, like how you said, it was basically like a security kind of like overlaps with privacy, but it's technically two different systems. And one of the things that we kind of like saw recently with the United States was that they basically said that they're going to be placing down members
is liable for votes that are on chain. And once again, you guys also did have the shockwave update as well that just came out I think yesterday to kind of like upgrade the network and also show that there's on one of the sections is basically secret dows. Can you kind of like go a little bit more until like secret dows?
Yeah, well, there's two things here. One is there's an actual project called Secret Dow. They're specifically building infrastructure for Dow's on secret and actually they're going to be our guests this week for secret spaces, which we do every Tuesday. So if you go and you follow the secret network official account, you'll get notified.
We do those 4pm UTC every Tuesday. So there are guests this week if you're really interested in secret dows, they're building a whole platform for that. But in general, the idea is that dows can make great use of programmable privacy and all these fundamental capabilities that you get with secret contracts. Part of that can
be for managing voting in the real world. Your votes are not public, but it's a fault when you make them. After the fact, you can have provable outcomes for a vote, but in general, you have the right to privacy for the vote that you cast in a democratic election in the US, for example. That's usually a good thing.
it usually leads to outcomes where people actually vote their conscience instead of being pressured or brighed or otherwise held accountable for the vote. Now that said, there are other systems, however, where you do want public accountability for the vote, and that might be in things like the Senate, where you're
of other councils. So you do want the flexibility in a doubt to have all these structures. Should my vote be public when I cast it, should it only be public after all the votes are counted, but still assignable to me, should it never be revealed publicly, but the outcome revealed all of these things. That's flexibility that we want in our systems and
In the real world, those are systems, you know, that's flexibility that we should have in our systems in Web 3. And right now, to have decentralized systems basically means to only work within the radical transparency model where everything must be public as soon as you make it. Dows also can benefit from secret contracts in many other ways, though, including
Managing multi-chain treasuries we just had a lot of conversations about this down in Columbia during Convert during Cosmos first as well Talking about ways in which secret contracts can be managed by multiple members of DAO's like through a multi-sig approach where They're managing a bunch of assets on secret
it privately, you can implement this as private investment dows as well, which is exciting because now dows can control assets without needing all of that treasury to be public to every other individual like there are private holding corporation, again, flexibility that you would want because maybe
If you do want your doubt to have full transparency of the total links to all members of the blockchain, but maybe you just want the doubt to only have those holdings transparent internally. Maybe you want some kind of permissioning model where doubt members above some certain threshold or multi-sign members only, maybe they only have the read permissions to see where
assets are deployed or how they're being held. Again, it just comes down to a better design space for DAO's and more sustainable DAO's if you can only have radically transparent DAO structures, those have not proven to be sustainable anywhere in the world. So I don't see why they'd be sustainable in Web 3. They're an
experiment, but I think all the really interesting things happen when you can have this design space of programmable privacy that helps you figure out what actually makes Dow's useful, sustainable, and valuable versus just working backwards from a radical transparent model to say, "Okay, how do we turn this into something interesting?" Because I just don't think we will.
They're especially with like all of the things going on down so everyone's starting to create a down and they need these tools and like for them, it's like they need to understand that privacy is one of the biggest things that you know privacy goes along with security and both of them have to intertwine connectively in in order to make sure
that it's a perfect, not a perfect system, but like the better systems that you know compare to the ones that we have now. And like if you're looking at like even like governance votes right now too, like I can go on there and look at every single governance vote of anyone. You don't want that information to be placed out there, just in case if you're like, hey,
look, I'm very big into this protocol or I'm very big into this token. And for there, you know, I don't want my information to be shared. So like, tell us a little bit more about like the toggles of basically like the the privacy issues that the privacy portions that we have on secret.
