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Debate round 1: ETH vs XRP (Technical Debate)
Recorded: Sept. 1, 2025 Duration: 2:32:34Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. wow i was i was talking with my mic muted did you guys hear anything i said
no no jesus christ okay i said welcome to debate around one night of Ethereum versus XRP. I hope you guys are ready to dive into a night that is not supposed to be a fight of any sort. Okay. What this is, is just to cross reference, right? Analyze both sides with an open mind, right? Discuss the dichotomy between both chains, right? Because they both have their use cases. They're both unique in their own sense.
And, you know, this is not to incite any sort of rage bait
or anything like that.
This is just to look at everything from both sides
with an open mind.
And, you know, everybody obviously knows what they know.
Nobody knows everything, right?
And so in my opinion, I really do believe
that when we bring minds together,
we can really look at all the data, right?
Or look at all the insight and just maybe come up with some solutions or maybe not even solutions or just give insight to each other.
Right.
And we can merge and build another chain that, um, that's right.
Maybe this is XRP and ETH.
Exactly.
And maybe this is the space we need to stop this hate and this war between XRP
and Ethereum, right?
So welcome Perkat,
the lovely co-host Perkat at your disposal
here representing the Ethereum
side. Yeah, Ethereum Foundation
sent me to represent
Ethereum and I'm going to
represent them and defend them.
Beautiful, beautiful.
I don't know anything.
I've never even hosted a debate before,
so this is a first for me, you guys.
Tell me if I'm doing it wrong at any point, okay?
But, yeah.
We cannot start yet,
as both sides of the debate have not shown up yet, okay?
And, again, I'm going to be cycling through,
through speakers,
right?
If people have a take,
they want to give,
they want to,
you know,
speak on behalf of a blockchain,
or maybe you want to just share a little bit of information,
you know,
like that's,
that's great.
And we're going to try to keep things on topic.
Okay.
It's not going to be a degenerate night where everybody's just screaming and
yelling at each other.
Not going to tolerate that.
Okay.
I got a mute button.
I will use it. So yeah, respect each other. Not going to tolerate that. Okay, I got a mute button. I will use it.
So yeah, respect each other.
First and foremost.
But you know, we like those faces, bro.
We like it when it just divulges into all-out
chaos. I know.
I too enjoy the chaos,
but you know what? At some point you got to say,
I got to put my big boy pants on.
I got to do something serious for once.
And, you know, just be the guy that did something serious at least once in his life.
Oh, best believe I already got a paper rolled for this one, bro.
I'm ready.
I'm already about to get high, waiting for this shit.
So originally, we had Zodomo that was going to represent Ethereum here.
And he had a lot of notes.
And, you know, he's going to study the docs and stuff.
He did not have time to do any of that. He's in transition. He's moving. He's currently busy So he's not able to make it tonight. And so that's why I changed the title to debate round one
We might have a round two hopefully
The next in the near future here
I don't I don't even know how to start a debate. How do you start go? Is that no?
It doesn't work like that, right?
I guess we need to.
So let's go around.
I can ask.
Why do you think,
what is the value proposition of XRP for you against it?
Why do you think it is more important and what value it adds?
The value proposition.
I mean, I think there are several.
What differentiates it from other chains?
For me?
Well, I think personally, and this is not a technical answer at all.
This is a very personal answer.
Yes, personal. Very emotional and personal. Yes, very extremely volatile and emotional. personally and you know this is not a technical answer at all this is a very personal answer yes
very emotional and personal yes very extremely volatile and emotional yes just kidding not that much um but uh the diff i mean for me i guess the value proposition for xrp uh it's very attractive
to me because it has the most upward potential than any other chain. I mean, every other chain has had their run already, right?
Like, you're not going to get a 10x out of Ethereum, right?
I mean, not in the next, like, two, three years anyway.
You're not going to get a 10x out of Bitcoin.
I mean, maybe.
I don't know.
Some people like to differ, but I don't think so.
XRP, on the other hand, I mean, it's barely had its run, right?
It's been suppressed for so long, I think.
What I love the most about the chain is the community.
Although it's very small, right?
You have a very small chain right now.
It's very underused, I want to say.
You have time to learn, right?
You have time to position yourself.
I think that in itself is a value proposition
overall. Um, you know, that's not to say that Ethereum has no value proposition. Of course it
does. I mean, you've got smart contracts, you've got a lot of stuff going on. It's the most built
on chain. Um, but as far as XRP goes, I, I don't prefer it to Ethereum in any way, but I think that it has more potential to grow than Ethereum, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, and to piggyback off of that, I feel like I move patiently with XRP.
Because I noticed that when a lot of chains do things too fast, they don't account for like the little things and i feel like with xrp it like accounts
for like those small things like being able to use your liquidity in a token and you know setting a
trust line so people can't just airdrop you random shit like just like little things like that that
shows that they're you know like they're moving forward but like they're not in a hurry they want
to do everything right and properly.
Ooh, we got XRP all Adam showing up.
This is going to be good.
This is going to be a good night.
Yeah.
I think XRP overall definitely, it has more of a ROI type of,
it has a bigger ROI potential
than Ethereum does,
in my opinion.
I guess that's the value proposition for me, right?
That's the main value proposition.
Besides that, I mean,
all the beautiful people on this chain,
all the beautiful tech
that's been developed, right? Even though we're
still in infancy stages,
we're about to see something beautiful here.
But I don't want to get too crazy bullish on either side.
I want to try to keep things technical, which is something I'm not good at.
So stop me if I digress.
And I see Hanzo with his hand up there. Did you have something to add to, I guess, your opinion of what the main value proposition
for you is on XRP?
Oh, yeah, dude, of course. So with X xrp man i just keep it plain and simple like i with eep too uh in the long run
it's just to me dude the gas fees is unattractive bro and xrp just moves a little quicker and you
guys know this like you get that instant well i think i think the gas fees were definitely uh
some they were definitely uh some
they were definitely a counter argument at some point maybe a few years ago but this has definitely
been fixed on chain like it's actually very smooth now i mean still dude uh overall though xrp i feel
like in my opinion just moves a little quicker you know what i'm saying so and that's why you know
it's been suppressed and think of this way dude the banks and institutions already been you know what i'm saying so and that's why you know it's been suppressed and think of
this way dude the banks and institutions already been you know tests running this for years you
know doing it like behind closed doors behind scenes and the fact that like other countries
are now just picking it up dude makes me very bullish on it dude you know this japan's already
using it dubai's already using it so and it and it's only the beginning. So, and we're still
early. So the fact that, you know, that it's moving at this, you know, speed, it's only going
to grow faster. So. Yeah. Hanzo, just to piggyback off of that, I think that the, and to answer
Perkad's question, the value proposition of XRP over Ethereum really does come down to
three things. Efficiency, certainty, it does what it says it will do, and accessibility. So is it
scalable? Is it reachable to other people? And is it reachable to other people fast and easy?
Right? And I think that the way that the XRPL was designed from the ground up, it is a global
payment like liquidity network. It settles things in three to five seconds at basically fractions
of a penny. And there's no like congestion about smart contracts and things like that where,
yeah, Ethereum has solved their high gas fees, but ultimately they have variable settlement
times, right?
So their settlement times can shift depending on how congested the network is.
What I like about XRP is that it offers predictability and all of those things when it comes to those
three points that I talked about, right?
Efficiency is absolute certainty that the tech will do what it says it will do, and
then that it's accessible to a lot of people, right?
And I mean, on top of that, XRPL has its permissionless AMM functionality.
So it's just liquidity galore.
You turn the faucet on and the liquidity wants to be porn through XRPL through
the ledger because of the AMM the automated market maker which I'm sure someone will probably break
down further into this but um that's what I really like permissionless it's decentralized it's great
tech and it's cheap and quick and reliable. Hmm i don't agree with the like the centralization part because it's actually like people most of
the people don't really like it because it's more like tend to be more centralized because
ripple labs is holding most most of the most of the xrp and mostly banks are using it
so for example like eat people and who are just very supporting of uh censorship and like eat people and who the people who are against centralization like cyberpunk people don't
really like it just because of it and i'm i want i also want to ask like i think there's a
um logical mistake in here because
actually xrp is not really good for the apps
because it's not built on smart contracts
and it's not really scalable as much as EAT.
So I think adoption is very limited also because of it
because there is no DApps.
I don't know if, does it have any DApps?
Yeah, we have a ton of DApps.
It has like NFT stuff, yeah.
XRP Cafe is actually top 10 in the world.
And I think what I forgot, I appreciate that position,
but I think it's a misconception about what Ripple owns
because at the end of the day, it's a large escrow position, but XRP Ledger
itself is decentralized.
So the tech behind it.
And Ripple only owns 2% or less of their validator nodes, and anyone can run a validator, right?
So I think that that's really where the power comes from.
I mean, anyone can, uh we brought this up in this
space uh well yesterday i don't mean to interrupt you excuse me um it it takes quite a bit of
computing power to run i just tried entry for valid can you see my hands raised no no okay
i was gonna say i mean it takes a lot to run a validator on xrp it's not that it's not like it's
like you know three clicks and you're in.
It's a fucking, you got to have a fucking, almost a supercomputer just to run one.
I don't, I think that's a misconception.
I'm going to try to get somebody up here that has actual fact on that.
It's relatively cheap, actually, to start a validator node.
From what I heard, you can do so for like under $1,000.
But I need to know a little
more. Anybody down there? I think XRPL Adam could definitely answer that. Or maybe Medici,
he probably knows. Well, when it comes to the value proposition, I feel like they both can go
hand in hand and help each other out, right? Because with XRP, you can do fast transactions,
cross-border payments with Ethereum of smart contracting.
It's why we see, you know, the EVM side chain on the XRP network.
So we have access to those dApps and things like that now with XRP.
So we'll have access to like Aave's protocol
and all those kind of stuff very soon.
It's true.
And Percat also mentioned like adoption.
I think that's like a really good topic that we should probably get into
because like, yeah, we talk about XRP like being adopted for banks,
but it's not only for banks, right?
You can also tokenize real world assets and all of these great things
on the XRPL as well.
But Percat, I'm curious to know, or if anyone has any insight on what Ethereum is contributing
to solve real world problems.
I just would like to know.
I have no idea what they're building over there.
From what I've seen, they have a lot going on.
I was going to say, not to tangent too far off before, I just looked this up through Grok, right?
You need an octa-core processor with at least 64 gigabytes of RAM and a minimum of 50 gigabytes of SSD.
Let's confirm this.
Adam, is this true?
Is it rigorous in terms of specs to run a validator node for XRP?
64 gigabytes of RAM is not something that the commercial user has.
Yeah, I would definitely recommend at least 64 gigabytes of RAM.
Not even just for validator nodes, but if you're running a submission node or something like that for development purposes, definitely at least 64 gigabytes of RAM.
And yeah, obviously like most consumer machines do not have that much.
And yeah, obviously most consumer machines do not have that much.
So it is a little more pricey, I guess, from a standpoint of like, okay, I want to run a validator node.
You know, like it's got to be, you want a little bit more of like a computer machine.
Yeah, from a consumer standpoint who wants to run a solo validator node, it's not cost effective.
From a standard point, who wants to run a solo validator?
No, that's not cost-effective.
That's the point I was trying to get across.
That's interesting because we were in the space with David Schwartz the other day,
and he was saying that it's relatively cheap to get started to become a validator.
It is.
I mean, even with all that stuff labeled out, what's it come to?
Do you think that's expensive?
I would say you could run a validator and even outside
of the unl like you wouldn't need 64 gigabytes but like if you're on the unl validator i would
i would run it probably at least 64 i think optimal is probably like 128 um to run like on
the unl to just for stability purposes but if you're just like a hobbyist or just wanted to participate in,
you know,
in the network governance,
I would say like go for it with 16 gigabytes and,
and see how it works.
You know,
I think 64 gigabyte processors are $800 minimum for the PC alone.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
Right.
We were talking about,
yeah,
I don't think,
yeah,
absolutely.
And I don't think it's like,
yeah,
not everybody who's getting onboarded wants to do that, though.
No, but I mean, it's important for decentralization, wouldn't you think?
I mean, yeah, it is.
How many people are participating in, you know, making sure Ethereum is stable, though, dude?
Plenty.
Both solo and cluster validators, dude.
It's one of the most decentralized chains on earth
what percentage of people do you think
want to actually participate in that
probably not the retail right
I wouldn't even think a minute amount
of retail would I don't even think
hardly any of them will
well hardly any other people here I can imagine
want that either right but that's kind of
the point of decentralization.
What does it take to become a validator
on Ethereum?
All you have to do
is really stake, right?
It's permissionless.
You can just follow the steps
and you can be a
validator, but it's so much easier
done.
So it's more accessible, right?
All it really takes is a certain amount of capital, I think? It can be a validator, but it's so much easier. It's so much easier than... So it's more accessible, right? Yeah.
All it really takes is a certain amount of capital, I think.
It used to be like 32 Ethereum.
Yeah, 32 ETH.
How much is that?
Probably over, what, 120K?
130K?
It's probably cheaper than doing XRPs, isn't it?
And it's very, like, an energy conception is so, like, low right now with the proof of stake.
It's so much easier.
Yeah, I was just going to say that.
Like, you can just stake and you can, you know, help validate.
You'll get rewarded for it, too.
Hmm.
So, okay, we have better rewards as being a validator on Ethereum than we do on XRP, right?
Yeah, that's why it's expensive.
Okay, so there is incentive to being a validator on Ethereum, and that comes with a lot of perks and some different things you can do from people who, let's say, don't run a validator node.
And as for XRP, right, like there is no incentive and there's literally no reward from the network itself.
You just do it for what, for the brownie points.
But there's something else, right?
There's like there's other things you can do besides, I mean, do things for incentive, right?
There's like another reason.
I just don't know enough about it to really speak on it.
You're contributing to the blockchain, right?
You're contributing compute and you're contributing to the overall decentralization of the chain.
So that in itself is incentivization for those who do care about that.