Realistically, everything is a toggle. I mean, these are just programmable contracts itself executing code. It can really represent anything that you can currently represent on Ethereum, except now you get to say whether the input data, output data, or state of the contract is public or private in this particular way. But everything starts private by default. The only thing that somebody needs to understand
conceptualize this is just understanding that this is unidirectional. It doesn't work in the other direction. You can't start with a public by default system and then decide which pieces are private and which pieces are public. It only works if you start with a private by default system at which point you can choose to disclose. Because once something is public, it's public. You don't get to say oops,
let's wrap it up again. At that point, the cat is out of the bag. So once you understand that this thing only works in one direction, you can start to see why the private-by-default approach makes sense, even if you want everything to be public eventually. It's the only version of the system that gives you this level of control and customizability. The other direction.
is inflexible, insecure, and yet it's the model that every other blockchain has, just because that was the first technology that was discovered. That doesn't mean it's the right technology, but it does mean that you're going to listen to every other blockchain in the world, try to convince you that a radical transparency model is a better, bottled more sustainable, more secure.
just fundamentally, it isn't, and it can't be. But when it comes to tokens, like one example that I always use to help people just understand and conceptualize it is that of a non-functional token on secret. On Ethereum, I think NFTs are actually pretty useless. And I say that as somebody who really loves the creativity of the NFT space,
who loves creators, who loves art. But, eth-based NFTs are very shallow. They really just say, "This is a pointer to some JPEG somewhere. It does not convey in itself any sort of ownership rights." It's just a marker. It's just a receipt, essentially.
But the art itself, you know, you could issue another NFT that points to the same file, points to the same art. It won't be held in high regard if you're not the actual issuer, or maybe there's some sort of legal system for enforcing IP rights, but fundamentally you could just create another NFT pointing to the same art.
The read access is the same for everybody on the blockchain even if right access is limited even if only one person is considered the creator Even if only one person is considered the owner so they're the only person who can move it or sell it or whatever else It's a very shallow idea because everybody else can see exactly what it is and can see inside it and
It's just a very narrow design space. Suddenly, however, if you make this a secret NFT, you have this non-fundable token contract on secret. The space is very vast because ownership could either be public or private or protected, meaning certain people
know that you own it or others don't and you choose who to disclose to, you can also have metadata with the same features. Your metadata could be public or it could be private or it could be protected. Certain people can see the metadata fields inside the NFT and others can't. Or maybe
Maybe you have dynamic metadata, which is also part of the token contract on secret. So you can update as the creator, the creator has the right to update the private metadata, or maybe the owner has the right to edit the private metadata or certain fields and not others. The point is that this is
arbitrarily interesting. This is arbitrarily programmable. You just get this entirely new axis of programmability around access control and about readability, which is really what makes these NFTs interesting. And on ETH, losing that, and I mean this
for every blockchain. I'm not picking on if we could say the same for Solon or Polygon or whatever else. On all of these systems, you're losing that functionality, you're losing that design space and you just get a, you know, a meaningfully, not a worse experience if all you care about is, you know,
money and flipping these things, but it's just as an artist or as a creator, I just think it's a meaningfully less interesting system and one that I would not assume to be a sustainable as what we're trying to create on secret. So hopefully that helps people understand what we're talking about with programmable privacy and what's actually possible with these kinds of systems.
You're able to program it to where it's like hey look I don't want them to see the metadata. I don't want them to see the transfer. Well the transfer is there because all the note but the thing about the nodes that they don't see who's sending it to where. So it's kind of like a it's a really private enabled already compared to hey look if I go on to
Ethereum or any other EVM compatible chain, you can kind of see where everything is going at every single moment and track where everything's at. So I like the idea of being able to say, "Hey, look, I want to toggle this off. I don't want people to see this." Or even the metadata portion was really interesting too. Being able to say, "Hey, look,
You're not able to see this message because then you can also start sending messages online and kind of creating like this I am system where you know you want to send NFTs as messages and then from there the user is able to view it and not have it leaked out because they don't own the NFT so it makes for a more
a more focused area to where you want this data to go to the certain individual instead of having it spread out everywhere. Anyone can go on there and be able to send messages to each other without having their information leaked about it.