But again, this is just one, like you guys were talking about, one minute aspect of blockchain tech outside of just, you know, trading and NFTs and things like that.
So it's just a niche point to bring up that is it does differentiate
between chains naturally okay i actually just checked right now and xrp is also requires low
energy consumption it's like efficient consensus algorithm but um builders who run validators are seen as network stewards,
not like validators like on EAT.
You have more influence on the network
when you are running a validator
and becoming part of the ecosystem.
But on XRP, you're just like helping to facilitate the ecosystem.
But RippleNet and CBDC is just actually dominating the network.
You're just, it's like working for them.
So it's centralized.
And you have so much exposure to maximal extractable value,
and you're earning mainly ETH rewards by staking tokens.
And you actually have so much plastic in the ecosystem
when you're a validator, a term validator.
So you have more exposure and influence in the network and
actually is this decentralized, more decentralized.
Yeah, I see Zodomo down there. Amazing if he could come up here. I know he's busy, he's been moving.
He's been caught up moving stuff. So Zeno's here too.
Let's go Zeno. I knew he would come.
Awesome, awesome. I guess where do we start here right this isn't really uh like an attack on either chain right it's more of like a cross
analysis to kind of like digest the dichotomy between the two and you know just figure out
key differences strengths and weaknesses and you know be able to look at things objectively rather
than emotionally and you know not argue over it so i think this is a good space overall for the space uh in terms of
spacing and for the sake of debate we are very strong speakers right now on the each side let's
go this is what i wanted this is what i want to welcome zodomo. Welcome, Zeno. Thank you so much for showing. Yeah, GR, is Zodomo up here? I don't see him.
Yeah, I'm getting from this sidewalk right now.
That's good. Okay, alright, awesome.
I came here to see Zodomo absolutely
fucking murder people, so
let's go. I'll be in and out of this.
With reasons.
But I'll stay up here.
My welcome, man. I love it.
I love to see it. You know, I love to see it. This is
good. This is healthy. I'm getting chills right now. So, uh where do we start I've never ran a debate before so I'm
like I'm I don't know who it's like I guess you have two people debating right usually
in a traditional debate which this is not going to be a traditional debate so uh we're probably
just going to take time to go to each yeah go ahead summit it's like a UN summit. It's like a UN summit right now. United Nations summit.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that a lot.
I guess give Zodomo the same question, right?
That you guys both answered, right?
About what is the perceived value to you
in regards to the chain of choice that you do prefer.
Yeah, I think this all falls back to value, right?
So Zodomo, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Forgive me if I mess that up.
But what, in your opinion, and I know you might have difficulty answering this, maybe not.
What do you think is the perceived value of XRP, like the perceived value proposition of XRP as a whole?
XRP is a good chain if you need bankers to talk to.
I mean, effectively, like, what is XRP, right?
It's a committee of actual people who get appointed to run a network
as opposed to one can permissionlessly join without talking to anybody,
without having to get on some kind of a ULN list.
You can just run software at home, run software from your garage, run software from your
phone. But with Ripple, the rules are a little bit different. It's hard for me to advocate for
the Ripple position because like to run the code I want to run without having to ask anybody. The
reason why we got into crypto in the first place was to get rid of the
intermediaries,
to get rid of the parties that are central to running these chains.
When,
when it comes to running an Ethereum validator,
I can just do that.
Granted,
I have enough stake in the network to do so.
And I mean,
one of the,
one of the points against Ethereum,
I could say is that 32 ETH is a lot of money,
as opposed to something like a proof-of-work chain where you can just run it with your electricity bill
to the tune of however much electricity you're willing to buy.
But on the other hand, it's a multifaceted thing because Ethereum, you can validate now with as little as 4 ETH.
That's going to go down dramatically over the coming years,
given that the chain is headed in a ZK direction.
When we ZK our layer 1, effectively the validator duties will be reshifted
such that we could have 1 ETH validators.
So that's becoming less of a talking point worth drilling into.
But at the end of the day, what I mean to say is that
anyone can run Ethereum validator
using any set of software.
There's dozens and dozens of permutations
of node software that you can put together yourself.
There's multiple execution clients,
multiple consensus clients.
You can run any of them paired together
on almost any consumer-grade hardware in the world.
It's similar to Bitcoin in that regard
where you can run...
I mean, Bitcoin can obviously run on a dial-up modem,
but Ethereum can run on a $300 Raspberry Pi setup.
So it's very egalitarian in that approach
in that it is truly accessible to everybody.
It's accessible not only amongst the means
that there are high-performance clients
and there are lower
performance clients, but the network doesn't matter. It doesn't care from the perspective
of the network, which you're running. You can run any kind of set of software you want to
validate Ethereum. As long as you are running the rules that the network has agreed to,
or at least 67% has agreed to, you're going to be fine. When it comes to actual
validation of the Ripple network, I would
argue that due to the structure of the
UNL or whatever the fuck that
thing is called, you only need
20% to effectively stall
That system needs
agreement to actually
perpetuate the network. And when you're talking about a network
that's built by bankers for bankers, you're talking about a system where if the bankers
acquire 20 percent of that network and tell you what you need to do for your banker chain to be
used by banks, you don't really have much of a choice in that regard. Like,
credible neutrality is worthwhile. it's very different to be
catering towards a subsection of people say you're competing with swift right like that's where ripple
comes from ripple's origin story is let's build a better swift but who is using swift i would argue
that everyone in this in this call has never used Swift directly. Most couldn't describe what Swift functionally is.
It's a technology for banks to do settlement against other banks
and coordinate their ledgers accordingly
as money moves through different siloed financial systems
operated by each banking participant.
But when you have a credibly neutral chain,
one where everybody plays by the same
rules, that there is no specific party that is taking over that system or needs the system to
do anything, that system is a lot more neutral and a lot more applicable to an online world where
you're not just servicing the needs of US citizens,
you're servicing European citizens, you're servicing African citizens,
you're servicing Asians, you're servicing people around the world,
regardless of where they are, you're servicing AI agents.
These are different use cases, different need sets.
So Ethereum being much more neutral in that regard,
in that it doesn't matter what hardware you run, it doesn't matter who you communicate with, who you are bribing or necessarily even who you are co-located next to, such systems are going to outlast those that are centralized, those that are coordinated such as ripples so like i don't know i don't know i i
i i struggle to see why anyone would want to run a ripple validator given that the act of running
a ripple validator doesn't materially contribute to the network it doesn't materially like it's
not like you get to cast a vote towards anything because your entire your entire core validation system is decided by 32
people like like you don't have any contribution there but unlike ethereum where as long as you're
running the dominant client set you are you are effectively deciding what ethereum is and the more
people that contribute to that dominant client set eventually becomes the network. That's very almost proof-of-work-esque in of itself.
Granted, it's along capital lines
rather than energy consumption lines,
but you still have a game to be played.
But with Ripple, it's purely a social game.
It's not one that actually invokes
any kind of permissionless action.
Now, I see Adam with his hand up there.
I'm sure he's got a very insightful
take here uh go ahead adam yeah so um yeah i just i just wanted to reply by by some of that stuff
and i and i think some of that there's some misconceptions around the consensus and whatnot
um but i just want to preface this to say that you you know, some of my background, like I got started within the Ethereum
ecosystem back in 2017. And I'm, you know, really bullish on Ethereum. I love Ethereum.
But I also love XRP. And there's, you know, really distinct differences between the consensus
mechanisms. And I love both chains. Obviously, I all of my businesses on the, in the XRPL ecosystem.
And I think, you know, there's these misconceptions where people think this UNL list is a, a magical
thing that, you know, Ripple publishes this UNL list and you have to kind of be in the
club to get on this list, but that's entirely not true.
You can run a validator and publish your own UNL
list. And that's part of the consensus. So there's a shared trust between those UNL lists.
So whenever you run a validator, it's based on the shared trust between all of those UNL lists
that are being published on the network within the validator list. So if you spun up enough nodes, obviously you could almost fork the network in a sense
with those shared UNL lists.
Obviously, would that be considered mainnet?
That's a question of preference.
Obviously, you could say it's like Bitcoin Cash
versus Bitcoin regular.
But regardless, there is a whole independent aspect of running a
validator on the network. Anybody can contribute. Obviously, there's no incentive to contribute
that way. And I think validators, in a sense, everybody looks at them as, yes, they secure
the network. But in terms of network health,
I believe personally that full history nodes,
archive nodes,
and also peering hubs are a much more an essential component of network
health overall than just purely validator nodes.
And we spend, you know,
obviously we have no incentive.
The only incentive that we have to keep the network healthy with our businesses, we spend a ton of money running a peering hub for the XRPL and also many, many nodes across our development ecosystem just in terms of supporting our dApps.
But yeah, I just want to preface that,
that Ripple does not control the network.
Ripple, I believe, only runs one validator node now on the network.
The network is entirely run by independent validators.
There's actually been some proposed amendments
that Ripple wanted to see on the network, but that did not get voted in because the validators did not want that.
So it's entirely independent and there's thousands of projects within the network independently building within the XRPL that are outside of Ripple.
So I think that that's another misconception that people have that people think, well, the only value that XRP is tied somehow to the Ripple Corporation, which is entirely untrue.
So, yeah, that's all I wanted to say here.
What does it take to become a Ripple validator?
Do you have to put up any stake?
Do you have to run a proof of work algorithm?
Can you explain what makes you a valid operator or is it simply you're running the client?
It's simply you're running the client. In terms of getting trusted by other validators,
there is, I guess, kind of a component of, you know, putting yourself out there to the public
and saying, hey, I'm running this validator, you know.
There's a networking component to it. Sorry to interrupt.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, longevity and time is kind of a component in building up trust within the other participants of the network.
the other participants of the network.
So you could say it's kind of, you know,
I would compare it to like a hybrid
kind of like proof of authority type network in a sense.
So who's ascribing that trust then?
Because it can't be purely like authority weight-based
such that I could just, if was well capitalized enough what's
stopping me from spinning up 10 000 ripple validators that have no economic stake beyond
just the the level of the minimum performance requirements in a cloud computer necessary to
run it what's stopping me from just like brute force attacking that kind of a network and spinning
up more nodes than anyone else such that my uln
becomes the established one who's actually saying that my nodes are more valid than others yeah
absolutely and theoretically you could absolutely do that and you would essentially fork the network
in a sense but then also there's a trust component to the public network hub.
So in order for like public access to networks, that's kind of in a sense you could say, okay, well, all of these centralized exchanges and all of these wallet providers and everything else are looking at these certain public endpoints to pull data from.
And these are kind of like the established thing.
So in terms of the default UNL list, when you download the Ripple D software and start running it,
there will be a default UNL list that will download with it. And basically the XRPL foundation publishes that default UNL list,
not ripple, but the foundation essentially.
And then you can go in and modify that list to whatever validators you feel are
more trusted versus others, but you can entirely make up your own list.
You could,
you could spin up 10,000 validators and publish your own list and
essentially create your own Ripple network or X or PL network.
Does it mean it's going to be trusted by everybody else or trusted by centralized exchanges?
Not necessarily, no.
So how can your validation system ever be considered credible if anyone purely limited by
the costs of their own hardware or renting that hardware in the cloud which is becoming
exponentially cheaper like how do you establish credibility in such a system because in ethereum
we solve this problem by i mean how How can he establish credibility when I could buy, let's say,
I was a multi-billionaire and I bought enough
Ethereum that I could fork the network?
You say that, but
do you know how many billions it would take for you
to actually acquire enough Ethereum
to halt finality?
Do you actually know what that would
cost?
Does it matter?
It does matter because you need to have... It doesn't matter because if there's a flawed system either way...
Well, you're just saying it's a flawed system, but...
You could buy enough Ethereum to stay.
Okay, but do you know how much Ethereum that costs?
It doesn't mean...
I don't think...
Hold on, hold on.
Hold on. it doesn't mean i i don't you know i don't think is there is hold on hold on is there hold on
is there enough is there enough ethereum on the open market to do that that's that's more important
you're going you're going to an extreme to prove a point and he's just simply reciprocating the
circumstance no no no the question the original question is how can this proof of authority system establish credibility when it's purely based off peer connections? I'm saying Ethereum establishes credibility through staking. Like it, it, it acquires this. You have to have a stake in the network through holding the ether token in order to participate in this kind of validation scheme that essentially allows people to say what Ethereum is. It's not a system that
you can just brute force
as many peer-to-peer connections
as you can and effectively take it over,
which the cost of which is
dramatically lower than acquiring a third
of all the... Zodem, but the only
proof to that, though, is that
with the longevity that the XRPL's been there,
how many times has that occurred if that was
something that was prominent?
You can't just brute force the pure connections.
That's not how that works.
Like you could essentially create your own isolated network,
but then it's not gonna be trusted by anybody.
That's not really how it works.
You could create your own overlapping UNL list,
but then that'd be like essentially being like,
okay, well I could buy up, you know most of the ethereum supply and then stake it and then basically create
my a fork in the network but then are people going to say that's the true ethereum not necessarily
well okay so if that holds true then the the UNL actually does have legitimacy in that it is an actual counterparty that gets to decide what the canonical Ripple chain is.
Regardless of you saying that it's free to participate in validation, anyone can come and run a validator and be part of Ripple.
you're also saying that despite you wanting to do that,
You're also saying that despite you wanting to do that, you're not actually a part of Ripple.
you're not actually a part of Ripple.
You're just spinning up your own fork
intrinsically of running your own nodes.
That goes to say that the UNL gets to decide what Ripple is
based off an authority of people who have basically voted
that they become that authority.
It's an entirely social game.
At the end of the day, yes, it's entirely based on trust i think that
ethereum staking model you know yeah you're locking security into the token it's great but
i think that in itself creates centralization around the biggest staking providers right like
coinbase or binance um whereas those aren't even the biggest staking providers if you wanted to talk about the biggest
one you'd bring up lido who has 24.7 of all staked e yeah so so you you know and you get all of these
centralized buddies together on ee whereas on xrpl it comes the credibility comes from a diversity
of validators across you know businesses and organizations across the world
32 parties isn't diverse well but you also can do it without having to
require any stake like 32 eth or a coinbase account which is already a barrier to entry
okay say jp morgan wants to be like okay're going to use Ripple to do our interbank settlement. We want two seats at the UNL, right? And they get those two seats, right? And then say, JP Mel or another like Mellon comes in, they say that they want that. Say BNY comes in, say all these different banks come in, and they all take seats on the UNL. Maybe they don't take all of them, but they take 25, 30% of them.
Beyond that point, because of this proof authority system,
what they want will essentially go because they can halt the needs of the network
based off what they demand. Because without 80% of the vote,
the UNL can't make any changes to the chain. And if they're going to tell you,
oh, you lose all of this integration effort,
you lose all of our services, all of our support,
if you don't vote for what we want, the minority,
you actually think that the UNL is actually
just going to altruistically vote against its own interests?
Wait, hold on, hold on.
So what are the interests of the UNL?
Ethereum is securing by staking wealth, right? You've got to stake capital in order to be a provider, right?
But XRPL is securing by distributing trust because all of these individuals on the UNL have to vote. And whoever has the most votes becomes, kind of becomes like,
kind of becomes like the big guy, right?
In like layman's terms.
With a much less monetary.
Staking wealth versus trust.
I think one is like plutocratic
and one is meritocratic.
And that's just how I see it.
That's a game entirely defined
by who the participants are and if those participants became bankers that want one
thing for the chain that you know you don't necessarily want you and your community have
no effective way of actually steering the ship away from the wants of a party that may not be
aligned with you well there's a misconception when it comes to bankers only right because you have not saying ripple existed as a company prior to banks even having
interest was built on an enterprise software company right yeah and for that reason it's
never going to like play the same game ethereum is it's a strange debate to have. In terms of decentralization, Ethereum has this 32 Ethereum, you know, kind of roadblock.
It's not a hard limit either, though.
You can validate today with as little as 4 ETH.
As little as 4 ETH.
Yeah, I mean, if you got like...
It's still a lot more expensive.
To become a validator, you know.
You're securing a network that's securing literally hundreds of billions of dollars of value.
I'm not going to concede that you should be able to do that for $5.
Along with Coinbase, right?
Well, especially when you're actually adding to the network.
I did want to hear an answer to Zeno's question.
I know that kind of got lost in the fog.
But what exactly is
the interest of the UNL?
I don't know. I'm curious myself.
I'm learning from every take here, so
if anybody knows, I guess
what the, I mean, the interest of the UNL,
I guess is, I mean,
if I'm guessing correctly, it's like, okay, so it's a
group, right, and they
have to agree on certain things?
Like, I don't fucking know, man.
Somebody help me.
I would imagine that if we just read over the Jekyll Island papers,
we would know the exact interests of the UNL.
It sounds to me like the UNL gets to decide who the canonical ripple chain actually is.
So, in essence, this is a corruptible sort of system, right?
Yeah, exactly.
That could be susceptible.
No, it's a trustworthy solution.
No, it's a trustable solution.
Ethereum makes you prove your wealth.
It's trustworthy.
Come on, guys.
It makes you prove reliability by running a node that people want to keep on their list.
You can unvote them if they're untrustworthy at any point in time.
So, wait, is Ripple going, trust me, bro?
And then everybody just has to just do what Ripple says?
Yeah, exactly.
This is how governments works, actually.
And it's not working properly.
And Ripple is just mimicking the same.
And it's not decentralized.
So you would rather trust Ripple?
What would you guys do?
It's also building trust, right?
There's been a minute.
It's not about trust.
It's just supporting each other's intentions.
So anyone who doesn't have the same intentions and ideals for the chain is not accepted to the group.
So it's not decentralized.
So if I'm different than you, to the people who are running nodes, I'm not going to be accepted.
They're not going to accept me.
In your definition, what's sufficient decentralization?
That's what I heard.
Let's take a hostile perspective.
Say you want to implement the ability to reverse Ripple transactions.
How does that get implemented in the network?
Oh, I think right now they're able to do that.
They're able to claw back RLUSD, which is the issue.
No, no, no.
Okay, well, RLUSD is a contract on Ripple.
I'm saying XRP.
Yeah, no, you can't claw back XRP.
That's what I'm saying. You can't claw back xrp process hey guys i'm saying just sort of jump in here
but if you wanted to implement the change such that ripple was a reversible transaction
what is the process of implementing that in ripple i can explain what that would look like
right first of all you've got a code amendment to the network right hey guys first of all to do that
you'd have to code an amendment to the network you would have to then get all of the nodes to run that software with that amendment
and then you'd have to put that amendment up for vote and get everybody to approve that there's a
decentralized governance process you need to get everybody to approve it sounds like a good checks
who is everybody is that that the UNL?
Is that 50% of node operators?
The people on your UNL.
You need to have over
80% approval on
the validators
that are on your UNL.
Remember, each node is responsible for the
nodes on their UNL.
If my Ripple validator botnet
in Azure cloud
fucking all agrees
to reverse transactions,
that's going to create
some kind of a sub fork,
I'm guessing,
that honors that.
And everyone else
is just going to disregard that
until they decide
to join that side.
Correct.
Of your network.
There's nothing to stop you
from forking your own network.
You can go and fork your own network,
just like you can fork
your own Ethereum network.
Yeah, you go fork that network.
Nothing can stop that.
You go fork it. Don't you see any kind of reliability problems
In an authoritative system
Where it creates fork
It's not an authoritative system
So no
The guy earlier said it's proof of authority
It's proof of association
Yeah association like friends
That's how authority
That's how authority
Authority is created through association
correct this is a system
that creates perpetual forks
how is that not the case
how is that not actually the case
how is it the case
okay so in the example of me
running my own little validator botnet
I fucking decide that I want to reverse
Ripple transactions
Cool, you can do that, but I don't care
Because I'm not listening to your botnet
I know, but say JPMorgan does
And they're like, oh, we really like that idea
Because JPMorgan reverses transactions
Today and they would really like a blockchain system
That allows that to do that tomorrow
So they can go do that, but that's not the XRP ledger.
Okay, so when does it become the XRP ledger?
When, say, 60% of people's UNLs are agreeing with that?
Which is Bitcoin, BTC or BCH? Which is Bitcoin?
Bitcoin, it's BTC.
Why?
It's because the majority of the network is running the Bitcoin core client.
No. It's because the majority of the network Is running the Bitcoin core client No It's because you've decided
It's because we as a society have decided that Bitcoin
Is BTC not BCH
We as a society have decided to run a majority
Of Bitcoin core clients
That's what I said
No you didn't
It's not to do with the majority
It's to do with what the majority of people think is Bitcoin
Who's the dude up here TKO
I can't even see his name It's to do with what the majority of people think is Bitcoin. Who's the dude up here at TKO, man?
I can't even see his name.
It's because everyone likes what was run on the BTC network over the BTH network.
It's survival of the fittest.
It's everyone decided.
Exactly.
Same with the XRP ledger.
It's purely dominance-based.
Same with the XRP ledger.
Okay, so you just do it with authority rather than, or rather association rather than stake weight or electricity.
Yeah, because we're bosses.
It's consensus, right?
It's social consensus.
That is what all blockchains boil down to, social consensus, right?
Proof of work, proof of stake are just, they're actually irrelevant when you deal with the fact that the whole of block bitcoin ethereum all of them boil down to social consensus i would disagree with proof of
stake and proof of work is just a hindrance it doesn't actually help work with proof of work
your point stands with proof of stake ethereum's model of proof of stake it doesn't because say
i'm a malicious operator who wants to see reversible transactions on Ethereum.
If I just tried to force implement that feature into Ethereum,
Ethereum not only will not fork to follow my lead,
it will actively slash me out of the validator set for honoring a set of rules.
Same with XRP Ledger.
The same with the XRP Ledger.
Slashing what?
Slashing what?
Your association?
They won't slash anything.
There's no slashing in there. There's no slashing in it.
We can delete attackers out of the Ethereum network completely.
We can erase their stake.
We can erase their capital.
You can just ignore them in the XRP ledger.
You don't have to even bother with staking.
You just ignore them.
Wouldn't that be considered authoritarian, though?
No, because it's social consensus.
Well, no, I was going after what...
Yeah, but if it's an authoritative social consensus, right?
If it's an authoritative social consensus, how is it social?
You just contradicted yourself.
So when Lido begins to own 50%
of the validator nodes on Ethereum,
then it's going to be...
Lido doesn't own 50%, it owns 24%.
We need some different ethudes in here.
Can we get some different ethudes in here?
So, I mean, the difference being is that with ethereum you can effectively buy control of
the network with the xrp ledger you can't yes that's why the xrp ledger is more decentralized
billion dollars assuming a liquid network yes you could know more than 154 zadomo because 154 is
the current stake you need 66 right to overthrow it so you would you do need yeah you need you need 66%, right? To overthrow it. So you would need, yeah, you need, you need 33% to halt
finality, which I mean, is only a temporary thing. And you have 66% to actually define
the node client set. Right. But you can't buy that out from other people. So you need to add
ETH to the existing $154 billion that's in there, which means that you would actually need more than
$154 billion. Yeah. No, I was saying, assuming a perfectly liquid market, which means that you would actually need more than $154 billion.
I was saying, assuming a perfectly liquid market,
obviously, if you started selling a
fucking $60 billion TWOP, you're not going to get
fucking $66 billion.
It's not
impossible, but...
It's not possible.
I mean, it's not impossible either, right?
Because there is enough capital.
It's not impossible, but it's the same thing as saying,
well, if I buy an options contract on a stock,
I have infinite upside, technically.
Right, right.
Or, I mean, just like almost any argument with...
You know what? I'm going to shut up. You guys go ahead.
GR, fucking love you.
I'm sorry, man. What were you saying?
Just bringing the point back about Clawback that was mentioned earlier,
just to reiterate something here, just to be clear,
Clawback does not apply to XRP.
It only applies to issued assets in the same way that Clawback doesn't apply to ETH,
but it can apply to ERC-20 tokens if they implement it.
It's the same thing.
Yes, strictly if they implement it.
It is funny to me that RLUSD is...
Yeah.
Same with tokens on the XRP ledger,
if they implement it.
Yeah.
Exactly.
No, the point was just,
I meant to characterize
what it would take to actually implement
protocol-level changes in Ripple,
because that is a well-understood
and defined process in Ethereum.
You have to have 66% of all stakeholders.
It's well-understood and defined in the XRP ledger
as well. I mean, way before Ethereum even existed.
To the extent that the core ULN
is decided by
political games.
Those political
games can be dominated by parties that
don't reflect your interests, and if they do
establish a 20% foothold...
If they don't reflect your interest,
you ignore them. That's the point. Your entire argument is just fork it, bro. No,'t reflect your interest you ignore them that's the point
your entire argument is just fork it bro
no my entire argument is just ignore them
right okay
if every bank in the country decided
we want to become ripple validators
and they all run their own UNLs
pointed towards each other and it
became the dominant ULN that
was just like okay if you're spending ripple
it's got to be on the network that recognizes us banker bros.
You're literally describing a system.
No, it's not the same as Ethereum.
It is.
All those networks, they decide to fork Ethereum,
which they literally did with JPM, with his network,
and they say, this is now the network to use.
That's exactly the same thing.
They're producing new networks.
We're talking about a canonical network
That's what you've just described
You've described you create a new network on the XRP ledger
So it's not the XRP ledger
It's a separate network, you've just forked it
Same as Ethereum
There's nothing to stop you forking the network
You can fork Ethereum, you can fork the XRP ledger
You can create a whole new network, you can say all the banks are going to use it
That's fine, they can go and do that
You can't stop them, it's a decentralized network How You can say all the banks are going to use it. That's fine. They can go and do that. You can't stop them.
It's a decentralized network.
How does that not become the canonical chain?
Because it only becomes a canonical chain
if you decide it's the canonical chain socially.
If you decide that JPM chain is the new Ethereum,
then it is.
In the same way that you decided ETC is Ethereum versus ETH,
then that's what would happen.
These are disparate systems.
If you wanted to actually fork
the Ethereum network, you could
just split the blockchain and create
an entirely new network.
You're describing exactly the same scenario on both
networks.
I'm not describing
a native code fork. I'm describing
I want a change in
Ethereum, and I want that
to be Ethereum. You need to get 66% of the stake weight to say that that's Ethereum.
Right. And the same with the XRP ledger, you would have to get enough people to agree that that is it.
As I said, it's social consensus, right? That's what it comes down to.
And I'm saying when you rely purely on social consensus, it becomes a game of integrations. It becomes, okay, well, you want this thing from us. We're going to withhold that thing from you until you give us dominant control of the network to implement it.
Like I said, it comes down to social consensus on the network, and the same with Ethereum and the, okay, this is now Ethereum 2, everybody's going to use it, this is the better Ethereum, then people would use that.
And you would decide that that is Ethereum.
In the same way with the XRP ledger, if you forked the network and said, this is now XRPL2, everybody's going to use that.
It's exactly the same thing.
It's social consensus.
It's if you get people to go on and start calling that network the new network.
I think you're mischaracterizing creating new networks with forking.
But to answer your question, right?
Well, that's what forking is.
Forking creates a new network.
It does.
And a super majority is 80% of validators on the UNL.
So as long as 80% of the UNL agrees, then that will be what is, we'll move forward.
If the UNL agrees, then that will be what is, we'll move forward.
Way more.
That's extraordinarily fragile that 20% can halt any progress by your central committee that gets decided.
But it's so fragile, but when's last time it happened, it's not a central committee.
Progress, so yike.
The XRP ledger is decentralized. There's not a central committee. That's the whole point of it.
Yet you can point towards a single list of 32 people that
are on that list. That has been decided by social consensus, correct. When you say social consensus
for the XRPL, just because I understand what you're saying, but what does that mean? It means
that all of the nodes on the network have decided that that is the UNL that they're going to use.