I also wanted to go ahead. No, I was going to say, yeah. Yeah, I was I was I was diving down into Shockwave yesterday and I was like, there's so many possibilities that like my mind was just starting to fire off real quick, but also want to
It's kind of like talk about privacy as a service as well that you guys just kind of like enabled. So like for example, Gantal contract on Juno, a Dex aggregator to, you know, including secret swaps and then also a little bit about kind of like the the secret tokens on there as well.
Yeah, we can talk so I was just talking about non-fungible tokens this now, but it's gonna if you want to talk about You know all the fungible tokens on secret and what you get from that I mean secret defy there's a lot of power that you get with this function like you can Have front running resistance for every defi out
application and there's so much that gets built on that design space. The two main projects right now in the secret ecosystem exploring that stuff on the D5 side have been CNN and now shade launching a lot of their things. We also have projects like Buttonswap in the ecosystem, Polymer is another project that
also is going to get talked about on this week's Twitter spaces. So there's a ton of secret D5 projects already and they all take advantage again of these private by default features. But beyond the privacy aspect, they're just innovative period. Just because we're private by default and that doesn't mean privacy is the only thing we innovate on. We've had projects launch on secret that
never existed anywhere else that could have technically existed in other chains. But those builders, they choose to build on secret, not just because we have these privacy guarantees, but because they trust us to be a sustainable network. Because of the privacy guarantee, they infer that we're still going to be here building in five or 10 years, just like we were here
five years ago, they know it's a sustainable ecosystem. They know the community doesn't give up on things. That gives builders a lot of confidence coming and building in the secret ecosystem, whereas you know there's always the chain to Azure that launched that week or the week before and that's easy to get excited about. Maybe you can milk a little bit of money out of it in the short-term
But if you're a builder really trying to build something for the next decade, they seek out the secret ecosystem. And a lot of those builders are the innovators, the ones where whether they're leveraging the privacy or not directly in some aspect of their application, what they care about is sustainability, and they care about knowing that the ecosystem they're committing to is still going to be here.
at the time where they're really inflecting and onboarding uses of other ecosystems, they need to know that the layer one is going to be growing alongside with them. So we do see a lot of innovative products launching, even regardless of the privacy such as bonds, you know, shade launched the first bonds in the Cosmos ecosystem and see an launch an amazing like the first primary
by default lending protocol. So all these things coming together at the same time is really impressive and I just think it's time to get people to start paying attention. Yeah, the reason I brought up it because like also for NFTs and kind of like the narrative of NFTs as well is that it could be in
comes together harmoniously to where all this information you decide on what toggles you want to have on there. Whether it's going to be, hey look, this information that's placed within this NFT is not not viewable until you own it or you can have view access and say you can actually view my NFT because we're watching a movie. So you can watch it with me together.
Oh, yeah, I should of course point out that we've already had a ton of innovation on the NFT side around like streaming and things like that with the Kill Roy project and Legendown where yeah by minting the NFT that became your key for watching the movie it was your encryption key it wasn't just
token gating, which is pretty straightforward and also a security risk, but we won't talk about that too much. Just know that, yeah, what this unlocks for the media world, even with secret contracts is super, super powerful. And yes, exactly as you're saying, like there is now a bridge between the default
and the metaverse world using NFTs as a primitive. It's just, these are very small distinctions, right? It's ownership of something. There's some amount of that something. It's either unique or it's part of a series or it's completely fungible and meant to be exchangeable with similar things.
It's all just a design space. I think the words trick us into thinking that things are more different than they are, but these contracts are actually very, very, very similar and they all draw on the same core capabilities of the layer once that they're built on. So yeah, there's a ton that we haven't even begun to explore, but there is a ton that we have.