Now that UNL has changed over time, and the default originally was the Ripple published UNL. And then at some
point, people decided that actually the XRP Ledger Foundation would be a better custodial for that.
So switched over to using that. I used to publish a UNL at one point. There was a company called
Coil that used to publish a UNL at one point, right? There's been several UNLs. Originally, there wasn't even a published UNL, right?
There was no publishing of UNLs.
That's a relatively recent thing in the history of the XRP ledger.
What did you guys do before that?
It was basically, it was decided.
It was published on a forum as these are the validators we're going to use, right?
It's actually kind of cool.
It reminds me of Pirate Bay.
You know how you choose your seeders?
Right.
Yeah.
Is it kind of like that?
So you get to choose your suppliers for the network?
Somewhat.
Somewhat.
I mean, the thing being is that for the network to make forward progress,
that for the network to make forward progress you need to have a a consistent view of the
validators on the network i.e people need to agree what we who we're going to which validators we're
going to have on the unl at least at least a majority uh you know a fairly large overlap
right you can have one or two different you've got to have a fairly large overlap, right? You can have one or two different. You've got to have a fairly large overlap. But that is not in any way set by any central authority. Like Ripple don't decree,
these are the validators everybody has to use. Okay. Can I ask a question? Do you see any problem
in the governance process of selecting these people, the governance process? I'm asking the
governance. Sorry, Ask the question again.
What is the problem with it?
Do you see any problems in this governance process?
Not really.
Because, I mean, okay, let's just rewind a little second here.
Because maybe people are not aware of what validators actually do.
Because the name is slightly confusing.
I will admit this.
Validators do not validate transactions on the network, right? Every single
node validates transactions on the network. If I spin up a node, it validates the transactions
on the network, right? Every single node validates the transactions and applies the transaction,
the candidate transaction set to its local state and moves its state from one block to the next block, right?
Independently.
What the validators do, a better name for the validators that is probably more familiar
to the Ethereum crowd, especially if you've used something like Arbitrum and the layer
twos, is Sequencer, right?
What the validators do is they vote on the sequence of transactions and what order they
are put in. Not whether they're valid vote on the sequence of transactions and what order they are put in.
Not whether they're valid, but the sequence. Because all the validators do is effectively
break a tie in the scenario in which there are multiple different candidate transaction sets,
right? So for each block, a bunch of transactions are submitted from all the nodes
around the network. And the end goal, as you know, is to stop double spend. That's what the big
revolution of Bitcoin was. That's the big revolution of what blockchains is, is to prevent
the double spend problem without having to have a central authority. Now, the big revelation with
an innovation with the XRP ledger was the realization that if you can agree the order in
which the transactions are applied and everybody has the same ordering, then the double spend
problem goes away, right? Because the first person spends the funds, the second person can't
like re-spend those same funds, right? If I have $100 in my wallet or 100 XRP, I spend 100 XRP once,
I can't spend 100 XRP twice, right? The double spend
problem only comes about if you can do that multiple times in different orders, right? So
the validators, all they do is ensure they vote on the ordering of the transactions. And so everybody
agrees on that, right? And again, there's nothing at stake here in terms of
the validators are not rewarded. So that means there's actually no incentive for them to cheat.
There's nothing they gain out of cheating, right? All that happens is if one validator
decides it's always going to vote like the opposite way to everybody else, well, you can
see that. You can see that validators being a pain in the ass and being malicious. And so you just remove it from your UNL. You just ignore it, right?
Because it's adding no value to the network, right? So there's much less at stake in what
the validators do, which means actually there's much less that can go wrong if they were to be
malicious. And if they are malicious, you can just ignore the malicious ones.
How do you decide that a validator is malicious?
Because all the validators are doing
is voting on the order of the transactions.
Right, here's an analogy.
You are out with a group of friends.
You all want to go and have dinner together, right?
You don't care where you go.
All you want is to be in
the same place so you all vote and like the majority of you vote that you're going to go to
McDonald's there's one person that votes that they want to go to Pizza Hut right you just go to
McDonald's right if you know that person that whenever you vote that person just votes the
opposite way then you can just ignore them right because they're not adding any value there because remember it doesn't matter which you go to you just all want to go to the same one
so if there's one that's just like voting the opposite way you can see they're being malicious
and you can just ignore them so because again there's no there's no right ordering in the
transactions it just has to be consistent amongst everybody if that makes sense yeah but i think it's also creates
um like and homogeneous but you're describing it as a positive thing but in terms of governance
and decentralization i think it's creates um you're just eliminating different voices
from the chain and it's not just ignoring different voices from the chain
and it's not a good way to...
I'm just ignoring malicious voices.
Yeah, you eliminate malicious voices.
You are just tagging them as malicious
if they have different opinions about things
and you're just eliminating it.
So it's not decentralized.
It's not one individual validator eliminating them.
It's 80% of consensus coming together.
Yeah, it leads to populism, actually, in social sciences.
Yeah, but that's not a problem,
because the only thing they're doing is voting on the order of transaction.
Yeah, populism is the problem, actually.
So it doesn't matter.
Populism is the problem with democracy.
Yeah, but the difference being is democracy,
you're looking at a much higher order system there.
With democracy, if we choose to vote on a particular political party or whatever or whatever it might be or outcome of something there's a difference
between decision a or decision b with the xrp ledger there isn't in the ordering of transactions
all you want is everybody to agree on the ordering it doesn't matter what the order is you just need
to agree on it who's okay which account is? I just can't see. Can the validators
decide the future of the chain
like on
Ethereum? Because
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.
I don't know who's talking though.
Sorry, it's Matt.
No, Perkat.
Alright,
sorry Perkat, go ahead.
Yeah, I just asked if validators can decide the future of the chain,
like the complex problems or the things that is related to the future of the XRP ledger.
If I understand what you're asking, yes.
Like normal governance on
yeah yeah so there's there's a process called the amendment process and the amendment process
is a decentralized governance process by which validators can vote on new protocol amendments
right so a bit like eips effectively right but there's an on-chain voting mechanism
by which validators can vote for um that And you need to have an amendment needs to
have an 80% or effectively 81% approval for two weeks in order to be effectively ratified,
right? And if it drops below that, the two-week counter starts again. But yeah, so validators
have to vote on the amendments that are being proposed.
And if you go to somewhere like xrpscan.com, you can see there there's a link at the top that says amendments.
And you can see the votes that are going on right now for the different amendments.
And, you know, over time, there's been amendments that have been posted that have been approved.
There's some that have been rejected over time. There's some that even people like Ripple have posted that have been you know posted that have been approved there's some that have been rejected over time there's some that even people like ripple have posted that
have been rejected um over time so because again ripple have one out of currently like 35 i think
it is validators on the unl that most people are using uh so they have one 35th of the vote
so it's really up to the community to vote on the direction.
So all of these things like clawback of issued assets, even things like NFTs, when the native NFT functionality was was first published, it's up to the back to GR's opener point, right, about the multiplier opportunity and just like how beginning stages XRP is compared to other more mature chains. There's like so much opportunity. And I think that's kind of where your like lead of questions are coming from per cat, which is like really nice for me to think about.
me to think about yeah i also wonder like are there any different voting mechanisms
that people are working on because on ethereum for example they're quadratic voting like just to
go against the populism and like the problems that is happening because of the democracy app
it's interesting yeah i mean some people have some people have floated alternative mechanisms and the problems that is happening because of the democracy.
It's interesting.
Some people have floated alternative mechanisms that could be used.
I think the main thing at the moment is there's not been an issue.
The current system works, and there's not been an issue with it. if you want to create a more diverse and if decentralization is a problem,
you just search for different ways
to create a voting system
and create different systems
to include other people who are different than you.
So that is what Ethereum tries to achieve.
I think you can think that because Ethereum, you have to fork up a lot of money for your opinion to be heard.
Yeah, and I think it's just like a psychological thing.
You need to be intentional to be a validator.
No, you have to have a lot of money when it comes down to it.
Yeah, money is energy.
Money is just showing that you're intentional about something.
You have to stake something to be part of it.
So if you don't have enough money, your opinion doesn't matter?
On Ethereum, yes.
Because you have to stake 32 Ethereum.
And you have to be with the supermajority.
So decisions may be better.
Wait, wait, wait.
Zono did explain that there are
cheaper options to validate now and it's becoming
cheaper and cheaper. You're going to be able to do it with
the lowest one Ethereum.
It's not just that. It's also that you can get
together with other people.
So if you have a group of
guys that
want to start a validator node,
you can pool together 32
Ethereum in a trustless fashion,
meaning that no one who you're staking with for that node,
even though they're your best friend, whatever,
it doesn't matter, they can't steal your Ethereum.
There are trustless ways to implement
this kind of technology.
And so you can band together with other people
and create a 32 ETH validator node.
So it's disingenuous to say that no one can,
anyone, any individual who doesn't have less than 32 ETH can't
validate the network because there are easy, there are ready
made ways for people to band together and do that. We're definitely not arguing that.
I was just reiterating what Ozotomo said.
It's becoming scalable to the point where you know you can do right now you can do it for as low as four
theory yeah so i find that interesting i find that interesting you know and like as a user of the xrpl
network you know personally like i i don't see myself needing to run a validator node for ripple
right like i don't see myself ever, like, you know, like,
I don't have a need for that,
like, because there's no incentive, right?
Yeah.
Whereas on Ethereum,
I'm interested in getting into that for sure.
And it's also like, yeah,
there is no incentive to be a validator in XRP.
So it makes sense that
you don't need so much money to be a validator.
But on Ethereum,
you have so much upsides to be yes yeah
that's that's correct that's correct and the converse to that is that because you don't have
an incentive like direct financial incentive from the network it's like more like a social game
right the people that are validators as as um as i believe adam was saying earlier it's like the
people that are validators are the people that actually have skin in the game of the network, right?
They want the network to run because they have a wallet piece of software that they sell, or they run an NFT marketplace, or they run a cross-border payment system or whatever it is, right?
Sure.
They want the network to work, right?
same way that you know i mean people remember think about it that on say the bitcoin network
there are tens of thousands of bitcoin full nodes they're not rewarded either right there's no
incentive to run a bitcoin full node there's incentive to run a miner but not a bitcoin full
node yet there's tens of thousands of them and the reason people run them is because they want to
ensure that the network is running correctly but also remember remember, it's the only way, if you run a node,
it's the only way for you to access the network without trusting a third party.
So that's why you'd run a node, right?
If you want to access the network without trusting somebody else,
then you'd run your own node.
And it reminds me of Solana, where Solana has this issue right now
where there's not enough interest in, or there's not enough, what do you call it?
There's not enough interest or incentive
to run an archival node.
They have these things called archival nodes,
which of course archive the transactions
on the blockchain.
And as a blockchain, as what a blockchain is,
this sort of like validated data center of sorts
or database,
it's extremely important that we have these archival nodes.
And no one wants to do it because there's no incentive.
And there's not enough people on Solana right now
to incentivize not altruistic sort of action,
but what do you call that?
Action that's not rewarded financially,
but is for the sake of the network.
There's not enough of that on Solana.
So they don't have enough archival nodes right now.
And that's,
that's,
that's actually,
to be honest,
that's been similar with the XRP ledger because running an archival node on
the XRP ledger is a big thing because the XRP ledger has been running a
long time and as a fast block time,
right?
So I can't remember what the current size of an archival node is,
but maybe 20 terabytes, something in that order of magnitude i believe so um i think it's closer to
40 terabytes now 40 terabytes now okay so it's it's big right and not everybody's going to want
to do that because that's quite a big expense but then on the other hand you don't need that many
archival nodes you just need enough right and there's been again there's been similarly
to the way you're talking about staking decentralized you know um like uh rather
aggregated like parties coming together to stake there've been aggregated parties coming together
to run um archival nodes on the xfp ledger right there's been a system where people can contribute
you know uh small amounts of funds that get put together to run an archival node,
for example. But just to be clear, you wouldn't be able to band together with some friends
and get onto the UNL unless the... Well, okay, so how does this work? So there's the 37 organization validator UNL.
How do I get on there?
If I want to get on there, if I really love the XRPL,
I don't have a lot of money, but I am technically proficient
and maybe I have some other guys that can help.
How do we get onto the UNL?
So typically that's done via reputation.
So that'd be like you run a node your node stays in sync right over a long
period of time because there's metrics that can observe like the health of your node your node
stays in sync runs for a long time is in a uh you know good geographic region um you know not in the
same region that you know another node is in that's that you know it's superfluous um uh perhaps you have uh you know uh community
you know standing in that you have you know shown a demonstration to you know commitment to the
community um and that's kind of what's happened over time right that people have done that and
then people have had their nodes added um to the one of the published UNLs.
Now, again, to just be clear about this in terms of terminology,
when people say the UNL,
every single node on the network has a UNL,
has a unique node list.
All that list is is a list of validators
that they are listening to for consensus.
Now, when people talk about the Ripple UNL
or the XRP Ledger Foundation UNL,
they're just talking about a known list
that has been published.
But again, anybody could publish that list
and anybody could decide,
could say that, okay,
where are you going to drop this node
or add this node?
And that's what's happened over time, right?
So again, Ripple used to be like the main publisher.
The XRP Ledger Foundation took over and they actually said,
okay, we're going to add this community member
or we're going to remove this member
that's not been that responsive over time.
And the XRP Ledger Foundation over time became the de facto one
that most people listen to rather than Ripple's one.
Right? Now, does everyone on the UNL list that the XRP Foundation publishes
also publish their own UNL?
And is the crossover between those high?
Do they publish their own UNL?
Well, their node...
You have some universities on there, I see.
Yeah, so there's a bunch of universities on there, for example.
So I don't think they publish a UNL, but they will have, I mean, a lot of
them will have the UNL, the UNL that they are using statically configured in their node
rather than listening to a published one.
Right.
Which is public.
Yes.
Yeah.
But they will have, it'll be the same, you know, validators on there so that they stay
in consensus.
Yeah.
Gotcha.
And can that scale?
So it's 37 right now.