And I think people don't understand whenever you're talking about you just said meta versus and it kind of like brought something to my mind. A lot of these meta versus are kind of like let's say browser based or kind of like based areas to where you are down on an application or going into another service. So
with each one of these as well is that these now, these now metaverses are able to collect data from you that once again it's basically the next Facebook, the next kind of like Instagram to kind of find ways to of course incorporate that data but there's some data that you do not want to have on so like for example
So if there's some metaverses that are being built on secret, that's going to be hey look. We're not going to take browser data. We're not going to take user data. Only the data that you actually place to us is the ones that you entrust us with. And then it goes into the network, right?
So basically with a let's say for example like the meta versus like if you're looking at I just call it out. Let's say decentralized right you go into decentralized and it's a browser based metaverse which happens is that it actually tracks a lot of information from you especially browser based location browser based kind of like settings so for example
So, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you#
area without having to provide all this information. Well, I think and to be clear, there's no there's no perfect, perfect solution. I'm not going to ever over sell secret and be like this is the end all B L or for privacy because then then it starts to you should have your you should always be suspicious.
If somebody sells anything to you like that where it's like we've finally built the perfect solution. We've built a meaningfully better solution that's substantially better than anything that's come before it and meaningfully different from anything else you use today. So yes, that does provide choice for users and it does preserve choice for developers, but it doesn't perfectly protect all data because
Yes, there is metadata that you leak when you interact not with the network, but with like a depth front end or when you when you're actually sending information to the application itself or if the application you're interacting with makes some aspect of the information public, right? We're not saying that you're entering a beautiful black box that nothing can escape what we're doing is is
building a better system and one that should be more sustainable and more in the user's interest but never perfect. With something like Decentraland, we can build a much better Decentraland. In fact, we should. The thing that disturbs me about Decentraland is not really that I should be clear about how I say this.
If Decentral Land sells itself as like the alternative to the Facebook Metaverse, the open Metaverse of the future that's going to be so much better and so much more empowering for users. And then it's going to be public by default at the same time and involve all of this leakage on platform.
users should be educated about why that claim is just not going to be okay. Like it is not okay to be like we're meaningfully better than Facebook and then be so much more substantially worse for protecting user data, even then a webtoon system because it's all
public by default. The metaverse is not about a radical, transparent system. We want all of these other goods like we want it to be verifiable and correct. We want there to be accountability. We want there to be permissionlessness and composability. We want people
to be able to safely leave the platform without losing all their data, we won't use our own data, a user owned metaverse. But the public by default system, the radically transparent system is not user owned. It just happens to be built on a public blockchain. What disturbs me
is when we sell it differently. Decentralized wants to exist and talk to users and get them experimenting with that system. I have no problem with experimentation. It's only when people start to get the perception whether through marketing or YouTube influencers or otherwise that this is
This is what the Facebook metaverse competitor should look like. Then I get really disturbed. Then I get really scared because if we tell users the choices between a radically transparent metaverse and the Facebook metaverse, they're not being confronted with the third much better option, which is do this on secret.
Yeah, especially with if there could be the Facebook of the Metaverse, there's a way in another Cambridge Analytica that happened. Just different Metaverses as well. All this information that's placed out there, people need to remember that.
They are giving this as value. It's basically the exchange of value. Privacy is your value of data that you want to sell it across. And not a lot of people are asking for their data. Not a lot of people are asking for privacy, but they have to remember that it's a fundamental right. If you even look up kind of like the
The universal declaration of human rights you also see that a right of privacy the right to privacy where you want to share information or not to share information is actually a human basic right and this has been this has been expressed since 1948 you know throughout the
to the rest of the UN community and the kind of like the rest of the world as well is that you should have a way to own your data and want to be able to say, hey look, I don't want to send this information out. I want it to be only to this person or only to that person, only to a selective group so that it's not just shared everywhere because that data is yours.
is personal. And it can have some value and you don't want to have it shared across all the social media. You don't want it on the blockchain because now anyone can go up there and look up your data. If they're not able to find my data, that's perfectly fine. If I want to share it with you, then it's something that I can let you know about.
Yeah, select selective sharing is what it's about. I mean, I'm not going to also sit here and pretend that everybody's data is worth like millions of dollars, like generally speaking, no, you know, what we're doing online. It's not about how much it's worth to a corporation. The point of privacy is not to say my data is worth a million dollars.
I should make a million dollars from it. The point is that it should be a consent based system so that when you do consent, you do keep whatever value to the data is there or you can build that value together with other users. You don't have to give it to a platform by default or give it to chain analysis by default. So again, I'm trying
trying to sell exactly what I believe the solution is. And I'm trying to describe the problem exactly as I see it. But I also see just as much propaganda occasionally on the other side of all of these issues about, you know, take control of your data, like harness all of the dollar amount of your data.
To me, it's not about the money. We're over capitalizing this issue. It's about consent and sustainability and all of these softer things, but the things that actual societies are built on. That's what we should be thinking about here is what's the kind of world we'd like to live in, regardless of how much money we make from that world.
Yeah, the data shouldn't be kind of like the it shouldn't be monetary, but if you have the option to kind of opt in and say, hey, look, maybe I want to view a little bit more ads, but yeah, that's not the core intent of privacy is like not to have it as like thinking of it as a dollar amount because once again, yeah, not everyone's going to have a million dollars worth of what we
called social analytics. For example, if you look at ads that are going to be placed online, people target you into categories or what they consider properties of likes interest and everything. But if you're able to opt out of that system and say, "Hey, look, I only wanted to share it to this news provider," or, "I only wanted
to share information to this other person. That privacy model is then able to say, hey, this person is the only one that actually understands this data without having it. But basically without having social bots come in and harass you as well, especially on the social media platforms.
Oh god yeah, social media privacy. I mean at least the conversation is different now than it was years ago ever since the Cambridge Analytica stuff became public at least people understand what they've already given up but yeah, I mean again, it's all about a trade-off some people are completely willing to
totally give up their privacy to be able to remember when their friends birthdays are. But you know, you can't really force users to make a different trade off. All you can do is provide a meaningfully better solution and work your ass off to build ecosystems around those solutions.
Because most of these social products again, they don't get their value directly from the privacy they get it from the communities They get it from the network effects of those platforms and if you don't scale those network effects enough if you can have a totally private Facebook alternative that five people use That's not a meaningfully better system for the problem that
it's actually trying to solve. So a big piece of our focus here in the secret ecosystem is it's not just building the foundation, it's also how do we support the data ecosystem to scale to the point where if there is a social value or a network effect value to the products built on the network, you know, how do we get our products to that point where it's
meaningfully competitive with the web too world. And that's a decade long process. But it is something that we take very seriously. And it's part of why part of our mission and purpose also revolves around interoperability. We don't want to be a silo. It's very hard to be a billion user network in a silo.
Yeah, like it's basically like enabling it to them. It's like this option is not placed on public by default blockchain. So just enabling that option for them, allowing them to understand that there's more tools that they can actually use, especially having around the privacy area. And also the, you know, secret is
on the IBC ecosystem as well. It's all about interoperability and helping create these infrastructures. I also saw a recent one where there was a hackathon that was going on in the US government that was basically for was it was a hackathon in the
in the US government, and they actually won the hackathon by using Secret and also Akash as well to kind of like go into the hackathon, and then they're also now having it to where it's hosted on Akash and then also utilizing Secret Smart Contracts as well.
That was crazy. Yeah, I think it was the DOD that yeah, that really helped with the communication we've been trying to make, which is like privacy is important to everybody, individuals and institutions and everybody's been like, but governments will never like privacy, they'll never like any of this, obviously governments love privacy.
They don't always love your privacy, but they definitely understand privacy and they value it and they're every, every government around the world understand the principle of privacy and why they want to be able to selectively disclose data. We also want governments to be more accountable, which is why
decentralized systems are important for democratizing power. But at the same time, we're not asking for governments to be beholden to the radical transparency model one reason being because they would never agree to it, but another reason being I don't think that's actually a positive way to organize society. There has to be the ability for certain organizations to selectively disclose information.