What if we wanted to make the UNL, or let's say not we, but what if the XRP Foundation
wanted to make the UNL a 5,000 validator list?
Does that scale or is that like a DAG file on Ethereum where it's like you can't push
it too far?
Yeah, it doesn't scale quite as well.
It doesn't scale like that because each of those validators is publishing their votes and they effectively all have to be observed within a block.
Ah, yeah.
Now, again, there's a question of what would the benefit of that be anyway?
Because remember, all the validators are doing is coming to consensus
on the order of transactions, right? It's so interesting. So on Ethereum, we think about
things completely differently than you guys do. Yeah. Like you said that a validator in the same
location would be superfluous. And on Ethereum, we would say that's data redundancy. That's
ensuring that if one validator goes down in New York, there's another one. Right. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You could, yeah, yeah. You could say
that as well. And validators may actually even be in a cluster. It might be multiple machines
under the same address potentially, right, as within a cluster. So, but like I said, if you
think about, so something like Arbitrum, for example, but but by the way for people that don't know me um my name
is matt i've been you know a long time member of the xrp community um i used to work at ripple i
also used to work at the arbitrum foundation right so i have a good viewpoint of both ethereum and
the xrp ledger which is why i'm you know kind of here yapping away now right um but if you think
about one of the big problems that something like
arbitrum has is arbitrum has a centralized sequencer um or had a centralized sequencer
it may have changed now but i think it's still a centralized sequencer and they've been looking
to decentralize that now the big problem with moving to a decentralized sequencer is literally
the physics of the speed of light right because if it's going to take you whatever it is i don't know what it currently is like 300 milliseconds to get to get a block from new york to sydney right um you can't
have a block time that is going to be shorter than that so if you have a decentralized sequencer in
which at least if they both have to be in agreement for a single block now they might not you might
choose to decentralize it in a different way,
have it round-robin, take turns, whatever it might be.
But something like Arbitrum, for example,
as a Layer 2 has a centralized sequencer.
A decentralized sequencer system on Arbitrum
might actually look like the XRP ledger
because one way in which you could actually think
of the XRP ledger is the XRP ledger
is just a decentralized sequencing system. I thinkrum orbit is solving that now arbitrum orbit is separate
networks arbitrum orbit allows you to create sub networks off of yeah i think your own like layer
three or whatever off of the network like sanco chain exactly exactly they're separate networks
um off of yeah i think it makes it decentralized.
It doesn't
make Arbitrum anymore decentralized. They're separate
networks, each with their own sequencer.
Yeah, so Layer 2s
are not always very centralized at all.
I'm doing stuff over on
MegaEth, and MegaEth uses
a central sequencer as well.
With plans to
decentralize it.
Yeah.
But those are plans.
Yeah.
And they're working towards it.
They take a very pragmatic view.
So like Arbitrum is a very pragmatic view of we have a centralized sequencer and we
don't really care because eventually it gets rolled up to Ethereum and we rely on Ethereum
security.
So, you know, it's fine.
It's fine for now.
Right.
And eventually it'll become more decentralized.
But like I said, you could think if you were in the arbitrum ecosystem you could think of the xrp ledger as just a set
of decentralized sequencers that's all it is right because it doesn't have a smart contract platform
on on there it has some built-in functionality that you could kind of consider um like pre-compiles effectively or like built-in functionality.
So the DEX, tokenization, right?
So you don't need a smart contract to do like ERC-20 style tokens.
It's got built-in functionality for that.
It actually baked into the network, right?
You don't need a separate DEX because it's got a DEX built into the network.
But you could think of it, like I said,
as a decentralized sequencer.
And when people were saying,
okay, how do we decentralize something like Arbitrum?
There was a weird part of me that was saying,
well, just deploy the XRP ledger
as the sequencer layer for Arbitrum, right?
I mean, it's kind of perverse, but it could work, right?
So that's another way to think about the XRP ledger if you're looking at it from the Ethereum lens.
That is, that's really interesting. Is it really that perverse though? Because aren't layer twos
kind of perverse in their own right anyway, because they have centralized sequences?
Well, yeah, exactly. And you could think of, like I said you could think of the xrp ledger as a decentralized layer too that you could roll up to ethereum for example right i mean
yeah um you could do it that way but i mean it has obviously it has its own security anyway so
you don't need that but um you could do that and for example i mean ripple created an evm side
chain that connects to the xrp ledger So that's kind of going the other way around.
But there's an EVM network that they created that's connected to the XRP ledger, I think via Axler.
But at one point, there was an actual bridge protocol, like a sidechain protocol.
You know, it was not too dissimilar to what the Layer 2 protocol for things like Ethereum,
the way they use a mailbox contract on the main network to send messages backwards and forwards.
It was something kind of similar to that.
Okay.
Yeah, I think Matt just knows too much.
You just know too much, cheers man i mean one of the
things again one of the things like a sanity check on this and you know obviously this is not
a particularly good way of thinking about like security but it is a good sanity check in that
it hasn't been hacked yet right funds haven't been uh you know reversed the network hasn't been well the network has been
forked but none of the forks have ever survived there's been about three forks of the xrp ledger
um but they've never like gone anywhere they've they've been like the bsv of like you know the
xrp world um and so it's like like i said it's not the most robust way of of of thinking about and i would never say
like you know a network is secured just because you know trust me bro but a lot of the arguments
that people come up with against the xrp ledger like oh it's so simple you could just do this i'm
like well if it is so simple you could just do this nobody's done that yet now remember the xrp ledger had the highest
like value locked of any blockchain at one point in time right it had a higher value lock than
bitcoin at one point in time right it was before ethereum remember the xrp ledger was like three
years before ethereum even existed uh vitalik used to sleep on the CTO of Ripple's couch, right? And they used to discuss in the night these weird ideas about smart contracts.
And Vitalik couldn't get a visa to work with Ripple because the US government wouldn't
give a Russian the visa.
And so he went off traveling and eventually created Ethereum, right?
But there's an alternate universe in which he did get the visa.
Vitalik did work at Ripple.
They decided to go with on-chain smart
contracts for the xrp ledger and the world would look a lot different now in the end vitalik wanted
on-chain smart contracts went off and created ethereum ripple decided that actually off-chain
smart contracts would be better because they envisaged a multi-chain world and so they created
a protocol called interledger that allowed you to
buy like pass transactions between multiple different blockchains and created a decent a
smart contract platform called codeus in the end it never really took off um but it was a off-chain
um smart contract platform yeah so so matt um so when it comes to to interop and interchain or Omnichain,
you know that Ethereum recently stated
that their main prerogative is going to be
interoperability UX, user experience.
Where are you with all that?
Because I believe that the next layer of abstraction
in crypto adoption is going to be interchain.
With the Solana crowd, I've been trying to pill them on this stuff.
They're a very difficult crowd.
But they're like, no, there's too many layer twos.
It's too confusing.
The transaction fees are too high.
It's too slow.
I do believe that perhaps by end of this
year if not next year we will see a large implementation of interoperability seamless
interoperability at the ux layer uh the ui and the ux layer for users on evm in general right just
you know so what do you think and where's ripple with that because i know that they're building
nightly is it or whatever or whatever, the Ethereum integration?
So your key point there was on EVM networks.
And that's what enables that ease of integration is that you have a whole bunch of disparate networks that all have the EVM.
So they can all run Solidity smart contracts or, you know, Stylus smart contracts or whatever in the case of, you know, as well with Arbitrum. And that allows you much easier interoperability, right? Because
you can deploy one smart contract to a whole bunch of different networks and that makes it much
easier. Because the XRP ledger doesn't have the EVM, at least not on the main XRP ledger itself,
that makes that a bit trickier. So I think that's harder to do that interoperability
which is ironic considering the very first interchain protocol interledger came out of
ripple right um and they demonstrated like a decade ago a transaction going from like bitcoin
to xrp to ethereum to to you know something else. They made up like a test network as well.
And it went across like seven different networks.
But for whatever reason, that just didn't take off.
I'm not entirely sure why.
And the EVM basically became the de facto standard, right?
And for all of the flaws of the EVM, everybody adopted it. And so it's got
a lot more weight just by virtue of the fact that everybody uses it.
Gotcha. Yeah. And I think most of it's already here. Like I've been looking into to interop
protocols and interchange protocols. And as far as I can tell, so the main issue, of course, was,
oh, great, we have interoperability messaging.
Like, fantastic.
What does that actually do?
And now we have multiple
hardened liquidity interoperability layers,
like layer zero or hyperlane,
or like there's a union.
There's tons of these.
And it's like okay well now
you can actually do it now you can now you can buy the token on solana and ethereum and base
and mega eth well mega it's not live yet but what you know and it's like okay well well can we create
like a um a front-end ui that takes your eth on on layer one and mints
a Solana NFT
on SVM
and does that seamlessly.
And now it's just in your wallet and the
user doesn't know left from right.
Because they don't...
For adoption, they don't care.
And this is something I've had to
blackpill myself on.
Not a lot of people actually give a shit about this stuff.
They just want the fucking transaction.
And companies like Axler have done a lot on that regards.
Axler have a, I think it's Axler, I think, have a, is it them that have a token, like a cross-chain token standard?
Or maybe it's one of the other, maybe's layer zero i can't remember one of one of the two have like a cross-chain token standard and they have a um like a remote gas you know
system as well so it's like you can call a transaction and it will then do something else
a remote chain and it'll handle like the gas you know costs because that's one of the biggest issues
right it's like i try to do something with some other chain i've got to have eth on that other
chain to pay the gas fee and it just becomes a pain in the ass i've got to actually move the
eth around just to you know put a little bit on this chain a little bit on that channel and you
know you end up with dust everywhere right so you know it's you're right the ux needs to improve
the end user doesn't really care um they just want the damn thing to work
um and that's one of the main reasons why you know the xrp ledger i think has been so successful
you know in this time is that it just works right i say to people like the xrp ledger is boring
and i say that in a good way because it's like i want to make a payment to you i don't want to have
to care about what the gas fee is i don't't want to care about some cross-chain thing or whatever, da-da-da-da-da.
I don't care about that.
I just want to send you a payment, right?
And so the XRP Ledger has just been trucking along for over a decade now just doing this.
And the reason why some people look at it and go, well, there's not that much developer activity is because in some ways there's a lot of, you know,
they haven't had to fix things that have had to be fixed on Ethereum, right? If you walk around,
you go to ETH Denver and you stand in the main hall there and you look at all the vendors,
and I would say 80, maybe 90% of the vendors in that hall are creating and selling something to fix a problem with Ethereum,
right? Whether it's scalability, whether it's security, whether it's, you know, some sort of
tokenization thing, you know, whatever it is, the majority of them are selling something to fix a
problem with Ethereum. Now, if those problems didn't exist, all of those companies wouldn't
exist, right? They wouldn't be doing that thing because there isn't the problem there. So in a weird sort of ironic way, the reason I
think there's so much economic activity on top of Ethereum with all these companies is because
Ethereum wasn't that great to start with, right? And so they've all had to build and patch things
up to make it actually usable.
And I would argue that the XRP ledger got a lot more right specifically for the payments use case
and the cross-currency use case
so that people didn't need to build that stuff.
You don't need to build a DEX on that.
XRPL is a great payments layer.
It's not built, in my experience with it,
and a little tiny bit of coding experience with it.
It's not built for much else.
Ethereum is built, it can be a payment layer.
It's not quite as seamless as the experience with XRP is.
But what I like about Ethereum is that it's so fucking modular.
Exactly, exactly. In theory, we can I like about Ethereum is that it's so fucking modular. Exactly. Exactly.
In theory, we can build everything into Ethereum.
We can, we can compose anything in, in, in, in solidity.
Like I love that about Ethereum.
Oh yeah.
But yeah, XRP is a more seamless payment experience.
Yeah.
And, and I don't, I mean, I don't personally see them as competing.
Right.
And that was the interesting thing when I saw this like topic, topic come up.
I'm like, Hey guys, why are we fighting on this? They, they, they do different things, right? Ethereum, the whole thing when i saw this like topic right topic come up i'm like hey guys why are we fighting on this they they do different things right ethereum the
whole thing is the world's computer right um whereas xrp is is a payments network right now
things change in that payments need to become more programmatic so you need more programmability
in a payments network than what you originally needed and And so people are working on, you know, extended programmability functions for the XRP ledger.
And I missed the start of this conversation,
but I think maybe Adam was talking about Zahao,
which is a separate network that was created
in which they enabled a particular programmability thing
called hooks on the network.
And that gives you a certain amount of programmability there's other
solutions that people are looking at for the for the xrp ledger as well um so you know everyone's
using hooks now right so programmability is is is is a thing like payments are no longer as simple
as they were people want to do more with them they're realizing you can do more and that's where
ethereum really shines like you say you can build anything on ethereum right whether you should build anything on ethereum and everything on
ethereum is obviously a different question but you certainly can right and so there's a lot more
experimentation there i mean i loved it when i was working with the arbitrum foundation and working
with arbitrum i love you know you could build whatever random ass shit i mean i built a um
an actual machine learning reinforcement ai uh running on Arbitrum stylus
written in Rust on the Arbitrum network, right, running under the EVM.
So, you know, it would actually solve a maze.
It was a game, and it would, like, learn how to solve a maze running a smart contract.
Why? Because I could, right?
There's no use for it other than to demonstrate, hey, look how fast and cheap stylus is for transactions versus solidity, right?
But, you know, you can do that.