So this hackathon project, right, they win this hackathon essentially with this combination of decentralizing through a cash and then keeping private through secret and that's going to point a path forward for a lot of people who want to build meaningful applications for institutions that
that serve the interests of individuals. The only thing we have to avoid is building technologies for institutions that only serve those institutions that don't end up impacting end users positively. That is definitely possible people could build those things, but we just have to make sure we're also building the other things, and then we have to trust
that there will be individuals within institutions who share that approach. This is kind of like the way that if you guys haven't heard of the Onion Router, the Onion Router basically was created by the US government and the naval arm to kind of be able to send information and have it kind
like readily, kind of like readily disperse, like governments love privacy. They do. No one wants to have like a different document sent to, you know, different documents leaks or different areas of information that they don't want public. There's a lot of information that they do not want public, but they want it to be where it's an option to be like for sure they're not going to use
Ethereum. If you're looking at that kind of like that specter, because then it kind of view everything. If a public and view all of your information, how is it private for them? So I think that secret whenever the Department of Defense news came up and I was like, this is amazing because now you can have it to where governments are now starting to see the usability of what we're
trying to build. Like the space of the builders is where we're trying to push the innovation next, but also keeping it to where it's like, yes, we do. There are going to be bad actors in this space. There are going to be a lot of good actors as well. And the good actors is the one that we really want to focus on because everyone has to have it, you know, everyone has to have this as a fundamental right. So why#
Say that last bit again. I caught everything up to that last sentence. Just enabling users to be able to view and build on because like, you know, like, like everyone doesn't understand that there's other options and other alternatives and other areas that they haven't fully fixed into and privacy is one of those areas.
is to where it is a fundamental right for every human right to have the right to privacy, but governments really, really love their data. And for them, they do not want to have it to where it's public-bodied fault because then everyone is able to view their data. Yeah, I mean, that's what that's all I mean is like everybody understands that part of governments and so
So forth, governments understand it better than individuals. They just have less incentive to fix the problem because governments tend to already have power and users do not. But again, like these applications will not win because they're private by default. They're going to win because they provide users value that they can't.
can't get in other systems. And until they do, it's us who have something to prove. Even if fundamentally these these season, these assumptions around privacy make sense, it's not enough for something to make sense. You have to create value. And then the users should be the ones who capture
that value and build systems based on that value that expand their autonomy, their empowerment, to give them more freedom, that give them more control of the systems and more ownership of the systems that they're using. But I don't take for granted that just lapping privacy on top of an existing application.
is going to break the modes that that application has already worked to establish. I just think that it's up to the layer one and dapped builders to figure out what end user adoption looks like and how we can get from here to there without just saying like we have these great principles why why isn't it working yet.
That's not a solution, but privacy should enable us to build the solutions that will create that value in a way that it can't in any other Web3 ecosystem. And that's why I'm so bullish on specifically secrets role within Web3, what we can enable for our own ecosystem as well as others.
Yeah, enabling the toggles for privacy and enabling the toggles and giving them more tools as well. Hey, just for the everyone that's listening as well, if you guys have any questions feel free to raise your hand, we'll go ahead and bring them up. We'll do a quick round of questions and everything and then if you guys want to learn more
more about secret, go to secret.network and you'll be able to learn about the ecosystems, how to look into the development process and development resources out of there. If anyone has any ideas like for me example earlier when I said secret, secret network, I am
to be do instant messages, there are grants that are going to be placed on there for different applications that they're pushing for, whether it's tooling, infrastructure, D5, and secret NFTs, and also secret apps like VOLTS and also secret dows and stuff like that too.
Oh yeah, put up hands if you've got questions. I have a hard stop pretty soon, but I'll stay five in case people have questions about secret around the DAP ecosystem or
or really anything else. Yeah. We've got some secret people in the audience. Yeah, so just go ahead and raise your hands and then we'll go ahead and invite you up. But once again, I wanted to kind of like do the quick definition of privacy as well. Privacy is the ability for an individual group to seclude themselves
or information about themselves and here I express themselves selectively. So you are able to have this as a toggle to say, I want to give this person my data, I don't want to give this person my data, but also gives a lot of value for users because especially for the ecosystems that are building, you want it to be where
It's private at certain areas and you want it to be where you can kind of control those areas. So for developer for developers that are looking at creating it as well, creating, you know, their application. So what does privacy mean for your users and kind of like how can we, how can we kind of enable that for them?
I got one hand up. I'm gonna go ahead and write him up.
All right, secret Africa.
So yeah, this is the quick way, quick way question. So I was also asked, so like I was also now we can ask a little bit to see what I could see there when it comes to 5 or 3.
It was a little bit hard to hear if you can say it again. It was a little muffled. Oh sorry, don't you know?
That's better, yeah. Oh, and so I was actually, so also in communistist deliberately, so other ecosystem in concert privacy, in all sequence, this caliber, so that ecosystem like here or for adults, and I sell them and so on and so forth.
Michael helped me here. I think it was a little bit. It was a little bit hard, but I heard some of them where you were asking about the difference between secret ecosystem and others of other proteins. Oh, no. Sorry, that was not a question. Like, I mean, me.
Yeah, can you repeat the question? All right, so I was actually I was always sick much better. All right, so I was actually I was on can't see with this cable so I could system like
total ecosystem to near, book, dot, cello and so on. So that is the privacy. Also, we can be skill able to do this ecosystem to provide privacy for the Mazor.
Do you think near so I'm I'm blockchining no six. That's a little bit easier. I'm I'm talking about everything and I love everything. The thing about near cello and kind of like polka dot you look at polka dot polka dot is now having a relay chain which allows them to be permissioned by
central companies, right? So you have basically the really nodes that are going to be on there. And you have to be, you have to basically win an auction in order to get into the pair of chain slots. So that doesn't enable it to where it's more of mass in terms of people that are able to have these options already.
So the scalability of that portion is only limited to the actors that are going to be the ones that are verifying that this can be transferred for Celo and Celo and near like near is trying to build on a different type of approach like it's completely different in terms of like each blockchain and each use case because for example
If you look at let's say Ethereum, Solana, and Maddick, right? I mean, Ethereum, Avalanche, Phantom, Arbitrum, like they're all based off of the same principle of just a little bit of tweaks that makes them a little bit different. So in terms of scalability, Secret already has a lot of scalability by being in the
IBC blockchain ecosystems. By being able to say, we can collaborate with anyone that's around any of the other projects that are building, any of other layer ones, because layer ones that are able to talk to another is able to scale together instead of scaling as an independent silo.
I think that's a good answer. This is why we are building in the Cosmos ecosystem because there's horizontal scaling and there's vertical scaling. Cosmos is all about for now horizontal scaling using IBC to talk with
other networks so that secret does exactly what it's good at, but it doesn't have to do absolutely everything. There's layer ones that say, oh yeah, we can infinitely scale and infinitely this. And the tradeoff is that they don't do anything interesting. Let's say if you can process a
lot of transactions, but they're all kind of meaningless. To me, that's not a very interesting ecosystem. So, secret is all about more so, privacy, security, sustainability, but also things like performance. We want the chain to be fast. We want it to be low cost.
So we're certainly giving a lot more performance and lower cost than anybody else who's building for privacy at layer one and change that don't care about privacy and security generally they'll they'll be a little bit faster they'll be a little bit more scalable but
There's other ways to scale secret, both horizontally and with IBC and vertically with rollups that are more interesting to us and we think more sustainable than trying to make the layer
one blockchain do absolutely everything. Instead, we just want to make the layer one blockchain very sustainable, very valuable, have a lot of long-term guarantees.