Hey, I'm sorry to interrupt this conversation, guys. I just want to say real quick,
there's a lot of people requesting to speak. Unfortunately, it's not letting us bring anybody up so we're gonna deny all of your
requests please leave the space and then request again so we can try and bring you up sometimes
for whatever reason twitter just doesn't work but there is there is a new space and come back
yeah it's all bugged out down there there is a new update i think maybe it's on my end i'm
gonna check i don't i updated today though so it's very strange though but this this has turned out
to be quite an amazing space i have learned a lot i have at the moment i'm trying to process
the data and uh come up with some questions here uh if anybody has questions gr and i'm sorry to interject here
i have a question that's slightly off topic and with all of the amazing conversation this might
even sound a little joking or whatever but matt while we have you up here i would like to ask
have you ever participated in any xrpl nfts or meme coins or have even looked at them at all
um i've looked at them a little bit in the in the early days and i've got you know a few of them uh
from uh xrp cafe um from the shrooms project originally i'm not big into nfts um i've mainly got like some i've been given by creators
and stuff but i'm not like some i'm not like personally i'm not into going out buying any
on any network that's just not what i'm particularly interested in but i've i've i've had a few on the
xrp ledger yeah cool man i just wanted to ask while you were up here uh obviously previously working at ripple
whenever uh brad garlinghouse made that announcement in singapore about a xrpl meme
coin it just shot the price up so i wanted to ask you while we had you on the space
but i'm probably going to drop off uh shortly it's like nearly 2am here and I've just been traveling today,
but I just wanted to jump on and chat,
but I'll sound like another 10 minutes if there's any more questions.
And then,
you know,
if anybody has anything specifically want to ask.
I'm Alyssa pixel queen.
I do have a question for you.
First of all,
I wanted to say this space and this lineup was amazing. I've certainly
learned a lot and I've been on it for like 15 minutes, but I am like a core EVM dev.
I built an insurance product that's on Testnet on Ethereum, but I am a lover of XRP and Ethereum.
testnet on Ethereum, but I am a lover of XRP and Ethereum. I've always wanted to ask someone this
question because I could go into tons of stuff about user experience and things like that, but
I just think it's kind of a sexy question, which is like if I wanted to come build another exchange
on XRP with a smart contract contract is that something the programmability
is going to enable me to do or is that something that is possible to do today
so the programmability at the moment as it's being looked at so the initial bit is
is kind of being referred to as programmable escarose. So that's the first sort of stage, as far as I'm aware as a woman,
at Ripple called Mayuka, one of the main engineers at Ripple.
She's been the one that's been leading this.
And I think she refers to it as programmable escarose,
is like the initial step.
And then kind of more general programmability.
She was looking at different runtimes and whether we use, you know,
WASM or, you know, whatever different like sort of bytecode we,
you know, machine we want to use on there.
So at that point, no, you wouldn't really be able to create another
like DEX on there what you would have to do if you wanted
to create a decks a new decks would be you know this this would be like changing the core
functionality of the node so kind of similar to more like a pre-compile that you'd have to get
everybody to agree to and then upgrade the whole network. So in practical senses, no, you couldn't do that
unless you got everybody to agree that your DEX was better, right?
And there's a reason for having it.
But at the moment, just be the built-in DEX.
That's an amazing answer and the most clear thing I've ever heard.
I thought I was rambling a bit, so thank you.
You are a wealth of knowledge.
No, absolutely.
What a wealth of knowledge you've been here, Matt,
and I couldn't thank you enough.
I gave you a big follow.
I'm not going to ask for a follow back
because that's a little weird.
Not a small follow, but a big follow.
It's a big follow.
Just another thing.
Sorry.
Another thing just to point out while we're just talking about DEXs,
just because some people might not be aware about this.
So the original DEX in the XRP ledger is a limit order book exchange, right?
So you actually submit orders to it and say, hey, I want to buy X amount of Ethereum,
and I'm going to pay X amount of US dollars on the DEX, right? So it's not an AMM. It's an actual limit order book DEX, similar to
if you use Binance or Coinbase or whatever and use a centralized exchange. It's a similar kind
of experience. Now, one of the main reasons that is actually possible
on the xrp ledger and was possible was because there isn't um issues with transaction ordering
because remember when i said about the consensus mechanism the main thing it does is it deals with
the transaction ordering in something like ethereum or, you have a particular single entity for each block that determines the block order, right?
The transaction order within the block, right?
So you have front running that can happen, right?
And if you think about most, again, a whole swathe of like class of problems all to do with front running, vampire attacks, MEV on Ethereum, none of that
exists on the XRP ledger because it's just not possible to do that. It's a whole class of
problem that just does not exist. And as a result, you can run a limit order book DEX because somebody
can't front-run you because it's just not possible to front-run transactions because it's not possible
for a single entity to determine the order of transactions on the network
because the transactions are voted on by the nodes on your UNL, right?
So it's effectively, you know, the 35 odd nodes that vote on the order of transactions.
So you couldn't get a single entity say, I'm going to front run you in the same way that you can do on something
like ethereum or or bitcoin or even some of the layer twos um and you know so mev all of that kind
of stuff um just is is is a whole class of problems it just doesn't exist on the xrp ledger
then what came later was amms so amms were an amendment that was then made later on
because of pretty much because of ethereum because ethereum you couldn't put a limit
order book dex in the only way in which you could do an exchange was to use amms and have a you know
a curve and you know do all of that kind of stuff and and so amms became what people thought of when they thought of a dex and then like the
xrp ledger effectively retrofitted that to the xrp ledger so that people could go in and just um you
know deposit into a into an amm and you know an amount of each token and then get some rewards
based upon the you know the the the amm curve within that um so i just thought i'd throw
that in there because people might not be aware of that in terms of like the decks on the xrp ledger
yeah i i was gonna ask somebody so adam's had his hand up for a few few rounds xrpl adam hey yeah i i was just gonna preface this by saying uh matt is an amazing human being
i've known him for several years and he's probably one of the smartest people i know when it comes to
crossover information you know with the whole ethereum ecosystem and the xrpl ecosystem i
i admire all you know everything that he's done and he's he's totally awesome um
my question i guess like revolves around when you say the uh the validators vote on the ordering
of transactions i guess my my is it a misconception because i I, cause I, I guess observed that.
So the, the ordering of transactions within a ledger is ordered by lexic graphic
order based on the hash. So theoretically it's right.
It's possible to essentially let's say mine a transaction hash that is in lexigraphical, like low order,
in order to front run another transaction. Let's say you're looking at the proposed ledger
transactions. And within that two or three second period, you could mine a lexigraphically
low transaction hash to front run somebody else is it that that's possible right
yes and no okay so i simplified things a little bit in my description before
so yes they don't vote on the specific ordering of the validators don't vote on the specific
ordering of the transactions as you said the transactions are ordered based upon the transaction hash.
But I believe that is salted with the hash of the entire block.
So say you get 10 transactions in.
Those 10 transactions each have a hash.
The ordering is salted on the total hash of the transaction so it's it's it's uh stable but
non-deterministic i think is the best way to describe it yeah non-predictable right so you
can't predict it so when i say they vote on the on the ordering what i mean is one validator will
see because it's a three second block time roughly, one validator may see like 100
transactions coming in that block, and another validator might see 101, because there's just
like a slight cutoff period in which one transaction managed to just make it across from,
you know, to one side of the planet, just a, you know, fraction of a second quicker than to the
other side. And so that's where there's a discrepancy there. And so what
happens is all of the validators going, you know, okay, out of the 35 validators that we're listening
to on the UNL, that 34 of them saw, you know, 101 transactions, and the 35th one saw 100
transactions. So it's missing one, right? And the the vote is that actually no there were 101
transactions and the validator that only saw 100 you know they just happened to miss one right
because it didn't manage to get there in time because that node is slightly slow or slightly
geographically further away or whatever it might be um so that's what i'm saying when i've they
vote on the transactions they each validator doesn't say this one's first, this one's second, this one's third.
That's a stable order based upon the hash, but they're voting on which transactions made it into the set.
So this is what I'm saying is in an ideal world, they would all see the same thing anyway, right?
right it's only where you have these edge cases where it just slightly one makes it and one
It's only where you have these edge cases where it just slightly one makes it and one doesn't.
doesn't and uh you then have to say okay well well what let's let's vote on which how many we saw
or what the candidate transaction said is to make sure that everybody has that same
you know ordering hopefully that's clear yeah that that makes a lot more sense um i know like there's been a lot of uh bots kind of working
within the decks and the amm liquidity that will essentially front run certain transactions that
let's say have uh a really bad exchange rate um and i know there's been like some docs proposed to Ripple like early in the days, but obviously that, you know, in order to fix this issue where the lexic than it is to do on Ethereum because it,
it takes a little bit more knowledge to,
in order to mine that transaction passion in order to submit that and
whatever else.
Now,
as far as enumeration goes,
and I just,
this is someone else's question,
which is a very good question.
It's a,
it's an argument that gets brought up a lot.
So he's asking about the missing ledger that everybody brings up in terms of arguing about the Genesis block and all this, right?
Yeah.
It's actually ledger 32570.
Yeah.
Can you tell us why it's like that and it's not in proper enumeration?
Yeah. Yeah, so what happens is in the early days of the XRP ledger, when it was first being developed, right, before it had actually been publicly released, there were a number of times as it was being run in which effectively testnet was being run because there wasn't anything in production.
And occasionally it needed to be reset, right, because there was bugs in whatever was being created. And occasionally it needed to be reset, right? Because there was, you know, bugs in whatever was being created.
And occasionally, it needed to be reset.
Now, so every so often, it would be reset.
So there's never an assumption that it would continue.
Just like if you have, you know, a testnet, you know, on Ethereum, there's never the assumption
that that's going to go on forever right it could be reset at any time um with with with you know uh and and brought back to zero a new test net could be developed
you know released or whatever right so as the xrp ledger is being developed um it was periodically
being reset and the state reset to zero and everybody would kind of start again didn't matter
because it wasn't production right then at some point in time basically it sort of became production and there wasn't really a a uh
okay we're launching this now now remember this was just after bitcoin this was before ethereum
even existed this was the second blockchain nobody even really knew what a blockchain was in the world. And so it was basically at some point in time, they decided, OK, we're effectively promoting the test net to be production. Right. But there was another bug that happened. And some of the early blocks, the headers got corrupted. So the blocks between zero and roughly 32,000,
whatever the exact number was,
I can remember the number you just said,
all of the blocks prior to that,
the block headers were corrupt.
Now, they could have just said,
okay, we're going to restart this again from block zero.
But because there was not that many people using it at the
time the decision was to just continue now putting this in perspective those 32 000 blocks is a three
second block time so i can't remember i worked this out once but it was equivalent to like a
couple of days worth of transactions and because nobody was using it because hey nobody knew what
a blockchain was um there were only i think there's only like
50 accounts on the network at that point on the entire network and there was only something like
300 transactions right so the amount of actual usage when this happened was pretty minimal and
the decision was okay we're just going to continue we're not going to reset again um i think david
schwartz described it as i think they were going to have another reset, but then more people started using it and they just decided to just run
with it. Now, what are the consequences of that? Actually nothing because the XRP ledger is not a
UTXO network. If this was something like Bitcoin, you could say that that could be an issue because
there could be effectively hidden transactions in those missing blocks that could be revealed at some later point.
But the XRP ledger is account-based.
And so each block has the full state of the history of all of the accounts on it.
So the next block after that series of corruption has everything stated in it, right?
after that series of corruption has everything stated in it, right? And the majority of the
funds, if I remember rightly, were all still in basically, you know, one account, the Genesis
account. So there's not, you know, there's only, there was only 70 accounts on there. Not, most of
them had very little in, so there's not actually much that could have happened, right? And the
only thing you would, you were missing is, okay, exactly which accounts paid which accounts,
but you know the outcome of it, right?
That's all still there.
So you can see how much every account had,
and there's no possibility that there's any hidden funds,
missing funds, funds that could be added,
funds that could come about later on.
That's just not possible because all of the funds are there.
They all add up to the total amount.
There's no facility to make any more XRP.
So it's actually a no, it's a complete non-issue, right, in terms of that.
And again, you know, I kept harping on about it before about social consensus.
The decision was to just continue the network, right?
Now, this is not something that's unheard, you know, not unheard of in other networks,
right?
There was the value overflow bug in Bitcoin randomly.
I can't remember what the date was now.
2014, I think it was sometime like that.
Bitcoin just randomly, because of a bug, printed 184 billion btc on the network just suddenly appeared on the
network right um so bitcoin had to be effectively halted forked started again in order to to fix
that right so bitcoins had something similar um obviously ethereum had the dow hack ethereum
ethereum classic so that you know there's been similar kind of situations that have happened on other networks as well.
Ethereum never stopped.
Ethereum never stopped.
No, yeah, right.
The same with the XRP Ledger.
Yeah, so the XRP Ledger never stopped.
They decided to just continue.
Rather than stop it, they decided to continue and just keep going.
So, yeah, so it's the answer is it's a nothing burger.
People like to use it and throw arrows and say it's an issue,
but there's really nothing there.
Yeah, well, the XRPL community is probably one of the most schizo communities
I've met in crypto. There are some absolute insane lunatics in the XRPL community is probably one of the XRP community. You've got a bunch of QAnon people and quantum financial system and like people that have come up with random theories that like everything in the entire world is going to be tokenized on the XRP ledger.
And I'm like, what, like the Air Force's planes?
You're going to what, like throw a token at somebody?
I mean, what are you going to do here right so i will admit there have been there are and there still are some
complete and utter wackos in the xrp community i've got no idea like how that happened they just
decided to choose the xrp community was where they were going to make their home and and settled
there so yeah there's some there's some crazies there.
I think that there's an interesting like case to be made there,
like a study case because like you, you have like on Solana,
you don't really have the schizos. You have like zoomers and drug addicts.
And then on the Ethereum you have like libertarians and whatnot,
and definitely some schizos. And then Bitcoin is like, well,
libertarians of course
and then like vc bros and now trad fi and also some schizos and then xrpl is like my my exposure
to xrpl community has been largely schizos like it's not i i haven't found it super diverse but
of course this is just through the medium of Twitter, right?
Yeah.
But I just find that interesting.
And what I connect it to is the banking cabal conspiracy theory.
So, you know, like the foundation of the Federal Reserve fractional banking system, the Bretton Woods conference, right?
The hoarding of gold, the executive order to take everyone's gold.
And I think that the schizos that were gold bugs before crypto and were gold bugs because they hated the banks moved to XRP.
I think the ones that got into crypto largely moved to XRPL.