Yeah, think think of it this way. You have let's say let's say it's part of a dow or kind of like a business, right? Each each area of the business is sectioned off into certain departments, whether it's marketing
whether it's sales, whether it's development, you have them all separate. They all do their own, they're all building in terms of what they're doing for their employees and everything, but each one of them has a certain use case.
If you're trying to make everything all in one, it's like you're the jack of all trades in the master of none, but if you're the master of one, you're able to expand on that and be able to say we want to collaborate with, let's say Juneau, we want to collaborate
with Injective Osmosis or even Ethereum as well and say we want to provide that solution to you to where you can have it to where your users are able to enable the privacy section because if you look at like public blockchains they don't have that model.
It's not very private, but if you want to enable that for them, it's easily done. You could have it to where you can integrate Secret into it, and the Secret ecosystem can then validate transactions without having that information then sent out and making it secure.
So it's not like a all in one kind of like solution, but the scalability portion of it is that you're able to scale a whole network independently. But if there's any collaborators, then it kind of is able to come in because they are on IBC.
Yeah, thank you very much. That was my question.
By the way, I love every blockchain. I love it as long as people are building, just FYI, so that it doesn't see like I'm talking shit about some of them. But yeah, anyone else, last person, if anyone has any questions, feel free to also follow TOR as well. TOR is a really great speaker.
So he talks at the central and kind of like all of our conferences as well. Tor is the man. If you guys have not had a hand to listen to any of his talks as well, we have them all online on our YouTube. The reason is because we feel like education and kind of information should be free and accessible. So, Tor, we're also going
see you in Miami, hopefully as well. Definitely would like would love to have you on stage for one of our keynotes. We're going to be working with what was it? Binance and also CoinMarket for redistribution so that we can get this out there. Awesome. I just got back to Chicago from Columbia and it's already 60 degrees here
in Chicago. So anything warm for the month of November is starting to sound pretty compelling. Especially especially in Miami with like art, puzzle and a comic, the community there too. You know, it's last year was a blast. Like you guys had a major presence. You guys also had a major presence in Austin as well.
It's really to kind of bring the community together, right? We want to build our together and have it to where there's one little area so that not everyone's in their own silos. But even for Cosmoverse, I'm not going to lie, I missed it because I was kind of like, make sure I'm placing everything for the central. But I even
reached out to a lot of them saying, "Dank, it's an amazing experience, just like seeing all the pictures. I know that there were tattoos and everything." But, for me, I'm very IBC focused. That's just kind of like my preference, but I really like what you guys are building and I really want to support you guys too in any way.
Appreciate it and thanks for having us on and thanks for the great question from the African community looking forward to Continuing to do these on a more regular basis. This is the last plug for the secret space that we're going to do as well. So it's coming
back Tuesday for PM UTC you can follow the secret network account on Twitter. We're going to host a DAP team from our ecosystem, the secret DAP team. So we'll be going in depth even more into some of the things that we started discussing here.
Thank you. And once again, I really appreciate you hopping on and being able to talk about secret as well and also privacy issues. Once again, if you guys like this, feel free to follow, follow tour and kind of like let him know if you have questions, feel free to also follow, follow tour and all.
Also secret network as well the official official handle and do me a favor just go on to the website join in and kind of dive in already because they're building something that's super crazy in terms of this thing it should have been out a long time ago in terms of like we need this in the ecosystem. So once again, I want to
Thank you, TOR for coming out here. Sorry, I took it so long. No, no, no, no, it's all about building it perfectly, right? Like you want to make sure that it's ready because you don't want to ship out product that's, you know, half. Fair enough. Well, yeah, thanks for having us on.
appreciate the opportunity. Thank you. And then yeah, once again, we'll also have this recorded. So you guys can view in some of it or also shared as well afterwards. Once again, thank you everyone for listening in and tuning in. And once again, thank you, Tor, for really coming on here and helping us educate people.