And that's why they're all schizo.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, that could well be true and there's there was there was a bunch of guys there that produced a report that they said
that the the the u.s government was going to buy back xrp and pay everybody i mean there's various
amounts they're going to pay it's like 32 000 per token and whatever 50 grand per token it's like
guys you can buy it on the open market for 50 cents now why is somebody going to pay 50 grand per token it's like guys you can buy it on the open market for 50 cents now
why is somebody going to pay 50 grand for it if you really believe somebody's going to pay 50
grand for it tell you what i'll sell some to you for 25 grand bargain right so the there's just
there's a bunch of people that just have a like a basic mental deficiency and for some reason they've
ended up in the xrp community and it's really fucking annoying believe me because there's
people out here there's people like adam that build like great stuff and have to deal with like
absolute nonsense um from some people and it's it's just crazy you know you combine that with
the xrp ledger is the blockchain that people love to hate, right?
And most of it comes out of ignorance and comes out of misinformation.
You know, it's people that say, oh, you know, they can freeze and reverse transactions in whatever.
They can't do, right?
You can't freeze XRP.
You can't reverse transactions on the XRP ledger, right?
You just can't, right?
Functionality just does not exist to do that right well that's
that's why this space was held is just so that we could get some a lot of people who are from more
of ethereum and and or solana right to hear out the the xrpl guys because most of the people we
run into on xrpl are crazy batshit and crazy and they just they cannot have a conversation oh yeah
yeah and it's and it, and it's annoying.
I mean, it annoys the hell out of me because, like you say,
they come up with these weird-ass shit,
and then your impression is, well, XRP must be shit
because there's all these crazies, right?
And it's an unfair characterization of it, unfortunately,
and it's why I'm actually very vocal on twitter
anybody that's known me on twitter i spent a long time fighting fud i have been i i was pretty much
the start of the xrp community on twitter there was like three of us um myself tiff hayden a guy
called xrp trump um like 10 years ago we were we were crypto twitter xrRP. There wasn't an XRP community.
We basically started.
So hence why I'm extra pissed off that there's all these random schizos in there
causing nonsense, right?
Amazing, amazing.
I'm trying to come up with some more questions.
I'm kind of starstruck, man.
Well, Matt, GR, Matt said he did have to leave
like five questions ago. I know, I know.
I don't want to, yeah.
Yeah, I'm going to head off because I've
got to get some sleep, guys. But this has been a
fantastic space. Thank you. And
thanks for organizing it. And thanks for
letting me ramble on so long.
I think we're definitely going to have a round
two. Yeah, Matt, please come back
sometime. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to. Yeah, I'll matt please come back sometime yeah yeah sure yeah i'd love to i'd love to yeah i'll try and come back some time a big follow it
was not a small maybe we can get casey in here gr from the from the ethereum foundation and
i sent invites to david schwartz i sent invites to vitalik you know maybe we can work our way there
so we'll see let's go yeah i think this is a very it's a good space i feel
all all in all it's unifying right i mean especially if we have matt here to kind of like
like lay the law down so to speak but um i mean if we the next time we don't have matt i'm definitely
gonna be sweating and looking at my notes so matt thank you so much for your time um thanks a lot
i don't know how to thank you enough. I give you a big, big follow.
Guys, everybody give Matt a follow.
Put his noties on.
This guy knows what he's talking about.
And again, I'm definitely going to be listening to the recording again.
Great.
Cursed not.
Thanks a lot, all.
Wait, Casey from the Ethereum Foundation showed up.
What the fuck?
No way.
Yeah.
No, he actually, I was joking.
Oh, where is he?
Maybe we can get him for the next one when Matt comes back.
He's in the audience.
K-A-C-I-E, yeah.
K-A-C-I, K-A-C-I, I'm trying to find, I'm trying to find, I'm blind.
K-A-C-I.
And shout out to Lurky, who will wonderfully review this space after the debate is is oh yeah i saw that i got followed by
some weird yellow thing yeah with the one i have yellow thing and look at look at the jumbo okay
or the mega board you want to use my link to sign up for this because this is the future of audiophile
okay and what that is basically is going to get you an airdrop down the line this runs on ethereum
by the way uh through the virtuals protocol.
And they have their own AI agent called Lurky Reverb that does all the lurking on spaces and is able to give you summaries of everything.
Wait, wait.
Is it putting people's words on chain immutably?
No, no, no, no.
Why?
This is like Ido Yaps, but for audio on X spaces specifically.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
I know.
Okay.
There's a cool script
that you can get from github that does this i've been i've been logging all of your conversation
yep it does it automatically i don't even have to be in the space and it doesn't have to be recorded
i'm not looking forward to those receipts in 10 years
i heard my name and apparently there was an XRP
How did you hear your name Casey?
What is this?
Someone pinged the space to me and I just joined
and I heard you say my name and I was like oh hi
Wow that's kind of crazy synchronicity
Yeah this was an Ethereum XRPL debate.
I hope the debate wasn't closed, question mark.
No, no, it's definitely not closed.
Yeah.
There's definitely...
No, no, no, close. I said close, close. Was it like a close debate?
No, I honestly, and it's more of like a cross analysis of the dichotomy of the two rather than an argument as to which one is better.
Ah, okay.
Yeah, I guess the title is more of a clickbait.
Yeah, I mean, I missed it.
Happy to join the next one.
I mean, my personal opinion is I don't, like, think, like,
a permission blockchain for blanks for banks is, like,
comparable to Ethereum or, like, really any layer too.
But happy to talk about that and even do it more
of a debate.
Oh yeah.
I mean, Zodomo was saying earlier that the cost for becoming an Ethereum validator is
going down drastically here into the future.
And right now you can do it for as low as four Ethereum.
Is that true?
And pretty soon you're going to be able to go as low as one Ethereum to become a validator.
And if so, how does that scal scalability work like how does that work um the costs i believe are getting lower
how does the scalability work what do you mean by that yes formal question uh so it scales it scales
harder yeah how does that scale like i mean how are you able to to go from using or requiring 32 Ethereum to now only one or four?
It might be related to blobs.
Are you familiar with blobs?
Yes, it's related to blobs and it's related to ZK.
Zodomo was saying.
Yeah, so basically have its call data instead of hosting it permanently, hosting it on a blob.
It just makes everything quicker.
I'm sure it's related somehow.
But yeah, honestly, I'd be happy to even do my own homework on XRP or any permission blockchain.
And do more readings and then hop on the space next time.
Yeah, that would be amazing.
That would be absolutely amazing.
Let's go.
GR, this is kind of interesting to me with the thing you posted, this tool or whatever.
If someone from there could download this space, run it through an LLM, and then give Casey a summary of points that were made during the debate,
he would have a short sheet, one paragraph summary of what to look for. That would be utility.
If it can do that, then you have something. I'll just listen to this. Sorry, I know you guys are
probably ending the space. I want to let you end, but what was the biggest point on the XRP side?
Just curious. Man, that guy went on for about an hour. Apparently, I met Matt at ETH Denver this year.
I don't remember.
I must have been really high off my rocker.
But I guess the focal point really was more of a technical kind of thing,
looking at how the validators or UNL validators on XRP are compared in contrast to the,
I guess, the way that validated or structured on Ethereum, right?
Yeah.
So the XRP is not trustless, is what it was one of the debates.
XRP is not trustless because it is literally, the UNL is a trustful system.
The UNL is a sheet of trusted validators that you can choose.
You don't have to choose them, but if you don't, then you're not getting XRP.
So it's very centralized in that way. And there were a lot of what I found interesting with blockchain being at the intersection of ideology,
a lot of political ideology and technology, is that one of those is very abstract and one's
very concrete. And I think that people don't always see one in the
other, right? And vice versa. And so Perkat was talking about populism and stuff, and it was going
over some people's heads as to how the validator structure of XRPL could lead towards populism,
which I thought was a really interesting sort of missed point or this, this sort of like miscommunication between Ethereum heads that,
you know, I generally,
my experience understand that this stuff is inherently political and that that
matters. And then the XRPL. Yeah. And then the XRPL guys who are like, well,
it's, it's, you know, it's trust. It's trust. They're throwing around,
they were Casey,
they're throwing around words like trustful and trusted and proof of authority and then like and then like it was like this miscommunication
where the ethereum guys understand those terms differently i guess so it was that's exactly what
it is you know if everyone has a different it's the same word but a different definition and meaning
has a different, it's the same word, but a different definition and meaning.
I think the mental model is so different that they can see it as a problem.
Like, it's like, yeah, of course, like it's a consensus mechanism.
Of course, we just approve each other and just, yeah, it's not centralized.
We're just approving our ideas and we are just excluding the one who just doesn't fit
and i was just saying yeah that's the problem actually this is not decentralized this is
centralized system definition of centralization actually oh the irony i'm curious what were the
people representing east from the ethereum Foundation or not? Actually, no.
I was actually trying to get someone like you.
I think maybe for the next space, it would be amazing if you would...
It was an open discussion space, and it got really serious.
And yeah, everyone just talked and shared their ideas.
We had Zodomo here, Casey, who's a very experienced Ethereum developer and
an Ethereum cypherpunk
who should be in the Ethereum Foundation
but technically he's not. So we didn't
have anyone technically from the Ethereum Foundation.
We had, we had,
what was the name of the guy?
Zodomo?
Is he with the foundation?
No, I said, no, no.
Zodomo or Zodomo. Yeah, he's Omni Foundation. He's he with the foundation? No, I said, no, no. Omni-Funds. Domo or Zoro.
Yeah, he's Omni-Fundation.
He's not with the, that's what I was saying.
He's not with the Ethereum Foundation, but he very well should be.
Yeah, I mean, if they're experienced, they're experienced.
Maybe I'll even just ping it internally and see if anyone's up for it.
I know Benji loves stuff like that.
I think we need, wait, what was the name of the guy that did the octra of space he asked really good questions
to octra people um he's eddie's good friend i can ask him to come he's very technical uh scotty
oh yeah scotty yeah scotty's good scotty is a friend. AC also is quite knowledgeable too,
but maybe, I don't know.
I don't know if he's a dev or not,
but he does know a lot.
He knows a lot.
Yeah.
Scotty is really technical
and that OmniFund guy.
I think we can just invite Scotty next time.
If we could get some good ethereum guys in here that
would be great uh if we could actually get not just matt but some more xrpl bankers in here
i think that would be really interesting yeah because instead of having the ethereum cypher
punks talking to schizo xrpl um i it would be more more of an interesting conversation to have
ethereum cypher punks talking to XRPL bankers.
Yeah, and that really was my intention in the first place.
I want to kind of give a stage for that conversation to take place and roll out.
There was a few people on the XRP side that weren't able to come, actually.
So if I give them more of a heads up next time, I'm sure they'll be able to make it.
Same gives us more time to bring more people from from the east side too and
if you're willing to help me with that xeno if you can line a couple people i can we can bring
bingy too maybe bingy can come too i guess for sure and lurky lurky's got to be there too i can't
see a world without my sweet little lurky. If you have anyone that you want specifically,
maybe even on the protocol side,
I'll ask for you internally.
Yeah.
Please feel free to invite whoever you think would be a great addition.
And yeah, it's just really, you know.
Yeah.
TR, I'll ask Miyamoto.
Because I think Miyamoto knows.
I trust his judgment.
Yeah, I wanted originally to get Vet in here, VetOX.
He's the guy who started XRP Cafe, I think, with Adam and them.
Yeah.
He's very knowledgeable, especially about the technical parts of the validation process.
But yeah, and then towards next time yeah i mean let me i think
miyamoto will is it is like a wealth of of sort of uh with the right people to get because he knows
who's like schizo and who's not um and then we could bomb the space with uh charles we could
bring charles in at the end like towards the end to just like um cardano has solved a blockchain trilemma
no he can tell us about ZKs for sure
he can definitely tell us about
zero knowledge right like that
what's that midnight chain that he
worked on I think it's dropping here in the next
30 days or something like that
it's going live mainnet
anyway I don't know I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and hop but if you need any help getting I think it's dropping here in the next 30 days or something like that. It's going live mainnet.
Anyway, I don't know.
I'm going to go ahead and hop.
But if you need any help getting speakers, just hang on. Oh, I will.
I will.
I saw you follow me.
I gave you follow back.
I'll definitely tap into the DMs with you.
And then we can plan accordingly for like a really good space.
I think it's actually a great idea to keep this going.
I love this one.
Because usually the majority of my spaces are kind of DJ-y and chaotic.
We do like that crazy stuff.
But this is kind of a refreshing turn of things.
Yeah, I mean.
I'll give all of you guys a follow-up, actually.
Okay, I'll see you guys later.
I'll see you guys later.
Awesome, man.
Awesome, man.
Hey, guys.
Hey,
hey,
thank you.
Ciao.
Ciao.
Ciao.
The Ethereum Foundation
is trying to do more
outreach
because people are dying
in these streets.
I didn't.
We got to pick people up
on the streets.
I'm just kidding.
Hello, guys.
Oh, my God. Blacklisted. Hello, guys. Oh, my God.
Lurky app is back.
Let me know.
How are you?
Oh, my God.
Welcome.
I think it's a – I just want to say hi to everyone.
And I did experiments with Lurky.app with, unfortunately,
Ben.Soul now is like rap bro that i don't know
what the fuck he is but um the referral link code i don't know how he did it but i was i was just
trying and create the narrative for lurk and uh people like ben um are if people like Ben
going into the community and taking advantage
from other people's unique
narratives, like for example
like if they
I'm a Schizzo Yopie Corporation office girl
we have a huge
narrative going on and it's
not just a cult, it's just
a movement we say
and we say we don't follow the narrative, we create the narrative.
And so I just try to, you know, experiment my own creative skills.
And here we go, I'm still, I have 111 points, which is where I started from.
Because Ben.Soul happened to have this referral link given to me.
And all the lurk points was going to him.
So there's a lot, a lot of glitches into.
Momo, I think that's just the structure of the, what do you call it?
Referral program.
Yeah.
Right. So Ben's right so so ben's not
like he's not stealing from people he's just doing the referral thing yeah so with the the
multiplier it's it's based on what quality a person you bring in so if somebody uses your
referral link we do kind of like a quality check on you and see like what your kind of status is and the higher your kind of
pull is the multiplier is um and then it adds on to each other so the more that you bring in
it'll start stacking up with each other stackable um and so it's just an incentive to get people to
use the referral stuff uh how you earn points right now is by talking about lurky so we have
a campaign there's like a whole area there that
kind of tells you the parameters of what to say um and kind of go off of but um yeah that's how
you earn points right now is lurky lurky can i just uh really quick uh since you're here ben gave
me the link to use your your platform and uh i i i you know i was going to do it um uh because i love ben and he and he's and
he's he's he could use the money um but i i know i i noticed that you guys ask for our our uh twitter
email address when signing up through privy or whatever service that is. Can you remove that?
Or is that necessary?
I'll look into it.
We actually dropped Privy this past week.
It was too expensive.
So maybe check it out.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah, I'll look into it.
I just, I really don't let, I don't, I mean,
Uniswap tried to do that to me, to my ex. And I just don't let i don't i mean uniswap tried to try to do that to me to my at my ex um and i i just don't you know i would never give out my email address to my twitter account that's just
such a bad that's a horrible obsec move that's like one half of what they need to hack your
account um well one third but still it's still one third i think it's um i think it's basically lurking is just creating a culture for that specific brand.
And like, for example, Schisopie Corporations and Redacted are, you know, multicultural lurking space.
Like it's a lurk space, but it's not like we are being created.
We're creating content as we speak together we're improvising and
after that session we have a whole new story behind and then and then and then and then and
then it becomes a culture so I in lurky app it's like an application that you're lurking your own project?
Or how do you gain points?
What is it?
Because, like, my culture is totally deejined.
We're totally, like, chopping people's heads off.
And with the blood, I make Bloody Mary every day.
I don't drink tomato juice.
So with my narrative,
we're actually tagging people.
So we're doing personas here soon.
So everybody's going to have their own persona.
Yes, based on their patterns that we have cataloged.
So soon we'll be having personas
and then it'll be tagged to you.
So if you are degenerate,
it'll be like Momo and then your tag would be like degenerate,
you know,
or it'd be like,
you know,
the guy I just spoke on here,
maybe,
more technical,
you know,
more about,
you know,
how blockchains work,
you know,
those types of things.
Do you guys have a tag for batshit crazy?
We can.
Okay.
Hell yeah. We can. I mean, we can hell yeah we can
I mean if you tell us
we've been asked from like all different angles
so we've been saying like okay
I want to source out all of the people that speak
degenerately
and like casinos want to
come to us asking for like
speaking degenerately who's talking about gambling, those types of things.
And so it's more, you know, pinpointing them to the right hosts so they can, like, you know, monetize and help host that with tooling and stuff like that.
I was thinking of using this as an internal tool.
I am a little bit salty that you guys made it publicly accessible.
accessible. I'm just gonna
I'm just going to admit.
admit, I thought I found
I thought I found, like, gold.
gold, and once I set it up and saw
that the script worked,
I was like, alright, this is gonna be an internal
tool for fucking
rad bros. And then
you guys came out with this shit, and I was like,
oh, fucking A, man.
Can't have anything nice to myself.
Yeah, no, we didn't copy any code. Everything's
Yeah, no, we didn't copy any code.
Everything's in-house.
in-house, so good luck.
So good luck.
How do you guys choose?
Do people have the power to choose?
Is there any competition?
Is there any lurking marathon going on?
I don't know.
I'm just thinking out loud.
Yeah, so we're testing out different algos since kind of like what you said before like we we don't want
to chase narratives we want to create our own narrative and that's what audiophile is it's a
brand new genre and so what we've been doing is testing different things out uh with with like
campaigns and so there's two ways you can earn one is by talking about lurky um that's how you can
earn points or two
uh we just opened up one with virtuals so if you're mentioning like virtuals agents or anything
on ethereum that kind of style you can earn points and later on this week we'll probably
be dropping more ways to earn so we're going to start opening it up so the more ethereum that i
talk about like if i talk about erc20 for like 15 minutes, I'm going to get more lurk points.
If it's around virtuals too.
So if you talk about what it is, and I kind of go through the documents, the idea is to educate people, but also learn about how people are pitching products.
If somebody can't look at your information and see, you know,
explain to somebody quickly, there's something wrong on that pipeline.
I see.
Because like we are really niche.
Like we are non-diagnosable.
Like we went to a couple of schizo psychiatrists and they couldn't
really define us. So, uh, we only have schizo nurse. His name's placebo and, um, we can do
the placebo effect. He knows, like he knows, he knows he he's the placebo. We have the powder too.
We have the powder too.
We have like, I mean, we have, yeah, we have angel dust too.
So, I mean, we can put into hallucinogenic mode.
I couldn't say it.
I'm sorry, I'm Turkish.
Hallucinogenic mode.
How do you say it?
Hallucinogenic.
Can you say it again?
Hallucinogenic. Hallucinogenic mode. How do you say it? Hallucinogenic. Can you say it again? Hallucinogenic.
Hallucinogenic mode.
I can do it.
I can just do it by talking about the highest priest and then...
Spaces interlinked.
Oh, great.
Yeah.
Interconnectedness is what I want.
One second.
Let's go over to Victus. He's got his hand up. I'm over to victus he's got his hand up i'm
curious to see what he's got to share whether it's a question or something victus go ahead
maybe he just forgot he had the hand up no worries um i think you guys are
what do you guys think are where do we go from here i think this is a good uh we're
we're gonna end it on a good note.
This was a solid space.
I feel like I definitely want to be in another space after this.
So I think I might be going to Candy's space.
I have it pinned up top if you guys are interested.
Give her a follow.
She's a big part of the community.
And shoot, man, what else?
Did we miss anything?
Did we miss anything?
Cult? Yeah, Cult Rising.
Meow, meow, meow.
Meow, meow, meow. Yeah, I think that's it.
Meow.
Yeah, solid. This was needed.
Much needed. Cupid, we addressed your missing ledger question there.
So if you want to listen back to the space, you can check it out.
Very interesting stuff.
Yeah, dude, I learned a lot.
I'm definitely going to, I can't wait to read the report on Lurkey on this.
And Lurkey, is there anything we need to know about the upcoming campaign?
Is there anything to look forward to?
There's some lot of stuff going on underneath the hood.
Something that we're kind of working on right now is clipping.
So at the end of the space, you can go to report,
and there'll be like preset clips that we think that are quality
that you may like to share them, customize them.
So like, for example, if TR is sharing something,
it would like, you know, be branded towards TR.
And then whoever's speaking,
we would have the key to know exactly who's who.
So that's with the speaker mapping.
So yeah, we're coming out with that soon.
And then you'll be able to customize it yourself.
So if you don't like the preset ones,
you can go and clip it yourself.
Nice. i like that
clips for for voice clips that's actually kind of cool um cool uh what about the virtuals protocol
campaign that's yet to launch right we haven't started that's live that's live now it's been
going for like three days i think um and then we're going to be opening up to other partners
here soon inside of
virtual so right now phase one is basically just teaching people about what virtuals is and what
they do and we're trying to accomplish and yeah phase two is going to be like uh opening up to
like six different uh different projects you can learn about and talk about and earn yeah i like
that so i guess i could take a moment here to tell you guys about virtual's protocol. It's a, what is it? How can I best describe it? It's a society of AI agents,
right? That operate autonomously and independently, and they have their own ecosystem.
Yeah. So there's, I think there's two different layers to it. One is like the
launch pad route. So it's a way for companies to launch currencies and their agents to get capital and start their token.
One of the biggest things is their ACP.
So basically all of these agents that launch underneath them have the way to connect to each other.
So say if somebody focuses on pharmaceuticals and then somebody focuses on something else,
the agents are able to interact with each other a lot more easier with endpoints.
Amazing.
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
You guys got coding it.
Coding Lurkey?
Yeah.
Who's your programmer?
Yeah, so we have three programmers.
We're in the sixth.
One of them's in here, I believe, Clipart.
I think he's in here somewhere.
He's listening in to us.
I'm going to steal these niggas.
We have two others.
One's Tazro, another one's Feed Your Addiction.
Those are our three devs.
So what is Virtuals Protocol?
Virtuals Protocol is an AI agent economy on the blockchain, on the Ethereum blockchain, where you can create AI agents, whether they're social influencers, gaming characters, or crypto analysts, or whatever you want to make them do.
They all act, learn, and generate revenue autonomously, right?
act learn and generate revenue autonomously right and they're tokenized so you can own a portion of
And they're tokenized.
them by uh transacting on the virtuals network uh when you launch an ai agent through virtuals
each ai agent gets a token and it's uh set to a 1 billion supply which you can buy and trade right
and own a piece of and um it's built in is i don't correct me if i'm wrong but it's built on the game framework
which stands for generator generative autonomous multimodal entities is that correct yeah so um
you can build your own they have kind of preset ones if you want to use um game helps you like
you know it's just like a preset framework um and that's what how you can launch like automated agents on twitter and all the all these ai agents uh coins are sitting on a bonding curve
right on the virtuals network yeah it's kind of like pump fun where there's a bonding curve if
it doesn't bond then you know it kind of dies out and uh in order to participate into any of these
agents you guys you can buy virtual tokens and you pay,
I think it's a minimum. Is there a minimum? I'm not exactly sure, but you pay a hundred
virtual tokens. Yeah. So it's more a more curated launch. So whereas PumpFun, anybody can participate,
this is more of a closed loop. And I think that's more to get to like get more like holders rather than like traders in. And so what you do is you have virtuals and then if you interact with the ecosystem, you earn these things called Vergan points.
And basically when a new company comes live, you can pledge your Vergan points.
And that basically allows you to get on the white list for you to purchase that token at launch if you'd like.
So it's like more of a curated launchpad, I would say.
And does holding virtual allow you to vote on the protocol
or participate in any sort of governance?
Yeah, exactly.
Well, if you stake, you get virtual, which is no escrow.
So, yes.
So is the staking for this directly available on the Lurkey
site or somewhere near there?
You go to their dashboard.
So it's just virtual as the
IO or virtual.
Sorry for all the questions. I don't mean to make it sound redundant,
but it's more for the space.
Yeah, no, no. It's important.
But yeah, they have... I was going to say, is your audience
fucking retarded, GR? You go to the website,
you find the staking banner.
We'll probably have a way on our platform to stake somewhere. But yeah, with any of their agents, it's mainly that centralized hub for all the DeFi stuff.
This is all on base, if I remember correctly, right?
Yeah, yes, base, and I think Stellana,
and maybe some other chains they're opening up to eventually, I'm imagining.
Beautiful.
Amazing, amazing tech, man.
I really love what you guys have built so far,
and I love earning the points.
They're delicious.
I need more Lurkey points.
Lurkey, Lurkey, Lurkey.
I think I'm out of questions, man.
I think that's it, man.
I'm like, does anybody have any questions for Lurkey?
Hell yeah, dude.
I know.
Yeah, exactly.
I was literally about to say, let's give him a knife.
Oh, man.
I feel like it's going to be like everybody's gonna manipulate each other like the
what they used to call like what they used to call unfortunately uh okay emotional uh
bankruptcy that's what's gonna happen because that's what i got like it's not i don't yeah
let's see no totally emotional bankruptcy bankruptcy is what I call lurking.
Yeah, lurking.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
We're so done.
We're screwed.
Lurky, so I was wrong.
It wasn't privy.
I was actually using your current service, api.x.com.
As soon as you guys take out the see your email address, I'll sign up.
But I can't sign up with that feature or whatever,
that request in there, and I can't recommend it to other m'ladies while that
request is in there.
Noted, I'll talk to Dave.
I'm sure it was just an oversight. I very much doubt that it's required for your service to work,
which would be, of course, the only reason that it would have to be kept on.
Yeah, I don't think you don't really need that, right?
So I don't even look at exactly what the permissions are,
but yeah, I'll definitely ask the dev in the morning.
I was really surprised when Uniswap required that.
I think they used actually the same API.x thing.
What kind of fucking Ethereum protocol are you
that you're asking for people's private Twitter email?
They also just blacklisted people I saw.
Yeah.
Bro.
Someone needs to bomb them in a video game
and maybe not in a video game.
Oh, so are all of my
bomb threats now going to be recorded?
Yeah, welcome to Lurkey, the decentralized
open source mass surveillance
system.
I don't even know how to respond.
Well, at least Lurkey makes it so that Twitter's not the only person that's able to record me.
Yeah, Lurkey, you're going to have to censor some stuff.
I mean, I don't know.
No, no, no, no, no.
It's a joke.
I know, I know.
Obviously not.
Don't do that.
I almost lost my shit.
Well,
I can definitely see this space
spiraling down into the chaos that we're
used to. So on a good note, I want to
end this. We had a productive space.
I did this. I mean, we did this, right?
We were able to have a space that was
productive, constructive,
educational even.
And wow, that's amazing.
I'm proud of you guys.
I'm proud of everybody in here.
Thank you guys for making this such an amazing experience.
Get ready for the, I guess it's not really a debate.
We're going to have to come up with a new term, but round two is coming.
Ethereum versus XRP, ding, ding, ding.
It was definitely a debate and debates are beautiful.
It was a Socratic debate. And debates are beautiful. It was a Socratic debate.
We used the Socratic method to achieve Gnosis in some state or form or other.
Amazing, guys.
What else?
Let me hold some.
Use my Lurky link.
Go to Candy Space after this.
Give Zeno a follow. Give Lur Space after this. Give Zeno a follow.
Give Lurky a follow.
Give Perket a follow.
And follow all the speakers on the panel.
Milady World Order.
Milady Noir on XRP Cafe is the number one collection.
Milady.
It will soon take over.
There is nothing you can do about it.
Join us or suck him to the fate of being sidelined.
Milady.
Milady.
Thank you. M'lady.
